The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - To Hire or Not to Hire

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Jordan Weissmann, Alingon Mitra and Mark Normand

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here on Sirius XM Channel 99. My name is Noam Dwarman. I'm the owner of the Comedy Cellar. I'm sitting here, as always, with the emetic Mr. Dan Natterman. Emetic? You're talking about throwing up? Anti-emetic. The anti-emetic Mr. Dan. I'm sorry, emetopho about throwing up? Anti-Amedic. The anti-Amedic.

I'm sorry, a metaphobe. I know that's what you are. A metaphobe. As always. Frank, I don't know how anybody is not an emetophobe. Alingon Mitra is a stand-up comedian whose numerous credits include Harvard. I did not write that. The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.

That's what I get brought up as. I was in the crowd there Trevor, no And most importantly Can be seen regularly at the Comedy Cellar And Jason Weissman is a senior Jordan Weissman Come on, man

It's great You know why I did that? You know why I said that? Because you remind me a little bit of Jason Zinnemann from The Times Okay And it was in my head. Honestly, I get called. Everyone messes up Jordan.

For all of high school, my friends called me Gordon. Just like it just became a thing. That became my name. Oh, no. I was literally thinking Jason. Jordan Weissman is a senior editor at Slate where he covers economics, public policy, and politics, and Jew issues from time to time.

From time to Time. Once on a Blue Moon. Which interests me. Okay, so we had a big week in comedy. Big week in comedy, obviously. Oh, and our producer, Periol Aschenbrunnd. Unbelievable. All right.

She's, I kind of like it when you just chime in and they don't even know you're here. Go ahead. She's sort of the Robin Quiverts to your Howard Stern. I'll take that as a compliment. Shane Gillis, who I had never heard of, by the way, until the past couple of days. But apparently he's a Philly or a Pennsylvania-based, I guess he started in Philly, I believe, comedian that I was not familiar with. But he was hired to be a featured player on SNL and then fired shortly thereafter because somebody dug up some podcast clips of him saying, among other things,

chink. Saying it a lot. A lot of chink. Over and over again. Well, what exactly did the podcast... Because I tried to find it and it was already taken offline today. Was it? It was offline? No, it's all over Twitter. On Twitter. Yeah, I mean... That's not good. I saw it a few days ago

and somebody said, like, how did Chinatown get started? Oh, somebody put up a weird building and said, oh, let the chinks live there. I think there's a line at one point where he's like, why do so many fucking chinks live there? Why are there so many fucking ducks in the windows down there? It becomes a whole thing. There's a whole kind of weird aside about Chinese food and MSG. You can't talk about the ducks in the window either? It's not...

I mean, there's not really a joke. That's part of what I think. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. I thought the end part was jokey, though. Which was a bit weird. Where he's like, you'd say,

oh, I don't want spicy food, and they're like, oh, the spicy food. You know, the disconnect. That was a little bit of a bit. That was close to a bit. Did he say, because I didn't hear that, did he say, why do all the chinks live in Chinatown? I missed that part. Or something like that.

I think he said, how did Chinatown get started? Somebody built a weird building and said, let the chinks live here. But the other line about why do all the chinks live in Chinatown, I don't know that he said it or not. I might be misinterpreted. Let me tell you what I think about this, and then you guys can comment on it, what worries me here. And I'm not that familiar with what was actually said.

But in general, I feel like we're living in an age of almost willful misinterpretation of words and intentions. And I'll give you another example that happened this week that's related. So the New York Times tweets out, you may think getting an unwanted penis in your face is harmless, is your idea of harmless fun, but blah, blah, blah, blah. Referring to Kavanaugh. Referring to Kavanaugh.

And the Times got in big trouble for that and had to withdraw the tweet. Now, I understand the tweet is not well written, but they're coming at this as if they really think the people tweeting that were saying that getting an unwanted dick in your face was some harmless fun, where clearly they're making a subtle, it's a subtle kind of sarcasm. Like you might, like if I thought you were a racist, I might say, listen, you might think going out and beating up some black guys is harmless fun. But in other words, there's a subtext to it, which everybody— I do think it's harmless fun.

Nobody thinks that those two reporters from The Times actually meant that this was harmless fun. So similarly here, there is a kind of brand of comedy where they purposely just speak in this kind of outrageous way. And it's like, fuck you, we're going to talk about it the way we want to, and that's part of the end. And you may not find it funny, but a lot of people do find it funny. I don't care whether it's funny or not. But I think it's a real stretch to... This was like with Luis Gomez and all those guys, people of color.

He was on one of those podcasts. I mean, it's a real stretch to take this stuff literally and not understand that in some way this is a genre. Okay, so this is where it comes back to whether or not there was actually a joke. I think part for me, at least, watching it.

No, it's performance art. It doesn't need to be a joke. Just the fact that you're talking that way. To me, it's like, I remember having conversations. Cards on the table, right? Yeah, yeah. I remember when I was in high school. Again, the second time I mentioned high school.

But like high school, like, I definitely had conversations that sounded like that with friends. And like, sometimes we'd have them just like throwing like back beers because, you know, like degenerates, whatever. And sometimes we'd have them in the fucking hallway or whatever. And we thought we were being funny. And I look back on that with a lot of fucking shame. Like, I'm like, oh, this, you know, actually it was just a bunch of kids

luxuriating and saying, you know, a word they're not supposed to and kind of getting off on it and i was watching them do their bit and i was like that's i can't tell how this rises beyond that i can't see anything like just i can't see how this is more than them and and at the same time i went back and i watched some some of his actual comedy, right? I actually watched some of his routines that he gets up on stage and does. And I would say they were really funny. He's really good at actually kind of threading that needle. He's like, I'm from a working class town in Pennsylvania that has Trump country, and I now live in Philadelphia.

And yeah, I kind of have like these, I'm sort of at cross purposes with myself. Like I have a little of these racist instincts, and I try to fight them, but I bet you have them too. Like that's actually kind of the substance of his routine. And it's kind of drawing the crowd in and saying, you're also culpable. And this wasn't that. It was just something. But it was that guy. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it was that guy. You're kind of making my point. So now all of a sudden, I didn't even know what you're saying. All of a sudden you're saying, well, this, I can either just judge him and pretend I don't know anything else about the guy. And say, well, this is a guy just calling somebody chink. Or I can say, no, a reasonable person would say, well, no, this is a guy and his fans certainly know his character, the previous things that he's said. And they know who he is and where he's coming from. And maybe this came out badly. It's a podcast. Maybe he wished he could, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing is. But you are, you're kind of seem to be advocating, we're going to put a bright line between all the other stuff that I've seen of him where he does it well and this time he didn't do it well and we're going to pretend that it's not one person and judge him as one person. Don't interrupt me.

But listen, everybody has, this guy was just spewing shit. This is not why SNL hired him. Like, SNL hired him because he... I'm trying to get to my, that's why I said don't interrupt me, because you're taking me off the point, which is, your point is legit, we can get to that.

What I'm making a point is that we're living at a time when we will willfully cordon off all other information and common sense we might have about an incident, take the words and say, well, no, you said a penis is

a harmless good time. You must have meant you think a penis is a harmless... But clearly you didn't. I don't think that's what... I think the people who get offended by it are saying it's tone-deaf for the penis situation. They're not saying, oh, this person actually believes that. No, I heard actual liberal attacks.

