The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table - Zach Zimmerman: Is it Hot in Here?

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

Noam Dworman, Dan Naturman and Periel Aschenbrand sit down with Zach Zimmerman. Zach Zimmerman is a comedian and the author of “Is It Hot in Here (Or Am I Suffering for All Eternity for the Sins I Committed on Earth)?” He is a Comedy Cellar regular and contributor to The New Yorker Magazine.

🎵 This is Live from the Table, the official podcast of the world-famous Comedy Cellar, coming at you on SiriusXM 99. Rudder! And, oh, thank you, Perrielle, for that laughter. And wherever podcasts are available, this is Dan Natterman. I'm with Noam Dorman. He's the owner of the ever-expanding Comedy Cellar. Now with a new room

expected in two more years or so on 6th Avenue at the former McDonald's. And we have Perrielle with us. She's the producer. Some call her the producer. Some call her just the booker. And on-air personality. And also

Nicole Lyons behind the scenes with sound. How is everybody today? We're waiting for Zach Zimmerman. Did you give me a bio for Zach? I didn't, but I can. Well, Zach Zimmerman, you know, he can explain why he's here. He wrote a book about growing up religious. Christian, I believe.

So it's good to have a little bit of non-Jewish energy on the podcast. Zimmerman's like German, not Jewish? Yes, yes. You recall the Zimmerman telegram from World War I? Maybe you don't. World War I? Yeah, there was something like the Germans tried to promise the Mexicans that they could have the United States if they...

Something weird like that. But anyway, it had nothing... But the Zimmerman was not Jewish in the Zimmerman telegram. And there's another comedian Zimmerman is not Jewish. And there's one that is. But in any case, Noam, I have a couple of announcements to make. Number one, I started drinking coffee

because I've heard that it has great benefits, not just mental health, but physical health. It's good for Alzheimer's. It's good for certain cancers, apparently, and for heart functioning and cardiac health. That's what I've read. I didn't know, cardiac health. That's what I've read. I didn't know any of that. Four cups maximum.

I only drink one because I'm new to the whole game. But it has been a welcome addition to my life. Now, what if it's decaf? Well, no, decaf doesn't have those benefits. So caffeine has the benefits? Caffeine. Can you get caffeine in other sources?

Yeah, but there's some other things in coffee too, but the caffeine is one of the main things. And then there's some other elements. Sounds like a superfood. Well, that's what I've read. How do you drink it? Blueberry coffee, really, is all you need. Well, I have been drinking it, iced coffee, because it's summertime.

And oftentimes I'll drink a mocha because there's no better flavor. And dark chocolate is good for you, too. Dark chocolate is good for you as well. They say 70% cocoa or more. Are you making this at home or are you going... I'm just going... No, there's a Kosar's Bagel right near me. I believe they have a few locations in New York.

It's excellent and their coffee is excellent. I don't like Starbucks. It tastes like it's burnt. Starbucks is disgusting. That's not even coffee. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But wait a second. Mocha is just, isn't that all sugar?

Well, I don't exactly know. It's dark chocolate, I think. Yeah, it's probably not as healthy. Do you put sugar in it? I don't. The mocha has sugar in it. Is it mocha just the coffee with dark chocolate? The chocolate has sugar in it. But dark chocolate doesn't have a lot of sugar.

That's why it's bitter. It's not dark chocolate. It's like the stuff that we make Benny's. No, that's not dark. I don't know what they put in there. That's what they put in when you go... Oh, calm down. Well, maybe I'll buy some dark chocolate, like some special like lint dark chocolate sauce.

It won't be. And I know what's in it and I can put it in my cup. Anyway, you can have a little sugar. It won't kill you for God's sake. It's bad for you. One has to balance out the positive effects of the coffee. Dan cut out sugar. I didn't cut out sugar. Who told you I cut out sugar? You told me you stopped drinking that ginger beer.

Cut down on sugar. Dan's thin. He doesn't have to worry about sugar. Well, sugar's bad for other things. Inflammation leads to all sorts of things. Psoriasis, which I have, very mild, but I can't seem to get rid of it. It could pivot and get worse. And also, Alzheimer's, once again, they say

is... You said it already. I hope you remember. I remembered. As I said, Alzheimer's, sugar's bad in terms of... Because inflammation... I should have hit that joke differently. I should have. I feel like Alzheimer's. Yeah. But, you know, that's the esprit de l'escalier.

Right? That's your favorite expression. My other announcement is I've started for the third time trying to read Crime and Punishment. I think I'm going to make it this time. Once I tried it in high school, and that wasn't going to happen because high schoolers shouldn't be reading that book. It's much too sophisticated for them. And I don't know why, as Noam and I were saying prior to the podcast, they make high school students read shit that they're not going to enjoy

and it's going to be a chore and they probably won't fully appreciate it. Yeah, the high school curriculum for literature is above the heads of where I was in high school, and I wasn't a dope. I read some Hemingway not that long ago, and I just couldn't believe I had been expected to understand this in high school. I just couldn't believe it.

What value is there really in reading? I mean, we take it for granted that reading enriches you intellectually, but is that really true? I think so. You know, to read, well. Well, I don't know about for girls. Oh, really? But, no, I'll say this.

But, like, my son, Manny, who's 10, has been reading Philip K. Dick. Oh, the sci-fi. Short stories. And we read out loud Nightfall, which is Isaac Asimov's short story. These are quite literary and quite good,

but he's enthralled by the stories. There's some symbolism in them, but... You okay, Dan? But not a lot. I don't know if girls take the science fiction the same as boys, but... I don't think generally they do. Basically, for them, it's like heavy metal music.

It's mostly a guy thing. But my only point is that there is literature out there which is quite good, which young kids will respond to, and the sun also rises. By the way,

Of Mice and Men, I thought was, I enjoyed it. They'll enjoy it, but will it enrich them? Like, what is... To Kill a Mockingbird was good. We liked that. But is this... You can't read that anymore. Even if a kid enjoys these books, does it make them smarter?

Does it enrich them in any way? How is reading, why is reading even something that we make kids do? Does it really make you smarter? Yeah, I don't know if it makes you smarter, but I think that— You've read a lot. I think that—I'm going to ignore Noam. I think that if you can give a child the gift of loving to read, it is incredibly— it's something that continues on your whole life

to get lost in a book. I mean, what's more amazing than that? I think it's good for their imagination. I think it's good in terms, I don't know. I just think it makes you think more critically. I think it gives you time to figure things out and you learn things like suspense and story and narrative. I don't know. Well, that's good if you want to be a writer. Well, even if you don't want to. Doesn't it give you a better understanding? It creates empathy and all sorts.

Well, there are books that, I guess, there are books, of course, that teach history, like All Quiet on the Western Front. Even though it's fiction, it teaches you a lot about the First World War, so I could see why that would be of value to a student. Just reading in general, I don't know. No, I mean just reading in general. I think... No, I don't mean to interrupt you. We said what we need to say.

So, in no particular order, first of all, writing is an important skill. And reading is... The more you read, I think the more likely you ought to be able to write well. That's for sure true. Okay.

I think that good literature, you know, enriches your way of looking at the world. It causes you to think about things. It causes you to view, by viewing a story and the conflict that characters have, you begin to think about,. It causes you to view, by viewing a story and the conflict that characters have, you begin to think about, like for instance,

The Scarlet Letter, which I never read, but I know a lot of people who had read it had a lot to say about what happened with Louis C.K. So there's this,

you know, and then if you have a curious mind, as you read various stories that have different settings and different times and places, you learn about the world. I mean, you can make the argument,

what does it all matter? We're all going to die anyway. You know, you can just sit in your room and play video games. And you know what? There is something to that for certain people who are not interested in that.

You're right. Why do we force them to do it? I know some smart people are not interested in reading. Most smart people are interested in reading. I don't know that. The fostering of a curiosity is a good one. That's true, to be curious about other people. How about a good documentary? That obviously carries value. Like, that's true, to be curious about other people. How about a good documentary?

