The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Sparring with Libs of Tik Tok Founder Chaya Raichik

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

Chaya Raichik is the creator behind the Twitter account, Libs of TikTok, which has 1.7 million followers. She rose to fame over the past two years to become a prominent right-wing figure who is often platformed by Tucker Carlson. Originally, Libs of TikTok was anonymous but Raichik's identity was revealed by the Washington Post in April.   

This is Live from the Table, a Comedy Cellar-affiliated podcast coming at you on SiriusXM 99, Raw Dog, and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. This is Dan Natterman in studio with Noam Dwarman, owner of the world-famous Comedy Cellar. Show is Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, seven nights a week, and they always sell out. Perrie Lashenbrand is with us. She is the producer or the booker or whatever you want to call her. Or both.

Nicole Lyons is our audio wizard. She doesn't say a whole lot. That's not what she does. But she is a wizard with sound and video and audio. I said audio. I said sound, so I don't need to repeat audio. But in any audio. I said audio. I said sound. So I don't need to repeat audio. But in any case, I'm rambling a little bit.

Welcome. We have a guest tonight that I must say is a little bit disquieting because I hope she can be, you know, she sounds like a real right wing nut. This woman, Chaya Rachik, will be here in about 15 minutes. Well, we'll see. I mean, I didn't realize. I just know she's the Libs of TikTok lady. And, you know, she was prominent in this whole Twitter Files thing. And, you know, I enjoy, I think, I know Perry, I'll mind now, but I'm sure you do. I enjoy some of these, like, wacky, ultra left-wing videos that she reposts, you know, or some, you do. I enjoy some of these like wacky ultra left wing videos that she reposts or some school teacher out in the Midwest who's plotting to ram of days that she's – her views are quite – well, as they've been portrayed in the websites that I've read, they're quite extreme.

I haven't had a chance to see the unedited video. So we'll ask her. Yeah, we'll – some people in person, as we've noticed time and time again, once you get them in person, they're not quite as out there as you think. Yeah. And they are more reasonable than you think. I just like in a bigoted way assume since her name is Chaya, I assume that's her name, Chaya, right? Yeah. That somehow she'd be more reasonable.

Well, but some of these Orthodox, if she's Orthodox Jewish, and I guess that's what you're alluding to. Is she Orthodox? I have not found any evidence. Well, that sounds like the kind of name that an Orthodox Jewish woman would have and some of them are quite obviously... I don't think any Israeli could have that name. I don't think it's a particularly Israeli name. Chaya, sure.

Chaya can... It sounds more like Yiddish-y. Yeah, that's true too, but Chaya... I mean... But we'll find out. It's very interesting. We'll find out. No, and before we get to that, I was at – last night Gotham Comedy Club had their January holiday party.

Oh, no. Why were you there? Because I – Traitor. Something to do, and you didn't have a holiday party. Are you going to? Usually in January you have the January – Usually like in February or March.

Oh, is it February or March? Yeah. Well, I wasn't aware I was not supposed to go to other holiday parties. It's okay, Dan. Get used to it. All right. Get used to Gotham. I don't work at Gotham very often, but they invited me for whatever reason to their holiday party.

What was the party like? It was fun. It was a lot of people. You know, open bar. Anybody famous there? Famous? No. Nobody famous.

No, I can't think of anybody famous. And how many people would you say were there? Maybe 100? Did they have a tattoo artist uh i know i don't think they had a tattoo artist are you gonna have a they had a band they had a band and then they had a hand we don't have i think somebody maybe was drawing caricatures i believe and bands are annoying djs are better i think ah well they had a band they had an open bar and they had some food. All drinks? Like you could order any top shelf liquor? Well, I don't know. I just had a martini, but kettle martini.

So is that top shelf? Yeah, that is top shelf. Okay. Top shelf, open bar. Yeah. No tattoo artist. And then there was some dancing downstairs because, you know, they have two floors at Gotham. Oh, they have two floors.

We have two floors. Right. Anyhow, so I don't know. So was it better than our party? I wasn't at your last. I was I had COVID, I believe, the last No, I didn't have COVID. Maybe I was in Ruru. But I don't know. For some reason, I didn't

go to the last party last year. I went to the last party. I have to say that I've very few things I've seen cooler than a tattoo artist. I mean, people were getting tattoos. She was completely booked out. It was brilliant of Liz to just give everybody an open bar,

get them shit-faced, and then throw a tattoo artist in front of them and sprinkle in peer pressure. This is really just a great combination. Well, did anybody, comics get tattoos? Yeah. I left. I couldn't.

I don't think anybody's going to get a tattoo who wasn't already planning on getting a tattoo. Like, Dan's not going to get shit-faced and stumble and get a tattoo. No, that wouldn't. I don't think Ryan Hamilton, you know. Obviously, the people that were going to get tattoos are probably tattoo-oriented people. Anyway. In the old days, Christmas staff parties were the stuff of legends. You would look forward to them all year.

People would hook up right and left. Like just all sorts of great, awesome stories would happen and sex. And now – and I was single, right? Now I'm married and every one of these things is a potential lawsuit so literally nothing about these these parties is appealing to me anymore i i i want to have them because i think they're good for the you know the staff deserves them you know and it's good for the kind of culture of the place and and they're fun. But, you know, now all I worry about is people hooking up and having sex,

and everything that used to be the things to look forward to are all the things to not want to have the party anymore. Well, what about this idea that you have the party? They've killed this world. I'm sure Chaya will agree with me. Go ahead. Well, I'm sure people are still hooking up plenty, but the parties are in January,

February, or March. Who came up with this idea of a post-holiday holiday party? Liz. Not me. I used to like the party to be like the third, January 3rd.

That's why I used to like to do it. But even that's still post-holiday. Yeah, I know. Well, you can't really do it pre-holiday because places open every night. No, but the fun of a holiday party is that everybody's in the holiday mood. No, what I still like to do is right after

New Year's Eve when everybody works like crazy that entire week and then everybody just cuts loose on either the 2nd or 3rd of January. It's still pretty close to the holidays. You're still pretty much in that holiday thing. But then it was just like Liz, you know, I don't do as much of the work anymore. Liz does all the work. And she puts a lot of work into this party.

It was just too much for her. So our compromise was to have it later in the year. And you know what? People seem to get in the swing of it. Look, a party is never a bad thing. I have always maintained, and if long-time listeners of this podcast will know that I have always, my position on this matter has not changed. I believe holiday parties should be at holiday time.

And I think once holiday time is over, it's over. It's not a gradual fade out of holidays. So no holiday party this year? Well, no, I said a party is better than no party. Okay. Yes, Periel's raising her hand. Periel? I would like permission to bring up a point.

Go ahead. You have permission. Okay, but what's the point? Well, it's a talking point. Yes. We got an email that I forwarded to both of you that neither one of you responded to. Responded to. Yes.

I like the way like you're very quick about these things. It's good. Go ahead. And it said that the beauty of the podcast. The beauty of the podcast. For what it's worth, I love the substantive political and intellectual discussions. And I love the comedy. I think what makes this show work is that some episodes are comedy and show business centered,

but Gnome is there to intersperse some real substantive questions between the jokes, which really help the listeners get to know the guests beyond a superficial level. You want me to stop? I can stop.

You guys can override this. This is not how you do it. But listen, this is the thing, Perrielle. Well, that's one person's opinion. Don't ask the people who listen. Ask the people who don't listen. Well, they're not

listening. Yeah, but they're they will tell us what we're doing wrong. Well, that's why I talk. The people who listen, they're obviously happy with what we're doing. Well, you guys always say, please write in. And now we're getting people writing in. It's like you have an empty pizzeria. You ask the customers that are there, I would love your pizza.

That's why we come here. Well, well. Okay, but how come the place next door has a line on the clock? You're half right. You'll have to ask those people. You're half right because people who listen might think it could be even better. And then we need to know how to do that. I'd say that's three quarters right.

