The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The Cellar Reopens!

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

Andrew Hankinson is a journalist and author. His second book, Don't Applaud. Either Laugh or Don't. (At the Comedy Cellar) is a portrait of the iconic New York comedy club.   Jon Laster is a stand up comedian, actor, writer, producer and regular at The Comedy Cellar.

This is live from the table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy style, coming at you on Sirius XM 99 and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. This is Dan Natterman. I'm here with Noam Dorman, as always, the owner of the world-famous comedy style, Ariel Ashton Brand is here. All the way from Newcastle-on-Tain, England, we have Andrew Hankinson. He is a writer who has contributed to many publications, including The Observer, The Guardian, The New Yorker, and Wired. And his second book, Don't Applaud, Either Laugh or Don't,

at the Comedy Cellar, A Portrait of the Iconic New York Comedy Club, is out on May 4th. We also have with us John Laster, stand-up comedian, actor, writer, producer, and comedy cellar regular. Welcome, one and all to the program i'm coming from by the way aruba and my wi-fi is not as good as it could be but i hope everybody can hear me well enough absolutely or this doesn't seem to be helping

sucks here at the holiday in aruba i don't think that's a Wi-Fi issue. Anyway, go ahead. I give the hotel four stars except for the Wi-Fi. And the hot tub is also terrible. The bubbles are anemic at best. Prostitution is legal in Aruba, right? I think it's either it's legal or they look the other way. But it's legal enough in New York that, you know, I don't know too many people that have an issue finding a prostitute if they need one. Kind of like my joke about pot.

I remember, because my friend called me up all excited. He's like, Dan, let's go to Colorado. I was like, well, what do you want to go there for? He's like, well, pot is legal there. I said, well, I got a better idea, but let's just smoke it right here in New York. How about that? And we'll close the door.

And, uh... I think we just might get away with it. you smoke it right here in new york how about that and we'll close the door and uh i think we just might get away with it i'll bet if we anyway we're here to talk about a new book that's coming out may 4th all about the as if the comedy seller doesn't get enough publicity a book is coming out dedicated to the comedy seller a book I read and I did enjoy it. I think that Periel and Noam read it. I don't know if I read every page, but I read a lot of it. And Steve Fabricant read the whole thing. Well, the book is written in a rather interesting style. I thought it was just going to be open it up.

It says, and you know, it starts in 1982 or whenever the Comedy Cellar started and goes chronologically but the book actually uh is not formatted why don't you tell us maybe andrew uh how the book is formatted and why you chose the particular format that you did um well my agent told me not to do it like that um so basically it's it's hard it's of, it started out as kind of a biography of a place of the comedy cellar and when you're telling the biography of a place or any kind of biography sometimes the early years are a bit boring, nobody really wants to read those bits and this kind of a big chunk of

this book was about kind of Louis CK as well and the stuff you know, Noam's kind of handling of that situation so I thought I could just start at that and work backwards from there then people get the thing that they probably really came for and then they work backwards from there there was also a thing that noam had said at one point which was um you know it's it's like we're looking at the world through a magnifying lens and we just keep zooming in and zooming in and zooming in so there's always something ugly to look at and i thought like over the years what if we zoomed out and zoomed out and kind of saw where we came from and you know how we got here why we got to this point and you know why we progress even you know with the

friction that comes with progressing why we do it and whether we're progressing at the right pace whether we've kind of made the right decisions along the way what it was like before before we kind of you know you know and changed our language so much before we did made all these decisions what it was like before and and was it really you know better that way as some people kind of hint these days or was it better now well also the book is is not written in a normal kind of narration style it's basically a compilation of interviews and emails yeah well I didn't know how to tell them I didn't know how to tell this story really so you just start experimenting experimenting trying to figure it out and most of its transcripts of interviews with people and I guess the main reason I chose to's transcripts of interviews with people.

And I guess the main reason I chose to do transcripts was when you talk to comedians these days and you put them on the record about stuff, you kind of, there's a great deal of risk for them. And I wanted to kind of show that they weren't volunteering to say these things, these comments, these quotes weren't coming out of nowhere, that there was someone like provoking them to say these things, there was someone leading them to say these things, these comments, these quotes weren't coming out of nowhere, that there was someone like provoking them to say these things. There was someone leading them to say these things.

There's also certain things that I wanted to do, like admit that I found some of the jokes funny that we're talking about. So I ended up feeling like I had to put myself in the book in some way and transcripts seem to be the best way to do that. If you're a longtime podcast listener, you'll recognize many of the anecdotes that are in the book. He discusses the Louis C.K. episode, the Sam Morrill controversy where Sam told a joke that provoked outrage among one of the customers. The table being moved. What else? The highlights of 9-11 and what happened after the one thing you didn't hit of

course was the COVID shutdown because I guess you were finished writing the book prior to the COVID shutdown that would have been I assume you would have put that in the book had it been published yeah I'd finished the book before that happened and we did talk to talk to my publisher about whether we should update it for the US version and they didn't want to. So we left it as it is. It kind of hints in one of the interviews with Noam, actually, like, you know, there's gonna be something coming on the horizon, something bad that's gonna cause, you know,

what's it gonna be? We're just waiting to see what it will be. And then this came along and the place was shut down for ages, you know? You could have gotten that as an answer for many Jewish interview subjects. Pretty generic Jewish answer. could have gotten that as an answer for many jewish interview subjects pretty generic jewish answer yeah but no so the covid side but you're right lots of it's stuff that's being mentioned on the podcast you know the kind of podcast is a kind of good lead for oh there's a little interesting story there's an interesting story and so you mentioned that sam

morel um story so what i did was take some stuff that had been mentioned on the podcast and then i went and interviewed people about those things but the interesting thing about that was i went and tracked down the customer and got her point of view of that situation and sort of see what she said about it and you know why it was that that joke upset her so much and stuff and we had her email already had kind of nose email to her that was kind of useful stuff but yeah i wanted to go and then talk to sam and i wanted to talk to her and kind of get um the other side of it that's kind of one of the main things i wanted to do with this book was also show that you know the audience um the audience gets a kind of a hard time sometimes when they complain and they kind of their complaint

gets not not by not by noam and the seller but some of the comedians kind of dismiss it a little bit and i just wanted to see whether see whether there was something more in these complaints and where they were coming from. I don't know if anyone else has any other questions, but I'm curious about this, Andrew. What made you want to write a book about the comedy seller? What made you want to

devote a few years of your life to doing a deep dive on this place? And what made you think that people will want to buy a book and on this place and what made you think that uh that people will want to buy a book and read about it like what is what is it the what is the allure of the comedy seller uh the thing that made me into it was basically um you know kind of all those the first of all louis ck when he kind of became famous in the UK, started looking up him on the internet,

discovered all those kind of Opie and Anthony comedians, and just the way that they talk to each other, this kind of honesty that they had with each other, you know, there was nothing like that in the UK that I could see, where the comedians talk to each other in that way. So I was really interested in that. They all talked about the comedy cellar.

The comedy cellar seemed to be the hub of all this stuff coming out. And then I think I heard you on one of Robert Kelly's podcasts. And I don't want to kiss your ass here, but it's like the way you talk about these things and the kind of responses that you gave to customers as well, I found that quite interesting. And I don't think that was very typical of kind of responses that you gave to customers as well. I find that quite interesting. And I don't think that was very typical of kind of comedy club owners necessarily.

