The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Radley Balko

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand are joined by journalist, Radley Balko. Balko is the author of two books and has received numerous honors and awards for his work.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and available as a podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This is Dan Natterman, host of the Live from the Table with co-host Noam Dorman, the owner of the world-famous, ever-expanding, ever-ascendant, they say that everything that goes up must come down. The question is when in the case of the comedy seller. I don't think any time soon.

Noam Dorman. Everybody is with us. And Perrielle Ashenbrand. I don't know if she's officially a co-host, but she's certainly not shy about participating in the podcast. She is officially the producer and the booker,

but she does have a role to play on air as well. Perrielle, how do you do? And we have with us, of course, Nicole Lyons, who plays mostly a behind-the-scenes role, but every now and again we'll ask her a question when we want the Gen Z perspective on things. Noam, I noticed that unless you have something you wish to say, I just wanted to say that I noticed that the new website is up and live.

It's still being populated with photos and stuff. Okay, well, it's up. It's not completely up, but it's mostly up, and it looks good. I've seen it anyway, so it's no surprise. But it is a lovely website, and I don't, you know, from a strictly bottom line point of view, I don't know that it will increase revenue, but you know, I don't know. Will it, any thoughts, a beautiful new website,

will it increase revenue or is it just that you enjoy having a beautiful new website? It will not increase revenue. Okay. Okay. A short answer Okay, short answer. A short answer, but I don't know if you'd like to elaborate, but there's nothing more to say about it. What would increase revenue a hell of a lot would be to raise prices, which is something that everybody's doing.

And I know that I think the stand, I think when all is said and done, is charging $10 more. We charge $25 on a Saturday night. I think they're charging $35 between their cover and their ticket fee. These ticket fees are whatever. But anyway, that's a huge difference. That's almost a 50% difference.

Well, are your expenses getting higher? Yeah, everything... Well, I mean, your expenses are getting higher, and it's, I mean, it's not unreasonable to raise prices. And I would add, and you know exactly what I'm going to say, that comedians, you know, we have more expenses too, and perhaps... But you're already making more than other clubs pay. I agree with you.

I agree. That's actually – That's the main reason why you're thinking of it. That's one of the reasons that I feel that I might want to do it. But the flip side is I think it's a lot. I think 25 is – I know 25 is not quite what 25 was two years ago, depending on what you're spending your money on.

But $25 is still a hell, I think it's a significant plus straight, it's a significant money to spend on a night out. Maybe I'm just out of touch. Maybe you can raise the drink prices. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if that I mean, that's a little bit less obvious. Yeah, but I don't know. Is $25? I really have no idea. I don't know if that – I mean, that's a little bit less obvious. Yeah, but I don't know.

Is $25 – I really have no idea. I don't go out. I mean, you know, I perform at places. I don't go to them. So I just don't know what $25 – Well, I put it another way. I think $35 –

I don't even go to the movies anymore. $35 seems like a lot of money. Plus a two-week minimum. What about $30? What about $28? There Plus a two-week minimum. What about 30? What about 28? There's a number. You know that taxi episode? There's a number.

Right. 28, which would still be, you know. Is there a way that we can all win, where you can make a little bit more and the comics can make a little bit more? That's the thing. If I raise it to 28 and then I raise the comedian pay, it's a wash for you.

It would probably be a wash or close to a wash. I don't know. I got to sharpen a pencil. If your expenses are going up irrespective of the comedian pay, it's hardly an unreasonable thing that we live in an inflationary time. Well, let me ask you this. I mean – I just wanted to comment on Dan's economic illiteracy for a second, but go ahead. Oh, well, please do, because I'm happy to learn.

You don't raise prices because your expenses go up. You raise prices because you can get it. Okay. But I'm saying from the point of view of you feeling like you're being a schnor, you're being greedy. Yes, yes. That is relevant in that way that in that way on a saturday night we're turning away seven eight

ten thousand people turning away it so any oh yeah you a hundred i mean according to that logic you a hundred percent should raise your price but no if i may if i may uh address this gnome is part of the if it ain't broke, don't fix it school, and he doesn't want to jinx like all of a sudden people think he's greedy and they stop coming, right? You don't want people to think you're greedy. I mean, I don't think people are thinking about Noam and whether or not he's being greedy when they're planning their Saturday nights out. So what is it? I'll tell you exactly what it is.

We could get it for sure. We could get it and you could do the math. It's a lot of money. A lot of money. But now they're paying $35. And then after they see the show they're going to decide whether they

felt they got their money's worth. And I don't know if they'll feel that they got their money's worth on an average show. Sure, it was one of those nights when magic happens and it's just banging, fantastic, belly laughs all night long. Which happens 50% of the time. But the other 50% of the time, the shows are just regularly, they're all good, but you know what I mean? Just like it's a good show. But $35 is, the number of people we turn away

is not going to change that calculation of the people who get in and spend that money and whether they think it was worth it in terms of how they feel about their purchase. And I just feel like $35, I'm $25, maybe $28. $30. $30 might be the number.

I don't know. $32. $31. $72. But also, do people view $30 the same way they viewed $30 five years ago, before prices went up with everything? Yeah, I think so. In their internal calculations,

I'm already used to everything. Yeah, I think they might in their in their internal calculations that 30, you know, like I'm already used to kind of like everything being higher. So I don't it doesn't shock me. I mean, people are paying 20, 20, 25 dollars to get

into like random shows all over the place. So to pay 30. I did notice something. This is sort of related as you like old people get cheap. But I noticed like, you know, my of related. Like old people get cheap.

But I noticed like my whole life, first of all, I remember when I was younger, leaving a dollar tip for the people who did 50 cent tips. Like in tax year, a dollar was a good tip, right? And hey, we're on Bradley. One second. And then now a dollar, probably $3 is probably a fair tip for a garage attendant, right? At least. At least.

But I'm saying like $3 is probably what a dollar was 20 years ago or something, 25 years ago. But when you grow up in it, you still get attached to everything. You get attached to the music. There's a certain time where the dollar still feels – you don't have – it's not easy to recalculate your just psychological impression of what a dollar is. It's caught up sometime. It's sometime in your past. So I have to force myself to make sure – I always want to be a good tipper. But I'm still like $3.

That's a big tip, right? But I know it's not a big tip. But like a quarter. When I was a kid, a quarter. Yeah, right? But I know it's not a big tip. But like a quarter. When I was a kid, a quarter. Yeah, but I don't know that that's related to this price thing. I probably don't understand what $30 is anymore. $30 to a 25-year-old is probably nothing. And I'm just perseverating over nothing. I feel like I sort of do adjust my view of what a dollar means.

But in any case, Radley Prescott Balco is with us. How do you do, Rad? Prescott. Well, that's what I have here on Wikipedia. He's an American journalist, author, blogger, and speaker who writes about criminal justice, the drug war, and civil liberties. All topics that we – that's probably why you're here because these are all topics that we have addressed more than once on this podcast. How do you do, Radley? Thanks for having me on.