But that's why I constantly ask Nicole her opinion because here she's somebody that she's only listening because she's working here. You got to wake her. The problem is it's very hard to read Nicole. I do my best with it. Her response is always the same. It's good. I don't mean to compare Nicole, but have you ever had a girlfriend who was hard to read Nicole. I do my best with it. Her response is always the same. It's good. Have you ever had a, I don't mean to compare Nicole, but have you ever had a girlfriend who was hard to read? I've had that. It's the worst.

It's like they're just like straight, you don't know what they're thinking. Like my wife is like pretty much the opposite of hard to read. Right. I was just going to say that. Well, are Latinas ever difficult to read? I'm not going to flatten Latinas into one racist clump in preparation for Chaya. But I would say that my wife is the equivalent of like one of those huge type books, you know, like they have for people who can't.

She's not hard to read. She's like, she bashes you over the head. She's so easy to read. And Nicole, of course, is Irish. And, you know, Freud said the Irish are the only people impervious to psychotherapy. So I don't know if there's. Didn't he say that? Who said that?

Freud. Freud said the Irish. I think so. I think that was a line. That's racist, too. In Good Will Hunting. I don't know. Anyway. But a lot of Irish people go to therapy. I think that was a line in Good Will Hunting. I don't know.

Anyway. But a lot of Irish people go to therapy. But maybe they go and it's not working. I was just trying to introduce the notion that perhaps one of the best parts of the show is what you two have been sort of at odds about. That could be. So I just wanted to introduce that. Oh, you could have just said that. Yeah, but you wouldn't have taken it seriously if you thought it was my idea.

Listen. True or false? My actual thoughts about this show are so dark. And so ugly that I just can't share them. Don't do that. It'd be funny if you just cut off like that in the last episode of Sopranos. Thank you for posting.

Noam posted a clip. Louis C.K. went on some podcast and said that one of my jokes was his favorite new joke. The joke about the banana and the sex ed teacher, Mr. Morales. And so Noam did like a mashup. But he had somebody. I paid for somebody to do this. To make the to show Louis saying my favorite new joke. Dan Adler has a joke about the about his sex ed teacher that said, hey, kids. And then it fades into my

actually doing the joke. Yes. Which which was Noam hired somebody to caption it and make it nice. Actually, I did a lot of it myself. Anyway, he put it on the this is what really was helpful as he put it on the comedy. All right. No, I'm God. No, Mr. Berkey. He put it on the, this is what really was helpful, is he put it on the comedy, all right, Noam has tuberculosis.

He put it on the comedy seller Instagram, and it got me about a thousand new Instagram followers. It's not life-changing or anything like that, but it's a big, well, I, you know me, a glass is not half full, but. A thousand? I'm, you know, I'm, you know, me, a glass is not half full, but, um, a thousand about, I think by now, cause it was a few, when I spoke to spoke to you last, it was whatever. Louis Louis wants to take it down. So does he really? No. Well, I'm, it's all done anyway.

Cause I'm not going to get too many new followers. Now you get everything you get, like, you know, right away or whatever, but, um, yeah. So the, the, the comedy seller Instagram feed has about 100,000 followers. I'm trying to now... Did you put on the TikTok one? I don't know. I'm trying to digitize.

I asked Liz to. I'm trying to digitize all our archives so that I can really start producing archival clips. And it's very, very expensive. Expensive because they're all on VHS tape and you've got to then put them. Like the cheapest one is $15 a tape. We have, you know. Thousands.

Thousands. So I think I'm just going to get a supercomputer myself and get like eight different USB digitizing things and maybe just buy eight VCRs and see if I can do them all myself. Like I'll get up in the morning and just put them in. DVDs should be more easy because it's not,

obviously a DVD is not constrained by the actual time but VHS, you have to play it as long as the tape is in order to digitize it. It's a great idea.

DVD, you can... You posted something. Patrice O'Neill had an old video that you recently posted. Yeah, I found that. It was very funny.

The quality of the video, of course, wasn't great because... Does that matter? I don't know. I mean, I assume it matters somewhat. I don't know. No, it doesn't matter. I have a new favorite joke. Go ahead.

It's Dan Natterman. Yeah, I know Dan Natterman. So I'm going to quote one of his jokes. He's talking about sex ed in school. He says, my teacher gave us sex education. He brought in a banana and he said children i'm going to teach you how to put on a condom that's why i have this banana with me because uh i can't get hard on an empty stomach and uh and say what you will about mr morales's

teaching techniques i remembered how to put a condom on some guy puts a condom on a banana you could forget that right but a guy puts a condom on a banana. You can forget that. But a guy puts a condom on his rock hard. Especially when you're the one that got him hard. Because I was hoping for class participation credit. Anyhow. Anyway, Chaya. Chaya Raychik is with us. Hello, Chaya.

Hi, how are you? Yeah, we've got you. Oh, my God, there she is. Chaya Raychik, everybody, is the woman behind the right wing Twitter account Libs of TikTok, which has 1.7 million followers, at least as of the writing of this bio. And she has been platformed by Tucker Carlson, among others. Anyhow, she also showed her face for the first time. She was initially anonymous, but showed her face for the first time on Carlson's Fox News show on December 27th and vowing to do more in-person events. Welcome, Chaya Rachik, to Live from the Table. following you for a long time. And your general story was a sympathetic one to me in terms of free speech and the way you're treated improperly by Twitter and all that. Until recently, really just today, I asked a friend to send me some questions that I might

ask you. And they alerted me to some things that you had said on talk of carlson uh about the lgbt community i was only able to see them um not in their entirety so perhaps they were taken out of context so i want to give you a chance to respond to all that before we get into the other stuff go ahead yeah so just one correction it wasn't about the lgbt community it was about the lgbtq community LGBTQ community, which is a really big distinction. So the Q is not, the Q has become a political identity. And I have videos posted of that where trans activists and people who post gender ideology actually admit that, that Q, that Q is not just an identity that a person feels, it's actually a political identity. And what I mean by that is people who want to push gender ideology onto children. So that's one thing that I very specifically said LGBTQ because of that distinction. And I obviously was referring to activists and people who hide behind the

LGBT acronym in order to push their far left agenda. I'm obviously not referring to all LGBT people. I think that. I mean, I don't want to put any words in your mouth because, uh, I don't want anybody to think that I'm leading you in any way to either to help you or to hurt you. But if you would comment, I think it would, it would be interesting to be able to know

what is your general feeling about gay people, gay added, you know, the gay issues, gay marriage, all that, you know, what's, what's, where do you come from on all that stuff? I don't see why any of that is relevant. Like there's, I've never, I've never, there's no evidence that, that I'm homophobic. They call me that if you open up Google and search my name, um, all of those articles from obviously left wing media will call me that, but there's no evidence of that. And I just don't see how any of that is relevant. I think that it's very obvious what I stand for. I stand for protecting the innocence of children. I'm against grooming.

I am against gender ideology being pushed in our schools. And I think everybody knows that. It could not be relevant. I would agree with you. But if you're a religious person of any religion and you, for instance, oppose gay marriage, I would want I wouldn't tar you with that in terms of, you know, saying that you were anti that your political beliefs represented that. On the other hand, if you were to say something quite the opposite, like for instance, you're very pro-gay marriage, you're very, you know, you have a social life filled with associations

with gay people, that would, I think, be relevant to people in terms of trying to pigeonhole you as some sort of hateful person. No, I think that all just sounds defensive. I'm not here to defend myself. It's like saying I'm not racist because I have a black friend. You know, that's what you just said that I don't, I don't like agree with that. I think that's silly. It's stupid. Um, and you're

just getting into a narrative where you're, where, where you have to defend yourself and, and, and use these like really silly comparisons. Yeah, I get it. You know, that, that's some of my best friends are black thing. I, that argument actually I think gets a bum rap because I think it is always relevant to me. If somebody is like accused of a certain attitude about black people and I find out that their wife is black and their kids are black and their friends are black. I do find that relevant. I, I, you know, like,

Okay. We could, we could disagree. disagree i i think it i think it just sounds defensive and i i'm not going to engage in those types of arguments all right okay fair enough so you had said that so so again not to put words in your mouth so when you said that lgbtq and you use the word evil i was referring to activists and groomers. And what are groomers? Behind the acronym of LGBTQ and there are a lot of them. And I don't know, I'm not up on this issue. What are groomers? Groomers are people who want to steal childhood innocence and convince children to join, to become part of this group that pushed gender ideology,

which is very harmful to kids. And gender ideology is, I know a lot of it has to do with, you know, early transitioning for children. What else does it have to do with? It's that, and it's basically just confusing children about their identity. It's making kids question their identity, telling kids that they can make decisions about their, their identity.

