The Confessionals - 20: Bigfoot In Pennsylvania

Episode Date: June 3, 2017

Episode 20 features two guests! In the first segment, author Timothy Renner discusses his new book, “Bigfoot in Pennsylvania.” In the second segment, Mike- a previous guest on Sasquatch Chronicles- shares a group Bigfoot encounter from his vantage point, and how this encounter has affected him. Website: www.theconfessionalspodcast.com Email: [e-mail] Facebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcast Twitter: @TConfessionals Tony's Twitter: @tony_merkel Tony's Instagram: tony_merkel Tony's Facebook: www.facebook.com/tbmerkel Outro: DJ Eric ILL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XeI9H2__gM Sasquatch Chronicles EP 248 "Becarful What You Wish For": https://sasquatchchronicles.com/sc-ep248-be-careful-what-you-wish-for/ Timothy Renner's NEW Book Bigfoot In Pennsylvania: https://www.amazon.com/Bigfoot-Pennsylvania-Wild-Men-Gorillas-Monsters/dp/154551397X?

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For the rest of the right. You guys hear that? Welcome to the show, everybody. I am your host, Tony Merkel, and I am really glad that you're here. And I'm really glad to be here. I got a great show plan for you tonight. We're going to be talking about Bigfoot. But more importantly, we're going to be talking about Bigfoot in Pennsylvania.

That's right, my home state Pennsylvania. We're going to have two guests coming on. The first guest is going to be Timothy Renner. Timothy Renner has recently wrote a book, Bigfoot, in Pennsylvania, and I have him coming on to talk about his book. But before we get into that interview, I just want to remind you, if you want to get a hold of me and share a story with me, go ahead and email me at the confessionalspodcast at gmail.com. Or you can go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com, hit the connection section, and you can reach me that way as well. But without any further delay, let's get to Timothy Renner. We work hard at being healthier.

And what we really need is better quality sleep. The new Sleep Number 360 Smart Bed intelligently senses your movements and automatically adjust your comfort and support on both sides. This is not a bed. It's proven quality sleep. It's the biggest sale of the year where all beds are on sale. Say 50% on the new Sleep Number 360 limited edition smart bed, plus special financing only for a limited time.

To find your local Sleep Number store, go to Sleep Number.com. Special financing subject to credit approval. Minimum monthly payments required. See store for Degians. All righty. Tonight we have a guest coming on to talk about a book that he just released. Timothy Renner just came out with the book called Bigfoot in Pennsylvania. And it's not the first book he's written. He's actually written a book before that called Beyond the Seventh Gate. But Bigfoot in Pennsylvania really caught my eye because obviously I'm in Pennsylvania. And so is Timothy. So Timothy, how are you, man? Doing good. Awesome. Awesome. See, we talked a little bit about the Beyond the Seventh Gate book, and we've been kind of flirting with the idea of doing an interview like this for a while now. I'm glad we're actually doing it.

Yeah, thanks for having me on, man. Absolutely. So talk to us about the Bigfoot in Pennsylvania book. Like, how did that come about? I mean, it's very unique on how you constructed the book. So, like, what went into the whole research behind that? Well, it started with my first book. A lot of the accounts I was finding, I was trying to be as complete as possible as far as cryptid sightings. And the first book was just three counties in Pennsylvania. It was York Adams and Lancaster County. And in order to be complete, you know, I did a bunch of newspaper searches and I came up with quite a few reports for those counties and for others as well when I was searching. So I thought, well, these are really interesting. They read like citing.

They read a lot like modern citing reports. A lot of the Bigfoot behavior is very similar. If you follow witness reports nowadays, you'll find a lot of similar things in these old reports. So I just thought it would be interesting to collect a whole series of these together. I originally started to do the entire country. I was just going to do a book of the whole country, but I started in Pennsylvania because that's where I live. And I found very quickly that I would have enough to do a whole book on Pennsylvania. So I just settled down and I did Pennsylvania first.

I'm going to move on and do some others. But maybe the whole country, piece by piece, I won't be able to do entire states for some. So this is the first of what will probably be many. That's really cool, man. Now, as an author, is this something that you always wanted to. wanted to pursue, you know, writing books and stuff like that? Or is that something that you kind of just stumbled into over time? My first book was really, it was done to correct the article on Toad Road and the Seven

Gates of Hell that appeared in the Weird Pennsylvania books. Basically, when those came out, I kind of begged the editors to let me back-check that story because I knew there's a lot of nonsense on the internet. And they asked me to take pictures for it. And when I agreed and I said, oh, please let me, please let me fact check that story. Because there's, you know, there's really some goofy stuff out there. And they didn't. They just printed some wacky story that has no basis in history.

And it always kind of ate at me. And one day I finally just sat down. So I'm going to write, I'm going to write the story, the real story and get into the history what happened there. So that turned into my first book. And then I found I really enjoyed the process. So I'm going to keep going here. I guess I'm an author now. Yeah, it's funny how that works.

I know a lot of people just kind of like stumble into something like that. They either have a wealth of information about something and they just write it down or something like that. It's always interesting to hear how people get into writing, though. I enjoy research. That's kind of, I mean, I just really, really enjoyed like digging through old books and old newspapers and just finding, you know, this old information. that's something I guess I give from my wife's family. They're genealogists and they're very, very thorough with their research. They kind of taught me to keep digging and try to find the earliest root of everything.

And I just really enjoy it. So that was sort of a natural extension to start putting things together in a book. Yeah, and you say you like research, and a lot of people say that, oh, I love researching, but it takes a lot of time to do the kind of researching you were doing, isn't it? Oh yeah, yeah. You have to love it. I mean, I spend, you know, I don't know, most nights till the wee hours of the morning with, you know, newspaper searches. And then you have to go, I do a lot of searches at historical societies and various libraries and stuff. And you just, you have to like what you're doing or it's going to be miserable. Yeah, it's not like you sat down from the computer and Googled Pennsylvania Bigfoot and just wrote about everything you saw. Like it actually takes time to, dig into these things and find out, you know, what is what before you even start thinking about writing. Yeah, and the biggest thing is to sort of, you have to wade through a lot of wild man reports. We should just take a side step here and say they weren't called Bigfoot before, you know, 1950 or so.

So to find these old reports, you've got to figure out what they were called. And in the 1800s and before, they usually just called them Wild Man because they didn't have a concept of something that was, walked on two legs and was covered in hair and kind of looked like a man. So they just called him wild men. They said, well, it looks like a hairy wild man. About the time of the discovery of the mountain gorilla, I say discovery. Of course, you know, the Africans knew about it. But for the Western people, when the mountain gorilla came to the attention of Europeans and Americans,

right around 1890, 1900, they start calling them guerrillas, at least in Pennsylvania. you. So, but before that, you get a lot of these wild man articles that are, that are definitely humans. So, uh, I had to probably wade through 20 reports that are definitely about a human. Either, they're either, you know, talk to somebody in the, in, in the midst of the report, or sometimes it's, uh, they're, they're taken to a county home or something like this. And, and you obviously, you know, well, this is a human. This is actually a wild human they're talking about or a homeless person. So you got to wait through it. a lot of those to get to the reports that are probably or possibly Bigfoot's.

Yeah, I can imagine it's a tedious process. Now, with your book, what were some of your favorite stories that you were able to put in there? Like, what kind of caught your eye as far as stories that stood out to you? Well, I know there's a, there's a large contingent of the bigfoot community that is very firm about it being a peaceful, giant of the woods. And I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but I kind of like the, the aggressive attack stories. I just find them really interesting. And I think a lot of the stories in the book kind of point to it not being such a peaceful creature, at least not all the time. Now, most every sighting, I mean, the majority of every sighting, I think modern and

old is just going to be, oh, I saw something, you know, something walked across the road in front of me, or, you know, I was in the woods and I saw something. But it seems like when you get, the longer the encounters go on, the weirder and more potential for violence there is. So my absolute favorite story is the Bolig Farm incident where it's sort of an ongoing thing from 1920. And that's amidst a, there was sort of a real gorilla flap that was happening in the winter of 1920. extends it really into the fall, the late summer and fall of 1921, that really it goes all across Pennsylvania. If you want, I'll read the article that I'm talking about.

Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead. So this is from 1920, December 15th. Giant gorilla creates fear in Snyder County. Animal believed to have escaped from Carnival breaks boy's arm during attack had previously been wounded. visits Bolig farm quite often. The appearance of a man-ape or gorilla in the mountains of Snyder County has caused great excitement among the residents of that section

where the animal was seen. The Big Ape first seen three weeks ago by Samuel Bolig of Miser, a small town in Snyder County. The animal was supposed to be one that escaped some time ago from a carnival and which has since been living in the mountains of that section of the state. Samuel and Margaret Bollig, the children of Charles Bollig, were gathering Kinlingwood one night in November with the light of a search lamp,

when a huge animal about seven feet tall and that stood up like a man was discovered by the children within the circle of light. It looked to them like a huge monkey, and when discovered, dropped on all fours and ambled away, soon disappearing in the darkness. A week later, the same animal was discovered in a cornfield on the bollic farm, which is at the foot of the mountain. Samuel procured a 32 caliber rifle and took a shot at the huge man creature, evidently wounding it as it fell at the shot rolling over several times on the ground. The boy and the father trailed the wounded ape some distance by the blood, but were unable to overtake it, and at length gave up pursuit. On Monday night of the present week, the strange creature made its third appearance at the Bollig farm. Charles Bollig was engaged in chopping wood by light of lantern when the ape approached near enough to be seen. The son ran to the house and procured the rifle, but before he could shoot the gorilla, it viciously attacked him, knocking him down and breaking his arm, and was finally driven away by the father.

The lad lay on the ground in an unconscious condition. He was taken to the house and soon after recovered his senses, and it was found that he was not seriously injured. He suffered much from shock, but is expected to be fully recovered in a short time. A large number of men armed with rifles started out to hunt the animal. About 100 Louistown hunters are scouring the narrows and surrounding country toward the Snyder County line in the hope of getting a shot at the huge creature and killing it, as its presence has caused the greatest consternation in that section,

the gorilla being a very dangerous animal and account of its great size, strength, and savage nature. That's from the Altoona Tribune, December 15th, 1920. Wow. So... Yeah, it's a pretty intense encounter. You know, again, it starts with these repeated encounters, and then the boy takes a shot at it,

and it obviously followed him home. Yeah, I mean, it definitely sounded like it was coming for revenge. Yeah, and I think these... creatures. I mean, these from, again, from the modern accounts where people have, you know, taking shots at them around their house, they seem to have a cultural revenge. This sounds like a modern story, you know, that if you follow, well, Sushka's Chronicles and some of the, the other podcast and so forth where you get witness stories, you know. Yeah, that's just incredible. I mean, you know, exactly what you said. I mean, you hear of people, you know, shooting at these

things or having an altercation with them only to have these things follow them or chase them or find them a day later. And it's fascinating to find out that that actually is a characteristic that was there. When was this written? This particular story was from 1920. Wow. But there are, I mean, there are reports in the book of like window peeking of the creatures attacking dogs. And again, these are just things we see again and again in modern reports. There's even old roadside crossings, you know, just at the dawn of the automobile where people just see the things, you know, cross the road. Yeah. Now, you and I had talked in private, you know, a couple of times now. And I don't know if we've ever talked about this, but why does the Bigfoot cross the road? I mean, they're so smart.

Like, we all think that they're, they have to be intelligent. I have some kind of intelligence. Yet they do the stupidest thing sometimes, like crossing in front of a car when they could just wait for it to drive by. Well, I've heard people, you know, kind of suggest that they're trying to cause an accident. Like squirrels. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I mean, this is assuming these are natural creatures. I don't want to jump too far into woo because I really don't have an answer as to what these things are.

But I don't know that we can necessarily assign sort of natural animal behavior to them, if that makes sense. Yeah, because, I mean, there's just, there's a certain level of intelligence. And, you know, I've heard people suggest that these things get bored and they do things like that just for pure entertainment. I don't know. It's just, I always found that fascinating, them crossing the road and, you know, not just just waiting.

If they want to be so seclusive, yet they cross their front of a car. Yeah, I mean, they avoid cameras like the plague. And they can probably, you know, we don't know for sure, but we can make a guess that they see better at night than us. They probably hear, you know, at least as well as us, they know a car is coming. And they probably know on some level what automobiles are. You know, at least these things that move through the night with big bright light. on them. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this week, this week's show is a Bigfoot show, and it actually were interviewing a guy that had a Bigfoot sighting in Northeast PA. He actually, his buddy was on

Sasquatch Chronicles and shared their story, and he came forward to me and said that he would like to share their story again through his vantage point, you know, through what he saw, because it differed a little bit. And it was very fascinating to talk to him and stuff. And, you know, kind of getting out of here and stuff before we leave, you know, what do you think, not just Pennsylvania, but in the grand scale of things, do you think it's even possible to prove that these things are out there to the general public? I don't think so. And I'm just going on gut feeling here. I feel like whatever these things are, they've always lived beside us in the woods.

They've always lived just outside of our light, whether they're modern LED lights or an old campfire, you know, back in the day. Their own cave paintings, they're told of in the earliest stories there are. And we've yet to catch one. I think short of a body, you're not going to prove it to most people. And I could be wrong. I'm the first one to say, I'm not an expert.

I go by gut feeling on this stuff and I go by witness reports. And if someone proves me wrong one day, I will say, okay, look, you got a body. Fantastic. Look at that. Now we know. But my gut feeling is that we're never going to get a body and therefore we're never going to be able to prove it to anybody. You know, the hard skeptic that is.

Yeah. And I generally agree. I mean, if you're going out there hunting for Bigfoot to prove its existence, chances are you're going to get bored really fast. I always tell people, if you're into the whole looking for Bigfoot thing, you really got to enjoy being out in the outdoors to begin with. I mean, if you're going out there fresh off of watching finding Bigfoot thinking you're going to go out there and have so much fun, it's not glamorous and it's not like, you know, just walking down a path and up, I think I see something. can get really boring really quick. And there's a lot of days you go, you're out there and you don't even hear a normal animal, let alone a bigfoot sound. And so it's just like you really have to, you know, lower your expectations, I think, when it comes to this topic. True. And, you know, as, as Wes always says to people, be careful what you wish for as well. There's a lot of not pretty encounters out there. I know, well, a fellow came up to me, At an appearance recently, I was at the Harrisburg Comic-Con.

And he saw my book sitting on the table, the new book. And he said, oh, you're writing about those things, are you? And I kind of was like, well, what do you mean? And then he's like, yeah, I've seen him. And he's standing there, and he told me the cat. And he's shaking. He is shaking while he's telling me this. He says he has nightmares about it to this day.

