The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Robots, Nazis and Comedy

Episode Date: February 21, 2020

Laurie Segall, Oliver Polak and Danny Cohen

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar on Raw Dog Sirius XM 99. This is Dan Natterman. Noam is out of town. I believe he's on vacation. Is that right, Perrielle? He is on vacation. I think he's someplace warm. Yeah, we're not sure where.

But if I know Noam, he'll come back no tanner than when he left us. My guess is that he's under an umbrella somewhere, avoiding the sun assiduously. We have with us today Laurie Siegel, an old friend of the comedy sellers. Hello, Laurie. Hi, thanks for having me. Laurie is an up-and-coming, award-winning... Well, that's sort of a contradiction. I guess if she's award-winning, she's not up-and-coming.

She's already gotten there. But she's an award-winning journalist, CNN tech correspondent, and has now moved on to found her own company, Dot Dot Dot, a media company exploring technology through the human lens. Before we get into that, however, I do just want to... I have some housekeeping to do with regard to the comedy cellar. Apparently, they fired the chef. Did you introduce me?

And Periel's here. Apparently, they fired the chef. They know who you are. You're a regular. Does Howard Stern introduce Robin Quivers every time? I mean, you introduced yourself. You should introduce me. How long was he here for? He was here for a few months, I guess.

I don't know. I thought it was decent. We got some new dishes, some specials. But you said that you'd only tasted one of the things that... No, I tasted many things. What I particularly enjoyed was his papa del ragu and his fried chicken. Yeah, I mean, I tasted a few things, too, that I thought were very good, but I think we were in the minority. No, I don't think we were in the minority, but Noam is a decision maker,

and he didn't feel it was up to par. I don't know what he's looking for. I don't think he's ever going to find what he's looking for. I think he's going to have, my guess is, whoever he hires, he's not going to be happy with. Because I think that's sort of his M.O. But anyway. So chefs out there, come to the Comedy Cellar.

How hard could it be to find a chef? I was in Aruba. As you know, I go to Aruba from time to time to perform. Aruba's in the middle of nowhere. It's in the middle of the ocean. There were great restaurants all over the place. They managed to find chefs that they're happy with. No one can not find a chef in the middle of New York City.

Why has he been looking for a long time? Like a year he's been looking, trying out different chefs. How many chefs have been here? I don't know, but I know he's been trying out several chefs. At some point you've got to to say maybe the problem is internal. People were saying things were very salty. Then say to the chef, instead of being adversarial and saying

hey, it's fucking salty, you idiot, say, I don't think they were saying that, but say, hey, I think you've got something here. I'll tell you what, a little less salt. Chefs don't like to hear that shit. I hope the chef's not listening. I feel so bad. Well, I enjoyed his work. Yeah, I thought it was great, too.

I didn't even know that he was no longer working here. For us, it's difficult, Lori, because as you know, you're a long-time seller. True. Not just that you're a tech journalist. That's not the only reason we invited you on. You're a long-time comedy seller fan,

right? I mean, you used to come here as an NYU student. Is that right? Yeah. I remember, I mean, I don't really want to age myself, but let's just say over a decade ago, more, much longer than a decade ago, I used to come here with my laptop. Not even here. I would walk by because I wanted to be a journalist. This was before I even started at CNN and made my way up to being our on-air correspondent I would just go

to there was a place right here called Cafe Esperanto I think I remember that I think it was on the corner of Bleecker and McDougal and I would like go by to to write and people would just make fun of me outside I think that was just like standard protocol like it was just a bunch of you guys just like making fun of me. They were hitting on you, I'm sure. So I'm older now and understand that. But at the time I was like, ah, that's so interesting. But I came and I would just come see sets.

And it was like the most magical thing to see different, to watch the art of comedy. And it stuck. And so I just kept coming here. Has the magic worn off at all? You know, it really has not. I feel like it was like a rite of passage. I would bring, like, parents.

Because it has for us. I would bring parents, boyfriends. I would bring everyone here. It was like the rite of passage, you know, to come here. And then, like, you know, the Lions got lost. You can't even, like, get in here anymore. I mean, anyway, I'm so happy to be here you know it's true though it's true it's like oh i don't think the magic has worn off no it's amazing if anything everyone

else discovered that well everyone always knew the magic but i think like the magic it's not saying for me it's worn off well for you like what like 25 years ago well because when i started it was like how old were you when ago? Well, because when I started, it was like... How old were you when you started? How long ago did you... When I first started coming here, I was about 24. Excuse me, I have a bit of a cold. I guess I was 24. As I was telling Perrielle, I've been eating right, exercising, and I've never felt worse.

But I came here, I was young and full of... I was completely convinced I was going to become a great big star. You are a great big star. Yeah. I watch your stuff. Well, artistically I've grown,

but the career is not what I was hoping that it would have been. But I don't want to get bogged down in that. Let's talk about Laurie Siegel's, and I found out about this because my friend Brian Steinberg writes for Variety magazine. He's like, he's a writer there, whatever. And he covered Laurie Siegel. So I saw it on his Twitter feed.

Do you know Brian? Well, he covered my exit from CNN, which happened. And I did a documentary on Facebook last year at this time, which was a show that aired on kind of, it was Facebook's 15-year anniversary. So I interviewed Zuckerberg and a bunch of different folks and spent a lot of time, I would say, inside of Facebook during some of the more problematic moments. And so that was airing right at the time I decided to leave CNN to launch this company. So he kind of covered both in one article.

And so he's kind of covered my career moves. That's so interesting. He's on the Laurie Siegel beat. What was the problematic things that were going on at Facebook? Oh, wow. There have been so many. Yeah, there have been a lot. You know, I'd like to say a child of divorce, I feel like I can walk into chaotic moments pretty well.

I interviewed Zuckerberg during Cambridge Analytica. Like if you remember that TV interview he did where he said, I'm sorry. That was me sitting down with him and him saying, I'm sorry. And I remember that was a very big moment for Facebook just because I think everybody was pissed off. That was a time when I'd been covering tech for a long time, but I think it was the moment for me that tech went mainstream. Everyone cared about that. So I would say that was kind of the moment. And then there were many more problematic moments about, is this company too powerful? I do want to get to Facebook later, but I just want to

just get into this new company, Dot Dot Dot. What exactly is it? Sure. So we are doing podcasts and docuseries and films and all sorts of stuff. And I think for me, I'd covered tech for 10 years. So as long as I've been coming to the comedy cellar. And in the time I started covering tech, I mean, when I started out, I was interviewing people like the founders of Instagram and Uber when it was just like literally they were like a handful of people. I would just throw them on camera. I used to joke that I was kind of like the pot of television interviews. And then I was like, oh, we should put them on. I was like your gateway into television if you had never been on TV before.

And it just so happened that my beat exploded. Like I had gotten really interested in tech back in, I would say, like 2009. Did you, when you first, so you interviewed the Instagram guys before Instagram was a big deal? Yeah, I would say like right when it was, right when it was started, right when it was, it was a big deal in the tech world, and it was before people were paying attention to tech. Were you the only girl around there? Sorry.

I was the only, I mean, so. You were like the only girl, right? There was no bathroom line at tech conferences for women. It's the only time, like I think the gender ratio is horrific, but the only time I can get behind, I mean, no, I will never get behind it. The only time it's like kind of okay is at the tech conferences where there's no, there's never a line. But yes, always the only woman in the room in many situations for the last decade. I don't want to get into that.

We're noam here. We'd go down a rabbit hole about that. Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Well, except that we have other things to get to. I was wondering if Lori, upon hearing Instagram, thought this thing would ever go anywhere. Yeah, look, I remember thinking, what the fuck is this? I did. I think for me, it was always kind of so. So this is this will get into what I'm doing with dot dot dot.

But it was always kind of seeing what was coming next. Right. Like, you know, I was because I was in this little group in New York, where people were talking about technology and, and where people were talking about what was coming next. And I was kind of putting these people on before people were paying attention and before honestly, we were all wondering about the implications of like, tech on our brains and our democracy and all that kind of stuff. I was doing a lot of docu-series and stuff that was, I would say that like the national conversation would happen like a year later. So we did like a docu-series on like revenge porn. And then we'd started having a conversation on revenge porn a year later.

Or the hacker community, I did a lot on that. And same with like the founders of Instagram. So a lot of these tech companies like talking about them before people were paying attention. Did the founders of Instagram know why this would be why this would work? Did they anticipate that this would be a great way for women to show their bodies and get compliments? Because that's really, I think, what 70 percent of it is. I don't think that that's exactly what they thought. I think actually, did you know that Instagram wasn't Instagram?

Instagram was a check-in app called Bourbon, where people were checking in on their phones, and they just noticed that people were using photos, and so they completely pivoted their whole company. They didn't have a ton of money in the bank, and they completely pivoted their whole company to be a completely different company because they noticed people were just using it for photos.

