The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Snopes vs. Candace Owens: Can the Brigitte Macron Story be Debunked?

Episode Date: May 10, 2025

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand are joined by  Anna Rascouët-Paz, a French-Colombian journalist who reports for Snopes. She's also worked at WNYC for the show Radiolab, as an independent research publisher Annual Reviews and Bloomberg News. She recently produced a documentary podcast series on statelessness called Citizens of Nowhere.

This is Live From The Table, the official podcast of the world-famous comedy cellar, available wherever you get your podcasts, available on YouTube, which I think is the preferred way to consume the podcast. Because lately we've been doing a lot of clips and stuff, yeah. Yes, yes. And also available on demand. Are we still on demand on Sirius? Still on demand on Sirius. On demand on Sirius. We're no longer on the regular rotation there, because I guess we got too political.

Because what? We got too political. Yeah. So that's a con. Anyway, Dan Natterman here, comedy seller, comedian with Noam Dorman, who is the owner of the comedy seller. Four rooms in New York, one room in Vegas. Oh, we have new news. It looks like the new club is going to be open.

Will be finished, not open. It'll be finished October 15th is what they're telling me now. Okay. Which means we might actually be open. For New Year's. For New Year's. Wow. So you might want to cancel that spot you took at Rodney's.

Well, my New Year's thus far is free. But obviously if I get a, you know. That's a callback to an old episode. Come on, let's move on. Okay, and we have a pair of lashing brandies here, and we have with us a special treat, somebody who's neither Israeli nor Jewish, which is a rare thing for us

because we've been very Israel-centric as a podcast. I am actually Jewish, but it doesn't have to be germane to this podcast. Candace Owens, it has to be germane. Well, because your name is Anna Raskwet Paz. I'm not hearing anything Judaic in either of those names. Yeah, Paz.

Paz? That means peace in Spanish, right? It also means something shiny in Hebrew. I mean, it's a weird, bizarre thing on my mother's side, like just kind of, you know, Murano descendants, et cetera. Well, be that as it may, we're not here to discuss Israel today. No. Anna Rasquet-Paz has made a career of asking questions.

She's a French-Columbian journalist who now reports for Snopes. Snopes, you know what Snopes is. They dig into these urban legends that in the old days we all believed, but now you can just go on Snopes and verify it for yourself. So we know, for example,

that Rod Stewart did not wind up in the ER after ingesting large amounts of ejaculate material. But Richard Gere did have a gerbil in his butt. I don't think so. Is that true? I don't believe. As Snopes says so. I don't believe.

So anyway, and we're privileged to have her here today. She also has a podcast series on statelessness. So we'll probably get into that as well. But welcome to our show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's interesting that you're Jewish. I had no idea that you were Jewish.

We just keep stepping into that. We can't miss. But this Candace Owens thing, which we're going to talk about the Brigitte thing, Brigitte Macron, this is both great fun, but also is quite serious because if it, God forbid, should turn out that she's correct and Brigitte Macron is a man, this is going to give nourishment

and succor to all the conspiracies there is throughout the world. I mean, she's also saying that Dr. Mengele is nonsense and all kinds of other things. And other people are saying all kinds of other things. So, you know, it will really be egg on the face of us

skeptics if it turns out that Brigitte Macron is a man. What was was a side male at birth? We can all agree on that? Because she's saying that she was trans, that she is a trans.

Please don't start with that. Trump won, okay? Just enough with that nonsense. Do not, really, do not. She's either a man or a woman, okay? Everybody knows what that means. I'm not talking about identifying. Come on, don't even complicate it.

That's ridiculous. But nobody's being disrespectful to trans people here. Jesus Christ, Perrielle. What's the matter with you? Anyway, so first of all, before we get into the interview, what degree of certainty are you that Brigitte Macron was born a woman, XX, just like Perrielle allegedly? We are, based on all the research we've done uh 100 sure she's a woman 100 sure yeah okay so um where where is the best place to dive into this i i do want to i'll make some comments

up front but i really want you to lead the conversation because you know what you know and i don't really know there uh candace owens reads the letters that she's gotten from Brigitte Macron's attorneys or Emmanuel and Brigitte and these letters even if she's leaving stuff out they seemed written to encourage this conspiratorial thinking

this double talk and evasive language and all this stuff it's as if she couldn't have been happier when she received these letters. Do you agree with that? I mean, okay, so I haven't listened to every single letter that she has read out loud. But the one thing that I would say is that I think there needs to be some context about French culture here, which is that private life, privacy is paramount in a way that it is not here. And the instinct, you know, when you're getting attacked on your private life is to really

do your utmost to not even address the claims. Not to dignify it. Right, exactly. So you're not dignifying that. You're not bending around, you know, like a big defense, like you're not trying to show a birth certificate. You're not trying to do any ofifying that. You're not bending around, you know, like a big defense, like you're not trying to show a birth certificate. You're not trying to do any of that stuff. You're just trying to, you know, just ask the person to shut it down. Yeah. I mean, I'm not surprised that there is no clarity in terms of, you know, who Brigitte Macron is really in those letters, because that's not even the point. Let's just let's just get started. Let's just watch McCrone Letter 1 and McCrone Letter 2, these little clips, just to give people who are not into this an idea of how persuasive someone might feel that she's being

and how it seems like she was handed a gift by these attorneys who are so obsessed with privacy. Go ahead. That's the first one. We will put them all together so that you can see it as a series of everything that's happened with Emmanuel Macron and Brigitte Macron. They sent us a letter. And essentially in that letter, they did not address the substance of the claim that Brigitte Macron was a woman, but began to pick apart at other things that we had said and said, this could be defamation because of this. This could be defamation because of that. We responded to them and basically said,

look, we're not in, we're not in the business of lying. We believe, I believe rather, Candace believes that Brigitte McCrone was born a biological male. We're not doing this for funsies, obviously. Okay. And, um, we're going to give you an opportunity to answer that these questions, yes or no, very simple questions. We went over in the first episode. Questions like, did the first lady, Brigitte Macron, give birth to three children? Yes or no. Was she born a biological male? Who was the person in this photo?

Et cetera, et cetera. And they did not answer us at all. We gave them, I think, what would amount to 10 days, more than 10 days, perhaps, to respond. I'll play the second one. So they're saying literally a lot of nothing here other than it's an improbable conspiracy theory. All they have to do is write, Brigitte Macron was born a biological female. We are telling you that is a fact.

