The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Rich Vos and an ACLU Lawyer

Episode Date: October 21, 2016

Rich Vos and an ACLU Lawyer

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM Channel 99, Raw Dog. We're here at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. My name is Norm Dorman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. I'm here with my friend and co-host, Mr. Dan Natterman. And we have some comedians and a woman from the ACLU is here. Hopefully she's going to come sit down. What's up with you this week, Daniel? Well, first of all, I was interested in knowing what your opinion was with regard to the recent awarding of the Nobel Prize for Literature to Bob Dylan.

It's an unusual choice, obviously, but I thought you might have some interesting thoughts about it. What's your thought? Well, my first thought was it was ridiculous. But then today I went and I went online. I kind of looked up the lyrics to a couple of his songs, and in particular, The Times They Are a Changing, and I kind of changed my mind. I was reading like, this shit is good.

This motherfucker's good. You know, the line that is drawn, the curse. Because I said to myself, well, if there was no music at all, you just were reading the lyrics, absent any music, would this be good poetry? Yeah. And so I started to read, the line that is drawn, the curse that is cast, the slowest now will later be fast.

As the present now will later be past, the order is rapidly fading. And the first one now will later be last, because at times they are a chance. Yeah, I think that would be good. Yeah, that is one of the great stanzas. Is that what you call it? I guess so. Yeah, I don't

know. I mean, at first I didn't even know that literature... I didn't even know what literature meant. Do you know what literature is? I thought it was stories and books and stuff. I didn't realize it was... Well, I thought it was books, but then somebody said, well, poems can be literature too.

So I said, well, if that's the case... Yeah, I agree. I didn't even know that poems were literature. That's how stupid I am. But then they do teach these poems as independent works. The problem with me is that I don't understand poetry.

I think it's all... Eh. So, but if people who like poetry and know poetry say that this is great poetry, world-class poetry, then yeah, why not? Just because they put it to music doesn't mean it's any less a poem.

No, no, it doesn't mean it's less a poem. What it does mean is that people might be influenced by the music. That is, they might hear it as a song and be like, this is great. Sometimes you hear a song and it sounds cool, but then if you read it as words on a page without music, you'd be like, oh. They teach it as poetry. I know that they teach some Dylan works as discrete poetry.

My kids have a storybook, which is the lyrics to Gone with the Wind, and they made that into a book. I don't know. I mean, that's on one hand. On the other hand, it's hard to believe that if he weren't a famous musician that they would be awarding him this prize just for his poetry.

But maybe, you know. I mean, it doesn't seem like Robert Frost to me. You know, it's closer to a bawdy limerick than it is to Robert Frost. But anyway, I don't know. What do you think? Do you think it's all right? Well, as I said, at first I thought it was ridiculous, but then I read a couple, and I read some lyrics to Like a Rolling Stone,

and I thought, well, yeah, this seems to stack up with the poetry I read. You never read the poetry you were supposed to read. No, I don't. I know some of the basics. The love song of J. Albert Prufrock. Did you ever read that in college? No. It's horrible.

All right, so who should we bring? Well, I also had another just quick question for you. I'm in another conundrum, and this is reminiscent of a couple of other situations that I had with regard to Amy Schumer and Louis C.K. So they asked me to do the Michael J. Fox every year. They have a gala for Parkinson's. Oh, by the way, hold on. Jim, can I ask you a question?

Jim Norton says, you don't have to do this on here if you don't want to. Was that your interview that Donald Trump Jr. got in trouble for that went all over the radio? It might have been, yeah. There was a one of them I was in. I don't know if I was in that one. One of them I was in for. But he's been on so many times. And he said something about a two thumbs up for the

movie in Aurora or something? I don't know if I was in for that one. I know there was one. I emailed him, invited him if he wanted to come on in the morning with me and Sam. But I'm not retweeting them. Stern said he's not going to retweet Trump's interviews because he let the media do their own homework. It feels backstabbing, and I agree.

So I'm not trying to get notoriety from the radio show off it, but if he wanted to come on and talk, it wouldn't be a gotcha interview. That to me is kind of backstabby to have guests on and then fuck them as soon as something bad happens. Absolutely it is, especially when, at the time it was said, you were all laughing and thought it was just regular irreverent humor. Absolutely, and I knew it was in humor, yeah. I don't remember those interviews, though.

So you think he's getting a bum rap? Oh, yeah, I think that's what they do. But don't forget the Trump's having a voting record so they've got to go after him for something. It's not like with Hillary there's a lot more to go after just because she's had such a voting record. And history and politics.

With Trump it's got to be personal shit and other things. It's hard to get him on his business. It's got to be non-political stuff because he's not a politician. Rich Voss just said, we're talking about Trump's son. Besides all that, we'll get back to that. Can I just

say something? You invited me here to do this podcast today. It's a radio show. Go ahead. Okay, a radio show. Whatever the fuck this low-budget bullshit is. You invited me here to do it. Mine's low-budget. Go ahead. No, let me just say something. Lash out. Go ahead. You invited me here.

I drove from Jersey. You see me walk in. You start it and don't say, hey, we're doing the podcast. Come over. Dan likes to do 10 minutes at the top. Yeah, so you basically just invited yourself on. No, I was invited here. No, not at this moment you weren't. They were going to call you in.

Oh. Why do you keep lowering the mic? He just sat me down for a second because our clips have been on the news because of Trump Jr. See, Jim was actually in the national news this week. Yeah, so was I. So I thought it warranted. You were too? Yeah, it's a Megan's Law thing, though. Yeah.

Thanks, Jim. I didn't mean to lash out. I'm sorry. That's okay. So what was it? So Dan wanted to say one other thing. Now sit down. You're here, Rich.

Sit down. I'm going to pee. Go ahead. What was the other thing you wanted to say, Dan? Well, I down. You're here, Rich. Sit down. I'm going to pee. Go ahead. What was the other thing you wanted to say, Dan? Well, I said that Michael J. Fox has his yearly gala for Parkinson's. Yes. So it's like, you know, it's a fundraiser. Right.

So Gerard Small is doing, not Gerard Small, Gerard Carmichael. Oh, God. Yeah, go ahead. I combined the two names. Gerard Carmichael. And the Dave Matthews man will be there. So they invited me to do it, to do comedy, do 10 minutes. And then afterwards hang out with Michael and his wife.

And there's always celebrities there. Right. And there's like a red carpet thing beforehand. I don't know. But you have a 1215 spot at the... No. Tom Papa's done it and said he was sitting next to Julianne Moore. Whatever.

Anyway. And then there's a potential corporate gig I have in California that just came up. That may or may not happen, but I'm told it looks pretty good. Right. It pays several thousand dollars. So once again, I find myself in this kind of a situation that I found myself in. The Michael J. Fox pays nothing. Pays zero, yeah.

But you could sit next to Danny DeVito or something. Well, you can see, you know, it's a fun event and maybe there's people there that can help me. I don't know. I'm told that Michael's a fan of mine, which may or may not be the case. It may well be that they're just saying that to get me to do it for free. Or it may be that he's seen me on TV and said, I want this guy. I don't know. I think he's probably seen you somewhere, and he's a fan.

Greg Rogel sat down. Go ahead, Greg. Sorry. So anyway, so the question is, you know, the question is, what should I do? I have no idea. I'd say take the money. You'd say take the money. Several thousand is nothing to sneeze at.

I say do the Michael J. Fox. You say, and why would you say that? Because I was sitting here when Tom was talking to you. It sounds like a fun gig, and you'll always have opportunity to make money. I mean, if you're in dire need for the cash, take the cash. But other than that, this could be a good opportunity for you, and I would recommend doing the Michael J. Fox gig.

