The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - That's Not Funny

Episode Date: April 30, 2022

Authors Matt Sienkiewicz and Nick Marx of That's Not Funny--which shows how much political and cultural power the right-wing comedy world has gained. Sienkiewicz is Associate Professor and Chair of the Boston College Communication Department and Marx is Associate Professor of Film and Media Studies in the Department of Communication Studies at Colorado State University.  Dan discusses being rejected from The Tonight Show. 

🎵 This is Live from the Table, recorded at the world-famous Comedy Cellar in New York's Greenwich Village. Coming at you on Sirius XM 99 Raw Dog. And on the Laugh Button Podcast Network, Dan Natterman here. Noam is with us via Zoom once again. COVID has struck the Dwarven household. Now it's his son that has it. So Noam is once again in quarantine.

Somehow Gnome has managed to dodge the raindrops, if you will, and has yet to get COVID. Well, knock on wood. Hopefully he will continue to avoid it. I don't know how he's done it, but he has done it. He has successfully avoided COVID. Excuse me. Witch. Bless you. Hopefully that's just an allergy.

Perrielle is with us. Perrielle, of course, you know who Perrielle is. She is Perrielle Ashenbrand. She is our producer and over the course of time has become an on-air personality. It happens so gradually. Nobody noticed or could really prevent it. And here we are. And behind the scenes, Nicole Lyons is with us, a talented wizard of sound.

Nicole Lyons. Ironically, she is a sound person who does not like to be heard. Noam, how are you? I'm fine. I feel fine. You know, I hope my son's all right. Everything is everything is good. You know, I'm going to be 60 this summer. So I feel like my best days are behind me.

Oh, my God. I really have to have to figure out something to do with the next. Hopefully 30 years. No, hopefully 30 years. Your mother's still in great shape. Yeah, my mother, my mother's doing good. She's a, she's 79. I, I, I have, I have a little news. Like I, I, I saw on the internet that I know you have something to talk about, but I saw on the internet that they, the Guinness book just certified the oldest dog on the planet as being 21

years and 63 days or something like that. And it just so happens that I had a dog that was 22 years old. Really? I had a dog that was 22 years old. It was undisputably 22 years old. We knew it was 22. The vet knew it was 22. Nobody ever told me I might've had the oldest dog on the planet at that time. I just, I just can't believe I had a 22 year old dog. And is there anybody can verify this information that I had a 22 year old dog? Or is this like those, those guys, like, you know, in Peru that swear that they're 160, but they don't have a birth certificate. Like the Georgians eating yogurt? No. Yeah, we can verify it. I mean, I'm not going to go

to the New York animal hospital, I think, but I just remember, we all remember Juanita and I compared memories at the time we knew the dog, not only was the dog 22, but the mother, we had the, I'm sorry, she was the mother. We also had the daughter who lived to be almost 21, if not 21, they were together. What kind of dog was this? Yorkshire Terrier.

Well, I'll have to take your word for it. I really would need verification on that. That sounds pretty incredible to me. But it's absolutely true it's absolutely true the dog was 22 years old for sure what was the dog's name uh uh uh gg gg gg yeah like the french name gg yeah well what's interesting is that the oldest woman of all time was french uh jean comment who lived till 122 and died in 1997. Yeah, but you know, Dan, that the oldest person in the world died today. Yeah, 119.

Connie Tanaka or something like that. Yeah, yeah. She was Japanese. Yeah. There are people that don't think that the 122-year-old French woman is legitimate. They think she might've been a fraud. Most people think she was legitimate,

but because one of the reasons is, is no one's even made it to 120, let alone 122. So just the fact that she's not only broken the record, but smashed the record. So, so by so many, so much time,

people think she's like that transgender swimmer. I guess everything has to come back to transgenders with Noam. Noam, can we get, because we do have some other guests coming. I do want to get to this very, what I think is an interesting talking point. Is that. Imperial shakes her head like I said something bad. I'm just thinking some records can be blown wide open. Go ahead, Dan.

Go ahead. I was rejected from the Tonight Show. I haven't done a talk show in a long time. I used to get them fairly regularly back in the day. And I haven't done one in a while, but I wanted to do one just to promote my book. So I figured I'd try to get The Tonight Show starring Jimmy Fallon.

So I put together a set and I checked it with Pete Lee, who's done the show. And he didn't like the set. He said, well, this isn't right for Fallon. It's a good set, but it's not right for Fallon. So I did another one. And then he said, oh, no, this is great. I'll send it along to Michael Cox, who's the booker at Jimmy Fallon.

And I was optimistic. I was optimistic because although I haven't done one in a while and although Michael Cox has not been receptive to me in the past, I figured with Pete Lee vouching for me and it was, I thought, a pretty good set, I would have luck. So I was optimistic, perhaps foolishly so, I don't know. But then I didn't hear back from him for a period of time. And so I said to Pete Lee,

Pete Lee, did Michael Cox say anything to you? Pete Lee said, no, but you can check with him yourself. So I figured, well, I don't know if this is good. But anyway, I sent Michael Cox an email myself. And I figured, well, I don't know if this is good, but anyway, I sent Michael Cox an email myself and I'll just read you the email chain. And you can tell me that, uh, whether I did anything wrong or whether I, you know, how I responded was appropriate, but I just wrote Michael. I believe Pete, Pete Lee had Pete Lee had sent you a five minute set.

I recorded at the comedy cellar several weeks back. Pete thought the set would be great for the tonight show and was hoping you would agree i was wondering if you looked at it yet if you haven't enjoyed it let's discuss a possible date of course i can send you another set if there are any jokes you don't like but pete thought it was really good as is best dad to which he responded fairly quickly um the same day hi dan i Dan. I knew, by the way, as soon as I read, hi, Dan, it was over. You get very good as you advance in this business at knowing immediately

when bad news is about to be dropped on you by the, you know, if it was Dan! Exclamation point, exclamation point. Then I'd know, oh, I got the show. Hi, Dan, period. I know immediately I didn't get the show at that point. Thank you for following up. I really knew.

I mean, if I didn't know with the hi, Dan, period, I knew with certitude after thank you for following up. Nobody would say thank you for following up if it was good news. Pete did send the set and I watched it. Well, if there was ever any doubt, all doubt is now. I mean, even if there was even a smidge of a doubt, that doubt is now evaporated. Unfortunately, and of course, that's that's, you know, confirmation. It's a pass at this time.

I have a handful of comics with approved sets waiting for dates that I currently do not have. Feel free to check back later in the year. Now, perhaps the uneducated might say, well, oh, he said check back later in the year. I know better. And I know that anybody that really had any interest in having me on the show would have said, great set, really like it. We're a bit tied up right now. Check back later.

Let's get you on. Or something of that nature. This, to me, I mean, seemed to be a complete no without really wanting to say no, because nobody likes to say no. I mean, would you agree with that, Perio? No, you wouldn't. OK, no, I don't. Well, you're wrong. OK, I believe you're wrong. No. And what do you think about that? No, I think you're right, Dan. Yeah, I think that if there was ever any doubt having this conversation on air is the thing that's uh putting the nail in the coffin well well perhaps but um i

think it's interesting read what he said again he said hi dan thank you for following up pete did send the set and i watched it unfortunately it's a pass at this time i have a handful of comics with approved dates waiting for dates that I do not currently have. Feel free to check back later in the year. Thanks, Michael Cox, stand-up booker, The Tonight Show, Jimmy Fallon. Is that a no, like he wouldn't look at another set

or anything like that? For whatever reason, that particular set was not... Well, yes, but he didn't say that either. But he doesn't have to. But, no, he doesn't. say that either. But he doesn't have to be subtle. But but no, he doesn't. But I have to interpret what he's saying, because I need to know whether to check back later or try to get another show. I'd like to do the Fallon show if I have to choose.

