The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Yardena Schwartz on 100 Years of Anti-Semitic Riots. Also, a Reply to Dave Smith and Jake Shields.

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

1. Yardena Schwartz, author of "Ghosts of a Holy War," discusses her new book on the 1929 Hebron Massacre and how it informs the modern day. https://www.amazon.com/Ghosts-Holy-War-Palestine-Arab-Israeli/dp/145494921X 2. Noam responds to the accusation made on the Jake Shields podcast that he had taken Dave Smith and Nick Fuentes out of context.

This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous Comedy Cellar, available wherever you get your podcasts, available on YouTube and available on demand on SiriusXM. This is Dan Natterman, Comedy Cellar semi-regular, along with Noam Dorman, Comedy Cellar owner, and Peri Alashinbrand, our producer, and with us us in studio today and you know i love it when it's in studio i just i don't like these zoom riverside interviews i agree with you they're not ideal not uh it's just not the same we have with us in studio yadena schwartz award-winning journalist and emmy nominated producer who worked at nbc news including stints at the day show nightly news with brian william MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell reports.

And her book, Ghosts of a Holy War, the 1929 Massacre in Palestine that ignited the Arab-Israeli conflict, is available everywhere. You get your books. So Yardena Schwartz joins us. Welcome, Yardena. Hello.

Hello, Yardena. Now, you're going to have to sit through something, but it actually is a good setup for discussing your book about the anti-Semitism and the riots. So, somebody told me that I was mentioned on the Jake Shields podcast. Now, do you know who Jake Shields is. Jake Shields, now everybody knows that I'm actually quite concerned about this kind of far-right anti-Semitism with Alex Jones and Candace Owens and

who else? Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson who is now enamored with David Irving who is a Holocaust denier and then, you know, J.D. Vance has talked about how Alex Jones is right about a lot of things and this guy Jake Shields is one of these online, really hard right anti-Semites. I'll illustrate his anti-Semitism.

Just if you look at his Twitter feed, just like the last few weeks, he said the Jews were trying to assassinate Donald Trump. He said we need to remake the show Roots to show who was actually responsible for the slave trade, the Jews responsible for the slave trade. He says, again, like Alex Jones, that the Jews were responsible for killing John F. Kennedy. And then he also big ups this guy, Dan Bilzerian, who is this vicious anti-Semite that Piers Morgan did an interview with the other day. Bilzerian, who says that Jewish supremacy is the biggest threat to the earth. Given that six million of them were killed in World War II by a genocidal monster in the Holocaust, do you not understand why that might make Jewish people feel that, yes, they have indeed been victims? Yeah, I mean, that figure has been revised, but

you know, I believe that Jewish supremacy is the greatest threat to America, and I think it's the greatest threat to the world today. I truly believe that. I don't want to be discussed by this degree of hateful people with this degree of hate for Jews. You know, like, I don't mind being discussed by people who disagree with my views on Israel, but these guys are kind of the real thing, and their followers, forget about them, they're reasonable compared to their followers. And I don't, I'm not happy about my name out there, let alone being characterized in a negative way. So I'm going to play you what it is that Dave Smith said to him about me. It's quick. And then I'm going to play you what it is that Dave Smith said to him about me. It's quick.

And then I'm going to play you what the truth was, just to, and then you can see, we can discuss it if you want. So not to be accused of taking it out of context, there's more in front of it

and maybe even a little bit more after it, I'm not sure, than there might need to be so that nobody should think that I just started it like they used to do with... He's got like a UFC fighter? Yeah, he's a former UFC champion.

You can see his ear has got that cauliflower ear that a lot of fighters get. So they're talking about Nick Fuentes. Can you go back to the beginning? Yeah, they're talking about Nick Fuentes, who's another online anti-Semite. I don't know if he's a Nazi, but he's... But I could understand at 18 years old

the way he's been treated and canceled and ostracized. But again, you got to be careful to be like, dude, Dave's a good guy on your side, so to attack you, to me, seems kind of stupid. Yeah, I mean, I thought... I did think the whole thing was... I thought there wasn't much there. When he first went at me,

it did seem like even in his words, it was basically that he... They're discussing a feud that Dave Smith had with Nick Fuentes. You can look it up online. Go ahead. Continue. He was like, Dave's getting on all these big shows and I should get that invite. And it's like, look, dude,

it is totally wrong what happened to him when he was 18. I didn't do that to him. I've been nothing but a critic of people who do that. And the people who did that to Nick are not big fans of mine either. I did think it was almost like he went at me for

nothing. And so then he had to kind of like find something. And that actually, the only thing, honestly, and I got nothing against Nick Stell to this day. I don't really care. It's fine. We had a little... Yeah, I don't hate the kid. It's fine. We had a little... Yeah, you don't hate the kid. Yeah, I don't hate the kid.

It's fine. But if there was a thing that I did lose a little bit of respect for him over in that, was that then to do the thing where he was, like, pulling up, like, years-old tweets and taking them totally out of context and then kind of trying to smear me with it. It's like, oh, really? Really? Nick Fuentes, of all people? You're going to do that?

Dude, I can't say how many different shows I've been brought. The dude, Gnome, from the Comedy Cellar, when I went on his show, he literally, he plays like a montage of Nick Fuentes. So it starts with like three seconds of me and Nick together and me like saying something nice to him. And then just a montage of Nick's like greatest hits of the most offensive things he's said by the way which 80 were clear to me he was joking because you know what i mean i didn't know that because i originally before i knew nick i would just see those montages like oh this guy's a terrible racist but then you get to know him when he's a humor he's just joking around yeah so but even as he's playing these i'm like listen dude like first off he seems like he's kind of joking in half of these.

And second off, I go, you're taking all these clips out of context. I'm not going to condemn him for that. But then... Okay, so the accusation is that I just took a clip of him just saying something nice about him. And then I took these clips, which are obviously funny, out of context. Which would be a terrible thing to do. So good. Now you can play the other video.

This is what actually took place on our show. Now maybe Dave is misremembering it. This is what he's referring to. Go ahead. So the first thing that came to my attention was this guy, Nick Fuentes. I think you're absolutely right to have these guys on the show.

I don't believe in the fact that you shouldn't platform people. I think you should have every fucking Nazi and KKK member in the world on the show. I don't believe in the fact that you shouldn't platform people. I think you should have every fucking Nazi and KKK member in the world on the show. So I don't, that's why I am like, like I had Norman Finkelstein on the show and I got a lot of grief from very influential Jewish people

like trying to like say, what the hell are you doing? You shouldn't be, and I'm like, fuck you. Do we believe, we've been complaining for five years about all these people like Heckler's vetoes and people chasing people out of things because they don't agree with them. And now was that just opportunistic?

Like, yeah, I believe in this stuff. What I don't agree with is that we should have these people on to normalize them and not challenge them. Because to me, and I don't think you're going to agree with me, Jews scream, and all oppressed people to some extent, cry wolf about racism and bigotry and anti-Semitism nine times out of ten times. But there are real anti-Semites out there. There are real bigots out there. And they are dangerous. AndSemites out there. There are real bigots out there. And they are dangerous.

And they do soften the ground. And we're kind of seeing it now with the Israel thing, regardless of whether we're on the conflict. We saw it on October 8th, kind of like a softening around where people were speaking very dehumanizing ways. So anyway, play this little clip and you tell me what you think. It's not simply to say, well, I hate blacks and Jews and gays and all of that. I mean, I think the truth is that that might describe some people, but it really doesn't

describe everybody. And I honestly don't think it describes Nick. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I really don't think it does. When a Christian talks, when a Christian quotes the Bible in America, you sit your ass down. Jew boy. This is America. This is a Christian country. This isn't Israel where they tried to ban the gospel.

