The Compound and Friends - A Conversation with Michael Lombardi

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

On this special episode of Live from The Compound, Michael Lombardi joins Josh Brown and Michael Batnick to discuss all things football! Michael Lombardi is a former General Manager and three-time Super Bowl-winning NFL executive, after thirty years working for the New England Patriots, San Francisco 49ers, the Oakland Raiders, and the Cleveland Browns. Listen to The GM Shuffle with Michael Lombardi and Femi Abebefe: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gm-shuffle-with-michael-lombardi-and-femi-abebefe/id1458884463 Check out The Compound shop: https://idontshop.com Follow The Compound on Instagram: https://instagram.com/thecompoundnews Follow The Compound on Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecompoundnews Obviously nothing on this channel should be considered as personalized financial advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any securities. See our disclosures here: https://ritholtzwealth.com/podcast-youtube-disclosures/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, hello, everybody. I am so excited. Welcome to a special edition of Live from the Compound. I'm Michael Bannock here with Josh Brown. And tonight we have an incredible guest, former NFL coach and veteran football commentator, Michael Lombardi. Michael, just hang tight while I give you a little bit of an introduction. All right. So for those of you who don't know Michael, he started his career as a scout for the legend Bill Walsh in the San Francisco 49ers. From there, he became the Cleveland Browns director of player personnel with a little guy named Bill Belichick, who was head coach at the time. He then spent a decade with the Raiders under Al Davis.

Belichick, Walsh, Al Davis. And he took a trip to the Super Bowl with the Raiders. A little thing called the tuck will happen there. Michael then returned to Cleveland as a GM, where he reunited with Bill Belichick two seasons later. I'm sorry. He reunited later with New England and his assistant. They won two Super Bowls together.

Michael has worked with Fox, NFL Films, CBS, and The Ringer, and football is in his blood. He's got two sons that are in the NFL. Matt is an assistant with the Carolina Panthers, and Nick is the offensive coordinator for the Las Vegas Raiders. Michael co-hosts two excellent podcasts, The GM Shuffle and The Lombardi Line. He is the author of the book

Gridiron Genius. What I love about Michael is that he combines analytics with experience and common sense. Michael Lombardi, thank you for coming on today. Thank you. Another 10 minutes. Another 10 minutes. Lyndon Johnson used to say that, you know, I wish my father was alive to hear that introduction and my mom was here. She would have believed it. So, I mean, that was pretty damn good, right? I appreciate it. Thank you very much. All right. So, Michael, in markets, we say that things that have never happened before happen all the time, all the time. And I feel like it's similar in football where you see stats that have never happened before. And so, for example, let's start here. Yesterday, which was an insane day of football, the Browns, the Cleveland Browns and the New York Jets, two of the most tortured franchises in NFL history.

The Browns were up 13 points with two minutes to go. This morning, I was listening to Simmons and Sal, and one of them said the previous 2,230 times a team was up 13 points with two minutes to go, they won. What the hell happened yesterday? Oh boy. That's a, that's a, it's a hard question to answer. I mean, I think if that ever situation plays out 1000 times 99, uh, it's never going to happen again. I mean, it took a, a really, a truly luck, right? So everybody wants Nick Chubb to lay down on the one yard line, all the analytical people. I mean, look, I've been in the league. I go up by two touchdowns with under two minutes to go in the game.

I'm pretty happy, right? So he scores. They miss the extra point. All right, no big deal. That's fine. So you kick off, make them return it. Now they blow a coverage. I mean, the guy in the left corner doesn't get the check,

or whatever happened. He leaves the zone vacant, and all of a sudden two plays later now you're only down now you're only up by six then they line up for the onside kick they overload it to the right and they kick it to the left and amari cooper's over there with his 20 million and he doesn't even go after the football okay next problem now we're screwed now we're in a game now the jets don't have any timeouts right but we got a lot of problems i mean we got a lot of problems and I mean, we got a lot of problems. And so then they play passively soft. They can't get the Flacco and Flacco when he can stand back there, like Abe Lincoln, you know, he's making throws left and right, dishing it out. And the Browns end up losing the game. I mean, everything had to go

perfectly right to get an onside kick is damn hard. Right. And they did, and they got it to get, to get two, to get a score in two plays when you're playing prevent or you're playing defense in front. That's damn near impossible. The Browns dominate the game. Right. So every game after every game I go through and look at to evaluate how the teams are executing. Right. So it's like you guys go through and evaluate companies on their performances and you use different variables to look at it. Rushing attempts and completed passes. When you combine those two together, you come up with a number that's greater than 53.

The execution doesn't guarantee a win. The execution is really good. The Browns had 60 plays, rushes and completions. They ran the ball 37 times. And they completed a ton of passes, but they didn't finish the game because they made these mistakes in critical junctions. And that's what happens. They should have never lost. And then Jacoby Brissett, who actually played pretty well. I don't think he's very good, but he played pretty well until

the end. I thought that they were going to come back. And then he threw that, that boneheaded pick. Let me ask you this. It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but I feel like with the NFL in particular, the fans are always right on this. Why do defenses play so soft to, like, keep the men in? I mean, it almost always ends up going badly. I feel like with the Chiefs and the Bills, for example, in the conference championship that happened. Well, I mean, they were playing man. The Chiefs were playing man.

