The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The History of Stand Up

Episode Date: March 5, 2021

Wayne Federman is an Emmy-nominated stand-up, actor, author, professor, and podcaster. His new book is called, The History of Stand-Up: From Mark Twain to Dave Chappelle.  He co-hosts the acclaimed podcast: The History of Stand-Up.   

This is live from the table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cello, coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and on the Laugh Button Podcast Network. What a show, what a show, what a show we have today. We have with us from the West Coast, Mr. Wayne Fetterman, Emmy-nominated stand-up actor, professor, and podcaster. His new book, The History of Stand-Up, from Mark Twain to Dave Chappelle, comes out March 15th. And he's also currently co-producing a new George Carlin documentary

for HBO and Co. It's the acclaimed podcast, The History of Stand-Up. I announced Wayne before I announced ourselves. That's okay. I'm Dan Natterman, and I'm with Noam Dorman and Periel Ashenbrand, as usual. And Danny Cohen is with us. Danny, who's a regular here. I said to Periel, Periel, find me a Gentile,

because this podcast is too Jewish. But she got Danny Cohen. Apparently there was a problem with the reception. Anyhow, welcome, Wayne. It's been, I think, over a year. I haven't, I don't think, spoken to you. Maybe we spoke on the phone once, but I haven't seen your face since before the pandemic. So good to see you.

It was nice to see you. Is this all going to be aired, my video as well? Well, I don't know. Perry, you're the producer, so you answer that question. Yeah, tell it. She's shaking her head yes. So got it. Okay. Wayne, congratulations on the monumental achievement of this is actually your second book the history of stand-up is his first book you'll never guess period what his first way has nothing to do with stand-up tell me it was the it was a biography of pete maravich the basketball player really wow pistol pete yep yep the authorized biography. So, you talk about range. Yeah, I go all the way.

Yeah, from Phyllis Diller to Pete Maravich. And the next book will be about Bitcoin. Which, by the way, is at $50,000. I know, I saw. I had a whole Bitcoin and I sold all but 0.1. So, I'm a little disappointed. I sold all but 0.1. So I'm a little disappointed. There it is. The history of standup from Mark Twain to Dave Chappelle.

So why don't we get right into it? This is the topic that I think our listeners are really going to enjoy. Noam doesn't seem interested at all. No, I'm driving. I'm driving. I love it. So let me just tell you, I took a route which would normally have gotten me back at quarter to seven. There's something going on on the highway.

Actually, I see some flashing lights now. It's like an accident. I would be in the car for like an hour and a half on what would be a 45 minute drive. So I know there's no excuses to show business. But Noam likes political discussions, even though he owns a comedy club. That was sort of an accident. He also told me that he might be late. And I said, that is absolutely unacceptable.

So it was either show up from the car or show up late. So I actually... You're actually correct. It was irresponsible of me to take somebody on a trip I shouldn't have. And if someone was responsible to me, I'd be annoyed with them. Right. so i i plead guilty i'm sorry when can we date you mentioned mark twain but when can you date from what date can we date i don't know when to stand to begin

is what i'm trying to say well there is no right first stand up, but some historians point to this guy that influenced Mark Twain and his name was Artemis Ward. I don't know if you ever worked with them. Well, I haven't done it quite that long. But there was something going on. This is all right. There was something going on in the 1800s, around the mid-1800s, which was called the Lyceum Movement, which was people would make these serious lectures and people would pay money to see. They'd talk about biology. They'd talk about American history. They'd talk about – it was just basically adult education.

You know what's funny about what you're describing to me? If you think about it, literally everything they paid money to hear was wrong. Every single aspect. Go ahead. That's not true. There was some botany. There was a great botany. Anyway, so they had these lecturers.

So there was this guy, without going into great detail, named Artemis Ward, who became famous writing funny letters that got distributed in newspapers. So he was like famous across the country for writing. His real name's Charles Brown, believe it or not. And so one day he's working in Cleveland and the minstrel show comes in, all right? And one of the minstrels starts doing bits from his newspaper letters. And he's like, what the, I didn't even know this was possible. But then he thought to himself, he's like, oh, I didn't realize my written word

could become a stage presentation. So he reinvents himself as this lecturer who's gonna lecture about this thing called stories of the baby and his whole uh his whole take is that he will not talk about the topic of the lecture so he starts doing these comedy lectures that are huge in new york and then he just tours the country he like he would get a dollar a person to pay, like to see him. So he got like fifteen hundred dollars in for one night in San Francisco. That's a great story.

In the eighteen hundred, that's like a hundred. Yeah, a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of money. Right. It would be like forty seven thousand dollars now for just one night. Again, he had to pay his agent and whatever. So anyway, so guess what? He goes to England. He's so popular. He goes to England. Of course, it's England. It's damp. He dies of tuberculosis. He's 34. Okay. It's over. But before he died, guess who saw him perform? Mark Twain. We all know him. We give out the Mark Twain prize,

right? So Twain sees him and like, oh, I'm an aspiring writer. Maybe I could tour and do this. So he had already, so he's like, I'm going to do these famous Mark Twain tours. And of course, Twain toured the world doing this kind of comedy lecture. Sometimes he would do some sad stuff, but basically that there's a whole book that says a Twain is the first standup because of these lectures. They ignore the fact that Artemis was the guy that inspired him. So, so those are kind of like the earliest, but again, there was comedians, you know, I hate to say it in minstrel shows as well. So I don't know, no one knows exactly who the first standup, but that's in my book.

I have those two as the one of the four forefathers. Like when do you date kind of the modern era where a standup just came out and talked about his life and say, I was the other day I was doing this and my wife. Well, let me ask you this. Would you count? This is just a question for the whole group for everyone even someone driving is he's not driving i think he's stuck in i know he stopped i'm looking at his window it's just oh no he's moving a little bit uh would you count bob hope as a stand-up comedian of course oh, well, he didn't talk about his life at all. I don't remember, to be honest with you.

Oh, okay, okay. So it all depends. I'll tell you this, though. The word stand-up comedian, the term didn't come around until 1947. Oh, wow. Yeah, so Bob Hope was doing it before then. There was also... Uh-oh. Let's hear it.

I'm going to get shit for being pretentious for my accent for this but the french critical theorist oh my god well it's true he won the nobel prize for literature and he wrote a very famous essay um called on laughter what year is this? He was born in 1859. Yes. And here. Well, I'm saying yes. But what does that have to do with stand-up? He wrote about comedy and stand-up. Did he write about stand-up

or did he write about comedy? Both. But you just want me to be wrong. be wrong no no i want you to be precise and you have a track record you know no i'll admit it i i'll admit it i'd be very upset if she was correct but i but uh i don't think there's any i don't think there's any chance of that so so that's kind of the roots of it and then then, but really, like in the 40s, when they started calling these people, we're doing just standing alone on stage, telling, getting laughs. Like, what do you do?

