The Confessionals - 194: The Incident At Devils Den

Episode Date: December 31, 2019

On Episode 194: The Incident At Devils Den, we are bringing on Terry Lovelace, the author of “Incident At Devils Den.” Terry is a professional in every sense of the word. He’s served in the military, has a bachelor's degree in Psychology (cum laude), served as a felony prosecutor, and served as Assistant Attorney General for the U.S. Territory of American Samoa. Yet, with all these accolades, he is coming forward to share his incredible abduction story: Terry and a friend were taken by a craft that came for them while they were out camping. That is where most abduction stories may end, but Terry's story just begins at the incident at Devils Den.  BIO: Terry Lovelace served on active duty in the United States Air Force from 1973 to 1979. Trained as a medic and EMT, the bulk of his enlistment was spent as a first responder at the Emergency Room of Whiteman Air Force Base Hospital. After military service, he completed a bachelor’s degree in Psychology, cum laude, from Park University. He earned a Juris Doctor from Western Michigan and was admitted to the bar the same year. In addition to serving as a felony prosecutor, he was keenly interested in healthcare law. He’s a member of the American College of Healthcare Executives and was certified as a healthcare risk manager. While an Assistant Attorney General for the U.S. Territory of American Samoa, he served as General Counsel for LBJ Tropical Medical Center. He finished his legal career as State’s Attorney for Vermont’s Board of Medical Practice in 2012 and lives in Dallas with his wife of 45 years.Terry’s book “Incident At Devils Den” can be purchased here. BECOME A MEMBER AND GET ADDITIONAL SHOWS: https://www.theconfessionalspodcast.com/join Subscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaI Subscribe to the Newsletter: https://www.theconfessionalspodcast.com/the-newsletterWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail]: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcastTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelShow Intro INSTRUMENTAL: www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyub39AXxUwShow Intro FREE DOWNLOAD: https://bit.ly/2HxNcw3

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spoticard. com. This was all circulating around the base that a giant had been killed but no one

was supposed to talk about it I saw three long bony fingers reach up underneath the door curl up to grab

it and then disappear when he came over to me dude he slithered over to me and this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen and he starts running and firing at this giant

with a giant moves he's got a spear in one hand and he's running really fast and spears dan holds him up like this somebody else shoot him in the face shoot him in the face they basically decapitated I feel something pulling at my leg and I look over and there are two small gray and fatigue and they're literally, I'm getting pulled off the bed. I reached my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know I'm seeing a monster. Yep. Welcome to the show, everybody.

You're listening to The Confessionals. I am your host, Tony Merkel. Thank you for being here. If you've had an encounter or story you'd like to share with me on the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is The Confessionals at Protonmail.com. That's The Confessionals at Protonmail.com. or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com, hit the contact section, and you can reach us that way as well.

Either way works for us, just get a hold of us. And if you want more of the confessionals every week, on the website, we release an extra show every Thursday just for members. So if you want more of the confessionals, go to the confessionalspodcast.com and become a member today. Now, we have a great show coming up here for you guys today. We have the author of the book, Incident at Devil's Den by Terry Lovelace. Terry Lovelace was a person who went through a lifelong abduction scenario that really kicked off when he and a buddy of his went camping one night and they were abducted. Terry's story is one of the most phenomenal stories I've ever had the chance to sit and listen to in person. So without any further delay, let's bring on Terry right now and get into his incident at Devil's Den.

Okay, today we got a great guest coming on. We have Terry Lovelace. How are you, sir? I'm really well. I'm really well, Tony. Nice to be here. Yeah, it's great to have you. And it's really funny how we kind of got connected because I listened to a lot of podcasts during a day,

but there's so much material out there that you just don't get to listen to everything. And I had never heard of your story before a listener reached out to me and said that they heard you on another show and they said, this guy needs to be on your show. And the way I get emails like that and sometimes I forget to look at the person and stuff like that. But the way they worded the email, I was like, uh, this sounds like it should be a really good one. So, um, I looked at your stuff real briefly. I was like, yeah, this is a guy I definitely want to have on. I reached out to you. And I'm grateful you're coming on the show. So, uh, welcome to the confessionals. And, uh, you have a very unique and, uh, graphic, uh, experience. Uh, uh,

of abduction that kind of started when you're a child and you have some stories to share with us today that really will captivate the audience and really kind of show them what this stuff is all about. You've been through it and you have memories of it. But before we get into that, I would like to let people know that you do have a book with your story called Incident at Devil's Den. Where can they get that book? It's available on Amazon on my Facebook page. incident at Devil's Den and on my web page, which is Terry Lovelace.com. So Amazon has it on Kindle in print and also the audio version.

Fantastic. And I highly recommend people checking this out because after this interview, you're not going to have a choice. You're going to want to get this book. But Terry, if you could just kind of start us off with, I know you're a professional. And I say that as a very respectful term. And you have a lot of. lot of experience in the professional realm. You started out in the U.S. Air Force. Could you just let the audience know a little bit about your background before we get into the story? Oh, sure. Sure. I enlisted in the United States Air Force, 1973, right after I graduated from high school. And it really wasn't out of any patriotic sense. I'm embarrassed to say it was it was to get the GI

bill for a college education. And so I served honorably from 73 to 79. that out finished college and went to law school, Western Michigan, got a law degree, and made the law my profession. And in the law, to discuss a topic like this would be career suicide. You know, it might work, it might play now a little better. I know there's an attorney, I think, in Washington, who's kind of come out and has a practice. But, you know, as a government employee, I can say I would have been out of a job had I come out with my story. So this is a story I really intended to take to my grave. And that changed in 2012.

In 2012, I got out of bed and found out I couldn't bear weight on my right leg. And I went to the hospital emergency room, and he took an x-ray. And the x-ray text says, huh, did you, were you in an accident or something? And I count for this piece of metal in your leg? And I said, no, I've never injured that leg at all. You know, other than a skin knee as a kid. And she says, well, I'm going to take some more shots. So she took some more shots.

And then she says, you know, I'm going to call the radiologist down because you've got a really unusual knee. And I asked her, I said, hey, look, you know, can I see my x-rays? in the arm is my knee. And while we're waiting for the radiologist to come down, she pops them up on a view box and points to an area above my knee. The pictures are in the book, the pictures of the x-ray. And you can see what looks like a computer chip or an RFD chip with two wires running upward toward my body.

And then in a calf of my leg, there's a collection of little ticker. tech like things that make a floral pattern right in the middle of my cap muscle. You know, neither of these items I could feel by palpitation with my hand. You know, they weren't, I couldn't feel anything there. But I did have an unusual spot above my knee. As soon as I saw it on X-ray, it registered with me. I'd been a runner for 40 years. And at the two-mile mark in my run, with I.

out fail every single time I'd hit that two mile mark. There was a spot above my knee that would go completely numb and tingle. Wow. Kind of like Novocaine at the dentist. And it happened every time. And I could take a pen and delineate the edges of it. It was about the size of a half dollar. And within about 40 minutes, it would go away.

And it hit me when I saw the X-Rexam. that this computer chip thing or whatever it is in my leg lay directly underneath where that spot that goes numb. So I made the connection there. The radiologist comes into the room and says, well, you've obviously been in an accident. And I said, I've not been in an accident. He says, well, you know, you don't get, this thing doesn't get into your leg without there being a scar. Anytime you've reached the integrity of the skin to put an item of this size deep into your fascia, there's going to be a scar. So he insisted on examining my knee.

And then he got frustrated and he sent his resident up to get a handheld black light. And he said, you know, sometimes his scars fade and can migrate as we get older. He says it probably happened to you as a little kid, but he said, I guarantee there's a scar there's a scar there. And I said, Doc, I don't think so. And, you know, after 10 minutes, he was stunned. And he says, I can't find it. I can't account for it. And I said, doctor, how often is it that you find a foreign object underneath the skin like this without there being a corresponding scar?

And he thought for a minute, he said, never. I said, I've been a radiologist for 23 years. I've never seen an x-ray like this. And he said, and there's more. And he pointed to the x-ray of my lower leg, my calf muscle, that has the floral arrangement of little tick-tac-like things. And he says, these have on x-ray film the consistency of bone tissue. And then he said, but I think not. And I said, what do you mean?

What do you mean you think not? And he says, well, bone doesn't normally sprout in the middle of a muscle. and he said, and if for some odd reason it did, it wouldn't arrange itself in a floral pattern like this. This has symmetry to it. And he was amazed by that. I was amazed by that. And all I could think of was the camping trip I took in 1977. That kind of started off the whole thing then for you.

I wanted to ask you real quick before we get into that, though. You mentioned about how you kind of got started in all this. And I just wanted to ask you a question as far as, you know, people taking you serious and stuff and kind of you putting that aside. I see on the email that I have in front of me that you were a lecturer at Rice University presenting before the faculty and PhD candidates. How did they take this story? Very well. I was there with Leslie Kane, who broke the story in the New York Times about the Nimitz Carrier Group. And the UFO, you're familiar?

Yeah. So she's the one that wrote that story and broke it. So she gave a lecture on UFOs and I gave a lecture on alien abduction. And it was a collection of people from all the humanities department, including the College of Divinity. And they were very open, ask a lot of questions, and invited me back next year. I never felt so welcome. It was not what I was expecting. No, absolutely.

And that's why I wanted to ask you before I forgot, because I know we're about to get into the thick of things. I just wanted to ask you that because it's something that caught me off guard when I was reading the resume. I was like, wow, I wonder how that went over because, you know, typically these kind of topics and stuff, you know, people who are in this field like you and I, we were like, most people aren't going to, you know, want to hear what we have to say. But that's actually, I find that very encouraging for myself because, you know, I've been thinking about doing some lecturing myself.

But anyways, I would like for you from here on out to start sharing with us. You just share with us how you kind of started thinking about what happened with this abduction scenario. If you could just start from the beginning and share with us your life story with these abductions. I can. I can do that. You know, my first experience that I could, remember. And some memories have returned to me, but for most of my adult life, the memories I had was being, where I was, date back to 1963 when I was eight years old. And I was in my backyard in St. Louis City in an urban type environment with, you know, dogs and cats and women hanging up laundry and, you know, kids running around. And I'm in my backyard and I'm playing with this bow and arrow

set. And as I'm loading an arrow and then the notch of the bow, I'm looking down and I see this round shadow creep over my feet. And there was an interesting auditory change. All the noises that I heard sounded muffled. It sounded like I had my ears, like I had my hands pressed against my ears. It was an odd audio sensation. And then I looked up. And right over my head was this, and it was beautiful. It was a fly exhauster. And it was silver, metallic, maybe 20, 25 feet across, maybe wobbling a little bit in a breeze. And I was just dumbfounded. You know, at eight years old, I put together some model airplanes, and I had kind of an idea how mechanical things were put together.