Haven't heard anyone use my middle name in a long time. Turn him up if you can, Nicole. Anyway, Noam, I'm excited to have you on. I know he has a lot of questions for you. Well, you came to my attention. I think Tyler Cowen kind of plugged your substack when you started. Were you aware of that? I wasn't, but I've known Tyler's work for a long time.

I think I met him a few times when I lived in D.C., but that's nice to hear. It's flattering. So he's a friend of the seller, and, I mean, anybody who knows Tyler or knows of him knows, like, you know, that you don't get a more substantial intellect and thoughtful person than him. So when he recommends somebody, I say, well, I need to check this guy out. And I read yourself, and you've taken a big interest in criminal justice and stuff. But about a month ago, you had a column about the supposed, purported shoplifting epidemic in California. And it was

counterintuitive to me. And I want you to tell us about it, although I'm not going to read it to you now, but just to tell you that just before we started the show, I got a text message from a friend of mine who works

in the California prosecution office, in the DA's office there. And he offered a perspective which you're going to find interesting as well. But go ahead. Tell us what what what your point was about that. Well, I mean, the specific column you're talking about was just an attempt to kind of set the record straight. I think we've heard from a lot of kind of right-leaning people and some kind of mainstream podcasters that there's this epidemic of shoplifting in California and that this can all be traced back to this law passed, and I think it was 2016, that essentially legalized shoplifting in the state as long as it was under, you know, $950. And that actually isn't what the law did. What the law did do was it increased the minimum

amount of merchandise you had to steal to be charged with a felony to $950, which that was that amount had not changed in about 30 years. And so it was basically just sort of bringing the law. You were just talking about the kind of our conversation, right? Right, exactly. So sort of keeping it up with the cost of living. And then I was sort of intrigued by, you know, a lot of people were saying that this law was why we were seeing this, this epidemic of shoplifting. So I just started looking at other states. And in fact, Californiaia's 950 limit is actually uh pretty low and in fact a lot of um you know deep red states and places that were where you have politicians who were you know decrying the uh you know the liberal shoplifting policies in california actually have

higher minimums like texas um i think texas is pretty high um i want to say south carolina i had a big list in the column, but a number of surprising states had an even higher minimum. The other thing is, even if it's below that amount, you can still be charged with a misdemeanor. You can still be jailed for up to a year. So there's just a lot of misinformation out there. I think as for the shoplifting, whether or not shoplifting is up or down in California, there's a lot of kind of conflicting information out there, too. The Atlantic had a really good kind of nuanced piece on this looking into this claim.

You know, certainly we've seen more shoplifting, I think, since the pandemic started. And there are a lot of sort of social reasons for that, economic reasons for that. I'm not convinced that we're seeing so much more of it in California because you have liberal district attorneys or liberal policies. I think there's a lot of things that are happening in California. But, for example, a lot of the drug stores that were closing, there was a claim that they were closing because they were losing so much money from shoplifting. And, in fact, Walgreens and CVS had both announced plans to close a number of stores in San Francisco well before any of this. But, you know, as if you're a retailer, there is, you know, a reason for you to, you know, they don't like this law because it does, you know, make it more difficult to prosecute people for felonies for more low-level shoplifting. And they, it's in their interest to sort of make things seem as scary as they possibly can be.

So I think I'm not trying to say that there hasn't been an increase in shoplifting. There almost certainly has. I think the reasons for it are mixed and varied. I don't think that it's as easy as Chase Abudin and these Soros-funded prosecutors are refusing to prosecute shoplifters. What about, Yannis, speaking of drugstores, now when I go to the drugstore, many of the products are behind a plastic, like, wall. And you have to press that button. It says, you know, customer service needed in family planning. And then they come over and unlock it and you take out the condoms.

And I suppose you could still shoplift them, but I guess maybe they have their eye on you because they know you have the – like if they see you walk out, you know what I mean? Like once I grab the product, I could still walk out with it and not pay, but I guess they kind of see you. So maybe – I don't know. But whatever. If they size you up when they see who's asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I also think if you're trying to shoplift, you're trying to sort of escape the notice of the staff. So if you have to actually contact them to open it up, you know,

it's that's seen as a deterrent. And, you know, we are seeing more stuff get locked up. I think there are, you know, reasons for that. I mean, a lot of stores have now instructed their security people to not confront shoplifters when they see it. And that's for liability reasons, both for so they don't get sued, but also so the security guard doesn't get doesn't sue or get hurt. And, you know, that's that's a policy that's up to them. And, you know, they should make whatever policy works for them.

But if you're not detaining people and then you call the police to report the shoplifting, you know, they have a far smaller chance of catching the person. Right. Then if you're security detail or security people had actually detained them. Are you legally allowed to hold them in place? Legally, well, it depends on the state, but in a lot of places you could sort of hold them in place. Of course, a lot of retailers hire off-duty police officers who also have even more authority to hold people in place to detain them.

So let me ask you a few questions in no particular order. First of all, I have a kind of theory that, well, let me say something else first. I appreciate your kind of like poking holes. I generally am on the other side of this issue for you than you are. But I think that in general, when one of these positions becomes like a conventional wisdom of the left or the right, if you bet your money on discounting it by 25, 30%, you will almost always be right. Everybody always spins their own position

a little bit more than is really credible. So I think that there is something to what's going on here. But I think you're probably also right that it's being oversold. But I also think when you see these viral videos that were that people were sharing when the Chesa Boudin recall was happening, you know, some of those videos happened before he took office. Some of them were and you know, I don't I don't agree with him on everything, but some of them were, um, people who were actually were being prosecuted at the time, but they were sort of being presented as it was like, you know, it's this free for all in San Francisco and you can do whatever you want. Um, and you know, there wasn't

context with the video. A lot of them. Let me give you my other theory. Sure. If you know anything about it, nobody carries cash anymore. Nobody I know carries cash anymore. i know carries cash anymore and i don't quite know how this has rippled into the crime statistics but it has to have in some way so for instance not that long ago taxis were just walking crime you know driving crime scenes with with no witnesses and a bag of cash and and and if you saw a well-to-do looking person on the street, that was a logical person to rob because, of course, now it's almost the opposite. The more well-to-do he is,

the less likely he is to be carrying any cash at all. So, maybe that shunts criminals into shoplifting because they no longer can... Who do they rob anymore to get the money? Then they would go and buy stuff, right? Is that possible?

I think it's a very interesting theory. I think it's definitely possible. That makes a lot of sense. I also think, you know, you've got people who are shoplifting out of necessity because, you know, a lot of people were out of work over the last three years. But you also had an increase in black market, these sort of shoplifting rings where you had, you know, people are reselling this stuff on Amazon or eBay or some sort of darker market sites. And the cause for that is a lot more mysterious. I haven't read any good theories as to why these markets have been able to thrive. I can tell you that while, you know, some of these sort of more progressive prosecutors, you know, have decided to not charge people for, you know, stealing essentials sometimes.

