The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The Controversial Sinai Plan - Is it Expulsion or Expansion: Israeli Professor Joel Roskin
Episode Date: January 9, 2024Israeli Professor Joel Roskin caused an international stir with his editorial - "Why Moving to the Sinai Peninsula is the Solution for Gaza's Palestinians". Was he misinterpreted? He explains his inte...ntions.
Transcript
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Sure. Okay. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to Live from the Table. I'm doing kind of a quick hit interview this afternoon with Joel Roskin, who is a geologist and geographer and a faculty member of the Department of Geography and Environment at Bar-Ilan University. wrote this article which is getting all sorts of um viral coverage on twitter why moving to
the sinai peninsula is the solution for gaza's palestinians and um you know this is being
retweeted all over uh the world now as uh evidence that israel has um a plan here to expel the Palestinians from Gaza.
And so I figured I would try to get in touch with you directly and get your response to that.
Is that what you're calling for in this article?
By the way, it's in the Jerusalem Post.
Everybody can Google it.
It's in the Jerusalem Post.
So go ahead.
Explain to us what your intention is with the article.
Well, first of all um i wrote the
article i don't represent anybody not the university i mean i'm a staff member we have
with freedom of speech um and i don't represent the government or the military or anything
uh that's one thing also there's no post they changed they changed the title. Sinai is the solution. And they changed something that
caught on a bit more.
What was your
original title?
Sinai is the solution, just to catch
us on, to be short.
Yeah, I mean,
I'm talking
about
a political vision that should be led, I think, by Israel, along with the United States or the Western countries, to look for an out-of-the-box solution for this failed two-state idea that's been going around for 30 years and just bringing waves and waves of terror onto my country. And I mean, what happened on October 7th is,
you know, way beyond anyone's imagination here. So we have to do something different.
We can't just revert to the same thing that hasn't worked for 30 years. And that's kind of
stupid. So what are the options? And I's kind of that's kind of stupid. So what
are the options and I think what I made one important point, and
I say one to clarify it, maybe a different opener that the
metropolitan of Gaza, which is about 30 square kilometers, a
million inhabitants is destroyed. I mean, what you have
there is a tremendous underground complex,
multi-story complex underground
with cement, metal beams,
a tonnage of ammunition, chemicals,
water that the Hamas has plugged into there,
generators, waste from electricity.
Now, then there's been the tunnels that have been exploded. And there's also rumors
about some that have been fed with seawater. Along with that, we have the explosions on the
surface, the Air Force explosions. And then the buildings that have been, like every other
building has been found with ammunition, explosives, tunnels, and so on and so forth.
And these have been either destroyed or partially destroyed.
And the level of construction, I assume, in Gaza is not that high.
I also know that some of the concrete, the high-grade concrete was taken for the tunnels and not for construction.
So in a way, you can't just renovate a damaged building in Gaza.
So we have a huge area which can only be repopulated here and there.
The roads are destroyed.
So the area has to be torn down, evacuated.
The soil has to be re-mechanized and also environmentally assessed before bringing back people to the city of Gaza
or to the metropolis of Gaza City.
So what are you going to do now?
So, okay, a few questions.
So this would be involuntary?
An involuntary movement of people?
No, of course not, no.
I mean, we're talking about a solution.
A solution has to be, I mean,
accepted by at least the majority of the sides.
So if the Palestinian population of Gaza
didn't want to go,
you're not suggesting,
or are you suggesting that they go
without any choice?
No, of course not okay well
i mean right now there's a um 1.8 or so million gazans or a bit less concentrated in the southern
part of the gaza strip south of the of what they call their wadi gaza it's the only uh
wadi that crosses the Gaza Strip.
Many are in rundown conditions.
Many are in tents.
So where are they going to go?
They won't go to Israel.
They either go to, okay, they're going to stay there or find new avenues of life in the world,
which is, I mean, altogether.
I'm relieved.
Or wait.
Or wait. Or fight for like five four
i i know i haven't done anything anything i haven't i'm approaching the years we haven't
done any serious analysis but i mean it'll take years to rebuild this destroyed area and also the
the tremendous amount of rubble that we needed to be evacuated will be very costly and also
environmentally problematic so there's a big challenge here um so i'm relieved
in some way to hear that you don't want to expel the palestinians um but you know you know you
you know you know that that's where the article's being taken i'm surprised that there is an
ascendance in there to make that clear um or in retrospect maybe you wish you had put it in there because it's being used as evidence i write about international involvement of national
pressure on egypt uh funding and so i didn't mention i'll expel you didn't say force them
over the border first more of their line and by the way i've gotten indeed uh polar reactions i
mean i've gotten a lot of positive reactions also also linked id
and also emails and so on and so forth looking at things both ways now now egypt's had you know
their own history with hamas and i'm not an expert on this stuff but i i i i understand that
the muslim brotherhood and hamas egypt views the political movements within the palestinian community as a threat to their
uh regime correct i think there they may be um a relatively unwanted group of people
in egypt um actually it seems like anywhere no other countries and they're inviting them but
they're in canada held out their hand for i don't know how many, but they're unwanted people.
