The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Tim Dillon, Emma Willmann, Seaton Smith, and Joe Machi

Episode Date: August 5, 2018

Tim Dillon is a New York City-based standup comedian. He hosts his own podcast called, "Tim Dillon is Going to Hell." He recently secured a pilot with Comedy Central Emma Willmann, Seaton Smith, and Joe Machi are all New York City-based comedians. They may be seen performing regularly at the Comedy Cellar.

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar show here on Sirius XM, Channel 99. We're here at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. My name is Norm Dorman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. I'm here with my good friend, one of my best friends, Mr. Dan Natterman, who just got... Did you come back from Aruba? Yeah, I just literally got back from the airport. Ubered in. You talk about loyalty to the show.

Are you a little under the weather? Well, no, I'm a little fatigued. You know, these flights, for some reason, I don't know why flying, even when you're just sitting there, takes a lot out of you. It occurs to me... I know this is probably not a good time to talk about it. Go ahead.

It probably is a good time. When we get our checks from Sirius, which they're not very much, but they are real, I never docked you for the shows that you miss. Yeah, but you've missed shows too. That's as different as my show. Yeah, but I had to take double duty by doing double duty as a host. No, that's not the way it works. That's not the way it works. That's not the way it works.

All right. Well, since we don't have a formal contract, but that seems reasonable to me. You guys don't have a contract? And I very seldom miss a show. But you have missed. At least to the tune of that airplane ticket I had to pay for you. Right, what about it? All right, whatever.

Okay, anyway. Tim Dillon is a New York City-based stand-up comedian. He hosts his own podcast called Tim Dillon is Going to Hell. He recently secured a pilot with Comedy Central. Yeah. Congratulations. Emma Vildman. Yeah.

Vildman. I like that. I'm doing a pilot with E! Entertainment News. Just was at a meeting for it right now. Travel show. Everybody announced their pilot. Seaton Smith. Actually, it's a sizzle. That's dope. Crying. Yeah, how you doing? I pilot Seaton Smith Actually it's a sizzle

That's dope Yeah how you doing I'm Seaton Smith I'm gonna be My show's already picked up So whatever What's your show I'm gonna be

Arturo I got a show on Comedy I should talk in the microphone My bad My bad It's gonna be called Alternatino

It's gonna be on Comedy Central Coming out either this fall Or this spring And I'm gonna be like A side character in jazz That's awesome What's it called Alternatino is going to be on Comedy Central coming out either this fall or this spring. And I'm going to be like a side character in jazz. That's awesome. What's it called?

Alternatino with Arturo Castro. He was a dude who was on Broad City. And then he got his own show. It's a sitcom? It's going to be a hybrid sketch sitcom kind of show. Oh, cool. Yeah. That's awesome.

I didn't hear about that. Yeah, no, it's cool. And we have our own Comedy Central show coming out in October. Really? Yeah. I was almost in the pilot. I remember. Well, you can be on the show. I'd love to. Yeah, no, it's cool. And we have our own Comedy Central show coming out in October. Really? Yeah. I was almost in the pilot. I remember.

Well, you can be on the show. I'd love to. Yeah, yeah. So let's see how that goes. Congrats. You mean Ray Allen's show. Ray Allen's show. Oh, yeah. The Ruber Ray.

All right, so listen. It's raining money in this table. I like it. First of all, this is how everything's plugged. But Tim is apparently a gay right-wing... Somewhat right-wing. Depends. Issue by issue.

He told me you were extremely right-wing. I don't know about extremely. To be extremely right-wing now, you have to be like locking people in cages. You're a Trump supporter. No. No. All right. This is...

No. So what's so right-wing about it? I wasn't a Hillary supporter either. But I wasn't a Hillary supporter either, but I wasn't a Trump supporter. I've never been a supporter of any major presidential candidate. It's never really been. More of a Ted Cruz guy? No, I'm a who cares guy.

I didn't know it was going to go this off the rails with Trump. I thought it would be interesting to see what a real outsider would do. Now that I've seen what it is, I'm a little less enthused. But no, I've never been crazy. I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference. I think there's a lot of stuff going on that's going to be pretty much the same no matter what. Trump is changing that, though.

He's the one guy that's kind of doing something. Usually it's like you give somebody a ceremonial job and you're like, well, this job doesn't really matter. Then they start shitting on everyone's desk. You're like, well, I guess it matters slightly. It's like, well, I guess this is more disruptive than we had imagined. There's been a lot less conspiracy theory talks.

Hasn't there? You notice that? They used to be a conspiracy dude all the time. They got a plan, dot, dot, dot. Now it's like, I don't know. I don't know if they got a plan. You see the presidency as a mostly ceremonial job? Well, yeah, I think the dominance of the financial sector, the military, industrial, those things don't go away. The lobbyists, the Senate, the Congress, all of those things are kind of fixed. All these power factions are fixed. And the president, of course, does things.

But a lot of our foreign and economic policy doesn't change that much. You know? From president to president. There's a lot of things that we, you know, there's a lot of consistency. And again, Trump is changing a lot of that. Well, that doesn't mean that it's a ceremonial job. That just means that. It's not all ceremonial.

But I mean, you don't really. A lot of ceremony. I'm going to be on Tim's side here. There's a lot of ceremony in the job. Were you a political science major, too? Is that right? I dropped out. I changed into business, and I just dropped out of school. You can read every comment. This is the thing, and this may be

homophobic in some way. Let's hear it. Everybody talks about you. I like that you have to preface that. I don't know if it is, but it might be homophobic. Somehow it's related to the soft big it under that umbrella. It's somehow related to the soft bigotry of looks. It's so noteworthy

because you're gay. They just talk about your policy. Well, I'm not one of these guys that gets on Twitter all day with the identity politics. The majority of people that are gay in the world of comedy, and there's nothing wrong with this,

that is their thing. And that is the only thing you know about them. And that is what they choose to put forward every minute of every second of every day. Like Harrison Greenbaum. Like Harrison Greenbaum.

Is he even talking about politics? I think there is something wrong with that. Well, sure. I know what you're saying. But I don't necessarily see gay comics doing what you're describing, you know? But if they did, I would suggest there was something wrong with that. What's a gay comic that talks about politics a lot?

Jim David. I think there's a gay comic that talks about politics a lot? Jim David. I think there's a lot of gay comedians that are very far left. And I'm not. There's a lot of real left comics. There are a lot of gay comics that are very far left. But that doesn't mean that they're constantly talking about that and nothing else. Whatever you say, Dan, is going to contradict it. No, that's not true.

Although I just contradicted you. I can tell you that. Certainly not. Whatever you say, Dan, is going to contradict it. No, that's not true. Although, I just contradicted you. I agree with Noam. See, this is a psychological phenomenon where you remember the misses and you forget, you remember the hits and you forget the misses. That's a cognitive bias. I just saw some gay comics that do just talk about politics.

Noam is starting from the premise that everything I say is a contradiction. He forgets all the times, numerous times, that I agree with him, which is actually more frequent. It's contradictory to him. Yes, but you see me as contradictory in nature. Yes. And so you are looking for... You seem a little contradictory. Right now. Yeah. It seems slightly.

Could be a vacuum, though. Dan, tired and fresh off an airplane of an arduous flight, is a little ornery. Okay? It's an ornery Dan. I know ornery. It's an ornery Dan. I know ornery Dan. We have ornery Dan with us. Who's sat next to you? I wonder how they feel.

Let's talk about all this stereotyping gay man real quick. How right wing are you, Noam? Oh, really? Really right wing? I have to take a deep breath just to sit down with you guys. What's your most extreme view? His most extreme view cannot be aired publicly. Wow.

It's like that. I happen to know what it is. What is it? What is it? I can't air it publicly. I don't know what that is. What world would it be in? Would it be in money?

Would it be in immigration? No, race. Great. Race. I'm thinking. No, I don't know. I don't have any particularly extreme views, actually. But they would seem extreme to many people.

To like the government or something? I can tell you the things that I'm most excised. Is that the word? Exorcised? Like, for example, one view that Noam has is diversity. He pisses on the very notion of diversity for diversity's sake. Yes. Not an extreme view. Not an extreme view?

Not in my estimation, but many would feel it to be an extreme view. But wouldn't that be like a socialist view, not like a right-wing view? Well, socialists could be extreme. Well, I don't know. In the idea that you have Variety, for example, that does a top ten list of comics, they put one straight white guy on it. It's not really a stand-up. It's a guy named Southern Mama.

He goes to Monastery, bombs horribly. And so to me, I'm like, I think diversity is important, but if you do a list like that, where you have one straight white guy, you make the thing inherently political, and it delegitimizes other people. And I've been on some of those lists where I go, I'm just being chosen because of my sexuality.

I'm filling a quota, and I don't feel good about that. So I think Noam has a point where it's like, diversity is important, but it can't just be the only factor. Yeah, they swung that hard. It becomes a problem because you swing it so hard the other way. They did that with the Netflix 15, too. Yeah, the Netflix 15.

But it was good. I like the line-up. I don't think diversity is important. Noam goes further. He doesn't think it's important to begin with. I think it's important. I would say that's important, but I think diversity of perspectives. Not only different colors and races and genders.