And the way you took it seriously and gave them serious answers. And you kind of weighed up, you know, what they would like to happen with your principles. That was kind of the root of what I wanted to write about. I'm sorry, John, I'm gonna let you speak in one second. I'm sorry, but just to tell the audience. Andrew also started, I forgot,

you started by doing an art article where you did like, you tried, you took a comedy lesson and went on stage or something, right? Yeah, that was for British Airways' In-Flight Magazine. Basically, because I had heard about the comedy seller, kind of, you know, seen some stuff about it, read some stuff stuff about it and so i pitched it to this magazine british airways in flight magazine the great thing about an in-flight magazine is they'll they can fly you anywhere and they'll put you up in hotels so but they they wanted to send a celebrity over to do it and i

said well i want to write about it and they said okay well will you do stand up could that be the piece you go and do stand up there and uh that was so i didn't really want to but that was the way i could get the piece and come over and do it so i came with i did like rick chrome's class they have like an end of class show so i jumped up on stage and did that and rick chrome kind of guided me through jim norton gave me some tips and stuff um it was horrendous. It was absolutely horrendous. It's not my- I told you to drop that silly accent. Anyway, Laster, what did you want to say, Laster? Go ahead. You know, I think that, you know,

because, you know, sometimes when you're in the game, you forget, not in a bad way, but I think that sometimes we forget what a big deal the cellar is to people on the outside. Do you know what I mean? And I've not, I've not been at the cellar very long. I mean, I've been there for a while and I was, I was, by the grace of God, I was embraced a lot faster than people who've been there the amount of time that I've been there. You know, a lot of times people seemingly think that I've been at the cellar 15, 20 years like some of the veterans I have. But so I've been there a short enough time to remember the way that people revere the cellar when you're on the outside. Do you know what I mean?

And it's a, you know, and again, you know, like Andy was saying, not to blow smoke up your ass. It's a huge deal. Do you know what I mean? Like the cellar, not for nothing, man is the Yankee stadium of comedy. So when you say I work at the cellar, it changes the conversation. People no longer like, Oh, this guy does comedy. People are like, and I, and I mean very different from the clubs in L.A. because the clubs in L.A., they have open mic nights at those clubs. They have this.

They have that. When you say the cellar, that means that you went through a vetting that doesn't also include open mic night and some of these freak shows that they have at some of these other very good. No, I don't mean that in a bad way. I'm saying that these other clubs have other shit going on inside of them. The seller does not. Either you are in this elite group of folks or you're not. You don't do a mic at the seller.

You don't have some fucking juggling show that goes on after the cellar closes down it doesn't work like that you walked over some hot coals to get in that joint um and and and people treat it as such that's that's that's such an incredible sort of segue into the cellar reopening in well do we also want to discuss John's John's role in the book as John John is is is is mentioned more than mentioned uh there's a whole I think chapter about John Laster in in Andy's book there is I don't know if John even knows that though because i emailed you you know that no because i i emailed you to let you know i'm not gonna like it i didn't hear back but yeah no there's there's that night in them i think it was january 2017 when you were at mc in the show and uh do you remember that john yes i do

yeah absolutely yeah so i remember i interviewed you at the cellar one time about that. So that's, that's in there. Yeah. No, I definitely remember when we sat down and talked about it, bro. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But that's, you know, what's so crazy is even after all that, so that, that lineup, um, started with Ryan. They're talking about the night that during John Lasseter was emceeing and Amy Schumer, Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, Aziz. Am I missing anybody? Yeah.

John's going to go through it. You know what? Like I said, it started with Ryan Hamilton. I know this is going to sound crazy. I thought Ryan had the best set. I know it's going to sound... Yeah I thought Ryan had the best set. No, it's going to say, I know it's going to tell. Yeah. Ryan, Ryan. So Ryan, and then, and then after that, it was Dave Attell. And then Seinfeld and then Amy Schumer and then Aziz and then Chris Rock

and then Dave Chappelle. And it ended up being coined the billion dollar show. But now, but John, that point about ryan having the best set it's not necessarily surprising because when these bigger names come to the cellar they often will do all new stuff they're there to work on new material yes and ryan is there to kill because he we're not you know he's not tenured if you you will. So, you know, he has to kill. You know what? One of the craziest things is that I've never discussed about that show

is if you listen to that lineup, I still waited until the next day to ask Esty if she thought that that was the best lineup. Imagine hosting a show like that and still having to go check it in with somebody to make sure. And she said, oh yeah, that was the white whale.

She said, John, you know, there's been great shows here, but you rode the white whale. That was the big one. Perrielle, can you allow screen sharing, please? I can put the picture up. I know this is- You can. Perrielle has a checklist of one thing she's supposed

to do before the show. Okay. There we go. So this is the... I wanted to bring it up while Lasseter was describing it, but I couldn't. So this is it. It was... But Seinfeld had already gone home, you know, because his girlfriend wants... His wife likes him home early. And had Aziz,

Chris Rock, Amy Schumer, Dave Chappelle, Dave Attell, Jerry Seinfeld, and Ryan Hamilton all on the same show. You know what's funny about Seinfeld leaving 2-0 was when the show was about to start and people were filing into the table, the crazy thing was, as I'm asking, because I was like, hey, you know, what's going on over here? And we both said to one another, it doesn't matter because there's no way

we can get all of them up on this show. So we actually were like, don't worry about that. And I'm sure that's why Seinfeld left. There's no way that he would have known what was coming down the pike and he would have left. We all assumed no way we can get all them up on the show. And then to be flagrantly honest, once Amy Schumer went on stage, it broke the dam

because the show was already of a historical nature. You got Aziz who was getting ready for SNL. He's going on. So now you got Aziz, Amy Schumer, Seinfeld, Dave Attell have already hit the stage. So really, you would have been leaving Chris and Dave out. And they were like, fuck that.

You're not going to leave us out of this story. So now, you can get them all on the show. And you almost have to. People were asking me, yo man, were you killing in between the comedians? I was introducing them as fast as humanly possible. Who wants to fuck up that lineup? Sometimes the best thing you can do is shut up

and get out the way. Most of the time, John, I was gonna tell you that. Most of the time. I'm teasing. I interviewed Ryan Hamilton about that night as well. And the funny thing for Ryan was he had to leave as soon as his set was done because he had a flight to Atlanta for a show. So he did a set and then he didn't have any clue what was happening after that.

Yeah, he took, he, as a matter of fact, immediately walked out the door after he got on stage. Yeah, he walked straight out the door. So Andrew, after embedding yourself for how many years? How many years were you at the Cellar on and off from from beginning to so i mean i never really embedded there i just i made i i live in england i live in newcastle and i took trips over the first time i interviewed you was in about 2012 i think and the book came out in two days it came out last year in the uk and it's coming out this year in america so seven six or seven years

you were at this i was in contact with you yeah interviewing you on the phone or in person making trips over yeah so what did you learn from all those uh years you might you might be the world's greatest expert on the comedy seller uh i don't know we'll find we'll find out when it comes out and everyone points out my errors but um one of the things, when people, so we were just talking about that night of like, you know, all these amazing comedians, but I don't want people to think that the book's just like this thing saying like how amazing the seller is, it like tackles some of the difficult stuff as well, like the return of Louis CK and things like that. But what did I learn? Well, I think, you know, it kind of, I mean, God, it sounds like such a creepier, but it is about clarity of thought, like trying to think things through carefully when you're making a decision and stuff. I saw some of that going on. And one of the interesting things about this book and one of the things that drew me to the seller was kind of the relationship you and your dad basically it's that it's a it's a father and son book in a lot of ways you know it's it's

your dad had the seller and then you take it over and it's like how you steer the seller through these more difficult times your dad steered it through some difficult times financially and then you steered it through these difficult times you know culturally because you haven't you've taken a lot of flack technology means that the flack's a lot more vocal, and how you deal with that, and so you still have to steer the seller through these times, and other clubs can either kind of, you know, other clubs can become more outrageous, and it's like, do you become, as a seller, more outrageous, or do you kind of, you know, not go down that route? You got to try and figure all that stuff out. So I was kind of interested in that.