Well, but but there's other shows I could try to get. Yeah, you should try to get. Now, I wrote back. Maybe maybe you would. Perry, you're going to object to this. You probably think I screwed things up. I don't believe so, but you might think so, given what you've said. I wrote back, happy to check back if you like the set and want to use me. If you don't anticipate using me,

I'd rather focus elsewhere. Please advise. Now, you might find that a bit harsh. Perhaps it was you wrote back. Hi, Dan. You are welcome to focus elsewhere. I mean, of course, when you put it that way, he's going to say that. You didn't really give him. I mean, it's not his job to encourage you to, you know, sit around and wait. But I think. No, but if he wants me on the show, if he thinks I'd be an asset for the show, it's his job to pick comics that he thinks would be good.

So it's his job to tell comics that he thinks would be good. So it's his job to tell me, hey, Dan, you know, I really like the opening joke, but the closing joke wasn't strong. If you could send me another set with a great closing joke, I think we could maybe, you know, do something here. That's the kind of thing you would say if you had any intention of using somebody, you know? But you gave him no choice because if he says to you, no, don't check back elsewhere,

don't check elsewhere, then he's really obligated to use you because you've relied on him and passed up other opportunities. So he has no choice but to say, well, he could have said, you know, we would, I do like the set,

but I don't want to, I don't want to stop you from looking elsewhere. You well, he could have said, you know, we would. I do like to set, but I don't want to I don't want to stop you from looking elsewhere. You know, he could have said something like, well, if you hadn't said that to him, then I mean, I think that you could have interpreted it like that. He didn't have to say you're welcome to check back. Like he could have just said it's a pass at this time. Best take care. But not but there was nothing about, you know, I really there were the you, you know, the, it, it, it was, it started off great. It got a little weak toward the end. If you can maybe beef up the last joke or maybe he said,

I liked the last joke, but you didn't start off strong enough. You've got the first joke. It was just, you're making these things, but I'm making these things based on 20 years plus of experience with dealing with these people, not to mention common sense, common sense. If you want to use somebody, you think to be an asset to the show. You say, here's what it is. I saw the set, you know, you didn't start off strong. You ended strong.

We didn't start off strong or maybe the middle was soft or I didn't like this joke. It was, we, on the, on the, on the tonight show, we don't like jokes about blah, blah, blah, blah. Or there was a joke about COVID and COVID might be stale by the time the joke gets on the air. Well, how about, but okay. So, but if you cut that joke out and put in this joke, maybe we'll do it. Stop, stop. Yeah, go ahead.

How about just taking what he said at face value instead? You can't take anything in this business at face value. People don't talk straight in this business. It says everybody's full of shit. So you got to figure out what are they trying to say? Well, I think that he was, I don't know. I mean, I think. No. And what is your best interpretation of the original email and what his intentions were? I mean, and also it's like I've been around a while. I've been on a lot of shows.

I mean, you're just going to tell me it's a pass at this time without anything. It's you know, I mean, like without any, like, oh, I really love the joke about this. Or I really love the joke, especially given the people that he's used. I don't want to mention names. There've been some good ones, obviously, but there've been ones, I mean, come on. Noam, your thoughts.

Well, I mean, I know him, the littlest bit. He's always seemed to be a very nice, straightforward guy. And I think that he gets many, many of these tapes all the time. And for whatever reason, you know, I don't, I have no idea how they perceive you, but he passed. And. But do you agree with me that it was a pretty, I mean, there's always a possibility he, he meant what he said, but it's, it's pretty, it was pretty cut and dry.

Yeah. Maybe you want to, I mean, I get what you're saying. I'm not going to, you know, just lie to you. Like if he, if he thought you were like young and up and coming and, and a hot prospect that he didn't want and he wanted, you know, he saw that, you know, this is a guy i'd like to have um tied to the tonight show in the future rather than uh kimmel or whoever it is that let me let me work with him he might have done that instead he your known commodity and you know i don't even know how many comedians they use now and for whatever reason quite a bit they use quite

a few i also didn't see your set, but for whatever reason, it wasn't his thing, you know? And well, I think I, you know, he didn't have to write back that quickly. He seemed like very friendly. Stop trying to sugarcoat. I'm sure he's friendly. I'm not saying he's not friendly. I'm not saying it's not friendly. I'm saying it was a no. And I'm saying it's scandalous as far as I'm concerned to say no, that abruptly considering the people he's had on. I mean, OK, if you want to use young, hot, young people that are good looking or maybe he's got a few favorites that are older or they would really I think they were because Jimmy liked them, to be honest. then say then okay fine but i think it's scandalous to just toss somebody out abruptly dismiss somebody that's that's that's a long time veteran that had that has superior jokes that are perfect for if nothing else talk shows if nothing if i'm good for nothing else i'm good

for those shows well and they just say no okay fine all right fine. All right. I'm too old or I'm too. I don't have enough Twitter followers. OK, fine. Terrific. If that's what you're basing it on. Great. But permit me to be upset and permit me to be scandalized and permit me to feel. Anger. Well, I'd like to thank you personally for declaring war on The Tonight Show on my show. I'm not declaring war on The Tonight Show. my show. I'm not declaring war on The Tonight Show. That would be quite scandalous without giving me a heads up, you know, because obviously- Well, I told you- We don't need to have any good relationship

with The Tonight Show. Well, you really don't, by the way. But I don't see how it helps you in any way, shape, or form. But I don't also see how I've declared war on The Tonight Show. Listen- Most people don't take kindly to being called scandalous and, you know- I didn't say- It is scandalous. It's scandalous. Listen, I. Most of them don't take kindly to being called scandalous. And, you know, I didn't say I say it is scandalous.

It's scandalous. Listen, it is scandalous. Can you listen for a second? Your ego is ego ego. It's just I mean, I'm not like I'm asking for a three picture deal. I'm asking for the smallest of things. And and I was dismissed completely out of hand and i'm telling you i now i didn't read it like that i don't well you're wrong okay you're simply wrong on this on this count i i you know i i my interpretation of it is how it is

okay um anyhow nicole you have any thoughts about this yeah it's definitely frustrating not having any answers but i feel like that's just how it is right like no no i have an answer well yeah the answer is go fuck yourself that answer but i mean like you're saying i wish i knew what i could change no no no but but no i'm not saying i'm saying i know that there's nothing i could change he gave me the answer he gave me all the information and I'm just not happy with the information. The information is as follows. I don't care what you send me. You're not getting on this show because you're perfect for it.

Godfather reference. I thought Noam would more appreciate it. No, I mean, your reaction is one way to go about it. The other way to go about it would be to have, you know, just send him another set entirely different. Yeah.

But no, there's no, there's no set. I could send him that would convince him. It's clear. First of all, the set was very good. I mean,

I watched tonight. Should the people that do the tonight show, I mean, the set was more than good enough. It was probably at least twice the level it had to be to be on the tonight show. Okay. Let me ask you this question.

What is the demographic of people who watch this tonight show? Do you know that? Probably. Oh, I don't know. To be honest with you, that I don't know. I don't, I don't know. It's probably something you should know before you to, to understand where he might. I do well on these shows. Did BET turn you down also? I do well on these shows. Historically, I've done well these shows historically. I've done well on Letterman.

I've done well on all these shows. Right. I mean, you're telling me that everybody that watches this show is, I'm not, they're not going to laugh. No, I'm saying. I really don't know. But if, if the Tonight Show skews young now, I don't even know. I don't know.