It could even be different kinds of white people. It could be poor white people, rich white people. Yeah, but that's not what people mean when they say that. Hold on. This is the grand irony. Diversity of perspectives would be great, but that's the one kind of diversity the left has no interest in whatsoever. No, they don't want. But in terms of, listen, I think diversity is the human race.

Does the right want diversity? The human race is beautiful and diverse and America is beautiful for, I'm saying America is beautiful for its diversity that we like sushi and army music and country music and all the different.

This feels like a Trump speech. No, no, I'm saying and all the different things that happened that happened when you put human beings together and you don't and they're not looking at each other

through bigoted glasses, they start picking and choosing from each other and being influenced by each other and assuming that we are all basically created equal.

Like Lenny Clark. Lenny and... And you end up having a very diverse... Leslie are friends. That's right. Like Leslie Jones and Lenny Mark.

Yeah, Lenny Mark. And you end up having a very diverse life. Like my life is very, very diverse. We're in my home. Our guests are from all different races. And my children are mixed and whatever it is.

So it's not that I have anything but good feelings towards diversity. But I don't think that that should become the way you start deciding things. Like, for instance, when you're choosing comics. I think I should be choosing the funniest comics. I didn't realize they only had one straight white guy on there. And as I said to Joyelle,

I said, listen, Joyelle, do you want me to come to you and tell you, listen, I didn't think you were the funniest one, but I put you on because I needed a woman. And she'd be like, no, that would be insulting. That's what diversity is, right? Why should you be insulted? It's diversity. That's why I'm a woman. And she'd be like, no, that would be insulting. That's what diversity is, right? Why should you be insulted? It's diversity. We had this one time,

so when I used to have the show on the series where we would review new albums, I submitted some albums and the producer submitted some albums and we went,

oh shit, all the albums are straight white guys. And then we were like, that's the majority of the albums we got submitted. So we was like,

we got to look around so it's not just that. Obviously, only if the albums were like 100%, everything was just as good. Luckily, we thought about that and then we got a couple

of our favorite albums because we looked a little harder because we didn't want to just put 20 straight white guys on it. Does that make sense? Yeah, but I wouldn't care. Assuming the 20 straight white men were the best of the lot. We found ones that were better than the list that we had.

And look what they do in the name of diversity. They start ranking Asians as being boars and uninteresting. Who said that? At Harvard. Oh, yeah. Because they don't want more than 20% Asians. And this is done in the name of diversity. This is crazy talk.

You've got to treat people as humans. Listen, this is the thing, and I've said this before. When I was a kid, people were... There's still racism today, of course. But when I was a kid, the idea that an organization would be patently racist was much more likely. So people would look at that organization and say, listen, there's no diversity here at all. Something weird must be going on. And it became evidence that you were discriminating in some way.

But then it morphed into, even if we know you're not discriminating, you're still supposed to have diversity. And you have to then sacrifice merit or just your own better judgment. Like they criticized Seinfeld for not having, he has to have black character. He just wants to write about what he knows, you know?

Well, I'm actually going to have to go back on that. Being in New York and having no black has that black character. He just wants to write about what he knows, you know? Well, I'm actually going to have to go back on that. Being in New York and having no black people is an anomaly. That's weird. It's weird to have shots like that. I mean,

as a black person who enjoys Seinfeld, I'm like, then don't watch Seinfeld. No, I like Seinfeld. I want to see a black guy in it.

It is so fun to be like, oh, black cashier, yay. But why should he, yeah, that's fine. So what they do

is end up relegating these black actors to be like the waiters and stuff. I don't know if you know what money looks like. It's great. Black actors are like, oh yeah, we can give you that one small role as opposed to nothing. If you were going to write your sitcom, I don't know your background, but presuming you came out of a black experience, a black neighborhood, whatever it is.

Super black. And you wrote the characters and whatever it is from your life. I would never watch it and say, how come there's no Jews in Seton's sitcom? What the fuck? What if it took place in New York? Right. I agree. If there's only one station of me doing that, I'd be fine.

But if there was 4,000 stations of only white people, then you'd act. I mean, if only black shows. If there was only 4,000 stations of black shows, eventually you'd be like, there's 4,000 stations. Shouldn't there be one Jew show? One thing? No, we're talking about Seinfeld in particular. I know, but I'm talking about 1994 which is all white people on every stage.

I'm expanding your subject. Okay. It's a valid subject. Seinfeld will say, listen, I don't know how they were choosing other shows. All I know is I'm an artist and I'm doing the show that I want to do and stay the fuck out of my show.

And I understand that. Now the network executives and this is typical. They would always make this mistake. They would try to they wouldn't let certain Jews on. You're too Jew-y. Seinfeld had trouble. You're too Jew-y. Turns out the nation didn't care. That's still a good idea.

They wouldn't want too many black shows because they thought, they were surprised MTV was surprised that white people would watch Michael Jackson, right? Right. So it turns out that these conservative decision makers, I mean conservative in the sense of not wanting to take chances, underestimate the fact that the public doesn't really fucking care if the music is good or it's funny or whatever it is. So yeah, you'd be right for criticizing their bad decision-making, not because they didn't have enough black people,

but because obviously there were good black shows that were getting passed over because they thought people wouldn't watch them. I presume it's not because they hated black people. And I agree with that. But the first premise was that Seinfeld was thinking, I'm an artist, fuck you, I'm going to do what I do. But art don't work that way. Art is not something that'm an artist. Fuck you. I'm going to do what I do. But art don't work that way. Art is not something that you just go, fuck you.

I'm going to do it. That's not art. That's just some crap you're doing in your room. Did you see Black Panther? I still need to see that. I did not see that. I did see Black Panther. I have to see that.

I did see Black Panther. I have to see that. I think Seton's point is kind of important because it is collaborative. It's a collaborative thing. And listen, here's the deal. If you have people watching TV, black kids are watching TV, they should be able to look at a show and go, oh, there's a representation of me. You know what I mean? Sure.

But I don't think it's a should. I'm not saying that. I'm saying not because it's a should thing. It's because it's more entertaining to watch people that you are familiar with to see do the things that you want to do. It's more fun. It's like if I could do a whole black cast, it's fine. But if I could get like one Jewish guy because I know the crowd will enjoy it, we're going to do it.

Because it's art and it's commerce. They didn't even have a black love interest on Seinfeld? No one dated a black person at all? There you go. Take it easy. Where's Jared? I don't think Elaine. Good point.

Let's not cross the line. No, I think in my mind, it makes me up to you. Listen, when I used to run the Cafe Wap everything I told like I start my first band there was I think like five white guys

and Roslyn who was the black keyboard player yeah you've seen her she still comes around and over the years and the audience

is always very very mixed but over the years as musicians would leave I would audition new musicians and I would always end up hiring the black musicians because they end up being better and I don't and I would always

and I always in back of my mind saying is am I going to reach a certain critical mass where it's going to look to the audience like oh this is kind of like a black club now and the audience would change and by the end there would be times I was the only white guy on with six or sometimes seven black musicians and the thing thing was, nobody cared. Nobody ever cared. And that is where I think the network executives always went wrong. But Seaton said that people do care, and Tim... And that was wrong. And it was good that somebody pressured them out of that.

But not because diversity is good, but because they were actually not awarding merit. They were misreading, they were actually suppressing merit in the pursuit of being conservative about race.

But Seaton had made the point that black people like to see black people on screen. Not on the court. Noam just said that the audience doesn't care what color the person is they're seeing on screen. At least white people don't care,

I guess is what he was saying. White people are not turned off by a show. When we were kids, we all watched Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids. We all did. But Seton posited that indeed black people do care. They feel they're being kept out. Because it's a majority white country. Everything's made kind of for white people.

The majority population is white. So I think that maybe it's a little more important to have... Because at the end of the day, if you have black people I think 14% of the population, you should have a representation of black people in a show about New York City, about, you know, I mean, it's kind of.

I think if you keep approaching this with the whole should, they should do this, that's the wrong philosophy. I'm saying that. People like it. No, it would be profitable. Black Panther made millions of dollars. There's an untapped market. There's all of those reasons, too. It's just more.

I mean, also, you like to go back to the lineup analogy you were saying. I only like to put on people I find funny. But if there was, how do I say this? If there was a white guy, came up to a white guy and a black guy and they were both equally funny and the whole lineup was already white. You're right, I would choose the white guy. There you go. The fact is that never

happens. But the comedy is different than... There's always reasons to... In terms of diversity, comedy is different. You were trailing off. Okay, go ahead. Feels like a talk at a public library.

It's happening. I feel like I've got to grab the ball. No one's going to pass it. A lot of white guys feel that way. Yeah. We never get the ball. You own the court. No one's going to pass it. 122nd Street Library. A lot of white guys feel that way. Yeah. But, yeah. We never get the ball. Go ahead.

You own the court. As I mentioned on previous podcasts, the thing about diversity in the stand-up context is it has some inherent... Normally, I agree with you. If I'm hiring... If I'm IBM and I'm... Is IBM still around? Do they exist still? Yes.

Okay. Anyway. Yes. It's not the most current name in the world, but if I'm hiring computer programmers, I just want the best computer programmer. And I don't care about diversity for diversity's sake. If I'm hiring comedians, I do want diversity because diversity has some intrinsic value.

