The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Sex Work

Episode Date: November 25, 2022

Noam is still away. Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand discuss sex work with Kaytlin Bailey, is a sex worker rights activist, a writer and a comic. She is the Director of Communications at 'Decriminalize Sex Work' to help direct the growing support for sex-workers’ rights toward a national strategy to end the prohibition of prostitution in the United States.

This is Live from the Table, a Comedy Cellar-affiliated, loosely, podcast. Coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. Dan Natterman here. Noam Dorman still in Israel. He will not be Zooming because it is late and he's probably out with Coleman drinking again. But Coleman Hughes uses with him. I'm not exactly sure what they're doing there, but they are there

at the request of the government, I think. Correct. I'm not precisely sure for what purpose. In any case, he won't be here, but that means that there'll be a little less politics, perhaps. And maybe a little more fun. Maybe. Politics can be fun. I mean, they're not now, but in the past.

They can be. That was the voice of Caitlin Bailey, who's our guest today. But first, let me introduce Perrie Lashenbrand. She is our producer, as she has been called. There's been some controversy regarding that title. In any case, we have with us also Max, the sound man, because Nicole's not here. I don't know if she's at a family gathering in Binghamton. I don't know what she's doing. She's in Tennessee, I think.

What the hell is she doing there? Her family's there. I thought she's from Binghamton. She is originally, but her parents moved to Tennessee. Well, I don't know how that's going to work. Binghamton people in Tennessee doesn't seem like it's a good fit. But anyway, Maxwell, what's your last name? Marcus.

Max Marcus is our sound man today. It's normally Nicole Lyons, as you know. But I'm sure Max will do a fine job. And we have Caitlin Bailey, comic writer and sex workers rights advocate. And somebody I haven't seen in a while. Yeah, it's been a minute. I met her on a roof years ago at a, what's her name again? Kate Hendricks, right?

Yes, Kate Hendricks. I think that may have been my like first New York party. In any case, that was some time ago and then I don't know, and then she kind of went off on her own way and whatever. But here she is. And I'm going to talk about, well, first of all, before you were a sex workers' rights advocate, you were a sex worker. Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. I did that twice in my life. First, as a young person, you know, and like—

You mean two separate— Yeah, two separate stints, right? Oh, stints. Not like— No, not events, right? It'd be weird to build a whole career off a thing I did two times. I was going to say it must have been paid extremely well. Yeah, that's called fundraising. It's a whole different thing. But yeah, no, the first time I was a young person sort of rebelling against the George

Bush, W. Bush's abstinence-only sex education. At the time, I felt like, you know, I was being lied to about my body, and I pushed back against that and did, like, the worst thing, and it was fine. Then I went to college, then I worked in politics for a minute, got into stand-up comedy, and then I subsidized some careers, some years in comedy with sex work. Now, the most people think or many people think that a sex worker is necessarily mentally ill, drug addicted, that this is something that if you do it, that means there's something wrong with you. It's a perception that I have to admit I have or have had. Sure. I mean, there's some evidence there's something wrong with me. I did comedy for almost a year. Yeah, that's also evidence. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's definitely

trauma. But I think it's interesting that The stigma against sex work is very old and it impacts a lot of people. But this false narrative that we have between, you know, exchanging erotic labor and violent exploitation or, you know, trafficking, this is the kind of thing that gets in the way of sex workers sharing their stories and it's why people feel like i am an anomaly or unusual when you know all kinds of people have been doing this work for literally all of human history so you don't agree that being a sex worker necessarily means you're completely off the rails psychologically yeah absolutely not one can one can do it and be a normal person maybe maybe even have kids or what have you. Sex work has funded more careers, scholarships and arts, you know, entertainment, the arts than all of the grants and all of the world combined. And yet you'll grant me that I think it's fair to say no parent is bragging about their child, the sex worker.

Well, I mean, I think that has to do with stigma, right? You know, there was a time and there have been moments in history where sex workers were actually very high status, right? The priestess prostitutes of Mesopotamia or, you know, in the Aztec Empire, the, you know, in the House of Women of Tazil Teotl. So it's not, you know. I never expected Tazil Teotol. So it's not, you know, we can make different choices about what careers we choose to elevate. But, you know, I'm the daughter of a soldier. So, you know, we live in a country

that really celebrates lots of jobs that I think, you know, his mother did not want him joining the army. She was very disappointed in his choice. And I think that there are lots of examples of, you know, careers that people engage in that are not necessarily great for their mental or physical health, but it doesn't carry the same stigma and weight as sex work. And a lot of people do sex work, right, for their mental health, to spend more time with their kids, to, you know, do the things that make life worth living. So I think it's interesting the way that this stigma has evolved. Well, would you, if your daughter or son came to you and said that they wanted to do this, what would your reaction be?

Well, not another yet. But I would say that I would want my child in any kind of work that they were doing to be safe and to feel like they weren't operating under stigma and shame. You know, like we learn in 12-step programs that we're only as sick as our secrets. And so, you know, there's been a lot of hurt and a lot of human suffering from people trying to keep this a secret, right? Or people being shamed and stigmatized for it than for, you know, taking safety precautions and letting the folks in their life and their community know what it is that they're up

to. Now, so you're no longer doing sex work, is that right? No, I'm no longer doing sex work. I'm doing political fundraising, which is worse in every imaginable way. It's fundraising to destigmatize sex work. Correct, yeah. I started a nonprofit media organization called Old Pros, and so we are working to- Which I follow on Instagram, and that's at Old Pros? At Old Pros Online, yeah. I started a non-profit media organization called Old Pros, and so we are working to- Which I follow on Instagram, and that's at Old Pros?

At Old Pros Online, yeah. Okay. We send out a newsletter, we do a ton of content, and we're trying to change the status of sex workers in society. The legal status? The legal and social status. I don't think we're going to get good laws until we change the story about sex work, which is where we're focused at old pros. Well, I think we might. I mean, the way things are going, we have legal marijuana, at least we have legal gay marriage. So I think things are going in the direction that legal sex work can't be far behind.

Change is possible. You know, so and are you still doing comedy? I've got a one woman show in development that has some funny bits, but it's best advertised as a history lecture than a comedy show. And it's a history of sex work? Yeah, we cover 10,000 years of history from a sex worker's perspective in 75 minutes. Now, the one thing I think you'll—Peryl, do you have anything to— I mean, I have a lot. Oh, okay. The one thing you'll

grab me with regard to sex work, and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, is that you know, most jobs you get better at with experience. And one could make the argument

that at least for some people, the most innocent, inexperienced sex worker would be at a premium. Ew, Dan. No, that's not how it works. Wouldn't you rather if somebody going into the brothel or whatever to have somebody's first day on the job might be – you might pay extra for that. I mean I think you might be telling it on yourself a little bit, Dan. I understand that you don't like your women too experienced or confident. Well, first of all, innocence is not something that I invented as a fetish.

Sure. No, but I'm sorry. And also, you know, somebody that hasn't been with a multitude of men might certainly be appealing to many customers. Okay. Sorry, I've been quiet here just because you've been on a roll, but I spent a lot of time working in strip clubs

when I was in my 20s. And I think that there are a couple of things going on that really need to be sort of articulated here. Number one, it's so interesting that the stigma around sex workers and dancers and strip clubs is there's this real like angel sort of innocence and then dirty sort of whore other side. And this is a fantasy that was really created to cater to, I mean, in large part, a patriarchal structure that fetishizes.

If no one were here, he'd be. Well, he's welcome to join in. Nobody stopped him from coming, but it's true. I mean, you don't really want to fuck a young girl who doesn't know what she's doing. You just want that experience, right? The status of chastity, right? Like when women became property, right? Maintaining their value and maintaining the idea of paternity became very important. And then, you know, the Catholic Church, of course, doubled down on the Madonna whore complex and a justification.

Look, I'm not the one who invented the notion that a lot of guys like younger women. Yeah, they do. As somebody who studied this issue for over a decade now, I can assure you that there are lots of experienced sex workers of a mature age who are making lots of money. Well, no doubt. But I think that, what is it that an experienced sex worker, I mean, other than expertise in sexual acts, might bring to the table? Listening, emotional maturity, good stories, right? I mean, there's a connection there and there's a craft, psychological piece to all of this.