You know, but I would, but your, your club skews young. No, I'm watching this not book me here, because have you seen the people that come to your club? They're all young people mostly. And they like Colin Quinn and they like Jim Norton, who is older than I am, and they like any number of people that are older or as old as I am. So I just don't see the maybe you're right. You know, I hadn't thought of that, Dan.

Maybe you should stop booking all of us. I think that tonight show skews trans. Well, that's the case. Then maybe then maybe then maybe I don't belong on the show, although I have my materials all trans friendly. I'm sorry, Dan. I mean, I. Well, you know, look, the fact of the matter is, is nobody's getting famous from these shows anyway. It's all about podcasts and it's all about this other stuff. So, I mean, really, as a practical matter, it doesn't make that huge a difference, but it just is insulting. And I was hoping to promote my book. And of course, you never know when you do a talk show who might be watching. And it is always the possibility that, you know, that something could

happen. That's good. Speaking of my book, Periel has read it. We have a couple more minutes before our main guests arrive. Periel has read it. She told me she loved it. I take her at her word, although I'm always like because somebody's a friend of mine, I like to discount it. But she said she loved, loved that she said love twice. So I figured she probably at least loved it i take her at her word although i'm always like because somebody's a friend of mine i like to discount it but she said she loved loved that she said love twice so i figured she probably at least loved it once discounting uh discounting a little bit because she's my friend but anyway uh peril if you have anything to add i did love love it twice, not once. If I only loved it once, I would have said I only loved it once. OK, so did she read the corrected version where the where the few mistakes that I don't know she did or not? I forgot that I give it to you or did you buy it? You gave it to me. There were a couple of type.

OK, so those have likely been corrected. I just thought that it was so wonderful. It was really one of my favorite books that I've read in the past 10 years. And granted, I used to read a lot more before I had a child. But I it was really up there with like my favorite like Jonathan Ames books. And very high praise. And I thank you for that. And and it's because of that compliment that I didn't go completely crazy after my Tonight Show rejection because I had I was fortified by Perry.

I was really because I really am hanging by a thread to that extent that any gentle. Watch your son in tonight's show. Michael, that your book to read. Well, I don't imagine he's going to read. Well, why don't we not air this part of the episode and send Michael your book to read? I think that, so wait, so let me just finish.

I cried at one part of the book. I'm not going to say what it was because I don't want to ruin it for potential readers. I was that involved in the characters. And I really have read a lot, despite what Noam, the impression that Noam likes to give about me. And it really was just so beautifully written and funny and heartfelt. And it was just brilliant.

I really love it. Iris Spiro before COVID available on Amazon. You can get free three, four free chapters on Kindle. And Perrielle, I know you want me to read your book. No, but wait, let me say this, though. The other thing that I said to Dan was this book really is begging to be turned into a television series or a film. And that's where I really think that you should focus your attention and try to do that. And of course, also hire me to write on it. But I really think it would be just the most incredible TV show. Don't you agree, Noam?

Well, I feel like michael cox uh i i don't i don't know i i think that um the problem i saw i think i mentioned this the problem i saw with turning it into a movie the challenge not a problem the challenge is that so much of the most interesting parts of the book are internal dialogue. As I recall, it's fading. And situation comedies depend largely on like things that happen, narrative events, which there are fewer of. So it would it would have it would take some ingenuity, but, but if you could capture the spirit of the book on film, absolutely. I think it would be great because as Dan knows, and he knows I wasn't telling him that book is one of the only books I've read in years that I did not put down. I don't, I wasn't able to put that book down.

I don't think I've been like that since I read The World According to Garp back in freshman college or sophomore college. Once again, Amazon.com. Ira Spiro before COVID. I couldn't put it down either. I took it to Jamaica with me.

I was actually devastated when I finished it because I finished it in the first two and I just, it was, I was actually devastated when I finished it. Cause I finished it in like the first two and a half days I was there. And I was taking it everywhere with me. Is that why your husband said, don't you have something else to read? Sorry. And Perry, I'll lay down the law and said, we have to read her book um or one of her books i told you to bring it in for me i didn't but i will okay i told you i don't want to read her book i don't want to read about perry all giving blow jobs and having

sex and how i just don't want i don't want to read that i don't know what first of all don't read it okay like you're not doing me any favors number one don't read it and i don't know why. First of all, don't read it. OK, like you're not doing me any favors. Number one, don't read it. And I don't know why you're just like assuming that that's what the book is about. Like, don't dismiss my work as like this, like just like I judge a book by its cover. OK, and the name of the book is On My Knees and You're Naked on the Cover. First of all, I am categorically not naked. Number one. Well, you're scant. Very, very, very scantily.

Don't you have just like a book in front of your snatch or something like what are you wearing? I snatch. Amazing. That's my first book. That's the only bush I trust is my own. In that I am naked. What do you like the moral police now?

I'm just saying like, why would I think this, this is a district disquisition on something interesting? Like it sounds like it's going to be like a sex memoir. Anyway, as I was saying, I really think that you should turn this into a, well, we'll discuss that. I don't know. I mean, Judd Abaddon has a copy of it. I don't, I don't think he's, he's gotten to it. He he says that he he has it on his shelf so but you know obvious he's only one guy uh god read the book judd if you know anybody else that that that that would take a look at it

that's you know please don't uh hesitate to uh forward it or let me know and i'll reach out um you know and then you'll skewer them on the show if they don't like it. No, no, I won't skewer them on the show if they don't like it, because I just thought the Tonight Show thing was it. First of all, it it you know, it. Dan, I might skew it. I think I don't think you're being fair to the Tonight Show. It is very it's.

Uneasy is the head that wears the crown dan or whatever it is it's it's very very difficult to be in charge and have to make decisions on a finite resource like minutes on a tonight show with a sure i mean how many comics you think are trying to get that tonight show hundreds at least good ones and um he's got, you know, he's not the boss. He has other people on top of who are pressing in this direction, that direction. And, you know, it's, it's, it is absolutely a thankless task that he's got. It's like Esty's job booking the, the seller.

I think you have to just take this in stride. That's all the best, the best, the best revenge you can get is getting a spot on one of the other competitive shows and killing. Well, I hear what you're saying, and I thought about it. You should do that without alienating them anyway. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I just...

You're allowed to be upset. We also... Look, I don't know if they're here. I guess they're here. You're allowed to be upset um we also i don't know if they're here i guess they're here you're allowed to be upset but i i agree with no well well send in your comments as to whether i am justifiably my anger is righteous or misplaced um i'm just happy you didn't tell everybody to write michael cox it's a nice show i'm happy not do that that would have been really no i'm not gonna dox anybody um but um yeah i mean you're right he you know it's it's a thankless job because he's gonna have to reject people i i just feel that this this was a bit much now and maybe he took he's

taking orders from from from jimmy that says we want young people we want never never gets that spot and i'll tell you what fresh voices you know maybe he could have said that in his email look this is great stuff but we're trying to break new people and i don't know he doesn't need to tell you he doesn't need to and i'm not being an asshole because i didn't say i never said he was being an asshole i said said, you know, I never the word asshole never crossed my lips. But at some point, I think that a decision is is it very at the very least. Is that in some way you're taking this personally? The point is that whatever you think about his judgment of this. All you're entitled to is his good faith judgment. And if you and i'm getting my good faith judgment on his good

faith judgment right but i'm saying like you're not entitled for him to see this tonight's show in your way or that it should you haven't taught what you are entitled to is something like that he'd not be doing it because he's playing favorites or or you know what i'm not even i don't know but like you're entitled to his good faith judgment and And if you got his good faith judgment, then that's it. That's it. You got his good faith judgment. I'm at the age right now where my high school teachers are starting to die on a regular basis. So that's very sad, but that's, well, you know, what can I tell you? It happens. It's a cycle of life, right? So, well,

it is. And Mr. Morales just died. Mr. Morales just died. He was our ninth grade health and sex education teacher. Ninth grade health and sex education. Actually, he was one of two health and sex education teachers we had that year because he got fired. He was inappropriate. I'll tell you what happened. He came to class one day. He said, class, today I'm going to demonstrate how to put a condom on.

