The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Reza Aslan & Des Bishop

Episode Date: November 11, 2017

Reza Aslan is an author, producer, and TV host. He is the author of a new book, "God: A Human History." Des Bishop is a prominent standup comedian who may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. We're here at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. This is one of our highbrow radio shows here. Of course, we have, as always, Mr. Dan Natterman and our go-to comedian when we need a highbrow comedian, Mr. Des Bishop is here. Only my second time. You've only needed a highbrow comedian twice?

Well, he's our new go-to guy. New go-to guy. Thank you. I like the honor. And I don't want to introduce him improperly, but his name is Reza Aslan. Thank you. Who is a world-renowned expert on religion. But you can, I don't know if you have any, how you like to be introduced. As Tracy Morgan would say, he's an intellectual.

I like world-renowned expert in religion. That's actually not a bad introduction. I'm also author most recently of God, a Human History. God, a Human History. God, a Human History. Is this some sort of atheist tome on a Christopher Hitchens type thing? Well, it's about the history of how we have humanized God. Yes. How we conceive of God in human terms.

How we give God our own personalities. I see God as looking somewhat like Des Bishop. You mean white? White and slightly bearded? I meant perfect Gentile features. Any skin color, though. We're at the crossroads today of a lot of... Can we get some air conditioning up in this motherfucker?

We're at the crossroads today of a lot of important events, both a white shooter attack and a terrorist attack. And maybe you'll be able to tell us how your expertise can inform those events and enlighten those events, give us your opinion on those events. Before that, I did a little research on you, and you are a Muslim. Yeah. Though you believe that religion is a man-made construct. Yeah, that's just a fact, yeah. And do you or do you not believe in the supernatural? Yes.

You do believe in the supernatural. Do I believe in God? Yeah, I believe in God, yeah. But I mean, look, religion is different than faith. These are not the same thing. Faith is, it's mysterious. It's individual. It's inexpressible. Religion is how we express it.

And religion is an institutional thing. It is a man-made, literally a man-made thing, by which I mean like people with penises, like man-made thing, by which I mean people with penises, like man-made institution that essentially tries to create some sense of organization to what is, I think, a universal phenomenon, which is faith. But like all man-made institutions, it's obviously political and it's corrupt. But this is what I can't wrap my rhyme around, and you guys tell me. Jump in. If you believe

that religion is a man-made thing, you believe in the supernatural, that's already, to me, I would say that the burden of proof is for somebody to prove that. That's a faulty logic. So hold that thought and tell me why. I want to know why that's faulty.

If you believe in the supernatural, yet you know that religion is a man-made thing, why would you choose to want to call yourself a member of one religion? Oh, good question. Because in my mind, every religion had to start with a lie. Somebody claimed something, that he saw something, or somebody was special, or somebody did a miracle, and somebody knew they were lying. Yeah, and then these spread into a religion. So why would you want to become a part of something where the fruit of the poisonous tree kind of— How many questions are in that question?

No, no, it's one question. I don't want to step on Des' feet here. It's all right. I'm Catholic. There's some fundamental errors in the way that you just sort of expressed that question. First of all, what do you mean by the supernatural? Let's start there. I can define that. Let's define it.

I would think that there are laws, there are scientific laws, physics, whatever, that constrain what can and can't happen in the universe. That everything in the universe has to obey certain laws, and therefore, at some point, if you have enough information and enough knowledge, everything in the universe is predictable. Dan thinks there's no free will because of that. But you also recognize that those laws are changing

depending on what we discover. I'm not saying we know the laws. We're constantly discovering new ways of thinking. So therefore, supernatural means that the difference between supernatural and natural is that which we don't know yet, according to your definition. No. That doesn't make any sense. No, that's not what my definition. I don't pretend that we know everything or everything couldn't turn out.

Maybe there's not an equal and opposite reaction. No, no, no. What I mean to say is when you say supernatural, you mean that which is beyond the natural workings of law. But those natural workings are changing depending on new experiences and new discoveries. And so that means the definition of supernatural changes. My definition is something different. I believe that there is something beyond the material realm, something real, an experience that you can have that is more than just about the sum and total of this material world.

I believe that… You believe in a soul? In a soul, exactly. And it exists forever? Yeah, absolutely. And when did it come into being? It always existed? It existed as long as the universe has existed. It is the universe. And our souls are in some sort of a holding cell somewhere?

No, no. When does a soul animate our bodies? All right, well, let me put it this way. Invitro fertilization. Does a soul just... The laws of nature that you're describing include the most important law of nature, which is the conservation of matter and energy,

which means that everything that exists now has always existed and will always exist as long as the universe exists. Which I can't comprehend, but yes. Right, so that's fundamentally what someone means when they say that we are immaterial beings in a material body.

That there is a permanence to what I am that is eternal, that has always existed. Now, I think you're saying that your soul is your personality. Why do you need faith for that? In other words, to me, the supernatural means that, well, we all know that the law of the universe is that 2 plus 2 is 4, but some greater being can say, no, it's 5. And I'm going to reshape everything as if 2 plus 2 is 5, and it'll ripple through the entire universe.

