The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Trans Athletes, Zionism & Rock n' Roll

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Eve Barlow

this is live from the table the official official podcast of New York's world-famous comedy seller coming at you on SiriusXM 99 Raw Dog. And on the Laugh Button Podcast Network, this is Dan Natterman. I'm here with Periel Ashenbrand, the producer and on-air personality. Things just evolved in that direction. Not intentionally.

We also have Noam Dorman with us, the owner of the world-famous Comedy Cellar, now back seven nights a week, multiple shows every night. Get your tickets and showtime information at Comedy Cellar. Is it ComedyCellar.com, Noam, or USAComedyCellar.com?

ComedyCellar.com. ComedyCellar.com. Also follow on Instagram at US, what is it again? US Comedy Cellar. ComedyCellarUSA. ComedyCellarUSA.com. I should have at U S what is it again? The U S comedy seller. I mean, so USA comedy tell the USA doc, I should have this info on the tips of my fingers.

Anyway, a jam packed show. We have tonight. Eve Barlow will be joining us in, in about 15, 20 minutes. No. And by the way,

I'm doing the on Sunday, I'm making my mint debut on the mint show that we do. We have live streaming comedy coming at you on Mint Comedy. And you can get your tickets at mintcomedy.com, M-I-N-T comedy.com. I'll be doing the show this Sunday. It's live streamed. It's like you're really there. How's the Mint comedy going, though?

Well, I mean, just to be clear, this is not my, I'm just, you know, I'm just. You're providing the venue. I'm just providing the venue as a act of friendship to the guy who runs it, who's a friend of mine. But it seems to be doing very, very well. The numbers are the streaming numbers are significant. I mean, that's interesting to me because we've always sort of assumed that comedy was a live kind of sport and that it would necessarily translate. This is like a live,

I mean, this is a three camera shoot. HD. It looks like a TV show. It doesn't look like a zoom show or something. It actually looks like a TV show. I watched it last night. They'd have the Jeff Ross's roast battle.

And it was mint on mint. Yeah. Okay. And it was very close to a Comedy Central looking show. I mean, maybe they'll start doing special events, you know, like specials or something. I don't know.

I could go in that direction. I mean, it's great. Hopefully it'll be a great source of income for the comedians and everything. Yeah, well, that would be why we could always use some income. You know, that's Income is good. I'm tired. I've been out in the sun all day.

Today, my daughter... She graduated high school. No, I mean elementary school. It's called a moving up ceremony. Yes, that's George and Wheezy. Yeah, the moving on up ceremony. Very good.

We're there. She's moving up, meaning she's moving from the elementary division of the school to the middle school. Which is the same school, though. Is that what it is? No, it's a different building altogether. Okay. But it happens to be the school that I went to. So she's starting school in the the school that I went to. So she's starting school in the same school that I that I went to.

I mean, needless to say, the faculty that that was there when you were there are not likely still. Of this world, there was a guy there until recently, because I was up until like two years ago. My my math teacher, Mr. Tina, was still teaching, but no more. Well, he must have been. I mean, how was he possibly still teaching? Well, he was young when I had him, and he's old when he left. He must have been like 25 when you had him, and like 70. I mean, he's been back quite some years.

I graduated in 80, so I figured he was 40 years later. So 25 and 65. Okay. Or even 30 and 70 70 i guess that checks um by the way i want to take before before eve comes on i want there is a something of significance in uh in the news that i thought would be a particular interest to you know when i sent you the article about um about the weightlifter who qualified the feet. Well, let me just get you the story here. It's New Zealand.

43-year-old New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will be competing in the upcoming summer games in Tokyo as the first trans woman athlete to compete in an olympic games yeah and she in order to qualify she had to they had to test her to make sure her testosterone levels were below whatever number that the international olympic committee requires and she was a weightlifter as a male and transitioned in her 30s so she'll be going to tokyo well listen I don't have like I'm not like some fanatic. I don't if it's fair, it's fair. You know, if it's true that a man who transitions simply by suppressing his testosterone loses all his natural advantages that men certainly do have when it comes to strength and all that stuff, then fine. I'm, I, I happen to be skeptical. It doesn't seem like guys have low T. I mean, I don't know how low it goes,

but you know, guys who have low T do they become as they, they take on the upper body strength of women. I don't, I don't know. I don't know. But you know, if it's fair, it's fair. If it's not, it's not. But, but, but what, what what if what if most but not all of the advantages is taken out of the equation i mean how much advantage i mean suppose this trans woman has some advantage but she's still not the best female weightlifter in the world because she didn't start out perhaps with the same you know with i mean what's know, and, and because you're probably, she's probably not at exactly Perry.

Oh, you have any, anything to offer? I have a lot to offer. Go ahead. The question is, is do you want what I have to offer? I want you to offer it. And then I can always. I think that if. I think that trans athletes, particularly children. But these these aren't.

OK, but I'm starting there should always be included in the gender in which they identify to play now. especially given the information that you've just shared which is that their hormonal levels if if that's what noam's qualm is with is that they have is qualms with any potential natural advantage some of which may be testosterone related some of which may not be testosterone related. So, so his, his problem is with any potential advantage that somebody that was born biologically male would have. So here's, I'm looking, I'm just looking up.

So there's an article in wired.com. Wired is not a right wing site by any chance. The headline is trans athletes are posting victories and shaking up sports. And it says here that although a man declines his performance as he goes low testosterone, he doesn't lose all his he doesn't lose his lung capacity, his upper body, his greater upper body strength. I mean, they don't. It's just, you know, I mean, it speaks for itself. A lot, by the way, has been made, and I don't know how valid it is, but it sounds valid on its face, is that the fact that this woman is 43 years old and able to compete in the Olympics in and of itself is indicative of some biological advantage.

Because most of the competitors are in their 20s. What's the advantage? The advantage is the fact that she still can compete at that age means with with people much younger it means she she probably has some biological advantage at least that's what people have proposed and i don't know if that's a valid argument or not but it seems like it's worth okay all right transgender transgender women's performance generally decline as their testosterone goes but not every male advantage dissipates when testosterone drops. Some advantages, such as their bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, larger heart size, remain, says Allison Heather, a physiologist at the University of Otago in New Zealand.

Testosterone also promotes muscle memory and ability to regain muscle mass after a period of detraining by increasing the number of nuclei in muscles. And these added nuclei don't go away. So transgender women have a heightened ability to build strength even after they transition. So, I mean, you know. So you're saying that's not fair? Yes, of course it's not fair. I don't know. You know, it's just like,

I just don't think these are issues that really are worth taking up. It's like, I don't know. You know, you haven't spent your whole life training for event. Yeah. That's true. Getting beaten by somebody who has a naturally has natural advantages that you can't possibly compete.

You know what? If I made it to the Olympics and a trans athlete beat me, like I feel like I would be willing to take that. Well, maybe you would, but that doesn't, that's not an argument for fairness. I don't know.

Is it though? I mean, for all of the, for all of the unfairness that trans people have had to come across. I mean, maybe this is something that you grant them. Let's equalize unfairness by committing unfairness to other people. Listen, I I don't know. I mean, I know this is such a hot issue. I have nothing against. I mean, we in boxing, we have different weight classes, right? Why do we do that?

Why do we do that? They're all the same. Why do we do it? Because we understand that competition between equally situated, not equally situated people is not fair. Now, it's true, even within a sex, some people are just born with advantages, so you could say that's not fair. How do you quantify that? even within a sex, some people are just born with advantages. So you could say that's not fair. But then I'll come and have them.

How about letting men compete in the in the in the women's WNBA? I mean, come on now. I mean, well, no, but you could let trans women in the. Look, I did the argument to me is. Is to is to spare hurt feelings, that's the main argument, as far as I know, I think hurt feelings is. are low, then I'm all for including trans people to make them feel welcome and to make to make them feel, you know, to not discriminate. But when the Olympics, the stakes are high. And I think it's fair to at least pose the question whether whether this weightlifter

should be competing with women. And I think if they do have an if what Noam had read is true, that they still maintain the natural advantage despite lower testosterone. I think the case is kind of open and shut. Okay. So they should not, excuse me. Okay. So wait a second. First of all, it's not hurt feelings. I mean, it's like hundreds of years of just like inequality. Number one. Well, look, nobody's been alive for hundreds of years. Okay. People, people, I hate this. I'm going to say something crazy. I didn't live through that.