That's why I have this banana with me because I can't get hard on an empty stomach. And say what you will about Mr. Morales' teaching techniques, I remembered how to put a condom on. You know, I mean, some guy puts a condom on a banana, you might forget that, but you know, you don't forget a guy putting a condom on his rock-hard cock is what I'm getting at, you know. Especially when you're the one that got him hard, you don't forget a guy putting a condom on his rock-hard cock is what I'm getting at, you know. Especially when you're the one that got him hard, you know. Well, I was hoping for class participation credit, you know, is the thing.

And then he gets fired. I didn't get the credit, you know. So the new teacher comes along. I'm like, you know, I jerked the last guy off. I don't know if that transfers or not, you know. Maybe you could write that down in the book. I don't know. Bring our or not. You know, maybe you could write that down in the book. I don't know. But bring our guests. OK, our guests. Hello. We have with us. Yes. How do you do? This is Nick Marks, associate professor of film and media studies in the

Department of Communication Studies at Colorado State. And we have Matt Sinkowitz. I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly. Associate Professor and Chair of the Boston College Communications Department in their well-timed book, That's Not Funny, How the Right Makes Comedy Work for Them. Professors Sinkowitz and Marks convincingly show how much political and cultural power the right-wing comedy world has gained. We typically see comedy as a left-wing phenomenon,

but not so fast. Say Sinkowitz and Marx in their new book, the left wing has their. Their their comedic. I started off such a good introduction. But anyway, the committee, the conservatives know how to do comedy, too. So welcome, Marx and Sinkowitz, Nick Marks and Matt Sinkowitz. I know Noam really wanted to have you on the show. Don't read into that that Dan didn't. It's just that I was the one who heard about you guys first.

So what is it? Oh, I see. I see a yarmulke under there. Now, I like even more. Isn't Boston College a Catholic university? Very much so. Yeah. No, there's a few of us running around.

As long as we don't get too numerous, they let us stick around. Dan, you like him better now? No. Well, first of all, no. I mean, generally speaking, most of my Jewish friends are of the reform variety. Really? My father thought reform was worse than Christian. Your father never met a shrimp he didn't like or a cheeseburger he didn't like. Let's get to the book. But just to say, that was his point. My

father's point was, if you believe, then frigging believe. And if you don't believe, then don't believe. But don't massage the religions into some it's just some sort of, you know, unrecognizable Christianized form of it. So you can have your cake and eat it too. That's the way he felt. So he didn't believe, so he didn't, he didn't practice, but, and he was fiercely, you know, fiercely. Okay. I hear what you're saying. And I'm using the word reform just to mean Jews like us. Yeah.

But you're meaning it. You're, you're using it to mean Jews that go to a reformed temple. Yes, yes. I'm using it to mean Jews that don't do anything. Oh, that's not the right terminology. Anyway. So so the book so so not that long ago, the rap on right wing humor is that right wing wasn't funny. And Jon Stewart was funny. And I remember Dennis Miller, who I thought was always very funny. But then he did a like a starkly political hour one time and it fell very, very flat. And the take on the right was that, you know, the right's just not funny. And it was basically true. And now it's totally flipped. The Babylon Bee is funny. Also, all these kind of iconoclastic Andrew Schultz and these people seem to be kind of right wing are funny. And the left doesn't even appreciate any humor anymore. So tell us about it. How did it change? Am I correct? Go on. You guys go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we're we're making an observation here,

which seems pretty obvious that people across the political spectrum can be funny. And that particularly given the way that media works, right, that there's not just a couple of gatekeepers, right, to get to decide what goes on SNL and, you know, whatever few shows get on Comedy Central. But, you know, there's a whole world of podcasts, you know, websites, TV channels, more than you can count streaming, all that in that space, comedy from across the political spectrum can exist and can, can thrive. And, you know, we were, to be honest, I mean, we're professors and most people are going to read our books are going to be on the left. And what, you know, our, our number one thing we want to alert and say, and just, you know, sort of put out there is that sort of chauvinism that that, you know, that a certain kind of politics can be funny and another kind can't be successful with comedy just just isn't the case. So, you know, we lay out

people, you know, some of them, you name we talk about the Babylon Bee. We talk about Greg Gutfeld. We talk about curious cases like a Joe Rogan, right, who's got a really complicated politics, but certainly brings on right wing voices. So the biggest thing we're trying to do is sort of dispel that notion that comedy has a political alliance or allegiance. And then, you know, sort of the people on the left who were funny and uh came from a progressive point of view like george colin or whatever and now the people on the right who are funny what is the common denominator that makes people funny that now that the right used to not be able to manage and now the left is not being able to manage there's got to be something in common between them, right? It's a great question. I think one of the common denominators is that they

are workaholic comics who know the craft of writing a joke, performing it in front of a live audience, trying new material on air. They're not people who just hop on Twitter all day and sort of, you know, seek to rile people up, although there is a pretty heavy element among some of the folks that we talk about. In large part, if you take a figure like George Carlin compared to someone like George Rogan, sorry, Joe Rogan, and even contemporary liberal counterparts, they're working comedians, right? They have an audience that they continually serve by touring, by going on podcasts, by crafting jokes, and not just by sort of doing the claptor thing, right? Ha ha, Mitch McConnell, you look weird. They know how to actually write a punchline.

Dan, what do you think about this subject? Well, I think that conservatives have a bit of an obstacle to overcome. First of all, I think a lot of comics are conservative and they don't discuss it on stage. I mean, when I talk to them offstage, we have our very, very liberal comics and we have our kind of politically centrist comics. We have a lot that are a little bit to the right.

But I think conservatism has a bit of an obstacle because some some aspects of conservative conservatism conservatism are inherently not funny inherently hard and painful truths if indeed immigration has to be limited because we have limited resources or because society that, you know, there have been studies to suggest that too much diversity erodes trust. That may be true. It's also sad and upsetting. And so, you know, it becomes difficult to make jokes about these kinds of points of view that are conservative. If people that, you know,

I mean, yeah, if we have to, you know, what else? Yeah, I mean, immigration in particular is, is, is, is if we can't let everybody in that wants to come here because it's just not practical. It, that's not funny. That's a sad truth perhaps, but it's not funny. Well, I had an, I had had an observation. Maybe,

maybe this is some thing to worth thinking about. We're thinking about, I didn't have about. I had an observation a while ago that back in the 90s, the phrase politically incorrect was an extremely powerful marketing tool if you wanted to hook in a left-wing audience. They were hungry for something called politically incorrect.

Now, the right wing would be enticed by that slogan, I believe. I don't have any empirical data, but I believe that's true. The left is turned off at this point by the idea of something being politically incorrect, puncturing norms, things like that, things you're not supposed to say. The left has never been more concerned in anybody's lifetime about people not saying the things they're not supposed to say. Isn't that part of the reason that the funny has kind of moved from one side to the other? Because one side is now, well, you get the point. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you know, part of what we are driving at, I think, is not too far from that point that there, you know, and look, you can't paint with too broad a brush. Right. When you say the left, that's a big space and there are places on the left that are are adventurous and are willing to push boundaries.