And you can agree or disagree with that. They are. They do try to go after these rings. I mean, they haven't been leaving these rings alone. But I think it's interesting. I'm not really sure what's driving that. But there does seem to be a significant increase in that sort of shoplifting. One thing you wrote, which I kind of took issue with, is that I just lost the thing. Hold on. Fine. Take me a second. I'm trying not to panic when I have to look something up like I used to. I'm just trying to be more relaxed in general about the way I am on the air, as it were, because I hear myself back.

I say, just chill out, Dorman. Okay. Well, because you're self-conscious that I'm rushing you, but that's in your head. No, but yes, but it's not just that. I'm not going to put it all on you. You said in reference to the effect of liberalizing – well, read two paragraphs. So what, you might be asking.

California still more than doubled the minimum amount you need to steal to be charged with a felony. They still liberalized the law. Wouldn't that cause an increase in theft-related crimes? Unclear. And I say it that way because it's an exclamation point. Unclear. One study found that the law may have contributed to a rise in car break-ins and grand larceny. And this is the part that I'm warning you about. But the same study found

that it likely reduced recidivism rates. But anytime you make something harder to be criminal, don't you reduce recidivism rates? I mean, that's almost tautological, right? Well, it reduced- Eliminate shopping altogether, then you'd have no recidivism. Right. Well, recidivism is – so you have to have the initial because being charged with a felony, even charged, convicted obviously even worse. But when you're charged with a felony, you are held in jail, a lot of times pending trials, particularly if you can't make bail. You could lose your housing.

You could lose your job. You could lose custody of your kids, and it removes sort of the ability of people to bounce back from these types of crimes. So they end up committing more crimes when they get out. So it may be a little bit counterintuitive, I guess, but if you can get somebody, charge somebody with a misdemeanor, get them into some sort of diversion program so that they can sort of remain on their feet, they're much less likely to commit future crimes. So that's kind of what I was getting at there. Okay, I see. So I understand. So let me read you something I got from a friend. Now, I know you're very interested in this stuff. And off the air, maybe if you're interested, I'd put you in touch with my friend who's in the DA's office, because I will vouch

for him as a good hearted, very, very smart guy. And he knows a lot of this stuff on the ground. But anyway, he says, I sent him your article and I said, you know, what do you think? And he circled many also,

he circled this part of your article. Many also have exceptions. In most states, for example, you can be charged with felony theft while still under the threshold if you have prior convictions. And in Texas, you can still be charged with felony theft while still under the threshold if you have prior convictions. And in Texas, you can still be charged with a felony for stealing less than, I think it's $2,500. So he writes, and I think you're going to agree with this, actually.

The increase in dollar amount you can steal to be charged with a felony is a complete red herring and is often incorrectly cited as the cause for the theft epidemic. The point is that the reporter referred to as the point that the reporter referred to the reporter's view as a nuisance is the crux of the insane change made by Proposition 47. California eliminated the felony crime of petty theft with a prior. This means you can get convicted of a misdemeanor theft with minimal consequences an infinite number of times and never ever face a felony charge with prison consequences i've already given oh there's something else yeah so that's that's it so and i think this is what's very very different than texas there's no you know you can just keep doing it over and over and over where i think and i was doing some reading before

you came on i think in texas they're just a little more serious about prosecuting these low-level misdemeanors. A lot of these misdemeanors have a possible one year in prison. And I think in Texas, it's not out of the question that you might do some jail time for a misdemeanor, where in California, it seems like they won't even bother prosecuting the misdemeanor, let alone even imposing the fine. So I don't know that. I mean, that's a fair criticism. I think if you, you know, we need to ask sort of what crimes do we think people should be locked up for? And, you know, I think I would argue that even sort of repeated thefts of small amounts, you know, again, when we're talking about these sort of theft rings or people who have these organized shoplifting systems where they're now selling this stuff online, you can find ways to charge those people with felonies. But if somebody's stealing packs of, I guess it's difficult to steal cigarettes these days, but you're stealing sort of small items. I'm hesitant to lock those people up, not just because it's bad sort of for them, but because it doesn't, the studies I've read show that it doesn't really do much to keep us safe. It doesn't stop them necessarily from shoplifting. uh you know charging them with a felony can make them uh go on to commit more serious crimes so i i agree with you but i made a point last week in a different context and it reminds me of this you know businesses die uh it's death by a thousand

cuts no one shoplifted item matters but the sum total of all the shoplifting and these businesses survive on very, very tight margins. I mean, very tight margins can make it impossible to operate your business. But the logic of death by a thousand cuts is that if you would react to any one cut appropriately as one cut, you will underreact and die. You have to treat the individual cut as part of the thousand and react to it. Otherwise, you can't save your own life. Now, nobody wants to see somebody in prison for a low-level shoplifting, let alone for low-level shoplifting for some necessity of life, right? On the other hand, how do we have a civilized society? Businesses need to be run. They need to pay their employees. With shoplifting comes crime and tussles. And I mean, you know, I have a business that has a different type of interchange with

low-level criminality, but it's scary, and the people we deal with are scary, and every interaction between someone who works for me and somebody who I'm sure is also the type of person who is shoplifting, you don't know what it's going to lead to. What are you referring to specifically? Criminality at the comedy cellar?

I'm talking about aggressive panhandling. Okay. Nobody wants to see somebody in jail for panhandling, for goodness sake. You mean like outside the club? Yeah, yeah, things like that. I would imagine, as Kamala Harris, the Venn diagrams, there's an overlap between aggressive panhandlers and the kind of people who would rob stuff in a store, right? I don't want to see any of these people in prison. And we can actually use that as a jumping off point also to the total failure to handle mental illness in a humane way.

But depending on which end of the telescope you look at this problem, you have to have a solution. You have to have a solution. People have a right to live in a civilized way. Well, what do you do with the aggressive panhandlers outside the club? I guess you're worried that they're scaring off the customers. Well, no. We just had a meeting about this. I'm worried that in the responsible exchange between someone who works for me

and these aggressive panhandlers or aggressive drug dealers who are to try to protect our customers from them it can quickly escalate the person who works for me has human weaknesses and gets angry and next thing you know a fight starts and then he's he's convicted of or arrested for assault and somebody gets hurt and the worst case scenario is that in that tussle a third party innocent bystander gets hurt. Then my insurance gets dropped. Like the butterfly effect of these little things is scary. And this is enough for Walmart to say, fuck this.

We don't need this mess anymore. You think it's just panhandling? Every one of these panhandling events could lead to a disaster in my business. What did you tell your staff? I tell them to be very, very careful, to let things go as much as they can, to never escalate, to move. It's easier to move the customers away

than sometimes than to move the panhandler. I mean, you give all sorts of rules of thumb, but you can't conceive of every scenario. And over the course of a year, something happens you didn't count on or somebody, you know, it's like it's like cops. You know, you can try all you want to train them. People lapse.

