The Confessionals - 762: From Warlock’s Curse to Holy Fire

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Please pray for Tony's wife, Lindsay, as she battles breast cancer. Your prayers make a difference!If you’re able, consider helping the Merkel family with medical expenses by donating to Lindsay’s GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/b8f76890Description:In episode 762: Holy Spirit: God Within You, Tony is joined by author and evangelist David Diga Hernandez, whose life has been shaped by the Holy Spirit. From shadow figures and whispered voices to a warlock in his family line, David shares how generational darkness targeted him from childhood. But it was a hotel room prayer at age 11 that shattered the grip of fear and introduced him to the overwhelming presence of Jesus. What followed was a journey through spiritual deserts, battles with striving, and the discovery that the Holy Spirit isn’t earned—He abides.Tony and David dive into the layers of deliverance, the deception of performance-based faith, and why Gen Z is being pulled between witchcraft and revival. This conversation cuts to the heart of spiritual warfare and reveals how true freedom comes not from formulas, but from surrender.David Diga HernandezWebsite | YouTube | New BookBecome a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZMy New YouTube ChannelMerkel IRL: @merkelIRLMy First Sermon: Unseen BattlesSasquatch and The Missing Man: merkelfilms.comMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelProduced by: @jack_theproducerOUTRO MUSICJoel Thomas - BetterYouTube | Apple Music | Spotify

Everybody, before we get to this week's show, I just want to remind you that my wife is fighting breast cancer. So please continue to keep her in your prayers. We thank you very much. We're feeling your prayers. Please continue to pray for my wife, Lindsay, and complete healing in her body in the name of Jesus. Merkel. This was all circulating around the base that a giant had to kill, but no one was supposed to talk about it. I saw three long.

bony fingers reach up underneath the door curl up to grab it and then disappear when he came over to me dude he slithered over to me and this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen and he starts running and firing at this giant with a giant moves he's got a spear in one hand and he's running really fast and spears dan holds him up like this somebody else shoot him in the face Shoot them in the face. They basically decapitated. And I look over and there are two. I'm getting pulled off the bed.

I reach my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and it couldn't move because I know I'm seeing a monster. Welcome to the show, everybody. Listening to the Confessionals Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Merkel. Thanks for being here. If you have a crazy wild experience, you want to share with me on the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is Contact at theconfessionalspodcast.com.

That's contact at the confessionalspodcast.com. or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com, hit the contact section, and you can reach me that way as well. Other way it works for me. Just get a hold of me. If you want more shows on a weekly basis, we got you covered. Go to the confessionalspodcast.com slash join. Become a member. You'll get access to extra shows every week that we house inside our members' social media network. We have our own social media app that's exclusively available to members only of the confessionals. You get that social media network plus all the extra content. right there in the social media network when you become a member to the confessionalspodcast.com.

Go ahead and check it out today. Now, today we have David Diga Hernandez coming on the show. This is somebody who I've been anticipating talking to. He is actually one of my most favorite biblical teachers. And he comes on today to talk about his new book available today, June 3rd Everywhere, Holy Spirit, God Within You. And this conversation starts off with his childhood experiences being tortured, by demonic entities and how that stems from generations before where a great, great grandfather

was a warlock in Mexico. These kind of things tend to push people down certain roads. And he kind of blueprints how he got to where he is today from his childhood experiences. Let's get to David right now. All right. Today we have a special guest, David Diga Hernandez. How are you, sir? I'm doing well, my friend. Thanks for having me on. Listen, I would like to spend a moment here before we dive into some of the things. Your book coming out here, actually, when this episode drops, it will be the day that your book is released on June 3rd. Perfect God. Absolutely.

The book is called Holy Spirit God Within You. I wanted to get that off the top here. But I wanted to kind of let people know because, you know, my audience is very diverse. And I want to let the audience know a little bit about you from my person. perspective. And I shared this with you at NRB, and I just want to let people know. So I went to Bible College about 20 years ago, Assembly of God College up in Philadelphia area. And I roomed with a bunch of Calvinists, though. And so I had a very, I had this like blend of theologies. And one of the guys that they introduced me to was John Piper. And