But that sort of center left space that has tended to dominate the comedy world. Again, think of the big institutions, I don't know,ls or the uh you know back when the daily show mattered that kind of thing right they were uh they that center left space has uh become a place that is more risk averse i think there's no there's no question about that right uh and you know a lot of that comes from reasonably good instincts about aiming towards inclusivity and these kinds of things. But at the same time, you know, risk aversion is death to comedy, right? If you're, if you're, if you're not willing to cross boundary, I mean, all, all comedy is some kind of violation, right? I mean,

there's question about how that violation has to be framed to be funny, but you gotta be willing to violate something. Right. And I do think that, you know, the, the, as comedy is mainstream to maybe become, you know, sort of associated or certain parts of the comedic landscape got really heavily associated with the Democratic Party. Think of people like Jon Stewart sort of becoming sort of the leader of the Democratic Party in some sense in the early 2000s, sort of holding rallies on the Capitol lawn and these kinds of things. There's a certain risk aversion that came with that. And, and, you know, whether or not you enjoy these comedians on the right, they don't have the old school national review risk aversion, right. That that notion of conservatism is not what we're talking about when we're

talking about right-wing comedy, talking about people who do embrace breaking norms, you know, sometimes in ways that you know, bring out all kinds of funny possibilities, sometimes that are going to be super offensive, and it becomes a matter of sort of taste. But I do think that question of risk aversion has shifted, and that center left institutions have become increasingly risk averse, and that hurts the possibility for comedy for sure. What are the, like, would you say the top five themes of right wing comedy at this point in terms of like joke like like joke themes like yeah yeah sure a percentage is just making fun of wokeness like yeah yeah that's a great question yeah yeah yeah i don't know if i can name five

off the top of my head but but i will say the the thing that unites we cover a range of of right wing comedians in the book so mainstream folks like greg gutfeld and jesse waters on fox news uh joe rogan the bad they're not they're not comedians right they're they're funny personalities they're not they're not no they're not comedians but they're doing shows they want to brand as comedy but yeah they're not they're not stand-up certainly okay i'll say the thing that kind of unites this vast range of right wing comedians is a collective sort of political, ideological and cultural enemy, the libs. Right. A lot of that comedy seeks to sort of take as a punching bag. Yeah. Many of the elements that you might name, wokeness and political correctness on the left, they might not always agree on specific issues like some of the identity-based things, trans and gay rights, but they are more often than not united behind an

effort that will make Nancy Pelosi look bad or feel bad, right? Or make some member of the K-Hive come after them on Twitter if they go after one of their favorite politicians. What's the K-Hive? That's the group of folks online who are very supportive of our current vice president, Kamala Harris. Oh, the K is for Kamala. I never heard that expression. I'm so sorry that I had to introduce that. The only really right-wing stand-up that I can name is Nick DiPaolo.

The only right-wing, like these other people they mentioned are not standups, as you had said. Yeah. Well, Nick DiPaolo is really the only one. Maybe Andrew Schultz a little bit. Well, Andrew Schultz, I mean, I've got to say, you know, I'd say that right wing is not the most accurate phrase to best describe what we're seeing. I think it's more libertarian. And it may even be old left in a certain sense like

i don't know what dave dave chappelle certainly would not describe himself as right wing no yet he's uh he's making a lot of jokes that are music to the ears of right of center people yeah i mean there's look for sure i think that the most common political you know the box that would get ticked for the people we write about probably is sort of libertarian, heavy towards the free market stuff, heavy towards the free expression stuff. But, you know, you also, you know, Babylon B, for example, which comes from a very avowedly evangelical Christian perspective, you know, ties right into that world. You know, you get people like, I mean, we talked about some kind of wacky characters, people like Bronze Age perverts and these like sort of very Trumpy, like like very nationalist kinds of types that tie into that world, too, who are not libertarian. They're sort of like, I don't know, paleo or like old school kind of nationalists, very, very sort of unusual worldviews.

I mean, I think it's a good point that stand-up is not the place where this thrives best, right? And we are constantly referring to in this book the way in which it's really sort of the way that new media works, sort of the way that algorithms line up a feed on a Facebook or a Twitter or wherever else that puts together people from, you know, yeah, that libertarian space, but the places around it and sort of puts them together. You know, can I interrupt you for a second? Please. Yeah. It can't be emphasized enough that the censorious center for my whole lifetime was the right. So if

you think of the you think of the movie Animal House, dean wormer or any dean wormer type character was a shiichi right winger but if you were to make animal house today he could totally be an uptight left wing woke whatever the diversity and inclusion person could play that yeah that's true dean wormer of today the old dean wormer character i mean might not even reverberate with many people anymore and that but that was the natural target of comedy and i i just think that that's there's that's really it's a simple explanation but i think there's a whole lot to that you want to get under the skin of the people who don't want you to say certain things and who is that, right?

Now, I have to say, Periel is not going to believe this. Like, I've been hearing a lot of jokes lately about this, these laws that want to, that replace women or mothers with birthing people. Have you heard this? And you're not going to believe this, Periel. I have a little sympathy for the birthing people i i don't like there's something there's something mean about i mean i'm so what part of this am i not going to believe you cannot believe it i'm saying it

no you have sympathy for those that want to use the term birthing people yes i actually do i i think that um i said i'm so unwoke and i and i disagree with them and most importantly i i stand against i despise the way they you know try to control what we think and almost like in a fascist like way they want to control what we're allowed to talk about and they want to they want consequences they want accountability they want to ruin people's lives. If they say I'm all that, but on the other hand, you know, kindness, forbearance, respect, small acts of respect, kind of create a, a groove of thinking and a structure that lead to a, um, a society that is civil and lack of respect is, you know, is a building block of hatred and bigotry. So, you know, what's so terrible on you? What's so terrible about,

look, put it this way. We all snicker, right? But if any of us had a transgender or non-binary child, all of a sudden we'd see the world differently. All of a sudden we look at the world and worry about our child. And what can the world do to allow our child a more fulfilling life? And what changes would I like to see to make my child happier. And a little thing like, you know, in the laws, using terms which seem a little weird, it's not the end of the world. On the other hand, I will say that if you are a member of a tiny population, you can't expect the whole world to just turn itself upside down to accommodate you. If you're, I can't think of a better example, but if you're born with six fingers, you can't walk into a glove store and say, well, how come you didn't ask me if I wanted a six

finger glove? Like, you know, you have to be reasonable. I don't like that Disney is not saying boys and girls anymore. If you have a non-binary little child, they will have to get used to the fact that overwhelmingly, I mean, overwhelmingly, the world breaks down into little boys and little girls. So I'm not going that far, but in ways that don't hurt anybody, I do find myself saying, well, okay, it's kind of nice. I don't, I'm not, I'm not outraged, but they, I mean, these comedians go to town on this, right? All right. I'm off. I'm really digressing, but it was, it was one of my shower thoughts today. Go ahead. Well, I mean, you asked what sort of the main targets of the jokes are or whatever. I mean, that is the sort of definitional issues, right?

These things where the liberal world has an instinct, which I think is what you described, sort of trying to be sensitive, trying to be understanding of people in different situations. But yet language doesn't quite work with it, right? It's really hard to come up with a language system that, you know, A, gets rid of like, you know, thousands of years of language and B, accommodates everybody, right? That is the most, probably the most common thing we see in right-wing humor that connects is finding these inconsistencies and sort of taking them to extremes or using analogies, comparing trans athletes to uh you know bicyclists who want to ride motorcycles like this kind of thing or basically like language jokes

right uh you know that that find the the absurdity in trying to do that perfectly right in trying to to make everybody happy with that well the trans athlete thing is a perfect example because i mean perry is going to object to this i mean perryiel is internally objecting to all of this, but that's fine. I thought you'd agree with everything I just said about the birthing people. Well, I don't, first of all, I don't think that you have to have a trans or non-binary child in order to adopt that position. Is that what you thought I said? No, it's not. Okay.