They won't do that. Brigitte Macron gave birth to three children. Their names are Lauren, Sebastian, and Tiffon. We are asserting that as a fact. Please correct the record. In our letter to them, we said, we are happy to correct the record. We are happy to tell the truth. We even offered to fly to France to conduct the interview so that Brigitte could respond

on record herself. Oh, that's a little much, right? We even offered to interview her. But there is something to be said. Why don't they start the letter saying, just to be clear, she is a, weren't a woman. So go ahead, go ahead. I mean, it's-

And then you want to tell the evidence. So to be clear, she actually did that. They actually did that in the French media long ago. The thing that you're running into here is that this is, it sounds like a zombie conspiracy that got revived, you know, just by complete, completely artificially here in the United States because Candace Owens has picked this up. But the case is done. It's solved. It went to court.

They lost. She won. It's over. Now, Candace claims that the court opinion actually didn't handle the issue of whether Brigitte Macron was a woman, but was found for Macron on some other technicalities of... No, I mean, so, I mean, I don't know how much you've seen or read

or understood about, like, this conspiracy theory in particular. Its roots are... Macron has been the target of several conspiracy theories. It starts with him working for Rothschild, and they called him a whore to the Jews, essentially. I mean, we go back to all the same. It's the same mechanisms. It's the same thing.

That was during his first campaign. Shortly after that, they actually started to spread the conspiracy, the notion that, you know, he was having like a homosexual relationship with a very prominent gay man who was like at the time the head of public radio. That, of course, was false. You know, it was denied. The man said, I am gay, but I'm in a relationship with somebody else this is insane I've met Macron twice and that was the first campaign and the second campaign for re-election um essentially it you know they took kind of all those various elements and they just

targeted Brigitte Macron and to be clear this isn't she's not the first one to be targeted in this way Michelle Obama was targeted in this way. We wrote about that too. This is a tried and true thing. So here's what they came up with. This, again, we go back to the same. Can I swear on this podcast? Sure, please do. We go back to the same shit.

It starts with the same shit. This starts in a newsletter that is notoriouslyiously anti-semitic it starts like that okay so this guy just hires this random woman who i don't know if she was a medium or something like she uh might have been her other person like some sort of fake journalist to come up with the notion that brigitte macron was born jean-michel okay je. Jean-Michel supposedly then transitioned later in life, became a woman. He's now a trans woman. And before Jean-Michel transitioned into Brigitte Macron,

supposedly Jean-Michel had children with a woman called Catherine Auzière. Turns out Jean-Michel is Brigitte Macron's brother and he's still very much alive. I went up the genealel is Brigitte Macron's brother, and he's still very much alive. I went up the genealogy of Brigitte Macron. Jean-Michel is still alive. He actually went to court as well to protect his good name, right? And he won in court as well.

Did he testify that his sister is a sister? Yeah. Yeah. And Catherine Osier is actually married to somebody else. Brigitte Macron's first husband, who is now dead, was an Osier. So she had her children with this man before she, you know, I'm always amazed because the way that things started with Macron, he was a child. He was a child. He was a child. She was his teacher. So let's talk. How old was he when this cougar bedded him? This is more than a cougar situation. He was the official story given by the Élysée years ago when they started doing the campaign was that he was about 16, 17.

Some investigations have come up since that it actually started in middle school, like around 14. That's what Candace says, 14. She says she did the math. I haven't verified this, so I can't speculate, but regardless, he was a minor. And I am just kind of amazed that, you know, this isn't the scandal.

This isn't the story that people keep harping on. Like, did they have to kind of make up the story that she's trans? Like, it's enough. You know what I'm'm saying like i i feel like it should be enough the french are much more easygoing about these things than we are you know it's true but i mean there's a lot of change coming on and even even still today when you when you talk to people there have been some new investigations about this again i haven't verified them this is probably something that i should be looking into um but the the reality, like, the kid was young enough.

You don't need to, you know. So she left her husband for a, let's say, 14, 15-year-old. Yeah. Immanuel Macron. So it started as an affair that got, you know, encouraged and protected. How much older is she than he is? That's a really good question she was almost 20 years right yeah something like that something so he was 15 and she was like 30 he is

the same age as one of her children okay um so he's by the way i would like to argue that it's an even bigger scandal than being trans like who cares if she's trans that's insane if you hadn't zoned out, you would understand that that's what she just said. No, I agree. I mean, I... I'm agreeing with her. And I do understand that.

It might be a... I had a thought. It might be a bigger scandal. It's not a bigger conspiracy theory. Right. It's not more interesting. So continue, continue. So they actually got ahead of this story.

And I think they tried to kill the story by saying, you know, he was in high school. This is when it happened. You know, I don't know. Like, we have to, I would have to look more deeply. 25 years younger than his wife. Yeah.

Highly unusual for the woman to be that much older. For the man, it's unusual too. But obviously. Let's stick to the trans thing. Go on. too but obviously let's stick to the the trans the con so so the the fact so you know it's kind of like it kind of it kind of amazes me that you know she has a dead brother right she has a brother who died a long time ago they could have very well taken used his name to spread this theory now they took the name of the guy who's alive who can say hi i'm right

here this is my sister she's always been my sister and i'm still alive and i'm right here like she's not me later right how does the story account for him being alive they never that's the thing they never really account for that right so they got dragged to court and they won because what are you talking like you know what i'm saying like there's no okay they could they couldn't bring any real evidence of any of it but let me ask you all the most common sense questions why are there not 20 different people on youtube at the time i'm saying yeah yeah i knew brigitte growing up yeah i went to summer camp with her yeah she was in my class why why are there i'm not sure they have summer camp in France. Why are there only so...

Why are there so few pictures of her? Why are there not 300 pictures of her as a girl growing up available to us? Because again, I think the attitude here

is really not to dignify this with an answer. But even her friend... Like if somebody accused Dan of being a woman, you know, I'm sure I would come up and say,

what are you talking about? I've known Dan for... I would come forward with those pictures. I mean, what people have said, I'm sure I would come out and say, what are you talking about? I've known Dan for 20... I would come forward with those pictures. I mean, what people have said, I fight like a girl. I mean, you know, I think... Listen, I can't speak for them. I can only tell you what I assume

kind of the logic would be in a situation like this. Being French and kind of like having some sort of understanding of what the French mentality on this would be. It is not, we're not trying to dignify this. Here's my brother. You don't need any more proof.

