The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Seattle's Comedy Bar Owners Defend Their Decision to Cancel Controversial Comedians

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

Jes Anderson and Dane Hesseldahl are comics and the owners of Comedy Bar, a local comedy club in Seattle. They recently booked--and promptly canceled--several shows after local complaints about the comics, and found themselves in the midst of a national uproar and an onslaught of online hate.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy seller coming at you on SiriusXM 99, raw comedy, formerly Raw Dog. This is Dan Natterman. I'm here with Noam Dorman, owner of the world-famous comedy seller, period. Alashan Brand joins us, our producer and on-air personality. And you can see us, by the way, also on YouTube if you want to see our pretty faces. Some are prettier than others.

We are joined by... That was pretty good, right? Very good. Very like morning radio. We're joined by Jess Anderson. She's a comedian from Appalachia. I don't know if that's the right pronunciation. She's also a co-host of the Tarp Report, a podcast. And with her best friend and fellow comedian, Dane Heseldahl.

They both own the Comedy Bar, a comedy club in Seattle, and Dane Hesseldahl, is that the right pronunciation? You got it. He joins us as well. So here we are with Jess and Dane from Seattle's Comedy Bar, which made the news recently because they recently disinvited, I believe it was four comedians from the from performing there we did yeah that was um remember the comedians jim florentine correct dave smith you're correct

kurt metzger correct ari shafir no louis jay gomez okay but you would probably also band ari shafir if he was scheduled probably i mean yeah i was i, I was on a roll. So yeah. Well, he's, but he's part of that crew, I think. Well, and see, that's the- The skanks or whatever. The legion. Yes. Yes, that I've heard of. Okay.

Okay. So, so, so, so let's, let's go through this step by step because you must know we come from a very different point of view than you guys do in terms of the way we book our room, where we view our roles in society and all that stuff. So tell us how it came about. Why did you book these guys? And then what led to you, you know, pulling the plug? Well, so what happened was their agent got in contact with me, or Kurt's agent.

They sent me an email and they asked if... Now, Kurt is not one of the Legion of Skanks. He is not. He's Skank adjacent. Yes, right. Which I didn't know. I didn't know who the Legion of Skanks were. I'd never heard of them. I had known Kurt

from Chelsea Lately when I was... I used to watch, I used to love, you know, that kind of pop culture stuff. So I knew him from there. And so when I saw a message for Kurt Metzger, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, that's like, that's so cool. Like I, and I Googled him and, you know, he has a Peabody and I'm like, this is freaking exciting. And so when I was on the phone with his agent, he was like, oh, well, while I have you, I also have these three other guys. And I'm like, hell yeah. And so I got off the phone with their agent feeling like an all-star.

I'm like, I just booked four headliners. I am feeling it. And you have a relatively small club. Yes, and I am brand, yeah. How many seats? Dependent on how we set it up, but 150, 175. Oh, that's not that small.

And you're just starting out, relatively new. We opened in May. So to have a national axe at your club is a feather in your cap. Big deal. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a new booker. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. national acts uh at your club is a is a is a feather in your cap big deal absolutely yeah i've yeah i'm a new booker i don't know what the hell i'm doing and so i was i was so excited um and

and so i had them that was thought it was going to be. So tell us about the research. I talked to investors and just people who were sending me stuff, letting me that like, hey, these are things that have been said. And, you know. So just to go step by step. So you booked them. Yes. And then the investors caught wind of it

by looking at the calendar or you reached out to the investors to let them know? No, I'm looking at the calendar. They looked at the calendar and then they contacted you. Yes. And said what? That this was probably not a good idea.

These are not people that you wanted to welcome into our home. Yeah. And the thing is that the situation is not the investors dictate to us who we can book. But it was a seed that was planted that then we went and we started talking to comedians we work with, producers that we work with, folks in the neighborhood to kind of understand know understand the feeling and you know not only are we new club owners new bar owners you know we're young comedians too right um and so it's like um you know you talk to people who've been around so did you and i want to read the email that kurt put. Did you sample, like, Dave Smith's routine or Kurt Metzger's routine and identify something that you didn't want to have on your stage?

More just, like, the tweets and things like that that they were saying. Well, and I think... I don't want to make this a referendum on, you know, their material and things that they've said or what they've done. I think that, you know... It's more about them as people? Well, it's more about... No, it's more about

the perception of what Legion of Skanks is. You know, they rep themselves as the, you know, the raunchiest, most unfiltered, you know, guys out there, right? And the ethos of our room, our mission, is to provide a safe space for people in our neighborhood to do comedy. I don't know how much you guys know about Capitol Hill. No, let's hold that safe space in because that's a big issue, right?

But just I want to say, Legion of Skanks, when they do their like shows with all of them, it can be pretty raunchy. But like if you watch Dave Smith's 30-minute special I saw recently, that's different. Legion of Stanks is not scripted stand-up.

It's just like this. So it's a bunch of dudes, and they're raunchy, for lack of a better word. They're also bright and insightful and interesting. Absolutely. But each one of them, I don't know Luis Gomez's stand-up, but I know but they're each one of them. No, I don't, I, I know, um, I don't know.

Louis J Gomez is standard, really, but I know Dave Smith stand up. I didn't know Kurt stand up and, um, and I, Florentine, I haven't seen a while.