He would know better. I would take his word for it. Interesting point of view, but I thought Noam would actually be on the side of... Because Noam's always like, well, you know, life is not just about making money. It's about experiences that are interesting. I agree with that. Two things. First of all, I was kind of answering it from your point of view because I know how

you prioritize things. Second of all, I've done a lot of fundraiser type things and they never pan out to be an opportunity or as...

The reasons they give you are never as compelling once you actually go through it. I mean, but if sitting next to Julianne Moore, as Tom said, would be worth more to you than the few thousand dollars, absolutely. But if you think you're going to meet some movie director, I doubt it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not just to Julianne Moore. I just, maybe somebody somewhere can, you know, help me, offer me another gig that might pay money.

Yeah, I wouldn't look at it as an opportunity. You just see it as a fun thing. As a, yeah, cool,

a cool gig to do. You know, and you make, you get some photos and you throw it up on Instagram and people, people like it

and, you know, I mean, it's, you know, I think it would be a fun thing, but,

but, but money is money. So, so, you know. How many several thousand? That's none of my business, but if it's 3,000 or more, I think you should take the gig.

Okay, it's 3,000 or more. Yeah, what do you think, Greg? But Greg is still on the side of... Well, if you really need the money, do it. But you know, doing corporate gigs, you're going to hate it. Right, it's not for fun. You're going to be torturing yourself for money. Is the Michael J. Fox gig here in New York? Yeah, take the Michael J. Fox gig.

I mean, I know how you are on the road. Unless you really need the money. The Michael J. Fox gig is something that doesn't really come along that often. And you might enjoy it. Can you get Rich Voss downstairs? He went downstairs to pee. Maybe you'll wake up next to Julianne Moore. I know he's older, but it doesn't make this long.

Well, if I knew that that was going to happen, I would do it. But, of course, that's not a likelihood. I think either way you're going to be unhappy. Come on, Rich. Take the one where you don't have to travel as much. Well, thank you, Greg, for that point of view. Move on. You might as well join us since Kristen's out with Greg Rogel.

We have Rich Voss. Come on, Rich. By the way, I know our regular listeners are wondering whether the kitchen is completed. And it is not. But we still hope spring's eternal. Did you alert your listeners that Mike is not dead? Mike the bum is not dead. Crazy Mike is not dead.

I feel really bad that I came in and I just cranky. You're at your best when you're cranky. What'sy. You're at your best when you're cranky. What's that? You're at your best when you're cranky. You're not, oh, she's drinking a beer. She's going to get loose lips, sink ship. So first of all, we have a woman from the American Civil Liberties Union. She's a lady and a lawyer?

I have a dude's name if it would make you all more comfortable in your safe space over here. I see it as a unisex name. As I said, I have an aunt with your name. What's your name? Lee. Hi, Lee. Lee, are you around November 2nd? Because we're doing a live show at the Village Underground.

My wife hates me. Is this the way you promote yourself? Yes. 10 o'clock at the Village Underground. Do I have to be like the titular wife and stand on stage and be a shrew or something? No big words with him, okay? Okay. I'm sorry.

I don't think he's a matrimonial. She's not a matrimonial. Do you have iTunes? This is a weird inquiry. Do you have iTunes? Yeah, I think so. Wait, I have Apple Music. Is that the same thing?

Yeah, because tomorrow my new CD 5 is up for pre-sale and it's coming out the 28th. Okay, I'll make you a bargain. I'm going to break the internet. You can email me and let me know when you listen to one of my oral arguments and then I'll listen to your new comedy. I have some bones to pick with the ACLU. I doubt any of them are legit.

I agree with you, by the way. I mean, if you're going to do a Second Amendment diatribe, Jesus. Gentlemen, I mean, ladies. First of all, your name, please. Lee, but I don't know your last name. My name is Lee Rowland. Lee Rowland, and you are a counsel for the ACLU?

Sure, I'm an attorney. And have you ever argued in front of the Supreme Court? I have not. I'm just curious about that. And you have an interest in stand-up comedy and a history of censorship in stand-up comedy? Who doesn't? But you have knowledge about this stand-up comedy and a history of censorship in stand-up comedy? Who doesn't? But you have knowledge about this?

I do. Medium knowledgeable. I hope you guys give me a hard time. Okay. If I try and wax you on. Yeah, I'm knowledgeable. So you may not know this, but in the old days, comedians couldn't say dirty words. They used to get in trouble.

They'd been arrested at times for saying things, correct? Oh, yeah. So tell us a little bit about the history of stand-up comedy. Well, comedy has really defined a lot of the edges of the First Amendment. It's kind of awesome. Back in the day... Rich, the First Amendment is part of the Constitution. It means that you can have free speech.

Go ahead. Number one comes before the number two. No, no, that is fair. I should not take that for granted. You're talking to the wrong person when it comes to this because I'm so pro First Amendment. But I want to let her talk before I give my argument because my argument might be wrong. She might shoot it down and say I'm coming from the wrong perspective.

That's why I have to talk to her about it. Hold on. By the way, Dan and I are lawyers as well, although we never practiced. Non-practice. Very smart lawyers then. Yes. Okay. Do you want me to? Yeah, although we never practice. Non-practice. Very smart lawyers then. Yes. Okay. Do you want me to?

Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So particularly back in the 60s, but it happened through the 70s too, there were a number of really high-profile obscenity prosecutions for comedians, entertainers, writers. So the first really famous one was a poem named Howl by Lawrence Valengeti. Not technically a comedian, but it's really important because it was the first big obscenity case at the Supreme Court.

And what was his crime? His crime was writing a poem called Howl that had some sexually explicit lyrics or words. It was kind of a lyric poem. And sexually explicit by that day's standards, probably not by today's standards. He was a beat poet, so we're not talking about dropping the F-bomb all the time. He was just describing sex. He just described sex in some of his passages.

Well, I'll tell you what, describing sex is usually, depending on how descriptive you are, can be a lot more offensive to people than just saying fuck. The name of the poem is Howl? The name of the poem is Howl. Maybe you can pull up a passage. Yeah, I'm going to pull it. Go ahead.

Find something dirty to read. This is my wife. Hold on. We may have to... This may be an emergency. Hello? I hope it's not... I'm doing my radio show.

I'm on the radio right now. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Good night. Good night. I love you.

Daddy's on the radio. Okay. Okay. I love you. Daddy's on the radio. Okay. Bye. Bye. You always got to take your kid's call. Okay. Well, I didn't know it was my kid's call. Okay.

But you did. You did the right thing. Well, she called three times in a row, so I thought it might have been an emergency. No, it was a late in life dad. He had little ones. All right. All right. Oh, I'm sorry.

All right. So go ahead. I'm going to look up Hal. Yeah, look up Hal. What right. So go ahead. I'm going to look up Howl. What's the name of the author? It's Lawrence Ferlinghetti. There's some hidden G's and H's in there because it's satanic. Google can get it. All right.

Let me make sure I don't skip one. Okay. Hold on. I'm pulling out my CliffsNotes. Lawrence Ferlinghetti. So then the first time we get to comedy is right after Howl, and that's Lenny Bruce. And Lenny Bruce was charged with obscenity. He actually had four trials for obscenity over the course of his comedy career.

And the only trial where he got acquitted by the jury, he was found not guilty, he was represented by an ACLU lawyer named Al Bendick, who was a giant and also represented Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the bookstore that was selling Howl, his book of poems. So Al Bendick and the ACLU were basically really intent on expanding the right of people not to be arrested for a stand-up show. Wait, this says Howl's by Allen Ginsberg, which is what I recalled. That's right. Oh, no.