I don't think they, I think the big takeaway is no one in tech knew what tech was going to become, which gets me to dot, dot, dot, which was, my whole thing was, I think that we've got to start covering tech in a very different way and look at issues like mental health and love and sex and talk about all of these issues that I don't actually think a lot of the dudes in Silicon Valley and a lot of the same types of folks were thinking about when they created these companies. And so that's what a lot of our content focuses on. What about love and sex and tech?

What about it? Yeah, what about love? I mean, other than the fact that a lot of tech is about getting laid, in fact, probably most of it is. I mean, arguably everything is. So my whole thing is like... Why do you think I'm doing comedy? We could dig into that. But I would say, I think like the, you know, the interesting stuff when I, when I'm looking at the tech coverage, right. And I'm looking at how we cover technology.

It's a lot of people talking about Russia and the election and Trump and power. And it's a lot of dudes, truthfully. It's like a lot of people that like came in like maybe two or three years ago to start covering this. And I look at how it impacts us. I look at how it makes us feel. I look at how you're talking about how tech is like the only way to get laid now. I didn't say it was the only way to get laid. Okay.

But when you're shy and awkward. Sure. And how much it impacts. And you can't talk to people and look people in the eye like myself. Okay. So is that how you would describe yourself? Is that how you describe yourself on the dating apps? Shy, awkward, can't look you in the eye like myself okay so that's helpful so is that how you would describe yourself is that how you describe yourself on the dating apps shy awkward can't look you in the eye no but i think if i did people might find it interesting you know that i i went that i was

that honest but by the way i think i actually think there's something to that um and i think that we don't actually have these really honest conversations about how how much it it actually impacts us on a fundamentally human level. We're all sitting here screaming over one thing and like, how do we facilitate these conversations? And also, how do I take the conversations about what's coming next? So for example, and what I'm hearing in Silicon Valley, so going off of that, let's like go down that rabbit hole. I was in Silicon Valley and heard an engineer talking about something he was building, which means it's coming down the pipeline, right? And they're building bots to date on the dating apps.

So this idea that people who are on the dating apps and, like, I don't know if you're on the dating apps, but, like, I've been on the dating apps. I've been on Tinder with marginal success. People just, like, stop. Okay, okay, that's good. Wait, wait. Define marginal success. People just like stop. Okay. Okay. That's good. Wait, wait. Define marginal success. Well, my Tinder overall

scorecard is two sexual encounters. Okay. And one girl that sent me nude pictures for money on Venmo. Wait, no, no. By the way, that's super interesting. We were talking about that in my office. Who may or may not

have been on this podcast. No, she was not on the podcast. So, I hear this is happening a lot. She's just a girl. We match and she's like, hey, you want to buy some pictures? How much? Do you think they were really of her?

It was of her because I told her what to send me. But how do you know it wasn't like something... I mean, I want to dig into this. Because I ordered it special, custom made. how do you know it wasn't like something, I mean, I want to dig into this. Because I ordered it special, custom made. How do you know it wasn't just any nipple? No, I said I want you in

this position doing this with that. You know. Hold up today's newspaper. Not quite that, but super interesting. How much were the pictures? Depending on the content. I don't want to get too into it. No, just give me like...

What do you think she's listening? Anywhere from $50 to $100. Whoa. Were they worth it? Is it ever worth it? I don't know. Is it ever worth it afterwards? Sure.

Maybe. I mean, of course. It's worth it beforehand, and then afterwards, it's like, oh, well, that was stupid. How often does this happen? This is actually a story, that was stupid. How often does this happen? This is actually a story I'm interested in. How often does it happen? Because I feel like this is happening a lot more on the TV. Well, another, yeah, there's a lot of prostitution and a lot of pictures.

Yeah. One girl said she would clean my apartment naked. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, which I didn't take her up on it. Though I guess I could use. That's on Tinder. That was on Tinder.

Tinder is sort of, you know is sort of what Tinder is. What is Tinder? I'm so out of the game. Tinder is considered the more bargain basement. Or more sketchy. Tinder was the original dating app that showed

swiping and this and that. And then there were all these other ones that were kind of built off the same idea of Tinder. There's Hinge and Bumble and Raya, which is like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to get invited to Raya. You get invited to Raya. I've never been on a dating app.

Yeah. You've got to give Tinder credit. They did, as far as I know, invent the concept of swiping. Yes. So Sean Rad, who's the founder of Tinder, that was like his whole thing was like he was also socially awkward. I didn't mean to look at you and say socially awkward but you said socially awkward

so that's why i said that that's my thing babe yeah i mean that's my hook that's amazing that's amazing and so that's why he created tinder but so the next iteration let's go down the rabbit hole the next iteration of that um so people the problem with dating apps, you haven't been on them. Never. So your mental health is probably good. No, it's terrible. You know, as someone who's been on them, I turn into like a bit of a bot. Like I think I'm genuine, like a pretty nice person.

But when you're on these and there's just people talking, you just like kind of become like a little bit of a robot. I don't really. I mean, it's easy for me to say that I don't really believe that that's the only way to meet people. I don't think so. Like, it seems, I'm,

it starts, like I was still single when they started, but I'm way too paranoid. Like, I could never date somebody like that because I would be certain that they were going

to murder me. Like, there's no way I could meet somebody online and be like, sure, like that because I would be certain that they were going to murder me. There's no way I could meet somebody online and be like, sure. I immediately started doing this. Which one are you on? Tinder's not for you. No. You're like a Bumble girl. No. What's the difference?

Are you on Raya? Because now you're a big deal. Imagine the kind of guys who are on Raya. Give me a fucking break. Let me just paint the picture of the guys who are on Raya. Okay, so I'll tell you the guys who are on Raya. Give me a fucking break. Let me just paint the picture of the guys who are on Raya. Please go ahead. And then I don't want to let this go off the rails anymore.

This is super upsetting. This is on the rails. So the guys that are on Raya are like the DJ. I have like ex-mini follower DJ. That I bought. That I probably bought. And like, and it's like, I mean, I think I, I deleted, I probably still have. I'm like, I'm in like show business.

Yeah, like where you might see me like spinning somewhere. But there's real people. And I'm sure the women are like, I'm a model and eat pizza. You know, it's like, it's like, I'm fun and cool too. But I know people that have met genuine celebrities on Rye. Oh. Like legitimate celebrities. So actually, you know who I know people that have met genuine celebrities on Raya. Oh, by the way. Like, legitimate celebrities. So, actually, you know who's on there? He frequents here all the time.

John Mayer. I've seen John on there. Who else have I seen? Also, a lot of tech guys. By the way, the worst. I don't want to get me started. There's just, like, tech guys are on there who have wives, but they're on there just for friends. I swear to God.

Oh, for the love of fucking God. If my future husband, let me just state this right now, and I hope this doesn't get picked up at all, but like it's like ever, and come back to haunt me, but like if my future husband is on Raya, which is like full of like models and like eating pizza to try to be approachable. Like if my future husband is on Raya just for friends, I probably wouldn't be okay with it. But I don't know.

Well, I don't think they're really just looking for friends, obviously. Yeah. But, anyway. So, to get back to the story. We'll get back to the bots. I want to hear more about dot dot dot, but I do want to tell you something. My, one of my best friend's husband was, I like to say

that he created Gmail, but he was technically on the team who created Gmail. And now they're, yeah. That's really interesting. They're really interesting. Yeah, they're doing okay. They're doing okay.

I bet. So anyway. So what I always find really interesting is the stuff that everyone thinks is crazy. And like back in the day when I started covering Uber, everyone was like, this is insane. No one's going to get into a stranger's car. And like the next thing you know, like who's calling Uber crazy now. Right. And I love ideas that and misfits.

Right. And things that people think are insane. I've just always maybe you guys are great, but maybe that's kind of why I like the comedy seller. Yeah, totally. It's like the somebody with the mental patients. It's just like, maybe you guys are great, but maybe that's kind of why I like the comedy seller, right? Yeah, totally. It's like somebody, the mental patients it's just like... I've always liked people who say things and do things a little bit different

and I think that was always the spirit of technology. It's changed a lot in the time I've started covering it because they became the man to a degree, right? The power brokers but I've always been really interested in the edge cases and what people should be talking about that they're not. And so while everyone's running over here talking about, which I think is important to talk about, and I've interviewed Zuckerberg many times and a lot of

these CEOs. So they're talking about Russia and the election and democracy. And I think we've got to talk about these things. What's in the corners that we're not talking about yet? And there's so many incredible, what I call them corner stories One of them is the bots in dating and we can make jokes about this but in Silicon Valley They're coding bots to date. So there's the so we've heard bots in a very corporate way right like when you're Trying to when your food doesn't get there in time and you're talking to the bot or something and you're like, where's my food? And it's like I'll be right with you.