Like, I remember I was a cocktail waitress at a couple of different clubs and there was this strip clubs. Yeah. And there was such an interesting dynamic of the men who, you know, this is OK and this is good and this part is bad and it's so contrived because they, I mean, it's a whole fantasy that sex workers are fulfilling. They're psychologists, they're, you know, all of those things. They play many roles. Yeah.

Well, I guess they're mommies. I guess they can be depending on. Yeah. I mean, sometimes some guys probably just want to like go fuck and then leave. But I think that in large part. Well, there's only one of us who really can answer that question. I think defendant. Well, I guess theoretically I could answer that question, but I can only answer it as to what my needs would be.

Well, by all means, please answer it. Sounds like you like them young and dumb. My favorite sex worker would be somebody that's not a full-time sex worker, but somebody that's just making a little extra money on the side. Maybe for college. Could be for college. Could be for graduate school. Right.

Could be to pay for assisted living. Sure. Why do you say that? That's interesting i somebody that i perceive as a regular person that is just says to me you know i could use a little extra money uh for some reason that does it for me um you know uh so and it's not necessarily uncommon as opposed to to going to Las Vegas. As opposed to somebody that that's their gig. Somebody that's just a regular person, has a normal job, and decides they want to make a little extra, and maybe we met in a context where we, in a normal quote-unquote context,

and we became friends in a normal context, and she proposed to me that I could pay her for sex. That would be the most exciting thing. Really? For me. That's great. Sex work is like a lot of other transient kind of jobs, right? Like sex work is a lot like being a waitress, right?

Sometimes it's something that people do, right? Either on the side, right? To like pick up extra money. Some people make a career out of it. But it's, you know, it's all kinds of kinds. But the easiest way to lock somebody in into a truly devastating full time sex work experience where they don't have any other options is to arrest them for prostitution. And once that happens, then you often create a situation where people are trapped. Well, I certainly agree. No argument here that it should be legal. Of course, it shouldn't be a crime.

Of course not. It's what two people decide to do consensually, you know, shouldn't be a crime. And in addition to which, it's going to happen anyway. And they should have health insurance. The same way I feel about drug use, even harder drugs. I would make the same argument. If people need help, we should help them if they're addicts, but we shouldn't make them criminals. Yes.

But can we just get back to what we were talking about earlier? You said, or somebody was saying, was it you, Perrielle, that a sex worker can be a psychologist or all these things. In your experience as a sex worker, what kinds of things did men want from you other than just a sexual act? I, you know, to talk, to feel heard, to have their jokes laughed at by somebody who hasn't heard them a thousand times, you know, to feel like they were getting some attention. I think that that's a deep human need.

I mean, that, you know, that's interesting. That's not what we have in mind when we think of sex work, of course. What are you asking me to describe, Dan? I'm simply asking you, other than the sex act, you know, these people actually did want to talk to you? Yeah, to talk and to feel like they were being paid attention to and to have a safe space to share. I think therapist is a really good analogy. I think that we've really stigmatized therapy for men, right? I think men are often bringing a lot of, like, hurt feelings into spaces like strip clubs or with escorts. I mean, that's interesting because that's, you know,

that's news to me. And I've learned something because I had just assumed that sex work was about sex. Right. And that, you know, and that sometimes women would call themselves escorts, but that was just a nicer way of saying prostitute. It's also not about the sex. And like certainly, you know, escort and full service sex worker are often synonymous, right? Sex work is many things to many people, right? Foot fetish models are sex workers, only fans, strippers, porn performers, content creators.

So it's, you know, it's a big, broad umbrella term, but like, there's absolutely sex and it's the exchange of erotic labor, right? For money or something of value. Can I just interject, you had mentioned therapy is stigmatized for men. I just want to, because this is a comedy-related podcast, I have noticed an explosion of therapy jokes. There used to be nobody at therapy jokes. I don't know. I'm not saying Goleman was the first guy to do it,

but Gary Goleman I'm talking about, and he had a whole one-man show, a whole HBO special devoted called The Great Depression, devoted to his experience with depression. In any case, whether or not he triggered all this, I have noticed a lot of fucking therapy jokes. Are they good? That I never heard

10 years ago. It was 20 years ago. So I don't know if that says anything about our society, or it's just a trend in stand-up comedy. Well, I do think that men are going to therapy. Well, men, I'm saying men, both men and women are telling these jokes. So in general, it's-

Yeah, but I do think it's become less stigmatized. Mental health has become something that we talk about more freely. I mean, when I was growing up, you know, probably when you were growing up also, nobody talked about mental health, did they? I don't recall that, no. And, you know, I think the notion was if you went to see a therapist, you were crazy.

Right. Which may be. Well, you certainly have a problem. I don't know if crazy is a strong word, but you certainly, you know, you don't go to therapy if everything's going well, I don't think. But anyway, I don't know if this just means that more people are going to therapy or just, for some reason, therapy has become a topic that comics like to talk about. Well, it's interesting, isn't it?

I mean, I feel like it's, you know, a personal, interesting subject that really did... It is, but I didn't hear it ten years ago. Because it was more taboo ten years ago. It was more taboo, yeah. I certainly think that therapy has become more is, but I didn't hear it 10 years ago. Because it was more taboo 10 years ago. I certainly think that therapy has become more accessible, right? So it's in the popular for more, right? Easier to Google stuff. It's easier to find

access to these resources. You have apps now that you can text therapy. I mean, it's become part of the... We're living in a post-Sopranos world. I do wonder, or a post... What was the name of that movie with Robert De Niro? Analyze This. Yeah. That was already going back like 20 plus years.

Michael Phelps. In that big commercial that was all over the place where he was in that pool, that empty pool for talk space, which became very popular within the past 10 years. I wonder how these jokes would go over, say, in the Midwest and whether there's still a

discrepancy between us here in New York and, you know, Middle America, whether they've gotten, whether therapy has become more mainstream even in those communities. I don't know. Probably, I would imagine, maybe not as much as New York, but I would imagine probably a little bit. Can we go back to something though? Because I think that there are so many different kinds of sex workers and so many different ways in which people do that work. And I think that the quote unquote kind of prostitute that I think that you're- But when I hear the word sex worker,

I typically think of prostitution. Right. Sure. Which I think is where the stigma comes from too. It's like, it's easy to like stigmatize those girls who do that. Which is often wrapped up in like poverty, racism, substance abuse and lots of other issues. That's right.

100%. Sex work has always been the most visible form of sex work, right? Because you're talking about people that are street based or sort of in public space. Well, they're easy to villainize. Absolutely. Absolutely. Easy to demonize. But, you know, the stigma of sex work

is actually pretty ubiquitous. You know, there are legal strippers and legal porn performers that lose their kids or like get kicked out of nursing school a decade later or whose kids get kicked out of private school in California because they're on OnlyFans. Exactly. But the, you know, the criminalized segment of sex work is absolutely, you know, full service sex work. Well, when it comes to the decriminalization of prostitution, that's something we can all, that's something we can work toward and probably accomplish. Yeah, I hope so. When it comes to, I mean, other countries have accomplished it. New Zealand.

It's been done and obviously we can too. When it comes to how society views these things, that's a much tougher nut to crack. We've come pretty far with the gay rights movement. You know, I think that we can we can let go of a lot of old ideas that are no longer serving us. Right. And this idea that the worst thing that a person, especially a woman, can do is like give other people, you know, pleasure in exchange for money feels bananas to me when you look at so many of the other jobs that are out there. I think it's even more than that, though. I think it's about giving women autonomy over their bodies.

I mean, it's well, of course, there are male sex workers, too. OK, but yes, there are, of course. But I mean, I'm not referring to them. I'm talking about women, sex workers, all genders engage in this work. There are. Okay. But yes, there are, of course, but I mean, I'm not referring to them. I'm talking about women, sex workers, all genders engage in this work. Of course. I think,

but there, there is something really powerful about, I mean, it's the same thing with abortion because the way that we hate women, right? Because like, or phobia is actually the foundation of misogyny. Right.