I can do that because I'm supernatural. The laws don't apply to me. That's what God can do, right? But your supernatural being exists outside of the universe, and so therefore can do things to the universe. My supernatural is the universe. My supernatural is the consciousness of the universe. This is why I think before you can have an argument about whether there is a God or not,

you need to start by saying, what do you mean by God? Because if you start there, then I think you can actually talk about whether that thing exists or not. So tell us what you mean by God and why you're a Muslim. If you're a Muslim, why do you need to define it? Why can't we just accept that we haven't got a fucking clue? Well, we don't have a

fucking clue. That's actually, that's true. And we don't need to have one. The only response, okay, this is good. So the only reasonable response to the question of is there a God or not is I don't know. The response isn't no, now you have to prove that there is, or yes, and now prove that there isn't. The only intellectually honest answer is I don't know. The problem, though, comes with what you just said, Des, which is that when people say, I don't know, or when they call themselves agnostic or whatever, they don't mean, I don't know. They mean, I don't give a shit. That's what they mean. They mean,

they don't care. That's what they actually mean. And I do care because I want, I want to actually have, I think what I believe is a much fuller human experience. And to have a fuller experience means to connect with something beyond just that, which I can experience in the material world now let's connect it to the to the question of why why do I call myself a Muslim because number one if I start there do you believe that there is something more or not yes or no it's just it's basically a choice you can't prove it either way I choose yes there is that choice isn just, it's basically a choice. You can't prove it either way. I choose yes, there is. That choice isn't rational.

It's experiential. It's about the life that I've had, the feelings that I've had, the experiences that I've had that have made me think that there is more than this. Now, the next question is, does that matter to me or not? And the answer is either yes or no. To me, the answer is yes. I actually want to experience that other thing but i don't know how to it's you know you're talking about something that is inexpressible you're talking about something that is totally and utterly unhuman beyond our possible comprehension

so or it's completely human and the fact that we think we we can find it is just more of us just deciding that's what we're feeling it is well it is it is human in the sense that we think we can find it is just more of us just deciding that's what we're feeling. Well, it is human in the sense that we conceive of it in human terms. So I have a question. That's the point that I'm making. So, okay, so you think that the, I guess you're saying that the urge to believe and create religion

is man-made. However, the fact of the supernatural and a you know, a creator or whatever it is, is real. So does that... Close. So religion becomes a most of all

imposing it like a morality and a moral code on people. Is that moral code objectively true? No. Does the force in the universe that you believe exists care whether we kill? No. They don't. So then why call yourself a Muslim? Okay, so if I want to actually experience this thing, okay,

if I want to experience this other thing, we can call it God. God is a weird word because it's got all this baggage to it, as we've already experienced in the last few minutes. But whatever. Let's call it Fred, okay? Let's just call it Fred, okay? Fred is that which exists beyond the material realm. Of course, it's a man's name.

Of course. It's a man. He identifies as a god, though. I want to see that. This is Fredrick. This is Fredrick. This is Hatem. Fredrick.

I don't know if Fredrick goes there. Fredrick, the god's son. This god just showed up. He identifies as a god. That was funny. God just showed up. He identifies as God. That was funny. If you want to experience Fred, how do you do that? How do I talk about it? How do I communicate it?

How do I express it in words when really what I'm talking about is something that by definition is inexpressible? I need a language. I need a language. I need symbols. I need metaphors. I need some way to communicate it. That's what religion is. To communicate what? This man-made morality that doesn't actually come from God?

Separate man-made morality from the spiritual. Again, what you're doing is that you're taking religion and religiosity and institutionalism and you're divinizing it. You're making it divine. When in reality, these are just people who have created organizations and institutions in order to define the divine and then obviously to control people who believe. A couple of points, if I could. Number one is... We still haven't gotten to the why the Muslim part.

Number one is, does anybody notice that he has the exact same voice as our dear friend Alingan Mitra? He does, you do, you do. Exact same voice. Where did you grow up? Iran. Alingan is from?

He's Indian, he's Indian. Well, then how the hell do they have the same voice? I don't know. You've got some sort of racist listening. Your ears are just too... We're all the same to you, aren't we? Alingan is... They call it Desi, right?

India and Bangladesh, that area is called Desi. Anyway. Okay, go ahead. Next point. Stop pretending you know too much. Well, he's Indian. In any case, the next point is, do you or do you not believe that Muhammad is the prophet?

I believe Muhammad is a prophet. I believe that lots of people can communicate with the divine. Yeah. You believe Muhammad communicated with the spirit world, but didn't get morality. The morality is man-made. What did they talk? What was the communication? You know, I don't mean to be flippant.

I feel like sometimes it's going to sound like me. No, I don't mean to be flippant at all. It's so difficult for me to wrap my mind around. Well, let's go back for a minute here. So, if religion is just a language made up of symbols and metaphors that helps an individual or a community to describe, communicate to themselves and to each other this inexpressible thing that we call faith, which, by the way, is not a man-made thing. Faith is in our DNA. The concept of the soul, or however you want to believe it, the belief that there is more beyond the material realm, that is a universal belief that exists in every culture and throughout all time.

I trace it in the book all the way back to before our species even existed. We find religious expressions of religious faith, or whatever, spiritual experience, however, in Neanderthals. We can find them in Homo erectus. We can go back hundreds of thousands of years and see it. I believe that. So, there is something in our brain, there is something in the way that our cognitive processes work that make us think this way. Now, sometimes to say, well, it's just an accident, it's just a blip, it's an echo, you know, it's meaningless. And some people would say, no, there's a meaning

and purpose for it. There's a reason why we think this way. There's a reason why it's part of our, you know, our cognitive processes. There's no proof either way. It doesn't matter. The point being, the point being is, how do I talk about it? How do I talk about it? I need a language. That's what religion is. That's all it is. But why have we been so stuck on these ancient ones and such restrictive ones? Which comes back to the question, why do you choose?

You can choose your own metaphor. You can find your metaphor in yoga. You can find your metaphor in rock climbing. You can find your metaphor in Judaism if you want to. The point is that don't... You can, but you got to get your penis. In rock climbing, you can find your metaphor. In Judaism, if you want to. You can, but you've got to get your penis. You've got to get the little chopped off thing. But the point is that don't confuse the metaphor for the thing itself. That's the argument.