It's not what I think you said. It's what i'm saying what i was saying is that people who feel this way should stop for a second and just imagine the shoe on the other foot if they did have a child that was facing this uphill battle in life yeah of course they would then be getting they would then probably not laugh at these things quite as easily they said to yourself they said to themselves you know, maybe it would be nice for my child. And what's the big deal, right? Anyway, but go ahead, Pearl. Sorry. Well, I think that by and large, the problem is that there is a really serious lack

of understanding and respect for those people. Like they don't, they're not even acknowledged. And like, what is the big fucking deal to be more inclusive, to have a gender neutral bathroom or to include more words? I don't think the language is hard. I think it's hard for people who don't want to be open to it. But I mean, I think that it's been introduced into the culture and into the world um all right you can you you can i i i i already regret my my softness you've convinced me that i was wrong because obviously you you understand that at some point just because something exists in a small number in nature you don don't expect everybody just to, I mean, you could get a little absurd about it. What number of people need to have a particular thing before you want to change the language to accommodate them? That's not an easy answer.

But let me just say one other thing. This, as opposed to what I've just described, I think there's almost, there's virtually nobody I've met when pressed who thinks it was actually just fair to think of the transgender athlete just wiping the floor with, you know, biologically female swimmers. And that is such fertile ground for humor because even people who will publicly refuse to admit they feel that way, they will involuntarily laugh at these jokes because everybody deep down knows something is not right here, that all of a sudden people are finding a new gender and

just destroying the competition of the previous gender uh so you agree with you i mean peril you always you always dug in on this but you're beginning to agree with that no i mean we haven't seen any athletes transgender male athletes winning gold medals right and clearly there's something going on here. And of course, this is what humor attacks. I think that that is safe ground for humor. I think unsafe ground for humor would be, you know, Noam, you mentioned on this podcast several times,

it's statistically, and I hate, you know, I don't even like talking about it, but statistically there were white people that got shot by cops. There are white people that got shot by cops. There are white people that got shot by cops too. And that statistically, you know, there's reason to believe that the police do not shoot or kill black suspects at a proportion.

The data show, as far as we know, this is data by black economists, that that killing is not statistically just a statistical disparity. However, day-to-day brutality is a disparity. So just to be clear, the actual killing of, especially of innocent people doesn't really skew by race, but the day-to-day manhandling and various humiliations does so go ahead that's so that's so okay so the fact that killing at least according to the data you cited doesn't yeah is not you know is not disproportionately against people of color that to me is a subject you couldn't joke about it you could joke about and comics do joke about black police officers killing black suspects. I could name

comics that have jokes about that. About killing black suspects? Yes, like about how being black and the cops shoot us and, you know. Oh, I see, I see. They're not joking about the event. They're joking about the concept. Yeah, yeah. No, but the brunt of the joke is the cops, not the black people

being shot. But if you then made the brunt of the joke, the cops, not the black people being shot. But if you then made the brunt of the joke, people that believe bogus statistics, you wouldn't get away with it. Yeah, yeah. It's just a subject that's just, forget it. I mean, you can joke about a trans athlete. That can be done, but you can't, you're not going to be joked. There's certain things, forget it.

You are not going to get a laugh, except maybe with a certain group of people. Very limited. Going back to a point that Matt raised earlier, that whether it's right or left, all humor has some violation at the core of it, that the audience has to be unexpected and kind of jolted out of their sort of status quo mindset. And what you've described there are two places that absolutely left liberal comedians aren't willing to go anymore. Some for very good reasons, maybe some for bad faith reasons, that now is being occupied by right wing comedians. And so that's kind of a central theme of the book over and over is that the left is kind of operating

on this self-censoriousness where the right wing is the ones now kind of pushing, pushing, pushing against whatever the controversial topic of the day is and at least willing to joke about it. Now, are you gentlemen tenured professors? We are. We are, yeah. We are.

So you can speak a little more freely. What is it like being professors who, I'm assuming, don't toe the line on the ideas of the day when it comes to wokeness and stuff like that? You guys get a lot of flack. You're worried. Do your students object? Do we know that they don't toe the line or they just.

Yeah, we can clarify. I mean, I'm happy. Yeah. So, you know, like there's different kinds of towing the line. Right. The thing that we are not doing, we're not towing the line quite clearly. And, you know, some people who, you know, don't they subtweet us a lot is simply acknowledging the idea that that something on the right can right can be successful in terms of comedy, that it should be called comedy. I mean, that might sound ridiculous. I don't know, talking to comedians, right? That there would be some sort of political test for comedy. But the reality is in a lot of comedy scholarship, that also might sound ridiculous. I don't know if the idea of comedy scholarship sounds ridiculous or not. But in that space, there is an idea that there's a

political test for comedy. So that's the first point in which we don't toe the line. You know, in terms of our own politics, I mean, we're liberals, broadly speaking, but we're people who are interested in really understanding the breadth of things, right? And not trying to, one thing that the book clearly doesn't go for is the idea that if you don't like something, you should hide it. You should ignore it and put it to the side. And so there's a certain extent to which, yeah, you give, I mean, I've given students, you know, like a chapter from the book that we wrote about the Babylon Bee or something, right, which has got various right wing perspectives in it. And the most common

response I get from it is like, I thought it was so funny. And then I realized it was wrong. Right. Then I then I realized that like, oh, wait, wait a minute, it's coming from a different perspective. Right. And as a as an educator, right, that's good as far as I'm concerned. Right. That really makes you kind of question where you're coming from. What does funny mean to you? That sort of thing. So to that extent, I mean, I'm not worried about getting in trouble by any stretch, but like we ruffle some feathers with it. No question. What do you guys think, Professor Marks, you want to add to that? No.

What do you guys think just because it's related, I'm sure you have some thoughts on it. What do you think about, what do you think is going to happen with Elon Musk if the deal closes and he takes over Twitter? What kind of change is that going to make? I am going to give a very boring and short answer and say absolutely nothing significant. I think everybody who's been posting is going to continue posting. They might threaten to leave. They might do X, Y, and Z, but that website and ones like it are too powerful and entrenched in how we conduct our day-to-day lives as like media people that I don't see any sort of radical change coming down. If anything, it'll be more maybe commercialized and like financialized because that's just who he is. But all the sort of micro issue issues of like cancellation and censoring people, I just kind of shrug at the end of the day. I don't think it's going to be a big deal. No. One point we made, I think a week ago or two weeks ago is, is how people are pretty much saying

what they want already on Twitter. And it's just amazing what people are saying and somebody i've made made the movement somebody made the point also that twitter you know a lot of twitter is not in english and and the censors can't even censor it if they don't have enough manpower to that that are that are uh that speak these other languages so twitter's already kind of a free for all well here here's here's like some easy questions. Do you think do you think Trump will be allowed back on Twitter? Hmm. Let's hope not. I think he has to. I don't I don't see how Elon Musk. I thought I thought I should not let the former president. That's a simple, tough question. I mean, gosh, yeah, probably.

