The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - The State of New York with James Altucher

Episode Date: August 21, 2020

Entrepreneur, investor, author and co-owner of the comedy club, STAND UP NY, James Altucher discusses whether or not New York City is dead and responds to being called a putz by Jerry Seinfeld in The New York Times.    

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the Table, the official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy cellar. Coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog and on the Ryecast Podcast Network. Dan Natterman here with Noam Dwarman, the owner of the Comedy Cellar. And yes, the Comedy Cellar still exists and it will be back doing shows, hopefully within the months ahead. Noam Dorman, the owner of The Comedy Cellar. And yes, The Comedy Cellar still exists,

and it will be back doing shows, hopefully, within the months ahead. Peter Lashenbrand, the producer, is here, and we have as our guest the great James Altucher. He's done the show several times. James is a former hedge fund manager. He is the writer of the best-selling book, Choose Yourself.

He is part owner of Stand Up New York Comedy Club. And most notably, he wrote an article that has gone viral about the future of the city of New York. The future is grim, according to James Altucher. Welcome, James, once again. You guys. Well, James, James, James. Before you get into it, can I give you some late breaking news you might not have seen? Yes, always. I don't know if you can see it. The headline is it was just sent to me by my friend Harry Enten. New York State rules bans ticketed music events at bars. I saw this. I cannot believe how they keep pouring it on yeah so let me just read it so uh uh the new regulations uh

says all other forms of live entertainment such as exotic dancing comedy shows are not permissible currently regardless of phase regardless of phase meaning that even phase four and i mean i'm fucking i've been pretty patient through this whole thing but now i'm getting mad because we spent a lot of money relying on the previous regulations and i'm talking i don't know 60 70 000 the previous regulation said up said um there was no specific prohibition of outdoor indoor indoor, on-premises, live music, entertainment exclusively for customers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This was the explicit regulation. So, of course, you go around, you start spending the money in order to get ready for it.

Hands-free toilets, hands-free sinks, door opening, new lights, plexiglass shield, plexiglass partitions. I mean, you name it, right? And then they drop this. Fuck them already, right? So anyway, so go ahead, James. So maybe you're right. So you wrote an article saying what? No, so, and I almost regret the article just because it's engendered so much hate that people in denial have kind of aimed all of their hate and anguish towards me. And it's been brutal the past few days. But I basically said, look, New York City is like a slingshot. You pull it back, we bounce back stronger. But if you pull a slingshot back too much, it's going to break. And here's what's happened. You know, the average restaurant, for instance, only had 16 days of cash on hand in February.

Now we're closed down five months and 30 to 50 percent of the restaurants in New York City are already out of business. But that's not it. All the store, all the all the companies, you know, you have big companies like JP Morgan, Citigroup, Google, many more. They're all going remote. Nobody's coming back to the offices. You look at Midtown or any office space in New York, it's all the buildings are 80 to 90% empty right now. And these are just two factors. You have record high vacancies. There's 13,000 vacancies, the highest ever in New York City. But guess what? It's going to be about 400,000, 500,000 once we start getting evictions, once people don't go back to colleges.

There's 600,000 college students not coming back in the fall. So all of these things added up, and I listed more things, but whatever. All of these things added up. There's a big problem. They're not coming back so fast. And deficits in New York City are going up. We're paying for healthcare, social services, all these things that New York City is good at, but the deficits are going up. The revenues are going down because you can't collect taxes from people who move away. You can't collect taxes from the offices that close down.

You can't collect taxes from the 7,000 restaurants that are going to close. And the math doesn't add up. And it's not like, oh, just wait a semester. Just wait six months. Broadway will open back up. No, people don't wait around. Everyone leaves. And that's exactly, it's not me suggesting they leave.

Everyone has left. 420,000 New Yorkers have left since March and more are going to leave now that you have rules like this, new rules every single day. You can't operate a business. No one comes here for $38 avocado toast for breakfast. We come here for business, for opportunities, for culture, for friendship,

and all of that's going away right now. So- James, first, I'd like to say that I was horrified by the amount of hatred- for culture, for friendship, and all of that's going away right now. So, James, first, I'd like to say that I was horrified by the amount of hatred that has been brought your way. I mean, you were entitled to state your predictions without people shooting the messenger. I wasn't even saying predictions. I was stating the facts, just like I stated here. You're also stating predictions because you were saying that even once COVID, say COVID is cured and there's a vaccine

and it's a good vaccine and it works, you still don't think that New York is going to bounce back. Because the problems I just mentioned have nothing anymore to do with the virus. The virus was obviously real. It's done its job. It's still here. But

these problems now, the economy is different from the virus. These problems now are economic. We've all seen many of our employees, whether at the Cellar or Stand Up New York or other businesses I'm involved in, they've all gone remote. We've all seen our neighbor move. We've all seen stores that we know and love close down. Restaurants, all of our favorite restaurants, my guess, have closed down, or at least some of them have closed down. We've all seen rules like this made today, over five months after the lockdown, just arbitrarily.

There's two points here, James. The point one is obviously New York cannot function in the pandemic. There's going to be restrictions on everything. The second point is, is will it come back once the pandemic is done? Let me ask you a question. Broadway, let's say a Broadway show closes down because Broadway is not opening up to at least March of next year, maybe even longer. So you're at a show. How does a Broadway show stay in business?

How do the actors keep jobs? How do the ecosystem, the unions, the labor, the stagehands, how do they keep jobs? How do the restaurants around Broadway, how do they stay open? Their entire business was filling up on Wednesdays and Saturdays for Broadway. How do,

how did, and I hate to ask it, how did the investors of these productions stay in business or trust the next production? How did the landlords, how did the union employees, what, what do they do,

Dan? They wait. Yeah. I can, I, I don't want to, so I have a lot of questions, but can we, can we, can we go to the end first? And then I want to go back to go through really step by step everything you laid out. So New York 2022.

Do you see the Statue of Liberty buried in the beach in Charlton Heston? Damn no. What do you see as New York City in 2022? How would you describe it? Well, I think it's a great- No Broadway, no restaurants, no what? No, I think all of these things come back, but I mean, it's not like 4,000 restaurants are gonna go out of business and everyone's gonna suddenly wake up and say,

man, this is my chance now to open up my dream, a pizza restaurant in the middle of New York, because you don't know if it's going to get closed down again. You don't know if you're going to go out of business. It's expensive to go through all the regulation and licensing. And then you might go out of business a month later if there's a third wave or second wave or whatever. So where do I see it?

I see it one-tenth of where it is now, not to mention a collapse. One-tenth? You mean that number, seriously, not hyper it one, one 10th of where it is now, not to mention a collapse. You mean that number seriously, not hyperbolically one 10th. Yeah. I mean, I will 90% of restaurants go out of business. No, but you're going to see a lot of businesses, a lot right now, midtown Manhattan, which is fully open for office workers is 90% empty. There's all the people who, you know, 90% of the people who would have worked there in February are not there right now. And that's because of remote. And it's because of companies worried about coronavirus and liability,

but the remote thing, people say, Oh, New York's always come back. There's something very different now, which is that even take 2008, this is going to sound. I want you to answer my question for us. Don't go. I really want to, I really want to actually get, I don't even take 2008. Wait, wait, don't. I want you to answer my question first. Don't go. I really want to actually get, I mean, I'm trying to nail you down because, not because I'm trying to be antagonistic. Sure, no, no.

I appreciate it. Exactly. Like what will, like New York's population is what, 8 million now approximately in New York City? Yeah. But what do you expect? You don't expect it to be 1 million. What do you expect it to be?

Yeah, I don't know. I can't say. I would say somewhere between half a million and a million less than it is now, which is significant. So we've been half a million to a million less than we've been now, I believe, in our history. I don't know. I don't know if you've had a – I don't know if New York City – when I say you, I was born in New York City. I grew up and lived around here all my life. I've lived here since 1994

i don't know if we've had a a 15 drop and then okay if we've had that before then i'll say 2 million i'm not i don't know to make a prediction all i know is the math right now is is broken even in the 70s you didn't really have a significant drop even in 2008 you didn't have a significant drop 9 11 i live two you didn't have a significant drop. 9-11, I live two blocks away from the World Trade Center. I can tell you there was no drop. But now there's a drop and there's a reason. It's because we're doing this show on Zoom

and I'm seeing you guys in perfect videos if you're here. Bandwidth has never been like this before. So I looked it up. You're correct. I was exaggerating, but I'm not totally off. Citywide, there were 8.1 million people in 2010.

I believe it's higher now. So let's say it's 8.5, whatever. But in 1940, there were 7.5 million. So we've gotten up by a million, I'm guessing. Okay, my guess is though the deficit has grown a lot faster than the population. And what you're gonna have now

is the sharpest drop in tax revenues ever. Don't forget 1% of New York City delivers 40% of the tax revenues of New York City. Meanwhile, we're billions more in deficit than de Blasio expected. And I'm not pointing any fingers or blame. It just is what it is. But that's fractured. The city does need to pay for health care.