And he's not the only person that has come directly to me and told me this. and he said, you know, he said, I don't want to buy your book because I don't want to think about it, you know, but he told me his encounter and, you know, kind of walked away, but he was visibly shaken. So again, to me, this points to it being something other than a natural animal. And again, I don't have a lot of answers, but bears don't scare people that much when they run into bears in the woods. I've seen mountain lions, you know, I was aware of it, but I was. and shaking in my pants, you know, when I saw it. But for some reason, not everyone, but a lot of people, and they see these creatures,

they're affected with, seems like a form of post-traumatic stress. Yeah, for sure. I mean, and that's why I really enjoy, enjoys the wrong word to use here, but I find a fascinating to when I do these interviews, a lot of times I'm doing video interviews with people, and to see their reactions as they're telling me the story, like reliving it, I mean, some of these people, I mean, you probably heard it on the show, people would break down crying at times. And it's just like, that's stuff you don't make up, you know, like, clearly these people were affected by something. And it's just so fascinating to the fact that all these people are affected by this, PTSD and all that, yet we just, we really can't get solid evidence that they're actually there outside of people's, you know, eyewitness encounters.

Yeah, I mean, I think the footprints are pretty darn convincing, but they're never going to convince a hard skeptic. I think the hair and the DNA evidence is pretty interesting stuff. But, you know, the hard skeptics are going to need a body to prove it to them. And science really doesn't reward the cutting edge. you know science science rewards the the the proven the things that are already proven basically

you know yeah yeah so it's going to take a body you know it's going to take a body they're not going to take anybody's word for it and and I I always stress this too on my own podcast and elsewhere whenever I talk about this

I believe something's leaving footprints I believe something's leaving hair behind I believe something's leaving scat behind I believe people are seeing these things I just am not sure they're the same as, you know, a squirrel or a fox or a bear or another animal we're seeing in the woods. There's something weird about them. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

That's exactly how I feel. And, you know, speaking of your podcast, let us tell us about it a little bit. What's your podcast all about? It's called Strange Familiar's. You can find us wherever you listen to podcasts or Strange Familiar's.com. And it's similar to the confessionals, I guess. I try to sometimes we'll do witness interviews. Sometimes I like to try to do a lot of on-site things.

Obviously, I'm limited as to how far I can go. I do have a family. I can't drop everything and run to California as much as I'd like to. But, you know, we'll do some one-site reports sometimes. We try to tell stories, you know, through either. old newspaper reports a lot of times or witness reports and on-site visits and try to kind of mix it up and combine things. So people have compared it to a paranormal cereal, which is a very, very nice. It's a very nice compliment. Yeah, you know, I enjoy listening to your podcast as well.

I remember when you first started talking about getting together. I was really excited to listen to it and, you know, I subscribed as soon as you came out with it. And with your book, Bigfoot in Pennsylvania, where can people get it? Amazon is the easiest for people I know, and people a lot of times are like, well, you know, I want to get it directly from you. And that's super nice, and I'm very willing to sell it to people directly. But no one should feel guilty about getting it from Amazon. They're actually, it's a very fair split. They give independent authors.

And I know a lot of people have Prime, which means free, you know, free shipping. So just being realistic, you know, I know that's the easiest place for people to find it. Yeah. Yeah. So if somebody wanted to find you personally, you're on Facebook, right? Facebook or just strangefamilures.com has links to everything from the podcast to me personally and emails and everything. That's probably the easiest place. Awesome, Tim. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and talking about your book and some of the experiences people has had in PA. So I really appreciate it, man.

Oh, thanks for having me. Absolutely. Take care. Well, I hope you guys go ahead and check out Timothy Renner's new book, Bigfoot and Pennsylvania. If you're a history buff, I guarantee you're going to love this book because he really dives into the history of Bigfoot in Pennsylvania. So go ahead and check it out on Amazon and let him know what you thought of the book once you read it because he loves hearing people's feedback. Now next up on tonight's show, we're bringing on Michael. Michael approached me a little while back saying that his friend was actually on Sasquatch Chronicles episode 248, Be Careful What You Wish

for. His friend talked about an experience that they had up in the Poconos. one night when they went looking for Bigfoot as college students. It was a big group of them, and they decided to go out there looking for this thing, and they actually found it. So he wanted to come on tonight and share his vantage point as to what happened that night, because up until now, he hasn't been really able to talk about it because it's been so sensitive to him. Before we talked to Michael, though, I wanted to play a little bit of a montage from episode 248 on Sasquatch Chronicles so you could hear how this whole thing developed over on Sasquatch Chronicles with Michael's friend Justin. Take a listen.

To the Poconos in Pennsylvania a few times. We parked the car, we hiked in. We just made a few calls. We listened. Mike and I decided we were just going to just let out one of my favorite, one of my favorite calls, one of the cons I've been good at. This time we got something back. Very clear that it was almost exact same from what we were, which was the thing that struck us the most. And that's when I heard the shuffling, this kind of like footsteps. I remember behind me there was this kind of large rock. I decided I was going to just kind of hop on the top, just kind of like see if I can look over the brush. Maybe like maybe whatever it is is underneath maybe the brush or whatever.

lower, or maybe if I get a higher vantage point. I just kind of in my head was just thinking if I could just get higher, I could maybe see something else when I just saw this, like, mass, this, this arm and this leg and this just, this thing go from one tree to the next. Okay, tonight I have a special guest coming on, Mike, and I actually got an email from Mike. I think it was an email, or maybe it was a Facebook message, saying that his friend was on Sasquatch Chronicles sharing an encounter that they both had in the Poconos in Pennsylvania. And he said that he would like to share that story and another encounter they had. And just kind of like talk about it from his vantage point.

Mike, how are you, man? I'm doing a lot, Tony. How are you? I'm doing good, man. When you contacted me, I remember you saying something about the encounter and I asked you what episode it was. And when you said 248, I knew exactly what encounter. was because I reference your encounter all the time. Whenever I'm talking to somebody that's in the

northeast of PA, I reference that encounter because it's easy for people to go and listen to and hear, yes, these things are in northeast Pennsylvania. And so I just thought it was so ironic. And then it turns out the college you guys went to is right around where I live and I actually delivered to that college campus and all that stuff. It's just a small world, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Before we get into the big encounter that you guys had, you and Justin, you guys actually started, you know, trying to get the feel for, you know, being out in the woods at night in Valley Forge State Park, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we did.

So it's just one of those things where we knew we're both really big on just preparing for crap. And we're good at preparing, but we're also really, really impulsive. It's a weird mix, but it works. And so we decided just to get used to the idea of being in the woods at night, kind of getting a feel for navigating and things like that. We would take a hike through Valley Forge. And then it would also give us a chance. You know, it's a big open area to try some calls, you know, where we were both really big on, are really big on

doing our due diligence and learning as much as we can and one of the things I guess you do in this field is learn how to make those calls this Sasquatch calls and so we took that as an opportunity to try them as well

and so we hyped into the park after hours and we had to kind of duck to avoid a police car that was coming by. But once we made it into the part, we started practicing and, you know, it went well and it was fun. So we decided to try a couple tactics that Justin had thought of. And so we had two people that were with us. And we had them go off a little bit to kind of do like a return call for us just to see if, I don't know, it was our idea that maybe we'd get to trick them.

And to thinking like, well, there's a sound coming from there, but there's a sound coming from over there. Maybe it's not, you know, just some kids. We made the call and we told them, you know, like wait 30 seconds before making any kind of response. And so we make the call and we're sitting silently and we're waiting. And then I don't know if you've ever heard a tree branch like twist that's like slightly broken, but it makes that sound like, yeah. We like both of us like, we, like, we. we both nearly yeah we we both kind of lost it like hard shot into our throat like obviously it wasn't

anything because Valley Forge is very much enclosed in you know there's there's nothing really there but that was a that was a good looking back that was a really funny and very silly moment yeah absolutely I know that part very well in fact actually we would go in there as well after hours and stuff in college just to walk around and get out and get away. And it's such a historic location. Yeah. But there really isn't. Honestly, there's nothing.