And it's like our, our phobia that justifies erasing Mary Magdalene from the Christian church. It's horophobia that justifies policing the freedom of movement of women. It's horophobia that leads to the criminalization of abortion in the 1910s. This is a very old idea that has pushed women consistently out of public spaces for 6,000 years. And I don't think it's innate. I think it's a long con. And I think we've been really wrong about this for a really long time. I wouldn't rule out the innateness possibility that, you know, I think if your goal or if a goal

is to have prostitution, say, become like any other job where a father say, oh, you know, my daughter, you know, she's doing wonderful. She's just graduated school and now she's actually doing prostitution in New York. And to say it as if it's a normal job, I think we have, I don't think that's ever going to happen. I think that's just an innate thing. Maybe not in your family. And I think that's a loss. You know, I think that we can open ourselves up to the idea of like, I'm so proud of my daughter for raising her family, for doing what she needed to do to spend time with her kids. I'm so excited that my daughter is a hustler and is willing to do what needs to be done in order to keep her family together and to not stay with an abuser, which is a reason a lot of folks get into sex

work, right? Or to put herself through nursing school, or to like sex work opens so many doors and this old stigma of keeping people locked in terrible situations in the name of protecting them feels really wrong right especially when we're well I do think that you can't get away from the fact that at least internationally and I lived for a long time in Thailand, that a lot of girls, or maybe it's not fair to say a lot, but a segment of girls, especially very young girls,

do turn to sex work because they have no other choice. Absolutely. And so that seems like a little bit- Well, I think another option would be to try to give them another choice. Absolutely. And I think that we can talk about ways of expanding access to services and the building blocks that we all need to move our lives forward.

Right. Like domestic violence shelters are anti-trafficking. Right. Access to health care is anti-trafficking. Access to subsidized child care and education and housing. Like there are ways that we can reduce vulnerabilities across the board, but it has nothing to do with arresting people or doing raids on massage parlors

or any of this stuff that we do in the name of anti-trafficking. And I think it's really important that we're really clear that we're talking about exploitation because there's nothing unique about the sex industry that makes it more susceptible to these kinds of dynamics. Desperate people do desperate things and debase themselves. That's true across labor sectors,

right? According to the U.S. Department of Statistics own numbers, the Labor Department, the overwhelming majority of people who are violently trafficked in this country are trafficked into domestic labor, into mining, and into agriculture. But all of the federal resources goes towards sex trafficking, where we're not spending money rescuing people or getting folks out of bad situations and getting them resources. We're spending money surveilling, arresting them and saddling them with an arrest record that makes it harder for them to do anything else. It's bananas. Well, those are good points. But the one thing I will say is that is that with regard to sex trafficking, now you have, you know, women. I mean, we can all agree that sex against one's will is probably, I mean, arguably among the worst things that can happen.

Absolutely. Rape is bad. We can all. You know, domestic labor against one's will, unpleasant though it might be. I'm sorry. This is having. Okay. Well, feel free to feel free to feel free to discuss it. Violent exploitation is violent exploitation, right? People are exposed to chemicals.

I mean, my father just passed away because of exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam. We're doing horrific things to people that have real long term like people. All of labor exists on a spectrum of choice, circumstance and coercion. Right. There are people who would rather be doing other things. Right. Where sex work is the best of bad options. And there are also people who are crew ships is also right. The best of bad options for comedians. Right. We've all done things that don't feel good, right, to get our goals met. And so I think it's

more important for us to be having a conversation about exploitation than pretending that there's some magic spell around sex that makes... It's like prostitution has been a symbol of exploitation for so long we've made them we've made it synonymous and we've blinded ourselves to the very real very violent exploitation that happens across labor sectors and we're arresting the wrong people we're arresting the wrong people um i i we're doing it in the name of anti-trafficking, but that doesn't make it so. I remember when I was in my 20s and I'd moved to LA to write comedy and I started writing, I started interviewing and Heidi Fleiss was one of the first people I got to interview. And it was so eye opening.

I mean, I don't know if you know that much about her. Well, I remember Heidi Fleiss, sure. She was brilliant. She was so smart and so interesting. And her father was a doctor and she played chess and they were Jewish. And it was like all of these stereotypes that you'd been taught your whole life. And, you know, those girls and a lot of girls are making, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a day. And so I think the spectrum between like the young girls in who are like babies, essentially in fucking Thailand at like nine years old and younger toward those girls who are getting flown across the world on like private jets. All right, get to the point. Well, there is no point. I'm just saying like, I think that the spectrum that we're talking about is so huge. Would you do an OnlyFans account if you felt you could make a good income from it?

That's an interesting question. I think I would. The answer is, I think what I brought up before is that... Nobody's interested in me. Nobody's interested in me either. I mean, in my 20s, maybe. I think you're both underselling yourself.

Thank you. I'm no Mateo. Well, maybe that's the key to our Patreon, Dan. No, you can't, because, you know, like that mom in California started it, and her kids got kicked out of school. Yep. There's still, like, that

real stigma. Well, putting that aside. But you can't put that aside. I'm putting it aside. I can if it's my hypothetical. And I'm saying putting that aside. But you can't put that aside. I'm putting it aside. I can if it's my hypothetical. And I'm saying putting that aside. Yeah. Would you feel... Stigma. Would you... Yeah, I'm saying... I'm not worried about a stigma for myself. I'm just saying... Assuming

there's no repercussions. Having your kids bullied, right? Losing out on jobs. Not being approved for leases. Like, there's real material consequences. But putting that aside, would you have no problem showing your body for money? Of course. On OnlyFans?

I can't imagine why I would. Okay. I mean, although I do think that it's important to recognize that, you know, you are operating in a patriarchal structure. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that. If OnlyFans is particularly, I think, friendly toward the content creators, toward the women.

Fine, but nevertheless, you're still operating in and under a patriarchal structure. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Well, I'll give you an example, right? So doing OnlyFans work is perfectly legal, right? No one's breaking any laws. You're allowed to masturbate in the privacy of your own home and film it if you want to. But many OnlyFans creators have their bank accounts seized.

They're not allowed to engage in transactions because we are trying to protect these people for their own good by making it harder for them to engage in this work that we really want to be bad for them that millions of people choose to engage in. Their Instagrams then get shut down. I mean, there are all sorts of ramifications for doing that kind of work. So it's protection and the name, you know, yeah. Quote quote unquote. It is interesting that there's a couple of comedians that we know or that I know that that are on OnlyFans.

Do you do you think there's any link between and you yourself were a sex worker in a comic? Is this a more for less as a comic? Is this? Yeah, well, you know, is this is do you see a connection between the world of comedy and the world of sex work? I think that both comedians and sex workers sort of exist in like similar, like archetypal places, if that makes sense. Like we play similar roles at court, right? Like the jester, the courtesan, right? We're both violating social rules in exchange for you know social liberties or whatever but it's precarious right like you're so bucking social convention yeah which makes you

both more vulnerable and also you have more freedom than people that are choosing to you know stay within the constraints right yeah you had a really good story about your vagina that I read oh thank you I'm very proud will you tell us? no you can read it it's on your website right?

I think so we're doing a ton of different kinds of storytelling now we have a show coming up November 30th the old prose show at caveat. This is, this is not just you. This is, yeah, this is multiple, this is sex worker performers of multiple varieties. We've got comics, we have storytellers, we have musicians, we have burlesque performers, you know, it's a, you know, kind of a throwback to the vaudeville

days, which is good. And it's a, you know, a fundraiser for old prose. We'll have a lot of our talking points there, um, and ways, different ways of thinking about this very thing. What are you doing now as far as changing the laws are concerned? You know, there's lobbying, there's calling congressmen and there's those sorts of things. As far as reducing the stigma, what are you, what are you doing to accomplish that? We're trying to tell different sex worker stories stories and we found a really powerful lever of that is digging into the archives and finding old prose from history, right?