And John Piper, for anybody who, you know, whatever your perspective and opinion is on his theology, I don't think there's a whole lot of people who can say that he's not a good teacher. He's extremely articulate. And when you hear him speak, you listen, but you grasp. And I have known of you, but the first time I ever heard you speak in person was at armed media conference. And, and, you know, I have known of you, but the first time I ever heard you speak in person was at armed media conference. And I remember sitting there in the front row and you're speaking. And it was apparent that every word you spoke was thought about and was guided. And it really struck me as I started going through more of your teachings that you have that kind of ability to teach in a way where it grabs people. And it also informs them. And they're really they're actually learning while they're hearing you teach. And so I don't know if that means anything to anybody else, but for me, when I started looking at you and thinking, you're pretty much like

the non-Calvinist John Piper. I was like this is, and that's how I view your teachings. It's extremely thorough and deep. So I'm really glad to have you on today. Well, that's a very kind encouragement. Thank you so much. Absolutely. So with your book, you kind of dive into some of the early childhood things. And I'd like to explore that because with my audience, you know, throughout the years, I mean, we've been, we're coming up on, I think, 800 episodes. I mean, we've had a lot of people on the show where we've talked about their experiences with the supernatural realm and what that was like from different perspectives. And I'm not sure if this was before or after you came to Christ, but you did have demonic torment.

going on in your childhood. And I wouldn't mind if you could start there because I think that's probably a good launching pad as to, you know, how you went from that to experiencing the Holy Spirit as you teach it. But I also understand that there's a history there with even your, the generational side of things with, I think it was a grandfather or great-grandfather. Yeah, my great-great-grandfather. He was a warlock from Zacatechus, Mexico.

and it was said that he was able to cure the sick, so people would often bring him their sick. And he could put curses on your enemies for you if you paid him a fee. There were other reports of him being able to do certain things. I don't really mention those in the book because to me, I don't know if there's even verifiable, but in one instance, there was this story of him being able to call out this orb of fire from the sky. And I don't recall actually if it was something he did more than once, but I at least know of one instance that they had said he was able to do that. And just very strange demonic phenomenon would follow this man. And so I truly believe that demonic powers strategize generationally. And I want to be very,

very careful with the way I say this because I know that when the term generational curse is used, it can take on various different meanings depending upon who's using it. So I want to acknowledge, first and foremost that demonic powers do strategize against families. They absolutely, I mean, why, I mean, why wouldn't they? They're highly trained spiritual assassins who are out to destroy people's faith. And it would make sense that what works on the father would work on the son. What works on the mom would work on the daughter. And so I'm sure they use similar attacks based on DNA, genetics, based on upbringing based on culture, mindsets that get passed down. And so I'm careful to call these conditions in which these families live, because if I use the term curse, which I understand

to some degree, it implies fatalism in that I am doomed to repeat that mistake until and only if I can unlock some spiritual mystery. Now, if that is the definition of what we mean by generational curse. I stay away from that generation, that definition personally. But if by generational curse, someone means the demon strategize generationally, that I think is a little closer to what the scripture would reveal. Now, for me, there was this generational attack in the family. And I believe it began with my great, great grandfather, that warlock from Zacatech, Mexico. And so even as a boy, I was very aware of the battle for my soul. I could sense almost as if hovering just above my head this conflict between light and darkness, good and evil, angels and demons. And as a boy, I was tormented,

and I do mean severe demonic torment. I would hear whispers. I recall a couple of instances where I would be riding my bike and I would stop because I would listen for the whispers. Even at night, There were instances where I heard whispering voices in my room. In one instance, I rolled over. I remember vividly, I remember rolling over and looking into the center of the room where there was this couch there and three old ladies looking at me, looking at me, talking to each other about me and whispering. And I knew this was a demonic assault. Even as a boy, I could tell it was evil. I would see faces in the walls.

I would have horrific tormenting nightmares where these faces. As I'm lying down, I would see these very vivid demonic beings coming closer to me. You know, sometimes when you're thinking or imagining it's faint and it's fuzzy, but these were very clear. I can make out the details in the faces. In fact, there were a few instances where I would actually speak with demonic entities. Now, I'm not saying this to boast. I mean, as if that's something to boast about.