I wasn't in the Holocaust. Like you can't. I'm not going to play out 3000 years of Jewish oppression as my beef in something. So you're saying no. You're saying no one should be allowed to compete in the Olympics. No. So. So what I'm saying is, is so then what is the solution? So the solution is, is that she can compete with the men or unfortunately seen.

Unfortunately, maybe she can't be in the Olympics. Not everybody can achieve their dreams in life. OK, so I can't be in the Olympics. I always wanted to be a professional tennis player. Didn't have the aptitude. OK, putting her with men is obscene, like just point blank, just outrageous. So, so you have to create a category for trans athletes then. I mean, I think that's the only reasonable solution. This is a good one. This is from an athletic business, transgender girl with state track

championships, a junior Andrea Yearwood of Cromwell high school, a transgender student athlete who's transitioning to female recently finished second in the 55 meter dash. The winner of the event, Terry Miller of Bloomfield High, is also transgender. Miller set a girl state indoor record in the event at 6.95 seconds. Miller and Yearwood won the hundreds. I mean, it isn't isn't it pretty obvious given. OK, let's let's just take a little let's just do a little, you know, off the top of our head statistics here. Trans are a very, very, very low number, right? Especially in high school. When you start hearing regular stories of trans athletes winning athletic events, given how few trans people there are, doesn't that tell us just without knowing anything else that obviously

they have an advantage they're quite they're already just anecdotally but it just i'm sure it's true it's anecdotal but it does point in a direction certainly room for further inquiry that they're overrepresented in their victories based on their, their being trans. And you know, what happens if we go on like this for 15 years and, and basically every sports record is, is held by a trans athlete. How is that going to be okay with you? I would think that would be pretty good evidence that it wasn't fair. Right. If, I mean, if trans athletes are winning a 10, a hundred times, 10 times, five times more likely to win an event than a non trans athlete.

Is that true, though? I'm saying if if. Well, I guess that would be proof that it's not fair. I don't know. I mean, my reply to that would be, I think, that the inequities that trans people face and have faced through every single other aspect of their life is more of the focus of when I think of well then you're saying go ahead Dan I'm sorry well but but look at the expression on Noam's face because when you say stuff like that I literally

want to throw the microphone through the computer and fucking never do this podcast again because that is not you think Peter Singer would agree with you yes I do I do think Peter Singer would agree with me no of course he wouldn't you don't the idea

okay can somebody do something unfair to you because someone who looked like you was treated unfairly in the past can somebody come and punch you in the nose because some other white woman did something to somebody to them? This is just the idea of making up for inequities

through something that is unfair to people who had nothing to do with committing that inequity is collective punishment. It doesn't hold up. Okay, so that's a fair that's a fair point. So then the question is, is a trans athlete has a right to be treated fairly. OK, fine. Athlete has a right to be OK, fine. I can accept that. And you don't have to get violent and, you know, start trying to punch people through screens. OK, so what he agrees with me, he does if he wants people to be interested in this podcast. So what's the solution then? Not every solution, not every problem has a solution.

You know, I think that you're generally quite one. One possible solution would be one obvious solution would be trans events. Well, like I said, what's the solution to me not being able to live out my dreams of professional tennis? There is no solution. Unfortunately, I had to go into comedy. That didn't work out either. But but, you know, sometimes you cannot pursue that which you wish to pursue in life is very unfair. Terribly. This reminds me of this reminds me of my like Roe versus Wade in law school. Like you could put a gun to my head. I don't care. I'm not anti-abortion. I'm not

anti-trans. I don't care about the Olympics. None of this really matters to me, but you can put a gun to my head and I'm not going to say, yes, I understand the logic because I never understood the logic of Roe versus Wade. And I never understood the logic of saying that, yes, as long as somebody is transitioning, we're going to look, we're going to pretend that they don't have all these advantages, which normally is the reason that we segregate sports between men and women. I mean, I don't care. When I say I don't care, I really don't care. You sound like you care. No, I just can't utter something illogical.

So I'm saying like you're just like literally you're just saying because you're so sympathetic to these people. I'm sympathetic. I am sympathetic. Yeah, I saw my. But that's like I'm sympathetic to a woman who who is pregnant and doesn't want to carry the baby. And I've, and I've had girlfriends who had abortions, but there's no right to an abortion in the constitution. Like, like I just can't, you know, you can say it all you want.

Okay. First of all, let's not start conflating things. Okay. Number one, we can have the Roe versus Wade debate. All analogies are not conflations. I'm making,

I'm yeah. Okay. Whatever. I'm saying that there needs to be a solution. Okay. Like that, that's what, that's where my allegiance is, is like, you have to be able to include trans athletes in a way that is fair and balanced and maybe fair to everyone. Well, is it fair? You know, it's not even fair. If I have a natural, if I'm playing against chess against my four-year-old, that's not even fair to me. Like it's, it's just not fair. Why isn't that fair to you? Well, what one wonders as an athlete, you know, just from,

from the perspective of the trans athlete, would they feel, if they knew they had an advantage? Why, why? No, look at Lance Armstrong. People want to win. Yeah, I guess so. But, but, um, you know, I mean, I'm sure Lance didn't feel great about it. I think Lance probably justified it by saying everybody else is doping too. I would imagine would, you know, but, but one would think that an athlete wouldn't want to win under those circumstances, not a real victory. What was he doing? Wasn't he just like cleaning

out his blood? I don't I don't think so. No. But in any case, you know, this is and this argument is all based on on on natural on on whether or not what Noam had just read earlier from Wired magazine is true, whether the natural advantage is there despite low testosterone levels. If it is on natural on, on whether or not would know him had just read earlier from wired magazine. It's true. Whether the natural advantage is there, despite low testosterone levels. If it is again, the case seems pretty open and shut that he should not be allowed to compete.

I will say this. I spent, this is going to sound funny. I spent a lot of time with pre pre-pubescent children. And I'm editing that out. No, because, because,

because I have, I have young kids and they have friends all over the world. And it's clear. I mean, it's just clear that the boys have an advantage. That's not to say from time to time some girl is an outlier or whatever. But in general, the boys kick the butt of the girls in a prepubescent setting. Boys have a natural advantage. I think you could have just use the word young.

Agreed. Without getting into it. I think young might have just said young. I spend time with children because I have children. No, because we're talking about testosterone as being the key factor. It has to be prepubescent because that's when testosterone kicks in. I'm saying even before, I'm saying like post, if you take puberty blockers or testosterone blockers as an adult, it doesn't even bring you back to where you were when you never had testosterone.

You still have residual vaginas. But I'm saying even even prior to that, as kids, when testosterone has never even been in the game, the boys clearly have advantages. I don't I don't know. I really don't know. I also don't think you can take testosterone blockers when you're an adult. I think those are only things you can take. Is Eve here, by the way? No, she's not. Yes, they take them to take them as adults. You might want to. Well, I just I literally just spoke to her and she said she would be here. OK, OK, OK, OK. But look, we're going to we're going to this is obviously the direction it goes and we'll see, you know, and if it turns out that it's fair, then then great.

I'm very happy. And God bless. Of course. I mean, but what they do, we'll talk about the word conflation. The real conflation is that if you dare to say, wait a second, I just want to understand this, that also now you're anti-trans. In other words, if you-trans. Who said that? Nobody said that. People say it all the time. Oh, okay. Well, I didn't say that. Noam, do we want to briefly touch on the mayoral

race here in New York City? Did you vote? No, you don't live in New York City. You do have a residence in New York. I don't know if you're eligible to vote here. No, I'm not eligible to vote. I mean, they have this convenient multiple choice rank voting You're eligible to vote here. No, I'm not eligible to vote. I mean, they have this convenient. There's multiple choice.

What is it? Rank voting? Yeah, I didn't vote. It's only the primary, although I guess the primary is pretty crucial because whoever wins a Democratic primary is pretty much a shoo-in. Yeah, yeah. In New York. It seems complex and I don't like it at all. I don't like it. What? This ranked choice voting in New York

City. Why don't you like it? I saw it today. Well, what they do is they if nobody wins, if somebody was more than 50 percent, they win. But if nobody was 50 percent, they then take out the lowest candidate and then they add his second choice votes to the thing. And then they continue this way until somebody's over 50%. So it seems to me that the most, like the most flaky voters voting for outlier candidates that are, you know, really nobody's taking seriously, you assume probably ideologically extreme or something that their second vote gets counted. Like they have an advantage there. I mean, what I guess I'm saying is, and that doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't it be much better just to have a runoff between the top two candidates? That way, everybody gets to focus in a new election on those two candidates. Learn about them because it's quite possible that if you really supported Eric Adams, you really never learned very much about the other candidates at all. And then you might have. And your second the second choice, second place vote that you choose may be quite random, kind of just a feeling you really haven't educated. It's just,

it's not an informed vote. And your third place vote is definitely not an informed vote, you know? So it presupposes that you've studied each candidate equally. And I just, nobody can really spit out whether it's a more democratic, less democratic. It just seems to me, we much make much more sense. You have the top two candidates. And if nobody gets over 50 percent, then you have a runoff. And in that runoff, the choice is made very clear and they can debate. And you have a and then everybody feels like and the winning the person with the most votes won. There's something weird about the person with the most votes won, but it wasn't the person who had the most votes on Election Day. It was the person who had the most votes after four rounds of weird, arcane giving up votes.

