The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The Jeff Singer Saga and True Crime Novels

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Mehran Khaghani and Lara Bazelon

This is live from the table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar. Coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and the Laugh Button Podcast Network. Dan Natterman here. Mehran, like that intro. I told you I do a good job. Dan Natterman here with Noam Dwarman, owner of the world-famous comedy cellar. Also, Perry Alashian Brand is with us, our producer and on-air personality. It just sort of evolved that way. It wasn't how we

started. Mehran Kagani is here. Who is Mehran Kagani? If you don't know him, you might know him already. He's a regular here at the Comedy Cellar. He is... What can we say about Mehran? He's a Persian extraction, I guess. I'm a big

gay Iranian. He's a big gay Iranian. I mean, that's all that needs to be said. You would have seen him in the post office in Tehran. Come on! Noam, I did want to start off talking briefly about the two around the corner just to give the listeners an idea of what I'm talking about.

We have four rooms right now the comedy cellar uh the original comedy cellar i call it comedy cellar classic the village underground the and upstairs um from the village underground there is the fat black pussycat lounge and the fat black pussycat bar two rooms that basically are, not basically, they are adjacent to each other. And Noam, I assume you're aware that if you're performing in one of the rooms, you'll often hear the cheers, C-H-E-E-R-S, and applause from the other room

bleeding into the room that you're in. We don't charge extra for hearing both shows at the same time. That's a solid response. But you don't hear the jokes, you just hear the... I know. Listen, I don't know what to do about it. I'm working. There are things we can do with the sound. It's getting better.

I don't know if it's... If it matters that much, to tell you the truth. I watched some shows and I noticed just myself that it didn't really, didn't really bother me. You know, you kind of got used to it pretty quickly, like a subway going by or something, but I don't know. I mean, it's, should I, I'd like to find another room somewhere in the neighborhood.

I don't know. Is it to the point where we should, we should discontinue one of the rooms? Look, the shows are good. I mean, you'd have to ask the audience if it, if it's going to diminish their experience and make it seem somehow like you're, I don't know,

tarnish the brand on some level, then is it worth having an extra room there? And that's the question. The audience's feedback has been very positive. Well, and then I think that's your answer. You know, I mean, my initial thought was, well, you know, this may make it look like a little unprofessional, you know,

that you're hearing. Let me email Jennifer now because she's been on top of all the customer feedback. Let me just double check that what I'm saying is true, that we haven't got any complaints. Because I haven't been on top of it like I used to be. Okay. any complaints because i haven't been on top of it like i used to be okay i mean you may not get complaints but people may i don't know sub they might we send them all an email every morning like how was your show okay oh wow how do i feel about it

i mean it's okay i don't love it it's obviously not ideal when i'm trying to do a joke and it it doesn't happen often but once in a while you'll get in kind of interrupted and it'll fuck up the joke a little bit. I mean, how do you feel about it? I know that I I've hosted both rooms and when the sound bleeds, all I have to do is let the manager who's working know to make a quick adjustment and the adjustment does make a difference. We're getting I'm buying some I could put up I'm buying some parabolic speakers. You know what parabolic speakers are? You know what a parabolic arch is?

These are these speakers that they use in museums and trade shows where the sound is pretty much contained in that little area and then you walk past it. It has a dome, a plastic dome over it. It works in museums and stuff. I'm getting a bunch of those. I'm going to see if that works in museums and stuff. So I'm getting a bunch of those.

I'm going to see if that works in a comedy club. Why do we have dogs? I thought it was like a horse laughter. That's my cell phone text message notification. Some of the notifications that come through, I just wanted to make it clear

when I'm getting a text message. Okay. Now you say you're looking for another room. If you find another room, will you then eliminate one of the two rooms that we've spoken about? Yeah, perhaps. Or will you just try to get as much revenue and I don't fault you for it as possible? It's not just revenue for me, Dan. That's right.

It's comedians very much enjoy the extra work. You know, that's a good point. Although I have personally, and this could just be me, it's very possible that it's just me. I have not found the amount of work that I'm getting to have increased. It hasn't. In fact, this Friday, I don't have any spots, which is very unusual because I put in for Friday and to not have a spot on a

Friday is unusual for me. I, you know, I don't know about that. I have to look about that, but you're on the spot. Well, no, I am. Yeah. It seems like he's put you on the spot. No, I'm not on the spot. He's not on the spot. Look, no, I am. Yeah, it seems like he's put you on the spot about it. No, I'm not on the spot. He's not on the spot. Look, I haven't I'm emailing Esty right now. You should get a spot on

Friday. Look, I haven't lived up to my end of the bargain. I have failed whining. I'm not whining. I'm not I'm not whining. I'm blaming Dan Natterman. Dan Natterman, after 25 years, shouldn't have to be worried about a spot at the comedy cellar.

I should have so much going on that a spot at the comedy cellar is of no relevance. I blame me, quite frankly. Can I ask? I didn't live up to my end of the bargain. I was supposed to become, if not famous, at least Tom Papa level and fail to do so. I think that we have a lot of people in town, a lot of famous people might be coming this weekend. But yeah, just because you didn't get more spots, we were turning away. We need more spots, Dan. We have we have a lot of comedians.

And as I said to you, I shouldn't have to rely on the comedy. So the comedy for me should just be a fun place. I go make a few extra bucks, eat some falafel and that's it. The fact that I rely on it, but that's just plain. We literally don't sell falafel. They sold falafel, but I'm still living back in the, in the tooth, in the early aughts when they sold falafel. But I should be able to come here, hang out with Louis Schaefer.

See, again, I'm living in the past. Okay, so let's get, should we get, Noam, unless we have other business, should we get to the main event of the reason we invited Mehran? Yeah, yeah. I mean, unless you have something else you'd like to discuss. No, I'm just concerned about, you know, it's the weekly Dwarven is after as much money as he can spot.

And I don't mind it. A little bit sour grapes coming from Natterman, but I'll take it. I mean, a non-Jew couldn't even broach the subject without me calling it anti-Semite, so I'll take it from Dan. But calling it anti-Semite. So I'll take it from Dan. But speaking of anti-Semites.

It's at this point that you guys didn't used to do shows in the lounge, right? You're only doing that because of COVID, I thought. We started doing it because of COVID. And the irony is that a lot of comedians really liked it. So I said, OK, well, we'll keep doing it. And now. New jokes in there. New joke night.

New joke in the lounge. But I'm saying. Yeah, in the lounge. They like jokes in there. New joke night. They like the other room of the cellar of the Pussycat. They like that room. Comedians don't mind playing it. I like it. The bar, it's good. Yeah. So,

it may not, you think it's more revenue, but actually I think it's fucked up the, it might have fucked up the business there. But the thing is that the bar business is taking so long to get back to normal, like the regular, like just old bar business where, you know, that it's just been hard to wait. At least comedy brings in some people,

but we're doing, as opposed to the seller, which is doing close to what it used to do already, the plot by Pussycat is doing less than half in general of what it used to do. So we're taking as opposed to the seller, which is doing close to what he used to do already. The plot by pussycat is doing less than half in general of what he used to do. So we're taking a beating. I believe that. Yeah. Well, things will be back once we get the, uh, hopefully the foreigners back, you know, that we, I mean,

usually when you do a show here, you say, who here is from like, out of the country, you'll have a few English people some swedish germans uh finnish for some reason seem to come but but um now it's all american people and not even canadians are coming so i assume that when that's back and probably within the united states no how many tourists are we getting from within the united states no i don't know but what i'm saying is that we're filling all the comedy seats but i used used to do a very, very healthy bar business, not with tourists, like with just New York or students, whatever it is.

And that business has not yet come back. And it may not come back because people may have formed other habits. I built a bar in my own home. Did you? I did. It was the first thing I built when we What came? What did you build first, The glory hole or the bar?