And it's, I mean, the whole big reason I started writing the book was as a kind of a, I felt defensive of what some of the people were saying about the comedians. And so I've learned a lot more about, you know, kind of different people's points of view on that whole debate. Yeah. I mean, you know what, in terms of you talking about view on that whole debate yeah i mean all you

know what in terms of you talking about like all those celebrities coming down to the cellar in the book it's not about that you know when when when especially newer comedians are talking about the cellar i am quick to tell them that that they have it backwards people think that the cellar is what it is because all of these big comedians come there. And I keep telling people, you know, the cellar is what it is because they treat little people like me, like they're big comedians. So when something happens, you feel like that's home. It's just the opposite. There's people, they don't allow people recording.

There's no picture taking. If somebody is acting an asshole, the seller puts them out. Other places, we got to put up with that shit. So it's really the protection of the comedians. It's not that these big comedians come down. It's that they treat comedians at all levels the right way that happen to then become bigger stars and come back.

You feel at home there. You feel safe there. You know no one's going feel at home there. You feel safe there. You know no one's going to record you there. You know that there's security there. You know they're going to feed you there. It's the taking care of us that makes us come back. It's not the other way around. It's not that these astronomically big comedians keep showing up to the cellar

and that's why it's the cellar. It's the other way around. It's the cellar treats the nobodies like me like they are somebody and then when something happens for them that's where they run back to you know you can work out there without a goddamn without it ending up on youtube and you putting bill cosby out of business um or you know one of these crazy stories taking off you can work on your material um without it being on YouTube in the morning. And you're treated like family there. That's why people come back.

Thanks, John. It's not the other way around. But it feeds on itself because everything you say is true. And then when the celebrities do come, of course, it gets talked about. The publicity machine goes into action. And that brings more audience to the comedy seller which makes it an even better place to work

so it's just a constant uh you know loop i'm going to clarify what dan said that we when he said the publicity machine i'm not sure what he means by that we don't have a publicity machine no i mean i mean i mean not not your publicity machine. I mean, you just Twitter and the other, and the people.com, whatever, whoever writes about these things. You don't do any publicity as far as I know on your end, but the publicity is there nonetheless. Yeah, well, this actually, Perry Alwyn and I

had a big argument about this the other day, where when that picture came out of the uh of all those people on stage on that bill united comedy night someone who worked for me had had uh instagrammed it and uh innocently enough you know and i and i got upset and i demand and i told him to take it down right away and and things like this have happened before imperils like why i can't imitate her voice but if somebody could scratch on a blackboard while i'm talking And I told him to take it down right away. And things like this have happened before. And Perrielle's like, why? I can't imitate her voice, but if somebody could scratch on a blackboard while I'm talking.

Jessica Person can. And she said, why don't you put it on? But what did you say, Perrielle? I said that that was the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. I said, why was the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. Why? I said, why?

Yeah, totally. Why would a comedy club want to put up a picture of like the best night they've ever had? That I'll be, I'll be, I'll be flagrantly honest with you, Norman.

I've never told anyone this to me. I was looking, I wanted there to be documentation. So I told Will Silvins to come downstairs, gave him my phone. I said, I'm going to run on stage and I'm going to drag them on stage after it's over. I need you to take this picture. And Will said, are you sure? And I said, bro, this needs to be documented. Take the picture. No. So to be clear, I'm happy. I'm happy to picture it. Absolutely. We'll always take pictures and that's great.

We definitely want the documentation. But Perrielle and many- You just don't want anybody to see it. No, I'm happy if people see it. If Chris Rock wants to tweet it out or somebody, if someone of the comedians wants to do it, that's their likeness to do what they please. And what people don't seem to understand is that i that i understand is that if if these guys come down

here and do the show and all of a sudden i'm hawking it and tweeting it and whatever it is it's a little vulgar you know it's like isn't isn't it enough that these guys came down and graced the stage and and and and created a historic night at the club without me trying to now take their likenesses, which I couldn't afford to go through their agent and then ever buy for a proper ad. Hey, I want, I want Chris rock to do an ad for the seller. No fuck. Okay. Give it, give us 200 grand. Maybe we'll talk. Right. So I snap a picture of him on the stage and it's not my place to tweet it out.

That's my opinion. It's his place to tweet it out. If customers do it, you know, what can I do about that? I benefit from that. I can't lie. Well, the customers, you got to keep in mind, by then, their stuff was bagged up, so they couldn't do it. But I'm not going to lie to you. The only reason that I asked Will to do it is because I was shot in the hallway when I saw them talking, and to them it was a big deal. I wasn't quite sure until I heard them talking, and that's when I said,

Will, I'm going to drag them on stage. When I do, fire. Because there needs to be some evidence, some documentation of what happened here. And then I posted it on my Instagram, and that's when CNN picked it up and wrapped it up. I've had this trouble with other people. And one time, I don't want to give the names and the details,

but one time somebody who worked for me without my permission did tweet out a famous comedian on stage and sure enough somebody in that person's family saw the tweet and the comedian was like you know what's up with this like and i you know i was like because he wasn't happy about the fact that all of a sudden his his like it was just tweeted out on stage um and i and i just i died a thousand deaths because it's it's it's exactly what i try to explain to everybody not to do and for whatever reason thank god because it gives me a competitive advantage for whatever reason people can't they don't get this i don't know what's so hard to get but they don't get it what's that day no you're saying your competitors don't get what's so hard to get but they don't get it what's that no you're saying your competitors don't get it you're the other comedy club owners you're saying yes get it yeah my my and my friends

perry l doesn't get it no no i want to be very clear with what i was saying when you guys were telling me what happened the other day my understanding was that everybody got on stage and posed for a picture. And what I was saying was that I think that in this day and age, if you're at that level of celebrity and you pose for a picture, you are tacitly in, you know, agreeing to that picture being posted somewhere. No. That's what I, you know, you're complicit in that. I think Perrielle's point is a valid one. They were on stage posing for that picture. I think the expectation that it would wind up somewhere,

somehow on social media, it was pretty much a certainty. Well, yes, but that's not my point. Of course it can wind up somewhere on social media. The point, when Chris walks down the street wearing a Nike t-shirt and somebody shoots a picture of Chris Rockery or he takes a selfie with someone and they post it, that's fine. But if Nike then puts it on their Twitter, that's a little bit different now now now they're grabbing grabbing an endorsement from him in a certain way it wasn't posted under the comedy seller instagram account however and that's something that you would have been against but it was posted and you benefited from it

chris rock posted it chris rock posted it that's terrific but that's that's for him to do can i just say from the point of view of like the audience as well? So from an audience member's point of view, you kind of do want a club to kind of maintain some mystique. And when any kind of venue or something like that starts like churning out loads of publicity stuff, putting loads of stuff, every time a comedian turns up, they're putting it online and things like that, it just doesn't seem the same to the audience. Whereas if you don't really know what's happening in that room down in the cellar

when you walk past it, you don't know who's going on stage that night. There's a mystique about it. And if the comedians tweet out pictures and stuff, that's interesting. But yeah, if the club starts, like I didn't even like it when you started doing T-shirts, I kind of don't want any of that stuff. You know, you just want it to be a functioning comedy room where people go down, tell jokes, and nobody knows what happened in that room,

and then they come out, unless the comedians tweet about it. I'll tell you about the people who don't know what happened. So that was, I think, a nine-something show. And we get out of there that night around one. The show went for over two hours, right? Like almost three hours, right, the show? But I feel sorry for the people who were standing in line for the next

show. Like, first of all, your show started three hours late and then you missed the greatest organic comedy show of all time. That's brutal. But they got to see Rich Moss. That's what happens a lot boss i had to pick somebody that happens a lot of the comedy seller where where uh a big celebrity will go on at the comedy

seller and he will oftentimes go uh do a longer set than you know the other comics do so the show runs late so the the next show starts late so not only did the the audience for the next show have to wait but then they missed you know the good show so that does sometimes happen and you know what you know what else is crazy dan that same night so so they're sitting around after it's over, right? And everybody was like, hey, are you going to go on the next show? But how do you top that show? So everybody just was like, no, we're done. We were all standing around like, yo, that was fucking crazy. And then everybody was like, yeah, I think we should quit.