Stephen! I know. That's right. Lawrence Ferlinghetti owned the bookstore that was publishing Howl. Lawrence Ferlinghetti was the name in the case. Yeah, Ferlinghetti is the guy who was actually charged with obscenity for holding and selling the book Howl by Ginsberg. Actually, I'm in an age now where when anybody makes a mistake of memory lapse, it makes me feel better about myself. Because I always feel like anybody who gets to their 50s understand like, oh,

even someone much younger can make the same kind of dumb mistake because if I just made that mistake, I'd say, I'm done. You know what? I'm so obsessive compulsive. I'll open a soda bottle and I have to hear it click and then five minutes later I'll go, did I open that? Oh, you're worried about getting tampered with?

Yeah, that's more obsessive compulsive. I do that. But it's also me forgetting, and I'll bring it back to the store going, this was open. I'm not sure if I opened it, but I'm not taking that. I don't care about that stuff.

Well, I'm really sorry. You know, you get what you pay for with your cut-right expert over here. You don't have to apologize. I'm so sorry, but Ferengetti was the guy who was charged with production of obscenity by selling the book. We have an audience, by the way.

This young woman seems to be quite enraptured of our... And vice versa. Steven, is that a friend of yours? Wasn't Bruce arrested in North Carolina one time

or was it all New York? I'm not actually sure. And the one where we represented him was in California, so I know they were all New York. So I know it was out of state,

but I don't know if... This was obviously well before your time at the ACLU. My father saw. Behind a partition in a Turkish bath when the blonde and naked angel came to pierce them with a sword, who lost their love boys to three old shrews of fate, that one-eyed shrew of the heterosexual dollar, the one-eyed shrew that winks out of the womb. I don't know if this is symbolic for genitals or something, or it doesn't seem dirty to me.

Well, you're just not being creative, I guess. The type is also very small. Apropos, we were discussing, by the way, before you sat down, Dylan's winning of the Nobel Prize for Literature and whether his lyrics are poetic. And I think they can certainly stack up to what Noam just read.

So anybody, did you see the movie Lenny? I played Lenny Bruce on American Dreams. I played the character. Remember the show with Dick Clark, American Band, Stan America? Yeah. I played Lenny Bruce on one episode. Really?

Yeah. So I did a lot of studying about Lenny Bruce. So he got, by the way, I the way, I don't find Lenny Bruce funny. Do you find Lenny Bruce funny? I find him way ahead of his time. I think you're comparing him to what's going on now. Some people say that about Hicks.

You're talking about the 60s. You're talking about the 60s where this guy was breaking barriers and opening up doors and saying things that nobody was saying. Whether it's complete. Whether it's funny. But whether it's, you know, laugh out loud funny, it's definitely you're sitting there going, wow. Okay, but Shakespeare is still funny.

Oscar Wilde is still funny. Shakespeare is not funny. In 50 years, Andrew Dice Clay is going to be on the currency. I guarantee you. By that metric. Shakespeare is not funny. In 50 years, Andrew Dice Clay is going to be on The Currency. I guarantee you. By that metric. And Trump becomes president. I mean, what I know, yes, there is Lenny Bruce funny, but it's hard now because you're so, you know, your mind has seen so much comedy, your brain for the last 20 years, that you'll hear Lenny Bruce and you'll compare it to Louis C.K. Even like Pryor.

I love Pryor, but I haven't seen him in years, and I actually watched him about a year ago, and I've seen it all before. You know what I mean? It looks like heck to me now. But he was the first one to do it. But he was the first one to do it, and it was brilliant at its time, but it just doesn't hold up when you've seen so much comedy over the years.

Well, whether or not it's good comedy, if it pushes the boundaries, it makes good law. So we've got that to thank. Seriously, the reason that it was Howl by Allen Ginsberg, for those listening, or whether it was Lenny Bruce, these were pushing the boundaries. Whether or not people thought it was valuable art, it was art that was different. It was new. It was challenging.

And there's no surprise that those bits of art made up First Amendment law in the 60s, basically. Is there anything today that's just, obviously there's visual images that are illegal, but is there anything illegal today that is just verbal in the entertainment context? That is such a good question. My answer would be no. And if anybody gets a charge, the ACLU would consider representing you. But it's not that easy of a question. So basically what happened,

we talked a little bit about the 60s. That's old school stuff. In the 70s, the Supreme Court designed a new test for what obscenity meant. And because we're sex obsessed, they basically said we have no idea what it is, but we know it's something sexual. And so obscenity, first of all,

only applies to stuff that turns you on. The word is prurient in the law, but it literally just means like gives you a boner. That's just fancy legal word for it. So the test got narrowed, right? It's now only sexy stuff. I just felt a twitch when she said that. Go ahead. I told you I was invading your safe space.

So we have this idea that it's prurient, but we don't know what it is. And then Pacifica, this really famous Supreme Court case happened in the late 70s, which is Carlin's seven dirty words. And the question was, can the FCC be fined for running the seven dirty words segment? So since the late 70s, it's really taken a turn that it's not criminal charges for people who speak. We're mostly beyond that era. It's now about do we find the regulated agencies who allowed it to go on the air? Do we allow Hulk Hogan to bring a civil suit?

The questions are different, but I think it's fair to say there are no words you can be thrown at you. And certainly in a live show like we do here at the Comedy Cellar, there's obviously nothing you could be charged with no matter what you sit down. I'm assuming you're not issuing true threats to the audience. I have some questions for you, first of all. First of all, I almost said this without thinking, and then I realized

that I'm actually looking at you, and my first gut was that you're a conservative, which is so weird because the ACLU was always considered liberal. But in today's day and age, the ACLU keeping its views constant, you guys are getting closer and closer to the right in terms of where you are, which school of thought believes what you believe.

I think most people on the right would disagree with that. Well, the ACLU supported Citizens United. The ACLU doesn't believe in political correctness. The ACLU doesn't believe in safe spaces, in microaggressions, in any of this stuff. Well, I think we believe in them. Which part of the political

spectrum lines up with that? Conservatives. We do racial justice work. We do transgender discrimination work. We do equal protection work. It do transgender discrimination work. We do equal protection work. It's really just the speech that is the leftover old school civil liberty. A lot of our docket is obviously progressive. And so my work is an outlier

in some ways. See, I see the ACLU differently. I see them that they're almost a branch of the Democratic Party because I never now I don't know if you'll speak out or just take a case, but I've never heard the ACLU speak out, and maybe I'm wrong, when it comes to stuff like when Imus was thrown under the bus or Tracy Morgan or the guy on Commie Central that talked about rape. Those are all legal questions. We're a civil liberties organization.

We care when the government squelches speech. That didn't happen in any of those cases. You know who the government did come after? Rush Limbaugh, and we stood up for him. Okay. But you don't give opinions on matters that affect freedom of speech? Like, say I'm on stage. Well, I can't use Canada because they have

a different law. They get sued for whatever they are. Yeah. Say I'm on stage. I say something. I'm going to get sued. Not sued. Just my career is down the tube. You guys don't give your opinions like saying, hey, he's allowed to say what. Unless

you don't take the case, you don't have an opinion on something. No, because defending the First Amendment is not the same as defending all assholes who exercise their First Amendment rights. The First Amendment is a protection against the government's attempt to censor people. I'm not waking up in the morning to go and be like, it's a goddamn shame Billy Bush got fired. That gentleman should have been able to say whatever he wanted. Well, but why is it only the government? Like, say I get fired from a company because of a First Amendment right. Well, it's not

a First Amendment right. Your company has First Amendment rights, too. It's only the government that's constrained by the Constitution in that way. Okay, so you won't take a personal matter against a private company. No, because there's no constitutional right at issue. Both of you have free speech rights. It's just a pissing contest over who asked for it.

