The Confessionals - 116: The Ghost of John Wayne Gacy

Episode Date: March 12, 2019

On Episode 116, guest James shares stories of his personal interactions with the infamous serial killer John Wayne Gacy. During the last two years of Gacy’s life, James spoke with Gacy one-on-one multiples times, as he gained insight into the mind of a serial killer. When the time came for Gacy to be put to death, James chose not to oblige a last request from him, a decision that seems to have a spawned a haunting from the dead Gacy himself. YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaINewsletter: https://www.theconfessionalspodcast.com/the-newsletterPatreon: www.patreon.com/TheConfessionalsWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail]: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcastTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelShow Intro INSTRUMENTAL: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyub39AXxUwShow Intro FREE DOWNLOAD: https://bit.ly/2HxNcw3

This was all circulating around the base that a giant had to kill, but no one was supposed to talk about it. I saw three long, bony fingers reach up underneath the door, curl up to grab it, and then disappear. When he came over to me, dude, he slithered over to me. And this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen. And he starts running and firing up this giant. But the giant moves. He's got a spear in one hand and he's running really fast and spears Dan holds him up like this. Somebody else shoot him in the face, shoot him in the face.

They basically decapitated. Feel something pulling at my leg and I look over and there are two small gray entities. And they're literally, I'm getting pulled off the bed. I reached my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know I'm seeing it. A monster. Yep. Welcome to the show, everybody.

You're listening to The Confessionals. I am your host, Tony Merkel. Thank you for being here. If you've had an encounter or a story you'd like to share with me on the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is The Confessionalspodcast at gmail.com. That's The Confessionalspodcast at gmail.com. Or go to the website, Theconfessionalspodcast.com. Hit the connection section, and you can reach me that way as well.

Either way it works for me, just get a hold of me. Before we get into our Art Bell iTunes, 5. star ratings and reviews. I want to remind everybody that we had to take down our YouTube channel. So if you were subscribed to the YouTube channel and we had about 3,500 people subscribed, you're no longer subscribed. So go to YouTube.com, look up the confessions and hit subscribe. We're rebuilding the channel, my friends, one subscriber at a time. Now this week's Art Bell iTunes five star rating and reviews is Dawn BZ, Amelia Mayfest, ESank 1, P. Bobo, Cliffie, Cliffy 208, no witness,

cork, spork, contraband the rebel, two Ben Chiva, Diane C-66, Backwoods 911-1-1-5, Jesse G. Wow, Madeline Fiesta Man, TL, and Ghost Seekers 75. Thank you very much for going to iTunes and leaving that five-star rating and review. It helps to show out a lot, and I really do appreciate it.

Moving on to the Patreon shout-house. This is for anybody who goes to patreon.com, slash the Confessionals and signs up to become a monthly supporter of the show. And this week's shoutouts is Jeff T and Tyler W. Thank you very much, guys, for going to patreon.com forward slash the confessionals and signing up to become patrons. I really do appreciate it. And we got some big things coming down the pike.

So stay tuned for that. Now, let's get into this week's show. This week we have James coming on and James actually spent about two years of his life getting to know and getting into the mind of a serial killer, a very famous serial killer. by the name of John Wayne Gacy. James comes on and shares his experiences with John while John was alive, and then also shares John's odd request right before he died to James that led to John haunting James.

So let's get into it right now. Okay, today we have James on the show, and James, how you doing, man? They're pretty good. How are you doing? Good, man. So you have a different experience, man. Like, I remember when you emailed me, I just sat there and was just like, huh. Because it's just, it's just different, man. You spent time with somebody that was on death row, and then you saw them after they were executed. And if you could, before we, you know,

go into a conversation about this, just tell the audience exactly how this all unfolded and what happened. Okay, it started when I was an undergrad. I was actually going to school in Kentucky, working on my criminal justice degree. And I had had an interest in, serial homicide and serial killer research working on papers. And I knew that I was going to go to grad school. So what I did was after one night we were, a bunch of guys were watching a movie, and it was actually a movie called to Catch a Killer, and it was on WGN, and it was the movie about John Gacy.

And after the movie, I just had a bunch of questions. And that night on WGN's Chicago TV, they showed a response from Gacy, and they showed his mailing address. to write the address down. And a couple days later, I actually wrote to Gacy. And then about a week later, I got a response. And he said, hey, you seem to know everything about my case. There's a lot you don't know. Why don't you come up to visit me and I'll show you everything, the truth about my case.

Well, I was saying that, I kind of debated back and forth, back and forth, and finally decided that I was going to go visit. I called the Department of Corrections in Springfield to make sure that there was no problems with me visiting. and they said, no, you know, you're doing this academically based, there shouldn't be any issues. So I sent him a letter back and said, yeah, I guess I'll visit. And this is the time that I wanted to visit. He rolled me back. He said, sure.

And he said, come on. So that's what I did. I, you know, fill out the necessary pay for work, took the drive to Minard, Illinois, and checked in that morning, went through the security within an hour, you know, checking in. I'm on death row. And the one thing that was so just vivid about that whole experience was I remember checking in and signing in on the roster and I hear this man yelling

and he's yelling at the guards. And he's waiting in this waiting area because the guards were locked away from the visitors on the death row visitation side and this man steps out and it's this little, you know, heavy set guy, a real northern accent,

just yelling obscenities, absurdities, just both come to find out, that's who I was set to visit. It was John Wayne Gacy. Jeez. So, you know, I sign in and they unlock the

barrier door between them and the visiting room. And I go in and sit down and we start talking. And that was in 1992, and I visited him up until 1994. I visited him up until 1994. My last visit with him was April 1st of 1994.

