The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Tom Shillue & Tony Daro

Episode Date: June 11, 2017

Tom Shillue is an American stand up comedian, FOX News Host, actor and storyteller. He is also an actor and TV personality, known for Red Eye w/Tom Shillue, The Daily Show and The Five. Tony Daro is a standup comedian and former TV writer for such programs as Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show. He can regularly be seen performing at the Comedy Cellar.  

You're listening to The Comedy Cellar, live from the table, on the Riotcast Network, riotcast.com. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to The Comedy Cellar Show here on SiriusXM Channel 99. We're at the back table of The Comedy Cellar. My name is Noam Dorman. I'm the owner of The Comedy Cellar. I'm here, as always, with my—I guess you're my co-host, Dan. My co-host— Wait, you're just figuring that out now? Well, you know.

I thought that's what's... I never thought I'd have a co-host. I never signed up for that, but I guess I do have one. My co-host, Mr. Dan Natterman, and our producer, Mr. Stephen Kolobra, sitting in, and our guest, Stephen, I gave him a hard time,

and now he gave me an intro. Tom Shalhoub is an American stand-up comedian, Fox News host, and actor and storyteller. He is also an actor and TV personality. Anchor. You put actor twice? You know when they lead with American, it came right off of Wikipedia. He is an American stand-up

comedian. And you didn't put his new book in here. He has a copy of his book. I figured he'd plug it himself. You're right. I think when you introduce somebody, you actually put the starring in a new movie. It says so much. The cover is like, you know, that's all people want to talk about.

I don't mind. He has a new book called Tom Shalhoub Mean Dads for a Better America. The Generous Rewards of an Old Fashioned Childhood by Harper Collins. Is that it? Yeah. Available at Amazon and all the rest.

Well, welcome, Tom. Thank you. I'm happy that you can be on my show, even though I could never get on Red Eye. I did have plans. I mean, we can talk about the booking of that show. It took me a while to get Dan. I mean, Dan, do you remember when I asked you, will you do Red Eye, and you said yes? How long before that ask and the time you got on?

I don't recall. About a year. Was it a year? It was about a year, yeah. And somebody told me Noam wanted to do the show. Because I'm very political. Yeah, and they said, and I don't know, I forget who it was, but I think Christine, my booker, do you know Christine Cotta? Maybe by sight. Because she told me

I think, you know, and there was somebody else too. I think she came in one night. Yeah, they were like, first of all, you should go down and do their podcast. And second told me, I think, you know, and there was somebody else, too. There was, like, comics. I think she came in one night. Yeah, they were like, first of all, you should go down and do their podcast. And second of all, Noam should be on Red Eye because he's great. He knows all the issues. He's perfect for the show. I said, great. So I put your name in, and I didn't get a no.

I got a no response. And then, like, when you get no response, you get nothing. Now, I'm still there. I'm not going to say there's anything bad about Fox News. But the one thing was it was a little frustrating when I couldn't get guests on. And I don't know the rhyme or the reason of it, you know. But it's a news channel. They have a system of, like, you know, they didn't, they had, there was a couple of comedians.

Most comedians, they would, you know, they would just let me do what I wanted. But other times they would have them on and be like, oh, no more of that guy or whatever. Did they give Gutfeld more latitude than they gave you for guests? Did he have his way kind of? Well, it was a gradation because at the beginning nobody paid attention to him because he was on in the middle of the night. So as the channel became more, I mean, it was originally a kind of a cult hit channel. Now it's the number one channel. It's the number one.

It's number one. Like not news. It's number one in cable. Fox News. It's the top channel in cable. We're not, you know, people always, oh, Fox News, look at you over there. I'm like, it's mainstream. We are mainstream.

We're like, everybody watches Fox News. I watch it all the time. Yeah. And I'm so tired of this shit. I watch it all the time, and I'm smart, and I'm not in the echo chamber, and I read everything, and I watch other channels. There's a lot of good stuff on Fox News. Absolutely. And people who don't watch it are cutting themselves off from points of view that they should not be cutting themselves off from.

Absolutely. I mean, it's absurd. Most people, 90% of the people who criticize Fox News watch Samantha Bee, watch The Daily Show. They just watch a couple of clips. And most of it is false. It's like things, just little things snipped out or whatever. It's ridiculous. I mean, the channel has a great diverse

group of, it's the most, I've worked in entertainment. I worked at Comedy Central, Nickelodeon, you know, the, what are the, Viacom, all those Viacom channels, MTV, NBC, CBS. I've worked at all the channels. It is the most diverse place I have ever worked. Fox News is. Fox News. The diversity of thought. The fact that

they have people all across the spectrum. Do you think I ever ran into a Christian? You're talking about diversity of thought. Diversity of thought. That's the real diversity. Well, I know that, but typically when people use the word diversity nowadays, they don't mean diversity of thought. It's true. You're right about that. They mean diversity of skin color. That's an incisive observation.

I'm glad you brought that up. Well, it's an obvious observation. Yes. But I just wanted to make sure we're clear what you meant by diversity. Well, Fox has diversity of skin color, too. Absolutely. You're right. What's her name on the outnumbered? Harris Faulkner, is that her name?

Yes. She is fantastic on that show. Yeah. I mean, and a straight news person and a great opinion person on that show. She gives her opinion. It's, I mean, diversity of thought to me, if you're in broadcasting, that's all that does matter. And yes, it is diverse.

You've got people from, it's diverse in skin color, but also in religion. Like there are, you know, I don't remember meeting any people who were openly religious at Comedy Central when I was there. But there are people. But not all of them. There's atheists at Fox News. They come in all stripes. But the thing is, if you look at the... That's real diversity. You know? I feel the same way. I read

Jim Cramer's book a long time ago about Confessions of a Street Addict or whatever it was called. And he talked about his experience with Roger Ailes. And he said... And Jim Cramer's like a Democrat. And he said, everybody misunderstands about his experience with Roger Ailes, and he said, and Jim Cramer's like a Democrat, and he said, everybody misunderstands Roger Ailes. Roger Ailes loves a good debate by people who believe what they're saying.

That's a paraphrase, and Fox News seems to be that, for better or worse. I mean, I'm not a fan of Hannity. I think it's predictable, and he, you know, he's just kind of a shill a lot of the time, but I'm not going to stop watching the whole network because of that. Mike Birbiglia said to me,

I told him I was watching The Five, he goes, you're too smart to be watching that. I'm like, why are you saying I'm too, no, I guess I'm not,

I guess I'm just not as smart as you think I am. Well, Mike is dumber than he pretends to be. No, no, no. No, that's not a smart thing to say. Well.

You know. It's not smart. No, no. I know Mike. I mean, look, I've debated not smart. No, no. I know, Mike. I mean, look, I've debated this guy. These people, like, the idea is like, I'll go toe-to-toe with Mike Birbiglia any day on politics. And he's like, oh, Shiloh, you like, oh, you like that. It's like, it's, they don't know what they're talking about.

They live, I mean, it's the definition of a bubble. I actually agree with you. Now, I don't like, I'm trying to get away from the term smart or dumb because I think among all the people who are commenting for a living on their opinions, I think the range of IQ is pretty tight. I mean, they really are stupid. When we call somebody stupid, it's not really... No, Mike's smart, and he said a stupid thing. When he said that to you, that was a stupid thing to say.

That's fine to say. Yeah, it's smart. He said a stupid thing. When he said that to you, that was a stupid thing to say. That's fine to say. Yeah, it's not, it's not, yeah, okay. I mean, I think I agree with you. I'm just trying to avoid those words because what I really think it is

How smart is the average comedian? is closed-minded and smug. Do you think so? Listen, the dumbest of us are very smart. No, the dumbest of us are really dumb. Really dumb.

Profoundly so. Is Ray Allen coming, by the way, smart. No, the dumbest of us are really dumb. Really dumb. Profoundly so. Is Ray Allen coming, by the way, later? No, no, that wasn't... I don't know that he's coming. But I've wondered, like, sometimes I wonder... I'm just asking if you'd be loyal, that's all. I'm not implying anything. You know it takes brains to pull off that Aruba scam?

Yes, it does. Well, I don't want to... He's probably the smartest of them all. No, I don't think it's a scam? Yes, it does. Well, I don't know that it's a scam. He's probably the smartest of them all. No, I don't think it's a scam, but it's a win-win for everybody. Comics enjoy going down there, and Ray makes whatever money he's making. I don't know.

But you say the average comic is very smart. Yeah. I don't think very smart. I think the dimmest among us have a surfeit of intelligence, very smart. Yeah. I think... I don't think very smart. I think the dimmest among us are... are... have a...

a surfeit of intelligence. We are... we're loaded with intelligence and maybe it's a different kind of intelligence. I don't know, man.

