The Confessionals - 546: Hunting Legends with Pat Spain

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

In Episode 546: Hunting Legends with Pat Spain we talk to Pat about a lot of his journeys and thoughts on these mysterious legends around the world. He is a wildlife biologist that has an adventurous spirit. This combination allows him to ask the question, "What if" too many legends that others might just disregard as folklore. Pat has laid in a pit with 200,000 snakes, went 1000 feet underwater to see what's down there, and has gone on the hunt for the infamous Loch Ness Monster. We talked about cloning the woolly mammoth and bringing it back to life, giant humans, giant snakes, and hobbits. Pat is a real-life Indiana Jones character that we all deep down inside want to be! Pat's books: https://amzn.to/3o3IAHSPat's Instagram: @patspainThe Confessionals Members App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZBecome a member for AD FREE listening and EXTRA shows: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinCome Meet Tony:1. Smoky Mountain Bigfoot ConferenceTickets: https://bit.ly/3l1wZHR2. LIVE SHOW in Gatlinburg, TN!Tickets: https://bit.ly/3IC4IkxWatch Expedition Dogman: https://bit.ly/3CE6Kg0Tony's Studio Equipment: linktr.ee/mystudiogearSPONSORSGET EMP Shield: empshield.com Coupon Code: "tony" for $50 off every item you purchase! Listen to this episode for more information! Link: bit.ly/3YaMD1NGET SIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGET Hello Fresh: hellofresh.com/confessionals60 Promo Code: "confessionals16" for 16 free meals plus free shipping!!!Get Emergency Food Supplies: www.preparewiththeconfessionals.comCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] to the Newsletter: https://www.theconfessionalspodcast.com/the-newsletterSOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIDiscord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelAre you a military veteran struggling with thoughts of suicide?Contact Watchman Readiness Corps for REAL help. A veteran-run organization that is designed to help through hands-on survival training.Website: wrc.vetEmail: [e-mail]: [phone]Instagram: wrc_survivalFacebook: colbywrcvetOUTRO MUSICVanTesla - Jekyll IslandYouTube | Apple Music | Spotify

Merkel Media This was all circulating around the base that a giant had to kill but no one was supposed to talk about it Long, bony fingers reach up underneath the door, curl up to grab it, and then disappear.

When he came over to me, dude, he slithered over to me. And this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen. And he starts running and firing up this giant. Well, the giant move. He's got a spear in one hand and he's running really fast and spears Dan holds him up like this. Somebody else, shoot him in the face, shoot him in the face.

They basically decapitate him. Feel something pulling at my leg. And I look over and there are two small gray entities pulling it. And they're literally, I'm getting pulled off the bed. I reached my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know. I know I'm seeing a monster. Yep.

Welcome to the show, everybody, listening to The Confessionals. I'm your host, Tony Merkel. Thanks for being here. You have a crazy, wild experience you want to share with me on the show. Go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is contact at theconfessionalspodcast.com. That's contact at the confessionalspodcast.com. Or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com.

Hit the contact section, and you can reach me that way as well. Either it works for me, just get a hold of me. If you want more shows on a weekly basis, every Thursday, we drop a member show to the member only. In order to become a member, you've got to be on the website, hit the join button, and you can sign up to be a member today. You'll get access to those Thursday member episodes, the Tuesday show is ad-free, and overtime segments when they're available. Everything's available on the website and the newly minted The Confessionals app. You can download that in the Apple App Store and in Google Play, log in and start enjoying the member app right there on your phone. If that interests you, go ahead and

check it out. Also, this episode's brought to you by EMP shield.com. That's EMPShield.com. If you want to protect your home and your vehicles, especially your vehicles, because many of us are out mobile at the office, at work, you want to get home. If you want to protect your vehicle from an EMP attack, a solar flare, lightning strikes, you want to get EMP shield at EMPShield.com. Upon checkout, use Tony as the coupon code, and they'll knock $50 off of every device that you purchase off the website. That interests you. Go ahead. Check it out. pshield.com. Now, today we got Pat Spain coming on the show today, and Pat Spain's people

reached out to me. He just dropped six books this year. I think I'm ambitious. This guy has super ambition, and I respect it. He is a wildlife biologist. He comes on the show today to talk about his journeys traveling the world. He's like the real life Indiana Jones. He hunts down legends and monsters and tries finding out the truth of the matter from a scientific perspective. This guy has laid with hundreds of thousands of snakes at one time because he's just a thrill Seeker. He's gone a thousand feet underwater in a submarine. We talk about what he's seen down there. He's gone hunting for the Lochness monster. We talk about hobbits, giants, do dinosaurs exist today? The fact that they're trying to bring back extinct species like the woolly mammoth. We kind of jump

all over to place, talk about a lot of different topics. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this because he is somebody who is in the scientific community, but he has an adventurous spirit that you guys can identify with. So let's bring on Pat Spain and his wild adventures right now. All right, today we got Pat Spain on the show. Pat, how are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you? Ah, doing good. So, you are, man, you're an extraordinary person. You have a lot going on in your life. And it's been absolutely, because when we, they reached out to me about having you on the show, I started looking into what you got going on. And man, I'm telling you, I'm tired. Like, it takes a lot to make me tired. And I'm tired just reading everything that you do. Thank you. Yeah, that's, I hear that a lot. And I can't say my wife loves it, but she's very supportive of it. Yeah, I understand it.

I understand it. My wife, I learned early on, I had to bring her alongside of me in this process. And that allowed her to see all the work that's getting put in. And she kind of can deal with it better that way, I think, because she works a lot, too. Yeah. So, listen, before we get too far into the conversation, if you could just take a few minutes here and just share with people, who is Pat Spain? Thank you. It's a very broad question. So I'm a, I'm a wildlife biologist. I went to school for

Marine Bio, and I've always been passionate about wildlife. That's just the, one of the defining things about myself is I want to know more about the natural world. And when I can't get those answers from books or from videos or from, you know, David Attenborough documentaries, then I'm going to go out there and find it myself. So I've been doing this since I was a little kid. When you're, I just catch everything that I can get my hands on. And when you're the crazy guy holding a rattlesnake in a field, you tend to get a crowd gathered around you. Yes. So even as a little kid, I was giving these impromptu talks going around to my neighbors and through my neighborhood giving wildlife presentations, essentially. And I went to school for this, so I decided to go to college for

marine biology because the deep oceans were the things that I couldn't get any answers from the books for. So that's what I wanted to study. I ended up studying oysters, but that's a whole other story. And I kept up these talks. And, you know, I realized that biologist street performer, you know, this kind of doesn't really pay the bills very well. So I ended up going into biotech for the day job. And I loved it. I loved the connection to the patients. I love being able to help people.