But we're ahead and just shut it down. Like no one's going to, you know what I mean? So, Andrew, would you say that? because, you know, it's interesting, as you started writing this book, this whole kind of free speech issue, it was just bubbling up, right? But people really weren't worried about, I wasn't worried about stuff back then. And now it's gotten even scarier than it was when the book came out. Like, it just keeps getting worse and worse.

What are your, what's your comment on all that stuff? And how does it affect your book? Well, I mean, that's why I've had to be really careful about kind of what I've, you know, put in of comedians acts and stuff like that. Cause I'm talking about jokes that people made a few years ago. And then, you know, you don't want people to get in trouble jokes that people made a few years ago and then you know you don't want people to get in trouble for what they said a few years ago that's me dragging it up

um I mean that's what the book's about it's like how do we kind of navigate this do we just have these special places where you know there's more free reign that's kind of a comment that Stuart Lee this British comedian said you know he said there's got to be like a room where you have these different rules um and I think that's what we have to do I don't like I I have no idea how to control what's happening online anymore I kind of I've just ducked out of it in terms of social media and stuff because I just especially when you try to do something like write a book and I'm sure it's the same for comedians if you if you if you take too much pay too much attention to social media to twitter and things like that it just makes you remove any edge to anything you're doing it's just like this terrible editor on your shoulder just saying oh don't put that in don't put that in don't put that in

uh you know and i think that's just terrible for any kind of um work so I don't know what to do about it other than try and ignore it and just make sure you can defend what you what you do publish you know how the sales were and if this book about the seller is a best seller it's coming out now fantastic it's it's not out in america yet comes out in may i don't know how it's going to do the we couldn't when we're just talking about that free speech stuff there there's lots of stuff in here that's quite controversial and um i couldn't get an american publisher for it it's my british publishers but it went round loads of American publishers.

People looked at it. They didn't like it. I don't know. You know, it might be because of who's writing it, me. It might be because of the way I've written it, you know, the backwards thing. And it might be because of the content in the book as well. I don't know. But no American publishers wanted it.

I couldn't sell it. So the British publishers putting it out. It's not going to be a bestseller. I just hope that some people kind of read it and uh take interest in it the kind of people who are interested in that whole you know what can we say who can say it um debate are the people who are going to be interested in it i think and as soon as you say something like that people think oh this is going to be you know a one-sided affair it's it's not that i've tried to kind of like approach it from lots of different angles and and use lots of different examples to illustrate it sorry no it's okay no i you were talking while

i was trying to interrupt what what if if somebody um were to uh get cancelled from something in this book what do you think is the most likely uh uh candidate to get somebody cancelled in this book Oh, yeah, yeah. What worries you most? Me. Me. I mean, I've got stuff in there. You know, we did... There was a thing in it. There was an introduction in it for the British edition that had some more difficult words in it,

and that's been removed for the American edition. You know, I do some work for, like, you know... Well, you removed words? We removed... No, I removed the whole intro, because it was for the British audience, you know you removed words we removed we removed no i removed the whole intro and because it was for the british audience you know and andy andy andy's like the cover was in blackface so we turned that off my author's photo yeah was the word the n word or was it something was it something uh there's nothing as bad as that so it wasn't something less no no not not less yeah that was in there there was loads as bad as that. So was it something less horrible than that? No, no, no, not less, yeah, that was in there.

There was loads of those words in there because it was an interview I was doing with a British comedian where we were talking about all these different words. But these things mean, it's a different climate in the UK. I'm a British person. So when you get, I mean, the intro was me talking to a British comedian to try and explain the comedy seller

to the British audience so that's why we removed it but also I kind of wouldn't have wanted that in there for the American edition because like I'm a British person publishing a book into the American market I don't know America well enough to kind of do that sort of stuff the things have changed since I wrote the book where it's become so intent doesn. Intent of how you're going to use these words. You can't use these words when discussing these words either and stuff. So that's all kind of changed. So if I kept those words in there, it's like, you know, you can't pretend that you don't know the kind of rules have changed. So it's kind of provocative.

It's too provocative. And that doesn't suit me at all. That's not the kind of person I am. So it looked like I was trying to, I was deliberately trying to wind people up or something by using these words. So, so those are kind of gone, you know, I don't want to get off on this tangent,

but I just want to say in regard to that, um, I just read it. There was this news story the other day about somebody, somebody had said something antisemitic. I don't remember what the details were. And in the news story, they wouldn't print what the details were and in the news story they wouldn't print

what the person had said and it infuriated me like i'm jewish like well who are you exactly you're protecting like i don't know did he call him a kike did he call him a dumb jew he said take your take your goddamn he-bass like i didn't i want was it a joke? Like they just, the reporter essentially decides that it's an antisemitic remark. And I, as the Jewish person, I'm not, I'm some, they think I need to be protected from this. Like, like, like if you were with the N word thing, like, okay, people shouldn't be using it. But if somebody said like, let's say a politician said a politician said a black,

a racist comment about blacks. As a black person, I'm going to want to know what exactly did he say? Because that matters to me, you know? I think we know what he said. No, but that's the thing. Well, you might think with the black thing, because obviously the N-word,

but with a Jewish anti-Semitic comment, I don't know what it was. But I'm just insulted that they're treating adults like children i i can't read the word that they said really that's quite a new thing as well that's like relatively if you look if you look back you know through magazines and newspapers it was being used until relatively recently whatever word it was um the word would be printed you know but it's kind of odd that it's kind of changed there are at least five channels on basic cable

where all you can see are Holocaust films, okay? Like every history and you just can't scroll through the channels without seeing some old clip of the Jews in a mass grave or the Jews emaciated or the Nazis. This is all okay, but in the daily paper we shall not be able to read an

anti-Semitic remark or word. But but usually but that's not the typical case usually they would just they would put the word and they would put like asterisks yeah but i'm saying it's getting worse and worse this is a new thing i never saw this before all of a sudden now it's not just the n-word it's all offensive words now are being they won't they won't print them. Anyway, it's crazy. But the N-word, they will say the N-word so that you know exactly. I mean, it's not like the information is being hidden.

They'll say he said. As recently as like 10 months ago, the New York Times actually would write out the N-word if it was newsworthy. I guess now that's stopped altogether. But I mean, I did some research on this. There were many, many references. I mean, it's a horrible word. So is a video of somebody jumping out of a building to his death.

