The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The Problem with Everything

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

Megan Daum and Erica Rhodes

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM, Channel 99, the comedy channel. We're here, as always, with my partner, Mr. Dan Natterman. Hello, Daniel. You typically don't introduce me as partner, but okay, how do you do? He's being obtuse. And Miss Perrielle Aschenbrand. It doesn't

sound right. Aschenbrand. It's every week. Perrielle Aschenbrand, what is your title? You're our producer? I'll tell you what her title is not. On-air personality. And we have two guests. Erica Rose got her start at

age of 10 on A Prairie Home Companion. She's also been on Bring the Funny on NBC, Modern Family, Veep, and At Midnight. Her recent album Sad Lemon made number one on iTunes. Wow. How come I don't know you?

Now you do. I didn't know her either, Noam, but I've been talking with her for the past several minutes and I find her quite interesting. And our kind of like guest of honor, Megum Daum. Megan Daum. Dom.

Yeah, and you know what? Megum is such a common mistake because the last name ends with an M. So they go Megum, even though that's not even a name. It was just a mispronunciation. No, I know, but it's interesting, actually. Sorry. Take two.

Megan, how do you, Dom? Yes, Dom, yes. But I swear I heard other people mispronounce it on. There's actually alternate pronunciations. We can talk about it, but it's not that interesting. Megan Dom is the author of six books. If Periel had been on time, we would have gone over the pronunciation. Megan Dahm is the author of six books.

Most recently, The Problem with Everything, My Journey Through the New Culture Wars. That's obtuse. That's obtuse? In that it's very wide. Wait, obtuse can be wide? More than a 90-degree angle is obtuse, right? So that's a very wide. Oh, an obtuse? It's very wide. Wait, obtuse can be wide? More than a 90-degree angle is obtuse, right? So that's a very wide. Oh, an obtuse angle.

I don't think the word is used that way in non-geometric context. But I think it could be. It would need to be inclusive. Her angle, what's your angle on things? I have an obtuse angle on things. I didn't get past ninth grade geometry. She's a Los Angeles Times opinion columnist. She was a Los Angeles Times opinion columnist from 2005 to 2016.

She has written for numerous magazines, including The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Atlantic, and Vogue magazine. Welcome, Megan. Okay, now Dan prepared a lot of questions for you, Megan. Well, I prepared a list of topics. But I have one question first. What is the problem with everything? Oh, that's an obtuse question. They're so so it is in the eye of the beholder. The problem with everything. To me, it's really like the thing that we think about, like the thing that you you're walking down the street at all times are sort of chewing on, like, what's wrong with the world? What's wrong with me?

Why do I feel disconnected? Like, why is everyone so irritating? Those sets of questions are the problem with everything. The problem with everything is the thing that you, like, talk about with your best friend or your partner or your conversational ally at all times. That's one version of the problem with everything. The other thing is just like everything's problematic. Everything's problematic.

That's the alternate. In like a cancel culture type. Why don't we zoom in a little bit? Go ahead, Dan. You want to go first? Well. Let her have it, Dan.

Well, first of all, I mean, this happened this week, which I think I'm quite certain Megan has an opinion on. Yeah. Is that Kamala Harris dropped out of the race for the Democratic...

Just yesterday, right? Or the day before? Why don't you have an opinion on that? Because the only people left in the debate in December are, as of now, white folk. And so, I labeled this talking point and may all your candidates be white. Is Cory Booker out of the...

He's not qualified for the debate. So people are making an issue of this. Cory Booker didn't qualify for the debate? He's not qualified for the debate. He's not qualified for the debate. So people are making an issue of this. Some people. Cory Booker didn't qualify for the debate. I didn't realize that. No. As of now. Okay.

So people are making an issue of this, saying, well, this is, this is, shouldn't be. Isn't, what's her name? Two percent something else? Tulsi's not in the debate. Elizabeth Warren. No, Elizabeth Warren. Isn't she, like, Native American? She's being included as white for purposes of the current outrage.

She's being classified as white. Okay, that's fair enough. What do I think of Kamala Harris dropping out? What do you think of an all-white group of candidates in the Democratic debate? Is this, as Lauren Duca said, a sign of white supremacy? Oh, whatever Lauren Duas says, I second. You disagree with her. And then I cancel.

You know, I guess I'm a white supremacist because I hadn't actually thought about that. Kamala dropped out and I actually liked her. I was sorry that she started virtue signaling and sort of like talking about her pronouns. And I think that's what brought her down. And it's going to bring down Elizabeth Warren and anyone else. But look, I'm from California. I liked Kamala. Do you think that a country that is diverse in its population needs a diverse group of people representing it in Congress and in the White House?

Well, the problem is that this is the problem. One of the problems is that we have this idea that identity equals ideology, right? So if you are a person of color, if you are gay, if you are trans or whatever, we assume that like a set of values comes with that. So, you know, we need to have people representing us that have similar values to the rest of the country, and whether or not that has to do with their immutable traits is a separate question. I mean, Pete Buttigieg is a pretty good example of this. He's like the whitest possible guy, and he happens to be gay, so that gives him a little edge.

And a very good pianist. Yeah, that's important. Is he a good pianist? Yeah, he can play Rhapsody in Blue really well. This brings us to the next talking point. You wrote an essay called Nuance, A Love Story. Yeah. And you decry the lack of nuance.

That's what the whole book is about, too, yes. In certain issues. Issues, by the way, that we discuss on this show quite frequently. Gun control, immigration, and the wage gap are all issues we've discussed on this show. And all issues which you feel are not allowed a nuanced take. Well, you probably noticed this, right? This started happening around 2015.

I mean, how far back do you date this? I feel like around 2015, I started seeing on Twitter, on social media, like there was no leeway, like people who had been pretty, pretty smart people, I knew critical thinkers, like media professionals had always had a pretty, you know, ability to be sort of heterodox in their thinking, suddenly, there was like one lane, like you were super, the word woke wasn't even being used at that time, but you know, there was kind of one way of talking about anything that had to do with gender or race. And, uh, there was no, um, there, there was, there was less and less room to ask questions. So for instance, you brought up the gender wage gap. So if you started to say, well, like,

you know, there is a gender wage gap. Yes, that's true. But what are the reasons? Is it because women are paid less because there's a conspiracy against them? Or is it because they make certain choices? Even you start to go down that route and suddenly people were like, oh no, you're an internalized misogynist, you're sexist, for even asking those things. And that sort of stuck in my craw. And as a person who has been an opinion-haver and writer for 20 years at that point, I felt really kind of ham in the direction of live and let live and not judging others to really being an agenda of policing others.

Policing other people. What the right used to do. What the right used to do. My wife, at the same time, like the highest intellectual circles have found a way to cut the tether from facts and empirical analysis. So like just recently. Like the right used to do. Like the right used to do. So just you probably found like there was this Gordon Woods, this historian who just kind of just eviscerated the 1619 Project in a socialist website a couple days ago. Was it in Jacobin?

I can't remember where it was. No, World Socialist Magazine, something like that. Okay, okay. And then, so then this woman, Nicole Hannah-Jones, Nikki? Nicole Hannah-Jones. Nicole Hannah-Jones. Yeah, she's at the New York Times, yeah. So what does she tweet back?

And if you read this takedown of the 1619 Project, it's really learned and devastating, right? Learned? Learned. It's not obtuse. It's not obtuse. It's learned. I know it is, but I heard learned. Wasn't that an actress, Michael Learned, from Nurse?

Remember the actress? She was a woman. Her first name was Michael, and her last name was Learned. That's how old I am. I was saying Learned Hand. I'm saying I heard Learned out of your mouth. That's what I thought. But it was a Learned takedown.