That's the situation
and the facts prove
why it seems
that way. But Egypt
is a very large
country and it's
very undemocratic and it's one of the leaders
of evaluation of human rights.
There's a list
there.
So they have their ways to to deal with uh with people that don't really um fit their agenda well i mean i mean i'm sorry
but the natural question is if egypt is even seems unwilling to even you know with much uh generosity open their border crossing there to help with humanitarian aid if
they're building the wall even higher why in a million years would anybody suspect that they'd
be ready to cede land right that that's one of the reasons why why with the article but the basic
understanding is for sure they don't have any interest to do that right but if they
have if they will gain a lot of benefits they may be willing to i mean we have to as i mentioned
before and open up to new ideas here and new thoughts and new avenues of of action and
egypt is in a difficult demographic state they their growth is steady, but we're talking about over a million people a year that were born there.
Their
economy is not that great.
And I think if
the international
community will invest,
even the same amount of aid that they gave Hamas
for their hospitals
and for their tunnels and for everything,
if that even amount of aid would be given to
Egypt
for a
short to long term basis there may be something to talk about i mean they won't they won't
volunteer themselves to do that that's that's for sure um yeah it sounds it sounds very pie
in the sky to me now now to what extent is the i know know there was some, I have it here, you know, there was an article in Haaretz where, I don't know these names, Galil, Distel, Atbarian, and Eliyahu. These are like ministers, I don't say far, I guess they're described as far-right
ministers. It's not that I'm reluctant to call them far-right. I just don't know enough to say
whether that label is fair. But these are ministers who have been accused of wanting to expel
the Palestinians. Is there, would you say, a serious number of people in Israel in power
who are looking for an excuse to get rid of the Palestinians
from the West Bank and Gaza here?
The West Bank, I haven't heard anything about that.
From Gaza, there's a very warlike attitude right now,
and the goal is to get rid of Hamas.
And the question is, okay, what happens after Hamas?
And the first thought was just to get rid of Hamas.
And now there's many thoughts about what to do.
So I don't think that expelling, there's any close to major majority about that kind of idea or concept
and then again i mean the government here is pretty weak i mean the government will be changed
sooner or later who knows when but that's that's a pretty uh sure thing that will happen we change
reorganized and there's a lot of talk about even you know really not redoing the political system
but getting a lot of new blood into the system younger people people from high tech from
industries from academia and so on and people have come back from the battle also and what do you
think what do you think their their leanings are they all together things kind of end up in the
center just like I assume in the States states, most people are plus minus center.
There's the extremes.
The extremes get the most amount of attention.
What's the center here?
Because again, if the center before
was plus minus a two-state solution
based on more extreme or less extreme
or strict conditions, now most people have lost hope
about this that's for sure now you know that's that's an interesting point that that i find
myself um arguing about a lot which is that in my opinion when there's a lack of interest in a two
state solution in israel it's not because people wouldn't love a two-state
solution. It's because, as you say, they've lost hope or they feel that this would just be the
first step for, you know, to gain a foothold for a further battle against Israel. And they feel
that the two-state solution would just be, would be dangerous as, as, uh, look, look as what
happened after Sharon pulled out of Gaza
but that if
there was a...
In the 90s where buses were blowing up like
balloons in
Jerusalem.
The bus don't know if you get off of it.
That's the Palestinian Authority.
So I want to also clarify
maybe a point and there has
been a trend and i'm associated with
with uh people from both sides of let's say the left right and so on even among a majority of
the right i would say if there would be a genuine two-state solution which means a democratic
palestinian state where there is a right to live for jews and be part of the government and the society
there just like israel has 20 muslims in our society and they fully uh stop educating as
netanyahu's mentioned educate to eradicate jews and israelis and, of course, do not develop a strong military, then people
here would be willing.
But if you tell the people, even before the war, they said, come on, no, that won't happen.
They're not working with Arab states.
Power is the most important thing there.
Okay, democracy is beyond the moon.
So.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that they, I mean, I guess what you're saying is that you would like the people who have settled in the West Bank to be able to stay there in some new Palestinian state.
But why would they want to do that?
I mean, they, it's unrealistic to think they're going to live there as anything but fourth class citizens.
And look, yeah, yeah, I would.