They get angry. You know, you ever get punched or pushed? You know, everything you know about wanting to turn the other cheek and let things go and and be uh uh circumspect goes out the window you just want to hit back you know so so well not chris rock yeah like chris red yeah so so i mean i think you you understand everything i'm saying right these are these are very difficult issues sure uh and look i'm a i mean i'm a libert, so I believe in property rights. I don't think people should shoplift. But particularly these larger retailers, I think it hurts mom and pop stores particularly hard, but particularly with the larger chain retails. I mean, shrinkage is built into their business model, right?

They expect a certain amount of shoplifting. A certain amount, yeah. Right. Certainly. Yeah. Now, the response to that is always, well, why would you even report shoplifting if you know that it's not going to be prosecuted or you know these people aren't going to be arrested? And my response to that would be, if you're a retailer, you report shoplifting, right? Because if you're the manager of a store, you have to explain shrinkage to your superiors, right, to your district managers or whatever. Also, it helps with your insurance. And if you're a large retail chain, there's an incentive for them to file as many reports of shoplifting, police reports as they possibly can, even if they know that people aren't going to be arrested, because they want these laws to be stricter. And every time they report it, they want shoplifting to look as bad as possible.

And I'm not saying they're being dishonest. I'm just saying the incentives are for them to report it, even if they know the person is not going to be arrested. Also, we've lost the effect of stigma. So there was a time when if you got arrested for shoplifting and it became known in your neighborhood, this was this was worse than going to prison in a certain way. Just just horrifyingly embarrassing. A shame on your parents, blah, blah, blah. That's not the case anymore either. So we've even lost that kind of way of enforcing order. I'm not sure I would agree with that.

I mean I wouldn't want to be tagged as a shoplifter. I wouldn't want people in my social circle to see me that way. But we're not talking your social circle. Right, but I don't think, I mean, I think there's still some shame with being seen that way. Some, some, of course. I don't mean to press it, you know, not even 100%, but in general, it's different.

Yeah, shame, you know, I think shame still can work. One of the, this is a little bit off topic, but I think it's sort of fascinating. One of the more unique uses of shame that I've seen is in Bogota in Colombia, where in the 90s, they had a big problem with jaywalking and people running red lights. And instead of sort of hiring a bunch of police officers to go out and, you know, write people tickets, they hired mimes and the mimes would come out. And when someone would jaywalk or they would try to run a red light,

the mime would sort of point to them and mock them. And in some cases with jaywalkers, they would follow them on the sidewalk and mock them in front of everyone. And apparently it worked so well that it spread to other cities, and they're apparently still done there. And he says, you were jaywalking! And I said, sorry about that, and I tried to keep going about my day because I thought that's how jaywalking was handled as a crime. You were jaywalking!" And I said, sorry about that. And I tried to keep going about my day because I thought that's how jaywalking

was handled as a crime. You were jaywalking! My bad. We're done here, right? That's it. I acknowledge that I jaywalked. I apologize not for the act of jaywalking, but how my jaywalking made you feel.

I'll try to jaywalk in the future while you're watching, but trust I'm gonna do it the rest of my life. It's the best way to go about being a pedestrian. And he says I have to give you a ticket give me your ID I said you don't understand only give people my ID for real stuff this is not real this is a fantasy crime that you're enforcing to cover up the fact that the city is having financial problems right now maybe it's good that there's not such shame to be caught shoplifting if you're shoplifting a basic necessity of life. Right, but I think shoplifting, even just being around in the city, seems like it's a lot more than it was throughout the course of my life. I've seen people walking out of stores with just duffel bags full of –

You've seen that yourself? Yeah, I have. That can't – we can't last with that. That obviously – is there any data about short two-, three-day sentences, what kind of deterrent that is? So if you're going to charge someone with a crime, if you're going to sort of accept the social cost of charging people with a crime, the data says that short but certain is the way to go. Like, that's the way you deter people. And what we actually have in our system now is we have sort of draconianly long sentences, but they're also anything but certain. We have the opposite, basically, of what we need. So, yeah, I think there is some data showing that, you know, you still want to sort

of factor in the cost of having a conviction, particularly a felony conviction on your record and what that does to people in terms of, you know, job prospects of, you know, it's going to, you know, you can legally sort of not rent to people if they have a felony record. So you want to consider all of that. But, yeah, swift and certain. That's interesting, you know, the interplay between how likely it is for you to get punished and how severe the punishment is. So if you knew there was a one in a thousand chance of being executed for throwing a cigarette butt on the sidewalk, I, for one, wouldn't throw my cigarette, take that risk. Yeah, I think execution probably probably upsets the the formula a little bit. But it's like Hitler breaks all analogies.

Especially if it's a beheading because apparently you actually are conscious for several seconds after the beheading. And apparently it's the most awesome few seconds of your life. Is it? There could be like some endorphin rush thing going on. But they've done studies on rats where they cut the rat's head off and the EEG says, yeah, these rats are conscious for 10, 15 seconds. So they think human beings also. So we have a solution here. We arrived at short.

He's not going to do it. Short. But certain. Certain sentences with no criminal record at least first two times or something like that, and then maybe the third time you have the ability to expunge your record if you keep your nose clean for a year or something like that. We need order. We need order. Something's got to work.

I would say you need a minimum also, or you need a minimum either amount that you've shoplifted or it has to be a multiple offense. I mean, I don't think we should start jailing people even for three or four days for a first or second offense for, you know, you know, $25 worth of groceries or some diapers. Was Valjean overcharged? Jean Valjean? I think he did, what did he do, 20 years? I never, unless that's before 10, I never, unless that's before I'm 10, I never. Okay. Are there other methods besides the plastic wall that retailers can use to prevent shoplifting in the first place? I don't know.

That's a good question. I'm not an expert in retail. I'm an investigative journalist, and I cover this stuff. But in terms of preventing theft, preventing shrinkage, that's a good question. I don't know. Shrinkage? Isn't that shrinkage an episode of Seinfeld? There's censors, but the thing is if you can't detain somebody, then the censors don't help you.

Fuck you. I'm leaving. Let's jump off to something else. An interesting topic, but I'm sure there's others. It's related. Well, I'll start broad. Do you have any – or have you written about the Jordan Neely incident? Because it's related in some way.

I haven't written about it. I've read quite a bit about it. Just a brief discussion for the non-New Yorkers, perhaps. Jordan Neely was the poor homeless man who was killed on the subway. Right, like somebody that- By the unfortunate, probably, Marine who- He was harassing people on the subway and somebody choked him? Harassing or threatening, it's not clear.