So I'm looking at this thing, and I'm thinking, what is this? You know, is this a derisage? is this, it's not a hot air balloon, it's not a plane, it's not a helicopter. And I'm eliminating things one by one. And I'm looking at it. There's no, there's no doors for landing wheels to come down. There's not a rivet or a seam anywhere. It's just this polished, like highly polished aluminum or some kind of metal. And the edges turned upward.

And it impressed me. And it impressed me as being beautiful. kind of the way a new car would be impressive, you know, a new sports car, that kind of impressive. And I had this odd sensation, odd compulsion that if I lay down on a grass, I could get a better view of the thing. Now, in retrospect, that makes no sense, but that's what I did. And I lay down on the grass, and I'm looking up at it. and I still have that weird auditory sensation and then it just kind of list a little bit to starboard

to clear the power lines and it shot off and it shot off like accelerating from zero to 500 miles an hour and it's gone and the second that it's gone all the noises of the neighborhood return I could hear my mother's television playing, windows are open It's a nice day in May. And I can't believe what I just experienced.

I'm screaming, Mom! And my mother comes running out thinking I shot a neighbor in a head with an arrow or something. And she's like, what is wrong with you? I said, Mom, did you see it? Did you see it? It was so cool. And she's like, stop screaming. Stop hollering this minute.

And I said, Mom, it was a flying saucer. And she says, Terry, I don't know what you saw, but you did not. see a flying saucer. And she had me come into the kitchen table and sit down and she explained it. Terry, what you probably saw was a jet. You know what jets are. And I'm like, you know, I wasn't the kind of kid the liar make up stuff. You know, I was really a pretty straight kid. And she hands me a piece of paper and a pen and says, can you draw it? That's sure. I drew a circle and handed it back to her. That's what I saw. So then my father came home and had had the talk. you know and he's like what's all this business about flying saucers in the backyard

my dad it was one you know I saw one and he says well you can't go tell him people you saw a UFO or a flying saucer he says he'll think there's something wrong with you they'll think there's something wrong with us and that was kind of that early 60s mentality um you know children were kind of minimalized in the 60s. I paid attention to what my kids had to say, but back

in the day, that wasn't quite so. So I learned a lesson there that adults don't want to hear about flying saucers. Right. And about this time, I had some nightmares as well. But with those patients,

after a matter of weeks. And then when I was age 11, I was in my room a January night, and it was bitterly cold outside. And normal night in all respects, went to bed as usual. And I woke up sometime. I didn't look at a clock.

I had no idea. It was the middle of the night. And there's this brilliant, white, green, and yellow lights shining through my window. And it woke me up. And what was strange was, I had this sensation of calm. I wasn't wigged out or frightened.

I never thought about yelling for my parents. At first I thought, well, it must be a fire truck. I'll go take a look, and I hop out of bed, and I go, and I had thick draperies with Venetian blinds, old school Venetian blinds. in back of them. So I pulled back the curtain and I opened the Venetian blinds and right directly outside my window. I mean, I could have raised my window and stepped onto the top of it as a flying saucer. Same size as the one that I saw only this time I'm looking at the top of it. And all I can think of is, man, how cool is this? I always wanted to see the top side. And there was a round turret in the middle.

And the lights were flashing from that turret. I don't think it was turning, but the lights were just flashing at me. And I remember I took the curtain and I tucked it into the Venetian blinds so that I could get a better look at it, hands free. And I looked at it for a while. And then I got this interested, which is really out of character. It doesn't make sense. and I went back to bed I went back to sleep

in the morning I woke up and I thought boy that must have been a crazy dream and I look over at the window and I see the curtain is tucked in to the Venetian blind and I'm like that wasn't no dream that was for real so that was my second experience

that I remember and then really nothing happened. In 1975, I was in the Air Force, as I said, from 73 to 79. And in 1975, we were called to a run at a missile base, a launch facility. Whiteman Air Force Base at the time was a nuclear base, a SAC base. And they had a contingent of Minutemen 2 ICB and missiles spread out all over the countryside because it was remote area back in the day. And we got to call a missile technician

had fallen in one of the silos and needed assistance. So, and I'll make this one brief because I want to get onto the meat and potatoes of the thing. But my partner, I refer to as Toby or Tobias, Toby and I worked in night shift, 11 to 7. And we were the only ones in the squadron who liked the night shift, and we worked it by choice. Toby lived to watch the night sky. He was just wanted to be an astronomer. And I was taking some college classes in the evening, so it gave me an opportunity to come. And, you know, there weren't many officers around.

There wasn't much to do unless there was an ambulance run. I could do my homework or do my reading. So it kind of worked for us. and we became good friends, Toby and I. And we went to this launch control facility, which was out in the middle of wilderness, and there was a captain there. And there were about a dozen police cars,

security police, blue security police cars with their lights on. And captain says, pull your ambulance over there, stay off your radio and stay in the ambulance. I'm like, okay. So I did. And it was so cold, the windows were frosting over. Another cold night. And my friend Toby, who was a little bit impulsive, says, I'm going to go check it out.

And I'm like, man, no, you know, that's a captain out there ordering us not to go out. Toby says, no, I want to see what's going on, man. so he hops out of the out of the ambulance and about 60 seconds later my door opens and he is pulling me out of the ambulance by the shoulder he's saying man you ain't never see nothing like this you have got to see this i'm like to be you're nuts i grabbed my parka i step outside and i'm like trying to figure out what's going on and then i look up above the missile silo and there was was, for lack of a better word, a black diamond-shaped thing about the size of a full-size van, kind of similar to what they saw at Rundlesham. And it was hovering in mid-air, and it

was dead still. And it plays tricks with your mind because, you know, you want to look for ropes or some way that this thing could be suspended because it's just violating the laws of gravity, He's just sitting there. And the captain was awestruck. He looks at me with a big smile, and I look back at him. We're both looking at this thing. And it shot off again from zero to 500 miles an hour and it's gone. Wow.

And that was event number two. But, you know, that event, I got to say, I was, what, 20 years old at the time. And I'd had this experience with flying saucers. So in my mind's eye, and to my belief, anything from outer space is going to come in a saucer. You know, I considered myself an expert, you know. And this wasn't a saucer at all. And Toby and I agreed that it was either a prototype helicopter or something from the Soviets. The thought of it being anything extraterrestrial never crossed our minds. Never crossed our minds. So there are, these had a bunker that stored nuclear weapons for the B-52s that were there. And now this is

hearsay. I've never seen this. But I know met probably 11 or so security police officers who swore to me, it's true that this orange disc-shaped UFO would hover over the bunker with the nukes and shine a laser beam down into building and then take off. I never saw that, but you know, Robert Hastings wrote a book about nukes and UFOs about 10 years ago. And it's amazing how many UFO sightings there were over nuclear facilities and continues to this day. So that was 1975, 1977 rolls around. We're still doing our job working in the emergency room. And my buddy Toby walks up and says, hey, man, I got an idea.

Let's go camping. And in my camping, are you nuts, Toby? I mean, we're city kids. You grew up in Flint. I grew up in St. Louis City. I don't know. I've never been camping. I know you've never been camping.

And he says, yeah, but think about it, you know. I had a reputation for being a amateur photographer. I had a little dark room set up in my house, and I developed black and white prints. And I had a nice camera, but unfortunately, when you live on a nuclear base, there's not a lot you can photograph. So I really was kind of itching to get out in the wilderness and take some wildlife photos. So he says, well, you know, June is a couple months down the road. You know, we can cash in some leave time and take a long weekend. And he says, I got the perfect place to go.

And I like, what was that? He says, Devil's Den State Park in northwestern Arkansas. And I'm like, how did you find this place? And he says, I don't know. I was looking at a map. And I looked at all the stuff. And he says, it just looks. like it's got everything we want. So I wasn't convinced at first because there were a dozen state

parks 45 minutes from Whitman Air Force Base. But he made the claim that this place had some minestone outcroppings and had the wildlife and just kind of had everything we were looking for. And I made it clear we weren't planning on staying at a campground. You know, campgrounds, I mean, it's like staying in Walmart's parking lot. You got somebody right next to you. You know, kids, kids and other undesirables running around. So, yeah, guys with guitarists, that was then. And so we decided we were going to dodge the park rangers and drive as deeply into the forest as we could go

and seeking the highest piece of ground we could find. And that's what we did. And the road degraded from pavement to gravel to finally just ruts in the road. and we came to an area with a chain across it. And I thought, I said out loud, I said, ah, it's like we're done. And Tony says, no, Toby says, no, wait a minute. And he hops out of the car.

And what they'd done is they'd taken the chain and looped it around itself with a padlock. So it was just draped over the post held in place by a nail. He hops up, picks up the chain, drops it on the ground, goes chink. and we were just thrilled, you know. We were just happy. And we drove in and the road, it really wasn't anything my 66 Chevy was made for. It was terrain more suited to a land rover. But we drove and Toby navigated.

He had an unerring sense of direction where I have none. And we found a spot of high ground. and in the book I describe it as horseshoe shaped with some rocks at the end and it was an elevated plateau while on Google Earth we've discovered that that place is still there and on my Facebook page at Incident at Devil's Den I have the map coordinates and the Google Earth photos and what's crazy is they keep the top of that plateau groomed. Everywhere around it is thick forest, but they keep that cut for some reason. I mean, it should be overgrown with 40-year-old trees by now. So that's a curious thing. So we pulled up into this, I call it a meadow. And it was a

gorgeous place. It really was. There were like late-blooming wildflowers and just, it was just nice. And we set up camp on a tree line. And, you know, we did all the usual things you do when you go camping and burn some hot dogs. And, you know, we kind of, we were winging it, but we were doing pretty well. And we had two blow-up air mattresses and some blankets from the hospital. And a little tent that we'd bought at a big box store and set it up. So we were comfortable. And we were kicked back on those ear mattresses. And we're just talking and laughing and really, I remember saying to him, I remember saying, hey, man, I understand the allure of camping now. I see why people do this.