I would support giving just as neither here nor there.
I would support giving the Palestinians one hundred and one percent.
You know, you know, these land swaps and end up with 97, 98%. I'd be very happy to see
Israel give them 101% and do whatever they could do if this could finally be the end of this
terrible conflict, which is ruining so many lives. And by the way, I'm sure you'll agree,
the future is not good for Israel. The demographics, the technology,
the spreading of
drones
and all sorts of...
You have 150,000 guided missiles.
You have the uranium being enriched
around the world.
I mean, this is...
Yeah, the Israel can't make decisions on being
scared.
No, I understand.
It's always been uneasy. let's put it that way.
We're living in a very dangerous community,
a very mean community.
We're all alone here.
And another thing, I'm a geographer,
and that's how I moved toward this article.
And we're fighting on a tiny piece of land.
Even just the Sinai Peninsula,
which is like a chip off the block of Egypt,
is three times the size of the whole area west of the Jordan.
So, like, why can't the Arab states be generous,
if not for the Palestinians, to be to us?
By the way, I get reactions, the mean reactions,
like, why don't you go to Sinai?
I mean, we'd love to go to Sinai.
Sinai is where israel
got the torah our covenant um mount sinai uh israel settled the northeastern sign that's
they didn't mention in the article uh after in 1971 in 1970 in 1982 and they're amazing
agriculture in the in the sandy area they develop san air culture that's where i deal with also my my research um and turn the area into a garden of eden it's a it's a really neat place i mean
people had romantic lives there on the shore in the dunes doing agriculture it's like yeah sure
i'll i'd love to go there they don't want to go there i'll go there isn't it but isn't it desert
i mean isn't it much more difficult to live in the that climate than gaza i'm talking about to
continue the gaza strip right across this artificial border of egypt but it's artificial
geographically it's based on 1906 line that the egyptians forced upon the turks but it's it's on
the coastal coastal areas is a desert fringe it's so so so you would you would desert you would combine the gaza strip with
sinai into one kind of state yeah either yeah either with northern gaza because israel again
may be pretty tough on giving back with northern gaza gets close to our population centers and
that huge tunnel we found also is like really really scary with the potential and against it's destroyed but yeah from
wadi gaza just yeah move on make the strip just move on and look at the map you'll see there's
now delta it's green the gaza trip is green and there's a thin line of green of agriculture
between the gaza strip and and and then al delta which actually once the eastern isle
northeastern isle delta was actually northwestern sinai all right so yeah so I maybe I didn't read
the article carefully if I didn't realize that this was would be like a
Federation I thought this would be a replacement for no for Gaza okay all
right well then your article your article is being misunderstood to some
extent so I hope that this that this helps well thank you thanks for inviting
me by the way.
It's my pleasure.
It's one of the fantastic things about the modern world
is that somebody like me can see there's something going on,
like a question, a debate,
and I can reach out to somebody and ask them questions about it
and actually get sometimes viral coverage
and kind of put something to rest, or at least illuminates
it to some degree.
So that's really it.
Well, just one or two more things, just while I have you.
Is it correct to say that Gaza is the only parcel of these lands in question that has
no spiritual connection to Judaismaism is that correct
like the sinai as you said is where the torah came the west bank is also the land of the gaza
sinai is i mean uh gaza is just a a strip of land correct okay so you know further what they call
the west bank i mean the west bank is actually all from the jordan to to the sea and that's all of
israel in a way but uh yeah, that's Israel's cradle of civilization
is around Jerusalem, Judea, and Samaria.
And the Gaza Strip, actually,
you can kind of divide it into two.
Again, this Wadi Gaza,
which in Hebrew is called Nachal HaBasor,
is actually, in a way, a natural border.
And the minimal biblical Israel,
west of the Jordan,
either ended at Wadi Gaza,
but there's also an opinion
which is Wadi al-Aresh
in northwest Sinai,
or the Nile.
So for sure,
there's total agreement
that from Wadi Gaza,
the city of Gaza,
that is part of the ancient land of Israel but south of wadi gaza
that's an under question that's for sure not and and again also the the basur is
mentioned also King David reached there and the Maccabees reached there also in
that area so so as a really your religious person I see you it's where
siri kippur as a person, does this all matter to you
in terms of how you'd like to see it come out?
Is the spiritual
or religious connection to the land
part of how you formulate
the policy that you'd like to see,
or is this just a simultaneous
reality?
If a rich person has
a different amount of
influence, also people without kippot have religious beliefs and understandings.
And I mean, this terrible war really has hit our history.
It's put that way beyond religion.
And actually religious people are having difficulties.