Do you take my divorce? No. Because my wife wanted to get a word in edgewise. I'm sure you were correct. Well, I mean, because I, you know, someone like Kunstler, who was an ACLU lawyer. How can you say Kunstler? Kunstler. And same with Kubi.

Very far left wing. Very far left. But when I heard, when I hear Kubi talk, he does, he will stick up for the Klan to march. He will stick up for the Black Panthers. But he is completely as far left as any communist you've ever, in my opinion, you've ever heard.

Yeah, I think that's fair for me. I consider myself a far left civil libertarian, which means on all social issues, I'm way to the crazy left of the spectrum. On anything when it comes to civil liberties, privacy, speech, I want the government to have a really good goddamn reason for constraining our liberty. And I demand that of them. And I don't think those values are in tension.

So my next question, and this is where I, because I'm pretty absolute on free speech. Obviously, I make my living here. But I have to say. Everybody loves to say that. Nobody's a bigger supporter of the First Amendment than I am. No, I mean, I own a comedy club. No, I know. You're probably telling the truth. So, I mean, it's very important to me.

Nonetheless, I have to tell you, I've heard the phrase, nobody likes the First Amendment more than me, but probably a thousand plus times in my career. All right. Be that as it may, but I am actually going to bring up a case where I don't know how I feel about it, which is I'm afraid to go to sleep. My children sometimes get into bed with me and I'm watching whatever.

And I'm afraid to go to sleep with the TV on with them because in the middle of the night they may wake up and I have no idea what kind of trash is going to show up on that screen at three in the morning. No matter what station I have on, unless it's Disney. Right. And music videos and all this stuff. And I do have some sympathy for protecting children from prurient topics, from language, from images. How do you feel about that? Like, I feel like comedians should have no children

and should do a lot of cocaine. And people who have, like, changed course on either of those have become dramatically unfunny. You're 100% wrong. Really? Who's really funny? I have three kids and I'm 30 years sober. And I kill on stage. Okay.

That's fair. Hey, take it easy now. You got really sensitive about that. No, no. He did. That was really cut deep for you. And this dummy here, TVs,

these TVs, Blashing out again. TVs you could set to turn off on their own. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's my answer is that every moral conservative uses that kind of example

to justify restrictions on speech. They do. That's just the truth. You can, it is possible to set them to shut off on their own, but the point is that you would like to know

that you can, without having, because you can forget. You can fall asleep. You would like the government to protect you from instances where you forget to change the channel to something appropriate for you to fall asleep to when your kid's in the room. And I just got to disagree with you that that's a valid request. How about pornography? You draw a line of pornography. What line? No.

So that's what I'm saying. So are you saying that my four-year-old, and I'm not arguing on that, should be able to flip the channels, and in flipping the channels should be able to see full frontal sexual combat? I do. The Supreme Court does not. It doesn't matter what I think. The Supreme Court has said the FCC has an interest in keeping really indecent stuff at your home. So you think it's okay for a five-year-old to see rough sex? No, that's a straw man argument.

I think it's the parent's job to make sure the five-year-old doesn't see hard work. But you can't. Are we going to have a world where you can't let your kid flip through the channels? Well, do you think a five-year-old should live in a house where you've got to get up and flip the channels? Do you think a five-year-old should live in a house that has a remote? Yeah. What kind of place does this guy run? I don't know.

I get your joke. I get it. No, my kid is, my nine-year-old is on her iPad all day long. I can't sit on top of her and see what site she's going to all the time. Hopefully, we say, listen, if it's bad, you don't do it. Hopefully, she's going to the Disney sites. It's not just, what about snuff films? Hold on a sec. Love them. You don't do it. Hopefully she's going to the Disney sites. It's not just, it's not just that. What about snuff films?

And the rule, hold on a sec. Love them. You guys. There's no, there's no such thing as snuff films. Yeah. No one's ever actually done a snuff film.

Clearly you don't have the Fios ultimate package. In other words, my, my, my children can't distinguish. My, my, my,

my daughter is upset. She thinks Willy Wonka died. She can't, she can't distinguish between an actor and, and real life. And imagine showing a child being strangled to death on TV. I'd rather not. Is it really a violation of our civil liberties

to say, well, there are some limits to protect children? The Supreme Court doesn't think so. But every single restriction on the First Amendment has been made in the name of children. So I think you might imagine how, as a First Amendment attorney, I'm a little skeptical to the children arguments. They disagree with me. The FCC does ban indecency over broadcast networks. They can't ban it over the Internet, by the way.

They're completely different. And the reason is because the ACLU fought to keep the government's mitts off the Internet in the same way they have them over the FCC and broadcast cable. So what you are saying right now is actually the Supreme Court's position. Tattoo, by the way. Let me tell you a possible, let me ask you this because... I see. Is that a tattoo you have? Yeah. No, I just never expected her to have a tattoo.

Why not? Apparently you guys think I'm like a right-wing conservative. No, I don't think that at all. Let me ask you a thing. I just wouldn't have expected it. I think you're a moderate person. What if it were... What does a tattoo say?

Dan, really? It's a wing and it's on her left hand. All right, you take it, Dan. It's called the Mandelbrot set and it is God theory and fractal physics. I know Mandelbrot. Okay, there you go. Yes, that's fractals.

Fractal, yeah. All right, anyway. No one was pissed off. I really am pissed off. Well, you do the same thing to me Because we have differing visions Unfortunately This happens from time to time

So go ahead I'm going with your vision You have a vision Or you just want to Interrupt her tattoo Go ahead Dan First of all I think it's interesting

That this woman has a tattoo Do you have any other tattoos? I do I have many Listen we got a Fucking ACLU lawyer In your talk We don't have a rock star Do you have any piercings

you could tell us about slowly? Well, first of all, we've kind of, as far as comedy, we've gotten to the bottom of this. There should be. Oh, bottom of this. I want to ask one last question

because this upsets me. Oh, go ahead. What if it were to be shown that what I'm describing is actually harmful to children? By whose standards? Everyone on the right agrees it's harmful. No, no.

What if by the same kind of consensus that we have on global warming, science were to come to the conclusion that seeing violent images and pornographic images before a certain age is harmful psychologically to children? Except every study has actually found exactly the opposite. You are an attorney, right? You can do hypotheticals. But is it really valuable for us to have a

conversation about if reality were upside down, would we agree to a different set of rules for our society? Yes, because what it would bring out is whether or not you're an absolutist or you think you're not an absolutist, you just are happy to live in a world where science doesn't show that. Would you compromise? I'm more of an absolut, and I'm not a free speech absolutist because I think there are no dangers to free speech. I think that college students who have to walk down the quad and be called the N-word are experiencing harm. I still think our society is better

when we don't criminalize people for using that kind of language. And as far as your kids, I think it's your job, and I don't mean to be rude. I think if studies show you that your kid's going to be damaged by porn, you should probably just turn the TV off before you pass out. As far as being damaged by porn, there's more than a few examples right here at the Comedy Cell. No.

It fucked us all up sexually. I don't watch porn. Neither do I. I was never big on porn. It does nothing. Here's the question. I really don't watch porn. Neither do I. I'm not a big fan. Why are't, it does nothing. Here's the question. You. I really don't watch porn. Neither do I.

I'm not a big on it. Why are you rolling your eyes? I don't believe either of you. You think every guy watches porn? I've seen porn in my life, but I don't, I don't. I also think it's bizarre not to watch porn. I don't. I do both of those.