And for me, the metaphor that makes most sense when I try to conceive of what this thing Fred is, is the metaphors that Islam provides. But I'm a scholar of world religion. I study the religions of the world. I know better than to take any one religion all that seriously or to think that one religion is the right metaphor.

Well, it seems to me like you're Islam bona fide. You're Muslim bona fides are questionable. Oh, coming from the Jew, that sounds... Well, I'm a Jew by ethnicity, not by religion. But my point is that it sounds to me like you're Muslim with an asterisk. Let's talk to a real Muslim.

Hatem Gowri. Wait, wait, wait. Before we get to Hatem, so circumcision, you believe, comes from the mystical top? So you're Muslim, but you're ready to just write off the certain aspects of Islam that you think are not. Well, I'm circumcised. My sons are circumcised. You don't feel that you're going to offend Fred by not circumcising?

I don't think Fred gives a shit about my penis. And dietary rules. Again, these are man-made. This is what makes the religion to me. Right. But here's the thing is that what I'm asking you to do is break free of the shell of religion. Look, the Buddha. That's why I would say if I were you, I wouldn't be a Muslim.

Here's what the Buddha says. I'd be a Fredist. Here's what the Buddha says. The Buddha says, if you want to strike water, you don't dig six one-foot wells. You dig one six-foot well. Islam is my six- well it's how I drink strike my water but I know like the Buddha knew that the water that I'm drinking from is the water that everybody is drinking from you know the

water is the same the well is different pick a well can you imagine the ass well I mean the girls must love this line of horse vanilla are you married? yes I am and it works really well I envy you the serenity of that kind of there's nothing serene about it it's a quite anxiety producing I'll tell you the serenity

to think there's a soul that has always existed and will continue to exist what's more serene than that? I mean, I would start thinking, well, okay, there used to be like 100,000 people on planet Earth, and maybe we're going to have like 5 billion soon. Did those other 400, 4 billion, whatever the math is,

did those souls, they were just waiting? Loaves and fishes, man. This much I will say. I can't comprehend it. You're thinking that each soul is just some personality swimming around waiting for a body. Yeah. And that's incorrect.

This much I will say, and I did read a theory about this, is we cannot explain consciousness, try as we might, that inanimate particles created what we call consciousness, you know, self-awareness. That's impossible to explain and I don't think we're any closer than we were ever. So, maybe consciousness,

we've got matter, we've got energy, maybe consciousness is a third thing that's always existed. Is that what you're getting at? In science, this is called panpsychism. That's what I'm saying.

Yes. It's a scientific theory that consciousness is universal and that the universe has, quote unquote, consciousness. And so it is an old religious theory as well. It's pantheism in religion, that all things are God and God is all things. It's monism in philosophy. It's the conservation of matter and energy. Whatever you want to say, however you want to break it down,

whatever discipline you want to go with, all is one and one is all. The question is, what's your definition of one? My definition of one is God. Dan practices onanism, which is a little bit different. Now, Hatem. Wait, can we get Hatem? Yeah, get Hatem to do it. Hatem, question.

Given what you've heard, should this man be allowed to go to Mecca? As you know, Mecca is authorized for Muslims only. And I don't know from what I'm hearing, he can go to Riyadh maybe. Before the show, I was sleeping in bed watching Lost. And then they called me and said, come here. Come out, we need a Muslim. We need a real Muslim. First of all, my phone's been ringing off the hook.

So I know all the shows, it's like something is going on. That's how I know there's a terrorist attack if I don't watch the news. But then I come and I have no idea. I'm still like, and I'm sitting next to this guy. I'm a huge fan. First of all, so if you don't know him. Yeah, take that. He's Muslim famous. He's very

charming, this Reza guy. Yeah, he's awesome. Go ahead. But I don't know. But my point is, like, he's one of the Muslims. Sometimes, you know, I agree or disagree with a few things, but he's one of the people that studies everything, and they make a choice based on facts. You know what I'm saying?

So, yes, he is the kind of Muslim that we want, not just... We didn't bring you here to big up this guy. Just play devil's advocate. He's clearly the preferred Muslim. I want to start with that first. Now I did invite him to come to our show and he didn't return my email.

But it's okay. Go ahead. So what was the question? My question was can he get into Mecca? Of course he can. How do they verify that you're Muslim to get to Mecca? If you came home talking to smack to your father, what do you tell you?

Don't let anybody ever hear you talk that way. Or what do you encourage you? Depends which country we're in. Well, also, I think that's true of all fathers. Like, it doesn't really, you know. No, it depends where you are. If you're, like, say, in, I don't know, Iran or Saudi Arabia or, you know. Where'd you grow up?

In Egypt? Or Kuwait I mean? I was born in Kuwait and I grew up in Egypt a little bit But your ethnicity is Egyptian your ancestry So you don't get that oil money

Yeah Ugh Jews just have to turn everything to money Let's move on past your But just quickly to get into Mecca

all you gotta do is say I'm Muslim and they let you in But he is one of the You have to say the Fatihah which is like a little professional thing. But yeah, he can get in. Anybody can get in.

So my particular branch of Islam is Sufism, which is a much more mystical branch of Islam. It's been around since the beginning. But to your question, because I know this is what you're trying to get to, yeah, I would say that most Muslim imams and institutions and clerics, they look at Sufis as goofy. As goofy, yeah. They look at the way that all people look at all mystics in any religion. The way Christians look at Christian mystics or Jews look at Jewish mystics.

That's why I look at the Hasids. Like I look at them like they're nuts. But this guy's a lot more charming than your average Hasid. No, no. I don't mean to compare you to a Hasid. They're almost the opposite of mystical. They're very rigid. No, they're quite mystical, actually, at the same time.