Just stand, that's the gig. And so bookers would be like, that would be shorthand for that kind of act. Because a lot of times acts would have like music and music cues and all of this stuff. But if they wanted to just, oh, can you give me a stand-up that doesn't mean there's nothing you just need the microphone the spotlight and the stage that's it now stand-up is perceived as an american invention yes that accurate i mean i guess if mark twain and that guy artemis was the first ones i guess it is an american invention it It sure is. And part of it, I think, has to do with right there in the First Amendment, right? Like it's right in our founding documents that we're like, we're about free speech over here. So I think that's part of it. And also, we're a melting pot. So it brought a lot of

different ethnicities. I'm talking you jews that came to this country escaping you know and then they were like oh this is something i can do i can stand up on stage and be funny cut to milton burl and who was the first stand-up comedy manager that's awesome well there was you know will rogers is also one of the founding stand-ups but he was signed uh to william morris not the agency the actual guy william morris in 1901 or something so those guys have been around for a while what do you what so um what do you think the evolution has been if any like we started watching stand-up yeah you danny uh know him to the extent that he watched stand-up

uh in the 80s and i guess the 70s i mean can you say that stand-up has evolved yes in any yes in any precise way and if so how and how? A couple very interesting ways. So starting in the 50s, there was this guy, Mort Sahl, we all know him. And he started doing stand-up. It was sort of the, in a way, alternative comic. Because the main comics were these nightclub comedians who were in tuxedos. And working like these supper clubs. And then he worked this little room,

which is very similar to the Comedy Cellar. It's held a little more people. It's called the Hungry Eye in San Francisco. Have you heard of that at all? No, I just know we're at Carmen's. Yeah, well, Hungry Eye was like, literally, the way I described it in the book is they sandblasted all the, like the, all the artifice of show business.

So, you know, think of like a big Vegas showroom or something like that with big booths and a lady coming around taking your picture and you have to give $20 to get a good table. So, the hungry eye was in a basement like the Comedy Cellar, brick wall, the first brick wall place. And so, and then just a little square stage. And that's where Mort Sahl started doing this. And he was like, professional nightclub comedians would look at him and go, oh my God, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. It's kind of halting. He's talking about the news.

These aren't hard jokes at all. But the people in San Francisco, a little bit of the intellectual type, they loved him. Couldn't get enough of him. And then so he influenced two comedians in particular, Shelley Berman and Woody Allen. So then you, I'm sure you're from, well, maybe you're not. But anyway, those two guys said, oh, I think I can do this. I don't know if I can do what Joey Bishop is doing at Caesars Palace, but I can certainly do this.

And so that's how that started. And then, you know, next thing you know, the improv opens. And so now you have a comedy club. And not soon after that, a rising star opens or did you ever play there dan adam well i you know i was going to play catch a rising star catch a rising star he was on first avenue actually right across from where i currently live and but years ago when i didn't live in this neighborhood i went there to sign up for their open mic i think it was and and when i got there it had closed like oh my god my God. What year was that? 90-something?

93-ish. Yep, yep. But then they opened a catch-a-rising star on 28th Street and 8th Avenue. Rick Newman opened up another catch-a-rising star. And it didn't work. But it was a great play. And all the waitstaff was hired from FIT, the Fashion Institute of Technology. And these girls were so gorgeous.

So it was a lot of fun going down there i'm actually i never had sex with any of them but but the fantasy was always there and uh it was a lot of fun going there because all the waitstaff were fit girls who were you know one was prettier than the next but um and rick newman's a great guy and it was fun hanging out with him but the club never really did any real business um i don't think danny dann, you, you'd ever played catch. I mean, I started in 90, I started in 97. Okay. So that was after that. Well after I did. Yeah. Because right.

So the improv wasn't even around when you started, right, Danny? Nope. It was not around. Yeah. So, so did you, were you involved with the Greenwich village like the alt scene down there, Luna lounge and all of that? I played both groups. I would do – I would write a certain way for the downtown surf reality. Rafifi?

Yeah, all those rooms. And then I would try to get into mainstream. And then I played both. At some point, I was still bouncing back. You couldn't do both in the same room. You have to do – they were both completely different. Right, right, right, right. Wayne, I think Noah would probably be interested

in knowing whether his club figures at all in your book, The History of Stanton. Huge, huge, huge. Why? First of all, for a couple reasons. For a couple reasons. One, it was part of the 80s comedy boom. So if I'm not mistaken,

the cellar starts in about 82, right? Yeah, 81. Yeah. OK, 81. And at that time, this is just a little nugget in the book that no one cares about except comedy nerds, which was they didn't really name comedy clubs without the word comedy in them starting in the late 70s. The improv, that's obviously not the name of the stand-up place,

Catch a Rising Star, but starting with the comic strip with the opens in 76, and then the comedy cellar, and then there's the comedy zone and the comedy works. Well, I think I know the reason. Tell me, because it's branding, right? No, the reason is because the improv, for sure, and I don't know the history of Cat, did not start out as a comedy club.

It started out as a much broader entertainment room that wouldn't have wanted to narrow it. And I can remember going to Cat in the 80s, and they had music acts. Even as late as the 80s, they had music acts. Pat Benatar was a regular there I believe. Absolutely correct. So I think that's the reason I think the comic strip at that point decided no we're going to be just comedy. Right right and that happened all across the country for all of those rooms.

I'm sure Danny has played those rooms where you're like at the you know like I said the comedy works or or even the embarrassing ones like giggles and chuckles and yuck y at the you know like i said the comedy works or or even the embarrassing ones like giggles and chuckles and yuck yucks and you know all of those shorthand things where you would get a check and you'd feel like oh i'm the comedy womb is giving me money this doesn't feel great but i'll i'll take it i'll take so can i ask you a question oh when you're finished i want to ask a question go ahead i'm sorry absolutely absolutely but there's another reason the seller's important but go ahead go ahead when you're finished, I want to ask a question. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Absolutely. Absolutely. But there's another reason the cellar is important. But go ahead.