Why do you think I picked the apartment? The glory hole was in there Okay, speaking of gay anti-Semites Can we talk about Mehran's Thing this week? Because it made worldwide news I haven't talked to anyone about this So this is the exclusive

And I have to say Mehran and I are friends It made worldwide news. I haven't talked to anyone about this. So this is the exclusive. And I have to say, I'm not sure. Mehran and I are friends, I think, and we respect each other's intellect. But we may not see eye to eye on every aspect of what went on here. But we'll see. Just to establish background, Jeff Singer is, we discussed him a little bit last week. Start from scratch. Jeff Singer is a guy who's been in the business as long as I have. I met him when he was an assistant for Dave Becky. Then he became an agent at Abrams Artists and I was actually a client of his.

Then, I'm not sure exactly if he went right to the Montreal Festival after that, but he's been with the Montreal Comedy Festival for a long time and he's the booker there. Does he book everything, Mehran, just the new talent or the whole thing? Well, I don't think he shoulders everything, but he does scout the new faces, which is the big sort of reveal of the Montreal Comedy Festival. Well, the new faces used to be back in the 90s and early aughts. Kind of a big deal. A lot of people would literally get $100,000, $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 development deals with networks as a result of having done the new faces. Some people with only two or three years of experience in comedy

would get huge deals. That doesn't happen really anymore, but that used to happen, but it's still considered prestigious and even though that doesn't happen anymore. It's somewhat newsworthy. I don't think it's as prestigious as it used to be. Okay. Anyhow. People don't know what we're talking about. So, Mayron, you...

Say what it is, though. Not everybody knows. Not everybody knows what it what is. The Montreal... The Montreal Comedy Festival that takes place in Montreal. I don't know. It needs much more explanation than that.

Marielle, our audience are not totally... The Laps Festival is also... Hold on. Let's start over because people are probably turning blue. Listen, you were at a club what club were you at i wasn't there i wasn't at the club i was here you were at the cellar and i was at the cellar i was hosting the lounge that we heard that a conversation happened

between jeff someone came up and told me like you're not going to believe this i was like bet you i do and told me what had happened what happened where did it happen first I don't even know where it happened apparently at the stand when Jeff Singer was holding auditions allegedly this is I don't know what the legal any of this is but he was

he was talking to the wife of a well-known comic and or the domestic partner the significant other of a lesbian couple, a lesbian couple. And that matters. Go ahead. No, no, no. But the significant other use, you know, was talking about something and words, something, something. The significant other was a black woman. Yes. Is a black woman was just talking about like, you know, she was just talking about people. And then Jeff mimicked what she said back at her and said, well, what what are blank N words or, you know, adjective N words? And he said the actual N word. And what's the adjective before the N word?

I don't know if it was like strong. And I literally it's it's not even on me. OK. And and I didn't go back and research it. It was in one year, but it was. So she then said, listen, I'm going to give you a pass this one time for saying it,

but you can't say that word back to black people, no matter what. And he said, why not? And then he said it again. And at that point, the person who told me this story grabbed Jeff and was like, don't say this anymore.

And he said it again. And then two black comics that we know came in and they started to sort of massage him to not say it. And he said it again. Male comics this time? One male, one female. The reason I ask is I'm wondering, just like trying to I think people want to just get the picture, you know, like with men is a threat of maybe of a physical intimidation. you don't know what's going on. But it wasn't. Everyone was sort of like, yeah, everyone was sort of brushing his hair

about this, which is why I was like, no one's going to say anything, are they? What do you mean by brushing his hair about this? Like, they were like, Jeff, you really shouldn't. Like, Jeff, it's not great. You know what I mean? As opposed to like, what the fuck are you doing? They didn't want to say what they would really say because of his position.

They didn't want to alienate him. That's exactly right. His station sort of people, people very rarely talk truth to power. They just don't. But were any of these people themselves powerful? By, by, you know, to a certain extent, by virtue of his hand, they have enjoyed some success. Like the three people who talked to him have all been featured by him. But one of them is kind of famous, right? I would say I would say two of them are famous. OK, so they don't need Jeff Singer anymore. Not anymore. Right. So in

other words, they could speak. They could they could they could tell him where to go without worrying about their career. I actually don't think they can. I think that the, the act of being a troublemaker does close doors. It closes more doors than it opens. And I don't think that any of them were interested in rocking the boat in that way. It didn't, it doesn't behoove them to do it.

Okay. So, so you heard this story and then you took to Twitter and you, what? I, I literally was in the bathtub before having to come here and host five hours of shows. I was I was running late and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to dash this off. And I wrote it in 10 minutes and I hit send. I it was not right. There wasn't a lot

of calculation or guile or agenda behind what I wrote. I just wrote what I wrote and what did you write? What did you write? I wrote that, you know, there's a guy who has been gatekeeping in in my job for a very long time. And, you know, approval and adulation along the way make a big difference on who you end up getting to be in this job. And, you know, this is when I auditioned for him, the first time I auditioned for him, this is now 13 years ago. He said, oh, you know, I've seen, he's like, I've seen gay before.

You're not special. I've seen gay before. And he's said a lot of stuff to my peers over time that were minimizing and diminishing and just sort of boiling people down to their their lowest sort of stereotype. A very famous comedian was passed on by him a while ago because he was just another black guy from New York. Like this guy has the there was an impunity to his, you know, his filter for. I think we can say who that was

because it's been public now. He had a third set up by Michael Che, right? Yeah. That's crazy. And then later on, he had to eat Crow and Che from the stories. And I got sent so many stories,

which I really didn't want to put myself in the poll position in this one. Do you know what I mean? But that's how it played out. So now these responses are available on Twitter. You can look them up. And then there was a series of stories where he commented on women's outfits,

that you shouldn't wear this. We're not going to book you if you wear high boots. I couldn't publish a lot of the stuff that I was sent because I thought that it would, you know, it would embroil me in a way that would be damaging, even more long-term damaging to his career. And I think maybe exposed me to a certain degree of liability. Like, I could say this is what someone sent me, but I can't say...

I mean, if you go on Twitter and put in the search bar Jeff Singer, you'll see a lot of, or a fair amount of commentary. Certain female comics have said, well, he told me not to wear this outfit on stage. He literally said, if it isn't a brassy black woman or or a girl, I want to fuck. I don't give a shit. She's now when you say literally so that how you know he said that that was it was sent to me as a story. And then I talked to the person who brought in the female comic who is now also doing great. And and it was corroborated.

Now, all this could be true. We don't know what he said. We have to say that we, you know, this is, he's saying we can't say for sure that he said these things now, but the proof is in the pudding. When you look at the people that he has booked at the Montreal Comedy Festival,

is there reason to believe that he does discriminate against women by their appearance or because he doesn't want to fuck them? I don't doubt that he's motivated by a certain marketability. I mean, like, you know, he's he's responding to an industry and what it casts and what works. And in general, people who are lean or fuckable do tend to get more work. That is, I mean, telegenic. Right. If you're if you want to be on television, it doesn't hurt that. So then you can you say that it's wrong that he has those criteria? I think that it's really it's a matter of being incredibly limiting.

And I think it's about like the spirit that it comes from, like the fish rots from the head down. And if this is a job that is trying to represent people who are good at this job, there are people who are perfectly good at this job who this kind of chauvinist he stood in the way of their progress. So let me just say, by the way, I don't know that being fuckable is that significant in the winners and losers and people who become successful in comedy. I don't I don't think that's really the case. Roseanne Barr, Rosie O'Donnell. But again, these are these are big, brassy ladies who don't who aren't in the middle space. Joan Rivers. I mean, there's just a lot of women who, you know, I think it's a fact. Who are the middle space people who are not who are sort of like it's not that they're unfuckable.

It's not that they're like, you know, out and out repugnant. You know what I mean mean like as in who's just like a normal looking lady who does comedy i mean i will look at it from the opposite point of view which is who is killing and is not getting uh the the gigs you know that i mean i usually people when they bring the house down they move move up in it. And there are people who only ever provide middling comedy, but they're lean and they they do. They they are absolutely at the table. Listen, I mean, it's getting into territory where there are names I could mention of women that I think were they not attractive, probably wouldn't be where they are. But I don't want to go there because.