You made your money here, but you're not home. And, you know, Hitler talked about the same thing. It's that when you look at a truly open society, a truly liberal, international, open society, that tends to be where the Jewish diaspora feels the most comfortable. And so they have this sort of histrionic fear of nationalism or of white solidarity because they recognize that in any kind of country that's Christian nationalist or, God forbid, if there's a white nation, well, they're going to stick out like a sore thumb and be the aliens.

So it sort of behooves them for a country to be as diverse and sort of Star Wars cantina as possible you know enough with the jim crow stuff who cares oh and a drink out of a different water fountain big fucking deal oh no they had to go to a different school their water fountain in that famous picture was worse who cares grow up drink i get the point we get the point so so i don't what's your feeling about do you like do you Did you just misspeak? Or you actually don't think he hates blacks and Jews? Well, okay.

So if you go back to the first clip that was a few seconds there, the only one I'm involved in, you might notice at the bottom of the screen, it says Nick Fuentes versus Dave Smith. Because this is a two hour debate that we did and the final, my closing statement of it was to kind of employ

Nick and his young audience to reject racialism and all of this kind of collectivist nonsense because it leads to really stupid places. But do you think he's an anti-Semite? I don't know. I don't really know so what you're what you're doing here well listen again it's i'm just saying i don't know what you're doing here

right is you're splicing one little clip of me with the worst clips you could find of this guy who is i think 23 years old and is clearly doing some type of like right wing shock jock thing. It's just like with all the internet comments, it's kind of difficult to tell who here is genuinely hates Jewish people, who here is trolling and saying the most offensive thing they can think of, who here is like some kid whose stepdad just beat the shit out of them and is like venting online. So I don't know. I don't, I think, I guess in that moment that you showed me, I was kind of like presuming the best of you, assuming you're not actually this person. Yeah, that's fine.

That's fine. But I'm asking you now, now that you've had more experience. I just gave you the answer. I don't know. And I haven't had more experience. I've heard you play 30 seconds of random clips completely isolated. He went on in the Jews a lot on your show. And then I imagine you've heard him on other shows. He didn't go in on the Jews a lot on your show, and then I imagine you've heard him on other shows.

He didn't go in on the Jews a lot on my show. In fact, we didn't talk about that much. Have you heard him on other shows? I've never watched a full episode of anything he's done. I've seen the hits or whatever that get posted. Oh, sure. But also a lot of them are just kind of like, it's a little bit difficult to tell, and with that whole Gro. Oh, sure. But also a lot of them are just kind of like, it's a little bit difficult to tell.

And with that whole Groiper movement, it's kind of, they're very young, very male, and they're very sarcastic. Like the Hitler Youth. Well, the Hitler Youth weren't very sarcastic. No, I had the thought before you said sarcastic. But so it is a little bit difficult to tell where the line is and what they really believe and what they're saying to be shocking. Regardless, I think for an adult who's not a 23-year-old, looking at it, I look at them as a reactionary movement to kind of the woke world that they kind of are reacting against so i don't know um i don't know what he feels about different groups of people fair enough but what but this is what

another dan this is what this would bother me first i think it's obvious i mean i'm can't read anybody's mind but he's either an an academy award level, or that was real venom coming when he said Jew boy. This is more than just trolling. Like I said, I can't read his mind, but that was pretty fucking convincing as a 60-year-old person who's read people pretty well in his life. That didn't seem like trolling.

And I watched a lot of him. But isn't what he's doing dangerous? Eh. I mean, there's, I suppose, yeah. I think almost anybody who is advocating any type of politics that are authoritarian, you could say, are dangerous. But there is a hierarchy of dangers, and usually that is determined by who actually has power to implement their policies

Okay, so that's basically it I don't know, what do you think? First of all is there anything there that seemed like he was joking or being sarcastic in those clips of Nick Fuentes? No, but like you said, you can't read his mind, but certainly didn't strike me that way

Well, I said I can't read his mind. Even if he's joking, it still has an impact. No, he's not joking. There's no joke there. There's no joke. I mean, listen, it's a clip, right? But I think there was enough before or after to tell that that wasn't a joke, right? Of course it's not a joke. Everybody knows Nick Fuentes says this stuff all the time. A joke has a setup, a punchline,

a premise that makes it funny. He's not playing a character. Number one. Number two, I didn't just show Dave saying something nice about him. I showed Dave saying, I don't think you're an anti-Semite. And then of course at the end I said, finally, don't you think this is dangerous? And Dave says, yeah, I guess it is. Not the most dangerous thing. And now he's come around to saying as if I took some out-of-context quotes where he was just

kidding and, you know, was totally unfair to Dave and Nick Fuentes. So I just want to put out there. And by the way... But he implied that because he interviewed Nick Fuentes, therefore he has guilt by association, rather than that he said Nick Fuentes is not an

anti-Semite. He said Nick Fuentes, I don't think you hate blacks and I don't think you hate Jews. Now, I also can't prove this, but Dave does all those shows with these Nick Fuentes associates. How do I know that Nick Fuentes is a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite

and Dave hasn't seen his shows? I don't really believe that. And I just, you know, and the same guy Jake Shields that had Dave on has this guy Dan... Bilzerian. Is it Bilzerian? I think it's Bilzerian. on, has this guy, Dan... Bilzerian. Is it Bilzerian? I think it's Bilzerian. Bilzerian.

Bilzerian. Bilzerian. And this is just a bubbling up ugly anti-Semitism on the right. And I just wanted to address it because... I mean, I hate to say I called it. You didn't call it? I have been you know... I mean, I hate to say I called it. You didn't call it. I have been saying it for years. Alright.

Well, what do you think? Is Dave just trying to protect his brand, in your opinion? I mean, what's uh, you know, this is where he had a lot of his followers feel this way. I don't know where Dave is coming from these days. Dave, a year ago, said that Donald Trump should be put in jail as a war criminal and

a murderer indefinitely or something. And now he's, you know, all happy about Trump winning. Now, of course, it's okay to change your mind on a candidate like J.D. Vance changed his mind on Trump. But changing your mind on somebody that you think is soaked in blood, that they're a war criminal. I think he accused him of 500,000 deaths in Syria. There's some outlandish claim about Trump and all the blood he had on his hands.

That's not just the kind of thing you're just like, ah, changed my mind, you know, now I support him. You have to actually explain why you think that this murderer is preferable to Kamala Harris, who actually, I know she's the vice president, but she's actually not the decision maker even if you think that Gaza is a genocide. Nothing she could do about that. You might give her a clean

slate. Whatever. But he doesn't explain it. We've invited him on. Anyway, I just it gave me the creeps to have my name mentioned on this far-right anti-Semitism, known from the comedy cell. All his followers know him from the comedy cell right now.

He's the guy who was trying to smear Nick Fuentes and Dave Smith. Anyway, okay, your book. So the book is about the 1929 riots in Hebron, is that right? And essentially how nothing has changed, right? Here we are 100 years later, and it's the same narrative, and it's all about Al-Aqsa yet again, correct? So go ahead, tell us about the book. Unless you want to comment on Dave Smith.

No. Okay. I'd prefer not to. Okay. Yeah, so I started writing this book, Ghost of the Holy War, four years before October 7th. And when I was reading about and writing about the atrocities that were committed 100 years ago in British Mandate Palestine, I never even for a second imagined that we would see anything remotely similar to what happened there happened again. And on October 7th, I woke up and felt like I was

walking into the pages of history. I had spent four years researching when I saw the news from southern Israel. It was really just haunting how similar the atrocities were. Because in 1929, it was also 3000 Muslim men who marched through the ancient Jewish quarter of Hebron, one of the most ancient Jewish communities in the world, and, you know, raped women, teenage girls, slaughtered babies, children. And these people had been their neighbors, their friends, business partners, landlords. Many of the Jews who were living in Hebron, they rented their homes from Arab landlords, and it was their own landlords often who were leading the mobs, bringing these people to kill them. In other cases, it was their landlords who saved them.