This is really pretty nice. You know, and he has to gloat and say, yeah, man, I told you. So, you know, this is fun. So we were talking about making plans to take our family in the next trip, take our wives, and Toby had two little kids. And about this time, I noticed that the forest sounds, the crickets and the tree frogs that were so loud just 30 minutes earlier, we could barely have a conversation. And now it was still. And I mean, it wasn't only quiet. It was still.

We'd had a breeze too, and the breeze was gone. And it just felt eerie to me. And it unnerved me. And I asked my friend, you know, like he would know, hey, you know, hey, Tov, is this normal? He's like, yeah, man, you know, we've been laughing and cutting up. He says, you know, the crickets, the tree frogs, they'll all be back. Just give it time. But I did.

I felt unnerved. And had I had my choice, I had to get in the car and left then, but I didn't. And we continued in some casual conversation, and Toby's got his head strained to his left. And he's looking at something. And I'm like, Toby, what are you looking at, man? And he asked me, he says, hey, man, were those lights there before? and I lean in back of him so I can see the horizon and there are three little stars, each one about as bright as the north star.

So they're pretty bright. And they form a perfect little triangle with the base at the bottom, and they're too far up off the horizon to have been road lights or like lights from a shopping center or something or a train. they were too high up in the air and we knew that there was no aircraft with that kind of light configuration besides it appeared to be standing still

and we're talking about this and we're kind of like got this back and forth about what this thing could be and then it moved and it rotated like it were on an axis and turned about three quarters of a turn and started to move up into the sky and this is the first time I felt this feeling of calm wash over me.

And all of the nervousness and dread that I had earlier, that was all gone. And I was almost disinterested, almost apathetic, but just a bit curious, but not frightened at all. and Toby was in the same kind of state of mind. And we watched this thing as it climbed into the sky. And there were just a billion stars out that night. And the sky was blue. It was a beautiful blue. And as this thing went up into the sky,

you could see it would block out the starlight in back of it. And the center of the triangle was jet black, where the surrounding area was blue. And it would move over fields of stars and they'd pop back on, popped back out after it passed. And it got bigger. And it became obvious that it was headed toward us. And we noticed that, well, for a while it kept the point of the triangle up into the sky. Now it starts to tumble.

and it does this tumbling thing where you would see the one light and then for a millisecond, three lights, and then it would go around. And I remember thinking that, and I don't know where this came from, but I remember thinking that this thing isn't just out of control, this thing is moving with purpose. That was my thought. And it did get bigger. and there was enough starlight around that we could see from our vantage point where we were on high ground, we could see the triangular-shaped shadow move across the forest as it headed in our direction. Of course, as it got closer, it got bigger. And it finally came to a stop directly over our heads.

Well, not directly over our heads, directly over the meadow. we were offset by the tree line and this thing just filled the sky. I mean, it was like somebody cut a quarter of the sky out, you know, it was just huge. And all we could see is the underneath of it. And I'd estimate the height of it to be at about 3,000 feet. So no noise. Still still very still outside. and we look at it for a minute, and there's absolutely no discussion between us.

And I could feel that sedated feeling wash over me, and I wanted to go to sleep. And Toby stood up first and said, shows over and kind of startled me, and he dragged his air mattress in to the tent, threw it in the tent, and then fell on top of it. And I followed suit and did the same. And I didn't bother to take off my boots or my shirt or anything. I just fell on my air mattress. And the last thing I remember thinking was that Toby was wrong because the crickets and the tree frogs did not come back. And I was out.

Some four hours passed we discovered later. And I'm in the tent and I'm confused. I'm just waking up and there were these flashing lights like I saw back when I was 11 you know different colored lights really intense as intense as an old school flash bulb going off

where you'd see a blue dot every time you blinked for an hour and it lit up the inside of the tent and when the lights weren't flashing the inside of the tent was dark black and I'm thinking And where am I? And oh yeah, we're camping and these lights.

And I'm thinking for a rational explanation and I'm thinking those must be the overhead flashing lights of a park ranger's truck. And then I heard this droning noise. And it was a noise like a piece of heavy machinery. Like if you stood next to a locomotive, it's more powerful than it is loud. You can feel it in your chest. And there was this droning noise. And I thought, is this park ranger running a generator in a bed of his truck? That doesn't make sense.

None of this makes any sense. So I sit up and I realize I'm in a lot of pain. I have joint aches everywhere. And I noticed my boots are untied. And that's when in a flash of light, I noticed my friend Toby is on his knees. And he's peering out at the meadow looking at something. And I'm like, Toby, what is it, man? Is it park rangers?

And he puts his finger across his lips, you know, on the universal side to be quiet. And says in a whisper, they're still out there. I'm like, who, Toby? Who's still out there? What are you talking about? And I went over to, I got on my knees, and I peeled back my flap on the right side of the tent. And I'm looking out at the meadow. And this thing, two things I know, it's this thing that had been 3,000 feet over our heads, four hours earlier, had now descended, and this thing is just 30 feet off the floor of the meadow.

And it eats up the entire meadow. I say in the book, and I stand by my assertion, it was a city block in length on each leg of the triangle. and the lights were intermittent flashing and it baffles me how this thing wasn't seen in five counties. I really don't understand that. And the next thing I saw

were these kids. And I said, Toby, how are these kids doing out here in the middle of the night? And I still don't have my wits about me, right? And Toby says, man, those ain't no little kids, Terry. Don't you remember?

They took us and they hurt us. And then boom, I knew. I remembered. And I had flashes of being taken. And all of that, all of that apathy and disinterest and sedated feeling, that was out the window. Now I was absolutely terrified and did not know what to do. I mean, we're watching these guys, and there are about 15 of them.

And when I look closely, I can see they're not human beings. They have disproportionately large heads. They have spindly limbs and disproportionate torso. And they walk with an odd gait. They walk like they had a sore feet or something. They walk like with a mild limp. And as I said, they were paired up in twos and threes, and then from underneath this giant triangle thing came a column of white light that turned on just like a light and descended. And it was a visible beam of white light.

It looked like a searchlight cutting through thick fog, only there was no fog. It was just this column of white light. And these little guys in pairs and in threes would wander into this light and then just dissolved and be gone. And we watched until we were pretty sure they were the last two. And as soon as they were dissolved into the light, it shut off and the droning noise stopped. and the lights on each leg of the triangle, each point, each apex of the triangle, the lights turned to all white instead of mixed colors. And then it took off.

And it didn't take off like a rocket. It took off like a hot air balloon. It just lifted off slowly and went straight up. And the higher it went, the faster it went. And we rode over on our backs. And we watched it until it was a single dot in the sky. And then until it was gone. And we are so scared.

I can't overstate how frightened we were. You know, all we had was this piece of canvas over our heads. But the thought of being exposed and running to the car scared me. Because I thought, you know, what if some of them are still out there, you know? So, Toby, after 30 minutes, Toby says, look, man, we got to, we got to go. We got to go. And he said, grab your car keys. I got a flashlight.

And I said, man, it's dark out here. Can you navigate me? He said, no problem. I got you covered. Let's go. And we bolted from the tent, ran to the car, got in. I slid over the bench seat, pulled up the lock. He hopped in.

And he said, are we good? And I know what he meant. We hit all the locks and we checked under the seats and the back seat, make sure we were alone and took off. And two things that were on my mind, and that was first of all to put as much distance between that park and ourselves as possible to get home. And the second thing, I was just concerned by this unbelievable thirst. I had never in my life been so thirsty. It was, and I asked Toby, I said, man, root around in the car, see if you can find a bottle of soda or something we can drink.

I'll drink anything as long as it's not poison. And there was nothing. And, you know, this was 1977, Lake of the Ozarks, that state park down there, the area around it is built up now, but back then it was all soybean fields and cornfields. so we're driving in its middle of the night I have no idea what time does both of our clocks stopped our watches stopped at 241

and we wore watches because we were EMTs they were part of the job you needed it for the job and I wish I'd saved that watch but anyway our watches both stopped at the same time and finally after about an hour drive and it's just about dawn, I see a gas station that's open, you know, a little mom and pop

kind of thing, mostly for locals, I'm sure. And we pulled in there and I got to the car and I ran into the bathroom. I found I had to get a key. I got a key. I got in. And there's this grungy faucet and I turned it on. I cut my hands and I'm just drinking and drinking and drink and all I can hold. And there's a mirror there. And I noticed that my face is sunburned. And I pull up my t-shirt in my abdomen, in my chest, you know, my arms, I'm burned like to a crisp.

I mean, I didn't blister anywhere, but I was burnt. And that may have been the cause of our dehydration because we were both terribly dehydrated. And got back into the car. I bought some orange soda. Toby bought a gallon of grape aid or something. And whatever they did to us, they gave him a double measure because I was hurting all over. And my eyes were incredibly photophobic.

The sunlight was just killing me. It was like I had sand in my eyes. And Toby has curled up in a fetal position, hugging his jug of grape aid. and I'm just headed back as fast as I can go without, you know, advertising I would have be pulled over, you know. So it's the strangest thing. You know, here we went down on this camping trip, and we were best of friends. You know, our wives were friends.

We socialized. We barbecued, you know, good friends, work together. And something changed. and I know this sounds odd, counterintuitive, but for some reason, I wanted nothing to do with the guy. And I could not reconcile that emotion. But that's the way I felt.

And I think he must have felt the same way because we drove all that while without any conversation. Our wives took us to the emergency room, of course, because we were just, we were train wrecks. I mean, we were really in bad shape. I found out later we were admitted as acutely ill. And the Air Force did something highly unusual. Immediately after my thorough examination and the doctor prodding me saying,

you know, what happened to you guys? Well, you know, I'm not about to tell this officer, this guy that, you know, well, we saw this UFO the size of Walmart because seriously, they'd put me in a psych ward. That would have happened. So I gave them an abbreviated version of the story. We stayed up, we went to bed, we woke up sick as dogs. And Toby must have said the same.