It needs to pay for its universities. It needs to pay for social services, of which New York City is well known for. We, you know, in commercial real estate owners, they're heavily in debt. That means all the buildings are going to end up bankrupt or in litigation, which means people can't work. Everyone says, oh, let let the rich people go. This is a rich person problem. It's not actually rich people just pick up and go. They've already left. This is a problem of all the workers who worked in offices, who worked on Broadway, who worked in the four to 7,000 restaurants that will close.

I think it's an interesting question. If we can just zone in a little bit on the, on the point you made about zoom and about bandwidth, how important is it for people to work in physical proximity with each other? Now we've always had tech, the phone, we've had conference, the humble conference call has been around for a long time. Video conferencing is not brand new. It is better now, I'll grant you that. So, but even given all that, how important is it for productivity and for psychological health to work in physical proximity with each other?

Look, that's a great question. And this is, I mean, Zoom has added something like 400 million new users in the past five months. So we don't really know the answer. Dan, as you say, it's not new, but it is new. For 400 million people now, it's brand new. You have no choice now, but... But companies now, I would say companies would encourage employees to come back, but companies now are very unsure about, A, their liabilities. If someone comes back and gets coronavirus, that is a very unclear issue and they're nervous about it. And they realized, oh my gosh, if we don't need to rent, you know, six of seven floors in the time life building, we're going to save so much more on employees weren't really that productive anyway. Even in the office, we're going to save so much money by having everybody be remote.

And you know what? People aren't complaining. Some people want to go to the office, but other people want to move to Phoenix, Arizona or Dallas or South Carolina, wherever they want to go to the office but other people want to move to phoenix arizona or dallas or south wherever they want to move people are moving now and they're getting new york salaries but in cheaper locations but the news is not all bad and that this is a later point but opportunity is going to get more dispersed throughout the country than it currently is right now opportunities in new york city or la or San Francisco. But companies are not anxious to have employees back. Again, Citigroup, JP Morgan, Google, Twitter, they've all said employees indefinitely are not coming back. Morgan Stanley,

employees indefinitely not coming back. And these are just a handful of companies. Hundreds of companies have said that. Noam, what's your sense? And obviously, you can't run a comedy club in a restaurant by Zoom. But what's your sense about, you can't run a comedy club in a restaurant by zoom but what's your sense about say a law firm do we need all the associates in the office writing their legal memos um you know meeting with clients yeah well i don't i don't think you need them to meet with clients but i think that it's uh they're gonna find uh very quickly that having a bunch of people on the honor system all over their homes with their wives and kids running around and not being able to easily talk to each other and not socialize and not go out to lunch together is not going to be any kind of optimal way of organizing. That's what I think. I agree. It's not optimal, but what will end up happening

is that the cost savings will make up for the less than optimal. And now people won't be, maybe there'll be one week a month, hey, you have to come into the office, or maybe there'll be two days a week. Because companies, you can be sure, Noam, if we're getting these rules like you just read just on the last minute here, and the rules are changing every day, they're going to force companies to do rotation of employees only two days a week. They're going to force office buildings to be only at 25% capacity. They don't want to suddenly have a spike again, and then everybody accuses them, look, you guys. Okay. me so we got i want to

be more systematic here so we got to talk about two worlds here one world is covid is always is on you know always is still a risk we're between waves we're not sure we don't have you know that and that will always and that's one world and the other world is there is no more COVID. We have a vaccine and we're done with it. And, you know, and then the question is what that's changed because of COVID will stay and what will begin to revert. And I think you're right that certain, there'll be less need for some office space. And we've been in a transition period with retail space as well. So, you know, but that immediately makes me wonder, is this unique to New York or is this every city?

I would say it's every first tier city. Okay, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, New York, London. It's every first tier city, but New York is gonna be especially hit hard because, and San Francisco perhaps, but you know, New York is the financial industry and the media industry. And those are two industries where you really don't need to be in the office. They are sending all of their employees remote. I'm sure you both, everybody here knows people who have picked up and moved. We've all seen Facebook

status updates like, well, I never thought the day would arrive, but after 25 years in New York, I'm finally moving. We've all seen those status updates. Okay. So let's, so let's go with it. By the way, I don't see it. I don't, I don't see people 18 to 45 wanting to work and from home, never, and just never get out of the house. I, I,

I just can't see that. I agree. Young people, by the way, are not going to leave and young people will move in. Yeah. Wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

wait, wait, you said 420,000 people have left New York. I think that's what you said. Right. But that, those aren't necessarily permanently. Some of them will turn to permanent,

but we all know that the Hamptons people who didn't wait out the pandemic and they left and brought coronavirus to the Hamptons and whatever, screw them. So we don't actually know. Those are just people of means who've said, why the fuck do I want to stay here closed down?

Let me go someplace where there's some grass and seawater if I'm going to be doing nothing. Right. But I'll take a random example. There was a Facebook group I saw the other day called Into the Unknown. It was for people getting ready to move and they're asking for advice from each other. It got to around 9,000 members in two days after it opened up. And that's, of course, just a percentage of people who had even heard of that group. So these are people in Manhattan or New York City picking up and moving. That's an enormous number considering 13,000 vacancies currently is an all-time record. And again, that doesn't even count the vacancies we're going to experience when not every student

comes back to college or when not every employee comes back after coronavirus is over. I mean, again, the reason I disconnected from the coronavirus is because it's already happened. Like Broadway's already been shut for five months and we know it's gonna be shut till March. Who is waiting around? Some people will leave. Some people will pick up and where things left off.

But there's also structurally, there's legal agreements, there's evictions, there's bankruptcy. Okay, stop at evictions. Because this is, everything you say, I'm playing devil's advocate, but everything you say kind of implies a static situation. So why would anybody pursue evictions when they know they have no tenants coming in behind? I don't know, but I, I see people waiting around for,

to pursue evictions. Like I think they're bluffing. That could be, that could be. And I hope you're right, but they have to, I mean, not every single one of them,

but like what you only evict if the opportunity cost of keeping this tenant is, you know, too high. And that's only, you can only think that if you can rent it out to somebody else. If you can't, you make a deal. So let's say you're 100% right. Let's say there's zero evictions, which I'm taking an extreme. Yeah, there won't be. One in four people right now haven't paid rent in residential apartments between March and now, you know, during this eviction moratorium. So at the very least, there is lost revenues to, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of landlords, not to mention the fact their tenants have been in trouble because they haven't been able to pay rent. This, again, all leads to loss of revenues throughout the city, loss of tax-based revenues at the exact same time that deficits are skyrocketing. So you're

going to have the next several years having a reduction, a massive reduction in city services, not to mention the bankruptcies and so on that are occurring just because of what has already occurred, not even making a prediction about the future. Yeah, I agree with that. You might have that. Of course, you just expect that there's going to be a big bailout from Washington, especially if Biden wins. Yeah, no, I agree. If Biden wins, there's going to be a big... And look, even if Trump wins, New York is a city. It's an unusual situation for a Republican. So either way, I think there should be some help after the election.

But what does the help do? They're not like the most effective at giving help, for instance. And what are they going to do? Give it to the mayor? And what's the mayor going to do with it? Is he going to pay everyone's rent? That gets complicated. So maybe that does happen. But again, already,

the restaurants have gone out of business. Already, the companies have said remote now forever. Already, people have moved who were high up people at those companies, the people involved in hiring and making these decisions. So a lot of things have happened already, even if nothing new happens from here on out. Let me ask you a question because you understand finances and I don't. But in the 2008 crisis, a lot of money went up in smoke, mortgages, values of property, whatever it was. That to me seems like maybe it's analogous to a bunch of uncollected rents. Essentially, the value of these has gone up in smoke and the banks are going to have to eat or bring down their mortgages or make deals, whatever it is. But we did come back from

2008. We managed all that loss in money and value and it built back up. Well, don't forget though, they did give an enormous amount. Right now, the stimulus package has been focused on individuals, on unemployment insurance, as it should be on industries all throughout the country. 2008 was very specifically about banks and bailing out banks. Each bank got a $20 billion check from the government, plus benefits from the Federal Reserve, negative interest rates from the Federal Reserve, which means they got money all throughout for years from the Federal Reserve, negative interest rates from the Federal Reserve, which means they got money all throughout for years from the Federal Reserve. And at the time, there was no Zoom.

The bandwidth, the average bandwidth per user was two and a half megabits a second. We're going along right now here at about 300 megabits per second. I got it. I think I just realized what I'm having trouble with. I think you're saying two different things at once and I think that they need to be handled differently,

and I'm not sure they're connected. If the Zoom revolution has changed fundamentally the desire or the necessity of people to live in New York City, then New York City is doomed, even if it's rolling in dough. People don't want to be there. They don't want or need to be there. They're not going to be there. If they want to be in New York, then the financial thing will just have to work itself out. But so long as people do want to be working in New York and need to be working in New York, that will pass. It has to pass.

One is really not related to the other. Well, it's related in one sense is that one thing that the pandemic has done is it's gotten people used to working from home, that they might have not been even thought about it before, but they're not related. But I'm saying that if New York's finances are, if New York goes bankrupt, but everybody still wants to live and be in New York City, it will just ripple through the system somehow and eventually we'll come out of the other end of it.