Go ahead. No. Well, I know you want to talk about the cellar. I should listen to that. But we passed it by. I'm very interested in George Carlin because as I kind of remember him, he straddled both types of comedy. He started out kind of like a nightclub comic doing, you know, that kind of stuff, and then had a total

transformation into the introspective, smaller type comic that you described. Is that correct? And what caused that evolution? Oh, it's an incredible story. You absolutely got it right. He starts, he really, he has like this, he was part of a comedy team for a little bit but he really starts his stand-up career in the village working at a play called place called the cafe a go-go and and the village is the scene this is like if you watch mrs mazel's the marvelous mrs mazel's like she sort of dramatizes it so it's this scene like he's down there. Richard Pryor is down there. Joan Rivers is down there. Woody Allen is down there. And Bill Cosby are all starting there.

All of them make it to the Ed Sullivan show and well beyond. One of them made it all the way to jail. But I don't want to go into that right now. So so Carlin's dream is to be Danny Kaye. That's his dream. He wants to be a film comedian and he thinks he can do it through standup. So he is a nightclub comedian. He's wearing a short hair, jacket, tie, and then slowly as he gets older, he realized, oh, I'm like a, I'm a punk kid. I'm a rebel kid who used to steal a lot. I got kicked out of everything. I kicked out of the army, the Boy Scouts, school, these

high school dropout, the whole thing. And he was identifying more with the counterculture, even though he's playing, he has a great phenomenal quote about like, he would be entertained. He was like around 29 or 30. He'd be entertaining people in Vegas. He about like, he would be entertained. He was like around 29 or 30. He'd be entertaining people in Vegas. He's like, oh, I'm entertaining the parents of the people I want to be talking to. So he basically drops out. You know, he had like $10,000 a week job opening for the Supremes in Vegas. Stops all of that. Has a kind of a, takes LSD, sort of that's a mind-changing thing, and then becomes like this counterculture guy, grows his hair out. This all happens on TV. And then guess what? These albums become huge, huge, class clown, AM, FM. And then he writes this incredible routine about the seven words you can't say on television. And suddenly he's bigger than he ever was working the mainstream clubs.

And then that, so that was the first. And then later on, he had like another transition when he like started talking about a little more with a little louder, angrier voice about American culture. So you got that exactly right. Did you see him early on, Noam? No, I would see clips of him on, I don't know, he used to do some of those old Ed Sullivan-type shows, whatever it is, and I didn't recognize him. And then, I don't know how, just through osmosis,

I kind of took that in. But I would even see pictures of him. The transformation was tremendous, you know? And he, interestingly, he hasn't been canceled yet. There's a few people that haven't been canceled. One is George Carlin, even though he used the N word and he used it, you know, brazenly. And the other guy actually hasn't been canceled.

It digress a little bit is, is Randy Newman who, you know, use it in that song Rednecks you know so it's interesting as unreasonable as these woke people are there's a limit to their unreasonableness and I don't think they're going to go back in time to a guy that clearly

had good intentions I don't think anybody can any reasonable case that Carlin was a racist and I don't think they would go quite that far in trying to. I know they will. Well, they still show, they still on YouTube, if you look up George Carlin N-word, you can still see his bits and get them while they're there

because they're not going to be there much longer, I'm sure. Zach Galifianakis also had a bit that used the N-word where, you know, I mean, I won't say the bit. You can look it up. But I don't think anyone's going to go back in time and try to cancel him. As I said, there's a limit to the unreasonableness, even of the woke, it seems to me. You know, without getting into the debate of it, I have to acknowledge that as something has become more and more unacceptable and you don't hear it as reaction. It's jarring. And it's just a Pavlovian response.

It's not, I mean, it's just syllables, right? And whatever they tell you, but it is jarring to hear people use that word now when apparently, you know, 20 years ago when we heard it, it wasn't, you know, I just can't help thinking about that. Like how, how just like biochemically something has changed. The word Oriental as a little kid, I used it to describe people from the far East and, and it seemed natural, you know, when I was very little. And then at some point I forgot when, but it became Asian. And now the word Oriental, it seems, you know, it's just, you get used to things and it you know it just seems

ridiculous so um i just arrived at a shade warming so i'm gonna be i'm gonna leave you guys for a few minutes i'll try to i'll try to all right cool man wait why don't you finish telling us about the seller you were telling me i'll wait for that i'll wait for that talk about the comedy seller history with the owner of the Comedy Cellar. That's what makes this podcast. I know. I know. Well, I get shy about that stuff, but go ahead.

Well, the Comedy Cellar. You can run inside and get situated. Well, in a weird way, the Comedy Cellar is tied, the rebirth of the Comedy Cellar, because it was tied to the show Louie and that that was shown at the top of that show and Louie became the confessional comedian like absolutely like opening up of being like the most embarrassing part of his life that became the fodder for his bits and people loved it and including that show that just the raw honesty of it all. And again, the village has been around like part of the comedy scene since the early

sixties. But what happened in Noma is you were right there when it happened. Suddenly people started flocking to that room to the point where you guys opened up a room around the corner and that's been selling out. So it became, I would say, the New York epicenter of stand-up, maybe for the whole country, in part because of that show, in part because the comedy seller did something that not a lot of rooms did, which was wouldn't drop a check during the show. And that was like a lot of people didn't like going to comedy clubs for that reason, because like in

the middle of a headliners act, suddenly everyone's trying to figure out who ordered the Mai Tai. And it's, you know, you've been there, Dan, or maybe you haven't headlined yet, but when you start headlining. So let me give you a few comments on that before I go. So yeah, absolutely. We got a supercharge, a boost from that Louis show. We were already on a, on a clear upward trajectory, which I attribute, by the way, I'm sitting here in the car with Steve, outside Steve. So if he disagrees, can he can chime in but um we were already on an upward trajectory which i attributed very much to the internet and the people people

were getting much better uh and much more reliable information online about what was the best place to go and what was a tourist trap yeah and that that us a lot. And then Louie came and yeah, but then Louie came in that and it kind of started out slowly. And then all of a sudden it was like, holy shit, people are just taking pictures of the front of the cellar and reenacting the Louie thing.

And I want to say, just so people know, we did not know or have any inkling that we were going to be featured in that opening until it aired. Louie never mentioned it to us, nothing. And as a matter of fact, there's another, there's an additional layer to that story, which I think is interesting.