Florentine is that stand up is, I don't even see it as, as quote unquote problematic. His standup was pretty generic. I don't want to insult him. His standup is pretty typical standup comedy. Fair. He's fantastic. Don't get me wrong, but he's not like one of these guys out there who's super, pretty generic. I don't want to insult him. His standing was pretty typical stand-up comedy fare. He's fantastic,

don't get me wrong, but he's not like one of these guys out there who's super controversial is what I meant. So, well, that's really, so, is it fair that

like a guy, Dave Smith, who was going to come there and do his pretty, you know, a pat stand-up routine, that's what I say, it's really about the person. You don't like, it's not what he was going to say on stage. It's who he is off stage that you didn't want there. I know it sounds like I'm asking accusing questions, but I'm asking actually the proper questions, you know, I'm trying to get to

understand it. So. Yeah. No, I think it's more, i think it was just more of a concern of like what how our friends would perceive us booking these comedians who have you know said these things directly about them well let's go ahead say about the safe space now well i you know it's one of our missions you know capitol hill is one of the most progressive neighborhoods in the country. This is where Chaz was, right? This is where the, uh... Yeah, that's... Chaz was during the, I forget what it stood for, during the Black Lives Matter period.

It was a part of Seattle that, uh, kind of seceded from the union. It declared itself autonomous. You know, I think that that's overblown, and I think that when people, you know, bring that up with regards to Capitol Hill, what that was is that was two blocks, you know i think that that's overblown and i think that that when people you know bring that up with regards to capitol hill what that was is that was two blocks you know and the area is huge it's no it's an indication of how how progressive this part of the country is absolutely yeah i wasn't trying to hang it around your neck i'm just saying um you know uh and so

as a club in this neighborhood you know want to – it's a business. There's a market for what you might call safe space comedy. What I've heard so much about is comedy is this, and comedy is about making fun of yourselves, and comedy is about being able to say whatever you want. And we have a market that's not that. We have a market for people where they can come and they can feel safe to not be made uh to feel bad over aspects of their own existence what well you define your community you are you defining it in terms of your social community or the or the neighborhood or or seattle because i'm pretty sure you made a lot of money on these these guys would have sold out and dave smith would have sold out in a heartbeat sure sure absolutely so it's

not as if the community would have rejected him you probably have way more people for dave smith than they might have come from wherever they came from but not within the capitol hill area yeah yeah so you know these people would be here for one night. We have to be here every day, you know, and, you know... And would they punish you for that? I think that there are producers and comics who would not work with us, you know, if we had gone forward with these shows. You know, we do a lot of queer-focused shows. We do a great open mic called Queers to the front where we prioritize marginalized voices but these guys are libertarians they're not anti-gay they're they're they're these are libertarians they want people to live and let live yeah but again it's it's well the perception of the thing is not based on their stand-up the perception of the thing is based on what the legion of skanks represents as

as a cultural force well What do they represent? I think their whole thing is that we can say the N-word, we can say the F-word. The F-word? Who doesn't say the F-word? Do they say the N-word? No, it's not. Oh, yeah, they probably say the F-word, but

a lot of comedians do. There's a policy at your club that there's no if i were to work there i don't wear clubs because i have anxiety issues uh i prefer one night and get the hell out but but so there's no awkward moment but um would you give me a a list of things or topics to not say i remember there's a club in erie pa that would tell you to be clean i don't think they exist anymore yeah but but do you give your headliners a uh a list of things to topics to avoid or words not to say no no i mean we have a code of conduct for our open mics but um you know that said i you know we we do our best to book people who you know

don't use that language you know so so even if if somebody says says fuck but just as a punctuation like what the fuck is that that would be a care about no no we don't care about fuck we care about language that denigrates other human gay slurs gay slurs racial slurs now you ableism all that kind of stuff in the email that leaves Dan out in the email that I do have one joke about a woman in a wheelchair stuff in the email that leaves dan out in the email um that uh i do have one joke about a woman in a wheelchair but in the email that you wrote kurt it's available online maybe maybe i'll we did not write that email to kurt you didn't write it to his man it was to yeah it was to his agent like i didn't realize that it was going to be like an a press anything you say

or write in yeah well i mean yeah like from perspective, we booked them on the February 8th, and on February 22nd, two weeks later, we decided to revisit the bookings. We hadn't signed contracts yet. Right. And so, you know, and it felt reasonable in a two-week time frame. No, it's your business.

You can do what you want. So much of the email tracks what you've already said, but then there's one part here which says, we truly value the art of comedy and the diverse perspectives it brings to our lives. Sure. But it sounds like that's the opposite of what you're saying. You don't want,

you don't want diverse perspectives. You want perspectives that, that conform to your perspective. I don't, I think that there's a difference between saying I, I, I don't, I think that there's a difference between saying, I value a perspective and I want someone to come into my business to represent that perspective. I think that there's a place for all sorts of stand-ups.

These guys got rebooked in Tacoma. I think that's fantastic. Those are great clubs. And they'll do very well, and I'm happy for them. I mean, it's not that I don't think they should be able to do comedy. It's just I don't want them to do comedy in in my club because it's not a good business decision it's not a judgment about it's hard it's a hard sell to say i really value diverse perspectives but not in my club i mean if you valued it wouldn't you have it in your club

but we do have diverse perspectives we just don't have... From what's the range of diverse perspectives? I mean, we have... Like me and my club, we had a night where they had Norman Finkelstein calling Israel a genocidal state. Would you allow that in your club, by the way? I didn't say I don't. I don't know. That's an unsure.

You remind me of the Harvard president. And then another night, we had some people from the IDF answering questions about defending the IDF. So that's diverse perspectives. And we actually, we get a lot of flack for that, but we actually do value diverse perspectives. And we try to live that way. And I put on perspectives that make my stomach turn because I feel that's my obligation to do that. It's only meaningful to say I'm about free speech when I have to sit through speech that really bothers me. To say I'm about free speech and put on things I agree with, that's a free ride, right?

Well, but you do that because that's what your audience wants. No, no. I do it even if the audience doesn't want, but you do that because that's what your audience wants. No, no. I do it even if the audience doesn't want it. I do it because I believe it's fundamental to America. But, well... That sounds overblown, but I swear to God, that's true. Just to clarify, that was not an evening of comedy. That was another kind of event.