But if nobody wants to be in New York or needs to be in New York anymore, then even if we have a huge surplus right now, eventually we're fucked. I agree they're disconnected, but they're also connected in an interesting way, which is that the virus has accelerated everything that would have happened eventually. So let's say remote was a trend that was going to happen over 15 years, and now it's happening over six months. That is not enough for New York City to buffer itself. And on top of that, you have the restaurants out of business, Broadway. How do you know the restaurants are really out of business? That's what I wanted to ask you. Well, well well okay first off you just see it walking around at least the upper west side and upper east side and what do you see because i haven't been around

i i see some stores you still have the signs hey we'll open up when we can but many of my favorite stores restaurants whatever uh are for lease like You know the Caradad, the place across the street? Out of business. They didn't have to go out of business. They could have waited for another stimulus, but just out of business. It's every other restaurant on the Upper West Side is out of business.

Yelp. Yelp has said up to 50% of their restaurant customers are out of business. Now, that doesn't necessarily translate to 50% in New York City. I think it'll be a little less in New York City, but it will be enough that hundreds of thousands of jobs will be affected. Tourism is affected. Obviously, cultural centers closed means tourism is affected, which is a major source of revenues. Why do you think they're out of business?

How do you think that happened? I mean, usually you go out of business when the bill collectors are at your door or the landlord or eviction. But you know what? That's a great question. You and I both probably got PPP loans for our storefront businesses. I actually don't know the answer to that question. I just see. I just see what the signs for lease on every other place. And I see what Yelp says. And I see the GoFundMes where the employees are not getting paid. And so they set up the GoFundMes. You know, it's just, I don't really, to be honest,

I'm surprised at how many restaurants I've just personally seen are out of business. But something doesn't ring. I mean, something is fishy about all that to me, but those are the numbers are there. Yeah. Perry, you say what?

I just, I don't see New York city not coming back in some fascinating way. I mean, the MoMA's not gonna close. The artists and the actors and the comics and the theater and the bars and everything and the grit and the glam and the young creative people. I mean, there's no fucking way that this city is going to be obliterated forever i mean i i agree young people like it's people are going to move here young

people are going to move here uh you know people in their 20s are going to move here it's exciting it'll be a different type of culture and it it's going to be affordable again. I mean, you know, one of the things, I was born in New York and I've lived in New York on and off my entire life. Me too. And, you know, one of the things that you hear people like us talk about and lament all the time is that it's gotten so unaffordable for the very people who have always made New York so interesting. I agree.

Like, look, it's not like we're going to be washed into the water, but there's going to be a major problem, which is that New York City is not going to be able to afford itself. So does that mean bankruptcy? Does that mean some kind of bailout? Again, what kind of pause happens

because so many stores, restaurants are either bankrupt or remote? What happens to the artistic community if after a year of closure, people finally start to go away? Do people invest in the next wave of productions for Broadway or does that change? The culture changes.

Eventually COVID is going to go away, right? Eventually, whether it's a year or nine, or whatever it is, eventually COVID will pass, right? I'm assuming even in all of this that it's just gone now. I'm just assuming that. And I'm just working with the data right now, which is why it's hard to make predictions. But just looking at the data now,

you can see already new york city can't afford its expenses and colleges i mean colleges just in the past week went all completely remote in new york city they weren't a week ago and now they are we just got the message today indoor you know comedy you know dancing all these things indefinitely closed or until further notice. Hey, James, you want to buy a comedy club? I was going to ask you the same question. I think that Noam had essentially the right idea. Short term, I don't think anyone can argue that New York has had some challenges ahead.

Long term, I think it all comes down to what Noam was saying. Do people want to be here? Is there a need for large cities? I think is a question that's relevant to this discussion. Why do large cities exist? They exist because people want to be in proximity to each other because it's more efficient for people to work in buildings because you know the cultural aspects of it if there's still a need for cities despite zoom zoom zoom might we don't know what effect zoom is going to have on i guess on office work but people still want to live in a city environment you're not going to have you like for example just the comedy let's just take the comedy world, for example, where you can go to the comedy cellar and Dave Chappelle drops in and Chris Rock drops in.

That simply cannot happen anywhere else. You're absolutely right. I'm not saying the population of New York City vaporizes. I'm just saying that. The utility of a city is that you have 100 world-famous comics that all live here that might stop by your club or Noam's Club. Well, first off, some comedians have already moved out. Maybe not a lot, but I've seen comedians move from L.A. to all across New York City to all across. I know well-known comedians who are working for Grubhub right now, delivering food.

The infrastructure wasn't there to support artistic endeavors like this. It was for the high end, not for low end. But again, it's going to be a younger audience. There's not going to be as many jobs, so you can't move here. As Perry said, things have to be much more affordable. It's going to take a while for that to happen because the buyers of buildings spent a lot of money. So it's going to take a while for things to really become more affordable. I would also add that in an increasingly environmentally conscious world, cities are the most environmentally clean ways to live, you know, because you can walk to the store, you can walk everywhere. We, I mean, per person, our carbon footprints are lower than they would be where you are.

Yeah, but I don't... Five, 10 miles to go to the grocery store. But nobody makes a living decision based on that. Sure, but also to Noam's point, like, I think that... Sorry, I think that the creative people and the people who are really the heart and soul of the city are dying to get back to doing what they do and because they love it. I agree. I am dying also.

Like it's not pleasant that these comedy clubs are closed. It's horribly unpleasant none of this is unpleasant none of this is what i want none of this am i recommending oh my god i'm not from you have to understand james's point is that uh he's not all or none if if one or two out of 10 people doesn't resume their previous life, but simply maintains the life that they've taken up during COVID, 10 or 20% is a drastic effect on New York City. And it's going to have all sorts of repercussions, financial and otherwise. And we don't know how then, and maybe that will allow another 20% to just move in and start afresh, or maybe they'll never come back, right? You don't know. It'll still be New York City. I don't think, I don't see the doom

that James's article predicted, but it's certainly not crazy. Well, what is the doom that I am really saying? I'm really saying business won't come back. So that means lots of jobs will be lost. Some culture will be gone because you can't support cultural productions forever with a lot of uncertainty. So it's going to transform. But the big factor is that New York City won't be able to afford itself. It will require some sort of bailout. It will require new leadership, which is not really happening for another year and a half at least.

Now, hold on a second, James. The headline of your piece, and maybe you didn't write the headline, is New York City is dead forever. Yes. Now you don't sound like dead forever now. You sound like New York City will sound like dead forever now you sound like new york city will be limping forever that would that's like where there will be changes and let's wait and see yeah okay i'm i'm defining death as the the new york city that was steadily growing and and building and and thriving is is gone forever it's it's and by forever forever, that could be 10 years.

It could be 20 years. I don't know. It's hard to make a prediction like that. To Perry's point, young people will move in. They're not going to have jobs at first, so they're going to have to figure that out. And maybe the remote aspect of jobs now is going to help them. So who knows?

I think that's unpredictable. We do know that New York's finances are going to turn upside down and we know that many people have already left and many more people will be leaving and many restaurants storefronts you know clothing stores production you know uh cultural things uh uh big corporations small corporations they're gonna be going or changing this is this is what we know right now these are like this is like the facts right now. Where does that lead? It's not like everyone's just waiting for COVID to go away.

It's already fractured. People have already left. And so does that get bigger? Even if it doesn't get more, it's still fractured. We're still not going to be able to pay for New York City's, you know, great resources. Oh, fuck. All right. But I don't mean to be depressing because in the sense, nationwide, it does mean people are going to realize that opportunity is going to be a lot

more dispersed across the country. Now, I'm a New Yorker. I live in New York. I have a comedy club. You have a comedy club. We want things to be as good as possible. Maybe it means less competition will be good. Now, for restaurants, by the way, that's not the case. Less competition for restaurants is often bad because people move to where there's lots of restaurants. People move to where there's lots of theater. Competition's good in some places. But maybe for comedy clubs, it's different.

No, I don't know. I mean, are there many comedy clubs as it is? I don't want less competition. No, look at Flickr Street. You benefit, and McDougal, you benefit by so many comedy clubs around there. People go to the street for comedy, and then they pick.

Whereas Upper West Side- I think they benefit from us. We were there booming, and then they opened. But think they benefit from us. We were there booming and then they opened. But anyway. I agree. I agree. I think James is... But you're right.

But it probably does create an ecosystem. I shouldn't be so smug. And I don't want this to happen. This is the problem. Getting like even my sister is like trashing me on Twitter. Like I don't want this to happen. I'm born here, been here all my life. You know, it's not good.

But I don't know. Go ahead, Dan. Go ahead. I think your headline was a bit strong. You're entitled to it. But it seems like your headline is a lot stronger than what you're saying. Dead forever is a lot different than there are challenges ahead. Well, how do you define dead forever?

Because I don't think we can- Dead forever is Detroit. I mean, not even Philadelphia. Dead forever, I mean, Atlantis, I guess. James, I don't know how you define dead forever, but I know that there's nothing worse than dead forever. So if you're using the word dead forever, that is the worst case scenario, almost by definition. And I don't think you're explaining a worst case scenario, but it makes a good headline. I will say there is a path, an easy path to Detroit.