But it's it's not just that. But I could name men as well that if they didn't look a certain way, probably wouldn't be where they are. I mean, they were too old all the time and then straight up had 38 year old men on on new faces. This is the the the the double standard is it's demonstrable and measurable in space, time and distance. There's no I mean, there is, by the way, no. If you ask for a name, there's someone that's doing fairly well, but not as well as the level of killing that she brings to the table. And that would be Jessica Curson. Jessica Curson is not a does not have millions of Instagram followers

and does not have, you know, million dollar movie deals and so on and so forth. And she's killing as hard as anybody now. So what accounts for that? I don't know. I can't say what accounts for that, but I can, I can, I, what I can say is that there's not a one-to-one correspondence between level of killing and level of success. Sure. I mean, Mara, would you, would you, would be in accord with that? That statement?

I mean, so this is the other thing I've now had two weeks since I did this goofy thing, since I fired this bullet to actually consider. Yeah. Well, we should get to the end of the story. So what happened is,

so you put this out and put this out in the world. I, uh, I, my, I had a, an infection that I had to take antibiotics for, so I couldn't drink.

And I came to the cellar. I took mushrooms. I worked all night. I hosted five hours of shows, went home. The story developed. My inbox was full. The next night, he didn't show up to auditions for JFL. And the next day after that, he announced his resignation.

So I fired a bullet. And he hired you. No. What did he write in his resignation? He didn't take ownership of the crazy stuff that he's said and done to comics over the years. He just said, I used a word I shouldn't have. And there's room for me to grow. And he resigned. And so really like the part where

I called him out for dropping N-bombs left and right, which was, you know, by itself, it was enough to to have him put out to pasture. But it was really like so many people responded like, fuck this guy. They like had it just been the N-word and his reputation had been pristine other than that, I think he could have gotten bigger. He could have said, I was blackout drunk, I'll be honest with you. I think he could have slipped through if his reputation had been impeccable other than that. I'm sure JFL doesn't want all the stories out there. The founder of JFL just got acquitted for rape in December.

And then that's charming. It's charming. And then so I'm sure JFL wanted to cauterize this wound as quickly as possible. And if they really wanted to keep him, they would have preserved him. You know what I mean? If the idea of like one comic who doesn't do that much television work firing a bullet. That didn't have to be a kill shot. Somebody else made that a kill shot. I didn't. That's I don't know.

People have been people and fired across industries for less fame. Well-established journalists, whatever. So I have his resignation here. I was at a comedy club having a conversation with some people and I made a huge error in judgment. I asked a question and repeated it back a phrase that someone said, and it was completely wrong to do that. There was no malice when I said it, nevertheless, it was a hundred percent wrong and I should have known better immediately. Clearly it was insensitive and I deeply regret it to that.

And I submitted my resignation to just for last over the weekend. I have learned from this experience. We'll make sure it never happens again. I sincerely apologize privately to the ones directly affected. I apologize to anyone else. I offended that night for my thoughtless words. I am imperfect and will take away everything I can from this to do better. That's what he wrote. They hired a good publicist to write that. Well, I don't know. I think Jeff is capable of writing that of saying do better. I bet that's not his spirit, man. A guy who's like if it's not a big, brassy black chick or a girl, I don't know. I think Jeff is capable of writing that. Of saying do better? That's not his spirit, man. A guy who's like, if it's not a big, brassy black chick

or a girl I want to fuck, I don't give a shit. Someone who says that does not carry the spirit of, I want to do better. That is, it is dog shit. It is language of the moment. It is, it's coward. Well, you're saying he's insincere or you're saying he didn't write it? It is like, the idea that he didn't vet that through anyone, that that wasn't a massage statement is that's naive. And then can I tell you what I think about this?

Just so first of all, what you're describing is a big, grassy black ship chick and a girl like to fuck. You know, this is why somebody ought to be fired, because, I mean, that's the low hanging fruit. Right. What you're saying is like he's saying, like, if I can't get the typical cliche act that everybody knows is easy. Well, really, do we need to put someone who can, you know, identify a tree right in front of his face in charge of us? like you would hope that somebody doing this thing would be the kind of person who has a subtle open mind insight that he can pick out the 30% of the acts. But no, no, no. That's so good. But no, we have to look at the people he's booked to see if that was just bluster or

if he really booked on that. OK, I don't know that, but I'm just yeah, that's right. But just but just to go based on his own words, cause you just don't say stuff like that. Now I'm, and this is not unique to Jeff Singer. We've heard stories about almost every other frigging club sometime about these bookers drunk with power, drunk with their own insight, as it were, just like pontificating and telling people what's wrong with them and whatever it is. And, and basically half the famous acts we know have a story about some booker

who told them they'd never make it, right? Mitzi Shore told Gary Shandling, I don't hire writers. I hire performers. Oh, my God. This kind of thing. Daryl Hammond was told he'd never make it. Michael Che was. I mean, these stories go again and again and again.

So that's why you want to be fired. I would never hire a booker like that. No, no, I don't need a booker who can identify big tits and a brassy chick. You know, I don't need you to tell. I need a booker who can get an algorithm for that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I need a booker who's able to see the funny and a quirky thing, who can see a diamond in a rough. Like that's what you what you want. And a booker who also trusts the audience, whatever. So it's this famous story. But it's important. It's very apropos here when early on in his career, we had a meeting. My father was there and he heard that David Tell was bombing all the time.

He says, says, no more David Tell. And then Julia Waller, who was this very, very bright, funny waitress who worked there at the time, my father deeply respected, says, no, no, Manny, you don't understand. He's a genius. And my father said, OK, hold off on that. Because he trusted Julia's insight. He said, well, if Julia thinks so highly of this guy, let's just hold off a minute. And sure enough, in short order, he became the full David Tell. But that's

what you wanted a booker. David Tell wasn't somebody you wanted a booker. David Tell wasn't somebody with big tits. David Tell was actually a unique talent, right? So that's why I should be fired. Now, what he got fired for, and this is where I kind of may not agree with you, and you may not even agree with yourself, which is that this is a private conversation and, um, people make a mistake in a private conversation.

It's not like, I mean, he had the, he had the, he was dumb enough to say the N word and then double down on it in a conversation with some black people. But on the other hand, he was doing it in good faith. And none of those black people took him to task for the record. Yeah, but I'm saying he was doing it in good faith in the sense that he wasn't doing it behind people's backs. He wasn't doing it in a conversation with white people only. He was ready to say, listen, friends, I this I think it's OK that this. And they say, you're a jackass. You can't say that.

But in the end, the whole argument is a private conversation. And I'm uncomfortable with somebody being fired for a private conversation, especially when the people on the other end of the conversation were not the ones who thought. Him telling me that I was him telling me that, you know, I've seen gay before. That was technically a private conversation. You can say that. Him telling older female comedians that, like, honestly, you're too old. But I think what Mehran is saying is that that's not what got him fired. I don't think that's what got him fired.

It's clearly what, read his resignation. No, but that was just the easy out. him fired. I don't think he got fired. It's clearly read his read his resignation. But that was just the easy out. It was a disqualifying. He got there. He got fired. By now, he was finally accountable for years and years. I don't look I don't know what drove him to resign or what drove Montreal to tell him he's got to resign. I, I don't think we can say for a fact that hat again, as I said earlier, that had, he said the N word, but none of that,

but his reputation was otherwise impeccable. I'm not convinced that he, that he would have left JFL, that he would have been pressured to resign. He would have had his reputation been otherwise impeccable, but you think he would, would have been. If,

if Mike wasn't in McNeil from the times had to resign the head of netflix there have been black people had to resign from jobs because they said the n-word uh recently you cannot say that that is true and i i can't dismiss it but again your reputation hunter biden apparently said the n-word and and probably that's okay however but but uh well at least he showed his dick. Yeah. But listen, this is, this is my thing. If you, if you and I may round had a conversation about Israel, Palestine, Jews and you, whatever. And you said something that really fucking offended me and we were screaming at each other. It really offended, but you know, I know you all this time. And, and, and it's like, that's our conversation. You felt, you felt you could be, you could, you could say whatever it is that you thought to me, you all the time. And, and, and it's like, that's our conversation. You felt, you felt you could be, you could,

you could say whatever it is that you thought to me, you felt the relationship could handle it. And I, and I got mad. And then somebody overheard us and then you got fired for making anti-Semitic remarks. I would say, you know what? That's, he was talking to me. He was talking to me and I didn't like what he said, but it's between me and him. That's what I would say. Yeah. Yeah. I, and I, I wouldn't like what he said, but it's between me and him. That's what I was. Yeah. And I wouldn't discount that.