But now like we're seeing this happen. We're seeing bots turn a consumer and in a really interesting way. So engineers are creating bots to go on the dating apps and start the conversations and, you know, actually set up the date and you wouldn't know it's a bot doing that. It sounds like the Twilight Zone. But then when you go on the date, what happens? So I had, so this engineer who was, he was nervous to talk about it, and he spoke about it with me for the first time.

He does, I mean, he worked with Facebook on some of their bot technologies, a really interesting guy, and he hasn't put the technology out there, but he created something called Keyboard, which goes on your phone, and it has like pre-programmed responses that go to the dating app. So, you know, if it has a photo of a woman on a hike, it'll say that's beautiful. Where is that? So he was doing this. And his whole thing was, you know what, it just gets me off the app. And so he installed it.

My whole thing is, like, let's not judge. Let's just try it before we judge. And as a woman and someone on these dating apps, I was like, this is my first instinct was to say this is pretty bad. You know, people already have become bots to a degree. Like, why are we doing this? And so he installed it on my phone. So in other words, it talks to the people that you don't have to talk to them. Right.

It starts conversations. It just makes a small talk for you. This is not a very smart bot. There are certain levels. But this is to show you the technology will go there. And I tried it once. And the bot was so stupid. I mean, it was saying stupid things.

But it immediately set up a date with a guy in like five seconds. I felt really bad about it. So I just closed it to him. Which, like, things, it was super weird. the guy in like five seconds. I felt really bad about it. So I just closed it to him. Um, which like things, uh, it was super weird. He, I mean, obviously I think that's probably weird if a girl says that to you on a dating app, he was very upset. I learned pretty quickly about his anger. Um, and some of the, and I think through the hardships we would not have lasted given his anger issues. Um, and so, but it was interesting to see this visceral reaction to this type of technology. And so what did you say to him?

You said that you didn't actually pick him. I said, hey, no, no, no. I said, I said, hey, was this in person or was this? This was no, no, no. I didn't meet him in person. We didn't get that far because once I told him that the conversation has been, had been pre-programmed and I said, I want to really apologize. Like I, I got to tell you, I'm working on this thing, you know,

and it was a bot and all that kind of stuff. He got super upset, and he was like, what the hell is wrong with you? You're insane, which, I mean, by the way, that's kind of fair. You know, and so that was that. But the technology is out there, and a lot of people are developing this type of thing. And so if you think about in the future, with artificial intelligence, you could have AI that lives in your phone and says, okay, you're this way, and I know you, I'm this way.

It could see if we'd be compatible. But that is like a Black Mirror episode. I mean, my life is like living out a real Black Mirror episode, I think, and looking at what the future is. And so it could see if we'd be compatible, and if we would actually should go on the date, our AI would decide. And that's kind of, you know,

let's look down the future and talk about the ethics of that and participate in those conversations because that's kind of what's being coded in the corners. And I've always thought that's the kind of stuff that's very interesting. So that's just one of the stories that we've done that we work on.

And you can hear you. We're bringing a couple other people now, but you can go and hear these sorts of stories where exactly, Lori? I have a podcast called First Contact, and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts, or you can go to our site, dot, dot, dot, media, dot com, or follow me at Lori Siegel.

Yeah. We have some interesting guests with us today. First of all, Danny Cohen, who has been on the podcast before. Not for a while. Not for a while. Hi. Do you know Laurie Siegel? She's a long-time comedy seller, fan, and tech

reporter. Hi, Laurie. Hey, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Danny is a non- practicing homosexual. Is that correct? Yeah, I'm non-practicing. It started and then it's just been 12 years now. You didn't want to do it because it's against Torah? Yeah, it just doesn't work for my lifestyle. Okay.

Not interested in it. No, okay. Anyway, that's not the focus of our show today. Although I find it endlessly fascinating. We can jump back into it if you want later. Because originally you had told me you wanted to be an Orthodox Jew since homosexuality is outlawed in that environment. Right, that's how it started.

But now you're no longer Orthodox, but you still have decided. No, because part of that was then I got really fat on purpose because I was like, how am I going to stay away from sex? So I said, let me just eat food. And then I gained like 60 pounds. And I kept that weight on. And I felt very non-sexual for many years. And then I lost the weight recently.

But by then it was too late. Anyway, so now I feel totally non-sexual. I think you look great. You look great. You adjusted. You adjusted. Kind of like I think you look great. You adjusted. You look great. You adjusted. You adjusted. Kind of like not eating carbs. Sure.

You adjusted. No sex. Yeah. Danny brought with us somebody that he thought would be interesting, and I think hopefully he will be. He sounds interesting. Oliver Pollack. Pollack?

Pollack. Pollack. Pollack. He's from Pappenburg in northern Germany, and he's the only Jewish-German comedian on the planet, apparently Not, you know, like an actual Jew that lives in Germany That's a comedian Actually German, like German-German

He's not like a German Jew like the Sulzberger family His father died in 2015 after surviving the Holocaust And his mother is from St. Petersburg Russia. And your father was from Germany? Yeah, he was from Germany and when he was 13 he had to go seven years to different concentration camps and he survived. He was freed by the Russians. And then he stayed in Germany. He wanted to go to America with his sister, who also survived. Everyone else died.

But they wouldn't let him in. He had typhus. I think it's typhus. That's how we pronounce it. Sorry, my English is not so good yet. And yeah, so the Americans wouldn't let him in. So he stayed in Germany. And really late, he became father when he was 50. And so, yeah, I grew up with a dad.

Well, that sounds crazy. We have several comedians that have become fathers in their 50s. And Noam Dorman, our host, became a father when he was, I think, for the first time at 50, and his last kid he had in his 50s. So my father was more like a grandpa for me than a father. You know what's interesting to me? Your father went from, did he get out of Auschwitz? No, Auschwitz not, but Stutthof, Kaiserwald, Riga.

Right, so when he got out, he went. He did a tour. All the smaller ones, maybe, whatever. So he goes back home, right? Yeah. So were there other Nazis still living around smaller ones, maybe, whatever. So he goes back home, right? Yeah. So were there other Nazis still living around his neighborhood, neighbors, Nazis?

Yeah, obviously. I mean, I ask him the same questions. Obviously, all these people who were living there. They waved to him, welcome back, hey, you look great. They didn't wave like they used to wave, but in a different way. But obviously, he explained to me all the people were still there. What shall you do? You can't kill them all. I mean, maybe not a bad idea.

So yeah, he lived with all these people there who watched him when he got deported. And you were raised with their children. So you were raised surrounding with Nazis, the children of Nazis. Yeah, and that's why I'm here in New York now because I'm pretty tired

of Germany. I've been working there for a long time. But there's actually a lot of Jews that still live in Germany, I guess, or that even have moved there.

Yeah, but now it's changing again because there is a lot of anti-Semitism, especially also Arabic anti-Semitism. You have attacks. I live in Berlin.

And you have attacks like every week people get beaten up and stuff. I will be in Berlin in May performing with Louis C.K. Yeah, I know. 20th of May. Oh, is that when he's coming? Yeah. I'm going to be there. I'm opening for Louis.

Laurie, I don't know if that's... You know, that's like the size of Madison Square Garden where he plays in Berlin. Oh, is it? It's a Mercedes-Benz arena. You didn't know that? I didn't know he was performing at the Mercedes. I thought we were going

to the Volkswagen Pavilion. But seriously, though, I don't know what Laurie thinks about me opening for Louis. I don't know if he's holding it against me or not. Why?

That's a good thing. Because Louis is a controversial figure. Yeah, but my opinion is that it's bullshit because... I don't want to get into Louis a lot, but... Sorry. I guess, I mean, I'm more interested in how you guys feel. How everyone here feels about it. About what?

I mean, I guess... Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we don't have to get into it. I guess I'm more curious to see. I thought it kind of came at an interesting time where people were talking about saying things and not saying things. I think about that in the tech community. Everyone in the tech community in Silicon Valley is like there has been like a huge, I would say, like culture war playing out where people feel like no one can say anything anymore. And people are very bitter about it and this and that.

And I'm kind of like, to a degree, I think some of this is like I have no patience for it. And then I think some of it is like, OK, I understand there's certain frustration. So I'm just curious. It's like a totally different narrative and this and that. And there's a lot of the women's stuff. So I probably have very different opinions than you on many of these things. Anyway.

Well, you know, me and Noam, we talk about Louis a lot here and we're both not willing to serve as judge, jury and executioner without all the facts and in any case, you know, I want to go to Europe.

