The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - To Tip or Not to Tip

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

Hari Ziyad and Jeff Leach

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Comedy Cellar Show here at the Comedy Cellar on Channel... Sirius XM Channel 99. I'm here, as always, with Mr. Dan Natterman. Hello, Daniel. How do you do, sir? What's up with you? Well, first of all, as you know, the night of this recording,

it is the Yom Kippur. The fast is just ending right about now, and I'm going to have a sip of water to break the fast. You fast? I fasted not entirely. I started late.

I started about 10 p.m. You're supposed to start at like 7 or 6 p.m. last night. But you don't believe in God. That is correct. But what I do believe in is the need to suffer.

And for some reason, I think... Nothing more Jewish than that. I think it's a good exercise in self-discipline and just sort of a good exercise in reminding us that not everybody has food and what hunger is and what it feels like a little bit. And I think it's a good lesson.

So I do it every year. I think about every day. I think you're just trying to like one day a year think about us. You don't have to think about it the rest of the year. But I think if there's a God, he's getting a good chuckle out of you, Dan. Alright. Also, we have, I mean, can you imagine, like, God, like, he knows that Dan doesn't believe in him,

yet Dan is doing the stuff that he asks of him? I mean, we don't hear his questions. It's the only thing that I do of a religious nature because, A, I do think it's a good exercise, even beyond the religion. Even if you think it's bullshit. I do think it's a good exercise even beyond the religion. Even if you think it's bullshit.

I do feel guilty. It's just weird how things get inculcated in you. I want to tell you something about that. Even though you don't believe it, you do it anyway. Jeff Leach, did they give me a bio on Jeff Leach? No. Well, Jeff Leach, one of our... Yes, he has a bio right here.

Hailing from the UK. Oh, I see. Hailing from the UK. Jeff Leach is an of our... Yes, he has a bio right here. Hailing from the UK. Oh, I see. Hailing from the UK. Jeff Leach is an international comedian and film actor. He was a regular on BBC Comedy. And he's the host of the podcast Savage Snowflake. He produces and hosts the End of the World show and Stand-Up Synonymous. And our producer, Periel Aschenbrand.

I mean, it's just like never going to get it right. Say it exactly like that. He knows how to say it. Have you ever considered pre-recording the intro? Is it Aschenbrand? Yeah. That doesn't sound like the way we said in the old country to me. All right, anyway.

Aschenbrand. Yeah, that's what I said. And Dorman was probably Dvorman. Dvorman, yeah. Anyway, and finally, Hari Zaid. Did I say it right? Ziad. Hari Zaid. Did I say it right? Ziyad. Hari Ziyad.

You know, Rashida Tlaib is spelled T-L-A-I-B, and everybody calls her Tlaib, but I'm sure it's Tlaib. And I was so sensitive. I mean, you can't even get my name right. And then I read this wrong. I'm here every day. Hari Ziyad is a screenwriter and the author of Black Boy Out of Time, set to be published in 2021.

They are also the editor-in-chief of Race Bader and the managing editor of Black Youth Project. Welcome. Thank you. I invited you on because you wrote an article that said that tipping is racist. More or less. Yeah.

You mean tipping as in at a restaurant? Yeah, tipping at a restaurant is racist. Could you keep your voices down because the wait staff here look very angry right now. I was fascinated by this article and of course we have a restaurant here and people are tipped and

I don't think that makes us racist but it's an interesting article so do you want to tell the people a little bit about that? Why is tipping racist? Talk a little closer to Mike if you don't mind. Or maybe I'll just turn off your mic. Go ahead and talk. I'll turn you off.

Getting it. So, yeah, more so saying that the institution of tipping as a labor practice influences how waitstaff interact with black customers customers there are studies on this that show that they're linked to racism i don't think the actual process of giving someone money they do a good job is in and of itself racist so i was just arguing about in that piece how especially for me as i grew up not having the means really to go out and eat out, learning tipping culture, and then kind of getting forced into that as I came to New York. And seeing how that plays out and trying to overcompensate

a lot of times is what happens when black folks, especially when they first get into the middle class, they do that. And the toll that that takes on you as a black person of like always feeling you have to overcompensate for something that you didn't have any hand in and in this piece I talk about specific instance which is just one instance but I've I've had this a lot with wait staff who might assume that if you're a black person you don't tip a certain way And how that bleeds into these interactions as well. So it's not necessarily that giving money to a waiter or being nice to your waiter is racist.

But the entire institution of tipping, and this is actually a historical fact as well, goes back to racism. It was actually a way initially to not have to pay black waitstaff as much because tips were how most people got their money. So just historically, that's what it is. What did they historically do? Did they not tip waitstaff of color and they would tip waitstaff who were white? That was historically what happened, was it? In where?

This is in New York. This is, I mean, I think this is just like the beginnings of the labor practice of tipping. Okay, now can I ask you, without appearing to be too challenging, where did you determine that fact? Because it seems to me that tipping as an institution, maybe not for waitresses, but tipping in general, is a worldwide thing.

Where is it that, where did you learn that? And we're not the only country even that tips waiters. Right, right, right. Countries, single race countries, some of them have traditions of tipping as well. Yeah. So where did you learn, where did you learn? So in establishing, so you know that in a lot of places, you don't have to pay waitstaff minimum wage because it is assumed that that will be offset by tips. And so the fact that you can pay service industry folks with tips is a process that came about through racism. Okay, so you wrote about this minimum wage,

and I took issue with it because we do have to pay the minimum wage. It's a lower minimum wage, and the reason is because they make like three times more than the minimum wage in tips. So I don't even know why, to be frank, I don't know why we have to pay them anything. Like, the waitresses, on average, are the highest earning people that work here. In this venue?

Yeah, in most places. I mean, I don't know about every place, but waiting tables is a pretty good job. Especially in New York, it can be really... So, and... If you believe in the concept of a minimum wage, if you believe that everybody should make $15 an hour,

$15 an hour, then if you know the waitresses... And don't forget, most of the tips now are in credit cards, so you know exactly what they're making. Or even if you were just going to do it

just by credit cards, so you don't have to take any cash, make any assumptions. If you know the waitress made $100 in a five-hour shift on her credit card tips, why should you have to pay her an extra $10 an hour? In tips? In other words, if she's making above the minimum wage just in tips,

why should the employer then be required to pay her? Why can't the employer just be required to pay her? Why can't the employer just be required to pay her the difference between what she earned in tips and the minimum wage? Well, the point is that it shouldn't be based on someone's discretion. So if you want to pay waitstaff well, which I think we all should, and you're saying that you do, and that's great. No, I don't. I pay them the minimum wage. But they make over $1,000 a week. You don't want to pay them well. I don't.