So I get wheeled back into the room after getting a chest x-ray. And there's the hospital commander, who I knew and was on good terms with, the base commander, who was just kind of a big authoritarian figure, and two guys in business suits. And the hospital commander walked over to me. The other three guys never said a word. Hospital commander walked over to me. And he had his serious face on. And he said, Sergeant Lovelace, you're to have no contact with Sergeant Tobias in any way, shape, or form.

That means no phone calls, no visits in person, no conversation. contact through a third party, no notes passed back and forth, no effort to contact him in any way, shape, or form. Do you understand me? And I said, yes, sir, although I didn't understand it, but that that was our order. They wanted us segregated. They did not want us together. And I wondered how they found our campsite and how they came on to us so quickly, you know. When we left the campsite, we left everything there. I mean, we left the tent. We left our air mattresses.

The only thing I took with my keys in my wallet. And Toby had a backpack with a camera in it and a bunch of other miscellaneous junk. And it also had his address in it at the airbase and phone number. So my guess is the park rangers, the next morning. discovered that that chain had been dropped and somebody must have entered that area. And then they probably discovered our campsite. So we were both hospitalized and we were both given separate rooms, private rooms, which is unusual. Normally enlisted men would be hospitalized on an open bay.

And it was the last night of my hospitalization and they kept the light. the overhead lights off for my comfort because I said that I had arc welders burn to my eyes. And they had two IVs still running, but I was feeling better, finally getting hydrated. And my night nurse came in with a subpane medicine in the form of a shot. And I thought, great, I could use that and help me sleep. And behind her came in two guys in. came in these two guys with business suits. And these guys were just, they were cops.

I mean, you could tell they were cops. They wore business suits, but the suit coats were open. And I could see, you know, shoulder holsters they were wearing with the butt of the gun sticking out. And they just had that walk of authority, you know. And the captain went down. There were two guys. They showed me their credentials. Well, first of all, he said to the.

nurse, if that's going to sedate Sergeant Lovelace in any way, it's going to have to wait. We've got to ask him a few questions, and they're flashing their credentials at her, and then he says, and shut the door on your way out. And I thought, you know, no need to be rude here, you know, but I think that was a calculated part of intimidation. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and they were very, very intimidating. And my first thought is, my God, and I said, sir, and my name.

in Trump. And this guy, this guy had this Louisiana accent, about 50 years old with a flat top haircut. And he says, son, would we be here if you weren't in Trump? And the captain cracks up. And he rose up my, rose up the head of my bed. So I'm sitting in an upright position. And they pull up a chair on either side of me. And they read me my rights. off of a he took out like some drugstore glasses and a little card read me my rights i didn't understand any of it you know i'm just scared to death i'm thinking you know i burned a forest down what did we do and he says well why why were you boys out there what were you doing and i said i was there to take some photographs of wildlife and he says and how much photograph

of wildlife did you take and i said well Actually, none, sir. I left my camera at home, which was true. In the rush to get on the road, I left my camera equipment at home. Toby had a camera, but I didn't have my nice camera. I wanted to try out. So he says, well, why would you guys abandon this setup camp? Just run away. The only thing I can think of was we were going to come back. So let me ask you, do you have a little marijuana plot out there somewhere?

Is that what this is all about? And that just showed me to the bone because, you know, 1977, being on active duty, that could have meant Leavenworth. Wow. And, you know, if by happenstance, somebody had a marijuana plot out there, you know, we could have been paid the consequence for it. So I said, no, sir, no, sir, no, sir. And he says, well, you don't have a big bag of marijuana in your house, do you, son? And I said, no, sir, I don't have. And he says, well, then you wouldn't mind if we looked in your car in your house.

Would you just to look around, just to see that you don't have anything, you're illegal? Would you mind if we do that? And, you know, I had the right to say no. But, you know, without the benefit of a legal education, I thought, well, it's going to make me look guilty. And I didn't even know what I was guilty up. So, you know, if they thought I had a bag of marijuana, let them look because I don't have any marijuana. So I signed a consent form for them for them to search my house and my car. and there's more that I won't go into.

I'll cut to the chase here. After this really unpleasant interrogation, the nurse comes back in and says, Doc really wants Sergeant Lovelace to have his medicine. And the major stands up and says, yeah, we're about done here. And the captain leaves. She gives me my shot. She leaves.

She shuts the door behind her. So it's just me and this major in the room. and the head of my bed is by the door and he places his hand on the door so I know what can come in and he bends down next to my head and he says son I know and you know you two knuckleheads stumbled onto something out there didn't you and I think you know what I mean and I didn't answer I didn't know how to answer him and he says well all I want to know is how many pictures you took of it and where's your film so he knew the guy knew wow I don't know how he knew but he knew and I said sir I didn't take a single picture Toby didn't take a single picture and it was true the thought of taking a picture never crossed our minds never crossed our minds and he bent down again and said I don't believe you and with that he was gone. So there was a second interrogation that I described in the book, and it took place

at OSI headquarters about six weeks later. They set a car for me with a security police been driving it, and he took me to OSI headquarters on base. And we went through this double-locked door thing where you have to buzz to get through. And we went down a long corridor that had interrogation rooms, and they were alphabetically identified like A, B, C, and D. I think I was in room D at the end of the hall. And he opened the door, and I walked in, and he said, someone will be right with you.

And he shut the door. And I'm looking around, and this room is just, I mean, just a tad larger than my large bathroom. And it's it's got a framed mirror on the side of the wall that I'm sure had to be some kind of two-way affair.

You know, I mean, who's going to be grooming themselves in an interrogation? Nobody. Yeah. And there's a desk, a gray military-issued desk with a gray padded chair. And I had a seat in the comfortable chair and I waited. And I waited to 9 o'clock, to 10 o'clock, to 11 o'clock. And at around noon,

these two guys walk in and it's the same two OSI agents that identified themselves in my hospital room. And they're talking about golf and they're all relaxed and they're having a conversation and they're completely ignoring me except to kick me out of the comfortable chair and made me take one of those fiberglass scoop chairs like they had in the 60s. And he sets down his briefcase and the major says, well, you know you're going to be hypnotized today. And I said, no, sir, I didn't know that. And he says, I said, sir, I don't understand. I just don't know why.

And he cut me off in mid-sentence. They reached into his briefcase and he pulled out a consent form. and he slammed it on the desk in front of me. And he said, is that not you a signature son? And I said, yes, sir, it is. And he says, well, that's all the why I need. And he says, and you don't have to do this. You can withdraw your consent if you weren't.

I'll tear this paper up right now. And would you see it to court martial? How about that? You know, and I felt boxed. I didn't know. I felt, you know, the best thing to do is to go along with whatever they want to do. I mean, I didn't have a lot of choice. Can I ask you a question real quick before we go any further?

Sure. So this consent form that he puts on the table and tells you that's all the why or answers he needs. Was that the consent form that you signed from telling them that they can go and search your property? I should have been more clear. He laid out six forms in front of me. And I signed all six. Oh, okay. So I should have been more clear.

One of them was a non-disclosure agreement, which I'm violating right now. And, you know, it was done under duress. I don't have any, any, you know, if they want to come after me, come after me, you know. And the other was a, it was captioned. Now, at the time, because of this flashburn and the major turned the lights on, the overhead lights on in the room. So I felt like I had sand in my eyes. I mean, I really couldn't read. And I was scared.

And I, you know, I signed what he put in front of me. So I signed the document was captioned, consent to hypnotic regression with chemical enhancement or something along those lines. And there was just the three of us in the room for a while. and then there came and knocked at the door and then walked this major and he's wearing oak leaves on his collar without a name tag which is very unusual

and he greets the two OSI agents with a handshake and you know then they talk about fishing a little bit or something and then he turns his attention to me and he holds at his hand and he says Sergeant Lovelace, it's so nice to finally meet you. I'm Major Brownfield. And I shook his hand,

and I said, nice to meet you, sir. And he pulls his chair up right next to mine. Well, he kicked the OSI agent out of the comfortable chair and took it for himself. And it was on rollers. And he rolled up right next to me, right into my personal space. And this guy, it was just odd. I mean, he carried himself more like a priest or a therapist than he did a military. officer. And he rolled up next to me. And he said, well, and I understand you from St. Louis, Missouri. And I said, yes, sir. He starts

rattling off some landmarks and we're talking. And he's smiling and he's nodding. And then I'm thinking, you know what? I'm just not that interesting. I don't know where this is going. And he must have sensed that I was growing uneasy because he shifted gears. and he says, Terry, do you trust me? And how do you answer that? You know, I just met the man.

I said, yes, sir, I trust you. And he said, that's good. That's very good. And he says, Terry, for purposes of our little exercise today, would you call me Brad? That is my name. And I said, yes, sir. And he says, uh-uh, don't you mean?

yes, Brad. And I said, yes, Brad. And he says, and Terry, for purposes of today's little exercise, may I call you, Terry? That is your name. And I said, sure, Brad, that's okay. And I kind of just creeped me out. I mean, he just creeped me out. And he said, you know, we're going to hypnotize you today.

And he said, I'm going to give you a little drug in your arm. And it's going to feel very nice. Here, it's very pleasant. He says, you look like a guy that probably enjoys a beer in a weekend, and he winks at me. And I'm offended. I'm like, you know, hey, not all enlisted people drink. You know, I mean, what, you know. Yeah.

So he rolls up my sleeve, and, yeah, he walked in with this little shaving kit that had a towel in it and inject a syringe already full, a tourniqu, had a band-aid, some cotton swabs. and he just rolls up my sleeve and he gave me the medication and there was a flush. I mean, I felt this, and it really was very pleasant. It felt, I felt sedated. And then he walked me through the progressive hypnosis where you went downstairs and, you know, taking the first, he had a voice was really smooth, like a radio announcer, you know, he's like, Take the first step, feeling nice, feeling relaxed, feeling calm. Take the second step.

Feeling safe. Feeling secure. Take that third step. Now going deeper. Ten times deeper. And I knew a little bit about hypnosis because I was taking psychology classes on base. And I knew that you couldn't hypnotize somebody to, you know. I mean, the drug worried me, but I knew I could resist the hypnosis at least.