So we visited over a two-year period at about 80-plus hours with him of just talking with him about the case. And, you know, among other things, baseball and other things, politics. But it was one of those experiences that was really weird because I was telling someone the other day that I can remember as a child growing up in the Boot Hill of Missouri, setting down in December of 78 on watching the television news with my dad and seeing when this guy got arrested.

Because I remember them carrying the bags out because they displayed it on the channel. It was on WSIL News out of Harrisburg, Illinois. And I remember them. And I remember asking my dad, what's going on? You know, my dad was trying to shelter me. He just said, you know, there's some really bad people in this world. And years later, I never thought that I'd get a chance to meet this guy face-to-face. and I did, you know, for two years.

And it was one of those things that I really never knew what to expect when I would go visit because he was one of those guys who, and, you know, even when asking him questions, back and forth about how innocent he was and even when you would bring up the amount of bodies that were found on his house side,

it was like, well, somebody else was responsible for him. I knew a little bit, but I wasn't responsible. and it would actually, I think, make their mind believe that they didn't have anything to do with it. And it was one of those things where now I see it, but every time that I would go and come away, it was like a little piece of me. It was like just eat. And I even think that my parents realized that even though they were in Missouri and I was in Kentucky going to school and then eventually going to grad school in Alabama. My mother said something that was garbage out. and I really believe that.

I believe that that exposure to this man sort of started just eating away at me because we're talking about nothing but pure evil and we're talking about going to a location that's filled with nothing but hostility and horror and evil of many men incarcerated on death row. And it was something that, you know, I don't think that very many people get to experience that,

but I think after a while it initially took its toll on me had no risk of human life whatsoever. I tried to turn it into a sort of a sexually related voice to him. Called him out. I was 70 style bused him all the way through. And my folk to him was on and said, hey, it looks like, yeah. And he says, you know, just in seeing you die. After that, I got a letter from our contact.

Wow. Yeah, I mean, because he died almost a month. I think it was a month exactly to the day that he called you to invite you up, right? I mean, he died, I think it was May 10th or 11th or something like that. Yeah, May 10th was his execution. shooting date and the last time we spoke on the phone on April 10th. So yeah, that was the last contact of him. I was literally a month later. Wow. And so he, I'm assuming, I don't know a ton about him. I remember reading about him a little bit once you emailed me. He, he murdered, what,

over like 30 people and it was all men or boys. So I'm assuming he was having, I guess, sexual relationships with them and then killing them, right? Correct. He did. He killed 33 young men and boys in the Chicago area. And then on some occasions, which is really disturbing, he would pull what he called doubles night. And then he would kill two guys in one night.

But generally, he would pick them up and ask them if they wanted to party. And then that always led to, you know, sex. And then eventually, he would kill him. And what he did was he did this thing called a rope trick. And he would somehow persuade these guys to put a rope around

their neck. And he would always say, you know, I do clown work. I do for charity work. I dress up as a clown. And I work with kids in hospitals. And once the people put the rope around the neck, he would also, in a sense, persuade them to put on the handcuffs. And when they did that, he would put the handcuffs on first and say,

hey, listen, you know, this is really easy. And then he would get out of the handcuffs, boys, and men would put the handcuffs on. And then they would say, I can't get out. He goes, you can't get out because the trick is you have to have the key. And then after that, he would usually, you know, choke him to death. And depending on how he felt the time, he would either get the process of burying the body in his crawl space. Or he would, and once the crawl space become a fool, what he did was he started dumping the bodies in the Desplanes River.

But it was all premeditated because what he would do is he would have thieves in his cross. So he knew in advance that he was going to kill somebody. He had the graves pre-dugg. Who were his workers? He actually had a construction business called PDM, painting, decorating, and maintenance. And his workers were young men and boys that worked around the Chicago area. And then some of the people that he had met during the process, some of the guys that were listed in the true crime books,

actually their names were changed. You know, he brought it out at once he went to trial that some of these guys were also involved in the killings that helped him transport and stuff like that. But, you know, these guys were eventually cleared. And when I was in the process of doing my master's research, I talked to William Coco, who was the prosecutor on the case. And then I talked to Mr. Joe Kosezziak. He's passed since then. And, you know, they cleared these people. They said they were not involved in these crimes like he said they were.

but yeah, he basically was run his own construction business with men that he knew and boys that he did. And the way that he was able to get these guys to work for him was that he was paying them higher than the normal minimum wage at the time. Wow. So, I mean, basically it was one of those situations where this guy's paying me good money, so I'm not going to ask questions as to why I'm digging holes in his crawl space. I'm just going to do it. They said they were getting paid well. And that's how he eventually got his last victim, the young man. he met him in a pharmacy and he was in there basically saying you know I start my people off at $5 an hour and when you think about it in 1978 in Chicago

$5 an hour for a kid is a lot of money in an hour and this kid talked to him and the kid ended up going home with him and he killed that kid that night and it was actually one of the things that got the desplains police to actually start

focusing on him and basically surveilled him. And they didn't do that before because generally at that time, runaways were sort of like, you know, you had to wait so many hours before they would actually take it seriously. And the last victim, when his parents came in, they went to the police station and they said, you know, this is not right. And they're like, the police were like, what makes your child different than any others?