No, I'm saying they make very good money. Right, right. And so if we want to keep that the same and we don't want that to change based on factors like someone's race or someone's gender, then it should be a standard pay. But what he's saying is it's a bad system. It should be like in Europe where waitstaff gets paid a decent salary

and customers don't tip. Okay, but here, Danny Meyer's restaurants. Which, by the way, is not factually correct. We still tip in Europe. We just tip on top. A little bit less, 10%, 15% generally. But, I mean, we still tip even though a lot of those tips, I'll actually ask in a restaurant, does this go to the waitstaff or does this go to the venue?

But you don't have many black waiters there. In where? In Europe? Yeah. Oh, in London? Yeah, you do. I was making a joke about it being racist. In Sweden, yeah, you'd be hard-pushed to find. So Danny Meyer's restaurants, they eliminated tipping. And he lost a huge number of his staff.

He's having trouble there. I've read a few articles about it. They're having trouble holding on to waiters and waitresses because they make way more money. I was going to say, if you presented the option to wait staff. Then he could augment their salary. And he would also have to raise the price of the dishes. I mean, the customer. Yeah, he could augment their salary, and he would also have to raise the price of the dishes. I mean, the customer— Yeah, but he can't—yeah, he could, but—

I'm just saying it's really exposing how tipping is not oppressive to the staff. They do well by the tipping. Well, yeah, I mean, and again, this is situation by situation. There have also been many restaurants— and I don't study this. I'm not an academic that does this. But there have been other restaurants that have gone through this process, and that has been actually led by the wait staff who've created this because they want standard tips for the entire staff.

So I think it depends, and like you said, you have to augment it properly. Ultimately, it should be about equal, but what we don't want, or what I don't want, and what I was arguing in this piece, is for it to be up to the customer's discretion who gets paid what. You're saying because that would result, potentially, in African-American waitstaff getting less from customers. No, he's worried about the African-American customers being treated bad by the waiters. No, no, I mean, in the piece I'm talking about that. But I'm also talking about the staff. I mean, ultimately, I tie it back to it being a labor issue. And that is what happens.

There have been studies that show that. That black waiters and waitresses get tipped less? Yeah. And this isn't... A lot of staff will share their tips, so it doesn't always affect it the same way. But that has been shown in studies. I can believe it because I think that women that you're sexually attracted to,

you're probably going to give a bigger tip to. And if you're into white women, then that's an advantage for them. So I can believe that there are differences. That's why I exclusively eat at Caribbean restaurants, Dan. Now Jeff Leach, of course, you prefer black women.

I don't prefer any type of woman. I prefer beautiful, Dan. Now, Jeff Leach, of course, you prefer black women. I don't prefer any type of woman. I prefer beautiful, intelligent, talented, creative women. With dogs, yeah. Well, I mean, we have a penchant, shall we say. But I don't exclusively only date women of color. I've dated lots of white girls as well. Much to my misery. But do you find yourself tipping at restaurants based on attraction?

No, I tip solely based on the service that I'm given. But I generally, I feel that, and this is, maybe this is another racial element into it, but as a white European, I've always been taught, especially when I came to America, that you have to tip 20%. You tip everyone 20% unless someone does a bad job. I could go into any of the diners up and down, you know, one of the main streets here where people are like,

hey, there's your eggs. Enjoy your fucking hash browns. And I'd still give that guy 20% because he probably lives on those tips that he receives. He does. Well, is it 20% now? I mean, it was 15% when I was a kid.

Now it's sort of 18%. No, it's 20%, Dan. It's 20%? Since when? The Goyim. It's 20%? Since when? The Goyim swished to 20% years ago. Usually when they give you a check, they give you three suggested tips. Yes. And it starts at 18%.

And then I think they give you 20%, whatever they give you. But 15% is not even listed. This is a classic psychological framing effect. They give you three numbers. The taxis do it. They say, how well are you doing? 25, 30, or 35%. And you pick one of them.

Well, you can also pick your own. Right, but the point is that they put it in your head and you feel like a jackass if you don't. And the automated options are often those high percentages where if you want to put your own in, you have to actually type it in. So it sounds like you all are also saying that it would be easier if it was just a standard, right? it's not necessarily easier i think you'd be hard pressed to push that

through with the staff themselves if you went to oh i'm not sure which studies you've read to show those facts and figures about you know people of color in waitstaff being paid less so it'd be interesting to read those but i think if you did another round of studies amongst restaurants and businesses with waitstaff and ask them would they want to standardize or would they rather take what comes on the night, you'd find most of them would say we'd rather just keep how it's coming in right now, the money how it's coming in right now I think, I don't know.

Yeah, no, I mean Will they be under less pressure to smile and you know. Absolutely, yes. It's astounding how much more money some waiters and waitresses make than others

what do you attribute that to? they do a way better job surely it's about ability and enjoyment including by the way including like Linda who's a black waitress who worked here for a long time she makes one of the highest amounts in tips

but I guess you wouldn't compare New York City Comedy Club's racial attitudes to what you might find in a roadside diner. I think it's personality more than how good a job you're doing. I mean, how good a job can you do? Here's the food. I mean, you can do, I waited tables for years. You can do an amazing job or a terrible job. But I think that the potential difference is far greater in personality than

in how good a job you do. I mean, you can really have a good personality. Okay, so let me tell you. You can't do such a great job. Oh my god, this waitress did. No, but you can do a terrible job. You can do a terrible job. Have you ever been to a Benihana? Have you seen what they do? Well, that's a performance. That's a whole different

thing. Well, I mean, come on, that deserves a little extra, right? That's a 35% right there. Yeah, but that's a very rare thing. Come on, that deserves a little extra. That's a 35% right there. That's a very rare thing. Most restaurants don't have that. Also, I've seen very unattractive, I hate to use it, unattractive waitresses. Subjectively to you. Subjectively to me.

I'm covering you. With non-symmetrical features and a non-golden mean ratio of hip to bust. Extremely overweight. They've done studies. Or an old guy who was in his 60s, a dude in his 60s who was not attractive. And they were consistently the highest earning servers. I'm very skeptical that the non-meritorious factors are nearly as impactful as you might think. Yeah, of course, a dude's going to tip a hot waitress just because he tips a hot waitress.

But as it evens out over the course of a year, I think that the people who do a really good job make better money always, no matter what they look like. The great thing is that there are actual people who've studied it, so we don't have to make that conjunction. He's calling your bullshit. There's nobody who's studied this. Yeah, I can actually, afterwards,

I'll send you, I'll come with, I'll send you this. There's a study for everything. Who operated those studies and have they taken a cross-section of all different industries? More than 50% of studies. You can look at them and say that. More than 50% of peer-reviewed studies, not just anybody's, 50% of peer-reviewed studies cannot be replicated.