And I love that it gave me the ability to still use my vacation time to pursue my passions. Well, I wanted to reach a larger audience with this message of, you know, conservation and appreciation of wildlife and getting the answers to some of the questions that I had. And my wife suggested, what about TV? So way back in 2003, I did my first wildlife TV show on Animal Planet, and I just never stopped after that. I formed my own wildlife crew. I self-funded, self-wrote, produced, edited, did all that stuff, our own YouTube-based show that I did for a number of years, called Nature Calls. And that got the attention of a few networks and a few production companies. So I spent about six years making that show.

going on a ton of meetings flying out to LA and New York and D.C. to have all these meetings and all these interviews filming a pilot here and there for different networks. And eventually got myself ridiculously in debt, but had a lot of fun doing it. And then six years later, I did a show on National Geographic called Beast Hunter. And this was focused on the kind of bizarre side of wildlife, so Cryptozoology. And I have a family history of this because I'm the great nephew of Charles Fort, who's the profit of the unexplained, Charles Ford. And I've always been fascinated by cryptids and by cryptosology as well, but I look at it as a facet of biology. So I did this show. I loved it. I had an amazing time doing it. Then, unfortunately, I was diagnosed

with cancer. So taken out of the field for about two years and jumped back in and I've been doing wildlife shows, biotech, and I wrote six books since then. You make it sound, so easy to get on TV. You're just like, my wife suggested TV, so I did it. I got on TV. It was not easy, I'll say. Wow. It took a lot of time, a lot of effort and yeah, a good amount of money too. Yes, absolutely. I'm sure. Just to get the notice, but I love it. I mean, that's, I, I enjoyed it. These, these were vacations to me. So taking my crew and I out to Arizona to, you know, film a, film a pilot episode of our own wild life show. That was a vacation, going down to Costa Rica to, you know, catch fertile lance and pull vine snakes out of the trees and find poison dart frogs. I mean, it was just,

it was fun. It was something I do if the cameras weren't there. Right. Yeah. I understand that. You know, I was going to ask you as a layup question, I was going to say, would you describe yourself as a 14th, but you already brought up Charles being a relative of yours? And that's, if the audience doesn't know, that's where the term 40 and coming. from. And so it's almost like it's been written in the cards before you were born that you were going to be going down these roads. Yeah. Yeah. It's so wild because when the production company, Icon films, who are one of the best production companies in the world, they approached me about this show Beast Hunter that they were doing. And they had seen my YouTube stuff. They'd heard from

a couple producers that I'd work with that I was easy to work with, which is, I was happy to hear that. And they were looking for an American host, their British company. So they're explaining the concept of the show. We're talking biology for a while. And then they said, you know, we're going to base this all on this concept, this Fordian concept. Have you ever heard of Charles Ford? And I went, actually, that's my great uncle. And the line just went silent. Oh, man, we have to do this show. This is amazing. So they didn't know about the connection at all when they first approached me. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, that's basically, they're just like, okay, jackpot. We, yeah, that was kind of it. That was the moment. That's, that's wild. That's wild. So,

being a biologist and also looking into the crypto side of things, have you felt like you come under any kind of scrutiny from your peers in the biology field at all? So not really, which is very pleasant. So I really put myself in kind of the Derenethe School of Cryptozoology, where, you know, he describes this, I think, really, really well in saying that Cryptozoology is biology with a good amount of anthropology thrown in as well. And my major was marine biology, and cultural anthropology and philosophy was my minor. So that is perfect for me. So when I talk about crypto, I do tend to put it into scientific terms, and I don't think that I make any kind of

outrageous claims or leaps of faith. I base it all on evidence. The only difference between me and any other kind of mainstream biologist is that I don't immediately write something off that sounds crazy because in reality most of biology sounds crazy when you start describing it. You know, I recognize that the platypus, if you were to describe the platypus to someone, you know, a venomous egg-laying mammal that, you know, can detect electricity with its bill, it sounds wild. It sounds like this is impossible, but we know that it's really there. And I just kind of take that and say, yes, I understand that there's, you know, 60,000 weevils for every one platypus, but there still is a platypus. It still is there.

So what else do we have to discover? And I think the world's far too fascinating to think that we found it all. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that a lot of people that are diving into cryptozoology and people that aren't, you know, biologists, they're just fascinated by the topics, like, is Bigfoot real? I think that's an encouraging thing for them to hear because far too often I feel like there's this this very strong dividing wall between the scientific community and these dorks on the internet that think that everything's real, right? And so it's like it's these people, and I include myself in the dorks category, but like it's, it's, that's why, uh, every once in a while you come across a scientist or a professor that gives credence to these things and these

people gravitate towards them because they're like, okay, so you're telling me I'm not crazy. And they're like, no, you're not crazy because I'm questioning these things as well. And so I'm sure the audience is, they find it encouraging to hear somebody like you talk like that. Well, yeah. And it's not, it's not an immediate, like I am a skeptic. So it's not an immediate acceptance. Just because someone tells me that something is there, I don't immediately believe that this is, that

this is real. But I look at what's the basis of this? You know, I don't believe that people are lying to me, but I want to know what it is that they've seen. So the way that I approach this is, you know, what are the known animals in the area? Could this possibly be mistaken identity? What are the known creatures? What other animals display the traits that you're describing?

Is this something that's completely unknown to science? If it is, like if we start talking, you know, the realm of spirits and ghosts and things like that, I tend to pull back and say, okay, like, I'm not going to discount what you're seeing, but I can't answer that from a biological perspective. But if you're talking about a venomous mammal, okay, I have a basis for that. I can think of a few. So, you know, that's kind of how I approach it. It's not immediately writing off. It's not immediately accepting it, but it's just looking at where this fits in kind of the broader scheme of what we know and understand. And it's also looking at why is this important?

Like sometimes I might find that I don't think that the animal they're describing is real, but the story is really important culturally. And this is especially when we go back, you know, back in history or when we go back to other cultures, you know, in developing nations. particularly, where there's a really strong oral tradition, but there may not be as strong, a written tradition, or there's not as much technology around. I'm thinking when I was living with two different pygmy tribes in West Africa, you know, incredibly strong oral tradition, and there's a reason for these stories. So even if there isn't a surviving Saurapod in Cameroon, the story is still amazing and important and one that's worthy of sharing and worthy of looking

into. So that's my approach. Yeah, and it's a great approach. And I would expect that approach from you. And it's really, it's really refreshing. The idea, and I wasn't going to go this direction, but because of what you just said here. So I know you've written six different books now and you released them all this year, which you're a madman. But the one, a living dinosaur, is that the one you just referred to about this? Yes. Okay. what is the legend there versus what you've found? Absolutely. So it's a very hard question to answer because there isn't one legend.

So Mokele and Bembe is the classic what folks think of when they think of a West African dinosaur. But depending on the group that you're with, so primarily this is the Aca people. The Aca people are the Bayaka, the Baca, and other groups as well. And depending on where you are, and they span across borders, so this is the Congo, the Central African Republic, and Cameroon, and other parts of West Africa as well, they will have different names for this creature and vastly different descriptions of it. Some sound more like a triceratops, some sound more like a brontosaurus, some sound more like a smaller kind of maybe theropod dinosaur. So vastly, vastly different legends and experiences. But we, I, I, dug into the classic, the classic, which is supposedly there is a remnant population of sauropod dinosaurs that are still found in the riverways of West Africa. And what I found is that I think it's very unlikely. I did not find any evidence that there are living sauropods. Could there still be large undiscovered creatures in West Africa? For sure. Sure, there could be. Absolutely. But I would

be shocked to find that it was an actual surviving Saurapod. And the reasons for that are the legend is almost a cultural out for the Aca people. So the Aca have these great stories, you know, they really revere strength. Strength and courage are two of the most important things in this tribe. And if you don't want to go down to the river at night because there are crocodiles there, you might be looked at as weak. If you don't want to go out fishing because you've had heavy rainfalls and there are high rapids, you might be looked at as weak. So you can't say that. But if you don't want to go fishing because Mokele and Bembe has been spotted in that river, you're smart guy. Definitely stay home. That's a good move. So it's almost this culturally

accepted way of avoiding really dangerous behaviors that otherwise might get tagged, you might get tagged a coward for trying to avoid these. There was a lot of, I can handle crocodiles. I know, you know, I'm one of the best fishermen out there. I can handle any stretch of river. And then you say, well, but you can't swim. No, no, I can't swim. You're in a dugout canoe that tips over extremely easily.