So what? Well, the point is... I do the same thing with comedy, too. But with comedy, of course what your one criterion is they've got to make the audience laugh yeah if the people who bought tickets to see dave smith would certainly have enjoyed dave smith he's not going to impose dave smith on the people don't want to see him he's on the calendar who's going to buy tickets at dave smith dave smith's audience right so that's what i'm saying it's not about you weren't about i don't put words in your mouth

it wasn't about offending the people who came to the club that night to see these acts it was about the people who were not there in the neighborhood who are telling you you shouldn't be showing diverse perspectives well those are our customers like we're we're a local club yeah we're a local club those are our neighbors like 99 of our ticket sales are people who live within a few blocks of us. You know, our biggest advertiser is an A-frame sign outside the club. So, has it... Okay, so let me... So, I would hope that people would recognize the following.

Most of the progressive causes which have won the day, gay civil rights you name it all the things that we value started out as uh offensive ideas to the community that were able through the social norm of allowing these people to express themselves to uh to win the day and become the new majority opinion? Isn't there something distasteful about people who've achieved great things by being allowed, and only by being allowed to speak and present themselves, then turning the tables on the views that they don't agree with to try to make sure that they're not heard. In other words, we were right, so therefore it was right, but oh no.

Now that we have what we wanted, we're shutting the spigot off. This free speech comes to an end now. So it's not about, shouldn't they value the principles that benefited them rather than the opportunistic ability to censor people the way people tried to censor them when they were trying to say, you know, women should vote, black people should vote, gay people should get married. Across the street here at the Cafe Ogogo, very famous, when Lenny Bruce was arrested for violating the community sensibilities. These are the people historically you're lining up with.

You recognize that. So you're all in on the fact that the one ideas that I am going to get behind censorship on, these are the right ones. And I know they're the right ones. And that's why it's worth principle. The principle ends here. Because I know they're the right ones and that's why it's worth principle the principle ends here because I know I'm right and they have nothing to offer to the debate I think we said that well that's what that's what your cause the

people that you're afraid of offending well but I I would tell them to go F themselves say this is America but I want they and by the way would you tell them how to make money? In other words, you have to make a living. But isn't that what everyone else is doing right now? That's what everyone else is telling us to do. We have to do it a certain way. No, you don't have to. I'm saying that you're...

But if we don't do it this way, then we're wrong. Well, you're ceding a basic American principle that we all grew up with, which is that I may despise what you're saying, but I'd fight to the death for your right to say it. This was an old cliche, right? You can say it wherever you want. Well, no.

But not out there. You can, as opposed to saying, but I'll fight, the point of I'll fight to the death for your right to say it is both, could be literally, but figuratively, you fighting with your life

for someone's right to say it would mean I will book you at my club, you're going to sell out, I'm going to fight for the principle that people should be able to express themselves. I mean, they're not Nazis. These are not hard cases. These are not, I mean, according to the emails,

I'm the Nazi. It's just, for me, the way that I look at it, it's like we, I don't, it was a mistake that I made. I, I fucked up by booking them in the first place. That was trying to be a comic as well. So I understand how important a booking is, especially at a club, especially at a club in Seattle. I did not take making that decision lightly, but I didn't cancel them. I just canceled the booking.

No, nobody said you canceled. And I don't want, but the thing is that Kurt went on national television and said that I deserve to be taught a lesson. Deserve to be ridiculed. And we've been getting bomb threats. Bomb threats. People have been telling me that I should be raped and my children should be killed. Obviously, I've had some experience with the same thing

for opposite opinions of you. Right, well, so. Which is really what I'm getting at. Right. Well, but no. Can we be on the opposite, like can we understand each other? Like why can't there be a club

that does what your club does and then a club that does what ours does? Okay, but respectfully, the people are saying these outrageous things to you you're feeding them the rationale to behave that way in my opinion because by acknowledging threaten to rape me no no to feel that anger nobody should threaten to rape anybody obviously this goes out saying these are the excesses, but the, the underlying cause that they're feeling is fed by your actions, which communicate these people are not fit in polite company. And that can work both ways. The idea that people, one side sees it this way,

they'll see it the other way. The idea that if you cross the line and allow the people we decide to speak, you're doing a horrible thing. Your customers will try to shut you down. They're offended. You'll lose them. On the other side, as opposed to the notion of everybody accepting,

listen, I don't need to like everybody that plays at that club. They're not Nazis. You know, let them. It's none of my business who appears there tomorrow night. I'll buy a ticket to see. They do show queer-centric shows, and they show things that are right up my alley, and I admire them for that and I'll go

see those shows. But good for them if they want to bring in somebody, you know, they value diverse perspectives. If you had shown me some bit that one of these guys was going to say, this is, you know, offends me personally, I mean, at least I would entertain that, but

this is to me worse than that because it's just based on them. Like, you don't like what they do. That's how I feel. You have a right. I'm being honest with you. No, I mean, I get it. But you know what I would say again, as I don't want to get mired. We're trying to keep their comedy out of it. Yeah. I don't want to get mired down in like what they've said or what they've done. This is a business decision for us. We heard from our customers and we we listened and like i said the people that would see these shows are driving in from spokane they're driving in from wherever they're going to come see this show and then they're not going to come see you know our queer focus shows next week that you know they're

these are not people that that um are going to regularly patronize the club the people that are going to be perturbed by having these acts and another another big aspect that we haven't addressed is that the the crowds for these shows are wild you know i mean and and and as evidenced by the the messages that that we've received you know the crowd the crowds are okay look i don't want to compare this skank show in vegas i believe that's the skank show and actually that was well behaved too but that's that's the skank show i mean you can's the skank show. And actually, that was well-behaved, too, but that's the skank show. I mean, you can see... But I'm saying, if that audience...