They couldn't cover Gabriel Davis. I mean, look, yesterday in the Miami-Baltimore game, they're playing man-to-man. That's Tyree Kill over there. That's a world-class sprinter over there, and you're playing man-to-man. Now, the corner was 15 yards off, and we still ran by him. I mean, he had to wait for Tua to get the ball to him, but I mean,

he ran by him. I've never seen more open receivers. I think, look, you got to keep the ball in front, and with your other Cleveland Browns, you should be able to pressure with four guys. You want to pressure Flacco and move him off the spot. You don't want him to get into a rhythm, and you want to be able to tackle him inbounds. It's situational. They blew the coverage. If they don't get the big play to Corey Davis, they're not going to win the game. They really are. Two things happen for the Jets, the long field goal and the big play. If those two don't happen, it just was perfectly in the cards yesterday for the Jets. When you watch these games, is there a temptation to say, you know, there were a lot of really interesting games, especially the one o'clock games yesterday. So you get a lot of temptation

to be like, man, if that were me with the clipboard, I would have won. I would have known exactly how to win that game in that moment. Or do you, or, or do you talk yourself out of that and realize that when you're the guy down on the field, it's not that simple? No, I mean, I'm more of the guy, look, I think he just doesn't know. Like I said this after the Super Bowl. If you would have flown Bill – I said this after the 13-second game. If you would have flown Bill Parcells into Kansas City with 13 seconds left to go in the game and said,

Sean McDermott, stand over here. Bill's going to take over for the next 13. He would have won the game. Like I knew exactly what to do in that situation. Oh, yeah, there's no doubt. Like there's so many games that you say, okay, here's what we have to do. Here's how I got to play it. Because most people are looking at the clock and they're looking at how much time is left in the game.

I'm looking at how many plays are left in the game. How many – can I reduce a play somewhere? But I think we've lost the art, Josh. There was a time when I first started my career that becoming a head coach, you had to serve this long apprenticeship and you had to learn the game in three different ways. Today, it's all about specialization. You just call plays. I mean, poor Nathaniel Hackett. He's sitting there.

He's calling plays. He doesn't know. You know, he's in over his head. You could see it on his poor face, right? It's a hard thing to do. And you just wish you could help him. You say poor guy because why? He's just so out of his depth.

The coach of the Broncos. He's never been trained by it. I think one of the things, I don't know in your business, but the mistake these search firms make in pro sports, picking people, they don't build a support team for the guy. Like when Marcus Friedman becomes the head coach at Notre Dame, he just didn't wake up ready to become the head coach, right? Let's take Parcells as an example. If George Young was able to convince Howard Schnellenberger, the head coach, right? Let's take Parcells as an example. If George Young was able to convince Howard Schnellenberger,

the head coach of the University of Miami, to become the head coach of the New York football giants, Parcells would have never got a second chance. He would have never. He would have fired Parcells and Schnellenberger would have come in. It would have been a disaster, but that's what would have happened. So somebody's got to train the coach. Like if I were Marcus Freeman and I became the head coach of Notre Dame,

I would have got my ass on an airplane and flown to see Parcells or spent time with somebody to teach me how to be a head coach. We have lost that completely. One of the big differences on Wall Street versus in pro football, though, so on Wall Street, you could be losing people money, but they're not sitting 10 feet away from you, letting you know how they feel every time you make a trade. So you talk about the Broncos. This is a team that in week two is being booed at home by its own fans. You could have as many lunches with Parcells as you want. That's the kind of thing I feel like that seasons you. You have to go through that as a coach, as a player.

Do you agree with that? Yeah, I do. I think what stands in the way becomes the way. I truly believe that. I really do. The Orion Holiday. But I think what stands in the way becomes the way. I truly believe that. I really do. The Ryan Holiday piece. But I think you've got to prepare yourself. You just can't learn it on the job.

I think one of the things we try to get minority hirings in the football, I think we should have a leadership academy for minorities to go learn how to become leaders. Can you send John Mara there? Pardon me? Send John Mara there, please. Yeah. I mean, like, I think we don't get us banned. Don't get us. Don't get us. I think we need that. I think we need a course in that. Like we, we start talking about the X's and O's look in your profession and in my profession, the number one thing in any role of a leader is to understand

what the job is and what it is. That's really the essence of it, right? Josh, you could become a head coach, Mike. You could, because if you understand what it is and what it is. That's really the essence of it, right? Josh, you could become a head coach. Because if you understand what it is and what it isn't, right? Nathaniel Hackett thinks the job is for him to call plays when the job is to run the team and manage the game. So he's caught up looking at his play sheet. The job is I'm going to get fired if I don't manage the game the right way, right? What is the job and what is it?