I mean, Detroit at least had an industry that you had, that you couldn't go remote. Right. And that industry died in the financial crate. It went remote, but just, yeah.

But to other people, yeah. Yeah, no, it went overseas. I mean, is there something that can be done, do you think, to- In James' scenario, the people don't want to live here. They're not going to live here. So why would you try to save something that people don't want? Well, if that's what- In other words, if we don't need cities because of Zoom, because people want fresh air and the country,

and they want to work in front of their computer, then we don't need cities and let New York go the way of the horse and buggy. Okay, but now I'll play devil's advocate. I don't believe that's the case, by the way. By the way, I don't believe that's the case either. But I think corporations combined with Zoom are making it the case. Because don't forget, not only are they protecting against COVID, but they're experiencing great cost reductions by having people go remote. And that's going to change as well as people's temperament about the lifestyle.

I agree, younger people will move in, but I always get back to the question, at what point do we become so fractured that you can't pick up the pieces in the same way, that we can't put Broadway back together the way it was, that we can't put the restaurant industry or the financial industry or the media industry, you know, like for instance, book publishers, I was talking to, you know, random editors working for my publisher. None of them ever need to go back to work again. They've said, I've talked to people in pretty much every industry, as I'm sure you guys have also, they're enjoying life, many of them working from home or they've already left. I don't know if you know people have already left. I do. Listen, I don't know if this is considered some sort of bigotry or this

is actually insightful. I don't know, but I'm going to say it because it just occurred to me that when I was a kid, a lot of the gay community in New York came from all over the country because they knew that in New York, they could make a life for themselves. New York had one of the only, New York and San Francisco, the all open, and I'm sure that fueled Broadway and all kinds of stuff. But I wonder, it's interesting to me in a way now that thinking about it, now that homosexuality is so well accepted everywhere, might that also change things? Like you don't need to go to New York anymore. You can be happy in Podunk. This is why I think opportunity, and this is to the benefit of the country,

I think opportunity is going to be decentralized in a way that it hasn't been before. I still agree cities are the place where ideas are exchanged. That's how innovation happens. But innovation can't happen if the cities go bankrupt and there's no jobs for young people and there's an education is cut off at the knees. It's just harder.

So, yes, dead forever. Was that strong? Yeah, I don't think the city is going to sink into the ocean, but I do. I can't see a path to getting back to quote unquote, a new normal. One thing is for sure. Everything dies eventually. And New York is no exception, but I think, I think it still has a couple of centuries left in it. It's been around since 1620 or so. I think it'll last another couple of centuries. So let me ask you guys, in good health, I should. What's a path back? And I'm really

thinking just technically in terms of these industries, in terms of being able to afford the services that are the reason many people do move to New York. What do you think are solutions? Because I am thinking about solutions. I have a bunch of mayoral candidates coming on my podcast. Like I am thinking about- I go back to what i said about 10 minutes ago the city will survive if people want to live here if people don't want to live here we can't force them to do so and let the city die because people no longer want it they no longer need it it's no longer necessary well obviously i think i think I think the solution, the risk is that there's so many

strings in place, contracts, unions, indexed wages, that the natural process of realignment and innovation will struggle under, like for instance, we had this when COVID first

hit, we were unable to close because there were so many rules about closing. Do you remember? There were so many rules about closing my accounts and my lawyers. I'm like, no, no, you can't close. I'm like, I want to close. People are going to get sick, but you have to comply with this. You have to comply with that. And you have to comply with that. So, you know, New York will become more affordable. Well, that if it's more affordable, then that should might mean that we'll be, we don't need the same high wages. So maybe if somebody wants to lower wages, that'll be fine because the standard of living won't be affected. But wait, there's a contract and there's a union. So the mayor is going to have to, I think,

to make this work, he's going to have to be prepared to really cut a lot of regulation right now, zoning or whatever it might be, just to let things, let water find its own level. Because all these rules are written based on a reality that doesn't exist anymore. And if this were the reality, they would have never been written. No, isn't the major issue here just the structural, as you said earlier, can Zoom replace? No, it will replace some jobs. Pardon?

Creative destruction? Is that that guy, Chopin something? Chopin, I don't know. Creative, not Chopin. But anyway, New York is going to need, you're going to have to let,

I saw the analogy of a kite. Like sometimes you got to, sometimes you got to keep the kite close to keep it in the air, but sometimes you just got to let the string out and just let it go. And I think they're going to have to find ways to let New York,

let the magic happen of the marketplace. I mean, New York is amazing. And what if there is no bailout? Because let's say New York City probably needs about $10 billion. What if there is no bailout? And this is say New York City probably needs about $10 billion. What if there is no bailout? And this is honestly where I can't predict. I don't know what it looks like for New York City. I was here in the 70s and it was horrible. And we already see crime shooting up.

I don't even mention that in my article because I assume when COVID's over- Schumpeter, Joseph Schumpeter, creative destruction. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. So I'm just trying to think, what does it look like if there's no bailout and everything, it, it, it doesn't get worse, but, but all of these things have already been happening. So, you know, there's no, there's going to be much less in tax revenues. There's going to be much higher deficits. There's no bailout. What does that look like? It doesn't really look like the 70s. I mean, right now we're heading, just in terms of the crime, we're starting to head in that direction.

But let's just say that even calms down. And we're seeing, you know, policemen retire early. We're seeing all sorts of things. But let's just say that all goes away. What does happen when you have a bankrupt city and a financial industry that doesn't return? I don't know. I know that Wall Street is responsible for a tremendous amount of the revenue of the city. And I don't know how that works.

People are living outside of the city. I don't know how that affects our actual revenue from the industry. I don't know that stuff. You might have a feel for that. A lot of people, by the way, talking about with glee about the rich leaving and now poor people can't afford the city. The bottom line is, if people want to live here, it's going to be expensive. Yeah. And the reality is, if the rich people don't want to live here, your city sucks. A great city, necessarily, people want to live there, and so necessarily, rich people want to live there. sayings that are basically like business fortune cookie sayings that I sometimes don't, that I sometimes roll my eyes at, but he does have one that actually bears here, which is,

when was the last time a poor person gave you a job? And I think there's a lot of truth there. You get rid of all the rich. I mean, who exactly is going to pay your middle-class check? Somebody poor? Exactly. And by the way, it's not like the rich are suffering in this. It's people who worked on Broadway. It's people who worked in the restaurants. It's people who worked on Wall Street who are not necessarily rich.

It's people who worked in building maintenance. Yeah. James, what's this future of your club, Stand Up New York, as you see it? You've been doing shows in the park, by the way, which I've done a couple, microphone-free because you need a permit, but still not bad. But in any case, where do you see the future of Stand Up New York,

your club? I don't really know because, I mean, even if when things open, they're going to say 25% capacity. And as you guys know, on a Saturday night, you need to fill up capacity. You calculate your rent based on the fact that you assume you're going to fill up on Saturday and Friday nights. And, you know, I don't know what happens to any indoor dining place, any restaurant when this is all said and done and all the bailouts are over and we're in this, you know, new world after this and people have, will they return to the same lifestyles? But if they have to or don't,

or if there's rules, I don't know what happens to any place. It doesn't seem like they really care. It doesn't seem like they're really thinking about us when they make these decisions. They assume we'll figure it out in tread water or there's going to be a bailout. So let me, I'm thinking about what,

so I had, when I had our website made years ago, we, I use a company called Blue Fountain Media. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. Yeah. And they're like, they're like, I don't know if they're still around, but they were a very big internet design company. They had maybe 40, 50 people in cubicles designing websites. And I would go in there and there was all sorts of bustle and activity there.

This one would come to this cubicle. Hey, come over here. We take a look at this, you know. And I'm trying to imagine how that could possibly work, even in an industry which is already at computers, you know. Yeah. And I don't think it actually could. They still need to be in the same room. I don't know i mean collaboration

software for companies like that have gone through 20 generations in the past year like it's enormous what what slack microsoft teams maybe you're right board uh all these companies can can do monday.com i use uh there's so many collaboration tools many companies are have been fully remote uh i'm involved in several companies with 100-plus employees where it's all remote now and people are fine. What kind of companies? What kind of industry? One's in the law enforcement space. Another is a software tech company.

Another is in the pharmaceutical space. Everything is space. That's a word that tech people use. In the law enforcement space. You wouldn't say that, you know, unless it was tech involved. We don't want to cry, James. So so so a few years ago, brainstorming, we came up with an idea for a device that shoots out a metal cable and wraps you within 20 feet of where you're standing. So if you say – if an officer says hands up and you don't put your hands up,

we could wrap you. It's called wrap technologies. We recently went public, and we're being tested out in almost every police agency in the country and 27 other countries. That's right out of Batman. Yeah. It's a, it's a totally non-lethal.