You're thinking the Haridim. They're very rigid. Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I mean, you took the words right out of my mouth. Okay. Let's move on to current events. You are awesome. I'm going to tell you why you're awesome.

Because we're coming at you pretty hard. Almost close to the line of dismissive in a way of a PhD in religion, but because it's so hard for me to get this up. But you're so nice and charming about it. I'm almost ready to convert to Islam. Mission accomplished. nice and charming about it. Like, I'm almost ready to convert to Islam. Have you... Mission accomplished. Have you ever been told

that you're wrong in such nice terms? No, no, no. This is actually true. For every person I convert to Islam, I get a virgin. Is that part of a true...

That's in the Quran. Every person... I just want air miles. The way you came on to this podcast is I was having a text message debate with Nimesh Patel about the terrorist... He probably showed you the text message.

He didn't, no. And he found it very important to convince me that the radical Islamic terrorists, for lack of a better term to describe them, I've always felt we need a different word, whatever, that's the only term I can come up with, but whatever they are, he says, that's not true Islam. Yep. And my response

was to him, look, I don't know whether it's true Islam or not. That's for the Muslim world to adjudicate. I know that there are people in the world who are organizing in the name of Islam who are doing this kind of thing. But I imagine, like, you know, my father used to talk about how he would suffer anti-Semitism

because the Christians believed that Jews killed Christ. And if I went back to him and said, well, no, that's not Christianity. They're interpreting it wrong. He'd say, like, what difference does it make? Or the Crusades. No, that wasn't Christians because they were interpreting the religion wrong.

So, or the Hasids. Like, compare a Hasid to a Reformed Jew. Like, if somebody said to me, you know, there's Jews who are putting penises in their mouth during circumcision to suck the blood, I would say, yeah, they do. I wouldn't say, well, that's not Judaism, even though I could disagree with that interpretation.

So I don't find the importance of that argument, other than the human, understandable human desire to want to disassociate oneself from what looks to the world. Listen, that's not us.

But it exists. If you think of it like a cult, it's easy to disconnect. Yeah, but it exists and we have to protect ourselves from it. And I always thought one of the problems that we don't have a word to describe it, which could be the same world that the Muslim world might use to describe them, so we could kind of cordon them off intellectually. So I don't know what you feel about that issue. You want me to?

Both of you. Well, look, you're not. I mean, look, Nimesh is going to be disappointed in my answer because I have to answer as a scholar first. And the truth of the matter is that we cannot disassociate religion from acts of religious violence. You want a term for it? Religious terrorism is the right term for it. It's terrorism motivated by religion. And I'm like you. I get it. I understand why a community of faith, when confronted by extremism within their faith,

why they would want to say that has nothing to do with us. It's just that it's not true. Here is the fundamental fact. A Muslim is anyone who says he's a Muslim. A Jew is anyone who says he's a Jew. A Christian is anyone who says he's a Christian. There is no external force, right? There's no person out there who gets to decide who is and who is not a Christian, even though many people think that they can be that person. So if you are a Muslim, if you call yourself a Muslim, and you think that your religion, your interpretation of Islam is compelling you to act out violently, we can't just

ignore that. We can't just simply say, well, that has nothing to do with Islam, because it does if that person says it does. Here's why Muslims recoil when that argument is made because usually people don't mean well of course it has something to do with Islam what they mean is it is Islam that's what they mean and that's why I think there's so much problems that's why that the problematic aspect of it you know that's why we need a different word yeah well I mean I again, I prefer religious terrorism, right? I mean, look, Dylan Ruth...

No, religious terrorism describes the act of terrorism, but some of these people who feel this way, they might not ever actually commit an act of terrorism. We needed a word

to describe this ideology. Right. Well, it's Wahhabism, isn't it? Doesn't it have a word? Sure, it depends. Well, look, I mean, the proper term for a non-state entity in Islam that takes part in the ideology that is responsible for groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS, the term for that is jihadism.

We use jihadism. We use jihadism despite the fact that it's very, it's not a, people don't like it. Muslims don't like that word because jihad doesn't mean holy war. It means something else entirely. It's about the struggle of the soul to ward off sin in order to be with God. Which could be through holy war, right? It could be through holy war. Yeah, that's one way of doing it. But unfortunately, it's become synonymous with holy war. Yeah, that's one way of doing it. But unfortunately, it's become synonymous with holy war.

However, we use the term jihadism because that's the term that they use to define themselves. But jihadism is a very distinct, very new phenomenon. Like it's barely it's not even 20 years old. And this notion of like recreating the caliphate and getting rid of nation states and reconstituting the globe as a single world order, you know, under their control. These are all very new ideas. But I think because we are so focused on acts of violence

that are carried out by brown people and by Muslims, that it's all we think about. It's not because they're brown. That's a real calumny to say to somebody who's worried about terrorism. Listen to me. I'm going to give you facts and figures if they actually matter. The Department of Homeland Security says that the single greatest threat to Americans are white nationalists.

Even if you convince... Far more. In fact, twice as many. I'm going to take that argument down. But even if you convince me that that's true, that the fear is misplaced, to read the mind and say that, well, you can't believe this for any other reason. The only reason that can explain this kind of ignorance in your argument is because these people are brown, when many of them may not even be brown. No.

This is what I'm saying, is that our focus is on whether they are brown or not. Okay, well, between 2011 and 2015, there were 89 domestic terror attacks in America. Of those 89, 11 of them were by Muslims. 14 of them were against Muslims. The rest of them were all by white nationalists. Of those 89, 44% of all media focus was on the 11 acts of terror and not on the 78 white terrorists. This is what I want to answer. First of all, on a worldwide level, you have tens of thousands of people being killed, usually brown on brown. Yeah, tens of thousands of Muslims being killed. usually brown on brown. Yeah, tens of thousands of Muslims being killed.