But, you know. Well, who are you rooting for? Our friend Andrew Yang, who was on our podcast a few weeks back, you might recall, had conceded defeat. I think Eric, what's his name? Eric Adams. Eric Adams is, I mean, i don't know if you have any preference i don't really know much about it and that's first of all i'm not even sure i'm registered democrat or no i don't think so so i guess i couldn't have voted but independent you're not a republican i i know i don't know i don't think i'm registered any i guess i'm independent i don't know i was registered democrat now i'm registered independent but but

you're right i don't live in the city so i I think that I don't know anything about any of them. I mean, the bigger lesson is, isn't it shocking that in New York City, this is the best slate of candidates we can come up with? A bunch of, like, mediocre, seemingly mediocre, or ethically flawed, or, you know, like it just doesn't, it just doesn't seem right. You'd think you'd have really, really super substantial people with impressive resumes running to be mayor of New York city. It doesn't seem like that's the case. I wonder if it's because of all the vulnerabilities now of the internet and cancel culture, as it were like, who wants to, who wants to run for office? Look at the people we get to run for president. I mean, you know,

why would it be, why would we get a more impressive group of people looking to be mayor of New York? Except Joe Biden has an impressive resume. I mean, you say what you want about Joe Biden. He's been in a Senate for, for forever. He was vice president. He was on the chairman of the foreign Affairs Committee. I mean, he has he has a life that would lead him to be qualified for president. Well, where do mayors usually come from? They come from city council or borough president. We have one guy, Eric. What was his name again? I forgot. Eric Adams. Yeah, he was borough president. And that seems like for city government, a pretty big stepping stone. He was Brooklyn borough president.

Andrew Yang, well, he ran for president. Yeah. So, you know. If you just listen to these guys, it just doesn't seem like. How come nobody votes also? Nobody votes for mayor. I mean, it's obscene. All anybody does is complain about the city and then nobody votes.

Well, if crime is the number one issue and if violent crime is truly spiking and that spike is going to linger on after covid, then I would say that having a in a very like just a very real politic way of having a having a black cop as mayor would be a good thing because you'll have the latitude to do it. I must say, I've been feeling much more uneasy the past couple of months just kind of walking around the city at nighttime. I'm not sure if that's just if there's real danger afoot that I'm sensing or if it's just I've internalized what I've read about crime statistics but I do feel more uneasy there is a big spike in crime but the um and I think that that guest Sharkey said is that the the victims are overwhelmingly black and minorities and um

which is which is the tragedy of it all but uh I think that a, a, a black ex cop will have the latitude to fight crime without having to worry about, you know, if somebody does something or something goes wrong, being, being called racist, which is obviously always on the minds of white mayors. So, so that's, you know, that might be a good thing. You know, he has a lot of he had a lot of support in the black community, even though he supports stop and frisk. Which is amazing, right? I mean, I mean, when I say amazing, I mean, startling that that a black guy supports stop

and frisk. Dan is very distracted. Well, because I'm just wondering if Eve is coming. Well, Eve is just messaged me back and said, I'm so sorry. I just finished a lunch meeting that was super important and ran overtime. OK, is there any way we can do this one hour later? Would you like me to read you what I replied? Go ahead. I hope you didn't make fun of her name.

I was like, you're such an asshole. I can't. No, you didn't, right? I said, I mean, is this really interesting? I said. I think it's interesting. Yes. Don't question it.

You can do it an hour later and I can edit it together. I said, I said, you know, we're on air right now recording. Please let me. Can you join us or please let me know if you, you know, need to reschedule. To which she said, I didn't realize it was live. I should have realized. I'm incredibly sorry about this. I'm currently outside and only have my phone.

Do you need me to join on the phone? I can do that if it works for you. You want me to just tell her it's fine, no problem. We can do it in an hour and we'll edit it. We're not on the air. We're just in the middle of doing it. I didn't say we were live.

I never told her we were live. I just said we're recording. I don't know what you guys are doing in an hour. You said on the air. On the air means live. No, I didn't. I said we're recording. I don't know what you guys are doing in an hour. You said on the air. On the air means. No, I didn't. I said we're recording. Whatever.

What do you want me to do? I want to know what you said, because now you're reading. You're changing the words as you read them. I said we're on air right now recording. OK, on air. Well, we are. I mean, we're recording right now. I mean, I wasn't trying to be disingenuous or like misleading.

No, it's a misinterpretation. On air generally means that there's electromagnetic waves being generated and received. I mean, are we recording or are we not recording? Yes, we're not on the air as that term is generally used. OK, fine. What would you like me to do? I wasn't like I can do it in an hour. OK, but in an hour or an hour later, because an hour later.

Ask her what to ask her what time she'd be available. OK, I'm just going to say no problem. Don't say no problem. Just say what time would you be available? And she just said, do I want her to do it? She's outside and only has her phone. Yeah, but that might not be the best. So that's not idea.

So when can she get in front of a computer and do it? This is the time. We can't say it enough that Perry's husband is a saint. OK, I don't need the two of you. For the two of me, I didn't say I would write an email back to. I'm not dictating anything. And moreover, I don't believe your husband's a saint. I think you're probably quite quite agreeable to live with. Thank you. I am actually he's not I'm a fucking saint, actually. By the way, just getting

back whilst you're composing your email whilst I'm whilst I just was a thought had occurred to me and i was googling it to see if there was any information online it occurred to me that being a trans woman in women's gymnastics might be a disadvantage because aren't those those particular um pieces of equipment that they use geared to women well that's a very very very smart point, Dan, because that allows you to make the point in the opposite way. Because if the trans women are not able to do the uneven parallel bars, which is an event that men generally are not good at, I've heard that too. That would whether that's the case or not and i couldn't find any information but when i get home and have more time perhaps i'll do a little more of a deep dive but uh yeah i i wonder about that and also the the women gymnasts are all very small they're very tiny and they're very young and just to be clear like i have um three trans people that i'm friendly with and speak to and um uh i i think two out of all three of them see this as a close call and i think two out of three of them actually

don't think that the trans athletes should compete so this is not you know this is not open and shut you know i think fair-minded people are just like we we don't, we're not a hundred percent sure. And, and we want it to, we want to do the right thing, you know? Okay. The fact that you can find three trans people who agree with you does not support your point any more than I could find three trans people who would agree with me. I'm just, I know. I'm just saying like, I was not, I'm just saying,

I'm just sharing, like, I've actually reached out to discuss this with people who are trans. We've had them on the show. Yeah, but they seem to feel that they still have physical advantages. That's my point. They still feel like, no, no, I'm not. transition, but they don't believe that physically they don't have lingering advantages from when they were men. They still feel that they have advantages.

So I understand it's not proof, but it's something. Perrielle, did Eve get back to, she certainly did get back to me. And she said, she said that she can do it in 40 minutes. I, so should we,

should we pause in, I guess we should pause, take the pause that refreshes and, and, and we'll, although I do think that, that all that discussion might be of some interest. Yeah.

Well, I'll edit it together. Okay. So we'll, we'll be back here in 40 minutes. Is the studio available in 40 minutes? I'm asking our studio. He said yes. But through the magic of television,

it will appear seamless. It will be instant. And I will clarify to Eve that we were not actually on the air. No, we're certainly not. Very self-conscious about her misuse of the term. The question is, should I eat now or wait?

That's the question. I will say this. So the principle, I shouldn't say it. Well, I guess you should. There was a speech. If I were to say to you, I better not. I'm just thinking.