There couldn't. I mean, it's so surrounded by industry. I mean, you got King of Prussia right there and the mall and everything. And so. It's all, yeah. So you guys go out into the state park and you kind of just get used to things. And then you decide, okay, let's do this for real. And you go up.

into the Poconos. And, you know, I'm familiar, obviously, with Pennsylvania. And I've driven truck up into the Poconos. I've spent some time up there. It's really out there, you know, once you get up there. And I've always thought that there definitely could be things up there. And in fact, the famous Pennsylvania White Bigfoot was shot in Carbondale County, which is in that general area. And so, you know, I'm a big fan of that. video. I do believe that video is real. And that's the general area that you guys were in. So from your vantage point, what happened that night? All right. So that night, it started, there was actually another place that we started before we found this, this larger encounter. It was a spot that we had

done before, which we liked because you kind of, it was, it was, like a five-ish minute hike into the woods from a parking lot, but then it opened up to these rolling hills, and there's a power line that runs straight through the area. And so with the power line, you know, there's no trees that are right in the air. So it makes it a little bit easier to do some walking. And it allowed us to really get a feel for how far the calls we were making could carry. And so we we had been doing our thing over there.

And all of a sudden, we heard these voices from the woods behind us, sounded followed by like ATVs. And we weren't about to take any chances because we weren't, I don't think we were technically supposed to be there. So we booked it back to the cars because we could and floored it out of there. And then we found another area. up by Bear Creek. I don't know if you know where that is, but...

Yeah, up from here. Okay. So we found this long, winding road that was sort of, you know, it was kind of like, it was in the boonies. It was off the beaten path. And we pulled off to the side of the road. And we, again, you know, just started making calls in one of our, one of the two guys that was with us. He was a big fan. We always carried bats with us to do.

the uh to do some wood knocks because you know that that's something that we thought you just do uh when you're doing this uh and so he would make the wood knock and we'd wait and then kind of off in the distance we were hearing like it's it's not like something walking through the woods uh you know we just kind of wrote it off like it's probably deer or fox or something the forest you know that night it was just it was loud it was loud in the forest um yeah the crickets, owls, animals just all over the place that are making noise. So we didn't really, you know, we didn't think anything of it. And it was, you know, there was a trail that was off to, it was off to our left.

And we didn't really, we didn't go into it because there was a, I think it was probably like a five foot, like jump up to the area where we could actually go in. And we said, I'm like, eh. we'll look somewhere else. So we drove down the road a little bit, and we pulled off on this, I don't know if you, yeah, I'm sure you've probably seen them. There's these little like dirt patches off to the side of the road every now and again. And they, we pulled off on one of those, and we looked in, and it looked like there was a semblance of a trail. So we started walking in. And probably, I want to say, like 100 to 150 yards in, we came across what I'll only really describe as like a grove.

There was just this area where there was no real tree. We were surrounded by trees. And then there was a rock right in the middle, which looking back, that was actually kind of cool. but so we we walked in and we stopped around that area and we again you know just made our calls and I let out a small whoop and we waited and then it kind of got weird from there because the forest just got silent, like eerily quiet. Like if you heard a leaf drop from a tree,

you'd hear it hit the ground. That kind of quiet. And we hear off to our right. We heard this kind of shuffling, like something walking through the woods. And it was around that time, like I started getting this really weird feeling in my gut. like I believe the gut is the sixth sense.

You know, if it tells you something, so if something's wrong, it will tell you. And I got that really weird feeling. And I didn't really know what to do, but, you know, I'm trying to find myself, it's probably a deer, you know, something. You know, it's got to be something. And, you know, I talk to.

with Justin and he and I kind of like, well, let's just like, let's light the woods up. You know, we're all carrying flashlights. You know, if it's a deer or something, we'll see it. And if it's not, I don't know what we'll do. Hopefully nothing bigger. And so we click on the flashlights and there's nothing there's nothing there. and then Justin gets the idea to climb on top of the rock, which is probably not even that large,

probably maybe like seven inches to a foot somewhere in that ballpark. It was weirdly shaped, though. They gave him enough elevation just to get a little bit of a different view, and we're not really, you know, we're not really seeing too much. So he asked me to, like, point my flashlight. down so he can get off the rock and we were going to head back to the car and as he's stepping down from the rock um i'm looking up at him making sure he's okay holding the flashlight down so i'm not really paying attention to what's off to the side but i as he's getting down from the rock i see him

look over and his like i see his jaw just drop um and that that that look of like pure fear that you just see you just instantly recognize like there's something crazy he just saw and he can't even really get any words I was pointing

so we immediately you know flip our lights back over there like what you see man like I don't know what we should do and he tells me he says he says he saw an arm and a leg swing behind a tree and we

uh we uh we um we kind of just like we're staring it we it was the like we didn't expect to see anything um we didn't know what to do

and uh one of the guys he kind of has a mind of his own he doesn't doesn't think like group mentality he just kind of does something so he walked off to the side.

He was going to try to get a different angle on it with the flashlight, which in hindsight was probably the stupidest thing he could have done. Separate himself from the group. But we decided we were going to start walking forward. Justin, he thought he knew the tree that he saw this thing at. And so we, our mentality was really like, okay, either we get to the tree and it's, there's nothing and it was just a light playing a trick like a branch or something

or we're going to pin this thing down and I don't know what we're going to do with it you know we I have a hatchet strapped to my side I think Justin had a knife and the other guys had that's like we're so unprepared for this you know and we at that point I will say you know our best guess was that this was basically an intelligent ape running through the woods. I have since changed my opinion of that after doing more investigating into it. And it blows my mind that we didn't die that night that night. But as we're slowly walking over towards the edge of the grove, and then to our left

we hear this like snap I was close enough where I actually heard a thud like a large foot you know like smacking it around and I know Justin turned with me I don't know about the other guys

I know the one was way far off I don't know about the other guys but we turned and not even remotely like eye level with us but up um it's just eye shine

you know not huge they weren't out of this world enormous eyes but they were definitely larger than ours and this was probably like I would say at least eight feet off the ground um it was definitely a

like I had to look up and it was staring back at us and that that was really the point where my heart just jumped into my throat like I don't know if you ever had those nightmares where you want to scream but you can't actually make any noise but that's really what I felt like in that moment I was

petrified and the thing I'll never forget was that it just like it slowly blinked at us and then it started the eye they went behind a tree

and the crazy thing is they came out the other side um and when we talked about it after we realized like these eyes they weren't bobbing or anything like that like if it was an animal that was running across the branch or something across a branch its eyes would like you know you'd see them bounce but no it was just it was a

fluid movement back and forth and it it just kind of kept peeking out from beyond from behind the tree it just looked like it was just watching us and then

it started moving to the next tree next tree to its left our right and it kind of did the same thing it poked and it looked from behind the tree like that And then I think it might have moved like one or more. It never took its eyes off of us the entire time.

It was just staring us down. And then it went after, I think it went like maybe one or two more trees after that. I honestly don't remember most of this night's a blur. It went behind a tree. and then it never it didn't come back out but maybe it felt like what was it felt like an eternity but it it was probably maybe maybe a minute um but the forest just came back to life you know it was all a sudden it was just he described it really well as like somebody had you know turned the audio dial from zero to

you know to zero to full all of a sudden the course it was loud again that was our you know kind of snap back to reality and we just stared to each other looked at it and hauled it back to the car man we ran I'm not a runner

but I'm pretty I vaulted rocks and crap that was in my way um we got back to the car and got in. Justin was driving, but I locked the doors. I don't know what that actually would have done, but you know, whatever. It made me feel better.