So at least 200 Jews were rescued that day by their Muslim neighbors who risked their own lives to save them by hiding them in their homes or standing outside their doors and preventing the mobs from getting inside. Well, tell us more. How did the riots come about? Was there a catalyst? We should not forget to talk about what's happening in Amsterdam now also in relation to this. Did something happen which catalyzed the riots? And then how many people were killed? How many people were hurt?

Tell us more. Yeah. So what led to the riots was this whole year of propaganda that was spread by the leader of Palestinian Muslims under British rule. His name was Haj Amin al-Husseini. He was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, basically the equivalent of the chief rabbi of Palestine. And he was kind of installed by the British, right? Yeah, he was actually appointed by the first high commissioner of Palestine, a British official named Herbert Samuel, who was the most virulent anti-Semite and anti-Zionist in Palestine at the time,

he had actually been exiled already to Transjordan because he fled arrest after another riot that he incited in 1920. This is Arafat's uncle, I believe. Not his uncle, but his cousin and late many years later when um after the mufti had fled palestine he lived five years in berlin in a nazi finance estate he was the leader of the arab branch of joseph gobel's ministry of propaganda later after world war ii he was placed on the un's nazi list of nazi war criminals but he fled to cairo where he met his cousin Yasser Arafat and trained him. And then they both fled again. So this man has a very storied history. But back in 1928, it was he who began the rumor that still lives on today, and still continues to incite violence. And that's the lie that the Jews of Palestine were planning to conquer Al-Aqsa Mosque

to rebuild the ancient Jewish temple in Jerusalem. So he started that. Tell people, you know, the story of Al-Aqsa, which is actually built on, you know, give a nutshell of that. So Al-Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam, and it was built atop the ruins of the ancient Jewish temples in Jerusalem. Jews know it as the Temple Mount. Christians also know it as the Temple Mount. And it's named that because it was the site of the ancient Jewish temples. And so the Mufti began this rumor in 1928

that the Jews of Palestine planned to destroy Al-Aqsa Mosque to rebuild their ancient Jewish temple. And Hamas continues that lie today. He made it up out of whole cloth. He didn't pick up on it somewhere. There wasn't some radical Jew who suggested it. There was nothing. No, so what he did was he exploited the fact

that Jews who were praying at the Western Wall and being attacked by Muslims were protesting against the British for their failure to protect them from these attacks. And then the Jews who were doing that were calling for Jews to take over the Western Wall because it was owned by the Waqf, the Muslim Waqf, this religious trust that the Mufti oversaw. And so they were campaigning to the British to allow the British to let them control the Western Wall because it wasn't a Muslim holy site. Muslims didn't pray there. But the Muftis began a rumor that it was a Muslim holy site and that the Jews were trying to take it over

and that after the Western Wall, they wouldn't stop there. They would then destroy Al-Aqsa. And it worked. And at the time, before he started that rumor, the reason he did so is because he was being accused of corruption and nepotism and misuse of funds. Those allegations were true, by the way. He was using funds that were meant to be for religious causes. He was using them to build a hotel, which he built on top of a Muslim cemetery. criticism across the board and after he began that rumor and suddenly made all of the problems in Palestine for the Arabs of Palestine become a problem created by Jews, also

from Jewish immigration because Jewish immigration was increasing So this is like, who, what religion has a third holiest site? It's just kind of weird that you have a third holiest site It's just weird, like, you never Who's got a third holiest site? You can't name another you have a third it's just weird like you never who's got a third holiest site

you can't name another religion with a third holiest we have one really right who has a third anything like oh he's the third most important man you got the important guy right nobody ever says this so and so is the third most important man in the civil rights movement

nobody talks about the third of anything man in the civil rights movement like there's no way ever nobody talks about the third of anything in any other context nobody talks about third all right whatever um so this is an early you're right so this is like an early example of uh disinformation and the marketplace of ideas didn't uh manage to stamp it out, right? It exists to this day. And they believe it now, right? I mean, October 7th was named by Hamas as the Al-Aqsa flood for a reason, because that lie continues to be so galvanizing. Despite the fact, I mean, it's been 100 years. Israel, I mean, the Temple Mount is in Israel's control. If Israel really wanted to destroy Al-Aqsa and rebuild the Temple, then they're doing a. If Israel really wanted to destroy Al-Aqsa and rebuild the

Temple, then they're doing a pretty crappy job of it. I mean... Now, I don't want to jump around. So what prompted the riot? He said he gave the order for a riot, or...? So on Tisha B'Av in 1929, which was in August 1929, just two weeks before the riots erupted, Jews every year on Tisha B'Av, thousands of Jews would go to the Western Wall to pray. And this is, you know, the saddest day on the Jewish calendar. So 10,000 Jews went to the wall, to the Western Wall to pray, and they were surrounded by British forces to protect them from Muslim attacks. And then the next day, hundreds marched to the wall, protesting against the British failure to counter this disinformation, because the British controlled Palestine at the time, and they had appointed the Mufti, and they were doing nothing about

this disinformation, nothing about the attacks. The best they could do is just, you know, surround Jews while they pray to prevent Muslims from getting to them. But that was just this one day that they did that. And that march that they did to the wall was completely peaceful. It was actually a protest against the British, not against the Arabs. But the Mufti and his associates and the Arabic press painted it as violent. The Arabic press claimed that Jews had raped muslim women that they had cursed the prophet muhammad none of that had happened how do you know it didn't happen because the reports by you know foreign correspondents who were based there not jewish reporters you know just

testimony from you know in the new york, there were stories about this peaceful march, and also British officials testified. I mean, British officials who were there at this march. Okay. But in the Arabic press and, you know, Arabic leadership statements claimed that it was violent. And so a week later, there was no, sorry, the next day, there was this violent march by Muslims to the Western Wall where a rabbi was attacked, Torah scrolls were burnt, and so it kind of just escalated from there. to defend Islam with their blood. And thousands of armed worshipers flowed down from the mosque to the old city where they began to kill Jewish passersby, set fire to Jewish businesses. And the riots just engulfed Palestine, reaching every single Jewish community in the land.

The British had to evacuate pretty much every Jewish community, including Gaza. The only safe place for Jews was in Tel Aviv, which was an all-Jewish city. But even in Jerusalem, where the Haganah was active, the underground Jewish defense force, they could barely withhold the mobs. And the British ended up having to bring warships and planes and troops from across the British Empire to stamp out the riots. But in Hebron, which had been this haven of coexistence where Jews and Muslims had lived

together for centuries, the Jewish leaders of Hebron had actually told the Haganah to leave when the Haganah came to try to protect them. Two days before the riots, they came to warn them that this riot was going to hit Hebron. And they said, no, our neighbors are our friends. They won't hurt us. They'll protect us. And so it was there in Hebron that they suffered both the greatest casualties and the most cruelty. So of the 133 Jews that were killed throughout Palestine in just a matter of days, 67 of them were killed in Hebron and, you know,

the massacre was just horrific. Now, prior to that, had there been in recent time any of the tit-for-tat of violence that we know was going on between the Arabic and Jewish communities, you know, since the turn of the century. So there had been Arab attacks on Jews and there had been much smaller riots, like the one that... And Jewish attacks on Arabs. Not really. No.