I'm wondering sometimes how hard it really is. Like, you know, if... I wonder if everybody was forced to go into comedy, you know, how many people

would do it well? Yeah. You know, are we the best at what we do or just the best of the people dumb enough to get into comedy, you know, how many people would do it well? Yeah. You know, are we the best at what we do, or just the best at the people dumb enough to get into stand-up? Well, no, you're right about that. And not pursue real careers. Yeah. And I mean, there's a caveat. I would say anyone who got into stand-up

you know, before let's say, you had to be a working stand-up before 15 years ago. I think if you cut off the MCs, if you just take the MCs and segregate them out, you have a very high... Do you also think that you're... Go ahead. No, I mean, just judging by the jokes.

Now, of course, comedy combines two skills, writing the jokes and performing the jokes. So comics have to have both of those things. Yes. But intelligence, it would be more of the writing of the jokes is more indicative of intelligence than the performing of the jokes, I think. And just looking at the jokes, I don't know even how hard it is necessarily to come up with the average joke that stand-up comedians tell. And, you know, I've often wondered that. I've often wondered if I took one of my smart friends from high school

that's in medicine or law or science and they tried comedy for five years, how good they might be at writing jokes. I think an inquisitive mind is, not all the time,

is quite often an indication of a higher intelligence. And I think just the desire to be thinking about things all day long, and then trying to make them funny, that's how you make a living at it. But I don't know if it's, but just the active mind, thinking about the world, thinking about issues, thinking about how to look at situations, that's a sign of intelligence to me.

It is a creative intelligence. You know, people talk about different, you know, there's the, I don't know much about it, but people have written books about emotional intelligence. EQ. I'm a big believer in that. Well, I've read that musical intelligence, the ability to write songs, is of no correlation whatsoever to other kinds of intelligence. So one could be a brilliant songwriter and completely shitty in mathematics or in anything else. Absolutely. You know, it's just another part of the brain.

One can also be a linguistic genius. There are people that can learn languages very, very easily and are stupid at everything else. It's a whole other kind of thing. So I guess it could be that maybe, you know, comedy is its own particular type of intelligence. Now, that's a good segue into you,

because I met you as a stand-up comedian, not as a pundit and not as a Fox News commentator. Yeah. And are you still engaged in stand-up, in the classic art of classic stand-up? Oh, absolutely. I did stand-up last night at Caroline's, and I love it. And even when I was very busy with Red Eye,

I would get out and try to headline once a month, you know. And so, you know, I will always do it. Was it you that had the bit about the Christmas season, turning the channels and seeing It's a Wonderful Life on every channel? Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I did. And, you know, it was like I would do – you did anything to stay alive in the 90s, you know, so I would do impressions.

Yeah, because you're a gifted – the fact is you're a gifted impressionist, and we associate impressions sometimes with lower intelligence. What? We do? I think so. Wait a minute. Wait. Hold on. I think that in the comedy world – Comics look down their nose at impressions. They might, but intelligence? I don't know. I don't think.

Well, in the comedy world – I like impressions. Well, we all love impressions. They're craftsmen. They're craftsmen. They're crafts people. In the comedy world, I think impressions and jokes are two different things. And I think there's a sense among some that the jokes are the more intellectually demanding of the two. There's always the impressionist who was also a great stand-up like Daryl Hammond. You would see his act.

He didn't rely on the impressions. And you would be like, wow, that's a guy who can really, you know. So it was always impressive to see people combine the two. Or who I think, you know, what's his name? Who's the guy? Rich Little. Oh, yeah. But he was a total inspiration to me.

I mean, I used to love Rich Little when I was a kid. I used to learn his routines on his albums. I'd play them over and over. But, you know, who's the guy who does the sports stuff a lot? He's a great impressionist. Dennis Miller? The fat guy. Yeah, yeah. Louis Anderson. It's an the guy who does the sports stuff a lot? He's a great impressionist. Dennis Miller? The fat guy. Yeah, yeah. Louis Anderson.

Italian guy. Yeah, yeah. He's on Stern a lot. He's the greatest. He's the greatest. He does a John Madden. And he does Pacino. Everybody is listening right now. They're screaming. John Campanaro. No, no. Who is it? Frank Caliendo.

Frank Caliendo is a great comic. I mean, even if you watch him do an hour of only impressions, I mean, he's a great stand-up, you know? Well, sometimes doing an impression, you can incorporate a great joke within the impression. Yeah, yeah. Look, the comedians come at it from one point of view, but the audience, you know, they want to have a good time,

and you put somebody up there who's remarkably talented, even if it's tangential, and it's kind of funny, but it's still remarkable. He sounds just like John Madden. They're not going to say, hey, but that's not a cleverly crafted joke. But the comedians will. The comedians will get upset. Like Ryan Hamilton, what's his name? T.J. Miller had that bit with the slide whistle,

and Ryan Hamilton was all bent out of shape about it but it was hilarious I don't care I'm not a snob about comedy when I used to go to colleges and I would see I would do a set and then a guy a college comedian would get up after me in a Hawaiian shirt and do some kind of specialty act

but he would destroy, I mean they loved him it was like a total party and I'm like you gotta love that guy. I mean, he is you know, it's good. You were very tight, if memory serves, and I don't know if it's still the case, with Mr. Jim Gaffigan. Oh, yeah. You were besties. I mean, we're still besties. And you're still besties. Yes. So maybe

you have some insight into why he doesn't come down here. Oh, well, listen, what about me? Why aren't you asking me? Shalhoub, why don't you come down here? Jim and I started together and we both, you know, you have down here? Jim and I started together, and we both... You have your orbits. We're like rats. Comedians are like rats.

You go to your same places, and you don't get out of that path. And so we used to do Boston. The only time I ever... In the 90s, I would come to the cellar if someone said, you have an audition, and I would come. But it's just comfort. I would do... Lucian would be like, come do my club

and I did it. You know, you kind of, Gaffigan and I are both like, you know, we're not very, I mean, I'm much more social than him, but we're a little prideful so we just like, you know, I would go on, you know, I got on and started working at Caroline, started working at the Strip. Then, you know, what's his name up there

on 77th Street? Stand-up? No, New York. What's his name, though? Gabe. Or before that was Cary. No, it was Cary. So Cary saw me, come up to my club, you know. So I kind of, I waited to be asked, you know what I mean? And then you just get in your orbits, and that's where you live and die.

And then I started doing, like, the moon work in the East Village. So it just, you know. And Jim is probably the same thing. You know what I mean? He probably, he had his orbits that he goes, what's your theory? Yeah, well, first of all, I was supposed to say about Ryan Hamilton is a saint. When I say he was bent out of shape, I mean, he was just thrown by it. I don't think he gets bent out of shape about it.

No, but Ryan is nice to everyone. I mean, he would never get bent out of shape like that. His enormous smile just shrunk a little bit. It went down in the corners for a few seconds and then went back up. So Gaffigan, I think he had a beef with Esty. Probably. That's what I think. And I don't know why.

I think that when... I mean, I remember Gaffigan when he first used to perform here, and I remember thinking he was really funny, and I actually remember thinking he wasn't getting enough time, but I wasn't really involved in it that much in the club. And then he became huge. And he had not really been recognized

here for what he was that he became. And I think it stuck in his craw, and I think he still resents it. I like Wood. It could be. He never said that. I spent a lot of time on the road with him. And he never expressed any outward... I like Gum. I think he has too much class to express it. Yeah, I mean, he's a quiet guy, and he does have...

You know, he's kind of old school as well. He's got his things, you know, his people that he goes to. You know, he loved Gladys, and he continued doing Gladys' room even after he got big, because that's where I met him, at a Gladys room at Cold Waters. Was it just love at first sight? Like, you guys are, like, both so similar in terms of the whiteness. Yeah, yeah. Are you a Catholic?

Yes. Are you a practicing Catholic? Yes. And he's a practicing Catholic. And we would go on the road together and, like, our family, like, I would take my family along and we would make it

a big family affair. You know, it was, like, all the kids in the hotel pool and, um, so, yeah, we have a, we love spending time together. It was great to tour with him because he was just a great... Just going out for

steak after the show. I think that human beings, you react to something viscerally. It's just like, oh, you know... You go into a place where you had some unpleasantness attached to it and it just stays with you. You're just like, I'm not going in there. It's not spitefulness. It's just like, I'm not going in there. You know, it's not spitefulness.

It's just like, I don't want to go in there because it kind of like pushes... Even if it's like 20 years later. Yeah, it just brings back a certain vibe that why would I... I'm Jim Gaffigan. I don't need to put myself through that vibe. So he probably just avoids it. And I'm that way too, although not with the cellar. I just never... It was just not a...

You know, it wasn't in my orbit, and then it just remained not that way for me. And then it was like, because John Bush I was close with and Gaffigan and all the whitest guys. All the whitest of the whites.