And all those things I think are really dangerous. And you're asking, sorry. Yeah. Well, before I do that, so let me just tell the listeners. So this is where I'm torn on this. And then really, I do want to get to the other stuff where where. You know, we'll be more on the same side. As I'm a parent. And. As much as I'm sympathetic to not wanting the schools to be teaching my kids about gender stuff. And I have friends who, uh,

have transgender children who are resentful of, uh, things in the way they're, they are, uh, the bureaucracy is, uh, pressuring them. Parents who love their children very, very much. Um, as much as I'm sympathetic to a lot of these things, I, you know, I'm reluctant to to really get on board with the thing that I know the anti-Semites are saying, because it just makes me uncomfortable, even though an anti-Semite may say something I agree with about Israel. Right. So I was trying to discern where you're coming from on this, but it's your prerogative.

So go ahead. What do you want to ask? Well, I wanted to ask if you feel that there's any place in the schools to address the reality that trans people exist and that, you know, should it, in your estimation, is it a discussion to be had at all in schools? And if so, at what age might one start that discussion? Well, I'm coming from the baseline that a kid can't be transgender. I don't think any kid is old enough to make that decision. So I don't believe there's such a thing as a transgender child. There are children who are suffering from gender dysphoria, there are children suffering from mental illnesses, there are children suffering from confusion about their identity. And I really feel for those students and for those kids, I wish they would get help. I don't think the way to help them is to just affirm their identity and whatever they say they are, because the reality is a young child can't decide to be the other gender.

Do you think that a 10-year-old kid can decide to be the opposite gender? I do think a 10-year-old kid could, as you said, could have dysmorphia disorder. And I should get help for that. Dysphoria. Dysphoria. dysmorphia disorder and i i should get help for that dysphoria and i and and and identify i do think a 10 year old kid could identify as a 10 year old girl and then the question becomes what's the best way to help that child and that i don't know except that a lot of research suggests that the best way to help that child is transitioning. Well, I'll just say. There's research that suggests otherwise. Yeah.

They couldn't transition. I mean, they need counseling. Whatever they need, would it be wrong for a teacher to say to her class, this phenomenon exists, it's quite widespread? At 10 years old, then, well, I, at what age then would it be? Because if a 10 year old child is feeling that way and maybe thinking, holy shit, I'm the only one and there's nothing I can do about it. I think it's worthwhile to let that child know that you're not the only one. Well, okay. So I mean, I don't want to speak for high, but see, this is where I get, you know, upset

about it because, not upset, but worried about it because I know school teachers. They're not experts on anything like this. Shouldn't we educate them, educate children that this is something that if you're going through this, you're not the only one, you're not you know,

you're not crazy, and who's supposed to do that do that well i don't know do you believe that a parent the average parent has their child's best interest at heart do you believe that obvious i think that goes without saying so parents are looking out for their child parents can have a a conversation. There is, I'm not going to deny and say that there might be a tiny, tiny percentage of parents, a handful of parents who would not help their child if their child has gender dysphoria. And then those kids, they should get help elsewhere. But that most parents 99.999% of parents, I think, have their child's best interest at heart.

I want to help their child. So I don't think the school really should be involved in all this. Yeah, and I tend to agree with you. I don't know. I can't think of every scenario. Let me give you an example by analogy of something that concerns me. And what I'm saying is like, if what I'm about to tell you is true,

you can only imagine what's going on in the schools I have a friend a lifelong friend who became transgender as an adult she's a woman now and I was speaking to her recently and she's complaining about being run down like foggy in the brain, memory things, you know. And I said to her, you know, this is the classic symptoms of low testosterone. If you just, you know, if you see any commercial for low testosterone, what they describe is exactly what you're describing. I said, when your doctor puts you on all these hormone blockers, did they discuss with you the consequences

of low testosterone? Because she was born a man. She's like, no, I know nothing about that. I said, well, you should probably go ask the doctor about this stuff. Maybe they can give you a little. I'm not a doctor. I don't know. But it occurred to me that I can't prove this, that perhaps this is so politicized that the doctor didn't even feel comfortable warning her that, yes, you know, this the benefits you'll you'll you know, you won't have. Whatever it is, a testosterone does to you any longer, but you are still a biological male and you are going to suffer all the consequences of low testosterone. You would think that would be absolutely required for a doctor to discuss with somebody who's going to take something treatment like that. But no, they didn't do that. So that kind of. And this is an adult, right? An adult. So that kind of politicization, adult to adult, is so worrisome

that I can only imagine what happens when it comes to children. You don't have to imagine because there's so much evidence out there of what is happening when it comes to children. There's also a lot of evidence. Do you understand my point? Do you think there's something legitimate to it?

Yes, I do. I absolutely do think that there's that that that is legitimate. But I also can say that I worked on a book a few years ago where we photo book with the photographer Mark Seliger and he photographed 50 men and women who are trans. And I did the interviews and I wrote the interviews and every single one of them reported that when they were young. Yeah, but that's another issue. No, it's not. That's exactly what I was saying. She said that she doesn't think that a child can be transgender. She's saying, I think what she said, she could remember that, is that if a child is expressing these issues,

that that is up to the parent. That's right. To take them to a doctor or whatever it is. And it's the business of the parent and that family, not of the public school bureaucracy. Yes. But she also said, unless I'm mistaken, that she doesn't think that any child can be transgender.

Right. All right. What do you mean by no? Do you believe that? Do you believe that any child can be transgender. Right. All right. What do you mean by no? Do you believe that? Do you believe that some people who are born trans, some people are actually transgender? Do you think transgenderism is a real thing? Yeah.

I mean, there are transgender people, of course. And you think there, and do you think they are that way at children? I took it. I may have misunderstood you. I took you to mean that there's no way to tell at 10 years old,

whether someone is an example of what would later become in your opinion, a transgender person or. There's no way for a child to know and to make the decision to be transgender. They're too young. Their brains are not fully developed. They can't make that decision. Well, look, all I can say, Perrielle, is that if you read about this stuff. And I have read extensively. All right. All right. All right. There are reasonable people, doctors, Jesse Single, you know, who have written people who are sympathetic to LGBT causes, LGBTQ. I don't know the difference, causes who feel that this is not a settled matter and that people shouldn't be villainized for wanting to go slowly about something as serious as puberty blockers or surgery for young children.

And certainly, as I say, to the extent that it is discussed with the children and it is discussed with the children's parents, it has to stay within the realm of so-called experts because, you know, even the experts get it wrong, but that, um, public school teacher or school teachers are simply repeating something they've been told to say. They're repeating a party line. And if that, and, and it's very tempting to, to sign off on that. If that party line is something that you are sympathetic to, but that's not rigorous. That's not rigorous. No.

Yeah. Would it be fair for a teacher simply to say trans people exist? Some of you might be trans. Talk it over with your parents. I'll tell you, you know,

I have no, I'm sure I disagree with Chaya. My kids are very exposed to this stuff. We had trans friends. As I say, we had trans people in the house, blah, blah, blah. So I don't really care what they're told in school. Having said that, I can't speak for every parent.