And I, you know, we just sat for, it must have been like five or ten minutes, just in shock over what we saw. and then Justin just put the car and drive and we started going home. We had a really long drive. There wasn't any real discussion until like maybe an hour and a half into the trip. It was just silence in the car. And then we kind of started processing what we had seen like. It was sort of like that confirmation like, okay, everybody saw this. Like we're, we're not all insane. You know, this, this wasn't, this, this was a thing that we all experienced together. Um, and we kind of started talking about, you know, what like theories. We, you know, we, we, we came out with a theory, which, you know, it's, it's pure speculation above and beyond everything else. But, you know, our, our best theory was that we had found a juvenile,

making a mistake and then it's parent, other member of family, whatever, just decided to, you know, step in. Which is pure speculation. There's no way to tell, but that was sort of our

initial best guess, but and then it was, I kind of just came to this realization like we just had this incredible experience and nobody's going to believe us. And you know, I said that was like, no one's going to believe anything that we tell him tonight.

And I don't totally know how to deal with this. And the car, it just got quiet again until we made it back to our dorm. And when we got back, it wasn't even like, okay, guys, you know, we'll see you later kind of thing. We just parked a car, grabbed our gear, walked back to. our individual rooms. I don't even think I slept that night. I might have gotten half an hour. We didn't get back until probably like three, four,

ish in the morning. And we, yeah, I didn't sleep a wink. But yeah, that was that was that night. Yeah, man, that's, I can't imagine. the feeling you have going out there and not truly expecting to see anything. I mean, you've been out there before and then all of a sudden it's right there. Yeah. Because, all right, so when you're telling me this story, I can see in your face,

your demeanor's changing as you get deeper into it. Is it something that still affects you to this day? I think to an extent, you know, we still went out after that night. it took it took us a couple of weeks to kind of recover and we did end up going out after that but you know it's it's still something that like every time we went out you know and every time

really every time we've gone out since then it's something that's always kind of stuck out in my mind like to the point where I've started you know like mentally preparing like okay well it's different scenarios that pop in my head like well what happened what would happen a bit of attack you know it it could have killed us all and you know thank god it didn't but it was just sort of the like we're screwed if you know i think we just got really lucky um because it's it's the story of our lives just and i you know we've been best friends since college.

We've nearly died together more times than I can count for doing a variety of stupid things. It's probably just not even healthy. But, you know, that's that's that's that's our friendship. I love the kid the death. But I'm not. It's almost I think hopeless is the word I would use. like if we go out and see one of these things again like in the capacity that I did like

I didn't remember I had an axe on my side I didn't think to regret it I didn't think to do any of that it was just a and it's yeah I guess to an extent yeah I haven't really thought about it not too too much but yeah I guess it has been kind of affecting me in a way I'm definitely more hesitant to go out on these night hikes and things like that. I think part of it is just fear.

Yeah. Actually, I'm finding into one thing. I've been fascinated with it for a long while. A long, long while, the whole topic. And I still do my own investigating and things like that. I love listening to your show and Sasquatch Chronicles and things. like that and it's um and then just doing my own research but yeah it's uh it's just i think just really kind of thrown me for a loop to get to to i definitely won't go into the woods alone i'll tell you

that um i i can't bring myself to to do that um you know i would have to go with brand if not too. So when you were there that night and you said that you had that one friend that kind of went off on his own and you guys, you know, hindsight looking back, you're like, that was a stupidest thing he could have done. When he went off on his own, did he go towards this thing trying to get a better look at it? Is that what he was doing? No. So he, if, I'm trying to think of how to describe this. He, he almost backtracked away and kind of took like he wanted, he wanted, He went off at an angle to where we were. So if I'm going to try to do this on the screen here,

so we're roughly, if we're hypothetically sick here, and we think the creatures are here, he kind of went off this way. So he didn't go like towards it, but he kind of backed off to see if he could get a different angle on it. But by the time he, I don't even know when he made it back to the group, the awful armas were there staring at these. these eyes and the fourth guy, not the fella who ran back, but the fourth guy, and he was just

sitting there like, I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like this, I don't like this, he's just monitoring it to himself over and over and over, which isn't what you asked, I'm sorry. No, it's fine. I wonder, what did he have to say about that night, the guy who kind of went off on his own? Because you say that he was all of a sudden back with you guys, you don't know kind of really when he came back. But a lot of times people say that these things aren't alone. And so, and you even said that, you know, pure speculative, but it could be, you know, a juvenile and an adult coming in to kind of figure out what's going on. So even in your speculation, the theory that you guys present, there could be a two there. Did he ever talk about, you know,

when he went off on his own, did he ever sense or see or hear anything out there when he was alone? I mean, I'll be honest, I don't really know. He, I mean, we were friendly, but, you know, he's not someone that I, you know, would call up and say, hey, man, let's grab lunch. So he, he was connected to Justin. Justin was an R.A. at school. And he, this kid lived on his hall. So I really don't know. That's a great question.

But I honestly don't know. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious because just the way I'm picturing in my mind, and you say that he was all of a sudden back, it makes me feel like he got creeped out by something maybe and hurried back. But, I mean, I can't imagine, well, I don't know. Shock does a lot of things. I mean, it seems odd to me that four guys would drive back to college,

barely talking about what happened. happened, but when you're in that state of being of shock, like, I hear that all the time. People say that, you know, they saw a UFO or something like that with a group of people and nobody talks about it. And that's just not normal. That's just, that's not normal behavior. It's something that, you know, at the very least, you're in shock. And so, you know, I just, I don't know. I was just curious if you knew anything about that. But did you guys, did you, for instance, did you ever sense had that feeling that you guys were being watched by something else as well, like from another angle?

Is that kind of like how the theory of two being there developed, or was that just pure speculation? I think that's just speculation. I don't know. I've had a roller coaster light, but I've learned to trust my gut. And I'm not sure if that's where that really. I guess developed but like I mean it was just

I think that that theory kind of developed over the fact that we hear so often that these creatures are just so careful with their interactions and seeing one just like

I guess basically getting pinned behind a tree seems kind of like a rookie mistake if you will. And then, you know, I think Justin, he described it as being probably like six and a half feet roughly, roughly, fish tall, which is still, you know, big. But not quite the size that you would see these things otherwise. And so when we're staring at a 8 foot tall thing, and I'm just, I'm guessing with that, I really am,

but it was significantly taller than us. That was just sort of the, I guess that was just the way we could rationalize how, like, or what happened. just sort of our field attempt to figure it out. Right. Now, with the eyeshine, you guys are looking at these eyes. And if I'm correct, you did describe it as eyeshine, right?

Yeah. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions here because I'm curious as to this whole eye shine thing. First off, when it comes to the eye shine, could you describe what kind of shine you're talking about? Are you talking about something that was reflecting light from your flashlights, or was it something that you think was actually illuminating from within? How would you describe this eye shine?

So I think it would be reflective. I mean, I've heard the theory of bioluminescence. I don't totally buy it. If only because as far as I know, I don't think any. other mammals have that ability. I mean, forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I don't think they do. I know it's a thing with some fish, but I don't think it's anything with mammals. So I think it was just reflecting our flashlights. Okay. Now, with the eyes shine, I know you said the memory is foggy, but do you remember noticing the distance between each eye?

How, like, was it significant or is that something you really can't remember? I mean, it wasn't, I think it would be hard to give an exact distance, but there were probably a good, like, maybe six or six-ish inches between each eye, I think. I honestly, I couldn't tell you. But that would probably be my best guess. Okay. Yeah. I was just wondering because I know a lot of people when they hear stories and stuff, they try, you know, naturally trying to figure out what else could have been, you know. But when you were telling me how you saw a move from tree to tree, that all in my head, it's like, okay, well, if it's moving from tree to tree, it's not like, you know, a raccoon on a tree peaking from one side of the other.