You know, madams really settled the West in this country. Sex workers have been builders and contributors to the communities they've been a part of for the whole time, right? We have this very narrow, you know, image in our head

of what we've been told a sex worker is that's mostly informed by this sort of like white slave panic of the early 19th century. But in fact, sex workers have been business owners, sex workers have been investors, sex workers have been incubators. We wouldn't have jazz without the brothels of New Orleans. And I think it's important to rewrite sex workers as major contributors back into the historic narrative. Do you think sex workers are good for the institution of marriage and family? I think sex workers are good for society. And I think marriage is questionable.

Marriage is questionable. Net good or not. There's a mixed bag. But a lot of married men, I assume, were customers, I'm guessing. Yeah, married men are certainly well represented among... And do you think that it's good for their, now you don't like marriage perhaps as an institution to begin with, but. I mean, I like my husband. Okay, so yeah, you're engaging in marriage.

Yeah, correct. And if your husband wanted to see a sex worker, what would your reaction be? We've had that conversation many times. He doesn't like that environment, like sex work is not for him. He really wants us to decriminalize it though so that he can get a massage in peace um so that would be you know well an erotic massage

no he keeps going to get try to get a massage a regular legit massage because sex work is illicit right they don't openly advertise it so he finds himself you know a little too far in uh but that's okay there's google translate and that those problems so how to set sex we're good for society do you feel it's because it's a release for people that that can't find sex other way it's absolutely a release right it's absolutely you know i think more connection is good right i think sex workers hold space for hard feelings i think that sex workers um in addition to you know know, their own contributions, right, their own families that they're raising, the businesses that they're starting, what they give back into the community with the resources that they bring in from sex work. I think that

having a society where sex workers are accessible and not stigmatized and not shamed and not hunted is a better world. And I think we've seen it over and over again of like what's possible when sex workers are able to create their own communities. I will say this for myself, speaking for me, I don't find that kind of sex particularly satisfying because I don't feel that the woman wants to be there. Sure. Sorry that that's been your experience. Well, so you're saying the woman might want to be there. I'm saying there are better performers. Well, but I know it's a performance because I'm paying money.

So that all kind of kills the whole thing. So you're saying nobody wants to be there? No, lots of people feel called to this work, right? Lots of people think of themselves as healers, right? Like, you know, it seems strange to me that you'd be plagued by the, like, does my sex worker want to be here? It's similar to the fear

of, like, does my therapist want to be here? Right? And it's like... Well, no, because I like, because I think one of the pleasures of sex is that you know that the other person is into it, and you know you're turning them on, and then you know they want to be there, because that's satisfying to your ego. It's not just a physical thing, you know.

It's a connection. Yes, but if you're paying for that connection, it's not really a connection. Now, as far as my therapist is concerned, you know, that's a bit, I think, different because... Maybe you should start trying to fuck your therapist. Yeah. I think there's a difference there because I don there because it's not exciting to me to have somebody that wants to listen to my problems.

It's not exciting to me to have somebody that wants to check my pulse or my cholesterol levels. That's not exciting. What is exciting to me is that a woman thinks I'm sexy and wants to be there. So that's exciting. Yeah, I get it. You know, when people come to sex workers for different reasons, right? I'm sure. I'm just speaking for me.

And I assume a lot of people that that's not the kind of sex that I think is particularly interesting for me. Then, you know, there's no, nobody is suggesting that we make sex work mandatory, either as a provider or, you know, as from a client side. Well, that might explain why to me somebody that's not really a sex worker but has decided, I like Dan. I don't want to be his girlfriend necessarily, but I like him enough to charge him enough to enough to maybe charge him when I wouldn't charge literally everybody. But you want a discount? Right. No, no, no, no. I'm saying if somebody is not doing it with everybody,

then perhaps I have at least, I'm somewhat interesting to this person because I'm on a restricted client list, if you will. So you want to be on the VIP list. I'm saying that's more interesting to me. If I have to... Branding choices that have been made, I'm confident that's more interesting to me. If I have to... Branding choices that have been made, I'm confident that this is available to you.

Well, no, but it is available if I find somebody that's like, for example, there was a person that worked here in the Comedy Cellar environment. Yeah. You're saying there is... That wasn't being paid enough, it sounds like. No, after she had left, we kept in touch, and she offered

that to me. Yeah. And did you take her up on it? Yeah. Yeah. And how was it? Quite enjoyable. Okay. Yeah.

So this is interesting. So if now your perception is changing that some sex workers do actually want to be there, maybe this opens up a whole new world. Right. Sex therapist. Somebody who's maybe made a career out of, you know, trying to... I don't know.

I think it's... Well, you'll never know for sure. I mean, Caitlin, I guess you were, you were, I imagine, skilled in creating the illusion that you were into the... Did you accept literally everybody that wanted to come see you? I mean, I had a screening process,

as, you know, most sex workers do. It's how we keep ourselves safe, right? But it really had more to do with like, is this person listening and like, you know, willing to, you know, go through the process I've set up to demonstrate respect for my boundaries more than it had to do with like, do I find this person interesting or attractive or compelling in some way? But were there times that you did and you absolutely looked forward to them? Yeah, absolutely. I've also had shifts that I really enjoyed as a waitress.

Overall, it was a horrific experience. Waiting tables. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine waiting tables. I can tell you that. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I waited tables for years.

I didn't have that experience. People feel differently about different things, right? We all have our own boundaries. Actually kind of liked being a waitress. Yeah, just because I didn't share that experience doesn't mean it's not true. I enjoyed being an escort, right? I enjoyed being a professional companion. But were there clients that you're like, oh, this guy is horrific.

He's smelly or whatever. He's physically horrific. How big a role did that play in your ability to enjoy the situation? That's definitely happened. But I've also had tables that sent me in fat crying. And I've had, you know, my mom is an interior designer and has like had clients that, you know, were grading afterwards. Like anyone in sales or public facing, like we've all had that. I think it's this, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that part of what Caitlin's saying is that like, I think across industry, you can have those experience.

You can have a client that is fascinating and sexy and interesting, and you can have one who's a nightmare. And so you, whether or not it's sex work or any other kinds of work, you can. And I exerted the same, you know, I came to this work with an immense amount of privilege both times that I was doing it. And so I was able to exert whatever my preferences were in the same way that like, you know, a graphic designer doesn't take every client, right? Like, you know, it's you're making choices.

What works for you? What works for my schedule? What where am I at on the did I make rent or not this month? Well, how did you ensure that your customer was a safe person to be with? That's a great question. You know, and sex workers have built these structures over time, and it's a lot easier if we're able to maintain those, right? So when I was working, I went to a message board. This is, you know, sort of pre-Fosta Sesta days. And I put up an- Pre-what days?

It's a federal law that was passed in 2018 that tried to erase sex work from the internet and literally destroyed all of these spaces that sex workers had created to do exactly this, to screen clients and to share information and keep each other safe. And it was done in the name of anti-trafficking. Amy Schumer was a big spokesperson

for the SESTA-FOSTA campaign. But anyway, before that law, I posted an ad, right, with an email address that I created, asking clients to give me their real name and industry references of other people in the community that they'd seen. Then I would call or contact those people, right, give them this guy's name and email address, and they would either say, yes, you know, I checked, I've seen him, or no, I haven't, or I don't remember, or they wouldn't get back to me, right? But, you know, I usually, nine out of 10 times, you get somebody that was able to confirm a reference. And if they didn't say anything

bad happened, then that's a... But what if it was somebody that's new to that sort of thing? They'd have to go to an agency. I didn't see people that had never seen someone else before. I didn't want to be the person that was like freshly setting the expectations. Right. There was a culture, right, like culture of protection, right, culture of condom use, culture of explicitly sort of articulating boundaries. Right. Other people can sort of set that up and, you know, help people understand that they're stepping into a professional environment. Max Marcus, I want to talk to you for just a brief second. Okay. You know, we try to engage Nicole, but she doesn't want nothing to do with it. Yeah. So I don't know if you're of a similar mind. But how are you enjoying this discussion?