And they're worried about it. And I've spoken to many, many Arabs who are worried about it, worried about their family being radicalized, worried about their family. So that alone is reason to dismiss the idea that it's just because they're brown.

But more importantly, very few people die of polio anymore. More people probably die of the common cold than die of polio. We inoculate everybody against polio. We spend millions of dollars every year to protect against polio. The cold, we get as much common cold as we can, and some people die. The common cold is white nationalism. Even nationalism is, I think, a conjecture. cold as we can and some people die. The common cold is white nationalism. Even to put nationalism

is a, I think, a conjecture. But, you know, white, crazy... Supremacists. Serial killers. No, no, not serial killers. Terrorists. Mass killers. Mass shooters. I don't know if they're terrorists. I don't know what their agenda is. Maybe Dylann Roof had an agenda. I don't know.

Maybe? Well, because he also seemed to be nuts. Oh, he's nuts because he's white? No. Was the guy who drove his car, was he nuts? Hold that thought because I want to talk about that too, but I don't want to get sidetracked. That's important. I just read this. It was in a BBC. I can't even believe the number was right.

One trillion dollars a year being spent by the Western world to prevent terrorism if you want to compare it to these white cereal cars we got it to the thought experiment what if we stopped spending that one trillion dollars what if we but tsa back to the way it used to be

what if there was no more surveillance what we didn't fall anymore plus what if anybody could bring whatever they want an airplane like it used to be what what if we went back to the world before we spent this one trillion dollars let's imagine that number of terror of terrorist killings in america and then compare that to the white not to shoot because we don't spend any money to prevent them and then we can begin to determine the fact that this one trillion dollars on a worldwide basis has managed to amazingly foil and protect and prevent many many many many things. I mean you think that if after

9-11 we hadn't taken any measures that would be the last time anybody thought to put planes into the building? I find the comparison to be apples and oranges. These loner white people who decide to get an assault rifle, that's a really serious problem. That we don't do anything about. There's too many hypotheticals. Or if we didn't go to Afghanistan, if we didn't go to Iraq, there's too many hypotheticals.

But there's a lot of problems we don't do enough about. But I do not see anything, any reason in the world to talk. I'm almost finished. I don't see any reason in the world that one of those problems requires a discussion. I can talk about how to stop white serial killers all day long and never occur to me that I have to bring up Islamic terror. And I can talk about Islamic terror all day. Let's imagine another thought experiment. Let's imagine there were no white serial killers.

I love how you keep using serial killer when you talk about white people. And terror when you talk about. Let's imagine there were no white terrorists. Whatever you want to call these white people. Let's just imagine for the sake of argument that wasn't a problem over the last two, ten years. Now we have, we don't have that diversion and we now we have to deal with Islamic terror and only Islamic terror. Did Islamic terror become a bigger problem, a small? It's the same problem. The problem is no greater or less, depending on how many white people or white nationalists are killing anybody.

It's not because they're brown. It doesn't hold together. In the same sense, you had two wars. You follow me, Des? In the same sense, you have two wars against Muslims, and you have nothing against white people. Can I? You're saying that...

I'm making what I think is a very logical case that one has nothing to do with the other. It is a logical case. And they're both very serious, and not because they're brown. Well, I would just like to say that one reason that people are more afraid of radical Islam than perhaps white people,

white mass killers or terrorists, if you will, is because of 9-11 and because any ideology that can pull off 9-11, you have got to just say, oh, shit. You know, you think, I mean, these white dudes, they ain't doing no 9-11. 9-11 was such an incredibly orchestrated, required people to come to America, not even know what they're getting into.

Just like, okay, take flying lessons. Just take flying. Don't worry about it. Just take flying. Not take-off lessons. Just flying. Can I tell you something funny? And we'll tell you how to,

and then to pull that shit off. Can I tell you something funny? Oh, boy. When you asked, so throughout the Arab world, it's a known fact that Arabs don't believe that bin Laden was responsible for 9-11. They don't believe that they believe it was an inside job and all that stuff.

The Jews, you could say. And when you ask them, as I've done repeatedly, particularly in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, why? Like, why do you not believe that it was Al-Qaeda or Arabs? To a person, they would be like, there is no Arab that can pull that shit off. Like, you think we can do that? We can't even, like, get, we can't get a job. Like, there's no possibility that an Arab could have possibly done that. That's only something, it takes the sophistication of an America or a Jew.

Is that a mass inferiority complex in some way? It's just, you know, you know what it is. It's not happening. It's not us. Let me just say something back to your point real quick. Your problem is that you're inflating the costs that we have enacted against a real threat

with the level of importance or the level of danger that that threat represents. And that is absolutely false. We spend trillions of dollars because it's a profit-money-making machine. We take off our shoes at the airport despite the fact that it makes not one fucking iota of difference

because one guy tried to light his shoe. It makes no difference at all. But you can't back that up. That's your opinion, but you can't back that up. Actually, we can Google right now TSA success rates. No, no, you can't back up that. It's literally like 10% to 12% success rate. But you can't back, listen, you can stop pulling people over for speeding.

And once everybody knows there's no more cops on the road checking for speeding, you're going to see a huge increase in the average speed on the highways. Nevertheless, we know it's very easy to speed and not get caught. But what I'm saying is that you can't back up that you know that this is actually a cynical, a venal thing that people are doing. No, I think it's fear. Like Barack Obama was in the White House making decisions about national security based on

money. I think it's a gut response to an irrational fear. It's an overreaction to an irrational fear. Is there a problem of Islamic terrorism in the United States? Obviously. We have had homegrown domestic terror attacks in the United States. Not since we started spending the trillion dollars. No, yes, we have.