And I think they miss that question continuously. I guess better to fail conventionally is the old saying. But speaking of the Broncos, so new ownership group, right, the Walton family. And I think this happens all the time, not just in football, but in any sport where they come in, they clean house, they get their guy, the coach, the quarterback, Russell Wilson. Obviously, I mean, I don't think he's the old Russell Wilson. Yesterday at one point he was six for 20 with 93 yards and a pick. Did they? I mean, they're $240 million for 20 with 93 yards in a pick. Did they, I mean,

they're $240 million for five and they're stuck, right? There's that's it. Yeah. But see, they didn't pick the coach. Now I'm sure they probably had some influence because they weren't, they were one of the candidates to pick the team,

nor did they pick the general manager, George Payton. So, you know, the coach Russell's there to stay. I'm, you know, the coach of the GM have to have to prove themselves to the new ownership group,

and I'm sure they will, but it's going to take a little bit. But the coach isn't off to a great start. Can you help me out for a second and talk about the Giants? So you talk about culture all the time. It starts at the top, right top down. So John Mara, obviously the Mara family, legendary football owners, turnover out the ass for the Giants. Joe Judge, McAdoo, Shermer,

Joe judge. Now I think we've got the right, the right team in step in place. We'll see, but how every giant fan wanted to get them out for years. Like how, please explain this to the average fan who doesn't, who can't understand what's going on. Well, the giants are a family run business, right? I mean, that's what they are. And whenever you get to a third generation of a family run business, it goes away from what it was originally from the founding fathers. And I think John has tried to be, John's

overly loyal to people and they've got a lot of young, they got a lot of family members within the organization. I mean, there is an entitlement there that goes within that organization because nobody's going to get fired. You could be really bad at your job, but, John, you've been here 100 years. We're going to keep you. It's like the Dolphins. There's no real – But that's like – but when you hear the Mara name brought up, the adjective that's like almost synonymous with that family at this point is class.

Yes. It's a class organization. The family is class. Everything you do class organization. The family has class. Everything you do is classy. Maybe that's part of the problem. It's tough to shake things up when you're trying to maintain this visage of class. No doubt. You are too kind.

John Mara is a really nice man. But that doesn't help you in football. And then the other thing is they have too many people that tell them what they want to hear. You know, I mean, they're a bad team with no cap room. Now, how do you get there? Right. So, you know, and so what happens is you don't have any, you don't have anybody telling you the truth. I say this all the time. There's a difference between loyalty and devotion, right? The giants are a devoted organization. Everybody's devoted to them. So remember, remember the guy, uh, Bundy Brown with Muhammad Ali. Remember Bundy Brown, he would be in the

corner, right? You're the champ. You're the champ. You're the champ. Jamie Foxx played him. Right. All right. Bundy was devoted to Muhammad Ali. He was never really loyal to him. He was devoted to him because he never told him the truth. So there's a difference between being devoted and being loyal, loyal people tell you the truth, but the Giants didn't have that. And so what's the biggest mistake when you evaluate companies? They can't evaluate their own company. They make mistakes internally. It's the same thing in pro football. Hell, I went to Australia three years ago and I was helping out Australia rules football team. And I walked in the building. I was in there for two hours. And I said to the guy who was the president of the team,

then I said, your problems are the same problems that happen in the NFL. You guys can't evaluate your own team. It's the same problem. Same thing that happens in business. You can't evaluate. You make mistakes on your own. If you can't evaluate your own team,

I'm going to evaluate another players. So wink is the man. He's got us playing good defense. Dan Duggan from the athletic tweeted. The Panthers converted two of 12 third downs today. Titans were three for11 last week. Are the Cowboys going to rip Daniel Jones' head off next week?

I think their defense is going to smack him around. I think what the Giants have done so far this year, and credit Brian Dayball, credit Wink Martindale and everybody on their staff, Mike Kafka, is they've avoided losing. I mean, it sounds really simple, right? Before you can win in the NFL, you can't lose. The Panthers start the game off with a fumble. The second drive, they f avoided losing. I mean, it sounds really simple, right? Before you can win in the NFL, you can't lose. The Panthers start the game off with a fumble.

The second drive, they fumble again. They're six points. They lose the game on those two things. You've got to avoid losing. And I think the Giants have done a nice job. And we're a winx really good on third down. The Giants were in 18 third downs. They were 6-18.

They're making Daniel Jones look like he's not one of the bottom three quarterbacks in the league, but he definitely is. They dressed him up. He looks really pretty, and everybody will say it's great, but at the end of the day, if he has to throw the ball and he has to play fast, it won't happen. It gets exposed. It gets exposed, but they're covering it up. It's a nice makeup job.

Listen, we'll take it, whatever it takes. I wanted to make sure we got to Tua. Michael thinks he's one of the most polarizing players in the league. I'm sure you do as well. I don't really watch college football, but he didn't even play, and I definitely don't watch high school football.