And I made a valiant effort to do that. I really did. In my mind's eye, as he's walking me down the stairs, I'm walking up the stairs. And I tried to compartmentalize my brain, if you will. And I had a sectioned off part of my brain where I was playing beetle music, trying to recall all the lyrics and, you know, beetles, rolling stones, whatever I could think of to keep my mind occupied. I just didn't want to surrender my whole mind to this guy. And he got me down to the bottom of the stairs. And he says, okay, now we're into cellar and we're going to look around. And he says, but we need some light. He said, I need you to reach up with your right arm and pull the chain. Do you see the chain, Terry? And I'm in this relaxed position.

And I don't know what to do. And he says, reach up and pull the chain. And I didn't move. I wanted to see if my arm would move voluntarily. it did not. And he said, a little more forcefully, reach up and pull the chain. And I did, but I did it of my own volition. So I may have been in some kind of twilight zone, but I don't believe that I was hypnotized. I don't believe that at all. You know, and then after I turned on this imaginary light, I resumed this, what I assumed would be hypnotic posture, just a relaxed

posture in the chair. And I heard the captain, the OSI agent captain, whisper, is he under? And this guy says, Brad says, oh, yeah, a piece of cake. He was gone by the count of three. And I thought, yeah, that's what you think. Yeah. So, but I'm still in the twilight zone, kind of. And he asked me, he says, you and Tobias, when

camping, didn't you? I said, yeah, Brad, we did, yes. And he says, my, that must have been exciting. And I didn't answer him. And he said, and you saw some funny lights in the sky, didn't you, Terry? And I said, yes. And he said, but they weren't funny lights. Were they Terry? I said no And he says Who were they Terry? And I said They were the star people

And I was shocked I was shocked that came out of my mouth I mean I don't know where that came from And he had me Telled him about what I experienced And I could see images in my mind That I hadn't seen before

And I think that be it the drug, and I had several injections of the drug. It's a short-acting drug. I think it was called sodium amatol. And the OSI used it extensively in the 70s, by the way. And he had me recalling certain incidents. Now, I have a memory of some things inside the ship when we were taken, but it's not a clear, linear memory.

It's more like just flashes. of this and that. And I can give you a couple examples, because that's about all I have. We were, I recall being conscious that I was inside the craft. I was standing. And I'm like Calvin Parker from the Pascagoula event in Louisiana.

Yeah. You know, I was talking to him. He had the same experience. He was frozen. He could only move his eyes. and that's the way we were. I could only move my eyes.

And we're standing there when I got attention. And they had stripped us. And I had my boots and my clothing in my hands and my arms. And I'm looking around scanning, trying to take in as much as I can. Look into my left. I think I see Toby. Since Toby is next to me. And I noticed that the inside of this thing,

Now, the outside of it looked big, but the inside of it looked disproportionately big. Now, I don't know if they took us to some other craft or what, but this thing was like a ball stadium. I mean, it was just enormous. And it had multiple layers, multiple galleries and walkways. Everything was stainless steel or white. And there was just a brilliant light inside this thing. It was like they took all the light bulbs out and replaced them with 500-watt. I mean, it was that bright in there.

So most of the time I'm squinting. And I'm looking around and I heard a woman screaming. And that under me. But you know, I mean, there's different kinds of screams. I mean, you know, somebody can jump out, scare you and you can go, ah. But this was a pain scream. Somebody was hurting this woman. And the next thing I remembered was,

I heard Toby. I heard him. I heard his voice. He said, oh my God, oh my God, no, no, no. And then he screamed. And then I'm wondering when it's going to be my turn. And I'm looking around, and there are dozens of these little gray guys, which, by the way, I don't think are living sentient beings like you and I. I think there's some kind of combination of maybe artificial intelligence and bio-liferation.

some biological matter, maybe quantum computing or something, but I don't think they're, I don't think they're living entities like you and I. And I noticed a guy who seemed to be in charge. I mean, he just carried himself with an air of authority. And he was six foot tall, and his complexion was not gray. It was chalky pinkish color. His features were mostly humanoid, virtually no ears, just two tiny slits for nostrils and a slit for a mouth. And the black eyes that wrap around, but not the grotesquely large black eyes like you see in the motion pictures. These were more like a pair of raybans that wrap around.

And as I'm straining my eyes to the left to look at him, he turns to look at me and we locked eyes. And this has been a recurrent nightmare of mine for 40 years. The second we locked eyes, this guy was in my head. I mean, he was in my head. And he knew me, he knew my wife, he knew my secrets, he knew everything about me. And I'm staring back at him. And I feel like he's just downloading me, you know, he's just taking everything from me.

I mean, I still got my memories, but he, he won't. it's a copy for himself, I guess. And I'm looking at him, and I got no way to convey to him, hey, you know, don't hurt us, let us go. I got no way to communicate with him. And all I get back from these eyes is just raw intellect. Just this thing was smart. I don't know, 500 rungs up the evolutionary ladder. Who knows?

but you know it was like you know I pet my dog and my dog looks up at me with love and trust and I look at him and he knows that I'm the alpha and I pet him and in this exchange I was the dog he was definitely the alpha so that lasts just a brief moment but scared me to death then it was my turn on the table table and I'm moving, and I'm not sure how I'm moving, but I'm moving. My feet are together. I'm not walking.

And I went down a corridor, and I'm stiff as a board, and the gray guys placed me on this table. And my first thought was, wow, this is warm. And then I thought, no, they didn't warm it up for your comfort. It's warm because there's been human bodies on here. And I remember trying to scream. And I would fill my lungs with air and I would scream as loud as I could. And nothing would come out.

I could not hear a thing. And at the base at my feet, working on my lower back, actually at my lower back, not at my feet, there's this insectoid looking thing. and it looks like a praying mantis. It really does. It looks like a giant insect. And I have no idea how far off the floor the table was. So it's impossible to guess his height.

But I would guess seven feet. I mean, I would think it was bigger than I was. And I always picture this thing in a white lab coat. And I don't know why I do that. I think my mind must fill that in for some reason. and they had a very intense light over the table. And to this day, I dread going to the dentist because that light, I can't, you know, it still is a raw nerve. And I'm screaming and I can't hear myself and this bug thing turns its big head toward me,

big triangular shape of these huge, multi-lensed eyes like a fly. And I hear in my head with crystal clarity, I hear, why are you screaming? Stop screaming. You know we don't hurt you. You know we take you back. Now stop screaming. And he reached over and tapped me on top of the head. And I was out. And those are my memories from being aboard the ship. Actually, I have two more that I want to share. While we were standing there frozen, and I'm looking around trying to scan and take everything in, there were these six people, five men and a woman who appeared to be human like us. They had military haircuts.

They wore tan flight suits with orange insignias of some kind. And they would not look at us. We could not get their attention. but the one guy walks over to this panel or something on the wall and moves his hand in front of it and does something. And I can't see fully what he does, but he does something. So it's obviously he's a crew member. And they don't talk, never heard them say a word. And I notice, you know, they wear what sure looks like issue combat boots to me.

And that is an oddity. When I said that in the hypnosis session, Brad kind of wigged out, and one of the OSI agents blurted out an expletive. And he says, Terry, you will forget that. You'll not remember that. I'm taking that memory away from you. It's a burden to you. I'm going to take it.

It's in my hands now. It's off your shoulders. And I thought, like hell, I'm going to remember this. You know, this is what I live through. I own these memories. They're mine, and I'm keeping them for better or for worse. And I did. So the other thing that happened was to our left, there was a group of other human beings.

And this was a mixed bag of men, women, and children. And I'm going to guess there was maybe 20, maybe more. I don't know. I couldn't tell. But they were lined up in neat rows. And I see their eyes are just darting all over the place. They're frozen like us. And every one of them is crying.

Now, at the end of this thing, they kicked Toby and I out. And we landed near my car. And I thought, somebody screwed up. And then these gray guys came and they dragged us into our tent and put us back in the tent. explains why when I woke up my shoes were untied and I think we both slept a little bit I think we were still under some type of some type of I don't know some kind of hypnosis or mind control or something and yeah and that's when when when Toby

wakes up again he moves to the window and opens the flap I wake up with the lights not having a clear memory or what happened

and that's where I was for those four hours I was inside that thing wow so that's the story kind of full circle all right let's take a break right now and talk about a show we've been talking about

which is evil by CBS you can get Evil on CBS All Access, CBS.com, and on demand for the perfect binge fest. Evil is a mystery with clues in every episode leading up to the chilling season finale. And there are jump out of your seat scares with stories of miracles, demonic possession, hauntings, and more. Literally, everything we talk about on this show, the Confessionals, is in this show, Evil. And it's something that as the audience of the confessionals, you're definitely going to enjoy because it's right up your alley.

So what this shows about is a forensic psychologist who hires a priest in training, and together they investigate the Catholic Church's backlog of unexplained mysteries. And the more they discover, the more dangerous life gets for them. So go ahead and check it out on CBS All Access, CBS.com, or on demand, and binge the TV show, evil. Go do it right after this episode. I mean, there are so many things that we can get into. And I'm just kind of probably why I'm jumping all around because there were so many things I was thinking of as you were sharing the story that I'm sure will come to my mind as we talk here. Sure. Let me just start off with what you just talked about. They said that they were going to take that memory from you and they acted a little distraught.

Without putting words in your mouth, why do you think they were so concerned about taking a certain memory away from you? Because it was a memory of me seeing human beings aboard this obvious alien ship. And I think that meant that maybe they were our troops. Maybe these were guys already in the space force. It was whatever it was, it struck a nerve. and must be a secret. So do you think that Space Force is something that has been around much longer than Donald Trump announcing it? I think so.

Certainly I think so. You know, with the satellites that we have, and, you know, there's some funky websites you can go to. And I'll only name one. There's a site called the NRO for National Brose. reconnaissance organization. Now, organization is not a defined department under the organization of the Department of Defense. And if you go there, they've got a website and they're routinely recruiting physicists.

I think there's a lot that we don't know. You know, when this is 1977, when that OSI agent came in and tear. He knew what I saw. And there's no doubt in my mind. And that was the whole purpose of the hypnosis was to get to the question. Terry, did you take any pictures? Do you have any film? Do you have any?