I'm sure there are people on the street. Twitter's a straw man machine. I saw articles about it. I didn't see one person, I did not see one article or tweet saying yeah, it was a bad tweet, but that's not what they meant. Twitter isn't meant for that. Or article. I've not heard

one human being stick up for the Times. I get bogged down in that. Let's talk more about Shane. Even with the Shane thing, even if it is a genre, the question is, do people find it offensive at that point? Who cares?

Well, I think those people. SNL cares. Really? Did they find Chappelle offensive? Do they find Bill Burr offensive? But this is what I was trying to say. I think SNL didn't hire him because of how good he is at podcasting. SNL hired him because they thought he was really a killer stand-up. Well, first of all, I don't know that SNL hires people because they're killer stand-ups.

Because being a killer stand-up has little to do with SNL. Unless you're doing a bunch of characters in a stand-up. Well, first of all, I don't know that SNL hires people because they're killer stand-ups because being a killer stand-up has little to do with SNL unless you're doing a bunch of characters in a stand-up. Okay, whatever. But they thought

he was funny and then they saw this thing and they were like, oh shit, people are reacting poorly to this and we don't want to be culpable.

We don't want to participate in this. It was a business decision. That's what I think. Yeah. I mean, there's a separate issue of like what was SNL thinking and what is, how is, I think that's what I think. Yeah. I mean, there's a separate question of like, what was SNL

thinking and what is, how is Or NBC. There's NBC's reaction like their business decision and there's what the public was thinking, the public's reaction. They had cover not to do it. Andrew Yang came out and said they shouldn't do it. I think Chris Cuomo came out and said not to do it. There were people

and Don Lemon Fredo said not to do it. There were people, and Don Lemon, I think. Fredo said not to do it. In other words, there were people who are not Trump supporters and who have good credentials on being racially sensitive who said, like, you don't fire somebody for that. I want to hear, you were making a point, though, that I wanted to hear you get to the end to. If the people are getting offended,

we can't be callous and just say, okay, well, that's your fault. We have to be. Why? Because otherwise, we become hypocrites overnight. We're all hypocrites. No.

The way to not be a hypocrite is say, they were jokes. Say whatever you want. Does everybody remember that Eddie Murphy's first track on his album was called Faggots I mean I mean that was

a different era it's hard to impose that but Eddie Murphy's gonna be back on stand up is anybody yeah are they gonna unearth that

and be like Eddie Murphy can't perform if in 2018 he was going around yelling that it would be an issue can you give me an objective standard

by which you can tell me who should get fired and who shouldn't? That's the whole point. This comes back to the business part of it. No, I'm talking about fairness. I'm saying like... Well, I don't think they should have hired him in the first place if they thought... Honestly, they did him a disservice by not actually

vetting him because at this point, you know everyone who gets hired onto that show, any major public position, is going to get put through the fucking ringer. And you have to make a judgment about whether or not your audience and people that you've been courting, and SNL's pretty resistancy these days, or has been, whether or not they're going to actually survive that process. You can't listen to every podcast and watch every video. But if his comedy is as what you're describing, they might have gotten an inkling that this was a possibility. I'm surprised they hired him because he doesn't see... I don't know much about the guy.

I know he auditioned here, Noam, actually. I actually found him offensive. SNL's hires are generally not that kind of rat-like kind of a guy. I mean, he doesn't fit the profile of the average SNL hire as far as I can see. He was their diversity hire. They wanted a Republican. Maybe they wanted... Or they wanted a conservative.

I'm sorry. You know what? I have to really push back against you guys. You have Sarah Zhang. Hold on, hold on. We didn't finish. Hold on. This is in that point.

I don't think we ever got to the end of your point. No, this is your point. And you were yelling at me for interrupting. You have Sarah Jung, and the editorial board of the New York Times, tweeting out harsher jokes,

racial jokes than that about, I don't enjoy anything as much as seeing a white guy suffering and all kinds of stuff. And this was quite offensive to a lot of people.

And she's on the editorial, not a comedian, and then she's on the editorial board of the New York Times. And I'm telling you that this is, to pick and choose offensive here, is, it disgusts me. Either somebody lay out some objective standard and say, okay, well, here are the rules, and you knew the rules when you said it, so that's it.

Or, you know what, just shut up and let people say what they want. Say what they want about Jews. I don't care. But what about as a business decision, Noam? Do you think as a purely business decision, and you're a businessman who has to make these sorts of decisions, it was the right move on SNL's part? No, I don't.

Now, why not? What should they have done? I think they should have said these were jokes. I think that, listen, it's just like the Rotten Tomatoes thing that everybody's seen about Chappelle's special. It gets like 27% critics rating and 99% audience ratings. People are, I mean, I'm spitting it out. People are not Twitter. I mean, listen, I don't know what actually NBC

would have been up against if they had fought for him but it would have blown over there are also the other people on SNL, right? how are the other comics going to feel? like they hired their first ever Asian American comic ever, essentially which is also insane

can we talk about that for a second? we may or may not get to that I bet you the SNL comedians were not bad. By the way, I don't know. Here's a picture, Noam, of our man, Mr. Shane Gillis. He looks, in this picture, hold on a second now, he looks slightly Asian. Now, I've never seen the man in person, but if you look at this

picture, he looks like a cross-dressing... He's just squinting. He's not just squinting. He has Asiatic features. I suspect if he did a 23andMe, he might be in for a surprise. Now, what if that comes back and he turns out to be 36% Asian?

Does that change any? I doubt that he's 37% Asian. But he might have some. There could be some Asiatic percentage. If he had said on the podcast, oh, man, it's kind of sick how much joy I get out of being cruel to old Chinese people. Are Chinese people genetically disposed to burn faster than the sun thus logically being only fit to live underground

like groveling goblins? Now this is what I changed it from white to Chinese. This is what Sarah Jung said in the Times. Now the Times didn't seem to think

it was a necessary business decision but the thing is this is more outrageous than what this guy did because she's not kidding here. Okay but there also isn't like a history of oppression. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

It's like... There's a history of oppression of Chinese people? Yeah. Really? Where is that? At the railroads. I mean, in the 1800s? Yeah.

Okay. There's all sorts of... So those are the rules. So our objective standards are going to be you can say what you want about white people. You can get away with some things about Jews. I'm not condoning that. And Chinese people because of the – Jews have a history of oppression, don't they? Jews, it's complicated.

I don't know. They seem to be doing fine. Really? Are Chinese people oppressed today? I mean, you would have to ask them. They're the highest earning people in the country. Ronnie Chang wouldn't come on the show. They're so oppressed.

Hold on. They're so oppressed that we have to limit them to 20% at universities. Here we go. And they're so oppressed that we're getting rid of gifted programs in New York City schools because we're trying. How many CEOs of American companies, like percentage-wise, are Asian? I don't know. I mean, you're throwing out numbers.

No, I'm throwing out numbers. I'm saying there is, they call it the bamboo ceiling, right? Where Asians aren't hired into the corporate position. So you're really saying that... I'm saying that there is oppression. So this podcast guy

is supposed to know that, well, I heard Sarah Jung say this kind of stuff, but I can't say that stuff because, you know, how many CEOs... This is crazy talk. No, no.

I'm not saying the rules aren't slightly complicated, but there are rules. What would a lingon as a Des-American, is that the word, Des? No, not at all. Desi? Yeah, Desi, I guess, like Indian-American. Desi, but that encompasses Bangladesh and Pakistan. Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal.

Now, you guys don't get along over there. No, no. But over here, you're all Desis. So you're upset with Chappelle's show? No, no, no. Look, I don't even... Should Netflix fire him? I don't even think he should have been fired.