So is a video of George Floyd. Do they blur out the George Floyd video to protect us from seeing the horrible truth of the news? No, they don't. They show it to us because it's the news no they don't we we we we they show it to us because it's the news but a word is is if it's in the news is more that's that's more necessary to protect us from than a seeing george floyd dying under the policeman's neck i i don't think it holds up to scrutiny but that's the world we live in so that's it i mean i think i think the george floyd situation is imperative that you see it because otherwise you won't believe it.

Yeah. No, no. I kind of understand why it's necessary to show that. John, this is my thing. You tell me if you're wrong. And I've spoken to a lot. I think I've spoken to you about this, but I've spoken to tons of people of all races and colors. We're all adults.

And I think that it's quite overblown that adults think they can't read a troubling word if it's just a reportage of something that happened in the real world. A quote, we hear it in movies, we hear it in Trenton Tarantino, we hear it in movies, we hear it in Trenton Tarantino, we hear it in jokes, we hear it in music. And if there was ever a time it's most appropriate to hear it, it would be in order to acquaint ourselves with troubling news in the real world so that we can react to it and whatever it is. That's just my opinion, you know, but it's just interesting to me

how it quickly morphed from just that one word, which has a very, very unique place in American history. And there's nothing like it and it can't be compared to any other slur. And say, okay, we're gonna make an exception. We're just gonna say, it says something about our, it says something about who we want to be by recognizing this one word okay, we're gonna make an exception. We're just gonna say, it says something about our, it says something about who we wanna be by recognizing this one word as something we're not gonna say. It's not really, maybe it's not really that we can't hear it.

It's that it's showing, it's a statement of who we are culturally by having this cultural norm. You know, okay, I can make that argument. But then the way it quickly just dribbles down to anything that might offend somebody is they're not treating us like adults anymore. That's what I think.

In my book, the reason why I kind of kept some of those words in, there was lots of different words, and kind of one's more applicable to the UK than America. The reason I kept them in when I had that interview in that, then we really removed because it wasn't of any use to Americans. Because if I took one word out I couldn't decide which word I would take out and then I'd have to be removing like lots of different words because there were all these different racially offensive words that said it wouldn't make sense in the US,

you wouldn't know these words. But it's but you would have to remove all of these words and then it just becomes a bit you know once you start going down that slope it's kind of difficult David Baddiel, the British comedian he just wrote a book about this, you know Jews Don't Count that book, I don't know if you've heard about it

I agree with it but I didn't read it yeah but he's talking about he wants it to be the Y word. And he wants that word not to be used anymore. What Y word? Y-I-D. Yid?

Yeah. So people say that at a British, there's a British football team, Spurs, and there's lots of Jewish supporters. So they kind of, you know, reappropriated that word and they called themselves that. And so he's kind of like saying, we shouldn't use that word anymore, even if you're using it as like, you know, taking back control of it.

Listen, the silly conceit of all this is to think that by getting some, a racist or a bigot not to use a word, that you've changed anything at all. You haven't changed anything. He's just every bit as racist, as bigoted as he ever was. He will find a new word. They will find a new way or a new whatever it is

to say what it is that they want to say. It's just, to me, it's just silly. As a matter of fact, I actually like when people say it because I like to not like, no, I think it's just silly as a matter of fact i actually like when people say it because i like to know like no i i think it's like i i think it's good to be able to catch people saying that it tells you who who the people are you know but it's like it makes it does it not make it a hostile atmosphere if people are using these words and stuff you know like if you're in the shop and someone uses it casually it's like you don't want to hear that you don't want to be around that

absolutely creates a hostile atmosphere. And there was a write-up about that I, an interview that I did for the Rolling Stone about this guy who had said the N-word, and I almost completely knocked his head off. By the grace of God, Gary Veeder was standing next to me. So when I went to punch him, I bumped into Veeder. What was the context? He, I swear to God, so the show's over with,

and he said, hey, Trump won the presidency. So we can say nigger now. Oh, well then he deserves you to be angry for that. Right, but I'm just saying, once that comes out of your mouth and then something happens, you know what I'm saying? And then I would have been the bad guy. Thank God Beater was standing there because I really went to,

not even thinking about it, just react, you know what I mean? And I bumped into Beater before I knocked this dude all his teeth out. That's a horrible use of the word, yeah. And it saved me. I say white dudes, man, y'all should pat yourselves on the back. Straight up. You showed the world you could do anything. You got a psycho dude like this in the office.

67% are voting white males. And I know the white dudes sitting here like, no, it wasn't me. Yeah, it was some of y'all asses too. 67%. That's impressive, man. Made it to the White House on his third baby mama. Yes. That is impressive, white dudes.

You could make it to the White House on your third baby momma. Can you imagine a black dude running for president on our third baby momma? Right? And if you in here and you Latino, we not even gonna discuss that. Third baby momma that barely speaks English. Yeah, I said it. She barely speaks English. I'm not the only one that be staring at the TV,

squinting every time Melania open her mouth. Y'all know good and goddamn well if she was black or Latino there'd be subtitles under everything that came out of her mouth. No way they would let her. And shortly thereafter after the article come out I do this interview with this awesome like 14 year old who interviewed me down the street and she said my mom says as a you know a young black woman i should not use that word and you know white people are like hey we hear it in rap songs which is the the most vile thing you can say to a black person and i said why is that why is that a vile thing? Because it's just, you know,

the way that I explained it to the little girl is I said, since the beginning of time, and I'm not exaggerating here, since the beginning of time, there has always been what is known as intrapersonal communication, meaning I'm not going to say to you, hey, no, I saw you scream at your kid, so why can't I scream at your kid? I saw you, you know, you called your wife a bitch, why can't I call your wife a bitch? There's always communication that goes on within families. My basketball coach used to throw basketballs at my head when I wasn't looking. If I walk down the street and someone else throws a basketball at my head, guess what? You about to get knocked the fuck out. So there's always been communication within groups of people that is tolerated. I don't think I made my question clear. So yeah, I agree with

that. And I think white people- Don't tell me that I can't use the N-word because I'm white. No, no. No, of course not. I've always thought that's a ridiculous argument too, that although some people actually really don't seem to get it, that when a word, exactly as you put it, when two black people use the word, it becomes an affectionate term in a way. Like, you know, we're, but that's not what I thought I heard you explaining. So maybe I got it wrong. But what I'm thinking is that kids who grow up hearing a word in a rap song, it's not realistic to think that they're going to have the life wisdom to understand that argument that you just made.

Oh, they fucking know that. No, you cannot explain to a 12-year-old in a way that he's going to understand. Yo, let me tell you how I feel. Hear me out. You cannot explain to a 12-year-old who hears the radio every day, you can tell him don't say that word,

but you're not going to be able to explain to him in a way that he actually understands until he's lived life let me tell you how i know let me tell you how i know what you're saying it's nonsensical if that 12 year old is in a gym with a bunch of other little black boy 12 year olds somehow that little white boy will know not to say that yes that he'll know that to say it to keep his, like I said, to not get punished. But he won't understand, John, don't,

he won't, you can, this is not particular to this point. This is particular to many points about 12-year-olds. He will not understand the moral gravity of what he's done

until he's much older, has lived, has read, has understood. Listen, you react to that word because of your knowledge of the African-American experience in this country, your bitter experience as an African-American person growing up in this country, and all of it. It's all in a bundle of emotion to you that you can call up reflexively. A 12-year-old knows nothing more than, I better not say this word because I'll get punished or they might punch me. In the same way kids learn not to call somebody fat but they don't really understand pain of causing pain another person until as

they get older that's why kids are so cruel why are kids so cruel because they don't understand cruelty at that age right and when it's cruelty that regard when it's a cruelty that also requires a knowledge of history and a knowledge it's not that is not to me that's not that's not 12 year olds i know i i couldn't have understood it now right but no you're missing the point what i'm saying is i don't i don't i don't need that 12 year old to become an adult nor as an adult do i ever need you to understand the pain because you never will as a white person. What I need you to do is be respectful of the fact that I have asked you not to call me that, period. You're never going to get the pain, whether you're 12 or 112.