And the way you described it and how smooth it moved as far as the eye shine goes, I mean, if it's a raccoon, you're going to see it bobbing up and down and things like that. So I find that very interesting. Were you into this whole Bigfoot thing before you went to college, or did you get into this when you met Justin? So I've been like, I didn't do any like hardcore investigating until I met Justin. But I've always kind of believed in these cryptids and things like that. Like when I was growing up, the Lochmus Monster was my hero. If you look behind me, you'll see it on a picture in my office.

So I've always believed that, you know, these scripteds could exist. You know, I'm a Christian. And I say that because the basic tenet of the Christian faith is that Jesus came, died on the cross and then was resurrected. And if you really think about that statement was resurrected, you know, that's mind-blowing at its core. And it's impossible for us to really wrap our heads around because it's something we've never really encountered other than the theology that we believe. but you know I believe that it is a thing I believe that the miracles that are written down that Jesus performed I believe those are real the miracles of that other you know Moses leading the Israelites out of the out of Egypt I believe all those things happen so to me it wasn't that far off to believe that

there could be something, some animals that society's just kind of written off as, you know, oh, whatever, but, you know, why not? I think, I think it could be a thing. I think it could be possible. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, when I first started getting into the Bigfoot thing, I often told people that we may never solve this mystery of Bigfoot. and I'm perfectly fine with that. I always told people that I might get to heaven one day and say,

God, what was this Bigfoot thing? And he'll be like, it's exactly what you thought it was. Only I just made it for me, my pure enjoyment wasn't meant for you. You know? You just, you don't know how God works, you know? So, yeah, I just, I absolutely understand what you're saying. So what happened before this big encounter? because you described, you said to me that something else happened.

I don't think it was that night, though. No, it wasn't that night. But there was another night. We had gone to, it was that area I talked to you about with the power lines and things like that. So we actually followed them down for a while. And we, I don't even think it was that far. It's probably only like half a mile.

Um, but we, um, we, we, we stopped and we made our, made our calls and, and things like that. And, um, we heard like rustling in some bushes, um, that were, were nearby, really, really dense bushes. And so, you know, our, our thought was, let's just, you know, see if we can power through them with flashlights. and we couldn't. It was just too thick. But we figured it was probably just a deer something, you know, because the rule that we always had,

excuse me, going into these nights and these trips was rule out everything before you assume, before we assume it's a Sasquatch or Viclut or anything like that. and so if there's nothing other than some shuffling in leaves is probably just a woodland critter you know a decent chance that's that's what it is and so at that point we decided that we were going to turn around and start walking walking back um

And to, I guess, describe the scene. So there was the bushes. And then it was just like really steep mountain slope that just shot straight up. And it was almost like these power lines. It's like it kind of felt like they cut a valley through the mountains to place these things, which I hope they didn't. But that's that's sort of how it looked. And it was just completely covered in trees. And so we turned around.

We're walking away. And I don't know why, but I just had this feeling like I should turn around and take a look, not even with a flashlight or whatever, but just kind of look. And all I see is like a black mass and what looks like a leg just shoot up the side of the mouth from these bushes. And I see the bushes like they shake, like something just left from there. and my heart stopped. Not quite as bad as it was during the, I'm going to say more intimate encounter that we had. But it was, I didn't know if my eyes were playing tricks on me or what,

thinking, well, maybe it was a shadow. Oh, wait, my flashlight's off. There's no lights that are out there. So something took off from, those bushes and hauled it straight up a mountain um and so i i i stopped the group and yeah i'm just i can't even really talk i'm just pointing you know shaking and finally get the ability to actually speak and i say i just saw something tear up the side of that mountain and so we justin he gets all excited like We walked back and we start looking for tracks of some kind and it had actually snowed.

I don't know if it was, I forget, I think it was like earlier that week. And it wasn't, there wasn't like a ton of snow, just enough that it sort of lightly covered the ground. And we saw that there was a large indent. in the snow. Nothing specific. Like there's no way we could have taken any kind of casting or anything like that. No defined toes or anything like that. But it was roughly in the shape of a foot and probably about that big, which is difficult there. It's bigger than my head. So you say it was about what, 12 inches? Like 12 to 15-ish. Okay. ballpark

I could just be remembering wrong it was definitely a while but we uh we ended up taking a picture of it and we didn't have anything to reference it

so I think we laid a pencil next to it that somebody had in their pocket uh super professional we were um but yeah that um

that was really that encounter it was very very brief very quick. I kind of doubted myself. Like, I wonder, you know, like, what it could have been, you know, if anything, you know, maybe it just was my ice playing tricks on me or, like, a branch that was, like,

moving in the wind or something. But then I think the following encounter, the bigger one, I think that really solidified it for me. and kind of confirmed like, okay, I'm not crazy. So how far apart were the two encounters? I mean, when you first saw that thing shoot up the mountain and then the big encounter, distance-wise, how far apart was it? I want to say it was probably only a month or two. Well, what about like distance-wise as far as miles?

We're doing the same as general area? Sorry. I don't know, probably like 20, maybe 30 miles difference. When we, because we were there before, that was a spot where we were chased away by the people at the ATVs before we went off to the bigger encounter. And I think it took us the better part of like 30 to 45 minutes to get to the other spot. Okay. That makes sense. you saw it shoot up the mountain out first of all would you say it was bipedal did it seem bipedal to you yeah yeah it would look that way yeah and as far as mass goes you didn't see enough to really make a judgment call as far as how big it was no no there's there was no way okay it was it was literally

like the point of an eye and you didn't like see it run for a distance it was just like sudden boom shoot somewhere and kind of goes into direction that was up the mountain, where did you actually see it for a little distance running? No, it was once it, there was probably a span of maybe seven feet, seven to ten feet between the brush and then tree cover. So I saw it for that. Excuse me, that span. Okay.

When this all is going on and stuff and you saw what you saw going on. up the mountain and then you have the big foot encounter where you're seeing these eyes stare at you and Justin actually saw part of it. You guys go back. You can't really talk to each other. You're just like in shock and awe. Who have you guys talked to since then? I mean, have you been able to talk to your family, your friends, or is it something that you really just kind of don't talk a whole lot about really I can't speak for the two guys that uh not justin I'm not super super close with them um I know Justin has told our story a couple of times obviously he went on on Saskatch Chronicles and told um told the story there um I found I I really

couldn't tell the story like I would say you know I did have an encounter if anybody asked but I couldn't really bring myself to actually tell it. So the only person I really told in full was actually my wife. And then a couple of my coworkers who were talking about it and how they wanted to go out and look for Sasquatch. And so I kind of gave them that story as a warning. just prepare what'd they say

they were they were like it was like they were shocked I know it was I don't think they expected to hear any of that you know it's really

I think it's rare to me anyone who will open up and tell a story and I felt like you know for the longest while it's just been a burden kind of like laying on me

where I haven't really been able to tell this part of my life. You know, kind of a really like, for what it's right, it's like a life-changing moment. And, you know, I'm fortunate enough that my wife is, she's very wonderfully non-judgmental. And, you know, after everything, you know, she'd actually come out and said that, you know, she believes these things exist as well.

There's no interest in going into the what's to look for them, which you please say exists. And so I think that's really the only sauce I've really been able to take. Your coworkers that wanted to go out looking for it and you warned them about your encounter, I think that's a common case for people where they're like, oh, it'd be so cool to go out there and looking for Bigfoot. And I think a lot of times people in the back of their mind, they're just going out there, thrill-seeking, trying to get, you know, a little chill up and down their spine, but they don't really expect to see anything. And that's natural because you didn't expect to see anything,

you know, and you were out there looking for it. You guys believe they exist. And you and Justin were, you know, doing your thing. I mean, you guys were preparing by going into Valley Forge and, you know, practicing in there before you actually went out somewhere where you knew is possible to have them around. And it was just, I think a lot of times people, they just don't get it, you know. I mean, I've never seen a Sasquatch. And I think I'm prepared as much as you can be for something like that. But, you know, once you're in that moment, who knows? Who knows?