I mean, I could be wrong. So, so at my daughter's graduation, there was a speech. God. And somebody gave a speech and they advised, they advised these fourth graders to be quote, outwardly kind and considerate when you, in your life out, be outwardly kind and considerate. And, um, it occurred to me

hearing that, that, uh, the word outwardly means on the surface right outwardly doesn't mean be kind of considerate to people it means be outwardly kind of considerate even if even if you don't mean it inside right and i and i thought that's that was it was either bad advice it was the wrong advice or even worse i i shudder to think that they didn't use the word properly, which is. That's I think I think it's the second one. Yeah. Did I want to be a snob? I don't want to be a snob.

But you feel like you are a snob. You always tell me I'm a snob, but you're a snob, too. Well, what what are educators supposed to be experts in? I don't disagree with you. I'm the first one to admit that I'm a snob. No, but it's not a snob. If I go to the doctor and they don't know where the pancreas is, I'm like, well, that's not a snob.

I'm saying if you're educating children. No, you're right. Who said that? The principal. It was the principal or maybe it was the custodian. I don't think they meant what you're saying so i did i misuse the word conflate is that is that what did i did i use the word

conflate incorrectly well i know i think you meant conflate but i wasn't conflating i was conflating is to i believe it's combine them as if they're the same. Correct. Yeah. Inflating is an annoying kind of word that I didn't hear very often, even 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago that people just use constantly. Is it true? Right up there. And gaslighting is the worst of the new words because people don't even use, I mean, they just use it for anything,

anything they don't like that. If you say anything, they disagree with you. A lot of those words, phrases too. Let's unpack this. Trigger warning? If I hear unpack this one more time, unpack this one. Another one is bespoke. I got a custom major.

I got a bespoke. I don't hear that one, but lived experience. One's lived experience is sort of another one. By the way, no, I'm unrelated about conflate. I mean, I never heard conflate ever.

Do we hear that all the time? Conflate? I don't all the time. Yes. Especially we're hanging out with Perry L. I feel like no one tells me I'm conflating things all the time. No, no one uses it too.

I guess I joined the crowd, but I, yeah, I just, you all the time. Noam uses it too, I guess. I joined the crowd, but I, yeah, I just, you're absolutely right. I just, that's a new word. There's a lot of words like that. Trendy. Noam, what, this is unrelated, but I think of interest. What, what's going on before the pandemic, you were auditioning, if that's the right word,

chefs to come and make the comedy seller, the olive tree cafe to bring it to the next level of the culinary experience. And it seems like you've abandoned that, that, that goal. Is that true? Or can we expect,

you know, new auditions coming up. I just had a meeting with a very, very awesome bespoke chef. A very, very awesome Israeli woman who is a very, very

respected restaurateur. She offered for money, but she offered to help us with our kitchen problems and I think it might work out. It's going to be a big investment, but I think it will be worth it. Coincidentally, I'd eaten at some of her restaurants

and they're fantastic. You could probably get Guy to do that for you for less money or for free. I can flake Guy with a... By kitchen problems money or for free. I can flight guy with a, with a, well, no, when you went by kitchen problems, you mean lack of,

uh, of talent in the kitchen or there's other problems. No, no. Like when I say, I'm not, no, I didn't mean it.

That is problems with the people in the kitchen, the kitchen problem, meaning like trying to get a, a, uh, a menu that I'm of the type that I would like in the olive tree to really make it catch fire. It's your right to go Israeli

because you're just not going to be happy unless it's an Israeli Mediterranean Middle Eastern menu at that level. No, I wish it weren't an Israeli menu. I've been trying to not have Israeli food there forever. Yeah, but it's like every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in. I don't know. Israeli food has become in and of itself a politically incorrect term,

at least in some circles. You know what's interesting? During that week that there was all these anti-Semitic incidents going on during the Gaza, stuff like that, three people who had been to the olive tree tons of time said to me did you always have that star of david in the window it was very interesting that three different people for the first time noticed that star of david a stained glass star of david that's been there since 1970 or something um because they're they're attuned to it now so you're you're

right well no i'm saying it's it's it's politically incorrect because there are those who say that there's no such thing as israeli food it is just um it is just stolen palestinian food it is it is mostly uh i won't say it's stolen but but it's mostly just food from the Middle East. Obviously, there's always been Jews in that part of the world and they've always eaten this food. But yeah, like hummus, I wouldn't say it's obviously Arabic. OK, let's back up here for one second, because Israeli food is in Israel is different if it's Iranian Israeli food or Moroccan Israeli food or Yemeni Israeli food. I don't know that you can say that it's stolen

food. Periel is more particular about these shades of food than she is about XY and XX chromosomes. I don't know. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. She's like, Iranian, men and women, nah. It's true, uh, you're running and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, men and women. Nah,

it's true. Hi, Eve Barlow. Okay. Okay. So I am so sorry. I've been running all over LA. You can get away with anything with that accent.

We, uh, we, uh, we are back, uh, with, uh,

we, as promised and we're going to, uh, hopefully it'll be, it'll sound seamless in the edit. But let me Eve, we're famous for our introductions on this podcast. Let me give you the introduction that you deserve. Eve Barlow is a pop culture journalist based in Los Angeles. She grew up in the United Kingdom and has contributed to The Guardian, New York magazine, the L.A. Times, Playboy and many, many more in recent years.

Eve has become a more active voice on Jewish identity and fighting anti-Semitism via Twitter and Instagram at Eve Barlow. She was voted Algeminer's top 100 people positively influencing Jewish life. Is that an anti-Semitic website then no alga minor is not it sounds like it should it sounds like der stürmer but it's actually not um for the other one i guess welcome then eve barlow uh it says the uk but i believe you're scottish yes well scotland is part of the united kingdom scotland is but one of the four nations and has yet to become an independent entity. I think it's worth specifying Scotland rather than just giving you a blanket. I mean, we could also say she's from Europe, but I think specificity is always better. She is Scottish.

I'm Scottish. More specifically, I'm Glaswegian, if you want to really, really get into the meat of not only we need to go that far but in any case i i follow you on twitter but you i cannot comment on your tweets because you've restricted them i guess to people that follow you that you follow well i have to follow you back well only if you're going to be nice i certainly will be but i'll be'll be nice, but I will keep you on your toes. Okay. That's okay. I don't mind that. In a nice way.

He's very nice. I tend to be nice. You seem very nice. Yes, I do give off that vibe. You're quite correct. Your intuition is spot on, as I expected it would be. Noam, I know you're um you've been uh chomping at the bit to talk with eve well she had that whole big controversy during

um she had the nerve to to defend uh israel a little bit and to complain about hamas and she got um taken down across the whole world and made fun of and all that. I read your, was it the social media pogrom? Was that the article in Tablet? That was the one. I'm a big fan, by the way, of Alana Newhouse. I know her a little bit. She does an amazing job at Tablet.

And I'm in a very difficult marketplace for journalism now. She manages to, she seems to be doing well. So, but anyway, so tell what you want to tell the listeners what you went through and what it was all about. I mean, absolutely. And, you know, I want to premise that by saying that the story does not exist to paint me as some kind of victim or anything like that I really what I do in an online space is really about bringing the Jewish community together educating the Jewish community and empowering us to be proud of who we are because non-Jewish society seems to uh benefit from making us the laughingstock, which is effectively what happened to me

when I got louder about trying to inject some nuance into the narrative that existed around the conflict in May between Israel and Hamas. So while I was being a loud advocate for the Jewish people online, I was experiencing what I then documented in the social media pogrom article and identified as a pogrom of the social media age. Now, just to be, you know, really diligent about this, what I was trying to say was not that what was happening

to Jews was the equivalent of historical pogroms that have existed for thousands of years in which Jews have their homes burned to the ground and their communities are driven out of tangible real life places and they are killed and maimed. I wasn't trying to say that what was happening to Jews online was in any way equivalent to that. What I was doing was using language to try and create some kind of acknowledgement about what it felt like to be Jewish and advocating in online spaces during this time, because what was happening to us was that we were being expelled from online spaces. We were being expelled from online spaces. We were being libeled as racists and apologists for genocide and ethnic cleansing and pretty much being being pelted with accusations day in, day out that we were liars. Essentially, the oldest conspiracy theory that has existed in mankind which is the Jewish people are to blame the Jews are liars and they they weave their web of lies so that they can be all powerful and all consuming and so this was happening I called it the social media pogrom because this