I don't think that's realistic. Don't do it. Okay, well, let me tell you this. When I see a bunch of 12-year-old black kids on the basketball court going ching-chong, ching-chong, ching-chong to some Asian person who walked by, which I've seen more than once in my life, I say, oh, these kids, you know? But I don't react to it as if I saw some black businessman doing it.

It's just not the same thing. I understand it's a bunch of punk-ass kids who don't know any better. Somebody's told them they're not supposed to say this. They certainly know they're not supposed to say it, but they don't know the way a grown Black attorney would understand not to say it. That's all I'm saying. It's 12 years old. Yeah, I'm saying wrong is wrong, and I'm saying no matter what age they are, they're never going to understand the pain, so just don't do it because someone asked you not to do that. Yeah, well, just don't do it. But kids do, you know, kids do stuff they're not supposed to do. And they do it. And they especially do stuff that's

forbidden to them. That's the way kids are. And we need to keep our humanity about judging our children. My goodness. I think this is not, this is not any kind of defensive kids being racist. I'm just saying, you know, they're kids. They're going to do that because we, because we see kids like this woman, this black woman got, who was, got canceled for her. She was already a little older, but a seven, she was 16 or 17 when she tweeted something about Asians, the editor of Teen Vogue, right? She got fired for a tweet that she made as a teenager. This black woman, she, I mean, she understands now.

She obviously didn't quite understand when she was a teenager. And I don't think many people are happy that she got fired. I think most people have said, why are they firing her for a teenage tweet? She was a teenager. I had somebody DM me 50 times the other day talking about, would you please... I see Amy Schumer follows you.

Would you please tell Amy Schumer that some of the things that she said is that the other... I said to this person, because normally I don't respond, I responded back this week. I said, hey, man, Amy posted several times this week about Stop Asian Hate. I know Amy personally.

Amy doesn't believe in that. You know what I mean? If you look at her stories right now, you'll see that she's posted several times about Stop Asian Hate. And this person responds, yeah, but you don't understand. You got to let her know that what she,

and I said, are you looking for someone to change or are you looking for revenge? Revenge. Thank you. And there's a difference. There's a difference. If someone is now on your side, what are you bitching about? Yeah.

You're looking for some payback. That's different from someone who has said, wow, you know what? That shit I said was fucked up. This shit ain't right. Done. We're done here. I'm not going to keep on pressing. You're looking for revenge. And now we're done here i'm not gonna keep on pressing you're looking for revenge and now we're done talking yeah yeah i agree with you about that now we're fucking done

talking and i told that person i said and if you fucking send me enough oh and then they started with a i'm sorry but you got to understand i'm about to block you okay i don't want you to block me so you know i'll leave it at that. Good, because now you're looking for something that you're not going to get here. I told you to go look. There's Stop Asian Hate all over our page. We're done talking here. Yeah, I mean, I probably- For the record, Amy Schumer never hated Asians.

I mean, it's- Never, never, never. I'm going to go out on a limb here. One of the least racist human beings I know. What are you talking about? I do think that there's something about teaching children empathy, you know, that they don't need to understand all of the reasons why something is unkind. Like, I think...

Teaching a child empathy is kind of like teaching me uh tackle football i don't i don't agree with you i i don't i don't i don't i don't i don't agree with you guys really making an argument that we can judge 12 years old as adults are we really are we really saying now judge people who are 12 years old as adults i I said that I think that you can teach children empathy. I think that you can- But to understand that it's complex for a 12 year old to hear a forbidden term in pop music and explain to them that, you know,

it may take them a little bit to get it, to really get it. They can do it. They can manage the behavior because they've been told to do it. But to really internalize get it they can do it they can they can manage the behavior because they've been told to do it but to really internalize these arguments like john to understand why it's okay for black people to use it with each other what the history of it is the pain that it causes that that this particular word isn't just like all the there's a there's 20 different words

i tell my kids they can't use am i to and-word is one of them. Do I really think that they understand that the N-word is in a category of its own? I will say this. Don't call little girls fat and don't make fun of the kid that has a stutter and don't use the N-word. And they're like, yes, daddy, yes, daddy, yes. And they probably will. But if you really think that at nine years old, my daughter really understands the hierarchy, the difference, the pain of one word. No, I'm telling you she doesn't. I will say this, Noam, is that when I was a kid, thinking back, I really think I did get it now that I think of it.

Good, you're precocious. I really do. I said fuck and I said shit and i probably said you know maybe a racial slur here i did not say the n word right but did you i think i know much so much so that what you were gravity and my parents never told me not to say it's never so much so that if you were with your friends in a room playing 45s and the n word was anything you wouldn't sing along with the song that level of understanding that's what i'm saying but no i think this is the point i didn't have those songs in those days we had i heard sunshine

on a cloudy day i'm old yeah but also also this whole idea that you need to understand and internalize no one's asking you to do that. I'm asking you to fucking be respectful. But kids are not respectful. I don't ever expect you to fully understand. You act like at some point in time you're going to grow up and be an adult and be like, oh, now I know what it's like to be a black man. You're never going to get it.

So be respectful in the meantime. I think I understood it when I was a kid about as well as I understand it. I think I really got it. I think I understood it when I was a kid about as well as I understand and I think I really got it. I think I got it. I maybe I'm just exceptional. I remember seeing an interview with Donna Summer. I don't think so. Let me internalize it. Let's stop talking about the n-word because it offends people that a white person talks about. Let me tell you this, the Holocaust. I've been raised on a diet of a Holocaust since I could feed myself, right?

I always understood what the Holocaust was. But at some point, I'd say in my 20s, I think I grappled with it in a different way the enormity of it what it says about human nature

there's just levels upon levels of these things that you appreciate as you get older if you want to say that at 10 years old, my daughter could understand the enormity of the Holocaust at 10 years old, I would have to say, no, she can't.

That's all I say. And I think that we're likening, what we're likening by analogy is a deep, philosophical historical life under wisdom of life understanding of certain concepts and these concepts grow and your understanding grows as you get older and unfortunately for some people they never seem to get it quite honestly even some people some people who would not consider themselves racist still can't manage to understand why these jokes are not funny you you know,

but that's a whole nother. In a way as a kid, in a way as a kid, I was more outraged by racism and slavery and the Holocaust than I am now, because now I understand nuance. I understand how, how imperfect adults are and how, how horrific the world can be.

And, and, and when you're a kid, everything makes sense. Why would you cheat on your wife? imperfect adults are and how horrific the world can be. And when you're a kid, everything makes sense. Why would you cheat on your wife, for example, as a kid? I couldn't imagine. Why would a man cheat on his wife? It doesn't make any sense. Now you get older. That's something John understood at nine years old.

So when I first heard George Washington owned slaves, I couldn't believe it. I was like, wait a minute. I thought he was the greatest guy ever. Now as an adult, I understand. Well, if you grew up in that time, maybe, and you internalized, you know, certain things, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe I would, maybe I would have done it too. I can't, I cannot say that I would not have owned slaves if I had grown up at that time in that place.