I wouldn't discount that. I would say that, again, what I wrote was a 10 minute post. What happened to the ensuing two days? What it snowballed at such a rate that I it was out of my hands the minute Jen Kirkman retweeted it. Like the instant it, like I have like 4,000 followers. I don't have like this incredibly broad social media reach. I have integrity as a performer, as someone who does this job, but I don't have, I don't have this kind of like power or authority that would would actually do this. I absolutely snitched on this guy. I like there's no question that what I did was snitching. And I like I'm not going to put lipstick on it and I'm not.

But if there was not even especially noble. No, but if there was nothing behind it, I mean, it sounds like there were 20, 30, 40, 50 people who were saying, yeah, this guy has done terrible things. Thank you. Like even people who came and I knew that it was going to happen as soon as he like got fired and it escalated quickly. I was like, I'm next. A bunch of people are going to come out of the woodwork and and drag me for existing. And it's not like I'm a Buddhist. You know what I mean? I've absolutely like there's a trail of corpses that leads to my door to all of ours.

Everybody, anybody who lives in the world, I think, has a trail of corpses, except for that's a good title for a trail of corpses. Trail of corpses. But, you know, I I I knew that that was going to happen. Yeah. Uh, I told my brother, I was like, I fired a bullet. I didn't know it was going to be a kill shot. He's like, it sounds more like a murder suicide.

And then I just hold myself at it like with a dynamite vest. Well, the question is, is in terms of whether it's a kill shot, whether he reemerges in some other capacity. And I don't know, you know, I don't know where he would necessarily go at this point. I mean, you know, the the job skill of being able to book comics. There's only so much so many places you can go with that. And if his reputation is sufficiently tarnished, who knows whether he'll he'll he'll pop up in the industry in some in some capacity i mean he may end up booking a comedy club we could see him booking one of the comedy clubs here in new york i don't know who's going to hire him after this

um i do feel bad for him i i you know i swear to god i do i think he might be finished in the business which is a big, big, big thing. You know, without getting into whether he deserves it, I feel bad for any almost anybody that's. That's been destroyed. We think he's destroyed. Well, I don't know. I bet you dollars for donut. He fails up. It's not like he said these comments about like fuckable women and brassy black chicks like in a vacuum. He said it in front of a group of men who didn't who didn't call him to task the minute he said it.

Like there are. Yeah. But now that he's been out, there are coteries of these men now. But now that he's been out and he's he's he's toxic so that even just because you might agree with him doesn't mean you want to go on record as supporting him. A lot of people have been deemed toxic. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know, Jeff. And so I'm just speaking sort of generally. I mean, it seems like there is something about being accountable. What ever stopped you before? Go ahead. Exactly. No, but I think that no, really, I don't know him. And this isn't anything against him personally. I'm really speaking as like general commentary to what's going on. And there does seem to be something here about having to be fucking accountable for your bad behavior. To an extent. And also like the guard at some point.

Why are you rolling your eyes? Other than that, I'm talking. This this word accountability is it sounds good in theory but it's terrifying this this it is isn't it I mean you you I think I'm agreeing with what you said no you said that that

behavior oh you is not so many people have tried to get Jeff fired over the years the number of people who wrote me to thank me personally they were like I've been complaining to JFL for years about this guy. Yakety yak, you know, this is,

and so, and they're writing to thank me. And for the record, I don't see this as a personal triumph in any way. I just like that. There is, there is a degree of equanimity. No,

you were about to explain why accountability. It sounds good, but it's scary. Because the mob is so often incorrect. Like we don't really know what was said at that table. There might be some part of that conversation that was left out. I mean, this is not the way you,

we want people's, you might have a family. We know of people who were held accountable, who did nothing wrong. Yeah. I mean, what did this dredge out here? Perfect example. So this, this whole thing dredged up. So let me, let me, let me, there's Lara, Lara, Lara Baslin.

Yeah. Oh, great. She could come plug her book. I wanted to read the book first. Well, Lara. Oh, hi. I haven't read it. Oh my God.

She was on tonight. I thought Eve barlow was on tonight that's fantastic i'm always happy to see lara well i know i'm just finish your thought and we'll get to a lara so first of all the the notion what would what would offend i would never hire a booker who said i already have gay that actually is much more offensive to me in well it's offensive in a different way in quite a different way than having an argument with some black people about whether what you when you think a white person can and can't say the N word. Because as I said, as misguided as you might think he is in that position, it was a good faith

conversation that he was having. I've had a similar conversation without saying the word, but I've had a similar conversation with charade and i you know this was a an issue that people were talking about i don't know why he insisted on saying it and then doubling down but but anyway but to say i already have gay that's you know how you can't have a booker who says that i think you know no you you can't have credibility but this is the thing but from that what dredged up what what re what reemerged on Twitter? Guy Branum talking about me. Right. All over again. I mean, I'm being he's saying that I don't hire gays and trans people at the comedy. Right. And thank God. Thank God. Mayron. God bless. I want to give a big kiss on the lips.

I mean it, Mayron. He defended me like he he bled comedy. So I shouldn't even say it was out of loyalty to comedy. So I think it was out of loyalty to the truth, frankly. I hope it was. It was. But this guy, this was also the stupidest thing anyone could do in that moment. I mean, there's exactly the point. This is the idea of accountability. Now, I'm my own boss, so I can't get fired. Right.

But what if I'm not my own boss? And this guy is out there saying all this nonsense about stuff. He literally, he's never been in the comedy cellar. He doesn't know. We had gay comedian after gay comedian, tell him to his face that for years, the comedy cellar was the only room that always hired gays that didn't care that everybody was out of the closet like you know like exactly exactly the the opposite of what he decided to write we were

and yet he's still out there saying it right but the truth came out which is that you know everybody said that no that's not true and so it was that was the truth. And so you had nothing to worry about. You know, like like stupid people who believe in him and listen to him. They he got like 40 likes out of it. But that was the thing that I knew as soon as this thing escalated, that people were going to come out of the woodwork to sort of co-opt the moment and the attention of it to to sort of air their grievances either about me let me interrupt you mayron because you know and you know this guy had the nerve to say he tried to make mayron out as like i don't know what how you change your name to make it funny to be a gay thing but into an uncle tom yeah an auntie an auntie to me i think i think an

interesting question that perry i'll hit on is whether or not a accusation with little or no basis can get traction on social media. For example, if somebody accused Ryan Hamilton of sexual assault, it likely wouldn't get traction. Oh, if somebody accuses me of sexual, I'd like it is the audit I have been waiting for my entire life. Like the degree to which I do not molest my male peers is the audit. I have been waiting for my whole life. That's what I'm saying. No, that's the, I can verify that. I don't know that Mehran sexually harasses his peers or not. I do know that he he's at a minimum, not attracted to me,

but you know, and maybe if he were, it would be different. peers or not, I do know that he's at a minimum not attracted to me. But you know, and maybe if he were it would be different, I don't know, but I've heard only good things about Mehran. I haven't had a lot of safe sex in my life. Not a lot. And it was before all this prep shit, I would just roll the dice, do you know what I mean? It was really about letting a stranger almost kill you. Friend! Only three times in my entire sexual career have I used a condom. Same condom. That, yes.