The Learned takedown and this is her answer. This is the woman who spearheaded the 69 Project for the New York Times. Just because not all of our listeners might be up on this. 1619 was a project wherein it was asserted

that fill in the blank. Well, there were a whole bunch of stories. It was a... Let me just... Go ahead. Might you want to give some background to the listeners who may not be familiar with the 1619 Project?

Yes, 1619 Project was a series of essays in the Times which was going to recast the history of America, essentially to explain that everything we are is a result of our original sin of slavery. And that American history, I guess, starts not in 1776, but in 1619, which was when the first African Americans were slated to be. Right. A good summary.

Thank you. So her answer was, LOL, right, because white historians have produced truly objective history. So, and this, you rolled your eyes, and over again so that the idea now is that you can just dismiss anybody's arguments based on the color of the skin that it comes out of. And you don't even have to be embarrassed. And so you're the guest. I want to hear your story. But I just put them all together. What I find astounding about where this has gone is that once you start criticizing people, dismissing people for the color of their skin or attributing characteristics based on the color of their skin, which we see all around us now. Or to any immutable trait, right?

Yes. You have two options. You have two possible realities. One could be white people actually do have these qualities based on color of their skin but no other group does have characteristics we can comment or you have your characteristics therefore I must have my characteristics and if I can talk about yours

then logically you can talk about mine and that's just simple logic my seven year old daughter could understand that logic yet the smartest people in the world... So this is kind of what your book is touching on, all these trends. So go ahead. Comment on all that. How do we get out of this?

We can have this sort of boring version of this where we talk about this notion of intersectionality, which is what the framework of intersectional thinking is what this is addressing. So we need to view everything through a lens of oppression. So if you are not white, you're going to have disadvantages that a white person couldn't possibly understand. And there are interlocking layers of privilege and oppression. But you know, to me, like the more interesting way of looking at this, and I talk about this a lot in the book, particularly in relation to gender, it's like this whole punching up versus punching down thing, right?

Like we're in a comedy club, so it might be useful to talk about it that way. The principle is that you cannot make fun of somebody who has less power than you. It's not cool. So you can make fun of a politician or somebody who's wealthy or a celebrity or whatever, so you can punch up, but you can't punch down. So this notion has been now translated into the whole cultural conversation. And so on social media, which is basically where everything takes place, the whole culture is metabolized through Twitter, essentially, at this point,

it's okay to make fun of white people, because you are punching up. It's okay, if you're a woman to make fun of men, because you're punching up. Now, to me, that's really messed up, because you are then assuming that this person has power that they may or may not have, like, to me, like, I saw these women, my book starts off talking about how, you know, a couple of years ago, I noticed all these were talking about toxic masculinity and mansplaining and manspreading and all of this. And it was really, like, offensive to me as, like, a self-possessed woman because I thought, you know, by doing that, you're just basically announcing that these men are more powerful than you are. You're handing them power that they don't necessarily have. And so that's the real flaw in this premise of intersectionality and punch-ups.

Eric, I think it's even worse than that. And by the way, and she also said, just to put this all together, she also said about, Nicole Hannah-Jones also answered, the 1619 Project explicitly denies objectivity. So they're wearing this as a badge, like, yeah, we're going to do history. We don't intend to be objective. So what does that mean? Right.

Well, I mean, you could make the argument that nothing is objective. Like, that's a rabbit hole, right? I mean, everyone's brain is. But look what's happened here. We have all these lessons that we've learned in science about bias. And that's why we have double- experiments and in you know all this other areas of science because we know that the closer you are to something the less likely your judgment is and now we reverse it to say no no no we only want to hear from the people who might be so

emotionally close to this that they have no objectivity, and that people who might be disinterested, their opinions are worthless, but it makes no sense. And intersectionality is just racism. Yes, there is a different effect when you punch up. It's hard to hurt. You can punch up a Mayor Michael Bloomberg all you want, and it doesn't affect him. But that doesn't change the fact that what you might be saying about his whiteness is foul and immoral and,

um, and anti-intellectual and, and wrong. And to, to say like, just because I, just because I can, we've talked about this before,

just because I can do this because it won't hurt you. Doesn't mean I should give myself license to do it because it's still wrong. Martin Luther King didn't give himself license to do that. That's right. I mean, it belittles yourself. I just think it diminishes yourself. Erica Rhodes, you know, I saw a little bit of your stand-up. I'm not familiar with it. I hadn't been familiar with you. Oh.

But from what little I saw, I see that you punch mainly yourself. Yeah, I was thinking that's the best way. Well, I was thinking, I was going to say, that's pretty much the only thing you can do at this point is punch yourself. That's the safest bet. You can punch up, but you can also just keep punching yourself, like the sad clown you are. As a preventative.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's what was so brilliant about Gary Gullman's special. Here he is, this strong white male guy. Did you guys watch his special? His strong white guy. It's like, what is he going to talk about that's a struggle? Well, he found his depression, his internal turmoil, and he talks about that, and it's all very personal stuff. And it's like, okay, you can't take that away from him.

You can't be like, what does he have to complain about? Because that's a legit struggle he has. But my problem is also, I mean, I totally agree with Megan with what you're saying. Because even as a woman, sometimes I feel I'm not enough of a feminist. I'm not saying enough pro-women things. You're not in lockstep with them. Yeah, and sometimes I get flack from other female comics where they're like, well, you can't say that.

You know? What jokes do you have that they say you cannot say? Well, no one's told me. I've tweeted things before. So remember during the Oscars when it was a lot of pro-women stuff? And all I tweeted something that was like, I have a prediction that

someone will say something about being a woman. That was all I wrote. You got in trouble for that? Yeah. A female comic wrote to me and said, well, what would be the problem with that? And I said, nothing. It's just a prediction. I'm not saying anything else.

But even that was like, uh-oh, you know, the police are out. I can't even say that. Let me tell you who you're sitting next to, how brave this woman is. Let me read something from her book. Yeah, this is the nicest interview I've had. You know I'm getting completely beat up, so I'm very relaxed here. You are among friends here. I know.

But listen to what she wrote here. Raise your hand if you've ever behaved badly and blamed it on your period. Raise your hand if you've ever acted helpless in the face of an unpleasant, if not physically demanding task like dealing with a wild animal that's gotten into the house. Raise your hand if you've ever coerced a man into sex, even though he didn't seem to really want it. Raise your hand if you've thought you were at liberty to do this coercing because men, quote, always want it and should feel lucky anytime they get it. Raise your hand if you've ever threatened

to harm yourself if a man breaks up with you or doesn't want to see you anymore. Raise your hand if you've been physically abusive with a male partner, knowing you'd be unlikely to face any legal consequences. Almost done. Raise your hand if you lied about being on birth control or faked a pregnancy,

scared to see how a man would respond. Raise your hand if you lied about being on birth control or faked a pregnancy, scared to see how a man would respond. Raise your hand if you've ever manipulated a divorce or child custody dispute in your favor by falsely insinuating that a man has been abusive towards you or your child. Wow. Yeah, I mean. What got into you? Nobody here. No, but here's the thing that's so brilliant about that is it's just saying women can do horrible things, too. That's right.

And if you're going to say that only men can do horrible things, that's taking away some of our power, actually. It's also sexist. Yeah, and it's sexist. But you've got to also. Let her answer. Oh, no. Well, I would just, as I said, so this is a section where I talk about toxic femininity. If we're going to talk about toxic masculinity, we have to talk about toxic femininity.