I can test that fact. Where did you get that from? It's food for thought, but Norm, as an owner, would it be better or worse for you or neither to move to a non-tipping system? Well, if everybody moved to a non-tipping system together, then everybody would have to just increase the price of their dishes by 20%. Just raise every price by 20% and give it to the waitress,

and then I wouldn't care. Do you think psychologically if a customer saw a higher price of a dish, even knowing he didn't have to tip, that would affect him? In the short run, but then they get used to it because in the end they wouldn't be paying any more than they did the day before. So I think it's easy enough. I don't think it would be better for business, and I don't think it would be better for people going to work in,

I mean going to eat in businesses. Isn't the tipping system, at least for service industry, a little bit like any other industry? You get paid a higher wage, the better you get that job, the more effort you put into it. It's just a more readily available sign that you're doing a great job. I know that when someone does great service, they get a big tip. It feels good. If you work hard and you stand that material, you get to a bigger club.

Usually it's your boss that makes that decision. You don't tip an airline pilot, but if the airline thinks they're doing a good job, they'll promote them. It's not the customer that generally decides your salary. I see what you're saying. It is, at the very least, an unusual

system. There aren't that many professions like waitressing. I don't know. I mean, this is the thing. I guess it's racist. I mean, I don't actually believe it's racist. But leaving that just to the side, just like if it's not broken, don't fix it. This is a system which all over the world, for some reason, people stick to a system of tipping, you know?

And I think it's going to stay with us. I think there's some wisdom in it that is not apparent to us but must be there because it's lingered on for so long that it hasn't been disposed of anywhere, as far as I know. I think what I think would be a fact, if you eradicated tipping altogether, you would see a massive decrease in the ability of waitstaff. People would just not try as hard because they know they don't have to. But then your boss could say, hey, we're getting

complaints about you, you're fired. It's the same system that the comics say, the comics, we don't get tipped by the audience, but if we're not killing, then Esty will stop using. So the boss is making that decision instead of the customer. No, no, no. What do you mean no?

You're not going to stop using us if we don't kill? Yes, but there's a much better analogy for tipping, which is salesmen. Salesmen make commission. And that goes way beyond wages. I mean, that's everywhere. And tipping, in essence, is commission for sales. And waitresses who give good service and are available more

and able to get more reorders and they're when people want extra drinks and all that stuff. And I'm putting it that way because a lot of businesses encourage the waiters to go out and try to drum up business. But the truth is,

we don't do that here and it's not even necessary. The biggest factor in checks being lower is that you can't get the fucking waitress when you want her. We've all been through this. You know, you finish your drink and you don't see her for another 20 minutes. Sure. And by not coming back to the table when she should, she's making less money.

Her commission on sales goes down. And if you eliminate tipping, it's the same as a car dealership. And it's the way eliminating commission on sales for the cars. It's going to be a mess. I mean, I think those are different in that salesmen are selling specialized things you don't necessarily always need. When you're going out to eat, you're coming for one specific thing. Every salesman makes commission. Yeah, yeah.

Also, coming to a restaurant is a speciality that you don't necessarily need. Well, but the women aren't selling the food. They're coming to buy the food, and you just happen to be the... You're like, the analogy might be the cashier. They're coming to buy the food, and you're there to take the order. No, but he's selling the car.

The waitress is not... They're selling the food. Try the specials. It's exactly the same thing. To an extent, they're selling the food, but usually you come in and you order, and they happen to be there to take your order and to deliver the food, but they're not coming to your table and saying,

are you trying to pay high prices for a cheeseburger? I've got a deal for you. This cheeseburger, this handy-dandy cheeseburger. That's one kind of salesman. Every salesman, even high-end, even big corporate thing where they're selling books to libraries or something, they're paid on commission because everybody knows if you're not paid on commission, why would you?

What's your incentive to sell? I don't see waitresses as salespeople, but there is a component, but I think a small one. What's a waitress's motivation besides the honor of her job to get to that table every second she can be there? So she can take orders. But that's not a sales job. Yes, I'm saying it's directly related to her orders. She knows the more she sells, the more she goes home with.

Yeah. And if you remove that from the equation, she'll check her text messages. But the thing is, there should be an objective person who's determining that. Like you said, there are bosses, there are systems. You can look at the end of the night, say, these are the tables. You can even, if you want, give feedback,

implement a system where you can give feedback for a waitress job. Here's what you liberals have done to us. In a perfect, even in a semi-imperfect world, that might be plausible, but the fact is you can't fire anybody for anything anymore. You think I'm going to go up to a,

can I speak like really like outrageously? Like if I, you think I'm going to go up to a waiter who identifies as they and fire them because they were, because the customers complained they couldn't get service, I'm going to be so scared. I'm so scared to fire anybody because of the immediate accusation that I was firing them not for the reason that I say,

which is always the reason, but because of something that they decided that was some bigotry or some improper motive that they're going to attribute to me. That's where they're going. You're fully within, not in New York, but in most places, fully within the law to fire people based on their sexual edification. So in most cases, that's not the case. The Supreme Court case right now that they're hearing is

they're probably going to make it completely legal to fire trans people. Yeah, that would be terrible if they do that. I mean, I don't know what the Constitution actually says about it, but... And gay people, not just trans people. Yeah, people get fired all the time. I mean, I'm sure I've been fired. If you want to go into that, so... Listen, I don't support, I think everybody knows,

I don't support firing anybody because they're gay or they're trans, God forbid. But they're basing this on a law, and the law only says about you can't fire a woman or you can't fire somebody because of their sex. And that's the law they passed, and now they're trying to say that the law goes beyond that, and that's probably not a strong legal argument I'm not I haven't really looked into it but that's not a strong constitutional argument the

legislature is supposed to make the laws that's our system and they are perfectly able to pass a law saying it's illegal to fire anybody based on sexual orientation source to gender or how they identify, or whatever it is. Is that going to apply to hiring as well? That you can't be hired purely based upon your gender, sexuality, or race? Yeah, I think they really should pass that kind of law.

And look, if the Supreme Court reads it into the law, I'm not going to object to it because I'm just going to pocket the... I mean, I'm happy with the outcome, so what are you gonna do but if i if you held a gun to my head and you wanted me to be perfectly logical about it like well i you know i don't know there's a we have a legislature and we have a court system and quite often we hate the court because they don't come out with the policy decision that we would

like but that's not what they decide. Fortunately, within another year, this won't even matter, because let's be real, right? Most waitstaff are out-of-work performers trying to become actors or comics or musicians. And then right now... In New York, they are. Not in every other part of the country.

No, not in Indianapolis. I'm just fucking around, Dan. I mean, it's all right. You can jump down every... It's all right. And then now, based on all the emails I get, every role I go up for is normally met with a response of, we've actually changed this now.

We're only taking diverse bookings. So within another year, everyone who's a waitstaff of color or female or trans or gay will be in Hollywood anyway. Are you saying – So there will be only white straight men left in work. Do you hear this white man – Do you hear this white man? Do you hear this white privileged man? Not just privileged by white, but privileged by being handsome,

complaining that he can't get work because he's white? I'm only here to see if you actually have any waitstaff jobs available because it's... So this is interesting. Hollywood has nothing for me. When you hear a guy like that complaining about the fact that he's being discriminated against because he's white. I mean, poking fun at a situation

rather than complaining about it. Let's be honest. It's frustrating. I'm not complaining about it. It's frustrating. I'll be very honest. So you're complaining about it and frankly, I've heard this from many people. Many people. The agencies will tell you directly now.