Are you kidding me? That's the magic. Do you know what I mean? You find them in the works, that's your lucky, right? You keep it in an ornamental wooden box by the bed and anytime you're going to get raw dog, you knock on that thing for good luck. Should we introduce Lara Bazelon? Yes, please. Lara Bazelon, we're going to give you an introduction that you deserve.

She's a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law. That's pretty good before that she was a trial lawyer in the office of the federal public defender of los angeles and a and she's a writer look at this a good mother is her debut legal thriller and of course thrillers are big big big sellers big sellers you know. The last thing you want to write is a literary piece about, you know, I don't know. But, you know, like David Copperfield type stuff. That you don't want to write in terms of selling books. Anyway, the courtroom scenes are sharp and suspenseful. The twists in the plot are unexpected.

And the tension ratchets up until we are truly eager to find out what happens. Who said that? You sent me that blur, but you didn't say who said it. That's actually Jeff Singer. Can I just it was actually in the New York Times book review last week. Wow. Who reviewed Sarah Lyle, L-Y-A-L-L. Well, if Sarah Lyle L Y A L L. Well, if Sarah Lyle said that the courtroom scenes are sharp and suspenseful, you can take it right to the bank. She knows what's up.

So can I say about Lara Baslett? Has anybody seen this show on Netflix? The good place. Of course. Okay. So I just, my, my,

my eight year old daughter just. That's with Ted Danson. Yeah, and then my nine-year-old daughter has made me watch the first two episodes this morning. Lara Baseline is going to the good place when she dies, okay? Amazing. This woman is getting, and we don't agree on probably more than a number of things,

but she has dedicated her life to getting, um, misfortunate people guilty and innocent actually, uh, uh, to be treated fairly, uh, and without racism and without cruelty by the, by the government, no doubt passing up a lot of money that she could be making, um, defending the mafia or something. And, um, she also has been brave by speaking out against people within her own party that she felt were skating by. And if you see her Twitter, you can see that the degree to which the way she defends her

clients is so heartfelt and seems to read it between the lines of the Twitter feed messes with her emotionally in a deep way that it makes it hard for her to take her mind off it. I have no doubt. Wait, wait, and yet and yet finds the time to write a friggin novel

to write a novel. I could I couldn't write a novel with all the time given to me in the world. You can give me 20 years. I couldn't come up with a nice break, though, from her. Well, but anyway, I have no doubt that everything you say is true. However, I don't think she's going to the good place. I think like every other person, she will she will fade into an eternity of nonexistence.

Also, spoiler alert, the good place is the bad place, please. Oh, so I don't believe in life after death, but she should enjoy her time here. Do you have a do you have a ready to go encapsulation of your of your book that you can give us to our audience to intrigue them? Sure. OK, so it's a book about a 19 year old mother who stabbed her husband to death on an army base. And I'm not giving anything away because that happens in the first two pages. She recounted in a 911 call right after it happened. The issue is whether she premeditated

and did it in cold blood or whether she was in fear for her life and in fear for their infant daughter's life because her husband was a jealous, abusive drunk. And she's extradited to California to stand trial. And her public defender has a baby, basically her baby's age. They're both these new moms. And the public defender leaves her baby, cuts her maternity leave short, goes to try this case and all hell breaks loose. That's basically how I would sum it up. Wow. Sounds pretty good. A lot of commentary on motherhood and what it means to be a good mother because both of their personal lives implode. There's another lawyer who gets a little bit too involved with the client, the judge is an odious, racist, sexist pig who stirs up drama. There's a third shadow lawyer

kind of behind the scenes and things that you don't. How many pages is it roughly? It's not that long. It's less than 300 pages. You can read it. You're supposed to read a lot to squeeze into less than 300 pages. I got really good at cutting things because I wrote another novel with the same people that I couldn't sell. And I think my my the way that I understood that was that it was just too long. So every single time I wrote something and I thought, is this advancing the plot? And the answer was no, I cut it. So I just was really, really ruthless about editing. Well, that's the sweet spot. I'm told they like, uh, you know, if it's too long,

people don't want to read it. And if it's too short, people don't think they're getting their money's worth. So about 300 pages, I'm actually a actually a good mother i'm just i just called it up here on uh amazon are you buying it amazon because i'll buy it i bought it already i haven't read it yet a good mother a novel so far 72 reviews well how to what extent can you judge a book's if at all a book's uh sales by the amount of reviews, Lara? What's the correlation between how many reviews you get and how many books you've sold, if any? I'm not sure. That's a really good question. I mean, I tend to think that if your book has 10,000 Amazon reviews, it's probably number one on the New York Times bestseller list. I think if your book has one or two reviews,

probably it's like number 1 million. And then the rest of us near mortals have to fall somewhere along that spectrum. And you sort of hope mine came out last month, that it gains traction and picks up momentum and more people read it and more people write reviews. You kind of have to just play. I think the long game. Dan, Dan, move over to your left a little bit. You're on your half of your, by the way, I read, this is semi-related because to your left a little bit. You're half of your... By the way, I read...

This is semi-related because it's about a murder. I just read a book about... It's called Why We Sleep. And it's a book all about sleep and the importance of sleep. And apparently, there is somebody, a sleepwalker in Canada, that killed, I think it was his mother-in-law, with a knife and got off scot-free because they determined he was sleepwalking at the time.

You literally have a person in the middle of a scandal and an author at your access. And you're recounting this author as his lawyer. God bless you. God bless you, because exactly what I was thinking. Lara, so tell me. That's a fascinating

anecdote. A guy got off scot-free from murder because he was sleepwalking. Lara. And Lara's an attorney. Okay, it's not like I'm fucking talking about, you know, a Truscan pottery here. Can we talk a little bit about her book? Lara. Yes. My question.

How many people in your personal life are going to read this book and say she's writing about me? God damn it. I know who she's referring to here. So I hope I hope very few. It's funny. I do have like one funny story, though, about that, which is the the protagonist who's this public defender. And I used to be a public defender. Protagonist means like the hero in the story. She's a public defender. And I used to be a public defender. Protagonist means like the hero in the story. She's a public defender. And I was talking about a murder trial. Completely irrelevant.

Totally irrelevant out of left field. I think out of the two of us, I'm the other one who's published two books. Okay. I'm pretty sure I know what a protagonist is, but thank you. Go ahead. Go ahead,

Larry. So, well, first of all, people think that she is me because I used to have that job and I used to live in LA, but the story that I was going to say is actually in the book, she has her partner. They don't get married, but she's with this guy and they have a baby together. And I based that guy, I based that guy off this, off this U S Marshall,

who I had a crush on when, when I was a public defender. And I, I just sort of used him as my inspiration for the character. But what's kind of funny about that is I don't think that anybody would remember. I mean, my, my, my colleagues would make fun of me. Cause I would like, it was one of those weird crushes where you get like bright red and your heart starts pounding uncontrollably when the person walks in the room and there's no rhyme or reason for why you feel that way. So they would make fun of me, but I don't think anybody would remember. But weirdly, the guy that I married, not in iteration number one, but in iteration number two, after he went bald and shaved his head and got LASIK surgery and didn't wear glasses anymore,

ended up looking just like this Marshall. So then weirdly, like on the back end, it looked like my ex-husband. So then I just had to completely change how this guy looked. By the way, Noam is the guy that shoehorns Asians at Harvard into every conversation. Mehran said it. Why are you blaming me? Mehran is the one who said it. You nodded your head vigorously. Okay. Okay. Wait, Lara, can I ask you a question? Yes.

I'm imagining that you had to vet that book with like in-house counsel, right? You know, I didn't because it was it was made up. I mean, it was it was based on a case that two of my colleagues tried. But I changed so many of the facts like the two people who actually tried the case bear no resemblance to the two lawyers in the book. Zero, none. And I changed enough about the actual case that I think it was fictitious. And so I didn't need to get anybody's permission. If I had written a true story about like my time at the public defender and this was this case and blah, blah, blah, then I would have had to do a lot. I don't know. Did you write fiction or nonfiction?