Later than that happened? Later. That was later. Yeah. So that was, I mean, what happened after the massacre was that it radicalized the Jewish population because until then,

the Haganah was strictly a defensive organization. There were no attacks by the Haganah. There weren't organized attacks by Jews on Arabs. But after the massacre, as we've seen in so many rounds of violence, violence begets violence. Extremism leads to extremism on the other side. And that's what happened after 1929. So the Haganah

became much more of an organized force. And then a year later, you know, we saw the split of the Haganah into Etzel, and that was a much more offensive force. So instead of just serving to defend Jewish communities that were under attack from Arabs. They worked to wage counterattacks or preemptive attacks when they knew that an Arab attack was imminent. I mean, there is a common sense like credibility to the story. I don't believe it's true. We say, you know, we built this mosque on top of their most holy site, and why would we assume that?

Obviously, we know they want this land, they want to make it their homeland, and we're just going to assume they're going to do the same thing to us. They're going to get rid of our holy site to expose their holy site, which is what you would expect any most orthodox, extreme religious people do that kind of thing, especially back then. It wasn't these notions of extreme respect for other religions, right? So...

You're saying it was believable. I could see why it was believable. It was actually believable because they knew that Jews pray for the rebuilding of the temple. Jews, to this day, pray for the rebuilding of the Third Temple, but any Jew knows that Jews

aren't going to go and destroy the mosque to have it rebuilt. They believe that, you know, the Messiah will come and that with God's will, the temple will be rebuilt. But it's not something that, you know, they're actively working. All right. And you found like a trove of letters and stuff like that. What was that all about? Yeah. And you found like a trove of letters and stuff like that. What was that all about? Yeah, so the whole reason I began writing this book

was because a family in Memphis, Tennessee found this box of letters in their attic filled with hundreds of pages of letters written by their late uncle who was murdered in this massacre. And he described what Hebron was like before the massacre, the remarkable relations between the city's Jewish minority and its Arab majority. He described weddings and holidays when Muslim leaders and rabbis would dance side by side and this Jewish clinic where needy Arabs and Jews alike were treated free of charge. What was the difference in population numbers? Yeah, so in 1929, there were 800 Jews living in Hebron

amidst 20,000 Arabs. Today, there are still 800 Jews living in Hebron. Today, there are more than 250,000 Palestinians in Hebron. So it's a huge percentage of the Jews were killed. Yeah. Yeah, and a huge percentage of the Arabs participated in the massacre. I mean, out of 20,000 Muslims. Yeah. Yeah, and a huge percentage of the Arabs participated in the massacre. I mean, out of 20,000

Muslims in Hebron, 3,000 participated in the massacre. And only three people really paid the price for that participation. And those three people were and still are glorified

as heroes of the Palestinian cause. And I have a question. As a historian. This has come to mind a lot lately. There's so much inability to accurately report on events that have happened in the last few years, including October 7th.

How reliable do you feel our snapshot is of things that happened in 1929? the testimonies from the British Commission that was sent to Palestine and heard hundreds of hours of testimony from the Mufti, from Arab policemen, from British policemen, from Jewish survivors of the massacre. And so I definitely believe those testimonies and also when it comes to the survivors' testimonies and the victims' testimonies, they were just all so similar. I mean, it was clear that they had witnessed the same attack. And also children, you know, they testified what they had seen happen to their parents, to their own siblings. And, you know, the British, it was just really shocking to see how they were so interested in keeping the peace or keeping calm

that after this commission, they kept the Mufti in his position that they could have removed him from. And instead, they blamed this riot on the peaceful Jewish march to the Western Wall, saying that it sparked fears of, you know, Muslim fears of a Jewish takeover of their holy site. And they also concluded that Jewish immigration was a legitimate fear for the Arab population, despite the fact that Jews represented 20% of the population of less than 1 million people. I mean, 10 million people live in Israel today, and 1 million people lived in Palestine at the time. So these fears were not legitimate. I mean, these fears were, and when you look at what the Mufti was saying to his people at the time, it sounds just like the anti-immigrant

rhetoric we hear from people. Why were the fears not legitimate if the settlers, I don't mean colonialists, the settlers were coming over with the dream and goal of creating a Jewish homeland there? Because they weren't coming there with this dream of taking over the country. They wanted to create, it wasn't called a Jewish state then. In 1929, they didn't call it a Jewish state. Called it a homeland. They wanted to have a place where they could be safe from pogroms, which were bringing them to Palestine. And there were also many native Jews in Palestine. It wasn't like the entire Jewish population in Palestine then was from Europe.

I mean, within Hebron itself, it was a majority Sephardi Jews. Jews who had fled the Spanish Inquisition or Jews who had come from Iraq, Yemen. We have to cut them some slack, don't we? I mean, you know, there's nobody more Zionist than me. But, you know, just to be fair, we see in our own country how we're reacting to immigrants coming over. And they're not, you know, saying they to make this america into a homeland other than america and these are more simple people at a more simple time and a less uh sophisticated time and you have this population of people who your religion teaches you are kind of second class by

birth and um which is not really an excuse, but it's just true. And I could see the negative reaction. I forgive them the negative reaction. I don't forgive them the murder, but I would not. But doesn't it seem that these numbers of Jews were and continue to be so infinitesimal in comparison? Well, I mean, one could say, all they have to say, well, look how it wound up. I mean, one could say, all they have to say, well, look how it wound up. I mean, Israel is there

and it didn't end well for the people who were worried, so they could say, look, we were right. But no, I mean, what led to the creation of Israel in 1948 was this UN vote in 1947 to

try to alleviate the tensions that had been... Well, previously, also, 19... Was it 1937? Right, in 1937, the Grand Mufti turned down the first two-state solution. The Peel Commission, and that offered a very, very small part of the land. A part of the land, roughly in proportion with the Jewish population, I would imagine. Yeah, but compared to what they got later was i mean that would that was a that was a great deal there was there was i don't think i think it's fair to say there's no uh there's no deal they would have accepted no there's still no i believe this but you're saying in 1929 the idea of two states was not yet uh the goal it was just

it was british land nobody was nobody ever so the goal was just to have a a place where jews could live under under the british rule what was the what was the notion of the time yeah at the time it was seen as a place where jews could live with freedom of religion where they could be safe from programs because but under But under the British, was the long-term goal a British, a continued British presence? So if you look at the mandate for Palestine, which the British received from the League of Nations, embedded in that mandate was the promise of creating a Jewish home,

but it also promised the protection of the rights of the Arab community and their self-determination. So what the mandate sought was eventual self-governance for the people of Palestine. And in 1947, after the British decided to give up on Palestine, and long after they had also abandoned the Balfour Declaration and this promise of a Jewish home, the UN voted to partition Palestine into an independent Palestinian state for the Arabs and an independent Jewish state.

And Palestine would have been free for the first time in its history. I mean, it had never been independent before the British. It was ruled by the Ottomans, before the Ottomans, the Mamluks and the Romans, the Crusaders, the Greeks. But yeah, I mean, when you say like, look what happened, their fears came to life, but only because of their leaders rejecting that two-state solution in 1947, just like their leaders rejected this idea of living side by side in peace before that partition plan was suggested. I've seen the, and a lot of it I've learned since October 7th, but I've tried to imagine any Jew in, you know, the end of the 19th century or early 20th century suffering under pogroms and violence in Europe saying, listen, we can't live here anymore.

Why don't we go to live and expand our existing Jewish community in Palestine. It's always been there. And Israel, I mean, the Jews were a majority of the people in Jerusalem at the time, were up and down, sometimes the majority, sometimes a slight minority. But yeah, in 1929, they were the majority. Yeah, I think also in like 1880, they had been the majority. I don't know why it goes up and down. I don't even know how reliable the numbers are, right?