It's the only non-lethal weapon because taser is known to be lethal. This one doesn't hurt. I've been wrapped a million times. It's not, it doesn't hurt, but if you don't want to hear about your sex life, this is a, yeah,

I see it online here with Maria, Maria Bartiromo. Yeah. So hot. I'm going on her show Tuesday. She's so hot. I'll go out on her show Tuesday. She's really pretty. Anyway, yeah, that's a wrap. New Taserlight technology targets with rope.

Oh, good luck with that. That sounds... We literally save lives every day. Obviously, non-lethal technology is very important, especially nowadays, you know, with the focus on police brutality and police killings. But just, you know, in general, we need good non-lethal technology. So that's what you've been doing. Stop me from bombing or killing on the comedy stage.

We have, is is um is emily uh standing by we have um emily esposito is joining us briefly not yet the daughter of pardon not yet okay so what else james what about uh what do you what do you see about i know you're into things. What about herd immunity? New York has herd immunity, you think? Yeah. Well, it's hard to say because you see with all these states that seem fine, they opened up their universities and then they get this spike in cases. And then there's the, what does immunity even mean? Do we really know that this virus hasn't even been around a year? We don't know what immunity means, which is why I don't quite look. We all hope for a vaccine. But do you guys trust that we'll find one? I mean, there's no vaccine for other coronaviruses.

I think it's absurd. Thank you, Dr. Ashenbrand. What are some of the other coronaviruses? The common cold. I mean, there's never been a vaccine in the history of the world that's been developed that quickly, Dr. Natterman. Oh, shut up, Periel. It's true. Well, look, I would love it if there was one.

But again, you do have to test. That wasn't the question. The question was, will there be a vaccine be developed? Not will it be developed this year? And by the way, there's never been this many resources and energy put into a vaccine either. This is unprecedented. So I, I kind of lean towards though, there's going to be medicines to alleviate symptoms. And then this will,

we don't know what immunity means. We don't know how much it mutates. There's so many things we don't know. Just when I talked to epidemiologists, they don't seem to know. Okay. But despite Perriel, Dr.

Ashton Brand, you know, why are you telling me to shut up? Because. This is a comedy seller podcast now. No, I meant it. So rude. Take that back.

I take it back. Go ahead. Yep. Because it's beneath you, forgive me, to say something so with such surety, forgive me, to say something with such assuredness of something you have absolutely no expertise in, despite the fact that we see newspaper articles in the New York Times and see experts saying, actually, they're in phase three trials.

The results have been very promising. They expect, I even saw one article that said that they think the vaccine immunity will be superior to the regular immunity that you'd get from getting the virus, which surprised me. And so I understand taking everything with a grain of salt, but do you have some biological expertise here that you know that what you're reading is just a bunch of bulk? I'm just not buying it. I think it's a lot of media hype. And Emily's here.

Well, you're doing the same thing. There's a reason to respond. I'm just not buying it. Well, but that's what people say when they say global warming doesn't exist. Well, it's hype, and I'm not buying it. And you would make fun of them for that. You would say they're anti-science. We should have my virologist friend back on, Dr. Pillai.

Anyway, this Emily Esposito is the daughter of one of our comedy seller comedians, John Joseph Esposito. Bring her on. But James, here's the thing. One thing is for sure. In the places that have been hit hard, New York City, London, Sweden, they're not getting spikes like the places that were never hit. That's for sure. And I don't believe they're wearing more masks than anyplace else.

I agree. And look, Sweden, they're fine. Stockholm's economy has been hit, but they're coming back. London, I don't know enough about. London, they opened the pubs already. It's even unclear.

We don't really know how this is transmitted, to be honest. We don't really know anything yet. Emily is interesting, Noam, because she is a well-adjusted daughter of a comedian, I think. You haven't seen her when she's been drinking. I haven't seen her.

Emily, how are you? Emily? Emily? Hello. Emily, can we have your video? We can only see your face not moving. There we go. Oh, that was very good.

Right on cue. I was just introducing you. You're the daughter of a beloved John Joseph Esposito. We call him John Joseph. He's a comedian that works at the Cellar. And he's probably, as comedians go, I don't know. There's probably as good parents that are comedians, maybe. Very few.

You know, he is a devoted man that's been married to the same woman for his whole life. And they have two daughters that he absolutely adores. Emily, before we get in, I know you're here for a specific reason. But before we get into that, how great is your father, John Joseph Esposito? My father, John Joseph Esposito, is a pretty great man. Oh, I have FaceTimed him. Hey, kids, come here. I want you to listen to this. Yeah, he I FaceTimed him since 7 o'clock to now about four times

because he thought this was live. So even though he's been on it, he's done this, he was asking me where the YouTube link was so he could watch it. Well, you know, men of a certain age are not necessarily plugged in technologically. Not wrong. And you're an actress you've decided to follow your father into show business um worst decision of my life yeah well it was still time to back out of it

by the way yeah no i uh that's that's what i'm doing because this is the worst idea well emily you'll be happy to know that you got into it just as James has bequeathed that it's dead. There is no more show business. But I don't want it to be dead. I have to keep adding. Yes, I read the article, as did many of my friends. I can't believe.

Did you know it was going to go viral when you wrote it? No, I put this like for my friends and other things. Like I didn't, like, my kids are getting hate mail from their friends' parents. Can I tell you who sent it to me on the first day it was out?

Tyler Cowen. You know Tyler Cowen? Yeah, yeah. He's a good friend of mine. Oh, yeah. Is that how he knew about it? He knew about it because he's a friend of yours? Yeah, he was on my podcast at the beginning of the lockdown where he did say the ridiculous comment that we could probably stay locked down till 2022. And I was like, that is insane. You're an economist. But he is one of the smartest people I know. I should I should be full disclosure here. So. So he sent it to me and I said, you know, I really like James.

He's a he's James he's a friend and he's a good guy but sometimes I think there's some smoke and mirrors going on here like I just didn't like I just can't accept that New York is dying well just look at the content of the article though like where am I wrong I want to be wrong

well we've had this discussion how did Bitcoin turn out for you well Bitcoin I recommended when it was around $3,500, and now it's around $12,000. So it didn't do as well as you said. Nobody's complaining. Nobody's complaining, though. Go ahead, go ahead.

So, Emily, you came on for a very specific reason. I did. To promote something that is very dear to your heart. Yes. Tell us about that. And I hate James Club. Everybody, my whole family. I don't hate James.

James is entitled to his analysis. I'm kidding. I don't even know him. Sure, he's fabulous. The reason I'm here is because I started Rock the Vote campaign because we need people to get registered and get voting and make a change so we can all stop complaining about this country. I haven't been complaining.

Well, then you don't need to vote, Noam. This excludes you. By the way, Emily, I have a question for you. When I was researching this article, or actually about a week before, I didn't realize this, but everyone always complains about de Blasio. And now I understand why. Only 8% of voters turned out for the last mayoral election. So I do think on local, 8%. So I do believe on local, 8%. So I do believe on local, we realize now that's incredibly important. Yes.

Well, we all agree that high voter turnout, it's a good thing when people are engaged. I guess you could argue that it's, we only want people to vote that agree with us. Yes, but the biggest thing- No, I don't agree with that. I think everybody should be engaged and should vote and should put in the time and the effort to research the candidates and to vote for the best candidate. An engaged society can't help but be a better society.

So even if you're not on the same side of the political fence. So is this a website people can go to? Yes. Well, first, the biggest thing I've been hearing from people is it doesn't matter. It's not going to make a difference if I vote or not, which is the biggest problem. People think they don't matter. And that's why only 8% of people go out and vote. So that's what I would love to change. I would love people to think they do matter. So I have an Instagram and a Facebook page called at rock the vote raffle. So if you go

to this page, you follow it, and you send in a snapshot of your confirmation of registration. Once you send that to me, you get entered into a raffle. And this raffle, you can win fun prizes from people in the entertainment business. Ask James for some free cover charges to stand up New York. I will offer that. James will definitely be involved.

He'll write a whole article about you. It's going to be great. I'll have to recant my article from several years ago that said never vote again but i'm really happy i'm on with him this is perfect um so prizes are like a comedian or an actress or a singer will send you a personalized video message like cameo or you'll get signed merchandise or like in the year 2022 you can get a hug from somebody like it's gonna it's gonna be great lots of different prizes let me just be devil's advocate here for a second i don't like what you said here i i see a

contradiction what you're saying here who me yeah you're saying on the one hand you're saying you want everybody to vote because voting is a virtuous thing to do. Yeah. And then you're saying you need to do it so we can make a change, which only implied that you want them to vote for Biden. I, no, okay. I want that change. However, it is your right, it is everybody's right to have their opinion heard, just like I don't agree with James, but he has the right to say whatever the hell he wants so if you say that and i want to say something different that's okay so is it rock

the vote it wasn't the mtv thing rock the vote yeah it's a campaign off of that you can start your own campaign off of rock the boat and then do whatever you want with it so i got my own little starter kit from rock the boatat. Rock is dead. They should call it Rap the Boat. Why did you decide to do this, Emily? No, you start Rap the Boat. I'll stick to Rock the Boat. Who listens to rock anymore? It's Rock the Boat Raffle.