I've heard it from camera people. I've heard it from stagehands. I've heard it from writers. I've heard it from many, many people. Yeah, it's an industry-wide rush. So I'm presuming that you're on the other side of that political debate. What would you say to him to make him understand why he shouldn't be bothered by that? I mean, I don't care.

You don't care. But, I mean, there's still... You want people to care about your situation, right? I don't care if you care about it, but it's still there... See, that's problematic for me. I'm also, by the way, a left, politically leaning, democratic liberal.

No, but it's really problematic for me to hear that. Whether we're joking, I'm jesting, obviously, about what I'm saying, but it is frustrating. You're not jesting. Don't own it. I'm jesting about the idea that people of colour and trans people are never going to be working in waist-dialing. I'm not jesting about the fact that it

frustrates me to see you jump. But how do you think everybody else feels? I mean, everybody else has been feeling like that for their entire lives. Relax, angry woman at the end of the table. It's you. Let me finish my point and I'll tell you. Don't call me that. One at a time.

You're being very defensive and angry. You are so frustrating to me. One at a time. I'm not angry at all. Well, then let me finish my point and I'll explain. You won't even have to ask that question. I think it's wonderful to see the diversification of every industry. It would be great to see people of diverse nature getting a fair and equal chance at every job

and I think that has to apply to everyone who goes up for that job at the moment we're not in it we're by no means in a situation where white straight men are dominating the performance space and the performance and entertainment industry

we're not and there's studies to prove it. That's not based on any... No, no, it is. It's based on the number of programs. You guys are getting your studies from the same place. I listen to great harmony when you talk to me. It is shown

through the number of shows that have been commissioned, that have gone beyond pilot stage to being on TV. It's factually correct that there are more people of color or females in those protagonist roles than there are white straight men now. And how long has that been going on? Listen, I'm not saying, but hang on a sec.

Hang on a sec. That's to suggest that, oh, it's all right if white dudes don't get any opportunities for the next 30 years because black people are women. He's been talking. Shut up, Jeff. I mean, all he's been talking. But it's frustrating to hear

someone who's campaigning for the equality of all people, which, by the way, is what I would like to see happen in the world. You don't have to look any further than my own home to understand that because my girlfriend

is a woman of color who I respect and admire and want to see her get all the opportunities she deserves that she hasn't necessarily got in the past because of her stupor. And who hired her? The best man in the world.

I did, I did. Go ahead. But it's very frustrating to be pushing constantly for the equality of all people, all genders, all races. And then here's someone who professes to be for equality go, but I don't care about your situation. That's really frustrating because I do care about your situation and I care about everyone's situation and it's a very frustrating

time right now. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. I'm just frustrated. But you can acknowledge that straight white men... Can I finish my sentence? Thank you. You can acknowledge that for...

Since the beginning of Hollywood, straight white men have had all of the opportunities and made all of the money. Well, the gay men were in the closet. Okay, but still. And so now it might be frustrating for you or somebody like you, but everybody else has been feeling like that. This is such a weak argument. Why is it a weak argument? Because it implies that people are not born innocent. It implies that Jeff is somehow, that there's some-

This has nothing to do with Jeff, though. Let me answer. It does. It absolutely does. Let me answer. It implies that a white kid born in 1990 somehow- Jeff was born a bit before that. I was going to say, bless you, 84,

but I'll take it. That's my stage age. That a white kid is not born innocent. He's born with the obligations and the guilt of what... Oh, no, I have to suffer. Wait, wait, wait. About how other white people

have been advantaged. Rather than we're all human beings and it's wrong to discriminate against anybody, we're saying now, no, it's not wrong to discriminate against anybody. It's now okay to discriminate against these people because for a while we were discriminating against those people. So how does that – That's not what I said. That's exactly what you said.

No, it's not. Hold on. That's exactly what you're saying because you're saying to him – No, it's not. That's not what I said. He's exactly what you said. No, it's not. Hold on, hold on. That's exactly what you're saying because you're saying to him. That's not what I said. He's complaining. He says, you know what? People tell me they don't want to hire me

because I'm white. And you say to him, well, yeah, because when Hollywood started, all the white guys were getting the job, so you shouldn't have a beef with that. I never said you shouldn't have a beef with that. As opposed to explaining to him

why it's okay for people to tell you that they're not going to hire you. Why it's okay. Because we talk about this many times. Because at some point, listen, I'm sure I've said this before. We used to have a dream, a common national goal, which was Martin Luther King's dream. Content of your character. And that was where we were all going.

That is clearly not the dream anymore. And this new Harvard decision is a perfect example. The dream now is to count everybody up by their skin color, by their sex, by who they say they want to sleep with, by what gender. And then we have to then lay that into, plot that, and make sure that we have X numbers

of each things. And that's not the content of your character at all. And yeah, that really bothers me, not that I'm particularly impacted by it in my life, but I don't think, I mean maybe this is, I'm speaking out of turn, but I like to think that if I were black, I would not feel that I wanted that to happen to other people. I would like to think that if I were black, I would say to myself, they did this to me and my people for years. I don't want to do that to anybody else.

Okay, but me saying that that's not what I'm caring about is not me saying that I... I wasn't referring to you. Yeah, but the point isn't that you have to suffer or whatever. And if it was, the suffering compared, like you said, to what has been happening, it's not even comparable. But the point is that there are still structures in place that allow folks, straight white men, to continue most of the money in Hollywood going to a certain group of people.

There's no two, five, ten years of casting a lead of color that's going to change that anytime soon. And so what I do care about is thinking about how do we shift that so that we could get to a place where that doesn't matter. But we're not anywhere near that yet. Do you agree that the money in Hollywood goes to the people who put people in the seats? I mean, Eddie Murphy, years ago, was making $20 million a picture at a time of very little diversity

because any Eddie Murphy movie was going to sell out of the box office. Who gets paid in show business or on the TV news or anything beyond the audience they attract? But who gets the chance to get that stage in the first place? Well, I mean, for a long time it was stacked, but I think right now...

It's still stacked. I work in TV too. Maybe it's just my wife's viewing habits, but every day when I go home there's's yet another miniseries on cable featuring people of color. That's great. Celebrate. No, it is. Hold on. It is great. I hope you don't think I'm complaining about it. It's great. I love to see America becoming that.

But I don't think we should ever then cross the line to say that, yet it's okay to say that I'm not hiring a black cameraman this week. I'm not hiring a white cameraman. I need a black cameraman. I know you have a great resume. I know you're a great cameraman. But I need a black cameraman. Listen, I have a very diverse

staff and a very diverse roster of comedians. This week in Vegas, I think very diverse roster of comedians. This week in Vegas, I think we have four black comedians and a Puerto Rican, four blacks and a Puerto Rican on the show or something like that in one show in Vegas. But I, so I, and it happened, but I will not, I will not hire somebody or not hire somebody based on their skin color. I'm just not going to do it.

