The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Sam Morril, Sean Donnelly, and ACLU Attorney

Episode Date: March 3, 2017

Sam Morril and Sean Donnelly are prominent standup comedians based in New York City. They can regularly be seen performing at the Comedy Cellar. Lee Rowland is a senior staff attorney with the ACLU's Speech, Privacy, and Technology Project. She also serves as an adjunct clinical professor for NYU Law’s Technology Law and Policy Clinic, and is a member of the New York Bar Association’s Communications and Media Law Committee

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. We're here at The Comedy Cellar table. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. I'm here with Sean Donnelly and Mr. Sam Morell as well as Mr. Dan Natterman as usual and we're going to be joined by a woman from the American Civil Liberties Union.

So what did you want to talk about for us Dan? Hi, sit down. Well first of all, welcome back Noam. The past two episodes I had to sail this ship solo because Noam was out of town. And last week he was vacationing in Fort Myers, Florida. Oh, rough place.

The entertainment capital of... I did a weekend at a club there once. Oh, really? It was rough. Yeah, there's nothing to do there. A lot of white folded arms. Is that the comedy cat? Not the comedy cat.

I did not like me. What's it called? It was called Belushi. It's named after the less funny Belushi. At the gym? Yeah. Let me introduce... Well, no, I just want to get to...

Just posters of the principal everywhere. Remember the gym? Yeah. Let me introduce... Well, no, I just want to get to... Just posters of the principal everywhere. Remember the principal? Well, Noam, the week prior, Noam was in Las Vegas. Yeah. Because I don't know if you guys heard the news. What? The Comedy Cellar is opening up in Las Vegas, Nevada. Is that true?

When's the grand opening? Sin City. You have to learn how to say Nevada if you're going to open a club there. Oh, Dan. That was ACLU lawyer Lee something or other. Is that true? Senior staff attorney with the ACLU Speech Privacy and Technology Project.

She's recently entered an NPR where she explained why the ACLU supports free speech rights of Milo Yiannopoulos. I want to talk about Milo. Yes, we do want to and we're pleased to have her back on the show. He wrote it out for me. Of course we're pleased to have her. You're one of my favorites. Oh, cool. Thanks.

Harvard, by the way. She went to Harvard. Holy cow. What, like it's hard? Yeah. And her husband. Your husband went to Harvard too, right? Yeah, he did.

We're really obnoxious. This is a woman of substance. Don't invite us to trivia night if you want to win. Uh-oh, Dan. She's throwing down the gauntlet. So, yeah, it looks like we're going to open in Vegas. I'm not sure. It's 90%.

Showcase style or headliner style? Showcase style. I want to send four comics and an emcee out every week. Wow. I want to do it like a seller show. I think it's great. It's ambitious. I like the ambition.

But it needs it. I lived in Vegas for years, and there's no great comedy. There's no good showcase. You guys got to do it. If anyone can pull it off, you can pull it off. I'm just, I've never seen it done like that on the road, the showcase style. Right. Well, this is what it was if you want to know. I do. I did a spreadsheet. It's very expensive. The reason is it's very expensive.

So I To send everybody out. It's super expensive, right? To send everybody out in the hotels, everything. It's all expensive. So I put it on a spreadsheet. And when I was negotiating with the casino, I said, listen, this is what it's going to cost me. This is what I can pay. And they turned me down flat.

And I walked away from the table. And a year later, they called me back and said, okay. Wow. And they cracked. So the casino is going to pay all me back and said, okay. Wow. And they cracked. So the casino's going to pay all those expenses? No, no. The casino's, I have to pay rent. But they brought my rent and my percentage down to a number that I can manage to do what it is that I want to do.

And I'm not going to make a lot of money there. But I think in order to break even, we'll have to have an average of about 100 people per show. I think we can pull that off. I think you can pull it off. 100 people per show. If you don't think you can make a lot of money, then you're just doing it for... You know, that's what I ask myself.

You might be able to make a lot of money. I'll do it for the trip. I might be able to make good money, but I don't know. I've just got to rev the engine of the comedy seller to, to, to as many RPMs as I can get right now. Just,

just to know that I did it. Otherwise, I five years now when it comes back down and be like, well, you know, shit. Now I like it. I want to see,

I know this sounds childish, but I kind of like the idea of like those big signs and Caesar's palace with the, you know, comedy seller. And I don't know. No, I think it's great. And if I flop, I flop. I'm not

gambling with any money that I Now the setup of the room, are they setting it up for you? No, we're building a whole room that's going to look exactly like the comedy cellar. This is part of the other thing. It's going to be brick, exact like, it'll look more probably like the underground than the comedy cellar because it's bigger.

But exactly. And you know, a lot of the walls in the underground, some of them are, they're not fake brick, but they're shaved brick. They're not all outside walls, but you can't tell the difference because it's real brick and real mortar. So we're building it really exactly right. And there's going to be a front bar, which I'm hoping to call the Fat Black Pussycat.

I don't know, but it'll have like a table like that where people can hang out. And I'm hoping that performers and stuff around Vegas will come out to their shows and hang out and try to create a scene. Will there be rooms for Artie to make stains with the waitstaff over there? Yeah. All right. Now, Lee, having lived in Vegas, I mean, you know, the audience typically that comes to the Comedy Cellar is a large percentage of them are tourists. Yeah.

Which is exactly what Vegas is. Oh, yeah. However, they may be tourists of a slightly different quality. So you having lived in Vegas, what is your sense of whether our brand of comedy would translate well over there?

Well, I think so, because the quality, really, I would capture by the word inebriated. So I feel like that probably makes for a good audience, you know? So I think it's going to work. She's all right, huh? She's all right.

And actually, you're right. I had a client once who was a street preacher, and he basically had an equation. He had like an algorithm for figuring out where he could reach the most souls for Jesus. Wow. And he just stood outside on the strip because he's like, sure, they're all tourists, but unlike, say, Disney or Times Square. It's a different type of trip. It's a different tourist every day, and they're all lost. You know, they're all sinners.

So he's like, it's just the maximum amount of Jesusing he could do. And isn't there a lot of East Coasters that go to Las Vegas? Isn't there a lot of New Jersey and New York people that go there for vacation? Yeah, of course. Right, of course. And as far as comics, we'll try to bring some people who are out in LA because it's easier for them. But I think the idea of having five guys out there who are, you know, what's the word of the day? Curated to

be a good hang together. That'll make it a fun gig. No, there's no complaints on the comic side. We're all down. We all want to go. Provided we can negotiate an appropriate fee, obviously. Well, the fee is, the fee that we're looking at is $2,500

for the week. Okay. For the comics? Yeah. That's not exactly what I had in mind. I got that number from you. I thought I said three. I thought I said three thousand. How many shows is that? How many shows? Probably nine spots.

Okay, okay. You need to teach him negotiating tricks. Six nights, I think. Can I book it right now on the show? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if the club is more successful, then maybe that could be more. I don't know. That seems to be what works. But I thought that's about right.

15-minute spots and a trip. Believe me, that's a good deal. Okay, Sean is in. I'm in, yeah. But I must say that there's a certain percentage of comedy seller comics that will not do it for that. Well, as long as they can keep a secret, they're going to make more.

But it's also Vegas. It's Vegas, Danny. I understand that. Not everybody loves Vegas. So you can go double your money at the end of the show. Yeah, exactly. You can make six nights in a casino. That's five.

Unlimited amount of money. Is a long time. Six nights in a casino, you feel like, I mean, it's not Reno, but it's still, you know. Yeah. It's still rough. Reno is rough. Reno is rough.

Reno, you can't walk outside the casino because there's all meth heads. I know. It's like Dawn of the Dead. It would have to send, it's not like Aruba Ray has his gig

and people go because they like the sunshine and the water. It doesn't have quite that appeal. I want to talk about Milo. I think that's you. I think people will do that.

We will. We will. Just one more point. But I do want to say, I just want to say that it's very tough for anybody to negotiate the price down after they've done Aruba. Allo. I think that's you. I think people will do that. We will. Just one more point. But I do want to say, I just want to say that it's very tough for anybody to negotiate the price down after they've done Aruba.

All right? I haven't. Oh, you haven't done Aruba? Okay, go ahead. But the point is, not everybody views Vegas as necessarily a great place to be, but I think this is going to depend also,

as you mentioned, on pairing comics up with people whose company they enjoy. That's a good call. We can go with our friends. Right here, three guys. Pals. It is competitive with what people are getting paid to go out there.