I'm saying, this is just the reality of what I was facing. And I like sharing this because I don't want anyone. to get the impression that I'm a super Christian who just has this special relationship with the Holy Spirit just because I'm special. No, it's exactly the opposite. I was in deep darkness, heavy torment, again, hearing voices, very anxious, visions and dreams of hell, and it was tormenting. And this started when I was seven years old. So seven, eight, nine, ten, finally at the age of 11, I want to give my life to Jesus. And I realized that the one I had, had heard about in Sunday school, at church, at school, I went to a Christian school, I realized,

okay, this right here, this, I need this. I haven't, I haven't experienced the real thing. And for someone who grew up religious, it's difficult to admit. Because in order to experience the real thing, you have to admit that what you had was a counterfeit. And that took the swallowing of my pride, the removing of my ego. And I did. I said, okay, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, was just so done with the torment. So I remember I told my dad I wanted to give my life to the Lord and he begins to lead me in this prayer. And to this day, it's still looking back on it. I recall it as this profound, life-changing moment where I'm sitting there in a hotel room on the edge of the bed, my father's sitting across me on the other bed, holding hands. And as he begins to lead me in this

prayer, I was so overcome with love and joy and peace like bursting from within, like euphoric, bursting from deep within to where I couldn't even get the words out. I'm calling on the name of Jesus. My mouth is shaking. I could feel the warmth of my tears falling down my face. And I'm just thinking in my mind over and over, I'm going to meet Jesus. That Jesus that I heard about. that Jesus that I've been taught about, that Jesus that someone who spoke about, that Jesus that my parents always share,

I'm going to meet him right now. And it was as if the Lord himself walked into the room. And the moment he walked in, every demonic power ran out. Now that's not to say, because it's easy to tell a testimony like that and say, and then he lived happily ever after. That's just not the reality of it.

Because there's still spiritual warfare. There's still the process of sanctification. which is God perfecting you. There's still degrees of deliverance. And when I say deliverance, I'm talking about deliverance from self, deliverance from mindsets, deliverance from deception, deliverance from temptation. There's all sorts of deliverances that we have to experience.

And so now I'm walking through this, and I hit this spiritual momentum. Where I'm having these encounters with the Holy Spirit. I'm praying and experiencing glorious moments of worship. the Lord begins to connect me with powerful mentors. And I'm beginning to read the Bible, dozens of chapters. Today I'm watching Christian television,

reading Christian books. My dad was the pastor. So whenever we had a guest evangelist or guest prophet, I would go out to lunch and I would just pester these people with questions about the supernatural, about the prophetic, about healing, about deliverance. And I'm just,

I'm like a sponge. I'm soaking it all in. And I felt like God was right in front of my face. Like if I held my hand right here, that this would be as close as God is. And then all of a sudden, from seemingly nowhere, I felt like I hit this brick wall in the spirit. And the momentum stops. And immediately, I begin to reach again from my religious solutions.

And I begin to question, God, did I upset you? God, did I make you angry? Did I say a wrong prayer? Did I not pray enough? did I not read enough chapters of the Bible today? There's my performative thinking. I'm thinking that I have to check off a list to earn the presence of God.

And so this right here puts me in a bind. I'm frustrated. I'm scared. I don't sense that glory resting on me like I had before. And so I make a determination that I'm going to have an encounter with the Holy Spirit. And I'll be honest with you, Tony. I had no idea what I was even looking for. I knew I wanted something, but I didn't know what that something was.

I knew I needed to get back somewhere. I didn't know where that somewhere was. I don't know the way. So I locked myself in my room. And I said, Lord, I'm not leaving here until I have an encounter in your presence. Okay? I'm praying, seeking the face of God. And I'm thinking in my mind, surely much time has passed by now.

I thought maybe I was closing in on that first hour. I look at the clock, maybe five minutes, 15 minutes had gone by. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm really in for it now. And so I pray and one hour goes by and nothing happens. And here's the thing about prayer. You can worship, you can dance, you can sing, you can serve, you can even read the word. And that squirming that you sense in prayer is not there. But the moment you begin to pray, the flesh starts to squirm.

Why? Because prayer is the death of the flesh. And so I'm praying there and that first hour, nothing. So now I say, I'm going to reach for God with my emotions. And I begin to trying to guilt God into a response. Lord, don't you hear me? God, don't you love me? Lord, aren't you there? Nothing. I'm forcing out tears. I'm hyping my emotions. And I was trying to make up for an emotion. what I lacked in faith. Noise does not equal power. That hour goes by, my emotions failed. Okay, now I'm approaching the third hour. I say, okay, I'm going to reach now for the aggressive kind of prayer. I'm going to war in the spirit. I'm calling down angelic hosts.

I'm praying the bloodline of Jesus. I'm rebuking demonic entities. I don't care if they're real or not. I'm taking adjectives, attaching a lot. them to demons and rebuking it, the spirit of this and that, and I'm trying to fight my way through spiritual warfare into the presence of God. Third hour goes by. None of my techniques worked. Nothing happened. Fourth hour comes. I get theological. I'm going to now try to figure my way into the presence of God. What have I read of the glory? The Greek, the Hebrew, the special calendars.