And basically they're like, you know, the mother said, tonight's my birthday. and he would never miss my birthday. He's not a runaway. Something's happened to him. And that's when the police started, like, you know, taking this seriously. This man did this for so many years, which is just unbelievable. It would never happen in today's society.

I don't think so with forensics and everything that we have at our hand. But during that time, he was allowed to get away with it because he was focused on people, runaways and people that were, you know, prostituting and things like that. And there was just not a lot of emphasis placed on it. Wow. So was it that. that situation where the boy went missing on mom's birthday, that kind of led to the break in the case? Yes, sir, that's what happened. They knew that, you know, this was a good kid. He was in high school.

He had never caused any problems before. He was, you know, good grades, had a girlfriend. It was just not something that he was known to do. He never ran away. And that's what the parents sort of let the police officers know. and Des Plains is one of those suburbs outside of Chicago. And it was where they started going. And I think the head detective at the time, he had a son that was very similar to the young man's age. And he believed the family. And then what they started doing is they started doing a background check on Gacy.

And wrong that he had gotten in trouble in Iowa. And when they started pulling records, they realized that he'd went to prison for sodomy on a mine. And, you know, I think whenever he was convicted in Iowa, and it just so happened that he was convicted in Iowa on a young man that had worked for him in the restaurant that he was running, he got a 10-year sentence for sodomy on a minor, and ended up doing about 16, 18 months in prison and was released. and then when he was released to Chicago, he lived with his mother, and that's when he started his construction business. Now, the one thing that sort of has been his defense while he was living is that not every person that went home with him or every person that he picked up, he murdered. And that is true. But there are so few of those compared to the 33 others that he did kill.

What was the distinguishing factor for that, though? Did he ever give a reason why he didn't murder some people? bad luck story. And then one, there were a couple young men that he brutally tortured over the course

of picking them up night and, you know, the young man, actually one of the young men were used to testify in the trial and the young man, it was just so broke

at that time as far as mentally that they couldn't rely on him as a witness. And then there was another young man that he picked up. And, um,

The young man basically went to the police and they said, you know, they really didn't believe him is his story. And he started his own surveillance and found out who he was. And then ended up, you know, getting charges brought against him. And the guy was out of court for $3,000, which, you know, when he was arrested, that comes to play during the trial. It was just like this guy was always one step ahead. Everybody was getting away with it. And because I think that guy set up for $3,000, you know, there was. wasn't much credibility to him. And that, man, he horroarvest, you know, and I know you're sure

you want to keep it clean and everything, but he, he sodomized this guy with a fire poker. Wow. And then dumped him out, and he used chloroform on him the night before, and he'd used so much chloroform on the guy's face, if that guy's face looked like it had been burned, you know, like second or third degree burns. So he tortures this guy over the course of multiple days. did he have this guy in captivity and then how'd the guy get away? He actually just, it was over the course of the night. He picked him up, torched him

over the course of the night, you know, the whole deviant sex sort of thing that he did to him. And then basically he used chloroform and knocked the guys out and then he dumped the guy in a park in Chicago

at the foot of a statue. The guy passed out probably after going through all that abuse and with the chloroform woke up. They went to a police, but the police really didn't take him seriously. Did he think the guy was just going to die? Is that why he just dumped him there? Or what? I mean, it seems like it goes against his routine.

I know, and that was a couple times he did that. I don't know what he was thinking, you know. I guess he thought the guy wouldn't say anything. I guess he thought that the guy was scared of him. And, you know, the guy wrote a book and said that, I believe in the book, he said that, you know, if you say anything to please, I'll come back and kill you. because I think in both instances where a couple of guys were released, he looked in their wallets and seen their driver's license or identification.

He says, I know where you live at, that sort of thing. But that guy was so severely tortured. I think he's like, it don't matter at this point. That's pretty intense, man. That's pretty intense. And I'm seeing here, I'm looking at his Wikipedia page. It looks like, so he started doing these murders in 1972 through 1978. and it looks like he was married from 1972 to 76,

so four years of the six years, he was actually married to somebody. How'd that whole thing work out? He was actually married twice. He was actually married whenever he, after he graduated high school, a young lady who was from Iowa and her father owned a chain of well-known restaurants,

and I'm not going to mention them. And he married her, and whenever he was convicted on sodomy, the day that he was convicted, she divorced him. So he went to prison, and then when he got out of prison, he actually was released, he met up with a formal childhood or, you know, high school girlfriend, and she had two little girls, and he basically adopted them and became their stepdad. But it got to the point where he started bringing young boys home while he was married,

and I think it's even been quoted as why I said, you know, she could see him bringing home teenage boys and he had things set up at his garage like a mattress and stuff like that and then his wife reported I think it was in 1976 or it was right before they got divorced on Mother's Day

he told her he says this will be the last time that we have any sort of sexual relation because I feel like I'm going the other way and that led to her eventually moving out and taking the girls with him and that's when he started doing his cruising again and then he really had no person to stop him because he could come and go as he pleased

and bring people to his house as he placed. So was he actually murdering people while he was married to this lady? I believe he was, yes. Okay. And he even was so callous and I guess just, I don't know what I'm looking for, but he was so cocky that he would have these yearly

barbecue parties, Fourth of July parties at his house. and one of the most disturbing things is one of these barbecue grills that he had set up, the pit set up. He had actually buried one of his victims underneath the barbecue pit that he used to entertain these folks with at these parties. Wow. That's gutsy. That's really gutsy. Yeah. Jeez.