Because, for example, Emma, who comes to us from the world of the LGBT community, she's going to talk about things... She's going to talk about things on... From the world of the LGBT community.

After three guys are talking about whatever guys talk about, you know, going on, you know, trying to pick up women or whatever, Emma's going to come on with her unique...

More talking about picking up women. Right, exactly. But from a woman's perspective. Right, right. So there's an intrinsic... Very feminine perspective, too. There's an intrinsic...

Very feminine... I feel like it's everybody's job to do something that's so specific to them that other people couldn't do it. So it can't just be... I mean, you always try to... I would always think of trying to mix it up between other observations

like being from my hometown or other past experiences so it's all but it's being filtered through the lens of LGBTQ you're still making the same point on me here's the thing this whole idea of filtering through the lens it's Emma's brain that's operating

but it's not like a unified group but here's the deal so if you do a comedy taping and you get women and all kinds of different minorities and everything like that, but everybody's between the ages of 20 and 40. Everybody is a liberal. Everybody lives in New York or L.A. Everybody has kind of a similar back story. It's really not diverse because you're taking all of these things and you're boiling them down to essentially the same thing.

So that's my issue is like part of the problem with the identity politics is people feel like some people, not all people, some people feel like they don't have to earn a perspective because they have a perspective. If I just walked around and said, I'm a gay guy, everything's through the gay lens. I don't have to learn or research or I didn't have to have an interesting life. I'm just here's gay talk out my mouth. But there are people that I feel like it's like they feel like that's all that't have to have an interesting life. I'm just, here's gay talk out my mouth. It would be, but there are people that I feel like, it's like they feel like that's all that they have to do. So to me, I'm like

no, you should have an interesting act. But that's not my point. My point is, the benefit of diversity on the comedy stage is when people of different colors and sexual orientations bring something different. Can I ask you? I want to answer. But you're still saying

that you should choose the show based on the quality of the show. Like, I consider Chris DiStefano a diverse straight white guy because he's got a specific point of view. You don't want it to be monotonous. Right. And nobody wants to hear

five of the same type of acts in a row. Yes. But it's not diversity for diversity's sake. And, for instance, and we've said many times, on the basketball court, in the NBA, nobody ever says,

well, you know, you need, how come there's no Mexicans there? You need diversity. Nobody ever would say such a thing because they don't really value diversity. They know you've got to put the best five players on the court, period.

And that might mean you need somebody very tall, you need somebody quick, you do need, you can't have five mean you need somebody very tall, you need somebody quick, you do need, you can't have five of the same type of players, you need a team, it needs to work as a whole, that's what a show is,

but it's not about diversity. And they'll only bring this up when they can get away with it, but the fact is, it never works in the other direction. Nobody ever requires, you know, diversity on the Olympic team or whatever. Did people bring it up to you

when you were doing your Comedy Central show? Did they say, we gotta have a couple Indians? Yes, they do bring it up to you when you were doing your Comedy Central show? Did they say, we got to have a couple Indians? Yes, they do bring it up. And we get emails about it. Really? We get emails like, how come you didn't have a woman? We usually have.

We usually. Right. We almost always have a woman. Whatever. The shows are pretty diverse. I've never seen more Muslim comedians than until I was here. I never, ever had. We get tons of Indian comedians.

We get Indian comedians coming out of our ears. But we get an email somebody say, how come there was a woman on the show? And I will write back, listen, the only thing worse than not seeing a woman on the show was if you had to sit through the only woman who was available for that show. I did it because

the woman I would put on would not have been as funny as what you saw. It just works out that way sometimes. You're in a tough spot because you're like, you're the guy, the buck stops with you. You know, I don't have to ever, like, you know, as comics, we don't ever have to, we never choose a lineup. Really.

You know what I mean? That's not part of our job. I booked one thing once. It was the worst. I hate social anxiety. I hate booking. But you're all full of it because no one, anybody who's not here might complain about a lack of diversity.

Anybody who is in the seller lineup, they don't want to be here because they were a race or a color or a sexual orientation. Well, you're speaking for a lot of people. I suspect there's some people that would just like to be here rather than not be here. Even if they were here because they felt it was diversity driven, they'd rather that than be out on the sidewalk. Maybe. I don't think so. I mean, if you put it that way, my point is. Out on the sidewalk.

In their self-worth. Not in the cellar. Right. I don't hear anybody complaining when it was made very obvious by SNL we need diversity. Remember that? No. SNL. Yeah, yeah.

They stated it explicitly. We want diversity. And then they hired who? They hired. Sasheer. Sasheer. Sasheer. I don't. And then they hired who? They hired... Sashir. Sashir. Sashir, I don't... But then Shay came later.

I think later that year they made him a correspondent. But the point is, Sashir wasn't a... I feel bad for Shay about that. Don't feel bad about Shay. Yeah, don't feel... But Sashir didn't say, no, I don't want this job because you're only hiring... But she deserved it. The job, too.

It wasn't like... she knew that it was more than just her getting that for that reason. Here's the thing. It's weird. It's weird that SNL, listen, here's the reality. Black women are some of the funniest, naturally funniest people I've ever met. It's weird that SNL did not have a black woman. It's weird that they didn't have an Asian person.

It's just weird. Get out of that Harvard fucking weird lampoon world you're in with straight, rich, white dudes. Why is it weird they didn't have an Asian person? Because they're funny. There's got to be a funny Asian person. I've met funny Asian people. There was a comic named Brian Gian.

I mean, come on. The guy in Hangover. It's weird. And listen, all their writers, it's all the same fucking person. Every comedy writer's room. Where'd you go to? I went to Princeton. I went to Harvard. I went here. And they hire their friends and stuff.

Hire a Mike Racine. Hire a garbage man. I don't agree with you. Well, first of all, I don't agree about hire a garbage man. Yes, because I'm telling you right now, I don't want the same type of humor that's always from the certain echelon of society. I think there's a lot of funny- Then don't watch it.

Well, listen, man. Sure, I don't watch it. But I'm saying it's getting to the day. There's so much content out there. Why does SNL... I mean, now more than... You know, when there were three channels and only a few hours in a day,

maybe you can make this argument, you know, there's a limited resource. There's so much content out there. Yeah, I agree. Now, why can't anybody... Why can't SNL be exactly what it wants to be? Harvard-Lamborghini version? Because it's not as funny.

It would be funny. I think it would be funnier. Has the show not gotten funnier since black people got on the show? No, this is what I started to say about Che. The thing about Che is he didn't get on that show

because he's black. No, he got on some smart shit. Che is fucking funny, right? Funny, hilarious, yeah. And the fact that he had to come in there... How do you know that, though? I'll ask you the same question

you asked us. The fact that he had to come in there under that cloud of SNLs looking for diversity, in some way, I think, if I were him, I'd be like, fuck that, you know? I don't want anybody to consider that with me. Now, I don't know that,

but seeing how funny Michael Che is, knowing how smart he is, and how he kills, it doesn't seem to me. But everybody SNL hires, everybody, white, black, or otherwise, are hired on the basis of several criteria, not all of which is the most funny. Listen, if Che got it because he was black, then I guess he didn't deserve it. To be honest, to me, he deserved it. But I hope they didn't deserve it. You know, to be honest, I mean, I would say, but I don't think, to me, he deserved it. But I hope they didn't give it to him because he's black. I hope they gave it to him because he was

fucking funny. I don't, I mean, I have no idea. I can't say what's going on. No, I mean, listen, he's a hilarious guy. I don't know why I think that's why they gave it to him. He's hilarious. They get every, every SNL hiring. Yeah, he does everything that the show needs. Every SNL hiring decision is not, is multifactorial,

I'm assuming. They're casting a show, and I assume that every decision has some basis. This is for such a specific group of people. Who in the world? People wonder how you get on SNL. Can we change the subject?

Can I just address what he just said about this is very specific? Yeah. That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? The notion of diversity and hiring on diversity appeals or should appeal to every American right now. Yes, every American is, I guarantee you, they're riveted. Not necessarily if you're going to sarcastically bash the show. I'm not bashing the show.

I'm going to ask you to stop doing that. It's not. What did you do? I missed show. I'm not bashing the show. I'm going to ask you to stop doing that. It's not. What did you do? I missed it. I tuned out. It's a funny exchange. Did you bash my show? I didn't bash your show.

He said, oh, everybody must be riveted. I detected sarcasm in that statement. I wasn't bashing the show. I'm bashing you. I'm bashing you. That's different.

We're speculating on why someone got hired and we have no fucking idea. And you would never know why somebody got hired. You're bashing the show, number one. Number two, I think it's fairly... I want to move on. I don't know for certain, but I think the notion that SNL hires based on multiple factors is hardly controversial and ridiculous.

Okay, I want to move on. I want to talk about... Noam would like to move on. I want to talk about the N-word. Please do. Okay. This is... Sweet, I'm glad I'm joining the show right when it gets non-contro Please do. Okay. This is... Sweet.

I'm glad I'm joining the show right when it gets non-controversial. Yes. This is the thing. And thirdly, the point that all Americans are interested in diversity is hardly controversial because diversity is basically on everybody's lips 24-7. It is. Every friend I have, they're going all about diversity. Okay, stop, stop, stop. Every minute.