But maybe it's interesting for you maybe you don't know that perspective. I saw him last year in Milan in Italy, where he played and I think it's a different view from Europe than maybe here in America. And I think personally, obviously it was creepy what he did, but we all have a creepy side. But at the end of the day, he didn't touch anyone, he didn't really harm anyone. He apologized for it I mean and he's a comedian and I think he should perform and people can decide whether

They want to see him or not want to see him. I mean, that's my opinion Well, that's that's Again, you know we taught we've gone we've deep deep dove into that topic a few times on this show, but that's roughly our opinion here. Anyhow, so your act talks about German history, more to the point, the Holocaust. Well, I just started doing stand-up 10 years ago, and before I was hosting the Disney Club in Germany and doing stupid things, which I really hated.

And then I decided I wanted to stand-up, but I didn't know what to talk about. And then a friend of mine, because I liked a bit of American stand-up, because German comedy is really horrible, and so I liked a bit of American standard, because German comedy is really horrible. And so I liked Sarah Silverman, Ricky Gervais.

I know he's British. So I thought of using my biography as a basis for my comedy, like all the comedians like Eddie Murphy, Steve Martin have done it. I don't do that, by the way. Okay. My stuff is all shtick. Yeah? You know, like David Tell. Okay. Like David Tell doesn't talk about, by the way. Okay. My stuff is all schtick. Yeah? You know, like David Tell. Okay.

Like David Tell doesn't talk about his biography. Yeah. For me, it's... I changed... That's why I started. It went somewhere else then also, yeah? But I decided to start like that, and... Yeah.

It happened to be that I was the only German-Jewish stand-up comedian since the Second World War. And obviously I talked about, when you talk about your biography, you talk about your mother, your father, growing up, Germany, Nazis. And yeah, that's how it started. But my mind actually got opened here. Here in the United States? No, no no here in the comedy cellar which is also weird for me sitting here right now to be honest

because here I understood what comedy is when I saw shows in the cellar for for me the most important comedians for my thinking and development in my were comedy cellar comedians was Nick Griffin, Godfrey, and Dave Attell. And these three, especially also Nick Griffin, showing me the awareness that you can also use

like really bad feelings like depressants and all this bring into comedy and also, yeah, talk about that and use that. So you're able, but you're able to talk about

Nazis in front of a German audience. We get a lot of Germans here at the Comedy Cellar for some reason. We get a lot of foreign people here and I often times will ask so who here is from Europe? Because I have a couple jokes in that area. And people will, we get Sweden,

we get who else do we get here a lot? We get France and we get a lot else do we get here a lot? We get France. And we get a lot of German people. And I... Some comedians will be like... They'll make a reference to it. But I, generally speaking, do not touch that era of history.

Why not? I just feel like it'll put everybody... It's like, you know... It's a tough one. I feel it'll put everybody in a weird place. And it's not their fault. I don't want to go after them. Because they weren't there.

Unless it's some 95-year-old guy. Then maybe he was there. But if it's somebody in their 30s... But there are more opportunities than going after someone. Like, for example... Not going after them, but just to bring up such a topic. I just feel like it might make them feel bad. It will probably get a laugh.

Yeah, but I mean, like, Godfrey talks about racism. Godfrey talks about racism in front of a white audience. I mean, that's almost the same, in a way. Maybe so, because racism is still ever present in America, it's still something that affects him, whereas this is history.

No, it's not. That's what I wanted to explain to you. Okay. Well, but I don't live it. You live it. Okay, yeah. That's maybe,

in Germany, you have a really big right-wing movement since five years, like really hard, and they, parts of them deny things from the Holocaust, and you years, like really hard and they, parts of them deny things from the

Holocaust and you have like Jewish people, people chasing them through the streets, like especially also many Arabic people, you've got this all and it's getting really weird again, you know, in a country where they're set never again. Is the right wing and the Arabic people, are they in the same team or are they... No, they're not in the same team, but it makes it even harder. Right, so the Jew in Germany is battling the right wing, that's sort of denying Holocaust and they're sort of like bringing back Nazism a little bit, but not really and then you have Is that what you're saying? Then you have the Arabic people who? Arabs

Yeah, sorry. No, I mean I'll correct you if you want. I know people often will ask That's actually a German thing to correct people, but you can do that Yeah, because I know I love a of friends, like French friends, for example. They'll say, you correct me when I make a mistake because I want to improve. But I feel like, I kind of feel like a dick after a while correcting them. And then I just let them go on about their merry way and saying, I want to take a coffee. You know, instead of have a coffee. They say, I want to take a coffee.

And I get tired of saying, it's have a coffee, you idiot. So eventually I just let it slide and say, let's have a coffee. They say, I want to take a coffee. And I get tired of saying, it's have a coffee, you idiot. So eventually I just let it slide and say, let's take a coffee. Yeah. What's the feeling here? Like, is it more, are you sensing more or less anti-Semitism? Has anything changed over the last years

in the time you've been doing what you're doing? Like, do you sense any difference? You mean in Germany? No, here. But in here, in the States. I wonder if... I know that the political climate has changed a lot. In der Staten.

Hm? Der Staten. You call the States der Staten? In den Staaten, yeah. In den Staaten. Do you sense anything? I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you guys sense in the crowds.

Because I don't stand up there. You guys get a sense of, I don't know, whatever in the crowds. I mean, I just started doing stand-up in English since one year. I started performing in New York. I performed on the stand in New York. You have to correct again. It's not since one year. I've been doing it for a year.

But again, I won't correct you if you don't want me to. No, it's okay. It's your podcast. No, I'm just saying some people like... Because otherwise people will go their whole lives. They'll be saying, making the same errors. Do you like to be corrected? He's your podcast. No, no, I'm just saying some people like, because otherwise people will go their whole lives. They'll be saying, making the same errors. Do you like to be corrected, he's asking you. Do you like or do you not want to be corrected?

I have problems taking decisions, so we shouldn't talk about that. You don't want to talk about Louis. I don't want to talk about decisions. I'm happy to talk about Louis, but the problem is we've talked about it. If you want to hear more about Louis, you can go back to the archives and hear all our Louis shit.

Okay, I want to answer your question. We get about Louis all the time. I feel, actually, I'm in Germany. I'm a stand-up comedian. I have TV shows, podcasts, blah, blah, blah. I'm doing well over there. But I'm here since some month, actually. Sorry, wrong, wrong.

I'm here since some... I've been here for a month. No, not for one month first okay fuck it i've been here the last month now and then back and forth back and forth so this is not a podcast it's like an english lesson actually well language is something that i find interesting because i've done comedy in french yeah and and and so i I'm very attuned to... Do you like to be corrected when you speak French?

I do. You do? I do like to be corrected. But most people don't do it because, again, they don't want to come off as... My aim is not to learn English perfect. And also in my act, people said, yeah, you have to...

I think I'm like how I am and I will be I promise you if I come back next year I'll be you won't have to correct me anymore give me some time and and know what I wanted to say is I feel much more comfortable here I realized now and you're asking how is it to perform into in front of a German audience what happened at the beginning was when I said I was Jewish, I came on stage, made all these jokes, you first had to explain that the setup that Jewish people get circumcised. Otherwise you couldn't make a joke about circumcision. So that was a bit annoying. You had to explain so much and and what also happened was that people mixed it up that

it was comedy but they didn't want it to be comedy because they there was this jewish guy coming up on stage making these jokes and the german said to me no you cannot make these jokes they were and i said why i'm talking about why can't i make and it was really weird at parts. They were scared? They were offended? They were offended, yeah. They didn't want to hear it. I mean, that's... But the weird thing is, I mean...

Why, you know, offended? I mean, they should... I'm a comedian, yeah. And then my material also became much more controversial, like pedophilia, racism, and they were really confused. I think I wasn't like in my... what I talked about, I wasn't political, I was a politikum, I don't know, like a German Jew making stand-up comedy was the politic thing in a way sorry my

English is not so good and to answer your question I've been like performing now in some clubs here in New York like Caroline's, the Stand New York and I opened up for Godfrey in the in the village last year

and I feel much more comfortable doing stand-up here, and my act, I feel free. It's like I'm suddenly, someone is cutting my chainsaw. Well, we have a lot of, I mean, here at the Comedy Cellar in particular,

we have a lot of comedians that are not native English speakers, but do comedy in English, like Daniel Simonson, who is from Norway. And this guy, this Rafi somebody, or Bastos, he's Brazilian. Oh, yeah. And there was this guy, Middleman, he was a German guy. I haven't seen him in a while.

What's his name? You know, Eric Middleman, was that his name? Something like that. Mittelmeyer. Yeah, so he was here. But anyway, comedy is becoming more of a... And Louis, by the way, wants to do comedy in Spanish. At some point, he's trying to improve his Spanish.

But for me, it's not the task to do it in a... Right, I understand. There is a desire between... Behind, like, maybe moving away from Germany and... Well, how do you feel about... I mean, Germany is a country where you were born and raised. How do you feel about Germany? Do you have any patriotism towards it?

No. Not at all. I don't have any feelings towards Germany. Not necessarily negative, but not positive either. No, more negative. More negative, okay. And I wanted to answer something. Maybe the answer for your question would be a quote from David Tell.