And that's your point. not hire somebody or not hire somebody based on their skin color. I'm just not going to do it. Do you think that you're unique in that? No. It is incredibly diverse but I don't think all places are like that and you hear people saying all the time that comedy is filled

with a lot of straight white guys and it's been harder for other people to get ahead. Back when my father was alive, the black comics were dominating. Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor. That's like the highest level.

In the club still, Greer Barnes. I mean, it was... No, there was Def Jam comedy. Also, people like to equate what has been seen previously on television as what is the extent of what comedy is. There are so many black comedy rooms exclusively looking black comics all over the fucking world.

And that's great. Create your own shit. Create your own market. And if there's an audience who wants to watch only black comedy, create that. Right now, I don't get angry when I see a show. My friend Gina Yashere

has got a show right now that's blowing up huge. God Loves Abishola. It's an African-derived story. But it's the first Nigerian character on TV. So I'm not angry about... Wait, Jeff, one second.

Because you guys are mixing stuff and the listeners might get confused. Talking about stand-up comedy in the clubs is one thing. I'm not talking about getting leading man roles in TV shows and movies. That has not been...

That has been difficult for black people to break through and may continue to be. I'm no expert on it. Not for the last two years. But I'm just saying, in comedy, comedy was a very early, Flip Wilson, Bill Cosby,

these guys, these black comedians had TV shows in the 60s. So for whatever reason, stand-up comedy was one of the easier and quickest adopters of non-racist, of diversity, whatever it is. But other things,

no. Because we used to be an art and a craft that used to give a voice to everyone. That was the idea, right? What about the fact that, do studios have the right to say to themselves, we think a white guy is going to bring in more box office? We've done the numbers, we've done the market research. No, they should bring in the best actor

and the person who can sell. And if they want to bring in someone who sells tickets. No, they don't need to bring in the box office. We've done the numbers. We've done the market research. No, they should bring in the best actor and the person who can sell. And if they want to bring in someone who sells tickets. No, they don't need to bring in the best actor. They need to bring in the person who sells tickets. So is it racist to say, I'm producing the next James Bond, and I've done some market research, and I've learned from my market research that the public wants a white James Bond. Am I racist then for saying we're not going to consider a black James Bond?

No, the public's racist. Right, but we saw what happened with... The public's not racist. James Bond. Am I racist then for saying we're not going to consider a black James Bond? No, the public's racist. The public's not racist. James Bond is white. We saw what happened with Black Panther and films like this that we thought would never have as big of an audience as they were. I agree with you that studios need to

reconsider their position that black and Asian leading men won't fill seats but is it racist for them to try to try to maximize their profits by by factoring that in you know it's capitalism it's capitalism it's not race but I think in that same way it's also capitalism to now that you see that there is a pining for these types of shows it it's coming back the other way. I think studio has maybe the least racist people out there.

They just want money. No, no, no. I think a lot of these studios are virtue singing and they don't even commission. This is what upsets people with anything. Can I get this one point out? Because it's really, there's so many wonderfully talented black comedians, black actors,

a number of which I either know or I'm friends with or I'm aware of because I've seen them perform. And they don't get opportunities because these studios are not booking the best talent. They're not booking the best black actor. They're booking someone who's been on 12 other shows. And it's easy for them. So they're not booking based on talent. Right, but they're also not booking because they're full of hatred.

They're doing what they think is going to make it more equal. Right, but they're also not booking because they're full of hatred. They're just doing what they think is going to make them the most money, and they may be wrong. They want to sit in a shareholders meeting and go, look at us, aren't we great? We booked a few black shows in and we got that person, you know that. It's bullshit. It's like, virtuously, not real. You going to finish? Yeah, I'm just very frustrated.

He trails off. I had a coffee. He's kind of like a car with bad gas. You turn it off and... No, I don't, you know, racism but i think i think i think i think it's kind of like a like a car with bad gas again it's very obvious that it was on that um... not that that i don't you know racism is a word that's bandied about of very bluntly and it's not a very precise meaning i do think the following is true

that for instance seinfeld the studio executives probably jews many of them didn't think that such a jewish show could have mass appeal so they were very cautious about it and you see this happening over and over again and they they underestimate middle america's uh... uh... lack of concern for who's entertaining them as long as they're entertained now i don't think that's because that that that

anti-Semitism, but it amounts to a barrier, or did amount to a barrier to Jews because they were miscalculating based on race. I don't, it does not indicate any, and I think that we, but I think we really are on the tail end of

learning these lessons as a society. Right, I mean, when I'm talking about racism, I'm not talking about an individual person's animus. I'm talking about, like you said, the effect and the barriers that come up. And so if we're going to change racism, and again when I'm talking about it, I'm talking about system-wide, then you have to change the way

that the systems work. So it's not about whether or not someone has any personal animus, but we have to change the way things work if we want to strip down these barriers. I'd be interested to know how you think the system of entertainment and booking for TV and film, for instance, should work. What you think would be a more fair and equal way

to approach that process? I mean, I think I agree with what you said about this. It's not about having the best talent. There has to be some other way of incentivizing other than just what kind of market research we have right now, what we think will get the most eyes on a show because it doesn't incentivize the best talent. And it either leans lopsided one way or the other.

This is why there's so much forgettable TV right now. You guys think it's very important that it be the best talent. And I'm not underestimating the value of having the best talent. But, for instance, Star Wars didn't have the best talent. A producer makes various calculations. A Brad Pitt may bring a certain amount to the gross of the movie. An unknown of greater talent than Brad Pitt, he might think,

well, these guys are so compelling that once they see this, this will actually be even a stronger movie. And he's cheaper to hire. Whatever it is. But you can't have an inferior talent because no matter how famous

they are, as we've seen, a movie can totally flop if it's crappy. So the movie has to be good and it has to also fill the seats and it has to be commercial. And it's very unfair and brutal because that's why we have all these superhero movies now, right? Because everything else is a crapshoot and people lose a lot of money that way. We now live in an age where even if the movie is good, beautifully shot, well cast, well performed, it can still be turned into something, some kind of a protest piece,

like the Joker movie is apparently about white incels. Well, I haven't seen the Joker. A war cry for white incels. As a former white incel, it's not funny. Harry, so we've got a little more time. No, I'm getting late these days, but there was a time when... When you were very angry with me. When I was extremely hostile in my thoughts. It never manifested itself in action.

But there were some fantasies that were not peaceful. I think they made a mistake casting Quacken Phoenix instead of you. They should have done it. What else is on your mind these days? Well, Black Boy Out of Time, can we get to his new book? Hari's new

book, Black Boy Out of Time. It's said to be published in 2021. Have you finished writing the book? I'm still working on it. Okay, because that's why it's said to be published in 2021. Have you finished writing the book? I'm still working on it. Okay, because that's why it's said to be published in 2020. But you have a deal. I do, I do. So what is this book, Black Boy Out of Time? It's a memoir.