Why? I got one video at home. My wife and I, we've seen it a hundred times. It's of you and your wife? That sounds super repetitive. We don't, I don't fight porn. Are you married? I've been married 12 years. I would think it was really weird if my husband didn't

watch porn. I'm just saying. I think that's unhealthy. Alright, now you've called me weird. That's okay. It's free speech. I have a question for you. That's exactly right. Question from Richard Voss from New Jersey. Go ahead. I think obviously you want as much government out of our lives as you possibly can.

Out of our speechy lives. Okay. Out of our heads. What's that? How about a ban on underage teen porn? Porn with underage children. Well, child pornography is illegal. Right, but is it okay to show it if you have it in your possession?

What do you mean? Would you ban child pornography? I would not, but of course, everyone else disagrees. How would you mean? Would you ban child pornography? I would not, but of course everyone else disagrees. How would you not ban? Well, let me get back to mine. I would ban the production. I would ban anything that causes harm to children. I don't think simply showing the image should be a felony.

But it creates the market. The money assures that it will continue. There are also arguments that the market actually decreases abuse of children, and studies have actually shown that, that for people who have compulsive perversions

like pedophilia, that having access to pornography that scratches that itch actually sometimes prevents crimes. I'm talking about the children in the movies.

Well, fair enough, but I don't think me showing you this image harms the kid when the movie was produced. I think, again, we go after child porn producers and parents who allow

their kids in that situation, but to be a felon because you saw a single image, I think is over the top and counterproductive. But if you're trading... Show it, because you show it. You distribute it. You don't have to distribute it. All you have to do is access it under federal law.

No, I'm asking should it be a crime to distribute it. Do you think that my viewing of Jennifer Lawrence's... Yes, I'm more open to that. I'm sorry. I thought you were just meant like... A TV station should not be able to show child porn. Yeah, I think that's fair. It should be shown anywhere. It should be criminal.

That's like saying, hey, listen, we'll go after the Colombian drug dealers, but if you get caught in the street with it, hey, you're okay. You know, if you're not part of it, obviously part of it is... And I do think that's how we should do drug enforcement. Instead, we target low-level dealers, and it does nothing whatsoever to... I think we target... I target everybody we possibly can. I'm not saying we give the low-level drug dealers the same sentences.

I say more rehabs. I don't want to get into drugs. Fair enough, but I have to make a broader point. Not again. Yeah. The thing is, once you give the feds criminal power, you understand that like 80% of child porn arrests

are because some fed undercover pretended to be 14, okay? Or because the feds showed child porn that they have in their possession, all right? Same thing with sexting. It's a crime. Guess who they charge?

Black teenagers in Pennsylvania, you guys. I'm just saying we should all be a little bit more skeptical about suggesting that the cure for sex, for pornography, for human perversion is throwing everybody in jail. It always backfires. It doesn't change attitudes or remove the market. That's such a bold left-wing statement when you go black people. White people, don't say, I hate when they go black people in Pennsylvania. I'm sorry that you hate reality, but our criminal justice system is deeply racially biased,

and that's a reality that you cannot deny. And also reality is 70% of the crime in this country is committed by 13% of the people. And I'm not saying, yes. No, that's not a possible statistic to know because you are basing that on enforcement statistics. And there's no possible way. No, I'm basing that on me. 70 times I've been robbed were by 13 people in my neighborhood, okay? Okay, I'll pretend that matters.

Okay, here's, you know, listen. And I hate when people go, I'm not racist, because I am a little. We all are. You're in your company. Nobody says you're not racist. And I believe in profiling. Because we do it every day. We walk down the street.

If you see someone coming at you, you're profiling them right away. We can all be shitty people, but that doesn't mean I want our government to behave like we do. Well, the government, we say we're not allowed to profile, but the FBI has solved more crimes from profiling. They solved serial killers, serial rapists, murders from profiling. Not racial profiling. What's that? Not racial profiling. They solve serial killers, serial rapists, murders from profiling. Not racial profiling. What's that? Not racial profiling. You didn't say racial profiling. You said you don't believe in profiling.

I don't believe in racial profiling. Sometimes racial profiling, you have to do it. I mean, if these are the people committing the crimes, if we're in such a politically correct world, you don't want political correctness when it comes to speech and comedians, but you want political correctness when it comes to terrorism or criminal behavior. No, I believe in reality. I believe in reality and fact-based policy, and not a single person in the U.S. government has provided evidence that racial profiling has ever stopped a crime of terrorism, despite the fact we've been investigating Muslims for years.

Do you think you know everything, the FBI and the CIA? Do you think you know what they're... I think that Congress has given them an opportunity to justify the bullshit racial profiling that they've been engaged in since 9-11. I'll just say one thing. Let me sum it up for you. I'll sum it up.

That's a wonderful tag, too. I'll sum it up. Guy steals $100, That's a wonderful tattoo. I'll sum it up. Guy steals $100, that's a black guy. Guy steals $1,000, that's a white guy. Guy steals a million dollars, that's a Jew.

I'm just saying, you get, I read that somewhere. I didn't make it up, but there's some truth in that. No? I got thrown off track when we get into the whole profiling thing.

Fair enough, and I didn't mean to drag you into race. No, that's okay. I'm just saying we need to be conscious that the criminal justice system sometimes creates unintended consequences rather than magically solves our human dysfunction. And humans are dysfunctional. And I agree that sometimes it makes sense to deal with it, and I think child pornography is a great example.

But I think over-criminalizing that has real repercussions for people that we sometimes don't think about. I think African Americans have been dealt a shitty hand when it comes to the criminal justice system.

Because they don't have the money to hire defense lawyers like certain privileged white people. They get a public defender that has 40 cases that doesn't give a fuck. Yeah, I get it. I believe it. But also, too, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I was a fucking full-blown crack addict.

I was a piece of shit lying crack addict. 30 years sober, though. Okay, no one fixed me but myself. Okay, so if you're not willing to fix yourself, you can't expect the government to do it. You can't expect... You have to take responsibility for your own life. I'm sick of the whole world,

including Jews, my people, pointing the fucking finger Do something Take responsibility And move on Or else live in your same shit And don't break the chain of dysfunction That's come before you

What are you guys arguing about? I'm not sure You get what I'm saying Yeah, I just don't think demanding sensible government policy Is picking figures He's trying to say these college are out of control No He didn't say it that way I'm saying that Yeah, I just don't think demanding sensible government policy is picking figures. He's trying to say these colors are out of control. No. He didn't say it that way.

I'm saying that everybody, every special interest group, every race, religion, creed, is all pointing the fucking finger. Hey, this and that. Take control. Take responsibility. Enough with your special interest group. Do what you got to do to get ahead. What is racial profiling to you?

How are you defining that? I think if I— That you should pull over a random black guy on the street? No, stop. I'm asking you. Here's what I think. Yeah. Okay, if I—because I was profiled when I was 17, 18, when I had hair down to my shoulders. Yeah.

And I was driving around. You knew I had drugs. Right. You knew I was up to no good. and I was driving around, you knew I had drugs. You knew I was up to no good. And I was pulled over nonstop. That was profiling. If I had a clean cut hair, a nice car, I wouldn't get pulled over. If I see four, okay, you want to use black on this one? Four African Americans. If I see four African-Americans driving in a car with red bandanas or blue bandanas, knowing that they're probably gang members, I'm thinking the odds are something could be wrong here.