So I just really had no opinion of him. I can't believe how strongly people feel. So I wanted to start with, like, why do people feel so strongly one way or the other about this kid's potential? It's weak too. Well, I think partly is, and I'm on the anti-Tua side because he got picked at the fifth pick overall in the draft and Justin Herbert got picked.

Like he's very accurate. There are strengths to Tua, there's no denying it. He's very accurate, but he doesn't have great size. He doesn't have a great arm. He's got a great PR campaign. I mean, it's really good. He's got a lot of people, but I thought what we saw yesterday was Tua when he played at Alabama. You didn't see it, Josh, but when he played at Alabama, the guys were wide-ass open. I mean, and yesterday, they were wide open, and Tua made the throws to them. Now, on the deep throws, they had to wait for the ball, which is typical. I had a guy text me yesterday and said,

are Tua's balls always hanging in the air that long? Tyreek had to stop, basically. Yeah, I mean, Tyreek had to stop. But look, give Miami credit in this sense. They kind of know who Tua is, so they basically built Alabama's program. They got two elite athletes playing outside with a tight end that can really make plays in a passing game. So they're making him look better than he is. And the fans that love

Tua will say, see, I told you so. And the people like me will say, yeah, but when they got to play against a good team, a good coordinator, that's not going to mean the last week they scored what? They scored 10 points against the Patriots. I know they won 20 to 10, but they scored 10 points with their defense. Do we make this, do we make this mistake over and over again about having a high-profile college quarterback's first year be like the end-all, be-all? And then you have a guy like Josh Allen who nobody really cares the first two or three years and then breaks out. And now, oh, wow, now he's a lead all of a sudden. He could have basically gone to any team and or been cut, and nobody would have cared.

So, like, how important is that first year to you? And what do you think the public gets wrong when they do that with QBs? The public just creates completions. They don't really understand anything other than the ball got completed. The ball got completed. That's all they create. Most, and I'm talking about most, Walsh told me this in 1984. There's very few people who can evaluate the quarterback

and even fewer who can coach him. And he's right. He's been right about that. But we live in a world where everybody thinks they can evaluate the quarterback because they only evaluate the completions. Oh, you completed that pass. You completed that pass. Well, yeah, okay, great.

So, you know, it's like I remember when Kosar came to the sideline and Bill told him he was going to make a change at quarterback, and Kosar's like, I'm 11 for 12. And Bill looks at him and says, Bernie, you throw for 42 yards. Like, seriously. Like, we've got no yards in the passing game. So I do think that first year. So what do you – all right, so the public's looking at completions.

What are you looking at that we're not seeing? Anticipation, rhythm, being able to throw the ball on time, being able to put the ball in the tight being able to put the ball into tight windows. Brett Favre said this about quarterbacks, great quarter, good quarterback and throw it to the door. A great quarterback can hit the doorknob. An elite quarterback throws it through the keyhole.

I'm looking for that keyhole thrower. I'm looking for the guy that can stay in the pocket when people are in his face and make throws. See, if you rush to a straight ahead, he even admitted this the other day, if you rush to and build a pocket where he can't see, he can't see. Buddy Ryan said this years ago,

there's a place in football for the little man. It's just not in front of the big man. And so that's what happens. But I'm looking at who's in that category that's playing today. Like Herbert, like that, that. So Herbert's the guy that hits the keyhole or puts it through the keyhole. You know, my homes at times does it too. You know, you know I mean Mahomes can do it Josh Allen has gotten better I would say Josh Allen's a doorknob key when Josh Allen came out of the league he really wasn't could even throw through the door he really improved his accuracy in the league while in the league and which is rare I mean he

I was so his first season he was he was he couldn't hit anything I was so wrong on him because I didn't think you could improve accuracy, and he did. He's so dominant. Are they going to win the Super Bowl this year? Well, I mean, look, they're the favorite, but you know how that goes. It's one game you lose, anything can happen. I mean, like Brady's accuracy is remarkable. I mean, it's just remarkable.

He throws the ball, and you're like, how did – it's the perfect spot. That touchdown yesterday, the first touchdown of the game that he threw it to the right side. Who was that? I didn't see that play. I didn't see who caught it. I mean, it was just, I mean, like Aaron Rodgers, like you have no choice but to catch his ball. It's like unbelievably thrown. In my new book, I wrote up the top 100 players.

And obviously Aaron Rodgers is the top 100 players of all time. And I compared Aaron Rodgers to the greatest dart thrower of all time, which is Phil Taylor from Great Britain. I mean, basically, I think Aaron Rodgers could beat Phil Taylor in a dart match. I mean, that's how precise he is with the football. It was Brashad Paramin, which is neither here nor there. But let's talk about scouting for a second and analytics, because we have more data than we've ever had before. And scouts, GMs get it wrong all the time. I don't think that will ever change. And I want to know why, but before we get there, here's the stat. So I'm on Ross St. Brown. Did I say his name right? I guess I'm the worst at names. Okay. So he was, so he was the 16th receiver taken in the 2021 NFL draft.