And I'm not saying, obviously, every single woman is not going to raise her hand. I probably raised my hand for one of those things. But I say, you know, I think if you had like, you know, a football stadium, you know, if 75,000 women were packed into a stadium, many, many, many hands would go up. And, yeah, that section makes people really, really angry. And I just, there are women that I know, maybe not directly, but, you know, certainly second or third hand, that have done all of those things. But that being said, though, when it comes to the really,

the most dastardly of crimes, the men certainly are well ahead of the women. When it comes to genocidal, you know... Actually, there was just a study that said female heads of state actually cause more wars. I think I sent it to Perrielle. But to interject, she's not covering that topic. She's covering manipulation.

To me, it seems like you're covering manipulation of the opposite sex. Yeah, and I'm talking, yeah. And I say, obviously, like, you know, women tend to be smaller and weaker than men. There's a physical discrepancy. So let's not diminish that. But I think that, you know, we really let women off the hook in a lot of ways. And to do that is really infantilizing and, in fact, sexist. Well, isn't that what feminism, to my mind,

feminism has regressed in a certain sense because more than ever, the subtext of feminism that I hear is that women need special protection. Right, and that's the opposite of what we were doing in the 70s. I don't think that's what feminism means. Well, let me tell you why. It used to be like that only cases of coercion, whether it was

physical or professional, where either the man coerced because he was stronger or because he had some power over her, that was where we drew the line at what was just totally unacceptable. Now, it's any time a man comes on, it might be unacceptable. I mean, it reminds me of cancer surgery and all the healthy tissue you cut out.

I'm sure all of us know many couples that met at work. Many, numerous. I met my wife at work. It's like the most common place to meet. Oh, you mean like assaulting them and then it works out? No, no, no. No, what I'm saying. No, you don't have to stop what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that. And now we're saying, no, no, this is all off limits now. There shall be no, because we know that some men have behaved badly. Rather than trying to fix that, we're saying, no, anytime a man in the workplace wants to go out with a woman that he meets, anytime a boss wants to date, it's off limits and it's wrong. I don't know that anybody's going quite as far as to say that.

It absolutely is. Insurance companies warn us now up and down. You cannot allow employees to date each other anymore. I mean, it was like that when I was was getting my master's degree and I was teaching. It was like that. You weren't allowed. No professors or assistant professors. You were not allowed to fraternize with students.

I mean, that's like a power. But even in workplace, if there's any sort of power, if there's any sort of hierarchy, look, this stuff is really complicated. I mean, it's easy. I'm with you, but it's also like it's easy to slip into talking about this and big generalizations. Like I think at the end of the day, we've been at this for such little time. Like when you think about it, men and women have been working together

on anything resembling an even playing field for like 50 years. I mean, the birth control pill has only been around for 60 years. Okay? That is like a nanosecond. So until then, there was never any, you know, it was assumed that women were not going to work outside of the home. It was assumed that men were going to, you know, support everybody. Men were dying in wars.

Women were dying on childbirth. Like, you know, it's very, very recent that we've even had the pretense of equality. So I think it's going to take a while to sort it all out. So let's leave the complicated workplace out of it for a second, even though I think it's ridiculous to think that people are going to stop meeting each other or falling in love with each other when they're working together every day. Yeah, of course you're right about that. But let's take examples that we've talked about almost ad nauseum on this show.

Aziz Ansari. Well, there's an interesting point about that over there, which is that, I mean, I don't know if I would be considered an older female or a younger female or in the middle. Older. Young. But I mean, I thank you. Older. Young. You look young. Thank you. I don't know.

I'm 44. I don't know what. How old are you? You're younger than me. How old are you? I'm an older man. I'm 57. Go ahead.

And I don't know exactly what happened in that story. In which story? In the Aziz story. In the Aziz Ansari story. But as I've understood it, it just sounded like a shitty date, right? Oh, you're older then. You're an older feminist. That's your interpretation.

That's what I'm saying. I want to know what Erica thinks. But wait, I just want to finish because what you said about what feminism is. I don't think that that's true. I think that feminism is the notion that women should be treated equally to them. Let me tell you why I think it's protective. So the story, as far as I read the story,

there was never any You're talking about the Aziz story. Aziz story. And then I'm going to go to the Louis story. There was never any accusation whatsoever

of any kind of physical coercion. She never felt she wasn't free to leave. If you reverse the characters in that story and a man were to have the nerve to write

that very same column about everybody would laugh at him. So what's the difference? The difference can only be no, we're more protective of women. Even though she was free to leave it, we still... No, I don't think that that's right. It's a chivalry in a way. Well, a lot of younger women, they were absolutely saying that.

There was a huge generational divide over that story. That's true, but I don't think it's because we're more protective of women. I think that that is much more lined up with the culture. Well, let me give you this. Let me add the Louis thing. I mean, I don't think you can talk about those things as the same. Let me add the Louis thing. So you have Louis there with two female comedians in Montreal. They don't work for him.

Who is Aspen? What's that? In Aspen, yeah. And they hang out till four in the morning until the bars close. Then they go back to his room to smoke a joint and he asks, can I masturbate? They never say anything. He never blocked

the door. This came out, even though the reporter in the New York Times didn't write it, she told us, he never blocked the door. They never were held back, held in any way. And this gross thing happened. Again, if this had been reversed, and if you started masturbating in front of me in a hotel room,

is there any chance that your career would ever be, that you'd be canceled for that? No, because, and the only way to explain it is that we're not treating men and women as the same. And you hit the nail on the head. Yes, we shouldn't treat them the same. We shouldn't treat people the same when there are differences to justify that.

So if a woman is weaker, yes, then it's not. If there's a physical altercation. Or if someone's in a position of power. But feminism, to me, always meant that absent that, you're all equals in the room. And what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And you have agency. Leave or don't leave. We are treating all Me Too allegations the same, though.

All the Me Too cult. I know, but I'm saying in public opinion and in the work and how the fallout has all been almost the same. Well, actually, I want to ask you about the Louis thing. Because my understanding was that it wasn't just that this thing happened, but then later these women were threatened or somehow their long-term career, that there was some sort of impact because if they came forward, they would be... Maybe you can explain that. There is this accusation that's gone around that the manager, Dave Becky, in some way threatened their career. I have not been able to find any evidence of that.

And we interviewed Melina Rizek, who wrote the New York Times story, and we pressed her very hard on it, and she had no evidence of it. She asked Becky, did you threaten them or something? And when I asked her, where did you get that concept of threatening? Did somebody

tell you that he threatened them or you just introduced that in the question? And she kind of ducked the question. You can listen to this podcast. The reporter came on this podcast? Yeah. And the most interesting thing that came out of that interview I had with her, just for people who don't know, is because the original

Gawker.com story had said that Louis blocked the door. And that would have been quite serious. So I asked her, did you ask the ladies if Louis blocked the door? She said, yes, I did. I said, did he block the door? She said, no. I said, why didn't you write that in a story? She said, I didn't think it was relevant.

This is I have this, I said, how could you not think you were there? How could you not think it was relevant? I mean, this is what he's accused of. She didn't think it was relevant. How have the summary. I said, how could you not think you were there? How could you not think it was relevant? I mean, this is what he's accused of. She didn't think it was relevant. How old is she? The reporter? Yeah, roughly. I think she's of a certain age. I'm not sure.

She's not a millennial. She's older. She's a bit older. Probably a little bit. But I want to talk to... She's very, very, very smart. Even though I'm kind of criticizing her, I am criticizing her. I really like her, and she's very, very smart. But she just represents what a lot of journalists are today. She had an agenda, in my opinion.