Yes. I don't know what you think, Nick. That's a great question. I mean, I think that's a stumper. Right. Whether whether Musk actually goes through with the deal and keeps it, I think we're going to see Trump back on Twitter eventually. He's too. Whatever you think of him and his politics, I don't like them and him, but he is going to be the Republican nominee for president in two years. I don't think so. But that's it. I just don't think you can keep him away for very long. Right. And the commercial motive there is also obviously pretty intense. I mean, I think there's a lot of sentiment also. I don't know if it's right or not, but I mean, I think in the left, in the left world that,

that keeping him off empowers him in some way and sort of empowers his narrative in ways that protects himself. It protects. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's another way. So Twitter, the offer was forty four billion dollars. Right. I mean, I think that's more than you would pay for Delta Airlines. How the fuck is Twitter making this kind of money? They're not. They're not. Oh, they're not. Oh, they're not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How are they worth forty four billion dollars? Musk. Well, Musk, first of all, Musk wants it. I mean, when you have that kind of money, what do you care? And then, and then he, he probably thinks he can, and he probably can figure out ways to monetize it better, but you know, nothing's a short thing. We saw CNN plus crash and burn from the smartest people in that industry. So anybody can, can blow it. But, and what about,

is it the Babylon Bee thrown off Twitter? They're on and off periodically but they're on now aren't they what's the rule what gets you kicked off though like well they get demonetized off of things all the time right like facebook constantly is is taking their uh posts and demonetizing or shutting them down we should check i mean i'm not familiar with them being currently off. I mean, look, the Babylon Bees business model, primarily at this point, is saying that they've been canceled and raising money off of that.

So like, I mean, I assume their account is up on Twitter right now. Yeah, but the fact that you asked the question is really indicative, right? Like that is a big part of what that website does is take its comedy and turn it into a different sort of political good, right? Like not just the politics of the jokes or whatever, but that, you know, you are somehow part of a political fight by supporting their whatever jokes, right? We write about this extensively in the book. Like there are little grains this extensively in the book. Like there's,

there are little grains of truth to the idea that the Babylon Bee gets like over watchdogged. And like, sometimes they'll make a joke, which is like absolutely clearly, obviously a joke. Any idiot would know it's a joke. And nonetheless, it gets tagged as misinformation and demonetized. But like, there's a little bit of that. And then they talk about it to make it seem like it's sort of constantly happening um which is part of the sales pitch of a lot of comedy on on you know very certain parts of the right right is not just uh crossing boundaries but then like really making a show of it like really making that part of their identity that they cross those boundaries even if it's know, in the case of Babylon B, I think of limited truth. I think people on the left update. Yeah. It looks like he bought it. No, it was right. Yeah, we know that. I think I read that a few hours ago. I don't know how we're discussing

it from the New York Times. Ariel, we know this. This is why I asked the question. Oh, you knew that already? I thought you were asking what's going to happen if it goes through. If it closes. Yeah. I think there'll be a process where it needs to close.

You see what I go through here? Please stick around and see what I go through here please stick around see what i go through and i forget what i want oh oh but listen there is a fact of life that i think that um people have to accept which is that uh when people who feel strongly about a political point of view are in charge of something and have the power to make decisions about things, no matter what they think they're going to do, they end up with a heavy hand. And then each time they do it, it becomes habitual and they become inured to it and it gets worse and worse. So we did see Twitter do some really terrible things. This Hunter Biden laptop story and banning the New York Post. This is crazy. And the people who can't see how terrible

it was, they only can't see it because it wasn't Donald Trump Jr.'s laptop, in which case they'd see it in a half an instant that, of course, this was a huge story for people who thought it was a huge story. I don't really care about his laptop, but I understand that. You know General Mills only has a market cap of $43 billion? All right. They make stuff that you can

buy, yeah. Similarly, Adidas $42. How the fuck is Twitter $44 billion? It's the stock market similarly the Wuhan the China virus theory

what do you call it the lab leak they banned that and it's not an accident they banned that so if Musk could simply stop those clearly political decisions and leave in place the obvious hate speech restrictions and the obvious doxing restrictions and stuff like that, I think he'd be on to something. I don't know. Do you think he can limit?

I mean, you said yourself before, once you start making those distinctions, there's mission creep, right? I mean, is there a reason that doesn't apply to Elon Musk is my question for you. Yeah, I think I could do it too. I think there's a certain people who really, no, because I really believe in that stuff.

Comedy seller enterprises, $22 billion. Yeah, I believe in that stuff much more than i care i i am able maybe i'm unique in this way but i i really am able to separate that stuff i could easily easily as a matter of fact i enjoy it i think that's what it is i think the left is actually offended by these things but when i when i read something that's like outrageous i'm like oh that's great let's get him on the show let Let's talk about it. Let's argue about it. I don't have that instinct to want to see it buried. You just, you just need to. And I, and I think that's where Musk is coming from.

I don't really know what his politics are. I don't think he's anti, you know, I don't think he's pro racism. Right. Yeah. I don't know. I think he's pretty along the lines of sort of libertarian Joe Rogan acolytes type personality that, you know, he lives in Austin now, tax free states where Rogan lives. And I don't know that he has like a political party affiliation as much as he has like a I'm a rich guy. Leave me the fuck alone and let me do what I want kind of ideology. And of all the people in the hundred plus billion club, do you think Elon Musk is most deserving, if that word has any meaning whatsoever, of his?

No, Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos is. You think it's Bezos. Jeff Bezos is. I personally don't think any single human should own or deserve that amount of money, but call me crazy. Well, your name is Mark. No, that's right. No, I'll tell you what, Jeff. Listen, this is interesting. But the thing about that is Jeff Bezos started by delivering items from the back of his trunk of his car, right? And I remember ordering from Amazon at that time. And he plowed every single dollar he made back into that company, operating at a loss for years and years and years and years.

And now he's at the point where I understand what you're saying, that nobody should have that kind of wealth. But to say that, you'd have to then say that he has no right to make any percent of a cent on any additional item that he sells. And that's not really tenable. If he sells another book, we can't tell him you have to do that on us, you know, like or on you, like you. He has a right to make some profit on every item that he sells. Otherwise, I don't that's almost I don't know what you wouldn't call it slavery, but it's something confiscatory about it.

Does he have an obligation to pay his workers more? That's another question. So and, you know, as as globalism happens and markets become huge, when a when a store owner is built to sell to a few thousand people in his neighborhood and now he can sell to a few billion people, you are going to have this kind of crazy wealth. And we haven't really figured out how to handle that. But I would say that before we say it's a bad thing, we should do the thought experiment of what if every billionaire not living in America were to move to America? I think that would be good for America and would also increase the wealth gap. Right. So it's not clear to me how it all pans out. But so anyway, I just think these are very complex issues.

So I've been anyway, I would say Jeff Bezos. And if you think about the good that Amazon did during the pandemic. I mean, the, the, the ability that these technologies, especially Amazon allowed us to, to get through this pandemic with things delivered to our doorstep that we needed. This is a tremendous thing that he's done for the good. So I, I'm, you know, if he makes ridiculous money and gives it to charity or whatever, I think we're, we're, we're focusing on the wrong thing. Anyway, that's my particular take on it. I'm sure anybody named Marx will. Oh, I know. I just want to tell you what it is about this, the censorship thing. So this is not Twitter, it's Facebook, but if Professor Sinkowitz, well, maybe I'm going to be, I'm going to be

indulgent stereotypes and assume that he's going to care about this. I, on Facebook, simply posted, I was annoyed that Chuck Schumer was silent during the last Gaza war in Israel, did not say a single word about it. So I posted on Facebook, his tweets, one of his tweets, only one tweet from the previous Gaza war, where he said something to the effect of anybody who finds a moral equivalency between Hamas and the state of anybody who finds a moral equivalency between Hamas and the state of Israel is blah, blah, blah, something. And I posted that on my Facebook, and Facebook made me take it down. They tell me it violated some sort of community standard or something like that. I had no comment on it. It was just Schumer's tweet. And their bot or their AI, whatever it is, flagged this, took it down. I appealed it

and it remained down. So wake up everybody. It is a real issue. I mean, that is a real issue. All I did was post a United States Senator's tweet. So. Yeah. I mean, there's no, there's no rhyme or reason. It's, you know, it's always anecdotal. I totally believe your anecdote. And there's I can send it to you. I can. Yeah, I'm not saying when I say by anecdotal, I don't mean questionable. I just mean, like, you get these like little examples and you see particularly around anti-Semitism. You do see insane stuff that that gets posted and gets reported. And then the thing comes back and says it didn't violate standards.