No, should Netflix stop showing Chappelle's show? No, no. I think... Why not? He said the same... He said worse. Oh, I'm not saying Chappelle. I'm saying the guy who said Chink.

I want to tell you... I want you to give me a standard why you think NBC should fire this guy, but... He didn't say anything. I just said he should get fired. You don't think he should get fired? No, no, no. He doesn't like it, but he doesn't think he should get fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I haven't heard you defending it. I've only heard you saying why what he did was wrong. You don't have to defend the things that he's saying for him to... Like, I think you should have a conversation. But when you fire somebody, you don't have a conversation. No, I said it shouldn't matter what he says. And you disagreed. Yeah, no, I do think people find it

offensive, and you need to have a conversation with the people who find it offensive. If they tell you, hey, look, I'm not Asian, so I can't tell you about the history of oppression, right? But there are people who are knowledgeable about that, who he could have a conversation with, he could learn from, and if he finds it, oh, yeah. Well, he

apologized. Oh, he didn't really. He was like, if you find it offensive, fine. But he didn't have the conversation with the people who found it offensive, right? How is he going to have a conversation with the people? You don't think there are people who You can have one or two people, but there's probably thousands of people who are offensive. There are multiple people who

should go on a podcast and talk about it. Go on a podcast with people who are knowledgeable about the oppression of Asians in America. Dude, I would support that. Learn about why chink might be offensive to them. He knows why chink is offensive. That's why he was using it. Otherwise, he wouldn't use it so cavalierly. No, I think that's exactly why he was using it, wasn't it?

I mean, he was trying to be a jerk. Like, that was the whole point. But he wouldn't use the N-word, right? I mean, I don't know. I think it's safe point. But he wouldn't use the N-word, right? I mean, I don't know. I think it's safe to assume that he wouldn't use the N-word. I would actually veer in the other direction. Well, no, he wouldn't. Asian Americans are considered safe to gently rib, if you will,

precisely because, first of all, they're not as likely to respond with an uppercut to the jaw. Christ, really? Well, I'm just saying, I mean, you know, you're more physically intimidated by black people generally, aren't you? That's not why, Dan. That is out-fucking-magic.

We should cancel this fucking show. This is just a waste of time. Why are you getting so agitated? Because the N-word has a specific... I was getting to that, but you didn't let me finish. Secondly, the history of oppression in the United States. Asians are a soft target. So you're going to deny that?

You're going to deny that they're a softer target? He won't use the N-word. But in addition to that, the history of oppression is vastly different and the word has vastly different subtext. The reason he won't use the N-word has nothing to do with the Chinese. It has to do with everything about the N-word.

That's my point. He won't use the N-word because... I'm contrasting the N-word with the C-word if we don't want to use that. And by the way, comedians used to use the N word. Chris Rock, on Earth,

just a few years ago, used it with Louis on air and laughing about it. So, there's no standard here. They make it up as they go along and the worst part about it is it's retroactive,

but everybody keeps talking, well, I guess, I mean, I feel like you're, with all due respect, I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth

in a sense that, yeah, of course, I'm for him having a conversation with people who are offended. I always want to have a conversation with people who I might offend. But that's not really the issue on the table. The issue on the table is, can we identify some standard by which NBC was compelled to fire this guy, but Netflix is not compelled to not run Dave Chappelle's special or Bill Burr's special or the New York Times is not compelled to chase in Sarah Jung because if there is no standard that somebody could spell out for me, then this is just all very mob rule.

And we are buckling to mob rule. And that's why I say we should let them say whatever they want because mob rule is the enemy of all of us. He can say it, but there are consequences to him saying it. There shouldn't be. If it's your audience and doesn't want to hear it, right? It doesn't want to be entertained by that comedian. What's the other ratings go?

I bet you the ratings would have gone up. I don't think that this guy got fired because suddenly SNL didn't think he was funny or NBC didn't think he was funny. That's not why he got fired. They thought he was a liability. Right. But that's shitty though. I don't like

what he said and I don't agree with what he said but I think that it's shitty that all of a sudden they were like, ooh, this guy said these things. It's like, yeah, that's who he is. Well, they're not being honest. In other words, they sudden they were like, ooh, this guy said these things. It's like, yeah, that's who he is. Well, they're not being honest. In other words, they could have just said, look, we don't care what he said.

We say it all the time, but we can't have him on our show. So should MSNBC be required to fire Al Sharpton at this point? Again, I don't think they should be fired. I think they should have conversations with the people who are getting offended. So do we all agree that this guy got treated badly then by being fired? I think that hiring him in the first place and then firing him the way they did, I mean, the whole process was shitty. I don't know if anyone could defend not doing any due diligence,

finding something 10 minutes later in his background and be like, actually, never mind. Yeah, that is super shitty. Well, again, it's hard to listen to every podcast he ever did. Yeah, but the one journalist did. The one found it pretty quickly. Yeah, it's not that hard every podcast, listen to every podcast he ever did. Yeah, but the one journalist did. The one found it pretty quickly. Yeah, it's not that hard. Someone found it.

It wasn't a journalist. It was somebody that was lying in wait, probably. I agree with you. I was told that somebody who's a Philly comic told me, I don't know if this is true, that they were lying in wait for this guy. They didn't like him. For years, they didn't like him. He's only been doing comedy for like five years total, I think.

For however long they didn't like him, and they were keeping track of shit that he was saying, and they sprung as soon as this was announced. Well, isn't that even worse? No, that's just a guy that didn't like him. Another comic, I'm told, revealed this, and then the journalist ran with it. But in other words, it wasn't as

though it's not easy to simply vet somebody by listening to every single thing they've ever done. Can I say something to you? First of all, NBC has a bit of resources. And it seems perfectly logical that before they hired somebody, they would have three or four people say, Listen, go on the Internet. You have three days. Listen to everything you can about this guy.

We want to make sure we don't do this happening over and over. And they didn't. That's true. Maybe they could have done that. But having said that. Especially because they knew his act kind of went in that direction. Yeah. I just think that.

Here's the thing. I would like to see him get a chance to do it. I'd like to know what the fuck he was thinking when he was on that podcast. He was just being an idiot. Yeah. Maybe he was just being an idiot. I don't think this guy needs to be shunned for the rest of his life. Yeah.

People make fucking mistakes. He doesn't get to be on SNL because of it. I hope he doesn't go and do the kind of right-wing grievance thing. I think he seems like he's actually a talented guy who really fucked up. He might get a chance to make amends by talking about things like...

Maybe Norman... Arguably... I think you guys... Maybe I'm not making myself. No, as always, you make your point very clear. As always. But the point is. You want him to be able to say whatever. When Mel Gibson said all those crazy things about Jews.

Yeah. He did say a lot of crazy things about Jews. I never thought back then that they should stop letting him make movies. I'm like, this is... I never felt that way. So I just want to say that just to show you where I've always been about this. I'm not picking and choosing. Sure, but that's your opinion.

Yeah, it's my opinion. I'm not saying no. So you don't think... He doesn't care about the Chinese, but if it was Jews, it would be a different story. I've always been this way. But that was before this got out of hand. What I'm saying is that I think that we all ought to be scared and fighting against the idea that there is no standard to be found in what's transpiring here, which means that everybody who might say the wrong thing has no way of gauging

what the right thing, what the wrong thing is, and whether it's... And this is something that all of us need to fight against because it's killing society. I don't think that's... I think if you're a white guy and you're making fun... and you're using a racial slur kind of cavalierly, then yeah, you're going to get in trouble. That's pretty obvious at this point. Like, that's not a...