Yeah. Okay, that, I'm not, I'm not messing that together. And then when you start asking about the actual sightings, the descriptions get really, really vague. And it really becomes more of, these folks have been getting questioned about this since the 1920s, and it almost feels like they know the answers that people are looking for oftentimes. I do believe that this is an important part of their culture. I would never discount that and say that there isn't something that's

being seen, but I did not find the same evidence that others have, I'll say. Yeah, that's interesting. I think I've heard about this whole legend before and stuff, and it does. makes sense that if the culture is surrounding with the idea of strength, you know, and the survivability that you have to live in in these cultures, it makes sense that you have these legends of, hey, there's monsters out there. And it's like, you know, hey, there's a line. Oh, it's just a cat, go. But a monster? Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, you're smart. Definitely. Avoid that. And I found a similar legend in Brazil, which was a way to explain unexpected pregnancies. And there's supposedly a river dolphin called the Boto.

And the Boto occasionally puts on a white suit and becomes a man and impregnates unmarried women. And there's actually Boto is on the birth certificate of some children in the Amazonia region. And it's this thing where it's a culturally accepted, you know, story where you say, oh, I couldn't help it. It's not like, it's not anything that I did. It was the bow toe. And all the parents go, oh, okay, all right, that's fine. You know, your boyfriend John seems like a really good guy.

And I hope even though it's not his, I hope that he'll raise the baby as if it was. So these legends and myths, they do exist across cultures to just explain away things that are uncomfortable or that we don't want to. you know, deal with. Wow. It's almost like an unwritten secret, you know, it's just like, everybody knows, like, deep down the side. We all really know what's going on here. But if you, if you say, go with this. Yeah, it's like, if you say the magic word, it's a get out of jail free card, but do you know the magic word? Yeah, it's, I'm going to soak the dishes. No, the dishes need to soak. It's not that I don't want to do the dishes right now. They need to soak. Exactly. We all accept that. Like, oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll just let it soak for a while and oh, I forgot about it. Right. Right. Yeah. Until you smell it. Culturally accepted. Yes, exactly. Now, you have done some extreme things in your life.

First of all, I think you are a madman for laying in a pit of 200,000 snakes. I'm somebody who avoids snakes at all costs. I do not like them whatsoever. Obviously, you mentioned about when you were a kid, you was a kid. was the kid, you were carrying around a rattlesnake. Yeah. What, has there ever been a fear of this stuff? Or is it just a mechanism that you've, you've been born with?

It was just like, this is like a puppy to me. Yeah. Unfortunately, I even lacked the healthy fear. There is a healthy fear of snakes. There's, you know, you shouldn't hurt them, but you probably should avoid. If you don't know what they are, you should probably avoid them. And I never had that. I just saw them and grabbed them because I was so fascinated and

wanted to know more about them. So that was until I got bitten by a rattlesnake. I was bitten by a neotropical rattlesnake maybe 15 years ago, and I called my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, and she was not very happy with me, and I promised her that I would never freehandle again after that. So now I have that healthy fear. But I've just always been fascinated. I mean, the creepier and crawlier, the weirder, the more that society kind of pushes them away, the more I'm interested in those animals. And that's why I like punk rock, too, I think. But those were the animals that fascinated me. Bats, snakes, lizards, all the creepy crawlies, the deep, deep sea stuff.

And after my cancer experience, I really wanted to show myself more than anyone else that I could still be this person. I could still be Pat Spain, the adventurer, and I could still get out there and do that. So I had this idea that I'd always had this on my list to go up to Manitoba and see the snake dens. It's the largest concentration of snakes on Earth. And if I could, lay down in the pit and just be absolutely covered by snakes. And I called up a couple of my best friends. They agreed to come up and film it. I got permission from the Canadian government.

And I went up and did it for my 32nd birthday. That's wild. That's wild. It was 34 hours driving straight. We got in the car at about midnight. We drove for 34 hours up to Manitoba, camped out. The next morning I laid down in the snakes. the next day I did it again

and then we got in the car and drove home. Wow. That's crazy. That's literally crazy. The smell. The smell is like nothing you could imagine. I sold my car. I sold my car as soon as I got back to Boston.

Yeah. Wow. That was never coming out. So the smell being... Snake. Just snakes. The musk that snakes release. Yeah, I mean, this is...

So they're primarily red-sided garter snakes. So garter snakes that people are very... familiar with. They release a musk as one of their main defense mechanisms. I mean, I've been bitten by everything you can think of. Garder snakes don't really hurt when they bite at all, but the musk is gross. It sticks to you. It smells for a couple days. And I had, you know, a couple hundred thousand of them on me. So yeah, it was pretty funky. So I, speaking of snakes, I, one, I was bitten by one of those garter snakes when I was a kid. And that's what I think gave me my fear of snakes. because I was just, I was like, I don't know, I was probably an elementary school.

And we were, we were catching snakes and putting them in a fish tank. And the fish tank fell over. I picked up one of the snakes trying to save the bigger one, bit me in the corner of my, my hand here. And I was, that was it for me. I was like, this is it. I'm done. Just a visual. But there are some gigantic snakes in the world.

And I remember hearing on Joe Rogan, he was talking with somebody not too long ago. And they talked about somebody, this is a long time ago, but it was like a photo that was being circulated around. I want to say it was an admiral bird, but it may not have been an admiral bird. But they were flying over, I think of a South American country, and there was estimated over a hundred foot snake

that was photographed. Yeah, these are the legends of Cobra Grande. They call it. Cobra Grande is this supposed, you know, anywhere from 60 to 120 foot long snake. That's occasionally spotted in, in Brazil. And I have never seen evidence. It would be from a physiological perspective, this animal couldn't survive today. It's not like our environment isn't conducive to an animal.

It would essentially collapse. It wouldn't be able to thermo-regulate or to, yeah, to eat. It would have a lot of trouble with digestion and a few other biological processes. There are very large snakes. There's been a reward, I think, for the last 50s. years or so, for anybody who can document a snake that's over 30 feet long. And no one's claimed that reward. There are some pretty credible accounts of 32, 35 foot long snakes. I do believe that they're out there. Reticulated pythons in anacondas, reticulated pythons in Asia and anacondas in South America. I think that you will get some that get that big. There have been snakes that have eaten people.

They would have trouble eating you or I. They couldn't really get over our shoulders. But a small, like a child or a very petite adult, yeah, it's happened. It doesn't happen often. We're not their main, you know, source. But it can happen. There are some big snakes.

But Cobra Grande, I think, is a tough sell. What I think is more likely is that there's, it's difficult to have, to show measurement in photos, especially older photos, because you don't really have a point of reference that you can measure against. There's also forced perspective. You know, you hold the fish up to the camera like this, and it looks so much bigger than it is.