The same thing, like our census now, our sophisticated census is not all that reliable. Who knows how reliable? The point is that the Jews were, if not, what, are you crazy? You can't go live in Palestine. Who do you think you are? I said, what do you mean I can't go live there? There's tons of Jews there now. We've always been there. We're getting killed. Let's go live there.

And that's what they were being told by the anti-Semites in Europe. They were telling them and writing on their shops, get out, go to Palestine. As a matter of like, there's an unfortunate English similarity between the word colonize and colonial. And so in old Zionist letters and documents, they'll refer to themselves as colonizing. So you see, they're admitting they're colonialists.

No, colonize just means to settle somewhere. It doesn't imply a colonialist power. The Jews colonized. They made a colony in Palestine. They were not colonialist. And so you have two peoples there who don't like each other so much and both have a moral right to be there, which is why

partition was such a correct and practical and moral solution. But one side will not, in my opinion, will not give up on the dream of having it all. And I suppose we can all kind of see where they're coming from, but there's a moral obligation to be practical. If you look at all the bad decisions that they've made and how many people have died and suffered in this quixotic notion that they're ever going to get rid of the Jews in Israel,

it's just awful. And it continues to this day. Did they really think they're going to—actually, they really did think they were going to defeat Israel somehow, and they're going to divide it into cantons, and they'll put the Jews—the smart Jews will put them to work. And it's astounding. And they still think they're going to a conclusion. Yeah, they still think.

They've got a long game here. They're not— I mean, Thomas Friedman wrote today about how, you know, the Jews should get back to It's astounding. And they still think they're going to a convention. Yeah, they still think. They've got a long game here. They're not. I mean, Thomas Friedman wrote today about how, you know, the Jews should get back to their vision of Jews and Palestinians living side by side in peace. I'm like, Thomas, what are you even talking about? Is there any indication that's what they want? Who's their leader who says that's what they want?

None of their leaders say that's what they want. The thing is, I think, even if you look back to 1929, it wasn't the masses of Arabs in Palestine that were rejecting the Jewish presence. It was these leaders, and most specifically the Grand Mufti. At that time, there were other leaders that were in favor of cooperation

with the Jewish community and favored Zionism. They saw that Zionism was helping the people of Palestine, raising wages, bringing more industries to the land because the Jews had to. I mean, they had nowhere else to go. So when they moved to Palestine, they boosted the citrus industry. There were all these industries that hadn't really existed or hadn't been very successful before. And there were leaders, mayors of cities like Jaffa and Nablus, who favored cooperation and favored coexistence. And you saw it in Hebron. I mean, Jews and Arabs had lived side by side together for centuries. But that ended when this leader, the Grand Mufti, realized the power. They've weaponized disinformation to distract from their own failures to alleviate the poverty that their people have suffered from.

Don't we also in some way have to put ourselves in the minds of people at that time? It seems very unlikely, doesn't it, that these two tribes in a world where Europeans couldn't even live together without war, blacks are second-class citizens in America. There's not exactly Muslims and Hindus in India. There's actually maybe no example of tribes living peacefully, sharing land together we're all Americans and somehow that distorts our view of what's possible. To imagine that the Arabs and the Jews were going to live

together in some sort of kumbaya state together the tribal violence in Islam is bloody and completely outweighs, by factors of a hundred probably, the tribal violence between the Jews and the Palestinians in Syria, in Yemen, in Sudan, whatever it is.

They don't live well, forgive me, they don't live well with other Muslim tribes how were they ever going to live well with the Jews? It just doesn't seem plausible, it was never going to work and you know there was some idealistic Jews who wrote this stuff, there was some small Zionist movements that actually

thought that should be the goal but they were never realistic I don't think were they? Well those were people who were still living in the Gaza envelope on October 7th. All those kibbutzim were those idealistic people. Those weren't far right-wing haters of Arabs. Those were people who were driving Palestinian kids into Tel Aviv to get cancer

treatments and doing yoga classes with Palestinian women and taking in LGBTQ plus trans youth into their centers. So I think that those people were all slaughtered on October 7th. I mean, this story is exactly the same, right? Yes, it's the same. Is it true, I read a lot of people saying that 100 years ago, the only people that called themselves Palestinians were Jewish, and that the Arab-speaking population rejected the label Palestinian. So the label Palestinian wasn't even really used then. I mean, the Grand Mufti himself,

he had gone from calling for a greater Syria, which was what predated Palestinian nationalism. It was campaigning for Palestine to become a part of greater Syria, which never came to be. And then only after that dream of greater Syria failed, then he started to talk about, you know, Palestinian nationalism, but they didn't call themselves Palestinians, they call themselves the Arabs of Palestine. The Jews also didn't really call themselves Palestinians, but you know, the Jews of Palestine. They also referred to Palestine as Eretz Yisrael, the biblical name for Israel. And, but yeah, I mean, this idea that there wasn't a Palestine, you know, you hear that from far right people that there was never a Palestinian people or there's no such thing as Palestine.

This was an argument that my father, he finally came around, but he always is, I'm talking about in the 60s. He said, what do you mean Palestinians? They're Arabs. And it's true. Back in those days, was it Egypt and Sudan were, there was a pan-Arabism. Yeah. And various Arab countries were merging.

And they would talk about we're one Arab nation. And prior to the fight with Israel, there wasn't, they didn't identify as Palestinians. They did identify as Arabs. But, you know, nationalities are forged. And I think most people accept it now that there's a Palestinian nationality. Except for like far-right Israelis. My father came to accept it now that there's a Palestinian nationality, except for like far right Israelis. My father came to accept it. There is one, but other than

seething, vicious hatred of Israel, what unites them? I mean, the first Palestinian leader was the Grand Mufti, who allied himself with the Nazi cause, and I mean, it's interesting that if you look at I mean, it's interesting that, you know,

if you look at Palestinian history, it really begins with Zionism. And it was, Palestinian nationalism was a reaction to Zionism. So, I mean, the entire identity is based on this rejection of, you know, a Jewish state. It's based on a historical experience that is common to those people.

That's what, I mean, there was always a Ukrainian nationality, but that nationality is a hundred times stronger now because they've gone through this war. Now they're, you know, the Ukrainian nationality was always kind of, you know, people look at it and squint at it, but now it's clear.

They're dying for that cause. They're not Russians now, right? And that's how these things happen. And the Palestinians have an experience. That's how I see it. I'm certainly not an expert. But going back to the parallels between 1929 and today, I think one of the most chilling parallels, and we see it not just between 1929 and October 7th, but also with the pogrom

in Amsterdam, is this pattern of denial and victim blaming that follows every time Jews are slaughtered or chased down for being Jewish. After the massacre of 1929, Arab leadership simultaneously denied that there were atrocities committed and blamed those atrocities on their Jewish victims. So in Hebron, the Yeshiva students who were killed were accused of killing their fellow students to raise funds from the diaspora.

And then of course, after October 7th, we saw Hamas denying the very same things they filmed themselves doing yeah and then you know college you know kids on college campuses and academics blaming those same atrocities that they were denying blaming them on the people of israel even if they were like you said you know peace activists um they were blamed for what happened to them and and in amsterdam too they're saying that these uh israeli soccer fans were like so misbehaved and they were doing it and it's like okay i don't know if they were or if they weren't but even if they were how does that excuse we know that they were. I don't think that's in question.

It doesn't matter, is my point. I don't see how that excuses... I didn't say it excuses. I just said we saw a video of them tearing down the flag and we saw the chant of some sort of soccer chant, kill the Arabs or kill... It's horrible. I don't even know if it's horrible because I don't know what chants go around in soccer hooligan vibes, you know.