It's really amazing, isn't it? But Bush and I and A.D. Miles would go to the strip. Oh, and A.D. Miles is another one. Yeah, and then we'd come downtown

and do Luna, you know, and so it was just, it's like your orbits that you travel in. But then there's the Boston scene look I'm a Boston comic but I never succeeded in Boston

I started I did Nick's I would do the open mic night on Sundays with Billy Martin you know and then I did Catch a Rising Star

but I never got above the Monday nights there you know and then I moved to New York and then I just never went back there it's like the Boston thing

I never made it in Boston so it's not like I'm not all charged up to go back and headline in Boston just never went back there. It's like the Boston thing. I never made it in Boston. So it's not like I'm not all charged up to go back and headline in Boston. I'll go back. How are they different? How are the two scenes different? Oh, it's for me, you know, I don't know because I don't know the Boston scene. But when I

when I went to the Boston clubs, I thought, oh, I want to be a stand up comedian because I love Bob Newhart. And I used to like, you know, Cosby, Newhart. I listened to their albums. And then, you know, Carol Burnett. That was my like, I loved comedy, but, and I used to, like, you know, Cosby, Newhart. I listened to their albums. And then, you know, Carol Burnett. That was my, like, I loved comedy, but I had only seen clean comedy as a kid because they wouldn't, you know, I couldn't listen to Carlin in my house. You know, there was...

Or Pryor. Pryor, Carlin. Even Steve Martin. It had a, you know, it had a language label on it, so it's not like I could listen to his album. So I would have to listen at my friend's house, you know. But Steve Martin was the dirtiest that I'd heard, you know. Then I went into the Boston clubs, so I would have to listen at my friend's house, you know? But Steve Martin was the dirtiest that I'd heard,

you know? Then I went into the Boston clubs and it was like, I was like, I gotta give stand-up a try and I went to Nick's on like a weekend.

I went to college in Boston. Yeah, so I went to Nick's and I mean, it's like, it looks like a strip club, you know,

in the 80s and Don Gavin gets up and he's like, what the fuck are you fucking, you know? And then, you know,

everybody, it was like, everyone in that scene, Leary and Crimmins. Meanie, Sweeney. Yep. And Seisler. I remember I went to then I went again and I saw Richie Seisler headline. It was like so hard edged. And I thought, you know, I wanted to be I wanted to wear like a blue blazer and do I wanted to do commentary.

And, you know, it just and I thought, oh, I guess I can't do stand up. It's not my thing. And so I, and then when I came to New York, then I found Gaffigan. He was a little, you know, he was low-key. And it wasn't like me, but it was, I was like, okay, look, there's people doing their own thing. You know, it wasn't all that same. And the thing is, Boston had that, had other people too.

Like, I just, I had never seen Stephen Wright. If I did, I did, he probably would have blown my mind. So then I started with Gaffigan in the open mic circuit and I thought, okay, maybe I can make a path for myself here.

Did you perform here open mic? When Gaffigan was doing Late Night? No, I did. You know, who was the guy that did... Rick Crome. Yeah, Crome.

I would do his show sometime, you know, because didn't he do a show where he played the piano and hosted? Yeah. Yeah, I would do that, right? And, you know, Rusty McGee, the late, great Rusty McGee, he was kind of like a Rick Crome type of guy. He played piano, and I used to do moon work with him. He didn't, I don't think he worked here, but I remember him.

Yeah, I think he did a long time ago. He was, like, friends with Lou Black, and he worked... He had a great bit about all the Jim Steinman songs and cliches. So great. He had great stuff. But I did a lot of variety. I did the West Bank Cafe, which Lou would do. That's what Lou Black did.

As I recall, Jim in the earlier days wasn't Mr. Clean. He had some dirty stuff. Was that a conscious financial decision to say, I'm going to to be clean this way I get the bigger market and I can perform for children and families

and religious people? I mean, I think to make it 100% clean it might have had that but he started going clean anyway as did I because it's just more

of his voice. You know what I mean? It was like, I used to swear and I remember it wasn't credible. You know what I mean? Back when we were doing, remember that hotel in Times Square?

Yes, the Doubletree. Doubletree? Yeah. Yeah, the Doubletree. Yeah, the Doubletree, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you, to survive, you had to, you had to just kind of play with the big boys. So you get, so I'd get up, and you just can't get up and be totally, I already look clean. I already look like a clean living guy, you know? So I would get up and I would just start, get up and be totally... I already look clean. I already look like a clean-living guy.

So I would get up, and I would just start... I would swear at the beginning just to establish credibility, and then I'd just go back to it. I think that was in your head. I think it was very real in your head that you felt you had to be dirty because everybody else was. But Ryan Hamilton, who works here, makes no effort whatsoever to be remotely dirty,

and nobody's thinking, who is this guy? I think it was in your head. It was, I'm sure. You wanted to be cool, maybe. You wanted to be like the, and nobody's thinking, who is this guy? You know, I think it was in your head. It was, I'm sure. You wanted to be cool, maybe. You wanted to be like the cool kids. Is it easier to get laughs, though, when you're dirty? Yes, of course it is.

Well, yes, it is. I think it is easier. I want to talk about your new book, because I'm a dad, and I just had a baby last... My wife just had a baby like 10 days ago. Oh, my gosh. That's fantastic.

Thank you. But before we go to the book, I have to ask you about the issue of the day, Bill Maher and the N-word. Yeah. What's your take on it? I don't know why we're – I mean, Dan and I used to say the N-word, you know, every day back then.

Everybody – I don't recall that. Listen, people use – I mean, you could – In the 90s. I might have done it if I were quoting somebody else. Yes, but the thing is, nobody got, it's like, you know, it's ridiculous. The whole thing is ridiculous.

It's absolutely, I mean, to even comment on just that, you know, that instance, it's like you can't even comment on it because the whole world is upside down. This world is ridiculous. Everyone is pretending to be offended by things. Well, some people are legitimately offended. They're not.

They're crazy. They're mentally, the thing is, it's as if we're drinking poison. Like, it's as if we all have a, you know, giardia,

you know, when you get the bug when you drink tainted water. It's like our country is drinking... Never had that pleasure. It's like tainted intellectual water.

Like, no one is being honest about anything. It's so ridiculous. Here's my take if you'd like to hear it. Yeah, of course. I look at it just... I look at it this way. If somebody is offended by it,

I'm not going to question their being offended. So, for example, the word Oriental, which we used to use to mean Asian people, it seems like, I mean, Asia's an entire continent.

It seems like Oriental is actually a better word. It's more specific. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, except all of a sudden one day everybody was offended by it. So I don't say it, because I don't want to offend people if they're going to be offended. I'm not going to question

their being offended. Would you not say it in a joke? Yeah, it depends on the context, but I generally say Asian. I've stopped saying oriental. Would you say the N-word in a joke? No, I wouldn't, but I did. I had a joke years ago with the N-word in it joke? No, I wouldn't, but I did.

I had a joke years ago with the N-word in it. That's what I'm saying, Dan. But it was not well received usually. But in the context of it. And I stopped doing it. It was funny because coming out of you and in the right context, and if you told it correctly, then you got a laugh. But you never knew.

Sometimes you get a laugh. Sometimes you wouldn't. Sometimes. Yeah, it's called a joke. Sometimes you don't get a laugh. That's never knew. Sometimes you get a laugh. Sometimes you wouldn't. It's called a joke. Sometimes you don't get a laugh. That's true, but sometimes people would be kind of outraged by it. Oh, thank you. So, if indeed the

black community is offended by Bill Maher's use of the word, then I'm not going to question whether they have the right to be offended. I'm going to accept that they're offended and say that Bill Maher should not use that word. Is it the black community that's offended, though, or is it the white liberal community? I really don't know. I would think that it would be more likely that it would be the latter. I haven't spoken to a whole lot of black people on the issue except for that guy, Wig, who wasn't offended.

It's the community that wants to control thought and control speech. It's a very terrible thing. And if there was ever a proper use of the N-word, it was Bill Maher. That was actually a good joke. It was improvised. It was in context. And the reason it was funny, it wouldn't have been funny if he used a different word. It was funny because it was irreverent, and he was responding to a question from the Republican senator.

And he said something weird to him. Working in the field. You'll have you out working in the field. Come working in the field. And it was just a weird thing. Senator. The thing is, everyone should shut up. We live in a very embarrassing time where adults are children.

It's really ridiculous. I've said that we live in a time where words matter more than actions. So true. And this, you know, you would think that at least part of the public discussion about this would be some inquiry into what really is the question that everybody ought to be wondering about is, what did he mean by it? Was there some racist intention in his heart? No, I don't think...

Because if it's a racist heart, that can be expressed without using the N-word, and it's serious, and it should be rejected. But just the uttering of those syllables cannot... That can't be the only increase. Like the criminal law, they do inquire into what was your intention when you hit somebody with a car.