I mean, but I ask because, you know, it really speaks to this, there's such a different perception. It's like, if you're an older woman, it's like, okay, well, if you can physically run out of the place and call yourself a cab, then you're safe. And, you know, I would be curious, like Erica, what are your friends who may say, well, I feel threatened and I feel uncomfortable, and therefore discomfort is tantamount to danger. I wanted to say that I handpicked Erica because I knew that you

make a lot about this generational divide that older women, Gen Xers, are more about being tough and that the millennials are more about being protected. Or fair. Fair. Fair. I handpicked from among the women

that are working here tonight a millennial. Barely. A barely millennial. But she's barely a millennial. But she's also a comic. And comics are not like everybody else. But I'm also, I'm weird, because I'm very not into identity anything. Like, I'm an individualist,

so I think every situation should be judged as that situation is. So how does that go with your friends and your peers? Do you get in arguments? Well, I just don't talk a lot. I mean, no, I mean, the people that I keep close to, I can say my opinions, but sometimes I, yeah, I feel, I really feel like every situation is different and it shouldn't depend on whether it's a man or a woman. It's, I'm just really into

whoever that person is and judge them by their actions, not by what their identity is. And this used to be, this is like what Martin Luther King talked about. This is what Barack Obama talked about. And he's been canceled now, or he's on the verge of cancellation. Megan, I was curious. I agree that there is a divide among those that feel one way and those that, among the woke crowd and among the more nuanced crowd. You make it a generational thing and i was wondering how

you i just see it as a division that crosses generations yeah i don't think it's so much general generational as much as just your own thinking the way you think you know like whether you truly believe in in freedom of think of thought well like yeah i mean it is generational in so far as we see on college campuses. Like, you know, there are students who really, really just seem to be hardwired to think that if somebody is going to make a speech, give a lecture at their college, and they're representing a point of view that they're not comfortable with, that equals violence. Like, that is... They feel triggered. Can I give an example?

We had a reporter, I wish I could remember, I'm so bad at remembering names now. We had a reporter here from Teen Vogue a few years ago. Lauren Duca? No, it wasn't Lauren Duca. She almost walked out. You locked the door so she couldn't get out. She was talking. Somehow the subject of rape was being discussed.

And she said that rape is about power. It's not about sex. Well, that's true. And I had Dworkin. She didn't invent that idea. So I said something that I apparently was not supposed to say. And I said. I mean, we know that's true. And I had Dworkin. She didn't invent that idea. So I said something that I apparently was not supposed to say. And I said... I mean, we know that's true, right?

I said to her, how do we know that rape is about power and not about sex? Because when, for instance, somebody robs somebody, we don't say it was about power and not about money. So I'm like... These are these platitudes. They don't mean anything. But isn't sex and power something though? It's stripped of meaning though. It could mean something. Erica brought up a good point. Sex and power

intimately intertwine. Power turns people on sexually. That's why I thought Cosby was into what he was into because he was into the power of the sex. Okay, but I think maybe we're missing my point. My point is that they repeat this stuff without

any kind of... There's not like a study that proved this or whatever. It becomes the party line. And then when you ask, like, well, how do you know that? She accused me of normalizing rape. That was her answer. You're normalizing... I'm like, do you think that I'm like... I'm less offended by rape

for power than rape for sex? I'm anti-rape. But see, that's a situation where I feel like it's just because you're a man, any opinion on rape is Well, again, there's no nuance. That's like saying, oh, I think we should have some sort of immigration policy. Oh, you want babies in cages?

Exactly. I mean, as a man, I understand being overcome with lust, and yeah, I could see if I was some kind of sociopath, I'd be like, I'm just going to take what I want. That wouldn't be about power. That would be about taking sex. Now, maybe

some guys do it for power. I don't know. Sexual harassment in an office situation is almost always about power. The person who's doing it has more power. Well, it's using power to get sex. Well, or just, you know, you're using power to make, you know, you know the person's not going to complain. Their job is at risk. This is all very dynamic.

But as Erica pointed out, power in and of itself is sexual. It's a turn on. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The two are the same. Yeah, that's why this is so complicated. And women use sex for power, too. Well, yes. And nobody has more power than a young woman.

Nobody has more power. I mean, like, look, you can, you know, young women have so much power. Yeah, I just ruined my career over there. You know, entire, look, you know, entire nations have fallen. I mean, Bill Clinton, you know, for, what, for five seconds of, you know, interaction with this 20 year old, you know, we came to collapse practically. Like, you know, this is historic. Look, again, this is why nuance is so important and being able to have free ranging conversations is so important because none of this is reducible to like a platitude or a tweet or, you know, a sick burn online. Like we have a sick burn is like, oh, do you know, a sick burn online. What's a sick burn?

A sick burn is like, oh, do you know what that is probably? It's like a mean something. Yeah, like if somebody, like, I owned you. Oh, okay. Oh, it was a sick burn. Sick burn, right. So, you know, and I do, like, I think a lot and I talk a lot in the book about, like, how this came to be.

I think we used to just have room in the culture for free-ranging conversations in person, even on the phone, you know? And I think that, again, this is where the generational thing comes in, and I don't want to, like, hit this too hard. Obviously, we're all living in this, you know, digital world now. But, you know, I have students who, you know, conduct really most of their relationships, like, via text and on a screen. And they're having like you know big discussions I guess like with their thumbs and these are people in their mid-20s they're not high school students and so I think that that blunts uh discussion in a way that you know those of us

who are older we we really have this great gift of being able to just talk to our friends and kind of sort things through and and in a safe space Like we could sit here and have, you know, a really long, complicated conversation about sex and power and rape and any of these situations in a much more constructive way than is available now. I really think that's true. It is because it used to be, I'm older than you, but kind of coming from the same time,

we weren't about policing other people. We grew up when the Nazisis were marking and marching in skokie and and uh you know for all the other people were like you know jesse helms it was it was like tipper gore with the labels on the on the heavy metal records but even like talk shows a grand dragon of the KKK, was an acceptable guest on a talk show, and we would learn. Absolutely. Did you have, like, deep cable? What talk show was that?

No, no, no. There were, like, all the talk shows. Waldo Donahue. Oh, I see. They would bring them in. Yes, not on, like, the Dick Cavett show or something. Dick Cavett had Lester Maddox on. Okay, that's, of course.

Which I talk about in the book. Not having him on because he supported him. To mock him. Yeah, but not to mock him. To speak, like, what the hell's going on with this guy? Like, we need to learn about these people. I would love to be able to have on my show Holocaust deniers, you know, the worst people in the world. I would like to speak to them.

But apparently, only journalists from time to time like megan kelly maybe can go into akhmadina jad you know she can get away with it but for the rest of us not anymore maybe she's done not anymore but you know i'm saying like like you you can interview and and and it i mean they so pick and choose like look at what's going on in China, right? A million people in concentration camps. Why are we not embargoing? Like, why are these millennials ever touching another iPhone? Like, where is their consistency? Right?

I mean, we're so critical of the countries that let it happen to the Jews, and we're smack dab, maybe they're not exterminating the Uyghurs, but I'm sure many of them are being killed. Oh, there is obscene torture. I mean, what's going on there is horrific beyond measure. Yeah, no, I just want to be accurate that I don't know if they're exterminating them like they did to the Jews. But it's bad enough, certainly, for us to say to ourselves, wait a second, are we kind of looking the other way yet again? A hundred percent. But BDS was kept in the Israelis. But then does this go to the whole, like, we don't want to impose our values on other cultures?

There are young feminists on college campuses that don't want to talk about things like female genital mutilation because that would be judgmental of another culture. That's insane. That gets into Islamophobia. So, you know, it's just remarkable. What has gotten into these people? Well, I don't know. But this is the thing that I wrestle with.

And again, like the book, I'm not just hammering away. It's not a polemic. It's a self-interrogation. Like I set out to try to figure out what was it about me being of a certain age, growing up in the 70s and the 80s, having the sort of cultural conditioning that I did. What is it about me that is making me not understand a lot of the discourse now and a lot of the values now?