How would you assess that audience? It was a dude, bunch of dudes. It was well-behaved, you know? There was no fighting or anything, you know? But again, that's the Legion of Skanks thing, which I don't think is what Dave Smith's... Right, but I'm saying, if that crowd wasn't too much, then one can assume that individually

the crowds wouldn't be out of hand necessarily. But I don't want to compare Kurt Metzger to Rosa Parks. But the people who wouldn't let people sit at the lunch counter, use the water fountains, you know, things like this. Very often they said the same thing. I got customers to worry about. I have, you know, this is... But, yeah, but you do have customers.

I mean, you yourself have said that, you know, there is a limit to, you would break at some point. We're talking about Louis C.K. and you said that, you know, in principle you wanted him to work here. But at some point, if you got enough flack and business was suffered enough, then you would not use him. And that didn't happen.

Right. But the point is, is that business decisions are legitimate. We're also, I'm not. Well, maybe they were in the case of civil rights also. I mean, what do you say? Maybe it's okay to not want to let black people sit at the lunch counter because it's bad for business. It was legal. These are weighty issues.

Like I said, I don't want to compare them to that outrage. It's not the same thing. Nevertheless, I am saying that there are principles here. I don't think your business would have crumbled. No one's going to stop coming because Dave Smith worked there one night. I mean...

We don't know. We don't know. I mean, the thing that I would say is, I'm not you. I don't have your experience. I've never... We've never run a club before. We're not the comedy seller.

We're a small, new club, and scraping by it by the skin of our teeth you know what i'm saying and just trying to figure it out yeah i have a question though no no can i just say something this is this is very fair point you're making like when when you're when you're counting pennies, as it were, it's easy for me to say, you know, take a chance. I've been in your situation, and I understand the anxiety you're describing. I don't mean to not take it seriously. You guys don't understand the anxiety they're describing. I do.

I understand anxiety. Go ahead, Perrin. I'm wondering, though, if it's a business decision, and presumably you booked these guys because you thought they would sell out, and it sounds like people were driving in from all over. No. The only person who sold tickets was Dave. Yeah. And so that whole they're selling out thing, I don't, I mean, the tickets for the link was only up for two weeks anyway so none of them were sold and i think i think dave smith sold like 16 or 17 tickets in two weeks but the reason that i booked them was because like i said i was a fan of kurt

when he was on chelsea lately i remember the first day of ukraine i got an uber and the Uber driver's like, do you have a mask? I was like, did you not hear about Ukraine, dipshit? We're not doing that now. People in New York still wear masks? But if you still wear a mask, just so you know, okay. You're just doing that because your own personal kind of like a fat kid that wears a t-shirt in a swimming pool that's that's your face i mean if you think it's doing something go ahead i didn't know about the falling out of chelsea lately and all of the history and all of that stuff. Like, I watched him on that, and that was it.

And so, and then when I was on the phone, that's when we booked the other three guys. So if they had sold out, would you have kept them on? No. No, no. That's not what I was saying. Yeah, it's, like, it might make us money that night, but it would cost us money in the long run.

It would cost us reputationally. Unless you're building a club where people are driving in from other places. But that's not been our business model. I understand your predicament, and I understand you're timid because of both your,

your newness to the industry and because you're, you're precarious nature of running a new business. Right. I do understand. And not knowing what the hell we're doing. Right. Yeah. And like,

and yeah. And even in this, like try to just navigate that. We don't like, well, I have no idea. I should warn you. The last new comedy club owner that came in here, I know I'm telling them, don't like well i have no idea i should warn you the last new comedy club

owner that came in here i know i'm telling them uh don't do it yeah well no if somebody said that i think kurt said that it was going to be a halloween spirit by next year and we're like oh fingers crossed like if all goes right then like for fuck's sake like i feel like at this point i should have gone into politics it would have been easier yeah like it would have been um a less you basically did yeah i just didn't i didn't know i had no idea and you and that's the thing is i didn't know i don't know what i don't know and i'm i'm learning and maybe this whole thing was a huge mistake and maybe we will find out that we completely fucked up by on you know unbook here? No, I'm just kidding. I mean, I already died.

No. And this will be another lesson, just like what I learned with Kurt and this whole thing was that I need to pay attention to what the fuck I'm doing. I don't think Starstruck, yeah. We got Starstruck

when we did the book. Listen, my opinion is you should run a comedy club, not pursue an agenda. You're in a big, I don't know the city, but it's a pretty big city there. And if you can get national acts, you should book national acts. I'm trying to.

Right. And you have your days where you can indulge your social justice concerns and have your open mic for oppressed or marginalized people, whatever. You're not going to make any money from that stuff. There's no, you know, you're just not going to make any money from that stuff. And the comedy is not going to be good. Not that nobody will be good, but there's a reason that people become national acts.

I respectfully disagree. You know, I do think there's a market for it. I think that the idea that there's one type of comedy, there's one type of way to run a comedy, I just, I reject that. I summarily reject that. There's not one type of comedy, but it all has to be funny what i know from many many years of experience that if you are going to draw comics because of their attributes rather than because you hear them do fantastic material

you're not going to have a great show again you, you might have this funny joke, that funny joke, but people are not funny or not funny because they're gay, straight, black, white. They're funny not because they're talented. And that's not how we're... I totally agree. Yeah, and you're not going to say, let's just have only, let's only have 10 gay comics in Seattle.

Obviously, that's not going to be a great show. That's not how we book. We don't book based on attributes. We book on people that... So you have a night devoted to... Well, it's called Queers to the Front. That just means that they have the opportunity to go up first. It doesn't mean that only queer people can be there.

It's for everyone. But why don't... It's just a confusing name. I mean, okay. I mean, I don't... I more lament the audience that you're dealing with than your your reaction to it because i understand why you might have uh blinked but the the hunger of that the blood that that audience is after to make sure that nobody shall say or think anything that they don't approve of.