I did a little of the homework. I guess I have to beep out the amount because I probably shouldn't say it on the air. I asked a lot of people about that amount as kind of a rule of thumb, and everybody seemed to think that was... That seems reasonable to me. The trip plus that, to me, seems reasonable. I like Las Vegas, though, a lot, so that's why it might seem like that to me.

The cost of living is so low. I mean, I haven't lived there for years, but when I lived there, I mean, everything was on the cheap. I mean, I guess it's always measured against what you would make if you didn't go. Do you go to Vegas at all, Sam? I've been there once

for my brother-in-law's bachelor party. No, you never performed if you didn't go. Do you go to Vegas at all, Sam? I've been there once for my brother-in-law's bachelor party. I've never performed there. I've performed in Reno twice. Two weeks, I'll never get back. And is this recently? Years ago. So we don't have any, like, we can't compare. I don't really like doing casinos.

I did that AC room that Sean and I both never got paid for. That Atlantic City room. Bob, what's his his name Bob Kephart I still text him all the time just to mess with him do you really why is your phone dead no he responded

the other day for the first time I've been texting this guy for years I'm like Bob you owe me a lot of money and he just doesn't respond I just keep doing stuff like that

and he wrote back he wrote back new phone it's not Bob I'm like you you piece of shit it took him a while to figure that out

it took him a year he learned that out It took him a year He learned that trick A year later It was a rough gig It was a new gig We walked into I walked into the hotel And you should have

Wrote back who dis Who dis Oh that's really funny Rough gig though So listen Lee works for the ACLU American Civil

That's awesome And I just want to say I agree with the ACLU probably 50% of the time. That's a lot. But I'm a big supporter of the ACLU and the reason is I was thinking about it. I'm a supporter of the ACLU for the same reason that

I consider it important that every accused criminal get the best defense. If the government is going to do something to you that involves your rights or your liberty, whatever it is, you want somebody there scrutinizing it and making them earn it.

Amen. And so that's why, so we're doing a fundraiser next week, you know, for the ACLU in the Village Underground. That is awesome. Yeah, and I'm donating the proceeds as well, even though I don't agree with a lot of the ACLU. But I truly think without them, there's nobody.

Well, I feel like how can you agree with them half the time? Because just the idea of the ACLU, I feel like you're either all in or you're not. Like what you just said about there should be somebody to defend people no matter what. No, for instance, we can get into it. He's got an issue to issue. I'm sure that on this travel ban, I will disagree with the ACLU position.

Okay. I'm sure of it. I believe, at least if you want to just take the subset of the people who have never had any legal interaction with the United States of America, people who really basically just have no rights as far as I see it. I can't imagine the President of the United States having to, what are you going to, what do you call it, subpoena CIA agents and depose them and ask them what information they had.

And the President of the United States says, I have information and we can't let these people in. I don't see how anybody can question that. But the ACLU disagrees, I get it. We questioned it, we're right, and federal judges agree with us. You're entitled to that opinion. But it's not only unconstitutional, it's completely ineffective.

It's counterproductive to terrorism goals. Counterproductive is a whole other... Don't stat. This is not my argument. That matters, right? That's what you just said. You want the government to have a good goddamn reason if they're going to restrict your liberties. They restricted your liberties and they basically did it with crayon on a piece of paper.

The thing doesn't do anything meaningful. Hold on, two things. I said I'm distinguishing, and the order didn't do this, but the new one probably will. We'll see. The people who have, once you... Well, it's so critical, by the way.

He said he had to push it back because of a busy news cycle, so obviously we know what the priority is. Well, they're trying to get it right. Once, well, he doesn't want to get humiliated again. Exactly. By get it right, you mean not be humiliated again. If're trying to get it right. Once, once, well, he doesn't want to get humiliated again. Exactly. Get it right.

By get it right, you mean not be humiliated again. If he would have done it right the first time, dotted his I's and crossed his T's, the ACLU wouldn't have gotten involved because they wouldn't

have had no legal standing. Well, she thinks, I believe, that no matter how they do it, they're at least going to put up a fight. Well, it's an uphill battle now that he's made clear,

right, what the underlying purpose and effect is, which is basically a Muslim ban. See, I never took him to that. You go back to the drawing board, but the problem is now we've got a record, and the record is bigotry that keeps nobody safe. So, yeah, we should have scrutiny on that. Let me tell you, since we're into it, this is what I came up with right away, and this is what I think. Let's stipulate that the president is a bigot and hates Muslims.

I accept that. Which I actually go back, I don't think when he said Muslim man, he ever meant anything other than as kind of a shorthand vulgar way of saying fight radical Islam. I don't think he ever meant to ban Indonesians or Malaysians. Why does he always get the benefit of the doubt though?

I feel like that's what Kellyanne Conway just says about him all day. It's like, no, you have to see what's in his heart. That's the way I took it when he said it. But anyway. But why were you assuming everybody should just have to take it like that? Anyway, moving on. I mean, I'll answer, but now I forgot what I was saying. Oh, this is rough.

You guys should have put me on with Rich again. You guys can't agree with me? So, let's stipulate the president doesn't like Muslims. Now he's the president. And his CIA chief says, you know what? We have word there's a lot of infiltration from these following countries and we think it's dangerous to

let them in. But it's classified information. Are we saying that a bigoted president no longer has the obligation or the right to keep us safe? Are we saying that a judge has a right to call on the CIA chief, find out what his classified information is, and then the judge, who is also not vetted, not elected, may not have any experience,

he's going to decide whether this policy is correct based on the classified information? Absolutely. What's the alternative? A blank check? The alternative? For discrimination? The president has always had a plan. Let me ask you this. No, absolutely not true. Let me tell you the alternative. That's the alternative? A blank check? The alternative? For discrimination? The president has always had a blank check.

Let me ask you this. No, absolutely not true. Let me tell you the alternative. That's not true. Right now, forget about immigration. And by the way, you know judges can look at things in secret. It's called in camera. Yeah, but even if... And there is literally a foreign intelligence court that does this all the time.

Well, if it goes to the FISA court or something, then they might have certain rights to look at it, but they still have not been vetted by the American people that their judgment is the judgment that the people would like. They're going to be presented some facts. And then reasonable minds may differ. And there's only one person on the planet Earth that the American people have decided, you know what, it's his judgment we want to decide what course of action when he's presented with facts.

Incorrect. And it can't be some judge. Incorrect. We have three branches of government. The people are saying, okay, some percentage of the people that did not top 50, FYI. There's only one commander-in-chief. Right, but the commander-in-chief is still subject to the Constitution.

And as Madison said, the whole reason we put in constitutional rights is to avoid the tyranny of the majority. So that's exactly how it's supposed to work. No, it's not tyranny of the majority here. You're saying his authority comes from being democratically elected, even though it wasn't the majority. But even assuming it was the majority. So where does the judge's authority come from?

The Constitution. The legislature. The judicial branch. And we the people wrote the Constitution. It's by and for us. So the judge becomes the commander-in-chief? No. Yes.

But that's a check and a balance. And if the commander-in-chief cannot justify exactly how you started the show, if the government cannot justify this kind of discrimination with something other than bigotry, hell yes, the judge represents the people. You're putting a judge as commander-in-chief in that situation. But that's actually how the American system works. In other words, when Barack Obama was droning people, a judge could have decided, wait, I want you to run.

Absolutely, yes, and the ACL to run. Absolutely, yes. And the ACLU filed suits against targeted killing. And I want you to run every drone strike. I want you to run it by the judge before you do it. Let him decide whether or not it's warranted. Now the judge is,

Commander-in-Chief, now the judge is making the decisions to fight the war for us. We have a lot fewer terrorists that hated us if we had done that. But now you're not doing a legal argument. I'm saying... Well, facts matter too. I think it's an untenable position. I think the Supreme Court...

Because if it's going to be... They can do it every single decision that he makes in wartime. They can start deciding whether or not it was warranted. And then the judge becomes elevated over the president and I think that won't work. But alright. This is not wartime. By wartime, I know I'm

sloppy in my language. I mean decisions made to prevent loss of American lives. That's fair, but you could put so much into that category. Don't most studies show that these terrorists are legal citizens that haven't come over here, that are from here, and that were manipulated on the internet? The policy of the Muslim ban? I mean, the travel ban?