It sounds horrible to me, but it wouldn't be a surprise. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the kind of things that they all do, you know. I mean, my point is that it's irrelevant in so far as... Well, there's a fundamental question whether it was premeditated prior to this misbehavior it was we know that we we've seen evidence of it so so that's what that's it's irrelevant whatever bad behavior took place is irrelevant to what followed i think it's just sorry just to briefly address what you had said that now there exists a Palestinian

people that's true but that should be acknowledged and not there shouldn't be these fantasies saying that Jesus was Palestinian or that you know the Palestinian people are this oh that's just idiots on Twitter nobody well there's a lot of them

there is a lot of them that's why this guy there is a lot of them. That's why this guy, Jake Shields, scares me. These people have millions of followers. I'm becoming quite pessimistic about... That's why I said this LeBron thing was disinformation because...

I mean, we have to have totally free speech. I get that. But we're not effective at countering demonstrably false disinformation. And the stuff that these guys are saying on the right, this guy Bilzerian also talked about the Holocaust has been debunked. You know, the typical stuff. They couldn't have that many people die that quickly in ovens and the $6 million, the $6 million,

the $6 million number is no longer adhered to. And it pains me that somebody like Dave Smith, who you can tell is a nice guy, like even the way he talked about Nick Fuentes, you know, he seems like he's reluctant to be nasty. He's not faking that. And he's Jewish. He comes from survivors somewhere in his family.

That he is, I don't know, allowing these people into polite company by being nonjudgmental about them. But you're saying that you want to talk to these people also. You want to have conversations with... I want to counter them in a civil way. I don't want to say to them, yeah, I don't think you're an anti-Semite. Yeah, you seem like a nice guy.

I don't say things like that. No, well, some of them you said are nice guys. Well, one Jewish nice guy no you can't compare me to that I'm saying that anybody is out there writing

articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict that are consumed by hundreds of thousands if not millions of people is somebody that I would have on the show and debate with can I push back here? Jeff can I stop you? Go ahead you can permission I push back here? Jeff, can I stop you? Go ahead. You can. No, push back.

Permission to push back. Permission. You invited Norman Finkelstein not just on the show. You invited him to sit downstairs at the Olive Tree and have dinner with us. Yeah. He had the all-oxa-platter. That's, I mean, that's exactly what you did. Listen.

So, like, who, and when I'm like. You think I'm a traitor to the Jewish people? No, absolutely not. But it's like, I don't fucking want to have dinner with these people. You don't have to. But Noam has never publicly declared that this man is a great lover of Israel. His problem with Dave Smith is that Dave Smith declared publicly that he does not believe Nick Fuentes is an anti-Semite. No, I mean, I think Dave said, look, I don't know, is what Dave said.

And I'm not talking, like, I don't know all the minutia of what's going on with that, so I don't want to speak to it but listen all i'm saying there is a through line of um what's the word for like friendliness it's not filial that's like brother but uh anyway there's a through line of friendliness camaraderie camaraderie he's from these the worst of these far right i agree with people all the way to the Trump White House. I agree with you. Now, I don't think for a minute, as we see by his appointments, that Donald Trump is one of them. I think Donald Trump is very—I mean, I don't like the idea that the future of the Jewish people might depend on whether Jared Kushner can keep it in his pants or not.

But provided that Jared Kushner doesn't give Donald Trump any reason to hate him by cheating on Ivanka, Donald Trump, I think, is a very, very reliable ally of the Jewish people. I mean, we couldn't even imagine that he'd be appointing Marco Rubio and Stefanik and this other person, I don't remember his name, who's also extremely pro-Israel, defense secretary. I mean, this is, he's setting up. Hegseth or something? I don't know. Weird name.

He's setting up around him a good cop, bad cop situation like we've never seen. He's going to go talk to the Iranians or whoever it is that's on the other side and say, listen, do you see who I have around me? You think we're negotiating here? You know, so, but J.D. Vance, on down, I don't trust any of them.

And I think it would be very helpful if people like Dave Smith and Joe Rogan, who I don't believe are part of the anti-Semites, could be a little less naive. Like I said to David at the end, he finally goes, isn't it dangerous? Yeah, it is dangerous,

because you are normalizing them. You are giving them an entree into polite company. They don't belong in polite company. People who are Holocaust deniers and say any kind of things that these people are saying, it's not all fun and games. And that's the thing with comedians. They think everything is funny. It's not all fun and games. And that's the thing with comedians. They think everything is funny. It's not all

fun and games. Sometimes things actually go wrong. And that's what worries me. It's not all fun and games. So now Amsterdam, you're right. There's no excuse. I love it when you say that.

Did you read Tom Friedman's column today? Yeah. He said essentially, well, if Israel, he says it's anti-Semitic, but it's also a reaction to Gaza. And I don't know what a proportionate number of deaths would be in Gaza, but I know that Israel has definitely exceeded it. And if only they hadn't. I'm like, you know, okay, but the notion that there would be some proportionate number of dead Palestinians that would be

in the sweet spot where those Palestinians or those Arabs in Amsterdam would say, you know what? I think this is a proportion. It was only 10,000 women and children dead, so we got to give it to them. That was proportionate, so therefore we're not going to go on a Jew hunt. It's absurd. It doesn't mean that the Israeli army fought in a proportionate way, although I believe they did. It does not mean that. What I'm saying, it's absurd to think that even if Israel had done what Thomas Friedman thought would be proper and legal and sufficient to secure its own security interests,

there's no way that number would have taken the piss out of the anger of that Muslim hate mob. There is no number because it started on October 8th. Before Israel even went into Gaza, this anti-Semitism and rabid Jew hatred started. And accusations of genocide started on October 8th. And also, there were so many absurdities in that article. For one, calling this vengeance as if this war is just being fought by Israel and Israel is still just, you know, carrying out revenge right now in Gaza. There are rockets being fired from Gaza almost every day. And Lebanon.

And from Lebanon, exactly. And as though there aren't like hundreds of thousands of people who have been displaced in the north and who are still living in hotels because their kibbutzim were burned. Let's imagine a counterfactual. Let's imagine that a day after some horrible riots, not riots, protests against Israel where they burned Israeli flags and then that was the day that Sinwar decided to put a bullet in six hostages' heads or whatever it is. That Jewish Americans decided to go on an Arab hunt. People are like,

you can't go on an Arab hunt because the Palestinians killed your hostages. Nobody would ever even entertain the ridiculousness of that argument. Absolutely. And when posters of hostages were being torn down in the days after October 7th, if we had seen crowds of Jews in New York beating up, you know, Arabs or beating up college students, you wouldn't see the New York Times.

Or soccer fans. Right. You wouldn't see the New York Times paint that. No. There is a soft bigotry of low expectations. It's not that soft. Well, and it's,

you know, it's... Who coined that phrase? George Bush. George W. Bush, I think. That's the first time I remember hearing it. No. George W. Bush

coined that expression? I don't know who coined it for him. It's the first time I ever heard it said. There's just no earthly way he coined that expression. You don't know who coined it for him. It's the first time I've ever heard it said. There's no earthly way he coined that expression. You can Google it. You have permission to Google.

And, you know, we all do struggle with that soft bigotry because we do expect more of Jews than we do of, you know... Jew haters? We expect more of Western people than we do of non you know... Jew haters? We expect more of Western people than we do of non-Western people. We just do. That's the bigotry, but we do because we expect people who grew up around human rights and

all sorts of Western ideals to be less bigoted than... We're more tolerant. I'm more tolerant of the anti-Semitism of Arabic people than I am of the anti-Semitism of Arabic people than I am of the anti-Semitism of some white people that I would go to college with. I'm like, you know, you're supposed to know better.