I'm talking mostly about where I was raised, how I grew up. My name is Hari because my mother is Hindu. She converted when she was younger. She's black. My dad's Muslim. And it's just about how I experienced race, gender, and sexuality, basically. Where'd you grow up?

Cleveland. And, yeah. Your father's Muslim? I came here 10 years ago. My dad's Muslim. Is he like a woke guy in terms of sexual stuff, or is that a friction with you? Part of your memoir.

Yeah, it's part of the... there was friction between both my parents. I mean, we're on pretty good terms now, but it didn't really come from his religion. Both of them are converts and they're both converted from Christianity. So a lot of their thoughts around that. You religious yourself? No, not really. I still do certain holidays their thoughts around that. You religious yourself? No, not really. I still do certain holidays, things like that. Now we know you identify as non-binary,

but we still, we're making assumptions here on your sexuality. No, I don't want to talk about his sexuality. We didn't invite him on, none of our business. Really, I don't want to talk about that. Unless he wants to talk about it, I don't think. I want to talk about... Let's just go with sexy. What are you going to... So what are you talking about in the... I want to talk about that. Unless he wants to talk about it. I don't think. I want to talk about. Let's just go with sexy. What, what,

what, what are you going to, what, so what are you talking about in the, so let me get back to my other question. What issues, you write a lot about race. What are the other hot issues that are on your mind?

I write a lot about gender, sexuality, and how those things interact. I think that blackness is a huge function of my queerness and my gender and so a lot of my work is around how we talk about those things in racialized terms and not necessarily chopping it all the way up I think when most people hear intersectionality they're thinking like you have this identity plus this identity. Um, and so my work is about how those things interact. Do you hear a lot of, so you travel in a lot of like intersectional

in the intersectional milieu, is that how you say Jeff? Like, you know, um, various organizations and meetings and read the, the, the blogs and stuff. Um, do you, do you find a lot of anti-Jewish feeling in those places no no a lot of folks who are in communities that I'm with are Jewish themselves but you know that people that doesn't no no yeah I mean not my best friend but you asked if I experienced that

no because you see that every time in one of these protests whether it's the women's march or the dyke march or You asked if I experienced that. No, because you see that every time in one of these protests, whether it's the Women's March or the Dyke March or Occupy Wall Street or whatever it is, anytime somebody wants to identify as being Jewish, it's a big controversy. Yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I have an experience. I mean, I know that there's this huge conversation about whether

critiquing Israel and anti-Semitism. Well, careful. But yeah, that's a conversation that comes up a lot. There's definitely racism within the LGBTQ community because there's now a black pride parade in London that my friends are telling me about, black gay friends. And I was surprised. I thought the LGBTQ community was pretty open

and pretty supportive of everyone. And they said, no, it's a huge amount of racism. People are people. Come on. You did say something about your queerness. I didn't bring it up. Noam, he did. Now, does queerness distinct from gayness?

So it's usually a matter of, queerness is more like a political identification people who uh claim queer they're usually talking about how they operate in the world and like what issues that they also um identify with more so than just their sexuality at least historically for me queerness um like you said gives me more room to also acknowledge that there is racism in a lot of LGBT spaces. And queerness is kind of a space outside of that where we can... Is it linked to the sexuality? Because I used to DJ in the queer club scene back in London.

And we were just club kids. We called ourselves queer club kids. But I was definitely only having sex with women. Yeah, I mean, it can be. Queerness is more so about non-normative. So if I found my in to Hollywood, this is it. I'm queer. I'm done.

What is wrong with, you alluded to, what is wrong with saying somebody suspects you're being racist? What is wrong with saying are you crazy oh half my friends are black and so some of my best friends are black like that's become like a a accepted uh cliche for a lame a lame defense because you can be friends with someone and still not like them i mean there are a lot of misogynists who have wives and girlfriends and they hate that. They still have hatred. But no, well, no, I never understood this because probably if you hate black people, you don't spend a lot of time socially hanging out with black people.

But again, I mean, if racism is not hatred necessarily, back to our earlier point, an overt disgust with someone. It can manifest in different ways. And so you can be racist and still like to hang out with black people because that gives you some joy. You like their culture or you like certain aspects of it. But that doesn't mean that you support them or you want to strip away the boundaries. No, I may not support them. It's an evidentiary.

I don't have to support them to not be called a racist. They don't have to support Israel to say that. I mean, I don't have to support them. I just have to treat them as humans. I don't have to agree with their politics. Is that the definition of race? If I don't agree with your politics on race, that makes me a racist?

No, I didn't say that. But I don't think that support means that you agree with someone all the time. I think support is... What if I oppose them? What if I have a bunch of black friends and they're like, really, they really support the racial quotas?

And I'm like, no, you guys are idiots. I can't stand that you feel that way. It makes me crazy when you guys talk that way. like, no, you guys are idiots. I can't stand that you feel that way. It makes me crazy when you guys talk that way. Now, oh, you're a racist. I mean, is that what we've come to? It's okay,

then I'll just keep my opinions to myself like most people do because they don't want to be called racist. But my only point is that I think that it's a natural thing

if somebody's accusing you of having a particular feeling about Jews or blacks or gays. And if you say, well, no, actually, look at the way I live. Look at who I socialize with. Look who I interact with. And they say, well, that's irrelevant. That's not proof in and of itself. It's pretty strong evidence.

I think it's pretty strong evidence. It's not ridiculous. I agree with them. It's not ridiculous to bring that up as a defense. It's not strong evidence. I think it's pretty strong evidence. It's not ridiculous. I agree with them. It's not ridiculous to bring that up as a defense. It's not proof positive that you're not racist. Well, there can be, though. You're trying to prove a negative. I'm not something. If I say, if you accuse me of racism and I can provide

evidence that I have many black friends, that's at a minimum... What's better evidence than that? That's at minimum a good defense, if not proof positive. I mean, just to play devil's advocate, John Wayne Gacy was like a church-leading family man, and he

had 17 dead bodies of children that he had buried under his house, so how you behave publicly doesn't necessarily mean what you do. I mean, that's a sociopath, though. You're talking about a serial killer. Well, I'm giving an extreme example just to illustrate a point.

I'm talking about how you behave privately. Someone who lives outside the realm of normal mindset and thoughts. I think when that usually comes up, it's because people bring that up as the only proof. What else can you say? It's after they've already been seen to be racist. And so Donald Trump bringing out someone who,

one of his black cabinet members, is not going to be proof enough. Yeah, they don't have friends. Donald Trump doesn't have a lot of black friends. But even if he did, well, you've already seen how he's been racist in other ways. So you need more proof than that. If someone has done something explicitly racist, yes. And then the fact that they might have black friends is not going to absolve them of their racist action. But it is a reasonable argument to make against the charge of racism.