is the first time in the digital age in which the conflict in the middle east has flared and the first time in the digital age in which anti-semitism has really become so overtly apparent again in society and so what we're experiencing in digital spaces is brand new really it really is brand new and it needs to be defined and it needs to be spoken about. And the piece came out. In the piece, I talked about how this new strange phenomenon had started to exist, whereby every time I spoke online, I would receive sometimes hundreds, sometimes thousands of people just responding to my tweets with a hate name that was completely juvenile and remains completely juvenile. Although I have now

muted the phrase on Twitter so that I don't go completely insane. So my hate name is Eve Fartlow, which is wildly original. And, um, I have an eight year old, I have an eight-year-old i have an eight-year-old son and he loves jokes like that so you know i'm getting i'm getting is anybody else having a sound issue no i'm not i'm getting some crackling but so so so and but but let me just just to interject this but what was horrible or interesting about this is that you were also getting it from Jewish people, right? Oh, yeah. And Seth Rogen. And so what was the- So once the piece ran, once the piece ran, what happened was that this part of my online experience that I documented was then proven correct. Because the day the piece came out, the e-fartloads got louder and louder and louder until there

were almost 40,000 e-f fartload tweets happening on the internet and I was the number two trend in all of America and that was the day of the San Jose shooting and I was trending above a shooting so and Seth Rogen also responded to my share of the tablet piece with a fart emoji which contributed to the level of trolling as you can imagine that I then received because he has you know eight million followers on Twitter or what have you and it's Seth Rogen. Yeah I don't. Well, I'm very curious. And I'm going to ask you the questions that come to my mind. I don't know if they're the questions you've been asked before, but this is really what's on my mind. First of all, you're from Scotland.

You're from a part of the world where my impression is that it hasn't been too easy to be a pro-Israel Jew for quite a long time. American Jews have had a much easier time of it. Europe has been for a long time not comfortable with Israel. So is that true? What was it? What is it like there? And how did you come to be so defiantly proud of being Jewish in Israel? Yeah. I don't actually know if I agree that America has necessarily been an easier place to be pro-Israel, but it has been superficially a seemingly easier place to assimilate as Jewish people because you see, you know, signposting of Judaism all over,

especially in a city like LA, where I live, you know, there are menorahs in the storefronts of the CVS during November, December season, you know, which is absolutely, my jaw hit the floor when I saw that when I moved here, I felt like I'd made Aliyah to Jerusalem. Seriously, it was not, it is not like that in Scotland. I grew up in an environment where, you know, I was very much encouraged to wear my Star of David under my

shirt. You know, don't, explain your dietary requirements away as I'm a vegetarian, you know. Not, don't go into the whole kosher thing. Don't, you know, don't talk about being a Jew. Just keep quiet, keep your head down. You're proud, you're proud in your home. When you go out in the world, just, you know, just get all, just get on with your life and don't make any noise about it.

Now, what do you attribute that to? Why is it? Is it something to do with the facile comparison to the Irish conflict in that part of the world where people just assume the Palestinians are the Irish? When I meet Irish people, I know a bunch of Irish people, I just presume that's the way they see it. And sometimes I can disabuse them, but that's just the automatic analogy they see. I don't think it's about any intellectual analogies like that, though that might factor into it a little bit in terms of the bias that exists. But really, what it has to do with is that we are such a minority in the UK. And there is a lot of post-trauma from the Holocaust. And I think that the, you know, the boomer generation were very much imbued with this idea in their kind of intergenerational post-Holocaust trauma. The best way to maneuver through the societies that have now allowed us to exist among them is to just keep your head down and don't get too loud and you know

in the hope that antisemitism has kind of gone away or dwindled momentarily which we know is not true antisemitism never goes away and what we've done what we've seen in the past two months is the second that someone is given permission to be an anti-Semite, they really just take that baton and run with it. You know, it's not. Yeah. Has Mark Knopfler spoken out at all? I'm not aware that Mark Knopfler has spoken out, but I am not the biggest. Probably the second. Because he's the second most famous Scottish Jew next to Eve Barlow. He's Jewish. He is half,

but people will take what we can get because in Scotland, there's not many. There really are not many. He's not many. Mark Knopfler and I are not related, which is mind-boggling. And you're also a world-renowned music critic, correct? I am, yes.

I have some questions about music, too. You know, you're going to have to forgive me. Like, I'm almost 60 years old, and I'm a musician, actually, but my knowledge of popular music is, you know, it stopped like 25 years ago. But I will say this is the thing. Also, time also does seem to have stopped in pop music because I noticed we're going to jump.

We'll come back to the Jewish thing in a second. But just we talk about this. I noticed when I auditioned musicians or I meet young musicians in their 20s, guitar players, what do they play? They are still playing the Rolling Stones, the Beatles, whatever it is like. That is still the what's that phrase? Lingua Franca. Is that is that the like for the language that is still the common language of of pop musicians? It's not something from the 2000,s so it's almost as if um time has stopped still in rock music you have you you agree with that no no so tell me what you think wait i don't i don't agree with that i think that there are i think that there are classic staples yeah especially

i've actually noticed from interviewing bands in America while I've been freelance here for the past seven years that American younger American musicians are far more inclined to drop the name check the list of you know 60s 70s classic inspirations Hendrix Doors right Beatles Stones Floyd you know Neil Young Leonard Cohen all of the all of the classics because I think that there's something about just the American culture and the and a lot of the navel gazing of growing up here and really just being imbibed with all of the the pop culture that has that has really kind of defined what it is to identify oneself as American and you know pop culture here is is very um sticky and it and it it's infectious and America when get, even when you're in an Uber and you're listening to the radio station here

and the classic hits are on and you're on a freeway or whatever, America kind of plays itself all the time and it really enjoys doing that. So there is always going to be, I think, especially among American artists, a tendency to name check those classic records as influences. But but really I think as the generations

now are experiencing it's not a lot of the influences are far more digital and hip-hop and rap music has really become more if more important, at least equal to the inspirations for modern pop stars, producers, songwriters, the rhythmic tendencies of those artists and those genres have become a lot more important to songwriting. I would agree with what you just said, bud. What songs?

Okay, so it's still, it's 2020 and, you know, people are still listening to the Beatles. 2021. 2021, that is correct. We're in the 20, yeah, I don't know what year it is. People are still listening to, you know, the Stones and the Beatles and a lot of those things and U2 and, a lot of those things and um you too and you know classic

rock what songs do you think in 30 or 40 years from 2021 or from the 20 teens people will still be listening to and will perceive as classic pieces of music in 30 say 30 years or 40 years or so uh that's a really good question and i think that some of the artists that will endure are maybe some people who are less popular to talk about right now um someone that i think will be spoken about in 50 years time is kanye west i think people will speak about Lady Gaga in 50 years time because she really is an EGOT baiting artist. I mean she is reminiscent of a mold of superstar that I don't think the industry encourages to exist anymore just because it's much more interested in virality and things that happen instantaneously and an artist with that kind of expression and study doesn't doesn't really exist in the framework of overnight success if you if you catch my drift um but I think those are two people who we'll talk about in 50 years

time I know there's a lot of attention on artists such as like Lorde or Billie Eilish right now but for me I'm not sure that I've seen that, I've felt the kind of soul in the music that to me will speak beyond one generation and that's really what you're considering when you're asking who are the artists that we're going to talk about in 50 years' time. The messaging and the honesty in the sound and in the lyrics and the performance

needs to be something that speaks to the human condition in a real way. And I think something that speaks to the human condition in a real way and I think something that's happening right now that I'm interested and curious about but I don't know whether people agree with me is the idea of how fear is festering in the actual creation of art with regards all of these conversations that we have online all of the identity politics all of the um need to kind of virtue signal and align with particular causes and ideas and what that's actually doing to art. Because I am a big believer that if you can't say something in art, then where can you say it? And I fear...

I mean, music is different in many ways. Because music, you know, you can... Music generally doesn't... It's not generally controversial in that way, in the way that a stand-up comic or a novelist or a movie could be. I mean, I guess... Has been. I disagree.

I mean, I grew up in the... Yeah, there are songs that tackle social issues, but generally, I mean, you know, is Lady Gaga tackling social issues when she's talking about a paparazzi? There was a hole in the 2000s. She's done a lot of controversial things with her performance art. I mean, she wore, she wore a dress made of meat, for Christ's sake, to an awards show, you know, and that was an incredible moment. So let me just, Dan, let me just remind you that, you know,

the Stones had to change their lyrics on the ed sullivan show tipper gore had they wanted to label cds for um lyrics uh many people blamed their kids drug use on the influence of of music um then um ice t uh had the you know there was a whole fuck the police thing in hip hop, which people blamed on, would blame the violence on hip hop music. So there's been, I think, a series of controversies, I think, based on music.