Nonfiction. And I was, you know, taken to task by the, you know, in-house counsel. Lara in a, in a, in a sea, in an absolute vast ocean of thrillers, how are you going to make this book shoot to the top of the bestseller list? I mean, obviously, Gnome is my secret weapon. I just assume that he is going to have me on the show and then I'll wake up tomorrow and, you know,

it'll be like Christmas, except that I'm Jewish. But if I did celebrate Christmas, it would be like that. And my Christmas present up tomorrow and you know, it'll be like Christmas, except that I'm Jewish. But if I did celebrate like that and my Christmas, you know, that I had sold the movie rights. No, I don't know. I mean, I think the way I always do things, which is that I just have a bunch of, I just hustle as much as I can and hope for the best and then try again later. Now, what about the first step of course, is to write a taught.

That's how they always describe books, by the way, in reviews taught pitch perfect. Those are a couple of phrases that they use they love to say tot tot always makes me think of like celebrities after plastic surgery like sure that's what i think somebody i'm going to introduce you to i think she might be able to um help the skyrocket i'll message you after awesome now what about what about a movie deal? I would like to let Sheridan on the cover. It's you know, I thought it was I thought it was Lori Loughlin. Oh, my God.

That's hilarious. And it looks like Nicolette Sheridan. I mean, I thought I was like, wow, that kind of looks like Lori Loughlin. I wonder if anyone will think that. But no one has thought that. Alifair Burke liked the book. Alifair Burke did like it. She wrote a blurb, a high stakes legal thriller packed with intense courtroom drama.

How important are blurbs, by the way? You have to go hunting for them. I think people invest a lot in them, but I'm not really sure how much in the end they actually matter. I mean, I guess I'll turn that back to you. Have you ever bought a book because of the blurb? I have not unless subliminally it played in my head, but no. Who gives the endorsement matters?

I have, but that was back when I'd go to like Walden Books and look through a book and the blurbs would be at the top. But now that I buy books on Amazon, the blurbs are far less. The blurbs are important. I've told you that like 500 times. Well, Lara Bazelon doesn't necessarily think that. No, no, no. She may not think so, but it's on the cover of her book.

So obviously the publisher disagrees. Right. So what do you think? I mean, do you think that like people kind of browsing the bookstore are like, okay, Scott Turow loved this book. I'm going to give it a chance. I think that that might be an added benefit, but I don't think that that I don't trust that Scott Thoreau actually read the damn thing. Well, he probably didn't, but that's not the point. I don't think that's the function that

blurbs serve or why they're necessarily important. That's probably an added benefit, though. The publishers want to see the blurbs. Yes. If you read any book written by a comedian, the blurbs are almost always written in a way that doesn't indicate that the person actually read the book. Well, I think you're right that a lot of times they didn't read the book. And I think there's kind of a shell game to publishing. Publishing is really fascinating. We could have a whole show on it, which is that I feel like nobody really knows what the secret recipe is to create a bestseller, particularly for someone who's unknown. So what you end up getting is publishing houses betting heavily on certain people, either because they're established like Tom Clancy or because they're seen as these sort

of up and coming stars. And they put a tremendous amount of marketing effort behind those books and they push them, push them, push them. And then most of the books they buy, they don't try that hard to sell. Um, and they hope that that's kind of the magic formula. I'm happy. You didn't go to the way of, uh, what's his name? Um, John Kennedy O'Toole. Is that his name? The guy, the guy who wrote, um, Confederacy of Dunces. Yeah. He tried to sell his book everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. He got turned down, turned down, turned down, then killed himself. And then the book became one of the, you know, most, have you ever read that

book? No. Have you read a Confederacy of Dunce? You know what? I'm I've been paused at like 80% through that book for a few. Same, same. But I feel like Confederacy of Dunce is an also infinite jest or two of these books that are like you know 20 late 20th century classics that only white straight men actually read like i don't know a woman who's read infinite are you questioning my sexuality you said you didn't finish it but has a man ever read when the crawdad sings i mean right i mean it's but it's interesting have you ever parallel have you ever met a man who's like wow i loved infinite jest Infinite Jest, David Foster Wallace's book. I just thought it was amazing.

You mean a woman? A woman, sorry. I've seen men who keep it on their coffee table. Yeah. David Foster Wallace, I don't know. David Foster Wallace and I went to the same creative writing program, actually. No, I'm a protagonist. I did read

this year, I talked about podcast, I did read Crime and Punishment. And boy, is it good. Yeah. I mean, they are not overrating me. I mean, this is deep.

This is deep writing in touch with life in a very serious way. What made you pick it up now? Because I don't have that much time to read. And I, and I said to myself, I'm not going to read books. I really should read the classics. And it seemed interesting. And so I read it, you know, but it, it, it really enthralled me. And after that, I decided to read something later. So I stephen king's the stand i read that over too and then i

started reading confederacy of dunces and i got stalled so i've been reading some other stuff with me some non-fictionist stuff but i said i i kind of been paused on reading in general but for a while i was reading i i know i also decided that i was going to read books that you're supposed to read. And so I tackled David Carverfield after a hundred pages. I threw it down. Did you actually throw it out? I threw it. I didn't want it in my house.

I couldn't believe what I, I said a hundred pages. I said, this has got to be a gag. If you think David Copperfield is a tough read, you should try Bleak House, which is about three times as long. Now, what about Ulysses? Have you read Ulysses? No, my older sister read Ulysses and she read it with kind of a guide, like a guide to reading Ulysses. And she said that was the way to do it. But I just don't have the fortitude. And I feel embarrassed to say that. What about

Moby Dick? I read that one. I read Moby Dick. I didn't love it, but I liked it. I read Moby Dick. Have you read Moby Dick, Noam? No, no. The book that I my favorite classic, the first word, my favorite book that I was supposed to read in school, but never did and read later was The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. That's a great book. That I really enjoyed for whatever reason. I'm not even sure why I really enjoy it. I'm not even sure it had to do with the writing. I think I just liked that topic.

I think I like people like falling into vats at the factories in the turn of the century. And just how grotesque and barbaric it was. I mean, it's crazy. I would say the book that I read, I enjoyed the most in my life ever reading. It was the world according to Garp. Wow.

That's a great book. I don't know if it was the age that I read it or whatever it was. I could not get enough of that book. I re and I had almost a photographic memory of it afterwards where then after immediately after that, I read hotel, New Hampshire, also by John Irving. I could not tell you the first thing that happened in that book. I have no recollection of it whatsoever. And I remember everything in the world, according to Garb, which is just somehow

neurologically interesting to me. But a world according to Garb is just such a good book, in my opinion. Yeah, it is. I 100% agree with you. And so is the Hotel New Hampshire. I like them both. Larry, you wrote a thriller. Did you write a thriller because you think that's the quickest way to the top of the bestseller list or because you enjoy thrillers? Wow. No. So the truth is I've always wanted to write a legal thriller, which sounds kind of strange if you think about the rest of my life. And so I've been trying to do it for 20 years and not succeeding, but that's basically the story of kind of all of my legal cases too, which is like, you have to go about 25 rounds and then just get back

up for the final time, kind of like Glenn Close in the bathtub. So when this one finally sold, they came to me and they were like, well, we assume that you want to use a pen name because you're a law professor and you probably just want to protect your academic reputation. And I burst out laughing. I was like, I'm more proud of this than I am of anything except having my two kids. I absolutely want my name on it. I mean, it's way more meaningful to me than the 25 law review articles I had to write to get tenure, which I don't know, maybe my dad read.

So yeah, it's huge. What do you read legal thrillers for fun? I do. I'm I'm one of those total lame asses where all my hobbies have to do with crime. So like crime, crime, crime during the day. And then I go home and I watch, you know, Law and Order. And then I read a legal thriller. It's really lame and sad. Like you like. Go ahead. No, I was just going to ask if you like Jonathan and Faye Kellerman.