I agree with Hari. There's definitely a lot of people who are incredibly racist against black people who would say that they have lots of black friends. Because if you've ever heard Jamaicans talk about Africans, then you know there's plenty of people, plenty of people shitting on other black people. Black Jamaicans talking about black Africans? Yeah, have you ever heard that? Of course I've heard that. Have you ever heard Koreans talk about Chinese people? I have.

There's a huge amount of racism within the race itself. You ever hear the old joke about I took my girlfriend to the Caribbean? Oh, Jamaica? No, no, no. She went on her own volition. I mean I have now okay

no but seriously I mean some of the worst racism I hear comes from people of the same race towards people from a different

you internalize things well no no one has no great love for the Hasidic community I'm young young Kipper no less

I didn't say it I mean I don't I don't not that I don't like the Hasur no less I didn't say it I mean I don't I don't not that I don't like the Hasidic community I just won't pretend

that they're you know that I would want to that if my if my neighborhood became Hasidic I wouldn't want that and people

why not because I don't want to feel like an outsider in my own neighborhood. And I think that that sentiment is often called racism. And it's not.

I don't think it's racism when the black community doesn't want all the white people gentrifying Harlem. Harvard? Although there's nothing they can do about it, but, I mean, it's a free country, but I don't, I don't take that as them hating white

people, that they want to feel that they live in the community they feel. And like I said, like, if you're, if you're, if you're Italian and you're gonna move to America, so you say, where am I gonna move to? Well, there's an Italian neighborhood here in Queens. Oh, great, I'm gonna go live in that Italian neighborhood. That's, that's not racist at all, right? You wanna go live's an Italian neighborhood here in Queens. Oh, great. I'm going to go live in that Italian neighborhood. That's not racist at all,

right? You want to go live in an Italian neighborhood if you're Italian? But then, if the neighborhood starts turning Chinese, and you don't want it to turn Chinese, oh, you hate Chinese people. No, I don't hate Chinese people. I still want to live in the Italian neighborhood. That's why I chose this neighborhood. I have nothing against Chinese people.

You should do it again, but in an Italian accent, so I can believe it. And it's called racism. Everything is called racism. Even the very normal thoughts that all decent people have, you know, is called racism. And to the point where it loses its punch. And I think that's really a bad casualty of the overuse of the word. What's that? Keith just walked in on point.

Speaking of someone who calls racism all the time, it's Keith Robinson. Are you inviting him over to speak, or are you just... Is there any way to stop him? Well... No. Don't even answer that. Keith, is it racist for black people

to want to keep Harlem black? Is it racist to want to keep Harlem... No, it's not racist because they want to keep it black because they want to stay in Harlem. They don't want to get pushed out. Is it racist to want to live in a neighborhood that you're familiar with the people, your own people, that you're comfortable with? Is that racism? What are you trying to set me up for now? If a bunch of Hasids want to move into your neighborhood,

are you cool with it? A bunch of what? Hasidic people. You mean as in Jews? Orthodox. He doesn't see any difference between them. A Jew is a Jew to keep. Anyway, I think...

Do you agree, Hari? I don't know what I'm agreeing with. Do you agree that it's not hate for somebody to want to live in a neighborhood or be around people like themselves? I don't think it's inherently, but it could be. It could be, that's right. It could be. Well, I mean, you know, I live in a very diverse neighborhood. What does that mean?

Diverse means a lot of Indians there. Oh, careful. Go ahead. What? Wait, is it mostly Indian? My wife is Indian. Go ahead. Is it mostly?

She's only like 12% Indian. Okay, so go ahead. My wife? No, she's 50%. Solid 50%. Is that from India or Native American? From India. From East India.

Go ahead. So how do you like that? No, it's good. It's good? It's good to meet other people. Everybody should be forced to meet other people. I agree with that. So they don't have a narrow view of who people are.

The reason why a lot of folks are scared of black folks and Latin people is because they never lived around. And they only get to see the bullshit that's on the news. How much do you tip usually? How much do I tip? I tip, I over tip. Just to prove that I'm not a bad tipper.

Well, that's what Harry was saying. He wrote an article about tipping being racist. Well, I mean, I don't generally pick up coins for a similar reason. When anybody's watching. When people are watching. Dan is a horrific tipper. I've seen him tip. No, no, I'm quite a good tipper.

No, I see you tip beforehand. Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm a bad tipper. I pre-tip. You pre-tip is bad. But I pre-tip very generously. What's that based on? But it's always a generous tip. Not according to me.

Not according to my overtip. My pre-tip is about 50% of the charge of the meal. I eat free here because I do the podcast. Pre-tipping is bad. Why is it bad? Because you know what? They used to... Because if they do a bad job, I can punish them the next time I'm here, because I'm here regularly.

No, but they used to, in Philadelphia, the IHOP used to make all black folks pay ahead of time. Yeah, but I'm doing it voluntarily. I'm not being forced to. Why'd they do that, Keith? Huh? I wonder why they did that. What do you mean? Why did they do that?

Because they're racist. All right. Well, it's nice that we brought it back to tipping. did they do that? Because they're racist. Alright. Well, it's nice that we brought it back to tipping. It was very deftly handled, though. Has anybody seen, I just very briefly, and we don't spend too much time, has anybody seen Gary Goleman's new special? I have not yet.

I saw it. It's called The Great Depress. Gary is one of, of course, our regular comedians. Are you familiar with his work, Gary? He's a regular comedian here at the Cellar. He just came out with an HBO special called The Great Depresh, it is about, Gary is one of, of course, our regular comedians. Are you familiar with his work, Gary? He's a regular comedian here at the Cellar. And he just came out with an HBO special called The Great Depresh, where he discusses his battle, his ongoing battle and his past battles, with the beast that is depression.

Very serious clinical depression. It's excellent. I mean, I think that for anybody who has struggled with any sort of mental health or knows anybody who has, which is pretty much everyone. Including our dear friend Jeff Leach, which just proves that good looks cannot fend off depression. Yeah, I talk about depression quite

a lot on the podcast. Well, then you must have seen Gary's new special. No, I have no desire to see anything that Gary Gorman puts out. I think that the less... Easy, easy. No, no, no. No, no, no. I'm not kicking off beef. I'm just saying the less that I say about Gary Gorman, probably the better.

I don't... I like... I like someone who sticks by their principles of what they present as their public persona and what they're like on a one-to-one basis. And I don't think those two things match up with that man. Okay, okay. You know what? I'm going to defend him.

You can, yeah, absolutely. To say the following. That I'm surprised that you, who have had your own battles with keeping the proper frame of mind, don't give more latitude to someone else who may have reacted in a way that may or may not have been appropriate when they were having the issues that you understand.

Absolutely. And you should just let it go. Absolutely. I have let it go. I don't walk around. I don't like Gary Gorman banner that I throw around everywhere. But if people are going to ask me a question about him, then I'll be honest. I say I don't.