Wrong hole. No, no, no. He said- That's one of his quotes. Oliver, you're German, you're Jewish, and you're a comedian. Oliver, I tell you six million reasons why that can't work. David Tell. Clever guy, David Tell. Clever guy, David Tell. So your next move is to move to the United States.

Is that? That is the goal, like that I live here and I do just my TV stuff. I go over there to do that and then, yeah. Well, how is it legally? I know, Laura, you're an immigration. You're interested in immigration. Am I? I don't know. My mom's an immigration attorney. I'm certainly, because, you're an immigration. You're interested in immigration. Am I? I don't know.

My mom's an immigration attorney. I'm certainly, because my mom's an immigration attorney. For some reason, I thought there was an association. I'm the only non-immigrant in my family. All my siblings and my parents are all immigrants. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm the only American. I mean, I'm very, like, all about this conversation.

Well, so do you need to fill any paperwork, or can you stay here maybe four months a year without any paperwork? No, I'm not going to come illegally. No, but I'm saying I think you can come here. You can call my mom. No, I think I try to get a working visa because I have a podcast in Germany on Audible, and it's Amazon Audible International,

so hopefully they can help me. Or you could come here, you know, for shorter periods of time. Or you could adopt me and teach me English. Yeah, find someone special. Well, I could, I don't know if I'll adopt you, but I'm too old to be adopted. But I could certainly help you with your English. How old are you? I'm old. I'm 50.

I'm 43, yeah. But, you know alright anyway I have a question can I ask you guys a follow up I thought that was an interesting take you're saying you won't talk about generally I won't

talk about the Holocaust if there's a German in the audience I feel like it's going to make everybody you're saying like you won't talk about your, your generally, I won't talk about the Holocaust. Well, I actually, I think there's a German in the audience. Like, I feel like it's going to make everybody in a weird thing. We talk about like, I know in con, I don't know like enough about the comedy world to,

to know. I, but it does feel like everybody has their own like ethical, like I won't go here. Like some people like nothing's off the table, but some people like I have my own, like I'll relate this. everything I do in my career. I relate to technology to some degree.

So I was just I was cutting down an interview I did today with a guy talking about ethics and war. And I asked him the question like artificial intelligence. You're building out technology. Will your A.I. kill or not kill. Right. And every like tech person like is there technology you will not build, right? So I'm always kind of trying to push the thing. So as comedians, I guess I ask, is there a subject that you will not go

or do you have something that for you is just no? Well, I'm saying I won't talk about the Holocaust in front of Germans, but I do have a couple of Hitler jokes. But Hitler is Holocaust. I know, but I'm saying if there's a German in the audience and I know he's there and everybody's kind of looking at him. Right, it's not about you and the German audience members.

But it's comedy. I mean, we are comedians. The world out there is much rougher and harder than every joke could be. We do jokes. There's like no line that you won't crack. It's just a personal decision. Not because I judge others that do it, but because I just choose not to do it. Because I make a decision that this isn't going to put the audience in the spirit that I would prefer.

That's interesting. So that's something you don't like to do. Is there something I won't do? I don't have any moral or ethical qualms about making jokes about anything. I think it has to be funny. If you can make it funny, you're good. If for some reason I thought it would incite hatred, then I wouldn't do it. That's interesting, though.

I don't know. As long as it's about me, then I don't mind it. That's interesting though. I don't know. As long as it's about me then I don't mind talking about anything. But I don't want to talk about other people. I would never talk about I'm not interested in other people. I wouldn't talk about a fat girl. I have nothing to do with a fat girl

so I wouldn't want to talk about fat girls on stage. A fat guy I can talk about because I'm a fat guy. I used to be fatter. guy I can't talk about because I'm a fat guy. I used to be fatter. No, you're not fat. But I can't talk about anything that I'm not. Yeah.

I wouldn't. That's so interesting. Yeah, that is really interesting. I'm very personal. I'm very personal on stage. I will never forget when Bobby, I don't know how to say his last name, but like in high school,

I was roller skating and it was very tough for me. When were you in high school? In the 70s? No, maybe it was middle school. And he was like, fat girl, fat girl, what you gonna do

when she comes for you? And to this day, I still remember that. So you were fat in high school? Oh, yeah. No, middle school. You look very thin now. No, it's fine.

And this isn't like cute Jewish girl being like, I was fat. It was like, I feel like I have a decent personality because of...

That's actually an amazing thing. Well, you're very thin now. I feel like I have a decent personality. Because of middle school and Bobby. Thank you, Bobby. I appreciate your ethical line that you're crossing. I don't know. That's just the way I've always

done comedy. I don't judge others that do jokes about this, that, or the other thing. I personally have certain things that I wouldn't joke about. But you don't get super personal. I wouldn't joke about a midget because it's been overdone. Mostly because it's overdone and because... You may ask us something.

You're talking about language. A midget's probably not even a nice word. But you're not allowed to... You shouldn't say midget, should you? Well, little person. Well, whatever. A little person. No, no, I'm sorry. You started correcting me and I have to, you don't say midget. Well, as I said, I asked if you wish to be corrected.

And if you don't wish to be corrected, that's perfectly fine. No, no, no. I was just that's something I learned. You're right, Oliver. You should not be saying midget. Oliver, you're correct. Dwarfism. Dwarf or little person. And I wouldn't I don't have. Dwarfism. No, you can't be saying midget. Oliver, you're correct. Dwarfism. Dwarf or little person. Dwarfism is a scientific term. I'm very sure that it's...

You're allowed to say dwarf. Dwarf is fine, Oliver. I say dwarf. Oliver, the dwarf is okay. Listen, I'm okay with anything. A little person is different than dwarfism, right? The point is the M word... That's a good question. What is M The point is the M word is off the table. It's not considered polite.

So Oliver is correct about that. Do you know that Freddie Mercury had a party in Ibiza where he hired, I think, about 30, well, now we'll say little people, and had them painted gold, and they were walking around with trays of cocaine for one of his parties. Ah, no, but this is

fantastic. And we thought the cellar party was good the other night. Oh, by the way, I want to talk about that briefly. The comedy cellar had a party. I forgot about it. I was going to bring that up. Perrielle, I appreciate you bringing it up. The comedy cellar had a holiday party the other night, on Monday. Now it's February. What holiday? Oh, for President's bringing it up. The Comedy Cellar had a holiday party the other night on Monday. Now it's February.

What holiday? Oh, for President's Day? No, no. Because for some reason they don't want to have a holiday party at holiday time in December for whatever reason. Well, it's busy. It's very busy now. It's busy time. So they have a holiday party every year in February. Where were you?

I was looking for you. I forgot about it. Liz texted me to come, and I said, sure, yeah, I'll be there, and I forgot about it. But would I have forgotten about it if it were in December? Probably not. Because I'm in a Christmas mood in December. Are you? Yes. Are you in a Christmas mood in December?

I was going to say, first answer that question, then I'll ask my follow-up. What was your question? I just don't really feel like I remember you being in a Christmas mood in December. Well, I am, and if you saw me at a holiday party in December, you would have seen it more

clearly. I feel like I saw you at least once a week in December. The point is, I don't believe in holiday parties that are not at holiday time. I've said this before on the show, so forgive me for beating this dead horse. Okay. But every February or January when they have a holiday party, I bring this up. Holiday parties are meant for holiday time. I call it not a holiday party.

What's a party? I call it an annual party. An annual staff party. And we're part of the... Why do you call it a staff party? Don't call it an annual. But February is a tough month if you have seasonal affective disorder.

And one of every five people do. It's like there's no sun. It's really cold. You're not in the holiday season. So it's kind of cool to throw a party then. I appreciate it. I appreciate it now. My mom was going to be like, what is a holiday party with a bunch of comedians? Are you guys funny when you're drunk?

I dance for six hours straight. What do you guys do? I dance. Who's the most? You've hung out with us in that context. So you tell us. I got trashed and I danced for six hours straight. What was the song?

I was yelling at the DJ and then they told me to stop yelling at him because I only dance to disco. Only disco. I'll only dance to disco in the 80s. I've never seen that much food in my life. But not from the chef, right? Was this before he got fired? Well, no.

No one would have ordered out from somewhere. They set up a tattoo parlor in the middle of... Are you serious? I got to say, that is pretty ballsy to set up a tattoo. I mean, people were real ballsy. But they didn't do numbers, did they? They were booked. They were booked.

Nice callback. Oh, my God. did they? They were booked. They were booked. Nice callback. Oh, my God. No, but they were booked. Yeah, it was insane. At one point, you're like, can I get a tattoo? And they're like, no, we don't have any room. We have like 30 people online waiting to get tattooed. Isn't it the whole thing you're supposed to not?