And so, you know, maybe those guys, did they ever go out looking for it then? Or did you kind of scare them away from it? I actually don't know. I wasn't in that job for very much longer. I actually got promoted up to another position. I think it was like the week following. So I really didn't get a chance to follow up with them and see if they actually did. Gotcha.

Okay. So last thing I want you to share with us, what's it? What is this rednecks almost shooting you guys thing? I got to hear this story. So this is a story. I, I, I, I do enjoy sharing. so Justin and I we took one of the guys that had come with us on the big encounter we decided we were going to go out again because for us it you know it's a

three-ish hour drive so it's just it's a guy night you know it's just time is that's really how we saw those nights is not primarily to go look for Sasquatch was just to spend time together and enjoy just enjoy each other company So we took off and we found the spot that we had picked out because we always do our research before we go to see, you know, like we see if there's been any recent sightings anywhere. And that's usually where we plan on going. And so this spot was up by the Delaware water gap up in that area. And so we pulled off the road to where we were going to go into the park. And we passed a campground probably like half a mile back.

And so we parked our car at the campground because there was really nowhere else to pull over. And then we just hiked it into the woods. We made it probably like four, maybe 500 meters into the 500 yards into the woods. and then we made a couple calls, and all of a sudden we heard a commotion from back towards where the campground was. And we hear a truck getting turned on and then like peeling out of the campground.

And we really didn't think too much of it. So we started trying to walk a little bit further in. and all of a sudden we turn around and there's headlights that are starting to come into the clearing where there was a small like access road that they had apparently come into and so once we saw the lights you know we were like get down you know we didn't know what what was there um but they um they got out of their it was like a truck car whatever it might have been but they opened up the trunk

and all we hear is the sound of of a gun being caught and yeah they pull out it was a a lantern kind of thing of spotlight and they're like combing the forest

and we're just like hunched down as low as we can absolutely go you know, we're wearing darker clothing, which probably wasn't the smartest ball. But, um, yeah, they,

they stay there for the better part of three minutes, just like combing the, the woods looking for, for something to shoot. Uh, for you. Yeah, for us. That,

yeah, they were looking for us to shoot. Um, and eventually they, they climbed back into their car and they kept going, we were like, screw this. So we both.

it back to the car and we tore out of there. Wow. So they most certainly heard you guys making calls and they probably were freaked out. And they probably like, whatever monster that is, we're going to go shoot it. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to kill it. And then it's going to be mounted on my wall.

That's. They're probably back at their camp saying, do you know what that is? No, it sounds like that bigfoot sound I've heard on finding bigfoot. Yeah. Oh my gosh, man. So you're putting all these calls out and you get something, just not what you thought it would be. No, we got the exact opposite thing of what we wanted. You became a prey.

That was just another example of another time, Justin, I should have died together. Sounds like a very healthy relationship. Oh, it's wonderful. Best friend. He really is like, you know, for, you. he he he he's he's he's such a great guy he really is i i absolutely adore him that's awesome man it's rare that you find friendships in life that are uh timeless like that you know i mean i've had so many friends throughout my life that just come and go you know it's hard to find the friends

that stick no matter what so yeah that's really cool that you guys have that relationship yeah so let me ask you before we get out of here you know you've had these experiences You obviously believe in Bigfoot. What do you think Bigfoot is? You hinted before that your mind has changed. So what do you think Bigfoot is now? So kind of where my mind, just to, I guess, give you a little bit of backstory, you know, where my mind was initially was just that it was an ape in the woods.

I think I said that earlier. but having listened to a lot of the encounters on a variety of different things the interview you did with Rocky Elmore that really shook me you know hearing how I have nothing but respect for Border Patrol agents and hearing how they heard the big, it just like fell into the creek and they couldn't find any friends anywhere around there.

That really freaked me out. And then hearing other stories and doing my own research into the Nephilim. I've kind of come under the impression that I think that's probably what we're dealing with. is something like, I don't know if it is like the Nephilim, but something along those lines. I know they weren't killed off in the flood. There's a tiny little two words in the Bible that said they were there before and after. And I think that, I don't know if it's that the Nepalian are. are like choosing these things as like a host, host body, or if that's just what they are.

But that's kind of where my head's at right now. And, you know, I think it's really important to always be able to change your mind, if, if you will, like always keep your mind open. To new evidence that sort of produces itself, presents itself. So as more information comes forward, I think it's important to be able to change your opinion. Absolutely. That's my best guess at this point, yeah. Yeah, you know, and I actually, I mean, I think people probably gather from the fact that I've had two shows in my first 20 shows talking about Nephilim. I'm obviously into the topic.

and, you know, something happened there. And either they didn't die during the flood or it happened again, you know, I'm in the very beginning stages of doing some serious digging into this. And it's going to take time and effort because I'm going to be doing a lot of original language research, you know, looking into the Hebrew and what actually, Well, it's important to understand different things because you lose things in translations. And so there's times in the Hebrew and different languages where they'll use a word that when you translate it to English, it can be translated into two, three different words. And it's up to the translator's discretion to figure out what the meaning really was. And so you have to look into things as far as context goes, what was going on around that word. And what was going on? What was the person that was writing trying to tell you? And so I'm going to be

doing a lot of that kind of stuff. It just takes a lot of time and time is not on my side right now. But I see a lot of sleepless nights ahead of me because it's something that is bubbling up inside of me and I just can't really subdue it anymore. But the Nephilim definitely were around afterwards. Numbers 1333, they said that when they sent some of the people of Israel into the land to come back and they say, there's giants in the land and we look like grasshoppers to them. You know? So, and that's post-flood. And so clearly, whatever was going on before the flood happened again at least, you know? And you can draw different conclusions. You can, when it comes to the whole Bigfoot thing, you could say, is it a hybrid? Did these fallen angels not only have sex

with women but animals. Did they create these hybrid beings? Did they create these beings as empty shells that they're, when the Nephilim die, some people say that when the Nephlem die, their spirits are demons that we experience today and that maybe those demons now inhabit these empty shells that the fallen angels created for that purpose. There's so many different theories and thoughts and stuff about it. But it's important if you're going to dive into the scriptures and try figuring and this kind of stuff out, it's important to do it as accurate as possible. You know what I mean? Instead of picking and choosing, that's what a lot of people do.

I mean, it's just the culture we live in now. People want to believe what they want to believe. You know, and it's like, well, if you're going to give credence to the Bible, you need to actually look into it as for what it really is, you know? And so I give you kudos, man, for, you know, doing that. And I've heard that before. And I don't know. For me, the jury's still.

out. You know, I'm trying to figure that out myself. But, um, that's, that's really where I'm at, too. It's, you know, there's, that, that's the best guess I can come up with. Um, but I, I don't know. That's, it, it, it, you know, I, I think West puts it the best way possible, you know, we don't have one of these things in a garage that we're studying. It's, it's all up into interpretation. You know, there's, until, until we have one. that we can, you know, pull apart and study, we're never going to know. Do you think that somebody somewhere,

whether it's government or whatever, has had a body and it's just not being talked about? It wouldn't surprise me if the government has had a body. You know, I believe it's, I believe it's a government cover up. I really do in one way or another. You know, whether it's because the American citizens couldn't possibly wrap their mind around the idea that there's something out there that's bigger than us that can kill us or for, you know, whatever other reason. You know, I don't totally buy into the idea that the forest industry is covering it up, you know, the forest.