So you're visiting him, and he says to you that, you know, you don't know a whole lot of the story. Basically, you only have one side. What were some of the things that he was thrown at you to try and. to change your mind as to, you know, the fact that he's not the person who did it or that, you know, the media has it wrong kind of thing. Looking for me to bring in an association with William Lee in Houston, Texas. It was a very similar case in the early 1970s. And then he said that, you know, these guys were involved with Nambla.

And I don't know if you're familiar with what Nambla is. No, not. Do you want me to say what it is? Yeah, go ahead. it's the North American man-boy love association. Okay. And he said that they were involved in that, and he was just the fall guy. You know, there was all these guys that were ordering these boys,

and he was a one that ended up. He was a nice guy, and, you know, they took advantage up him and things like that. And then another thing that he would say was that he couldn't be responsible because he lived at 8213 Somerdale Drive, and that at his location, he wasn't the only one who had keys to the residence. He said there were like 12 keys that were out. And so, you know, some of these other people could be a responsible for it. And he even did a checklist of the people that lived there.

And he would put beside them whether they were trustworthy or not. It's like I'd say comical, but it was that sort of stuff that he would put out. And then, you know, he would just go to all kinds of things saying that he would, wasn't there when this things happened. He didn't have any idea of who these people were. There was not a whole lot of information base that he had that was proof that he actually was not responsible. He said that it was what he used to call it was state. They knowingly knew that I was innocent, and this is all state's fantasy theory, just to convict an innocent man. Wow. So he was really just pushing the blame game on everybody else that he could.

What's thought everybody else was responsible. He would, he would sort of mention it and then sort of back away from it like he knew about a crime. He did that one time. He did actually admit to me the killing the first young man that he picked up after a guy to the prison and he said that he picked a young man up. They went back to his house to party and to do their thing. And that morning he woke up and the guy was coming towards him with a knife. And he said what I did was I got into a fight with him because I thought he was going

to stab me in a restaurant. I ended up stabbing in the chest. And then I panicked. And I said, why didn't you call the cops? You're telling me that you think it's self-defense. He goes, no, no, they wouldn't believe that. I just got out of prison for that thing in Iowa, so they wouldn't go believe me. He said, told it the only thing I did was Barry him.

And I just, I never could agree with that. And I said, you should have called the police if you're saying that self-defense. And then he said, well, you know, the really bad thing about it is once I got through, you know, after I killed him, I got up and went in the kitchen. And I realized that he had the knock and he was cutting. He was actually fixing me breakfast. Oh, my gosh. And then he did admit to saying that he was aware of the last victim, but he tried to blame one of the guys that worked for him. He says, I knew that he was dead. He actually told me that the day that the detective came to his house.

He said the young boy was there. He said he was already dead. He said, hey, he had to have search warrant. He would have found him in then. And then he just sort of skipped around. He would hit on bits and pieces all the time. And the unfortunate thing was that because he was when he was alive, I had a very difficult time of getting hold of his confession statement that he gave the police department. I don't know if it was regard to the appeal process because when he was, you know, on death row, he obviously had appeals. And I had to wait actually until he was executed. I had to go through the Freedom of Information Act to get a copy of his confession statement that he gave the police officers at the time. That's intense, man. And you said you were going into criminal justice, right?

Right, yes. Is that what you do today? Are you some kind of lawyer or something like that? No, I'm not a lawyer. I'm actually a juvenile probation officer to have been one for over 20 years. Okay. So you obviously have looked into the serial aspect side of things, at least with Gacy. And one thing, and I'm going to ask you, you may not know, no, but have you ever wondered

why there are so many serial killers from like the later half of the 1900s to present time. Like it seems like it really picked up the later half of the 1900s. You ever wonder why that is? Well, I can tell you this. I actually, I've been teaching a serial homicide course for about the last 17, 18 years. I do it at the college here in town. And that's a question that always comes up because generally when I teach the class, my classes are always full.

There's really no true answer for that, but during the 70s and 90s, there was sort of like a serial killer explosion. And it was like, especially on the West Coast in California, Texas, and in Florida, it seemed just there was like this just unbelievable amount of serial killers that were being arrested and being called. And especially in California, you know, every time you turn on the TV or you pick up the paper, there was always something going on, something happening. and a lot of it would probably be based on the typologies that you have of the serial murders. There's really no true to answer as to why people are killing. That's why people always say, is there a theoretical basis? And there's not really a real theoretical basis when it comes to serial murder because you can, you know, you can apply a theory to how you want it to work out in a sense.

But the question, and I don't have the answer for it. It's just like some people, and I hate to say it seems like some people are born evil. But, man, I tell you, after meeting him, Casey, I'm not for sure. And I always ask that's a question for my students. I was like, do you believe that someone can be born evil or be born bad? And as the years go by, there are more and more students that raise their hand and say yes. All right, you know what time it is. It's March Madness time of the year.