So he just set a crazy record. He has six consecutive games of eight receptions and a touchdown. Only four players in NFL history have done that. And he's got one other stat that has literally never been done. So how come scouts continue to get it wrong with all of the information? Cause I don't know who's going to be throwing to him. They don't know. They don't know in advance.

It's Jared Goff. Quarterbacks that get wrong all the time, all the time. Yeah. Well, I mean, look at the, the first of all, it's like your business,

it's bias comes in, right? So we've got all these draft next. And I wrote about this in my new books, how the, the perception is fueled the evaluation process. So you got all these bias built in. I found this guy.

I like this guy. So instead of the, basically, instead of collecting evidence as you go along, people begin with the end in mind, and they collect evidence to support what they've already concluded. As for receivers, that's the hardest position for scouts to evaluate. Why? Because the college game, they don't play press coverage. So you never see the receiver get off the line. It's one of the positions that when you look at that you can find a good player, Gabriel Davis, who's going to play tonight if he's healthy. He's in the fourth round. He's as good as some guys that I picked in the first round. And so to me, that's what Walsh

used to say all the time. Like, let's not pick receivers until the rest of the high, until the rest of the team's filled. Now there's some unique guys. I mean, Tyree kills a fifth round pick because of what happened at Oklahoma State off the field, domestic violence. But I mean, there's rare guys, but it's a hard, but look, the whole thing becomes, I would say the biggest issue with college scouting is not understanding what's playing in the league and having bias. Hmm. Um, is Russell Wilson getting a better this year or no, I mean, look, Russellson ran for 183 yards last year that's the lowest total he's ever rushed for in his entire life and you say this is already on the downswing you're saying right remember this quarterbacks like boxers right they take so many hits and then

they don't want to get hit anymore ben roethlisberger they used to put that stat up last year the next gen stat he gets rid of the ball in two point isn't he amazing the ball was a hot potato you want to get hit anymore yeah you know i was arguing with a friend you know they should have just sneaked it on the one yard line i said okay you go tell russell wilson who doesn't want to get hit you know they go sneak it see how that conversation goes um is the off the field tom brady stuff gonna interfere with the season or is that noise and he'll still be tb we get to week six seven nobody's gonna be talking about it anymore i mean you, you know, I mean, look, it's hard to tell, right? It's hard to, I mean, you're too, I don't know if what's true and what's not true.

I haven't talked to him, so I don't know. But to me, anything that affects you off the field affects you on the field. We tend to lose sight of that in this business. Well, guys can play through it. No, you can't. I mean, you have a hard time going to work if you, if your loved ones aren't all in alignment. So, but he's very good at focus. What,

what, what makes those great players so great is their ability to say, focus, stay focused. It's what Steve jobs was able to do. Steve jobs could stay focused, not because he could concentrate, but he could say no to the outside distractions.

That's Brady and Belichick. Yeah. That's Buffett too. You know, there's all the books about Warren Buffett. There's not a lot of fatherhood Belichick. Yeah, that's Buffett too. There's all the books about Warren Buffett. There's not a lot of fatherhood stuff in there because it obviously wasn't the priority. Becoming the world's greatest investor was. And there are guys that are able to do that. I guess it's really hard to handicap who can and who can't. What do you think about what we're seeing with just the cost of owning a football team?

The business seems inflation-proof. I could be wrong. And recession-proof. And recession-proof at the same time. So the purchase of Denver, of the franchise, not only did it leapfrog the previous purchase in 2018 by $2 billion, it also comes along with potentially another $2 billion stadium at some point being built. And that's only a 20-year-old stadium that they're currently playing in. So the money is – I mean it's been off the charts, but now it's off, off, off the charts. How do you feel that this impacts the sport that we love, the game itself?

I mean, look, not only is it recession-proof, it goes up in value, but it delivers unbelievable ratings. I mean, it's the only thing that the networks can count on to deliver a huge rating. I mean, it just delivers, And the demographics are just incredible. And they go up and up and up. And they watch it live. And now it's streaming and you watch it live. And now the way that betting, I mean, it's always worlds colliding. In this new book, I wrote about television's impact on football.

I wrote about how ABC, this is so strange. ABC was the worst show on Monday nights during the early 70s because CBS had Gunsmoke and I Love Lucy and Mayberry RFD. They controlled 47 percent of the market share. NBC had Rowan and Martin and they controlled 29, 30 percent of the market share. And ABC barely could get off the ground. So they paid $16 million for three years to buy Monday Night Football. They put Cosell in the booth. And all of a sudden, now they brought advertisements. And this little brewing company called Miller Brewing wanted to sell a diet beer. And so they bought ads on Monday Night.