I don't think it's a good... I don't think I would want it if I was the president. I don't know. I don't know what he knows. But I'm not here to defend the wisdom of the travel ban. I'm here to say... I thought you were. I'm here to say, no, I'm saying that the president has the right, in my opinion, to get intelligence, that secret, and make decisions. That's what he's always done.

The way it seems to me is that this particular travel ban caused pandemonium in travel. We saw it on the news, and I know the news is biased, whatever you want to call it, but if something came out that was... These are alternative facts you're saying. I don't think people are against a travel ban. I think they just want everything to be done properly and to the point where you don't have citizens or people with green cards getting

stopped and separated from their families in the airport. I think that was the issue. Lee, can I... From a constitutional standpoint, in your opinion, because the Constitution is... all of it really is a matter of opinion. Can be interpreted kind of any which way but loose. Got some asterisks and strikeouts. In your opinion, is any sort of, say, discrimination against Muslims in immigration unconstitutional?

These are people that don't live here. They're not citizens. They're not even residents I'm talking about. I'm not talking about green card people. Totally. And I'm not talking about residents. I'm saying if we said we're going to favor Christians, for example, over Muslims in immigration,

how is that unconstitutional? Whether or not that's wise or nice, how is it unconstitutional? Well, part of that is legal and part of that is philosophical. But my answer is this. Our Constitution, if you read it, Congress shall make no law. Right?

It's about checks on the government. It's not about assigning rights to these people. Girl Scouts get X right. Right? People we like get this right. Citizens get this right. It's about holding the American government in check so it doesn't run rampant and engage in constitutional violations. But what is the constitutional violation of somebody that's not on U.S. soil, that doesn't live here and is not a resident, of saying we're going to favor, say, Christians or say whatever?

Are there non-citizens you're saying? What is the clause in the Constitution? Can I say one thing? Can I say one thing? I think Girl Scouts should get special treatment. Those cookies? God damn. What happened got to the bottom of my question.

I want to amplify Dan's question. Yeah, sure. Because I think you jump from two different positions, and I want to try to limit you to one, with your permission, which is you simultaneously say what you think the law ought to be. Right. You know that's my job. I'm an advocate.

Right. But I think that we also, and that's, we want to know that. We also want to know what is the law as has been decided up until now. Right, you want me to be a neutral legal expert without the passion that I believe in. I want you to inform us about it. Listen, this is what the court said. For the record, that's not why I work for the ACLU, but I will do it. I think the court was wrong here, but the court, I have to admit, Norm, the court has said kind of what you said.

However, I think that's wrong, and if they overturn it, this would be the argument. As a practical legal matter, that's generally been an uphill battle. And usually when courts are faced with a question about non-citizen rights, the approach by most civil liberties lawyers in America has been to

focus on the impacts on Americans' rights. So there are things called ideological exclusion, like we won't let a scholar from Iran come in. Those have been banned or struck down by courts because they impact the ability of Americans to hear that speech, and we have a First Amendment right. Similarly, they're doing this thing now like forensic searches of devices at the border, right?

Let's say you haven't left the port of entry. You're not on U.S. soil. You've still got a phone. They do a forensic search. How many contacts with Americans is that going to reveal? Our world is really global, and I think being so cramped about constitutional rights doesn't actually benefit us. But my question was, though, just as an academic,

constitutional matter. And I answered it. And I answered it. Where in the Constitution? Do you feel it's a violation of what exactly in the Constitution? Equal protection. I answered that. I'm sorry if you didn't hear.

Equal protection of people that don't live here? Yes, because I'm concerned about our government. That's what being a civil libertarian means. It means I demand that our government obey certain values and constitutional norms, and I don't care whether that person is a citizen. Right now, if somebody went out on the street waving a sign, and they arrested him, and he wasn't a citizen, you think, oh, nothing to see here.

I'm not talking about someone who's not a citizen. I'm talking about someone that doesn't even live here. He's not even on our soil. So you already agree that the Constitution applies to non-citizens. We're now just talking about the tiny question of when they're physically in a port of entry, is it okay for our U.S. government to act against our constitutional values? How about they're physically not even in a port of entry? They're often around applying however they apply to become a citizen.

Well, that violates human rights norms, you know, droning little children across the world. I'm not talking about droning. I'm talking about what if we say they apply for a visa online. They apply for a visa. We are from a certain place. And because you're Muslim, we're going to give you a lower priority. Yeah. Now, why is that

unconstitutional? Again, I would say that the focus of the equal protection clause is on the government's actions. It doesn't say, P.S. This only applies to citizens. My job at the ACLU, not mine, my colleagues who are brilliant and work on immigrants' rights, is to encourage the courts to adopt that view. But we don only applies to citizens. My job at the ACLU, not mine, my colleagues who are brilliant and work on immigrants' rights, is to encourage the courts to adopt that view. But we don't treat everybody equally because we do have priorities for certain places, do we not?

Sure, but a priority from a certain place is not the same as violating equal protection based on race or religion. Let's wrap it up. What if we discriminated against people we identify as radical Islamists? Radical Muslims? Well, I think if there was a legitimate national security concern, that would be a different thing. And that's really all we've asked. Show us something other than racism. Racism doesn't keep us safe. Can you imagine a situation where now it's President Obama or somebody like him as president in four years from now,

and now some conservative Republican appointee wants everything to be run by him, and then the partisan, and partisanship becomes a, and now an element in what the president, the commander-in-chief can and can't do in terms of keeping us safe. I think it's untenable. I think that once you, once you have a world where the president of the United States, as he always has been able to do, can decide what, you know what, bomb that tent over there, and he essentially can take life. It's an awesome power the president of the United States has, but I'd rather the president have it, who is accountable politically, than some judge who we know nothing about, has no expertise, is not accountable, can't be voted out of office.

He should not be the one ever deciding what the president of the United States can do to keep the United States safe. That's how I feel about it. But those checks and balances have always been there. Wait, unless, no, that has never been there. Unless it's in the most extreme case where essentially he can't even present, kind of like the summary judgment case, he can't even present a plausible rationale for what he's doing. It's just clear that no person could be doing this for any other reason than racism. That's what accountability looks like.

And by the way, it only works democratically to have accountability if people know what is going on and what the thing does. And that's part of what we do. What's the expression? Bad law, bad cases make bad law. Bad facts make bad law. That's what Trump is. Trump is literally the bad facts that are going to make bad law that are going to saddle us with

a kind of oversight. But in all fairness, when I'm thinking about that, I'm also thinking about the next liberal president who's only going to let in Muslims. Milo. Let's talk about Milo. Can I have one quick question? Now, putting aside the Constitution, just as a moral matter, what do you think of Japan? Are they evil, awful racists? Because they don't let, if you

ain't Japanese, you ain't getting in. That's not America. If you ain't Muslim, you ain't getting in. And if you are Muslim. Obviously, same with Israel. Citizenship is based on... Don't turn this this way. My question to you is... Sorry, was that news to anybody?

No, no, no. This goes about Israel. It ain't stopping anytime soon. I'm glad I live in the United States. Are you outraged at these horrible racists, and would you go to Japan or boycott them and not go? I'd go anywhere, man. I think knowledge is good. And Noah and I would go, too, because we're both Jewish boys.

We're talking about Japan now. Hey, look, I'm a First Amendment advocate. Horrific racists. I'm a free speech advocate, and I think our way of life is best. I really am a patriot. I love the Constitution. I literally do it for a job. Follow-up question. How would you feel if in a hundred years... But it'd be dumb to have...

That was your final question. Yeah, it would be dumb to have a hubris to say, I'm not going to investigate other ways of life. We have plenty of time. In a hundred years, you're still alive by some miracle of science. In a hundred years, it's Christmas time. It's just your head. It's December 20th.

It's Heathen Fest, or whatever we call it then. It's Christmas time, and due to a demographic shift in America, when you turn on the radio, instead of hearing Christmas songs, you hear Ahalawala Hayalawa Hayalawa That was super PC.

Ahalawala Do you think that's a That was super PC. Fa la la la la la la. Do you think that's better or worse or neutral? Neutral, because I'm an atheist. I don't give a shit what other people believe. You don't like Do You Hear What I Hear? I just heard what you said. That's one of the worst possible Christmas songs you could have picked in that moment.