Yes. And if it wasn't intentional, usually you don't even get punished. It was an accident, you know? You came out wrong, whatever it is. Nobody thinks Bill Maher's a racist. Well, people do think that,

obviously. People think he's a racist. How could anybody think he's a racist? People think he's a racist because they perceive him as Islamophobic, which they perceive

as a brand of racism. But let me tell you what I like about him. It's a brand. I like the brand. And I think you'll agree with me on this. You might say Islam is a religion, not a race. Be that as it may, he is considered racist by many, including Reza Aslan. This is what I like about it. Bill Maher is part and parcel

of the whole movement of calling everybody a racist all the time. I'm not saying you're a racist if you're a Republican, but if you're a racist, chances are you are a Republican. And how many times did Bill Maher ever cut anybody on the right, any slack for saying something that came out a little bit wrong or whatever it is? So he's kind of being hoisted on his own petard,

or at least the petard of his whole movement that he... Now, he is in certain, an outlier in that movement because he's been very, very blunt and powerful speaking against radical Islam and things like that. Anything that has to do with religion, all of a sudden, he's very brave about. But on issues of race, no. He's always told the line on issues of race,

and now it's come back to bite him in the ass, too. So I don't mind that. No, but in your particular case, it's not a worry. Do you agree with that? Well, I mean, I only mind it because I care more. It's true that I understand what people are doing. I understand that people on the right, when they froth at the mouth over Kathy Griffin for three days, I know what they're doing. I don't think they're sincere.

They're not sincere. They're not sincere. They're saying, look, I don't care. You've been doing it to us. We're going to do it to you. Right. We're not going to allow people to get fired from their job

if they're a talk radio host or something and you not get fired. So we're going to do the boycotts or whatever. That's why I say it's a very silly time. I don't think anyone's being sincere.

It's all about power. It's all about control. Controlling people through language, it's a very bad thing. I do think many black Americans are sincerely offended when a white person uses that word. I don't know how many or what

percentage, but some percentage are legitimately and honestly offended. And you may say they're irrational or rational, but I do believe they're sincerely offended. That's very dangerous because people can get offended. Ryan Hamilton told me the story. He did his hot air ballooning joke one day, and somebody was extremely offended.

Their grandfather and the whole family has been hot air ballooners, and they didn't like Ryan. That is the best. And they were outraged. That is so funny. So you can create, somebody can be offended by many, many things. You can be offended by an abortion, joke, anything. But you're not drawing a distinction. Let me finish.

The question is, do they have the right to be offended? Can they make the case why they have the right to be offended? Or do you just have to bow down? Well, you were offended, and you're black, so therefore, I can't say the word. I was addressed. Even if I'm making a joke, nothing racist about what I'm saying. It's a funny joke, and why can't you say, go fuck yourself? I'm sorry you're, nothing racist about what I'm saying. It's a funny joke. And why can't he say, go fuck yourself?

I'm sorry you're offended. Don't watch my show. I was addressing Tom's point that people are not sincere in their being offended. And indeed, they are sincere. Do you care? Should it matter if somebody's offended? If somebody is offended and I don't wish to offend them, then I won't say the word. I'm not condemning Bill Maher, but my personal choice is

it's not a word that I say in a public setting. I'm team Bill Maher on this one. Again, I'm not condemning the man, but it's not a choice that I make. It's not a word that I say. For those reasons, I don't want to offend and I don't want to... I don't swear on stage, but the thing is, I like some people who do. And the thing is, it's a terrible thing to start doing, try to control people's language. And here's why I think that they're insincere.

We can go back to Michael Richards when he was screaming in that comedy club. I think it was out in L.A., right? It was a laugh factory. Laugh factory, right? And the whole world was so, we all, he didn't owe the whole world an apology. He owed an apology to those guys he screamed at in the balcony. You know who owed the world an apology? The rest of the world.

The people who were playing that, I mean, the news was playing that stupid tape for five days in a row, nonstop. If it's so offensive to hear that word, why are you playing it on the news? Ratings. Yes, ratings. So here's the thing. It's not offensive to hear it. They love it. They want to celebrate that this guy did something, got himself in trouble. If it is damaging to our psyche as a nation to hear that word said over and over. Why did all channels and all of our homes were filled with that word for a week? They're a bunch of insincere liars.

They're not offended at all. It is ridiculous. Well, by that logic, then, you should never report on anything that anyone ever does that's fucked up because, you know, all the all that is to blame is the person. It is true. They should never report it. Why should news channels in the 60s have reported on people getting sprayed with hoses?

Why are we sprayed with hoses? I do feel it would be helpful to have a black perspective if we can find someone. Doubtful. Looking around the room and I don't necessarily see anybody that might join us. I want to speak to that because here's the thing. That was an incident that happened in a club. We have a club right here. If something happens in the club, it's, you know, he offended some people in the club. The thing is,

there was no reason to broadcast that. That should not have been a story. The story could have been Michael Richards had to apologize to patrons in a club. Okay, if you're interested in, you know, the police blotter of the comedy community, that's all you need to do. Playing a tape of him saying something offensive is, there's no excuse

for that. If it really is offensive to hear a man scream the N-word over and over, you should not be playing it on, you know, primetime television. I don't know if I agree with you. Because it can be a story that somebody did something offensive and you want to see

the offensive thing. Also, he wasn't making a joke. You know, like, it was pretty ugly what Michael Richards did. Well, he was attempting a joke. No, he was not even attempting a joke.

No, I think it was ugly. The thing is, it was ugly, which is why he owed those people in the club an apology. He ruined their night. But to see Kramer unmasked is news, you know? Well, I guess it's news, but the thing is, if the whole country were you and I, it'd be fine. You'd play it on the news and apology. He ruined their night. But to see Kramer unmasked is news, you know? Well, I guess it's news,

but the thing is, if the whole country were you and I, it'd be fine. You'd play it on the news and we'd be like, wow, that guy had a rough night. But this idea of this discussion of, oh, and are we offended?

It's like, no, we're the ones choosing to play it. We were the ones choosing to watch Donald Trump on that bus, like playing that tape over and over. You're like, that's not nice. It's like, there's a reason they cover porn at the, you know,

at the corner magazine store. Because we don't want women to have to look at asses in their face on the way to work. We just want to be polite. So why are we making all of America's women watch that Access Hollywood tape for a week? We're all a bunch of hypocrites. We're not as offended as we pretend to be. Absolutely. I coined a phrase, an indignagasm.

Which is indignation and orgasm together. coined a phrase, an indignagasm, which is indignation and orgasm together. Nothing feels better than an indignagasm. I coined a phrase, a grandfondler. That's the person who molested the person who molested you. We have with us Tony Darrow. Everybody better late than never. I didn't realize the theme was portmanteau. It was my fault, by the way, that Tony was late.

It's my responsibility. I assumed. So Tom has a new book out. What's the title of the book again? Mean Dads for a Better America. Now, Dan always disputes what I think you're going to agree with me, that being a father is the great joy of life. How would I dispute it?

I'm not a father. I just don't hear that from everybody. But introduce your book and tell us what it touches on. Don't you want to introduce Tony Darrow? Tony, you did. I didn't give him a befitting introduction. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Tony Darrow. Thank you.

Thank you so much. And Tony is very, very liberal. We've been trying to find somebody black to take the black point of view on the whole Bill Maher thing. Yeah. But we can't find anybody. So if you could just imitate a black guy, maybe. I'm halfway there anyway.

Tony is a southern Italian. Whether you want to imitate a black guy, maybe. I'm halfway there, anyway. Not really a white person. Southern Italian, whether you want to classify him as white or not. Well, I haven't got the DNA test back yet, so we'll know. I saw True Romance. Anyway, go ahead. That was like, I mean, talk about the repeated use of an N-word in an artistic context

that I think that we're all grateful for. Yeah, all Quentin Tarantino movies, right? Are we offended by them? Well, Denzel was. Well, Denzel was. Well, Denzel was ever since he did Crimson Tide. Let's stop the movies then. He actually, because Tarantino wrote part of that.

But then, of course, and I don't want to get back to it, but then, of course, if somebody does a picture of the Virgin Mary in Cow Dung, you have no right to be offended by that because that's a liberal cause. According to whom? According to what happened in New York City when Giuliani tried to not have public funding for the picture painted out of cow dung of the Virgin Mary. And people, of course, were offended. And there's been other examples. Or what's his name?

Mapplethorpe with the piss crisis. Mapplethorpe with the piss crisis. It wasn't Mapplethorpe. Andre Serrano, I believe. Serrano, Serrano, right. The piss crisis. I mean, is that less or more offensive than Bill Maher using the N-word in a joke?

I mean, it's just a matter of who's ox is gourd. And that's why it's all bullshit. And actually, I think people really were offended at seeing Jesus in urine. And I can understand them being offended. I don's why it's all bullshit. And actually, I think people really were offended at seeing Jesus in urine. And I can understand them being offended. I don't think people are really offended. Well, I certainly do think something. Unless they've just been programmed, you must be offended.