I mean, that obviously carries value. Yeah, sure. It's not the same thing as reading, though. There's something about reading that is singular and important. I mean, I think it teaches so many skills. Is that supposed to be funny? It does, I suppose, enrich your vocabulary, which is something I never cared about, but

Noam seems like, for some reason, Noam is interested in having a vocabulary. Do you know how much fun I have pointing out when Periel uses words incorrectly? Nothing gives you more pleasure. All the reading I've done makes that worthwhile.

To think that I wouldn't know how to use certain words that she doesn't know how to use. What about... I have a normal adult vocabulary and I feel no need... That's not true. Your vocabulary is

so much more sophisticated than the average person. Whatever my vocabulary is... much more sophisticated than the average person. Whatever my vocabulary is. You're much more perspicacious. I feel no need to. The last thing in the world I feel a need of is learning more vocabulary. Okay. Cormac McCarthy died yesterday. That's correct.

Now, I had just happened to be reading. All the Pretty Horses. Yeah, I read All the Pretty Horses. I read Stella Maris, and I read The Passenger, and I'm reading Blood Meridian. Wow, you really read a lot of his books. And I just got into him over the last few months. I didn't even know he existed, which apparently is crazy because he's very famous.

But I had no idea he existed. Okay. I mean, I've heard of him. He's famous. Talk about a vocabulary. I cannot get through a... And I'm not being hyperbolic. Are you being glib? It's like when you inject somebody. I'm not being hyperbolic. Are you being glib?

It's like when you inject somebody. I'm not being hyperbolic. I cannot get through a paragraph or maybe three paragraphs without having to look up a word that he uses. And every word he uses, I want to say, oh, why did you use this word? It's the perfect word. Well, it's not the perfect word if you've got to look it up and ruin the rhythm of the reading.

Well, you could say that. I get that. But I enjoy it because I'm learning, not that they stay with me anymore as I get older, but ostensibly, I'm learning these very, very precise words for many things in the world

that I didn't know had precise words for them, you know. And I enjoy that. Which is fine, except when you use it in a conversation and no one understands it, and they think you're being, you know, kind of arrogant. Well... Brag, you know, boastful. Knowledge is its own reward.

Okay, fair. Knowledge is power. reward. Okay, fair. Knowledge is power. Yes. Anyway. So what words have you learned? I can't remember. I can't remember is amazing. Like the frizza,

the hammer on the gun that you pull is, I'll make a list of them for next week because on my Kindle. Well, that's like a technical term that any gun person would know, I suppose. There's a lot of words. On my Kindle, it stores every word that you've looked up. Oh, wow. That's cool. So I will bring in the list of words and I'll test everybody out.

That's really cool. I love that. Dan, you know, I'm surprised a little bit because you've written a book. Correct. I didn't say reading isn't fun. I said why is it a subject in school? No, but, and I think that you probably would also say

that you're particular about the words that you used in the book. I mean, it's, and also on stage, right? I use words that people are... I hope people will understand. I don't go out of my way to use a word that most people don't know. And furthermore,

usually you can use a couple of words and get the same point across. I mean, if you really need to make a precise point, I don't know that you're missing anything by not having a vocabulary like William F. Buckley Jr. Well, perhaps. He would use words. It was kind of like his shtick, so it was kind of funny. You know, Buckley.

I know him. I have my Kindle. There was a word that I read yesterday in this book about Israel that I felt I should have known. I'd heard it before, but I couldn't remember it. And if I could get it, maybe when Perry is talking, I'll look at it. I'll try to find it. So what else? When's Zach Zimmerman coming?

He'll be here shortly. What time is it? In the meantime, Noam, any feedback on the new website? Are people loving it? Well, there's a whole thing because it's not totally populated with pictures and people are upset. They're not represented in the slideshow. They're upset.

But I think, what do you think about it? We invite everybody to go look at it. I mean, you know, I like it. You know, yeah, it's nice. And I mean, as far as the slideshow is concerned, I'm in one picture, but I didn't send in any pictures. But I don't expect to be well-represented in the slideshow because I'm not well-represented on the schedule.

But you're in the slideshow. I'm in the slideshow. I think Zach Zimmerman is here. Is Zach here? Yeah, it's a nice website. You know. But it's not intended for me. It's intended for the customers.

Right. Oh, my God, Gary. Again, you know, if it enhances their experience, then that's really the most important thing. Well, don't you think it's much better? I think it's great. Yeah, I think it enhances the experience. I think it's great.

I think the customers will enjoy seeing all the pictures of all the celebrities and all the comics that are on the slideshow. That's the best part of it, really, right? I mean, that's the – Everything else is a little bit cleaner, a little bit more slick, but... Yeah, I think it presents the comedy seller in a way... First of all, the websites of the other clubs are so terrible.

They just have... Can you bring up... I bet I guess I shouldn't do that. Well, you already started doing it. You might as well go all the way. No, no. But if you go to the websites of the other clubs, not that I think it matters, they're very like a strip mall template. If anybody knows about web designing, you can just download templates.

They're like content management templates. I think it's great. The seller website, as we're doing it, is replete and filled with a lot of candid shots. People that you wouldn't expect, like Jim Norton hanging out with Robin Williams and Billy Crystal and people having fun. There's a lot of stage shot,

but it's more offstage shots. There's John Lasseter. That was great. Yeah, we'll be back. Now, the slideshow is not ready yet. Aside from what I'm talking about, they're supposed to allow me to have parameters. So, for instance, when there's group shots like that one,

I want to linger on them a little bit longer to give people a chance to identify who's in the shot. That's great. That's a good idea. And I also want to add little snatches of video that I have from, like, 90s VHS videos. So it's not quite where I want it to be yet. I just got so fed up waiting that I just put it.

That's my daughter with Kevin Hart. It's like Dave Chappelle, Ray Romano. There's Dan Natterman. There's Liz pouring alcohol into Ari Shaffir. Who is that? Taylor Tomlinson. That's great. Charming Rich Voss.

There's Jay McBride. So like, you know, it, it, it's me and John Mayer playing guitar. Um, there's, uh,

Louie. So, so anyway, so I, I, I just, I just think it really presents the comedy seller as like the community that it is. That was really the intention.

So I don't know. So go ahead and introduce Zach Zimmerman. Some people don't know about me. I have that disease where you can't, uh, remember people's faces. It's called narcissism. It affects four out of five queer people. It's really serious. And one of the main symptoms is you Google yourself a lot. So I'm very aware of all the Zach Zimmermans in the world. There's a Zach Zimmerman in Tennessee who wants to be an actor. I don't know what you're doing in Tennessee if you don't want to be an actor. There's Zach Zimmerman who works in tech. But the biggest threat to my brand is a fictional Zach Zimmerman.

There's a fictional Zach Zimmerman, the main character of a self-published novel called Wet Goddess by Malcolm J. Brenner. This is all completely true. And I'd love to share just a little story time about why this might be an issue for me. Wet Goddess by Malcolm J. Brenner. Literally chapter one. My name, please get this right, is Zachary Zimmerman. Uh-oh, okay.

And before I level with you about Ruby and me and all the strange, sad, and beautiful things that happened to us, let's get one other detail straight. I never intended to fall in love with a dolphin. So speaking of, we talked a little bit earlier, Zachary, you were in here, about literature,

the benefits of literature, and why we make students read books. Not that reading books isn't fun, but why do we make kids do it? And we discussed that. Anyway. What was the thesis? Well, I said, you know, I mean, reading is all fine and good, but why is it a topic in school any more than

watching documentaries or, you know? But the conclusion was that reading can introduce you to different times and places in history. If it's a historical book, it can teach you vocabulary, of course. It can teach you to different times and places in history. If it's a historical book, it can teach you vocabulary, of course. It can teach you curiosity. Well, maybe it can teach you curiosity.