Even that's the place that, thing, because there was a tweet, I think, by Nicole Hannah Jones, where she talked about the White House being made by, you know, slave labor, slave penal labor. Those are the ghosts of slavery coming back to turn your lights off, no? That was weird. And I have to tell you, it struck me because I had heard a million times that the White House was made by slaves. And for some reason, when she tweeted that, it hit me, maybe the way she worded it, or maybe the context of the Black Lives Matter moment we were in, it did hit me emotionally in a way it never had before. I remember that. It's like, you know, yeah, holy shit, that was a fucking, that was slave labor, you know? When I was nine, it could have never hit me that way. Anyway,

we're beating a dead horse here. I actually think we all agree more than we disagree on this. Right. But you know what else, though, Noam? Like, when someone says something, you know, some fucked up remark about the Holocaust, right, my temperature doesn't go up. So I don't know what that feels like. Or I don't know what it feels like to hide my sexual identity as someone from

the LGBTQ community you know what I mean but and I never will but that doesn't mean that I can't be respectful yeah well how about this I don't have to be able to internalize what they're feeling and say you know what if y'all say don't use the f-word talking about about gay men I'm done with it we're done here and I've never said it since you say that I'm done I have to be on the stage in 50 minutes can we talk about the reopening of the Comedy Cellar

that is this weekend starting this Friday after over a year what time is the first show thanks for telling last word Diane After over a year. What time is the first show? Thanks for telling last year, Diane. You and your big mouth. I don't know.

The first show is at 5 o'clock, I think. Can I just tell you that I got a little choked up when the schedule came out and I was on that 5 o'clock show? I really did. I got a little teary-eyed thinking I'll be the first one to go back on stage in that show. But I really, I truly got choked up when

the avails came through and I was like, I get to walk back on first. And I'm happy it was you when Ray Allen couldn't do it. You were my next choice. Andrew, I really think it might be worth delaying publication of your book to include this return to the comic. This might be a nice end point for your book. It's a second point for your book. That they could sell it as a second edition. It's the second edition of the book.

Yeah, it's just the second edition. Can we end with one? Go ahead Andrew, you want answers? No, I was going to say, what you were just talking about before, we've moved past it, but what you were just talking about before is, the end point of the book is Esty talking about the Holocaust, you know, and she does talk about if you're not emotionally connected to it, you can't, if you're not emotionally, she says in the book, if you're not emotionally connected to it, you can't understand it. So my point of view on this is always be

kind of what John was just saying, which is, you know, if you hurt someone's feelings, if you're not a dick, if you hurt someone's feelings, then you try and avoid that, don't you? You know, so you just kind of pull back. And if you've seen that you've hurt someone's feelings, you don't use those words, you don't you know so you just kind of pull back and if you've seen that you've heard someone's feelings you don't use those words you don't say these things and so let's not let's not lose sight of what is actually the main point here which is not the particulars of this particular debate we're having which is very i think a very healthy conversation to have because hopefully there's at least a sentence or two of what john has said, which I hadn't thought of and I have to integrate and consider, you know, and hopefully there's something that I might've said that John said,

you know, you know, he might have a point there, but anyway, the, the, but, but what the comedy seller stands for is our, our right to have these conversations. It is not the particulars of what we're saying. It is the very conversation itself, conversations because it's it is not the particulars of what we're saying no longer allowed it is the very conversation itself which can get us in trouble you shall not speak to a black man about any subject that you know you shall not tell a jew and um this is just i think we all agree this is unacceptable this is the enemy and this is the end of comedy this is just, I think we all agree, this is unacceptable. This is the enemy. And this is the end of comedy.

This is the end of comedy. I think to say it's the end of comedy is a bit exaggerated. Why? Well, it's the end of comedy as, maybe we go back to, you know, mother-in-law jokes, but it's the end of a

Louis C.K. Chris Rock type of comedy. That's, you know. Maybe. Maybe. But there have always been things that comedians would say at their peril. And those things have changed.

What did their peril mean? What did peril mean 20 years ago? Peril means the audience won't tolerate. Peril means that the audience What did peril mean? What did peril mean 20 years ago? So people would get pissed? Peril means the audience won't tolerate. Peril means that the audience won't tolerate. And of course, there's always been things. I mean, 20 years ago, I did a joke where I used the N-word.

And we've talked about this. I very quickly learned not to do it again. What do you mean, Dan? You told me you understood it at nine. Now you didn't know when you were a comedian? I understood not to use it in anger at nine. We were never talking about using it in anger. But all right, go ahead.

I used it in my social commentary at 24. And I did it once, and I said, okay, this didn't work out so good. Some people still did. I mean, okay, this didn't work out so good. I mean, you know, even beyond that, I mean, people were still doing it, but, but there's always been red lines that the audience won't tolerate.

Carlin used the word right up to the end. And, and, and, and again, am I supposed to sit here and be like, oh, we got to cancel Dan or say, hey, welcome to sit here and be like, oh, we got to cancel Dan or say, hey, welcome to the right side of the conversation. Should I be sitting around looking for revenge on Dan knowing that Dan's not in any way like that? Do you know what I mean? Like, that's why when the guy kept going on and on,

I'm like, no, you're looking for revenge. You know, that's all true. And John, it's even more complicated. I hate know that's that's and john it's even it's even more complicated i hate that we i hate we keep talking about this but it's quite interesting so even recently that video came up where louis ck used the word with a hard r at the end i think while chris rock was sitting there and chris rock laughed and said yes i don't care if he says that remember that so so that's that's so there's another phenomenon here where a person has to say wait a second why do i have to take this guy's opinion like why is why why don't

why can't i take this other credible black guy chris rock's opinion you know like but but you know what but but again so that so that will lead to confusion in people, you know? No, there's no confusion. Let me say this. I bet you this much. I bet you Louis C.K.S. is smart enough not to say that out in the street. Oh, of course. He said it because he was sitting there to say something. He wouldn't say that in a bodega with some black people.

Of course not. He shouldn't. But that was never an okay use. But he would say it. So no one would be confused. No, of course not. He shouldn't. But that was never an okay use. But he would say it. So no one would be confused. But now he can't. No one would be confused about what he's doing. Now he can't use his old bits that used it.

And that's fine. I don't care. But I'm saying, you know, but in a conversation. There's no confusion there. He's doing it. He's doing it where he's sitting next to Chris Rock, who's giggling, in a safe space. Louis C.K.S. wouldn't try that out on the street. He was on TV.

He wouldn't try that out on the street. Of course not on the street. But he knows the difference. He knows what he's doing is fucked up. The rule change has not been that you can now not say it on the street. You've never been able to say it out on the street. It used to be that you could discuss it.

You could use it when you could discuss it. You could use it when you were discussing. He wasn't discussing it. He said it for shock value, didn't he? Of course. It was a long time ago, and I'm sure if he did the same TV show now, he probably wouldn't say it.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a thing, you change, don't we? Yeah. We knew what he was doing. Yeah. So now what's happening with the opening then? Is it, it's opening on Friday, 33% capacity or something like that? Am I going to get in trouble for having this devil's advocate conversation now?

No. You've not said anything wrong. No, that's ancient history. I would like to say... I want to talk about the reopening, and I'm sure listeners want to know about the reopening, so enough about what we were talking about.

Let's talk about the reopening. We're reopening on Friday, we have four stages, doing three shows in each stage. We have to be finished by 11, so the show... Oh, really? Why? Why do you have to be finished by 11, so the show... Oh, really? Why?

Why do you have to finish by 11? That's the time that the governor has to meet his girlfriends or something. No, I'm just kidding. I couldn't come up with anything. That's the current view. Really? Apparently, after 11, the COVID viruses just get a little antsy. Your number of cases is going up.