I don't owe you. Like, I don't owe Candace Owens anything. Who cares if she sent us all these questions? Yeah, I'm not going to give it the time of day. The other thing that you need to take into account is that this is going to be Macron's last last term like in 2027 he's gone like he's not he's not going to get re-elected right so all they have to do is just sit tight and and wait for this to go away it already went away in france this is not an issue in france it's not an issue for the voters in france so

you know this this we can talk a little bit more about the famous transvestigations that we seek propping up like left and right and I think you'll recognize many of the same mechanisms that you find you know for other types of conspiracy theories notably like none of these elements and mechanisms are new we've been experiencing them for millennia you know and it's just it's just kind of like a new group because it's preying on fears of people well and and misunderstandings about you know what being trans is etc so well i want i want you to take a step by step through um the case such that we will all come to the conclusion as 100 certain like you say but i but But I do want to ask before you do that, whatever the French sensibility is,

this has become a more important issue than merely whether she is or isn't and whether they have maintained their privacy. It's become a pivotal issue in a worldwide problem, which is this embrace of conspiracy theories. And you would think somebody would appeal to them, hey, listen, I know this requires special dispensation. Come forward. Candace Owens has had the nerve to say, I'll bet my entire career, produce something, DNA, something that's unequivocal and humiliate these people so that, and I know

the voice in my head is saying they always find some way to talk around these things, but there are many, many people who saw what I just played before and are like is there something really going on here? It's so weird. Just humiliate these conspiracy theorists because we need

a stake through the heart as much as we can through this i mean it's very dangerous what's going on i you know we fight uh conspiracy theories and disinformation day in and day out at snobs that's kind of like how we make you know how we exist and how you know we're actually doing quite well in terms of views right now because they're flying left and right. So the conspiracy is you guys are in on the conspiracy theories because that's how you make money. It's a symbiotic relationship.

We are so completely overworked. I can't begin to tell you. I wish we had a bigger team. I wish we had more editors. It's incessant. The Jews at Snopes got it all figured out. It's a self-sustaining reaction. Okay, so go ahead.

No, I mean, you know, we are living in this really complicated time. And I am teaching you nothing, you know, when it comes to kind of the spread of conspiracy theories, because this is something, again, that we've seen for a very long time. It's becoming more and more prominent. And I understand the instinct to, like, shut them down, shut them down, shut them down, shut them down. I, what I think is that they have dealt with those conspiracy theorists there. And those were the most dangerous ones,

because they were the ones getting in the way of him getting reelected, of him getting, you know, his policy through, of him, you know, just being able to kind of govern. At this point, this is moot. In France, it's moot because the guy's at the end of the thing. There is a bigger fight. I agree with you that there is a bigger fight. There is a bigger battle here to be carried out against conspiracy theories. I don't think that they think it's their battle right now.

All right. So take us through step by step. I know people at home are saying, can you get to the point? Give it, tell us, you looked into it. Tell us what you looked into it, what you found. Did you go into it with an open mind? Yeah. What convinced you otherwise?

Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, so let me, let me just pull this up because the details are kind of like, there's a lot. But like, again, we, you know, I, what I, one of the things that I did is I went into PDFs and the archives of this newsletter. I tried to pull as much as I possibly could. It's not obvious because he doesn't actually publish this newsletter.

Let me see if I can find his name. Xavier, Xavier Poussard, okay. He had been putting out this newsletter for a while. He doesn't put them out on the internet. This is not digitized at all. So if you're going to find a copy, it's going to be somebody just either scanning it or taking a picture of it. There aren't too many examples of this online, but the little that I've seen is, I mean, take the absolute craziest thing you can imagine. This is the sort of stuff that he peddles, right? So then he hires this woman called Natasha Ray.

So Natasha Ray. And he hires her as a contributing writer for this story. And it basically, this is what she says. says she says Brigitte Macron is born a man and his name is Jean-Michel Tronieu her her maiden name is Tronieu right um she says Natasha this this writer says that she had three children before transitioning with a woman called Catherine Auzier. Okay? H-O-Z-I-E-R? A-U-Z-I-E-R-E. Yeah.

They are saying that André Louis-Auzier, who was Brigitte Macron's first husband when she met Macron, the father of her children, they're saying that he never existed. And they are harping, they're using the fact that this man was extremely discreet, very, very private person. He died very, very quietly. It was a very small ceremony. Like his life was very small and very, you know, quiet and removed from public view, even if she, even as she became more prominent, right? And even as her

children became more, their children became more prominent. So this newsletter called Faises Documents. I was going to say, if my trans wife left me for a 14 year old, I might die. I mean, like the poor man, you know, like, what has he gone through? Who knows? He never spoke openly about it. I don't know. Like, he just, again, like,

it's hard to kind of overstate how attached to privacy French and France as a culture really is. But that's not going to cut it as an argument of a proof. That's just... It's not an argument of proof. It's a rationalization.

Right. So then Faises Documents, with this newsletter, so Facts and Documents is the name of the newsletter, keeps going on and on. And they keep putting out, I think it's six other issues. And this is happening. Like in late 2021. And bear in mind that in April 2022,

we have an election and he's running to get reelected, right? So this is timed. It's a certain time in his career. It's a certain time in his presidency. Again, like we have to remember this all of this is actually it's almost like it's almost like a recall of the first campaign of 2016 2017 when the rumor was that he was he's gay and he's having a relationship and he's this you know more to the jew, et cetera, et cetera.

So then this story goes, explodes. It goes, it starts in this newsletter, but this newsletter has a limited distribution. And then Natasha Ray goes on this, I think it's a podcast or like a vlog or YouTube show or whatever with this woman who is a psychic. They have this crazy long session, just the two of them,

where all they do is talk about this. And Natasha Ray is just kind of spouting out everything she wrote about Brigitte Tronieu, born Jean-Michel Tronieu, who blah, blah, blah, and this and that. And eventually these two women will be the ones who will get sued and lose in court. And the psychic says, yes, I'm feeling the vibrations.

Yeah. So this goes like, I think... Is the psychic talk to the dead husband? Oh my, you know what? Like, no, like they're just, they're just, they're just shooting new shit. They're just talking about this. They're just kind of exploring the notion that, you know, this is what happened to Brigitte Macron. Okay.

So, this, you know, this, again, like, what you have to understand is that at this point, these are representing the far right. You know, conspiracy theory, like you can imagine, very similar to what you have here. They represent the far-right. And the main opponent to Macron in the election is Marine Le Pen, who happens to represent the far-right, right? So this, all of this stuff is just kind of like, you know, like QAnon and Pizzagate-ish, right? Kind of. And it's orchestrated at a very bizarre time. Like, and again, it's not the first time this happened. Yeah, but we need evidence. We have a birth certificate, photos. We need evidence that she's a woman.

You are thinking like an American. I mean, it's true. Some scientific method here. But there's no photographs of her as a child? There are photographs of her as a child. I can bring them up if you want to use them. That doesn't really tell you anything.

Play that Macron photos one. I found what Candace says they had about photos. Let's see what else there is. You tell us what else there is. Now, Virginie Linhart did however receive two photos from Brigitte's alleged childhood. One, the public was told was from Brigitte's alleged childhood. One, the public was told,

was from Brigitte, then Trogno, would have been her last name, her first communion. I'm going to show you that photo. Here it is. And another photo, now infamous photo, of the entire Trogno family, allegedly taken about a year after Brigitte's birth, okay. That is the full Trogno family photo, which we will come back to. So now really all that was missing from that photo of her communion until the school photos, which appear in 1986, was 23 years of Brigitte's life, the most crucial years of her life. You know, like, I don't know, her being a teenager, her getting married at 21, her allegedly having three babies,

her getting married to a banker named André-Louise Osier, who was her husband of 32 years. Like, I don't know. Do people not take photos of them and their husbands in France? I don't know. Fair points. Yeah, but you know what I'm saying.