And I think that it just comes from, I think social media is very much to blame. Yeah, I mean, I think that you nailed it with that. I think that that's really, you're not really having a conversation with a person. Well, what we don't know, and you probably will agree that you don't know, is how much of this is an illusion and how much of it is real. For instance, we talked that it was a poll that came out among Hispanics, then fewer than 2% want to be called Latinx.

Latinx. Fewer than 2%. As if like, we're Jews. Don't tell the New York Times. Right. So what you have is every presidential candidate using this term, not to please Latin people, to please these young white millennials on Twitter.

I think they wanted to be called Hispanic. I think that they, according to that poll, and that was a poll done by a left-leaning organization. Yeah, did you see Elizabeth Warren tweeted that trans and non-binary people are the backbone of the Democratic Party? By the way, you did forgive me. I mean, forgive me for what I'm going to say. I thought you did buckle a little bit on one of your opinions.

Is it okay for me to say? Please. Only one? Kavanaugh. Oh. And I don't blame you because it was really scary to not say that Kavanaugh was the worst piece of shit on planet Earth for a while there. Even I was kind of

intimidated on the show. But you said it some way well, but I think he doesn't have the temperament to be Supreme Court Justice anyway. And I really don't like that argument. Oh, really? I'll tell you why. And he said, because... Oh, I like that argument.

Yeah, I'm so with that argument. Let me tell you why. Especially now since we found out that, what was it, Leland Kaiser? Leland Kaiser, yeah. Leland Kaiser. I say Megum, so... Leland Kaiser said that she was pressured

to change her story or Debbie Ramirez was as well and that she doesn't believe that she's skeptical of her story and that's her close friend so now that we know that when you are accused in front of the entire world

of being a gang rapist and within a whisker of literally even your children will never recover from this. And you have some sort of meltdown in the face of this, what's pretty clear to be absolute lie, especially with Avenatti and all of it. I can forgive that. And let me give an example. Yitzhak Rabin, who was the Prime Minister of Israel, he had a nervous breakdown during the 1967 war. And this was a...

That was a war. Are you comparing those things for real? Yes, I'm saying that their temperament, being able to handle pressure, was actually an important function of doing his job. He's going to lead the country. And even that was forgivable. A Supreme Court justice is not going into war like the judgmental quality that people are ready to not put themselves in another person's shoes. You know what?

I could have my life just totally ruined, not just on a lie, but on a lie that actually makes me look like the worst piece of shit humanity. And if I get angry out loud, if I just kind of lose my shit, that's it. Now it doesn't even matter what you told the truth.

Now it doesn't even matter to us anymore whether or not this is all a lie. Even if we find out that it's all a lie, you still can't be a Supreme Court justice because you lost your temper. Well, okay, but just to be precise here, the gang rape, like the rape trains or whatever, that was coming from Julie Swetnick, Alvinati's client, and that was dismissed immediately. That was not on the—

Some of the senators asked him about it. But that was not at issue. Yes, it was. It was? Absolutely. It was an issue for a time, and then it was dismissed. During the hearings, it had not yet been dismissed. This is the thing.

I mean, people have asked me, you know, sort of polite literary company, they've asked me, do I think that there was evidence? What have they asked me? You know, I do not think that... It's scary to talk about. I do not... Well, no, I'm trying to articulate this correctly. I do not think that it would have risen

to any evidentiary standard to accuse... to convict him either in a court or in that hearing situation of assaulting Christine Blasey Ford. I mean, I believe her, but I don't believe there was enough evidence. So there was no... You do believe her. I do believe her, but I don't believe...

It's like, you know, you can watch a criminal trial and believe that the person is guilty, but that there's not enough evidence to convict them. That happens all the time. I believe her, too. Yeah, I believe her, too. But at the same time... But the thing with the temperament, I just don't understand. There are so many

conservative judges out there they could have brought in. There's no dearth of them. Why him? I could forgive a nervous breakdown, but he sounded like... I mean, are you going to look me in the eye? Are you going to look me in the eye? You want to look me in the eye and tell me he didn't sound like a complete and utter buffoon and moron?

One can have a breakdown in a more dignified way. Look at Braveheart. Look, you know. And you can't compare that to the 67 war. I mean, come on. Forget the 67 war. I think you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to

I think it's self-explanatory. He didn't sound like a complete dope to you? No, he didn't sound like a complete dope. He sounded to me like somebody who lost his shit because he's being accused of being a rapist. Lose your shit in a dignified way. But how does that look? How does losing

your shit in a dignified way... This is a dope rage! And I dare say I can't stand for it! If there were a black senator... Well, if it was Clarence Thomas, it would be a very similar thing. But who was accused of some racist accusation, raping a white woman, whatever it was. And let's presume it was all.

And he fucking lost his shit. We would call it righteous indignation. Well. We would. No one's going to criticize. No one would ever say it doesn't matter whether that black guy actually did it. He doesn't have the temperament anymore. The way he reacted to those false charges of him raping that white woman,

now we don't even care whether he raped her or not. He can't be a justice. No effing way anybody would say that. No way. That's why. No way. So that's how I feel about it. I think that might be a little beside the point.

That might be true. That might be true. That might be true. I still say he did not sound like a particularly dignified individual, even given the pressure that he was under and the possibility, not necessarily probability, but possibility that he was being falsely accused. And for the record, I always did believe her. But now that the people closest to her don't believe her, I think it's becoming just an act of faith to believe her.

How can you believe her when her closest childhood her don't believe her. I think it's becoming just an act of faith to believe her. Like, how can you believe her when her closest childhood friends don't? Like, that's just... Right. I have no reason not to believe... I mean... Erica, you say what about... I always did believe her. About Christine Blasey Ford, the Kavanaugh accuser.

Yeah, I mean, I believed her, but I also... I agree with what you're all saying. I think if somebody is in a position where they're trying to defend their honor, their job, their family, their life, they are going to lose it a little. That's what I believe, that they're going to break down a little. Yes, I perfectly agree. But as I said numerous times during this podcast, in breaking down, he just sounded like a dope.

Okay, but this is what you'd have to believe. You'd have to believe the following, during this podcast, in breaking down, he just sounded like a dope. Okay, but this is what you'd have to believe. You'd have to believe the following, that if Blasey Ford came into the Senate chamber and said, you know what, I admit it, I made the whole thing up, that the Democrats would then say, okay, we still won't vote for him because we don't like his temperament, because we don't like the way he reacted to the fact that we now, and that doesn't hold together to me. They would try that. I'm shocked that doesn't hold together to me. I'm shocked that he was nominated in the first place.

There's nobody more dignified... He was a highly, highly, highly... And he's actually a champion of women. I mean, I have friends who've worked with him who really respect him. It's hard to believe this guy is any good. I haven't read his opinions. But it's hard to believe they're not like... You can't judge his whole livelihood

based on his reaction to being accused and possibly falsely accused of something. Also, he's doing what any conservative judge would do. This goes to the Trump thing.

We are in this mentality where we're in such an emergency because of Trump that everything is just ratcheted up. The hyperbole around this. George W. Bush could have nominated Brett Kavanaugh. He's a

conservative judge. The nominee that was going to come up right behind him was Amy Barrett. That's right. She was a real right-wing anti-abortionist. She's got like six kids or something, which I find fascinating.

She would have been involved to overturn Roe v. Wade, where he probably isn't. Just to summarize, no one believes his righteous indignation was justified if he was being falsely accused. I believe that too, but I feel he sounded like a moron nonetheless. You've got to be an exceptional person and keep it together. He shouldn't have said the beer line. The beer line. Like, like a guy's a prime minister

of a country at wartime. He said, I don't like beer or something. I mean, don't you think? Yeah, I like beer. Do you understand the microscope?