I can't speak for parents who are religious. I can't speak for parents who come from other cultures. And I think we all send our kids to school to teach them to read and write and do math. And the schools are doing a bad enough job at that as it is. And there is something inside me, call it conservative, which says that if you're going to require parents to send their children, they have no liberty here. Unless you want to homeschool. You have to send your kids to these schools. That the school should limit itself to teaching

academics and leave controversial topics to the families themselves. I don't need to agree with these families, and I probably will not agree with these families on what their attitudes are about this

or about premarital sex or about race or about many other issues. What about drug use? We were bombarded as children. I was with anti-drug messages at school. I don't think anti-drug messages are controversial. And I think drug use is, I mean, I get your point. There is some continuum here, but I don't think any parent is outraged at the idea that the schools who are grappling with drug use in the schools are trying to teach their children not to take drugs. I don't think that's the strongest counterexample. There is something that's always rubbed me the wrong way about force feeding children, especially impressionable children, especially

impressionable children, young children. And I want to say again, this is not because I agree with Kaya on this issue. I'm pretty sure I disagree with her on most of it. I mean, you know me pretty well. You know, I disagree on some of this stuff. But the idea of of force feeding children, something that the parents are deeply offended with and getting to do it because by law you have to send your kids to school that dynamic has always disturbed me and it seems to me that every parent who supports it it's only because they haven't been in a situation with something they deeply disagree with is being force into their children. Teach them to read, teach them to do math, teach them to do, to

write, and history and all that, and leave parenting to the parents for the most part. Now, I could be convinced, you know, and there's some, there are some tragic stories, you know, where maybe you could tell me the scenario and say, yeah, I guess in that

case, you know, I would kind of support the guidance counselor stepping in or something like that. I haven't thought it through altogether, but I do want to just say that there should be a line drawn between the parent rights and which, or or and the parents rights if you happen to agree with the parents. So, for instance, it wasn't that long ago. It was in our lifetime that Joe Biden was in favor of, you know, defensive marriage act. Bill Clinton was in favor of defensive marriage act. Barack Obama was against gay marriage. Right. This was This was very, very mainstream. Democrats were running on against gay marriage. Then Obama and Biden changed their minds. You know, elite people,

cosmopolitan, educated. And the second they changed their minds, every parent they left behind became a monster. The second Barack Obama decided gay marriage was OK. Every horrible Christian parent somewhere in the South who might not agree with them, they were fine, right? They were mainstream. I'm with Obama. Now they're monsters. And now that the school has a right. So this is not doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, in my i'm for gay marriage gay marriage is the law now and i'm not and i and i think just to in case i was wondering i don't think any teacher who's

married should have to deny that he's in a gay marriage anything like that that's that's not what i'm saying i'm just saying that let's not be so judgmental it was only a very short while ago where all these virtuous people were on the other side of some of these issues. And you cannot expect everybody to get the memo when Barack Obama does. Some people are coming from much different backgrounds where it's, this is a much bigger pill to swallow for them. And these are tough issues. That's all. Chaya, I don't know what you want to, you're the guest. I'm talking too much. Go ahead, Chaya. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I agree with a lot of what you said. And I think one thing that stuck with me,

you mentioned the teachers are doing this because they're told to, right? And I agree with that. I think a lot of these teachers, the ones featured in my account, I don I think a lot of these teachers and once featured in my account I don't think a lot of them actually realize what they're doing I think they're kind of just got brainwashed and we're seeing that not just with teachers with people in other professions to doctors social workers these people they were all brainwashed by, I don't even know. I mean, I think it's so much deeper. And it's been obviously happening for decades, right? It's been slowly building up to this.

And I mean, my goal is, is to expose it, eradicate gender ideology in America, I think that would be great. And I think you're not always going to agree with, not everyone who follows me is always going to agree with me. So there's going to be a lot of disagreements. But I think the majority of Americans don't want their children to have porn in school, for example, which is something that's happening in many, many schools. They don't want their children to be taught that they could change their gender when they're 10 years old. So to be clear, I disagree with you probably on gender ideology a lot. I'm much more pro it than you would be, but I do tend to agree with you that the, um, the public school or the, I keep saying public schools, but the schools, grammar schools,

especially grammar schools, children, you know, below high school age. Uh, I, I would not, I'm not a, I would agree with you that that they're too young and the teachers lack too much expertise to have that going on in the schools, in my opinion. Look, I'm trying to be defend myself to criticism. I haven't heard yet about the show. So forgive me if I go overboard on it, but but credit me with the with the courage, at least to do the show. Right.

I. I, I, I'm not I'm not comfortable. And now I'm less comfortable. I wish I hadn't found out like some of the stuff you used to post on TikTok was so like funny and over the top and I I'm less comfortable now knowing that some of this

may come from kind of a mocking place of of people who this may come from kind of a mocking place of, of people who, whether you think they're born trans or whether you think they have a psychological issue, whatever, whatever it is that you think is going on. These are people who are in distress and need help. That's exactly what I said a couple minutes ago. So I don't

know why you're saying that. I didn't mean to go ahead. I feel for people who have gender dysphoria and who have mental illness, like half of my account is just basically raising awareness about the mental health crisis in America, which I think needs to be focused on more. I have a lot of sympathy for people suffering. And I just don't think the way to deal with that is to just accept and affirm everything that a five-year-old child tells you. Do you think, so what would you say to parents of a five-year-old child that allows their kid to go to school in female clothes and skirts because the child is more comfortable that way? What should those parents do when the child insists, I want to go to school in girls' clothes and as much as possible be a girl?

What would your parents do, do you think, in that situation? I think it's not just an issue of I want to go to school in girls' clothes. I think it's something deeper. Also of I want to go to school in girls clothes. I think it's something deeper. Also, I'm not a parent, I don't have children. I'm also not a professional. I'm not a social worker. But I think it's, it's not just I want to go in girls clothes. It's there's, there's always something deeper, there was something beforehand. A five-year-old doesn't just wake up and insist on dressing like a girl. I just don't think,

because they really think they're a girl, I just don't think that that is really happening without other steps before that. You don't know that. You don't know that. It could be. I've seen a lot of stories like that. Would you agree that if the parent wants to send their kids to school in a dress,

I would say that's up to the parent. The school has no say in that either. That would be my opinion. I mean, they might have like dress codes in uniform. I'm just saying like if, if the, see, if, if the parent has decided my, my daughter is trans and, and she's going to go to school in a dress, I've consulted with my doctors, whatever, whatever it is, that's, that's also none of my business in my opinion. So we, so we disagree. It's okay. I don't think that a five-year-old could decide to be transgender. Their brain is not developed. But you have to take that up with the doctors, not with the school.

The school, school can't override the doctor. If a doctor says this is what's best for this child, how can the school say, no, it's not. The school doesn't have that expertise in my opinion. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, yeah, I think that's another issue that doctors, it's not just teachers that are brainwashed into this. It's also doctors and social workers, like I mentioned earlier. Right. I understand that's your position, but there has to be a rule which is good for the goose and good for the gander.

I'm coming from the philosophy that the schools don't really know. The schools don't have the expertise to untangle all this and that the that for better or for worse that is going to have to be something the family does with their medical and mental health professionals and when that family medical and medical health professional organization a group comes to a conclusion about what is best for that child then I think we have to respect that. We might think, my God, that's absolutely the wrong thing. I wish that parent wasn't doing that. I feel for that child. If that were my child, I'd never allow that. But this is not our business at that point, in my opinion. Now, you can have another movement to try to reform

the medical health community. And this is even in New York Times is now running articles about how this puberty blockers and stuff like this may may that we may have jumped into it too eagerly. And other countries have stopped this altogether. This is all legitimate stuff to argue about. But in the end, when it comes to a child. I don't see how you can pick and choose. If it's the parents, then it's the parents and they're going to have to decide. And that's my opinion. I don't, I don't, I don't mean to put you on the spot. So, so unless you have more to say about this, we can go on to the easier stuff. Well, I mean, I just think that, and I keep saying

this, it's a much deeper issue. You have to go back decades to really how this all started in order to untangle it. So what you're saying would make sense with all that without all of that other history over the last few decades of how gender ideology started. Because it's looking at it in a really simplistic view, right? A child says they're trans, the mother takes the kid to a doctor, you know, who has this license and who went to school. And the doctor says, yes, your child is trans, but they can wear a dress and give them puberty blockers. If you just look at it like that without any history, then, yeah, it's like, what's my business? The doctor knows best. The parents helping their child.