I think it's great. Yeah. And what have you learned? And what will you take with you as you go forward in life? I learned about the screening process. I have not heard that specific thing. Now, Max Marcus, I don't know if he's ever been to a hooker or not, but you're not going to throw him out. I mean, he seems so sweet and innocent.

I mean, it depends on how his first email comes across. You know, U-ups go directly to trash. I don't have that kind of time. What's a U-up? Oh, U-up. U-up, right, yeah. Oh, okay. No, sir. you up you up right yeah oh okay um yeah i i suppose um i think that there is a really important

part of this that um which you brought up which is that it's it's dangerous yeah it's really dangerous work in large part and to have the luxury of to be able to screen people is something that not a lot of girls have every sex sex worker at every level engages this. Even street-based sex workers trade information with one another. They keep and circulate bad date lists, right, in the 80s and 90s. They did it with zines. Here there are entire websites that are password protected that are regional and national that are kept by sex workers

in order to keep each other safe. But all of that is made more complicated by the criminalized nature of our work, right? It's hard to advertise these, the safety precautions. But when you were, was it, was, were you doing this via the internet when you were starting? Yeah. And did you ask to see a picture or? I asked to see a picture ID before I crossed a threshold, right? So before you came into my hotel room or I stepped into, you know, like your space, I needed to see a picture of your ID to make sure that the person that I screened is who you think. Is there anything about the picture that would have sent you running in the other direction? I mean, I assume a swastika tattoo on the forehead might have done

that. Yeah, probably. Something over the top, but. I think the lesson of sex work and like the advice that everyone gives to. What about, what about pay us?as what about a hasid what about a hasidic guy named gershom mendelbaum i mean i started working in north carolina so that wasn't you know like my initial experience but i didn't you know i didn't discriminate i know well i'm just wondering if you if you would assume that gershom mendelbaum is less likely to to to to be violent but maybe he would maybe he wouldn't yeah no yeah i know enough about violence to know that, you know, that's all kinds of people too. When you, do you discuss this openly with your mother?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, you know, I'm the founder and executive director of a sex worker rights organization. So it's definitely not a secret. Have you ever talked to her openly about your experiences as a sex worker? Like, oh, you know, there's one client he came in, he wanted a blowjob or whatever. I mean, like have those kinds of discussions.

I've never had a sit down conversation about like a day in the life at any other job that I've had. But you might. I mean, it's not inconceivable. No, it's not inconceivable. And that's one of the, you know, one of the future that we are working towards is a future where sex workers are free to contribute their wisdom, right, to the communities that they're already in, right? Like, you know, being able, I'm sure that if I ever have children, there will be dating advice of like, ah, don't do this, or like, you know, don't, you know, consider doing this, safety precautions or whatever wisdom gleaned, right,

that I picked up as a sex worker that I hope to be able to freely and... Including the actual techniques of sex. Would you freely share that with each other? I'm having a hard time envisioning a like, I don't know, Kegel conversation, but like, yeah, if it comes up, I guess, you know. And we touched on this earlier, but had there been a time when somebody,

you're like, oh my God, there's somebody so hot, so sexy that you're like, I can't believe I get paid for this this is you know yeah definitely occasionally i've had a couple of sessions where i was the paid provider and the service that was happening was they gave me a massage the whole time so that felt pretty surreal and special and you know nice what about female clients um i didn't have female clients, but there are female clients. You know, there are male providers. There are, you know, again, people of all genders, right? I mean, this is something we had Christina Hutchinson on the show.

I don't know. It was probably before the pandemic. But no one paid for her to go to a male prostitute. This was before my time. Was that before you? Was it? Okay. I definitely would have heard that.

But as a general matter, there is... How was it? She seemed to enjoy it. Okay. They had a long discussion first. But, I mean, I think it's clear that... Now, do you see this as a societal thing or as a natural thing that most customers are men?

I don't know. A little column A, a little column B. You know, it's hard to imagine a society where men don't have most of the money, right? So that's certainly a part of it. But there are certainly, you know, women, cisgendered, straight women pay hot men uh and do sex work but you will agree that that um sexual sexuality in for men and women is generally quite different men are more likely to want anonymous or sex outside of a relationship is more of a man a male hold ourselves a lot of stories about what's naturally true about sex that is like not grounded in reality. And if gender norms were so fucking natural, then they wouldn't have had to be so violently enforced this whole time.

I don't disagree with that, but also... You don't disagree with me or with Caitlin? With Caitlin, that if gender norms were so normal that they wouldn't have to have been so violently instated. But you know I think that. But my... But to... However, that when that website got my, but to, however, that when that website got busted and like- The Ashley Madison.

Yeah, Ashley Madison. Do you remember that? Yeah, vaguely. And like every single client on there was like a straight cis man. So like, I guess I also agree with you. Do you know, do you remember what Ashley Madison? Yeah, like, so the women were,

who were, there were no women on the site. I mean, it was like a site if you wanted to cheat on your spouse. Right. For men that wanted to cheat and women that wanted to cheat. Yeah, but all of the people who were, I don't know if they were. Not to say that women aren't cheating, but they're probably not going to a website. Or they're cheating with people they know and feel, have a connection to. Sure.

Whereas a man would cheat with anybody that's hot. Going to a party or, you know. There are other ways to get there. But they were hiring women, weren't they? I guess so. I don't remember the details of Ashley Madison, but I do remember the takeaway of like, oh, this is a site that advertised that it's people, people of different genders mixing together.

And it's 99.9% dudes yelling at each other. All the clients almost exclusively were men. Right. So to your point. Yeah. I mean, I do think there are some natural differences. I can't say with certitude. There are natural differences, too.

And I think, you know, I sort of cover this in the beginning of Whore's Eye View, right? So like, you know. What's Whore's Eye View? It's the one-woman show covering the 10 million years. Okay? It's the one woman show covering the years of that. OK, it's your one woman show. Yeah. And so, you know, you know, talking like, you know, human women, right, with uteruses have the most dramatic menses of any mammal, right?

We bleed at a level that other mammals just don't. And so that creates an iron deficiency that we don't share with other species. So like women needed meat in a way that like men just don't because they don't have that loss every month at the same time because of the unique needs of our own infants and children, it's that much harder for women to hunt, right? And so it does create this kind of like,

you know, incentive-ness that I think that the first exchange is like sex for meat, you know? And I think that's very old and probably predates us as a species, but feels woven in to, you know, biological reality. So, whore's eye view, this is something, this is, maybe you discussed this already, but is this already playing or you're currently you currently workshopping it? I'm workshopping it. We just had our last reading this year. It'll be back on its feet

again next year. Check out oldprosonline.org. And you'll be performing this starting in New York City? Yeah, I've done readings all over the country because I take it with me. We go to conferences, we go to colleges, and we go about. I just came back from Austin. Keep it weird. I take it with me. And so we, you know, we go to conferences, we go to colleges and we go, you know, uh, about,

uh, I just came back from, from Austin. So keep it weird. Yeah. That's what they say about Austin. What about a book? This sounds like a fascinating topic for a book.

I'm doing a podcast. I'm doing the show. I love everyone's content suggestions, but like what I'm choosing to do is talking to microphones about it. And this will be a book, but I, but I'm not right. And this will focus most, I mean, I would imagine there have been books. Of course.

About the history of this. Thank you. So Amber Rose also really helped, I think, destigmatize a lot of this too in the past 10 years. You know, she does her slut walk in LA. Who's Amber Rose again? She's, I think she's a musician and a model. And she dated Kanye West back in the day,

which I think propelled her even a bit further into stardom. But I mean, I'm going back like 10 years. Oh, fuck my back, sorry. I just move funny. I did something at the gym. And my back is... I am out of commission sex-wise probably for the next couple of days. Probably wouldn't have had it anyway.

You never know. But I go hard at the gym. You don't get a body like this, you know. Oh, fuck, I can't stand up. Never mind. The point is planks. Pl can't stand up. Never mind. The point is planks. Planks was what did it for me. Those are intense.

Yeah. There's this eight-minute plank workout that I got on YouTube. And this thing... A lot of planks. It's eight minutes, but you change positions. Okay. And I can't do the whole eight minutes, so I'm working up to that. That's a long time, isn't it?