If you notice the first season, although we were in the opening credits, we were equally featured with Caroline's. Right. And if you want to know the backstory on that. I do. At the end of the first season, after noticing the impact on business, which was clear. So originally, Louis had been paying me like, I don't know, $1,500 or something, you know,

something just to cover costs for whatever the impact of accommodating his taping was on our revenue. So they were paying us a lot. But then when I saw what it was doing for us i felt that this was i was being a hazard as juicy uh being a pig so i went to louis and i said listen louis i've never seen any impact from any exposure ever in the history in 30 years i've never seen any impact from it but this is for real so from now on i don't want to dime you just shoot whenever you want it'd be ridiculous for for me to take money for the kind of benefit that I would cost me hundreds of thousand dollars to

buy. And I think at the very same time, Caroline said, Louis, you got a hit. I think you should pay us more. I don't know that for sure. I don't know that for sure. But I suspect that because the following year, Louis never shot again at Caroline's and he dissed Caroline's on stage a few times. So something went wrong. So there's a lesson there, which is not, which is, it's a business lesson. It's not a comedy lesson, which is don't be a pig. It pays off. So yeah, it really does.

Can I ask you a quick question can i ask you a quick question uh just about the early before like right before the internet really blew up there was already like kind of a scene down there with you and the boston comedy club right yeah and uh those who don't know the boston comedy club was in new york city i know the right i call it the curiously named boston comedy one time because i was so used to it and didn't even realize how odd that was until i went on i think it was conan o'brien when he used to do this show here in new york and he said my next guest is a regular at the boston comedy club right here in new york and everybody laughed and i didn't i was like yeah I guess that is funny I'm just so

used to the Bosnian comedy right right right bizarre but go ahead go ahead give me a question no but I was just curious about that scene like what was your relationship with I guess was Kat still running it and then like did you share comedians if someone didn't show up would you say hey come on over was it because you were so close to each other, right? Well, we, we, we, we, we were friendly competitors. We would definitely wish chair comedians and you know, we, we, but we were a little, we were also a little hostile to each other and, and Barry Katz and I actually had a terrible falling out one time because I was at that time playing in my band in the cafe wah and he came into the wah with jason steinberg and he was really disrespectful to the i don't want to talk bad we're very good terms now but i think they were drunk and they were disrespectful

to the performers and they hung some boxer shorts on the air conditioning duct or something ridiculous and i got furious and i didn't really know who he was. I said, get the fuck out. So we had the big fight and I kicked him out. But then we made up. And yeah, but he ran that club quite differently. He ran that club almost very smartly, smarter than us in many ways. He ran that club as a kind of panning for gold enterprise. And that was his intention all along,

was to find some stars. Some talents and scoop them up. Yeah, he wasn't a... And our philosophy was exactly the opposite. We, this is really from my father, assiduously resisted any temptation. No, you're freezing. That's it.

Well, he can't. That's not his fault. I don't know why you're yelling at him. I'm not yet. I wasn't yet. Was I raising my voice? Well, just whilst I have a moment, I'll maybe go into your house

and get installed in front of your computer. And then. Yeah, I want to hear the end of this story. Yeah, he's got it. Yeah. I've frozen on like yeah yeah we'll see you inside we'll see you inside okay while he's getting inside i just want to say that for barry catch who was the owner of the boston comedy club in new york city

around the corner from the cellar again just for people that don't aren't familiar with the scene and how it was barry was a talent manager. He made most of his money managing people like Dave Chappelle, Jeff Ross, I think, the Freelander. Pretty much everybody on planet Earth was managed by Barry Katz at one time or another. Jay Moore. Jay Moore, yeah, a million people. So that was his main source of revenue.

And the club was just something he had on the side just so his clients could perform. Whereas Noam was a comedy club owner, or Noam's father at that time was a comedy club. That's how he made his money, owning a comedy club. He didn't have any interest in being a manager or being in that part of the business. Right. So a lot of comedy club owners are talent managers. They ultimately want to produce a sitcom.

They want the glory, the Hollywood glory, producing a sitcom, their name in lights. Gorman family, just were comedy club owners. They were there to sell fries, burgers, and hummus. Right, right. And at the end of the day,

you know, they did pretty well with it. I mean, you know. A very successful nightclub. It's a beautiful nightclub. They're nightclubs. Right, right. Their aspiration wasn't

to be Hollywood players. Uh-huh. Whereas Cats, that's what he wanted and that's what a lot of club owners... We're talking... Guys, we're talking

comedy history here. We'll be right back. Oh, no, I'm sorry. We don't break away. We don't break away. No, which is unfortunate because sometimes breaking away

allows you to reset and... Yeah, it gives you a chance. You get some water. And then you come back and say, we're talking because sometimes breaking away will get you to reset. Yeah, it'll give you a chance. You get some water. And then you come back and say, we're talking about, you know, and you reset the room. Right. He's no longer on the Zoom. Yeah, he's going to reset.

He's going to reset. He walked into the house and he'll come back. The Boston Comedy Club was the first comedy club I ever went to when I took the subway. I grew up in Queens, and I used to take the subway when I was like 15 years old into the city. And I'll never forget.

I was about 15 years old. I thought I was the coolest thing in the world sitting in the front row of the Boston Comedy Club. Yeah, they didn't part, I guess, at the Boston Comedy Club. Well, no. I mean, they didn't care. It was like the 90s in New York City.

They didn't give a shit. Well, but the 90s is still kind of the modern era because of partying is concerned. I mean, I don't think the seller ever let anybody in that was 15 years old. Well, I had a fake ID. Yeah, but you were 15. Do you remember who you saw that night? So I was sitting in the front row thinking I was so cool. And there was this young, very funny black guy on stage.

And he was like, you're kind of cute. And I was like, ha, ha, ha. And he was like, you have any black in you? And I was like, what? No. And he was like, you want some? And it was Chris Rock. Oh, Chris Rock.

Well, that's kind of a stock line unless Chris wrote it. Right. But you do that line also, Dan, right? I do. It never seems to work for some reason. I know. I've seen you do it. But that's kind of a stock line.

It may be that Chris wrote it or that he didn't, but he was very young. Anyway, so you were in the middle of saying – what was Noam in the middle of? No, he was talking about the differences between the two clubs and the friendly rivalry. I think you covered it. They just said that he – Barry Katz ran it to get himself where he got himself, which was the top of the talent managing world. And we ran it to be the best comedy club, as it were.