I don't buy into that. But, you know, I, it really wouldn't surprise me. Like, you know, if the government ever did come forward and say how, admit these things were real, like, it wouldn't surprise me in any of those, like, be classified documents. If they say, oh, yeah, we picked one up in, you know, the 70s. And we've been, we studied it for as long as we could. And then we got another one. And then another one. I don't know. It's just, it wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, and there's a lot of people that tell stories of talking to, I believe it was actually on Wes's show, Sasquatch Chronicles, where he talked about, or he had somebody come on, that's what it was. They had an interview where this guy was a Mormon, I believe, and he was knocking on door to door, talking to people about their faith. He meets an old man, and the old man invites him back to talk, and they build a relationship with this guy, And this guy, I think pretty much on his deathbed, wanted to talk to these two guys again.

And he shared with them how at one time he was involved in working with the government to actually hunt a clan of these things down because I guess they were getting rowdy or something. And but they, I think he, he was a sheriff or something. And they used him to help navigate the area or something like that. I can't remember the story. It was a while ago. But it was a very compelling story. And the bottom line is if these things are real, and, you know, like I say, I've never seen one. So I believe they're real.

But, you know, maybe somehow everybody I ever talked to is lying to me. I don't know. But the fact that these things, you know, for lack of better terminology, they're real. Then there has to be on some level of the government knowledge on it. You know, like, there is, there's no possible way that all these people that are citizens have seen these things, but because you hold a government job, you don't see it. Like, people in the government have had to see it and or, or know about it, you know? And I'm not saying, like, I think I said this before on one of my shows or something

about how it's, I really don't believe Donald Trump's waking up every morning, going to the oval office, the first thing of order of business, hey, I want to know where all those sightings were yesterday. A Bigfoot, where are they at? we need to keep track of these guys, you know, like, I don't think it goes that high. But I think on some kind of level of at least local government, forest, you know, forest rangers, so things like that. I mean, you hear, you hear stories of them talking about, hey, you know, I can't talk about it a whole lot. I'm just telling you, don't go in that valley at night,

you know, things like that. And so I absolutely agree with you that, you know, they have to know somewhere along the line. Now, I know I said this before, but I'll say it again. then last question, because your last answer brought up another question. If you come to conclusion that you're pretty sure Bigfoot is Nephilim, do you go looking for it anymore? So that's tricky because for a while, once I sort of realized that, I don't know what about this. So after the big encounter that we had, you know, up to then, my whole perception was that it was just a creature in the woods. And more just like curious, not anything seriously, you know, that could possibly, like, hurt us because, you know, my whole real. real knowledge base came from a TV program called Finding Bigfoot.

And they don't exactly showcase, they don't, you know, it's a family show. So they're not talking about the more dangerous encounters that people have had, you know, the bluff charges or some of the other crazy things that, you know, we've heard of happen. And then it wasn't until once I sort of started doing more, more investigating into it, you know, listening to more of Wes's show. Did it, like, and I realized, you know, these things that it's not just a curious thing out in the woods. They're, like, actually really dangerous. It really turned me off from going to see it. And then coming to the conclusion that they might be the Nephilim, I'm torn because I love the woods.

I love being out in the woods. And during the day, I have no problem going out. I really don't. There's a whole different story. but thinking on how they might be the Nethulam yeah I'm torn because

as a as a devout Christian I know that God will protect me but equally I don't know if we should really be playing with fire you know if this thing really is of you know

half angel you know half fallen angel then especially with some of the more, for lack of a better term, I guess supernatural power is like that's, you know, I believe God would protect me, but I think to an extent,

unless we're really called to go to find these things, I think it's just inviting temptation. You know, it's like, You can't pray for, pray to be protected and put yourself in a position where you can be hurt. You know, you can't intentionally put yourself into a position where you can be hurt. You know, it's like praying for, in my head, it's the same as like, I pray I get a job, but I'm not going to put it out in any job applications. You know, it's, it doesn't.

It works against each other. Yeah, I think so. So I don't really know because I don't think ultimately I would still gladly go out on the night hype with friends. I'm bringing a big pistol. But I don't know that I would want to go out with a specific intent to go out with a specific intent to go look for them as of right now. I think, at least with, you know, I just, I think that's just inviting something bad to happen. I understand that. Yeah.

I understand that. And I mean, that's perfectly understandable. If they are some kind of form of Nephilim, then you're talking about you're dealing with something that's supernatural. It has supernatural origins, you know, and it has evil supernatural origins. And so, I mean, if you come to that conclusion, it's totally understandable that you would step back from it and be like, eh, I'll observe from a distance in my living room watching Finding Bigfoot, you know? Yeah. And it's, I mean, if I'm going to be out in the woods at night, like, I'll bring a pistol. But it's really, I think it's almost a false sense of security.

Like if, if they are of an evil super. natural thing, then pistol's not going to do. It's not going to do anything. It's like trying to shoot a ghost. Yeah. And that's, yeah, it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense to me. Yeah. I understand that. Well, Mike, listen, I really appreciate you coming on tonight and sharing with us, you know, your side of the story. Now, that show aired on Sasquatch Chronicles a while back. And it's really cool that you're coming forward to to kind of confirm that story, you know, from your vantage point and also share that, yeah, I did see something else before that. And Justin actually talked about it very briefly on Wes's show. And it was really cool for you to come on and just kind of share this stuff and

get it off your chest. And I really hope that, you know, you keep in touch with me. You're living in Maryland. I'm in PA. You know, we're not that far from each other. So, you know, who knows? Maybe one day our paths will cross. But I really appreciate coming on tonight, man. thank you it really you know I want to thank you as well I mean

just yeah people say I know people say this to you a lot but you know thank you for providing an outlet for

for all of us who have had these kind of crazy experiences to come on and you know not feel judged

because I think that's that fear of judgment that it's so permeates and it can do a lot of terrible things to your self-esteem and things like that. But I really thank you for providing such an awesome outlet to talk about that.

I really appreciate that, man. I really do because, you know, it's a shame that people have to be afraid of the whole judgment aspect of things. But the fact of the matter is the people who ridicule usually don't spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff. And if they did, they come to the conclusion that I've come to the conclusion that I've come to a long time ago, people are seeing things out there. And whatever you think it is is irrelevant to the fact that people are actually seeing things. And if they're actually seeing these things,

then they need to be able to talk about it. And I know that's why, like, Wes has his show and it provides such a great outlet for people who have seen Sasquatch. And, you know, that's what kind of this show is about as well, you know, people who have seen just the crazy stuff in life to get it off their chest. And I hope it accomplishes one of two things. I either, I hope it just gets it off your chest and you can move on in life, or I hope by talking about it, it opens up a new door for you to kind of look into things, maybe in a different light, and try to pursue figuring out what the heck did I freaking see, you know? Because I think a lot of times people experiencing things, they shut it off and they don't want, like I said earlier, how many times do we see people who just,

they don't talk about it. They've seen something insane, and yet they don't talk about it. And it's because of that fear of judgment. There's other aspects that probably go into it. But if talking about it and sharing it with an audience, feeling like you're actually able to share your story with people, gets it off your chest and allows you to think clearly to pursue the topic and figure out what you think this thing could be, awesome. You know, so I'm really glad that you feel that way about the show. And I hope I'll people do as well. So, but thanks for coming on, man. Yeah, thank you. All right, man. I'll talk to you later. Sounds good. Bye. Well, that's the show, everybody. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you get a

chance this week, go ahead on Facebook and give us a like or go on Twitter and give us a follow. If you do listen to the show on iTunes, please give us one of those good old happy reviews. You know, those reviews help us out a lot and I really appreciate it. And like I said earlier, if you have an encounter or a story you'd like to share with me, go ahead and email me at The Confessionalspodcast at gmail.com, or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com, hit the connection section, and you can reach me that way as well. Until next week, friends, take care.