That's actually the best Christmas song. I'm a Jew. I like the Christmas song. Except for Stevie Nicks' version of Silent Night, which if you haven't heard, don't do it now, but at Christmastime. I will ask you this. Would you like to do away with the National Christmas Tree? No.

No? As long as there are other options for people of other faiths. There are no other. That's bold. Now I'm shocked at you. That's not bold. They totally have a menorah and other stuff. It's kind of like the same thing as that Ten Commandments thing on the front State House steps or whatever that was.

Yeah, and we did challenge that. And we lost at the Supreme Court. We should have won. Everybody knows the lit menorah is just bullshit pretext placating of the Jews. Everybody knows it's all about the Christmas tree. I know. Really? You really believe that?

I should be outraged, but those twinkling lights are so pretty. Well, you know what? I agree with you. And as a Jew, let them have their fucking Christmas tree. I know. Really? You really believe that? I should be outraged but those twinkling lights are so pretty. Well, you know what? I agree with you and as a Jew, let them have their fucking Christmas tree. Like, I don't, at some point,

you have to draw lines. Enough celebrating, too. How much do we need? The honest truth is, Christmas is a Roman tradition. Okay? It's completely heathen. Somebody stapled Christ to it,

fine, but a Christmas tree is a pagan object. It is a pagan object. No, no. Not in my home, it's not. But a Christmas tree is a pagan object. It is a pagan object. Not in my home it's not. A Christmas tree in our home is Christian. Even when people say happy holidays to you instead of Merry Christmas,

it does feel like after a show when someone comes up to you and they were like, we liked you too. It feels a little insincere. I'm shocked. I'm sure you'd be against a national Christmas tree. That's like an easy case. You're okay with the National Christmas Tree,

but you're against the President of the United States having a commander-in-chief. That's amazing to me. Anyway, what about Milo? I'm pro-liberty. As long as other people get to express religion and it's not a state endorsement of Jesus, I'm cool with that.

But you understand better than anybody how government will use a pretext and pretend. Jews, in case you don't know this, they don't light menorahs and put them in the town square with light. That's not, that's just taking a Christmas tree, attaching what a Christmas tree is

and turning it into a Jewish object and saying, oh, there you got your menorah, now let's go. And then the president goes and lights the national Christmas tree. I know. And Christmas is a national holiday

and the post office is closed and I think it's fine, but I'm surprised that you think it's fine. I totally get it. And a cross I feel different about. But the Christmas tree, as I said, that's a big interruption. It's hard for me to get to work done. And I'm saying that only half kidding

because I'm saying to a Jewish person the feeling of a Christmas tree is the same as the cross and that's what matters. Not to me. No, what matters to me is that there is diversity and look, even if you think it's bullshit, that menorah shows something, which is the government isn't only in lockstep

with Jesus. You're worried about establishment of religion. You want people who live in the country to not feel they're living in a country where another religion

has been established. That's exactly right. They don't know the fucking 3,000-year-old history of pagan. They see a Christmas tree, they say, that's the Christians.

I'm just mad Kwanzaa doesn't have an object. They have a smaller menorah, don't they? Is that what it is? I don't know. Didn't Sandra Lee have like a corn nut cake that made people vomit online or something?

Milo. Are you guys aware of Milo? Sure. I am, yes. I follow them. By all means. What's your opinion of Milo, Sam? You mean Bill Hader from Saturday Night Live?

He's not my type of guy. Again, I'm a free speech guy, but I don't feel bad that he lost his book deal, really, you know, I don't really care. I mean, it's like,

that's not a free speech thing to me. It's that he was being, Simon and Schuster should never have paid him that much money, I don't think. I think he's, I'm hard with this

because to me, I don't find him witty or funny. I think he, every few ideas he says, there's one that I'm like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I don't,

I think fine, give him, give him outlets. I don't give a shit about that. I think, you know he says, there's one that I'm like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I think, fine, give him outlets. I don't give a shit about that. I think, you know, shut him down if you disagree with him. I'm not opposed to that, but I'm not impressed by him in any way. If I hear the word provocateur one more time, I'm going to lose my mind. I think it comes off like the Perez Hilton of politics. A little bit, yeah. Even dumber and more annoying, I would say, in all fairness to Perez Hilton. That was being pretty nice.

That was my nicest version. I really do not care for him. What did you think about the child sex thing? Could you give me a recap on that? I'm ashamed to pay attention. Okay, so to be clear, when I defended Milo, which of course has put me in a maelstrom of liberal social media hatred after I did that.

They're not doing your job. They're not liberals your job not liberals to be totally clear and this is really important milo has never been at the receiving end of government censorship okay i just that is absolutely important to say the only reason i stood up for milo kind of in the abstract is because he was invited to give a speech at berkeley right and a bunch of students in berkeley worked to make it happen in the face of like a lot of resistance from students and faculty they didn't want him him there. That's a state school, Berkeley. That's a state school.

I've lost college gigs for less than this, by the way. Exactly. Call me, by the way, next time it happens from a state school. But seriously, he was invited by the college Republicans. It's not like you, Berkeley, wanted him there. But a student group invited him. And I think revoking that invitation is a First Amendment problem. Berkeley did the right thing.

From a First Amendment point of view, so far, so good. And then a bunch of students came out and protested him. Again, you're exactly right. So far, so good. Dude doesn't have a right to that forum, right? And they have every right to say our school shouldn't be used as a platform for hateful assholes, which Milo most certainly is. Yeah, agreed.

So everything, so far, so good. Everybody's exactly how the First Amendment wants them to be. But then during the actual kind of lead up to the event as they're prepping and he's on campus getting ready to go on stage, some, I don't even know what to call them, I don't know that they were students. It's not clear exactly who they were, but some individuals decided to kind of engage in some property damage and like mild riots and trash fires. Nile students, correct? Wasn't it non-students?

I'm actually just not sure. I've certainly heard that, but I don't want to be. I've heard that as well. I don't know. I just don't want to be passing on fake news. But what did he say about the sex with kids? Oh, so anyway. He was on like an internet live video cast.

His thing got canceled. And that is a problem. That's what we call a heckler's veto, right? The government didn't censor him, but he had a right to be there. It's like if somebody pulled up a truck in front of the comedy seller and prevented you guys from going on stage. That may not be a First Amendment violation, but that's a free speech problem. And that's what I would say.

The judge telling the president he can't bomb. And that's all I said about Milo. He gets no more love from me than that. I'd be psyched if the First Amendment meant that everybody realizes his ideas suck and are wrong. And that's, I think, what's happened. So what happened was he then got a little bit of a platform. Because now, rather than his dumbass ideas, he gets to trade on being a victim of liberal hatred of free speech. So he gets on Bill Maher as a consequence of

the kind of trash fire shutdown. And he goes on Bill Maher, and he's an idiot. But I think that took him to the kind of next level of visibility. He was so annoying. I don't find him to be charming or witty at all. He's the mental capacity of a 13-year-old.

Not one of his sentences was convinced. Well, you know what, unfortunately, I don't think helped on Bill Maher is when guys like Larry Wilmore, who I like,

but when he's saying stuff like, you can go fuck yourself and the crowd, they're just sheep. Go wild. I know. It's nothing. It's not substance.

And then they hail him as a hero. I say most comics I know would have told that guy to F off on the show. What should he say about children? Okay, so, he goes on the show. Counselor will answer the question.

He says nothing on Bill Maher about kids, but I think what happened was that fame triggered people doing a deep dive into other stuff he'd said. And so people then released tapes of him making jokes about pedophilia. Which I did on Conan two months ago, and Adam did as well on Conan. It wasn't jokes.

Oh, he did kind of make a joke. He did, because he said he gave the best head because of Father Somebody. But it wasn't pedophilia. I'm surprised at you because you've made decisions before. He was already post-pubescent. Yes, there's another word for it. Yeah, I think when you're at the point where... And that's a very important distinction. Oh, really?

I think when you are in the position morally of drawing lines between pederasty and pedophilia, you've already lost the moral. That's why my Catholic mother who did that during the priest thing, she goes, oh, it's not pedophilia. It's called this. He had a pube. It was fine. First of all, I shouldn't have to convince

you on the objective respect for just being accurate. To describe pedophilia, which is a condition of someone who's attracted to prepubescent children to something which is more like Roman Polanski is accused of, or many

people are being attracted to a sexually mature young person, which also should be... Look, the age of consent in Puerto Rico... This is a weird stance to take. I was going to say, you'd be great in ancient Greece. Hold on. the age of consent in Puerto Rico. This is a weird stance to take. I was going to say, you'd be great in ancient Greece. Hold on. The age of consent in Puerto Rico is 14. Hey, vacation.