No, diversity is of no relevance or importance in America today. You're right. Are we having one of those episodes? No relevance or importance at all. What happened on that flight? Are we going to have one of those episodes? Okay, listen. I love this guy.

Nobody cares about diversity. It's not the obsession of America right now. You're correct. Go ahead, though. Just let it go. Listen. So listen. Now, I don't know all the details, but there's been a lot of N-word incidents

And the guy at Netflix got fired Because he used the N-word But he was discussing the fact that Basically you shouldn't use the N-word Or something like that And someone else, Papa John's Got fired when he was talking Always in conversations where they're

Actually expressing a sentiment against racism That's 22 And then on the news They won't If somebody gets caught sentiment against racism. And then on the news, they won't, if somebody gets caught, if Roy Moore gets caught saying the N-word, if they have him on tape, they'll beep it out. They'll show beheadings. They'll show people getting

killed. They'll show smart bombs blowing up a town. But they can't they cannot, they shield us from hearing the word. Then, the same people who are totally outraged by any doesn't matter about intention

just to hear the word we'll go home turn on Pulp Fiction laugh in Quentin Tarantino dialogue maybe maybe give their kids Huckleberry Finn to read

I'm saying this is all to me all false and all outrageous what matters I'm not advocating oh and to listen to it

in pop music and I'm not advocating anybody use the and to listen to it in pop music, and I'm not advocating anybody use the N-word. But I think that when somebody is quoting something that somebody said, or somebody says, or somebody wants to talk about what's wrong with the word, or any time you're using it without the intention of racism,

how can that, why is that, why is that worse than seeing somebody get killed or all the things you can say to somebody without the N-word that are horrible? I mean, what's going on? To be clear, out of all the issues you named of people losing their jobs and all this stuff, you're only mad that the news is bleeping it? No, I'm mad that people get fired for... So you're mad people get fired?

Listen, if I were to, I mean, can I say it? Sorry. Don't get nervous. I'm on your side. Don't worry. I ain't going to accuse you of nothing. No, no. One time, Steve King, our doorman, got called the N-word by a customer years ago.

I told him... Steve King was white or black? White. Big Steve. Okay. Oh, yes. Yeah. And I remember discussing with somebody,

and I said, you know, some customer called Steve King, and at that time, nobody looked at me like, said, how could... Like, they understood I was just telling what happened. Nobody thought I was using the word. Right. Now, if you were a reporter on the news today,

and the crab web was against you, even if you had it on tape, you would have to bleep it out. And then they could cut to literally somebody getting murdered, and that would be okay it out. And then they could cut to literally somebody getting murdered. And that would be okay to watch. And then, like I say, Quentin Tarantino wins an Academy Award by putting this word for fun. For fun and giggles in somebody's mouth.

But you can't report it as the actual... It's like, we're going to show you what happened today. We liberated Auschwitz, but we're not going to show you any pictures because that would be upsetting. No, that's real. Show me the pictures because it's the fucking news. I don't know if anybody wants to comment on this because I'll go ahead and take the reins. Again, I like you. I think I love you. You're a wonderful

person, but it sounds like you're making the argument of, well, why can't we say the word? It sounds like you're saying that. You're saying, even though I was saying it in the context of, you know, Steve. Why can't we say the word? It sounds like you're saying that. You're saying, even though I was saying it in the context of, you know, Steve. Why can't somebody quote the word? Maybe if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying, there's all these

horrible things that we will show, and then you can't directly quote the N-word, but it's okay to show the murder. It's okay. Why is the news censoring this one aspect where they don't censor? No, I think he's saying, if you say the N-word in a certain context, if you're just repeating it...

You're talking about how terrible it is. You're talking about how terrible racism is. This is the worst word in the world, blank. Should then you... What consequences

should you suffer for saying that word? And Seton is probably like, hey, let's just not say it. Yeah, I think they're just asking not say it. It's really one of those, hey, hey, you,

stop saying it. It's really not complicated. But then answer me, then what about pulp fiction well fiction i mean well fiction was pretty decent movie yeah but what about what about it wasn't like there's the n-word up and down yeah but it was an artistic of merit artistic so we give more latitude to somebody saying it for fun than we do for somebody reporting or talking about it seriously that's insanity no because art art is art is meant No, because art is meant to heal things. Art is meant to show things and heal the situation

the world is in. And having a conversation against racism is not a good intention? I mean, not by Papa John's guy, because Papa John's guy has been known for his racism. That wasn't the first incident. It's not like he was coming out the blue like, hey, N-word, he's a victim. That dude has been garbage for years. The answer to your question, if I had to answer your question, and I don't necessarily disagree with you,

but the answer to your question with why is it okay with Tarantino and not on the news, at least one answer might be, in the Tarantino movie, you have no choice. If you're going to portray that period of time as it was, you can't have... In Pulp Fiction? I mean, in Django. Django or Pulp Fiction? You can't have... Well, all right, let's talk about Django.

Of course you can. You can't have... You cannot have a slave owner saying African American or whatever. You have to have them using the word that they used at that time. On the news, one can say... It's in the Godfather. It's everywhere. Okay, but on the news, one can say, use the N-word as an adequate substitute to convey the message.

But it's not the news. That is the news. No, the news is the... Then what about my Auschwitz? What is more upsetting than seeing people in a concentration camp? Right, but... Should we not show it? What news are you showing with the Auschwitz camp?

Children should be able to read Huckleberry Finn? Yes, it was making a very valid point about the N-word. It was actually using it. I think it's also a question of degree. It's like, should somebody be fired? Should they lose their entire livelihood? That's what I started with. That's what I'm talking about.

You're talking about that, losing your job over the N-word? I mean, depending on the context and the way it was said, and here's my issue with that. If the guy at Netflix is doing a good job and you replace him with somebody who's not doing as good of a job and the company's losing money, it affects everyone who works for that company, both white and black.

So the idea that getting rid of somebody who might have been an asset to the company because they made this mistake might be long-term a bad move for everybody that works for Netflix. No, when did we jump the moral barrier of judging people based on their intentions to some technicality on some rules

that they may or may not even be aware of? Can I jump back to a year ago, or two years ago? Why are you making a face? No. I'm sorry, you got paranoid. Don't get paranoid again. We're on your side. Everything's okay.

But I will say this, though, that your argument is very unique and interesting because two years ago I was on the same show and we were talking about police brutality and you were arguing that cops should not go to jail or having repercussions for what they were doing. What? I never said that. You said cops shouldn't go to jail.

You said, I don't like him going to jail. I never said that. Let's go to the tent. No, we might have been talking about a specific incident. You were saying cops are saying cops. The job of being a cop is very hard. And just the ramifications of charging them and putting them on trial like that, I don't like that.

I don't think that's a solution. Something should be done, but I don't like that solution. That's not fair what you're saying. I always felt, I know my position on it. Okay. I felt, but I don't want to get bogged down in policing, is that when somebody acts in good faith but mistakenly

a cop, but that depends on the incidents which are in good faith and mistakenly, even overreacts in the fear of their life or whatever it is, I would not put them in jail, as opposed to the cops who shot somebody in the back or murderers or criminals.

Criminals should, cops, of course, should go to jail. Absolutely. I mean, the people who put the plunger in Abner, was it Abner Louima? Yeah. You think I ever said they shouldn't go to jail? Absolutely not. No, never said any such thing.

I was talking about situations where I felt the cops had actually, like, for instance, the guy who shot Amadou Diallo, apparently when he realized that he had shot an innocent man, this came out in the trial, he immediately burst into tears, the cop. This was a guy who, for whatever reason, he really thought he was doing what he needed to do, and when he realized he had killed

an innocent person, he was just, he immediately burst into tears. I would not put that guy in jail. That's what I would say. I would say, you know, why are you going to put somebody in jail for that? And sometimes that's what happens. And I find it hard to judge people in the fight or flight reflex.

I don't know if I were in that situation, I might necessarily get scared into the wrong thing. That's all I ever said about cops. You're talking about fight or flight. I don't see any prior to that. But why isn't the N-word a fight or flight or flight word? Why can't that be? Because in the context of the 400 years of history,

when that word is used, there's always been something horrible happen after that. So why can't we have the bad reaction to that? Because we're capable of understanding context. That's right. You're saying this is bad, or you're quoting someone, you're not using it in the same way.

We've all been in relationships in this room. We talk about racist stuff. We've all been in relationships with people that we know for a fact that they're trying to be nice to us. But they say some shit that makes us flip out. What the fuck do you say that for? Even though you know. If he told me the story, you know, I heard somebody call, somebody said Norm was a kike. Joe told me that.

Which is not a direct quote. What kind of twisted mind would I have to think that Joe was now racist he's coming to me to tell me listen be careful

this guy he called you a kike oh fuck you Joe I would have two reactions to that now if I quoted you saying that

Noam said mistakenly said that I called him that word then I would be like well yeah you didn't say anything wrong. You were just quoting the...

I would have two reactions if Joe Mackey came to me and said so-and-so called you a keiger, a dirty Jew, a filthy Jew, or whatever it was. I don't like that my name is being thrown around in this context. My reaction would be twofold. Number one, I wouldn't blame Joe because I reasonably believe his intentions were pure, but I would be upset to hear those words out of his mouth. And I think you have to look at it. Have you lost your mind?