Maybe there's some special alignment I need to have. Maybe there's some special prayer to recite. intellect failed. It's not by power, nor by might, but by my spirit, saith the Lord. Now I gave up. I was so frustrated, I said, Lord, I don't know how to pray. I don't know how to find Jesus. Please help me find Jesus. Lord gave me some instructions I obeyed, and with my hands lifted and my eyes closed, at first glancing around the room, but then just being still. I began to sense the atmosphere in my room change. And Tony, it was as if the creator was pressing onto the creation to where the air thickened.

And it was as if the light waves themselves were bending in response, standing at attention to the glory of God. the color tone even slightly shifted. I go back to closing my eyes. I didn't want to move. And there, standing with my hands lifted eyes closed, I began to feel pulses of electric currents moving up and down my body. Like a heat enveloping me.

And I began to again fill that love, that joy, that peace, bursting from deep within John 738, out of your innermost being shall flow river. of living water, and that began to flow out of me. My room became a piece of heaven on earth. It was as if someone had taken my room and lifted it to a high place. And I thought that if I were to open my eyes, I would see Jesus staring right back at me. So I didn't open my eyes because I thought it might startle me out of the experience. That was my thinking. I didn't want to move my hand because I thought I might fill it brush against his robe. That's how real the presence of Jesus

became to me in that moment. It only lasted for a few minutes, but had I sought it for 100 years, every minute would have been worth it. Now, some people hear this story, and they say, oh, I get it. If I want to encounter God, I need to pray for four hours,

and then he'll show up. It's the exact opposite of what I'm telling people. The moral of the story is not, well, David prayed for four hours, so God finally moved. The moral of the story is, it took me four hours to realize I couldn't do it on my own. It took me four hours to realize that I didn't have the answers.

It took me four hours to go from striving to surrender, from begging to believing. And finally entering with boldness and confidence, not in my performance, but what Christ had done. It was no begging, no pleading, just trust, just faith, just expectation. And it was from then on that the Lord began to teach me. that the Holy Spirit is not a reward for the super spiritual. He doesn't come and go based upon our performance. He abides with us. He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.

And out of that union comes everything else. We don't pray for union. We pray from union. We don't pray to connect. We pray from connection. And that is one of the messages I pray. the body of Christ would capture, not just to know the Holy Spirit as a person, as a friend, as someone who abides with you, but to recognize that he abides faithfully, consistently.

And he doesn't abandon us just because we make mistakes. He doesn't abandon us just because we missed the day of prayer. He doesn't abandon us because we didn't meet our quota of scripture, not to excuse our wrongdoing or compromise, but to help us get it right. And it was from then on, I realize I can rest in him abiding. And when I feel him, it's not that he's coming closer. It's that I'm becoming more aware of his presence by faith. All right. Let's take a second to talk about our sponsor today, which is Simply Safe. You know that moment at night when you're locking up the house, turning off lights, and you just want to feel completely safe before you go to bed. I get the same feelings when I leave

the studio with Simply Safe. It's not a worry. I used to actually. lock the doors, lock the doors to the building, and then head to my truck and then walk back to the building, unlock the door to the building to go and make sure I lock the building or the office door to the studio and then relock everything. And I would do that sometimes two or three times because I was so paranoid. It wasn't until we finally got simply safe in the studio that I was able to actually start living more freely and save some time as well. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in. That's too late, though. Simply Save's new active guard outdoor protection helps stop break-ins before they happen. The AI-powered cameras, live monitoring agents,

detect suspicious activity around your property, and then they notify the police, and they're able to stop these burglars before they even enter your home. The best home security system of 2025 by CNET, that would be simply save. Four million Americans trust Simply Safe, and you should to visit simplysafe.com slash confessions to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplysafe.com slash confessions. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. That's very profound. You know, when I, when I first, I went through different seasons of my life and I went through a pretty rough patch post-marriage and I found myself, long story show, I found myself at a funeral.