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confessionals. That's promo code confessions. You play, you win, you get paid only at my bookie. And don't pick Duke to win the ACC tournament. I'm telling you right now, there's Zion Williamson list. They are not going to make it pass. North Carolina. Okay, I'm out of here. Bye. Slipping and injured is Zion Williamson. He broke his shoe with his own foot. You know, I wonder, like, if there was some kind of, like, cultural shift that happened around that time that started producing a different mindset of people. I mean, if you're talking

about a lot of these things happening in the 1970s, I'm assuming these guys were in the range of their, you know, probably 20s to 40s, 50s. I mean, that's a, that's a wide range of ages for a cultural shift to impact people on such a psychological level. It's hard to put a finger on something that could have done that, you know what I mean? Right. Is it nature versus nurture what happened to them in their childhood? And I think childhood does play a lot into it. Is it the McDonald's triad, you know, the paromaniot, bedwetting cruelty to animals? You know, they say that all serial killers have at least one aspect of that. There's so many different things. Is it the environment,

what caused them to snap. We just don't know. I think there's no real true answer, and I think that's why you have so many people researching this topic. But the thing about it is they need to realize that when you start researching this topic, this stuff is bad stuff.

You know, there's so many amount there have been arrested that we know about the scary thing is how many of them are out there that we don't know about you know and I just read an article

the other day where a guy that was a team killer in Southern California arrested around the same time as Gacy I think he just he's 7th or 38th year on death row

the ones that are going to prison and put on death row aren't even being executed it's just one of those things where you know they're still there and I've

seen recently where they now think that there's another one in Florida now, a new zero killer. Really? I didn't hear about that one. Yeah, they said that it was last week or the week before last that there's this one area in Florida where there are a few people who are a rash number of suicides. And they said they start investigated because they don't think it is actually suicides. They actually think that there's a killer behind it. I guess it's one of those things where you're never going to be able to really cure society. or the world of these kind of problems,

as long as there's, you know, the human aspect of things. I mean, people, human beings do just crazy things. I mean, you look at these serial killers and they range from, you know, five people to 300 plus people, you know. And I was, I was actually listening to some interviews. I forget what it was. Maybe it was a podcast about the happy face killer. And it was about his daughter, though.

His daughter was do, I think it was a podcast. She was doing some kind of investigative. of journalism where she was, you know, talking to people about that, you know, maybe the victim's children, you know, they're talking and things. And one of the things that she was worried about is that if there was some kind of genetic thing that got passed on to her, that she would have the ability to do what her dad did and it scared her a lot. And they went and, uh, they, they went and visited some kind like psychologist. He wasn't a psychologist. So I forget the details of it. But this guy was like a doctor that really knew how to read brain scans and things like that. And it turns out the, the

the doctor himself has traits of, I guess, I don't know if the term is to, is a psychopath, but there was a term they were using that the doctor himself had, which serial killers have as well, but the doctor said that there's a threshold. And he just comes up just to that threshold without crossing over that line, that he's not really a danger to society. He'll do things like, without even knowing it, he'll put like his children in harm's way, just not even really thinking about, just like his kid would be walking by and he'll be goofing around, just push him a little too hard and the kid almost falls down to stare at the thing. He's not really thinking about it, but he has that little switch in his head.

And they did a test on her and she came back cleaning everything. But hearing that, I was thinking, man, so there are, you know, maybe some things in people's brains that if they have too much of, it pushes them over the edge to be able to maybe do things like this. Yeah, it's sort of like there's a checklist of it, you know, like superficial, blibness and charm. and that's what I, you know, I give a handout to my students every semester and it's that collectively checklist. And I was like, you know, when you look at this checklist, how many

of you people in here, how many of you kids in here can identify with some of these points? Or I ask them back questions, like, how many of you are in a relationship now with someone who has several of these points? And it's like you said, it's just, do you go to the edge and do you make that next step like that doctor said? You know, that's the thing about it. there's the everyone who keeps in line, and then there's those that sort of go past the lines and break the norms and fall into that other classification. Yeah, it's, it's, I do find this stuff fascinating,

and I personally wouldn't mind doing a podcast about this stuff, but the thing is, there's just so many true crime podcasts out there. I don't feel like dipping my toes into that water right now. But if I, if I did it, though, I'd probably do some similar format to this show where I'd have to be talking to somebody, like yourself, that, you know, knows about the situation, maybe something that was connected to it or something like that, that had a chance to speak with the person extensively, just to have a different aspect of how we go about the, every episode, you know? But right.

I appreciate you sharing all that. And that's not the only reason why you're here to, I wanted you to kind of give a background as to the whole thing, because he winds up getting executed. And that's not the end of the story for you and him, though. show bumps of Sussetian and I know it's coming. I lived in Tuscaloosa at the time after it was executed. And I remember watching the night, you know, it was one of those big things. Back in whenever there was a big notoriety or notorious criminal being executed or something happened.

You know, there was full coverage, you know, whether it was CNN or something like that, they were playing it all that long. And I remember watching that night. and I remember actually one of my professors at the time calling and say, hey, everything okay? I was like, yeah, everything's fine because he had known that I had invested a lot of time in working on this because that's what I was going to do,

my thesis on. And, you know, life went on as usual. And I guess probably a month, month and a half afterwards, I hadn't thought about the guy. You know, it was done. I just had to finish working on my thesis and, you know, complete the,

the requirements of get my graduate degree. And I'm, you know, in my apartment. And I get woken up one night. And it's probably about two or three in the morning. And it always seems to me that things always happen to me around two or three. I don't know what it is. If it's some sort of thing in my mind or what. But I raised right up out of bed.