Who's that? That's what you should know about the comedy show. That is the United States. See, Milo, that's how you do a pedophilia joke. Come on. That is the United States of America, and nobody has ever, and I haven't heard any outrage about it. I don't have anybody trying to change it or say that it's unconstitutional.

I didn't know that. Yeah, 14. And there's states. Whole cultures have always, for thousands of years, distinguished between marrying a 13-year-old, a 14-year-old, and pedophiles who were always considered evil. But don't you think it's hilarious that... If you want to say that Milo is evil for what he said,

I'm all for going down that road. But don't call it pedophilia because that's not accurate. Okay, but two things. First off, if the joke were better, I don't think he would have gotten in that much trouble. You're right. It's not a good joke. And that's my point about Milo.

He's not funny. Seriously, if you're funny, I opened my Conan set with with, it got an applause break. It's a pedophilia joke. It's a good joke. Learn how to tell a pedophilia joke. It's a long joke. I don't have to go into it, but it's... Is it out there? He'll cut it in, because he can get

Yeah, it's the second joke I told on Conan last December. So you didn't open it? I didn't open it. But it was part of the first bit. It was part of the first bit. It was part of the first bit. Part of the first bit. Okay, okay. So here's the thing.

That's part one. Also, I forgot my trade. I lost my trade, though. I'll be back with this. I'll be back with this. You got me fired up with the question in the set order. And this is what I find ironic. First of all, I have to admit this.

This is true. And this is part of it. Oh, no, I got it. Go ahead. Okay, first off, it's ridiculous to me that Simon & Schuster, you could just tell they wanted out of this contract so badly that it's like, you were cool with all the other shit he was saying, and then

this thing, this is what lost the deal. And that is the exact point I would make, that this is not about free speech. It's about the people who supported him being just fine with hatred of transgender people, with disgusting homophobia, and with disgusting misogynist. But, oh, you made a pedophilia joke? A bridge too far.

I'll make a great comparison to this. Free speech, my ass. I got asked to do a festival in Houston next month, and one of the heads of the festival said something transphobic. And my agent said to me, do you still want to do the festival? And I was like, how bad was it? And I saw it, and I didn't think it was that bad, what he said. I thought it was tasteless, but he apologized. And I was like, you know what?

I got another gig really close to that gig. Let's just make it work. So I already kind of wanted to do the gig. That's my point. Some of the producers wanted to drop him. They wanted out. Yeah, they wanted out. They were looking for a reason.

That's often the case when you're in a business thing that you need a reason. Probably contractually, you probably have to have a basis, a legal basis to even end it. Maybe, but CPAC didn't. The Conservative Political Action Conference had him slated as their lead speaker. They thought it was super cute that his reputation was hating on trans people and gays and women. Right. And until, God forbid, he made a joke about pedophilia.

Right. And all of a sudden that got nuclear. So all I'm saying is, sure, I defended Milo's free speech and I did so, I think, principally because what happened at Berkeley was fucked up and unacceptable. Yeah. But to suggest that the censorship of Milo, you know, that any reduction of his book deal, that the loss of the CPAC speaker was censorship in some way. Does not pass the laugh test. It's about values and the people who are supporting him hate women. They hate gays and they hate trans people. But oops, pedophilia doesn't look good on a reelection. How do they hate gays when his whole shtick is that he's gay?

Have you ever listened to him? Yes, I listen to him talk about how he sucks black cock. Yeah, and he also says he doesn't hire gay people because they're late and they're always on drugs. That's homophobia. Even if he's gay, you don't get an exemption card. I can be racist against white people. I can be a sexist. If you're of that group, you can rib that.

I don't think he literally doesn't hire gay people. I think he was making a joke about gay people. Every single member of his sad little entourage is a straight white dude from a 4chan thread. Every single one of them. From a what? It's like a worse Reddit. Sorry. Oh.

I have to be honest with you. When I hear him say those things, I always feel that between the eyes, there's a wink and a twinkle, and he's really making a point more than... Same thing with Trump, he said, though. Well, you know what? People... And I say that about some comedians, too. I mean, he's...

I just want to know, is there anybody who's not a white guy you'd give that benefit of the doubt to? Absolutely. And you know what? People, and I say that about some comedians, too. I mean, he's... I just want to know, is there anybody who's not a white guy you'd give that benefit of the doubt to? Absolutely. And you know what? That's not a nice thing to say. It's not, but it's pretty common that in society, those are the guys who get the best. I have grown up as a heterosexual, I'd say, with more knowledge and inside everyday experience with homosexuality my whole life there's nothing about, listen let me make the devil's ad, first of all

I've known, I'm sorry to say, I've known gay guys who've told me about similar relationships they've had with older men when they were first coming into age sexually, and they had a similar take on it to Milo, I can't help but say that when he said that, I said, you know, that reminds me of someone else said a very similar thing.

That it made them feel better about themselves. You should start hosting some NAMBLA meetings at the cellar. So, but no, now, you're making fun of me. That's too nasty comments from a woman who on the last time she was here said that possession of child pornography should be legal. Because it's good for the... Mere possession? Yeah. That's not true.

It reduces crime against children. That's statistically proven. The courts disagree with me. Hold on. children that's statistically proven the courts disagree with me and then I remember if you look at the gay pride parade and this is Dub's joke and I do

don't look too long you might become one how outrageous is it over the line is it for somebody to see that parade which is an expression that they give about community, and then say that that community is any of those things. You see, you know, it's as

if the Jewish, the Israeli Day parade or something was all, like, dollar signs and banks and whatever. How can you say Jews care about money? How can you say they're into, well, did you see the parade? And that's, you know, you see the gay parade, it's all dicks and it's a weekend of drugs and late nights and alcohol.

And this is the community that Milo is coming out of. It's a community that I've, I know this community. I also know the community of totally everyday gay people who go to work every day, whatever it is. But to pretend that that community that he's kind of making fun of, making reference to doesn't exist, I think is political correctness. And he's kind of making fun of, making reference to, doesn't exist, I think is political correctness.

And he's referring to that aspect of the gay community. Okay, fair enough, but that aspect exists in the straight community, too. I don't think I'm being politically correct. He just doesn't get a pass because he bleached his hair and wears pearls. And I'm saying that when we exaggerate him to mean more than that, I mean us sophisticated people exaggerate him more than that, I think we're guilty of kind of hanging. And let me make the final point, was that do the same people who are hanging Milo,

what percentage of these liberals who hate Milo do you think are not saying Roman Polanski should come back? Meryl Streep giving Roman Polanski a standing ovation. Everybody loves Roman Polanski, who actually was the banger of the 13-year-old. Can I make one? Not the 13-year-old. He's the 13-year-old who makes a joke about being abused. Can I defend that in one way when people do that to you?

And normally, when somebody who's abused is kind of representing a Stockholm Syndrome, liberals will be like, well, he says that, but you know, you should feel sorry

because he's damaged by this abuse. That's why he's saying this. So this is just proof. No, with Milo, no, he was the one who was abused. He's making a joke.

We see no sympathy for him, but Roman Polanski, who actually fucked the 13-year-old. No, with Milo, no. He was the one who was abused. He's making a joke. We see no sympathy for him, but Roman Polanski who actually fucked a 13-year-old. No, he's a hero in the liberal community, and that fucking rank hypocrisy is why I get mad, and that's why I want to defend this guy. And you should be mad. It's disgusting. How are you comparing people?

Okay, first off, Milo never directed a movie like Chinatown. That's right. He never put something great out there. And here's another thing. People who are famous always get a pass. Michael Jackson? I'm not saying it's right, but how could you be? He shouldn't have gotten a pass.

He shouldn't have gotten a pass, but I'm saying Roman Polanski. You're comparing a guy who writes for Breitbart to one of the greatest filmmakers ever. You're pointing how the world works, and of course you're right. But I'm saying what I don't want. Do I think Roman Polanski's a rotten person? I think Woody Allen's probably a rotten person. I don't want to jump on that bandwagon. I don't want to jump on that bandwagon.