Anyway, so go ahead. Your book, Fatherhood. Fatherhood. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's an obligation. I think people ought to get off their ass and get married and have children. I think I'm sick of that. Get married and not have children. Get married and have children. Now, all people? You, Dan. ass and get married and have children. Not have children, get married and have children.

All people? You, Dan. You should get married. You should have children. Do you advocate this for all individuals? Or only individuals who have a DNA worthy of being transmitted? Not just DNA, but psychologically.

If you're a total jerk and a loser and an alcoholic, you know you shouldn't, but I think you should, Dan. Too late. I think you're a good guy. I think you'd make a great father, and I think it's high time you did it. But I'd say that to everybody. I don't tell Russ Meneve.

I think all these guys, they should have children. Why? Why should everyone have children? Why should everyone do anything? Because you should create life, and you should nurture a family. It's the only thing that makes your life worthwhile, I think. I mean, it's single people running around.

What are they doing? Eating dinner? How many dinners can you have? I think it's ridiculous. Well, people with children have dinner. Yes. No, I kind of... You may be right.

On the other hand, does the earth not have enough people? Are we lacking... Exactly. Aren't enough people going to procreate that we don't have to encourage it? America needs population. Yeah, I think everybody, like, okay, so maybe. We have 300 million people in this country. Everybody I know.

So have kids for your country? Yeah, exactly. I think so. We're verging on negative population growth and we're sustaining it through immigration. Yeah, we need kids. We need bigger families. We need people to get married. Yeah, look. We need bigger families. We need people to get married. So what Noam is saying, if I read him right, and I think I do, is we've got to keep the immigrants out.

No, that's not what I was saying. All right. We have to procreate faster than the immigrants. Is that what you're saying? I mean, that would be a happy byproduct. That wasn't my point. I don't know what you're saying. I don't know what the point is of thinking that everyone should have children.

I think a lot of people who have children shouldn't have children. I would say this, that immigration is a divisive issue. Okay, we're just putting words into your mouth. We're almost in a situation of replacing Americans one-to-one with somebody who was not born here. Speaking of fatherhood. But that's not the point about fatherhood. The point of fatherhood, I hope he's going to get to,

is what a joy it is and how fulfilling it is. I suppose. I don't know. Yeah, it is. Of course. It definitely is. Well, he doesn't sound joyous. Yeah, you don't sound joyous. To me, you're selling fatherhood

as an obligation. You look like you're looking for an excuse to get out of the house, as a matter of fact. You're grimacing right now. I think it is a joy and an obligation. You're looking for an excuse to get out of the house. You're grimacing right now. I think it is a joy and an obligation. It's an obligation and a joy. But Noam loves being a father more than anybody I've ever known,

and there's a couple of reasons for that. Hey, hey, hey. Well, do you love fatherhood? Of course. Okay. Yeah. I love it more. I think Noam loves it more.

You can't say that because I've done it longer. All right. You're a rookie. He's got – Tony has like a 30-year-old kid. Not your first kid, Noam. What's that? It's not your first kid. This is my third.

But you have to remember, Noam has certain... He's making up for Dan. Noam has certain resources wherein he can offset the... Financial? Labor intensiveness of fatherhood. Yeah. So that does make it more joyful. Not really.

We didn't have much money growing up. That's what I'm saying. We had five kids. We didn't have a lot of money. Well, I'd like to ask your parents how much they enjoyed it. They did. They enjoyed it. They told you that.

Yeah. Well, in the end, at their ripe old age, I think they can look back and think they did a good job. It's a little overstated, the idea of, oh, you can make ends meet. I mean, it's amazing how little money we spent growing up. We had nothing. We had hand-me-downs. It was fun for you.

It was a joy for you. But you didn't have to get up in the middle of the night. And it was easier back then also. A mailman could have a house and a family and a car. I just read something, I think maybe in the journal, that actually kind of punctures that myth a little bit, saying it's actually easier now, which seemed counterintuitive to me. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that. Well, what do you mean? Why is it easier now?

I mean, some things are easier. I mean, it's easier to get groceries delivered. We do all the time. You know, we have so many amazing things. You can order things through, you know, Alexa. You can just announce what you want, and it comes to your door. The article said that, I'll find it said that people are actually wealthier now. Our standard of living is higher now than it was then.

They might be wealthier. If you wanted to live like your parents did in the 50s and 60s, it'd be very, very easy to do now. No way. This is what the article said. The article's wrong. Now parents want to send their kids to fancy classes all the time. There's all these new...

There's more pressure. It is true. They're looking at a very narrow segment of the population. It's not true at all. And it's much more expensive. I mean, I was a teenager. I could support myself. I go out and get a job, get an apartment.

You can't do that today. What did you do as a teenager to support yourself? Well, get a job. Get a job doing anything. It was easier to get a job then for young kids. They could get a job anywhere. When I was young, you could get a job anywhere. My gut agrees with you. You could save the YMCA for $25 a week, which I did.

I remember my friends in high school would be working at Friendly's or whatever, but things are not always as they appear, and the article seemed pretty credible anyway what what are the takeaway lessons of this is it's more of a biography is that what this is it is it's a it's a it is a memoir of sorts but they're stories it's just stories i start yeah i went in chronological order because it helps the story but it's stories about growing up and i say mean dads it's kind of it's all tongue-in-cheek it's funny stories from growing up. My dad, my brother and I were kind of scared of our dad. He was a scary guy. He was a disciplinarian.

Did he hit you? No, but we thought he might. We stayed in line because he used to, I would say he'd reach for the belt, but he never took it off. He never pulled the belt out. No. You never caught on. No, really. I think he's bluffing. No, no, he's going to do it.

Maybe you guys are just cowards.. I think he's bluffing. No, no, he's going to do it. That's the thing. Maybe you guys are just cowards. You ever think about that? Exactly. But I don't have, I mean, I want a little of what my dad had because we're, you know, raising kids. And I couldn't reach for the belt. They would laugh. You know, they know I'm not going to do it.

But I do have a little, I have a little bit of the mean dad in me. I'm the mean dad in my neighborhood, you know, and it's probably because of my dad because I think it's worthwhile. Well, in what sense are you mean? Well, I'm more... He beats them. No, I mean I'm... He uses a belt. I don't mind, you know, I like depriving them of things. If they do something wrong, I like taking something away. I like punishment. You know, it's funny because... Like what?

What kind of punishment? Why do you enjoy that? I enjoy it because it's a great way to raise kids. If they make a mistake, if they do something wrong, if they don't listen to me, I like there to be consequences because there are consequences in life, so I think it's good. I think growing up with the kind of consequences that if you misbehave, you are punished, I think that's a good thing.

I don't mind bad feelings for a while if someone learns a lesson, that kind of thing. I can't be as mean as my dad. I wish I could be a little meaner. And I wish we lived in a world that had more consequences. Well, I think people were meaner back then in general because life was hard. You know, you were me. You grew up in the Depression.

You were going to be mean. Yes. If you endured. Or they said I did. I mean, now I think we have it easy. We're just not as mean. I mean, my grandfather was never happy, if memory serves. Yes.

Because I think his life was just tough. Life was tougher, yeah. This is what... By the way, have you read... Exactly this. You read Judith Rich Harris? Is that her name? Judith Rich Harris or Charles Murray

recently about all these? Yes. Essentially saying that this is all bull. It's all in your genes. You're going to come out the way you're going to come out. And whatever the environment does, it's more your peer groups and your socialization

outside the home which really contribute to it. And a lot of it is just confirmation bias and rationalization. So you had a grandfather who was always... If you're abused as a child,

that doesn't affect you? Trauma is the one exception. But you had a grandfather who was always unhappy. He seemed that way. And miraculously, you had a grandfather who was always unhappy. He seemed that way. And miraculously, he has a grandson who's always unhappy. You know, that's an interesting point. And Charles Martin was like, well, obviously there's an unhappiness gene that passes down his family.

No, he had a tough life. No, it's just unhappiness in your family. No, that's not true. Maybe he was unhappy when Dan was around. He also seemed very... No, but I'm unhappy, but in a way... But there's lightness. There's gaiety, if I may take back that word.

There's a gayness to me. But there's a lot... Even with the unhappiness. There's a lot of stunning science now, especially research by taking identical twins who were separated at birth, raised apart with wildly different upbringings,

and when all is said and done, they have the same personality types, kind of the same moral compass, same interests, same tastes and clothing. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm fascinated by that. I'm fascinated to see those stories, but I feel like I was so...

I'm such a product of my upbringing and surrounding and the culture at large and everything that, you know, to me it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's a fascinating idea. I feel the same way. It feels wrong? Yeah. But you're using the example, I mean, out of how many twins have they found? I mean, what is the percentage?

No, they've said hundreds of pairs. You're saying that you don't believe that people that grew up in the Depression or in war zones are necessarily less happy. Well, I'll say this. I've known people who had terrible lots in life, you know, chronic illnesses, terminal illnesses. I had two people in mind who were just always happy and cheerful. And I remember thinking, how can you be happy and cheerful? I mean, if I were in your situation, I wouldn't even get out of bed.