It's easy to take pictures and it's easy to just kind of have this discourse if this is what you're trying to convince yourself or your audience to believe. So, I mean, I don't think, and I mean, if we

know anything about the way conspiracy theories spread, there's nothing you can say. Aren't there online yearbooks like there are in America? No, no, this isn't a thing. Like, we don't do yearbooks. But are there pictures of her at the wedding? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's the wedding pictures.

I don't know about her first wedding, but, you know, like, there were pictures of her still married to Ozier before. You know, with Macron, there's pictures of her teaching. You have some pictures we can bring up? I can find them. Yeah, yeah, we can find them. We can email them. Or you can email them to us after. You can describe them now.

We can cut them out. But we can take a second to email them to us if you want, if you want to give her the... Yeah, I mean, if you want. Let me see if I can find them. But yeah, like, there are pictures of her with her drama class and Macron as a young student, I mean, if you want, let me see if I can find them. But yeah, like there are pictures of her with her drama class and Macron as a young student, you know, before she supposedly divorced her husband and transitioned and whatever.

Like she didn't. You know what, you send me all those pictures and I'll just overlay them on what we're doing now. You can send it after we leave. So, okay, There is a birth certificate for Brigitte Macron? We, she would never share that.

But I read somewhere that there was. I mean, yeah, like this woman was born Brigitte. I looked at the genealogy. Again, she, you know, she has like several brothers. I think there was

six, six siblings. Two sisters, Annie, Marie-Vonne, Monique. And then there's the brother, Jean-Claude, who was born, Two sisters, Annie, Marie-Vonne, Monique. And then there's the brother Jean-Claude, who died in 2018, Jean-Claude. And then there's Jean-Michel, who is supposedly the man she was,

who is still alive. Which is insane. I mean, that in and of itself is absurd, isn't it? I think so. I mean, they're saying that she's the brother, and he's standing in court going, no, she wasn't born Jean-Michel. I'm Jean-Michel.

And who do they say that little girl on the lap of the mom? One of her bigger sisters. Marie-Claude? It was Annie. Let me find all the names. It's just fun to hear you speak French. Marie-Claude? It was Annie. Let me find all the names. It's just fun to hear you speak French. Annie, Maryvonne, and Monique.

So there were four sisters and two brothers. So the sisters are Annie, Maryvonne, Monique. Maryvonne? Maryvonne. I never heard that name. It's Mary-yvonne, I guess. Oh, Maryvonne. Yeah, yeah.

Maryvonne and one, yeah. And then you've got the two brothers, Jean-Claude and Jean-Michel. And Brigitte is obviously the third sister, fourth sister. Yeah, but this is painful for me to say because, you know, I'm sure she's a woman. But after the show,

I still don't know what I can tell somebody. Like, it's ridiculous because I've learned today, what? That the French are private? That's not... I mean, I'm sorry. It's not satisfying.

I understand it's not satisfying. But how does Snopes say it's 100% bull? Again, we've looked at the genealogy. We've done this for many... Looked at the genealogy based on public records? Yeah. And what public records did you find? French websites.

You know, like, there's a lot. But the thing, like, again, the thing that I keep coming back to is that Jean-Michel Tronieu has spoken to the press he exists

he's still alive there's public records of court you know there's court records of this person he said my sister is a sister

he's like my sister is my sister I am me I'm still here that's the most compelling piece of evidence so far though I wish I could bring up the video

of it though and then and then uh her she she has a daughter who who's spoken on her behalf as well right uh she has uh two daughters and a son if i'm not mistaken but one of them i think is yes yeah yeah and their names are uh we just like to hear you say the name okay Okay, I guess I can just like stay here and start listing. Jean Baptiste. Start listing French names. Black Jack Shellac. I don't, I can find, I'll find,

I'll find. Okay. I don't know. I can speak the rest of this podcast with a French accent. Sartre Blue. If you want me to. Does your dog bite?

The other thing that matters here is that her supposed ex-wife, the wife with whom formerly Jean-Michel Tronieu, now Brigitte Macron, was supposedly married and had children with, is a woman called Catherine Auzière. She's also alive. She also went to court. Oh, she did? Yes. yes okay now we're onto something so

the woman she's she is married to a man called jean-louis oziere so their family to her husband to her former husband right um and jean-louis oziere who is katrine oziière's husband is the uncle of Brigitte Macron's first husband. So these people exist. And again, they all went to court. So I'm saying... Do we have transcripts in court? I mean, I could pull them out, but I... I tried to find court transcripts.

Chachi Berti says they're not released. It's, again, it's Berti says they're not, they're not released. It's, it's, it's again like this, it's kind of like very different there. You know, you don't, you know, it's, it, the stuff that you can get easily is, is, is not similar. But, you know, we know, we know that there was a court case brought by Catherine Ozier, by Jean-Michel Tronieu and by Brigitte Macron. If we had some money, let's say we had $10,000. Let's say somebody wanted If we had some money, let's say we had $10,000. Let's say somebody wanted to put up some money. Could we get some

of these people and talk to them and interview them? Can we, you and me together, can we strike a blow? I'm totally serious now. I think this is very serious. I can tell you, listen. Can we get a birth certificate, for example? Is that possible to get?

From court records, maybe. We need to track this down. If we could prove this. I can tell you one thing that Macron did say on the radio. This is on the record. Which Macron? Brigitte? Brigitte. Was it NRG with Nikos Aliagos?

Oh my god. Was this before or after she transitioned? I was actually on that show. So this was actually in 2022, so this is about a year well,

actually not a year, it's actually a few months after this whole story comes out right uh where after it goes viral and she goes on the radio and she says at a given point i realized that they were subverting my genealogy they changed my family tree it was fine for three quarters of my family but then we get to my brother and i am my brother so she says that right she's saying it out loud on the radio it's very public they are messing with my parents genealogy it's impossible so she's you know she's like basically she's saying it so this is this is completely crazy um my i'm me and my brother is my brother and

we're both still alive this is the thing that kind of amazes me if you're going to throw something like this around especially because they started doing this after the death of her other brother, they could have easily gone with the name of her other brother. Instead, they take the brothers who's alive. Well, they would say, yes, we could have done that,

but that would have been a lie. She is Jean-Michel. You know, yeah, but like it would be easy. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, but they can play that the other way and say like, yeah, it would have been easier for us to do that. So doesn't that kind of indicate to you that we're telling the truth?