It's a fucking long time, yeah. Wait, one minute's a long time. How long can you do? Well, you do 30 seconds per plank. You do plank on your elbows and then a plank on your side and then a plank where you bring your knees to your chest and so on and so forth.

You're showing me Amber Rose. So I had to take some 30 second break. This looks familiar. I guess so. She's pretty interesting. So she started a slut walk in LA. I don't remember how many years ago. Yeah. Which I think is a powerful narrative shift.

Right? Because it's like... 23 million followers on Instagram. Holy shit. I'm not quite at 23 million followers on instagram oh shit i'm i'm i'm not quite at 23 million you know but uh well thanks for lending your platform to this important issue i really appreciate it well thank oh are we done uh you know that sounded like a wrap-up you're talking about your platform and i want to you know oh well yeah you know i mean look it's certainly it's well it's uh it's not out of altruism,

it's out of you're an interesting guest to have. Thank you, I appreciate that. You know, certainly, I mean, we could have had

another lawyer on or something that no one likes, you know, but somebody that dig into policy, right? That's about somebody

that's a comic and, so, comedy is over for you. No, I mean, you know, I think being a comic is a lot more like being a Marine than being a sex worker, you know, like once a comic, comic kind of thing.

But, you know, it's a superpower I bring with me wherever I go, right? Whether it's the show or whether it's media appearances or talking to donors or legislators. Like, if you can make people laugh, you can make people listen. But it's certainly not my 100% focus. I am not. And sex work, you have, you ruled that out as a potentially something to go back to? I, you know, I think it's important to never say never, you know, you don't want to, you don't want to attempt fate, but, uh, it is certainly not the most efficient use of my time right now. Well, uh, what if somebody offered you a cool 50 K? Yeah, that would put them in a

donor class and we have a system for that, but no blowjobs included at that level. Well, what level might a blowjob be included at? I'm not going to start negotiating. Oh, no, not for me. I don't have that kind of money to throw around. What's the whole thing in Jeopardy?

It doesn't work, you know. I'm not saying donating to your cause. I'm saying on the side, if somebody said to you, you know, 50 grand. Totally. And what I'm saying is that, like, I'm not available for that right now, but thank you so much for offering me some water. Oh, because I think Perrielle's available for 50 grand. I think I'm available for 50 grand.

Great. But anyway, what else? Why does it put the whole thing in jeopardy, though, if the whole point is to de-stigmatize all of this? Right, because it creates a vulnerability. It gives the people that you're in the room with a reason to dismiss you, right? Because of whorephobia, right? We're operating in an environment that deeply stigmatizes dismiss you, right? Because of, because of whorephobia, right? We're operating

in an environment that deeply stigmatizes this work, right? So, you know, if you become the girl that's like, I don't know, fucking all of the donors or the legislators or the whatever it is, then they use the same system and apparatus of, you know, whorephobia to push you out of the room. So it's, for me, it's important for the brand that we're trying to build, the rooms that we're trying to operate in, and also my own marriage to maintain those boundaries very strictly.

And that has served me well. I wish it was different. I wish we could be freer with erotic energy. I really do. But we can't. You use the term horophobia. Now, of course, you know, phobia generally means fear.

It doesn't, I mean. Like homophobia. Yeah, but homophobia doesn't necessarily mean fear. It usually means fear. The violence usually comes from a place of fear. Well, do you feel people fear prostitutes or they just dismiss them? No, I think they fear them. I think they're afraid of what it would mean to let go of this very old stigma.

But I think they fear women, women in power, women in power and women giving women autonomy of course, the ability to leave. Right. But women in power to the extent that your average prostitute has any power because many of them are exploited by pimps and you know, they're, they're sex workers have that like people that are trapped in domestic violence situations don't have is the ability, the wherewithal to get resources to leave. Right. Right. By making yourself available. Right. To too many men to get the resources that you need. Right. To exchange cash instead of, I don't know, shelter. Right. I think that that is a little bit an existential threat to, you know, the otherwise these coercive control relationships where people are trapped. I think that's why in most abusive relationships, whether the woman is ever engaged in any kind of sex work or not, right, the guy calls her a whore. Like it seems to be this like,

you know, sort of primal, primal fear. Well, I mean, the word whore has come to mean anybody that's promiscuous. Also, you also just defined patriarchy. How did I do that? Well, exactly what you just said was the definition of patriarchy. What did I just say? I mean, I don't remember verbatim. What did you just say when you literally just said the problem is? I said that, what did I say? I said that are people afraid of it or are people

dismissing it? Because most women in that situation don't have any power How canophobia be about being afraid of powerful women? I know some women I guess do have power but I'm just saying many I don't know what percentage don't have power

but some large I would imagine percentage don't have power, but some large, I would imagine, percentage don't, especially... But the structure is, whether a few women have power or not is irrelevant to the fact that the structure under which we're operating... I'm sure the men are the biggest, you know, if they were so afraid of it. We're, we meaning men, are responsible for its existence because we're 99% of the customers. So we're not too afraid of it to utilize it. No, but you're also, you know, 95% of the people who are committing violence against women. Yeah. percent of the people who are committing violence against women, like rape and domestic violence

and murder is in large. But she's saying where men are afraid. Yeah. Of prostitutes. And I'm saying men are afraid of the women they're killing. That's why they're killing. Right there. That are the men that are going to prostitutes afraid of the prostitutes? I think it depends. I think that a lot of men that see sex workers are afraid of a future where those sex workers have more negotiating power because they are not suffering under criminalization. I think that that is a real fear. They're not like actually afraid that the sex worker they're going to is going – They're not afraid of Ashley. Right, exactly. But they're afraid of – Right, exactly. But, you know, if anything, I think legalization doesn't seem to make it make the prices any higher or make it more difficult.

But it's a power dynamic also. It increases the negotiating power of the provider. Right. When you are not being hunted by the is when you have no legal recourse you can go and have sex with a prostitute and be like you know what fuck you i'm leaving i'm not gonna pay you right and and what what can she do she can't call the police or uh even worse uh we pay law enforcement officers to uh you know engage the services of a sex worker and then not pay them and arrest them instead, which feels like extra bad. What is perhaps the best country? Is there a country in the world where you look at it

and say, this is where we want to be? And if we were where they are, I would be satisfied. The closest country, right? They don't do it perfect, but it's pretty good. New Zealand decriminalized sex work in 2003. And so as an individual proprietor, right, you can just engage in sex work. You don't need a license. You don't need to fill out any paperwork.

But if you have more than three or four people working for you, then you have to apply for a license. There are a lot of health code laws that, like, empower the sex worker to, you know, negotiate for safe sex. The penalties are not criminal, right? They're fee-based right so what that often allows is like someone would say to a sex worker like well i don't want to use a condom and so the sex worker is like cool pay the thousand dollar fine dude like that's not you know and so that that helps again increase the negotiating power of sex workers without creating that's an example of legalization and so like i am i am I am pro sex worker, but I'm kind of anti brothel.

And I think Nevada is actually the best example of why Nevada is the only state in the country with legal regulated prostitution. And it has the highest arrest rate per capita for prostitution in the country, because the only way to work legally is to register, right, as a legally licensed prostitute that becomes subpoenable about you for the rest of your life. You can imagine how this plays out in child custody cases. You have to be hired by a brothel. And as a legally licensed prostitute working at that brothel, you are not allowed to leave the premises of that brothel and go to a bar or go to the movie or do anything else. You are contained and controlled by this truly Byzantine. It's a lot of local.

That is so fucked up. It's a lot of, right? Like that is so fucked up. It's so fucked up. And so legalization regulation, right? Imposing like licensing schemes. We do it in the name of like protecting. But what we're doing is you, you force sex workers into what becomes a deeply exploitative situation.

So the brothels in Holland are better because they don't have like the long history of puritanical nonsense that we have. But it's a similar system that like, you can't work on your own, on your own terms in legalized, regulated spaces. That seems to be a really important differentiation that like I certainly was not aware of decriminalizing and legalization. That's like pretty major. Legalization of decriminalizing and legalization.