Next thing you know, we've got this unbelievable collision, right? It's amazing, right? And so it's just all of a sudden now this advertising world blows. Everything that touches the NFL explodes. It just explodes. Hey, John, put that chart up for Michael. Ten most expensive Americans. So this is Denver acquired this year $4.65 billion,

and God knows how much else he's going to spend. The previous highest price was Stevie Cohen in 2020. So two years ago. Josh, look at Tepper when he bought the Panthers. What a steal. And the Panthers were half the price. And by the way, the investment bank that was marketing the Panthers was rumoring that could be as much as $3 billion. And maybe that's a tactic to get somebody to pay up higher than they normally would. It's the same group that ultimately sold the Broncos. The Rockets, you see the Dodgers, the Clippers. So it seems like it's only going in one direction,

but it seems in the last five years, things have really accelerated. But, Michael, I feel like there's no turnover in the NFL. Who the hell would sell a team? Why would you? Because the Brown family has their estate in plan. I think the Big Wolf, all these young owners that have had generation that were founded by uh back in ralph hayes oldsmobile dealership in canton they've all been able to pass along the giants sold 50 you know here's what here's the question that i have and this is to me from a

player's point of view the increased value of these franchises. You know, what, you know, Kraft bought the Patriots for what, $160 million, whatever it is. It's worth, what, $6 billion today. How much is that attributed to Brady and Belichick? A lot. Right. But they don't get that wealth. They don't get that wealth. Now, you know.

I hear they're okay. Yeah, they're probably doing well. But to me, there should be a little bit of a pool for the former players, for player development, for a lot of things based on the wealth of these franchises that are that the players are increasing the value of this. Now, the owners would say we could put anybody out there and people would watch. Probably true. But they there's certain cases where there's been such unbelievable value increase that you have to recognize it. But this is what LeBron talks about, equity and ownership. But how does that work for the fans who might want to see a player traded or let into free agency? And the player is like, no, I'm an equity owner. I'm going to finish my career here.

I wonder if the NBA, like you look at the NBA and the ratings numbers that they're just they're not even close. I mean, the Monday, the Canton game that started the NFL season, the preseason game drew the NBA out, drew the NBA finals. I mean, think about that. But I think in the NBA with India and all those other foreign numbers help solidify

the NBA. But the NBA you can buy an NBA team. I mean, it's expensive. It's hard to find. Where are you going to get an NFL team? They're not making any more. They're not making any more. They're going to make a few more NBA franchises. They'll do another expansion there. But

to your point, there is the amount that there is. And absent a scandal or something, an NBA franchise turns over because somebody gets caught on tapes, the same saying some, you know, it's really, really rare for those things to come up for sale. What would you guys, I mean, like the, when I grew up,

my last name's Lombardi. So I was born the year he became the Packer head coach. And when he left the Packers to go to the Washington Redskins, I became a Redskin fan, my whole, until I got paid by the 49ers. And so like, that was a once proud franchise. That franchise, if he were to ever sell it, it's going more than what Denver just went for. It's a historic franchise. Speaking of that, is Matt Ryan worse than Carson Wentz?

Holy moly. I would take Carson Wentz. Yeah. Michael, so the thing is, I remember when Balmer bought the Clippers. And if you looked at Twitter, all of a sudden, everyone was, like, figuring out, you know, the valuation of the Clippers. And it can't be worth that much because it's like, dude, the guy has $80 billion. It's worth whatever the fuck he wants to pay for it. It was one team.

It was one team available. It's a West Coast franchise. He lives in Seattle. It's a West coast NBA franchise and he's an NBA nut. What is it worth? It's worth what he feels like buying it for. Why is it so difficult? And that's where we are now. And I think, uh, look, look who this gets dominated by it's hedge fund guys and it's tech founders. And for them, these are trinkets. They could buy three of them. Yeah. It's loose cash.

Hey, Mike. Oh, I'm sorry. Where are you going? I want to look at this from a fan's perspective. We asked a question, is football recession-proof? Someone in the chat is saying it's recession-resistant, not recession-proof. Okay, I don't know.

Nobody's stopping going to football games ever. John, put this up. Average cost estimates to attend an NFL game. Michael, let me read this to you. The San Francisco 49ers have some of the most expensive, low-priced seats in the NFL. You could imagine that. It would cost a family of four $889 to go to a 49ers game.

Only four team home games, the Jets, the Colts, the Jaguars, and the Cardinals would cost a family of four less than $250 in tickets. This is crazy. An average family of four is going to spend $536 at any NFL game if they buy two beers and sodas each, pay for parking, and consume four hot dogs in total. That's my day alone. So I don't even – So looking at – visualizing this, John Chardoff, visualizing this, like how long can this go on for in an economy where you're seeing the consumer trade down in virtually every other place because of inflation?