I guess that's a stupid question for me to ask. What? Like a tattoo, aren't there like rules that they're not supposed to come in and do it when people are very drunk? I don't know. That might be an ethical quandary. Has anyone on the table got a tattoo? I do not.

I'm tattoo free. I don't think we're at a fully tattoo free table. I'm chewy like that. I won't get a tattoo. I would have done a tattoo, but there was nothing in my life where I thought, I want to keep this all my life on my... There's one thing, I've got this favorite band from Norway, they're called Motorcycle.

They named themselves from the Russ Meyer film, after the Russ Meyer film, sorry. I think four would be okay in that context. Thank you. Prepositions, by the way, are notoriously difficult in a foreign language. And they have this really shitty tribal, but it's like

this band means so much for me. I was thinking about doing that tribal over my shoulders, but then somehow I never know. Just to follow up on the preposition point

that I was making. You know, you're in a car, but you're on a bus. Interesting. Yeah, go figure. So that can be tricky. But there's no tattoos at this table. Not yet.

Peral's waving to somebody. Anyway, I believe just to... What's the matter, Dan? Do you have to go? No, I'm fine. I believe holiday parties should be at holiday time when everybody's in the Christmas mood and we can sing Christmas songs. You always sing.

Yeah, but I don't sing Christmas songs unless it's Christmas time. I started because I love also this mood of Christmas because I never had it. I started... They don't have Christmas in Germany? No, I'm Jewish. Tannenbaum? Yeah, yeah, they have it,

but we never had the Tannenbaum in the... We never had it, you know. It's like in our flat, there was no Christmas tree. No, but you can enjoy it when you go outside. Stopping or when you go to wherever. I tell you,

in Germany, I was the only Jew living in the city, yeah. Is that true? You were the only Jew? And yeah, my parents, yeah. Right. But I tell you, the Christmas... you have the 24th of December, you have the celebration in Germany.

This was the most horrible day of the year for me because I was fucking bored. I couldn't meet any one of my friends. No one was there. I couldn't call anyone to stir up. I was just sitting there playing with my Hanukkah gifts, and it was just fucking boring. Am I allowed to say fucking? Yeah, this is not terrestrial ready.

You can say anything you want. Okay, just spelling should be right, but I can't insult people. The spelling is right. Well, if you don't say since, I've been doing it since. I mean, you can say it, but it's not technically correct. You can curse. He just has a problem with your grammar. I don't even have a problem with his grammar, I'm trying to help the man. Yes.

May I contact you after this if I have problems? If you'd like, or you can just get Grammarly.com, which is, getting back to Laurie Siegel, she's a tech person, by the way. She writes about tech, but Laurie, getting back to that, I wanted to ask you if you had any... I just saw for the first time The Social Network. I'd never seen it.

I know it's a 10-year-old movie. I'd never seen it. But... About Facebook, right? I know it's about Facebook. With the twins. With the twins. Oh, yeah.

Those guys. First of all, did you think the twins really were owed anything? Other than the fact that Zuckerberg was kind of an asshole to them? Do you think, I mean, they told him, oh, we have an idea, we want to have a social network that takes place at Harvard. Is that

enough to deserve $100 million? I don't think so. I don't think so. Especially because social networks were already in existence. Because he did all the work. Yeah, I think it's also, these founding stories are really interesting, and like, it wouldn't, it probably wouldn't have been anything, I think it's like it's also these founding stories are really interesting. And like it wouldn't probably wouldn't have been anything, I think, like without everything that Zuckerberg did. I know the Winklevise, the Winklevi twins.

And I've asked Zuckerberg about it. It's actually really fun. It's something that's like an interesting tidbit. We like tidbits. Where are those guys now? They're on Raya. They're doing Bitcoin. They are on Raya. I think one of them is, actually.

Not together, I'm assuming. No, Cameron. So they are doing Bitcoin. They're very into Bitcoin. They've done very well, I think, at the Bitcoin realm. Tyler and Cameron. And they settled a lawsuit with Facebook. And actually, what's really interesting, so I interviewed Mark Zuckerberg

about, and I actually asked him about the social network. And something you'll hear, because I did this for the documentary I did, something you'll hear consistently when you ask people in the Facebook, inner Facebook thing, like what's like something that really bothers a lot of people at Facebook. One of the things like there have been so many privacy disasters, like a lot of things, ups and downs the company's gone through and becoming the huge company it is today. But something you consistently hear that bothered people at Facebook was the social network and the characterization of Zuckerberg and what happened. And it's still, I think to this day, I've spoken to Randy, who is Mark's sister. People are very upset by the characterization

of how people were characterized. So you're saying it was not accurate, how it was portrayed, how... Because the way it was in the movie is the wink of us is that we had this idea, and Zuckerberg was like, oh, okay, I'm down, I'll work with you. By the way, it's anybody, anyone can have... An idea is an idea. And I'll tell you this from having covered tech for 10 years, right? Like an idea is an idea and it's important, but that is only the first thing. Like, you know,

someone can have like an idea for a joke, right? Like, but it takes like execution, resilience, insanity, timing, everything to make a good. And, and people have asked me, well, what makes a good startup founder? Because I've seen like, you know, the founders of Instagram, Uber, all these people succeed. And more than that, like people fail. And it really isn't about being the smartest person in the room, about having an idea. It's like being the most resilient. And something Zuckerberg did that I don't know if like people understand is like, you think about Instagram, he bought Instagram during the quiet period when the company was going public um where you're not supposed to do anything he went out and for a billion dollars and everyone by the way a billion dollars is nothing now to buy a

company he bought what's that for 22 billion dollars everyone thought so everyone thought Zuckerberg was crazy and he that ended up being like the best thing in the world the company could have done because now you look at Instagram it it's one of the most popular things for Facebook when you think about the future of Facebook. So there are so many times people thought Zuckerberg was insane when he turned down an offer from Yahoo. Yahoo wanted to buy the company for, I'm forgetting how much, but an insane amount, and he said no.

He had employees leave the company. So a lot of people, um, he's got a lot of money. Well, don't remember. He's got a lot of money. Don't, don't remember the foresight, um, that some of these people have that at the time seems like insanity. And so, you know, you've got to be, if you want to be a good founder, be willing to be, I think unpopular and have foresight to a degree and also have an insane amount of resilience. So was it, do I think like he was probably, and we have like the conversations at Zuckerberg where he's calling them, I'm going to take the idea, say all this stuff.

Like, sure. Like was, do I think he was, he behaved poorly and was probably, you know, not great in that situation? I'm sure he wasn't, you know't. Could they have done what he did? I think knowing so much about the company now, I don't think they could have. But they still got a payout.

How long do you think Facebook will exist in its current form? Is it possible to take Facebook down at this point? Remember MySpace? It came and went. Right, it came and went right it came and went so maybe there'll be something you don't know but the thing about facebook is this if i want to become the number one automaker i can create the greatest car and people will buy that car but if i create the greatest social network i need to have everybody on that social network already.

That's what makes it great, the fact that everybody's already there. So even if it's functionally better, if I create a functionally better social network, but if nobody's on it, then by definition, it sucks. So how do you take down a colossus at this point, because Facebook's bigger than MySpace ever was,

is it possible to take it down with a similar product? Well, I also think you've got to remember that Facebook isn't just Facebook anymore. Facebook is WhatsApp. I'm talking about Facebook Classic. Well, I don't know if Facebook Classic will exist in 10, 20 years from now. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't even exist anymore. I think we have this idea that Facebook is this, like, natural place to be, but as we've learned in the past several years,

it's quite sinister. And Mark, I think... Well, forget about sinister. No, but you can't forget about sinister. It's got billions of people on it. But it doesn't matter. No, but even Zuckerberg has said that the future is privacy.

So if you look, he does these New Year's resolutions every year, and he'll post them on Facebook. And this year, he didn't do it. He decided, okay, in 2030, this is what Facebook's going to look like. And he said the future is going to be privacy. So even Zuckerberg is basically saying it's not going to just be Facebook. It's going to be more private networks, probably within Facebook. I think the future will be augmented reality, will be WhatsApp, will be Instagram,

will be all these different things. Oliver, you say what? No, I think Facebook is dead. It's like Detroit. Everyone has moved away. But it's not dead. I think so. It's more like old people.

I mean, we're on Instagram the whole time. We communicate now. Instagram is, Facebook owns Instagram. I know, I mean, we're on Instagram the whole time. We communicate now. Instagram is, Facebook owns Instagram. I know, I know, but it's still the older generation.