Because why would we come up with this less plausible story except that we're constrained by just honesty? I know. But in this whole situation, what you do know is that they're not explaining Catherine Auzière, supposedly her ex-wife. They're not explaining the fact that Catherine that katrina's husband is her former husband's uncle they're not explaining that you know jean-michel is alive they're not explaining any of this they're not addressing this and this is kind of like i said it's one of the things that

comes up in conspiracy theory is you're just conveniently ignoring some of the things that we're throwing at you so they keep making you know money oh you know with these videos and with these things and they keep just kind of like feeding the audience all these things and they never address those points we need to prove this is not true i mean tucker carlson is behind it joe rogan is behind it i mean well but prove to who you're not gonna you're not gonna convince, you know, the people that are really... No, I have to be, you know, forthright here. As opposed to some other conspiracy theories, the stuff that Candace is presenting is enough to create doubt even in skeptical people's mind.

And if you tell me, well, you don't understand the French are very private, this is not a winning argument. But the fact is that if these people are out there, there are many, many people, I believe, who are like, oh my God, could this actually be true? Who all they need to do is see a few pictures, a few pictures, her bat mitzvah picture, something, and we know that it's not true, you know?

Yeah. Well, what about the pictures that we saw? They was not sufficient for you? Well, listen, you could find more pictures of me on the internet, and I'm nobody. I'm sure I have class pictures that my friends have posted. There's yearbook pictures. I'm sure you can find all sorts of pictures of me. Yeah, isn't there like a school history of her or something?

Where did she go to elementary school? Where did she go to middle school? Where did she go to... I mean, we can, yeah, I mean, we, you know, we can keep looking at all of this. The way that I look at it is that we have now the answer from the courts. You know, we have Jean-Michel Tronieu won his case. She won her case.

Catherine Auzien won her case. The three children were involved with her lawsuit. You know, what I'm saying is, like, we can keep pushing and pushing. The reality is everybody lost, and those people were quiet in France. They're not spreading this anymore. The only reason we're still hearing about this

is because Candace Owens picked this up yeah with what purpose and what goal it's unclear to me you know other than i think those conspiracies just kind of contribute conspiracies contribute to this kind of like atmosphere of we can't believe we don't know what's real and what's not which i think serves a purpose in and of itself i think this is just kind of like a playbook that we've seen happen time and time again um but this this story is no longer a debate in you know in the in france where where this would have mattered in terms of election in terms of election result this is no longer a debate so right but but yeah but that's i i know so so court obviously we all have some skepticism in this country now about certain court cases.

And OJ was found innocent. But the court case would have much more credibility if we could see some of the evidence that was presented in the court, hear some of the testimony, read some of the transcripts. But we haven't got any of that. This is upsetting me to no end. Well, Noam, you might have to take a trip to France and dig in. I mean, if you give me a moment, I'll try to see what I can come up with and send to you after this recording. We need to join forces.

Listen, I am here because i kind of it's so important to us right like we are on a mission to debunk as much disinformation as much crap as we can find i have i have another french related if you'll indulge me another french related i don't know if it's a conspiracy theory but a controversy that i think is very important if you think it will be interesting to an audience... I think it would be exceedingly interesting. Go ahead. The oldest woman of all time is reported to be Jean

Combe of Arles. I don't have the pronunciation that you have, but be that as it may. She died allegedly at the age of 122 in the 1990s, far surpassing anybody we know of in terms of longevity. So some people say, well, this is...

She's a man too? No, she's not a man. Oh, I don't understand. Now there are people that say, no, she wasn't 122. She was actually her sister or her daughter or something like that. And she did not die at 122 and the and the and i don't know if they have much um what evidence they have but i know the evidence that that comment was 122 the next closest uh person was like 119 and and it's such a it's so wildly uh older than

anybody's even come close to that people naturally doubted that. And now some say, well, it was her daughter or something like that. Do we know for a fact that the woman that died at 122 was... You know, this is what we've all grown to believe. But if you give me the mission, I'll go check that out. So let me just say, because I want to talk about Candace, that Harry Enten, CNN, actually, were you there?

No. He just brought this very thing up to me the other day. He said that, because he's a statistics person, and he says that's the one conspiracy theory. No, it couldn't be one that he believed, but somehow we were talking about what we do. I guess we asked him, is there one that you believe? I guess he said that's one that he didn't believe.

But he said that even though 122 seems very plausible compared to 119, actually, statistically, the cluster is so heavy around 119 as the upper limit that 122 is a drastic change. Increase. And he finds it hard to believe. But, you know. I mean, I am happy. Do you believe that?

Or you don't know? I don't know. She's sort of a national hero. She is. And she still is. And we still talk about her. She's one of those famous people. Apparently, part of the problem is that she's very private.

Well, that is part of it. Because they don't want to dig her up. Yeah, I don't think they would want to go there. But you could dig her up and do some sort of testing. I guess you could try to do some bone age situation. Let's get back to it. So, listen, but you are 100% sure that Brigitte Macron is a woman? Yeah, I am. You know, again, I understand that presenting facts to people who believe conspiracy theories only gets us so far, which is nowhere.

I fully understand that. All I can do is really verify. It's the absence of evidence here, which is what is troubling everybody. There's no pictures of this freaking woman. She can't just issue a DNA test. As opposed to many things like who shot Kennedy, this is actually disprovable beyond any doubt whatsoever. I mean, what's surprising to me is you see her as a First Communion kid,

and that's not enough. And then you see her, I cannot imagine that they haven't come across pictures of her standing with her drama class, you know, when Macron was a young boy. And, you know, they can come up with anything at this point. Like, this is manipulated. This is, you know, this is manipulated. This is Photoshop. This is whatever. This is not real. AI is now making better images

than I can make at this point, right? So it's so easy to just kind of go around this and just dismiss it, dismiss it, dismiss it. I mean, what would be proof positive, you know, in your opinion? Baby pictures. But there is that baby picture of the communion. Isn't that not?

No. Obviously, proof positive would be, you know, a medical record. But very, very beyond a reasonable doubt, you know, definitely beyond a preponderance of evidence, would be 20 or 30 pictures. This is her at her nursery school. This is her with her mother. This is her baby. Who doesn't have a baby picture?

Well, but I'm guessing that they must have seen something in court to have found, to have debunked this in court, right? To have found this. Well, then why don't we see the picture? Well, I don't know. Maybe because of what Anna's saying. Okay. And I understand that it's frustrating.

I mean, I think, again, like, you know, this is just one of the many, many, many transvestigations we've come across over time, you know, and we have to kind of, I think, when you look at something like this, you're not just looking at kind of like the hard evidence. You're also looking at who's saying it. When are they saying it?

What would be the motive for saying this at this point? Anna. Yes. I don't want to put 3,000 years of Jewish history on your shoulder. But these same people are denying the Holocaust. I know, I know. I mean, it is the same thing. I know.