And I could only attribute it to a happy disposition, a sunny disposition. But you don't know how you would react in that situation. I'm just saying that... Well, no, I think...

Could be the drugs. I think, but can't we both be right? Can't there be a happiness gene or genes and also childhood circumstances playing a role? Absolutely. And I also think it's a muscle.

I feel like I am definitely of a sunny disposition. I'm generally a positive person. But it's because I feel like it's a muscle that has to be worked. Just like willpower is a muscle that has to be worked. I feel like I am aggressively happy. You know what I mean? I work on it. You know what I mean? I work on it. You know what I mean? And I tend to ignore negativity, and I push it aside, but I do it consciously.

It's like, no, I'm not going to look at that. Are these traits that were present in your family? Probably, yeah. You know, it's like soldier on, look at the positive, ignore the negative. There's another layer to what you're saying, and I've experienced it because I've raised a son who was not my biological son. Who's not in the will. And he's 23. By the way, have you let him out of the basement yet?

He's 23 years old now, and he has nothing about me in this shot. There's nothing about my personality, nothing about the way I look at things, no lesson that I've been able to teach him. I mean, clearly he is not my son. Right. Yet he grew up in my home.

Nevertheless, my four and five-year-old children have already begun to internalize certain kind of things that I've tried to teach them with punishment or whatever it is. Yeah. Almost as if they were ready to easily get where I was coming from, understand it, internalize it,

almost like it was there ready to be activated. It was there genetically. I gave it to them. I imprinted on it. But if they hadn't had my genes in my own little anecdotal experiment like my first son Nicholas, it wouldn't have taken. It's this weird thing. So then maybe all these fathers who get women pregnant and then disappear, maybe they do it because their father did it.

Maybe there's something in their genes. Is that what you're saying? I knew you would take it. I'm not saying that. But I mean, that sounds like what you're saying. I don't know the answer to that. I don't think that's the case. People do this all the time. I'll tell what I told my son. I told my son the exact

opposite of what you're saying. When he got married and they were... Are you a granddad? No, not that I know of. When he got married, I told him, it's probably a terrible thing for a father to tell his son, but I told him

there's no rule that you guys have to have kids. You could have money. But their lifestyle is they'll drive to Maine on the weekend. They live in the city. But I don't... They're in their early 30s.

And I think if you really want to have kids, I don't think you should feel compelled to have kids. I think you should want to have kids. I think you really want to have kids, you know, I don't think you should feel compelled to have kids. I think you should want to have kids. I mean, I think you should want to. I think I always wanted to be a father. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a father. You look like a father.

Oh, thank you. You remind me of the father in The Wonder Years. A big barrel-y. You know what, Tony? I get that a lot, actually. Nobody that barrel-y cannot be a father. You know what Tony does? What do I do?

It annoys me. Uh-oh. But a lot of people do this. And you're ilk. You know what Tony does? It annoys me. But a lot of people do this. And you're ilk. Everybody on the left does this. And I think Tom will agree. I try to keep an open mind about everything. Do you? So I read a book by Judith

Rich Harris. Is that her name? Anyway, I send it to you. And also stuff that Charles Murray has written. And these are smart people doing a lot of research. It's backed up. People have tried to refute it, and they defend it very ably. And I say to myself, you know, I can't just dismiss this.

Let me think about this. So I bring it up in conversations. And people will immediately spin it out, try to find some way that it could be racist, tar me as if I came up with it and just dismiss it. He just did none of that. Yes, exactly.

He's just not smart enough to understand what you were saying. He was saying that therefore I'm saying that blacks are genetically predisposed. That's not what I said. Why that? Maybe you're the one who takes shit and spins it that therefore I'm saying that blacks are genetically predisposed. No, that's not what I said. I did not say that. Why that? Did I say that?

Maybe you're the one who takes shit and spins it around. Then what were you saying? Wait a second. You're an impartial observer. I didn't hear that. I defy you all. Then what were you saying when you're saying was that why certain people have children,

father children, and don't stay at home? No, what I'm asking you is... What segment of our population in this country has that issue in spades right now? All right, Mr. Marr. Has that issue seriously right now? You have situations in the inner city

where upwards of 90% of children are being born without fathers, right? That's why I'm asking you the question. Are you saying that's why? Yes, so you were saying what I'm saying you're saying. No, I'm asking you. No, he's asking a question. Yes. Is that what you're interpreting it as?

I'm not saying you are. Okay, you. So you acknowledge at least that's what he was implying. No, implying what? All right, whatever. He wasn't implying anything. He was asking a question. You're all phonies and you're all cowards.

What are you talking about? We're asking you a question. I'm just asking if you think that's what it means. Yeah, but you're putting me on the spot. I don't know the answer to that. Okay, that's fine. Let's spit it out. What if I said yes, I think that's what it means?

Racist. Exactly. That's my point. You're asking me a question which really I can only answer one way. No, what I would say is if you did believe that, no, I would have said it. If you did believe that, I would say then, well, then we should be helping these people because it's not their fault. Yes, but I don't believe that's the case. I think that...

As a society. I think that trauma... Someone once said it takes a village. I don't know. If you take a seed and you plant that seed, it needs a certain amount of water and a certain amount of sunlight and a certain amount of nutrients in the soil to become the tree that it's supposed to be. Right.

And once it has that amount of nutrients that it needs, it's going to grow to be that tree. And if you can triple the amount of nutrients, you're really not going to get much of a taller tree. It grows to its potential when it has the baseline requirements. If you give it less than it needs

then you do see the results of a kind of a traumatic development and I think that's what humans are. I think they need a father. They need a mother. They need sunlight. They need rain. But if they have it

they grow up to be the people they're meant to be. When I was a kid living in the Bronx there was a man who had his, it was two family houses, whatever. And there was this tree on the street, this weak little tree that we used to make fun of. Every time we went near it, he'd come out screaming and yelling at us. And he always had like this metal post next to it.

And it was like, you know, it was a joke. It was a joke on the block. And eventually, after all these years, this guy just took care of this tree. Eventually, it grew big and strong. And that's what being a parent is. Yes. You know, you take care of something. You nurture it until it grows strong on its own.

And that's it. I think that's true. I want to get, you know, the – Tony should read my book. I think Tony read that tree story. But everybody, the thing is, I got to come back later, okay? And everybody has to read the book. I want everyone to read the book.

We could discuss stuff in the book, in my book. It would be the launching pad for a number of great discussions. I will read it. I promise you. Tell us one story. No, I mean, I'm not thinking of any specific thing, but the thing is that I don't know if we have to sandwich my book into

discussions because I don't need to be plugging it. It's great to plug. I've been plugging the book for days. This is my favorite topic is fatherhood right now. It's fantastic, but I think in general, the first part of the book is all about the idea it's poking fun of the way I grew up and I think that

we could learn something. Was your father a writer? Yeah, he was. But I... He would write poetry. He was college educated. He was like a smart guy, but he kept it to himself. But he would write poetry and sometimes I would see some of his poems and things

like that. But he loved Shakespeare and great books and things like that. He loved musicals. He used to force me to watch Kiss Me, his poems and things like that. But he loved Shakespeare and great books and things like that. He loved musicals. He used to force me to watch Kiss Me, Kate and musicals like that. Wait a minute, wait a minute. What about your other father? Wait a second here. You walked into that one.

Exactly. But he would enforce what I watched on TV. And, you know, he watched Jimmy Cagney movies and, you know, South Pacific and things like that. He loved all the old entertainment. So, you know, he would police my TV watching. I was just talking. Who the heck was that? Oh, I was at Oncumia's show.

And he was talking about his parents took him to Bonnie and Clyde at the drive-in. And he was traumatized because they got shot up and he threw up. He was eating all the junk food and he vomited after watching Bonnie and Clyde at the drive-in. And he was traumatized because they got shot up. And he threw up. He was eating all the junk food. And he vomited after watching Bonnie and Clyde as a kid. He was seven years old. And I said, my dad wouldn't let me watch Bonnie and Clyde when I was like 14. He wouldn't even let it on the TV. And it wasn't the violence.

It was the fact that Bonnie and Clyde were portrayed sympathetically. That the bad guys were the good guys. He didn't believe in that anti-hero thing. That the cops were the bad guys and the robbers were the good guys. So he didn't believe in that. It was a big thing in the 70s, so he would police my TV viewing in that way. So you didn't see The Godfather? No, I didn't.

No, we, I mean, it didn't seem much. We used to watch Carol Burnett and, you know, it was like, you know, mostly family TV and things like that. My father took me to see Straw Dogs with that horrible rape scene in a movie theater in Times Square when I was eight years old. And I remember the woman in the box office fighting with him, not wanting to let him take me into the movie. And my father's screaming at the lady because it was R and he had the right to take me in. And it didn't affect me.