No? I guess there have been. I would qualify them as more of an exception. I mean, you know, your average song is talking about, you know, some love or sometimes the lyrics, you know, don't even necessarily make logical sense. I mean, you know, but very few are tackling social issues, you know. But I'm not talking about political music or social issue related music.

I just mean that the current culture that we live in, I wonder whether or not it is fostering an environment for artists to just write honestly about what they feel and what they're experiencing. I'm wondering that because I'm having conversations with artists in which they say, my biggest fear is that I'm going to be canceled. So I'm watering my ideas down. For sure. You're right. For sure. And, and let's, this is not limited to music, right? This is,

this is a problem that's infecting every single area of life. I'm the most mundane clerk at the bank who doesn't want to say the wrong thing to big stars who are buckling and issuing apologies for nothing. And now, you're no kind of conservative, right? You're not a conservative political person, are you? No, not at all. I mean, at the moment, I consider myself to be kind of politically homeless because since the Eve Farlow thing thing's really taken off I've really learned that I am an enemy of the dirtbag left and progressives are scared of me um but I have always been a liberal leaning center left wing you know center left sort of. So that's, sorry, that's really interesting to me

because I so relate to that. I mean, I feel like it was astonishing to see what happened to you online when, I mean mean suddenly like you became this person that was saying things that seemed to me who also considers herself to be quite far left leaning for lack of a better phrase that seemed totally reasonable um I mean, so it was really shocking. Yeah. I mean, and that's why I always come back to this.

And I premised what I was saying originally with this statement that I'm not a victim because it's not really about me. It's about what I have come to represent because a lot of the people who are throwing vitriol at me online are people who know me you know they're people who know who I am who know what I stand for who know my heart who know like the things that I'm passionate about and have cared about for my entire

career and adult existence and they know that I'm not any of these things that people are libeling me at and yet they're libeling me as, and yet they're unfollowing me. They've decided they can't speak to me again. They are created so much. So for the listeners to get a feel, what, what kind of things, what kind of outrageous things did you tweet that, that caused such a visceral reaction in people? Do you remember offhand or Like, what's the worst?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, and the thing is, is that they're not outrageous. I'm just asking. I know you're being facetious, I know. But I'm just asking reasonable questions. I'm saying things such as, you know, that you can't fight one form of hatred with another form of hatred.

You can't vandalise Jewish places of worship when you're protesting anti-Black racism because it doesn't make any sense. Why would you attack another minority group in order to make a point about systemic racism? it's harmful. It's hurtful to cause that kind of division. So me plainly stating, please don't vandalize a synagogue in a BLM protest became the most incendiary thing someone could say on the internet, which is absurd, eh? And extremely worrying. Yeah, it's deeply disturbing. It's deeply disturbing.

And I mean, I'm very proud to meet you because for a long time, I mean, for a long time now, my beef has been not with the non-Jewish world. And I know we don't want to make this podcast too Jew-y, but I'm just going to say it because I have you here. But, you know, it's been with the Jewish world. And I know we don't want to make this podcast too Jewish, but I'm just going to say it because I have you here. But, you know, it's been with the Jewish world that has become less and less willing to defend itself and to make the case for itself. And I've always felt that, well, you know, at the point where the average Jew throws in the towel and defending Israel or defending the Jewish people, like,

why would the non-Jewish world think that we even had a case? Like, no one's going to care about the treatment of the way black, the way police treat black people. If black people were like, no, no, it's fine. We got no problem here. Like, it has to come from the black people first. They have to make the case and then we can get behind them. And if the Jewish people won't make the case like for Israel or for themselves, of course, you can't really blame the non-Jewish world. And I, and I going back to what I said before, you, you come from a part of the world where that is not easy for you to do even though it's Europe. You're not like you're coming from Syria but even in Europe so I you know I really admire you and um I'm sorry to go through this but I really do

we need we need people like you from the left or the center left who are not um evangelical or or you know fundamentalist religious people to lay out the case, you know? Totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, you're really my hero. I know it's, it's incredible to see. And it was really sort of shocking. I mean, Noam has been telling me this for years, but I don't really take it that seriously when it's coming from him, but it was really shocking to see how this whole thing blew up. And my husband's Israeli, and he was actually the one who was like, you have to check her out. It's I mean, again, like it was like you're saying things

that are completely reasonable, like you can't compare Israel to Hamas. Right. Right. That an insane thing to say. Like, why is it insane for us to point out that Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization? I don't know. Why is it? They are a death cult. If I tweet Hamas is a death cult, I get thousands of quote tweets from leftists who are who say that that's a racist thing to say. It's not it's literally not a racist thing to say. It's crazy because it's a statement of truth. I feel like, you know, being considering myself left wing, having, you know, been left wing my entire left wing, far left wing.

No, I don't know. I mean, but it's like it's like hijacked. Like you don't get to take that from me. Right. like it's like hijacked like you don't get to take that from me right like I don't need to be a conservative to say that that's not what's going on like just because it shouldn't be political it's not political this is a humanitarian issue and what I have said until I'm blue in the face for the past four three or four years of doing this work because I started doing this work because I'm a British Jew and I had to well I didn't have to nobody had a gun to my head but I

felt I needed to be vocal about what was happening with Jeremy Corbyn and on the left for those who are unaware Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party which is Her Majesty's opposition in the UK so the number two party to the party in power, the Conservative party who are traditionally right of centre and I needed, I began to fight that in the UK and have been saying for four years, antisemitism is not a political matter. Jewish lives are not a political football that get used by the left or the right as is convenient. What you find is that leftists are only comfortable calling out neo-Nazism and right and people on the right are only comfortable calling out the squad for their antisemitism so you know I'm just out here naming it all and it's very clear to me who is who is the loudest about feeling very uncomfortable about that fact the idea of calling it all out you know and a lot of

it is coming from as you've pointed out noam jews who who don't want to be pushed out of left-wing spaces and my question is but at what cost why are you so uncomfortable with me calling it all out? Why do you want to ignore the fact that it also exists in our progressive spaces? Right, right. Do you? Are you in the United States to stay? Or is this just a brief sojourn for you? This is my seventh year in the US. I have a green card now. And it has been my intention to make a good go of it here. But I've been asking questions about that recently. I don't know. I'll marry you if you need to stay. I was going to say the same thing.

Noam's already married. All right. There's a workaround for that. Go ahead. But what brought you here originally? I always think of it like, why would anyone live in England? Noam's already married. All right, all right. There's a workaround for that. Go ahead, go ahead. But what brought you here originally? I always think of it like, why would anyone live in England?

It just seems to me all drizzly and there's no beaches to speak. I mean, I guess there's beaches. There are beaches. But come on, you know, Blackpool or whatever. What's the beach? There are plenty. Newquay? Yeah, are plenty. Newquay? Yeah, but like...

Newquay, Bournemouth? But can you really compare that to Southern California? Listen, I grew up in the UK. So, you know, I spent... I did my time there. When I was running a massive music magazine in London and I'd been there for two and a half years and I was covering a lot of artists all over the world and one of the bands that I wrote a lot

about at the beginning of their career happened to be from Studio City in LA and we had become very friendly with each other and at one point they they offered you know why don't you come out and live with us for a while and quit your job and come to LA where I'd been traveling to for so so many times anyway to spend time with them and with other bands and to be honest at the age of 27 I think I was um with no ties to London particularly other than a job it was a no-brainer why wouldn't I come to LA and move in with a band and have some fun at that stage of my life so you know that's that's why I came here and then I'm a workaholic so the second I got here I started hustling and and I became a freelance right an in-demand freelance writer because in the mid 2010s the money was evaporating

from the music industry and especially from music press side of things there was no money to fly journalists around the world anymore so I kind of became everyone's point person in America and at that time when I moved to LA in 2014 it was really the start of what we were seeing as a migration from New York to LA. When I moved to LA, the scene here was still a little bit, you know, a little bit ratchet. It wasn't what it has become wave of really exciting, diverse talent. But a lot of that was still concentrated in New York at that point. And I just, I came to the right place at the right time. You know what I mean?

I have another question. Were you, because I'm fascinated, we're jumping back and forth, but it's fine. I'm fascinated we're jumping back and forth but it's fine I'm fascinated by peer pressure I think that you know we're living in an age and this is what the the internet has brought peer pressure into everybody's life 24 7 and it's a very very powerful thing and I mean wokeness is almost the victory of peer pressure over logic, reason, you know, debate, anything. Were you always someone who peer pressure kind of rolled off your back? Were you always someone who didn't feel threatened by peer pressure?