So this Marine put him in a chokehold or something? The Marine put him in a chokehold and – Just to immobilize him. We don't know. Yeah, we presume just to immobilize him, but I don't want to put any facts into evidence that we don't know. What's your basic take on that? And then I'll jump off to something else. Uh, I, you know, I think that, um, I think that there is, I, I don't know what exactly, uh,

Neely was saying to people. I don't know that if he was threatening people, they're, they're contradicting accounts of it. I can say under the worst case scenario, if he was threatening him, then the, you know, the Marine who put them in a chokehold that you could argue that it was justified at the beginning that he was trying to protect himself and the passengers, other passengers, he held them in that position for a really long time. And from the accounts I've read from other Marines and people who are trained in this kind of self-defense and this kind of these holds that they train them for in combat, he would have known when Neely lost consciousness and he continued to hold the grip well beyond that point. So, you know, I think there is probably a crime there in the sense that he held this longer than he needed to,

well past the point where Neely was no longer a threat. You know, I don't think he should be charged with murder, but I do think the, you know, an involuntary manslaughter type charge, I mean, you can't, we can't just sort of slip into vigilantism, right? I mean, we can't just sort of let people decide, I feel threatened by this person. I mean, what we know is Neely didn't actually physically harm anyone. He was saying things, but he hadn't struck anyone. He hadn't, you know, pulled a weapon on anyone. And so, you know, I think that we are. I'll say a few things. As I've been in situations like that where somebody really,

where you were really scared that some crazed homeless person, and this happened to me just a couple days ago. Where, I mean, it was traumatizing, actually, how scared I was when this guy, you know, was threatening towards me on the street. You really can't wait. You just can't. That sounds good. You can't. That sounds good. You can't. You can't. Now, what happened? You can't just kill somebody because it made you uncomfortable.

You can't wait until they strike somebody to prevent it. You can't just kill somebody. On the other hand, I liken it to, and then I want to talk about the mentally ill, because I'm actually very sympathetic to Neely for a number of reasons. But on the other hand, if you read about medical malpractice, where doctors kill people in outrageous fact patterns,

I mean, just fucking outrageous fact patterns in the way these doctors wound up killing, arrogant, not listening to the nurse. She warned him. You know, just total and often, you know, where people try to tell them and they don't. Almost never, almost never are they prosecuted for murder or involving manslaughter, even though these are more compelling cases in my mind than many of the possible scenarios with this Marine that we don't know yet. So in general, we are reluctant to put people in jail who we feel were trying to help, but then found themselves negligent, negligent in the process of trying to help.

And, you know, in that adrenaline-filled situation with the guy struggling, I don't know how time lapses. I don't know what you're aware of. It's very difficult for me to say no, no, no. Anybody knows that if you were in that situation struggling, you would have known that the moment that they... I don't know. But I do know that one of the people who was on the thing afterwards came and thanked him that another person on the train was holding his.

So listen, that's on one side. The other side, he killed somebody. So I think we all agree, like, let's not. I would like to see what happens in the trial. But I know that my leaning would be that if I felt the guy was sincerely trying to help, I don't think the way I view the world I would want to see him in jail. Absolutely a civil case. Absolutely pay through the nose for his negligence. Just like a doctor.

I don't think I'd want to see him in jail. But I'm open to it. I'm not on his side. Now, having said that, the way we treat the mentally ill, this guy, Neely, now I had a dear friend, people who listen to the podcast know about it. His name was Wig, and he was manic depressive, and he would become threatening and violent in his manic depressive in his manic stages and right before he died he went to his home and he was threatening to his mother who was quite old and his sister was there and they called the cops because they he didn't punch anybody didn't hit anybody but they called the cops so they were petrified and the cops came 9-, 911. And the mother and the sister begged the cops to take him to the mental hospital because he had been in mental hospitals before.

And the police, for whatever reason, maybe they were doing what they're told to do. The police did not take him to the mental hospital. Instead, they took him before the judge. The judge issued an order of protection. So he was out on the street and he couldn't go home to the only people who would take care of him. He actually, this is Harvey, he actually tried to contact me. But I didn't know what it was. He wanted to come to the podcast to watch.

Anyway. And next day he jumped off the bridge and killed himself. So Neely is just my friend Wig. But instead of jumping off the bridge, he's on the train. And he's violent and whatever it is. And I know that the history of mental institutions in this country is horrible. And I know that Geraldo Rivera, I don't know who else is old enough to remember, you know, uncovered in Willowbrook. But you would think in today's age with streaming and the people at the hospital could wear cameras and the people in the hospital could wear cameras that their loved ones could go online and monitor the situation.

And there's recording things everywhere. And you would think there'd be some way to put people in involuntary confinement that would not be just returning to the old days of torturing these people as it was. There is so much technology out. These people cannot decide for themselves what's in their own interest. They have to be institutionalized, in my opinion. And the flip side is people like us, we have a right to take the subway and live at home. And it's not cruel to say, I don't want to live like this. That's not cruel to say, I don't want to live like this. That's not cruelty. And what is cruelty is that Neely was on the subway and the people who concern themselves with supposedly having a heart for the mentally ill, that's just the way they want it.

They want to advocate for the homeless rights to shit on the street, whatever it is. None of this makes any sense to me. I don't know what your feelings are about it. Well, there's a lot there. You know, I do think that we don't treat mental illness seriously in this country. I mean, right now, it's almost impossible at a lot of cities to even get a psychiatrist. I mean, there's a six to eight month wait if you have insurance, if you have money. So if you're somebody who's homeless and needs mental health care, you know, the odds of you getting it are pretty much slim, slim to none.

So yeah, I mean, I agree with you on that. You know, I'm as a, again, as kind of a libertarian or civil libertarian, I worry about involuntary commitment and the potential for abuse there. You know, if you, but then again, if you have somebody who is, you know, schizophrenic or who has severe mental illness and is a threat to other people and doesn't want treatment, I, you know, at some point, obviously, you know, there, there, there have to be measures to, to deal with that. You know, I, I just want to make sure that I think all the, the appropriate kind of guardrails are in place to prevent abuse, like you said. You know, I will say in terms of the Neely situation, you can also look at the,

I think there's some comparisons to the Rittenhouse case in Wisconsin where, you know, Rittenhouse, I think, was those, the people he killed, he was, legally he was justified. Those were self-defense. The people had attacked him. In both cases, though, I'm really wary and sort of taken aback at the way that these two have been valorized by a lot of people, that they've been sort of turned into heroes.

I mean, Rittenhouse could be legally justified in killing the people that he killed. It's also a really fucking stupid idea if you're 17 years old to strap on your rifle and go into a – run into a protest. 17-year-olds are stupid. Right, right. But he's being celebrated for that. I mean he was doing the tour of Fox News where they were sort of making him a hero for it. But I would I would make a distinction. I think you probably agree that he's being valorized by right wing, whatever you call them.