Can't trade down in football. What are you trading down to? You say that, Josh, and I agree. Red zone. I look at that, right? And then I'm in Biloxi, Mississippi at the Beau Ravage Hotel in Biloxi. I know it. I look at that. Right. And then I'm in Biloxi, Mississippi, uh, at the Beau Ravage hotel in Biloxi. And I know it, and I'm in the steakhouse there and you know, it's fairly expensive and the place is crawling. Like, and I said to my wife, like, I thought we were in a

recession. Nope. Like, I mean like, okay, I get those numbers up there. Have you been to a steakhouse lately? Like there's now they've been able to cross through this line in steakhouses to get like $90 for a 10 ounce filet, right? I mean, like, it's just, I don't know where the money comes from. I don't have an answer for it. I'm not an economist. I don't, I don't get it. You know what else, you know what else you see now?

You see, you see first class full and coach two-thirds full. And that's something that I don't think that you ever used to see on a regular basis. That's what all my flights look like now, which speaks to, I think, a bifurcation in the American consumer. Yeah, I don't know where it comes from. I mean, like, and then if you said, can I watch all the games on my couch or do you want to go to a game? You know, I mean, if it's my son's games, I'm going. But like for me, it's, you know, but I'm glad they do. I mean, I love the fact that I'm a couch guy.

I go to one giant game a year. And if they go, if they ever make the playoffs, I'll go to any road game for that. I'm actually going to Vegas to see the Raiders play against the Colts in a few weeks. Cheapest ticket there is $158, which is insane. But I wanted to ask you, Michael, I was at my five-year-old's soft, whatever, T-ball game this weekend. And as a parent, you feel a certain amount of anxiety.

At a five-year-old's level, I was feeling it. I can't imagine what it's like for you. Your son, you're watching the game. Your son is the offensive coordinator for the Raiders. And Kyler is doing his thing. What is that? That must be totally mind-bending for you, your son, you're watching the game. Your son is the offensive coordinator for the Raiders, and Kyler is doing his thing. What is that? That must be totally mind-bending for you. You know, you're just sitting there like you were.

I watch both games as if I were a part of the franchise. You know, and you just try to keep your, you know, think about it. You make notes, and when he calls after the game, you just kind of offer if he wants some help and offer some suggestions. And, you know, he's lived it. I mean, he's grew up in it. So he knows the highs and the lows. You know, it's the great Billy Joel song, Summer Highland Falls. It's either sadness or euphoria. I mean, you feel it every day. There's that thin line, right? And they get it. And the hard part is their kids. You know, their kids are so into it. You know, they're so into it and they they're

so young. They cry when they lose. And, you know, like I can remember my youngest one who's at the Panthers. We were losing at halftime in the Super Bowl to the Tampa Bay Bucs. He was in tears. I couldn't get my cell phone to get through to him because the stadium didn't have enough cell coverage. So it's hard. That's hard on the kids. The boys are old enough to get it. As Hyman Roth said, this is the business they've chosen. They to get they got to do it hard for you to like restrain sending a

text you wouldn't you wouldn't do that no i mean i i i would i don't want to nose into their world you know like i like springsteen wrote a great song uh you know uh long time coming and and and it's about the mistakes you don't want your kids to make the mistakes of your own, you know? And so that song really resonated with me, especially as they got it into this business, is because I don't want them to make any of the mistakes. So I want them to come to me for help, not for me to talk about my career. All right, Michael, we're going to do one more question, then we're going to get some rapid fire.

We'll let you get out of here. Josh and I had a debate a couple of years ago. Is it easier to turn around an NFL franchise or an NBA franchise? And to me, this is not even close because there's no such thing as the NBA championship hangover. It's always the same teams. There's very little turnover, relatively at the top. With the NFL, the Super Bowl hangover is a thing. The Bengals are 0-2. The Rams look like shit, and they almost blew a lead to the Falcons, who suck. So I think that it's not, I'm not saying it's easier, but there's much more turnover in the NFL. You can go from last to first quicker in the NFL than you can in the NBA, is my take.

Josh disagrees. Josh, shut up. I think you get the right player. You could have equally turned an NBA franchise. Michael, we want to hear from you. I was talking to a guy. I was thinking about buying an NBA team. And I told him, I said, I think the hardest thing to do is to change the culture in the NBA building.

I think that would be impossible because the players run the building. The team doesn't run the building. The players, if they don't want to practice and you've got all this. The NBA and the NFL, you could change the culture in a building. And once you change the culture in the building and you start to get good players, if the owner buys in, you can win. But the NBA, it would be really hard to change that culture. I mean, the Spurs were able to have their culture.

It's been hard to duplicate, but as good as their culture is, unless they get a top two pick, it's hard to win in that league. Did Miami have a culture before they managed to recruit Dwayne Wade and LeBron James to play together? Yes, Pat Riley. Yes, of course they did. I know, but were they winning? That was the culture.