I think it does, and I think it teaches you empathy. And if you want to be a writer, it helps you become a good writer. They do say people who read novels are more empathetic, and I think that's been shown. It might well be. Well, this is not a novel. But cause-effect is hard to... True. I think that's been shown. It may well be. Well, this is not a novel. But cause effect is hard to... True.

I think they promote deep thought. Like, you can learn a lot from a documentary. Any sort of one-way communication where you're just passively consuming it doesn't require as much of you. But when you're reading a book, you have to be more active. It may well be that reading a book is good for your brain in terms of its exercise. So we've talked a lot about it in this show, about Alzheimer's and how to keep it at bay, because some of us are north of 50.

But in any case, or even north of 60, but in any case... I'll remind you of your jokes if it comes to that. So I don't know. They say learning a second language is good for your brain. I don't know if reading is in general good for your brain. I'm sure it must be. Anyway, but Zach Zimmerman has himself written a book. It's not a novel, but it is a book.

It is a memoir. Is it hot in here, or am I suffering for all eternity for the sins I committed on earth? A quick but dense read coming in at 148 pages. Clean 148. Get them in and out. It's a quick quick read it caused some initially the page length caused some drama because in my mind i was like a book is 200 words it has to be or 200 pages it has to be 200 pages right and the publisher was like we can make

it 200 pages and then they made it 200 pages and they printed it and it looks like large print font or like people who have difficulty reading well i you, some people enjoy a quicker read. And take your time. It jumps all over. Look, The Old Man and the Sea, I think, is about this long. A shorter, I think. Considered one of the great works of literature.

And people are saying that about my book, actually. You know that novels are getting longer. In the old days, people wrote... Great Gatsby was like 200 pages. I think Of Mice and Men was pretty short. But nowadays, people, I just, just like, just like the sizes of soda. So to the size, well. I love a little tiny soda. Anyhow, is it odd near, am I suffering all eternity for the sins I committed on earth?

I don't know the answer to that question either. And I've asked myself that in not so many words. But welcome, Zach, new author. Do you know what the word C-A-V-I-L means? C-A-V-I-L. Caval. Is that like a Mediterranean restaurant? Is it like something like a...

Fast, casual? Is it? Well, I know that in French, en cavale means you're on the loose. Like cavalier, right? Well, I don't know if that's where it comes from. I know what you mean, on cavale means you're on the loose. Like cavalier, right? Well, I don't know if that's where it comes from. Is that what you meant? You're fleeing.

Sounds a little like cabal. You're on the loose. You're like a fugitive. Isn't it to make sort of like petty objections? She looked it up. She didn't even have enough reputation for a minute. So this is an example of a word. I read it yesterday.

It came to me. And it says he ignored their cavilling, I guess. I don't know. It makes petty or unnecessary objections. They cavilled at the... Now, that is a good word. That's a good word to describe something that you do put up with. We're talking about why would somebody use a fancy word and why do I like it?

Because that's exactly the right word. Oh, you like a fancy word. I like it when I— Exactly the right word is only any good if people understand it. That stands point as good. Nobody's going to know what that means except for me. Right. So I might have to—depending on my audience, I'll explain it to them.

But the point is that there are big words, which is another word, which is just as good. Like bespoke, when you can say custom made. That annoys me. What about germane? Is there any need for germane when we can say relevant or pertinent? Germane might have a different context. I'd have to think about that. But anyway, but the word cavil

like, stop your petty and unnecessary complaints it's a good word and so if I'm reading it in a novel and then I look it up and I realize, at that point I'm saying, no, that's I appreciate him using the right word and I'm getting better

by reading it, and there's always this little trade-off, but I don't find it to be pretentious when I realize that actually the word is perfect. That's all. There's a guy going on Twitter. Well, anyway, let's talk about Zach's book. No, no, I want to talk about this TikTok I saw yesterday. You went to an Ivy League school. Princeton.

You went to Princeton. Zach, by the way. The most non-Jewish of all the— We had a Center for Jewish Life. Yeah, I know, but nobody attends. By the way, Zach and Periel have the same color nail polish, both black. Oh, yes. We also have the same literary agent.

We learned that yesterday. He wants to know where your proposal is. It's on a plane. You have a clip recently on Instagram. I forget the joke now. It was really funny, though. Do you want to know what it was? I mean, I post all the time.

Give me some idea. No, we posted it. We're about to post it. We clipped it for you. I'm sure we wouldn't do it without you knowing about it. Then it hasn't happened yet. So anyway, I guess he sent it to me first to approve it, then they're going to send it to you. It was really funny. And I sent it to Jamie Kirchick, because he's the one who recommended

you here, the writer. Oh, Jamie. Yes. Oh, my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. New book, or relatively new. Yeah, yeah. The Secret City about gay Washington.

Yeah. I've been here two years. Is that crazy? That's crazy. It'll be two years in June. So he says he wants royalties for your book. Royalties? Nah.

Well, I'm going to look up the clip. So actually, can I say... Go ahead. Go ahead. Tell us about the book. Tell us about the book. Carol Oates says a, quote, warmly engaging memoir

in the guise of stand-up comedy. A bittersweet sort of humor, droll and self-aware, painfully yet funnily candid, a voice of disarming frankness and intimacy. I don't read blurbs. I don't read blurbs.

Stop with your blurbs. Can I see that? Joyce Carol Oates wrote your blurbs? I don't read blurbs. Was she a professor at Princeton or something? She taught me in a class at Princeton. But everybody knows that those blurbs... Finally, that degree paid off.

Everybody knows those blurbs are bullshit. No, that's not true. You need blurbs. Yeah, you need blurbs, and the publisher says, look, give me a blurb. It's sort of a pyramid scheme. First of all, you need blurbs. You're dismissed.

I know. I'm sorry. I connected the dots too late. I had no idea. What? Okay. The first, I was wondering. What?

My lit agent, he's his lit agent, so it was all kind of weird. So I do want to hear about Hell Hath No Fury like an ex-Bible Belter turned New Yorker. I want to get into this with you. But his first blurb is by one of the few people who are really persona non grata

at the Comedy Soul. Uh-oh. He might be the only person. I don't know if I can think about anybody else. There's really... When my bookings dipped a little,

I was like, is this because... It says, a charming, funny, resoundingly queer collection of bite-sized stories that go down smooth. Oh, is this Branham? Branham. It's a perfect summary Is this because... It says, a charming, funny, resoundingly queer collection of bite-sized stories that go down smooth.

Oh, is this Branham? Branham. It's a perfect summer read. You'll fall in love with Zach. Guy Branham. Back to falling in love with me. I think that's really the headline here.

Now, Guy Branham is the guy who wrote... Is he a friend of yours? We're like Twitter mutuals and we have the same lit agent. Right, I heard that. By the way, you don't have to co-sign us, but Guy Branum is the guy who wrote this article in Vulture magazine

where he accused the seller of being anti-gay and anti-women, although he had never actually been to the seller before. I think he was confusing the store and the seller. No, he was not. And he said it's the men's club that covered for Louis C. I mean, it was just untrue and spurious accusation after accusation. Now, to his credit— This isn't cavil.

This is spurious. This is caviling, yeah. So to his credit, I will say he did—because I threatened to sue, he came in and did do our podcast. He did? Yes, he did. And he got, I mean, he took a beating. But, everybody should check it out online. It's one of our best podcasts.

Where was I? It was before your time. But he, then at the end, I offered to let him go on stage in the cellar, and he wouldn't go. And then it gets worse. That's an honor, to be honest. Then when we, because you don't know me very well, but I'm actually a kind of person who likes to put fights behind me

and offer olive branches. And when we had our, and I felt like he didn't, maybe he didn't know, whatever. So when we had our TV show this week at the Comedy Cellar where we had political comedy. I asked the producers to contact Guy Branum to see if he would like to do the show because it was perfect for him. And actually, I had checked out his stand-up and he's funny. Oh, very.