Like, do you think any, if you were in that situation and you're just being pelted with lies left and right, I'm presuming they're lies, you know, for the sake of argument,

you couldn't survive that. You'd say something they're lies, even for the sake of argument. You couldn't survive that. You'd say something wrong, they'd focus in on something. My argument about the whole thing... I'd either be screaming like a maniac... Hold on. ...saying, what the fuck is this? I didn't fucking rape her. Which he didn't do.

I would have forgiven him, by the way. If he had done that, I would have been more on board. So my feeling during the whole thing was not that I didn't believe her. It was that I didn't see how liberals of all people are going to hold something that a 16-year-old shit-faced kid does that doesn't even amount to a crime. And I think he was in a blackout also. That's a whole other thing. Hold it against him 35 years later. I think we need to set some ground rules. That's not how liberals usually think.

This is ultimately what I think what it comes down to. I remember every party I was at in high school, and who the dungeon master was. The first thing I looked up when that story broke was how does the law treat sealing these records? And also then they start going after all these other women. I mean, Ronan Farrow. This is what I think.

Actually, we have Woody Allen to thank for the entire Me Too movement because if Ronan Farrow wasn't so obsessed with avenging his mother in operatic fashion by going after these accusers,

as a journalist, we would have none of this. We kind of have Frank Sinatra to thank, too. Well, exactly. And Hannibal Buress. And I, this is,

I mean, and I actually, you know, and I think that, I think that, well, I think that Dylan was not, I think that Dylan believes she was molested, and I think Mia Farrow has decided this. And I think Ronan knows deep down that it's not true, and that's why he's going down the aisle. Do you believe Ronan is Frank Sinatra's child?

Yes. You do? It looks just like him. Well, I mean... He looks like... Unless Woody just has complete recessive genes. He looks like Mia's father, though. Have you heard him sing My Way?

No, I haven't. It's very convincing. Also, you know that Mia Farrow's brother is in prison for pedophilia, for child molestation. You know that, right? I didn't know that. It's true.

What do you think of Erica? She's a millennial. I hand-picked her, by the way, for this show. What do you think of Erica? She's a millennial. I handpicked her, by the way, for this show. What do you think of the fact that she seems more in line with your way of thinking on feminism than with what you have described as the millennial line? Collapse is my whole premise, my whole theory. I like collapsing premises.

That's my favorite thing. The paperback is going to have to be rewritten. Yeah, look, I don't want to write these books. You've got to talk sort of in broad strokes. I do think that it is, you know, I think the fact that you are a comedian and a creative person, and you don't strike me as somebody who went to Oberlin College. No, I dropped out of college twice.

Okay, that's probably why. Honestly, because the liberal arts colleges have really signed up for this intersectional theory. I mean, you know, everything that Nicole Hannah-Jones is putting forth is absolutely the doctrine at a lot of these colleges. And so that's why you get people working in newsrooms. And, you know, there are major generational divides in newsrooms. And you get young people working on the website that completely subscribe to this stuff and then the older people on the other side and no that's i think that yeah you not going to college saved you so yeah this should be the lesson also she is uh suffers from manic depressive illness that's

not actually accurate well it's more interesting if you did. It might be something if you Google me. That's what I found online. No, well, I was sort of misdiagnosed with bipolar at one point, but I've also been diagnosed with ADHD, depression. Basically, my theory along the lines of this also goes along the lines

of psychiatry, which is, I think, if you go to someone, if you want a disorder, you can get a disorder. You can go and get one. Oh, that's true. You can go pick up one. You don't trust psychiatry, which is, I think, if you go to someone, if you want a disorder, you can get a disorder. You can go and get one. You can go pick up one. You don't trust psychiatry. No. Are you a Scientologist?

No, no, I'm just, yeah, no. My own thing. You don't see yourself as mentally ill? I get to, no, I think I suffer from, I actually do think I do have a lot of aspects of ADHD that sound familiar, if that's a thing. But that's not mental illness. It might just be creativity.

You know, your brain isn't wired the same way. And then I do get depressed. But I don't believe in the diagnoses. Every person is an expert at that. So the bipolar person is an expert at bipolar. So the bipolar person is an expert at bipolar. So lo and behold, you have bipolar. Yes, you want to stay in your lane. Well, do you ever get depression to the point that you simply can't get out of bed for days on end?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've had that. Well, then that sounds to me, unless there was something going on in your life that was extremely. No, I definitely think depression is probably the main thing. I would say so, yes. Thank you, Dr. Natterman. I self-diagnosed myself with depression. And therefore you related to Gary's show, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

I loved it. I was really honest and I liked that. How adorable, by the way, is Erica Rhodes? I hope that's not inappropriate to say. Actual harassment! And she reminds me of Maria Bamford As I mentioned You get that a lot? I do

How do you feel when people say that? Well it's funny because I was the first person to say it And that's how I got my manager So you stole her line That's actually your plagiarized part Wait her line? No no you just said So you're the one who said that Well no I didn't hear her say it You stole her line. That's actually your plagiarized line. Wait, her line? No, no.

You just said. Oh, yeah. So you're the one who said that. Well, no, I didn't hear her say it. Okay. No, no. I said it first to my manager. I wrote him an email and I said, I'm a young Maria Bamford. And that was before I even started stand-up.

So then he signed me later on, but he was like, I don't see it. But then since I've said it, everyone says it now. I mean, it's a great comparison. It's a great person to be like. No, I love her. I've always see it. But then since I've said it, everyone says it now. I mean, it's a great comparison. It's a great person to be like. No, I love her. I've always loved her. And I think our acts are different enough that it's not like I'm trying to be her.

You know? We just have similarities. Well, it's the accent, I guess. I love people so much. I love you so much. I love my family so much. I love my nieces and nephews. I say that I love them, but is that what I say when once a year I FedEx them a box of wigs? Does that really

make up for the fact that I never make eye contact, and I'm still not clear on their names? It's her voice. She sounds a little bit like Joe Mackey, too, though. A slight Mackey-esque quality. It's not overwhelming.

Megan, just before we go, so you're an intellectual. I'm a semi-intellectual. Are you a mom, too, by the way? No, and I've actually written a lot about this. I do not. I think most people should have kids, but I never wanted them. I've done a whole project on this. I'm into, yeah, it's fine for others.

I love not having kids. Not having kids is the best thing in my life. So I have three kids. And my daughter, just to really encapsulate it, my daughter in first grade came home. My wife is Indian. So my daughter comes home and says, Dad, and she never even had any concept of college. She says, Daddy, you're white, right? I'm like, yeah. And she goes, do you

treat people badly? I'm like, no, honey. Did you ever see Daddy treating me badly? She says, well, did you used to? Because we learned in school that white people used to treat people badly. So they're getting this stuff and then... Oh, the 1619 Project has been adopted

by public schools now. That is becoming an educational framework. This is before that. Then my daughter comes home a couple days later and she goes, Daddy, did you know that Donald Trump is building a wall and trying to make the Mexicans pay for it? I'm like, who's telling you about this? My teacher told us we need to know this stuff. And just filling her with all this...

Well, that's not inaccurate. Well, that was something he did say. I mean, you know. Really? You think that. Do you have any doubt in your mind what the teacher's point of view was about this fact? I grant you that. I grant you that.

But it's not that she's fabricating that. But I do agree that she probably is trying to inculcate. She's not fabricating that white people used to treat people badly. What she's doing is telling a little young girl who still believes in Santa Claus that she's supposed to understand concepts. She has no way. You should pull your kids out and send them to Covington Catholic. Well, that's right. Covington Catholic High School.