A, because I feel like the way he's saying things, I don't want to use the P word, but the way he's saying things, the more you kind of, you understand what he's doing. I don't like the way he says it, but the other point I made, that he's actually the victim here.

And liberals, I've never heard them not go out of their way to explain away something that a victim did. No, and this is the one victim, a 13-year-old who was molested, who is now a bastard because he somehow didn't see this as a negative thing. It wasn't liberals at all. That's the whole point. The liberals were pissed about the transphobia and the potential that might have been an untrue rumor that he was going to out undocumented students at Berkeley. That's what they were pissed about. It was the conservatives. It was the conservatives. Yes, because I stand...

You're right. I agree with you. Of course I care. We should be outraged about hypocrisy. I'm literally a civil libertarian because I want consistency. I don't care if you're a liberal or conservative or a Girl Scout or Milo. You get those rights. But here, there wasn't some grand liberal conspiracy.

This was the Republicans pretending at CPAC that they liked free speech and Milo was the vehicle for it until he made a joke. And we have to be very clear. I have a 13 year old. I mean, I have a five year old daughter who will be 13. And I do not in any way think it's okay for any grown man to have sex with her. Don't, don't, you, you, I hope somebody could take it that way. But I am struck by the fact that Puerto Rico is 14 and that seems to be perfectly fine. And believe me, if somebody comes after the Puerto Ricans, now you're going to have an issue because now you're, now you're going to come after a favored group and you're going to start criticizing their culture.

And if it's outrageous, it seems like it should not be allowed to be 14, right? There's certain things that happen in different places in here that are okay. Are we just going to adopt how tie lines run things? When in Rome. Can we at least give Milo credit

for what I think is a wonderful character. Now, Sam doesn't think he's very funny. Bruno? He may not be. He's like Bruno. But he really staked out a niche, which is something as a comedian we should all appreciate,

is that the gay guy, that's an outrageous gay guy who talks about sucking black cock, but is also kind of wearing pearls. But otherwise, the politics of like a Midwestern 60-something white guy, right? I mean, it's amazing. I mean, you know, if you were to pitch that

in Hollywood, they would say, hey, you might be onto something. This is an interesting character and that's certainly why he's become so famous. Also, he happens to be

a very good-looking guy, I think. Does anybody have any comments? He doesn't do it for me personally. I think he's... He's a very handsome guy with the pearls and the crazy outfits. With these politics, can we at least give the man credit for branding?

For capitalizing on a brand, sure. For a whale of a branding. He may not even have these real thoughts. He may have just been like, you know, I want to become famous. How can I do it? Yeah, but do you respect that? Do we respect reality TV stars who are just trying to brand themselves? I'm just saying, is he or is he not a good brander?

He's a good brander. All right, there you go. That's a point. I fell apart pretty quick. I think we just gave him his 16th minute, but guys, it's mostly up. What I really despise about him is the cruelty, like the stuff about Leslie Jones. Yeah, it's unforgivable. I hate that.

Not that he's exactly unique. I mean, I remember, you see, that seems to be the way Twitter is, you know? Yeah, but he was gleeful about it. But it's just disgusting. It's people who worked here. It's not funny and it's hurtful. It's truly hurtful to people. And he also said shit about Amy.

And it's like, Amy's making positive shit. She's putting good stuff out there. She's making good movies. You know what I mean? This is a guy who's basically a professional troll. What did he say about Amy that was so bad? He just said she's not funny. He's a right to that opinion.

He's a right to that opinion, but I'm just saying. That's not outrageous. That's not outrageous, but my point is that he's a troll. That is what he is. Yeah, of course. He's a YouTube commenter that picked up a character. That's the way the business is going. I wish I'd come up with a gimmick like that. Would you be happy?

He doesn't seem happy. I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't be happy. It is really interesting. I've got to figure out a shtick. The one thing he does do in some ways is kind of forces us in person to realize what the internet would look like if we all talked to each other in the real world as people talked on Reddit comment threads.

And philosophically, I find that an interesting thought experiment, but I'm not going to give him credit because I think he's just an asshole who was like, oh, I can adopt the same retrograde ideas about hating women and sexual minorities. It's just that if I bleach my hair, it's cute. I wish writing

brilliant jokes and telling them wonderfully was enough to get you famous, but I've proven that it's not. You make a good point, though. I gotta fucking figure something out, and Milo, he figured it out. He does make me feel better picturing that that's what

YouTube commenters look like, though. When someone calls me a retarded Michael Phelps, and I'm like, pearls. That does help, for sure. I wish that in an age where we're supposedly coming me like a retarded Michael Phelps and I'm like, pearls. That does help, for sure. I mean, I wish that in an age where we're supposedly coming to be very sensitive to bullying, I think it's all bullshit

because there's people basking in bullying right now and they just do it online and I wish it wasn't socially acceptable. It really bothers me that people are so free and just being hurtful. I know I sound corny, but it truly is hurtful to people. I agree with that.

It doesn't feel good. It definitely ruins my mood. I got a Google alert the other day. People were just saying they didn't like me on a radio show and they're like, he needs to kill himself one after another.

And for a couple minutes, you're like, yeah, that fucking feels bad. But then it washes away. The comics created this in a sense. I get so much of it. It's like the roasts are all about this, so you can't blame people for then adopting that brand of humor.

But again, the roasts are like, you know, they're vetted jokes. It's in one space. They're well-written. And what they did to Ann Coulter was a bit much. Yeah, it was horrible. But, you know, I mean, at least that's one night. You sign up for it. You agree to be there.

There's consent to it. Everybody wants to get in the act. You agree to be on Twitter, I guess. You agree to be there. There's consent to it. Everybody wants to get in the act. You agree to be on Twitter, I guess. You agree to be on the social media. But people write shit. And it's like sometimes you can't even tell they're being funny. One guy just wrote something like, kill yourself. And I was like, blah.

And I saw what he said. He goes, oh, my God, he responded to me or something like that. But he was happy. He loves me. I like to just go on and love all my heart, whatever you call it, like or love all my mean tweets about me. It just throws people for a loop. They think I'm so unhinged. They just stop immediately.

But mostly it's because I'm actually cackling. I'm like, yeah, you deserve that. It feels like this whole notion of kill yourself is a relatively recent phenomenon. I don't recall it from the 70s and 80s. But I hear that a lot. I see that a lot. Kill yourself. Yeah, kill yourself.

Delete your account. Well, delete your account is obviously not quite as extreme. What about this week? Was it Krillstein? Jamie Kilstein? I knew him many years ago. I knew him quite well. Can you tell the story?

I don't think there's much of a story. There's not a story. He was fired from his podcast with his wife. There's not really a story. Well, it's all over Facebook. It's got to be something. It's all over your feed. It's all over our feed.

I don't think it's a big story. Happy birthday was all over Facebook. It's got to be something. Well, yeah, it's all over your feed. It's all over our feed. I don't think it's a big story. Happy birthday was all over my feed once. No, this is, in the community of comedy, this is kind of the headline today. I mean, he's a guy who's an annoying comic. We all disliked him. I remember he came after me hard doing that joke thing. Oh, was he the one? He was one of the many.

I mean, there were many. I don't even want to go down that road, but he was a guy who's- The one you told the rape joke, you mean? Yeah, and he, of course, went at me hard. And he's one of those guys who wears shirts that say feminist or vegan. He's very hardcore. To the point where he's like the left Milo almost. But it's too much.

And he's very smug and full of himself. And the whole thing was... He kind of started with Some Promise early on as a comic, but he became this just pandering, smug, annoying... Must have been getting a lot of pussy that way. One wife, but yeah, I guess all these other women, who knows? I don't know the whole story. She wrote a post. He was fired because it's a very ambiguous... He was fired from Citizenship Radio or whatever it's called because

apparently a couple of women complained that he was manipulative and predatory which we don't know what that means. We don't know what he did or what that even means. Those are lovely adjectives. But of course there's a lot of people. A couple said abusive and I'm like okay but we don't know what that is. We still don't know what that is

and however because Nothing like ruining someone's career with vague comments. Manipulative and predatory. That describes every guy trying to get laid. Really? Since he's one of those guys that walked around with a t-shirt that said feminist, people are finding this obviously very amusing and taking great delight in it. Well, he's the left version of one of those Republican senators.