And both of us ended up where we intended to be. And, you know, intention, it's like one of those self-help books, but it really does matter. You visualize where you want to be, and it's very important to get there. Speaking of club owners that are managers, I assume you know Wayne. I like to put it in the book, but Richie Tinkin died this week. He was one of the founding owners of the comic strip here on the Upper East Side where I live. They're all gone now john mcgowan um bob wax and him founded the club they they had been gone for years uh and he he died this week but he was eddie murphy's manager and adam sanders

manager but he was eddie's manager during the time when eddie went from unknown comic to snl star to movie star right and he even has a cameo richieie Tinkin does, in the Party All the Time video when Eddie Murphy briefly became a pop artist. He's also seen in the delirious special. Yes, and he was in the last scene of Beverly Hills Cop 2

where he plays like some rich Beverly Hills person. Did you ever meet Richie? I think I did but i but i didn't have much interaction with him i think he came in one time as an old man but no one was the opposite of richie richie was a hardscrabble guy from the bronx or something yes yeah yeah he left home at 13 he became a bingo hall manager or something like that and a bar owner and the and uh and ultimately the comic strip whereas noam the finest schools uh tufts university are the hard scrabble part of the

ivy league though dan well you pen law um very very different uh but they all they both wound up comedy club owners um Um, but anyway, uh, wait, did you, uh, wait, do you have any relation with Richie at all? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was the, that was sort of the club, my club there, you know, when I was in New York, after I went to NYU, that's where I started my career and then moved out to LA in the, like 86. But in the book or the club in the book. Yeah. The comic strip is just mentioned i don't mention his name or anything but my one crazy memory of richie tinkin was um you know at the height of that eddie murphy frenzy and it was a crazy frenzy that one night i guess he was

drinking and then he went outside in front of the comic strip and was driving golf balls down First Avenue. Just... Wait, Richie was? Yes. Okay. Richie Dinkin, yeah. But he was...

He was the king, I guess, of the Upper East Side at that point. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Excuse me, Second Avenue. I don't know why I said First Avenue. Yeah, it was Second Avenue. You said First Avenue because First Avenue goes down i said first step yeah it was second you said first avenue because first avenue goes down and that's where he was right right right right i was thinking that no because of catch a rising star no it was on avenue actually goes northbound yeah yeah so he was driving them yeah yeah so but he was i don't know he was very interesting guy and i remember he would make the schedule

no i don't know you don't make the schedule but he would make the schedule no i don't know you don't make the schedule but he would make the schedule on like sunday night and all the comics would be gathered around there was no cell phones at that point and he'd make it at the end of the bar and then he'd kind of throw the clipboard with the schedule and it slid down the bar and he would just say, read them and weep. That was just a bunch of desperate comedian. It's gotta be the worst. Let me actually, I'm going to ask, know him about that. Like what is that pressure of like everyone wanting to play your club and

having to say no, how hard is that emotionally for you? Well, I don't have to do it, thank goodness. Esty is my buffer, and she enjoys it. No, she handles it with grace. It's very, very hard. And actually, it's different as I'm thinking to myself. There was a time when it was hard because there were people who were just delusional and not that good. And they never got a laugh or be marginal.

And you had to let them down easy. And now it's hard in a different way because everybody's so good. Why do you think that is why do you think like the entry-level comic is is better than it was several years ago i i don't know what's your would you have you have a thought on that i do but i would like yours well i you know maybe as comedy becomes a more viable uh route um you know, more, I don't know, the more intelligent people that might have otherwise been, you know, lawyers or doctors decide that they're going to be comics. Well, I think that Dan made an observation one time,

which I'm surprised he didn't come back to today, which is that the comedians are older than they've ever been. And that would seem to imply that they've accumulated. The good comedians have been able to make a living, a middle-class living, where maybe they weren't able to do that. So they stuck around in the business

and the talent accumulated. And I also think that we're living in a golden age of comedy quality. And I think golden ages are unpredictable and magical. We've seen them in music and in sports. And I think there's just like when you have people like Chappelle and Rock and Bill Burr and Louis C.K. and all at the same time, there's just a little coincidence to that, I think. But I don't, you know, maybe there's other factors. What do you think? The internet?

I don't know. There are also, there are recipes. I mean, you know, there are recipes for comedy. So you just have to figure out what the recipe is. Like chef. It's like being a chef. You can learn how to cook. And if you're good and you like food,

you can become a great chef because now you just go on YouTube or you go to a food network and you can sort of figure out how can become a great chef because now you just go on youtube or you go to a food network and you can you can sort of figure out how to become a chef and you can figure out how to become a comic it's there are recipes there there are probably like two or three different categories of stand-up and then you find one that works for you and then and then you have to have timing but a lot of people have timing i have a lot of funny friends that aren't stand-up comics. They're hilarious. They just don't make it. They don't make money.

I think that what I had brought up before and neglected to bring up this time might be the best theory is that the comics are just more experienced than they've ever been. I mean, I've been at it over 20 years. When I started doing comedy, the only people that have been doing it as long as I've been doing it now

are like, you know, Rickles me know wrinkles me i mean like seinfeld was only when i started you know maybe 20 years in maybe not even i mean we've just been doing it for so long because so many comics got in in the 90s and we're still here it's it's also the inverse of i mean comedy, comedy, comedians are A-level. It's an A-list industry. Like it sells out the garden. When we were kids, rock stars would sell out the garden. And now it's comedians sell out the garden. And rock stars don't get better with age.

Comedians do get better with age. Oh, that's interesting. And rock stars don't appeal to young kids once they get to a certain age, but somehow comedians do maintain their appeal to young kids as they get older. So I'm not answering any question, but there are these interesting observations to think about and maybe cobble them together into some grand theory. I don't know. Wayne said he had a theory. So what was your theory?

No, my theory was very much that I'd stand up, my theory was very much that a standup comedian, somebody who's interested in being a standup comedian, let's say you're a funny kid in school and you're like, Oh, people want me to like, you can go on YouTube and see hours of John Mulaney's development. And you're like, Oh, I can see what that is. I can see hours of Bill Burr. I can see hours of, and you're like, oh, so you're already exposed to level 10 standup at an early age. And you can see the development of the person.

So it's like, you're already at a comp. Whereas when I started, I was like, oh, let me buy a, you know, a Carlin album or a prior album or something like that. And so that's what I think. I just feel like the base knowledge of what it is and what you have to do to be funny is just out there now. One thing we do know for sure. A lot like what Cohen said was that there's a recipe, you know.

Yeah, it is a little bit. Yeah, no question. One thing we do know for sure is that the theory for the comedy collapse, whatever the opposite of boom is, in the 90s, the theory then was because, well, it's all on TV now suck and it's clear now that it wasn't because of the overexposure because there's never been more exposure than than on youtube people were worried that all now there's a comedy network that shows clips of stand-up comedy and now people that's why they're not going to clubs that had nothing to do with the reason they weren't going to clubs they stopped going to clubs in the 90s because they went and they weren't funny. There were just too many clubs and not enough funny comics. And now that the comics are funny, I think they get busier the more they can watch it on TV, just like The Grateful Dead.