It was the first time I had been in a church in years. And I was not, I was not happy about it. And then to even put icing on the cake, my wife's uncle, he gets up and he starts preaching the gospel. And it was one of those services that was very, I don't know how to describe it, it was very, ritualistic. There wasn't a whole lot of preaching. And he gets up and he basically had the attitude. He even said, he said, if nobody else is going to do it, I'm going to do it. And he just starts preaching the gospel. And there was this fire in me where I, like, my blood pressure started rising. And I was getting

angry. And I was like, man, nobody asked you to do this. Why are you doing this? I don't want to hear this. I didn't come here for that. Like, you're going to a funeral. I didn't come here to hear the gospel. And in the, in the middle of my anger, for the first time of my life, and I was raised in church, but for the first time my life, I'd never experienced this before. It was like God removed every piece of creation out of my line of sight, and he just zeroed in on me. And at the time, I was a truck driver and other truck drivers that had been around in the industry for 25, 30 years, were telling me how nasty of a person I was. And I was like, I don't want to be a mean guy.

I don't want to be a mean guy. So I was trying to become a nicer guy on my own. And I felt the Lord said to me in that moment, you don't need a change to come to me, just come to me and I'll change you. And it was like one of those moments where it was so overwhelming that I just, I couldn't imagine turning my back to that. I say, nah, I'm good.

And that was like a moment for, me where it was like God entered the room, right? And, and it's similar to what you described, I had an experience where, and I would like for your commentary on this, I was, you know, I have evangelistic heart. And so I was sharing the gospel with people I would, I would deliver to and things like that. And I would go to consistent places over and over again. and this one guy I was talking to, and he was sharing me his life story, and we get up to the most up-to-date part, and I said, well, what are you going to do now? And he said, I don't know, I'm going to probably blow my brains out. And I was like, whoa. And so I just said, man, you don't

want to do that. God's got plans for your life. And when I said that to him, like a switch turned on his head. And he started acting like he never heard of God before. And so I, he invites me to his house that Saturday to talk to him about Jesus and all that stuff. I said, yeah, I'll do that. And I go to his house and this story takes a maybe a little bit of a darker turn. I spent three hours of the guy's house. Turns out he was actually a practicing Satanist and was pretending to not know about God because he wanted to do a number on me. And I didn't know anything about this stuff. This is before I do the podcast. Like, I didn't know anything. And he gets a out this, a pile of books that were satanic literature and he's pretending that he wants me to

take it out of his house for him. There was a lot of things that went in this encounter. But one of the things was that he repeatedly touched me in a very weird way. And I didn't understand that time, but as time was going on, I really believe he was trying to release demonic entities on me. Oh, wow. I left that house feeling different, though. And in my, in the morning time, I would wake up and I start reading my Bible. And I just started feeling like this gap. Like, I wasn't feeling the Holy Spirit speak to me like he was. And I was waking up in the mornings feeling revelation almost consistent.

Like I was getting going downstairs. I'm like, okay, here we go. And it was just this amazing Holy Spirit-driven journey that I was on for very long period of time to overnight silence. And I was like, Like you said, did I do something wrong? Like, I don't know what changed here, but something changed. And I didn't do what you did. I actually went a different direction.

Like, I never walked away from my faith. But I remember the one morning I closed my Bible. And I, like, I didn't say it out loud, but I knew my heart, I'm not, I'm not waking up tomorrow morning to come down here and talk to myself. And it just started this like, this spiritual desert that I went on for. for a while. And to bring it around full circle to what I actually want to bring up here, because you mentioned about deliverance, I was at our media this past year. You and I were there. And after the first day, there was a guy who came up to me and he said, hey, with the things that

you do on your show and the things that you talk to and the people you talk to, do you ever have any spiritual conflict? Like, is there ever a spiritual attack? And usually, because God called me into this, and I don't know who this person is. I'm like, no, man, God called me and do what I'm good. It's fine. But I, like, I was, it was really weighing on me. I had a lot of things going on. And I said, yeah, I said, actually, I've been made aware that there's two witches

coming after me and my family right now. And he steps aside and he introduces me to his friend who is a deliverance pastor. And he said, this is my friend Rob. And he said, I want to pray a prayer of impartation on you that the Lord gives you eyes to see and ears to hear the attack before it comes. And listen, I, I, I can honestly tell you that when he prayed for me, there was a, it wasn't physical, but there's like the spiritual weight lifted off.

And, and like within the next 24 hours, I realized I haven't felt this good since that day I went to that guy's house and started this, this weird journey that I went on. And obviously, like, I mean, my faith, like, I don't know how to describe it. I went through a spiritual desert, but the actions of it, I just persevered. It kept pushing, kept pushing, kept pushing. But it's like over time, you don't even realize you're carrying something until it's gone. Yep. And that's like when you brought up the idea of deliverance, I don't know if what I went through

that day would be considered a deliverance, but I do feel like something had its teeth in my shoulder. And after that guy prayed for me, that was gone. And it allowed me to operate in a different capacity. As I mentioned, even at the beginning of the interview, there were layers that the Lord had to bring deliverance for. And I make a delineation between various different types of deliverances. Like, if you're healed, technically, that's deliverance from a sickness. If you're sanctified, technically, that's deliverance from sin. If you're disciplined, technically, that's deliverance from self. If you come to know the truth, that's deliverance from deception.