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. And I think that that's something that's informed most of my decisions for better or worse. And I also, you know, it's interesting that you framed that question in a way about peer pressure, because most people, actually nobody has done that yet. And a lot of people ask me how my career as a music critic perhaps helped me as a Jewish advocate and it's a similar question because if you're going to be a music critic and you're going to and at the time that I did it you're also going to do it as a woman and as a young woman in a in an industry that's actually kind of monopolized by middle-aged white guys who listen to a lot of like cream or the clash or whatever I think not that there's anything wrong

with cream or the clash but you know what I'm trying to say um it was it was a time in which I couldn't be anything other but uncaring and thick-skinned when it came to people criticizing or even you know even not criticizing even what I was saying but criticizing the fact that I was daring to try to be a music journalist you know yeah so what we just had uh just two weeks ago here at the Comedy Cellar, we had Mr. Donald Fagan in the audience here watching the show from Steely Dan. I don't know if you have any thoughts on Steely.

Yeah, and he seemed very, very, you know, they have an album called Can't Buy a Thrill. I couldn't buy a laugh from this guy. Dan, you derailed her peer pressure thing. Well, Steely Dan aside. But I'm wondering what she feels about Steely Dan. I mean, that's the thing is that I don't care about Steely Dan. So that's why it was audacious that I'm out here

as someone who couldn't name you two Steely Dan records trying to be a music critic so my point about peer pressure is that it I had I couldn't even have got my foot over the door if I gave a shit about what people were going to say about what I was trying to do and I think it set me up for really not caring I mean I'm I'll be honest when Eve Fartlow became the number two trend in America during that afternoon there was about a 15 to 20 minute window in which I did I was a human being and had a bit of a total meltdown in my apartment I just I couldn't it was my phone was going off in every direction people were talking at me about how I should feel in this moment and what was going to happen to me

and I think the most insane thing that someone said to me was that this is probably most definitely going to be part of an SNL skit this Saturday so get ready for that and I was like wait what no I don't need like please no you can't be serious that cannot be something that's happened you know so that was a that kind of 15 to 20 minute window of meltdown happened but after that it was over and all I see that situation as and I quickly rebounded it's just well obviously what I said worked it was effective it had the purpose you know when you're a journalist and you operate in these spaces you're not you're not being a journalist and being a critic and putting your thoughts out into the world because you want people to react well to them all the time I mean I don't I don't speak out because I want

people to hate me but I don't um deny them their reaction I'm trying to have a conversation and sometimes when you talk to people they they agree with you and sometimes they vehemently attack you and you should be prepared for either reaction. So it's never been peer pressure is, yeah, it's, I've had to, I've had to accept that I'm not going to bow to peer pressure from a very, from the beginning in order to be able to do any of this at all, frankly. It's very, very hard. And you see Jewish people, and we should be clear, if people haven't heard the show, I'm sure that Eve will agree,

but if she doesn't, she can say so. We all acknowledge that many Palestinians live tragic lives, victims of not only of Hamas and Palestinian Authority torture and everything, but mistreatment by the Israeli government and all of it is true. a lot more to that story. And there's tremendous pressure on Jewish people. If they want to remain in good standing in center to center left circles to concede and give an inch and yeah. And, and just, um, just get on the side of saying, yeah, I know God, God damn Israel. And I, you know, I'm, I'm kind of embarrassed by them and yeah, I agree. And, or they'll they'll retreat into like, well, it's, it's really Netanyahu that people don't like. It's not really the fact of a Jewish state, whatever it is. And it's, there's no, and you

proven it. And there's not much home left for you anymore. If you don't give into that peer pressure and as opposed to the neo-Nazi or the Nazis that you referred to on the right who live in their parents' basement, the people on the left, these are the cool kids. These are the these are the stars. And these are the people who have authority in their professors and their media giants. And it's very difficult to go against them. That's why I think what Eve's doing is so important. And what people like Alana, who I personally know very, very well, is so important because and myself, too, which frankly, I'll consider myself a fucking cool kid. Like, you can't take that from us. Like, you don't get to claim that, you like we were very we were very late uh on this bandwagon so like this started for me when when spielberg came out with the movie munich did you

guys all see the movie munich you're a movie you love the movie i'm surprised you love the movie so anyway so no i loved it when i saw it but maybe maybe if i watched it again i would hate it is that what you're gonna tell me i'd be curious if you would watch it and let me know. So when I saw that movie, so Spielberg was very associated with remembering the Holocaust and he did that documentary about it. And then he comes out with this movie, Munich, which to me, the way I remember it,

was essentially saying that there was a conflation, Perriel, to use your word, between the terrorists who killed the athletes in munich israeli athletes who slaughtered the athletes and then the israeli masad who then set out to punish the terrorists right and and then and then the final scene of this movie he pans out and you see the world trade center which was his way of saying he's like and both sides and this is why we had 9-11 you know and i just saw i don't remember that yeah yeah i just remember eric banner having a pretty rough israeli accent i don't remember that movie and it was written by this guy kushner who was known to be have issues with Israel and the Jews but and to me it was

like Spielberg's way of saying yeah listen I I'm all about the the Holocaust but don't think that I'm like too pro Israel I'm totally balanced as it were on the issue of Israel and I was like well this is just his way of staying in the good graces of that Hollywood

community and this is 20 years ago already and it's just and now with intersectionality and this whole re-embrace of the importance of color, really, in politics on both sides, but I guess on the left a lot, it's just now it's even beyond antisemitism. I wonder just like, well, Israel has to be the bad guy because in any conflict between the white people, even though the Israelis are not majority white, but any conflict between the Europeans and the non-European world, the non-European world has to be the victim and they have to be right.

So we don't even need to hate the Jews anymore, you know. Right. But understanding everyone's identity through the prism of race is creating a very, well, frankly, it's creating a world in which Jews are erased because we don't fit into a racial binary. We are a people who are bound by our genealogical connection to the Levant. We come in various races. We are not defined by the colour of our skin. We're not defined purely by religion. We are defined by our ethnicity and our religiosity. And we can be neither religious, religiously Jewish, nor ethnically

Jewish, but if we're one or the other, we're still fully Jewish. So it's very difficult for non-Jewish world theories about race to actually understand or acknowledge the root of our identity, because it's not covered by these theories that exist post-Judaism. That's right. And we were never considered white by any, nobody who ever cared about whiteness, the racists in the world, ever considered well actually no i just i should forward you to an article i just read just today in the wall street

journal it's an old article but i i read it about about at least in america uh jews are have always been white by any definition uh in terms of number one you know uh the white drinking fountain jews drank at the white drinking fountain jews went to the white schools jews the miscegenation laws that said blacks and whites couldn't marry did not exclude jews from marrying white people uh jews were even slave owners in fact the confederate secretary of state was jewish there's really not, not nothing you can point to in the law that excluded Jews from whiteness. Well, fair enough. Fair enough.

What I was referring to is that the, the, the archetype are the typical white racist KKK member, white supremacist. I mean, everything we hear about today is white supremacy, right? White supremacists. The Jews were always enemy number one, even above black people,

we were the enemy. And now we, the victims of white supremacy have somehow read us, I'm sure much of this from not being informed, have read us into that enemy that was, you know, the white supremacists and they consider us white and part of that white supremacist structure, which is a bit rich for people, certainly my father's generation, because they were hated by the people who were white supremacists. So, but you're right. We were never, we were never victims of Jim Crow. We could use whatever water fountain we wanted, but we certainly couldn't marry their daughters. But it's a lie that the Jewish people are white supremacists.

Yeah, it's a it's a blatant lie. And it is being spread like wildfire right now because of the popularity of critical race theory. And because people are solely defined in the binary of whatever skin color they're born into. And it does not acknowledge our identity as Jewish people at all. And also how diverse we are, especially in places like Israel and how people have been banished from every other country in the Middle East for being Jewish. I mean, my husband's mother and father both escaped their birth countries because they were Jewish with like literally the clothes on their back. And that's the story of so many people who live in Israel who were Jewish. And so many people

who live in LA as well. Sure, sure. I was at a house a couple of weeks ago in Beverly Hills owned by a pair of extremely successful Persian Jews whose parents fled Iran. Yeah. And they came to LA and they did really well for themselves because they had to survive and now they're the bad people because they live in a nice house in Beverly Hills.