You can't really burn material if it's funny. People will watch it 10 times and then pay, buy a ticket to come see you say it again. But Noam, what you call a comedy boom is really a comedy seller boom because the other clubs before the pandemic, now everybody's closed, but before the pandemic, the other clubs were not doing particularly well necessarily, many of them. But I think there's a nationwide comedy boom.

There's a Netflix comedy boom. There's a lot, as I said, Madison Square Garden comedy boom. Your average comedy club in Indianapolis, unless it's a huge headliner, it's not going to be full. If an e-roll is down, you'll get whoever's there, but

some clubs are better than others. One thing to throw out, the comics today are really, really funny. It is completely different than it was in the 90s. In the 90s, you'd have one act, two acts, and you'd be like,

let's just cross our fingers and hopefully we'll get through the other three. There were some very innovative characters when I was starting that I'm not seeing. Like Dice and... Emo? Innocent. Oh, Tim Ferriss, yeah.

And Stephen Wright were all very innovative. Yeah. You know, even if their joke writing wasn't as good as Gary Goleman's or whomever, or Demetri Martin's, their character was very... Also, in the 90s, a lot of the New York comics that were really good

got deals, took a bunch of their friends who were also writers in comics in the clubs, went to Hollywood and in their sitcom. And then all of a sudden you had a lot of people, there weren't any great comics in New York because they were all getting deals. Then reality TV came along. All these comics started building up and building up. Nobody was getting any deals in the late 90s.

And then in the 2000s no not one comic got a deal ever like it was like six years went on where television didn't give any development deal to any comic so they all built up and then there were a lot of comics so now there's a lot of great comics in new york city uh whereas in the 90s they all went to hollywood and took a bunch of writers with them a bunch of other comics. So there was a mad exodus to Hollywood with all these sitcom deals. Yeah, that's a great point, Danny. I'm going to read a little something from my book.

These are just 90s comedians that got not only shows, but shows on the air. Ready? Here we go. Margaret Cho, Dice Clay, Anthony Clark, Dave Chappelle, Sam Kennison, Greg Giraldo, Sue Costello, Richard Lewis, Tamayo Atsaku, Ellen DeGeneres, Drew Carey, Chris Rock. I'm just at the ease at this point. This list goes on and on and on. Campanera. Yeah. So there was was a big there was a boom for that kind of thing so that might have been the reason there was maybe a dearth of comedians in new york at that time yeah so and also i i feel like partly in uh when the, when Letterman came back to New York, I think also that helped kind of start a Renaissance of like, Oh,

I can be the new New York and I can do letter, you know, an 1130 show instead of having to be out in LA to get the tonight show. Like, let me ask you this. No. Like when McCauley, do you remember Jim McCauley was booking the tonight show? Did he ever come into your club? No, I don't believe he did. We were never good at getting into that pipeline for the Tonight Show. I think that when Ray Romano got his Letterman spot, I think through the comedy. So that was the first time

really that we had been involved in that sort of thing oh interesting yeah so i'm just saying it wasn't and now i feel like new york is like i said an epicenter he was a huge he was a huge uh um event for us ray ray big very big yeah because he was the first like really guy who identified himself publicly with the comedy seller who became a star like that by the way wait i'm keeping a close eye your book is out on the 15th is that correct yeah eyes of march i will be keeping that's right the eyes of march i'll be keeping a close eye on your book sales because where you go with i will follow because i wrote a book myself what is it all tell me it's not the history of stand-up novel it's a novel please god oh it's a novel about a comedian but it's about it's it's about a stand-up of course so so well not of

course i mean i originally i wanted to not write about stand-up because i'm like no i want to do something different but then i thought well you know a that's what i know and b there is a market a niche one perhaps but some market where people have just – so the point is if your book becomes a runaway bestseller, which you're laughing at, so that's not a good sign. But I'm interested in knowing what the market – like my book I'd like to think is literary in some way and would appeal to anybody,

but it would especially appeal to people that are into stand-up shows. I look to your book and see how many comrades are out there is the question. I don't know. We're going to find out on the 16th of March. We'll know soon enough. And it's right there on Amazon. You can't hide your book sales from that

place. Can I ask what era this comedian is? Present day. comedian this present day present day oh present day okay is he new york based the history of believe me i'm not stepping on your toes in the slightest there's no history here okay does he work does he work the cellar no but he does work at the comedy den which is based on the cellar okay and tell me about the guy who runs the comedy den in your book oh god he happens to be a former lawyer that likes to talk about politics he's the owner of the in my book the owner of the comedy den is the closest is the closest to real life guy he's the person i ripped

off the most because i knew one wasn't mine because he's not in show business like other comics would be like hey hey, what the fuck? You know, you're taking my character. You stole my essence. But no one doesn't care. You know, no one would be happy for me. I don't care. I'm flattered. That's nice.

So anyway, so you know, you got to market the hell out of this, though, Wayne. This shit doesn't sell itself. I mean, you got to go on podcasts. I am doing podcasts. Thank you thank you by the way for inviting me to this this was very perry i don't know how you even found out about it um so i'm doing some podcasts hopefully some press in some newspapers if anyone cares but that kind of adds a a level of like office and authenticity to the project. And I'm going to be going on Jimmy Fallon.

Oh, that's amazing. Are you going to be Jimmy Fallon or are you just going to talk? Say it again? So you're doing a set on Fallon? No, I think I'm just going to sit down like a pretentious author. How do you think I'm going to do? How do you get on Rogan? That's where all the money is.

That's where the books and Marin. You can get on Marin too. I'd love to get him natural for marin why would i know marin knows you right i mean you guys yes yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm look i'm very close well it hasn't happened yet but it's in the works it's in the works let me put it that way do you have any blurbs do you get any blurbs for the book three Three. Who has blurbed you? Two people I don't think you're going to know. One is Journey Gunderson. She's the executive director of the National Comedy Center. The other one is Cliff Nesteroff.

He wrote an amazing book called The Comedians. And then Judd Apatow. He's like a comic who wants to direct. Yeah, I've heard of him. Now, I read a lot of blurbs. Comedians write books, mostly memoir direct. Yeah, I've heard of him. Now, do the, you know, I read a lot of blurbs. Comedians write books, mostly memoirs. Yeah. Our own Perry L. Ashton Brand wrote a memoir.

But a lot of comedians write memoirs, a couple write novels, mostly memoirs. But a lot of the blurbs on these books, it's clear whoever wrote the blurb didn't read the book. Right. You know, you read a blurb like, say a blurb like, I don't know, who wrote a book? Tom Papa wrote a book. I don't know what the blurbs are, but theoretically or hypothetically, somebody will write, Tom

Papa is always funny every time I see him. All right. It's just a vague thing about Papa. But what about the book? You know, if you like it. It doesn't matter. The blurb is really for, you give the blurb to your agent, and then that helps the agent sell the book to the publisher. That's really what the blurb is for.