You weren't raised this way. I mean, I can go the other way, too. Like, I tolerate crazy orthodox Hasidic views more because I know how they're raised. They're marinated in it, right? So I judge them less because I know they've been raised that way. But at some point, that doesn't hold up

because you can't say, well, therefore, it's our fault. They're going to, you know, going to Jew hunt, and we would never do it. It says it's a term used by George W. Bush attributed to speechwriter Michael Gerson. I don't know who that is. Why were you so adamant that there's no way that that was George Bush? There's just no way.

It's just the use of language that George, he didn't have that kind of facility with the language. It's too articulate. It's too graceful a phrase. Yeah, it's somebody with more of a facility with the language. Although a good painter, I hear he is. However, Abe Lincoln did coin the phrase the better angels of our nature. That wasn't like a phrase or a cliche or a...

He made that up, which I think is pretty cool. What if Abe Lincoln had said, imagine what can be unburdened, what has been, and would we actually think it was a great phrase? We made fun of Kamala Harris. If Lincoln or George... If Lincoln, like in the Gettysburg Address, said, imagine what has been unburdened.

What was the phrase? What can be unburdened. What Harris said that everybody was making fun of her. If Lincoln said we would have said it was great? Yeah. Maybe. Anyway. If he had said, don't underestimate me.

Don't underestimate. I'm just saying that like I have. Why are you holding a mic like a rapper? Because it's more comfortable and because I grew up in Queens. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. I just think that I personally am so past the point

of making excuses for this just obvious double standard and anti-Semitism. Yes, we all are. All right. Yeah, so the Amsterdam thing is just another...

I mean, what about sweden they were throwing people in the fucking river what about all the things that are happening in america i mean we have a big large spread out sprawling country but this thing's in chicago and it's yeah going on um and there were no soccer fans doing anything you know in poor behavior in sweden or in germany there was just a thing. And you're right, all over America. So what's the excuse for that? I do wish the frigging Israelis, knowing the scrutiny they're under, would act defensive driving, better defensive driving. Chanting out this thing about kill the Arabs is so irresponsible when they know people have cell phones

and they know that this is going to wind up on Twitter. It's, you know, we're supposed to be smart. It's not smart. Have you been to Bat Yam? I've been to Bat Yam. We're not that smart. By Bat Yam, that's sort of like the iffy. That's kind of like Staten Island, right?

Yeah. I got an offer, a gig, to live in the Marino Hotel in Bat Yam with my friend Don, and he was homesick and we turned it down. They put us up

for three months to play guitar. I don't think the hotels are there anymore. First of all, my in-laws live in Bat Yam. No further questions, Your Honor.

It is on the beach. It's really become sort of a much more desirable neighborhood now because it's on this beautiful stretch of water. But it is true that it's got sort of a rough and tumble.

Yadena, what is the prognosis, doctor? Is this conflict going to end? How is the war goingosis doctor is this conflict going to end how is the war going to end who's going to take Gaza do you get into that stuff or are you just a historian well I'm not a historian actually

I mean I guess you are now I'm sort of historian with this book but I'm a journalist and a novelist yeah so I do think that peace has always been possible like I said I mean it was possible in the early days during the British mandate And yeah, so I do think that peace has always been possible.

Like I said, I mean, it was possible in the early days during the British mandate when, you know, the Grand Mufti started to spread these lies. I think it was always possible when, you know, in 2000, when Israel offered a two state solution and Arafat turned it down. And in 2008, when Omer offered it and turned it down and in 2008 when Omer offered it he turned it down and I think that we can only see a change here when Palestinian leadership wants peace as much as Israelis want peace. I think right now under They do want peace, peace in the context of

no Israel. I mean there are and I've met Palestinians who do want peace in terms of an interstate solution but we need those people to become the leaders of their people and that'll only happen if groups like hamas and hezbollah aren't rewarded by the global media for what they're doing and i think that you know as a journalist i've been really horrified by the way this war is being covered and the way that you know it's just unthinkable that

there are still hostages in Gaza and nobody's talking about them and the the lack of a ceasefire is being blamed on Israel I'm not I'm no fan of Netanyahu but I mean Hamas has turned down every single ceasefire effort and when you read about this in the press, they make it seem as if Israel is the stumbling block here and not Hamas. By the way, there are still American hostages in Gaza as well. I think you're actually even too optimistic because even if 60, 70% of the Palestinians want peace, the other 30% will stage a coup and take over. And so long as Iran is there, Iran will destabilize any new Palestinian state. They will use it as a new base of operations.

We've said this before, it's not like a democracy where 51% gets to decide and that's critical mass. I don't know what critical mass is in a Palestinian state, but how are you going to stop 10% from firing rockets? It's going to take such a drastic change of heart. We're not going to see that. We're not going to see that.

Is anybody familiar with The Ask Project? It's a YouTube channel. The Ask Project. This guy Corey Gil Schuster. He goes around and he asks familiar with the ask project it's a youtube channel the ask project this guy cory gill schuster yes so he he goes around and he asks people questions it's not very scientific but it's interesting so one of the recent videos he posted but he asked questions like in um i was asking palestinian people do you want to ask israelis questions yes i don't so one of the questions is do you would you be okay with the two-state solution? And, again, it's not scientific, but it certainly isn't 60%. There was one guy that begrudgingly said, I guess so, if that's what it takes.

One Arabic guy? Yeah. And the rest were like, no, no, this is our land. And he was saying, okay, but what if the only way to get peace? Well, no, we'll keep fighting. And my guess is that's probably accurate in terms of the population as a whole. I would say maybe 10% would agree to it.

No, the polls show, there are these polls of the West Bank and Gaza that are considered somewhat reliable by social scientists, and they show fluctuating numbers higher than that, but not sufficient to warrant Israel taking a gamble with their future. And then, you know, and they don't even know what the terms are. Well, because the question isn't, do you support a two-state solution if the Palestinian state is not allowed to have a military? They don't ask that question.

I'm sure some people will fall off on that question. But obviously, they can't have a military, at least anything more than a police force. Nothing that could threaten Israel. Maybe at some point if they— A hundred years. Yeah, if they're good neighbors for a period of time. But then, of course, this is an honor culture. So you can't expect us to be a second-rate nation.

You guys get to have your atom bomb and your army and we have to accept. It's just what's going to happen? And who hangs in the balance? Not Israel. American Jewry. Jewry everywhere in the world except Israel actually I think is much more threatened by what's going on.

Because Israel will take care of itself. Israel's not going anywhere. Israel is not going anywhere. Remember is not going anywhere. Remember what Rudy Rockman said when he was here? Yes. Well, no. He said that you need one brave leader. Like Sadat?

Maybe. Yeah, but he got shot. Okay, but I mean, Martin Luther King. But he did make a peace agreement. Yeah, but yes. Israelis before that peace treaty was signed would have said what you just said. There's never going to be peace with Egypt. I mean, Egypt was one of the five armies that invaded Israel in 1948 and then attacked in 67. Israelis thought there was never going to be peace with Egypt.

And I think there's going to be. Egypt doesn't have a claim on the land. It's different. But it's not about land. Yeah. It It's different. But it's not about land. It's about religion. It's really not about land. It's about this idea that Palestine is pure Muslim land. And this is what you hear them saying themselves.

And so that's why it wasn't just a war between the Arabs of Palestine and the Jews of Palestine. It brought in the entire Arab world. And that's why we see Iran so invested in this, too, because it's an affront to Islam. When they say that they want to return to whatever village their grandfather lived in, say, in 1948. That's not a religious claim. That's a claim that they... I don't know how sincere that claim is. But Dan, my mother-in-law wants to return to the village that she came from in Iran.