I think because we're still amidst the difficulties of the war. We haven't really solved out what it means
religiously yet. Nobody has really proposed ideas because we're more or less fighting for
survival right now. But if you're asking more about the land, I mean, yeah, of course,
it would be great to be on a biblical land. But I then again that's not that's not the highest priority
it's not even a medium priority if we can do it that'd be good but uh if not there's other
priorities here we have to take into consideration and of course i mean uh to spare lives on both
sides yeah i mean i to be very honest i guess this will wind up as a, as you know, I come from Israeli parents and I, I, I understand very well. I think the mentality of people like my father,
who was not religious, but his father was religious and they have connections.
And, um, but he was, you know, uh, vehemently, uh, Zionist and concerned about Israel. And I know how these people feel for how the very religious people feel.
I read these what I consider to be horrible stories about what settlers do on the West Bank and in terms of how they seem to be abusing the Palestinians.
And I only know what I read and how the government seems to, in some way, turn a blind eye to it,
respond to it when they really have no choice.
And this horrifies me
while at the same time I realize
I don't really know what's going on
because the press can be unreliable.
But I get the feeling
that to some extent this is true
and I don't know how to gauge that.
I don't know how to defend it
or to comment on it
when I debate Israel because I don't have a feel for it. I don't know how to defend it or to comment on it when i debate israel because i don't
have a feel for it i don't have a feel for those that that way of looking at the world yeah i mean
but if you're asking i understand if you can comment on it in any way that you want and then
we'll yeah um well first of all let's get back to the gaza strip okay there's one important point
here is that i mean uh in 2005
israel fully disengaged also militarily and also civilians and uproot all the settlements that were
there and and there is a strong feeling among a lot of people you know we uproot our settlements
to finally you know reach reach some kind of uh peaceful solution they have their land we have
their land they get international support land, they're getting international
support. And it's like, okay, you know, if we gave up now,
that's a chance to just grab it back. That's, that's, that's a
natural instinct that which is going on. And a lot of people
have also have a bit of that also. But that's not, that's
not, that's not a major here. That's, that's, that's a minor.
Now, to your other question, mean there there are our extremist
right wings it's there are a minority and a far minority but of course they attract a lot of
attention uh by the press also by the israeli press and it's mainly uh deep privilege youth that kind of left their homes. And
they're just kind of violent themselves. And they have they
grew up suffering a lot of violence from Palestinians,
always being sacked with rocks, from memories being killed. And
as a teenager, they said, it was just a hell of it. And they just
take off and they take a hilltop and they and they, you know,
they feel that
you know this is um this is the biblical land we're being harassed so we're going to play the
same game we're going to harass back okay and we're not going to live by israel at all so as
some people say i mean it's up to the police to take care of them that's the whole story
okay if they're they're they're violating the law they should be caught and and uh do the police on do the police underreact to it i think sometimes they overreact actually
and sometimes they over and underreact also it just depends where because a lot of times they
live they're in isolated areas where the police don't police like to work in areas that they recognize so for some kind of unknown area they okay
whatever yeah i mean i i mean it's obviously hamas has not said a word about complaining
about the settlements the settlements are not the issue in in hamas but the the world conflates the
two issues and this settlement issue we're way off the subject,
but this settlement issue has done tremendous damage to Israel's reputation around the world,
and I only wish they could get out from under it, just as my own personal lament.
I don't know the details, I don't support the settlements, but I don't know how bad the behavior actually is but i do know very well that in terms of this pr war it
makes israel a sitting duck for an issue that they don't have a good answer for and that's very
difficult for me yeah that's why a lot of politicians here have called the what they
call the the the hill youth noah vote they live on the hilltops that are left home and put these like these um caravans and
tents and stuff the soaps have determined or or said that they are they're the most serious threat
for israel because they're causing so much damage a lot of people are aware of that but yeah yeah
they're calling for stricter stricter strict stricter measures on these people but um
and i guess the the parliamentary system with such
a close with such a thin majority um these people have outsized power now right because they they
swing both i think they it doesn't make much it doesn't make much of a difference i mean i think
the government politicians talk a lot of times other than making other than like oslo accords the center on both the right to
the left are actually pretty close and that's why that's what they're working pretty they're
working pretty good right now managing the war all right sir i i appreciate your time i i hope this
um interview uh in in some way uh helps people understand where you're coming from. I feared that you were going to be
much less reasonable than
I see that you are.
And I hope this helps people
see that. I wonder,
it can't be that unreasonable
if he's working at a major university.
But, okay.
There's fanatics in academia everywhere.
Yeah, fair enough.
Alright, sir. Some people there, those crazy people go to academia
enjoy your evening
and have a very happy new year
thanks okay
same thing, take care