Emily, why did you start this? Because I'm an actress and I can't do anything. And it kills me not to be able to create or do something with the right side of my

brain and one day I just said I gotta do something and this is what I wanted to do. I wanted to Nobody can argue with the virtue of voting even though Noam believes you have a specific political agenda. I believe.

You can take that to the bank, Dan. I'm not pushing that agenda on anybody, Noam. All I'm pushing is register. That's it. All I want people to do is register. So rockthevote.com. How do you go to your specific Rock the Vote page? You go to Instagram or Facebook and do the little app thing and do Rock the Vote raffle.

Rock the Vote raffle. Okay. Well, I asked James a question. What did Tyler, because did you speak to Tyler Cowen about this article? No, I haven't spoken to him since March. Oh, I'm very curious to know what he thinks about it. Mark Cuban tweeted back. Emily, you can stay for this discussion.

Mark Cuban tweeted back at, I was very impressed by the way that Mark Cuban like responded to you directly. Well, Mark Cuban, I've known for 23 years. Well, Mark Cuban responded to you basically saying what you're saying is full of shit. No, he did not say that. He just said, nope, I'm going to be here as an investor when, basically saying what you're saying is full of shit. No, he did not say that. He just said, nope, I'm going to be here as an investor when prices get low enough. And I said, you know, he said New York City rebounds. And I said, I hope you're right.

And he, you know, we texted, he liked my tweet. We just, he's willing to buy when all the buildings go bankrupt, he'll be a buyer. Okay, but he doesn't agree with your assessment that New York is doomed. he's willing to buy when all the, when all the buildings go bankrupt, he'll be a buyer. Okay. But he doesn't, he doesn't agree with your assessment that New York is doomed. Yeah. He doesn't agree with that,

but he's, he's thinking also very longterm that eventually there's going to be bankruptcies and cheap prices. Well, now he's a billionaire. So I'm just looking at you too. I'm saying, well,

you're a, you're a millionaire, James, and you've done well, but he's a billionaire. So I got to believe him. Yeah. Believe him. millionaire, James, and you've done well, but he's a billionaire. So I got to believe him. Yeah, believe him. Anybody can believe whatever they want. All I said were facts, which is, this is the situation of the companies that have announced that they're remote.

Here are the restaurants that are bankrupt. Here is the commercial real estate situation. Here's the record number of vacancies. All of this has already been in the news. I just am putting the facts in one place. What do your children think of your analysis? The young people like Emily, your children are not quite Emily's age. My daughter just signed a lease,

which I paid for in the East Village. Go ahead, Dan. I'm saying, are they reacting harshly to your article? No, because again, to your point and everybody's point,

young people are going to move here. There's going to be some cultural activity. It's not like this is going to be a wasteland, but it's just the New York City that we all know is gone. The finances are upside down. Many companies are going bankrupt more than we would like. To Emily's point about not doing any acting, acting is not going to start up for another eight months at least and maybe more.

And then we just got the message today about comedy and dancing in places. And so they know what's the reality also. It's just, they're trying to figure out what to do whilst, you know, I have five kids living in the city, so they're all trying to figure out what to do next. By the way, his family is what we call them. Was it called reconstituted or is that? Yeah. Two are mine.

Three are my wife's. But you, you, you have embraced the three of your wife's kids as your own kids. Yeah. They don't have a, they don't have a dad. They don't have a dad.

Okay. Yeah. James, will you talk, will you ask Tyler what he thinks about your article? He's always right. He is. Well, I did not agree with him when he said that the United States can have an economic lockdown until at least 2022. I think that's financially correct, but not psychologically correct. We see from all the unrest that's happening right now.

He's keen to that. He understands the unrest. I don't know if he did it in March because we discussed that. He thought that the Fed, and by the way, I've spoken to governors of the Federal Reserve. They are willing to pay for a lockdown through 2022. There's infinite money in the U.S. And people say, oh, you can't print money forever. That is incorrect.

But I don't think psychologically, nobody wants things to be locked down any more than they are right now. I'd like to have you on again to explain to us what it means to print money forever. But Tyler is almost always correct. He is super smart. I mean, he is one of the highest IQ people I've ever met. Emily, are you living in Manhattan? I want to bring Emily into it a little bit. That's fine. I like listening. Okay. I'm in Astoria, and I'm moving apartments this week.

Where are you moving? I'm staying in Astoria, just a different place. Astoria was my first place in the city when I lived on my own. I like it here. By the way, I will say this about zoom. I don't ever want to do a podcast in person again. I will say that. Yeah.

I've done a hundred of these now remote. It's great. I like it because I, I find it easier to face off against somebody when I'm not in their physical presence. I don't feel intimidated or worried in the same way. But no, don't you miss like at the end when we shut off the sound,

we all had the makeout session at the end. Like, don't you miss those? Like it was very intimate. James, when we used to finish those things, you couldn't leave fast enough for me. No, I'm kidding. I know that's true. I know that's true. No, no, no. I would like to hang out. No, I don kidding. I know that's true. I know that's true. No, no, no.

I would like to hang out. No, I don't say I don't ever want to go and hang out with people again. And I love to hang out with you, honestly. And you're not even a good example. But sometimes we have a guest and I'd be intimidated in person. Like, what if I'm too strong and then I have to see them after, whatever it is. Now it's like, okay, goodbye, click and you're done. And also just, it's kind of like wearing sunglasses gives you a certain kind of, or mask gives you a certain feeling of disconnected, which allows you to speak more freely. I know Howard Stern would always wear those dark glasses

when he was doing those interviews, and I think that was partly the same thing. I just kind of like not being the same. One thing about Zoom is, James, you talk a lot about how Zoom has taught us that we don't need to be in each other's presence. It's also taught us that we do need to be in each other's presence because I'm going crazy over here. I mean, I've been Zooming and it's just not a reasonable substitute. I've been at Zoom birthday parties. I've been at Zoom Passover Seders.

I've done many Zoom podcasts. I agree with you, Dan. There's no substitute. The psychological need for person-to-person contact has actually been, in my mind, reinforced. Reinforced, you understand, by the Zoom experience. I don't know if that means you would want to be around the cubicles of fellow lawyers or if you want to be around your friends. I get that you would want to be around the cubicles of fellow lawyers or if you want to be around your friends. And I get that.

Like, you want to be around friends. I wouldn't know anything about bringing in the cubicle of fellow lawyers. And I don't know the logistics of law firms. Because you failed the bar exam, but okay. I didn't fail it like Kamala did the first time. And Hillary did too. By the way, I mean, I know everybody's saying Kamala's a genius. Kamala.

Brilliant. She's a Kamala. I'm sorry. She's not a genius. She's sorry. She's not a genius. She's brilliant. I don't know if there's any evidence for it. I think she's competent. I don't know if she's brilliant.

I think they're giving her more credit than... Listen, I saw a headline today. This is the amount of whatever the way everybody's getting behind Kamala Harris, the amount of hagiography, is that the word? Well, shit, hold on. I just saw this. Great use of hagiography.

That's the first time I have ever heard that in a sentence. I don't even know if I pronounced it right. But anyway, there was a article today in the Washington Post. this is literally the headline of the article Kamala can you see it no you can't see it Kamala Harris's dad was from Jamaica where a fierce woman warrior once fought slavery and just in case you're

wondering there is absolutely no relationship in the story between Kamala Harris's dad and the fierce woman who fought slavery. They literally just had to. It's as if like so-and-so's dad was from Germany where Hitler exterminated the Jews. Like it's this is not serious what they're doing. So, yeah, of course, they're saying she's brilliant. I think that, you know, I think it's perfectly valid to say the article talk that we're talking about her failing the bar, talking about how she'd always aced the test and she was a very, very serious student. It's perfectly valid to question how somebody brilliant who was always on top of their studying failed the bar exam. I mean, I'm not saying she's stupid, but that's not the mark of brilliance, is it?

But more importantly, we talk about this, the Times, Vox.com, Reason, Atlantic, I think I'm maybe forgetting one other source, all have written articles saying that this woman fought to keep innocent people in prison who had already been exonerated and she still fought to keep them in prison, which to me is what you call a human rights violation. And the reason that this is just, everybody's just averting their eyes from this and pretending it didn't happen, I cannot understand. And I was all in for Susan Rice, even though I don't agree with her politically. But Kamala Harris, to me, if you fight to keep somebody in prison when they're innocent, there's a special place in hell for you.

There's not much things you can do worse as someone in government than to fight to keep someone innocent in prison. I don't like prosecutors in general because they're all like that. No, it's not the job of a prosecutor. The job of a prosecutor is to put guilty people in prison. I know. Well, that's what theoretically, yeah, but they don't seem to think that. I mean- All right, so then let's forgive the cops who bust innocent people too because. I know. Well, that's what, yeah, but they don't seem to think that. So then let's forgive

the cops who bust innocent people too because, I mean, that's a ridiculous excuse. Not an excuse. I'm just saying that I don't like prosecutors as a general matter.

My experiences on grand jury duty left a very bad taste in my mouth for prosecutors in general. They tend to be like that. Well, fine. That's, yeah, maybe none of them should be present.