Much, much less. We just had one a week ago. Much, much less. We just had one a week ago. But much, much less. The point is this. Those attacks by Muslims in America absolutely are dwarfed by the number of attacks by white terrorists. Not white serial killers. Not white mentally unstable people. I mean white people.

Okay, well, let's start now. Dylan Roof was radicalized by his Christian nationalist, right-wing, white supremacist views. He walked into a church, killed nine people, including a government official. Wade Michael Page was radicalized by his Christian nationalist, white views. He walked into a Sikh temple and killed six people, probably because he thought they were Muslims. So not only was he a bigot, but he was a moron. But you've got to get to thousands to start dwarfing the last

15 years of Islamic terror. No. I'm talking about attacks on America. What about 9-11? Of course, yes. 9-11 was, as we already discussed... Is it not fair to expand it to Europe as well? Well, I mean, first of all, we're not in Europe. We're not living in Europe.

But even in Europe according to Interpol between 4 and 7 percent of terror attacks have been quote unquote as they put it religiously inspired and the rest are by white nationalists

I don't know what anybody else thinks I really have trouble with this line of thought because I want whoever makes this decision let me tell you why you have trouble with this line of reasoning because they're brown. No, no, no, no, no. Because

it's how you feel. No. Yes, it is. Let me tell you what. I'm going to tell you 100% you're wrong. I want the guy deciding how much money needs to be spent to fight terrorism. To decide how much money needs to be spent to fight terrorism based on facts and

what's presented to him by people. And you really think that that's what the decision is? No, I don't know if it is or it isn't. There is no reason in the world that when they're deciding how much money they need to infiltrate ISIS or whatever it is that they feel or websites or Stuxnet or whatever it is that they think they need to keep us safe or whatever it is that they need to say. By the way, I need to know how many people were killed last year by some white nationalists.

It is apples and oranges. One has nothing that they should spend as much as they need if possible to stop the white terrorists. Any terrorist. But the fact is that until recently and it's changing, I think, before our eyes where you have these people being radicalized alone in a room with their computer screen

and now maybe they're becoming much more similar to the white loners. Until recently, this was an organized thing where most of these white guys were by themselves. Dylann Roof famously lamented he couldn't get any other white supremacists around. He was frustrated. He tried. He went on message boards. He couldn't get any allies. So he went and shot up the church.

Now, I think the mental illness question is legitimate of a Muslim or a white person. Somewhere there is a difference between someone who was born in an ideology... I think the Orlando killer might have been an example of a mentally ill Muslim. And if he's mentally ill, I would not call him a terrorist, no matter what he claims about al-ISIS. I mean, if the reason you do something is because you have voices in your head, then the fact that you identified it with a political ideology or an agenda is a coincidence. It's random. It could have been any agenda. Can I just ask a question? Because I always think about it in terms of the IRA. Yeah, of course you do.

I was raised to think the IRA was great. Explain to the listener why. Because you're Irish? Yeah, I'm Irish-American. You know, Irish-Americans love the IRA. Then I moved to Ireland when I was 14 and all of a sudden Irish people were like, we hate the IRA. I was like, what? What are you talking about? Nobody told me that. Freedom fighters. So, but obviously

it's not a direct comparison because they had like a specific goal. And then when that goal clearly wasn't going to be realized, they compromised. Right. So now you don't get terrorism in the UK anymore. Right. You still get it in Ireland. You don't really.

I mean, it's very limited. But anyway, let's not get into that because I definitely almost as confident as Noam when it comes to those facts. Very limited. Like a tiny. Yeah. Yeah. Compared to before. Yes. Compared to before. Absolutely. But now it comes to those facts. Very limited, like tiny. Yeah, yeah. Compared to before. Yes, compared to before, absolutely.

But now it's kind of gone. So my two questions are, what are these people fighting for? And secondly, is there any hope that in the future it will fade like it did in Ireland? That's a good question. These people, he means us. No, I don't actually.

I don't. I mean terrorists. Well, let me clarify. Let me clarify. Me, I have a clear. I don't. I mean terrorists. Let me clarify. Me, I have a clear delineation between Muslims and terrorists. Right. So the IRA was a terror organization. It's what we would refer to as

religious nationalists. In other words, they, using religious ideology, had nationalist ambitions. Not global ambitions. And so a good... here's, okay. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't really religious. The perfect parallel.

It was more because they were forced into a corner because of their identity. Religion is identity. Religion is identity. Religion isn't beliefs and practices. Religion is who you think you are in the world. So it can't be separated from politics. It can't be separated from economics. It's all intertwined in the world. So it can't be separated from politics. It can't be separated from

economics. It's all intertwined in the same way. But the fundamental issue is that if you want a comparison to the IRA, Hezbollah would be a good comparison to the IRA. Hamas would be a good comparison to the IRA. These are religiously inspired terror groups who have nationalist ambitions. Hezbollah wants Lebanon. Hamas wants Palestine. The IRA wanted Ireland. Wanted unification. Now, what about Al-Qaeda? So that's exactly what I'm getting to. Yeah. So in those cases, the answer is always political accommodation. It's always when you force them in a corner, like you said, when you take away their nationalist ambitions, then they have no choice but to radicalize and respond in violence.

When you do the opposite, like Jerry Adams did, right, and say, okay, we're going to actually integrate you into the political system. We're going to allow you to be a part of the public marketplace of ideas. With rules, you have to have the rules. You've got to put your guns down. But now you can actually have a role in the government. What you see is moderation and accommodation. By the way, that's exactly what's happened to Hezbollah. Hezbollah has not been responsible for an act of terrorism ever since they've become part of the government. They are actually literally members of the government. Now they have a stake.