That's not a hard standard to figure out. So the standard is now that anybody can make racial slurs except white people? then yeah, you're going to get in trouble. That's pretty obvious at this point. That's not a hard standard to figure out. So the standard is now that anybody can make racial slurs except white people? No, it's white people. No, no, no, no, no. I did not say that. I'm asking. We can dive into this, but I think as one basic rule to live by,

if you're a white guy or a Jewish guy, is don't fling around racial slurs. What if you're using a word like that? George Carlin did. Yeah, back't fling around racial slurs about, you know. What if you're using a word like that? I mean, George Carlin did. Yeah, back in the day. Standards evolve. And if you're going to use it, you've got to be pretty aware when you're doing it. It didn't seem like that was the case here.

Right, but as I said, it didn't seem like that. But then apparently there's a broader character of this guy who I have no idea, and in that broader character, it does make sense. Well, what were your impressions when you saw, did you see his audition here? No. Oh, you didn't see it. I have no idea who the guy is, but I know comedians, we know them, who, first of all, it's tempting sometimes to be outrageous. And in a podcast, you let your guard down. And I know comedians who have said worse. We all know that.

But that's not, what does that mean? Meaning that... It just means you know comedians who have said worse. Yeah, it means, and I don't, yes. It means they're not working on SNL either. That's why I say you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. So you do think he should be fired. I don't think he should be fired.

I think you should have a conversation with the people who are offended. But he says clearly no, but then he says worse. Can I summarize Lingon's sentiment, if I may? You're not bothered by the fact that he be fired. I think you should have a conversation with people But he says clearly no, but then he says worse. Can I summarize Lingon's sentiment, if I may, and correct me if I'm wrong? You're not bothered by the fact that he's fired.

He doesn't think he should be fired. I don't want him to be fired. I am bothered by that. You're bothered, but why are you bothered by it? Because I don't think that's the right path

to go down. Those people who are getting offended aren't airing their grievances to him, and he's not able to explain to them what he was thinking.

You've got to have the conversation. You have the conversation. If you land on different positions, then you can be like, all right, given that you still feel this way and that the majority are still very offended by it, we can make a decision to fire you. But there's no explanations.

He said he's running to his spot. He's sorry he can't do it. He was just being a jerk. It was stupid. Is that what he said? No, that's what I his spot. He's sorry he can't do it. He was just being a jerk. Like, it was stupid. Is that what he said? No, that's what I'm saying. Like, it was stupid. But you're not an Asian American.

Like, if you're Asian and you're just like... How do you know I'm not Asian? You're right, you're right, you're right. We can show a photo where you're squinting. Noam, where are you headed? Noam is leaving the table. All right. I'm not sure why

I guess he's going to ask Mark Norman to join us By the way I have heard it said That you know that That he might be better off in his career this way Because now everybody knows who he is Had he been on SNL It's possible he would have just gotten lost in the sauce And done one season

I want you guys to know though I do have black friends It's nice have black friends. It's nice having black friends when the rest of your friends are just fucking goofy white guys. It's nice. You get some outside perspective, some advice. You just gotta be careful of the advice you take from your black friends when it comes to, like, sex. When you look like Uncle Buck, it doesn't... translate. Like, this is the advice my friend gave me when I went on a date with this chick.

He was like, hey, O'Shane, you don't want to go too deep in the pussy. She's always going to want the dick. I was like, you're worried about depth? Like, depth? I didn't even know they had depth. I'm just happy to be there. You're worried about, like, depth is an issue? He was like, know they had depth. I'm just happy to be there. You're worried about, like, depth is an issue?

He's like, you don't want to give her the whole dick. I'm like, that's all I have. What are you talking about? I've never been, like, halfway in and been like, ooh, ooh, you got to earn the rest of this dick. This is Mark Norman. We'll save that point for later. Regular here at the Comedy Cellar.

Recently identified by Jerry Seinfeld as one of the, maybe his favorite comic in the country, I think is what he said. Had lunch with him yesterday. So go ahead. What do you think about this guy being fired in SNL? I get it. I think it's, I hate when people say there's no such thing as cancel culture. Well, what the hell is this?

Secondly. Does anybody say that? People say it all day long on Twitter. Oh, okay. And then they're saying, I just, look, somebody had a great analogy about, it's like if I punch you in the face,

that's illegal and a crime or whatever. But if we're in the octagon, then it's normal. And I feel like even though it wasn't funny, he was attempting to be funny. He was on a podcast. That's the octagon. You see what I'm saying?

Just because he said a bad word. Look, I come down on the side of, you know, I can't tell what was going on in his heart and in his mind. I don't know the man, but people that do know the man tell me his actions are not racist. No. I know the guy. You know. He's a nice guy and a funny guy. So why does he talk that way?

He was attempting humor. You got to fill air. Well, he also said, by the way, at least, and maybe he said other things over the years. He said, how was Chinatown created? Somebody built a crazy building and said, let the chinks live there. In other words, he was quoting a character. He was quoting a... The word got used more than once.

It wasn't in their... It wasn't just the one. I only heard that. It's a funny word and it raises the heart rate. It's fun. It's fun to say horrible things. I said before you came

that it's tempting. But Dan just made a really good point. I didn't know that. If he's speaking through the... He's describing a racist mentality. Yes. And if that's the case, then I think he definitely should get a pass.

I guess we've got to watch the video. Mark, what if he had said the N-word? Did he say anything else, Mark? Did you see the podcast video? Yeah, I saw it. And what else did he say besides what we just said about China? He said Jew chink. Andrew Yang's a Jew chink, which is hilarious.

See? And then he said something about something that's gayer than ISIS. That's like poetry. That's fucking hilarious. A Jew chink. And by the way, even the N-word, John McWhorter, who's a Columbia professor, just wrote a long column saying that he thinks it's ridiculous that nobody's allowed to say the N-word. In every song. Even if you're not

using it with any intention or wielding it. I agree with that. What I'm saying is people were offended by it, and so you talk to them and find out why they're offended. Who's not offended in today's... I get emails for you motherfuckers all the time by people who are

offended. That's normal. I'm serious. I'm NBC here. I get fucking emails from customers. You don't even know the kind of ridiculous things they're offended by. Good. I don't take action against you, and I don't even tell you to clean up your act. Thank you.

Say what you want. Not against Hamilton, though. If you receive a critical mass... Yes, Hamilton, somebody got offended by his hot air balloon routine one time. This is true. So help me God. If you do receive a critical mass, you do change your policies, right? Like when Louis was here, you did change the way...

That's a different case. That's a different case. Because that was a sexual thing. That was a sexual assault quote. I already said it. I don't know what you're referring to. I fucking put my head on the guillotine during that Louis thing

and I risked everything to not... People can leave and they don't have to pay. That wasn't a rule before. Actually, it was always the policy, but it was never stated. I did that. Why?

Why did you do that? I did that. Why? But that changed. Why did you do that? I did that because if people were offended, I wanted them to know, you don't have to write us and ask for your money back in the manual. I'll let you know up front. If you're offended, we only want money from customers who are happy here. So just go. Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right. What I didn't do, what I didn't fucking do, is tell him

that he couldn't perform. That's the point. And people think being offended now you get something for it. Okay, you're offended. That's it. Go on with your day. We all get offended. Suck it up. Did Mark, after all this came about, did you think back to the things you've said and done on podcasts and said to yourself, I'm terrified.

Is there something in there that might be used? I got a million chinks. I got a million retards. I got a million words. I got a million of them. I'm trying to be funny. I have no hate in my heart. And that's the other thing. Where is the...