No, I don't. They, they're, they're, they're, they write like these legal thrillers. They're, they write together. They're, they're, they're, well, no, they're both authors separately. They're like wildly successful authors. And, you know, I don't know, they've probably written like 20 novels each. And I used to be obsessed with them,

but they're all legal thrillers. And do they write together as a team? Not usually. Yeah, that's always weird when there's two authors to a book. I mean, it's rare, but it happens that sometimes books are written by more than one person.

I think Bill Clinton just wrote a thriller with somebody else, right? I think so. Bill Clinton. Yeah, but that's usually, yeah. Bill O'Reilly writes a book. Exactly. And Bill O'Reilly's always killing people. It was cast on Beverly Hills 90210.

It was just, she went in under an anonymous name and she just acted. But didn't Jake Tapper write a book? Yes. Oh, yeah? He wrote he's written a couple of books. I think he wrote a legal thriller that was some kind of a historical fiction, something, something. And so did Stacey Abrams. She you know, she's she's Stacey Abrams. She basically won the election because of Georgia. And she just wrote a legal thriller called Well, Justice Sleeps. I mean, people have these different sides to their personalities, I guess. Well, William F. Buckley wrote many, many novels, like, like, like, I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah. This guy was, that's, that's just a gift. I have another question for you. So you have a sister, Emily, who's also a celebrated lawyer and writer. What is the secret of parenting that the Bazelons knew? What can I learn that I can perhaps get two children out of my three, even to both be celebrated professionals? The one you've given up on already. No, I'm just saying, I'll be happy to take two out of three, you know, I think. I think genetics play a big role. No, I'm so. Let's just see what's your, what's your, what did your parents do? Right.

Would you say that that is, is to, to, to to that you would attribute your success to you and your sister? I'm sure if you asked Emily and me, we would say that we would find all of the things to say that we feel like they did wrong. What I will say about my parents is that they were they had very, very, very high standards and they really believed believed in, in, in discipline and they weren't easily impressed. Like they weren't the kind of parents who were like, if you get an A, I'll buy you a car. They were like, we expect you to just get a bunch of A's and like, whatever. It sounds like a tiger mom. It sounds like a recipe for high achievement and low mental health. Yeah. But that's the thing. I mean, it was, it was like, well, we have a bunch of sisters. There's actually four of us and it was a very boisterous, loud, fun house.

But, but it was a, you know, it was kind of your classic East coast Jewish house, right? Like where they, you know, my parents would have like lived on the street for us to go to an Ivy league school and they would have, you know, they, we didn't have fancy stuff, but like they cared about, you know, taking us to museums. It's that kind of family. Right. So then you end up with those kinds of kids, I think. Yeah, I thought, are you, my thought is apropos of Noam's question, are you happy?

You know, weirdly, it took me so long to be happy. Like not until my forties, it took me so long. I think I was a pretty unhappy person for a long time, but I do not blame my parents. I think it's too easy to blame your parents. If you're still blaming your parents, like in your thirties and your forties, there's something seriously wrong with you. Unless, unless they, you know, really neglected or abused you, which

certainly was not my experience. I think the, um, the secret is this. So I had a very close friend of mine say to me when I was a new parent and she said, children rise to meet your expectations. It's very similar to what you said. And I've tried to keep high expectations for my kids. But I think the secret is that you have to not have an expectation that exceeds what they're capable of. That's what I think you really cause resentment. But if they are capable of, I'm sorry, go ahead, Laura. No, no, no, you go ahead.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think that if, if you do, if you are in touch, if you have the emotional intelligence in a way to know what your kids are capable of and you're demanding of them and then therefore they accomplish it, that's a healthy thing. They'll never resent you for that. It's when you, when you, when you, when they, when you force them to disappoint you, that's when you scar them, I think. So go, when they, when you force them to disappoint you, that's when you scar them, I think. So go ahead. Yeah, no, I think that's true. I guess the other thing that I feel like my parents gave all of us is this real sense that, you know, relative to other people, we had a lot of opportunities and that we should really just do the best we could to help other people. And that that was a way of finding satisfaction in life. Like you were kind

of saying, you know, that I had passed up on some opportunities to make a lot of money. And that's for sure true. I mean, I'm talking to you in my bedroom because that's where my desk is because my two kids and I live in a shoebox at San Francisco. And if I had worked at Paul Weiss and I was a partner now, we would be, well, I wouldn't be talking to you, right? I'd have not because, because you wouldn't have that person on. And I guess what I'm trying to say is like, I think that they really tried to instill in us that there was something bigger than you out there. And my parents were very focused on, on that in both of their careers. And so I think that was just kind of another way of, of maybe being a little bit less,

a little bit less self-centered and thinking, you know, if you can help other people, that that's a way to, of, of having fulfillment and being somewhat happy in life. Well, Lara, and I'll ask Dan the same question because we all went to law school. My experience in retrospect has been that the people I know who didn't go for the most high money jobs had the happiest lives. The people who made the most money were miserable. Most of the time, they never saw their kids. They, they, they, it was not the right choice. And I know, like I have my roommate in law school, uh, was, became a labor side, uh, union lawyer. And he doesn't make, you know, he makes decent living, but he didn't make the big money. And this guy has never had an unhappy day in his life because he feels like he's doing something worthwhile. He really believes in it. You'd be surprised to know that my, one of my best friends is kind of almost

a communist, Laura, but he is. And, and, and we're dear friends and he, and I, and I don't, when he talks about this union stuff, I don't like, I totally disagree with him, but it gives him a lot of satisfaction. It can't, it can't be gainsaid. It does. And what you do obviously gives you tremendous satisfaction, no? Yes. I mean, I think the reason why at this point I feel like a pretty happy person, and I'm afraid to say this because this will be over and I'll walk outside and a giant light fixture will fall on my head like a spider and squash me. But assuming that that doesn't happen, the reason why I feel like I've achieved a certain level of happiness is because I've gotten to a point in my career where I can basically, because I'm fortunate to have tenure, I can pick and choose the cases

that my students and I litigate. I can pick and choose the subjects that I write about. I can basically, hopefully, even in this chilly environment, say more or less what I want. And having that kind of freedom and that kind of a, I guess, platform, for lack of a better word, is more valuable to me than money. But I could also understand someone being in my position who really values things and thinking like, you know, why don't I have a bigger house or why don't I have three houses or why don't, and that stuff doesn't really matter to me, but if it did, I suppose I would be unhappy. Well, I want to dovetail on this. What? I want to dovetail on this because literally this is the common thread between us as Brady Bunch

Squares is that I'm married terrifically well and he works his tail off and you know I cheer up his life I think without me he would be miserable and with me he is too

it is very specifically the buffer, the padding of that, that lets me take the shot at Jeff Singer. Like the reason I was able to do that was because, listen, if they take everything away, I'm still with this guy who makes terrific money and we still have a terrific, happy family life.

It's the ability to really not have that much to lose that lets you take bigger shots. That is so true. And I'll say as someone who's traveled through income brackets in my life, there's been there's absolutely no correlation to when I started making more money to when I was more happy. Really? None? Zero whatsoever. My happiness has always correlated to when I had something, when I opened my eyes in the morning that was important to me that I wanted to accomplish, whether it was business-wise, arranging music, worrying about my children,

whatever it is, that's what it's been. And I just say one more thing because it's kind of interesting in this conversation. I can remember the exact instant when I decided I want to be a lawyer. I was a summer clerk in Los Angeles at a pretty important firm. And for those who don't know, when you're a summer clerk, it's usually after your second year in law school and you go to work at a law firm. And if they like you, they try to induce you to take a job with them after your third year. And this firm, their sales pitch was that after your seventh year of partner,

you get one year sabbatical to do whatever you want to do. Meaning after seven years of being, or eight years of being an associate, seven or eight years, plus seven years of being partnership, 14 or 15 years, you could then have a year to do whatever you really wanted to do. And I, and they were all, all these attorneys were living for this 15th year. And I grew up in a home where my father didn't spend five minutes ever doing something he didn't want to do. And I said, well, this is, this is absolutely not for me. I'm just not going to do it. And I called my father literally that day from the last house says, I don't think I'm going to do this. And he asked me, he said, well, this is absolutely not for me. I'm just not going to do it. And I called my father literally that day from Blosshouse. I said, I don't think I'm going to do this. And he asked me, he said, well, will you finish and take the bar?