This is kind of like my point we're coming we're coming to the i mean it is so interesting to me because the mechanisms are the exact same the elements are the same the way that they get articulated is the same you know this is nothing new we're just talking about this latest obsession with a small group of people this is again you know it is an insignificant number of people they're not doing anything to anyone really um you know they're you know like we have friends who joke about this like why she's strange, it's a bad thing. You know, nobody really cares, but what you're doing is you're harping on the fears that, you know, that get stoked and peddled and used to kind of obscure much bigger issues.

Because, again, Michelle Obama was the target of such a transvestigation. Katie Ledecky was the target of such a transvestigation. Iman Khalif, you know, the boxer, the Olympic boxer from Algeria, was also the target of something like this. But she was genetically male. That does, no, because, just because she, so, first of all, we have to kind of like we went into this my colleague alex casper i actually did an investigation um i i worked with him on this

because i was i was helping translate i was having kind of look look at different things x y does not on its own make a male the thing that iman kif, if this is what it is, because again, nobody would confirm that those records are real, right? The supposed records, her medical records that got leaked, nobody would confirm. We talked to the doctors, nobody would confirm that those are real. If they are real, they do not indicate that Iman Khalif is a man. What this indicates is that she is a woman with XY chromosomes, with androgen resistance. It is not the same thing as being a man. And people get very, understand, it's confusing. This is complicated. We're talking chromosomes, we're talking genes. It's quite a coincidence that she looks so masculine.

But typically androgen resistant women and i know one look completely female you they are completely female because she looks masculine but the testosterone isn't doing anything because it's not going anywhere because there's no receptors for it you know what i'm saying like i'm oversimplifying this thing this i actually don't believe that not that i'm expert but i remember reading all about it at the time reading responsible people who were not like out to get her and i was very persuaded that whatever the the gradations are that the x y was not an irrelevant factor to her success as a boxer and that's really all that what i'm what i'm saying what i'm saying is i'm not i'm not talking i'm gonna i'm not gonna get into her physicality and all

of that but what i'm saying is that this woman was raised as a girl identifies as a girl there was never any sign until yes that i believe is true right and and they until they did genetic sex we're not talking about trans person we're not trying we're not talking about trans person. We're not talking about a hidden man acting like a woman to win this thing. This is not what this is. Right. The question was whether it was fair for XX females to compete against this person of this genetic makeup, regardless of whether you want a man, whatever you want to call it, or if it actually doesn't comport with either category, if it's like a real outlier category, whatever it

is, the question was, is it fair for a woman to have to box against this person? And it's, I mean, for any woman, the thing that, you know, and this is, again, like something that we look at a lot, and one of the things that I would say is people are gifted. People are gifted physically. People are gifted. Maybe they're very good at swimming. Maybe they're very good at running. Maybe they're very good at climbing. Maybe they're very good at maths. You know, people are gifted in certain ways. And just because genetically this person is favored, you know, does not make her less of a woman. Some XX, holy female women, cis women, however you want to call them, produce more testosterone than some males. I have to say that I feel that what you're saying is a little political here.

I'm not- Not very Snopes-like. No, I mean, no, what I'm trying to kind of share here is that it is much more complicated than anybody understands. That, you know, like the science behind sex, I'm not even talking about gender and identity, I'm talking about the science behind sex is much more complicated. And I know because we've done a lot of these stories i think what you're trying what you might be saying trying to say saying and i agree with this if if it is underneath it is that much of this stuff even the stuff we might like i might agree with it's uncomfortable to know that it's fueled by bigotry and hatred. Yes, correct. It clearly is oftentimes. And I am aware of that.

And I don't like when I agree with the people who are fueled by bigotry and hatred on this issue, on affirmative action, or many issues that I actually might agree with them on. But I have to fight that urge in myself because if they're right about something, then they're right about something. Just like if Candace turns out to be a man, it's going to be very, very painful. But I don't believe she's a man. It's just too ridiculous to me to think that she's a man.

Right. And that's why I really want to, and I'm ready to spend money on it. I want to track this down to the extent that it can be. I don't know if any... You must know somebody who knows the McCrons. They need to understand. It's not just about their dumb privacy.

There's a lot actually at stake here. It sounds overblown. It sounds absurd. No, it's not. If Candace and these idiots, Tucker, Joe, all got out over their skis... We're about to say Joe Rogan, but... Thanks, Dan. What the fuck is the matter with you? Well, I mean, it was obvious We're about to say Joe Rogan, but... Thanks, Dan. What the fuck is the matter with you?

Well, I mean, it was obvious you were about to say Joe Rogan, so I didn't think I was saying anything that wasn't... There really is something wrong with him. Was it not obvious? If it was obvious, then why did you feel you had to underline it? Well, I don't know. I thought it was interesting. Anyway.

I mean, you know, it's i i not that i listened to joe rogan we do know that we have fact check stuff coming out of you know joe rogan's show before um yeah but if they all got out over their skis on this yeah uh and actually i'm not sure if joe rogan actually did say he believes it tucker actually said he believed it, which is the reason I caught myself. But then, it would be great to be able to have them all out over their skis on this one conspiracy, which actually you

can disprove, as I said, as opposed to Who Killed Kennedy, or many other conspiracies, Jeffrey Epstein, all these things which they can always hide. There's other conspiracy theories that I think are pretty provable that people don't seem to believe, that people seem to still believe. Poissance. What's that?

Poissance. I had poissance. I had to say, for instance, in French. Par exemple. Par exemple. Par exemple. I mean, you pronounce it. Par exemple.

Yeah. But, for example, I saw Mel Gibson on Joe Rogan and Mel Gibson was he was he was really looking maniacally

he said I know some people with cancer and they took something and they don't have cancer anymore how do you prove that's not true and and

and it was like and Joe was like well where was it it's what you think and it was like ivermectin or something he claims that ivermectin cures cancer

whatever that they have a cure for cancer and Rogan didn't say Rogan seemed kind of to go with it. Yeah, but you can't prove that's not true. You can prove that she's a woman. You can't, you can't so, yes. Well, I don't know that you can prove

that she's a woman any more than you can prove that they that there's a cure for cancer that nobody knows about. You would have, you know, a million doctors saying this is bullshit. No, you can't prove that there's not a cure for cancer that nobody knows about, but you can prove that she is a woman. That's what these conspiracies require to be debunked. I would say that whatever we can get to kind of demonstrate that she's a woman

is something you can argue about. Maybe the photo has been AI made. Just give her a glass of water. Just like the spy movie. Get the glass back. Run it through DNA testing. But you would have to do this without her consent. Get her a hairbrush.

Because if it comes from her, if she says, This could be fun. Here's my karyotype. Here is my genetic test. If this is what she does, everybody's going to say she fabricated it. You know what I'm saying? They're going to say she fabricated it. You know what I'm saying? They're going to say you fabricated it. It's a never-ending conversation.