Well, clearly, you know, I hate the Jews. But who doesn't? More than they deserve. That's the key. But here's my point. Let me just get this out without interruption. Please. Keith, sit down.

You're freaking me out. That N-word shit. We're all at you if it helps. All right. All right. Here's the thing. He's ableist too, Keith. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. If I see a cane, I kick it. Here's the thing. The guy is a douche, whatever, fat-faced honky from Pennsylvania. He sat down. He's trying to be funny. Somebody unearthed this thing, and now he's a public racist. We don't even know the guy. We don't even ask

the guy. We don't even check in with the guy. We don't even research about anything good he's done or who he is as a person or what's in his heart. He could be married to a chink for all we know. He could be. He could be married to a... He could be married to a slope. Let's examine know. He could be. He could be married to a buck. He could be married to a slope. Who knows? Let's examine the joke I just told.

No, no, no. Would that joke... Now, that joke could certainly have offended somebody. That's Chappelle's joke, right? No, but I use the word. He is. Now, obviously, I'm alluding to the situation. Of course.

Obviously, I'm not using the word. Of course. I'm making a joke about the word being used. Well, that's out. That doesn't matter anymore. That's right, but it doesn't matter. Let me give the counterpoint for, like, try to... Again, I'm not Asian, but, like,

if you're hearing someone use that word over and over again in a routine, and you are Asian, or you're someone who's, like, sensitive to their point of view, you're wondering, is that person really trying to make a joke? Are they trying to make light of it? Or are they just kind of having fun using something that makes me feel demeaned?

And that's the question in the back of your mind the entire time. And that's what the audience... And so, there's, again, a lot of people... I mean, that's what I think you need to be sensitive to to a degree. I don't think this guy deserves the death penalty for his career. I think that the whole thing is like sad

that SNL fucked up this way that they hired a guy and then threw him to, you know. They should penalize as well. He shouldn't get a death penalty for his career. They should have never allowed

him to have been born. Right, right. Because they took it away. They should have researched it and never let him have it to begin with. I think he would have had it. Like figure out why.

Like, yeah. Like be aware. Right. Say, hey, we looked at your past. You said some fucked up stuff. Do you want to tell us what was going on here? Give him an opportunity, like knowing that this is going to happen. We know what he would say.

He'd say basically what Mark said. I was joking around. I'm on a podcast. It comes out awkward sometimes. I mean, what could he say? Keith is standing there. Keith Robinson wants to advise you to speak into this. Keith represents both the challenged and the black community.

You're damn right. And the gay community. I blew it. No, I'm saying that people are blaming SNL for that. And what I don't like is that everybody's going after SNL because they made a decision. So there's comics that work for SNL. Heath is auditioning for the spot that got taken away. Exactly.

No, but stop being ages. So I'm just saying it's like the corporation, corporately, does SNL have something to do with all the people going after them corporate-wise? So they didn't just fire him because of the fact that there's a lot of things that was involved with that, with the firing of him. Because the commercials or whatever, whatever corporations was going after SNL, that had to hurt too.

That had to have something to do with their decision also. We respect our elders, so we're going to let you finish, Keith. I'm just making a damn good point. You don't have to respect it. It's a damn good point. I don't understand the point. You're saying it was just business? Yes.

They had to look at it. But you agree with me, and you agree with the following. No, they look at it, and they divine what they think the consequences will be. But I think you and I both agree that they get this wrong again and again and again. They respond in a panic to Twitter, and they don't trust the American people enough.

And we talked about this before you came. The Chappelle thing is a perfect example. The country loves Chappelle's special. 99% on Rotten Tomatoes. But Chappelle didn't say chinks. The point being is that Michael Jackson's victims are full of shit, and they should be happy that loves Chappelle's special. 99% on Rotten Tomatoes. But Chappelle didn't say chinks. He could have. The point being is that Michael Jackson's victims

are full of shit and they should be happy that they get molested. They should be happy they've been fucked by Michael Jackson. That's at least as offensive. To the Chinese eyes. Well,

Noam's point, Keith, is that what Twitter says and what people think are two different things. It wasn't just Twitter. Yeah. Y'all keep thinking it's all Twitter because 30,000 people.

No, there were, like when Todd Lynn, I don't know if you remember. Of course we remember Todd Lynn. He said tsunami, said something about a tsunami, and he lost his job. Everybody lost their job on the radio. Everybody. Gilbert Gottfried, Gilbert Gottfried. Everybody. Okay, so it's not just Twitter.

Who is it? What did I just say? The public's always been able to get out. No, I'm saying, are they being inundated with emails? What's going on? No, when somebody's face, they think they're going to lose money. Keith, can I tell you that? I think you're full of shit on this one.

I'm not full of shit. Can I tell you why? Can I tell you why you were furious when the Oscars didn't want to have Kevin Hart? Well, that's a friend of mine. Wait, but Keith, do you? I mean, what the fuck is coming out of your mouth here? No, I'm saying, I'm showing. You're saying what? Kevin Hart said, I'm going to fag it, I'm going to bash him all over his head.

And you said, that's fucked up that the Oscars fired him. And now you're defending SNL. You know, go back and figure out a point and come back. That's funny that you mention that, but I'm saying he still lost a job. But you were furious about it. I wasn't furious about it. Oh, come on, Keith. Wait, Keith, do you think that SNL made the right business decision?

For themselves. Do you think had they kept Shane Gillis, it would have been very bad for their ratings and for their brand? I think it would have helped. They thought that. But do you think that's valid, though, in your opinion? Noam says it's not valid. I don't know. I don't know.

I think As would have gotten paid. I doubt it. How would he know what Lorne Michaels is doing? No, no. They wanted to hire him because he's different. The whole show is woke central. It's is on. No, no. I talked to Che. They wanted to hire him because he's different. The whole show is woke central. It's very diverse. And he's the first kind of right-leaning guy on there.

And they thought, hey, this is a new voice. This whole show is about counterculture. My guess is they won't do that again. Maybe. That's the problem is they've cultivated this one very particular audience for two years now. And now they want to bring on this other guy who that audience doesn't want to hear. I mean, that's a problem for them. He is funny.

This is a question. He is funny. What has Alec Baldwin done, by the way? Don't worry about Alec Baldwin. He's not a comic. I'm asking this. Does the comic have any responsibility? No.

No? You know what? I know it sounds crazy what I'm saying. I'm at the point now where I think the slippery slope is so quickly. Oh, don't say slope. Why can't I say slope? Say age and slope. Oh, oh.

You're canceled now. Who's going to win the erection in 2020, Keith? Anyway, I'm at the point now where the slippery slope and the hypocrisy comes so fast and fierce that I think the only way, I think I was right years ago. I said, you know what? Who gives a shit what Mel Gibson thinks about Jews? If it's a good movie, I'll see it. And if it's not a good movie, I won't. Because this is all too arbitrary.

And to go back to the same cases, Kevin Hart, we support. Chappelle, we support. This dude we were going to throw under the bus. The white guy. Sarah Jung, we support. Roseanne Barr, she's done. Yes. Lisa Lampanelli, well, that's okay.

George Carlin, Ted Young, that was a different guy. This is all bullshit. We're making it up as we go along. Yes, and it's morally superior jerking off bullshit. It's just some guy wanting to pat himself on the back mostly. This guy doesn't give a shit about Asians. It's also kind of the market speaking, though, right? It's like, well, you'll see the show you want.