Yeah. And he wouldn't do it. And I thought that was small of him, and I felt like he'd rather be able to hold on to this bullshit story he's created about the club than to have to kind of admit, oh, actually, they're all right. I did their show, but a lot of people,

they don't want to give up their thing. But anyway, but he is funny. Why did he agree to come on the podcast then? I don't know that this is the reason he agreed. I will tell you, I sent him a podcast. I sent him a thing asking him to threaten to sue Vulture

and ask him to come on the podcast. And then he wrote back, we will agree not to sue if I come on. Hey, that's powerful. I'm pretty sure I got that right. I would like to preface before we get into the book that Zach Zimmerman, it just dawned on me, has a sound alike that works here at the Comedy Cellar.

Josh. My voice? Yes, Josh Johnson. And you have the exact same voice. Josh Johnson. Yes, there is something very similar, yeah. Really? Definitely tonally a little lower.

I think today I'm a little lower. If we can maybe... The speed and tonal range. If we can... I can go up here too, you guys, if we really want to get to the bottom of this. He really didn't get up high, right? But he has a little bit of a New Orleans...

If you want to play a clip, play a clip. If not, listeners can look it up, but that's your vocal doppelganger. So let's start from the beginning. So you were born where in the Bible Belt? I grew up in... Technically Bible Belt. Listeners can look it up, but that's your vocal doppelganger. Let's start from the beginning. So you were born where in the Bible Belt? I grew up in technically Bible Belt. I guess Southern Virginia, Roanoke, Virginia, this little valley surrounded by mountains.

And this was a religious home? Religious. Dad was a pastor, assistant pastor, and raised me to believe I was going to hell for most of my childhood. So let me stop you. This is an interesting question. So in a religious home, how sincere is it? Like how much hypocrisy goes on in a religious home? Is there really a – is it a legit goodness at heart that guides a religious home?

Tell us about that. I don't think we can only talk about his home. What's funny now, i think my parents don't really go to church which i think is so funny they're like so religious but they just like they practice their religion watching youtube videos and reading the bible on their own i'm like but you're not part of a community that's like the best part of a church like knowing people going to a barbecue and so i as a kid wasn't maybe as tuned into like well you said this and you said that, finding the hypocrisy. Now I can start to see a little bit of it. But they were pretty, like, earnest in everything they believed.

That's a good word. They were earnest. Oh, a thousand percent. And believed literal every word of the Bible in their interpretation and were eager to share it with me so that I didn't burn in hell for all eternity. I mean, everybody finds themselves being a hypocrite at one time or another, but that's different from being a knowing hypocrite, like one of these Jimmy Swagger types who's cheating people, right? Right, right. And I think a lot of nonreligious people assume that that's where all these people are, but I have suspected that's not the case. These are just the crooks, like there's crooks in every community. Right, right, right.

Yeah, I don't think my dad or parents were trying to cheat anyone out of anything. If anything, they were trying to save my life. It was out of genuine love that they believe these things, and they want to pass them on to their kids. By traumatizing. A couple more questions. Now, a lot of these people, especially the Southern Bible types, are associated with racism. But racism, at least by the way today, the way Christianity is

interpreted today, this is anathema to the teachings of the Bible, racism. So what's your insight? Are these people generally more racist than others, or are they more loving their fellow man than others? Religious? Or Christians? Yeah. Oh my goodness.

I think politically, sometimes people stir up animosity and point it towards different groups over time so i think uh hatred's been directed towards black people or towards other folks to distract people from hey you're poor and you're suffering and we can't do anything from you but But that mixes the religious and the political, I think, a fair amount. Because when it came to Jews, for instance, in my father's generation, Christians were the most vehement anti-Semites.

But there really is a change. It's not the way it is now. The church seems to have really sincerely changed its view about that. Yeah. It seems to me when I read about it. I remember when I was looking into – Mel Gibson had that movie, The Passion of the Christ, which was based on this really anti-Semitic book by the Dolores – I don't remember. But anyway, I just remember doing a lot of reading about it at the time and coming to, and, and coming to the conclusion, my goodness, these, these Christian people really don't feel that way. Like they really didn't read

it as anti-Semitic and they, and they really didn't want it to be anti-Semitic. They really seem to have internalized the, the kind of change from the top. Well, the question is, the question is, is, is it telling somebody, whether they be Jewish, whether they be gay, that if you don't change your ways, you're going to hell, so you better change your ways. Is that hateful or are they trying to help? It can be both. Oh, yeah. Did your family believe that you had to be baptized to go to heaven? Oh, yeah.

All Catholics go to hell. In our book. And Jews. And Jews, yeah. Sorry. Okay. So does that, so. Hell was very well populated.

And what is hell exactly? Wait, wait, wait. So what is that? So this is that? So this is interesting. Like, how can you feel that Jews are going to hell but also love Jews? Or like, what's the complexity? You're trying to help them not go to hell.

Right, right. They would say love the sinner, hate the sin. But they're not even sinners because it's not their fault they're not baptized, right? It is, I guess you're punished as an individual, even though it is the sin of Adam that's been passed down that condemns you to hell for all eternity. We're like the dreamers. We're brought here. The dreamers are the immigrants who were brought by their parents, and now they're illegal. That's us.

We're the dreamer religion. What is interesting, my parents... You can convert. You have to tell me where this comes from. But my dad was very big on, like, God's been good to America because America defends Israel. At the same time thinking all Jewish people go to hell. But he was very pro-Israel in that way. Right, because Jerusalem is also holy to Christianity. You're going to get mad at me for saying this. I don't like, is there at no point that somebody's like,

guys, this is like nonsense made up, like cockamamie. If I had any courage as a kid, I would have said that. Well, what was your take? Oh, I ate it all up. You knew you were gay from a young age. I actually didn't experience queer desire until college. Oh, really? I don't know if it was super varied.

So at that point, did your parents say, look at this? It was, Zach. Well, back up. You didn't experience, you said queer desire? Queer desire. Is that the term of R&L? Or whatever. Maybe there weren't hot guys in Virginia,

but it wasn't until college with the beach volleyball boys with their shirts off. I was like, oh, wow. So let's say you were masturbating at 14, what were you thinking about? 15, 16. 15. You were thinking about women?

Men? Women. Women. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took him so much longer to come, though. The first time I came was inside a woman. Me too. We'll be done.

The first time you came, you were... Yeah, no masturbation. I didn't really know what masturbating was. Would you qualify yourself as bisexual then? I'm leaning there a little these days. How did you came here? Yeah, no masturbation. I didn't really know what masturbating was. Would you qualify yourself as bisexual then? I'm leaning there a little these days. How did you not masturbate? I said no. It's a sin. I got an erection and I was like,

oh, that's kind of fun. You just found somebody to put it in? This is fascinating. I always assume that you always know what you're attracted to. I used to get an erection. I watched Star Trek and Hot Aliens. Oh, my God. And I didn't even understand why. No one's attracted to aliens. Some people are into that.

Okay. This is your shocker. You know, maybe he was. A little bit. Maybe he was. That got you going? It still does today. That music.

Maybe he was suppressing it because he knew that it wasn't supposed to be due. And I'm like, how much was buried? Because when parents don't support or encourage, you want their approval. And so the desire has to, like, I don't know, you have to really want their acceptance. What you feel has to be bigger than you want. Were you aware as a kid that Christianity, according to that interpretation, was anti-gay? Yes. They told me homosexuality is a sin over and over and over and over and over again.

And I didn't know any queer people as a kid. But your parents must have known you were a little zesty. I've asked. Wait, zesty is actually the word TikTokers use. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. I've asked. I went home.

I was like, Mom, was I into feminine stuff? She's like, no. My 11-year-old daughter told me that my six-year-old, she said, daddy, I think Benny's a little zesty. Oh, you're plugged into, is 11 Gen Z? Or is that even

a further generation? Well, I've never heard zesty as a word. It's a great word. I know. I've heard it described like tortilla shit, like, you know,

like hot and zesty. I think it means gay, right? She meant it means gay. How many siblings do you have? The zesty to me is... The three of us. Let's not all bombard him with questions. Let's keep a nice, coherent through line.