But you're talking about it right now. Obviously, you remember it. I remember a lot. I remember going to Palisades Park, too. I mean, what are you talking about? I'm just saying that. Do you remember Freedomland? No.

They tore it down and built co-ops. It's just an interesting. Like, I don't let my kids see. Like, there's something in us that's like, I don't want them to see that. I don't want them to see this. I don't want them to see this. But then I think it's probably just in our heads. I think it probably doesn't matter what they see. Who knows?

Who knows? Oh, I think it does. I think it's, you know, I think you, like I said, I mean, Anthony, you know, he's telling me he was traumatized by watching these people get shot. And he was like, I can't believe my parents brought me to that at that young age. You know, they didn't really think of it. But I mean, I... He'd be a bad poster child for the point I'm trying to make.

Yeah. But I police my children's viewing. But they watch the Disney Channel. But there are certain Disney Channel shows I don't like. And I'm like, you're not going to watch that show. I don't like the way the kids talk to each other.

It's like, you know, I'm fine with making decisions. I'm like, no, none of that. You know, you can't watch that. You can watch that. You know, I believe in that. How old is your youngest? Seven. So I got 11 and seven. So will you can watch that. You know, I believe in that. How old is your youngest? Seven.

So I got 11 and seven. So will you take them to see the new Wonder Woman movie? No. No, but just, you know, no reason. There's so much, you know, maybe if it were, but, you know. My daughter's dying to see it. I basically say no to that. But, you know, there's so much great children's entertainment.

You know, we go to the movies like once every two weeks. And, you know, Boss Baby, yeah, we'll go to see that. We saw Captain Underpants yesterday. Oh, yeah. And Star Wars. They love Star Wars, so I take them to all the Star Wars. You took them to the one where Kylo Ren kills his dad? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's all... If they're heavily into it, it's not just... They just don't... And maybe Wonder Woman's fine. It's just it's not on my to-do list, you know. But I don't mind, you know. That one you're going to see on your own, aren't you? Exactly.

I probably won't, but I'm not that into, you know, live action superhero stuff. But I kind of like the Star Wars thing. And it's so rich that you can talk about it. You can talk about all the Star Wars characters. And so that, you know, that's a murder. Like the son murders his father. It's very surprising. But I think

we talk a lot about the Star Wars universe. It's a fable. There's a morality play. Well, Luke killed his father, too. Yeah, I mean, it's all... I love Star Wars. And to me, there's nothing bad about it. It really is about good, the struggle of good versus evil, and I love all Wars. To me, there's nothing bad about it. It really is about

good, the struggle of good versus evil, and I love all that stuff. How do you explain death to a child? How do your parents explain death to you, Dan? I forgot, but I remember it was very traumatic. Then my parents told me, but it won't happen for a long time, which is a lie, because this shit goes

fast. What they should have said is it'll happen, it'll go slow until you're about 25 and then after that it's a blur. I think it's... You know what I mean?

They should have got a laugh, Dan. We should have laughed at that. They should have said it will happen. You'll get the first 25 years it'll be nice and easy and then after that it's a fucking drag race

to the grave. I've been telling my kids not to worry about it. Didn't they, parents and grandparents always tell you, my grandparents, never get old. I always thought it was their way of promoting teen suicide. My grandparents. Exactly. Never get old.

Have your children asked you about what it means to die? They don't have to ask. They've been going to funerals since they were babies. So what do you tell them? Because I don't know what to tell my kids. I don't know what to tell them. Well going to funerals since they were babies. So what do you tell them? Because I don't know what to tell my kids. I don't know what to tell them. Well, it's very simple when you're Catholic. I mean, people have a soul.

They die. They move on. You know, it's not a difficult concept for kids. I understood death when I was a kid, and I would go to funerals when I was an altar boy. You sugarcoated with religion. Yeah, you really touched on it. I actually believe it, you dummy. Yeah, I believe people have a soul, so I believe that.

So it's easy to pass that on to people. Where does your soul go when you're under propofol for a colonoscopy? Let me ask you this. What do you tell your 7-year-old when he or she... She, they're both she. When she asks you, where does an unbaptized Jewish guy go after he dies? I mean, listen, we love the Jews. We talk about the Jews all the time because we're in Riverdale, you know?

So they don't ask that. They don't. That's a tougher question. That's a tougher answer. You know what you say to Manny? I got to tell you what you say to Manny. You say, life is full of pain and suffering, and it's over much too quickly, and I'm sorry I brought you into the world.

Pass the pizza. What I've been telling them, because I'm not religious, but somehow my children are talking about God all the time, and I don't tell them that I don't believe in God. Do you think Dan should have a child, though? Yeah. Even though he doesn't want a child, I think it's his obligation that he should have a child.

The thing is, he doesn't know what he wants. He's an idiot because he's a single man. And so all of these dumb single guys should have a kid. You should get married. You should have a kid. You will have tremendous joy. You'll pass that on to your kids. And it's...

I don't want somebody that one day will be like, oh, fuck, I got to go see dad today. And what, that's your kid? At some point, every kid is going to turn on you. Well, it's fine. Because you're not fun anymore, and they got their own lives. Well, that's it. I mean, I have my own life.

I don't see my dad that much. I mean, I praise the guy in a book, but I mean, I don't get on the phone with him all the time. What do you mean, turn on him? They're not turning on him. He just has unfounded worries. Consider him a hindrance. Too many Harry Chapin songs. You consider him like something that is not a cause of joy.

No. Why is that automatic? Well, because your parents get old, it's sad. Yeah, but you're still glad to see them. I'm glad to see them, but it's sad. You think that happens with everyone? I don't know, does it? You tell me. I don't know.

It didn't happen with Noam and Manny. I'm sorry. His unhappiness through the Natterman lineage. That's my point. So getting back... But he has added a little joy to his life because he's a comedian. So he's fighting the forces of darkness. You know he sees the world in a dark way.

He tends to be a negative person, Dan. He always has. I'm a negative Nelly. Yes. But I think the thing is, it's like, I could just plead with Dan and tell him that, you know, you can say, oh, this joy and that joy. That's why I don't speak in terms of joy.

It's like, just shut up. Get married. Have a kid. You'll figure it out later. It's like, I'm not going to sell you on it. That's why I use the word obligation. It's like, just go do it. It's embarrassing how old these people are getting. Russ Beniv and, you know, Dan. You're right. It's like are getting. Russ Beniv and, you know, Dan. You're absolutely correct. It's like, stop.

Russ Beniv is a catch and a half. I mean, the guy, look at this. When he smiles at you, you just melt. Your father would have liked him. And he's a good guy. And look, Russ would be, I mean, and will be, I can only hope, a great dad. And it's your obligation to pass that on to the next generation. I believe it.

Can I say one more thing about fatherhood? Then I want to ask you something else about foxes. I've said this before. And I've likened it to a puppy. You throw it in water and all of a sudden it starts to do a dog paddle. Now this puppy never knew and would have never expressed that behavior, has no way of knowing that in its brain is a full section devoted to swimming. Yeah.

That's what fatherhood is. You become a father, and all of a sudden you are activated to instincts and behaviors you never knew were instincts. It's the greatest analogy I've ever heard. Oh, thank you. It is so good. Did you hear that, Dan? I thought the greatest analogy. And that's why it's hard to explain to somebody else,

because I was trying to talk to a puppy who's never been in the water. I'm like, dude, it's great. You're, you know. Well, but again, you talk about fatherhood in more glorious terms than most folks that I've spoken with. Well, you don't need the glorious terms, Dan. I'm just saying. You don't even have to be a happy dad.

I'm telling you, you just have to go be a dad. Just do it. Tom is coming at it from a different point of view. Tom is saying, be a dad because that's why we're on this planet, to be dads. You're saying be a dad because it's oh so joyful. That's two different points of view. Hopefully those are actually two different ways of saying the same thing. My reason's better because you just have to do it.

Tom's not saying that at all. No one needs to buy his argument. I'm not even making an argument. I'm just saying you have to do it, so go do it. Tom is old school Catholic. This is what we do. Yes. That's it. You don't question. Yours is not to question. Why? Yours is but to do it. Tom is old school Catholic. This is what we do. That's it.

You don't question. Yours is not to question why. Yours is but to do or die. All right. No mistake. I have a question, actually, about that. Are you sympathetic to the people who never want to have kids, who are annoyed as hell when people who do have kids say,

oh, just wait, just wait. It's going to happen for you, and you'll believe me. Believe me. It's going to happen for you and you'll believe me. Believe me, it's going to happen and you're going to enjoy it. When the entire time they're sitting there thinking, what the fuck is this person

talking to me about this for? Again, I've had this happen for 20 years. Yes, I guess I have sympathy for them. That's why they'd probably like me because I'm like,

you know, it's like, here's my advice, do it or shut up or whatever. But like, I think they're clueless. I think these, you know,

these aging single people are, I think they're a little sad. I think these aging single people are a little sad. It is sad. You know why it's sad? It's sad because I haven't succeeded more. Is Bill Maher sad? I give you it's sad. Bill Maher is much sadder.