We don't really know what the market is. I mean, no one is right. The public. Norton won. Jim Norton. Did you guys hear about Shane getting fired from SNL? Listen, we went through this with a Louis thing. Yeah.

And we were very worried about the market. It really, we had headlines. After a headline, headlines just blasting us. We were sure we were going to take a big hit. Oh, I knew better than that. And if we had buckled, I'd be making the same mark. Oh, the marketplace decided, you know, they were protesting

or this or that. But I decided, let's wait this out. Let's actually see. Because I would have buckled if I wasn't ready to go broke. I agree that there's a lot of fake outrage,

but when Asians are saying we're offended when somebody calls us ching. I think it's real outrage. Oh. But I don't think that means they would stop watching. I was outraged by what Mel Gibson said. I still got to see Lethal Weapon.

I can handle it. You're not everyone, though. I don't know that SNL would have been any different. But then you're just saying as long as the market is okay with it, what matters? I'm saying, you know what?

I think social norms matter more than anything else. And I think we used to have a social norm which was more along the lines of people could say whatever the fuck they want. Geraldo could have David Duke on his show. Dick Cavett would have Lester Maddox on his show. Jesse Jackson could say. He could meet you a woman. Al Sharpton said whatever the fuck he wanted and he got criticized for it. But he was still up there on every TV show.

Imus got fired for saying Nappy hit a hoe. He shouldn't have gotten fired for saying that. You didn't think he should have gotten fired for that. No, I didn't think he should have. That's right. Stop acting like this is something new. No, and do you think— This is nothing new.

Well, you know, it's new with the comedians. What about— The comedians attacking comedians is new. Do you think SNL has now opened themselves up? Basically, what they've said is, our hiring decision is now going to be made by you, dear public. And next time we hire somebody, we're going to encourage you to tell us what we should be doing.

In other words, if they said, fuck you, we don't care what you have to say, then maybe the next time they hired somebody, there wouldn't be outrage because the public would know we're not going to be able to influence SNL's decision. They did defend Che when they hired Che. Che had some tweets that people were

quote-unquote upset about, but they were fine with that. And Eddie Murphy said fag 800 times. He was the star of the show for 10 months or so. Who knows how much Keith has said it.

But by the way, the nappy-headed whole thing was a little bit different, I would say, only because he was actually speaking about a real person, which is not an arbitrary line. He wasn't making a general joke.

He was talking about the WNBA basketball players. It was a real insult at a real person. I still wouldn't have fired him. Can I get back to the social norm thing? I want to... This is for your standard. I'm anti. I'm like the

comedy anti-matter here. But like the... Okay, so your standard is you think there should be a social norm where we just live and let live, anyone says. I think that people who are, you know, the outrage mob,

whatever you want to call them, the people who, you know, who spend a lot of time thinking about this are also worried about social norms especially when it comes to comedians because they see them as, again, they are the ones normalizing this language. They think, like, let's say, you when it comes to comedians, because they see them as, again, they are the ones normalizing this language.

They think, like, let's say, you know, Jew to Jew, right? How did you know I was Jewish? How on earth could I possibly? Like, if there's a white nationalist comic who got really popular, right, like on the Richard Spencer circuit, and they're just saying kike all the time, and they normalize saying kike, and other people see him saying kike all the time. And they normalize saying kike.

And other people see him saying kike, and they think, I'm just saying kike over and over again. This will get clipped now somewhere. But anyway, like, kike, kike, kike, kike. Just throw that in there. And other people see it, and they're like, oh, that's normalized. And that becomes part of the language, and that becomes part of acceptable behavior.

And that's what you're fighting back against, because comedians have that power. They deter, oh, well, that's they deter oh well that's funny you can say it goes from a comedian can say it to anyone can say it because that's what that's what funny is. Let me ask you a question. He asked me let me answer. He said Judah Jew not Judah. I'm Jewish. I did my 23 and me. I'm Jewish. No, the only thing I don't like... What town in the Ukraine? Is what?

24 and me. Is comics going after other comics? Square people go and do what they do. But comics, when you're square, you're square. Look, I believe in comics. Comics are supposed to say what they... Can I answer the direct question? Well, he said comics shouldn't go after other comics.

Jordan asked me a direct question. I have a point about that. Well, I guess, never mind. No, he said comics shouldn't go after other comics. Jordan asked me a direct question. I have a point about that. Well, I guess, never mind. No, he's right. Let's just let the question hang there without an answer and go on to something else. Let's get the, I want to hear the answer. Go ahead, no, I'm sorry. Makes no sense.

The answer is, there are, you know, you can always, for instance, I'm a very, very, very, very strong free speech guy. But yeah, if you ask me, so you think they should show ISIS bomb making videos on YouTube? No, you know, there are these tough cases. If you have some comedian out there, like, you know, just calling people and we're laughing at how dumb black people are and kikes and how cheap. At some point, I'll be like, yeah. Well, when you say laughing at how dumb black people are, just to clarify, you're not saying black people are dumb. Come on, Dan. I just had to clarify because...

Really, you had to clarify? But my thing is, don't listen to his podcast. He didn't put it out there to be heard by everybody. You're not just worrying about your listening. You're also listening. It's like, well, what does he do? He gets popular. What does that do to the culture?

What does that do? What ideas does he make acceptable to everyone else? That's sort of, that's how... But people are going to do what they're going to do, don't you think? I don't think they're going to go, hey, look at this fat idiot. I'm going to be like him. You know? I don't think, Jordan, I don't think in good faith you could tell me that you think what this guy

did, I got fired from SNL, is an example of what, of the hypothetical you just gave me, which is basically describing overt, hateful racism being normalized. And by the way, I'm at the point now where I say, you know what? I don't give a shit.

Like, they can go on. I'm telling you, I really don't care what people say or joke about. I don't care. I don't either. It's like the Michael Jackson documentary. To me, that's way weirder. Everybody in America watched that fucking thing about kids getting fucked and assholes spreading.

I couldn't watch it. But, like, I do a pedophilia joke, and I'm an asshole. We all do. You just watched a fucking documentary. I can't watch that. To me, that's way weirder. We watched Ted Bundy up the ass all day long. Jim Norton had a great point about it's all.

The biggest movie is now about a clown killing children. That's the biggest movie in America. And then jokes are the problem? I don't get it. Jokes. It's a thing in a microphone. The point is that he wasn't perceived to have been joking by some. I know, but we have to make them realize.

This puck is in the comedy section on iTunes. That should be noted. That's all I'm saying. But even in a comedy podcast, one could theoretically be a racist. Sure, but he's allowed to be a racist. Yeah, but and so this is the. Well, if you see it, look, if I believe that he felt in his heart hatred toward Chinese people, then I would be more on board. Sure.

With SNL's decision. I agree. I don't feel that. I certainly don't feel there's evidence to suggest that. But are there things, Mark, that you would never say even in the context of comedy? Yes, of course.

I guess probably, yeah. But why? Just for scared of getting beat up and hated. Not because, I was about to say, not because he doesn't want to fuck up his audience.

But it's because of a sense of like, oh, it's immoral. No. Not comedy immoral. What? I mean, Louis C.K. had the joke about 9-11 jerking off right after. That's a great joke.

But he did that when he was a genius. That's more about him. It was okay for him to do that then because he was the genius then. Yeah, he's still a genius. No, but I'm saying like in the public. I get it. I get it. Yeah.