What's the name? Wasn't him the Marine who has a I don't I can't remember his name off the top of my head. Cool common name. Anyway, the Marine is he might be valorized by citizens, but he's also been valorized by a few people who were on the train with him. And that to me is the – that's a powerful thing. They seem to have been happy he was there. Daniel Penny.

Penny. I was thinking Crown. I don't know. Penny. So we don't know, right? We don't know. Anybody with any wisdom says to themselves, you know, this there could be a fact pattern here which would lead me in either direction. And we have to wait and see what the testimony is. Right. is sad and it's not the outcome that we should have wanted. Whether or not he deserves criminal charges, I think, is going to depend on the evidence.

It's going to depend on what other people saw, what we heard, what the video says. But I don't, you know, there's no scenario in which I can think we should be like, yeah, you know, that guy got what was coming to him and, you know, this is the best possible outcome. Absolutely. Because the man's mentally ill you know if he was a criminal like a sane criminal I would have I say you know what whatever he got you know because I'm very unforgiving of people

who who put people like I always think we under charge like somebody goes into a Korean deli and and shoves somebody or hits them over the head but they're fine I always think we undercharge them. I think the mental trauma that you cause somebody in these situations is much worse than the physical. Ava, you know Ava. She got robbed. They smashed her head into the pavement,

and they robbed her when she was making a bank deposit. She's okay. She'll never recover from that, never. But the guy's not going to go to jail because she's okay. Right? So I – but a mentally ill person, if you stop and breathe, you understand, well, they're mentally ill. Like with my friend Wig, when he was threatening to me, I said, you know, he's mentally ill. It's heartless to expect mentally ill people. You know, I hear a lot of cases.

He was manic depressive, you said? Yeah. There was a comedian that just died recently. I won't mention her name, but she had bipolar illness. I think she was off her medication. I don't know the details, but there was another. We had a guest here that was bipolar that was off his medication. It seems like with bipolar illness, people go off their medications.

I think the manic part of it, when they're manic, they're like, I don't fucking need these medications. Depressed people never go off their medications. I think the manic part of it, when they're manic, they're like, I don't fucking need these medications. Depressed people never go off their medications. I don't think. I mean... They go off it because they don't like the way it makes them feel. And they try to...

Maybe the manic depressive medications are more heavy duty. Or maybe when they're manic, they're just like, I'm great. Things are great. What do I need these fucking medications for? Because the nature of that illness, I think, leads people to get off of it.

I got to do some research. Okay. So we've been playing a game lately at the end of our podcast. What did we call it last week? I've been reading emails that I've gotten. Ask how would you respond if you were the boss? What's it called? It's a good game.

It's a good game. We had a name for it last. It came to me. But it won't come to me again. It'll come. So anyway, but we had a thing this week where a comedian, I'm going to say her name because it's all over the news. Jocelyn Chia made a joke.

Now, she's Singaporean. I don't know how you sing it. Singapore. Singapore. Singaporean? I guess Singaporean. From Singapore. Right. She has the accent and everything. She has the accent and everything. I guess Singaporean from Singapore right she has the accent and everything

and she made a joke similar to Gilbert Gottfried's joke she made fun of the Malaysians and the Malaysian airline crash and apparently do you recall the joke? no but you can find it online

apparently this is a very serious thing. I think over and above the tragedy of the people who died, I think the nation of Malaysia just takes this seriously as a matter of like honor or face, as it were. And I think there's some feud between Singapore and Malaysia. Right. I think that that's really the crux of it. I think that there's a feud between Singapore and Malaysia. And the joke, the part about the plane crashing seemed to be just toward the end of the joke. Like it was.

Now, I'm furious at my team because they posted this. I would have never posted that video. I would have known in a minute, don't post that clip. Why not? Because to controversy. Those are exactly the things that go viral. Isn't that the point of posting clips? No.

Well, yeah, you want it to go viral in a positive way because I, because, no, this clip would only go viral because of the controversy. Right. It's just a spider sense. There's certain types of jokes that are not worth the trouble. Okay. Jokes that where everybody's laughing at somebody's plane crash.

They're funny to all of us except a significant subset of people who are emotionally involved with that incident. And there are many incidents like these times and they just it's just not worth okay but wait a second chris di stefano has a bit that is pinned somewhere that went viral and about 9-11 that he that was taped here that seemed to me to be not totally dissimilar. I'd have to hear it to make a lot of it comes to spider sense. But I'll tell you this. My spider sense is good. My spider sense is good.

Anyway. OK, so what happens? Let me read it. So we got lots, lots of emails and lots of things. And I don't want to say I don't even say online what happened because I don't want to encourage people to do it. OK, but we can. I just want to say something that I said.

Long emails. I just said something to Jocelyn like, oh, this is so funny. And I got a ton of hate mail, like to me personally. Oh, online you said this. Yeah, I posted it on. How did they find your email address? Well, they saw my name. I posted it on Instagram.

I really would like to see the hate mail. You just got hate. Hate messages. I really would like to see the joke You didn't get hate mail. You just got hate – Hate messages. I really would like to see the joke to know if she was sort of – I mean, you can talk about a tragedy and make – No, she was putting down Malaysia. I was like, ha, ha, ha. Oh, okay.

You know, okay. I can see why it was controversial. Yeah. Anyway, okay. The audience roared, but the audience doesn't care about that, you know? They're not – You know, it could almost be like, you know, you're making fun of some horrible thing that happens to the Jews.

You know, it's like, you know, everything is funny, but to us it's like, you know, it hurts us in some way. Beyond actual, anyway, so here's the email. Email is coming. And you can tell me how to answer it. I don't even know how to answer it. I hope this email finds you well. Really?

Anyway. Oh, I just don't like that formula. It finds you well. It's. Yeah Well, I just don't like that formulation, finds you well. Yeah, that's ChatGPT wrote that. Okay. I'm writing to bring to your attention a serious matter that is deeply concerning me regarding one of your performers, Jocelyn Chia. I would like to request that you consider taking appropriate action such as banning her from performing at the Comedy Cellar due to her insensitivity, making fun of... By the way, don't laugh because this is heartfelt. Banning her from performing at the Comedy Cellar due to her insensitivity, making fun of a tragic incident,

and the use of hate speech and profanity during her performances. First and foremost, I want to emphasize that I believe in freedom of speech and the importance of comedy as a means of social commentary. However, there is a fine line between pushing boundaries and crossing into territory that promotes harm, hate, and insensitivity. Regrettably, Jocelyn Chia's recent performance has exhibited such behavior, and it is my strong conviction that this kind of content is detrimental to our society. Specifically, during her performances, performances miss Chia has displayed a concerning lack of sensitivity towards a tragic incident Her jokes and remarks regarding his incident have been deeply hurtful and disrespectful to those affected by it as a member of the audience