You said the same thing about the Confederate flag. You said we need to understand. Stop putting on the things I've said. You said we need to have a Confederate flag inside this club. You said it on tape. No, what he said about the Confederate flag is that there might be people that... I got to get off this show. He said there might be people that believe the Confederate flag is a symbol of history

and don't mean anything racial, but they should understand that some people might be hurt by seeing it. Is that correct that you said that? Can you believe I was so liberal? I think the N-word is very similar. I agree with you. If somebody's using the N-word as a similar. I agree with you. If somebody's using the N-word as a reporter and doesn't mean anything by it, they shouldn't be fired.

You guys are totally missing my point. Reporting the news accurately is more important than your fucking feelings. But saying the N-word is pretty accurate. I don't think we need to... We all know what the guy means. Accuracy is not being lost. Accuracy is not being lost.

Accuracy is not being lost. Really, they should beep out the recording of it? Yes, if. You agree with that? If it's going to be that upsetting to people. I'm trying to. Well, when did it become that upsetting? Because when I was a kid, John Lennon had a song,

Woman is the N-word of the world. And John Lennon was this great social justice left-wing warrior, and everybody lauded him for this song. And nobody at the time. Yeah, but times change. That was 40 years ago. We've become more sensitive to it now. Yeah, 40 years later, shit happens.

I think it's a level of comfort. I think what Steve is saying is just don't be comfortable. In those years, we didn't hear it every day in pop music. Yeah. I mean, black people say it, it's okay. That's right. Why is it okay when black people say it? Because the intention is different.

So when they say it on the news, the intention is different. Also, I get you, but when a white guy says it and a black guy says it, even if I hated niggas like a mother, it would not sound or even be as bad as if a white guy. Well, but it is bad. It's not that bad. No, no, what I'm saying, if you catch a white guy on tape saying the word, and you report it on the news, you're reporting it to show how bad it was. You're not reporting it to say it's good.

Right. And I'm saying, why you got to shield me? I get it. It's bad. You can say that. It's the world. It's the news. But also, let me go into this.

No, but I want to watch it on Pulp Fiction where I can get a good laugh out of it. What is accomplished by saying the word on the news as opposed to the N-word? If you look at it the other way, what is accomplished by saying the actual word? Because I think it's a... Because I don't want to be protected... But maybe it's not you. Maybe it's a 13-year-old kid. So let's make a list of all the things

that somebody might think they should be protected from on the news. Someone's doing that. Someone's doing that. Yeah, there's a guy. Don't worry about it. That's my point. There's an Excel spreadsheet that's being updated hourly. What I'm saying is, you guys, it's doing that. Yeah, there's a guy. Don't worry about it. That's my point. There's an Excel spreadsheet that's being updated hourly.

What I'm saying is, you guys, it's the news. You're showing, you might be playing a hidden camera recording of something somebody said or did. And as horrible as I think using the N-word is, I don't think it's worse than seeing somebody killed. Who? What video? What are you talking about? What video have you seen that somebody's been killed?

I'm getting curious. They will show... 9-11, for example. That was a very... That was a wide shot from 500 feet away. No, no. We saw people

jumping out of the flames in 9-11 to their death. And they were saying the N-word as they did it. I'm just saying, but nobody's getting killed on TV like you're saying. He just gave an example.

That wasn't a valid example. That was literally a wide shot. You saw specks. You did not see bodies. You saw specks. It was like an ant's figure. That's a pretty thin read. I know what I was watching.

It was very upsetting. You see what the N-word, but you know what the N-word, too. You know what you're watching. Go ahead. When Benazir Bhutto was blown up in Pakistan, they showed the video of the explosion. But you didn't see bodies. You really couldn't, but they showed the video of the explosion. But you didn't see bodies. You really couldn't, but they showed the explosion. It's just a weird thing to hold

on to, the idea that you just want to hear the N-word on the news. I don't think that's true. Let me just say, it's part of our whole outrage culture. This is just one aspect of where everybody is... Let me see what's really going on here.

Everybody's just trying to catch somebody in something. I agree with that, sure. And this is one example of it, but there's many examples of it. This guy, James Gunn, who made some tweets about pedophilia, now he gets fired.

This is a close cousin of what's going on. It's like, there's all these landmines which have been placed without our knowledge and 10 or 15 people need to die on it before now we're told that the landmine is there. And even the people defending him were writing, well, you know, these jokes were out. Yeah. Reprehensible, but they were just jokes. Really?

Nobody really thinks the jokes are reprehensible. When we were kids, we told dead baby jokes. Yeah. Helen Keller. Only the most brittle mind cannot understand that a joke about something is not somehow sympathy to it happening. What was the joke? You told me the pedophile joke?

That's the old classic where the guy in the van drives up to the little kid and says if you get in the van, I'll give you a piece of candy. And the kid says, if you give me the whole bag you can cum in my face. And if you said cum in my face N-word, that's a great joke. Does anybody take from that that somehow

is that reprehensible what Dan told that joke? It's a joke. It's a device. We get the humor. It's... So this is what's going on everywhere we turn. They're trying to catch somebody on something everything but what we were always taught

matters. What's in your heart, what your intention is. Also, they try to blame jokes for society's ills. This guy made a joke where a woman's made fun of, don't you know that women are terrified of their look? Look, that's true, but that was happening long before and will be happening long after. The joke, we try to blame comedians for society's... Well, there's nobody, right now, which is kind of sad and it depresses me.

If you want to just say things without any repercussions, nobody on the right or the left agrees with you. Like both extremes don't want people to speak freely, which is crazy. Yeah, it's hard. People on the right and the left are going to weaponize whatever you say and use it against you. And it's like we're in a moral panic. Not necessarily weaponized but even try to prevent you from having the right to speak.

They'll try to prevent you from deplatforming. They'll get you off Twitter. I don't know what y'all... I mean, honestly, I know the comedy world and a lot of people

are mad about the outrage culture. I don't really get y'all's anger. The world has always been telling us not to say stuff. There's never been a time when they asked us not to. I mean, right now we're going through every 100 years in the society.

100 years ago, we had the same kind of whole big conservative reestablished manners movement back in 1900 to 1910. Because 1890s is when we were really debauchery filled. And then we're going to do it again. I mean, it's just like we did in the 50s again. We had a big conservative movement then. We're doing it now every 50 years. No, I've never seen anything like this. Because we have different technology.

Shit happens. We're going to do it. I've never seen anything like this. Because we have different technology. Shit happens. We're going to get... I've never seen anything like it. When they're organizing now boycotts against... Well, this is what happened.

They did that before. There's always been boycotts and stuff. Against a comedy club. They boycotted Birth of a Nation, but nobody cared. So there's a comedy club

which has a podcast studio, not ours, and somebody on... You know, and in that podcast studio, these guys, you know, and in that podcast studio, these guys, you know, just saying whatever they want

and I think they use the N-word. And let me say, using the N-word in a way that I wouldn't use the N-word. Like, you know, you know me well enough. I've never,

I've never used it. I just feel bad when somebody, only in traffic. You report, you report. No, I feel bad when I see someone who did say it

and didn't mean anything bad suffer horrible consequences. I don't use it. didn't mean anything bad. Right, right. Some horrible consequences. I don't use it. I don't have any problem in controlling myself. I've never used it. But what was I just talking about? Somebody, the band. Oh, so it's a podcast.

And this comedy club, you know, doesn't police what the comedians say on the podcast. Right. Somebody, one of the comedians says something. I don't even know what they said. And now they're trying to boycott that comedy club. And so what's the pressure on me now? The pressure on me

is I got to start fucking policing every comedian. Your particular thing may be the only word you don't like to say, but there's going to be somebody about everything.

Well, it seems like And you don't have a problem with that? You're a comedian. It's customer service. They're going to bitch regardless. I can give them the best Apple computer ever.

There's going to be somebody bitching about that. We need to push back against that. You got to tell them to go fuck themselves. You've just got to say don't come. Even the comedians, you don't agree with. You would think that

if Anderson Cooper played the recording of somebody getting caught in a hidden camera saying the N-word, that Anderson Cooper should get fired? No, he's not saying that. He's saying people have been complaining about bullshit for years. He's saying it's not new. I don't see that situation being valid to this

situation here. Would you think Anderson Cooper should get fired? Should he get fired if he plays a tape? No. But I don't think that's a valid comparison to what we're doing here. Should he get fired if he's caught on camera, caught in the editing room prior talking about the tape and uses the word that the guy's going to use on the tape? Yes, but I also don't think

that's ever happened either where somebody's lost their job doing that. What happened with the Netflix guy, Joe? Do you know what he did? Well, I mean, it seems like with the podcast, they just weren't listening to the tape, and they put out this tape that the club owners didn't know anything about. What happened with the Netflix guy that got fired? Oh, I don't know.

I think it's a similar thing, but I think he had been warned maybe once before. Yeah, you know, this doesn't happen once. This is a perpetual thing. I think he said it again. I agree. The firing to me, that's the extreme response, the firing. I don't know.

If you do it two or three times, it's understandable. But if you do it one time, maybe a suspension. I mean, it seems pretty crazy to fire somebody who clearly rose in that organization for a reason. Like, the guy's talented. He was speaking against racism was my understanding. Right, yeah, so then I mean, it seems... I cannot comment on the context. I have not. If you've got to talk, I'll look it up.