And I said, I'll finish and take the bar. He says, and then do what you want because, of course, he was paying for everything. And it was a big disappointment to him. But anyway, so that was it. I never looked back. And Dan, you took the bar too and you didn't practice. Yeah, I took that. I was in a. And Dan, Dan, you took the bar, too. And you didn't practice. Yeah, I took I was in a bit of a different situation. I wasn't being courted by the big

law firms, you know, but but, you know, I mean, I so it was a bit different because I never really wanted to do it. And I never put a huge effort into law school because I was always had in the back of my mind that I was going to be a comic. I see. And I was so dumb that I thought I would have both the the fun job that I enjoyed and the money. And we should add that Mehran Mehran is an intellectual, too. He used to work for Larry Summers. I did. I used to write for Larry Summers.

I used to write in his voice. Wow. Wow. Wow. He was Clinton's Treasury Secretary and then is, you know, criticized, important Democrat

who criticized I will say to me the, the, the, the thing about show business over being a lawyer

that intrigues me is, is in show business you at least have the, doing stand-up, I at least have the chance of being great at something, like being recognized

as great at something. Whereas nobody ever says, you know something like being recognized as great at something whereas nobody ever says you know like your friend the labor lord nobody ever says oh did you see that that guy's case that he argued that labor oh that was i mean i guess some people say that but generally speaking lawyers uh they are not judged on the basis of how good they are the way the way comics are they're judged on the basis of how good they are, the way, the way comics are. They're judged on the basis of how much money they make. I think Dan, why did you go to law school? Did you think like you were just going to go to a law firm,

make a bunch of money. And then at night you were, I went to law school because I was pushed into it by parental figures, my parents, those are parental figures. Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. You know, and I figured I'd have it in my back pocket. The same reason, I guess, Noam's father wanted him to go and that Noam agreed to finish his thing. He'd have it in his back pocket. And I figured this way I'd be in New York City because I was at Fordham Law and I'd be able to do comedy on the side whilst being in law school, which, by the way, I didn't think was unpleasant. I enjoyed it well enough.

I liked law school too. I liked it a lot. I'm embarrassed to say that, but it was really interesting. You nerds. The study of law was interesting to me. The practice of the law was miserable. Criminal law is probably way more interesting, but corporate law, please. Well, I think the reason why I guess I've been a lucky lawyer in that most of the time

I'm not bored is because I think when you're defending people who are accused, who have no money and you're up against the government, you just have to be so wily and crazy and creative because the odds are completely stacked against you. So you just end up doing, just doing a bunch of wild things. And sometimes every once in a while you pull it off and it's like a miracle. I mean, I'll never forget the first time a jury came back, not guilty. I was 27 and I had beaten the federal government, like the United States government. I just, there's no, there's no feeling like that. Nothing, not, not, it's like nothing, nothing.

But, but what if your client actually is guilty? Do you still get a great feeling when it's the verdict is not guilty? Yes. In fact, it's funny. Actually, I'm going to go back to your sleep walking thing, Dan. I thought of you, this was my first case. My client was an accountant who had been accused of tax evasion because he had been caught up in that movement. Those people who believe that like the 16th amendment doesn't exist and they don't have to pay taxes, that they're sovereign citizens. Do you have to remember those people? They're, they're in this, I've heard of that sort of thing. So he truly believed it and stopped paying taxes and got indicted. And he got this instruction. It's called the cheek instruction named after the Supreme court case, which says,

if the person truly believes this, even if it's completely irrational to the average person, but if they have a genuine belief that they're part of this cult, then you have to find them not guilty. So they did. By the way that, that, um, you know, in this, we're living in a time now, it might be brief when, when the government is ready to spend money on things and, you know, there was this, um, these laws passed to, to get rid of bail that, that I was, you know, emotionally sympathetic to, but I don't know if they're working out so well,

that trade-off is, is, is difficult, but this is what I think would be a very good law. I think that when the government accuses somebody of something and forces them to spend a lot of money in legal fees, and it turns out that this person is innocent, the government ought to pay the person back. And I think there'd be a lot of support as a general matter from everyday people. It's like, cause I had a really good friend who was involved in another thing and the government seized a lot of his money and he had to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get his money back after they found

that they had no reason to take his money. I say, well, why should he, why they should not only give him his money, but they should pay his legal fees. The government has unlimited funds. They have a printing press. Once they could, can't they acknowledge, oh, this was a mistake as it were, we were in the wrong. So we're going to make you whole. That would be, I'm say is, well, we didn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. They're guilty. They're just not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt,

right? They'll stick to that till the end of time. I mean, sometimes they have to compensate people when they have been exonerated, right? After they've been wrongfully convicted and then years later, you finally overturn their conviction and get them out. In some states, they can get money. There are state laws that say like the city and the county of whatever will compensate you, but it's actually not even most states that do that. And it's not even that get money. There are state laws that say the city and the county of whatever will compensate you. But it's actually not even most states that do that. And it's not even that much money. It is awful. It's not proportionate to life loss. That's totally horrible. It is not proportionate remotely. Actually, it's weird too. New Jersey has a pretty good compensation statute. I think you get like, I don't know, 60 or 70K for every year that you've

been wrongfully convicted. And then in Pennsylvania, there's nothing. So you get zero. So, you know, you can be across the river, both wrongfully convicted. One of you gets compensated and one of you gets nothing. And then you put people in a situation where they have to sue and hope that they can jump over qualified immunity, which we could also have like a whole show about, which it's very hard to do because qualified immunity is there to protect government actors and hope that they win. And it's, it takes years. It's really brutal. Yeah. No, no. Do we just,

I'm just wondering whether we should wrap this up soon just to give you a. Yeah. I was going to try to find it. There was, there was this program, the treasury department where they were seizing people's money, supposedly who they suspected of structuring their bank deposits. But it came out that 90% of the seizures were of the money of people they knew to be innocent. But because the innocent were much less savvy, it was low-hanging fruit. And these people would get their money sold back to them, you know, 30 cents or 70 cents on the dollar, whatever it is, plus the legal fees. And finally, this program was shut down.

I'm going to send Lara the article in a second. But I mean, it's just when you read stuff like that, the outrage that the government, the outrage is that the government will really partake in, you know, it's just, it makes your head spin. With no apology ever. I do have to get a meal in before my intermittent fasting window closes. Well, it was great to be with all of you. It's a pleasure. I mean, really, I'm going to get your book. Is there a place that you prefer we bought it

other than Amazon? Whatever floats your boat. Do whatever you want. Are you selling it to your students in class? I think that they might yank my tenure for force feeding them a legal thriller that I wrote. I have to mention that I just got a text from Esty adding Friday.

Wait a minute. This is absurd. No, this is absurd. No, this is a 20. Yeah, Esty adding Friday. Wait a minute. It's absurd. No, this is absurd. No, this is a 20. Yeah. They're adding Friday.

My spots. Now, no, did you really contact her? No. Oh, Lara, when are you coming to New York?

Oh God. Hopefully in the fall. Can we all do a meet-up in person? I would love that. I really want to. Me too. Okay. This, okay.

I just want to say that this was a wonderful show. Thank you, Lara. Thank you. Yes. Thank you, Maran Kagani, for joining us as well. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Noah. It's a pleasure, Lara.

Questions, comments, suggestions, podcast at ComedySeller.com. And we'll see you next time. Thank you so much. Okay. Bye, everybody. Thank you for a pleasure there. Questions, comments, suggestions, podcast at comedy seller.com. And we'll see you next time. Thank you so much. Bye everybody. Bye everybody.