That's like pretty major. Legalization really only benefits the brothel owners, right? It's not a system that we want. Well, it is safer. Removing criminal penalties. It's not safer for the people who are getting arrested. It's not safer for the moms who are losing their kids. If you are working within the system at a brothel that is registered,

I'd imagine that's safer, certainly. It's not better than working on your own where you're able to keep more of your money and not be subjected to the dumb boss who you are subjected to. God forbid you should let women be in charge of their own money. The boss does provide some, like if somebody's being violent. They pay the licensing fees, right? They pay the vice tax But the brothel owner I would imagine if you're in a brothel, you're in a

place where if there's a problem you call for help What if we don't want to be in a place that if there's a problem There's always going to be the possibility of a problem What if we hire our own security? Oh, you could do that.

Yeah, okay. You could do that, but I'm saying the brothel. Now is a way worse federal charge, right? Because now not only are you engaged in misdemeanor prostitution, but if you have two people working together, now that's an operation. Yeah, it's like what if I don't want to go to a fucking brothel? I'm just saying the brothel provides some benefits. Maybe you don't want them.

This is patriarchy. I don't care about a brothel or not a brothel. I'm saying the brothel does provide something to you. I mean, it literally operates like a prison, though, right? Like protection from what? Well, if the brothel owner,

a guy like Dennis Hoff, who's a big guy, the late Dennis Hoff. Yeah,is hoff was accused of sexually assaulting his well maybe that was a bad example yeah like you know it's like you know what i mean yeah when you concentrate power in one dumb dude bad things happen that's our whole point just because somebody has like enough money to like pay licensing doesn't mean that they're a good steward but i'm saying you're you if you're in a brothel then you're in a place where you're not alone. Sure, but you're in a prison or a mental institution.

Is it a prison where you're not allowed on? I mean, I don't know. You talk about a prison. I don't know about any of the laws regarding you can't leave and this and that. Well, Kingman just said you can't leave. Well, it's hard to believe. You literally cannot leave the whole day.

You can't quit. It combines everything that's about being a waitress right now. You're absolutely allowed to quit. Right. This is not this is not slavery. Right. But you you know, you have to pay money to get the license, the local sheriff. You have to pay for the mandatory STI test.

You pay room and board. Right. So you walk through the door at a deficit. Right. So you have to work to get yourself out of debt. Right. walk through the door at a deficit, right? So you have to work to get yourself out of debt, right? So that's the system of brothels that is old and bad and can, you know, spiral relatively quickly into bad outcomes, right? So that's the situation you're walking into. And once your shift is over, or even like throughout your shift as a theoretical

independent contractor, you can't just like go to the CVS or like go to the bar because as a legally licensed prostitute, according to the laws of Nevada, right, when you leave that place, if you come back, you have to do another mandatory STI test because they're trying to prevent infection. They don't want you working in the area. So they treat you right like a commodity to control. Right. But sex workers are not commodities. We are people. We are service providers. Many of us are independent contractors. And although sex work is work, it is also sex. And living in a world that polices prostitution is living in a world, right, where you've empowered, right, the state essentially to govern where people go, who they fuck, why, what they wear, all of the auxiliary surveillance.

Now, are you listening to all this? Well, I'm looking at the Nevada laws. He doesn't believe me. The problem is that I'm trying to put together a fun little game to end with. And so I was slightly distracted about famous fictional prostitutes. Oh, yes. I mean, I can tell you about my favorite fictional prostitutes. Oh, I have, oh, yes. Would you, can I tell, I mean, I can tell you about my favorite fictional prostitutes.

Well, I thought I would name one and you try to guess where they're from. Okay, all right, let's try. Famous fictional prostitutes. Belle Watling. Belle Watling. New Orleans. What about, no, no, but what, what, what work? Belle Watling was played by Mae West

and was based on a real sex worker called Belle Breezing. No, she's from Lexington, Kentucky. Excuse me. Lulu White. She was... The character that Mae West played, who I believe is Belle Watson,

is based on a courtesan named Lulu White who is from New Orleans. And I think she's from New Orleans in the film. Well, Belle Watling was in Gone with the Wind. Oh, yes. She was based on Belle Breezing. She was played by Ona Munson. From Lexington, Kentucky.

Well, I don't know who she was based on. She was based on Belle Breezing. From the film and book Gone with the Wind and was a good friend of Red Butler. Yes, yes. Now it's all coming back to me. I like Mae West. She ended up,

but Mae West was not Belle Wadling. I know. But I feel like we were just talking about this really important thing and you completely sidetracked us with this tic-tac-toe prostitute game. Mole Flanders. Mole Flanders.

Mole, oh gosh. Mole. Oh, gosh. I want to say Midwest, but I don't, but I don't actually, I don't have a good picture in my head of who this is. Mole Flanders is from the book Mole Flanders. Oh, well, I missed that one. And by Daniel Defoe. Sure. And I guess she was a prostitute because she's in the Wikipedia.

Did you come with his favorite? No, I didn't because it came to me at the last minute. My favorite sex worker from history. Let's do that. I should have, but sometimes inspiration hits you when you least expect it.

I feel like it's really important. Like Archimedes in the bathtub. And he discovered buoyancy. And figured out how to tell of something. Okay, famous prostitutes from history. These are real ones, not fictional. These are real women.

Phryne from ancient Athens, ancient Greece. F-R-I-N-Y? P-H-R-Y-N-E. Wow. Little Toad, that was her nickname. But she was born in Thebes, became a very famous courtesan. And so most of her money was made

entertaining the wealthy citizens of Athens. But this is at a time where we were still worshiping some of the fertility temples. And so the city-state of Athens would commission her a few times a year to embody the goddess Aphrodite and dive naked into the Aegean Sea for these sort of rituals that they would do. This is the kind of world we need to be living in. I'm telling you, right? So anyway, she would dive into the sea and then the citizens of Athens would gather and they'd be like, that's why we pay taxes.

And it all makes sense. But anyway, she got pretty high on her horse. She had a reputation for charging clients based on how she felt about them, which resulted in some political kerfuffles. That's what I would do. Yeah, there was one king that approached her at a party and was like, you know,

it shames me that you would charge so much. And she said, well, if I took a cent less, it would be I who was shamed. So here we stand. That fought Franny with something else with the repartee. She was fucking great. I mean, there have been so many sex worker comics. Gypsy Rose Lee, Mae West.

I mean, like, there's a long legacy. Was Mae West a sex worker in life? No, she played one on TV. So we just did an episode about her. But anyway, so Friany, you know, was this, like, larger-than-life celebrity character in Athens. But the patriarchs of Athens, right, the dudes in charge, got nervous about her political power. When Alexander the Great tore down

the Wall of Thebes, she offered to rebuild it with her own money if they inscribed torn down by Alexander the Great rebuilt by the courtesan Phryne. So she was gaining real political power, so they charged her with witchcraft, which is a classic technique

specifically uh for impersonating the goddess aphrodite which is wow the gig that they hired her to fucking do right but by the way this only sex workers have to worry about this right comics and saxophone players don't have to worry about being too good at their job that they get fucking killed right but they they charged her with a capital offense right she was facing you know death right but she how old was she at this. Right. She was facing, you know, death. Right. But she. How old was she at this point?

Late 20s. Right. So like, you know, cresting 26, 27 or something. And she'd risen to fame in her late teens. And so she hired one of the famous orators. Right. A lot of the courtesans got together and pulled their money and hired this guy. And he famously stripped her naked in front of the jury and basically dared them.

They said, if you can look at this body and see that it is not a gift from the goddess, then like you can't smite this woman. This is she is divine, actually. And they fucking acquitted her. They acquitted her. Yeah, she got to live. Well, they said, are you going to smite her? They said, well, we just smite.

You mentioned the word courtesan. That, I guess, would be what we might call today a sugar baby. All kinds of sugar babies. Courtesans still exist. It's a great word. It's a different game, right? It's a great word. But that's not just your run-of-the-mill sex worker.