You think what she's done is worse than what's happening now? I think. What's happening now? In terms of putting innocent people in jail and brutality and innocent people dying. I don't know about it. I don't know where, where innocent people,

I'm just innocent. I don't know where innocent people are going to jail. I mean, I'm naive about this. I believe that, that people for low level crimes are going to jail that shouldn't be going to jail. Emily, Emily.

Yes, it is worse. Uh, yeah. I mean, if someone goes to jail for a low level of crime, low level crime, you can advocate that the law be changed. But at least that's not corruption. That is, the lawmakers created the law. So you don't think there's any corruption going on now? agree with you almost what you're saying but what i'm saying is that for you for a human being to know that someone is innocent has been exonerated and then attempts to keep them in jail is so

deeply evil i mean let's let's let's put in perspective cavanaugh was accused of groping a woman when he was a 16 yearyear-old minor drunk in high school. That's all. Never even got her clothes. You know, I'm not minimizing the accusation, even though it's not proven. And he rolled over on the bed and that was the end of it. And women were literally ready to throw themselves in front of tanks because he is disqualified. He did this 30 years ago.

He groped this woman. And now we're saying, on the other hand, a full-grown woman who is the Attorney General of California can fight to keep an innocent person in prison. And that's not, you know, all right, whatever, come on. Things like, things happen. I mean, the hypocrisy is, how can you swallow that? It was two years ago, we were hearing that Bill Clinton was being re-evaluated. Gillibrand said he should have been impeached, he should have resigned. There were columns after columns saying, how do we get Bill Clinton wrong?

How do we get Bill Clinton wrong? And then all of a sudden, I mean, Me Too was so 2018, I guess, because all of a sudden he's speaking at the convention again. But they went crazy about Louis C.K. They went fucking crazy with me about Louis C.K. But Bill Clinton, you know, we'd all kind of come around to the idea that he probably did rape Juanita Broderick.

That was kind of, that was what we said when we were trying to get Roy Moore out of the picture. We even had Al Franken resign for it. And now, you know, so now you got, in the year of Me Too and Black Lives Matter, you have one guy speaking there who's credibly accused of rape and another woman there who's credibly accused of keeping innocent people in prison, more than one.

And I say, what do they take us for? Like, you want me to vote? I'm not voting. I'm not voting for either of these parties. They're horrible. Oh, you're going to vote all right now. And by the way, what I'm saying is unassailable. You can't argue with what I'm saying. You've got to pick one. So I'm going to make sure that you do. I don't want you weaseling

out of this. I want you to pick one and then we're going to discuss it on the show. Even kids in cages, and I was revolted by the kids in cages. Even that has an explanation, which you can follow step by step and see how we wound up in that situation where people are coming over the border with their kids. You can't just have a rule that says if you get in, you can stay. So they were incarcerating them. Then somebody sued and the ACLU. So the judge rules that, no, you have to incarcerate them separately. So now they're incarcerated separately. And you can see how we wound up in that situation, which is why even Obama did it, but to be clear, much less than Trump did it.

But even that to me is another universe from keeping innocent people in prison after they're exonerated. I mean, that's just, that's what Phil Don Castro does. That's not what an American elected official does. That's what a despot does. We have two choices,

and you're going to pick one. Yeah, well, I guess the choice in that place is to pick Biden because he's more likely to bail New York out. Like, let's abandon all principle and just do what's best for ourselves, right? Well, however you want to make the decision,

but I don't want, because you didn't vote in 2016. I just, I guess what I'm just saying is I don't understand how, like, the Democrats had such an opportunity here to really take the high road. They could have gotten rid of Bill Clinton. They could have nominated some woman with a nice, clean record, you know, virginal record. Instead, they went back to the well for this old sexual harasser and this harsh prosecutor accused of, you know, horrendous things. What's with them? Why are they doing that? Why do they have to make it so easy? Why can't they take the high road and do what's right? Well, we can discuss that on a future episode. We have plenty of time before

the election to get to the bottom of all those issues. Who do you think they should have nominated? I'm just curious. Vice president? No, for president. Oh, I think Biden, you know, presuming that his head is on straight. And I'm not one of the people who says he's senile, but I understand it's a possibility. I think Biden was a perfectly reasonable nominee.

And I think as vice president, he should not have limited himself to some sort of quota system. But if they were going to- The personal person you were speaking about. What's that? Yeah, you said something about a virginal candidate. Who is that? Yeah, who is the virginal candidate? No, when I say virginal, I'm saying they, no, Biden is not accused of anything horrible as far as I know. I'm talking about the vice president.

I'm talking about who they have speaking at the, let me put it another way. More than ever, the Democratic Party, their agenda, they have no real agenda, really. So what their real agenda is, we stand for social justice. We stand against all that crap. And that, Me Too, Black Lives Matter, this is what they stand for now, right? I mean, nobody cares about fiddling with the tax code yet again. And so why would they then go back to Bill Clinton and then choose a prosecutor who was accused not by Fox News,

but by Vox.com of keeping innocent people in prison, of fighting to prevent someone on death row who was likely innocent from getting a $12 DNA test. She wanted to see him executed. She didn't want to get, no, no, no, don't let him, don't let him, don't give him that DNA test. God forbid he should prove that actually he's not the guy. How can they nominate somebody like that? It all says to me, they don't stand for what they claim to stand for. They're just, they're just playing politics somehow. It's very disappointing. I mean, I would have nominated Susan Harris, Susan Rice, because she, you know, Biden might be out of the picture on January 19th. They need somebody who's really ready to take on the world immediately.

And she has the experience. And if you have to have a black woman, then she's the only one I think that really had the real life experience. And by the way, she's also fucking brilliant. First in her class, Rhodes Scholar, fancy dissertations. I mean, if you look at Susan Rice's resume, it is unbelievable. She is stone cold brilliant. And yes, she made some mistakes in her past, but she probably learned from them. Who hasn't made mistakes? Lincoln made terrible mistakes

in the Civil War. So, you know, that's what I would say. But I'm just very disappointed in the Democrats. And I feel like they gaslighting me. Like, you know, all that stuff we said about Harris, you know, the New York Times. Oh, forget about those articles we wrote. You know, now she's picked vice president.

Great. Well, I can't disagree with what you said, but we have a choice. We could. We have a choice to make in November. And a binary choice. You got to choose the lesser of two evils. Absolutely. Why is it binary?

I'm in the birthday party, Kanye West all the way. Well, maybe. How could you not join the birthday party? By the birthday party. So we've been doing an hour and 20 minutes. Do you wish to continue or should we save some subject matter for future episodes? No, I'm going to be harping

on this over and over probably until election day. You don't need to keep harping tonight. It truly bothers me. I mean, it truly bothers me. I could not tell. What's bothering me

is not just that it's true, but that not a single person and, you know, I speak to real-life journalists real life journalists, and they're all pretty left wing, and none of them have an answer to this. They do like an ostrich and put their head in the sound, or they say something about Trump, and they're right about Trump, but my God, it's inexcusable. I haven't heard a single rational response to it. Even

the great James Altucher has been silent on this. Well, I bet on Susan Rice, but I don't really know. Yeah, Rice would have been great. Emily,

give your father warm regards from all of us obviously where is he is he in long island he is he is at home with my mom watching bunnies and birds in the backyard and the marriage is holding steady despite him being home 24 7 they are alive, so it's a win. Okay. By the way, James, I would have preferred one of those Midwestern governors or Pete Buttigieg. Obviously, I prefer the most moderate Democrat,

but Biden is not the end of the world to me. Some kind of return to normalcy would be nice. Yeah, I'm looking forward to an Andrew Yang one day. Yeah, I'd be fine with Andrew Yang too. I think quite often, I don't even care what they're really saying.

I just size them. I'd be happy with Bloomberg too, by the way. I want somebody who's smart. And I mean, look, the stuff that Senator Obama said had very little relationship to what President Obama did or didn't do. I mean, President, Senator Obama never thought he was going to be dropping drones on tents

and, you know, women and children. The point is that you need someone who's smart enough and flexible enough to, when he finally sits in that chair, weighs things intelligently and gets the best opinions around him. Just like what we have right now. Right. The opposite of what we have right now. Right, the opposite of what we have right now. And so Andrew Yang, you know, may seem kind of flaky about certain things,

but on the other hand, he seemed like a pretty fucking smart guy who would probably be pretty data-based and make some pretty smart decisions, you know? And that's what we need. Well, Noam, I think we need to save some for next time. Dan? Biden, of course, recommended against getting bin Laden.

It's just worth saying. And Bob Gates, President Obama's defense secretary, said that Biden was wrong about every single decision that came across his desk or something like that. So there is reason to worry. There's a lot of reason to worry. I would like to know why the zebra behind you, Dan, has not moved for the past hour and 25 minutes. Is that a fake background, Dan? He is very patiently stalking his prey. I don't know if a zebra is a predatory animal, but let's just say that he's stalking his prey.