Noam, what would you say? Noam, I've noticed you're obviously very much concerned about not using the N-word in its entirety. I've never used the N-word, for Christ's sake. This is pretty interesting. So on Yelp, we had a complaint about Greer Barnes using the N-word, for Christ's sake. This is pretty interesting. So on Yelp, we had a complaint about Greer Barnes using the N-word.

Except the person who identified themselves as a white person actually spelled out the word that Greer said. And probably didn't use the word accurately because he wasn't saying E-R. I know for a fact. In any event, so they actually spelled...

So what was interesting to me is, first, that Yelp didn't have any kind of bot or whatever it was that filtered this out. Yelp printed the word. And then I had to answer this customer, and my answer was, look, Pryor and Rock and virtually every famous black comedian has used that word. And it has a different intention and a different meaning out of their mouths, and that's just the way it goes. You should understand that. Right.

But it was a white person was all outraged by a black guy using it. Anyway, I thought it was pretty dumb. A lot of the outrage culture is white. I mean, black people are just going, hey, thanks for talking about us. But, you know, it's mostly a dumb question. I think a lot of the outrage culture, too, is that people are breaking a rule because I think people know that there's context. And I think people know that you can try to judge people's intentions. But say, for instance, someone didn't know that transsexual, the abbreviation of tranny, was offensive now.

And they say it. They're like, hey, you can't say that word. You're a bad person. And this Twitter hate and outrage comes up. It's like, well, look, I think we're all capable of knowing that this person might not have known this in the context of what they were saying. People just love, people love a mob. People love to be part of a mob.

That's just what it is. People love it. People love to be traffic cops. Yeah, they love to be part of a mob. Wait, is the word transsexual bad now? Tranny is bad, we know. But the word transsexual instead of transgender, is transsexual bad?

Transsexual sounds like Rocky Horror Picture Show. Isexual bad. I actually sounds like rocky hard picture I do I do want to say this There is no word Like the n-word. I don't think an insult of a transsexual whatever getting that wrong the the n-word has a bit So what I was wondering if transsexuals is no longer authorized even if it's not Only somebody would have to be totally insincere in the other direction to try to pretend that any word compares. It's a singular

word with a singular hurtfulness and a singular place in American history. I get all that. Right? Transsexual, you mean. Yeah. But, nevertheless, I don't think that to pretend that

the sound of it rather than the intention is what matters, I think is just... Well, that applies to every word in English language. That's right.

No, I apply it to every word. But I mean, like fucking pussy, I mean, pussy was, the pussy tape, I feel like they edited the pussy tape,

didn't they? The Trump tape. Yeah, the Trump pussy tape. No, I think they played it. I've heard both versions. I've heard, grabbed her in the beep and I'm also grabbing the pussy tape. But I think think they play it. I've heard both versions. I've heard grab her in the beep, and I'm also grabbing the pussy. But I think they should play it. No, I'm questioning.

I've been trying to ask. Okay, I agree with you, by the way, that intentions matter. No one should get fired for having benign intentions because they use the N-word. But in your private discourse or in your discourse, knowing how black people feel about that word, would you use it in front of a black person and as a general matter? Or would you take their feelings into account and say the N-word? I don't know. I've never.

I mean, you do believe that we should take their feelings into account. Of course I do. And I don't think I've ever used it in front of anybody, black or white. I'm going to put it this way. I think the times in my life when I've actually uttered the word have almost always been talking to somebody black. Out of anger, yeah. He's like, he was screaming at someone black. Discussing something like this or when that customer did call Steve that in that conversation, that kind of thing.

But of course, I'm not, I'm not, I don't know. You know what? I should just shut up about this. You don't have to defend yourself. No, no. But what seems to me to be clear as day, I don't know, people just being argumentative or they really don't see it. What I'm advocating is not for people to be insensitive to each other or not be kind to

each other. Yeah, yeah. I'm saying that people who are actually expressing in their mind kindness, like I'm against racism, it was terrible that somebody got called and then they say the word, to actually treat them as if they said it that there's no difference. It doesn't matter how you

said it, it just matters that it came out of your mouth. To me, it's absurd. And then, I'm sorry, nobody really answered. And then, it's so horrible that I think it should be hard to watch in Pulp Fiction too. I don't buy that you just can't tolerate other dudes. It's probably, I will say this. You can sit and watch. I think that Tantino dialogue is nothing.

It's probably a small group of white people that are like, I hate racism, and here's the end word. Like, that's a few very unlucky white, because there's probably a lot more that use it in a way that was not, you know. Yeah, exactly. I don't think, I think if you own or are president of a Fortune 500 company, your job is to use words to run people and to influence people. And if you misstep

on something that big, then you clearly aren't really there for the job. I mean, if you're in the mailroom spouting out the N-word, okay, I don't care.

You ain't going to mess up my mail. I think that people trying to take some, let me tell you something else. If you're in charge of people,

like I want my president not to say it. I want him to be smart enough to be like, yo, say the N-word. No, no, the president, no. The president's going to say it. President of a company, I mean. Ten years ago. The president's going to say it.

The president's going to say it. Ten years ago. You tell me this is wrong. Right, 2008. Ten years ago or 15 years ago, if I was in a conversation with the black guys who do security in the pussycat, if I were to have said the word,

quoting what somebody said or whatever, they would not have been upset with me. They would have understood I was just quoting it. It's changed. Now the norm has changed, so they would look at me different, like, oh, now you're actually stepping out in front of somebody. I'm stepping down a slippery slope here

in the idea that I'm going to say that they weren't, like they were uncomfortable. If your boss, who you know is cool, says that to you in this situation, then you could, yeah, we're not going to say nothing. I'm just saying,

because that was that. You could be right, but I'm telling you. 2003, it's a different power position right there. You could be right, but I don't, but I,

and I have to be honest, of course you could be right, but I'm not, I'm not that full of myself. And I am very keen to exactly what you're saying. I'm not arrogant in that way. When I've known a guy for 10 years and I'm discussing something bad and I'm discussing how horrible it was that somebody said something, I don't think that's what was going on. I think that people could use it in

conversations. It seems crazy that the guy got fired. If it happened the way where he's going, this happened and that. It seems crazy to fire the guy off one offense like that. He used it twice in a conversation. But the conversation was about

racism. He was conversation was about racism. He was against it. Whatever. It's not just the N-word. It's the whole outrage culture. I don't think anybody should use it. The news disturbs the whole thing. The news in general, though, is a problem. What about Huckleberry Finn? I should let my third reader...

Absolutely. It's great. It's a great book. But why is that... Art is... We've spoken earlier. He was making a point about the word. He used the word so much to make the word Absolutely. It's great. It's a great book. But why is that? Oh, why is art? Because art is, we've spoken earlier, he was making a point about the word. He used the word so much to make the word actually get numb.

There was a method to that. Can I finish the book analysis real quick? What if it's a history book? What if it's a history book that's quoting something? Yeah, what if it's a history book that's quoting somebody?

Well, then, yeah. Oh, I think so, yeah. I mean, what kind of history book? Is it a history book high school? And that's different than the news. Is history book different than the news? Well, that's... Yeah. It's not. No, it's not. I mean, what kind of history book? Is it history book high school? And that's different than the news. Is history book different than the news? Well, that's, yeah. It's not.

No, it's not. I mean, in the practicality, in the theory, it shouldn't be different. But we can't, I mean, we all are. Here's what I would say. We all don't agree with the news at the table. We all see that it's a story-oriented base that's actually meant to get people to grab their attention. The news is on in public places. It's on in restaurants and bars.

It might be on at home. There are other people, and you can't control who's listening to it. So I think if you're saying words like that, and there's four-year-old kids listening to it, that might be the only point that I would think of. Thank you. That's pretty good. I mean, that would be the thing.

But then you shouldn't read the history book either of them, I guess. Well, you can control who reads it when they read it. You can control who reads it when they read it. You can control who reads it when they read it and how they read it. And you can give them the context before, during, and after. I'm thinking back to my high school American history class

and we talked about slavery and we talked about all that. I don't recall ever reading the N-word or hearing my teachers say it. It might have been. We're going back a few years, no doubt. But I think it would have been sensitive

if a teacher teaching a history class, even in the 1970s when I was in school, would have used that word. I think it would have been sensitive even then. I was talked about a lot in my high school just because my high school was like halfway. I'm from Long Island. No one in high school English class,

nobody ever said it. People said those people. And I think that's, you know what I mean? I think it was respectful, and it was right. It was much better. I never heard it. But even, we did read Huck Finn, I believe, in 10th or 11th grade,

in 10th or 11th grade English class, whatever year it was. And again, I don't, and we also read To Kill a Mockingbird, which was also heavily racially tinned. And I don't remember the teacher ever using that word. So as I say, I think even then it was. Yeah, he used that specifically. Back to the analysis of that book.

I'm going to finish it now since it's a fucking book. He said niggas so much to dehumanize him and then actually find humanity again with him because he was just like, the whole thing was like, well, nigga. But I want to tell you something. I actually come down slightly differently than you. I tell my mother this. I actually would take Huckleberry Finn out of the high schools. No one doesn't like it.