So that's what happens. Al-Qaeda and ISIS are a different brand. That's why we call them jihadists. They are not nationalist. They are transnationalist. Or actually, another way of describing them is anti-nationalist. Al-Qaeda has no nationalist ambitions. They don't want to build a state. They think the concept of a state is anathema to Islam. They think it's a sin to even define yourself in national terms. They want

to get rid of all states, all boundaries, all ethnicities, all nationalities. They want to reconstitute the globe in a single world order. Same thing with ISIS. So that's the difference in Islam between an Islamist group, Hamas, Hezbollah. We have nationalist ambitions. We have something concrete that we want, set of grievances that can be addressed. And a jihadist group, which is this like, we're fighting a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil over the entire nature of the planet as we know it. Are you saying this, because I might agree with you, that sometimes there's a goal.

It doesn't even have to be an attribute. It's civil rights, whatever it is. And in order to sell that goal, you call on the religion that everybody has in common that moves people. It has the most currency. Yeah, to unite people. So Martin Luther King appealed to Christian... The Civil Rights Movement was a Christian movement. And Jewish.

At first it was mostly Jews, right? Jews were at the forefront of what was a Christian movement. Why is it a Christian movement? Because it was a movement that was born and bred in the pulpits of the Deep South, of Deep South churches. Okay. Anyway, whatever. Yeah, yeah. So, but it's not, it wasn't, I mean, it was the bigotry and the wanting to overcome the bigotry.

Real grievances. Real grievances which came, which came real grievances, which came first. Right. And actually that's always kind of colored my thinking about, you know, like the Palestinians, for instance,

who might, who might, uh, dress up their anti-Israel thing in Islamic themes. I'm like, yeah, but they, but they,

they really want, it's a fight over land. And I get that. Yeah. As opposed to Al Qaeda, which really seems to be religious, pure, pure, pure religious hate. Or cosmic.

So I use the term cosmic, right? Because in their minds, in Al-Qaeda's mind, they're not fighting a real war. It's not a war between armies and for land and things like that. They're fighting a cosmic war. They're fighting a war between good and evil, a war that can only be won at the end of time, which is why things like human morality don't make any difference, right? You can kill children, you can kill women. What does it matter? Because we're not actually acting ourselves. We're just pawns in a battle between God and the devil. Here's why I think it's important to make a distinction because you said what do they think and I said well it depends on what you mean

by they because groups like Hamas groups like Hezbollah I actually mean the current problem which is like ISIS Al Qaeda and this whatever they're fighting for it's a multifaceted problem that's the thing you got to differentiate the problem

and groups that are nationalist they have very real grievances. And those grievances can be addressed. There is a possibility for political moderation. It's been done repeatedly and it can be done. Groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS who are fighting more of a war of the imagination, that's... I mean, there's no accommodation. You know what I mean? Like, there's no... So what do you do?

What does the world do? The only response is a police and military response. So it's investigative work, and in cases where it's necessary to stop genocide, it's a military response. And support the Muslim world when they were fighting them first. And they're still fighting them now.

It's so funny how America is patting itself on the back for destroying ISIS. ISIS is destroyed. I mean, its ideology exists, but the organization is gone. Who do you think destroyed ISIS? America. No.

Syrians. Syrians. Iraqis. Iranians. Lebanese. Muslims. America just opened the jar, but they've been loosening it the whole time. But the problem is that... We did help, right? I mean, it's a joint effort.

You did send PlayStations, but you know... I mean, those big bunker busting bombs, that was America, right? But Russia helped too. In the beginning, they were freedom fighters. And they were like the Muslim Brotherhoods, for example. Some of them are great, some of them are using violence. And Obama supported them. So they get to Egypt, for example.

They allowed ISIS to take all over Sinai, training camps, all that. And now we're fighting to get them back out. Speaking of war to the end of time, we're basically almost out them back out you know so speaking of war till the end of time we're basically almost out of time based on what time you committed to us

and I was kind of hoping to see you guys fight about something we can fight about something there's gotta be something are you Sufi? well no Sufis are fucking ridiculous

go ahead we can have an Arab Persian fight easily I don't like the word jihad that he uses jihadist all, all the time, for example. Because it's a good word.

Well, but that ship has sailed. Jews, stay out of this. You're already close enough. The only time I ever heard him use the word... That's like saying gay means happy. I mean, it's over. The only time I ever heard him use the word jihad was when he was telling me about his date the night before.

His sex life. I don't like it either, but, you know. And now, a question with regard to, do we have any more time? Well, he has to go, I think. We can talk about it real quick. Well, okay. Now, these white folk that are causing something of a stir down there with them guns, we can't throw them out.

They're here, and that's that. So, you know, I mean, whatever. We can lock them up, and we are locking them up. But with regard to people coming into America, we can be restrictive and cautious. And so where do you stand on extreme vetting? Look, we already do, quote-unquote, extreme vetting. We, look, we already do quote-unquote extreme

vetting. The idea that like our borders are completely open and anybody can just walk in here is a fucking lie that this orange clown keeps repeating over and over again until people start believing that that's true. Our refugee, the process for a refugee to come to America

is so unbearably restrictive. It takes years and years and years for someone fleeing genocide to finally get into this country. Making it a little bit harder makes no difference at all. And, by the way, there has never been, ever, ever, an attack on America by any refugee. Ever. It's first generation. There has never been an attack on America, by the way, by anyone on any of President Trump's banned list of countries. Has there ever been an attack thwarted on America by any of these people?

I don't know the answer. Because I always tell myself, well, you know, they thwart a lot of attacks. Do they, though? According to, you know, what I've read. I think that, look, we don't have time for this. I don't know the answer. I'm not saying yes or no.