So this is my question. So I grew up during the civil Rights era. I remember Martin Luther King. I remember vividly when he was shot. I remember the marches through the streets. She is wrong, by the way, about white people. I mean, insofar as she didn't say, people treat each other badly. By singling out

white people, she was wrong. She was not wrong about Trump wanting to build a wall. No, she was right. White people used to treat black people badly. That is a fact. By saying white people used to treat black people badly. That is a fact. They still treat black people badly. By saying white people used to treat people badly is a lie by omission. People have been

treating each other badly for centuries of all races, colors, and creeds. These are different categories of... She's trying to... If white people

were the only people in history that did that, she might have a point. They're trying to impose a certain worldview onto my daughter. I'm a very political guy i never discuss politics at home because i understand how powerful my words can be there and i wanted to think for ourselves i don't wanna start

brainwashing her however he brainwashed me having kids well however i i became so nervous about this this trickle-down intersectionality that i decided i wanted to i i do want to brainwash them about race and and the evil of racism so this is my question is it okay to read them tom sawyer is it okay to read them to kill a mockingbird? Is it okay to say Negro and the N-word when it's written in the book to my child? This is not really Megan's field.

I'm asking what she thinks. You know what I'm going to say. We have to trust ourselves and the people around us to walk and chew gum at the same time. I mean, my gosh. What's the point of being any sort of modern and enlightened culture? Are we not an enlightened culture? I just think we're really selling everybody short. I mean, this stuff is complicated.

And to assume that somebody is not able to read Tom Sawyer and see the different components and see what's going on and put it in some sort of historical context. Either the teacher is falling down on the job or, you know, this school system is lazy. I mean, this stuff is like... Let's face it, though. Some people should be sold short. I mean, there's so many... I think one thing I've learned from Twitter, people are dumb. Well, but again, it's like the soft bigotry of low expectations, right?

Sometimes justified. Yeah, but you know, here's the thing. Remember Avenue Q, the musical? Do you remember this from like the early aughts? It was like a Muppet musical. It was a parody of Sesame Street. It won all these Tonys. It was a big hit.

Okay, it was puppets. It was on Broadway. And there was a song called Everybody's a Little Bit Racist. And they were talking just about how, like, this is how it is. Like, you know, why don't we all just admit we're racist? Like, you know, different races are racist against each other. And it's not, you know, white people and black people and Asians. And this is all just a big mix. And we make judgments about people based on all sorts of things. And maybe it would help if we just admitted it and worked on it and went from there.

And it's astonishing to me that a musical with a song like that won like three Tonys in 2003, which is not that long ago. And this kind of dialogue was unthinkable. Unthinkable. And just as a happy thing, so I am reading To Kill a Mockingbird to my seven-year-old daughter and my six-year-old son. And it's very interesting.

Exactly what I thought would happen is happening, especially to my son. He just cannot believe the heartbreaking and kind of outrageous descriptions of the way black people were treated in the old south and he has one question after daddy but why did they take

why didn't they take white people as slaves and how could they do that and there's a trial scene that hasn't even started yet but I don't know daddy because he says the jury's going to be all white people from that town and they're going to convict him. They're going to say that he's guilty even if he's innocent. So by reading him the story, I'm not ramming it down his own.

He's reacting to this in a very, very healthy way, and I believe that's a much better way for him to learn. He's really feeling the evil of racism in a sense. He's not learning that white people are bad. That's not... He's dealing with complexity. I mean, again, I think it's like... He's an extraordinary kid, by the way.

No, no, he's not. But like anything that is true is complicated. And anybody who is a human being is complicated. And it's like to deny people their complexities is to deny them their humanity, right? But we seem to have this premise now

that you're erasing somebody's humanity if you're not slicing them into this tiny little identity category. It's backwards. We're all many things. So again, we've been joking around. I just feel like I don't dismiss any of this. I think Me Too is a net positive.

Of course. I think that, you know, we're moving in the right direction as a civilization generally. I think we're in a very strange moment. But we have to just allow ourselves and other people to sit in conflict. No, we're not moving in the right direction. I think you'll agree with me. Okay. We're not moving in the right direction because we're no longer intending to move

in a direction of judging people by the content of their character. I mean, we're moving in the right direction in like a hundred, you know, over the last couple hundred years. I think the last five years have we been moving in the wrong direction. We've kind of turned almost in the opposite direction. Yeah, and we're using Trump as an excuse, right?

This started happening before Trump, by the way. He's a result of this. He's not the cause. But, you know, we're saying, oh, we're in such a state of emergency that we can't have

any sort of discussion that is complicated and might be used by the other side. So we're just going to shut down conversation. I just want to jump in because Erica has to go

and I want to give her a proper outro. Oh, thank you. We thank you so much for coming. Thanks so much for having me. And being a new member of the Comedy Cellar family. Oh, yeah. She has to perform at another club right now,

but she'll be back to perform here. Oh, yes. Tonight? I'll be back tonight. I want to see you perform. Oh, good. She'll be back here. What time? Not at like 1 in the morning or something? I think 10.45. Oh, that's the same as 1 in the morning. You don't have kids. I know. You have a bedtime? And I

sleep all the time because I don't have kids. I know, me too. I love naps. Do you think we shut down conversations because... So anyway, Erica Rhodes, we thank you. So nice to meet you. You're a credit to your generation. Oh, thank you.

I'll tell my mom. I'm going to read your books. I'm really interested. Thank you. Don't you think... Erica Rhodes, ladies and gentlemen. Never mind. Why? We can't give think... Erica Rhodes, ladies and gentlemen. Never mind. We can't give a guest that did our show a proper outro?

Don't you think that most of the time conversations are shut down when you're nervous that you don't have an answer? But we don't have the answer. Why don't we just say we don't have the answer? Why can't we ask questions? Right, but I'm saying the people who refuse to let you ask the questions, doesn't it say in some way that they're nervous they haven't got good answers for you? Like, why would you shut down a conversation when it's just a fastball over the plate

and you're just going to come back with the devastating answer? Because I think people are uncomfortable with uncertainty. I think that's something that's really changed a lot. You're either on one side or the other, and if any sort of middle point, skepticism gets equated with harm, asking questions means you're skeptical, and then that leads to somehow being not inclusive, and that should not be the continuum. For instance, there was a study that came out recently which i didn't read it so i might be getting it wrong but which which made the uh

the provenance of um homosexuality uh less clear to something you're born with is something that i had thought yeah this is changing a lot especially around the trans conversation now let's say the study had come out and and was like in as clear as could be shown, it's like, we found the gene. It is clearly something you're born with. And then I wanted to discuss the fact, let's say somebody went, let's have a conversation. I don't think homosexuality is something you're born with. Nobody would shut down that conversation. Be like, oh, really?

Well, did you see this new study that came out? Like, they would come back with that. They only shut down the conversation. They're going to shut it down now because the science has all of a sudden become a little murky. So, oh, no, they would come back with that. They only shut down the conversation. They're going to shut it down now because the science has all of a sudden become a little murky. So, oh, no, you can't talk about that. What are you, gay bashing? Well, and gay rights was premised on the idea that it was born

that way. Immutable characteristics. So you have to set the landmines. You have to circle the wagons because maybe your answers are not as clear-cut as you thought they would be. But if the answers really were clear, if you could really say, well, no, 2 plus 2 equals 4 and I'll show you, then you wouldn't get angry at somebody for asking,

I think 2 plus 2 equals 5. And I think that's what we're seeing everywhere. You could probably judge the reliability of a particular point by how much you see people reacting emotionally trying to avoid talking about it. That shows they're on quicksand. Okay, Dan had one good question here. The Irishman. Did you see it?

No. It's really long, right? Good night, everybody. What do you think, Dan? It's really long, yeah. Have you seen it? Yes, I've seen it. I thought it was fine. How come nobody asks me if I've seen it? Have you seen it? I have. Okay seen it. I thought it was fine. How come nobody asks me if I've seen it? Have you seen it? I have.