And I'm looking in my small apartment and over in the corner, setting in the corner is John Gacy. And he's looking at me and he is snarling and snorting and just heavy breathing and look at me. And, you know, at the time it was just so vivid. From what I remember, it looked like his skin was sort of a bluish kind of color. But he was just sitting there snarling. And he wouldn't say anything, just snarling. and his lips wore out, his nose was flaring,

and I just look at him, and it seemed like it was probably, you know, a couple minutes. It was probably only only 30 seconds. And I look at him and look at him and look at him, and we're just having to stare back and forth. And then I say, John, and I close my eyes. It was like, God help me. And I opened my eyes, and he's gone.

Needless to say, after that, I turned the lights on, and I think I slept with the lights on that night. but it was one of those things that was so lifelike, and I literally woke up. I thought it was dream, but I woke up, and I see whatever this is in the corner. And it seemed like, now that I think about it, that was not the end of it,

because even after that, and even after, you know, defending my thesis and moving on, I had actually got accepted into a doctoral program in Pennsylvania, and I went up there to work on a PhD in criminology. And it seemed like after that had happened and what I'm going to do, nothing would fit into place. I went up there with the understanding that I was going to get an assistantship. I got up there. They didn't have one for me.

Things would happen in class that were just sort of odd. I had professors that would lose my research. papers. I'm talking about, you know, 15-60-page papers that I worked on. It would just be lost. And it was just like I couldn't identify

with the other peers that I was with. It was like some of them would make fun of me the way that I spoke, I guess my accent. And it was just like I wasn't connecting or belonging to anything. And then, after that, I moved back to Alabama and I started

doing an internship. We're not an internship. I was doing a case study ship. There was a place where I'd worked before, which eventually became my full-time employment. And first it was a little bumpy and rough, and then I had found a place closer to work. And I moved into this house, which was a old house that used to be a full,

you know, upstairs, downstairs house. And what they did is they changed it into four big apartments. And once I moved to that apartment, it felt like something was attached to that apartment. I don't know if it was John. I don't know what it was, but literally I lived in that apartment and the entire time that I lived in that apartment.

I got sick. I'd had all kinds of things end up having kidney stones. I remember in the winter that I would turn the heat up to 75, 80 degrees and it would be going for a blast. And the only room that would be warm would be my bedroom. everything else would be ice cold.

I remember laying in bed at night and feel like something was pushing on me. And it got to the point where I actually grabbed my Bible and I started sleeping my Bible on my chest. And then it wasn't just that. In the wintertime, I remember, you know, get home from work and I'd eat a sandwich and some chips or something like that. And if I wouldn't finish the sandwich, I would just throw it away in the trash. And I remember coming home the next day. And this happened on two or three occasions when I came home. And this is winter.

and you heard me say that the other rooms were ice-coed. Trash can, and there would be maggots crone in the trash can from that sandwiched out there away. That's like, hell is this possible. It's colded this. It's where a fly is coming from. It just seemed like there was this sort of like bond or whatever that was just following me around.

And that's when I think my mom, in a sense, started praying for me, and I started doing everything that I can and eventually got out of that environment. I met a nice young lady who eventually became my wife. And then after that happened, it was almost like it all stopped. And it hasn't been to me since then. That's interesting.

That's really interesting. You know, I... There's so many different ways I want to go about talking to you about this because I have initial thoughts and I know a little bit of the thing. about you as far as, you know, like, for instance, when we first started talking before we started the interview, you had said that you just come home from church. So let me just start there. I'm assuming, you know, you being a Southern guy or, you know, now a Southern guy, you're coming home from church. I'm assuming you're a Christian. What do your theological standpoints,

how do they play into your real life experiences? Is there a conflict? with what you've experienced to what you feel like you should believe? I think that I grew up, let me give you a little bit more background growing up in Missouri. I grew up in a Pentecostal church at that would tell you the way. So I grew up, you know, sort of seeing things that maybe other people hadn't seen growing up, you know, or seeing, you know, some odd things, not snake handling or none of that kind of stuff. but, you know, I've always believed in God sometimes straight away and realized that. I've had parents that were praying for me and other people praying for me.

And I believe that when I got in this whole field, I wanted to do something that would be able to help people. And I've always, you know, known that maybe whenever I was doing that stuff, interviewing stuff, maybe there would have been some conflict. and I think that that's why I tried to stay prayed up or my mom I know especially prayed for me because of that the individual I was going to see. But I always thought that there was a need to understand the process of these kind of people so I could educate others about it. You know, my faith has always been strong. I think that at a time and during that whole process that the good Lord was just watching over me and protect me. because after you've been exposed to that, like I said, you know, it got to the point where I've become desensitized everything. And it brings on depression and everything else.

And had it not been for the good Lord in my faith, I think that, you know, something could have happened. Something could have went the other way. And I'm just thankful that God and I have people that care about me and love me and will praying for me. Because if I didn't have that, who's to know, you know, what could happen. Yeah. And, you know, okay, so you have this experience. And just let me ask you, do you think that when you opened your eyes and you saw John sitting there with a grimace on his face, do you think that that was actually John? Or do you think that that was some kind of energy? Or do you think that that was a demon?

Or what are your thoughts? Like, just, you know, you're, I mean, you've had time to think about it. what do you think that was in your room that night? What it was. Presence. I was certain, you know, for horror movies that I won't watch this day, like the exorcist and stuff like that. And I truly believe that that was some sort of entity in that room. All right.

So do you think that maybe that was an entity that was connected to him at one time? And maybe the entity that was, I don't know, causing him to do these things? Do you think that, you know, he had a demonic presence in his life that was influencing him to do these murders? It may have been the latter. I do think that that was connected to him because I don't know why

it would have taken the form of him. Do you know what I'm saying? I think that there was some sort of connection because it was, Tony was just so vivid. It was John sitting in the corner of my house. And it was, like I said, the snarling and the heavy breathing.