Let me give you a good analogy. I forget what country it is. Some country either did or wants to outlaw circumcision. Because there is a good body of evidence out there, disturbing, by the way, that circumcision is traumatic, unnecessary, interferes with sexual pleasure, archaic. I mean, you could just pile it all on there, right? And a school could certainly decide, or a country could certainly decide, listen, you shouldn't be circumcising. You're a male. I don't care what your religious beliefs are.

You're not going to do that anymore. Now that's troubling. And my outlook on it is protective against that. Say, yeah, whatever, but you know what? This is traditionally between the parents and the child, and it's a very, very big step, only to be done in the most extreme and clear-cut cases for the state to put itself between the decisions of a parent and a child, even for

circumcision. In a country which wants to outlaw or a country which wants to go down the road that you're going down, where people are going to start intervening in this kind of decisions, it becomes very easy to, well, it doesn't just stop there. Well, let's take a look at everything these parents are deciding for their kids. Maybe we shouldn't be allowing them to circumcise their kids. So there is there's a there's a analytical danger there, I think. And I think that my way of looking at it is is conservative, actually. It's respectful of what you said earlier, which is that nobody cares more about the child than the parents and it's protective against unintended consequences of future issues where the state may want to decide they know what's better

than the parents and the and their child's doctors for the child so that you know who knows i mean circumcision is a whole separate topic i'm'm Jewish. So, you know, the Torah talks about circumcision. And obviously, I believe that the Torah is the eternal truth. So I believe circumcision is good. So that's not something, I think. Anyway. So listen, listen, listen, one thing about you, you have a right to your opinions. And it's we don't live in a good time where I mean, when I was a kid. People like, you know, Oprah or Phil Donahue or CNN, they would have people on who had opinions that were, you know, considered much more outside the mainstream than, than yours might be. And, and people thought, well, that's just a good example of people being able to discuss things, you know? So, um, I think it's good that you're on the show and I think it's good that you, that, that you're able to discuss this stuff. I hope you think we're being respectful of your opinions, even to the extent that we don't agree with you. And, uh, I hope that other places will let you come on and discuss it. I fear that the, that the reason you agree with you. And I hope that other places will let you come on and discuss it. I fear that the, that the reason you're, you're a very famous person now. And I

kind of fear that the reason we were able to get you on our podcast is because other places are afraid to have you on. And, and that would be terrible because people need to be able to hear what you have to say and decide for themselves. I think you're the only non like right wing podcast that reached out. Yeah. Yeah. I'm open to going on. I offered I offered Taylor Lorenz from the Washington Post to do a live stream with me. She declined. I would go on. Sure. I'd go on CNN and MSNBC, but I don't think those invitations are coming. Did she say why she declined? Because I have a feeling that she declined not because, I mean, I know she, she, you know, has totally disagrees with you, but I bet you the reason she declined was not because she wouldn't like to

talk to you was because she's afraid of the, of the fallout from talking to you. Yeah. You're probably not going to get the true response from Taylor Lorenz. Yeah, I think it is. It's, well, you're probably not going to get the true response from Taylor Lorenz. Yeah, I think it is. It's, I know I'm pretty controversial. Um, and I think that when you really get into it, a lot of their views probably won't hold up to scrutiny. Um, which is why they hate my account because I post things that they're saying and their views just don't hold up. So I think that's part of it too. All right. Leave it, leaving aside your, your views on LGBTQ.

And, and I will underline for you in your behalf that you, that you say that you're distinguishing between the activist thing and that, that you, you're not that we shouldn't confuse that with your hatred of gay people. That's, that's, that's what you're referring to. Yes. Yeah. And I, and I, I have no reason to doubt you. And I, and I certainly hope that's true because I mean, we, you know, I just, I just hope that that's true. So having said that, you were taking, how many Twitter followers do you have?

1.7 million. How much has it increased since Musk took over? Probably about 300,000 to 400,000. 300,000 to 400,000. So you were on a tell, tell us all about what, what did you, what did you learn about the way you were handled by Twitter when Taibbi and Barry Weiss and all these people, uh, came out with all this stuff? Yeah. I mean, I felt entirely vindicated because I was so, so careful to follow all the rules because I knew that they were out to get me. And I knew I never violated the rules and they kept suspending me anyways. It's also, our attorney mentioned that it was a sort of defamation on Twitter's part to suspend me and say I violated the rules while knowing I never did. And then obviously, the left wing media, all the activists, everyone,

they obviously right away started talking me like, Oh, she violated the rules. She's hateful. So Twitter suspending me and saying I was hateful, engage in hateful conduct, enabled all those people to, to say that I'm hateful. And now we find out that it's all just not true. The Twitter employees admitted that I never violated the rules. They just were looking for reasons to suspend me. So very validating for me. And the hateful conduct was now, now, now I want you to, I'm going to ask the question. I really want you to think about the answer. Was it 100% simply posting other videos that they, is that what they called

hateful conduct? Or was there any sprinkling in of your own commentary on these things, which they would consider hateful? Is, is right wing commentary hateful? Is that what you're saying? No, not, not, not, of course not by definition, but I'm just wondering if they said that it was hateful. Your curation was hateful or was it that, okay, you posted this, uh, this, you know, this, uh, video, but what was hateful was not the video. It was what you said. And did they give you any specific examples? So there, there was what you said. And did they give you any specific examples? So there, there was no specific examples. They, they never like suspended me for like misgendering, for example, or for threatening violence or whatever. They never suspended me

for that. It was just broadly hateful conduct. Um, sometimes it was for a specific tweet. They would tell me that tweet was hateful conduct. Those tweets did not have commentary. They didn't. So give us an example of what they, of a tweet that they considered hateful. If you can. Um, I'm trying to remember. There was like maybe three and then the rest were just general. Um, general. Yeah, so there was one where this person was talking about, I believe it was

Leah Thomas. It might have been a different athlete or was athletes in general, having them be able to use, so having a male be able to use a female locker room and restroom, specifically in sports, I believe. And she was basically saying that it's like transphobic and homophobic to not want Leah Thomas to be able to change in a woman's restroom. So I post the video and I said something like not wanting a male to change to use a female restroom is transphobic or problematic or something. That's what I wrote. Well, they would say that's misgendered

because you said male. Well, I mean, Leah is a male. So you can change your, there are two sexes. So you could get surgery, you could wear the opposite gender clothing, but I believe there are still two sexes. And that's what science says. Right i i understand your position on that but but

and also i'm not even sure if it was specifically leah i think it i'm trying to remember i said in the beginning i don't know if it was leah or if it was athletes in general but but you're kind of saying there's no such thing as misgendering. But as you're describing it, they would say that when your commentary, this is why you could put it. When you see a male using the locker room, blah, blah, blah. So they're saying, well, that's that's hateful. That's misgendering. Look, I'm not. I mean, I have to see the tweet. I'm very much in favor of people to say pretty much whatever they want to say, although I

don't want anybody bullied and I don't want any individual misgendered. We talk about this a couple of. I disagree. I don't think that's misgendering because when you say male, female, you're referring to biological sex. I didn't say man, which could be considered misgendering. It's the biological sex. So I think the facts and the science are on my side. Well, I would have allowed that tweet, I think, based on my previous

shows where I tried to decide what I would allow and wouldn't allow, because I think the issue is certainly something people have a right to talk about. I wouldn't want you to take a specific person and make fun or make light or even, you know, criticize their gender or whatever it is, because I don't think that's helpful to any debate. And I think it's it's hurtful. But this particular issue of what

shouldn't and should and should not be allowed in locker rooms with our children, this is a real issue. And people have a right to discuss this stuff as I mean, we're getting close to the idea that if you can prove to me that people are upset by it, therefore it shouldn't be on Twitter. And that's dangerous as hell. People can be upset. People can be offended. People can be angry.