And so he's lying in wait for his prey. Also, the clouds haven't moved either. But in any case, Noam, are we ready to sign off? I mean, I got nothing to do. If we're in the olive tree, I'd be wanting to jump. It says I'm in Zoom. It's like a meander. You to sign off? I mean, I got nothing to do. If we're in the olive tree, I'd be wanting to jump. It says I'm in Zoom. It's like a meander. You can sign off.

And if you want to come back on and talk, that's fine. But I think for a nice, you know, for a nice tight show. I was so dark after I read that article. I literally read it like 15 minutes before it came on about how they're not going to allow comedy to open. This was actually a pleasant experience for me because it made me forget about it for a little bit. I was just sick over this. It's crazy when they don't understand that uncertainty is often worse than bad rules. So when they just bring these rules on us, it's scary.

Well, are we at the 15 days to slow the spread are we there yet have we done the 15 days they say regardless of phase what are they saying exactly can you sign off and then we can continue talking why

alright okay I just I like a nice tight cohesive package. Well, you can leave. If you want to hang up, if you want to stop listening out there in TV land, you can. It says, currently, there is no... No, I'm reading the wrong thing.

It said that... Here it is. You can share it. I enabled screen sharing. Okay, I will share it. And Emily, don't feel like we're holding you hostage. Emily, are you socializing? Emily's so starved for

companionship, she wants to stay. Well, this I'm actually interested in. Have you been socializing? Oh, as opposed to the other stuff. As opposed to the diatribe I just witnessed. Well, that's wrong, Emily. You should be interested wrong emily you should be interested you should be interested you want to live in the bubble no i i am interested in in the things you have to say

um i'm a very reasonable person you sound reasonable i truly am reasonable i'll listen to reason performers should be at least 12 i don't i don't hear your father to be honest with you voicing strong political opinion, so I'm a little in the dark as to where he is. John, are you kidding? He's out there blasting Trump on Facebook all the time. Oh, shut up. He is.

He does. He does it pretty well. Like pro-Trump? No, blasting. Blasting, hitting him. I understand. Okay. I misheard your words. Blasting, hitting them. I understand. Like, okay. I misheard your words.

Blasting like a TNT. That's because it's just so easy. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, here. Can you read it, Perrielle? Did you finish? If offering music indoors... Yes, if offering music indoors or out,

all relevant aspects of the... must be followed... performers, all other forms of live entertainment, such as exotic dancing, comedy shows, et cetera, are not permissible currently, regardless of phase. So this means that comedy was allowed, and now it's not.

Well, it was allowed given the phase. If the phase allowed it, it would have been allowed. So music is allowed but not comedy? Is that correct? No. No music, no comedy. Pardon? No music, no comedy.

And this is indefinitely? Did they give a time frame? Well, nobody knows until they... No, so this was actually in phase four, which correct me if I'm wrong which was coming up we were going to be allowed comedy indoors no we didn't know but the presumption my presumption was that whenever they did allow indoor dining at that point we would be able to have attendant comedy even and i was prepared to not have show times or cover charges i suspected they might

come back with a rule about that because they don't want lines and they don't want but but just i was happy just to open the olive tree and the pussycat for dinner and stuff and have people come in and form and have comedians go on informally hey no i have a question for you what if what if um it wasn't quite a walk-in experience, but a club experience? So in other words, people who come into the Olive Tree for indoor dining, and if they become an annual member of the Comedy Cellar Club, they can then go see comedies. Are the rules different for private clubs? I don't know the answer, but generally when it comes to matters of health, technicalities are not, don't work, you know?

Yeah. So I would doubt it. No one wants to do that. I mean, you know, I would guess no one doesn't want to get involved with having a comedy cellar club with a membership, you know? Look, I was quite respectful of all the rules and and i never even privately perry all knows i was never saying they need to fucking open the restaurants i was prepared to wait until it's safe but what it does bother me that if they decide

that indoor dining is safe that they won't then allow a comedian behind a plexiglass shield to speak i mean that's just i mean you know also, by the way, this is not legal. Like, if anybody sues, they're going to win. It's not... You can't be prevented from conducting business without due process. I don't know. I mean, what state?

Wisconsin or Minnesota? One of these states, at least two states have won in their Supreme Court over this. That's a good question. I don't know. We should get into legal action. I imagine that in matters of public health, they have rights. The government has rights to do certain things.

What exactly are we waiting for? We were waiting. We were trying to slow the spread, flatten the curve. Now it seems like we're just waiting for a vaccine. Yeah. Well, maybe those kind of those cases you're talking about more like equal protection like if they're gonna if they're gonna if they're gonna have a rule about these people it can't be totally unfair to those people

there has to be some rational reason that they regulate these people and not those people so if you can have 50 people here you can't really say you can't have 50 people at a church so i'm like that that i would get but I think they can close things down. You're right, Dan. I mean, way, way back when, when Yasha Mount was telling us to close and I was speaking to him and I thought he was right, I said to him, but all these issues are going to be the same once we try to open again, because it's a very interesting thing in life and in business

that nothing, you think you're doing something temporary, a temporary fix, a temporary measure, but more often than not, you can't break out of it. It actually becomes permanent. So once you close down, we're just going to close down temporarily until we've flattened the curve. But once you're from that position, it's very, very difficult to open up because at that point you're making a decision now to allow the curve to rise again in some way, meaning allowing people to die and they can't do it. And look, the opening of colleges in the past week or two, you know, there's been spikes in cases in every state where they've opened colleges. So they're getting their cues from that. But no, also,

this is my point that you say, oh, when COVID's gone, things will come back to normal. It's not going to be back to normal, even when COVID's gone, like there's going to be lingering effects of this, you know, grasping of power from the government. And it's a slippery slope a little bit that we've entered that we don't really know when we're going to get off this slope. By the way, James, you'll like this. I did the math. 20% of people 80 years old die if they have COVID.

So if you have 100 people 80 years old, you'll produce 20 deaths statistically. Do you know how many 25-year-olds you have to have to get COVID to get 20 deaths? 40,000. 20,000. Okay. 180-year-olds is worth 20,000 young adults.

Which is, by the way, almost the reverse of the flu. Like, kids die from the flu. Yeah. So, I think we've learned a lot about the virus but it seems like they could have opened colleges i think they could they could have they could have everybody come you know quarantine for two it seems to me that if they keep people tell me if i'm wrong these college kids they're wrong no if they're in college then they're under a kind of quasi-authoritarian rule there when you can go out, when you can leave.

You know, colleges have a lot of control over their students. So they're going to try to get these people not to get sick. But if they don't go to college, they're not staying home in plastic bubbles. They're going to go out and party and go to bars or go to houses or whatever it is. So the net lives saved, I don't think there's going to be any net lives saved. As a matter of fact, I bet you more young adults are going to die

in remote college situations because there's going to go out searching for something to do than they will in a controlled college environment where they could quarantine everybody for two weeks and then say nobody leaves campus

except following these particular protocols. Do we have any idea among the 20,000 25-year-olds that you mentioned? Yeah. You said for every 20,000 25-year-olds that gets corona, one dies or 20 dies, I guess. 20 dies. 20. Do we have any idea?

0.02%. Can we ascertain who those 20 are likely to be so that we can get an even finer kind of... Oh, yeah, probably a lot of them have pre-existing conditions, yeah. Are those 20 all diabetic? Because they're probably... If you take 20,000 25-year-olds, probably 20 of them are diabetic or have congenital heart issues or what have you. But those also have to be the 20 people that catch it.

So, right. By the way, these colleges also, like, let's take, you know, Columbia as an example, last week they said, oh, we were going to have on-campus learning. Now we're going to be all remote, but sorry, we're not going to reduce tuition at all. Zero. And so I wonder how long colleges are going to be able to get away with this little scam. Can I tell you something? My niece lives in Tel Aviv. She's supposed to start her freshman year of Harvard in the fall. And it's completely closed down.

I mean, they're not letting any international kids come in full stop. Like, it's all online. It's crazy. Yeah, and they're not reducing tuition is my guess. My kid was going to start at Columbia in the fall. It's crazy. Anyway, we've really verged onto an entirely new topic. So let's bid our farewell

James thank you so much in the height of your virality is that a word? virality? I appreciate it viral video is what you mean so we're getting James hot off his viral

fame just general viralness and Emily Esposito off his viral fame. My just general viralness. And Emily Esposito, once again, rock the vote raffle on Instagram and Facebook. Yes. Unless you're gnome, then

don't go there. You'll hate it. And remember this, everybody, if you ever hear a headline that the comedy seller is dead forever, you If you ever hear a headline that the Comedy Cellar is dead forever, you can probably still see a show that night. I'm going to it.

Podcast at ComedyCellar.com is how you contact us with questions, comments, and suggestions. And you can follow us live from the table on Instagram. Read James.

If you haven't read James' article New York is dead forever Here's why James contact Tyler I'm really curious To know what he says Alright I'll call him Tonight

And be safe Alright You guys too Thanks a lot Thanks everybody I like you a lot I'm happy that you Bought Sand in New York

Me too Thanks you guys See you soon Bye You can also Watch us on YouTube This isn't just audio. Listen, Dan is gone. Do we have a few words to say about Dan? Bye, everybody.

Bye, guys.