But if there were four white guys with bandanas on you. No, if there are four white guys driving in a pickup truck with a rebel flag and a fucking gun rack, I'm thinking there could be trouble there, too. So, yeah, it's profiling certain white people, certain blacks, certain Middle Easterns. Yeah, not all. If I see a guy walking down the street, black guy with a suit, a briefcase, I'm not going criminal. Okay? I see a black guy walking down the street with his pants halfway down expression. Okay.

With four other black guys. I'm thinking maybe, maybe, you know, just like if I see four skinheads walking towards me, I'm going to think there could be trouble there. So if she doesn't want to say out loud what she's thinking about you right now. I'm just saying the difference is skinheads are probably skinheads because you saw a tattoo and you had long hair because you chose to grow your hair long. I don't think black people wake up in the morning and think, should my skin be black today? Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're saying skinheads because they chose to have skinheads? If I see a guy with a regular haircut and there's certain tattoos I know, there's certain... Our audience members say you rock.

Who is this woman? Sit down and watch the show. You can sit down. You want to join the show? Your dad's doing a lecture? Yeah. Who's your dad? He's a physician.

He's a physician? From Jersey. From Jersey. Speaking of Jersey... I came in from. He's a physician? From Jersey. From Jersey. Speaking of Jersey. I came in from, anybody here from Jersey? I came in from Jersey. What part, sir?

The pleasure zone. Oh, shithole. Anyhow. The fucking tunnel, the Holland and Lincoln Tunnel used to be $8, which is a lot of money, right? They raised it from $8 to $13.

From $8 to $13. And you go through the tunnel, they don't wash your car or nothing. They raised their price over 50%. No other business on this planet could raise their price over 50% and stay in business. If you went into a restaurant and went back the next day and their prices over 50% and stay in business. If you went to a restaurant and went back the next day and their prices were 50% higher, you'd leave. You know what I mean? No, like, what's your name?

What? Brent. Say when you get your haircut, say they raise their price to $6, right? You see what I'm saying? You're like, bullshit, right? This is a $4 haircut. It's all bullshit.

Big business, all of them. They're all scumbags. I went into my bank last week, Bank of America, and they're fucking frauds because they're not in every goddamn state in this country, yet they're arrogant enough to call themselves Bank of America. How about Bank in some of America? You know what I mean?

I went in there to deposit a check, deposit a check, and they asked me for ID. I go, are you telling me other people are trying to put money in my account? And you're telling them no? I made a large

deposit, so the supervisor came up to me and said, I have good news for you. I said, did Israel attack Iran? She said, no. I said, was my attack Iran? She said, no. I said, was my wife hit by a bus? That was my wife before me, and I had the same policy. I go, what's the good news? I go, what's the good news, toots?

I call her toots because I made a large deposit. That's how I talk. She said, after this deposit, you are now a platinum member at Bank of America. And I'm not trying to talk down to you guys, even though I'm at a whole nother level. Okay. I go, what does that entail?

She said, we raise your interest rate. I go, to what? She said, point, that's where she lost me at, point. Point 45%. I go, do the platinum members get towels? Because I think I just came all over my leg, okay? Is there a platinum member cum cleaner? Point 40.

When my six-year-old was born, I put $5,000 into her college fund. By the time she goes to college, she'll have $5,012. Unless she goes through the Lincoln Tunnel, then she'll only have $4,999. That was a math joke. A lot of people have been coming up to me saying, you don't do enough math material.

You know what I'm saying? So I said, you're right. Let Dan say what he wants to say. Well, no, I just wanted to mention that I'm reading the Bruce Springsteen autobiography. This is completely off topic. Is it good? Oh, I'm enjoying it a great deal. Okay.

He seems like he might be a decent writer. Yeah, well, I don't know if it's good. I bring it up because we have a Jersey guy here, Rich Voss. I thought you might be interested in this. Are you a Springsteen guy? I saw Springsteen. Go ahead. I seen it when it was free behind a college.

The only reason we went because it was free beer and hot dogs, and it was Springsteen playing. There was like 100 people. Yeah, I'm a fan of his. I'm a fan of Southside Johnny. I like that kind of music. Yeah, I'm a fan of his music. I'm not completely fan of his politics

because he's too far left. Can someone be fucking moderate in this goddamn world and maybe... Hillary's moderate. Yeah. Did you read WikiLeaks? She's quite moderate. No, I mean, a celebrity... Much more moderate than she pretended to be.

I'm talking about a celebrity. A celebrity that comes out a little more moderate. They're either so left or so right. Enough. We don't give a fuck about your opinions. You're just some guy reading lines or girl reading lines. That's true. There aren't a lot of moderates who come out and say,

you know, I just want to stand up for tolerance and reasonableness. It's all their agenda. It's all about their agenda. So do you think, I think Dan wanted a Springsteen point. Well, I just wanted to make another point about Springsteen. If you're listening, Bruce, and I doubt you are, there's a point in your book where you talk about how you were really depressed and you couldn't get up out of bed.

And this was when you were like 60, you turned 60 and you got very depressed. And you said you couldn't get out of bed and you couldn't get up out of bed. And this was when you were like 60. You turned 60 and you got very depressed. And you said you couldn't get out of bed and you couldn't work. And you were worried that if you can't work, how are you going to support your family? He said that? Yeah, and I want to ask you, what the fuck are you talking about

how you can support your family? You got $200 million. Not to mention, he probably makes millions every year just, you know, off the royalty. Just laying in bed. What the fuck is he talking about he can't support his family?

You're right. Can you expand on that to what you think about Bruce Springsteen? It sounds like he's a fraud. Either he's psychotic. It does. Either he's psychotic and he really thought he couldn't support his family. Or he's saying that to make him sound like a regular person that worries about

supporting his family. That's why I said fraud. Or maybe he means it figuratively. Or maybe by supporting his family he means I don't know

like he's got ten aunts and you know when he's worried maybe his grandchildren will have to work one day. But Dan, does it make you feel better

to know that Bruce Springsteen is depressed? Because you always think that if only you could have more success, you'd be happier. Do you really think I'm that dumb? When I see all around the world, successful people that do drugs, successful people that kill themselves, do you think I'm that daft that I think success is the key

to happiness? No. I've never accused you of being dumb. Of course I don't believe that. I think for me, it would be very therapeutic to have a little bit more success. For me, it would be quite therapeutic to have some degree of success more than I currently think. I don't think. I think for me, it would be very therapeutic to have a little bit more success. Yes. For me, it would be quite therapeutic to have some degree of success more than I currently have. I like to draw the strings together. I think that you see success. And if only I could be on stage once in 1985 singing Born to Run.

One time. I could die happy. You do and have said that you think that success is going to give you something. I think it would be therapeutic. Yes. Do you have children? Success. I think it would be therapeutic. Did you have children? I think when you have children. I'm not going to have children.

If you were to have children, you would be upset because in your gut, you would moderate some of your views. It all sounds so easy. Has it occurred to you that might be one of the reasons I don't want children? Well, because I think that one of the things about politics that is very 2016 and disturbs me a lot, it's all about what we want other people to do and how we want other people to behave. You think parents should have to deal with it. We think people in border towns should have to deal with it. Everybody who makes more money than I do should pay more taxes. It's kind of like what John F. Kennedy say, ask not what you can do for your country. Very little, very little.

You said too much teeth, Marilyn. Very little about what animates people. Very few issues that animate people anymore are about what they would like to happen to themselves, policies that affect them.

People should have homeless people in their neighborhoods. Westchester should have affordable housing. Everybody's about what someone else should be doing. And everybody should stop and take a breath. Well, maybe there's a reason

that everyone who lives in border towns feels so strongly. Maybe there's a reason parents feel so strongly. What does it have to do with the wildly innocent in the East Street Shuffle? Well, it had to do with, maybe there's a reason that it started with your impression of success. And I kind of turned it backwards.