That doesn't, that's not an argument that says this position made people angry. Therefore, it shouldn't be on Twitter. No, but I ask you a question. If if if your daughter was on a kid swim team and there was a trans female of her age that and the decision was made that that that child, that trans child would use her at the locker room with her. What would your what would your reaction be, do you think? I would pull my kid out. I would let my... You're talking about my daughter, right?

Yeah, okay. I would let my daughter decide. Look, obviously, I'm of a different mentality than Chaya is. It doesn't make me right. My mentality is very much that these things are much less harmful. Anything that meant not that things

are much less harmful to children than people fear. I let them I let my five year old play violent video games. Well, I pretty much let them watch whatever movies they want. I don't really monitor what my daughter reads. This is the way I was raised. I came out actually being pretty milquetoast and mild and, um, don't use a lot of bad language and I'm not violent and whatever. And then maybe that was just luck. But I think that dispositionally, that's who I was. And I think dispositionally,

my daughter will survive. She sees her brothers naked, whatever. So the question really isn't what I would do. daughter from swim class, I was the only dad picking up his daughter. She was like four. And all the moms would go in and change their daughters out of their bathing suits. And they didn't want me in in the room with the young girls change. They wanted me to take my daughter into a different room. On the other hand, when it's boys swimming, all the moms were in there with the boys. Right. And they didn't. So and Perry was like, yeah, I got to admit, I wouldn't want a dad in there either. So we all carry these kind of little things with us. You don't you don't want peril, doesn't want a dad in there with her daughter changing. Right. So he's gay. I don't mind if he's in.

All right. He's gay, but you're not going to you're not going to give him a questionnaire before he walks in. He's the dad. The point is this. There is something jarring about picturing your daughter. With a naked man's, you know, adult penis at a certain age. Right.

But that's different if it's just another kid who's trans. I mean, that's fine. No, it's not different. It is different. Why is it different? Because they're just kids. These are not just kids. These are adults. I mean, some are college. Well, in the scenario that I posed to you, it was high school.

No, he just said 10 years old. I said your daughter currently was on a swim team. With other 10-year-olds? Yeah. With other people her age. Pre-pubescent? Yes.

Well, pre-pubescent, I think we're all used to children seeing each other naked pre-pubescent. But Chaya would disagree. She would not want her child. Pre-pubescent, I don't know. Well, Chaya also said that children can't be transgender. No, no. Don't be mean. I'm not being mean at all.

One has nothing to do with the other. Yes, she said that, but that has nothing to do with this. Little boys and girls, little boys and girls in a lot of cultures run around naked together. No, Chaya? I don't know. I've never heard of that. Oh, you're not a parent.

I'm not a parent, and I grew up as a religious Jew. It gets more and more segregated as the children get older. For instance, babies, nobody cares, right? Actual babies, nobody cares. At three years old, parents will let their daughter and their son, four and three, take a bath together. As they get older, as they're more aware, whatever it is. Listen, you want to upend the entire, you know, thousands

of year history of some segregation between men and women. Maybe that's where we're going, but let's not call it crazy. I never called it crazy and I don't appreciate being called mean. I'm not trying to be mean at all. Sorry, take it back. Go ahead. So I'm allowed to have a different opinion, right? Like if nobody else's opinion is mean. Yes, I thought what you were bringing up was kind of a non sequitur, bringing up her previous opinion, disagreed with really had nothing to do with whatever she might say about this

thing. Take whatever she's going to say about this thing. Take it on its merits. I am taking it on its merit. But I do think that. All right. So you wouldn't care if your son changes in a locker room, if your daughter changes in a locker room with a transgender female, you wouldn't care. But are you ready to impose that on other parents? That's really the question. I think that if, for example, if Chaya is not comfortable with that, she has every right to pull her child out.

But I'm far less comfortable. Wait a second. Let me finish. I'm far less comfortable saying that a prepubescent trans child doesn't have the right to swim on the girls team. We weren't discussing that. Well, that's another issue. Sorry, I thought that's another. I thought that's exactly one.

No, one is one. One issue is whether she has the right to swim on the women's team. The other issue is whether she has the right to change in the same. I brought up the right to swim. OK, but let me ask you this. Do you do you think then, and by the way, sometimes there's communal showers. Should the trans swimmer be able to swim in the communal shower

with the girls, with the women? Yeah. He should. Now, then why not have unisex showers altogether? For kids? No, for- What are we talking about? Are we talking about children?

For either, No, for. What are we talking about? Are we talking about children? For either kids or adults. Like if you're saying like, obviously, if you have a shower, communal shower, the reason you wouldn't want the biological male in with the biological females is not for the sake of the biological male. It's for the female. Mm hmm. What if if the females have some legitimate right to not want to have that in their shower? What difference does it make to them what that person is thinking about their gender? Well, I think that that's the exact reason that there are non-gendered bathrooms now. Right. But no, people don't people. I got a different. Hi. what were you saying? You have to go? Yeah.

I mean, it's been about an hour already. I was told it's 45 minutes. I have a couple things I have to do. All right, Chaya. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I have to go. But anyway, people should read about this, the Twitter files. Read the Twitter files and read about the

way you were treated, persecuted, persecuted. And, um, and I hope they can distinguish between how they feel about your views and what kind of country they want to have in terms of people whose views that they disagree with. Do they want to agree with everyone, even people on your side. All right, Chaya, thank you so much.

All right. And perhaps we'll speak again. Bye bye. Yeah, thank you. Well, Noam, to answer your question, you know, I think the women, well, first of all, a woman might be uncomfortable

having other women in her shower with her and want her own shower. I suppose that could happen. Well, she'll have to take a shower. But if the woman knows that the male or the biological male has no sexual interest in them, I think that would go a long way toward calming their calming their fears. But they still might not like it. I agree with you. I know the transgender woman has no sexual interest. Well, how do they know? I like it. I agree with you. How do they know the transgender woman has no sexual interest? Well, how do they know there aren't lesbians in there?

That's true, too. Dan made this point. No, I know, but I'm saying if the point is. So the point, the women you're saying are uncomfortable having a biological male showering with them, which is perfectly fair. They're certainly welcome to have that. But we've never considered it bigotry before. And now I'm not saying it's bigotry.

I'm saying if these women realize that the person is trans, I'm wondering how many women would be upset. I'm saying that we're we're we're we're trying to we're trying to say now that this is bigotry. In other words, I don't a girl says I don't want that. Well, I don't really it's not. I don't I don't want that person and their penis in the shower with. No, I'm not saying it's bigotry. Right. But that's the argument. Perrielle was, and I don't know if Perrielle was saying it's bigotry. All right. And we're saying, well, what are you some kind of anti-trans person? Like, no, I'm not anti-trans. I don't care whether that person identifies as a male or female. I just don't want the opposite biological

sex in the shower with me. Call it instinct. Call it whatever it is. This is not new to the human race. I don't want that in the shower with me. But again, there might be a woman that doesn't want

other women in the shower with her, of course. No, but that's an outlier. They don't have to take a shower at all. But if the concern is sexual attraction. So when we're. Nobody said the concern was sexual attraction. When we're enunciating a policy, would I would I would I perhaps a good policy be everybody showers together and any woman that wants to opt out can do so? No, because at that point, why can't the men just shower with the women? Well, I think there's a big what's the difference? The difference is I'm not convinced that most

women would be uncomfortable with a trans woman in the shower with them. Of course, I could be wrong. Nicole, any thoughts? I'm cool with it. Nicole's cool with it. I think a lot of women would be sure. You know, it's cool that if you're, if you're a grown woman who's had sex, had relationships, we don't know that she's had, you may not be cool with it. If you're a 17 year old woman,

virgin who grew up in a sheltered background, that may be quite, you know, it's like, you know, and the parents may not be cool with it. And all I'm really saying is that it's what should the policy be? I don't know. It my my bigger issue is that. These discussions of what the policy should be are not helped by the quickness to label people bigots and hateful and transphobes

as a substitution for arguments. Because I don't believe, yes, bigots and transphobes do line up. That's what I was saying to Hayat. I don't want to, sometimes these positions do line up. That's what I was saying to Kyle. I don't want to, sometimes these positions do line up. You have bedfellows with people who are coming at it

from a different motivation. Nevertheless, you know, this is not new to the human race that men and women want some segregation. Well, I agree with that. I think that we're having the kind of discussion

that should be had. Because I think that as a matter of policy, I think a good case could be made that, again, okay, if you're trans, you can shower with the women, but if there's any women that are uncomfortable with it, we can accommodate them.