And they'll ruin you, even if they know you're an ally. If you, God forbid, would try to feed yourselves by putting on Kurt Mesker or Dave Smith, that disturbs me. I think that's a mischaracterization. It's not about speech police. It's not about you can't say anything you want what we're reacting to is statements made at the expense of other people what statement i mean the the legion of skanks like if you look at their website it's you know they they praise themselves this is the this is the podcast where you're gonna hear the word you know this is the podcast where you're gonna hear the n-word and we don't care. Is that true, Max? Can you look that up?

Depends how they use it, right? I don't think so. You just used it. I used it as an example. Because you thought we were talking about fuck earlier. You used it in discussing it. Did you call somebody?

But that wasn't a joke, though. It wasn't an attempt to make a joke. I'll listen more on the most offensive podcast on earth. I mean, I read somewhere that there was a quote, and it's something that they actively market, is that we are outrageous. We are offensive. So let me show you something.

I posted this on Twitter. I can't believe I didn't think of it until just now noam is there any place in your mind for comedy clubs promoting a certain brand the stand i mean i mean they i guess they book a variety of acts but they kind of fancy themselves as sort of outlaws in the comedy world and and and this club in seattle Seattle, they brand themselves in another way. I don't know if he's listening. I'm listening, yes. But is that legitimate in your mind? To say, well, we present this kind of comedy.

It's not for everybody, but that's our brand. Do what you want. It just bothers me that the audience is so intolerant. Anyway, so this was an ad from the papers from the late 70s, I guess, a Richard Pryor movie. Now, Richard Pryor, you probably wouldn't allow on your stage. Right?

I mean, if you think about what he said and what he did and the kind of material he did, talked about violence with women. I mean, you think about what he said and what he did and the kind of material he did talked about violence with women I mean it's a lot yeah the greatest comic of all time anyway but it wouldn't resonate with our audience right so but it wouldn't not only would it not resonate with your audience

but again it's not about resonating with your audience your audience would not permit you to show it even to the audience that it did resonate with they feel that they have a say not not just in what they see, but what you should be doing when they're not there. Yeah, with their dollars, with what they spend, with whether they come to the club. That's their say. But this is one night with Dave Smith.

They don't want him there, not because they wanted to go that night. It's because they don't want you showing these uh presenting this stuff when they're not there because you have to stand for this it's like you know the personal is political like communism like it's the way you live has to be pristine the way you book the way you speak is not just who you put on your stage it's your whole way of life that they're going to judge but you you but isn't... Do you not feel that? Yeah. So anyway, so Richard Pryor,

the ad for Richard Pryor, just nothing has changed. Friday, number one, Richard Pryor, like you know him, harsh, vulgar, shocking, offensive. Richard Pryor live in concert. This was how things were marketed to liberal people. This was not my grandparents

going to see Richard Pryor. These were young, liberal, tolerant, left-wing people. The way you could reach them was say, vulgar, shocking, offensive. Richard Pryor in concert. Now, we've come full circle saying, Legion of Skanks is saying they're vulgar,

shocking, and offensive. We can't book them. So you are lining up with, I want you to come through. You're lining up with the bad guys of the past. That's really my only point. You call them bad guys. Do you think maybe

Jess and Dane are not... are mis-evaluating their audience and that their audience wouldn't mind at all? Do you think that they're... i do think you are but that's it but that's not for me to say you have you have to make it's your business you have to make that judgment but i just i mean i said that earlier when i said this could all be a mistake yeah i mean i think it's a mirage yeah now i found that out the hard way right but

exactly that's but and as a booker like and as somebody who like like there there is an amount of pressure there is i i can't imagine doing this without feeling the the the pressure of the community and i do want to do the right thing um i i don't want to ruin comedians careers no you're not or like no i mean and so but and and and i don't want to i also don't want to censor people or keep them from, you know, being able to perform or, you know, but I- I think that if this is worth anything, I'm not a booker, but I have learned a few things

just from listening to Noam. I think that the danger that you run, and of course you can do whatever you want, is that like, where does it end? Like at what point or at what word that you run, and of course you can do whatever you want, is that where does it end? At what point or at what word or at what podcast, where do you draw the line? And that becomes something that is very murky. I know I asked him before, and it is interesting,

and I think this is true any of your comics could tweet out anything they want about israel and they would not lose their spot at your club did you see what happened with michael rapaport at helium in portland no so they booked him and there were there was incredible dissatisfaction. There were protests. There was merch made. The city stood up and completely rejected him. They went forward with the booking.

And I know a lot of comedians and producers that won't work there now. And I think that there was reputational damage. And so it's- I'm going to say there's no comedian that won't work there now because they booked Michael Rappaport. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe it. People can say that, but I'm sure if somebody were offered a spot... Right, of course.

Well, comedians are going to... I mean, we're going to go wherever they want. Absolutely. And if they do feel it, it's outrageous. But what I'm saying is that you guys, because I know the politics of that area, you may not want to let anybody from the Legion of Skanks on because they use the F word,

but they can say what they want about the Jews. I mean, I looked at some of the Twitter feeds of some of the people you book. They can say whatever they want. Right? You don't care what they say about the Jews because your audience... And by the way, I don't care what somebody says about the Jews because your audience, I mean, and by the way,

I don't care what somebody says about the Jews in my club. Well, about Israel or about anything. I feel like I really feel like it's none of my business. What people say is, I mean, I may be crazy in the way I feel this way. I don't care what people think.

But if somebody came into our club and was like, that was their whole thing was they were just shitting on somebody or something they're not in the club i'm talking about in their private lives if you say you you have your issues that you care about but it's not bigotry right but like what it's just bigotry what we were worried about was that they were going to bring that into our club like why wouldn't they but why wouldn't you could see their standup on YouTube. You see what they say. I mean, I don't think, Jim Florentine wouldn't say, right?