They were very concerned that I had taken photographs of this thing. And like I said, had I had the camera with me, it wouldn't have made any difference because thought never crossed our minds. Yeah. And so I find that interesting, too, that you were in this quote unquote, hypnotic state. And it's interesting because you weren't totally hypnotized, but it sounds like you were to a certain extent. And luckily for you, you thought well enough to try to distract your mind during this process to be able to remain in control at least a little bit or else you telling

this story probably wouldn't have happened, right? Wouldn't have happened at all. But you know, I've often wondered, you know, would I've been better off just surrendering my mind and letting him take those memories or am I better off fighting to preserve them? And, you know, I think I'm, I think I'm better off having fought to preserve them. Because I think if you drive those things down into the subconscious mind, they're going to leak up. They're going to leak through. It may take years, but they're going to surface. They're going to bubble up and manifest in unhealthy ways. You know, alcoholism or madness. I mean, who knows? Yeah. I mean, a lot of times when people go through trauma. And even if they don't recognize the trauma, it does manifest in different ways. And I know

you know that just from your studies and stuff with psychology. Now, when you were in this craft and you said you tried screaming, but nothing came out. It was like the sound was dampened. Didn't you say earlier when you first saw this thing, it was like the entire woods got quiet and like the sound was just kind of like sucked out of the woods. Do you think there's a correlation there as far as like maybe technology goes as to how that's possible? I do. And this is going to sound way out there. I know. Try me. I've heard a lot. You know, I honestly believe that we were in a different reality, maybe just a millimeter away from the real world. But that's why nobody saw this thing. you know, I remember when it got quiet, I looked at the tree in back of the tent and it was lit up by the campfire.

And I'm thinking, you know, the leaves on this tree should move a little bit, you know. I mean, there's no wind, but they should move. And everything was dead still. Nothing moved. And it was an eerie feeling like I was looking at a hologram or some kind of, you know, something that was not reality. So I think they have the power to control our minds. No question about it. And that was in 1977.

I don't know what they're capable of today. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that's a possibility. I mean, transcending dimensions. We know that scientists, I forget where I heard this and it's driving me crazy, but there is a scientist, a guy who actually worked within their government and he publicly stated, that we do work in alternative dimensions. Parallel dimensions is what he said, parallel dimensions. And so if we do operate and work in parallel dimensions as a human race,

what you experienced very well could have been in another dimension that was parallel to ours. It looks like ours, but it's not. You know, I would believe that. It had an unreal feel to it. It is so realistic. It was just... Bizarre. Well, I mean, this whole story is bizarre, you know, like, I mean, it's not normal. I mean, most people go through life and they, I would say most people go through life and they probably

don't even see a UFO or at least acknowledge that it's a UFO that they're seeing, let alone have an interaction like you had. You mentioned about the grays and what you thought about them being more almost like a suit or some kind of robot that isn't really alive. And I've heard that before. And I've heard it from different people who come from different backgrounds of belief. So there are, like, I've heard it from people who, um, the Christian community that deals with the, you know, abduction stuff. Um, a lot of them believe that these are suits worn by demonic entities. So there's that suit idea. Now, you mentioned about the AI part of it. Do you think that these things are, if, if it's AI and it's some kind of like, uh, artificial intelligence being operated, somehow. Do you think that then the grays are then a direct result of humans creating them? Or like,

as in our government military? Or do you think that is something where it's extraterrestrial and the extraterrestrials created them to go in and do their bidding? I think they're extraterrestrials. And I would use the term worker bees. I think they're there to do the manual labor and to, you know, that's, that's the purpose they serve. Yeah. And I totally hear you. As far as humans go, though, I mean, you did see them there. And clearly, there were human beings in this reality, this dimension that were pursuing you in what you knew. What are your thoughts on the whole correlation between extraterrestrial visiting Earth and working alongside of human beings?

You know, I think there's three possible scenarios here. And one is that, you know, we're working shoulder to shoulder with ET towards some kind of shared agenda. That's one option. And then the second option would be that we're involved in a, I hate that we use the word quid pro quo, but that's the right word, in exchange. for that, you know, we'll give you technology to weaponize and you give us free reign to take X number of people from state and federal parks. And that's an agreement by treaty. Or the third possible scenario is that they're here. They do what they want and we have no

control over them. Well, what you just described, wasn't that, isn't that called the Eisenhower deal? Yeah. What do you think about that? Do you think that that's probably the most likely scenario? I do. I really think so. Yeah. I've heard about that, obviously, and I find it very interesting.

And I also find that what's very interesting is there's a lot of facts that parallel that incident that gives a credibility that over time pieces have come to the table. It's like, oh, well, that makes the Eisenhower deal look a lot more credible. Yeah, I've read some. Like he was an unscheduled stopover for a dental problem or something. Yeah. Yeah, there's more there than meets the eye. For sure. And so you mentioned about the OSI agents a lot here. One, for dummies like me, what does that mean OSI agent? I'm sorry.

The United States Air Force has what's known as the security police. and that's the policing division of the Air Force. I got you. And then under that wing of the Air Force security police, there is a special branch called the OSI. And OSI stands for Office of Special Investigations. OSI is to the Air Force, what NCIS is to the Navy, if that makes sense. Okay.

So these guys are pursuing you pretty heavily. one would maybe call them men in black agents. Now, how did they dress, though? I mean, were they just dressed as in like military apparel and stuff like that? Or were they kind of standing out as far as the way they dressed? They wore blue business suits, you know, with drab colored ties. They look like businessmen, except that they had shoulder holsters. They didn't, you know, bother to hide.

So in other words, MIB is men in blue, not men in black? In this case, yes. I gotcha. Okay. Well, I definitely wanted to ask you about that because the way you're describing them, it has all the calling cards of what people describe as the men in black. Also, when it comes to other things happening in this kind of realm when it comes to UFOs, aliens, cryptids, people talk about these agents coming on the scene and giving them a hard time,

questioning them hard. And a lot of times people describe them as one guy kind of clean cut, one more rough and stuff, but these guys sound like they were both pretty clean cut. Yeah, they were pretty clean cut. The guy that did all the talking, I saw his credentials. He was a major, and he wore this flat-top haircut that was unique and had this odd southern draw. Captain hardly said a word. He was a young guy probably early 30s. But yeah, these guys looked like cops. Sorry. Okay. So this event that happened, man, I go back and forth on this idea, but what are your thoughts on? Do you think that this was a random accidental event that you stumbled upon? Or do you think that you caused this event? And I say this because in the email you sent me, you sent me some pictures and stuff like a drawing and the x-rays and things like that. But one of the pictures is the location, the Google map's location and it's the satellite image and the location itself is in the shape of a triangle.

And I'm like, it looks like a landing pad for the thing that you just described. And I was like, you guys being there, did you think that maybe you guys being there triggered this thing? Or do you think this this thing was coming in to that spot for a reason and you happen to be there? But yeah, I guess we'll go with that first before I go any further. Well, you know, yeah, That's a valid question because, you know, I'd seen two flying saucers by the time I was 11. You know, most people spend a lifetime and never see one. And I saw them up close and personal, too. I mean, so I wonder if there's a connection there where they'd been watching me.

And, you know, this was Toby's idea to go down there. I mean, it was his suggestion. But I feel like we kept an appointment. I think we're there for a reason. I really do. Yeah. And that's the feeling that I get. Like, I just get this feeling that you weren't in control of this, this whole thing from the beginning. I just feel like this was a predestined appointment that you guys had. And these things showed up on time, on schedule for one reason and one reason only.

And that's you. That's what it seems like to me. That's the feeling I get when I hear you tell the story. And it sounds like you kind of come from the same thought of mine. Yeah, you know, the entities that I saw aboard this ship, the guy with the pinkish white complexion, that's the guy that scared me. You know, this big bug thing, yeah, it was frightening, but it wasn't, I didn't feel like it was going to kill me, you know? And then the other thing that's bothered my sleep for a long time is what happened to those other human beings? I mean, there were other people in that ship. We were segregated off to the side.

We weren't in line with them. But what happened to those people? I mean, they were in that ship when it went up. And, you know, I read David Polite's books about people going missing from state parks. And it makes me wonder, you know, is that where they fill their quota from? Yeah. And, you know, you said some things, and we talked about some things here that with that in mind, there being a quota and people going missing. It's like these things, whatever they are,

have been active for a long time. And it's like they operate with a green light. There is no hesitation. There is no maneuvering around a situation. It's with, they operate with intent, and they know what's going to happen before it happens. And it's very, procedure-like. Would you agree with that? I agree that every abduction that they've made has been absolutely perfect. They've never had one go afoul, you know. Nobody's ever come back and say, oh, they almost got me. And, you know, it's an oddity, too.

When you read David Polite's studies, in all these cases have so much commonality. Somebody goes missing and then bad weather rolls in. you know unexpected bad weather pops up and rolls in and you know that makes you wonder too did they do they time it to to be coincide with the storm or do they manipulate the weather i don't know but yeah yeah i mean it certainly is a possibility i would think i mean uh with this show we deal with conspiracy theories as well and stuff and i haven't even talked about this on the show believe it or not but uh there there is pretty well-documented things out there saying that today we have technology that we can manipulate weather as the human race goes. Darpa. And so if we can do that now, then these things, I'm sure,

could do it. And maybe they're the reason why we can do it. Yeah, that's possible. I mean, we're gaining a lot of technology. And we've gained a lot of technology over the last, let's just say 20 years since the turn of the century, there's been a technology boom. And I can't help but wonder what exactly triggered that because it seemed like it happened really fast and it seems like it's not slowing down. And I just wonder if, say the Eisenhower deal, if there was some kind of like, you know, bullet points almost like where it's like, okay, from this period of time for the next 40 years, you're able to do this, that and the other and we get this, that and the other. After the 40 years, this happens.

And I just feel like there was some turn in time where we were allowed to advance in technology so rapidly and fast. And I wonder if that has anything to do with these things. Yeah, I wonder too. I mean, you know, my son-in-law is an engineer, and I approached that subject with him. And he says, you know, you don't give human beings enough credit. I mean, you know, we study, we learn. We, you know, we're curious beings. All of this progress has been man-man.

made. But I'm not sure I believe them. Well, you know, to that idea, it's like that 10% rule. Like, it's a slow growth, a slow and painful growth for the first 10% of any organization or technology or whatever. But once you hit that 10% growth, it seems to skyrocket and boom really fast. And who knows, maybe, you know, 20 years ago or so, you know, we hit that boom and we, you know, took off. but yeah, I actually ran into a guy doing a delivery one day. I was actually delivering to a casket place. He owned the place.