Facebook is uncool, but you know what else is uncool? Not liking Facebook? The telephone is uncool. Once something becomes uncool, it becomes like the standard. You know,

I mean, like right now, I know when I speak to my dad. I don't post anymore on Facebook. I just, I used to, and I, you know. mean like right now I know I don't post anymore on Facebook I just I used to

and I you know Facebook is I use it Instagram to me for 40 and up by the way Instagram

for 40 and up but also if you're 20, 25 no one's going on Facebook but also 25 year olds maybe not but also Facebook to me

is where you can have real conversations and debates whereas Instagram nobody has debates on Instagram you can't have conversation and debates in the internet I where you can have real conversations and debates whereas Instagram nobody has debates on Instagram you can't have conversations and debates

in the internet I think you should have them like here ideally yes because there's so many fucked up people when was the last time you went on Instagram

and actually learned something there was no nobody puts articles on Instagram nobody has discussions on Instagram Instagram is I'm feeling really cute today

and I wanted to show you love this dress, whatever, that kind of stuff. But you're wrong, you're wrong. Nobody's saying, yeah,

it's easy breezy. It's easy breezy. In a way, but I'm friends with, for example, the New Yorker, yeah, the magazine,

yeah, on Instagram. So they posted a few days ago an article, I'm sorry to say that, about Louis, yeah, like one week ago. And then I saw it on Instagram, I'm sorry to say that, about Louis, like one week ago.

And then I saw it on Instagram. I clicked on the link and I was reading it. And the good thing, what I like about Instagram, I don't have to discuss with idiots, you know. I just read it myself and maybe I talk with friends who also read it, but I don't want to discuss on

Instagram. That's horrible. Or on Facebook. You enjoy that? Like, what's horrible. Or on Facebook. Or Twitter. You enjoy that? Twitter and Facebook. This is like insulting at the end. I do enjoy it, but I like to beat my head against the wall. Because I will often have discussions, and I never convince anybody of anything.

Nobody convinces anything of anything on Facebook. That's ridiculous. I know you don't actually think that you're changing people's minds. No, but I enjoy scrapping. I'm a scrapper. I enjoy scrapping. But people are having those conversations and those arguments on Twitter. I enjoy that.

You're just where it's, I mean, that's where it's happening. It's on Twitter. Twitter also. Yeah, Twitter also I enjoy. Is that what you do? You spend your days? I don't spend the whole day. Is that what you spend your days arguing with people on social media?

No, but I spend some amount of time. Okay, can you give me some advice? In between Tinder swiping. How much time? How many hours do you spend a day arguing? It depends on the day. Today I wasn't feeling well, so I was at home the whole day. Yeah, and on Twitter?

I was on Twitter a little bit. Really? Are you on Twitter? I don't post a little bit. Really? Are you on Twitter? I don't post a lot, but I like, well, enter keywords. So I'll say, like, Bloomberg racism, just to see what people are saying about Bloomberg and racism. Or Bloomberg stop and frisk, just to see people's opinions and get articles on that issue,

because that's a big issue now, because Bloomberg is, tonight, I believe believe is a debate, by the way. You've jumped on a lot of my posts. And I jump on your posts. Not the silly ones, but the real legitimate ones. Yeah, I post a lot of silly ones. What does he do? Is he antagonistic?

Yeah, he is. He's a troublemaker, but I let it go because I love Dan. So I'm like, all right. Laurie had something to interject. No, I didn't. I just worry what's getting lost a little bit. What's getting lost?

Well, in the time I started coming to these companies, I like to look at, like, first of all, what is the algorithm optimizing on Facebook to show you, right? And like,

what things are you seeing? And, you know, and what are you commenting on and what bubble are you living? I think that's like a larger question we have to ask as society.

And like, and they tweak the algorithm every so often. And I think we have to talk, we have to, you know, be careful about that. So ridiculous. You know, and I think there's a lot of trust have to, you know, be careful. Ridiculous.

You know, and I think there's a lot of trust for putting these tech companies and they don't even, they're trying to figure out the answers. Like I, I remember, you know, even being at Facebook and saying, uh,

to Zuckerberg, like, are you the editor in chief now? Like, because they're deciding what posters staying up, what are going down. Now they're trying to, they have a whole process by which to do that.

But why did they let all of that horrible shit happen? Like, why did they let, like, all of those, like, Russian bots and the whole. Look, I think there is a lot. I think that, you know, there's a lot of stuff that went into that that they missed. Like, was that just like a straight business decision where they just like, sure, we're going to take the money. And who was it? Somebody did a TED Talk about how if the Nazis were. Oh, it was Sacha Baron Cohen.

Excuse me. Don't be rude. It was Sacha Baron Cohen did. It wasn't a TED Talk. He did a really sort of moving speech. It was like Charlie Chaplin, the dictator. That's how good that was. He's wrong, in my opinion.

It's not for Zuckerberg to decide what should go on and what should not. She's not an expert in that. She's not an expert in whether free speech is... She's not a First Amendment lawyer. Well, I don't think you have to be a First Amendment lawyer. But I will say, I think that the problem of social media and free speech, I've interviewed Zuckerberg, and I've looked at the issue closely, and I think it's much more nuanced. I think you the problem of social media and free speech, I've interviewed Zuckerberg and I've looked at the issue closely. And I think like and I think it's much more nuanced.

I think you're right. Like I think what he said was interesting, but it is complicated. And I think we have to it's easy to weigh in on it, but we have to. And this is for tech companies and for us. I'm interested in what you think as a tech person. I think we have to like we have to figure out what we're willing to give up, too. And, like, what we're willing to accept as a society. Like, what do we want our tech companies to do, right?

Like, do we really want them patrolling, like, what we're going to say? And to what extent? And I actually think, so a good example, I mean, not to get too in the weeds, is, like, political ads, right? A lot of people are saying about these companies, like, oh, we should ban, they need to be banning political ads, right? A lot of people are saying about these companies like, oh, we should ban, they need to be banning political ads, right? Facebook needs to ban political ads because a lot of these political ads are blatantly false and they're spreading, and this is spreading disinformation, and it's horrible.

Well, if Facebook bans political ads, a lot of things are going to happen, and it's going to make it easier. And so the argument is from one side is that it's going to make it easier on the incumbents. And then I think you also have to, I think, have a more nuanced argument, which is it's not just about banning political ads. It's about micro-targeting. Like this is actually me getting very in the weeds on it.

But it's not really the issue isn't just about political ads. It's about the fact that these political ads are being micro-targeted to certain people. Yeah. Isn't that like super sinister? So maybe we need to have a conversation, but people have to understand it better. And Facebook needs to do a better job of talking about it. And we have to do a better job of listening about it. But like, you know, it's more about like, should you be able to micro target?

It's the same thing. Like, it's okay if we micro target you for deodorant, for advertising, right? To say like, oh, like this kind of population might be the best kind of micro-targeted population for this. But when it comes to democracy, like should we be micro-targeting to this degree, to this extent, and maybe there should be a limit here. And I think that's actually a debate people should be having. Yeah, I agree with you.

But my whole thing, and this is what I was talking about with creating dot dot dot, is like some of these conversations get so just like black and white and good and bad. And the tech companies don't make it easier on themselves because sometimes they go into their corners and they do things in certain ways. And then I don't think especially soundbite culture, Twitter, Facebook doesn't make it easier to have these debates, especially now that these are multi billion dollar companies. So, you know, I think there's a lot of nuance that goes missing when it comes to these ethical questions. But the question of free speech is a big one. And I think we actually have to figure out what we're willing to accept

because there are trade-offs. So what are you saying? You think it's fine? I think that people should be able to... But it's not people. Zuckerberg should not be deciding what is appropriate and not appropriate politically, politically anyway to say on Facebook. I think it should just be a free kind of an environment and let the caveat emptor

let the consumer beware. Do you think that if sorry, do you think that if they're going to do that it should be more transparent? Because that's the part that I sort of take more issue with, is that it doesn't seem that transparent to me. So it seems very manipulative. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I think part of what you're saying is that a lot of these policies need better explanations.

You need to explain why something is happening and why something isn't happening in certain ways. I haven't experienced that. And you know what? My home feed, I pretty much have, I'm going to say a 50-50 Republican-Democrat home feed. I have, let's say, a thousand friends. 500-500 are Democrat and 500 are... So I don't think... So I'm not getting one-sided anything, I don't think.

I get a lot of everything. So I don't know. I think we need to teach people. Is it us also? I think we need to teach people. Yes. We need to teach people to be logical and not stupid. We need to smack people in the head and say, don't believe everything you read.

Don't we create our own algorithms? Don't we create them? Yeah, but whenever you see something on... We're to blame. Blame yourself. Whenever you read on Facebook, you have to learn how to cross-reference Google and not believe everything you read

and have an open mind and be logical. Don't be a dummy. Yeah, but that is the general problem. Problem education. But there's one point you didn't talk about. As you said, WhatsApp is Facebook is Instagram. What I realized, for example,

if I write on Instagram with a friend, I wrote, hey, let's go to Asia. My dream is I want to ride on an elephant. I just wrote this in a private WhatsApp chat. So not even half an hour later, on Instagram, Facebook, seven days, I get advertisements riding on an elephant in Thailand. That just happened to me today. That's a privacy issue.