Like, that's not going to happen either. Sender. I've tried to. But I'm saying that claim is not a religious claim. The thing is, though, what you were talking about before, this widespread notion among Palestinians. And I think you're right. I mean, I've watched his show and also I've read these polls that, you know, most Palestinians do believe in this idea that Palestine will one day just be this purely Arab land and the Jews won't live there anymore.

That's because that's what that's what they're being taught in school. And I think that's what needs to change, aside from these basic moderates being empowered. That's right. The education system needs to be completely de-radicalized. And that education system is being led not just by the Palestinian Authority, but by the UN. I mean, the fact that the UN's curriculum

includes the glorification of martyrdom and terrorism and this idea that the Jews have no history in the land of Israel, that Israel is this lie, this Zionist invention. I saw that with my own eyes, how this curriculum is being taught at UN schools. And so long as that continues, then you can't blame Palestinians for believing these things if that's what they're being taught by the UN. They're probably teaching that in the UN schools all over the world.

All over, yeah. No, not just in the West Bank. They're teaching it in our schools now. Right. Yeah. So I think we can see, and I don't know know I just can't really bring myself to say oh there's never going to be

peace we're just always going to have war I just feel like I can't how can we tell ourselves that well if there's going to be a change of heart it should be after this horrible thing I've said you know the Nakba this is

the Nakba was nothing compared to what these poor people have suffered in Gaza. And if they can go through that and not say, you know, we need to make a deal, you know. I think that, you know, I don't, I haven't read the polls or whatever, but I can't imagine that most regular people in Gaza don't hate Hamas. I mean, I think nobody suffers at the hands of Hamas worse than the Palestinian people. It's horrible. Hating Hamas is not the same thing as wanting to make peace with Israel. No, but you see that when they have the opportunity to speak out against Hamas, they do.

Without fear of retribution. Some do. You never know. You don't know. You don't know. Right? Nobody knows. You know, people can be of two minds. At one side of the mouth, they'll say they hate Hamas. They'll criticize Hamas.

But they'll also rally to Hamas' side because it's their people. They're not going to take Israel's side over Hamas. Well, with also the fear of being killed, though, right? I mean, it's really difficult to speak out against someone when, if you do, they're going to come and torture and kill your whole family. We know that Mahmoud Abbas has walked away from the table every time a serious deal

was put in front of him, including during the Obama administration. He has no interest. If he had interest, he'd say so. I don't think it's that they don't have interest. I think it's that they fear being killed. With good reason. Right.

And, you know, these people in Gaza who have spoken out against Hamas, we've seen how days later they're then beaten or tortured or killed. Yeah. And, you know, so long as that's the reality, we're not going to see a different kind of leadership. There is no peace deal with Israel that doesn't involve a total psychological humiliation

for the Palestinian people, given the narrative that they've been teaching. And they, in my opinion, they prefer the status quo to that humiliation of having to say, okay, Israel, we're too weak. You win. We'll take it. And we're going to give up on our homes. The Arabs in the West Bank, for better or for worse, they have a better standard of living than they expect. They know than they expect to have if Israel leaves.

I've spoken to Palestinians. They're not optimistic about what life will be like on the West Bank when it's ruled solely by the Palestinians. They're not stupid. They say they prefer to live under Israeli control because they know that their lives will be better economically, socially. I had a friend who told me, you know, they're all going to kill. We are all going to kill each other because whatever. That's what I'm not saying. They all feel that way. But they're very smart people.

When they come to America, they're very successful. You know, like these are not naive, unintelligent people. They have these emotional feelings about the conflict. But they're also capable of very like Sinwar. We know he's very cagey, very strategic, right? Also somehow motivated by total quixotic fantasies, but also thinking very carefully. And I would imagine that if you spoke to a lot of Palestinians, they are very aware of the idea that if there were ever to be an actual two-state solution that that West Bank nation

could just descend into a bloody civil war. So what is in it for them? They have the whole world on their side now. Israel's not going to unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank. I mean, Israel's never going to

just unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank because that... I sometimes wish they would. I mean, Sharon's never going to just unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank because that... I sometimes wish they would. I mean, Sharon was getting ready to do it, but I don't see how they can with Iran. If Iran was gone, I could see doing that. No, but Israel could never do that after October 7th because they saw what happened after they withdrew from Gaza. Yeah, I mean, Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, and look what happened. Well...

And the West Bank has a much longer border than Gaza and it's... Would there be a way to protect against that? I mean, of course, a lot of Gazans were working in Israel providing intelligence to... And many Palestinians from the West Bank work

in Israel. Oh, but they could shut that down and just say, we'll wall it off and that's it. I would say, we'll wall it off and that's it. It is walled off. Obviously, there was a huge intelligence and logistical failure on the border. They're not likely to make that mistake

again. If Iran were out of the picture, I would say that the risk of another October 7th would still be preferable to this occupation going on indefinitely. Again, because of the impact it's having on Jews all over the world. Like, what I'm saying is even a worst case scenario. And you told me, listen, if they do that, at some point in the future, there's going to be another massacre.

I say, all right, you know, we had. You don't live there. It's easy for you to say, all right. Well. And also, it's not just one massacre. I mean, these villages and towns in the West Bank and cities in the West Bank are so close to population centers like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem that it's not the same as Gaza. Yeah, you're right. It's just southern Israel that is next to these places.

They really can't live this way any longer. I don't know what's going to happen. They're going to have to come up with some kind of way to live in peace together. There's no other option. They don't want to live in peace. This is, you might as well, maybe Tom Friedman needs a resource assistant.

They have no interest in, as we know, Sinhwar was saying, we have them right where we want them. Well, I mean, that didn't work out very well for him, did it? Well, he died, but he didn't, until he died, he thought it was working out well for him. Listen, I'm not Muslim. I'm not Palestinian. I'm not Arab. I can't really put myself in their shoes. But the entire world has rallied to their cause now. It is not unreasonable for them to say,

this is our war. We're winning. If this is battle one, we have won this battle. Yes, we've taken some losses, but we've turned the entire world to our side. And if you look at the entire world under the age of 40, holy shit do we have the entire world on our side.

So, and this is a people that speaks openly about martyrdom. They don't, the death, they say we love death more than you love life. They actually say that. I think that the tides are turning. I think that, you know, I think it's easy to be we are the world no i think that it's easy to quote unquote be on your side from like the comfort of your office in some fucking city you know in oregon let me just say something to you. Wait. But this is important because you have to factor this in. This is a culture that in large numbers sends their children off to explode.

Right? And then the people cheer them on, compliment them, reward them, say in interviews, I'm so proud of my son. We can't, this is a problem. We cannot comprehend what is going on in their heads. You are looking at it in terms of the way you see the world.

Can you imagine any scenario where I could get you to send your little boy off to explode? No. No. No. But apparently it's not that hard to get them to do it. We know that in Iran they use their own children as landmines, to mine sweepers.

You have to process that. It's not a pretty picture. And, you know, I feel funny saying it out loud. I feel like it's bigotry. It's not a pretty picture. And, you know, I feel funny saying it out loud. I feel like it's bigotry. It's not bigotry. I don't mean to be bigoted, you know, but again, there's plenty of parents, I'm sure, who would not send their kids off to explode.

But a lot of them will. And that represents something that you have to take into account when you're trying to see it through their eyes. And that's why Israel won't unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank. you have to take into account when you're trying to see it through their eyes. And that's why Israel won't unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank. And

stay tuned. The story continues. Alright, listen, it was a pleasure to have you on the show. I have to confess, I didn't read the whole book, but I'm going to read the whole book. I have, since the election, I have been unable to read anything other than election stuff, Twitter or articles. I'm so fascinated by the election. So the book is called?

Ghosts of the Holy War. And it's available? Wherever books are sold. Thank you very much, Ardena. Thank you so much for having me. Good night.