It was him and I guess it was in a demonic form. And that's something that's always bothered me. ask people. You know, I mentioned to you in our email that I even asked somebody who was, you know, the dreams and stuff like that because I was desperate. I had no idea. And he could provide me with an answer. And I don't know. I just know that that was, that night was, it's something I'm never going to forget. I know that. Right. And it's interesting that you've had so much activity pick up after that experience. Did you, do you recall ever having any kind of paranormal type experiences before that happened?

Nothing that I can recall. You know, I will say that one time, and I don't know if you called this paranormal execution, I had taken a trip to Los Angeles and I was in a shop. And as soon as I went in the shop, I became, I thought it was going to vomit and eel. and I was with a friend of mine who was from Boston. I said, I got to get out here. And he said, what's wrong? I said, I don't know, but I said, I can't stay in the shop.

And as soon as I went out, it was like everything was lifted off me, and I felt perfectly signed. And I've asked people that was like, do you think that there's such a thing in some place being evil? And I said, because I really believed that I experienced that when I was in California. But other than anything else like with what I've seen with John, and I know, I've never experienced anything else. Yeah, there's a lot of different levels to these.

types of things. I think personally, I believe that any place can be haunted with evil. I don't think like my cell phone is evil in itself, you know, but I do think that, you know, things can become possessed and therefore become evil. But with this whole John situation, it, I don't have, you know, definitive answers or anything, but I do find it interesting that you have this experience. And how long was it after he was executed that this happened? It was a month and a half, two months. It wasn't that long afterwards. So it wasn't that long after. And so let me just draw this out. And this is just something that, you know, there's no proof behind it. But you visited him for two years. And he gets to know you.

You get to know him. There's obviously a comfort level that develops there to the point that you started feeling like, you know, like your mom said, what was it, trash in, trash out. Yeah, garbage, yeah. So, um, I wonder if John at some point became more attached to you than you realized in the moment. Um, and there's, there's a little bit of things that make me question that, like, for instance, the day he's executed, he asked you if you would come and be there. Uh, that's usually something for loved ones. That's usually something for family members, people that cared about that person, that person cared about them for closure. And he asked you to be there and you

denied him that. And I wonder if they have people that show up to watch their loved one, you know, be executed for closure. I wonder if there's a reverse to that where he didn't have closure because you didn't show up when he asked you to. And maybe there was an attraction there to you that he didn't that that you obviously didn't feel the same about but there was an attraction there that he wanted to have closure when he's executed with you there and he didn't have that and if if he starts haunting you and those hauntings just kind of keep going until when you get married and once you got married it's like that door is closed it's like you know uh I don't know. It's like him saying, okay, well, you know, you're off the market or, you know, something weird. I know it's weird to think of, but I mean, he was, you know, a serial killer and he killed all boys, all young men. He was, he was practicing a homosexual lifestyle. And I just wonder if he was, if he was attracted to you in a way that you didn't realize at the time.

And another young man that is him who actually wrote a book about him. And the young man, is deceased, which is really odd because not the process in which he's deceased. The young man took his own life. And I knew that John was very close to this young man. And I've always wondered, had that attachment to that young man caused that man to end up committing suicide. But I've never looked at that way in my situation, but you never know. Like I said, yeah, he asked me, I said, John, I have no, I said, that doesn't interest me. I had no desire to see them kill you.

I didn't, you know, I don't think I could see that with anybody. You know, if someone asked me that, I just couldn't do that. But I don't know, Tony. It's one of those things that I've always warned and questioned. And why did that happen to me? Why was it so vivid that night? Because it wasn't something that I had, you know, asked for what it to happen. It was just, it was there.

And it was out of the blood. Yeah, I just find it very interesting. and there's really, I mean, no rhyme or reason as to, you know, why it happened. We can just sit here and theorize and things like that. But, you know, I think it is good. You might have actually saved your own life by putting separation between you and him when you started noticing the changes in you, you know, because if that other person killed themselves, I mean, who knows if, you know, if you would have just kept on continuing

with the relationship, if there would have been a deeper impact than there already was. You know, my belief in God. Now, I will say something else, and I don't know how much of this you want to edit or water included, you know, or how are you going to do this? But before I finished, I'm sorry, I forgot to say this before I finished writing my thesis, I had to interview a couple other people. And like I said, this may be edited because I don't know what the liability issue is on this as far as me saying this. but it was a family member of his and I interviewed that person for a day

and when I was sitting at their kitchen table talking to them and asking them questions and going through the process the person kept looking away from me when they would answer the questions and that person was looking into another room. I was in the kitchen and they kept looking into the living room.

It was just the way their house was set up. and I couldn't figure it out and I was like, you know, how some people when you ask them questions some people we don't feel comfortable asking questions they look away or you know they just they don't want to answer it or they don't want to look you in the eye

and after we got done that day whenever I got up and was walking out I looked to where I thought that person was looking and it was in their front room and it was on the fireplace and on the fireplace there was like what looked like

to be this earned and speculate who I think was in that urn or what that earn was, but who knows? I've always wondered, was that his remains in that urn? And when that interview happened? That happened before or after his appearance in your room? That happened. It had to be... Okay.