So there's been a lot of that, a lot of forced perspective, especially of reticulated pythons recently. And then there's also mating balls. So just like garter snakes around us, anacondas have mating balls that can sometimes stretch for hundreds of feet, where it's actually dozens of males

wrapped around one female. And they'll be partially submerged. So if you see the head on one end and the tail on the other, and it's this writhing, you know, it looks like a snake that's wider than a tree trunk. That's, you know, 100-something feet long. And I think that's the most likely explanation for Cobra Grande.

But still fascinating and still something that I would love to see. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I'll see it in the pictures. I'm good. You're going to go hang out with it and take a nap with it. Yeah, yeah. Just interrupt them while they're in a mating ball. You know, snakes love that.

It can't go wrong. It can't go wrong. That's fascinating. Now, the idea of, you know, something that big, not being able to survive today, even to the dinosaur that we were talking about earlier, I'm hearing things that science is now looking into cloning when it comes to, like, woolly mammoths. And so I would love to have your take on that. But also if woolly mammoth, if they're looking to bring back woolly mammoth, does that mean woolly mammoth and something like that could survive in a habitat of today or they have to create a habitat for it to survive? Yeah, excellent. Excellent. So, yeah, woolly mammoth and thylacines. And I've seen them working on a couple other things,

the dodo, I believe. I think that those are the three that I've seen where they've made the most progress. and they were talking about animals that went extinct pretty recently, and due to humans, mammoths, mammoths and the Dodo were hunted to extinction, and thylacines were killed, you know, by ranchers and other folks, you know, just they were looked at as a pest species. So the environments are still there. The conditions would be right for them to still be alive. We're not talking about something that went extinct millions of years ago, were something, you know, it thawed. thousands, thousands or hundreds in the case of thylacine. So yeah, I mean, there's, there would be, it's a really interesting concept. I have no moral qualms with it. I think it would be really fascinating to see them alive again today. People bring up a lot of ethical concerns with it. The habitats there,

we wouldn't have to do anything different. You know, there's not different oxygen levels on Earth now. You know, some of the giant insects that were around when the dinosaurs were here, you know, they took advantage of a completely different environment than we had. You know, different oxygen levels, different carbon dioxide levels, different, what's it called? Moisture in the air and everything. So it would be really hard to have to have them. They couldn't survive in our environment today. But yeah, these absolutely could. The largest snake that we've ever recorded is a titana boa, Titan boa, something like that. And I believe that they were about 50 feet.

Okay. So it's when we start talking like a hundred foot. And not to say, nature can find a way. So not to say that it's impossible, but what we know of current snake biology, we would not be able to support, you know, a 120 foot long snake. But maybe there's some other biological reinforcement that could happen. I mean, evolution is the great driver and finds ways that you would never have imagined. I mean, who would know that a giraffe has the same number of vertebra that we do?

And it's just, you know, super elongated. So not to say that it's impossible, but from what we know, it would be unique. Sure. If say we had, all right, so when you say that we can't, like some like dinosaurs wouldn't be able to survive in the habitat today because of air and all that stuff, is it to say that it's impossible to bring them back? or it's just we could bring them back, but then they would die shortly after. So I've read some really, really interesting things. So it starts to get into the, you know, I'm a little bit out of my depth when we talk about cloning and we talk about that technology and also paleontology. I'd leave that to guys like Darren and others. But yeah, so the interesting things that I've seen are you need a carrier.

So when you clone something, you need something that's a related species in order to carry it, you know, to create. this. And we don't know a not, I mean, the closest relatives that we'd have are avian birds. And they would be tetheropods. So could we create a dinosaur egg? I don't think that we've done anything

like that yet. We've taken other species and put them into the into one egg, but could we take a dinosaur egg and sort of inject the, you know, zygoat into a ostrich egg shell? Maybe.

I'm sure. I'm intrigued. The problem, though, is that the DNA isn't there. Like, the Jurassic Park is impossible because DNA degrades. There's nothing, there's not enough left. So what I've seen that's really interesting is looking at more reduction, looking at taking an avian, taking a bird, and bringing it back through its evolutionary stages, because potentially all of that genetic material is still there. So is there a way to take a- a pigeon and create, go back in the line of a pigeon to a thousand years before they were the modern day pigeon and get that, and then take that bird and go a thousand years before they were that bird and then take that bird and go. And there is the potential to do that by turning on and off different genes, but it's a little bit of a crapshoot. until we have, even if we have a fully sequenced DNA, we have to know, like, okay, so which gene might control teeth in birds? If we can turn that on, you know, it's been turned off over the generations, but if we can turn that on, we could create a chicken with teeth. What controls scales versus feathers? You know, what controls the scales on their feet that look like what we'd imagine dinosaur scales would look like versus feathers? If we can turn it. tweak that, could their entire body be covered in that? Now we're getting closer and closer to

that theropod. Man, we're creating dinosaurs over here. I love it. Yeah, so that's the interesting thing. And that's where I think that there's a lot of, a lot of future potential with the new technology that we've got in genetic engineering. So to me, it sounds like you're saying more, or less of bringing something back, but more of through our ability to introduce and turn things on and off to create something that could be, it's not, you know, the dinosaur that we know of from the past, but it looks like it and maybe it's pretty darn close. And all of a sudden, somebody slips and it's, it's a lot bigger now that we, than we expect it. And well, here it is. And it's, it's staying. But, so on this topic, I go cloning real quick. I'm, I forget where I saw,

but I think, like, I mean, it's for the rich people, I'm sure, but, like, you, you can like have a pet cloned. Have you heard about that? I have. Yeah. And it's not so it really gets into what defines us. And I was just having this conversation with a couple of good friends of mine of, you know, the nature of consciousness and things. And these are the things we talk about late at night. What defines what this, what this animal is? You know, your pet. I had a 16 year old pug that I loved beyond any reasonable expectations of how much you should love a pug. He was amazing. But how much of that was his genetic makeup and how much of it was the experience that we had raising him from a puppy and influencing what he became as a 16-year-old dog.

And it's really hard to say until you get the same genetic sequence and we have another pug that's the exact same genetically that this one is, but is he going to act the same? you know, nature versus nurture, it probably isn't. So while he may look the same, it's not, you know, there is that nature versus nurture and that gets a lot more philosophical than biological. Yeah, and that actually makes a lot of sense. I just, I think about the, I had a cat once. And we, that cat, he died shortly after my son was born. And he just, he was like a dog. I mean, he wasn't your normal cat. Like he, he would run over to you when you come in the house and he just wanted to be with you all the time. And I often think if I could have cloned him, if I had the money,

would I? And that's something that I've always thought about is, yeah, we have a cat that looks the same, but would he act the same, you know? It would be interesting to find out the answer to that question. I mean, it could get us closer to being able to answer nature versus nurture. I'm sure it's a combination of those, but how much does nature play into it? Well, I mean, this is a fascinating thought then. Maybe we should start pursuing this. I'll start a GoFund me and we'll go dig up the body and start cloning. There you go. Yeah. We'll clone the cat and see. Then you can, in the name of science. Do it in the name of science. In the name of science, you know. But so with these topics of conversations, we were talking about the book and we kind of veered away. But I do want to talk about

this book that you have out called A Little Bigfoot. What is this about? Because you're somebody who looks into these topics when you don't have the answer of something. You don't mind going and asking questions and stuff. So what is this book about, a little big foot? Yeah, this is a Wren Pindek. So Arangandek is a small hominid that's been spotted, you know, for time immemorial throughout Indonesia, particularly in Sumatra, is where we get a lot of these reports from. And I think so I went in there genuinely thinking that this was mistaken identity. thinking more than likely the descriptions that I'd read really reminded me of a given and that this is probably people seeing a glimpse of a given, you know, that's walking on the ground, which they occasionally do, and just having a mistaken identity. And when I got there and I did the investigation, I was wrong. I really do think that a ringpendeck either is still there or was there very recently. And there were a few things that brought me to that conclusion. The first was that the sightings of it were, much better than glimpses. This was not something where someone caught out of the corner of their eye and that they were likely to mistake this for something. These were by incredibly reputable folks, you know, who really know the forest. And in fact, somebody called me out on this and said, like they were laughing and they said, look, the only people who don't believe in a Rangpendek are the people who've never been here. Wow. I was like, good call. Yeah, no, that's true.