Okay, go ahead. But I didn't finish watching it, so don't worry. Oh, you didn't go to the theater? No, I never go to the theater. I don't ever go to the theater. Can you watch it? Do you have a screener or something? Netflix, Netflix. Oh, it's on Netflix.

I'm so out of it. Oh, I don't like going to the movies. No, I haven't been to the movies in like years. Yeah. Oh, we're going to be friends then. I used to go to the movies. I went to the movies all the time when I had a roommate because I was

trying to avoid him. Not because I disliked him necessarily, but when you have a roommate, you don't want to see your roommate oftentimes. What did you think of the Irishman?

And I would go to movies all the time. Now I don't have a roommate, I never go to the movies. As far as the Irishman is concerned, my feeling is as follows.

It was fine, but I think I'm over... You know, there was kind of a point where they just stopped having Vietnam War movies. It's fine, but I think I'm over... You know, there was kind of a point where they just stopped having Vietnam War movies. It's just all of a sudden America decided it was over Vietnam War movies, and there were no more of them. I feel that way about

gangster movies. I'm over them. I've had enough. And I've certainly had enough with Pesci and De Niro being gangsters. So I'm just... And, you know, it's like we've seen it, we've seen that done better that's right

you know but it was fine that's what you said too we've seen that done better you said I agree yeah this is how I see it

Steve saw it he really liked it that's why I watched it but I thought that it was there were no classic scenes we've seen De Niro Pesci was fantastic

Pesci well Pesci had an advantage the, Pesci had an advantage. The advantage Pesci had was that he was playing a character different than we'd ever seen him play before. Right, that was interesting. But De Niro was playing basically the same De Niro character

with a little bit of a stutter. And Pacino was playing send-up-a-woman guy, you know, in another thing. Hoo-ah! Hoo-ah! And Ray Romano was great. And Ray Romano was great,

but he had a very small part. And he was great. Substantano was great but he had a very small part and he was great substantial so but the so you know yeah you've seen it before and on top of that

it just wasn't that great and Jim Norton was great Jim Norton was great but Dan here's the thing it's the last this is the last hurrah I mean how many more movies are those two gonna make together

so this is our chance to you know it's kind of a farewell almost it's like it's like a recent Stevie Wonder album I mean it's only gonna be so bad it's Stevie Wonder right I mean it's still it you know, it's kind of a farewell almost. It's like a recent Stevie Wonder album. I mean, it's only going to be so bad. It's Stevie Wonder, right?

I mean, it's still pretty good. It doesn't compare to the old Stevie Wonder. That's what I say about it. Okay, anything else? And also, didn't they kind of imply that Kennedy was done in by the mob? Yes, they implied it. Sure they did. They said so.

So, you know, I have a problem with that because I don't believe that theory. No, nor do I. I've been reading about it. Nor is it very believable that, what's his name? Sheeran. Sheeran actually killed Jimmy Hoffa. Wait, I have a question for Megan. Go ahead.

Did Epstein kill himself? Yeah, I think so. Interesting. People are not that organized. Interesting. Conspiracy theorists give people way too much credit for organization. Does it have to be a conspiracy theory, though, if he didn't? Well, if he was murdered.

Is that by definition? You have to sneak somebody into a maximum security prison and sneak them out again with a weapon, and they're going to have to kill someone or whatever. They work from the inside. They pay somebody. But it's a conspiracy. First of all, who gave the order?

Was Clinton gave the order? So he's in on it. Ronan Farrell gave the order. The hitman is in on it. The guards that look the other way are in on it. The coroner would have to be in on it for saying that it was suicide. So many people are in on it. He had so much money. Why didn't he just wait it out and see what happened in trial?

Because I think he knew it was going to happen in trial. And he didn't feel like being in jail. Look, I have days where I don't want to go on and I'm not being accused of such things. He saved a lot of people. He died with a lot of dirt on people. So it was his final... Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

That's what they say. I don't think he was... I know, I'm curious. But Pariel believes in a lot of conspiracy theories. I do not believe in a lot of conspiracy... Do you believe that the cure for cancer is being avoided because Big Pharma

makes too much money? No, but... Do you believe that AIDS was invented by Jewish doctors to infiltrate the black community? That one's true. All right. But I am very skeptical as to whether... Do you believe that Paul McCartney's dead? I do think Tupac might still be alive.

Michael Jackson. I'm kidding. Megan Dom, you were a terrific guest. I hope that we lived up to it. I know you're used to smarter people interviewing. No, you guys are. No, you always say that, or you always imply that. The fact is, I listen to a lot of interviewers, whether it be Ben Shapiro, whether it be Sam Harris.

Sam Harris is good. Whether it be others. You do have a tendency to repeat the same points week after week. But given that, you do have a tendency to repeat the same points week after week, but given that, you... I've said things here I have never said. I can tell you that.

We have to cut them out. Probably for good reason. I think Noam's logic is as good as the people that I just mentioned. Oh, thank you, Dan. Ben Shapiro, a lot of shit Ben Shapiro says,

I think... Well, he's a religious fanatic. What do you want from him? Are imbecilic? Not imbecilic. He's just a religious orthodox. I cannot stand him. I've never listened to him.

Well, he's got a kind of Weasley quality. You don't like Jordan Peterson either, right? Oh, no, I don't dislike him. I've written a lot about Jordan Peterson, but that's a whole other conversation. There's something. He's very sporty. I think there's media malpractice in how he has been mistranslated and misrepresented.

I don't think he's nearly the boogeyman that he's been made out to be. His Canadian accent is off the charts. Yeah, well, it's nice. He must be from the prairies. He must be from the most isolated corner of Saskatoon. It makes Erica's accent sound like a Brooklyn accent. It's like Fargo on steroids. But in a Canadian version.

He says things from time to time. I'm not that familiar with him, which I'm like, wow, that's really smart. I don't think he's any kind of idiot. But there's a slightly huckster quality to him. He's getting high on his own supply lately. I tried to read a little bit of his book one time, and it just reminded me of like a self-help book. There's a new documentary about him.

I actually just wrote a piece about it that's excellent. It's impartial, and it really, really captures this media moment and a lot of the stuff we've been talking about in terms of the way he's been misrepresented, and also he's just sort of buying into his own. The very things he criticizes other people of doing, he's now sort of falling into. We all do that.

It's called The Rise of Jordan Peterson and it's excellent. I highly recommend it. Okay, that's a good way to end. Okay, thank you very, very much for coming. We want to stay and see his show. We also give our guests dinner and drinks, if you would like. And a date with Dan Natterman, if you would like.

And a date with Dan Natterman if you're interested. How many drinks is involved in that? As many as you want. As many as you need to go on the date. We also like to tell our listeners that they can contact us at podcast at comedyseller.com Bless you.

And follow us on Instagram at livefromthetable. How come you never say that to me? You say things that are so smart, it just surprises me. Say that again? You never said that to me. That you say things that are so smart? Sometimes, Perrielle, you say things that are so smart.

You know when you'll get complimented for me? When you say something which takes me by surprise. Right now, I know this is not nice to say, or it's just very blunt. Right now, I feel like, rightly or wrongly, that I don't even need to ask you what you think about anything. I know, I just know what your opinion is. It's totally

predictable. And that doesn't mean you're wrong. No, I know I'm not wrong. So that's why you don't get the credit you deserve, because I'm usually taking myself, oh shit, I didn't, oh, good for her. No, but it's like not wrong. Yeah, so that's why you don't get the credit you deserve because I'm usually taking myself, oh, shit, I didn't, you know, oh, good for her. No, but it's like, oh, she's right. Like, you know, you just... That's my ringtone, by the way.

Oh, she's right? Oh, she's right. Okay, good night, everybody.