Jim Florentine doesn't say anything. I haven't seen him in a while. He always struck me as a fairly non-controversial comment. Yeah, me too. I can show you the emails they got. I said generic, I didn't mean generic. I can play and show you, i can play your voicemail emails from your customers or from no from their fans oh now you're cowards on top of scum

you have to record your calls because there's so many people that hate you want to burn your shit to the ground you're scum you your tries, your faggots, all you fucking pieces of shit. Fucking die. We will take Seattle back. My great-grandparents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents, my family built motherfucking Seattle, bitches. My family's

lived here since motherfucking Seattle before it was even a fucking city. You pieces of scum, shit, fucking city. You pieces of scum shit fucking guy. Fuck your comedy club. Free speech. Cancel people because their beliefs don't align with you. This is America.

Free speech, you woke, goofy, liberal fucks. Fuck your comedy club. Free speech now and forever, you little blue-haired woke biden voters trump mega 2024 fuck you you fucking nazis i will say this if you know your fans are capable of rape threats it it is irresponsible to set them loose. Absolutely.

That I will say. And, you know, you should know who your audience is and have some ownership about what they do if you're encouraging it. I've had that problem too. I... Noam got death threats for putting Louis on. I don't know that you can take responsibility for poorly behaved.

Well, I mean, he was literally encouraging. Kurt was encouraging. He said that I need to learn a lesson, like go for her head. And it would be one thing if it said comedy bar, but it said my name. Like I'm getting, they're coming for my name. Where did Kurt say that? On the Jimmy Dore. Jimmy Dore.

I watched the Jimmy Dore. I didn't hear him say it. Yeah. But maybe I missed it. And also on a local conservative radio show in Seattle, Nathan Rath. He said, I don't dislike her personally, but I think that she should be ridiculed. I think that she should be made an example. Well, ridiculed is that I deserve a scarlet letter.

Yeah. Instead of this just being like... Instead of... Like, I be made an example. Well, ridicule is that I deserve a scarlet letter. Yeah. Instead of this just being like, I just made a mistake. And we tried to resolve it professionally. We contacted its management within two weeks of the booking. I did everything that I was supposed to do. We sent them a private message. It's not like we got on Twitter and said, we're not booking these guys for X of these reasons. We didn't think it was a public matter.

We're learning. We went back to their manager with a private message that was respectful. At no point did we condemn them as people. At no time did we condemn them, their comedy. We told them based on conversations that we had with the people that matter to us, we needed to revisit the booking and we wish them the best. You know, this was not a smear campaign. There's a big difference between saying a book should be banned and I don't want a book in my home. You know what I'm saying? And so it's just, it's been characterized as this issue of cancel culture. That we hate them and that we're coming after them. And that is like. Well, it is related to cancel culture. But up until you said that last sentence, I have a lot of sympathy for you,

what you're going through, what it feels like to be going through what you're going through, and the fact that the people on the other side, I mean, they're comedians, and he feels you should be ridiculed, and I get that that because the point of view that you believe, I've ridiculed. Asking for a particular person to be ridiculed, he doesn't know his own strength. I know Kurt. He's a good person.

I don't doubt it. No, no, I'm just going to say that he wouldn't want you to be scared or any of these things. We're scared. We got a bomb threat yesterday. Yeah, he wouldn't want that. But people can be very, not realize.

That's awful. I'm sorry. The ripple effect, the butterfly effect of the things that they do, especially when they have a rabid audience. And I've been on the receiving end of some of these things more than once. Um,

so I, I, it would be lying of me to not, uh, acknowledge it. I am interested in the Jewish thing though. Is that okay? That anybody,

well, there's, there's certain progressive politics. I'll, I'll just say, and you can just, there's certain progressive politics. We know what it is.

And right now, is that okay? I mean, I'm not going to say that's okay. Right's certain progressive politics, we know what it is, and right now- No, it's not okay. I mean, I'm not going to say that's okay. Right now, in progressive politics, like I said on the show yesterday, because I got in trouble for putting these IDF people on, and I said I could put on any left-wing anti-Semite

in the country, and nobody would really give me any grief at the club. A right-wing anti-Semite, they say, you're Nazis, blah, blah, blah, but a left-wing president because for whatever reason it's okay to say whatever you want about jews on the left and as a matter of fact you know it listen well i don't know going back and forth you don't mean to be you're nice people you're obviously nice people you're obviously well intentioned people you're in a you're in an industry that that is about free expression. You're in an industry that has a history

of having landmark incidents regarding free expression that affect the culture. So you chose that industry. Now, you don't have to live up to that calling, but it's not like you opened a deli and you found yourself in the middle of this. This is a traditional issue. George Carlin, lawsuits, Lenny Bruce, government putting people in jail. So you're in that industry.

And you're becoming a cousin. Again, you're nice people. You don't want to be, of the people smashing the windows. Was it at Berkeley this week? They had some Jewish speaker there. And the kids there didn't like that this guy was going to speak sympathetically to Israel, so they start smashing the place

up. This is more than a Jason. This is a close cousin of the sentiment that you're buckling to and and no matter how much and i'm not saying it within sincerity how much i i do appreciate your position and i don't even say in your position i would do differently i don't i haven't been tested exactly like you're being tested i have been tested but i'm like in that particular way and And I know that you're not bad people.

Not that you came here from my opinion, but I can't sign off on it because it's wrong. In the end, it's wrong. It's leading the country down a terrible direction where everybody, fueled by their certainty

that their position is the right one, so right, that no one else should even be platformed. And I will smash up Berkeley. And I will riot outside the comedy cellar. And I'll put this comedy bar out of business if they should have the nerve not to endorse a view I don't like, but simply to allow that view to be heard. This is heavy stuff. You waded into it because this is the business you've chosen,

like they say in The Godfather. This is not something you never could see coming in the comedy business. This is the comedy business. And that's all I can say about it. You are nice people, no question. I don't know. I mean,

it's really challenging to hear you put us in context with civil rights and gay marriage and we're silly we're a silly little local club we do open mics four nights a week do you think that the cafe a go-go across the street was some big shot club when they got into the Lenny Bruce thing? Well, I... No. They had 80 people in that place. These guys didn't even know that they were booked here.