Who am I? I'm in your amazing country for, you know, a few weeks. Who am I? tell you you don't know what you're seeing of course you do you're you live here you see this stuff all the time and it was the the kind of blaze way that they described this like this was not a mythical creature this isn't revered this is just an animal that lives there like a tapier or like a um you know like some of the some of the primate species that they have it's there um in fact everyone was shocked that we wanted to talk about a rangpendeck they wanted to talk about tigers because tigers have this kind of other spiritual realm to them. So it's like, yeah, Ringpenneck is cool and all,

but have I told you about the tiger that we saw the other day? So that really led me to think that this truly is real. And then the kind of nail in the coffin was Mike Morwood, who was the person who discovered homo Florisiansis, the hobbit, the small humans that lived on the island of Flores. Mike said that he believed that homofloresiensis had survived up until the modern era. He said that he believed that they were there until the 1920s. And he said, and I said, well, is there any chance that them or a related species could still be here in Indonesia?

He goes, oh, what are there? 17,000 islands? He goes, yeah, of course, absolutely. You know, the amount of unexplored forest here and the amount of habitat for them, absolutely. And the stories really go back. Lauren Coleman describes orangpondek as most likely being, you know, two to three different species that people are seeing and kind of conflating together. And I think there's a good basis for that as well, because the stories really are pretty different.

Like there's the ones that describe more of a H. Floriziensis type, you know, hominid. And then there's ones that describe a more primate-like ground-dwells. you know, primarily upright walking, ground dwelling gibbon-like animal. And I think that there probably are two different things that folks are talking about. And there would be evolutionary pressure for a gibbon or a related species to develop to be more nocturnal and to not use trails and to walk upright. There's evolutionary pressure for all of that. So it would make sense that an animal like that could exist there.

and it could stay hidden. You know, years ago, I mean, this is before I started the podcast. So this is definitely like 2016. I was in a Facebook group. I started a Facebook group and it was about Bigfoot. And I remember there was somebody in that group that was from the area you're talking about. I can't remember now where you just mentioned. But Sumatra.

Simatra, yes. But because he was a local that hunted for the, uh, Arang Pendek. And he would send pictures of footprints he was finding. And I actually had a cast of a footprint that was sent to me. And, uh, I wound up giving it to a kid at a conference when I was speaking. He was like, he really liked it.

I was like, oh, you can have it, buddy, you know? Like, it just sits on my shelf. Yeah, you want to encourage the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but it's something that, it was one of the first times early on in looking in these topics that I felt like for the first time there was there was actual um believability for for a broad audience on this this creature you know

and I felt I think I felt like that because we're not talking about an upright hominid that is massive. We're talking about something that is not that big. And so it's, three or four feet. Right. And so it's like, okay, it could hide from us. And it could, you know, all that stuff where when you're talking about Bigfoot, one of the hardest things that people get around is that you're,

it's like, you're telling me that there is a eight, 10 foot creature roaming around the Pacific Northwest. Right. You know? And, and listen, I dig it. I love it. You know, like I literally just, just last week, I was in Washington State hunting Bigfoot. Like, that's what I did the entire week. We shot a film out there. So, like, I'm all about it, right?

But for the broad audience of people who aren't buying into these topics, it was the first time as like a light ball went on my head. I was like, this might be a good gateway into conversation about these things with people because it has the believability factor. Yeah. Have you noticed that at all? When you talk about crypto zoology and stuff, that there's easier topics to talk to people about?

Oh, absolutely. Yes. So you're completely right. So when you start talking about a ringpin deck, for all of the reasons that you said, first, it's in a really exotic location. It's somewhere that most Americans haven't been. So that that's one place. That's one thing that lends credence immediately. It's not like, well, I've been to Canada. I know that there's nothing up there. And it's like, well, you've been to Montreal. That's a little different. But still. But so there's that aspect of it. There's also. that it isn't huge. It's not massive. It's not supposed to be aggressive. And when you do look at species, you know, like orangutans and other things that, you know, they are much bigger than orangpandec is supposed to be. And they do exhibit some of the,

some of the behaviors of it and things like that. So you start talking about smaller populations that could survive also. Because people are like, well, you know, you can't have thousands of these things out there. And it's like, well, there probably aren't. It's probably a very, very small population that doesn't have a home range,

and they wander, they're very long-lived, so there would be a small number of young, and they're wanderers. So when you start putting all of these together in biological terms, people are more open to it. And I think that's true with most cryptids. When you start talking about the deep ocean, people go, yeah, sure, anything could be there.

You could make up anything about the deep ocean, people are going to go, yeah, I guess that's possible. Because we just don't know that much about it. If you start talking about surviving remnants, like something like the thylacine, you know, that was there pretty recently, I think people are more open to going, yeah, there may still be a couple there. Like what we've found in the community of biologists is that extinction really isn't an event. It's a, you know, it's a process. And, you know, something could be functionally extinct, but they're still surviving. There's still a few there.

and that's possible for Arangpendek as well A lot of the witnesses that we spoke with said My grandparents saw it more frequently My parents saw a few of them I've only seen it once and it was an old one And that's kind of what people say Nobody has seen a young orang Pindek

That they knew of in decades So there could be a few surviving older Remnants of this species still out there And people are more all of this starts to lend the general public kind of goes, yeah, I guess that's more possible. That does make more sense. Yeah, it does make sense. Before we go any further, I'm starting to hear your microphone rubbing on your collar a lot.

Oh, sorry about that. That's fine. I just want to, I don't know if you could just turn it or whatever, but, yeah, you're good. Yeah. It started clacking on there. I started noticing it. I also move around a lot. Me too.

I talk with my hands all the time. but so speaking about survivability, speaking about what's hidden in the oceans, you have, you've got, listen, I'm assuming you've explored the air at some point, but like you roam the land,

you've gone a thousand feet in a three-man ocean or submarine under water. What did you see down there? But, well, let's just go start there. What made you go down there and do that? what did it feel like physically but also maybe psychologically to know that you have that much water above you, I'd be freaking out. It was a childhood dream. It's one of those things that was on my bucket list, one of the things that I've always wanted to do and never thought that I'd be able to just cost and everything else would be prohibitive. And when we were filming an episode on Sea Serpents, our associate producer jokingly mentioned that she had come across a private subcompany. that was operating in the area we were going to be, and they could potentially bring us down in the water.