He's pathetic. Do you concur? Look at his face. They all look the same. There's this face of an old play same. He and Hugh Hefner. There's this face of an old playboy. You know who never had kids? There's something terrible about it. I'll tell you something.

You know who never had kids? Who? George Washington. George Washington never had kids. The father of our country. Father of our country. But now maybe you could say, well, what he did was so much great. Is it possible in your mind to do something so great that having kids is not necessary to justify your existence?

You know what's funny, Dan? You did silence me there. And also, there might be a point in the book where I think I might have even mentioned George Washington and his kids or something. Because I think I compared my dad. I was comparing my dad to the founding fathers. And I was like, I bet my dad was just as... I bet George Washington and his kids were just as scared of him. Fact check.

What am I going to do? He should be talking. What am I going to do? He did have a country. And then there are other presidents who did have kids and who were completely miserable. I have a couple other questions

before we finish. Fox News. Was Red Eye being canceled related to Roger Ailes' being taken out? No, no, it was not. Although, if Roger was still there, who knows, because he would have been totally in charge. That's what I think, because he kind of championed you guys, didn't he? He did. He loved it, but everybody did too. And the people who canceled our show loved it. I mean, the short answer, I think the two-word answer to people who are mourning the death of Red Eye. And the thing is, I kind of like the mourning because it shows how much they were attached to it.

And so here's the thing. The word is live coverage. Live coverage. They are moving, as a lot of cable news is, coverage live coverage they are moving as a lot of cable news is to live coverage and Red Eye was always it occupied an interesting space at Fox News because you had these big heavy hitters who got huge ratings

would pre-tape their shows at 4, 5, 6 o'clock you know, O'Reilly and 9 o'clock 10 o'clock, they were pre-taped shows that's the way they did it, I mean they're big stars they want to go home to their families, things like that. So a lot of big stars pre-tape their shows. Fox News knows the future of news is live. News is moving faster and faster and faster.

So they wanted to go live. They saw the opportunity. Most of their prime time is live now. 8 o'clock is live. 9 o'clock is live. We taped at 8 o'clock. Red Eye was basically using crews that were left over from the primetime shows. Now they're not there.

So we got pushed out. It's not that the thing is we almost doubled our ratings. Yes. I mean, ratings were almost double from when I took over the show. We were doing fabulously. People are mourning it. But the thing is I'm going to rebuild it. I'm now in radio on Fox News.

I'm doing radio. I'm going to do digital. I want to take over a little digital space, and then we had half a million viewers. Which is a lot. Yes, it's a lot. For three in the morning, it was huge. But you don't think I can get half a million viewers for a digital show? I think I can.

I have no idea, but... I think I can rebuild it. It's my responsibility. The thing is, they made their decision. I was sad to have it go, but I'm still there, but I think I can rebuild it. So it's my responsibility. The thing is, they made their decision. I was sad to have it go, but I'm still there. And I think we can build a digital project that is like Red Eye. But essentially, I think if people can understand that, the word live coverage, that's what means everything. And the fact that we were taping at 8, 8 to 9 every day. Right now, what's going on at Fox News from 8 to 10 is all those crews that used to help shoot our show,

they're shooting live, massive, massive, big-budget shows. I think Fox News made a big mistake. I don't know. Exaggerated, but I think Fox News made a mistake canceling Red Eye. I do, yes, of course. I absolutely do. I mean, people will, because you're self-interested,

but I think you're right. And I think that Ailes kind of understood this magic formula that Red Eye was one part of, which was an overall thing that Fox was, which its fans loved. Yes. And now that's gone. And then also, like, just maybe it's not fair. Like, this first show,

this first post-Ales show, the specialists, I think, I'm like, this, I can't watch it. It's the first new show that's been on Fox. Really? That I can't get through five minutes of it. Oh, I mean, I've been watching it, and I think it's good. I'm doing it this week. I'm doing it Friday. And so, I'll give you my report

on how it feels to be there, but I think it's doing well. The ratings are good. They are good? Yeah. This guy, Eric Bolling, I mean, I don't want to put you on his spot, but I just feel like he's great. No, I don't feel that way. He's got two shows.

He's got a weekend show that does great, and I used to love doing The Five with him. You know, he was closer to my politics a lot than some of the other people, and I'm so friendly with Greg and Dana. They're like personal friends of mine. I love, but, you know. Perfect example. Gutfeld is a big talent.

Huge. Would the powers that be at Fox News now have the depth to have recognized Gutfeld as a great talent? Because Ailes got him. And that's what's interesting to me. Ailes had that insight. Yeah. And it doesn't, and Eric Bolling may be all right, but Gutfeld is special.

Oh, I mean, to me, he's the greatest. And he's responsible for me. You know, he got me in there. He helped me. And then, you know, we did a thing. I mean, the guys, he's the best. I love him to death. And Ailes, one after another, he picked these guys.

Even when it kind of got. Well, he was a genius. Even when Frank the Monster, like, I was named Glenn Beck, who was kind of like... Yeah. It went crazy. But even still, Ailes saw... Absolutely. Absolutely.

That Beck had something. I don't like Glenn Beck. I'm just saying he clearly, he touched a chord with people. He is a great TV guy. I mean, he could monologue. I mean, do you watch him? I used to watch his show at five. He can...

He had such a connection. The way he would look in the camera and talk right to people. He's like a master. He was great. He plays a little crazy, I think. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, but aren't the great, you know, so was Judy Garland, and she's riveting to watch.

All right. Anyway. But Ailes was a genius and a rare, I mean, like a once-in-a-century kind of genius. He was the Hitchcock of cable news. And Hitchcock was known to be roping his leading woman, too. No, no. What I mean is his vision.

His vision. Well, they go together. And he loved comics. He loved comedians. He was the booker for Mike Douglas. He was the comedy booker for Mike Douglas. I didn't know that. He was a comedy booker in the 70s.

And I'm sure you know, but our listeners should maybe go listen to it, how beautifully Shepard Smith spoke about how Roger Ailes accepted him and his partner and no anti-homosexual animus at all, which everybody would, shallow people would assume, you know, the head of Fox News must be a gay basher. No way. Listen, everyone's got to go. All you got to do is search Shepard Smith eulogy for Roger Ailes.

It's one of the greatest things I've ever seen on television. It was beautiful. Shepard is amazing. Shepard has Glenn Beck-like talent. The way he can just connect.

And he winged that. You know, Shepard doesn't, he can wing things. He can just sit and look into the lens of a camera and he can talk.

And that is like, what was it, a 15-minute speech? It's amazing. I made my wife watch it. I was like, you have to watch this. She sat down and watched it on her iPad. She was bawling her eyes speech? It's amazing. I made my wife watch it. I was like, you have to watch this. She sat down and watched it on her iPad. She was bawling her eyes out.

It's amazing. You might like this. My father died like 15 years ago, but I remember he said to me about Shepard Smith. He says, I like Shepard Smith. He says, I enjoy the music that comes out of his mouth when he speaks. He enjoyed the music that comes out of his mouth when he speaks. He felt there was just something about the way he spoke that reminded him of music.

And my father was not a flaky guy. I bet you anything. Is he a musician, your dad? Yeah, he was a musician. Yeah, that's it. And I bet you anything that Shepard Smith is a musician. I bet he's a drummer or something because he has a rhythm to talking. If he's not a musician, actually, he's got musical talent.

The name of the book, if I may sum, is Mean Dads for a Better America, the Generous Awards of an Old-Fashioned Childhood. The theme of this book, I guess, is that old-fashioned, strict childhoods are the best.

Noam disagrees. Noam believes that short of molesting your kid, basically, it's going to turn out the way it's going to turn out. DNA is king.

I don't know. I'm just saying that there's pretty... I'll send you the link to this book. I don't know. I'm just saying that there's pretty... I'll send you the link to this book. Oh, I know. I love Murray, but I don't understand all his charts and graphs. But as a philosopher, he is one of the greats. Read Judith Rich Harris, because she really wrote the definitive book on this line of thought.

It's pretty convincing. My feeling, of course, is that they're both right and they're both wrong, obviously. Nature and nurture both have a role to play. We want to thank Tom. He revealed some very interesting things about his own life and his father and how his father struggled with his sexuality at a time that was... He loved musicals. He loved Jimmy Cagney. And he would make me watch all of the great musicals,

which is why I'm a great appreciator of musicals. We thank the ever-provocative Tony Darrow, who had to leave to do a set. Tony, the liberal foil that enjoys a good sparring with Noam. Stephen Calabria of course. Wrap it up, Dan. This is a

long-winded exit. And we'll see you next time. Next week we'll discuss, I'm sure, a lot of the same topics, because that's what we do here. Good night, everybody.