No. Because exactly the opposite take is what you have. I think that it's going to upset the black kids, or it might upset the black kids to be hearing this, or just be reminded of that part as literature. And I'm saying why they have their whole lives to seek this kind of stuff out on their own. We should start...

We don't need to be picking the few books that have the N-word and forcing them to read it while they have the white kids in the class with them. I don't... Yeah, we should start

teaching history with Obama to all the black kids and be like, what's your problem? Well, no, no. Your argument, Noam, is a sense that that means black kids weren't talking about it before they came to school.

Like, we're talking about race, but not as soon as we know English. It can make them uncomfortable, as opposed to the news, which I think is a high calling. You report the news. I think if we hear a recording, we're able to size it up.

But in schools, like, why make these kids uncomfortable? Not necessary for them to read a book with the N-word in it. That's how you learn. You've got to learn, and being's how you learn. You got to learn and being uncomfortable helps you learn. So then put it on the news then.

All these kids in colleges are complaining that they're uncomfortable. It's like, fuck you. You're here to learn. Now you're speaking on the other side of your mouth. They edited that, didn't they?

They edited Huckleberry Finn recently. Haven't they? I think they did. They did edit it. They took the N-words out. It's actually a gross book. It's now just a book about how a black guy

and a white guy are great friends and going to rap. Yeah. It's literally... Instead of calling him's now just a book about how a black guy and a white guy are great friends and go on a raft. It's literally... Instead of calling him a nigga Jim, they called him Slave Jim. My buddy Jim. He's much nicer. My only black friend Jim.

It's interesting that you say that. You don't want to upset the black students, but why would you want to upset on the news if there's an adequate substitute that conveys the idea with equal precision? You know, maybe you're right. Maybe you guys made me rethink this. But I have to say, I always felt that there is something.

I understand what you're saying. You don't want it to be sanitized. Do you want me to answer or not? Yeah. My brother. That veracity for veracity's sake. Yeah. If you're going to quote something, you're fucking quoted.

And if you're going to play a recording of something, I mean, there may be times you want to beep it because there's little kids watching, but usually what they do is they warn you in advance that this may want to have little kids not listen to whatever it is. But if there's ever a time we want it unvarnished, it's when we're learning about

truth and what's really happening in the world. That's why if you're going to teach something about the Holocaust in high school or whatever, you show them the horrible images of the Holocaust. We know it's upsetting, but just because it's upsetting is not the end of the story. It's truth.

And to punish somebody or be angry at somebody, not because they were bigoted or racist or they were getting behind using, but they're just presenting listen, this is what happened. It's blaming the messenger. Don't blame me. I'm just playing this tape for you. This is what happened. This is what we caught

this politician saying this. Play the tape. That's what he said. But they're not showing, I do not agree with the premise that they're showing murder on TV. I just don't think they're doing that. I think the benefit of the thing here is just be very careful. That's a word where you can't, you shouldn't be comfortable

with it. You got to be very careful. And if you're the leader of a company, you got to really think about everything you're saying. You should never say it. That's why you make all that money. Yeah, it's not like it's new. It's not like we're going to come out, it's not like it's new this year. Like, alright, I'll stop saying the N-word, 2018. We've been asking for a while. Yeah. Okay, but you do understand

that it does spread like a cancer to so many other things, including tweeting something. Unless you're Joy Reid, in which case you can say anything you want about gays or whatever it is, and you get a total pass because you're a black lady on MSNBC.

But other than that, in the real world, everybody's now being scrutinized for their tweets, for their jokes, for their political opinions. Yes. And this is horrible. Learning how to act civil in a society, it happens. You've got to learn it. Yes.

It's a civil thing. So that joke that Dan just told, 10 years from now, if he's directing a movie, they should fire him for telling that joke? Because that's what happened to this guy, James Gunn. Yeah, but he's going to get his job back. That's just a scenario. We're talking principle here. The principle is he didn't handle it right. He didn't handle it right.

Let me tell you how serious this is. When Dan told that joke just now, I had a twinge of sadness because I realized he's given up on his career. He said, I'll just tell it. Fuck it. I'm kidding. Of course. But what I'm saying is true. If Dan were to be directing a Marvel thing, he would get fired for that. I think there's a middle ground.

There's got to be a middle ground between. And you laughed. I did laugh. There's got to be a middle ground between being offended at everything and just saying, I'm not going to say the N word under any circumstance. Let's just take that word off the table. And there's got to be a middle ground. Because I agree with you. We are out of control without Ray K the table. And there's got to be a middle ground. Because I agree with you. We are out of control

without rate culture. I don't have to find a middle ground. You can just stop saying the N word. That's what I mean. This is what I mean. That's what I mean. That's the middle ground. It's like, well, we're not going to say that. And there's a contextual... Or accept that you're going to make people uncomfortable when you say it. You've got to just accept it. You're asking right now for people to not

feel anything when they hear that word. You put words in my mouth again. I never said they shouldn't do it. I got to just accept it. Like, you're asking right now for people to not feel anything when they hear that word. Let me ask you a question. I didn't. You put words in my mouth again. I never said they shouldn't do it. I said, I know it's upsetting, but it's the news. That's why I compared it

to the Holocaust. When you hear the Louis bit with that word in it, do you think that should not have been written? I just think, oh, man, he has a lot of nigga bits. That's my first thought.

He has a lot of punchlines with niggas. Same thing I feel about Martin Scorsese. I'm like, every movie has a nigga monologue. That's weird. You just note it. So what dolines. The same thing I feel about Martin Scorsese. I'm like, every movie has a nigga monologue. That's weird. You just note it.

So what do you think about Louis' bit? I think I liked the first one, but he kept coming up with clever versions of it. And I was like, all right. But the first one was good. When he kept doing it, it got uncomfortable. But it didn't bother you? Oh, the first one. Which one are we talking about, by the way?

I don't know. Any time. In other words. Because I remember the time machine bit, but I think he had another one before that. I remember the Time Machine bit where it was just him going back in time, and it's just like, if black people can't go between 1980 and... I remember it was a nigga in that line. But you see, you kind of make my point, because I'm saying

if he'd written that bit now, or anybody wrote that bit now, the reaction would be outrage, even in the black community. He had also a lot of masturbation jokes, too, back then. But at the time, people were no more offended by the N-word then than they are now. But at the time, people were, at that time, still separating when somebody, like when John Lennon or when Louis would say it with a different intention. Grown-ups were able to distinguish between the intention behind somebody saying it mean or racistly or whatever, or somebody make, or Louis doing a bit, which I presume was to make people think about racism and why they should be against it.

Yeah. And now we've morphed into, the intention doesn't even matter. Yeah. If you utter those sounds, that's the same thing. And I think we've taken a step back in terms of being thinking humans. I can see that. I can go with that. I just, I think there is a

noteworthy time to sit and ponder the reason why. I think if you use that word now, you should think about it more. We went from a time

where it was used completely, just frivolously, to now people are thinking about it more. When Louis Tom, he was really thinking about it.

Now it's like, nigga, really, really, really contemplate. Do you need to say this word to convey whatever message you got? And I think at this time

you really don't have to. And so if you still do it anyway, that means you really want to say it, which makes people who follow you uncomfortable. And if you're a leader, that's just how things work. But that's an interesting point.

What he's saying is now that it's so politically incorrect to say the N-word, if you do say it, that might mean in and of itself that your intentions are less than pure because nowadays everybody's on notice. Yeah.

I mean, also too, everything else we gotta go, right? Everything else is he knows all those business guys, they know about business trends, they know about marketing plans, they know how everybody feels. They fucking choose the color of their logo and they worry about that shit. But for some reason, nigga, they just cross their brain. Like, oh, I don't even know

why they feel anything about that. Even though you spent like fucking $20,000 researching your logo. But you understand that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying very much the opposite. I'm saying that, of course, people should feel something about it. But I'm saying just because something's upsetting

for a news situation is not reason people can take it. People can handle something upsetting on the news because they know it's truth. Like, they can handle it in a history book. And what also leads me to think there's a certain falseness to it is that in entertainment, it rolls right off their back. And all I'm saying

is that I would like to see a society where people didn't use the N-word, certainly not frivolously, but if they did use it in some context, the most important thing we would try to determine was what was their intention. In the same way if a foreigner who doesn't speak very good English were to use it, we would say, oh, you know, he doesn't really speak English.

We wouldn't, it's not absolute liability. So, you know, you understand, and when somebody is using it in a conversation where they are actually decrying racism, I can't even imagine getting angry at them.

I say, you know, I wish you wouldn't use it. Okay, sorry, my bad. But that should be the end of it. I mean, they were there. I think we can all agree if the intentions are pure,

then you shouldn't get angry at them. That doesn't mean it's okay to do it. I don't know. Pleasure has to fit the crime. We mostly also agree. The intentions are pure. It sounds like the end of a fairy tale.

By the way, if the intentions are pure, you may say it. But I also agree with Seton that nowadays anybody that uses that word, I question their intentions because everybody is on notice. Right. It's just almost like guys who give dirty jokes now. Like, hey, girl, nice ass. I don't mean it now. It's a weird situation. I can talk about your ass.