What do you think about Kaya? So she's obviously anyway, she's religious, as I suggest that she was. She's obviously Orthodox Jewish. And I'm sure that that likely informs her opinions on these matters. Do you do you cut her any more slack being Orthodox Jewish? Listen, you know, I've really been holding my tongue this entire show. So, you know, I I think, you know, I've really been holding my tongue this entire show. So, you know, I I think, you know what my position.

I'm asking you, do you cut her? No, I don't. And frankly, I think it's a really horrible and dangerous thing to say that children can't be transgender. You know, I think it's a point of view. I think it's wrong, but I think it's worth discussing. Yeah, I think it's fine to discuss it. But, you know, to not address what I started to say, which is that and there's also ample evidence for this, that it is incredibly dangerous not to address children who are prepubescent, who are saying that they identify as not the biological

gender that they were born. Wait a second. Wait a second. And in the 50 interviews that I did, almost without exception, every single one of those now trans adults has said that from the time they were old enough, in many cases, three years old, when they didn't even have the language, they knew that there was something about being in the wrong body. And I believe that's true. But those are the 50 trans people. OK, but there are. I've been doing what you didn't interview. And we know they exist.

Yeah, sure. I'm not disputing that either. Well, it's important to say that you didn't interview the people and I've seen them interviewed. I met one in the olive tree actually. Yes. Who have actually detransitioned. I'm not, that's, I'm not

taking anything away. You absolutely are. No, I'm not. You absolutely are because you never even mentioned it. Well, I'm. These people don't even exist. No, that's not true. In the universe that you just presented. No, I'm not. You absolutely are because you never even mentioned it. Well, I'm... These people don't even exist. No, that's not true. In the universe that you just presented. No, that's not true. I think she's just trying to counter... She's just trying to

argue against Chaya's position that a child can't be trans. Right, but Chaya would say... First of all, when you say there's ample evidence, I don't know if you know what the ample evidence is. But the... know what the ample evidence is, or what the evidence might be on the other side. I'd be curious to hear your presentation of the evidence.

But the fact is that we know from light reading that there are people who detransition. Yes, there are. We also know from light reading that there's an explosion of kids now claiming now who feel that they are trans and that serious people think that maybe there's some bandwagon effect. Can both of those things be true at once? Can it be possible that they're... What are the both things? Both of the things are that there are children who are trans

and then there are also children who are, who jumped, quote unquote, jumped on the bandwagon or are detransitioning. Or who would... I think that's what Chaya was saying. Okay, I did not get that impression. I think Chaya was saying is that no kid is truly trans, although she did.

She did admit that she believed that children have dysmorphic gender dysmorphia. So she said she said there are adults who are trans. But she didn't believe in it and we didn't. Well, I don't really know what the distinction is between gender dysmorphia and trans. Yeah, I think that what she's for. Listen, you heard her say that, right? Maybe you didn't hear her say that.

She said there. I heard her say that what I took it to mean, but I'm going to I'm going to have to sort of agree with you because she. I'm going to have to go back and listen to it, but I don't think she was crystal clear like she could have and should have been. But I think what she was saying that a 10-year-old doesn't know what they are. A 10-year-old may have feelings that may resolve themselves, may become stronger, may become bandwagon-ish. But if we just assume that all we need to know is what the 10-year-old is telling us, and from that make very consequential

decisions for this 10-year-old's life, like puberty blockers, like surgery, like whatever it is, that we have to weigh that. I guess I would say is, that we have to weigh that. I guess I would say to you, we have to weigh the times we might be wrong and cause adults who deeply regret it against the people who might actually be very much helped by this early intervention. And that is a trade-off question my guess kaya would say simply there's

no debate to be had right no child should ever receive any medical treatment and i and perry else has the same thing no no no don't do that that's not true no i'm not doing that i haven't heard all this is coming from me in your presentation of this issue. None. There was no you didn't unilaterally offer up once and have never once offered up. But I'm also concerned about the repercussions to the children who may end up later in life regretting this. You are no you are the mirror image of her, which is fine, but let's not pretend otherwise. She is, she is a hundred percent. This is wrong. No kids should ever be able to get any treatment. Even if the parents take them into the doctor and the doctor says, should the kids wear a dress? They

shouldn't be able to wear a dress. You know, I don't agree with that, but you are the 10 year old says they're trans, they're trans. I am of the position so that it's very clear that when a child tells you consistently what they are, that you listen to that child. That is not. But wait, wait. But the person that I met in the olive tree the other night, I can introduce you to him. He was him. I heard it back to him. And you listen to his story. I mean, you'll just you'll just start to sob. No was him. I heard it back to him. And you listen to his story.

I mean, you'll just start to sob. No, I've read. He was 10 years old at one time. Who looked out for him? Listen, I've read about this and I follow Buck Angel very closely, who is a trans man who

is also extremely controversial. You might like to have him on the show because he talks. Is he a porn star? He sounds like I think I don't I think, yes, he is. But he was born a biological woman and is a trans guy and has a very large social media following. So go ahead, get to it. And he talks a lot to people who are in exactly the boat that you're talking about. So they and what do you do to protect them? to surgery and other sorts of treatment or help that have irrevocable consequences. But OK, so here's the thing. But I really do.

I think it's really scary to say that no child can be trans. Like, I think that that's I'm not sure what exactly she meant by that, because she also said that they can have gender dysphoria. So I don't know what what exactly the difference in her mind is between those two concepts. I want to I want to add this and we should wrap up. So I'll wrap it soon. Wrap it up. You have to, that, um, you have a situation where religious people like Chaya, um, have an outsized voice here because, uh, because they feel so strongly about it and because they don't give a shit

when anybody thinks about them. And then you have a lot of people like me who, you know, want to get this right and want everybody to have their best shot at a fulfilling and gratifying life, whatever that means. And I feel we don't,

we don't know enough to make any of these decisions with a lot of confidence. We may have to make our best guess. And we may have to keep our, our intent up to revising these things. And many people like me, maybe even the majority of people like me who don't travel in religious circles, God forbid, who travel in elite liberal circles, as we know, they're afraid to talk about this stuff out loud. As we all know, the conversations that we will have about this stuff with liberal people privately in the olive tree are quite different than what they're ready to say on a podcast.

And that is why I believe it's so bad for people like Chaya, who I don't agree with. And who might even be coming from a place that disturbs me. They should be allowed to express themselves and and we should be able to handle it. Why does it disturb you? Because because it stigmatizes the entire concept of being able to discuss things, even with people who really disturb you. And this metastasizes all the way down to liberal people being able to afraid, being afraid to talk about their misgivings, even if only so somebody can disabuse them and explain to them, well, you don't understand. Actually, you shouldn't feel that way because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is the problem with free speech in the country today. And people should be like, like we survived

higher, right? We survived it. I'm very happy to have conversations with higher and anyone else. She shouldn't have been taken off of Twitter. But I, you know, I like what you said. And I think that that's a really important point, which is that you want people to have the best shot at, you know, having a happy life. Yeah. And my worry and my concern about and I certainly don't want to put words in her mouth or anybody else's is that that's not the sense that I get. And I've watched a lot of the videos that she put up. And, you know, I don't think or maybe I just don't agree that there's this, you know, scary liberal agenda to try and turn children trans. I mean, I don't agree with that either at all. We should we should have talked more about that. And I also I just want to say I think it's really unfair to, you know, when to dodge that question. Of course, nobody's obligated to answer anything. But when you said, you know, what's your position on LGBT, just to clarify where you're coming from and to say, oh, well, I don't want to say where I'm coming from because that's not relevant. I actually think it's extremely relevant because if you think being gay