Yeah, yeah. Stop asking me interesting questions about my life and let's talk about the definition of zesty. We're done with the definition of zesty. Oh, we've moved on. Well, Periel's... We have to keep it coherent. Wow, silencing women on the podcast.

Dan Aderman. Come on, continue your mansplaining, Dan. Go ahead. Well, it's not a matter of siding. You know, Periel and I have a podcast that we do together, and she is free to guide the conversation on that podcast, but here she's actually technically just a producer i have an older sister younger brother younger sister so when you knew you were gay in college and you you knew that you were going did you

believe you were going to hell and you didn't care because it was just too strong an urge freshman years when i stopped believing in god conveniently when you started believing conveniently when you did all sort of all it took was kind of like a year away from my family to kind of like start to come into who i am in lots of different ways and i like lost a friend of mine and feel like that shocking stop believing in god as opposed to just uh abandoning that particular religion right i was like the whole thing yeah let's throw it away. But then I majored in religion. I was like, oh, I'm actually interested in studying what other people believe.

So I got into Buddhism. Yeah, I majored in religion. And I'm still curious to this day about how people make meaning in their lives, whether it's inorganized supernatural beliefs. I'm with you. You believe in God at all? We've had this discussion. I ask me questions to which you know the answer. You know I don't believe in God. Because the listeners might... Well, you. There's no... You believe in God at all? We've had this discussion. I don't remember. Why are you asking me questions to which you know the answer?

You know I don't believe in God. Because the listeners might... Well, you could say, Dan... Again, nobody cares. No, you could say, Dan, you're an agnostic or an atheist. I'm probably an atheist, except... Well, that's what I'm asking.

Which one are you? Well, I mean, atheist, does that mean you have to 100% not even consider the possibility of a God? What's more likely? That these UFOs are real or God is real? UFOs that have been in the news lately. They're both equally as unlikely.

But, I mean, I guess there's a... If Trump knew about UFOs, we would have all heard about UFOs. I can't bring myself to say that absolutely, without question, there's no God. Then you're agnostic. But I think the word... I'm not sure that the word atheist is used that strictly. I think if you're 99.9999999999% sure there's no God, that's more or less atheist.

We need a new word. And what are you? I believe that something exists. For sure. I'm with Zach. I think it's, I would stake anything on it that does not exist. That's nothing. I think it's possible

that our consciousness comes back in some other form. And why do you think that? I think that only because I know for sure that I came into existence once. It happened. So I can't rule out that it could happen again in the infiniteness

of time and space. An octopus is conscious. Well, I might come back as an octopus or a dog, assuming they're self-aware. Do octopuses get you going? Get me going? Yeah. How is hell described?

You talk about fire. The cover of the book is you're on fire, so is hell described as fire? Hell is separation from God. You are away from God. And yeah, so there is the burning. My dad would tell me this. The burning and gnashing of teeth. And then he would act it out. He'd be like... Is that sufficiently scary

to deter you? When you're a kid? Oh, yeah. You know what would be scary to me? They tell you hell is an eternity. You have food poisoning. And you're in the middle seat on Spirit Airlines. No free refill. With food poisoning. could you imagine that horror an eternity you're fucking you're stuck it and and it's turbulent because i've experienced food poisoning uh on a plane not in a plane god forbid a turbulent flight will make you believe but a turbulent flight with food poisoning and

the and the cart is in there you can't even to the bathroom, and you're bouncing up and down. See, I've experienced food poisoning on a Greyhound bus. That's what got you there 10 minutes faster. I've never been burned, so it doesn't really resonate with me. Okay, I would like to request some leeway here. Can we continue? Yeah. So you go off to college. Yep.

I'm just saying something. Sorry, there's nothing I can do. And you go off to college. My mom and dad fighting. Thinking that you are a straight dude. And then something happens when you realize, to use your word, queer. To use my daughter's word, zesty. Zesty.

So what was that? You must remember it. It was very gradual. I started to, I mean, I hooked up with, I got a blowjob my freshman year. I gave a blowjob. But how did that happen? It wasn't the. It's a big step.

You're drinking? Yeah, I was pretty drunk. Probably too drunk to like do it. But it happened. And I got a blowjob. And I was like

oh, that's interesting. It's better from a man I've heard. Men give better head? Yeah. Well, why only hear it now? Find out. I hear aliens give An alien will now? Find out.

I hear aliens give. Alien will eat your ass out. None other. Well, so will a lot of comedians. But then by senior year, I'd been on like dates with men. But it's still even, I mean, Princeton's not a super like welcoming environment for queer people. Even there's a non-binary guy who just graduated who's like, yeah, it's still really toxic. Because you're getting people that are 18 coming from all across the country.

It's not the most liberal place. I mean, it is liberal in a lot of ways. But I got called a faggot my senior year. By a Princetonian? Yeah. Can you imagine somebody that goes to Princeton? In anger? Yeah, like I was the officer of an eating club,

and I was like, oh, we're closing up for the day. And he was drunk, too, and being like, oh, a faggot in Tower. I can't believe that, because Tower is the eating club that was artsy and political. That is shocking. And then, like a narc, I turned him in. I went to the LGBTQ center. Hello.

And I wasn't out at the time, So I was like, this person called me a faggot and I want to just file a report that that happened. I think he just got a slap on the wrist or whatever. A slap on the wrist. Yeah. Now, is that traumatic to be called a faggot? No, I think I'm pretty used to it. I haven't been called one in a while.

And I am one. Some of my favorite jokes are when I call myself one. It's funny and provocative. And it's one of the few words I can say. If you use the word queer, that is not the same as being gay, I gather. There's a reason you have another word, right? It can morph and change. I think people

have been reclaiming queer because it used to be a slur. And queer also has an element of activism and politics associated with it, I think, a little bit. The problem with the word, and younger people will not believe that this is true, but it is true, that it was a word that really depended who was using it and how. So my father would say to me about a new waiter, no, he's a f***er. And it was not in the slightest bit derogatory. As a matter of fact, gay waiters would say to my father,

no, man, he's okay. It was very much... But it was meant to be humorous, I gather. You don't use that word... It could be humorous, but it was definitely not. It was not like the N-word. It was... Thereous, but it was definitely not like the N word. It was much funnier ways.

Lighten the loafers, a little bit of a dandy. You can think of cute or funny. That would be more derogatory than this was, because in the village anyway, which was always the F word, it was used

pretty casually in conversations between gay and straight people to describe. As you seem to indicate, it's still used to describe gay people. That's not a word that I would ever use. I'm older than you. Fair enough.

This is what it was like when I was a teenager. Unless I was trying to be funny or flippant or something like that. It's not a word that does have a derogatory element to it. No, it's definitely moved almost to the side of where you can't even use it at all. Oh, yeah. I'll put it in that column. You're canceled for saying it. It wasn't that way.

It really was dependent on the context of who was saying it and how. And by the way, you know, you can say gay and mean it ugly. But anyway, culturally in the village, it was just, you would hear it all the time. You'd just hear it all the time. Without anybody saying, like, you know, you'd hear it all the time. Anyway, it's either here or there.

But that is beautiful. Well, what about you say you're leaning bisexual? Are you a practicing bisexual or is bisexuality... It's been a minute. I watch a little straight porn. Okay. But yeah, I haven't hooked up with a woman in a long time. What's up with the trans woman in LA?

She is a sex worker, but we were just on a date and hooked up. But then I did check her rates the next day to see what kind of a deal I had gotten. Is this true or is this a mistake? This is so true. I got a great deal. I know you think you're all that. That was $1,000. I know you think you're all that, but true. I got a great deal. I know you think you're all that. That was a thousand dollars I know you think you're all that

but I had a sex I know you think you're cool. I had a sex worker take me to Tavern on the Green for dinner. Who paid? The sex worker.