Your cases are going up over there. Are you worried about it? COVID, 11 o'clock, time to do some damage. That's what time COVID starts hunting. Maybe because people are getting sick. I am happy to say I am hosting the 5 o'clock. So I hope to see, I'm sure it's already sold out, but I'm trying to come down there anyway.

I am honored to be hosting that. I'm honored to have you, John. I don't believe that. No, Dan, we're not, the cases are going up, but I don't think they're going up all that significantly. They're certainly not going up in high-risk groups. I don't think we're going to see any spike in deaths, I don't think. And then also, people are getting vaccinated quite quickly.

So I don't think that's that big a story, actually. I get my second shot on the sixth. I have been trying to get this sentence out for a fucking hour. Number one, the comment about my only responsibility is to share screens is bullshit. Totally. Perry L. Totally.

Thank you, John. Number one, number two, I couldn't have in my wildest dreams put together a better show right before the opening of The Cellar. I've been trying to get Jon Laster on this show for I swear to God a year.

I'm sorry. I am so sorry. No, it's perfect. It's amazing. And the third thing is that I owe Andrew an apology and he owes me an apology too because you're really the reason why I um know Noam so well oh yeah from the piece that you did for Tablet yeah yeah I interviewed Noam

um when I used to write a column for Tablet magazine and I would generally interview people for like an hour and never see them again yeah It just so happened that your piece in the New Yorker was coming out in the same time and we have to rehash that whole thing, but there was a little bit of miscommunication. So I'd like to apologize to you for that. No, no, no. Noah made me come back and meet him like three more times. And I got sucked into like

these four hour long meetings with him. So it's your fault. He never wanted to have four hour long meetings with me. That's strange. I don't know that he really wants to have four hour long meetings with me either. Nobody can get out of a meeting with you in less than four hours. Andrew is succinct. All right, I guess.

It was nice to meet you Periel I hope that this conversation doesn't blow up I think these conversations every week so I would advise because every week to think beforehand whether you wish to say these things

I just think these are interesting things to talk about I'm not defiant about the rules as they stand. Cancel culture is real. I believe it exists and I believe it's bad, but I don't believe it's so horrific that anything you say, that anything you have said will result in your cancellation. Yeah. Are we supposed to agree? You know what, as black men, we have a pretty good cancel radar. Mine didn't go off. As black men, when we hear somebody about to get canceled, you tell them to do this.

As long as I'm in frame, everybody's safe. All right. I have to do my show. Go, Dan. Nobody's keeping you. Go. Well, I would prefer not to go before the show is over but I will

we have a few things you want to say when you leave go ahead all right anyway all right anything else?

Well, tell us where we can find you guys. John, you have a new app coming out. I do. John Black, what is it? Yeah, it's an app to support Black businesses. It will be out at the end of May. Yeah, my legal team is all over it right now. Should be starting to be coded next week,

but the response to it has been off the charts. It's insane. Are you still working with any of the people that I know you were working with, or that didn't work out? You know what, it's not final yet, because there's gonna be more and more money to be raised but i i think that i got a lot better offers and i was shocked um because everyone told me that it was going to take me a year and a half to raise the money the first four meetings i had

the first four people were like before i finished the meeting were like i'm in that's fantastic yeah so all that money raised my wife wants a free sweatshirt. I want a sweatshirt. Oh, yo, absolutely. What color? I like the one you're wearing, the black and white one. Okay, because I'm about to put in the order. So what size? Large. Got it.

They're pretty big. Just warning you. You don't need a large. I don't think so either. I like it roomy. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right, what else?

So, Andrew Hankinson's book. You didn't tell us where the title came from. Applaud, don't applaud, either laugh or don't. Where did the title come from? That's something Colin Quinn used to say. I think Jay Aikerson thought that I got that from him, but it wasn't. It was something that Colin Quinn used to say at the beginning of Tough Crowd. It's in the book. I've got lots of interviews was something that Colin Quinn used to say at the beginning of Tough Crowd. It's in the book.

I've got lots of interviews in there with Colin Quinn and he talks about a lot of this stuff and where the kind of, you know, some of the ethos for his TV show came from. Brilliant mind. Brilliant comedy mind. Yeah. A big fan of Colin.

He says you. Don't. I'm staying away from that. yid that's like you're like outing people now no i'm i'm kidding because yid yeah you know yiddish in your american ear yiddish is so lightweight like yiddish yiddish is not that you know what is it money money doesn't know what it means yiddish is like it's short for, it's like a Jewish derogatory term, like Yiddish.

Short for Yiddish. It's supposed to be like a derogatory term. Like Heber, Yid. Are they used within the Jewish community? I've never heard that before. Okay. We usually say Jap or. Oh.

Yeah, this is my wife. She's of color. She's of color, so she can say whatever she wants. Oh, whatever. She once said this is my wife. She's of color. She's of color. So she gets she gets whatever she wants. She said to my father, she says, Manny, I got you know, I went to buy this jacket. How much? Well, I drew them down. And my father said, what? Yeah, I drew them down, Manny. And my father says, drew them down. She had no she had no idea from where she grew up in Brooklyn that Jewed him down was even a derogatory term about Jews. No, because that's what we say all the time.

Yeah. We still say that. She thought that that's what you said. No, no, no. Yeah. I can't say that. You know, like, we didn't know. Like, when the term gypped, I got gypped. I never knew until very recently that comes from gypsy.

Oh, wow. The gypsy is supposed to cheat you. Yeah. I got gypped. So it's totally possible, jute him down. You just don't place it, right? You don't make the association. Well, jute him down is a little bit more direct than Jim.

Yeah, but you see, Perry. I didn't even think I was saying something bad. This comes back to what you don't understand is how far from your perception of the world another person can be through a totally, drastically different life experience this is this is you know they teach us in high school about you know ethnocentrism and you know cultural clash and when american businessmen went to see japanese businessmen they would insult each other but this goes on even within communities in the same country like you say how could she not know that jew them down what but they didn't did you have to you just

have to accept it as a fact she didn't know she'd known she wouldn't have said it right so she was certainly wouldn't have said it to my father so so you just got to take it on his face now you know we still say that all right sweetheart i'm trying to save you here it doesn't mean anything that's news like i don't know it does you can't say why can't i say that because your children are jewish oh god john help me all right anyway so the first show on Friday. Five o'clock. We say a lot of inappropriate things in my family.

Not with ill intent. Intent doesn't matter anymore. Now they say chew them down. I chewed them down, you know? That sounds so stupid. The other way is way better. All right. Anyway, you can't say chew them down.

All right. Anything else? What did we learn today? You can't say chew them down. All right what did we learn today you can't say Joanne Down alright anything else that's it right that's it the seller is opening up on Friday April 2nd

where can people go to make reservations comedyseller.com great I know that people are shocked let them go get a pencil comedyseller.com. Great. I know that people are shocked. Wait, let them go get a pencil. ComedySeller.com. All right. All right, are we done?

Hey, Andy, I can't wait to see the book. I didn't even know that I was in there. I sent you an email, so I don't know if... Have a check of the emails and I'll get it to you. Okay, cool. All right. It's nice to see John and Andrew. When are you coming to the States, Andrew? I don't know. Not for a long time.

We can't leave the country at the moment. We're not allowed, but, yeah. Wow. At some point. John, are we gonna see you Friday? Yes! I can't wait to see you. Yeah, me too. You're coming on Friday? Yes! Okay.

Okay. Bye, good night, everybody. Nice to see you all. Bye-bye.