And I just went, yes, anything I need to do. I will eat nothing but power bars. I will sleep in the car, like anywhere we can cut the budget to make this happen. And they started backpedaling. And we were like, no, no, I don't think we can do this, but I was on it. And from that moment on,

I was just pushing for this to be something that we could do and think about the possibilities it opens. And even if we don't see a sea serpent, what else are we going to see? Eventually, I think I wore them down and got them to do this. So we were able to do it, and it was the coolest thing I've ever done in my life. I mean, you've never experienced darkness like the bottom of the ocean. Just absolute pitch black.

Every animal you see there just looks alien and amazing. And, you know, we saw jellyfish and squat lobsters and squid. And, I mean, things that were known, like known species, but still, just phenomenal. to see them in their own environment and to see, you know, a 20-foot-long jellyfish just free swimming with, you know, all of its tentacles completely. It was amazing, just unreal. Wow. Yeah. I, it's, that's something that I don't plan on ever doing. It's definitely, like, I tend to think that I have an adventurous spirit, but not that much. It's just, there was no fear. There was nothing. I mean, it was just pure excitement and enjoyment. And we

down there for about two hours. And after an hour or so, so it was me, our producer, and the pilot. So just the three of us, and me and the producer are laying on like cots, like little inflatable cots, on our stomachs, and the pilot

is sitting behind us kind of in a crouched position, like using little remote controls like this. And after about an hour, we're just in absolute awe. I just can't believe everything that we're seeing. And then I start feeling water dripping on my legs. And I'm I turned to our producer and I go, are you? And he goes, yeah. And the pilot goes, oh, no. And I was

like, all of a sudden, like, you start to get a hint of fear. And then he starts laughing. He's like, I'm just kidding. It's all just condensation. It's just condensation dripping on us. God, man. Like, I'm spazzing right now. You start talking about the water coming in. Listen, my wife has a huge fear of water. I never thought I did until just now. Holy crap. No thanks. No, thanks. It was pretty It was pretty nuts. I mean, but just the fact that he, we all felt it at the same time. So he knew what we were talking about and why we were freaking out. I'm just kidding.

Yeah, it was condensation. Oh, man. That's wild. Our producers, this guy, Ben, who, I mean, Ben has been everywhere and seen everything. This is a guy, I mean, he was almost imprisoned in Afghanistan for going into a former Soviet chemical weapons facility. This guy has done everything, anything you can think of. And because of that, he's super nice, but like nothing really phases him.

So we were on the Amazon and, you know, there's this beautiful moon, like the biggest moon I've ever seen over the Amazon River. And we're all just on the deck, like, in awe of this. And Ben's writing notes for the next day. And he looks up and goes, hmm, pretty. And goes back to writing the notes. Like, nothing phases him. So when we're down in the sub and just in silent awe, he poked me. And I looked over and he goes, this is cool.

I was like, right. That's how I knew it was really unique. Like, this was actually, this even impressed Ben. Yeah. Wow. That's, that's wild. So when you're down there and you're seeing it all and taking it in, how, now that you've been there, how likely is it that you think there's possibility of either undiscovered, obviously undiscovered species? I mean, tons. But what about remnant of things that we knew we were here a long time ago and maybe it sought to go extinct because we just haven't seen it

but they just lived down there. Yeah, I mean, look at the Selecamp. Selecamp is the perfect example of that. We thought that they were extinct for 160 million years and then they find them in a fish market in Tanzania. And the locals knew about them. The locals had been pulling them up. They weren't very good eating but they'd still sell them on the market.

It's still a really big fish. Yeah, there's absolutely large, undiscovered animals left to find in the deepest part of the ocean. I think even the most conservative marine biologists will own up to that and say that. And it's one of the things that's frustrating about cryptozoology. So the animals that we are the most likely to discover are a new species of bony fish, a new species of squid, or a new species of shark. Those are the most likely. And they may look very different than the fish, squid, and sharks that we're. we know today. But if we found a new species of squid that could explain a lot of the sea serpent

sightings in the world, maybe it has modified tentacles that can look like, you know, a plesiosaur head, maybe they eat birds. Maybe they've evolved to eat seabirds, so they're going to be coming out of the water more often. I mean, there's a lot of this potential. If we found that, biologists like me would love it and would freak out, and this is amazing, but the general public would go, it's a squid. Wow. It's like, oh no, isn't that exciting? So if you don't find the exact animal that people are describing in these legends,

then people say you haven't found the animal. Like if we found a new species of polar bear in Nepal, people would say, that's cool, but it's not a Yeti. And you're like, but it is. Like, why isn't it a Yeti? And that's where cryptozoology kind of diverges a little bit, where you get that anthropology and, you know, myths and legends. mixed in with biology.

Yeah. So, I mean, when we're talking about, like, you mentioned about sharks being, you know, a likelihood of discovering people talk about, I think it's megalodon. Is that what it's? Yeah, the surviving. The giant. Yeah. I mean, I'd find that to be a tough, a tough cell as well just based on.

You were down there, though. You saw how big it is, right? But what would it be eating? So the biggest sharks that we know of, and this is where the biggest sharks that we know of, So we've got, you know, the whale shark, the megamouth shark, and the basking shark. They're the biggest sharks. And they eat krill. They eat plankton.

They eat krill. They eat, you know, the same things that whales eat. So you're like, okay, that makes for a giant, giant shark. Then we look at the other big sharks. We've got a great white. Great whites eat seals and sea lions. So we know where the seals and sea lions are because they have to breathe there. So we're finding those.

You've got the Greenland shark, which is huge and really, really long lived. and it eats fish. So, okay, there's the good candidate. Megalodon doesn't meet those characteristics, though. Megalodon probably behaved more like a great white. So it was so big that it would have been, you know, a fast swimmer, probably in the open oceans and eating other very, very large animals.

It's not eating plankton and krill. So you start to get, we probably would have seen it by now, just based on what it would be feeding on. But a huge shark that's eating plankton or krill, like, you know, Mega Mouths weren't found until the 1970s, and I think we've only found a dozen of them since then. I mean, it's really very, very rarely ever seen. So could there be another shark species like that? Yeah, absolutely. Frilled sharks are deep water sharks that are very rarely seen. And they look super ancient. I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of one of them,

but they almost look eel-like. Could we find another one of those? Yeah. Or another, you know, deep cold water shark like the Greenland shark. Absolutely. Yeah, that's where we're more likely to see Megalodon. Probably not. I gotcha. I would love it, but probably not. Yeah. So I'm not, what I'm about to bring up is like, listen, I don't want to speak for you, but I know you're not, you don't believe that this is an existence today. The Lochness monster, right? So, okay. I did, I did a hunt for the Loch Ness monster. I went to Scotland. Well, tell me about it. It never aired. Oh, it never aired? Well, it's going to air now.

Tell me about it. So it's a beautiful place. Great scotch, great cider, great food. I highly recommend everybody going and checking out Scotland for any reason that you can get there is good to go. I think that the Loch Ness Monster has a lot of history and a lot of people who see what they want to see in many cases. I don't think that there is a Loch Ness monster in how people describe it. Could there be a really long, a really big conger eel, for instance? There's a lot of eels in Loch Ness, lots and lots of eels.