It was his caskets. And he was an older man, probably in his 70s or 80s. I don't know. But he was an engineer for the U.S. government military back in the 60s. And one of the things he told me what, and he didn't know what I do and stuff. Like we just have a way of getting people to talk. Sure. And one of the things he told me, not knowing who I was or anything, he had said that back in

his 60s when he was an engineer working on top secret stuff, he said the technology we have today, he said we were working on we had back then. And it was just top secret. And now it's just finally starting to come out. And so it does make you wonder if the technology we have in our hands today, like we have supercomputers that fit in our pocket, which Tesla predict predicted by the way, which I'm not sure if there's a prediction or some kind of his way of being able to see into the future. We can go on to that some other time. But, uh, yeah, you know, it's fascinating. But, um, it makes you wonder, though, if that, if this is technology that, uh, was kind of like, you know, we had for a long time, it's just coming out or if this is something

that, you know, was kind of given to us. And, uh, I don't know, but I find it really interesting. You mentioned about this thing, uh, touching you on the head. And, uh, and, um, and you were like out. What did it say to you? I can't remember what you said. Did it say something like, you know we're not going to hurt you or something like that?

Yeah, you know what? I think I was screaming. I couldn't hear myself screaming, but I was screaming. And I think my screaming annoyed him because his exact words were, why are you screaming? You know we don't hurt you.

You know we take you back. Now stop screaming. And he hit me on the head with a green digit and I was out. I find that interesting because he lied you then because he did hurt you, they did hurt you, and Toby remembered them hurting you right away. And so it's like the way he said that, it makes it sound like he's just saying, you stupid child, you know how this goes. There's nothing to be worried about. Shut up.

But the fact of the matter is, there was plenty to worry about because you had a lot of pain afterwards. He did hurt you. And him touching you, did he touch you. Did he talk? touch you in the center of the forehead, by the way? Yes. Third eye. Have you thought about that? I'd never thought about that. It's, that's really interesting that he touched you there. You know, it might be nothing and stuff, but it also might be a lot, you know?

I think there's a lot of things that happen to us, that happened to us over time as a human race that we forget kind of where we came from. And that's coming from somebody who is a very outspoken Christian. And so there are certain things that I believe that, you know, people may find controversial, but I do believe that there is a big part of our human history that is forgotten. And the third eye is something that I look into whenever I get around to it because it's something that I find very fascinating. But speaking about eyes, you mentioned about your eyes feeling like sandpaper when you came

out of this like trance and everything. Oh, yeah. Do you think that's because they kept your eyes peeled open? Because that's what it sounded like. No, I think it's because of the light inside the place. The place was just so brightly lit. I mean, it was just, I can't overestimate that. I mean, you know, take your living room and put a 500-watt bulb in every lamp and turn it on, turn them all on.

And that's, you know, about half as much light as what was inside this thing. It was just insane. Okay. So that's a lot of light then, because the way you... you described it being sunburned and everything. I was thinking, I wonder if some, for, they're doing some, you know, whatever they're doing to them, if they had his eyes peeled open. And that's why it hurts so bad. So what are you, I know you don't, you don't remember all the details and stuff, but, well, let me ask you this. Toby, you said that you got, you, you guys didn't

want to talk to each other afterwards. You just, you didn't want to be around each other. Have you ever caught up with him about this stuff and talk to him or anything? Or was that? like a marker in your life where you guys really cut off a lot of conversation between each other. That's a really interesting story. And I'm glad you asked because I want to tell that story. Because there's been a new development since I published the book. I don't think this is in there. Toby went down a serious decline. And I think that was partly because when they sent us home from the hospital. They sent us home with what I talk about in the book is a bucket full of pills. I was supposed to take three pills, one with each meal, and they would send a nurse

around after supper, after dinner, to count my pills to make sure I'd taken all three. You know, she never actually made me swallow a pill in her presence, but she counted the pills to make sure I was taking them off. And she was a nurse without rank or her name tag, just plain white uniform, never took my blood pressure, never asked how I was feeling. And I'm taking these pills. And I'm just out of it. I'm loopy. I'm watching cartoons. I can't find my car keys. I'm just, and, you know, my wife says, makes the observation, you know, I think those pills are making you stupid. And I think she was right. So I quit taking them. and what I did was I would flush one down to toilet with each meal.

God, I wish I'd save just one of those capsules. Yeah, that would be really interesting to find out what they were. And it also would be really cool if you would have been able to save that, the watch that had 241, I'm assuming AM on it. Did you ever think about saving it? Or what happened to that? Did they just get lost? I was just, well, you know, that's a curious thing, too.

I couldn't wear a mechanical watch for a year. I could wear one for about three weeks and it would stop running. And it's an integral part of the job. I mean, you've got to have a watch that works, you know. And I ended up buying these $3 pocket watches and carrying them in my pocket watches as opposed to wearing them next to my skin. And those had lasted about 90 days and then stop working. But it was a year before I could wear a watch again.

So the watches would just stop working. Would just stop working? They were mechanical, mind you, but wind up kind. I find that interesting. I talked to a woman a while ago, but her interview aired, I would say, I think it was in beginning of December 2019. The show is called The Ben Salem Abduction, and Ben Salem is a town in Pennsylvania. and part of her story is that for, I think as she said about a year after this experience

where she believed she was abducted, she couldn't go into a store without setting the security off, those security buzzards. And every time she went in or out, these things would go off. And actually, you know what, now that I think about it, I don't think it was a consistent thing. It was very often, but not all the time. And I just, it's interesting because I really strongly believe that she said it was for about a year after this incident. And that's what you just said in both mechanical devices. Yeah. And she also said, oh, man, I really wish I could remember, but she had some kind of stomach issue.

Oh, what it was is that she had a friend or somebody had like some kind of like, some kind of detector. And they were running it over her body and it was going off right at her, her waist, like her stomach area. And I forget how the conversation went, but it led us believing that there was something implanted in her that could be activated. And it seems like it's been dormant recently. Do you think that these things that are in your leg, especially like the, well, both of them, but the one that you said looked like a computer trip, do you think that this is something that can be activated and will make you do so? certain things or anything?

You know, I have no idea. I mean, I would hope not. I mean, I would hope that it's information gathering. I don't know what makes me interesting. I'm not that interesting a guy. I mean, but yeah, they put that in my leg. And those, you know, those things below my leg, too, the things that form the flower pedal type arrangement.

Yeah. you know, nobody's been able to tell me what those are. Doctors are just baffled by that. Yeah, I mean, that is baffling. I mean, I'm looking at right now. It obviously sticks out. It's obviously something that doesn't, it's not like a bone spur. It didn't chip off you because it's symmetrical. For the most part, it looks like it is designed. You know, it's not just a piece of bone that chipped off or anything. This is something that was designed and put in you. And when you see these pictures, you can clearly see it. And I'll add it to the show notes and stuff so people can see it. but it's definitely very interesting.

And it just makes you wonder what these things are. I mean, is it some kind of tech that's in you for a purpose at a later date or what? I mean, who knows? I mean, maybe you're going to be a super soldier one day, Terry. I doubt that. I'll tell you know, that X-ray, discovering these things on an X-ray was really a watershed moment. Like I said, I had no intention of ever telling anyone about this. I mean, my kids knew that I had screaming nightmares once or twice a year.

But my wife and I never told our kids about this. And they were pretty shocked whenever the book came out. But, you know, you were talking about the lady that had the changes where she would set off the metal detectors. There's a couple changes I should mention because I think they're unusual. And that is that, you know, I don't like being out in the open. I'll walk an extra mile around something to avoid cutting across a piece of open terrain. I don't like to be out any open. And store mannequins, the naked store mannequins that they put in the window freak me out.

I tell a story about that in the book where I was Christmas shopping with my wife and there was this new store that was set up to sell women's clothing. And they had a bunch of these mannequins in the window and I turned and they were just right in my face and it just freaked me out. And we had to go home. So, wow. Yeah, it makes some permanent changes to your life. Yeah, and it makes you wonder because it seems random, you know, that seems very random. And it must be something in your subliminal memory that you're just not recalling maybe that, you know, happened during this abduction scenario. Let me ask you, when you went into the tent to go to sleep, were you, you said that you, as soon as you hit the mattress, you were out, before you went into the tent, though, were you tired and exhausted,

were noticeably? Yes, I wanted to go to sleep. I just wanted to go to sleep. I, you know, I, it was like I'd been been drugged. I mean, it's all I wanted to do was get in a tent and go to sleep. And I was asleep the minute my head hit the pillow. My head hit the pillow. I was gone. So were you tired like that before you saw the lights in the sky originally? Or was this something that kind of happened after this experience started?

No. Before we saw the lights in the sky, I was kind of keyed up. I was kind of on edge because of the silence had me because so freaked out. So I went from, you know, that high of being, you know, vigilant, hypervigilant, to this state of disinterest or borderline apathy that grew as the lights got closer to us. So it was their influence. There's no doubt in my mind. I mean, we would not, would not go to sleep with a thing the size of Walmart hanging

over our heads by 3,000 feet. Yeah. You know, that's not normal human behavior. Right. Yeah, I wouldn't imagine naturally just falling asleep dirt, something like that. I know when I was a kid, it's funny, when I was a kid, I would get in trouble. and my natural physical reaction was to go to sleep. And it's weird, but I almost feel like it was my way of escaping the situation of being in trouble.

And so it was just kind of like a joke almost where it's like, as soon as Tony, you know, is getting in trouble, he passes out. And it's not even like I would pretend to fall asleep. I would just pass out. I'd be like, I'm really tired. I'm going to bed. And I think it's my way of getting out of, you know, being in trouble. sublimatively, like my body's like, all right, just go to sleep, just fall asleep, it'll be all better.

Oh, that's great. What a great coping mechanism. Hey, man. To this day, I can fall asleep pretty much anywhere, but I wanted to ask you about the implants here. Is there ever any plans to have them removed or anything like that? Yeah, let me tell that story. As soon as I saw the x-ray, the first thing crossed my mind is I want this thing out of my body.

the sooner the better. And, you know, I wanted it out of my body with a chain of custody, where it went straight from the surgeon's hand to my hand, with no possibility of it being switched or swapped or anything like that. And I wanted it to be done, you know, with a local, maybe a spinal or something or other, so I could be fully conscious during the procedure. The problem that I had was this. I'd had a heart attack in 2005, and I've got an arrhythmia.