Wow. Because she was off the clock. Dan Adlerman. And not only that but when I went to the bathroom she said, oh, here's some money to tip the bathroom attendant

which we used to have here at the Comedy Cellar but I haven't seen him. He didn't come back after COVID. Ali. I hope he's all right. Nice guy. I haven't seen him. He didn't come back after COVID. Ali. I tried to contact him. There was somebody in the underground.

I got past post-COVID. There's been somebody. There has been somebody. I haven't seen anybody. And then I had a girl I met on Matchmaker, which is a website that doesn't even exist anymore. Is that Jewish? No, no. Matchmaker. No, no.

Just a regular dating site and then, like, she started, like, you know, it was a regular date and then she started, like, hinting that, you know, I could buy her some things

and, you know, could you buy me some stuff and she was, basically, she was a sex worker but... Did you buy her anything? No, I gave her...

You sure it wasn't Jewish? I gave her some money in exchange for sexual favors. I once sent one, someone, we were just flirting, and his Venmo account was in his profile. So I sent him five bucks on his birthday as like a little playful gift. But then I was like, is this how you become a sugar daddy? Is this like the beginning of it? I told Mike Rowland, and he's like, you're not a sugar daddy.

You're that boy's uncle. That five bucks, that's nothing. Wait, I want to hear the story. So you had a date with a trans daddy. You're that boy's uncle. That five bucks, that's nothing. When I hear the story, you had a date with a trans woman. It's just interesting to me. I'm presuming this is somebody who still had the male equipment. That's the best part.

Is it, Dan? Well, I mean, if you're going to go in that direction, that just adds a little something different. If you're into that, then... Now, when you're going to go in that direction, you know, that just adds a little something different. If you're into that, then... Now, when you're having sex with a... Because Perry and I have argued with this at Thanksgiving dinners. When you are having sex...

Turkey ready? Well, who's the top and who's the bottom? When you're fucking... When you are having sex with a trans woman, do you feel like you're having gay sex or straight sex? Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I treat her as a woman, so I guess it would be

straight. Yeah, but there's a penis involved. But I'm gay, so I feel like everything I do is a little gay. But there's a penis involved. Right. Oh, I see. Well, right, right. But they're a woman, so it's straight. Thank you. That makes me a little bi. I don't know if there's a penis involved. Right. Oh, I see. Well, right, right. But they're a woman. So it's straight. Thank you. That makes me a little bi.

I don't know if there's a definitive answer to that question. Well, my answer is exactly the opposite. Your answer is you come down on the side of it's an absolutely gay thing to do. Well, you're putting it in my mouth. But my attitude with Perriella, this is where it started. She denies it now but she did say to me that at one time that if you won't have sex with a trans woman you're you're a bigot and i'm like no i'm attracted to the female body as a matter of fact i don't care what she's thinking about like In other words, she could be having the best gay sex of her life.

Oh, with you? Yeah, like if she's psychologically a male, it's irrelevant to me. If when she takes her clothes off, this is a female body, that's what I'm attracted to. And if it's a male body, it doesn't matter to me that they identify as a man or woman. That's within their own mind. A phrase she taught me that helped me was the idea of genital preference.

Like, you can have a preference. You can prefer diamonds. Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. You can prefer penises. You can prefer anything you want. You can prefer Asian women, black women, you know, all. This is the whole point. You have a right to.

You can prefer tall. You have a right to prefer anything you want. Aliens. I tell you, Zach is adorable. You're like a man with a sense of humor. Were I inclined in that direction? Here's some money for the bathroom attendant. I'll meet you in there in a little bit.

If I were inclined in that way, Zach, he's adorable. There's no question. Adorable. Don't you think, Nicole? We have people like Jim Norton, and he talks about a lot Who has a trans wife

Or girlfriend Right Who does not identify Himself as gay And I know for a fact He's attracted to women So There's something about this

I don't understand But me personally Right but I'm I care not to be called a bigot Because I'm not a bigot I don't think I ever said that But I'm attracted to Female bodies

And I don't think it's relevant what somebody's thinking to me. Right. And as I've tried to explain, a trans woman's body is a woman's body. You're saying you're focusing. I have general preference. Okay. That's the new thing. That honestly, it helped me a lot.

Same thing. You have a right to have any preference you want. Of course you do. At some point you say, listen, I don't find black women attractive. You have that right. But it sounds bigoted.

It does sound bigoted and I would never admit it if it were the case with me. But Candace Owen gets me going. I'll tell you that. So I have an older sister and a younger brother. And are either one of them gay? No, no. So far, just me.

And so one of the interesting things is... Everyone's failed my parents in some sort of way. Oh, really? My older sister got divorced. I'm gay. My younger sister likes black guys. And my younger brother is like... Oh, hold on.

Your younger sister likes black guys. Why is that? In my parents' eyes, that... But why. Younger sister likes black guys. Now, why is that? Why is that? In my parents' eyes that, but why not? Like I asked you that before. Oh, it is interesting.

I don't think they would say it outright, but they've, they're a little, they're a little racist. My parents. That'll be the title of your next book. A little racist, a little racist.

But is, do they find that their religion makes them more uncomfortable about their feelings, racist feelings or less uncomfortable? I would hope so. Cause it's a religion of love and everyone failing their religion makes them more uncomfortable about their feelings, racist feelings, or less uncomfortable? I would hope so, because it's a religion of love and everyone... So they're failing their religion by feeling these racist feelings.

I would think so. I mean, there are those that, you know, I mean, obviously slave owners, many of them were Christians, and they figured out a way to get around that. The Bible says slavery's okay, and, well, God put, you know, the white people over here

and the black people over there, so maybe he doesn't want them to mix. I'm sure they can figure out a way to justify it in terms of their religion. Yeah, the Bible was used to condemn slavery and support it. It's, like, such a powerful document because it has such a history, and you can invoke it in any direction you want.

You can condemn homosexuality with it. You can condemn homophobes with it. But your moms really come around, right? Yeah, I think over time, once they realize, oh, you might lose me if you don't love me more. But do you think they still believe you're going to hell? Yeah, we just don't talk about it. I mean, but that's a pretty big deal.

I know. I know, they should be yelling down the door. If I legitimately and sincerely thought that my child was going to hell... It'd be all you could talk about. I'd have to say, look, what can, I, look, what can I say? God doesn't like gays. I don't, I don't, I don't agree with him, but that's kind of his position.

A verse my mom comes back to is, raise them up in the way they should be, and when they're old, they won't depart from you. So they think I'm going to like on my own come back around. They tried the hard line strategy of like condemning and repeating it over and over again. Well, according to Christian doctrine, what do you need to do to get back in heaven? Just simply say,

stop doing, like if 90 years old, you've had all... On my deathbed, say I accept Jesus Christ So you can have all the dick you want? If you really believe it, though.

So just tell him you'll do that. That's what's the mind... As a kid, I was doing it, but I didn't hear the voice of God. The problem is you get hit by a car

and you die instantly. Oh, I know. I need a notice. I need 20 seconds notice. Yeah, if you know you by a car and you die instantly. Oh, I know. I need a notice. I need 20 second notice. Yeah, if you know you're going to die. I need a light before I die. It has to be sincere. You have to say, I'm sorry.

And it has to be sincere. You can just kind of mow the words. God knows you have to really, really believe it. Oh, that's the tricky part. I thought just saying the words and maybe a prayer and a Hail Mary. If you say the right words, I thought it was enough.

I can't promise that if I'm on a plane that's going down that I'm not going to say it a little. I mean, it is possible. Just to cover your bases, right? But you have to believe it. I know. There are Buddhist traditions where you just prepare for your last breath. Your whole life you're meditating

so that you're in a good state of mind when you die because that dictates where you're going to be reborn. You just want to be ready and at peace when you take that final breath. Do you believe... Does the Bible... I know there's one verse that says a man should not lay with a man as with a woman.