I thought about that, but I believe, again, the question is, you know, to what degree you want to prove it to everybody. I think you can have some procedure where you agree on three different labs, mutually agree with Candice or whatever, or whoever it is,

and you send it. And of course, the real crazies will never believe anything, but the people who are bothered by the things I'm pointing to will say,

oh, thank God. Okay, you know. Yeah. But how many people are out there that are thinking, well, maybe, you know,

that are reasonable, fair-minded people that are saying, well, maybe she is a man. I mean, how many people are in that category? A lot. I'm meeting them. Everybody

I've met who has seen this Candace show has expressed some like... What about Michael Shermer? What does he have to say? I don't know. They're all like, do you think? Could it be? Like, why are there no pictures? Why are the lawyers sending these weird, you know, evasive letters? Yes, Perrielle.

I just found the hospital. Go ahead, forget it. You're just from the hospital. I just found the hospital that she was born in. Allegedly, yeah. Well, I mean, you have proof. What is it, a birth certificate? No, but I'm saying.

Wait, wait, but I think I did read that there was a birth announcement. There is, like Obama. I think there was a birth announcement there is like Obama I think there was a birth announcement you need to find that too I'm trying to do some due diligence here and you're I mean

if we found the hospital then you should be able to track down the birth certificate from that hospital I don't think the birth certificate from that hospital. Okay. I don't think the birth certificate is public record. Okay, but it doesn't need to be public record. You can still try.

We'll go to the hospital and you'll distract the staff. Well, I guess. Hilarious. Well, Ocean's 11. Hilarious. We need to do this. All right. Well.

So, I mean, yeah. What I would say is that. And her high school. I'm sorry. But like here, it's a matter of public record where she went to school. So you could easily. Yeah. This is all the point.

You're right. Everything you're saying, except that you can't go to the internet and see an old report card of hers. You can't go and see an old class picture of hers. You can't... Right, but you're saying you want to spend money to track this stuff down.

I'm saying that like it seems like you could contact... It's not like we have no idea here. It's not like there's no... Isn't it weird to you that nobody's done this? Like where's... No, I'm not convinced

that nobody... I'm not convinced that nobody has. I'm guessing that I'm not convinced that nobody has. I'm guessing that the courts in France already did this. Yeah, maybe we need to speak to somebody, a lawyer. Well, you have me. Can you get in touch with one of the lawyers from the court case and do a follow-up? I can absolutely send an email.

These people are available, easily available. I mean, again, like we, I think we can dig into this as deep as we want. I also don't believe that anything would make the slightest bit of difference in terms of how far and wide these conspiracies are going to spread. No, it makes a difference. You don't think Candace Owens would say,

oh, I was wrong. Can you imagine? That would be amazing. No, but I do think, I mean, it's funny you say that because I'm hearing this a lot in my life where

people tell me, Oh, it doesn't matter. You can't change anyone's mind. And I, I don't believe that's true. People's minds are changed. It's,

it's not true that you very rarely have a conversation with somebody like, oh, you're right, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot. But you wear people down, and over time, pendulums do shift. And I just can't accept the idea that proof and evidence and, you know, as I say, I don't know if I'm trying to, I like to say in threes, but proof and evidence are irrelevant and ineffective in public conversation and debate. I agree with you.

When Obama finally released his birth certificate, that issue deflated. Now, it's true. You would have thought that the birth announcement was enough. It wasn't. But he finally said, all right,

here's my fucking birth certificate. And then it all went up. Poof. And then it came back up. I don't know if you noticed. There's new discussion about this now. It popped back up.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Not the same. Not the same. I'm not saying you're wrong. I do agree that there's probably a portion of the population who could easily be convinced and swayed. If you don't believe it matters, why do you work for Snopes? No, I do believe it matters,

but what I'm saying is I'm not writing for the Candace Owens of the world. I'm writing for the people who go on the side or who are Googling this as a weight. Is this true? These are the people who go on the site or who are googling this as a wait, is this true? These are the people that we're trying to reach. I mean, look, they tried to tell us that COVID escaped from a lab and it was

debunked. And I'm kidding, I'm being sarcastic. Can I ask you what is a crazy story that you investigated and you found out it actually was true? Is there anything like completely nutty that you would think, well this can't be true and it turned out to be true? I mean...

Well usually the stuff that sounds nutty is nutty and is not true. I actually, so actually two or three days ago I went into I went, so there was this story about marjorie taylor green and um it started to spread all over it was all over x it was all over blue sky it was all over

basically the internet she's trans too can you imagine another one no no what came out was that uh she had bought shares of palantir palantir which as you probably know is this kind of you know uh big data company and they use this data for surveillance and and data analysis yeah and um she bought shares of palantir days, literally days before ICE so Immigration and Customs Enforcement gave Palantir a $30 million contract

and I was like there's no way there's no way and sure enough now this doesn't mean it's nefarious this doesn't mean this is insider trading because she has signed um kind of like she's given fiduciary uh duty to her like financial advisor supposedly she is very insulated from the decision her financial advisor does about or takes about her portfolio but it was like there's, it was like three days,

three days before. And when I went into this, I'm like, okay, this is just, you know, some people made this up or made it look bad. And I went into, you know, the public disclosures of traits that all Congress people have to do. And sure enough, three days before, you know, it doesn't seem crazy, but it's like, come on, like, please, like, you know, who,

who would do something like that? Because she sits on the Homeland Security, she sits on the Homeland Security Committee, House Committee, right? So, like, she would, she would probably have access to privilege information.

But no. I want to say, this whole notion of outlandish coincidences, they do happen. And there was one not long ago that was kind of like a recurring thing I keep in my head as a lesson. There was this guy, I think his name was Sicknick, Brian Sicknick. He was the cop on January 6th. And everybody said, and he got into it with some guys

and then he dropped dead and people were saying he got killed, his injuries led to him to die and then months later it came out no, he died completely independent, he died a couple days later of

whatever it was that had nothing to do with his experience on January 6th. He just, a guy had a fight on January 6th and he got, I think, bear poison or something in his face, whatever it is, and then he dropped dead or something,

told him unrelated two days later. Now, people are in jail on less evidence than that. You know, like, you mean to tell me that it's just coincidence? Yeah, from time to time. From time to time from

time to time it is just coincidence yeah i mean i don't and that's disconcerting i i don't i don't i don't believe like this this margin to leave the green story like i don't i don't necessarily think like i believe you know i you know if i have a portfolio like my financial advisor is doing making all those decisions i'm not even looking at until you know it's going up or down whatever i fully understand that this could be the case. But when I was looking at the rumor just kind of on its face, I was like, there's no way, there's no way. I don't think it's necessarily nefarious, right?