And yet their parents came here with nothing but the clothes on their back. Listen, I have an extremely close friend. It's one of my best friend's husbands who was one of the last Jews who escaped Lebanon. He was inside

a suitcase. They brought him out of Lebanon. We have to wrap it up but let's wrap it up this way. Give us the top five albums of the last 10 last 10 years that every person who loves music ought to go out and buy our albums even still a thing i mean people used to buy albums now they just buy or they well they have a spotify subscription or they buy a song by song they still albums. I know they still make them, but are they like a thing that anybody cares about?

The top five albums of the last 10 years. Or answer a different question. Whatever question you want to answer. What are the five albums you listened to most in the last year or something like that? Give us some. Or songs even.

Who listens to albums? I'm sure she does. You listen to a song. I do listen to albums i'm sure she does you listen to a song i do listen to albums i listen to many albums i love records um i loved in the past year albums that came out last year my top album of the year was women in music part three by heim i thought it was an incredible uh i thought it was their best complete work yet and I was really impressed by it better than Steely Dan

I don't listen to Steely Dan I'm sorry but I think you might like it if you heard it though maybe, maybe I'm not sure about that it's very jazzy very jazzy jazzy and smoky.

I feel like I've been told enough times in my life to listen to Steely Down and I have yet to do it. You don't have to listen to it. Maybe I'm wrong. Is that you want me to name some more?

You don't have to. but women, women in music, I'm looking it up on Wikipedia. Listen, I still recommend that. I think you should listen to that. I'm going to listen. I still like to listen to albums. Listening to songs is a different thing altogether. It's fun to listen to songs, but listening to albums is a, is a mood and a, and a, you're getting into a, a universe of a, of a, of a statement. It's longer and it's different, Dan.

Have a great day. But do the artists still put emphasis on albums the way they used to? Of course they do. Knowing that songs are sold a la carte. But songs are sold a la carte more than they used to. They used to buy an album. You had no choice.

I mean, you could buy a single, but nobody did that. Generally, generally you bought the whole album it's not the artists that don't want to make albums it's the industry that don't want to support artists who want to make albums because the industry doesn't know how to monetize albums anymore because of streaming services and the platforms in which people consume music are not um do not reward albums basically unless it's an album by someone who is a drake or rihanna or whatever and or a billy and anything that they put out is the more the more content the better but for your but for your you know your struggling independent band who are desperate to make an album, getting the kind of advance from a record label

to support that vision is much more difficult in this day and age. Yeah. Don't you think we should be asking her, like, what we should do as Jews so that we don't wind up, like, back in the ovens? Like, isn't that an important question to ask? Well, what music should we listen to?

I mean, Wagner, you know, is that is not. I don't know. The answer was the answer was provided to you by Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and George Washington. It's called the Second Amendment. Learn how to use. Huh? Are you coming?

If you really think that that's a danger and I don't think that that's a danger. But if you think that that's a danger, then that would seem to me to be as good a solution as any. We'll get a gun solution. That's if you think that we're going to be rounded up, then I can't think of any other solution. I don't think that we're going to be rounded up, then I can't think of any other solution. I don't think that would help. Take it easy. Nobody's rounding up. They didn't think we were going to get rounded up the first time

either. Yes, that's true. Nobody thought that was going to happen. Let's just be clear. The Holocaust was not the first time this has happened. It's not an anomaly. I mean, it's really scary. Yeah, it's very terrifying what's happening right now as Jews what we need to do is acknowledge it not be afraid to speak about it empower ourselves organize as a community and educate ourselves and if we don't

know what what we need the words that we require in order to advocate for ourselves. Lean on people who do and amplify those voices. And, you know, really, really learn about our identity. Because I think so much of what's wrong right now is that there are a lot of Jews, particularly in this country, who really don't understand Jewish identity, really don't understand anti-Semitism, really don't understand the history of Israel, why it exists, why we have a nation state.

Eve, I've talked to countless young Jews and you ask them, well, do you even know how it is that the West Bank came to be occupied? They have no idea. They know Israel is wrong. They have no idea. And it's important. The history matters.

The history matters. The context matters. Yes. But I think we were talking about the best albums of the 2020s. Can I just say something before this rounding up thing? Because I actually get uncomfortable when Jews say what Perry L said, because I don't think resorting to the outlier incident in history.

I know Jews have been rounded up in the past, but in modern history, it is. I don't think that really convinces people. And it doesn't even convince me. I think what's what really worries me, because that would mean the fall of the United States of America. And I guess if the United States of America falls, then anything is is possible. But what I think is much. Do you not think that it's possible that the West might be, I mean, like the fall of Rome happened. Yeah, it's possible. Donald Trump was president. Let me just finish my thought. of Jewish people to the point where Jews are reluctant to even tell people that they're

Jewish, where it becomes ordinary for Jewish kids not to take a semester abroad in Tel Aviv because the university frowns upon. Just a general shame of our own. That's already happening. Yeah, that's already happening. I think it's happening. Anti-Zionism is one of the most popular movements around young Jewish people. They are actively denouncing that they're Zionists.

They're also saying this cancer could grow and grow and grow. That I think is that's what really worries me. Getting rounded up, of course, it could happen. But I'm more worried about what I think is likely and worries me. I want my kids who are now all below 10, when they're in their twenties to be perfectly proud and comfortable to tell people, yeah, I'm Jewish and I'm going to go to Israel. And I, you know, and I, but that's not the, that's not the trajectory we're on right now. Listen, you say that, but I grew up with grandparents who had their entire family slaughtered in the

Holocaust. So it's not that far fetched. I mean, that narrative is very real. Is it far fetched to think that black people will become slaves again? Black people are still slaves in parts of the world. Right. But I'm talking about in America. I mean, you know what?

It's far fetched. Could it happen? Yes. Anything can happen. But I'm saying is that- Past behavior informs future behavior. Okay. And the things that are happening in our society freely and openly right now without any criticism are dangerous examples of past precedent. When it goes unchecked, we know what happens. I actually don't think it's an extreme view

to believe that what happened to Jews in 1930s Europe couldn't happen again, and it couldn't happen here. That's the whole point of saying never again. If you really believe that, then why was my comment about guns dismissed because i'll tell you why because because the citizens carrying guns will be no match for the power of the state should the state want but it doesn't have to be a match for it it just has to make it uncomfortable or just allow you at least time to escape. My father used to describe Jewish life in the forties and fifties, you know, people getting nose jobs, changing their names,

trying to pass as non-Jewish. This is what I think this, that is a much more likely future. Yeah. We, we have to, we have to, we have to wrap it up. That's a, that's a much more, that's the future that I worry about. All right. Eve, when are you ever in New York, Eve? I'm actually coming to New York on Friday night, but only for a night. No way! Yeah, I'm there to speak at the Consulate General of Israel on Friday.

Wow! You can't go see some comedy on Friday night? I don't know what time I'm going to be finished. We go late. Well, you're coming for a night. You're coming for a night. Right back in the morning.

Yeah. Why? I have an event in LA on Saturday night. So. Well, no pressure. We can get you next time, but it would be,

it would be an honor to have you down at the club. I would love to come meet you in person, but I know you might, you might be exhausted with that kind of traveling. All right. Well, I'm trying to make some, my own fart lows smell. Okay. To me, Joe, I don't like, but you were very, very a pleasure, a real pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you, guys. You're a credit to our people, honestly.

I know people who are not Jewish listening to this podcast are like, oh my God, what have I gotten into here? But I can't help it. I want to say it. So we're very proud of you. Thank you so much, Noam. Thank you all for having me. Thank you. Wait, wait, wait.

Where can we find you online? At Eve Barlow. Oh. I'm at Eve Barlow on Instagram and I'm at Eve underscore Barlow if you dare to follow me on Twitter. Amazing. If you follow me back,

you can look forward to very concise and insightful comments. Podcast at ComedySeller.com for comments, suggestions, questions. Somebody complained to me on Twitter recently that the podcast is falling apart and it's not what it used to be.

If you feel that way, fair enough. You're entitled to that opinion. Send us an email. Yeah, she can go. I just want to be. If you feel that way, fair enough. You're entitled to that opinion. Send us an email. Yeah, she can go. I just want to finish. Send us an email and tell us what your beef is and let us know if you want

us to do this, that, or the other thing. You can get Periel's books. The only Bush I trust is my own. On My Knees, both available wherever books are sold. Bye everybody. Thank you. Bye everybody.