I found her words to not only be offensive but also alarming considering the potential influence her words could have on others Furthermore, it is important to note that Jocelyn Chia's use of hate speech and profanity is entirely inappropriate Okay, I'm and positive discourse. Okay, I'm about halfway done. No, I'm almost finished. As a frequent patron of the Comedy Cellar, I have always enjoyed the diverse range of talented comedians who grace your stage. The venue has earned its reputation as a welcome... I implore you to uphold these values by thoroughly reviewing Mischief's performances

and considering the impact her words have on your audience. Okay, last paragraph. Paragraph? I understand that comedy can be subjective and that individual tastes may vary. However, I firmly believe that it is crucial to address concerns when comedy ventures into harmful territory. By taking action to address this matter, you will not only demonstrate your commitment to maintaining a respectful environment, but also protect the reputation of a comedy teller as a beacon of quality entertainment. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

I sincerely hope that you will carefully consider my complaint and take appropriate steps to address the concerns raised. I look forward to hearing from you regarding the actions you plan to take in response. Yours sincerely. Is there any indication that this individual is Malaysian or has any... Yeah, I think by the name I would say they're from that part of the world, yes. Okay, so the question is how should you respond? Any – yeah, I think by the name I would say they're from that part of the world, yes. Okay. So the question is how should you respond? Do you want to take a stab at it, Radley?

Oh, I mean – Did the kids make fun of you for having the name Radley when you read To Kill a Mockingbird? That must have been excruciating. Not so much, no. I mean, unfortunately, it's a beloved book, so – Right, or the coolest name ever. Yeah, but okay, so what would you answer this? I got made I got made fun of more for Prescott, to be honest. I named my son's middle name Flash. And and I but my worst case scenario was that he

was really slow. But thank God he's pretty good. So we use it sarcastically. So good. What would you say? Slow, physically slow, not slow mentally. Well, either one. Either way. Go ahead. I mean, my first instinct as a journalist is I just want to edit the shit out of that email because it's just really, really, really long. Look, I mean, my response to hate mail has basically been just to respond in sort of a gracious way. And a lot of times people will

back down pretty quickly because they don't expect that. They expect you to either ignore them or to respond angrily. So, you know, I mean, I haven't heard the jokes, so I can't. I'll send it to you. I tend to be, you know, I enjoy comedy. I think jokes about things that are horrible and tragic sort of help us process them and help us deal with them. So it's not – it doesn't bother me, but I'm also not Malaysian. Well, this joke was also needling. It wasn't just like an absurdist joke about the crash. It was also like – and it's kind of like putting down the Malaysian word. But I just want to say just in case it gets back to Bruce Leroy.

I don't regard this as hate mail. Sure. I'm not as hate mail. Sure. I'm not in hate mail. Okay. I thought it was respectful. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But what would you say, Periel?

I think you know what I would say. I would say that – Now, why don't you say what you actually would say. I know what you would say. What would I – You would say, go F yourself. We don't censor comics. I wouldn't say that just because Noam is trying to teach me not to respond in that way.

I think that you can. I think that with all due respect, you could make that claim about anything. Cancer, AIDS, 9-11, the Holocaust. Peanut allergies. Peanut allergies. Balloonists. Yeah, that happened. AIDS, 9-11, the Holocaust peanut allergies balloonists yeah that happened so there was a comedian who offended somebody because they have a whole bit about hot air ballooning

and this person I don't know Sam Murill's joke about how the child got eaten by an alligator I should read that letter next week we got a doozy of letters that's an older letter, but sure. That was a good one, yeah.

So, you know, I appreciate that it's a tragedy, a plane crash is a tragedy, but I did see the joke. Now, I do want to make the point, as opposed to Sam Morrell's alligator thing, which was just, let me stop there. What people don't understand, or people find hard to understand is the comedians relate to the world this way. Right. Everything is fodder and that's the culture.

That's right. And within the culture and the bubble of comedians, there's nothing is off limits. Nothing is holy. So I've told the story when my father was just about to die and my father was beloved by the comedians. I mean beloved. Nick DiPaolo

says how's your father? I said I think he maybe has 48 hours. And Nick says to me who gets the Lexus? So he's like how could anybody? But within that culture I laughed because that's just the way we do things. But also they do things. But the audience also laughed. Right.

I mean, at this. Yeah. But the audience, their ox wasn't gored. But so I should just make the point that this wasn't just an absurdist joke about this ridiculous thing of a alligator eating someone at Disney World. This was actually she was actually she had a point here. She was putting down Malaysia. So it's, I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to be accurate about it. So it's not quite the same thing.

So what would you say, Dan? Well, first of all, I want to say that this is not a joke that, rightly or wrongly, I tend to avoid making light of tragedy and plane crashes in particular because we all fly. And, boy, that's got to be horrifying to be in one of those situations. But I'm not saying this is right or wrong. It could have disappeared. Apparently we have UFOs or UEPs. In any case, how would you respond?

Should you respond? I think in the way you responded last week. First of all, say, look, she was in the audience. She wasn't responding from the internet. They say they were, yeah. I would have said, well, first of all, I don't want my customers to have a bad time. So the first thing I'm going to do is refund your money. She didn't even ask for that. so maybe she wasn't even there but uh if she was there i would offer to

refund the money and maybe even give her uh you know whatever on the house next time however with regard to punishing jocelyn chia my policy is fairly um uh clear and unnegotiable. I don't censor comics. And I might have thought this joke was, you know, a little much, but I just don't censor comics. That's not how I run this business, and I have found that that is the best way to do it. I mean, there's no end to it.

And that's it. And even if I did punish her, what would you suggest? A one-week suspension? A two-week suspension? No, I'm not going to punish Jocelyn. But before I get to that, by the way, just because it's... So I would say, that's my policy. I don't punish comics.

But you know what? You had a bad time. And I hate when people have a bad time in my venue. On the house, the next show. Or we'll just refund you. I should do that. Free trip to Malaysia. Just before I read what I wrote, and then we'll end the podcast.

Both Tucker Carlson and Eric Weinstein are both all in on the fact that we actually have alien spacecraft intact. Now, I don't know. Maybe it's my failure of imagination. I do not – UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. UFO is much better. Do you believe that? I can't. Tucker Carlson, I watched his first Twitter. I don't believe anything that would require large numbers of people to keep a secret. He said it's proven. You can count on it just like bioweapons labs in Ukraine. But no, I can't believe this man. Anyway, do you believe it

i mean i think uh i'm convinced that there is you know intelligent life out there in the universe i also think if they had the ability and the technology to come and visit us um they wouldn't want anything to do with us we would probably bore the out of them because we would you know it would be like us sort of communicating with bacteria um so yeah i mean i think it's i i think it's certain that there's probably life out there but i also don't think they're gonna they want anything to do with us this great technology managed to take off from something i guess i don't know light years would have to be light years away and and but just when they finally got to Earth, they crashed. Our military brought them down.