No, I get it. I get how it happened. I get it. I'm just saying, you know. You know, we... But now that it is a national issue, you're standing for something, and that's what, you know,

you're standing for the enemy of the comedy. Maybe the friends of progressive politics as you define it, but not the people who stick up for comics. I reject the idea that there's this sort of binary way to do comedy, that there's real comedy and not real comedy. I didn't say anything like that. Well, then how can we be the enemy of comedy for producing? The enemy of comedy because you're allowing the audience to dictate.

Again, not only do they come see you, they're allowing the audience to dictate that certain things shouldn't be said. Judy Gold, who I'm sure you're familiar with, wrote a book and had a one-woman show recently. And I'm assuming you know who Judy is. How could you miss her? Yeah, I think that she was really on the front lines of the LGBT movement.

It affected her career. I mean, you can hear her talk about it a lot. She wrote a book and had a one-woman show. She came out of the closet and she lost a lot of work. And the book is called, and the one-woman show is called, Yes, I Can Say That. So I do think that as people who deal in speech and language, myself included, this is an issue that

even if you have a tiny little club somewhere, like it's ours. And so... What do you mean it's ours? It's our issue. You have microphones and you are giving people the power or taking away the power or the ability to say things that you like or you don't like or and like no could i just ask i feel i feel really bad because the one the one part of this that which really

is not fair is that you wrote a private email and this is being weaponized against you so you know you didn't and we're gonna lose this fight every single time we don't know what we're doing like these guys have 99.9 thousand more people in their corner than we do yes like it's you guys have years of experience that we do not have. Well, they say that, that we should know. We don't know.

I didn't know until I actually did it. Exactly. And so like, I don't know what I don't know and I'm learning and I'm like fucking up and that's, and I've said it and I've said, I'm so sorry that this happened, but I don't think that all of the things that you're saying is true.

Yeah. About it. You don't have to agree with me. that you're saying is true about it. You don't have to agree with me. To your point about the private email, I was pretty shocked. I was pretty shocked, number one, that Kurt didn't have the courtesy to remove her name and contact information from it. That felt targeting and unprofessional. And the second thing is that, yeah, it was a private email. We didn't attempt to embarrass them.

We apologized. We wished them well. You know, I don't understand what is so controversial about having values and deciding what shows are right for your club and which shows aren't. You know, that doesn't make me the enemy of comedy. That makes me somebody that I want to go see shows at. That makes me proud of myself.

You know what, in a weird way, if you had presented it as, I'm the owner here, and I'm personally offended by these people, I'm not booking them, you'd kind of be on stronger ground than saying, our customers and our community and our investors didn't like it because there's a difference. Like, if you if you say this is my house and i only want things i'm comfortable with in my own business and you get your own business then then that's that's it not

like i thought that was like a given well no it was i mean it was well maybe i mean if i yeah like i mean if but the the the appeal appeal, the reason it feels like cancel culture is that there's a mob out there which is dictating to you as opposed to you being... Well, how much... I know your investors might have mentioned, might have balked at some of these bookings. Did you get pushback from your regular customers

about these bookings? Is there a reason to believe that they would have stopped coming to your club if you had booked these people? Absolutely. I would use the example of Michael Rapoport at Helium again. And, you know, I know you say that no comics will go there, but I know that there are people that will not go back there because they booked him for his viewpoints on Israel, right?

And so it's— Although there might be some other group that will go for that reason. Sure. And that's great. What I don't want to do is we've got a business model that we're committed to. We've got a mission statement. We've come out and told the neighborhood this is what we stand for. From the very beginning. From the very beginning, we've said that we stand for a place where anyone can come

and feel safe to see a comedy show and not be you know not be called out for being a blue-haired freak right you know which is a thing that's thrown around on you know about seattle on the on the jimmy door podcast pretty you know um you Um, you know, it's that idea that there are people who won't come see comedy because they're afraid they're gonna walk in and somebody's gonna be like, you're trans and make a bunch of, you know, jokes at the expense of their right to exist. And so, for us, that was our mission,

is this is a place where anybody can come from any walk of life with any any look any way to approach their existence any pronouns any any gender affiliations any anything can come in and feel like they're not going to be singled out because they get that in their real life all the time and comedy is supposed to be for everybody But I think that there's a lot of people who live in Seattle who wouldn't come to your club because of that. And so how does that make comedy for everybody? How do you, if there's a market for that and there's a place for that, and we're not telling people they can't do those jokes. What we're saying is we're trying to curate an experience based on our mission statement.

I don't think comics are in the business of abusing audience. Oh, no, they do from time to time. I mean, that's not I don't know if they abuse a trans person. I think they abuse a trans person last. Very, very. I haven't heard anybody call out a trans person in our audience. I mean, sorry, that's that's that's just an example. Right. You know, but I mean, we know that's just an example right you know but i mean we know i i was not disagreeing with you but i i mean it's possible it's possible

but um at the very least look that's their brand yeah they they have a right to that and but but but i i don't want to concede the point that these people are anti-trans or anti-gay. No, I don't. But it has to be. If these people violate your brand, they have to be violative of the brand. No, it's not that they're— If the brand is safe space for gay people, then these people must be bad for gay people. It's not the saying that they're anti-trans.