You know what my issue is I've made plenty of mistakes in my life because of my depression, because of mental illness, because of being a fucking idiot in all honesty and when I do something wrong that's what Gary said about you actually and he'd be right

but what you do is you own up for it and you try not to make those same mistakes again I think physically intimidating and threatening other people within your career and then passing yourself off as an oracle of advice for new comics, I think doesn't match up for me. That doesn't match up for me. So I wish him great success, but it's not for me. You know, Jeff, it doesn't sound like you wish him great success.

That sounds kind of like the homeless guy telling me, God bless you, when I wouldn't give him a dollar. Gary Corbin doesn't give a fuck what I think. He's got a new special out. He's in the Joker movie. He's doing just fine. He's okay. He's great.

He's doing great. It's none of my business, and it bothers me that, I don't know. I don't want to air that during lunch. And I just feel like people should let things go sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. Just move on. Well, I had no idea that there was issues between you.

I thought you would surely enjoy a special that deals with things that you've dealt with. I probably would. I think he's a very talented comedian. I'm not questioning his ability. I'm just saying that I don't want to invest energy into something. I would say that in a certain lane that he's in, nobody can touch him. He's that good. But he can touch other people, though.

All right. Hey, there you go. It's phenomenal. I know I have a lot of people very close to me who have committed suicide or have struggled with really serious. I'm not surprised by that. You might be next. Can we state for the record, Hari did not

support that statement. He was very against that joke. I mean, it really is... It's really phenomenal. Yeah, it is good. I recommend everybody watch it. I went to the taping.

I had to leave. The last seven minutes I haven't been through yet. Actually, I had to resume it tonight. No, it is really good. I think comedians have been struggling with trying to find an original way to present their hours, as it were. And he found a way. And that's an accomplishment in and of itself.

Well, it's like Hannah Gadsby. I mean, she... Well, you know, I spoke favorably about Hannah Gadsby. Yeah, you were a big fan of Hannah Gadsby's special as well because she spoke of her issues with homophobia. And it wasn't necessarily funny all the time. It was interesting, and sometimes it was funny, but it also catapulted her to a level of fame far beyond that which most comics will ever achieve. Just being funny is not enough anymore.

You have to be either thought-provoking or... I don't know. Just being white and funny is definitely not enough anymore. You have to be either thought-provoking or I don't know. Just being white and funny is definitely not enough anymore. You know, Sebastian Maniscalco managed to become super famous, not because he's necessarily... I don't know if he's unique. He's pretty unique.

He's really good. I'm not familiar with his work. I just know that he's famous and he doesn't talk about depression. Dude, you don't sell out Madison Square Garden based on your YouTube videos if there's not some substance there. This guy never had a TV show. This is a viral talent selling out Madison Square Garden. He's incredibly talented. When I was a kid, Paul McCartney was one of the only people who could sell out Madison Square Garden. It's amazing.

Stevie Wonder had trouble selling at the garden. The point is he didn't do it necessarily with thought-provokingness, I don't think. So he did it another way. I think what he did at the MTV Awards or the VMAs was in itself thought-provoking by poking fun at the overt PC liberal left safe space mentality. Probably that didn't go over so well with the press. It didn't go over so well. fun at the overt PC liberal left safe space mentality. It didn't go over so well, but for everyone who didn't like that, for the

outraged Twitter mob that didn't like it, guarantee it sold him a huge amount of tickets across the country and other places. And it also started a conversation. I don't think he's hateful of people's ability to find safe spaces. I don't think that's who he is. I think he was poking fun at

how overtly we've swung from one side of the spectrum to the other. That's what I think. I didn't necessarily love all the jokes, but I could see the point behind it. It was still thought-provoking in itself. Hari, I feel like we didn't engage you enough.

You seem like a nice person. I almost said the wrong thing. You seem like a nice person. I almost said the wrong thing. You seem like a nice person. As you know, our podcast has to include comedic issues of the Comedy Cellar.

You know, so... And Harry, of course, is welcome to participate in those. But we do cover a lot of stuff. I would like Harry to meet Coleman, my friend Coleman Hughes. Well, I have that

written down on my sheet. I have it written down on my sheet, which we didn't get to. Thoughts on our friend Coleman Hughes article, The Case for Black Optimism, How Much is Left to Overcome?

But we're out of time. Well, yeah, but you know what? I'm going to send you that article. Have you read that article? I'll send you the studies. What's that?

I'll send you the studies. You send me the studies. And then maybe you could come on again if you'd feel welcome to and talk about the article if you want to. Are you familiar with Coleman Hughes? I feel like I've heard that name. He testified before Congress against reparations.

No, not against. He did not. That's how it got. That's what the headline was. He testified before Congress against reparations. No, not against. He did not. That's how it got. That's what the headline was. But he actually, that was not actually accurate. He opposed certain aspects of reparations and supported other aspects of them. He said that anybody who lived through Jim Crow ought to get reparations.

Anybody who was directly impacted by Jim Crow, he feels, should get reparations. So who was directly impacted by Jim Crow he feels should get reparations. So just to be accurate. But he's that guy, the young guy who spoke up there. So anyway, he feels that... Is he white or a man of color or is he... He's black. He is black. He's half... I believe he has some Latino...

But black, black. He's black-skinned and the descendant, an American descendant of slaves on his father's side, on his mother's side. I think he is Hispanic, but I'm not sure. Yes, but Hispanic black. Yes. Right. But he might have some native blood in him as well. All right, Dan.

Jesus Christ. You're like a Nazi. Not like a Nazi. He's an octobaroon. Who else devise people up that way? See, this is where the movement is going. I'm not trying to be over the top. They are literally going towards dissecting race the way the Nazis did.

Absolutely, yeah. It's really heading in that direction. It's madness. It's not enough to be concerned with an end goal of progressive equality. Now you have to be put into a different subsection. You're only allowed to support that subculture. That's frustrating. Because black people were doing that to Coleman.

Fair enough. He's a black guy. They were trying to figure out what percentage was this, what percentage was that. They were trying to figure out whether he was an American descendant of slaves. No. They're calling his mother. I mean, nobody did that with Obama. Is he black enough to have a voice on this issue?

That's the question. Well, everybody should have a voice on every issue. We believe that here anyway, that everyone should have a voice on every issue. For example, Noam is not Asian, you might have noticed. And yet he just came out with a new book, Indemissible, Why Asian Students Are Being Turned Down at America's Elite Colleges and Universities and Why It's the Most important issue of our times. It is an important issue.

Available from Harvard University Press in 2020. I'm going to tell you why it's an important issue yet again. It is an important issue because Asians are the number one immigrant group, more than Mexicans, more than Central Americans, Asians. And if we are going to encourage more and more Asians to come to this country,

we cannot limit them when they score well on their SATs. That's nuts. Being punished for achieving and working hard. Before they're American citizens, we say,

come to the country, it doesn't matter. I don't care how hard they work and how high they score, they'll never get as much pussy as Jeff Leach. Even among Asians. Okay, goodnight

everybody.