And in fact, more eels than they even thought. They just recently did an EDNA test there two years ago, I think, where they found that the eel population is much larger than they expected. So could there be a really long conger eel that explains some of the sightings? Yeah, that's definitely possible. Could there be a wayward, you know, seal or other pinoped that's made its way into the lock? Sure. Yeah, I would buy that, you know, either by someone introducing it or somehow, you know, getting in there through the little river that feeds it. It's possible.

I think more than likely there are logs that look like the shape of, you know, the neck kind of sticking up. And there are deer that swim. And if you've ever, I've been in the water when a moose. popped up right next to me in the water. And it's terrifying. They are a huge animal. They look weird. People don't expect them to be in the water. People don't expect to see deer in the water. But they do. They swim. So I think there's a lot of other things that it could be. And with it being a fairly isolated, you know, it's massive. It's incredibly deep. But it's not a very diverse ecosystem. There really isn't a lot in it, to be honest. The big, the big, biggest things that that we see in there are salmon and uh and eels. And even in the shallows, there just aren't, it's not, it's not a really nutrient rich environment. So there just isn't the life that could support something like a population of Loch Ness monsters, the way that people describe them. Sure. And so the idea of Loch Ness Monster is something that I don't know.

listen, the Lockness monsters would hook me when I was a child. I mean, I was just like, what? I loved it. Me and my friends were like, we're going to go hunt it. We're going to prove the world to exist. Well, didn't happen. But one of the things that I think about is, and I don't know a ton about

the legend as far as the size of the creature, but could it be possible that it's not in, you know, I always want to say Lake Locke, and that's not the way it goes. It's, Lockness. The lock. But could it be possible that something like that survive at least somewhere like in the depths of the ocean or something like that? Or is it something that the way it was described is impossible for it to survive? Is it one of those environment things again? Yeah, that's one of the tough ones because honestly, if you go back through the history of Loch Ness monster sightings, there isn't one unified description. Like we really didn't get the image that we have of the lock nest monster until very,

very, very recently. People talk about, you know, the priests and saints and, you know, the Catholic Church back in the 16 and 1700s giving these descriptions. But if you actually read them, they're nothing like what we hear of the modern day, Loch Ness Monster sightings. These happen, you know, sometimes miles inland and they're, you know, they're monstrous, but they have no bearing on what we think of, you know, there's no flippers described, there's no long neck. It's, you know, one of them even describes it as being like a deer. So, like, these historical sightings really aren't pointing to the same animal that people think of as the Loch Ness Monster today. It really started in earnest with, you know, newspapers kind of publishing these sightings in the 20s.

And, you know, that's really where we got this kind of kickoff of Monster Mania. Could there be another animal that's similar to how we describe the Loch Ness Monster? So usually this is based on a pleasiosaur. and it's a very tough cell to think that a plesiosaur would have survived to modern era in the way that they existed back, you know, when they were alive. Because ancient marine reptiles like a pleasaur, so I always get corrected, they're not dinosaurs. It's an ancient marine reptiles. They probably hunted in shallow seas in really, really warm water. And they were, you know, fast hunters.

So fast-moving hunters in shallow seas. and that's not something that could hide very well today. So these were not deep sea creatures. These were not, yeah, it's one where it would be, I'd be hard pressed to say that there could be a surviving, even relative of a pleasaur. Okay. Now, we covered this deep ocean stuff.

I don't know if I mentioned it, but you have a book called Sea Serpents, right? And that was one of the books that dropped. I'm going to list all the books in the description of this episode. That way people can find them. But I want to ask you, it's kind of backtracking here. When we were talking about the Rang Pendek, and you brought up the Hobbits. It's something that I wasn't aware of. I didn't know that there was, I guess, documented cases of these smaller people living into the 1920s. Is that what you were saying? No. So we know the homophoreziancy skeleton was dated back. It's actually a really

controversial topic at when the skeleton is from. You know, originally they were saying 10,000 years ago, now they're saying 60,000 years ago, kind of depends on the study that you read. But Mike Morwood, the guy who discovered it, said that he said that he had evidence, and his words were, it's not ready

to be published. But I have evidence that would indicate that they survived up until the modern era, up until the first Dutch colonists came to Indonesia. and so but he unfortunately passed away shortly after that and uh yeah yeah i know it's enter the conspiracies of him being knocked off no unfortunately so he um he and i actually we were both

feeling really sick the day that we met and it turned out for both of us it was the first signs of cancer oh wow and um mike unfortunately didn't survive his but um but yeah it was uh it's really i mean It's sad for him and his family and very sad for the scientific community because he was just such an amazing guy with such a brilliant mind. And to have this discovery and to say the other things that he was working on, you know, the other finds that they were making in the cave systems. And one of the difficulties in that region of the world, particularly dealing with the government in Indonesia, is it's easier to get a film crew in there than a scientific expedition. Wow. Um, classically, a lot of countries have not been treated well by the West. That's, that's not a secret. That is a fact. Um, and they're very distrusting of Western scientists because it's essentially saying, what are you going to take? You know, the, the museums of the world are filled with our artifacts. So what are you going to find and take away from our scientists and take away from, you know, and bring back to your country? And that's not a positive thing. And they're really, isn't a good response to that.

But the unfortunate thing is the local scientists are not as well-funded or able to launch the type of expedition that a Western scientist could. But at the same time, you don't want to steal someone's culture or their history or, you know, take a massive, you know, worldwide discovery out from under the local scientists. So it's a really hard balancing act. That's why sometimes TV is the easiest way to get in there and do it. Enter you. Yeah.

Yeah. So has anybody, I mean, I'm assuming, because I didn't realize that you were, that you knew him so well, has, has anybody tried carrying the torch of that work? Yeah. So actually, the, the company that I was working with, we tried to get another expedition launched almost immediately after I got back and tried to work with some of the, you know, some of the other members of the crew and other things like that. It's just logistically became impossible. Wow. And, and, And there are others who have carried on his work for sure, but I don't know the direction that they've taken nor have had any contact with them. Wow.

Wow. I'm very interested because when you brought this whole thing up, it's a topic that I've found. I go in spurts and waves. You know, when I started the podcast, I was really into the Bigfoot. And that's like the forever for me, you know? But like I go through seasons where I'm more interested in certain topics. And when I moved to Tennessee, the. legends of the little people was something that I was hearing about in the Smokies. And I was like,

this is interesting. And so when you brought the whole thing up, I was thinking, man, is there some kind of validity to the idea that a long time ago at least, little people, like little tiny people thrived in this area. We know they did on Flores. We know they did. Homo Florizianis was a human population of little people. Yeah. So why couldn't they be elsewhere? Yeah, I mean, whenever you talk about an isolated population, you start to get into, you know,

they call it island gigantism or island dwarfism. And it's hard to say why one species goes one direction and one species goes another. But in Indonesia, there were tiny elephants that lived there at one point two that had, you know, that showed island dwarfism. When you start talking about the deep ocean, You get this gigantism where an isolated population will suddenly get absolutely massive.