The blurb doesn't help sales to the consumer. I don't think it does. That's why I didn't make it a big part of my campaign. But we're going to say, I do think the story is compelling, and I do think there's an interest in stand-up in a big way and have you followed there's a young she's a i think she's yeah she's got her master's degree and she puts up videos kind of pontificating about stand-ups and stand-up comedians on youtube and she's pretty compelling and she's we're researching how many how many views is she getting now it's all about views i know i know not a lot yet but uh but it's it i don't know who knows it's interesting katie mears is her name

but i'm gonna write that down that's the wrong question dan katie mears i'd love to get yelled at by your uh for any of you i don't know so so She's a shrew, Wayne. She's a shrew. Go ahead. No, I liked it. By the way, we've almost done it. Wayne, I don't know if you have time constraints. I'm good. I'm totally good. There are some interesting things that happened this week outside of the comedy. Yes, let's move on.

Who do I want to get to? I know Noam loves to talk about politics. I haven't got much time, Dan. I'll do one. Do one. What's the quick one? Who doam loves to talk about politics. I haven't got much time, Dan. I'll do one. Do one. What's the quick one? Who do you want to talk about? There's Cuomo who's in Deep Kimchi.

Just multiple choice. Like what? Three. Top three. There's Cuomo and then there's Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss? Yeah. Let me hear the third. Cuomo. Oh, it's just those two. think that's I mean what else big happened this week Perry and I are just like I don't know I the seller is the comedy and the comedy seller is reopening so no what topic do you want to address oh what date is that when does it yes that's what I want to talk about April 2nd they're going to let us open again with one third capacity.

I'm not, so the Cuomo thing, very quickly, I think what I would like to say about that is zooming out is that I think we should congratulate ourselves here. And by congratulating ourselves, I mean me, that we were really more correct about every single issue in the last year on the coronavirus than maybe any other place in the world. We called masks. We called Cuomo concealing information. We called that the vaccine would come along. What didn't we go? We called that they should be shutting down early i mean every single thing about covid right we turned out to be correct on well no i'm saying even when we

had the nerve to disagree with our experts like perriel's friend satish you know the virologist and perriel said how could you say such things? That's what I think. Turned out we were even correct about those things. What did Satish say that wasn't right? Well, I told you that they'd be stealing PPE. That wasn't me, though. That wasn't him. No, and he didn't think they'd have a vaccine in time. Right.

He didn't trust the mRNA. So Cuomo, the big scandal with Cuomo, is really lying, allegedly about the deaths and the various coverups. The, the, the sex scandals. I mean, if he tried to kiss this woman against her will, I'd say that's serious. The rest of those things don't sound to me like resign demanding offenses. They sound, they sound boorish as hell, but you know,

they're not coercive, but the, but if he, if he physically tried to make somebody kiss him, I guess that's, that might have to be the end of him. Right. I don't know. I think, I think he'd do better to just come clean and apologize i know if i heard him say perry oh you're a woman you can tell him what you think if you heard him say listen i really liked her i got carried away i thought she liked me too and i tried to kiss her and i feel like a jackass what would you what would your reaction as a woman be to that accused of unwanted advance at a wedding.

Can I kiss you? No, no. I'm talking about Lindsay Boylan. Yeah, what? We know her, don't we? Hasn't she been on the show? I don't know. I'm not really.

So what's the accusation here? That he tried to kiss somebody that didn't want to be kissed? He tried to kiss her. At the wedding, he's not an employee. He tried to kiss. I mean, that's, I mean, I'm not defending it, but I don't think that's the main thing here. I think the people who work for him, that's much more serious

because they have, to use Louis' word, a dilemma. When they know that the boss is interested in them sexually, they have to figure out how to negotiate that dicey situation. And, Pariel, you've probably had to negotiate that situation. I usually just fuck the boss. That's one way to handle it and rise to the top option.

But, and then, so that's, that's Cuomo. I mean, I, there was a Mr. Potato head was in the, in the news. We said, we said, we said on this this on this show that i said that cuomo had a very good bedside manner that was fooling everybody it had nothing to do with his competence you man people were people were outraged that we were saying this i was outraged i recall you saying it i mean look i don't know i don't know the specifics of it you know it's it all it's hard it's hard to judge that stuff you know what about what about dr seuss quick what did dr seuss do it's a wedding unwanted sexual kissing trying

to kiss somebody at a wedding also i don't know i don't know what what does that mean somebody tried to kiss you against your will i mean you know go to france they're gonna kiss you no he said he's at the wedding the wedding thing and the wedding was not somebody that worked for him. He put his hand on her back and said, I want to kiss you. Wait, this is Dr. Seuss did this as well? I'm sorry. He came on to a girl at the wedding. He harassed.

Yeah, no, I got that. No, I know. He came on to a girl. He lunged at you and kissed you four times. They just come at you. They don't even ask. He came on to a girl. They'll kiss you in a tree. They and kiss you four times. They just come at you. They don't even ask. He came on to a girl. They'll kiss you in a tree.

They'll kiss you in a... Would not, could not. In France, they kiss you on the cheek. They kiss you on the... And in France, apparently, they write a lot about comedy history, too. That's what I learned today. Now, what did Dr. Seuss do?

Dr. Seuss, apparently six of his books, I think he wrote 60, I didn't know it was that many. The company that, Dr. Seuss Productions, whatever it's called, the company that owns the books, decided to cease publication of six of the books because they have racist language and imagery one of the books the only one i've seen is it says a china man eating with sticks and it was a picture of a chinese guy kind of like he's got like a traditional chinese garb on he's got like one of those cone

hats and like a like a traditional chinese garb and he's got a long ponytail. Right. And he's got chopsticks. And so the issue is, A, the word Chinaman, which is obviously an outdated word that we don't use anymore. And some people had a problem with the image itself. Can you see it, Noam? You could probably find it. No, I wasn't looking.

There were some other things. Yeah, no, there's been a long kind of history of him with those, especially during World War II. He did some more propaganda cartoons that... So... Yeah, that were... The World War II, he was anti-Hiller, but he did... Right.

Before he was Dr. Seuss, and I think it was Godman Chauvin, he did some cartoons like this. It's kind of mocking cartoons of black people. I will take it off. I don't know if you're allowed to show that, but that's what he's in trouble for. So of course, these are disturbing images.