So this is the other. I'm not saying Gillis did this. I don't want to say this is what he was attempting. But just like hypothetically. Yes. Yes. Like really hateful motherfuckers use comedy all the time as a cover right like if you talk about like like guy like actual white nationalists on 8chan or whatever who are now going you know

shooting up shuls or whatever like all that starts with as a joke if you read how they operate and then the lighter version of that is okay when is it so this is again the thing that a lot of people are i hope there's a hard and fast rule. A lot of people, when they see these routines, they're doing the math, and they're like, is this a joke, or is it cover for him just saying something sort of hateful? It is possible to be a comedian and hateful at the same time. Yes.

And so that can be pulled that off. I'm sorry. Let one of these people complaining about this also complain about the New York Times hiring Sarah Jung or the millions of other incidents that got on. And then I'll say, you know what? At least they're consistent. But so long as they're cherry picking, whatever it is, they're going to come at this guy, not at Chappelle. They'll come at Louis after the sexual allegations.

Everybody's going after Chappelle. They all go fuck themselves. They're all full of shit. I don't think so. I think they just have a more nuanced view of it. No, because they're not. No. You're like, oh, if somebody says one thing hateful, somebody else says something else hateful, then they're both equal, right?

And therefore, both should get fired or none should get fired. If you have two examples of this. A white person saying something hateful towards an Asian versus an Asian person saying something hateful towards a white person. Because of the history, there's some categorical difference there. It's the punching up, punching down rule, right? That's the rough rule. I think when Asians is punching up, they're killing it. They're number one in everything.

They're better than white people. I'm sorry. That's a racist notion. Wait, what racist is better than white people? Hold on. Yes! There is something bothersome to me, and it's happening a lot now, to say that a woman on the editorial board of the New York Times

is punching down when she speaks abusively of old white men. At some point, you know what, maybe in general, I get your point, but you are one of a handful of elites in the world right now, lady, and you're punching down at some guy who probably, you know, But you are one of a handful of elites in the world right now, lady. And you're punching down at some guy who probably, you know, barely has two pennies. So you know what? Stop. I think that it's time now to start saying we need to be better than that, looking for excuses to forgive everybody of certain DNA,

to basically indulge whatever jokes, whatever hate, whatever they want to come out of their mouth because that was not Martin Luther King's dream. The goal was supposed to be everybody gets treated the same. Right. And you know what? We live in a world now where you can say anything you want so long as you can describe it as punching up. Even if it's hateful,

even if it's racist, even if it's foul as can be. Yeah. And I was punching up, I can say whatever the fuck I want. That's bullshit. If you're offended by the idea of racial hate, then it shouldn't matter

whether you're punching up or punching down. Because if you're enjoying the racial hate, but I can do it because I'm punching up, but boy, this feels good, that's fucking hypocrisy. That is bullshit. I grew up in a black neighborhood, and I got made fun of a lot, and it fucking hurt. But I wasn't like, well, I'm white.

It still hurts. You know, it's still race on race. Yeah, I agree with that. So you should have the conversation with Sarah about why you got offended by her tweets, rather than her getting fired in the same way the agents— I don't want her fired. I never wanted her fired. But you did get offended by it.

You know what? It sounds like you're quite upset about it. I know. But he didn't do anything about it. But you did get offended by it. You know what? It sounds like you're quite upset about it. But he didn't do anything about it. He didn't beat her fire. I'm not offended by the tweet. I'm offended by the fact that the New York Times, which makes a living out of calling people out for racism, was ready to look the other way because

she was punching, or they said she was counter-trolling. I don't think anybody should be able to say anything just because you're punching up. That doesn't give you a carte blanche. But you should have a little bit more leeway. That's all I'm saying. No leeway.

I don't want... No, you think all leeway. You're all leeway forever. Okay, so let me tell you. So I'm a Jew, right? I don't like people saying bad things about Jews. And what you're saying is that, but if I can find a situation where I'm punching up, I should be able to do exactly the same thing

that I don't like done to me, and I should get more leeway for it. And I'm like, no. I don't want to... Would you use the N-word? I don't understand the moral calculation. Hold on, I'll answer in a second. I don't understand the moral calculation of saying,

I'm going to permit myself more leeway. Oh, this feels good. I have more leeway to do what it is that I find totally unacceptable when people do it to me. Come on now. No, no. So here's what the calculation is, right? Here's the math. Am I missing something?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you are. I have leeway now. Who can I punch up? I have a lot of racial resentment. Who can I say it about?

There aren't a lot of people we can punch up at. We're doing well. Asians are doing well. Okay, again, it comes back to the, if you are... Asians don't even have Jews. I think number one is Indians in terms of income. Okay, go ahead. I can't punch up.

The punching down thing, again, it's the idea of like, are you normalizing the idea of demeaning a helpless minority or a minority that has been oppressed? That is the math. Are you making it easier to keep oppressing this one group? They're not oppressed. So I think they would push back against that. Yeah.

That would be the... You should have the conversation with them about why. At the point where the group of people that is the most successful in the nation feels oppressed... Economically. Economic... What else is there? If they're trying to be, let's say, represented in Congress, for example, are they equally represented?

Nobody's oppressing Congress people. Are people like, oh, I don't want to vote for a Chinese guy, for example. I have no idea. They vote Nikki Haley. Hold on, Keith. You're all over the place. They vote Nikki Haley. Hold on, Keith. Hold on, Keith. They vote Nikki Haley as governor

in a red state. Just hold on a second. The idea that I want to say one thing. The idea that you can take groups that successful and call them in many ways. Lower rates of incarceration.

Beautiful houses. Go to the best schools. Beautiful houses is a weird metric. But Alingan, you're Indian-American. I can't get my sentence out. You're going to describe

however you want to describe that as oppressed, as an oppressed group. You are gutting the concept of oppression because you're using the same word to describe Asians who are being limited because they're so successful with poor black

guys getting beaten up by the police. Another oppressed group, right? You should not dare to use the same word to describe what's happening to Chinese people and what's happening to black guys being beat up by the cops. That's a fucking outrage. I think there's nuance. Asians wouldn't be like, we are getting oppressed

in the same ways that black people are. Are you outraged? Yes, they're not even in the same universe. Alingan, if I can interject. There are a lot of Asians. It's not just Chinese and Japanese. Alingan is Indian. Alingan is Indian.

He went to a fine school, and he grew up, I assume, at least middle class. Do you feel in any way oppressed in America? And if so, how? Good question. I personally haven't faced it, no. But I think others have. Everybody's had their incidents. I've had my incidents.

But I was a loner. I never hung out with anybody. So I didn't have the opportunity. Why don't you just deal with the whole thing With the comic Can comics say anything they want Yes But you can say anything you want

Right And I did that Through school or whatever And I got punched 9 years out of 12 For saying anything I wanted That's fine Were you punched by any Asian people Absolutely

Okay so I stand corrected What I'm saying is You can say what you want But you gotta expect anything I wanted. That's fine. You're punched by any Asian people. Absolutely. Okay, so I stand corrected. That's an earlier statement I made earlier. What I'm saying is you can say what you want, but you've got to expect a response for saying what you want.

Yes, but corporate America, corporate America has ought to be pushed in some way to lay down some kind of objective standard that they believe in and then fucking live by.