And the risk of surgery, the surgeons see these things as something curious. I think the surgeons really want to take them out because they're curious. But the cardiologist tell me the standard of care is, you know, that there are hundreds of veterans walking around with pieces of metal in their body, and we don't remove them because the risk of removing. removing them and surgically is greater than the benefit of removing. So all of the surgeons I talked to said, go get a cardiac clearance letter, and I'll take these things out for you.

I went to cardiologist after cardiologist, and as soon as they saw, you know, I had a triple bypass and had a harder with me up. And nope, nope. So I couldn't get a cardiac clearance letter, so I couldn't get the things taken out, which really bummed me out because it was the feeling that these things put their hands on me that was hard to live with. Yeah, I can imagine that. I talked to a married couple years ago when I first started the show out of New Orleans, and they recalled their experience of being abducted. And I believe, if I remember correctly, they had or she had an implant, one of them had an implant. One of them had an implant and they tried having it removed and the implant literally would move around in their body.

Yes. You know who I'm talking about? I do. Alta and Chad, right? I don't know their names, but I've been told that story before. I should mention this. In the back of my book, there's an email address. And if you've had an experience, write to me about it.

And I'll return your email. And, you know, I'm not a doctor or a therapist, but, you know, I'm full of empathy. So if you've had an experience and you want to share it, you know, write to me. Shoot me an email. And I've received over 1,200 emails to date. And I got an email from a guy whose dentist located something in his jaw. And he ended up trying to chase this thing. And this thing would dart underneath.

It would travel through tissue and hide. in the root of the tooth. And he could see it on x-ray. When he first discovered it on x-ray, it was on the outside of the gum. And then when he went and excised the spot where he knew it was, it wasn't there. And that's when they took another x-ray

and found that it had moved and was hiding. So I've heard of that, yeah. Yeah, and it makes you wonder if they are being controlled and there's something or someone, one or some entity on another end that is monitoring you consistently and able to manipulate this device or if this device is self-aware? You know, I'd be more inclined to think it's self-aware. I mean, you know, you mentioned the technological advancement we've had as a species in the

last 20 years, 25 years. You know, think of that if it's an old universe. You know, there could be civilizations out there that are. literally millions of years ahead of us. And if you think of where we would be as a human race, if we don't destroy ourselves a million years from now, you know, we could have some pretty hip things. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Who knows? I mean, I think there's a lot of things that we're on the cusp of that we just, as a public, won't see for a very long time, if ever. But, you know, when it comes to these implants that you have in your body, I'm almost willing to bet that the day that, you know, you pass away, these things will probably be gone. I don't think they're going to, I don't think these things are created to be allowed to be retrieved very easily. Well, I have a provision in my will that they be removed. On that note, then, do you think that that's something that is going to be possible? Do you think they'll be there after you die?

I have no idea. I really don't. My guess would be no. My guess would be they'll do whatever they have to do to make sure that this stuff doesn't fall into the hands of terrestrial scientists. Yeah. Because they don't want that. Yeah. And that's what I think too. I mean, this is obviously superior, far superior technology. And I don't think it, I just don't think it's very easy to retrieve something like this. There has to be provisions in place to prevent such things. Unless they wanted to.

to be retrieved. So I don't know. And I, we don't know anything, really. We don't even know why they're there, what they do. It's, it's just, is it just a marker, almost like a birth mark? You know, it's just like a marker so they know you've been already dealt with or whatever. I don't know. But it's, it's very interesting. Terry, kind of winding this thing down here. Now that you have, you know, you've written a book, you're speaking on different shows like mine and, you know, doing lectures and things like that. And even for the fact that your kids didn't know about this until the book came out, which is fascinating.

I can imagine their reactions. But what are your goals here as far as the reason why you're talking about this stuff? And what do you hope to accomplish? Especially considering the fact that you're in violation of a nondisclosure by doing this, there has to be a reason and a ultimate end game for you as far as why. you speak up? You know, it's real simple. I just want people to know what happened to me.

And I want people to know that there are such things as extraterrestrial beings. They exist, you know, and they're here. And, you know, the Uber driver I took from the airport the other day, we were talking about my book. He asked me what I did. And, you know, I told them. And he said, UFOs. Oh, I thought that was all comic book stuff. And I thought, no, I think there's something to it.

And I just think as a species we need to know. I mean, I don't think, I think we need to elevate our consciousness and open our minds and, you know, see reality for what it is. Absolutely. And I preach that message a lot. I think that a lot of people, including myself and including you, I think everybody lives underneath a certain amount of illusion, not delusion, but illusion. And if you're willing and able, when you find a thread to pull on that you think is going to go somewhere, you have to be willing to pull on that thread, though, of knowledge. And I think a lot of people are, are,

deep inside afraid to pull those threads. I think a lot of times people are, no, I will, I'm not afraid enough, definitely. I'm looking, I'm seeking for truth and all that stuff. But when it comes down to things that are preconceived notions, preconceived ideas and beliefs, if you feel a threat of information could blow up what you are already in belief of, I think a lot of people are afraid to pull on that thread. And I, and I, that's why with this show, show and people hear me all the time talk about this stuff. I am a big, big, big proponent of just thinking outside the box, pursuing knowledge, and wherever it leads you is where you want to be. Yes. And it's uncomfortable. It doesn't feel good going through that process. It doesn't feel good

when you find something that doesn't make sense to you instead of running away from it or ignoring it or passing over it, forgetting about it, to actually press into it and pursue that, that piece of knowledge that doesn't feel good. That's uncomfortable, but that's how we advance. And that's how we progress through life. And I think that's what you're doing. That's what I'm trying to do with this show. And I, Terry, I really want to thank you for sharing your story. I greatly appreciate it. And I know I said I was winding it down, but I want to ask you one more question. Sure, sure. Because I just remembered.

In the email you sent me with some of these pictures, there is a picture of a house with a helicopter and what looks like a UFO. What's the story behind this picture? That was after I wrote the book. That was taken about six months after I wrote the book. I wrote the book and put it on Amazon March 10th of 2018. By May of that year, May of 2018, I started hearing helicopters over my house. Now, I know that sounds cliche, but, you know, it was true. And I ran outside, and I started taking photographs of them.

What I was looking for is I, being a lawyer by trade, I wanted to look up the law under the FAA to see, you know, what kind of markings need to be on a helicopter. And the law clearly states that it must display the letter in, like in Nancy, and then some identifiers in the form of numerals. And these were clearly unmarked. So I called the FAA and I said, you know, I've got unmarked helicopters around my house. And they said, well, so what? That means they're military.

Well, there's your answer. There's our answer. And I photographed 167 helicopters circling my house. house. Unreal. Over the span of nine months. I got a PowerPoint presentation put together that I'm going to take with me. And about in a handful of them, you can see a disc in the sky in back of them or a ball or a cigar-shaped thing.

You can see something. Now, I don't know who's chasing who, but, you know, it really became kind of a nuisance. I mean, at first I thought, you know, it's got to be the traffic copter, you know, routed over my house. But no, this was not the traffic copter. They were Robertson R-22, Robinson R-44s, Airbus 350s, and then a slew of different painted green military helicopters, all varieties. That's incredible. And the sheer of, amount in that short period of time is not natural, especially if you didn't notice it beforehand ever. And I can tell you in the audience, the picture that I have right here, there is clearly

something I would say following the helicopter, because I don't think a helicopter would even the pilot, you're not going to keep up with this out of the UFO, but there's clearly a disc-shaped object in this picture. And, you know, I'll just put this out there. And I've never even talked about this publicly before because I really don't, I really haven't given it much credibility in my own mind. But I have lived in my house for about two years before I started this podcast three years ago. When I started this podcast about six, seven, eight months into it, I started noticing helicopters flying over my house. And they were military helicopters because I remember when I first started hearing it, they were so loud that I went

outside to find out what was going on because I thought, you know, there's like a medic being landed or something like a medevac. And these were very low flying helicopters in pairs, like sometimes two, three, four of them. And I don't have a military base around where I live. The closest one is probably about an hour from here. And they were so low. Now, I do have an airport, a local airport. And this is a very small airport where just local rich people fly their private jets out of. So I don't know what to make of that. I don't want to say that they are coming for me or something because of my show.

But it just makes you kind of look at things sideways sometimes and question what's going on. And I think that kind of goes back to what I was just saying, where it's like you have to be willing to press into things that make you feel uncomfortable. It's easier just to ignore something like that. I'm like, oh, it's not about me. Just go on my merry way. But I think it's important to acknowledge things and just pursue truth and knowledge. And I think that's what you're doing, man. I really commend you for it.

And I think this is a fascinating story that the world needs to hear. Thank you, Tony. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to tell it. Thank you. Well, that's the show, everybody. I really hope you enjoyed it. And if you did enjoy it, please share the show with your friends, Facebook, Instagram,

Twitter, Snapchat, TikTok, email, water coolers, male pigeons. I don't care how you share the show. Just share the show if you enjoyed it. And just to let you know, today is the last day. December 31st, 2019 is the last day that we had the promo code on the website for the store, Holiday 10. If you use the promo code on any apparel on the store holiday 10, you will get 10% off on any purchase that you make on any apparel in the store on the website, the confessionalspodcast.com. I don't know if I just... just confused anybody because it sounded like I just threw out a lot of information, but let's just simplify it. The professionals podcast.com. Go to the store. If you want to purchase any apparel,

use the promo code on checkout, Holiday 10, and you'll get 10% off your purchase. That was pretty simple. I should have said it like that from the beginning. Anyways, until next week, friends, stay safe, take care, and remember the truth will set you free, but first they'll piss you off. Bye. Why am I yelling? Welcome to the show. Everybody, you're listening to The Confessionals. I am your host, Tony Merkel. Thank you for being here. If you've had an encounter or story you'd like to share with me on the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is The Confessionals at Podcast. The Confessionals. Oh, my goodness. I'm still not used to saying that. The Confessionals at Protonmail.com. No.

Oh, let's redo this. Donates of all the world to bring to here his better products. Proualos all all before that us picken.