I don't know, man. I don't know, but James, I'll tell you what, man. I appreciate you sharing the story on the show. That's for sure. Give me some answers, and hopefully, you know, I think that. that part of my life is done. But you know, it's one of those things where you always wonder, did I do something wrong or did something happen to cause that? Yeah. Well, I don't think you did anything wrong. I think a lot of times people have these

paranormal experiences and they're not asking for them. They just happen. And, you know, there's a whole other side of this world and reality that we're not accustomed to. We don't understand. And things happen that we have no rhyme or reason to. They just happen. and, you know, your situation, I don't think you were asking for anything. I think that there was some kind of obvious connection between you and him from spending so much time together in his last days of life that carried over after he died. And I don't know if that means it was him or if it was a demonic presence that was attached to him and therefore some way attached to you. I don't know. But I do know that this world has a lot more to offer than what our eyes see.

and I think the more we acknowledge that and try to comprehend the reality of that, I think the more comfortable and things will start falling in a place where we may not have answers, but we'll at least be able to accept the fact that things happen without knowing, you know, why they happened. Yeah, go ahead. You know, I know I love your podcast. I know you cover a lot of stuff and I listen intently to home because of some of the things. And I, you know, try to find a connection to what happened with me. but do you think somehow or is there any correlation or you know I'm just fishing maybe but why are I find it odd in my life with this whole process that I mentioned to you earlier I remember when this happened like when I was eight or nine years old in 1978 sitting in front of the TV

with my dad and then I just find it odd so many years later that I'm actually sitting across on this man interviewing him. And I just, I guess I've always questioned how that happened or why did that happen. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, do you think that that, when you were a kid and you saw that unfolding on TV, do you think that kind of sparked an interest in the direction of your life that it took? I don't know.

I think I was too young. I think I was worried about playing baseball and things like that, you know, at that time. Yeah. I mean, I know that, and this is, you know, here's some story time with Tony. But I know when I was a kid, and I don't remember how old I was. I think I was probably around that age, eight, nine, ten years old, probably no more than ten. I lived in a trailer park, very, very large trailer park out in the middle of nowhere, very bad neighborhood. And we, as kids, thought it would be a good idea one day to shoot some people's windows out with BB guns.

And we didn't know, I didn't know at least that there was somebody actually living in the trailer. I thought it was abandoned. And so we were shooting the windows out. And the person either came home or something happened. And the owner found out and called the police. The police came. And the police interviewed the kids across the street. And they said that I was there, but I never hit the window.

And the cop comes over to my house and sits me down and talks with me. And he says, and I remember this vividly. He says, you know, they said that you shot the BB gun, but you never actually hit the windows. that true? And I said, oh, no, I actually hit the window. I hit the window. And I was like bragging about it. I was like, no, man. Like the kids across the street knew that, knew that out of all our parents, my parents would come down hardest on me. And so they were trying to save my butt, but I was like, no, I hit the window, man. But the whole process of sitting down and talking to that police officer sparked an interest in me in law enforcement. And I, into my 20s,

I almost went into law enforcement. I dabbled with it here and there. But I actually was really strongly considering going to the police academy and my ultimate goal was to do U.S. Marshal Services. I really was strongly considering that into my, you know, 23, 24 years old. And so I know for me as a kid, something that happened then influenced the interests of my life. And I just wonder if it's a similar situation with what, you know, you went through. it may you know whenever I went to I think you're in Pennsylvania

aren't you? Yeah just outside of Philly Okay I went to I UP Indiana University in Pennsylvania for a while and that's when I was working on my PhD and when I was up there some of my cohorts always wanted me to talk about it about my experiences

but you know after a while it almost seems like it becomes a novelty and you know you don't want to talk about it Of course I talk about this stuff now because I teach classes part-time, but I don't know if that was also a way just to keep it alive in my head. I don't know, because that's usually not a point of conversation bringing that topic up.

You know what I'm saying? It's just something that you don't talk about. But I don't know. I don't know what you told me. That's, you know, I'm willing to listen to anything in that right there. Maybe something that I never even thought about what you said with him. Yeah, I mean, you never know. And I mean, I mean, let's just being honest. I'm just a podcaster and I drive truck full time. So, I mean, take what I say at a grain of salt. But I mean, I do hear a lot of people's stories. And I noticed that over the last couple of years, I've gotten good at taking things and observing and thinking things outside the box. And I try to do that. I've been trying to do that for, I'd say probably close to 10 years now, especially with the political realm and things like that. And I've taken those same concepts. of trying to not allow the mainstream media to brainwash me as far as what to think and to think

outside the box. And I took that practice to this show. And so when people are telling me, you know, what they think and how they view their story, but then they have questions at the end of it, sometimes I'm able to, you know, from a third person perspective, kind of view things a little differently. But it doesn't mean it's factual, you know. Right. Well, let me tell you.

I appreciate it. That's my disclaimer. Don't sue me. No, no, don't worry. I've just, I've always wondered, you know, and you never know. And, you know, I've prayed about it. I've talked to people that thought knew, and no one's ever been able to say anything. But, you know, I'm willing to listen.

I just, you know, it's, I don't know, man. Well, I'll tell you what, man, I do appreciate talking to you. And, you know, I have a feeling that this is probably the end of your story as far as paranormal stuff goes, because, you know, it seems. It seems like it was a very contained time in your life, but I do appreciate you sharing it. Oh, man, no problem. I'm glad to talk with you about it. Well, that's the show, everybody.

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