Hold on. If this is about morality and offense rather than just what we can get away with and what we can't, then you've got to say, listen, NBC, we will no longer present anything that has the following words and you know what? If it means Dave Chappelle, we're not

putting Chappelle on either. There's nuance, though. They make the nuance up as they go along. If you can... To be fair, you have to be able to lay out,

just like the law, lay out a standard, a prospective standard. But then judges decide if there's nuance within there. So you can distinguish between Kevin Hart's tweet

and Dave Chappelle's joke about Michael Jackson's victim and this guy's podcast? Who am I? That's it. You're a genius for fucking nuance if you can distinguish that. No, I think it's like a

mask. There is no distinguishing it. We have to fall back on SNL made a business decision, which you disagree with, Noam, but their accountants may have other and their stockholders may or may not be in a court. If something came through here, Noam, that affected your money,

some comic, whatever, that affected your money, and the people you noticed was going down and down, you would have to make that decision. You know what? You of all people ought to know better. How many spots do you have this week? Well, Noam has admitted that he would have buckled eventually if the Louis C.K. pressure became too intense. However, it did not become intense. Why are we criticizing SNL? Why were you criticizing the Oscars for firing Kevin Hart?

Because that's my friend. I told you. I was being a hypocrite. It's a good joke, but that's right. The point is that let's not, this is my whole argument here is that I want to hear somebody lay out something which I can't in 10 seconds find to be hypocritical. And then I might agree with it. It's not hypocritical. Let me say this for real. Because I don't believe that you should go back and pick somebody's tweet up that was 10 years ago.

It was seven years ago, yeah. It's 10 years. Kevin Hart's tweet? Yes. I thought it was seven. ago, yeah. It's 10 years. Kevin Hart's tweet? Yes. I thought it was seven. Okay, whatever. I thought it was seven years. No, you can't unearth that like it's a police record and then go,

that's what they did to this dude. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. 2018, this dude. I said this before. I think there should be a statute of limitations on your tweets or whatever. Give me something like everything else. How about you, Ryder? Yeah, I think people can grow.

That's the whole point. You talk to them. you explain it to them, and they can... He doesn't find that joke... He wouldn't say it today, right? Oh, the... Kevin Hart? Well, who knows? Probably not.

No, but partially because he recognized that people might feel offended by it, and partially because he realized there would be a backlash behind it. But that's how you grow. Kevin Hart's also adorable. Don't use the word grow. I don't know what you mean by that. I think realizing other people are affected by what you're saying is growth. No.

Yes, if that's the reason he's doing it. But shutting up because you know you're going to get yourself in trouble is not growth. I agree. It's self-censorship. Well, it is, but that's growth too. Like 86, I was on a show called Our Voices is not growth. I agree. I agree with that. But I think it's self-censorship. Well, it is. But that's growth, too. Like, 86. Not moral growth. I was on a show called Our Voices

with Chris Rock and whoever else was on there. And I was trashing Eddie Murphy in 86. Like, Eddie Murphy stole... I was running my mouth. Now, I'm growing up now to know better. That was the dumbest thing I could do. But I didn't know that back then because I didn't think I'd ever meet Eddie better. That was the dumbest thing I could do. But I didn't know that back then because I didn't think

I'll ever meet Eddie Murphy. So when you grow up a little bit and you know a little bit more, you know, oh, I can't say all this stuff. I knew that, oh, that was wrong. Yeah. Also, it's like at some point,

I'm sure Kevin Hart might look at those tweets and say, yeah, they weren't funny. But it's not that they weren't funny. They're not now. That's the growth. It's like, oh, it's not funny anymore. Yeah. Well, listen, times change.

What's funny? If we were sitting at a table and that same conversation that went on the podcast went on and somebody used the word chinks at the comedian table. We've heard these words before. No comedian would get up and walk away. No comedian would say, how dare you speak that way. Everybody would laugh. They'd understand the spirit of the moment

and kind of where the outrageous place that the guy was coming from, as Mark Norman very well described. That's the nuance. That's the context. So what happens in a podcast is that you forget yourself. And it comes out and you're a nobody and you have a few hundred listeners

anyway. You're not making the decision to go national with it. You think, you know, it's basically under the radar, although it is downloadable to the world, it still nevertheless is under the radar. And now they take this guy and they unearth it, and it is downloadable to the world, it still nevertheless is under the radar. And now they take this guy and they unearth it, and it's not fair. But when people say they are offended

by it, have the conversation with those people. Of course people are offended by it. I was offended by Mel Gibson. I'm saying that that is a very weak and highly subjective standard to start

meting out punishment to people's careers because they offended somebody. You ask for a standard. Is this an appropriate standard? Yes or no? The standard is if they're in their honest opinion, it would be bad for business, which, by the way, is the same way you make business decisions. You don't have a hard and fast rule as to which comedians you use necessarily or which waitress you're going to hire and fire. But if you feel it's bad for business, you make the decision. They can do what they want, of course.

They didn't have to give Mel Gibson the movie. I'm saying that they're miscalculating. But you feel it was a bad business decision, as you've said. I think the public, I think if the head of NBC came out and said, listen, here at NBC, we decided we're going to give, just like we give amnesty to undocumented aliens, we're going to give amnesty. That's what NBC would say. I would say illegal.

Just because we're going to give amnesty to everybody's back tweets and back podcasts and all the things that they said before they knew the world was watching. What you say from this point on is going to matter to us, but we don't want to take part in this bloodlust that's been going on right and left to just try to find anything that anybody ever said and ruin them. And I think they would get applauded for

such a statement. And I also think that the next time they hired somebody, this wouldn't happen, and they would have more freedom going forward to make decisions because they would have made it clear that we're not going to listen to our public when it comes to hiring decisions. That would be my business decision. And by the way, Noam, I want to thank you, by the way, for losing your shit on this podcast. I thought it was very entertaining.

And I also thought the point you just made about what SNL should have said, I'm ready to get up and applaud you. Noam thinks I fucking poo-poo everything he says. I'm going to stand up right now and give you an ovation. That was beautiful. What's that for? For what he said about we're going to give amnesty, and from this point forward, what you say matters,

but we're going to give amnesty for all tweets and podcasting. Yeah. I thought that was a bit. He just broke my essential limitations. He's a thief. Yeah, but he made it his own. Yeah, that's like, okay. That raises questions, though, right?

It's like... Yeah, because this is the problem. It's not clean and fast. It's like, well, did you hire the guy? Did you... Let's say you put out that standard. Let's say they hired Shane under that standard, right? And then this all came out.

And a lot of people ask, well, did SNL know about this and find it funny? And are they hiring because of that? Are they making room for themselves to hire people? Are they tacitly endorsing that kind of shit? And that's the question that then becomes. How do you feel about Kevin Williamson being fired at The Atlantic? Oh, I played a role in that. Now you just lost me, Keith, and maybe a little bit. I played a minor role. We'll talk about it off the air. Oh, I played a role in that. Now you just lost me, Keith, and maybe Alingan.

I played a minor role. We'll talk about it off the air. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin's story is, I mean, there's so many fucking, but it's media bullshit anyway. Can you hang out a little bit after the show? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to run.

This is great, though. Alingan, I'm sorry that I said you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Oh, no, that's fine. He didn't, at least he didn't. But that's the point. Just have the conversation. That's what we're doing.

I like that. Alingan, on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate this episode? Oh, no, that's fine. He didn't, at least... But that's the point. Just have the conversation. That's what we're doing. I like that. A lingon on a scale of 1 to 10. Yes. How would you rate this episode? Oh, this one was a good one. I thought so, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

I thought so, too. So I wanted to talk to you about Barry Weiss. Your book was about Barry Weiss and... Oh, yeah. And we could talk over a drink now.

Yeah, let's talk about it. Keith, you know, and I'm sorry I made the joke about I don't care how much money we lose, you always have a home I made the joke about I don't care how much money we lose you always have a home here at the Comedy Cell goodnight everybody

goodnight