But these are the sorts of things that we see and we're like, hmm. If it happens twice. Yeah. But we run into these quite a bit, yeah. I would add, by the way, that not only did Comet live three years longer than the next

person but her record still hasn't been broken 20 years later yeah despite all the medical didn't somebody just die in brazil uh just a woman was it in brazil i can't remember recently and she was like i think 119 again something it's 119 it's like 20 27 all the all the musicians but a special bonus conspiracy before we go. Have you looked into the Jeffrey Epstein thing at all? I swear to God, I was just going to ask you if I could ask that. Oh, my God. Have we?

I haven't looked at it personally, but yes, of course, Snopes has looked into this stuff. And? I mean, there's... Why is Ghislaine Maxwell still alive? Yeah, I asked the same thing, actually. Why is she still alive? Is she still alive? Oh my, we're going into a parallel universe.

You know, I will say this, that there is this, what was his name, Acosta? I forget the first name, the guy who was, I think he's in the Trump administration now, or he was, oh my God, I'm losing my memory. But he was the guy who made the deal when he was a Florida district attorney or something to let Epstein get a light sentence. And it was reported that he – and I think he did tell somebody, well, you know, he was – I was told that he was intelligence. So that was like, oh, did he really say that?

But then I read the very detailed report that the Justice Department did about this. And it's very clear that, it seems very clear that he just said that to somebody. It's all hearsay, but he said it to somebody because he was so embarrassed about the fact that he let this guy go he came up with anything because obviously if he if jeff rathstein were intelligence the justice department wouldn't have brought the case to begin with and you know and they would they would and then in this report anybody can look it up, they ask him about it and they say his answers were, like he wouldn't stand behind it. And as you say, she's still alive.

Not only that, I was saying, in every single Hollywood blackmail movie, the person who is blackmailing somebody says to the blackmailee, listen, if anything should happen to me, there's a fault in my daughter. Everybody makes arrangements to have the information come out should anything happen to them. Because obviously Jeffrey Epstein would know they could just kill me.

So there's many reasons to think. That he killed himself. That he killed himself and that he was not Mossad. Also, the targets. What was Mossad doing blackmailing Bill Clinton? Ehud Barak. Do you think the evidence that he committed

suicide is sufficient? I believe it is sufficient. I looked into it. Yeah, I believe it's sufficient. I think, you know, I come from 10 years of work you know covering science and talking to scientists and my husband is also um you know he'd be like you know he former former volcanologist he did a lot of science and and you know we come from this you know the school of thought that you know the simplest explanation typically is the right one.

Le réseau de la combe. Did you say a volcanologist? Yeah. Is that somebody who studies volcanoes? He says Trekkie. He studies volcanoes. Volcanoes. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. You don't meet a volcanologist every day. No. Where did you meet him? Oh, it was a weird situation. We actually met at a distance. I was meet? Oh, it was a weird situation. We actually met at a distance. I was living in London.

He was in San Francisco. He actually moved on from volcanology. He's now, you know, he works for, like, he studied design and, like, you know, you know,

just graphic design and web design and all those things and he now works for, like, a design agency. But, yeah. And he's not French or Spanish.

No. We have to go. Unless you have anything else you want to tell us. No, but I do actually have a question for you. Yes. What do you think this would do, finding and proving this definitively, what do you think this would do to Candace Owens

and other conspiracy theories? Or is it just about this conspiracy in particular? Or do you think this is something that would really kind of end careers? Or what do you think this would do? It would not end careers, but it would marginalize her much more than she's marginalized now.

She's creeping towards some sort of respectability. And for the woman who said, I would bet my career on the fact that Brigitte Macron is a man, to be confronted with, obviously, then everything else she's ever said becomes viewed through that experience. Now, if Brigitte Macron actually is a man,

everything she said becomes viewed through that experience. She gets credibility. She was right when everyone said she was wrong. I mean, this is basic stuff. But we're at a place now where it's not just with regard to Candace Owens. People are ready to believe anything, and we need to fight this. I mean, that's what Snopes is all about, but it's not a minor matter

because when people will believe anything, anything can be true. And that's a scary world to live in. I mean, democracy, we've talked about this before. The whole theory of democracy is that populations have the wisdom to make weighty decisions for themselves. They can't make weighty decisions based on nonsense. It's garbage in, garbage out. And we need to fight this. We need to fight it.

I don't know why I think it's so serious, but I think it's really serious. I agree with you that those transvestigations are a serious matter. I do think that they have served a purpose. Again, she's not the first one. Michelle Obama got targeted about this. Obviously, she's denied it I don't know that this ever kind of went as far as it did with Macron

but I, you know, I agree that these conspiracy theories exist for a reason and I agree that the more muddled the informational landscape looks, the easier it is to kind of, you know, get some things done that is against, you know, what we understand as democracy, etc. No matter what you want to say and point out to that, you may be correct about the vaccine and certain age groups, especially those who've already had COVID or who might not need to take

it. The fact is that because of these conspiracy theories, many people who very much ought to have taken the COVID vaccine did not or have not taken it, and they died. Now, this is, I think, beyond any dispute, but there are probably 30% of the population who would listen to me and say, this guy's a fucking idiot. Does he really?

And people like Brett Weinstein, they're saying, who says that 9-11 was an inside job. He's saying, I think he said, or I'm pretty sure it was his. I don't like to get things wrong. I think it was him. Or maybe Dr. Malone, that COVID was planned. It was Dr. Malone. Was COVID was planned? No, it was both of them.

I'm replaying in my head that COVID was planned, that we know this because certain people made decisions early on which only makes sense if they had known that COVID was coming.

Now you have a population that believes that people in power are planning pandemics. This is totally destabilizing to America, to the world. You know, there are many countries, especially like in the Arab world, and I think in Russia too,

where they all believe conspiracy theories. They believe everything is a conspiracy. And these are not well-functioning societies. We need to have some faith in things. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, I look forward to your research when it turns up.

Fin? Fin. You're saying the end? How do you end in French? Fin? Au revoir. A tout à l'heure. You could say that.

Merci. A bientôt. And you, and you. Did you say, merci d'avoir écouté notre podcast? I'm all in for this. I'm out. You're doing this. Yeah, because I'm, listen, I'm going to have our drink,

but I am actually worried that when this podcast comes on that people are going to say, you see, they didn't prove the case. I feel like Candice Olson is going to be showing this clip and saying, look. I mean, listen, I know. The thing that we keep running into is that whatever you put out,

you're always going to have, and I think she would argue because, I mean, let's face it, like her job depends on it, right? Like her career depends on it. The ability that she has to make money depends on this. I don't think that she would let go of this theory. And by the way, you know, she's not really black. All right, on that note.

On that note. Thank you very, very much. Thank you for having me. Bye-bye.