Who gets caught with a wide stance or lifting luggage. There's a list. Footseats under the stall. Hypocrites and fundamentalists suck. Amongst men. Hypocrites really do suck. That's why comics, I mean, obviously, no one I would hope would be trying to

exploit victims in any way if people were harmed by this guy. That's terrible, but I think comics are enjoying hypocrisy.. Well, look, we exploit Hitler. We love Hitler. Look at how many people he harmed. How many movies, TV shows, books, the entertainment this man has given us. Hitler did more than predatory behavior. But the point

is... He was manipulative, too. He was manipulative. The point is, is we're more than happy to make Hitler jokes and revel in all the entertainment that this man has given us over the years. From The Dirty Dozen to... Hogan's Heroes. Hogan's Heroes.

The Great Dictator. Anyway, so I just because... The Zero of Steel movie. Mel Brooks. The producers. Just because there's victims involved doesn't mean people shouldn't get some joy out of it. But that's your job as comedians, right?

You actually can go to those dark places that other people can't get some joy out of it. But that's your job as comedians, right? You actually can go to those dark places that other people can't to reveal fucked up truths about the human condition. I don't really reveal a lot of fucked up truths. I talk about go to the end of the block and turn gay. Fair enough. But I'm saying that's,

I mean, it really kind of ties together everything we've been talking about. And that's what's so interesting about the discretion about Milo. If he was better at it, right? If he was a comedian. He's an open munker. Yeah, if he was revealing truths about people, that would be different.

But he's not. He's just a bigot with a platform. His 15 minutes are up, and thank God. Well, I think he's revealed some. There's been some truths revealed. Oh, I think so. I think the bit about I don't hire gays, they show up late was an interesting point, but it wasn't well delivered.

No, it's not funny. And could have used a better punchline. Yeah. We're playing behind the I'm sassy, I'll say it. That well delivered. No, it's not funny. And could have used a better punchline. Yeah. We're playing behind the I'm sassy, I'll say it. That's like a type of comedy to some people. Like, I said it. Where you're like, okay, but there's no structure to that joke.

There's nothing there. Okay. Now, Noam, what about your experience with gay employees? Oh. Go ahead, Dan. Ask me anything. I'm sure I'll answer honestly.

Go ahead. Do they show up late because of partying? No. In general, no. In general, Dan. Ask me anything. I'm sure I'll answer honestly. Go ahead. Do they show up late because of partying? No. In general, no. In general, no. But, but, I can remember. Now, you know, it's changed over the years. I remember in the 90s.

I know they were like Eric Adams and Mark Gold. Can I just go to the bathroom right now? Because I just don't want any audible reaction to this segment. I'm going to say their names. And Gerald, who's still, you can tell by his name. Eric Adams and Ben and John and all the gay waiters he worked with, they used to fucking party harder than any people I'd ever seen. They were coked up and they would work 48 hours in a row and then they would not show up to shifts the next day.

I mean, it was that time. There's been movies made about this. This is a subculture within a community that really existed. Why do you think that... I mean... I just don't think it's because they're gay. I think it's because they're hot and childless and they live in New York City.

Have fun, boys. I'm not saying it's because they're gay, but I'm saying this was a part of, this was going on. This was hot. It was a time of coke and partying and whatever it is. And that's kind of what it sounded like that Milo was referring to me. And he's doing it from the, usually what's the protective coating of being within that community. Like normally when you hear a black guy saying shit about black guys, whatever it is,

people say, oh, he's black, he can say that. Oh, no, not so fast, Milo. You don't get that community. Like normally when you hear a black guy saying shit about black guys, whatever it is, people say, oh, he's black, he can say that. Oh, no, not so fast, Milo. You don't get that pass. And he probably thought he had that pass to kind of tease. Or Jews.

Listen, you know how many times I'll have a conversation about money with some Jewish friend of mine, he'll be like, don't be such a Jew. That's fair. But Milo's not a woman

and he's not trans and those are the two primary targets, right? And we know Jews talk like that. And Leslie Jones, it was race. Like, okay, you can pick out those two things, but don't pretend he's talk like that. And Leslie Jones, it was race. Okay, you can pick out those two things, but don't pretend he's not a bigoted prick.

No, I'm not. Not for a minute. I'm not that familiar with him. But that's not to say that people don't get offended. I make jokes about Jews. I did a synagogue a couple weeks ago, and they groaned at almost all of them. People get offended.

Listen, this is what I think, and I think we're all going to agree to this. I'm a Jew. That doesn't vindicate you in every setting. I think that it's very much psychologically our reflexive... Well, because you didn't make fun of the right things. Maybe I did. Maybe my jokes weren't strong enough. Our reflexive reaction...

You're not right for a synagogue. Our reflexive reaction to these things is quite often, who's ox's gourd? And I think that we should all agree that it's important to try to encourage a societal mori, whatever it is, of not jumping down people so quickly when they say something, even if you find it offensive. We need more room for people to have something come out the wrong way, to say something that's offensive, because it becomes back and forth

shutting down. Because you can draw a line anywhere and say I find it offensive. And I just think that even though I don't agree with what Milo's saying, he might listen, Mel Gibson is back in the limelight now, whatever it is, after he said his thing about Jews. And I'm like, good.

Good, I'm glad. Don't not end whatever it is, after he said this thing about Jews. And I'm like, good. Good, I'm glad. Like, don't not end this guy's career because he said something about Jews. Give him that fucking latitude. I can handle it. I just think that's a better way to live. You're compassionate and I'm not going to comment about Mel, but I'll agree about Milo. Sunlight's the best disinfectant. I'm not afraid of ideas. If you've got shitty

ideas, say them. I'm not afraid of it. I'll respond with better ideas. Make him defend them. It doesn't always work. You know, it's kind of an ideal, but a lot of the time it doesn't. I think Milo's actually a success story. I really do. People heard enough of his ideas and they're bored and they're over it. I would like to have Milo on

this show to confront him, have you on with me and confront him on his ideas. Hold on. He's not worth that much attention. But listen, I can't do it. I risk my career. I risk my business. I risk my family. I risk everything if I just want to

say, let's have this guy in and let me debate him. Does anyone know this gentleman at the end of the table? I've met him. He's my husband. That's what bothers me so much. I think I told you when we were doing these debates, let's do a debate about Holocaust denial. Let's get some people in who deny the Holocaust. Let's get some real people

and let them, and let's see them defend themselves. I can't do that. People say, what, you don't believe the Holocaust? No, of course I believe the Holocaust happened. But I think that I would like to see the debate. I would like to see the people who deny it be called, and the people who claim the Holocaust, the people who

are representing the fact that the Holocaust did happen, let them say, how do you know there was 6 million? Well, we know there's 6 million because this is... And how do you know... No, listen. We have the names. This is healthy stuff. It's good for people to understand how 6 million was arrived at. Of course it is. How it happened. And we should be challenged even when it's not Holocaust denial. Even when

it's something we're less sure about. We need that oxygen to be able to have these conversations. We can't do it. I can't have Milo on. I can't have a Holocaust denial debate. And this is what I I'm always feeling the urge to push back again. And that's why. That PC culture. I understand that. Well, he's very good at triggering

them. He's very, like, I mean, the way he did it, he is a performer in a way. He's not a talented performer, but he's good enough at getting, when he would get them to groan, he'd be like, oh, look how easy they are. That's the stuff he was doing. And he's right. And as someone who identifies as a liberal, it annoys me when I see them go, oh, I'm like, I have that same reaction

to the crowd. I'm like, come on, we're adults. He's not saying anything bad. See that he's trying to shock you. See that it's nothing. Just give him silence. Give him silence. Let him have crickets. I think if it would have worked for him to be liberal, he would have been liberal. I don't think he has allegiance to either thing I agree totally

he doesn't believe the minute you see him you know he doesn't believe what he's saying that's what annoys me the most about him it feels dishonest I think that's what annoys me

the most about him as a comic at least does Ann Coulter feel dishonest to you yeah it does I feel like it's another manufactured character Kellyanne Conway

feels dishonest Kellyanne Conway you can find tapes of her saying like criticizing Trump and saying he's theyanne Conway, you can find tapes of her saying, like criticizing Trump and saying he's the worst candidate ever, right? Political hack. You can find tapes of her doing stand-up. She gets paid for being a political hack.