It's saying what's off-lim limits for them to do comedy-wise. Like, what, like, you know... You don't have to be anti-trans to go up and make trans jokes that you think are funny that make other people feel bad. So are Holocaust jokes okay? Ugh, the Jews and the Holocaust. Stop! I mean, what? It's a totally legitimate question. If somebody got on stage and did nothing but Holocaust jokes,

no, that would not be okay. Well, not nothing but Holocaust jokes, but Holocaust jokes. It's okay. Like, if you make it, like, I've told people, like, I have a very controversial comic who I have booked, and he has a rape joke. And I'm like, listen, if you tell a rape joke,

it better fucking be funny. Oh, that's a good attitude. Yeah, exactly. I know. And so I'm figuring it out. Of course, you don't know it's funny until you tell it. You got to test it. Right.

You know, and it may not be funny. But this was for a paid gig. And so I feel like it should have been. Well, who are the comics that would fit your brand well and that you're having, that are headlining in the near future? Dave Chappelle. Yeah, absolutely. We just had Ian Carmel.

I don't know. Absolutely slayed. I don't know. Katie Boyle, phenomenal. Oh, the Irish? Yeah, yeah. Sold out a weekend. Ollie Sultan was fantastic.

He's great. He was there. And they all have their own viewpoints. Max Amini. Yeah, Max Amini came out. I don't know if you're familiar with him. The Persian comic. We have Eddie Pepitone.

Oh, well, we know Eddie. We know Eddie. And all of those comics have their own viewpoints, and they're completely free to express them what what where i draw the line is when you start disrespecting or denigrating someone else's existence but did they the the comics who've done the comics i just listed i think you're drawing the line meaning that like uh uh jim florentine violate denigrates people's existence. And I'm just saying, it's not to my knowledge,

he wouldn't and hasn't. I'm not saying that he does that. I'm saying that that, you know, we're talking about the philosophy of the club. We're talking about, you know, what you're characterizing as, you know, you know, stifling someone's First Amendment rights, telling them they can't say something.

What we're saying is you can't ridicule people from our stage. I'm not saying that's what Jim Florentine's going to do. Right, but Jim Florentine's the guy you won't let play there, so you are saying that's what he's going to do, aren't you? The podcast and the group, and I know the problem is that these guys all came to us from one manager. They were all booked at the same time. It's not like we could go and say, we don't want this guy. We don't want this guy.

We want this guy. So who's the guy you really didn't want? Who's the one who had to go? It was Jim. Jim Florentino? No, we're kidding. No, it's not Jim. I mean, so yeah, I mean, part of that is just the reality of canceling multiple acts with a management that we just assumed. So there's one act there.

I don't want you to say who it is because obviously you don't want whoever their followers are. But obviously what you're implying is that it, it, it, it was all or nothing. And within that bouquet of comedians, one of them was, was more than you could risk.

Look, if somebody, if somebody booked me and then canceled and said, look, no offense. And, and there's nothing against you. We just don't feel you're right for our club.

Uh, I would just be like, okay. I mean, I might be upset if I had booked, if I had cleared that weekend out, and I might want compensation, something for my pain and suffering. You know, had I lost work because I turned a gig down? One hundred percent.

You know, that I would want. Listen, this is... But my personal reaction would have been, okay. That's what we expect. But this is not that. This is an issue, I have to say, where all the arguments have some merit. Many of the things you guys are saying to me are to be reckoned with. It's not nonsense what you're saying.

But the implication of what they're saying is a criticism. It's not just you're not right for the club. You know, we have a lot of Southern people here. They're not going to get your Northern humor. It's a moral knock. They're saying you're not morally acceptable for our club. And it's perfectly natural that people who are told you're not morally acceptable to be indignant. Say, fuck you.

Who are you to say I'm not morally acceptable? That's what's going on. But there's other layers to it, which you've expressed, and those layers could be true, and you don't want to take the risk to find out whether you're erring on the side of caution. Also assume that nothing you put in writing is ever private. Like just assume it's going to be shared.

That is on the lessons learned from this list. That should be on the new code of conduct. Yeah. I think you should, I think, would you be able to create one night, which is by design, you know, a less filtered night? You know, we're saying we don't endorse it, but this is, you know, like, can't your audience give you the freedom to make some money? Say, listen, we can book some national acts. We're not going to book anybody who we know is going to do a bunch of gay jokes,

but it's possible somebody might say, you know, they're not going to submit. These are all the things which comedians used to complain about. We're not going to force them to submit their act and we're going to go through like this on tonight's show in advance. And if they really are offensive,

we won't book them again. But shit, we can sell out two shows at 40 bucks, you know, for Jimim florentine you know it's it's not fair they don't pay your rent they have to be reasonable yeah they have to be reasonable but i i understand but at the on the the flip side it does me no good if i take a stand in the name of free speech and I lose my entire customer base and I go out of business. So like how, like, how does that? All I can tell you is that you wouldn't, but, but I can't, I can't. Don't take my, I remember that the Seinfeld episode about,

open a restaurant from your native land. Yeah. Open a comedy club where people can say whatever they want. Trust me. It'll be, it'll be great. Yeah. There's a nuance to this neighborhood that I think is really hard to appreciate if you don't live there. Just like the Castro in San Francisco. It's hard to explain, and people from the outside don't get it. They just don't.

And it seems ridiculous, but it's my home. Well, look, you're the nicest villains of comedy I've ever met. And I appreciate you coming on the show. We're about finished. I mean it from the bottom of my heart when I say you're nice people. You don't have bad intentions.

You are caught in a tough bind. You don't have my fanatical free speech agenda in mind. You're just trying to make a living and keep your head down and feed yourselves and your families. And you didn't sign up for this. And I do hope that the other side uh appreciates all that and can detect in your tone and your manner that they should leave you alone they should leave you alone as thank you as much

as they might agree with what i'm saying, you don't deserve, you've gotten more than you deserve already enough. They should leave you alone. That's what I think. Thank you. That would be my advice. Appreciate it. Thank you.

That'd be great. Thank you for having us. It's our pleasure.