The bottom line is that when you experience something, it changes your perspective. That is right. And you should respect that. The founders of our nation were wise enough to realize that. And the entire reason they wrote the Constitution and the amendments, the Bill of Rights, as they did. That's the first 10 amendments.

Limitations on government. The Bill of Rights, First Amendment, Second Amendment. What do you think of the Second Amendment? You believe in it? ACLU, you mean ACLU or Lee Rowland? You or both. I feel like I'm here in my professional capacity, so I'll give you the robot line, which is... No, I don't want a robot line.

The ACLU thinks the Supreme Court is wrong. And this, I totally agree with the ACLU. They are just historically wrong. They literally just entered an opinion that relies on an ahistorical fact, which is that they believe it's an individual right rather than a militia right. But if you look at the laws at the time the Second Amendment was passed, you had to check your gun in the outskirts of New York City. You had to check your gun in the outskirts of D.C. And so... Dershowitz agrees with you, and so does Lawrence Tribe. Yeah, but whatever. It is what it is, right? So the Supreme Court said it's an individual right.

My concern now is that that individual right not eclipse other individual rights like the right to speak. So as a First Amendment attorney, there are two things that people say to me all the time. The first is nobody loves the First Amendment more than me, but that's the first one. It should be more than I. The second one, yeah, but everybody says me. The second one is everyone knows you can't shout fire in a crowded theater. That's, by the way, not true. But people have internalized that as the idea of what the First Amendment prohibits, right?

Who came up with that fire in a crowded theater? It is in a Supreme Court opinion. It's just a half-assed statement. It's when you falsely shout fire in a crowded theater in a manner that is likely to cause a riot. If you go to one of my shows, there won't be a crowded theater. So you're good. You're

totally good. But I used to give lectures at college classrooms, and the first thing I would do is get everybody to yell fire. My legal mentor did that. See, I mean, I'm moderate. I don't believe in automatics or semi-automatic. I don't think people need those. Second should be like the first.

Even though that's not true, First Amendment lawyers out there, forgive me. Even though theoretically you can't, First Amendment lawyers out there, forgive me, even though theoretically you can't child fire in a crowded theater, it seems to me there are ammunition and type of weapon equivalents to when you create that kind of mass danger. I don't think that applies to white people, but I'm saying no. Okay, so

here's my other question. You could cry fire in a theater the first ten minutes of a movie when there's only white people there. And, you know, it's great because you don't get to talk to lawyers as much, and especially ACLU lawyers. I'll tell you two quick things. You enjoy talking to lawyers? Yeah, I enjoy talking to anybody where I can learn something from or get their opinion.

I flattered you just now. I hope you saw that. That's nice. That was very nice. But I'm going to tell you the truth, and this is a true story. Just don't ask me where and how. We were doing shows. The ACLU was sponsoring them at a couple colleges.

Yeah. It was some kind of awareness or raising, whatever it was. And it was me, myself, Patrice, and whoever. And so we did the show. The second show, they fired Patrice and said, you're a little too rough for this. The ACLU fired him? Yes.

That's a great story. When you get fired by the ACLU for, because your content is a little too rough. I sat with this woman now for about 45 minutes, 50 minutes. I can tell you one thing. She's a smart cookie. This is no Hofstra Law School grad. Where'd you go to law school?

That's so rude. Oh, I'm sorry. Was that... I went to Hofstra the big age. Did she go to Hofstra? No, I went to Harvard. I told you. Harvard, smart Harvard.

I knew that she went to a good school. I thought she went to DeVry. No one went to Penlock. I was saying this before the interviewry. No, I know him went to Penn. I know him went to Penn. You guys, Harvard does not teach you how to be smart. You know, it's just like a bunch of rich people whose parents are lawyers. I was waitlisted at Harvard Law School, but we won't talk about affirmative action. He went to Penn. You seem really nice for somebody who went to Penn.

Oh, thank you. Penn Law. I went to Penn undergrad. Look at my profiling. Profiling's okay. It's with Penn. Very comfortable profiling. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a question. I went to Penn undergrad. I went to Penn Undergrad. Look at my profiling. Very comfortable profiling. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a question.

I went to Penn Undergrad. I quit high school. I haven't decided if you're nice yet. I have a question for you. I'm nice because I'm real. I keep it real. That doesn't mean nice. Keeping it real and nice, that's a false, that doesn't follow. Nice is also a meaningless word. I don't even

consider it a compliment, so don't worry about it. Nice is what's in your heart, Dan. And this woman, by the way, she went to Harvard Law and she works at the ACLU. In other words, she could have gotten a very lucrative job at a firm with names like Kedwallader, Wickersham, and Taft. Simpson, Thatcher. Simpson, Thatcher.

And she decided to go to the ACLU and do something she believed in. That's why she's bitter. Most likely her husband's making the money and supporting her. My husband also works for the ACLU. I want to ask you a question. Leaving aside the text of the Constitution,

the Constitution was written to provide for us the society that we wanted. And we're entering a world now... We being white-landed male gentry. No, no, don't take it the other way. No, but that is true, right? That's not what I'm... The people who wrote the... Please. No, because I'm not...

I'm not... I'm making a point. Okay. And I wasn't trying to trip you up. That... That... That's really what I meant that, that there's an issue now of technology which threatens to strip us of every ounce of privacy that a human being can have. You can't have a conversation with anybody. You can't walk into a restaurant. You can't, you can't, before you know it, they'll be able to see through walls. I mean, it's getting crazy out there. Private actors, not government actors.

And this is going to rub directly, and the Constitution and the laws don't never address that because it didn't exist. What we do have is this First Amendment, which is that you'd be able to say and no prior restraint and everything out there. Right. this First Amendment, which is that you'd be able to say and no prior restraint and everything out there. And I think we're heading to an untenable situation where people's need for privacy is going to be seen as more important than the restriction against censorship of any kind. And have you thought about that? I mean, is there a new constitutional amendment which might even be appropriate? Because something has got to give where nobody can have any privacy anymore. It is literally all we think about at the ACLU.

And although I focus on free speech, the project I work for is called the Speech Privacy and Technology Project. And the reason we crammed those together is exactly because of the question you just asked, right? If we are going to be creeped out by facial recognition, how can we pass laws that prohibit a store from covertly taping our faces and figuring out where else we've shopped without violating the First Amendment? I tell you, what a difference between a Harvard grad and a Penn grad.

It's just so... You just... The clarity, the logic... My question was fucking smart, Dan. This question is what got us here. Now forget him. And I didn't know that. Dan, let's cut in for that question.

You know what? Go ahead. No, no. I should go ahead. Finish Harvard. Then we can talk about hard knocks. Go ahead. Harvard is like.

Well, Rich has street smart. I said his school of hard knocks. She's school of Harvard. Go ahead. That is true. I was he's school of hard knocks. She's school of Harvard. Go ahead. That is true. I was not born a yuppie. I want to be clear. Where were you born in?

I was born in Connecticut, which is a yuppie town. That's where I'm from. Yuppie city, but I'm personal. What town? In the Mike. I'm like a horrific teen pregnancy. People did acid on a camping trip accident story. I wasn't born in Connecticut.

Well, your parents were intelligent people, no doubt. Yeah, they're smart. Obviously, you don't come from low-end folk. That's not nice, Dan. It's fine. Who gives a shit about nice?

No, low-end folk. She could come from low... What do you mean by low-end? No, because, I mean, she does not come from dumb people. No. Well, you know...