I guess that's... Is that the entirety of what the Bible has to say about homosexuality? I think that's pretty much it. Yeah, there's something in Leviticus. I think that's pretty much it. Yeah, there's something in Leviticus. I think that's the main one. And people reinterpret one word to be homosexual when it's actually like sexual immorality or something.

I mean, the Bible says a lot of things that we don't think. Like you're not supposed to mix wool and silk or something. You can't have a cheeseburger. So it seems to me that the Christian condemnation of homosexuality is based in part on just people's innate prejudice because,

you know, there's one verse in the Bible but there's verses that say all sorts of things and they don't talk about those things. So much of life is

you feel a certain way and then you try to find some like higher order justification for feeling that way. I do that with like when I'm jealous of someone I'm like, oh, I hate them. And do that with like, when I'm jealous of someone, I'm like,

Oh, I hate them. And then I'm like, well, actually their art, their art is what I don't like. Yeah. That's the whole breadth of modern discourse.

I've, here's my position. And now I'm going to figure out why it's right. Global warming, man, make global warming is bullshit. And now I'm going to go online and figure out and just read the articles that back up that position. Right, right, right. It's not a healthy way to get to but that's every but that's how

i mean i think on both sides of the aisle most people you know john hyde's book was all about right i mean like i believe man-made global warming is real but guess what if tomorrow all the experts said you know what we made a. We forgot to carry the one in the equation. There's some reports coming out that COVID came from a lab. And I think that's like... I'm open to all... I'm open to... So, funny is the wrong word, but it is like such a like, oh my God. Like we made it such a political like identity thing.

What you believed about where it came from. And then to find out the actual truth. Well, I had a stupid thought when this another one okay yeah when this canadian wildfire smoke was in the air and you know you you were all here you could see it you could see it in there and i was thinking that if if covid was just a little bit visible thousand percent if it's just a little covid haze that everybody wear their masks you would have to convince anybody like like a hundred percent little bit visible. A thousand percent. If it's just a little COVID haze. Everybody wear their masks.

You wouldn't have to convince anybody. Oh, a hundred percent. Just the slightest fit. Or if when you had COVID, you turned a little green or something. Anything. Anything. Any kind of visual. Yeah. That just proves just how not dumb we are.

But like, yeah, we only have our senses and we're kind of stupid. And so an invisible disease is going to get us more than a very visible. It's so crazy. You would wear your fucking mask without being asked. Right, right. If you just saw a little pink in the air. Yes. No offense.

It was more scary, I think, because of that. I think that's what really made it. Oh, invisible was more scary. Yeah, I think the invisible was more scary. Well, not to the people that did thought it was all bullshit. No, it's also really made it. Oh, Invisible was more scary. Yeah, I think the Invisible was more scary. Not to the people that did thought it was all bullshit. No, it's also more deniable. And the slow creep of climate change makes it a harder villain to fight, too.

It's not like, oh, an alien came down, and we can all battle it together at once. It's like, oh, this thing's slowly chipping away at us. Humans are so... Denial. Our brains have shortcomings, and so we have to build structures that support us and the things

we want to do because in the moment we make terrible decisions and so that's why we have hopefully a government that are debating and putting money towards different things and regulating different industries because yeah I wouldn't trust me with I wouldn't trust me with like climate change decisions or

I read I think it was I read an old Sam Harris book, and I identify with a lot of the way he thinks about it. Are you a Sam Harris fan? I think so, yeah. I haven't read anything super recently. But the new atheists really spoke to me, especially when I was first becoming an atheist. I didn't read it, but I've read it. So you would go as far as to call yourself an atheist?

Recently, I'm kind of like, whatever gets you through the day, man. Now, you don't allow for any possibility in your mind of something. I think something I do, I think God is the dead name of the universe. A lot of people are like, surrender to the universe now.

And I do think there is an element of kind of like, there's power in surrendering. Things work out to good. It sounds to me like Buddhism has had an effect on you. You seem to be tending towards Buddhism. I do love... I mean, he taught some great stuff. And meditation's pretty powerful.

Do you meditate? Not as much as I should. But when I do, I always feel goddamn amazing. I don't like meditation. It lets all the bad thoughts in. Because meditation is by nature, you kind of, you don't think of anything. You're not distracted. What do you do when you think the bad thought?

I have to go back to distraction. Your breath. You go to your breath. Watching TV or reading a book or something else. No, you're supposed to let it pass. Being alone with my thoughts. You're supposed to let it pass. What is a mindfuck to me about consciousness

is it's such a bad deal. Someone once was like, okay, hey, do you want the ability to imagine incredible futures, no language, communicate at levels you've never known, but there's going to be a little voice in your ear being like, you're a piece of shit. You're a fucking piece of shit.

For the rest of your life. Why do we all have that weird little negative talk track in our heads saying terrible things to us all the time? I don all have that weird little negative talk track in our heads saying terrible things to us all the time i don't have that yeah i don't i don't know it's nicole here i don't you're never mean to yourself sleeping well uh uh i mean i have like i have self-doubts that was dumb i shouldn't have said that or like oh i wish i had said done this or like yeah of course but but i but i wouldn't say it's a constant thing. I wouldn't describe it.

I'm not saying it like that. You're not on any drugs? What's that? You're not on any drugs? No. Have you done Hiawask? It sounds like that's something you would enjoy very much. Or psilocybin.

Mike Kaplan did it, and I think it changed who he was. Well, I hear all sorts of things about those drugs. Sam Harris is a big fan of them, psychedelics. No, no, he is. Oh, is he? Absolutely, huge. And they're coming around to even LSD. I think they're coming around to possible uses of it for mental illness in particular.

There is a theory that eating a psychedelic mushroom is kind of what led to humanity. Like a monkey ate a delicious mushroom and that's kind of expanded our brains and led to us evolving to this. That's not true. It's not? I mean, it may be a theory, but you know that that's not true. Okay. I don't know. I'm afraid that Satan will appear to me if I ever do psychedelics in a meaningful way. Did you ever read the Mark Twain's short story, The Mysterious Stranger,

where Satan comes to him? You like that? Yeah. There's a piece in here where I sit down with Satan at a diner. Oh, really? That's kind of like the Mark Twain story. Yeah. Oh, that's fun.

And what was Satan like? He is very charming. He tipped 15% at the diner. Does he look like Brad Pitt in his 30s? Like Al Pacino? It ends with an absurdist line that he reveals his form, and he looks like David Duchovny. I don't know why.

I was like, he has to look like David. But I interview him like a magazine piece and ask him about his history and how he got canceled in heaven. So this book is memoir, but it's also got sort of... Some humor pieces along the way. Some pieces that you might find in the New Yorker. Exactly.

I pulled some of my best ones. That's the great thing about writing a book. You can be kind of lazy. You can be like, oh, let me take these couple pieces I already wrote, put, package them together. But I spent a lot of work on it, and I'm very proud of it. And if anyone wants to read it, they should buy it. When is your accomplishment to write a book?

Can we pull up a clip? All three of you have written books. It's amazing. Can we pull up a clip of Josh? When's yours? I feel like you could write a great book. I don't think so. Noam is too, he doesn't have the motivation.

I don't think I have an interesting story to tell. Well, no, you would write a nonfiction. I don't ever stop you guys. You would write a nonfiction book. I don't know what I would write. You would write a book about nonfiction, like a Jonathan Haidt type thing. I don't think I have an interesting nonfiction story.

That's ridiculous. And also, Noam's a little bit snooty about memoirs, though. He thinks novels are harder to write. You'd write a novel? I'd what?

You'd want to write a novel? No. No, he's just... I think they are. I think a novel's harder to write. Of course a novel's harder to write. It's a different... Someone told me...

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying you're a little bit snooty about memoirs. That's not snooty. If Dostoevsky sat sat down to write his memoir i think he'd find that easier than writing crime and punishment yeah but you're always like oh perriel you just wrote a memoir like it's not like a real book it's a real book but it's a real book but it's not a now he's saying that because you're here no i think it. No. You think it's harder to imagine

a world where anything could happen than it is to create a compelling narrative with actual evidence and things that really happened? I think that... Because a memoir is not like a diary, right? You still have to create characters and an arc and a story, and you're

still making stuff up. There's value in both of them. Yes, there's absolutely value in both of them. You have to have talent to do either. Both are interesting to read. Okay. But Nicole Clippers.