That's somebody that's... It's like the difference between, you know, working as a waiter, working as a sommelier, right? Like everyone's working in food service, but there's absolutely status differentiations. But these courtesans would stay with the same guy for long periods of time? Everyone worked differently. So, you know, Friday would entertain people for, you know, a night or a week. But yeah, most courtesans would be, you know, sort of kept by one main person for long periods of time. So that is sort of a sugar baby kind of an arrangement. It depends, right?

Again, people are running their own business models. There's a lot of different strategies. I'm really committed to circling back to this brothel thing so that you really get on board with why it's so fucked up. First of all, I don't need to get on board with everything you think. No, you don't need to get on board, but I feel like it's fundamentally like a

huge issue. I'm with you. Well, I mean, it sounds like a lengthy topic. It's not that long. You're saying that a brothel is never the right choice for a sex worker? It's not that it's never the right choice. It's that creating a state-enforced monopoly. You're saying that you

have to be in a brothel. That's right. Okay, fine. Yes. My point was that there might be women that would prefer that environment. Absolutely, right? Not everyone is an entrepreneur, right? There are people that choose to do this work that want to go to a place, log their hours. They don't want to advertise. They don't want to deal with the fucking phone shit. But that's the only way in which you can... Okay, well, that I can agree with you that, you know... We can move on now. Thank you.

If you're going to legalize it, then you know, I mean, I guess there has to be... What regulation should there be in a legal prostitution environment? I think in a future where no one is being arrested, evicted, fired, or loses custody of their kids just for engaging in this work, I could see some common sense regulations around advertising.

I could see communities getting together and being like, we don't want billboards for Broadway. Sorry, I just turned the wrong way with my back and all that. Advertising, I think that there's like community standards around public nuisance or traffic etc that could be you know ping ponged about but again that

would be a future where no one is being would you agree to would you agree to a woman has to have a license no because it creates a two tiered system so that a woman only prevents them the most vulnerable right people because like i said people dip in and out of this right people come to sex work because they need a few extra hundred dollars to to pay rent and creating a licensing system

right so like first of all i would never suggest that anyone put themselves on a stigmatized list right we've we've played this game too many times before but also you you end up creating a system where the people that are either unwilling or unable to get that license are still subjected to the same level of exploitation. They can't call the police. If something bad happens to them, they can't report. We have doctors and we say the doctor has to have a certain degree of qualifications. Right. For a sex worker, you would not be in favor of she has to be disease-free, say.

I think that people want to take care of their physical health and their bodies. So I would be fine with making STI testing and access free to sex workers. But I'm not comfortable with mandatory, putting yourself on a stigmatized list, mandatory test. So what the buyer would have to be caveat emptor. The client would have to share. People should be using condo. Yeah, absolutely. What we see in Nevada, by the way, with all of this, like the, you know, sex workers are

tested every week. It's made public. It's a whole thing. And what you see is it actually incentivizes the client to try to get away with not using the condom because they're so confident that the provider is, is clean. Right. And it really, like, it doesn't, it doesn't help, right? And this comes back to this foundational idea, right? Sex workers are not commodities. We are service providers.

If you have anything, I'm ready to wrap it up, Ariel, but if you have anything you'd wish to add. Fascinating. Max, thoughts? questions or thoughts no I have no I have no extra thoughts on it I thought it was I think you sound people are all the same

sound people God forbid you ask them to say something well there's a reason why they sit back there hidden by by like you know 12 screens

he's a little more choices yeah well thank you Caitlin Bailey and so we should I guess we can people can find you obviously. Totally.

Old pros online.org. Old pros online. So that gives you all the, we have a ton of events coming up. Events. New York. And how. Across the country. If people want to get involved in the destigmatization and legalization.

Decriminalization. Of prostitution. A cause that I think is, I'm certainly not against it. I may not be one of my top causes, but I certainly am in favor of it. Great. You know, why not? People, as I said, should be free to do what they wish with their bodies, and adults should anyway.

Perrielle. I got the ping pong photo today There was a photo of me Just briefly back in 1984 Playing ping pong in gym class Freshman year of high school Yes I'm dating myself But there you have it

And somehow it made it on eBay I don't know who took this damn picture I guess it was a local paper Thought it was an interesting story Two people playing ping pong in gym class. No, no, no. It's not two people. It said it was you.

It was me. Mark Lotzstein. Right, but they were comedians. And these two other freshmen that were watching us. Right, but the whole point was that it was comedian Dan Natterman. Didn't say comedian in it. Historic images. Didn't say comedian, did it?

I'm pretty sure it did. No, not in the version that I saw online. Probably not when you were a freshman. No, but they're saying the reason people put it up Yes, because it's you. Anyway, he put a post on You are a public figure, but he put a post on Instagram that said

that he found this of him and Mark Lotstein or whatever his name is. Mark Lotstein is the one that alerted me to this. Hi, Mark. I don't know if he listens, but Well, shout out if you're here listening. And then he said, Dan said, that how this photo of me and Mark Lotstein

playing ping pong in 1984 wound up on eBay. Only God knows. I didn't think it was quite that funny, but I'm glad you did. I did. It made me really laugh out loud.

And I immediately bid on, well, I didn't bid on it, actually. I just bought it. How much was it? I don't want to disclose that. Okay. Like $11? No.

Well, I'm sure it couldn't have been too much. Well, you never know. Well, I can't imagine it would be particularly expensive, but- Framed or unframed? Unframed. Okay. Original image. I think.

I haven't opened it yet. You gotta do a- I'm gonna bring it in next time. We're gonna do an unveiling. Okay. Well, I look forward to seeing it. I don't think I really look like me in the picture. It's not the clearest, but...

Can you pull it up? I have it. No, Max would have to pull it up. No, I have it on Instagram. Right, that doesn't help people watching this that you have it on Instagram. I can go to Instagram. You know what you can do? You can just Google Natterman-Lotstein ping pong, I think, and that

should do it for you. Ping pong has become very popular. Well, I was doing it before it was cool. Well, maybe you made it cool. Me and Mark Lotstein made it cool. What is Mark Lotstein doing these days? I'm not sure what he does. He's on his, I believe, second marriage.

I think he has a couple of kids. He's divorced. He's either in second marriage. I think he has a couple of kids. He's divorced. He's either in second marriage or he's with somebody. Yeah. And I just see him on Instagram. I don't know what he does for a living. And this is like one of like your really good friends? No, no.

No. No, we were ping pong rivals. Rivals? You were ping pong rivals? We weren't close. But the truth of the matter is, I probably talk more with them now than I even did then, just on Instagram.

It's a cute picture. It's amazing. I can't wait to get this thing framed. Well, can you blow that out? A little more than $11? It was a little more than $11. I think you can't do it on eBay, though. I think you have to go to Instagram, because once it's sold, it's gone.

Yeah, go to my Instagram. There we go. There you go. That's not my Instagram. Oh, there it is. So that's me wearing Nike sneakers and I don't know. And I think I remember that. Amazing.

That sweat jacket I'm wearing. That's an Adidas sweat jacket I believe I bought. My father bought me on a trip to Montreal because my parents are from there. We used to go there all the time. I believe that's what that is. It's rolled up and looking on in awe are Herman Huang. And I forgot the name of the other guy. I'm also enjoying it.

But it's an Italian name. And then there's some other pictures anyway so once again thank you Caitlin and Old Pros Online thank you so much and Periel and we didn't talk about your new project but we will

Stupid S-T-O-O-P-I-D, which is her cartoon animated series that she produced. And I guess I was in one of the episodes. Basically interviewing comics on the Stoop here at the Comedy Cellar, and they cartoonified. Congratulations. Thank you. We're going to do that at the top of the next show, not when everybody's already logged off. Fair enough. Well, you want to talk about it, we will talk

about it. I don't know how much time we'll devote to it, but five, ten minutes should suffice. Fun to. Thank you again, everybody, and we'll see you next time on Live from the Table. Thank you, Maxwell. Yeah, no problem. Now I have to get up from this chair, which is not going to be a simple

man. Are you okay? No, I'm not okay.