The weird thing is in D.C. that's not a liability. That's an inherent problem right there. Was she getting paid as a political hack for the previous comments? Yeah. Just for somebody else. So why are you presuming that those are the ones that represent her real belief? We don't know. I'm not presuming anything.

I'm just saying she gets paid to say whatever is politically expedient. Flip-flop her. Every person in organized politics. Of course, and she has a right to do that. I'm just saying you've got to take that shit with a grain of salt. What did you think of Trump's speech last night? I actually didn't watch it. I'm sorry.

I heard it was subdued. I only saw clips. I was here. Okay. At this point, what he says doesn't really matter much to me. You know, we at the ACLU care what he does, and pretty much everything he's actually done has been constitutionally problematic.

So he can go and behave himself and be calm all he wants for a night. What matters is the action and how he treats people and whether Americans are living in fear unjustifiably because he's rampantly shredding the Constitution, and unfortunately he is. So he's rampantly shredding the Constitution. And unfortunately, he is. So he can give polite speeches all he wants. I care more about seeing the product of his policies. I kind of agree with you.

How is he shredding the Constitution? I mean, we know that your position on immigration restriction, but how else is he shredding the Constitution? Oh, his promise to open up libel laws, right? His comments about it. But he's not going to do that. Well, of course he's not going to do it, right? Because he can't do it. Although I think libel laws, right? His comments about it. But he's not going to do that. Well, of course he's not going to do it, right? Because he can't do it.

Although I think libel laws are ridiculous. Yeah, of course. But also there was the other executive order that was basically like, you know, get out of discrimination free of your religion that apparently got kiboshed. I mean, according to gossip by Jared and Ivanka, but may resurface. Can I make this argument? And the chill on public employees. The degree to which public employees are terrified right now. All the National Park

Service, the other government accounts have been shut. Everyone's in lockstep. There is a huge chill on public employees right now. They are scared. They are legitimately terrified that on the weekend they put up the wrong Facebook post critical. The president got fired on Monday. Now that's a problem. I'd represent them if that happened.

I'm just saying there is a pull over public employees right now and they are terrified about retaliation. I agree with you more on that one. Let me say about the libel laws. I think you agreed with me last time about this. There is a real tension now more than ever between freedom of expression and right to privacy. Yeah, sure. I did a panel

about that this afternoon. And libel laws are not in the Constitution. It's a court decision with New York Times versus Sullivan. Sure. I did a panel about that this afternoon. And libel laws are not in the Constitution. It's a court decision, what, New York Times versus Sullivan? Yep, that's one of them. And they backed into a certain standard, which it's not shredding the Constitution to think that that standard should be revisited. Plenty of countries like England, let's say, which have a very healthy free speech and free press. And lack of First Amendment.

Same with Canada, too, right? Don't have the same. Well, Canada actually does suppress free speech. But England not so much, as far as I know. And they don't use the same standard as New York Times versus Sullivan. And quite often, I don't know how you felt about it. But the EU system has a right to be forgotten. And the problem is that's been taken advantage of by that, too. No, it's terrible. It's been taken advantage of by rich companies who have sued to remove evidence

that we went bankrupt or defrauded our customers six years ago. It's horse shit. It's just benefiting people in power. If some girl goes online and says, Sam Morrell has herpes, I slept with him,

he has herpes. Who told you that? And now it's... In all fairness, that's endemic. That's the second time herpes was mentioned. Now it's there forever. Morrell endemic that's the second time herpes was mentioned now it's there forever

for the people morels will be changing their names or something else to not be associated with grandpa herpes whatever you know it's like there is something there

which disturbs me I think that if somebody has something like that that's personal just because it's true doesn't mean someone ought to be able to put it on the internet

forever for every single person you ever meet for the rest of your life to know that. And right now, truth is an absolute defense. That bothers me. I mean, I don't want to shred the Constitution, but I don't like that. Well, the Internet is what—

I'm on your side here. I have a question. I'm not a lawyer here or anything, so I have a question. I am a lawyer. Sean does a lot of part-time. This is a work. But I mean, you know, could you sue for defamation even if it's true? No.

Really? No. And actually the biggest issue that's arisen in that area is revenge porn. Sure. So, right, like a vindictive ex-lover posts a picture of your genitals online. That's true, right? A picture's about as true as it gets. Right.

You know, do you have an action against them? What are the laws about consent there? They're all just starting to pass, and it's actually one of the most contentious issues of the law. And it's because the Supreme Court has ducked time and time again. When speech and privacy clash, they refuse to kind of make big pronouncements. They say, oh, this is really hard, and we're going to just deal with these really intense specifics. And it's a moving target.

It is. And there's no question. Look, the group I work for at the ACLU is actually called the Speech, Privacy, and Technology Project for exactly the reason you just said. Is that as we have new technologies and really the elephant in the room is the internet, it puts so much pressure on our traditional conceptions of what free speech and privacy mean. It's supposed to work for us. The Constitution is supposed to work for us, not work against us. What is the standard right now? Because you work on the committee.

Right now, the law is more in favor of free speech. So one thing I deal with a lot are mugshot websites. I want to be clear, they ruin people's fucking lives. For the rest of your life, your employer Googles, and they see your mugshot. You might not have even been charged with that crime. But it is my job to argue that that is a government record that needs to be public. And if we allow the Internet to start destroying our fundamental free speech liberties, man, they weren't that robust in the first place. So I agree that the Internet does create real harms.

I'm not hiding my head in the sand, and we have to be thoughtful about that. But I also don't think we allow modern technology to get us in such a tizzy that we undermine the fundamental liberties this country was founded on. And speech is a big one. The issues that I have is when a lot of these controversies spawn articles that you can deem illegitimate publications or internet publications. Like when the whole rape thing was going on with the New York comedy scene. Right now there is something going on with a comic who was accused of something. We talked about that when you were on. Oh, did you?

Oh, sorry. Okay. You can talk about it. You can talk about it. You can talk about it. We're just saying. Yeah. So the thing that bothers me about that is that just based on Facebook, just based on Facebook,

I've seen three internet articles based on somebody's Facebook post. So why? Facebook should not be source material for an article. That's the problem that I have. So I want to see how legitimate is something like a social media post in court. When does that become fact? It's not going to be fact.

It might be added into what the person said. It's hearsay is basically what it is. Yeah, but it is really interesting. I'm not necessarily an expert on journalistic ethics. Right, right, right. But one of the things that we struggle with right now is one of the reasons that the internet has put so much pressure on first amendment law

is because we used to say freedom of the press and that meant something right there was a credentialed press there was new york times now with the internet everybody's got a megaphone is a blogger the press is it only if you have an institutional new york times like the courts have no idea and they're tying themselves in knots to figure that out. Right? And so it really is, I mean, I don't necessarily have all the answers. I'm just saying these are literally the questions we grapple with in my project every day and none of them are easy, man.

When our cell phones become self-aware, that will bring a whole new issue. And we'll get into that next week. Are you coming to the fundraiser next week? I don't know. It depends on when it is. It's with Judd Apatow. Oh, that next week. Are you coming to the fundraiser next week? I don't know. It depends on when it is. But the ACLU's fundraiser? Yeah.

It's with Judd Apatow. I'll get you in. Oh, that's awesome. I'll get you in. And special guests that we can't, are not at Liberty Divulge at this time. You might have to stand, but I can get you in.

We'll see. I don't know if I'm free. I mean, it depends on what it is. I'll definitely be able to get you some free drinks, though. I would love to. All right. Okay, well, listen. You know, this is my...

Dan's already out. I cannot tell you how much I love to talk about things like this, and you're one of my favorite people that I've met. Well, this is certainly in stark contrast to the last couple episodes we had with me. So we really give you great variety here on this podcast, and you never know what you're going to get. I like coming. Oh, you want to do your credits or whatever?

Your Twitter or whatever? I actually have, my Twitter's at ShoneyTime, and I have a podcast of my own called Defend Your Movie. It's where commas come on and defend a movie they love that nobody else does. Sean Donnelly on Twitter and all that jazz. Instagram on all that jazz. Sam Morrell, M-O-R-R-I-L, on all this stuff like that. And I'm Lee Rowland at the ACLU you can find my blogs at ACLU.org

and my Twitter handle where you will find me being attacked by liberals for defending Milo Yiannopoulos theoretical versus memo rights is at Berkatron good night everybody