But like Charles Dickens, I don't know if you've ever read anything by Dickens. He was a famous British author. Charles Dickens. I don't know if you've ever read anything about Dickens. He was a famous British author. Charles Dickens creates a whole universe of characters and interplays and stories, and he creates it. He makes the whole thing up. Okay. That, to me, is different than writing about your dumb childhood.

Nicole, is it possible to get a quick clip of Josh Johnson to compare voices? Oh, that's hilarious. We've got to deal with it. Someone told me once that when you write a novel, people talk about the craft of what you wrote. When you write a memoir, they talk about what happened to you. Yeah. Now, of course, there is obviously this style in any writing.

You can write anything. Okay, Josh, that's Artie. Yeah, but I guess he's introducing you. Nicole. Josh, that's Artie. Yeah, but I guess he's introducing you. Nicole. You know that's Artie, right, Nicole? Here's Josh Johnson. Same voice. Listen. Listen carefully. Hey. He's got a new haircut.

I think he starts with... How y'all doing? Everybody good? Sweet. Sweet. How y'all doing? Everybody good? Sweet. I was having a conversation with my friends about how they missed before the pandemic. And I know by that they mean 2019. But I'll be honest. I miss random years. That's enough.

I think he's from the South, too. As I said, he has New Orleans. But this, what I'm doing today is not my stage persona, I don't think. I'm much more like, hey, everybody. We've got to wrap it up. Only because we have another show after this. But I want to ask you a question. Do you have any response to the Jocelyn Chia incident?

Oh, poor girl. Jesus Christ. I only followed a little bit of it. I thought it was interesting. Or can I ask you a question about it? I was interested in the decision or what the process asking her to take it down was like. I didn't ask her to take it down. Oh, there's some article that.

The New York Times, I think, said at the request of the comedy. Yeah. And that caught my ear because I was like, no, I'm sorry. And the New York Times, I believe, said that. Free speech advocate. Oh, no maybe maybe i maybe i didn't maybe somebody else no i what happens they're supposed to they're supposed to um i'm gonna tell a story in the next hour or two they're supposed to run these clips by me before they post them right and they didn't run this one by me and i wouldn't have posted it oh really you would have lagged

because i would have i would have sensed that, because, you know, the club is artistic expression, and I'm very reticent to, reluctant to, you know, intervene in what you guys say. Instagram is a promotional thing, and it has to be a smart thing. It's idiotic to post something you think is going to lead to bad publicity, right? So when I saw this cover, I said, why would you post it?

It actually invites the customers to leave bad reviews. He actually puts the five stars up on the goddamn video. It's like daring a customer. Oh. So I flipped my lid. Not that I could have ever imagined it became what it became. An international incident. Which actually flipped and actually might even be good for the club.

Right, right. But at first I said, what the fuck? So I took it down off our Instagram, and then I asked Dani to send her a new version of the clip that was not branded by the comedy seller. Oh, without teasing you to review. Yeah, yeah. It still says, it's still the comedy seller's sign.

Gotcha, gotcha. It's her business. I'm not going to tell her. But no call to action. Yeah, no call to review. Yeah, yeah. It still says, it's still the Comedy Cellar sign. Gotcha, gotcha. And my answer is, it's her business. I'm not going to tell her. But no call to action. Yeah, no call to action and no Comedy Cellar logo on our, in other words,

this is your clip, Jocelyn. None of my business what you do with your clip. The fact that this is our club, I understand it can still lead to negative response to the club simply because it's obviously the Comedy Cellar

because that big sign is behind you. But I didn't feel I had a right to take it that far. Now, I said, you're right. It's her. It's her performance. And she's free to do with it what she wants. Even if it's bad for me, I got to suck it up. I just asked Danny to give her a clean version, a vanilla version of her own clip rather than

make it seem like the Just without the seller frame. But the comedy seller Instagram account is another matter. That you have every right to. And you made a good point, too, that something on a stage in a club is different than you drinking your morning coffee and watching. The same joke read on your phone at 9 a.m. can hit different than being in a room at 10 o'clock.

When you have an idea of the persona of the character, too, like, oh, this is a bad boy. Like a lot of the comics here have like a bad boy persona and it's like tongue in cheek a little and you're not saying things that you believe. There's an entire vibe to it. And this is not just comedy. I'm going to say, like in music, sometimes you're

in a band, you're playing a song really, really fast. The audience, and then you listen back to it the next day. What the fuck? It's so fast and frantic. but in the moment it was awesome if you listen to like some James Brown live recordings

it's fucking breakneck speed it's nothing like he released the records but in that time and place it works if you listen to a recording of yourself having sex over morning coffee

you're like what the fuck am I out of my mind but in the moment and so comedy you're drinking it's late night, you say something naughty. Oh, no, you didn't say it. Right, right. It's a guilty pleasure.

That being said, the Malaysians in the crowd were every bit as infuriated. I don't believe they were every bit as infuriated. They probably didn't like it. No, they were like sort of, it was like a riff. Like it was like back and forth. I don't think they were actually infuriated. I'll just give you another example. This is the vibe and the culture of comedy.

When my father was, I don't know, 48 hours from dying, I was at the back table and I told Nick DiPaolo, I said, I don't think he's going to last another day or two. Nick says, who gets the Lexus? My father drove a Lexus. And we all burst out laughing because within our kind of world, that's funny. That's love.

It's love. And within comedians, that's the way they relate to the world. Everything is a premise in its own way. It doesn't matter how sacred it is. Nothing is sacred. And the audience sometimes can be invited into that vibe, as I said

in the time thing. But when you just clip that out and you put it, it's jarring. And if you're Malaysian, and this is apparently a very, very sensitive issue for them in a way that we can't understand. But I mean, they have Interpol on the case. You saw this? Yeah.

So obviously, you know, it is what it is. But what do you mean in a way that we can't understand? Like, we had September 11th. Like, we can understand that there are horrible events that have killed... Well, okay, so if we saw

a clip of a Malaysian comic making fun of September 11th, and it was still close to us, that would be bad enough. But we still do have the cultural understanding that people can say outrageous things. We don't think that a crime has been committed. Right. You've got to call the police. There's certain – That's interesting.

As I've said – Oh, right, like is there a stand-up culture in Malaysia? So in the Arab world, when they threw a shoe at President Bush, your older notes don't remember this. And we learned that showing the bottom of your foot is like this. The height of disrespect. The height of disrespect. They can't even process it. And that's a Pavlovian response.

And Pavlovian responses are real, but we can't really even process it. And that's a Pavlovian response. And Pavlovian responses are real, but we can't really identify with it. I'm saying they're having some response over there to just the notion of saying something disrespectful. Forget about what seems like, you just don't say things like that. Yes. That's like showing the bottom of your foot.

Yes. We are not, that's not our culture that's right i mean you don't have a whole fucking country uproar like this obviously we have to look at that and say you could not recreate that reaction in america no matter what was said that's right you just couldn't do we have any taboo that we could you just could not get that to happen so you have to there's no point in judging that. It is what it is, right?

That's all. Okay. Um, although I think it's, I think Jocelyn certainly knew that she was leaning into something. Well, that's what we're going to ask her in the next hour. You're welcome to hang out.

She's coming. You want to hang out? Oh yeah. We have enough Mike. We got it. We need to put another Mike in. No, no.

Probably doesn't need her Mike. No, no. Pearlie doesn't need her mic. No, no. Okay, let's wrap it up. Okay, thank you, everybody. Podcastcomedyseller.com. Bye-bye. Is it hot in here? Is it hot in here?

Zach Zimmerman, pick it up wherever fine books are sold or the local queer bookstore. Happy to have him here.