I mean, you know, by and large, you said back and says it didn't violate standards i mean you know by and large you said it right there's some sort of bottom i mean much of that process is automated and i don't know what it takes and they're not going to let you know what it takes to get it up to a human being or an individual but it's not getting to somebody who understands these issues i mean i think that's that's the monster it is automated so there's a key word in there and and you could appeal it you could appeal it i think right but he's saying he's saying he did appeal it and it didn't come back i mean you know associated with this or that through some sort of algorithm i for sure i mean the the lack of transparency on it is is maddening um and i mean the i would say you you can you can sort of find

people from like a wide range of positions on an issue complaining about this sort of thing. You know, you're not wrong. I mean, what comes across my desk very often are, you know, outrageous anti-Semitic stuff that's being posted in the context sometimes of Israel things, sometimes just, I don't know, other stuff that doesn't violate community standards, these kinds of things. It certainly erodes trust in this platform. I mean, there's no question. And maybe that's a good thing. But with these massive, massive platforms, we have the incredible amount of data going second by second.

You know, you can't possibly get that to be accurate and consistent with these issues. The question is... Is it the Ching Ching sound? No, that was here last week. Is that from you? Is that a tip for me it's uh you know like i'm i'm a little harder hearing because all the years i was playing um music loud music and i tried to find it something's coming up and i tried to find i sampled like a hundred different text message notification sounds to pick out which one had the frequencies

that i could hear the most easily like it was in my pocket or something. And it turned out, I don't know if it's because of the frequencies or just my association, it turned out to be a cash register. No Jewish jokes, please. I'm reporting you for anti-Semitism. So that's really the reason I have that. I should probably change it. All right. Well, you guys are great. Dan, Dan introduced the book one more time or maybe you guys should plug it. Go ahead. Plug the book. Okay. Let me just, I have to get the title right here. Yeah. The book is called a that's not funny.

How the right makes comedy work for them. It's out on May 3rd. You can pre-order now at all the the places where you order books including amazon which i'll make an exception for is there is there that's right is there a kindle edition there is there is yeah i only use kindle nowadays unless i have no choice i prefer you know what i like to i read on my phone because for example say i'm eating at a restaurant i can hold the phone in one hand and eat with the other. Why are you reading? It's just like porn, but for reading.

Why a book requires two hands? Yeah, we get it. I'm saying. That is not the best thing about a Kindle. The best thing about a Kindle is that you can, now you're professors, you probably don't ever do this, but you can look up the word instantly while you're reading it, if you don't know what the word means. And I find that has changed my life. Like I used to skip over words or get the wrong impression of what they

meant. I'm trying desperately to get my kids to get in the habit of just looking up every word that they don't know the meaning to. And by the way, if you really know your Kindle, it also keeps track of every word that you do that with. And then it has a thing where you can quiz yourself on the words that you've looked up over time. So how can you begrudge this guy money? Wow.

It's a fantastic invention. What do you think about Amazon? I mean, I guess it's devastated local bookstores. Yeah, it's horrible. And you might say, well, that's capitalism. And aren't like they're like workers like sitting there in like actual fucking diapers. They're not allowed to take like pee breaks. It's like Jeff Bezos has enough money.

OK, it's like we get it. It's brilliant. You're a genius. You figured out this whole thing. Like, great. But first of all all as far as the workers let's just let's just all acknowledge that there's never been uh uh more jobs that were unfilled than there are now and you know the work of the books well bookstore workers are not

it's not exactly a high skilled job there's kids and stuff so i'm saying that you know that is capitalism this This industry wanes and this industry grows. It seems to me we have more jobs than ever. As far as the diaper thing, that was disturbing to read, but yet there are all sorts of federal laws up the wazoo about what you can and can't have workers do. And Amazon, except for this one instance in Queens, wherever it was, or I forget where it was, they seem to turn down unions. So I would take these isolated reports with a grain of salt. I don't know that Amazon workers are that unhappy. I don't, but maybe. I mean, I think that's a different issue altogether. It's pretty widely reported. I will tell you this. If you want to know where the worst treated

workers are, it is not at places like Amazon. It is a little, little businesses that have, that are under the radar, like, like, like, like a bodega or something where they have some immigrant working in the basement, peeling potatoes or vegetables for 20 hours and and he's maybe he's he leave this is when you are a high profile like amazon you are so motivated to treat your employees in a way that can't ruin you as opposed to a diner off a highway in idaho where the boss has his way with every employee and every waitress and whatever it is. So I don't, don't, whatever's going wrong in Amazon, don't assume that the small business is where the workers are safe. That's a, that's probably not the case. Anyway. Both be bad though, right?

They can both be bad. But, but, but the thing is that the, the, the huge high profile business like Amazon can only be bad for so long because somebody drops a dime and the whole world goes crazy about it. They'll even pass legislation about it if Amazon does it. You try getting that kind of attention if you work, you know, it's some small business. But I don't I have a feeling the employees at Amazon are. I don't know. Like, I don't know. What do we worry about?

Worry about Amazon? You worry about the place where these Amazon goods are manufactured in China. Both. Why is, why is it mutually exclusive? Why can't it be? Because obviously the treatment. Perfectly timed incident. Because the treatment in China is of a, of a difference in kind. So much worse, so much worse than what's going on in Amazon. They have nets, right?

The nets outside the windows, people jumping out the windows. No, is that true? Listen, Prairie, the day you don't, the day you put down your iPhone and say, I don't feel good about this because who had to make it? I will take this stuff more seriously. All right. Anyway, anything else? I guess that make it. I will take this stuff more seriously. All right. Anyway. Anything else? I guess that's it.

Thank you. Wait, where can we find you guys? Where can everybody find you? Or just buy the book? You tweet? What are you doing? Yeah. Well, you just buy the book. That's definitely better. And the best thing about Kindle is that it's just pure profit.

Am I detecting a Canadian accent of any kind boston okay the best thing about kindle is it's pure profit to you well not to me we make nothing but like for amazon or whatever right like you're selling a book without someone printing a book right like this is this is the true brilliance of it right is that you sell the same product over and over and over again. Anyway, so buy the Kindle edition. That's great. Where to find us? We can do that.

Twitter, I'm at Media Studied. And I'm at Marks Nick. And by the way, Dan has a book out also on Kindle. It's called Iris Spiro After COVID. No, Before COVID. Before COVID. Before COVID. Iris Spiro After COVID. No, Before COVID. Before COVID. Before COVID. The sequel is After COVID.

Iris Spiro Before COVID. And you guys should read it. It's great. It really is great. Well, if you're into the comedy world, then I would recommend it in particular. And Periel has books too. All right.

On that note, thank you guys very, very much. Periel's books are not available on Kindle. Thank you very, very much for coming. Are you doing an audio book? Hope so. I believe my books are. Is that for us or Perry Hill?

Maybe you should get Dan to do the audio book for you. He has a very distinctive voice and he's a... Put him on the list. Yeah. Oh, no, not again, Dan. You're getting rejected again. I'll call you in six months. We're still waiting on that. So we don't have audio yet.

From our first segment of our show before you guys got here. Podcast at ComedySeller.com for comments, questions, suggestions. Good night, everybody. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you, guys. Bye.