We didn't get into Islamophobia. We didn't even get to deal with that. Next week. Well, maybe Reza will come back one day. Absolutely. It's a pretty good conversation. Well, maybe Reza will come back one day. Absolutely. It's a pretty good conversation. It's a perfect conversation. I don't know that if Reza's used to

you know, not having his ass kissed. I am not used to it. And I would appreciate if you all... We really ran at him, but good. Have you seen his interviews with Fox News? Oh, you've done interviews with Fox News? Oh, my God.

Yeah, I've done. With who? Are you feuding with Ben Shapiro? No, no, no. That's not me. Who did you interview on Fox News? It was Lauren Green. It was a viral interview in 2013.

Oh, she plays the piano. I think I saw it, actually. I wrote a book about Jesus, and she didn't think that I should have done that. Why? Because you're not Christian? Exactly, yeah. Oh, that's silly. Wait, speaking of books, did I mention that I have a book out now?

You did at the beginning, but I think it's worth repeating. It's called God, A Human History, and it's about the human history of God. I'm going to order it. That does sound interesting. I look forward to reading it. But I want you to sign it for me next time you come. Absolutely. Is that a deal? Thanks, you guys.

By the way, I thought this was an interesting episode. What our listeners will think, I don't know, because this is a comedy-oriented... It was funny. They listened to Marin's podcast. He was on Marin's podcast. This is such an important conversation. Why would you care if it's funny or not?

I wanted to research on Marin, but it was premium, and I couldn't... Yeah, you got to pay for it. But some people would prefer we focus on the business of stand-up and the world of stand-up. Some people, he means that. Pardon? Sir, if we continue, I know you have to go. It was truly a pleasure and an honor.

Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you so much. All right, take care. Nice to meet you. The food here is not halal, but it's free if you want it. Yeah, if you want to have dinner or you want to see a comedy show. I'll come back, but I got to...

We can wrap it up. Hatem, you got anything else you want to say about... We can talk about Reza now. No. He seems like a nice chap. He was awesome. A little misguided, man. No, no, he's really...

He's been recently all over TV and stuff in the Arabic world defending Islam because of his interview with CNN. I don't know if you saw it. I didn't see it. An interview with Fox. They both attack him

because he's Muslim. So he had a great response to it. So he's been like a big thing in the Arabic world lately. You need a guy like him. He's a real coup, man. I think we gave it to him

harder than he's used to getting it. That's what I said. The last time I was on you did the same. You come straight out. Well, man. I think we gave it to him harder than he's used to getting it. The last time I was on, you did this thing. You come straight out. Why am I going to... No, it's very entertaining. I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying that's your method.

Let me tell you. I have a guy here. He's a thinker. I don't want to patronize him. I'm nobody. I got the impression he was very happy with your method. I didn't think he was bothered. No intellectual should be. I wouldn't be. He would use big words and me and, I didn't think he was bothered. No intellectual should be.

I wouldn't be. He would use big words and me and Dan would be like, okay. Dan gets them. It was just you. Well, I'm a native English speaker. Hatem is his second language. How do you know? Well, I believe you're an Arabic speaker.

Maybe it's a third language. Or a third language. So it's obviously some of the words he won't get. Is it possible for us to find, can you get us a real ISIS guy to meet and talk to? Oh, that would be interesting. Before or after? What do you mean before?

No. No, I mean, I'd like to meet, like Donahue in the old days used to have KKK guys. Well, here's the problem. The Brown thing, that really bothers me. You know, I spoke to...

Well, there was a very interesting thing on NPR today about if you look at ISIS and Al-Qaeda as doomsday cults, it's a lot easier for you to get your head around what they're thinking. I mean, I'm worried about it.

The very accusation, and it's because... Like, I care what color they are. If it was a KKK, I'd be okay with it. Why can't we use it, you know? This is our defense line. Like, you use anti-Semitic. We'll use brown. That's interesting, because I was going there.

Because it used to be the argument was that we can't be anti-Semitic, Arabs would say, because Jews are Semites. We're Semites too. Does that mean that we're brown people? The Jews are brown people? You just want to be into anything. You guys want to be part of everything. Speaking of the ISIS guy or whatever, I spoke to the lady that, you know, follow.

You remember the one we had in the first episode? The problem is the Homeland Security is going to follow us here. So we'll go to the lady that, you know, follow, you remember the one we had in the first episode? Yeah. The problem is the Homeland Security is going to follow us here. You know what I'm saying? So we'll go to the mosque. We'll take the remote crew to the mosque.

Anyway, we got, why not? We got to wrap it up. Anything, Des, you got any final? No,

I, I, I, Well, what do you think? About in general? Do you have any? No,

I mean, I think, Did you learn anything today? Yeah, I mean, the earlier part of the conversation was very interesting about consciousness. I mean, if we had kept on that, I'd still be of the opinion like,

why the fuck do we need to figure it out? We don't know. We're just making guesses. Our lives are not richer by sort of living a charade. Did you understand why he feels he's a Muslim? No, that's the one thing I'm disappointed is we didn't finish that. We tried. There may not be an answer to that question.

Because it's such an ancient, all the main religions. Maybe it's just better for book sales. No. Because, you know, Muslims in style now. It's a hot topic. I will presume to tell you what the reason is. Okay. Lincoln said the mystic court of memory is something inside us that we long to be part of what we are.

Yeah, belonging. I wanted to bring that up about the sense of belonging and how important it is. I mean, he was born Muslim. And in the end, that's what he's most comfortable with. Because that's what he knows. Or maybe it's just the right decision. Or maybe just he has it. Yeah, maybe he wants to be right.

Let's end on that note. Dan? Say goodnight, Dan. Say goodnight, Dan. Say goodnight. Goodnight. Goodnight, everybody.