And I imagine that they were- This is the Chinese one we're seeing right now. Yes, I see it. I don't know. That actually, I'm not sure why that is racist. I mean, I've seen pictures of movies of Chinese people. Breakfast at Tiffany's is famous for the guy on the second floor. It's Mickey Rooney.

It's Mickey Rooney. The guy. I mean, I don't want to say anything wrong, but if I could imagine a Jewish guy like that that doesn't look that that bad to me the images i think what's really the subtext here is that these he did these clearly racist cartoons back when everybody did this kind of stuff and he did it and it got him in trouble for that i don't know it'd be interesting to know what chinese people think of that cartoon the mean but that this book with the Chinese in but it's also the word Chinaman yes take it out they could change that six of them that

they were problematic images I mean they gotta learn to distinguish between calling something racist because they use the word that was used at that time and things which were actually racist at their time. When you were mocking the looks of black people, there was never a time when somebody could say, you know, that's you're mocking somebody. But the word Chinaman, I don't I don't I don't think he was mocking. Maybe he was. I don't know. I don't want to defend him. I don't know. I mocking. Maybe he was. I don't know. I don't want to defend him. I don't know. I think this is so crazy.

Like, you're going to have to cancel, like, all art from, like, you know, the 1400s. Like, why can't you just put a disclaimer in front of the book? I mean, you're going to stop publishing, you know. I don't, like, Mein Kampf is going to keep going out there, though. Like, I don't like my comp is going to keep going out there though like i don't understand well look the the ultimate uh difficult example all roads of this sort lead to huckleberry finn yes and nobody's quite figured out what if you if you think dr seuss was bad you know i think the difference is if there is a difference, is that Dr. Seuss is aimed at children, whereas we can see... Huckleberry Finn?

Huckleberry Finn is aimed at young adults, I think. I mean, nowadays, first of all, is anybody reading Huckleberry Finn? You know, you read it for school, but... Not anymore. Not anymore. But Dr. Seuss is for children. So, you know, you can explain to an adult in an English class, but we read Huckleberry Finn, I was, I guess, in 10th grade.

You can explain to the kids, look, this is how it was back then. And this is the words that they used. And you can't explain that to a three-year-old. Three-year-old or four or five-year-old, you're reading Dr. Seuss to him. You know, I think he's more impressionable. And so I think that if there is a difference, then that would be the difference. So I have, I think he's more impressionable. And so I think that if there is a difference, then that would be the difference.

So I have, I think I've said this before, I have a take on the Huckleberry Finn thing that most people would expect me. I think they shouldn't read Huckleberry Finn in high school. I think the dynamic of a classroom of white people and black people together and N-word gym and all, I don't think Huckleberry Finn is racist. I think what we know about it,

he was actually writing a comment against racism in the scheme of the book. But there's so many books out there and it's awkward and we don't have to dig in. If I were a black parent, I'd say, of all the books, you got to read that book. And my son has to read this passage out loud. Yeah, yeah.

Enough with Huckleberry Finn. Read it in college. Your kids hopefully read books on their own. Not every book has to be assigned in school, right? And I feel the same way about Dr. Seuss. It all gets blended together. One thing is that his outrage and his criticism of Dr. Seuss as a person, I think that's ridiculous. But the fact that certain things are outdated i saw an odd couple

episode uh last year and in it and don't forget this is gary marshall who i assume was a pretty left-wing guy at the time they made some really what i thought was kind of offensive joke about this black guy being a shoeshine guy like the joke was you're black. So you probably shine shoes, you know? And I'm like, well, it just had, I don't know. It's hard to believe they thought that was okay back then, but they did. And I don't like, I don't really have a problem with them cutting that scene out to show at, at dinnertime to black and white families. i it's like well yeah i saw an episode of

happy days yeah i guess i saw it on youtube or whatever but it was a scene where there was this black kid from the school that fonzie and richie knew and they wanted to set him up with a girl and and fonzie something like where do you know a negro girl or something like that so um or i i think they use the word negro but whatever what but the word negro is one issue the other issue is is they didn't even the notion was is that him dating a white girl was completely right not possible yeah because they said you want to set him up with a girl but we don't know any black girls so i don't know i mean that's probably how it was back in the 50s yeah you know um or maybe or it might have been how it was in the 70s where you know i don't know whether they were trying to make a statement about the 50s yeah you know um or maybe or it might have been how it was in the 70s where you know i don't know whether they were trying to make a statement about the 50s or whether they were talking about

their own view of things and that they didn't think i should date a white well i don't know but i'd have to talk to that was gary marshall too i think happy days right so yes yes if he were around i guess i'd ask him about that because that. Because it might have been in his mind, like, of course you can't set her up with a... And it should be said that Dr. Seuss then later, somebody mentioned to me, but I think it's true, that he wrote some books which were pointedly critical of racism. So he, I don't know. I think Dr. Seuss was probably a good man. He was a genius.

I mean, is there any child, children's book author that can hold a candle to him? No. Not that I really know that world, but. Maybe the guy with the giving tree. What's his name? Al Silverstein. I mean, Dr. Seuss's books are a little bit annoying.

Oh, sorry, y'all. I have to go. Okay, man. So it's been good. Thank you, Wayne, again. The I have to go. Okay, man. So it's been good. Thank you, Wayne, again. The Ides of March. That's a great episode. Yes, it was.

Thank you. Thanks, brother. The Ides of March. I want to say one thing before you plug it. I told this to Wayne. Okay, Perry Hill, go ahead. Oh, my God. I hate it when he fucking does that.

Wayne, your character on Curb was one of my all time favorites. Oh my God. Thank you so much for remembering. That's nice. I play one of the worst guys in the world. He was also illegally blonde, if you recall. All right. We don't have to do all the credits,

but thank you. That's very nice of you to say. And really, I was shocked you guys. Anyway, thank you for reaching out. I love doing it. You can pre-order now, now by the right you can pre-order right now yeah it's available kindle hardcover or both or kindle soft cover and on something called audible all probably on the 15th the audible might come out on the 17th because we're having some issues with that. Okay. So do you read it? Yes, unfortunately.

You have to hear this voice. This voice. Can you handle it? Not great. Andy, what do you think? It's a good voice. Oh, thank you. So Amazon.com, the history of stand-up by Professor Wayne Federer.

From what to what? From racist Mark Twain to Dave Chappelle. Right. They both use the N-word. They both use the N-word. And beyond, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe you end at Chappelle.

Podcast at ComedyCellar.com. You can email us with comments, questions, suggestions, criticism of the constructive kind or of the destructive kind.

We prefer the constructive kind. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time on Love. Bye, everybody. Okay prefer the constructive kind. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you next time on Life. Bye, everybody. Okay, I'm leaving.