Dumb people don't get together and produce what we have witnessed here today. That's not true. She produces... She's her own person. Rich's children seem quite bright to me.

Oh. Thank you. Thank you. And you know what? Right now, they're getting ready to watch porn at four in the morning.

You fucking idiot. Turn the TV off. As soon as you fall asleep, they're on it. I don't even want to know what this is. My wife watches Fifty Shades of Grey three times a night.

But it is not, I mean, you've actually asked, I think, the biggest philosophical law in society question of our time. And Europe has a different answer. Europe has the right to be forgotten. And this is a real law. That if something happened 10 years ago and you're embarrassed about it, you get to petition Google and they take it off the internet. I mean, it's crazy, right?

It's a completely different world over there. And so I'm very mindful of not exporting the First Amendment. I may be a true believer, but I think it's fair that other people put the balance in other places. But it is totally true that things that for Europeans are no-brainers are impossible for us because of the First Amendment. So, for example, getting your mugshot taken down off of Mugshots.com, right? That's a public record, right? Your mugshot or revenge porn, right?

Even if states pass laws that made the act of revenge porn a crime, which I have complicated feelings about for the record, even if they did that, good luck getting that image down from everywhere online. The tweet, Dan's girlfriend's tweet about him, about the herpes? That was ridiculous. Oh, my God.

And that's never coming down. I mean, that's kind of like revenge porn. It's just not porn. It's just revenge STD. But in seriousness, I mean, should you really have the right to tweet that some guy has herpes because you had a fight? No, you can sue them for slander. No, you can't sue if it's true. So here's what I think.

If it's true, you cannot. If it's not sue if it's true. So here's what I think. If it's true, you cannot. Everybody hates this answer. Here's what I think. When people, private people, harm each other in the context of human relationships. When in the course of human events. Uh-huh. I don't think our government is the best arbiter

in terms of throwing you in jail. I do think that there are certain civil laws that can be passed. And do, like, think about Hulk Hogan, right? I don't think that Gawker. For the listeners, Hulk Hogan sued somebody made a sex, somebody, what do you call it? Peeping Tom, the sex tape of his. I guess, I think he knew he was on tape, but whatever.

Well, that was it. Either way. I think it was between them. And they released it, and he won. And Gawker went bankrupt. He sued for $100 million. Right. Sorry, go ahead.

And so I actually, I have complicated feelings about that case, but I think that's an indicator of where we're going, which is I don't think, first of all, I don't think we're going to have a constitutional convention anytime. That's how we amend the Constitution. That shit is not happening. Trust me. That would be a nightmare. It could be done by the states,

right? Theoretically, it needs two-thirds of the state to vote for a convention. I just don't see that happening ever, because everybody has a sacred cow in the Constitution. The conservatives are freaked out about what the liberals would do to the Second Amendment. The liberals are freaked out about what conservatives would do to the First Amendment for corporations. I mean, it's just a nightmare,

right? Everybody wants to amend the Constitution for their own thing, their own agenda. So I think assuming that's not going to happen in our lifetime, which I think is unlikely given that it's been many, many, many decades since we've done that. Um, then I think we're likely to be pushed into an area where these things aren't criminal, right? Like putting up a mugshot or saying somebody has herpes isn't likely criminal, but you could get your ass sued. And that's not a free speech problem. It is a free speech problem, but at least those issues are taking place

in the context of a set of facts and a relationship where two people have expectations. So you're not an absolutist on the First Amendment? Because that's still First Amendment. I'm saying what I think will happen, not what I want to happen. As a lawyer, when you say something... I'm being cagey. My answer sucks.

On radio, when I'm on radio, if I say something, if I go, in my opinion, then there can't be a lawsuit against me if I'm saying, in my opinion. Okay, that's not 100% true, but it's a good tactic. If you're worried about something, you can do that, and it's kind of like you're sending a signal, hey, I'm just thinking this, right?

Yes. But if you said, if I said, hey, in my opinion, those articles about Rick Voss being a pedophile are a little overblown, probably you could still sue me. Well, you're saying they're overblown.

You're on my side. But I'm just suggesting that the article exists, right? So it's not bulletproof. We got to wrap it up. I just want to make the point clear. What I was saying was that when they started the Constitution, they said, we want to create a point clear. What I was saying was that when they started the

Constitution, they said, we want to create a society for white people that gives us freedom and dignity and allows us to live the way we would like to live. Well, good luck finding dignity with the internet around. And that's right. And now they did a very good job. Yeah, they did. They really did.

Now technology has intervened in such a way that those same rules will lead us kind of to the opposite. No privacy, no dignity, not at all the way we'd like to live. There are real consequences to the First Amendment. Such that if today was when they were devising a constitution, there was no

way they would have worded the First Amendment as they did because they would have never wanted to create this right to be able to divulge anything private about anybody, to be able to videotape anybody and put it out on the internet. You may be right. Who would? It's crazy. I think that's right. And the Supreme Court has kind of recognized

that in weird ways and it's in flux right now. But when they I'm going to try really hard not to talk like a lawyer but this is hard. This is the last word and you tell us when you're done and we're going to say goodnight. But I think the Supreme Court has kind of recognized that there's all this steam and no valve for that steam. And so when they investigate these, when they rule on cases at the intersection of speech and privacy, every single time they say, just to be clear, we're not making any broad pronouncements.

We're just looking at the specific case of facts, right? And it's cases where the Boston Globe printed an article about a rape victim and identified her, or a situation where a paper publicized a private family who'd been a victim of a crime, right? And these are really hard questions. Do they have, have they lost all rights to have their story told? Or has a rape victim lost all ability to be private as a victim? These are extremely hard questions. And the Supreme Court just punts time after time after time. And the ultimate reason they're punting is exactly the question you asked, which is the First Amendment makes regulating privacy in a digital age really, really goddamn hard. And so we work at the ACLU at doing that, at meaningfully protecting privacy. But we do need a new approach, I think, in terms of making sure the First Amendment does not apply to any regulation of privacy. And unfortunately, our adversary in that is entirely the corporate

world, right? The corporate world that wants to profit off of facial recognition, that wants to sell automated license plate reader data. And right now, they can claim that restrictions on those activities are First Amendment harms. And I think we need to carefully craft First Amendment law so that those actually aren't free speech harms. That when the government passes things to protect privacy and there's no evidence they've done it because they don't like what you say, but rather because they actually want to make sure you don't have a digital scarlet letter for 60 years. I think we need a new test and a new framework for evaluating those laws that doesn't currently exist. and we're going to get a ninth justice soon and that may be the sea change

we need. Harvard 1, Penn 0 thank you. I thought I did pretty well for Penn, let me tell you, I thought I did pretty well for Penn. I think I did well for a guy that quit high school Fordham, not so much alright, ladies and gentlemen can I plug? Yeah, plug November 2nd we're doing a live show

at the Village Underground, go to the? Yeah. Yeah, plug. November 2nd, we're doing a live show at the Village Underground. Go to the Comedy Cellar website. Get your tickets. November 2nd, 10 o'clock. It's going to be great. My wife hates me. Through the Village Underground, through the New York Comedy Festival. Also, my new CD, Rich Boss 5, pre-release the 20th.

Goes on sale the 28th. Download it at iTunes, Amazon. You'll love it. It was a pleasure meeting you. Also, this Tuesday, October 25th, the Comedy Cellar is sponsoring a debate. Racism in law enforcement. Debating police violence.

I'm not rising social tension. And the ACLU actually is involved in that debate. You can get tickets at ComedyCellar.com. Thank you very much, Lee. Thank you very much, Lee. Thank you very much, everybody. Good night.