is a sin. I mean, that kind of is a conversation ender right there, right? Maybe. Yeah, I thought it was relevant. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't think it was relevant. But it can also be prejudicial, as they say, in legal circles. And it can be difficult to. But it feels dishonest because it feels like you're not really having the conversation that you're really having, because it's a it's a. You can you can analyze all of her arguments on their merits without knowing. Her position. On on on homosexuality. I don't think so. I think it's like if you're talking to a Nazi and they have all of us, let's take it to extreme. Let's say she said, no, no, don't get me wrong. I'm married to a woman. All right. Well, that would be like, OK, so so at least that we've taken a certain a certain suspicion off the table that she's coming at this from where you're from a kind of a mystical thing and saying, oh, she's actually she's coming at this from a from a secular kind of reasoning that she that she says. where she is on the issues. But as Dan said, we should also be able to still analyze her

arguments based on her arguments. And knowing that she has a traditional Orthodox religious disapproval of homosexuality can make it quite easy to dismiss arguments that she might make that I could also restate in a way that that I did, which have nothing to do with sharing that belief system, you know. But it's like you can't really have a conversation, for example, about circumcision if the counter argument is the Torah says that this is the right thing to do and everything the Torah says is true. I mean, we learned that.

Well, yes, you can, because. The country. Has a First Amendment, which prioritizes people's right to their religious beliefs. For instance, for instance, if somebody says. I'm religious and I cannot fight in a war, even if our very existence is at stake, as we presume it's supposed to be when, or maybe not very,

but we're not supposed to go to war lightly. We will tell somebody, well, if you feel that way, you don't have to fight because that's your religious liberty. So she has a right to say, I think the Torah says I should circumcise. I think the Torah says I shouldn't kill somebody. And I expect my government to respect that. And these are not easy issues. These are not, this is the thing I keep trying to say, like, this is not just come down to like, if you're only, if only you're not transphobic and if only you're not anti-gay, it all so easily falls into line about what everything should be here.

No, but it's not. I haven't seen a more complicated issue come across our plate in a long time. One with less actual data, less reliable science, less thinking through. But the difference is, is you're trying to weigh both sides. You're trying to take information from both sides. Yeah, but to weigh both sides, you have to allow both sides to speak. Nobody is saying. Yes, they are.

Well, OK, because she got taken down. But that's not what we're talking about. And I can have a whole lot more confidence in somebody's position on the other side of the issue if I can hear them debate with somebody who disagrees with them and handle the arguments. I agree with you. It's very easy to make these arguments on Twitter if anybody who disagrees with you is silenced. Sure. Oh, you sound so smart. But, you know, it becomes much more complicated, for example, when you have a preschooler who has a teacher who's trans. Right. Yes,

it does become more complicated, I think. Yeah, go ahead. And then, you know, just by virtue of being trans, you're then accused of, quote unquote, pushing a certain agenda, which, in fact, you perhaps are or perhaps are not doing at all by the sheer fact of being trans. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, then you have an additional problem there because the trans teacher has rights, too. That's what I'm trying to say, though. And, you know, it's OK. We have to cut some stuff. I think I think that the trans teacher's rights have to be the number one priority there. And I what I'm saying is, yes, I am recognizing what you're saying. I'm not just coming at it at one side, but I'm, you know, sort of, you know. But on the issue that we handled on the curriculum and all this stuff, I'm closer to her.

I don't really want that, all that stuff half, but I can use the word half-baked, not because that's a connotation of being, you know, dumb, but half-baked in the sense that we are early in our understanding. Fine. So what happens in a very real situation where you do have a teacher of a preschool who is trans and they're not pushing any trans agenda, but they're trans and it comes out that they're trans just by being a person. I think that in that case, certainly in a public school, the teacher has every right to be trans. Nothing they can do about that. And also, you have a young kid who goes to the guidance counselor and says, my parents don't understand. My parents are religious.

I'm trans. I'm 12 years old, and I felt this way my whole life, and you're the only person I can talk to. And the guidance counselor helps that child. Helps them how? Helps them by affirming their identity. But what if what is the I mean. Is that pushing an agenda?

I'm not saying it's pushing an agenda. I'm saying that. You would not take your kid who had a serious mental stress issue, whatever it is. To just anybody who has a plaque on their door that says guidance counselor, right? OK. This is a very consequential thing. I agree with you. So what you're also asking me is, are you ready to say that if your, if your child is very mentally anguished over some issue with his, with you, your dad, that you think it's okay to assume that whoever it is who happens to be inhabiting that office of guidance counselor, whatever public school it may go to is qualified and should get the protection of the state to allow it to come between you and your child.

That's a fucking hard issue. That's a hard issue. I know guidance counselors. My, my stepmother was a guidance counselor. She had no particular expertise. Which stepmother is that? Carol,

my mother, the woman who raised me. She was very, very. Never heard of her. She would have been. How have I never heard of her? She would have been a very good person to have come to in that situation. However.

You're saying it's possible that somebody wouldn't be. She didn't. What does she know? I know exactly what she would have said. She would have parroted whatever the current, you know, in thing was in that circle and among educators who tend to be quite liberal. But the current thing I think is, is better than outright ignorance.

I mean, I think sometimes often it's not quite often. It's not look. Sometimes it is. Sometimes the conventional wisdom is correct to not be racist. Is the conventional wisdom. It's also correct. Yeah. But the conventional wisdom in the South wouldn't have been to not be racist. The guidance counselor in Mississippi wouldn't have had the same. Like you want. You're saying you're your guidance counselor. Well, the guidance counselor in Mississippi.

Well, I'm the guidance counselor in Mississippi is, you know, very possibly still not. What if there's a parents who are like all pro trans and the guidance council in Mississippi wants to intervene? That's a problem. As a society, big problem. As a society, we're hopefully getting closer and closer to the truth, whatever that is. Only through rigorous and open debate.

Can we get to the truth? Period. That's it. That's that's that's the whole point of this conversation as a whole point of this podcast. And, you know, why don't we put a bow on it? You're always such a strong advocate for tight. And yet you you you. Well, I you know, I admittedly had, you know, a difficult time, you know, sitting through some of that rhetoric. But I do agree with Noam that it's important to have those conversations. And perhaps you're a better man than I am.

Listen, I make an allowance for religious people because I know that this is what religious people believe. Do you also know that in religious circles, okay, you want to wrap it up. He wants to wrap it up. He was already reading his cell phone. I know he wants to wrap it up. Well, because Perry Allen's always

after every show, she's like, we got to keep that tight. We can't go on and on. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. And you tell me after every show, right? Yeah. Go ahead, Ariel. It's good to keep it tight.

They have the highest suicide rates, the gay and trans communities of ultra-Orthodox communities. And that's a very scary thing, too. Yeah. If that's true. It's not a parallel fact. What kind of evidence can I present you that you'll accept? I know exactly the answer to that.

Precisely wherever you read it. And if that's not enough to stump you, I mean, it seems plausible. It's plausible that gay people of unorthodox families would. So I don't make those allowances. Well, there's a lot of things religious people believe perry and um i maybe you're right i mean you know when it extends to like uh murder of uh homosexuals in in um you know islamic fundamentalist countries i don't make those allowances either but in some way knowing that somebody was raised in in a particular environment i do put that in the context so for instance and then we'll go when i hear some very outrageous anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli stuff from a recent Egyptian immigrant who might

work for me it does I do find it easier to handle than from some white kid you know some white irish kid or something like like i know that's where they're i know that's how they're raised and maybe i'm wrong for for putting that putting it in that context but for some reason it just bothers me less so i don't i take it more as an expression of something that they've been inculcated with than a position that they've embraced in a more free, with more free opportunities to think about things and decide on what they believe.

Maybe it's a distinction without a difference in terms of the harm they can do but i don't think it's it's irrelevant anyway that's it okay okay so podcast of comedy how did you dot com comment suggestions kaya right chick she's a chick on the right she's right chick what did you think uh we'll see you next time bye