Yeah, just boom. Oh, shit. Not again. Mission control. Oh, goddammit. Back to the... I just want to say that I am not convinced that there's intelligent life out there. I think there's a pretty good chance that there's some life out there. Maybe there's intelligent life, but I'm not convinced of it. I don't believe the story at all i would certainly don't believe that story i would sooner

believe that my wife is cheating on me that's how much i don't believe it okay that's and here's what you wrote okay so i wrote so i punted because um i didn't i want i felt the urge to want to say that you don't really seem to believe in free that you don't really seem to believe in free speech. You don't really seem to understand what free speech is. But I didn't want to challenge them on that. And that's really the only point. But is there anything that a comic could say on stage that would – I mean the N-word, in anger, by a white guy, you would probably would say, no, we can't have you here. Yes, I would do that. Okay.

So I just wrote – and this is not my best answer, but it was sincere. It was sincere. I said, I've received your email, and honestly, the task of writing an answer to such an incredibly complex issue is not something I'm in a position to do today or maybe even this week, but I didn't want it to go unanswered. There are many challenging levels to this that I have to consider as a decision maker. And I'll finish and I'll tell you what I meant by that. Some that you may not have considered. Some that you may not have considered. If you'd like to meet for coffee sometime over the next few days, I think that might be better.

After, if you'd like to take in a show, assuming you're not angry with me, I'd be happy to have you as my guest. Let me know. I'll be in every night this week. Because what they're not understanding is that if I were to do something about this, the ripple effects throughout all the other comedians expecting me then to draw a line here and draw a line there. It would be virtually impossible. So that even accepting for the sake of argument that a comedian said something they shouldn't have said that came out wrong, that actually was offensive, that I was offended by,

and I've been in a situation. There's no reason to do anything about it. Agreed, of course. She touched a hot stove. You don't have to punish someone for touching a hot stove. They learn to not touch it again on their own. And it was real true what I was saying. I was dealing with so much today.

I didn't feel like I could write all that out. I wasn't sure that it would be received in the way that it was intended based on, you know, maybe they're from another country or whatever it is. So that's where I wrote. Now, when I was going through all this shit with Louis, there were certain times

I did invite people to come down and say, listen, why don't you just come down and I'll speak to you face to face. And that always worked out very, very well. I turned people who hated me into people I'm still

associated with today. One guy became my really good friend simply because I faced him and had a conversation. So that's the way I faced it. Thank you for playing our game. But I think that Jocelyn would stand behind that joke. I think that Jocelyn...

I mean, I don't want to put words in her mouth. I don't think she's going to tell it again. She kept it up on her Instagram. Right, but I don't think... It's not tell it again. She kept it up on her Instagram. Right, but I don't think... It's not worth it for her to tell it. I mean, it's not... Listen, I... You know, I had a joke years ago.

It was a joke about date rape. I told the joke where I said, oh, I thought date rape meant when you force a woman to go on a date with you. You push her into the movie theater and you say, you know, sit in the front row and strain your neck because you like it rough. That was the joke. I got a complaint. I said, you know, sit in the front row and strain your neck because you like it rough. That was the joke. I got to complain. I said, you know what?

I got other jokes. There's nothing wrong with that joke. I stand by that joke. But at the same time, I got to make a decision whether I want to deal with complaints. I didn't. I got other jokes. Fuck it. Yeah.

Not everything. Not everything is. You don't have to fight every battle. It's up to her what she wants to. Sure. Now, it's a predicament for me if she keeps telling that joke because I don't have to fight every battle. It's up to her what she wants to... Sure. Now, it's a predicament for me if she keeps telling that joke because... I don't know. That's like...

But you're right. It's endless for you. Well, but at some point, if you get enough letters and enough... At some point, you would say to Jocelyn, Look, Jocelyn, I got 500 emails this week about that joke. Please don't do it. Right? I mean, at some point.

I might. I'm still running a business. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Well, how many emails did you get? Just that one. Please don't do it. Right? I mean, at some point. I might. I'm still running a business. Yeah. Well, how many emails did you get? Just that one, right? No, no. It's been a lot. There's like, if you Google Jocelyn Cheer right now, there's like 15 articles in

Asia about this story. So are you at all close to telling Jocelyn? And if 1% of the people in Asia read this story, it's a very big, absolute number. Are you, how close are you to telling Joss? And if 1% of the people in Asia read this story, it's a very big absolute number. Are you – how close are you to telling Joss and Joss and just lose the joke? Or you're not even close to that? I hadn't even considered it. I just assumed that she's –

That she would do it anyway. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. That's why I get the big buck stand. Okay. Radley, where do you live? In D.C. or something?

Nashville, Tennessee. Oh, in Tennessee. I was just in Nashville. Well, that's become sort of a comedy center, I guess, right? It's become a center for fun. Nashville reminded me of the freewheeling fun city that New York used to be when I was there. Zany's is our main comedy club here, I guess. I think Sherrod was just there.

You walk by Nashville, you can hear music coming from the restaurants. You hear people having a good time. New York used to be... You hear it in the airport. You can hear that at the comedy center on Monday night. You hear music coming in. A little bit. But New York is like...

New York is buttoned up. It's not fun like it used to be. Anyway, so I hope you... Well, if you ever come to New York, you must come to New York at certain points. Very, very often. My wife's family has a lot of family there. Actually, yeah, we may end up moving there within a couple of years.

Oh, well, then you have my email address. Please come to the Comedy Cellar. Be my guest. I'd love to. And hang out. Malko, is that – that would be, I'm guessing, Ukrainian? Prussian. Prussian?

Yeah. Yeah. Prussian. A little German, a little Polish, a Prussian? Okay. Little German, little Polish, little Russian. Okay. Prussia, of course, was out of on Bismarck. Yeah, yeah.

If a Jewish comedian was making some remarks about Prussians being like the epicenter of all the people who've been mad to the Jews. My people have killed a lot of people, yeah. Anyway, it's been a pleasure having you on. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I know you hang out with a lot of eggheads, so I hope that we were –

No, it was fun. It was a good time. Thanks, guys. Smart enough. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, that was good. And actually, I hope if some issue comes up in the news in the future that you feel – actually, if some issue comes up in the future that you have a particular interest in, shoot us an email if you want to come on because yeah yeah yeah i'd love to yeah uh check out the sub stack and if i ever write anything you want to talk more about please please uh i'm sorry for not plugging your sub stack

no worries uh okay we'll put it in our okay we'll put it in the all right is that we done dan i think so thank you radley um i guess that's it. Podcast at ComedyCellar.com for comments, questions, suggestions. I thought that it was a pretty good episode. You know, we did some comedy-related stuff. We did some shoplifting stuff, which I thought was interesting.

Anyway, please let us know which aspects of the show you like the best. And, yeah, I guess that's it. See you next time. Where can they let us know that? He can't get off. He has to just keep talking. I know, I do like it.

Good night, everybody. Good night.