But I think you're right, Josh. I think that you need players that fit the culture that are elite, and that's a hard thing to find. I mean, like, like Brady, you know, his uniqueness in terms of his competitiveness and his drive fit that culture. He enhanced the culture. Which one? Tampa Bay? And then he brought that culture with him to Tampa Bay, because look, I always said this about Tampa Bay, you know,

that's a hard job in Tampa Bay because there's a lot of stuff to do in Tampa Bay, starting with a lot of strip clubs. So, you know, football isn't always number one, two, three on the list there. Same thing in Miami. You got to have, the culture's got to be right. Like New Orleans, you got to have a really good culture in those towns. If you're the, if you're the GM, because there's too much to do in those towns, they made it work with Jimmy Butler. So the heater and pretty good play.

I think what Jimmy Butler, Jimmy Butler's a hard ass. He wants to work and play. I mean, like he'll work. I think Butler fits their culture. So he might be the only guy that bounced, bounced, bounced and was actually probably right at every step of the way. Well, you know, in Philly, he was too hard on the players. He was obviously right there. In Minnesota, he was right.

You know, Ben Simmons, it was too not, you know, Ben Simmons wants to go to Dairy Queen after the game. Everybody plays right field. Let's go to Dairy Queen. I think what Josh was right about is this idea that all it takes in the nba is one player and there's impact the impact of one player in basketball versus one player in football it's obvious 100 i don't disagree with that but you got to have that one like jeff van gundy has a great quote he says your best player must set the tone of intolerance for anything gets in the way of winning.

And if that best player is like Simmons, Julius Randle doesn't really care. We're screwed. Then you're screwed. Yeah. We're screwed. All right, Michael,

rapid fire. Let's go. Um, first coach to get fired. First coach to get fired. You know, I, I think they're going to let the season play.

Cause what do you do when you fire a coach? Right? Like it doesn't. NBA. I mean, they do it in the NFL. They do it. Yeah, but I mean, to me, you know, I think you've got to be more practical than just fire the guy in the first game. Let me think here.

Obviously, everybody would think Matt Ruhle. I think Matt, you know, my son's on that staff, so I hope they turn that thing around, you know, so I wouldn't even say him. You know, I think if the Jets don't, I think still, I was going to get fired. Well, he went for it. He pulled the Jim fossil. Yeah. He doubled down. We'll see how long that lasts. He's taking receipts. All right. Worst division. I think it's pretty easy.

I think it's the South. Yeah. I mean the AFC South. I think the Titans are playing tonight. Again, America gets the what? Okay. Yeah. America gets, but to me, the AFC has the best quarterbacks. The South's the worst division. Yeah. Best player in the league? The best player in the league right now is Josh Allen. Manningcast.

Love it or hate it. I don't listen to anything. I usually watch games with the volume off, so I don't really pay attention to either of that. I don't like the announcers bothering me. I should have known. Are the Patriots in the beginning of a multi-year bear market?

I think the Patriots are in a transitionary state. I think there's no doubt. I think they're trying to get back to being good. I mean, it's, you gotta, you know, when you go down the bottom of the mountain, you gotta get good before you get great. They were good last year. They gotta get back.

All right, last one. Who do you have tonight? Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins has the worst record in history on Monday Night Football. Yeah, and if he gets hit early in the game, it's not good. I like Philly tonight. I think Philly's like the old Utah Jazz. They're hard to play in the regular season

because they run the ball. They're running Oklahoma's offense. They're running the single wing with Jalen Hurts. They will tell you they're not, but they really are. They're hard to play. And I think Philly's pass rush will get after Cousins a little bit. I like Tennessee to cover the 10 tonight. I think it'll be a closer game than Buffalo just blowing them out. It's going to be

rainy and windy up there in Buffalo. Perfect for September. I was thinking about taking Tennessee. I think you talked me into it. I would just finish by saying the Giants are going to be 3-0. Dak's not playing. Dude! No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right. We want to let everybody know, Michael, where they could follow you.

We mentioned your two podcasts at the top. Let me just say them again. GM Shuffle is for the ringer? No, GM Shuffle is for DraftKings. Oh, for DraftKings. It's called DraftKings and VEASAN. I do a daily show from 12 to 2, Monday through Friday on VEASAN, and then on Saturday and Sunday at the Borgata from 10 to 12.

Okay. Got it. Oh, live at the Borgata. Yeah, live from the Borgata. It's great in there. I'm on the sportsbook. It's awesome. Awesome.

All right. And we can expect people who are into your insights to follow you on Twitter. And you and I talked about, you're going to get more involved in LinkedIn and Instagram now. I'm definitely going to, you're, you're coaching me up on Instagram. I just get tired of seeing,

I have 72 messages from people that want to make me a better person on Instagram. So I'm going to try. Well, we so much appreciate you joining us. I want to wish you a great season of commentating and a great season of your sons. And we'll be rooting for their respective franchises as well. And thank you so much for doing this.

It's a real thrill for Michael and I. We're such big fans of yours. Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate it. How's your brother, Michael, by the way? You good? All right.

We'll do that offline. Thanks, Michael. Thank you. Thank you so much, Michael. Bye-bye. thanks Michael thank you so much Michael bye bye