So the smokies are such an interesting part of the world and had been so geologically isolated for so long that if there was a population of early humans that had gotten in there and had become isolated, there's every chance that they could have shrunk, essentially. That's incredible. I mean, pygmy tribes in West Africa, the ones that I was with, there was. a lot of, you know, they were, they, there were very few pure pygmies that we were able to see. And they were more wanderers into the forest, whereas the villages were, you know, a different, unfortunately, there's a lot of stigma associated with that. And there's a lot of racism associated with being, you know, from one of these tribes. So they try to assimilate as much as possible. But the few, true, absolute, you know, pure, 100% members of this tribe that

we saw. It was striking. I mean, they were tiny. Like, at first glance, I really thought that they were children. And then you get up close and see, you know, stubble and see like the teeth and the wrinkles and everything. You're like, oh, my God, that's like a 50-year-old. Wow. That's, yeah, that's incredible. You mentioned, and listen, I know I said we're going to go an hour. We're at an hour now. If you got a few minutes, I got a couple more questions for you. Sure. Okay. You mentioned about the island, dwarfness. Dwarfew. and gigantic, gigantism, have you heard about the giant bones dug up on Catalita Islands? I have. Yeah. Is that? I have. And I mean, it's one of those where I haven't seen the evidence.

I've heard the stories and then I've read the accounts from the time and they don't exactly mesh up exactly right. And how much of that is, you know, it's been lost over the year. or there was, you know, other information that was used to disguise this information that was originally found. So the, the idea. I think we lost him. Is he there? It is. Are you still there? Oh, no. You're cutting it. You're cutting in and I'm barely hearing you. I'm not sure what happened there. There we go. Cool, cool. All right, we're back. I don't know. I don't No, but you're good and clear now.

So we were talking about the Catalia Islands and you just kind of got cut off there. So if you want, just go ahead and maybe just give a summary of what you were just saying the last 30 seconds or something. Sure, yes. So giants are a fascinating topic. And one, I think it was covered by a series on either Discovery or Nat Geo. I can't remember which. But I thought they did a really good job of presenting all of the evidence from, you know,

throughout America, North America. And there's nothing biologically that would say that this is impossible. So I'd be interested in seeing more evidence. What I've seen hasn't been incredibly compelling to say that this is that I'm absolutely in this camp and think, but it's certainly worth more investigation. Perfect. All right. So on that note, it's encouraging to hear you say that, too, by the way, because I'm fascinated

by giants. and I'm like, listen, my job is to do podcasting. And so it's one of those things where this is what I'm heavily invested in. And now we're doing films and we're going out hunting these monsters. So I'm starting to become more and more heavily invested in the idea of dipping my toes in the waters of trying to not discover scientifically because I'm not a scientist. I'm just a dork with a podcast. But just like, you know, hey, look what I found, you know.

Yeah. On that note, as a wildlife biologist who does cryptozoology as well in a scientific manner, if somebody were to dig up bones that were very large, what would that person do at that point? Shout it from the rooftops. Put it immediately live stream and get it on every social media platform that you can imagine. And yeah, I mean, just absolutely shout it from the rooftops, get everyone to pay attention to this and get it documented immediately that this is there and then have scientists come and take a look and, you know, keep photographing it, keep everything on so that there can't be any questions afterward of it was swapped out for this or that's not what I sent them or anything like that. Yeah, I mean, we have all the technology now in this country to fully document everything. So I would immediately. turn the camera onto live mode and here's what I got. It's in the ground. Check it out. Yeah. Yeah. If that happens for me, I would be doing what you did with the snakes. I'd be laying

down next to it. Like, see, look how big this thing is. You know, because it's documented how big I am. You know, and so I bring this up because I love chasing legends. And I recently, and I just mentioned this on my members episode today. I haven't talked about this publicly. So the people listening right now, this will be a public episode and they'll hear it for the first time. I have come across a guy who came across a fantastic story about this big foot creature that was tormenting a family back 65 years ago. They left the property. It was a farm. They left the property. Came back a year later. It was still there. Long story short, they killed the thing and they buried it. Now, he was told, he was told that they marked the grave with two stones and they planted sapling trees.

And as they grew, they twisted them together to show where this was. He found trees twisted together in the area that he was told it was at. And he sent me pictures of those trees. And he's like, when are you coming to dig it up? And I'm like, I'm on my way. You know? And so I'm hoping in the next few weeks I can schedule time to take me, my brother and some guys that I already have in the location and go and start digging. But I've also been told

they like, be careful. If it's a human that you're digging up. And that's why I've come to the conclusion that I'm just like, if I find bones, I'm going to take tons of pictures and then I'm going to call authorities and do the proper thing. But I'm going to take pictures and I'm sending them everywhere, just like you mentioned. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. There are, there's some really cool ground penetrating radar that you can use to show if that area has been disturbed, even to show, and if they're, I mean, they probably didn't put it in the casket, but it would be able to show the gap if it was in a casket also. But if there's something big buried down there, this ground penetrating radar, even without breaking the ground, even without doing anything, would,

show that. And I would record the entire process from before the shovel hits the ground until you've found whatever it is that's under there. Yeah. How much would ground penetrating radar go for these days? I have no idea. I've only rented it. And it was the production company that was paying for it. I'm asking, out of sincerity, do you happen to know a company that I could look at to rent the ground penetrating radar?

I do. Yeah, absolutely. I can send you, I've got your phone number. So, yeah, I can send you them. That'd be great because I went home after this guy told me the story. and I told my wife, and she just looks like, when are you going? You know? Yeah.

We're in a funny transition period here where I am, I'm now settling into this new career I have, and I'm also exploring more of expansion. And so I'm starting to be this adventurer guy where I'm going out looking for these things. And she's like, okay, we're talking big foot bones. Tony's going. That's awesome. Yeah, no, that's great. I want to know all about it, man.

Give me a call. Let me know what you find. Brother, listen, you are. one of two wild life biologists that I know and I have their number now. So like, I'll keep in touch with you for sure. You find something. I'll be out there. Yeah, for sure. I need any brains out there with me. I'm just the guy that's like, hey, we're going to go do stuff and I get people to follow me and do crazy stupid stuff sometimes. That's awesome. Yeah. But listen, is there anything that you would like to promote as far as way people can contact you, reach you, follow you on social media or anything like that before we get out of

here. Pat spain.com is my website and you can Pat Spain on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active. I know I have other social media accounts, but I'm not very active on them. It's really Instagram's the only one that I use too much. And the books can be found at any local bookstore or on Amazon. And it's the name of the series is on the hunt. So it's six books and it's on the hunt in British Columbia. On the Hunt in, yeah, so they're all different on the hunt is the series. So if you just Google, on the hunt with Pat Spain, you'll find them all. That's awesome. Congratulations on all the books, on all your success with the traveling the world. I honestly, I don't want to say I aspire to be you because I definitely don't want to be a biologist, but I aspire to be an adventurer like you,

and you are Indiana Jones, you know, and I love it. So it's fantastic. Thanks so much, man. I can't wait you hear about this Bigfoot. Well, potential Bigfoot. We'll see. Right, right, right. How always. It might just Farmer John and his wife killed him 65 years ago and called it a big foot to stay out of jail. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, man, I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun.

Thank you. Well, that's a show. Everybody, I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did enjoy it, please share the show with your friends. I don't care where or how you share the show. Just share the show if you enjoyed it. Also, go ahead and check out Pat's books. The links are in the description of this episode.

Go ahead and check them out. Enjoy them. I had a great time talking to Pat. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. And until next week, friends, stay safe, take care, and remember the truth was set you free. But first, it'll piss you off. Bye. According to them, trapped an encryption just trying to ascend.

Blending not sure if what I'm not sure.