You know what I was like? You know she's going to be weird about it, and you're doing it anyway. Why? What is your goal? I mean, the Tim Gunn situation was weird. But I want to see what the Netflix dude said. Yeah, I don't know what he said. Right now, all I see is the videos of people being called when they're going to pools and they're going to CBS.

That's the only videos I watch now. I don't read articles. Don't say it in CBS. How about we just, what do you think about Bill Maher's house? That's right, Bill Maher got away with it. He didn't really get away with it. He got scraped over the coals Maher got away with it. He didn't really get away with it. He got scraped over the coals. He got away with it.

He wasn't fired, but he didn't get away with it clean. His reputation suffered. Yeah, I mean, black people jumped on board. I am kind of caught. He does bother me. That was sad. That was like... Did that bother you, Satan? It was just sad.

Yeah, it's just like every... I find... Not every. Most... That's the way I work, too. A lot of white guy comics who try to be smart will have an N-word joke. And it's just...

I always just find it very desperate. That's all. Yeah, I didn't like the Bill Maher... See, I would have never felt comfortable making the joke like Bill Maher did ever in a million years. Yeah, well, I mean, he's fucked a lot of black porn stars,

so he feels empowered. Now, but why, in the name of humor, though, Noam, can you find any forgiveness for that? I mean, maybe the joke wasn't good, but... I wouldn't have fired him, but I found it to be very presumptuous on his part. As opposed to if he was complaining about racism and he described what somebody said, I would see that totally different.

But he was being too familiar. That's not for you to say, Bill. That's behind the scenes with your black women. I'm sorry. I'm really jealous he fucked Karen Stevens. I really would have fucked her. I don't know who that is. Super head.

Super head. She came out with two books about how she just sucked some of the most famous things. I'm sorry. What did that guy say? He recounts an incident that occurred several months ago in Freedland. Oh, he's Jewish. Oh, boy. Oh, no.

Oh, boy. That's the end of our show for today. Shocking. Use the N-word during a meeting with public relations staff during a discussion about sensitive words. So they're discussing what words are sensitive. And in that discussion, he said the word that is sensitive among adults in the room. And he got fired for it. Now, were these adults all white?

That was the whole article? I need more context than that. That still is like he just was walking in the room. That still does not seem like there's grounds. It has to be a twist. Freeland used the word a few days later in front of two black employees in the human resources department when they were speaking to him about the prior incident. So in the discussion about the incident, he used the word in the incident.

He was like, what do you mean, nigga? I can't say nigga. The use of the phrase N-word was created as a euphemism. You can read the whole thing, but the point is that he also started a meeting by saying, what up my N-words? Again, regretful language. Yeah, it sounds like this guy really didn't want a job. Let's be honest.

Why did he get fired? He got fired because Netflix was afraid of the bad PR. Yeah, they were nervous. Not because anybody really thought. But they're giving him a comedy special. I don't like you using the word PR. That's a racial slur. So, Joe, what do you want to say? Oh, I don't recall it this time anymore, but yeah, it seems like it's a trap if you're going to ask people to talk

about words you can't say. It's just a weird... You know what I think it is? Because I felt this urge. I don't know anything about this guy. I'm reading now. On the one hand, it seems kind of ridiculous that he didn't know better. It seems like that. I mean, he's making a lot of money. No, no. But there is this other thing

because I feel it sometimes. That when you know better, but you're so bothered by the ridiculousness of the hoops you know you have to jump through, that you don't do it. You're fucking like, fuck it. I'm not a marionette on a string.

I know I'm not saying anything. I'm discussing sensitive words. And I'm not going to... We all know what we're talking about. Let's cut the bullshit. Yeah, that's right. And I suspect that that might have, I have no basis for that. That's just, I mean, at the end of the day, I agree that the firing was extreme, but it's like, that is the kind of the world that we're just living in now. And if you're a TV executive, the fight's not going to come from TV executives. It's not going to be the entertainment business that fights back.

Because most people in it are just so desperate to work that they're not going to come from TV executives. It's not going to be the entertainment business that fights back. Because most people in it are just so desperate to work that they're not going to fight back. So wherever that fight happens, it's not going to be here. Yeah, you're right. That's one of the toughest industries to get any kind of job in. It's just not. I was at JFL and I was talking to all these people and I'm like, oh, everybody here

whichever way the wind blows, they're on that. They're going. In two years, if the PC shits out and everybody's back saying the N-word, they'll walk around with shirts with it on up at JFL, you know? Yeah, and I also feel like the more and more we try to come up with who can say what and this person can't say this and everything is offensive, it just, we empower people more who actually want to use that word. It's ten times what it used to mean. Well, look at the world that's been created.

Trump is the president. Republicans control both houses of Congress, you know? So there is like a backlash to that stuff. To political correctness. There's a huge backlash. I'm reading this article. Dude got a bunch of chances. He said it the first time.

They were like, hey, can you not do that? And he was like, what are you talking about? And then he got fired. So I'm just like, hey, can you not do that? And he was like, what are you talking about? And then he got fired. Because his attitude was, I'm discussing the words. Listen, I think we're saying the same thing. And that's, it is what it is.

I'm surprised. I agree. It's a weird thing. I'm surprised. I think that you and I actually don't see quite as differently as it might be coming off here. I don't think quite as differently as it might be coming off here. I don't think that if you were in that room with that guy, as reported, if he was really discussing sensitive words

and you felt, Seton felt, that he was coming from the right place, I don't think you would have been calling for his head. No, I wouldn't have. No, no, I don't think you would. I just believe, it's more or less like, I don't believe in rape, but if you're walking down a dark alleyway with a skirt on, I'm like, just put some pants on. You know what I'm saying? I'm like one of those, be careful.

If you're a white guy in this world, I will be careful. But I don't believe you would call for somebody to be fired. But if you were in that room. No. You're in that room and you're an executive at Netflix and the Jewish guy or the white guy, whatever he is, says, oh, right, everybody, seat and listen up. Seaton, Joe, Tim, everybody, listen up. Here's some words that shouldn't be said. And he said that word.

Would you just let it go? Or would you say, hey, I appreciate it. I mean, I know you're coming from the right place, but I prefer you didn't say that word. Yeah, again, it'll be how he was saying it. Because, like, they're saying a racial sensitivity meeting. I don't know what happened in that meeting. It's how you're saying we weren't there I mean it's possible

if we saw we'd both say oh no he was out of pocket there but I'm saying it's written but if two people though if I said something offensive about women

and like two women came up to me like hey I didn't like what you said I'm gonna be like what the fuck you talking about chicks I'm not gonna do that

because I know I'm gonna lose my job so I just feel like I don't know it's a political world making all that money I know I'm going to lose my job. So I just feel like, I don't know, it's a political world making all that money anyway. Comedians, you need to worry about this.

Constantly. That's all we think about. But that's why I'm surprised you guys were pushing back on it. It's one thing I'm not worried about. The job has been like this

the entire time. I worry that I'm going to do it by accident and I didn't even know with transsexual and I don't know what the terms are and it's not that

it comes out of no hate. I sympathize with people who are struggling with gender identity and going through that. I have no ill will towards them. But if you accidentally say a word that is offensive to them, I just didn't know. I'm worried my parents are going to die

before I succeed. But lower on the list. Right. And I'm going to add to what Joe said, because I think he'll agree. Not only do you sympathize with them, but you would like to treat everybody with respect. Yeah, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I just don't. I work extra hard because I want to hurt everyone, but I want to do it with acceptable words. Right.

So I just try to hurt them a real responsible way. It can be done. It can be done. You try. The transsexual world does bother me in that they they can't take any jokes Everybody gets joked on and yet they they get they have the biggest protesting thing and I have a theory of why and this is Where I get offensive you can cut this out if you want. I don't want to cut it out. Here we go.

I know, exactly. Here's why I think a lot of mal-rates. I think 75% of it is completely valid. I think 25% of it could be factored in that a lot of them are getting transitional surgery, and they're getting injected with hormones. Now, I know that's offensive, but I'm just saying you cannot think reasonable when you have estrogen or testosterone

injecting your body. This is why most athletes kill people. I mean, I gotta be honest. He brings up a good point. I mean, honestly, it's a good point. I'm just saying,

nobody talks about like, yo, this is good. Is that true? Is that a good point? I think it's a good point. I need somebody gay to co-sign it, otherwise we're gonna get too gay.

I'm not the gay that's ever, you know. Get Guy Branum to co-sign's... Tweet me if I'm crazy, but I completely think their struggle is real. But I think their outrage outweighs almost everybody else's outrage, and I think that's an anomaly. I think that's for a reason for that.

I got to run. I got to get a hormone treatment. Thank you for having me. And you know what would be better when somebody does cross these lines? It's better to talk about it and explain it to them, not try to find the capital punishment. When you don't... Yeah, it's like,

you know, alright, dude, you shouldn't have said this. Even though I think it's certainly sensitivity training, but teach somebody, but fire them and I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Crazy stuff. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Tim. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Satan. Dan, go ahead.

I'm not worried about the encroachment of political correctness. It's yet another factor, another obstacle that I'm perfectly, I think, perfectly able to navigate. And I have much bigger fish to worry about. Say goodnight, Dan. You know, I'm getting old and Alzheimer's setting in. But anyway, goodnight. Goodnight.