Now they're looking at your private message. You'll notice it everywhere now. Well, they're looking at your private messages, and now that becomes a privacy issue. You'll notice it everywhere now. Well, they're looking at your private messages and now that becomes a privacy issue. And I haven't noticed that. Oh, really? In terms of my instant messages? No, no.

Or just posts. Public posts are usually best. No, no. It's really private. It's not private. You know, I don't... Yeah, it's not. You think it's private. Yeah, it's not. It You know, I don't... Yeah, it's not. You think it's private.

Yeah, it's not. It's just because it's said... Yeah. It looks like it's private. It's misleading. It's deceptive. That's what I'm saying. Exactly.

It's misleading. WhatsApp. That's the sinister thing. And what happened is... Well, then there should be a way to opt out of that. Yeah, but... But what do you think? It's free, right?

So you're giving away your information. Yeah, but that's the problem. We're all using this. We should not be using it. That's right. That's right. We should use different sites. We shouldn't use this. We should not be using it. That's right. We should use different sites. We shouldn't use Facebook.

We should use a site that is secure, where you know this is not selling your information about you. But you have that always. Like, if I would look up now a hat from Carhartt or something on some page, suddenly you get for one week, hey, this, that. Or maybe just accept the privacy. Oliver, were you able to find a good ride on an elephant?

Yeah, or maybe just accept it. I decided at the end to ride on myself. I don't like it. They're looking at instant messages. If I Google something and the algorithm gives me ads for that.

I don't mind it as much as if I'm on an instant message with somebody saying I'd like to go to Thailand on an instant message, mind you. Yeah, of course. And then I'm getting ads for Thailand. I'm glad I didn't write in the chat, hey, I like little boys from Thailand. And suddenly you get like weird stuff and the police is coming to you. I only wrote about elephants. Yeah. You get weird stuff and the police is coming to you. I only wrote about elephants.

It's an illusion of privacy. Well, it's true. I think it's a really important point. Well, it's not an illusion. If you're seeing ads two seconds later, then it's pretty obvious that it's not private. I haven't noticed that with instant messages. I'm not a very private person. I don't care about privacy. I'm not a fan either. it's not private. I haven't noticed that with instant messages. I'm not a very private person. I don't care about privacy.

I'm not a fan either. That's the thing. My whole thing is I think these are super important questions. I think even as important, if not more important, are also questions of tech and mental health and how it's going to impact relationships. I was interviewing someone recently who's a neuroscience brain hacker, and he was telling me about how in the future he thinks we'll be able to order our dreams and how neural link technology will make our brains hackable,

like, and all sorts of crazy stuff. And then the future of disinformation will be like, instead of see people being able to manipulate us on Facebook, they'll be able to change our thoughts. So crazy black mirror stuff. But then I said to him, what do you think is the most important, the most ethical issue coming down the pipeline when it comes to the future of tech and humans? And he's like, I think the scariest thing is that like our future kids, when they grow up, they're not going to be in relationships

or sleeping with each other, anything like that. And like people aren't able to like to touch anymore. On the future. But I, you know, and I actually think maybe like there, there's something there where like, I think there's, you know, I think with looking at issues like mental health and love and connection, like I think tech has really disrupted some things in a, in a pretty, in a, in a way that's, that I think we're still trying to figure out. That's why Shabbat is really important.

I know a lot of people who do Shabbat and really put their phone away. You're right about that. You gotta shut down once a week. talk to people in front of you. You're right. Eat that extra dessert. We're addicted. We're not happier necessarily. We're just addicted.

You should practice talking to someone on the street, just randomly saying things to people. Why would I do that for? I don't know. I think it's good practice. But you know what the next level is? You talk about being socially awkward. I feel like it's a good practice. You know what the next level is of that advertisement thing I was just talking about?

That they're going to, what they want to do now is that you don't only see it in your feed on Facebook. They're going to cooperate with digital advertising walls, which means if I would have looked for an elephant ride, I would maybe walk in a station somewhere where they have digital advertisements and they will show me the advertisement that suits to me what I was looking for. Extreme personalization isn't that the worst thing to me? And they're going to show this to you. So in a way, they're going to manipulate you with your stuff.

If you're carrying your phone. Yes, because you don't think about it. And then you see it again and again. So I remember during the Cambridge Analytica scandal, I remember the thing going off of that that I thought was like the biggest thing that kind of went missing. The question was like, when does micro-targeting and trying to target you turn into manipulation? And I think that'll be a big question. You could ask that same question with ads in general.

Yeah. An ad for Lay's Potato Chips is manipulating even an old-fashioned ad on the TV in the middle of the Super Bowl. You're trying to manipulate me into eating those Lay's Potato Chips. So advertising is by nature manipulative. At what point does it cross some sort of line? I don't know. There's a question I think that's been around for a long time. When I did a piece on Ashley Madison, the cheating website, I was like obsessed with Ashley Madison. Yeah, that's a fascinating.

Super fascinating. Dude, you know, Ashley Madison was this, and it still exists, but I think they changed the name. It was like a website people could go to. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. You might be able to describe it because I'm like in it. Basically, you could go cheat on your wife. Really?

Well, that was the idea, but it was a dating site for cheaters. Yeah. But it was more like they sold it to you. It was like, if you're unhappy, you could go anonymously, get on there, and find other people. And it was like a safe space for people to kind of find each other and cheat together, whatever, or find someone else. And so it was sold as like the secret anonymous place. And so it got hacked. Which is amazing.

It was fascinating. So these vigilante hackers, God, I'm forgetting. And exposed everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exposed everyone. But I was really interested in it because it was almost like this modern day Scarlet Letter. Like I remember sitting in the CNN newsroom and having people come up to me and being

like whispering, like, is so-and-so on the list? Can you check and see if so-and-so is on the list and it was really this like fascinating like everybody's personal information came out yeah like it was like oh my god was so like heidi fleiss's little black book yeah it's like you know their favorite positions what they want their fetishes that's kind of crazy with ones and zeros of like code was fascinating and and and also really kind of sad too and just this way of like there was just this like we were all looking and seeing. And so I was digging into it for a documentary I did on it. And something they did, something Ashley Madison, the people who started Ashley Madison were very smart.

And they went to researchers, like very good researchers. I think it was like MIT or one of these places. And they looked at when people cheat. And they did a bunch of research on when people cheat. And they decided to do targeted advertising towards them. And they found that I think like men on Sundays or something after they go to church are more likely to cheat on their wives. That's my favorite thing I've ever heard.

And so at certain hours of the day, would send over like send Ashley Madison like ads to people on Sundays. So they targeted That makes a lot of sense. The church makes them horny. Well, like it's like once you confess, you're good. But it was psycho.

It's like all manipulated. It's like all like, okay, we as human beings like are more susceptible at certain times, certain moments. And so it was really interesting to watch them.

So the same way they would target you for, like, cereal, they target you to get you in a weaker moment to cheat. So I thought that was really interesting. And that's, like, that real ethical of, like, is this okay? Definitely not okay. I know. Anyway, so I always ask those questions. Like I said, all advertising seeks to manipulate.

Yeah, no, you're right about that. So why is that crossing a line? I love getting manipulated, but not... How do you like getting manipulated? Well, I don't love getting manipulated. What I mean to say is I really... I think it's amazing if you can manipulate somebody else. But if you know a little bit more about psychology

than somebody else, you can manipulate them. I mean, the fact is that most people aren't particularly bright. No, but then you're being conned. I don't really love manipulators. Look, guys, we have to wrap this up. Thank you, Lori Siegel, who you can find on her podcast. First Contact. First Contact. First Contact, wherever podcasts are available.

Danny Cohen. Instagram, Danny Cohen Comedy. And Oliver Pollack. Can I watch you in German subtitled? Watch your Instagram. Yeah, do it. Oliver Pollack Official. O-L-I-V-E-R-P-O-L-A-K.

Yeah. Official. And, yeah, if you want to watch something in English, I just uploaded, sorry, uploaded. Yeah, it's uploaded. Yeah, that's right. I was going to say loaded up. So I was like, you looked at me and I was like, wow.

Uploaded a clip, my first performance at Caroline's, like six-minute clip. But do you have any subtitled German clips that are subtitled? No, not yet. But if you do speak German, if you're one of our numerous Germanophone listeners, then you can watch that. Yes, I would love to. I would be very happy if you would come to Berlin with Louis C.K. on May 20th. And I can show you Berlin. And I would be very happy, because happy strudel to you as well. And you can follow us at livefromthetable on Instagram.

That is correct. And you can email us. Suggestions, comments and criticisms. And we love to hear from you guys. At ComedyCellar, at podcast at ComedyCellar.com. And we'll see you next time. Bye-bye.