So there are various different forms of deliverance. I think there's more of a spectrum. So sometimes we kind of just throw it all in one. So we go immediately, all deliverance would fall under the category of what we would specifically call exorcism. But that would be an entirely different type of deliverance. So I would say that all exorcisms are deliverance, but not all deliverance is exorcism. So yes, definitely Christians experience demonic attack. And what I like to say is that

in moments like those, you'll notice that there's this faith that comes upon you when you receive the prayer. There's this faith that comes upon you when someone speaks encouragement like that. And so you'll notice that whatever you put your faith in gains power. And so sometimes I tell Christians, not all the time, not in every instance, but I tell them, you know, you can skip everything else and go right to the believing part, believing that you have the freedom, believing that you're whole. And that really is the power of a curse. That's the power of witchcraft. It's the mindset that it causes you to fall in because what you think is what you feel. What you feel is how you behave. How you behave becomes your habitual patterns. And so when we come into this agreement

in our minds to where we go and believing in that power, that exaggeration of demonic power, that intimidation is really the, how shall I say, the holding point for any type of curse is that belief in it. And so that's where the Holy Spirit with you brought deliverance. And there was this real breakthrough that came. And I myself have experienced times like this. And I think this is important that we talk about this because the misconception is that if I have the Holy Spirit, I'll never struggle again. Or if I have the Holy Spirit, I'll never be deceived again. Well, think about it.

all temptation is a form of deception. All torment is a form of deception. All negativity is a form of deception. And Christians can fall into that, certainly. That's why Paul the apostle writes in Ephesians about putting on the armor of God. And it's important that we engage in that way. And this is where the Holy Spirit helps us. Because the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. Jesus said, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. That means that if there's a bondage, then there's a truth I've not yet accepted or come to believe. And that's where the Holy Spirit abides, reminding you of who you are, reminding you of the power that you have, reminding you of who you are in Christ. And this is where the battle really is.

Spiritual warfare is the fight to believe God's truth over the enemy's lies. And so definitely, this can be a point of warfare. This can be a point of contention where the enemy is attacking the mind. The enemy's coming against us. But the Holy Spirit is the one fighting on our behalf. And that's where I think the real solution is because, in fact, someone just asked me today, they were asking me about rebuking principalities and this idea that we have to be careful about how we address demonic beings. And to some degree, that is biblical. So I don't want to be completely dismissive of that idea. But the question has to be asked in whose power are we operating? It's the Holy Spirit's power. So then if it's not in my power, the question then becomes whose power is stronger

than that of the Holy Spirit. Well, no one. And so it really is a matter of being in the spirit, being in faith, being in agreement with him. And it's that alignment that brings authority. Submit to God, that's first, resist the devil, then he will flee. And sometimes when we think of submission to God, we're thinking strictly in terms of obedience as it pertains to sin and morality,

when it also includes submission to God in thinking according to the truth. Yes. So when it comes to this idea of submission to God in the Holy Spirit, when it comes to healing, what's your perspective on the idea that, you know, some people are praying and there's healing and sometimes there's praying and there's prayer and there's not healing. And then there's, I know you mentioned earlier, maybe it wasn't in this, but in your book, but about the idea of there's a difference between Christians who can lay hands on people, They hands up people and they pray and there's healing versus those who are actually called to healing ministries.

Is it that the Holy Spirit, it blesses people with that ministry? Is there a responsibility that comes with it that not everybody could, you know, have or have the ability to maybe submit to? I'm not sure. It's an excellent question. I would say that when it comes to the healing gift like we see in 1st Corinthians 12, because you see Mark 16, that's every believer. 1 Corinthians 12, it says, do all have gifts of healing? So it was a little interesting to me that they're so similar. One says all. The other one says some. And so I was like, okay, Lord, help me understand this. And when you look at the context of 1 Corinthians 12, while the apostle is talking about the expression of gifts that

were to be used in the context of the public church assembly or in the corporate body, 1 Corinthians 12, 7 sets the context by telling us that we've all been given a spiritual gift so that we can help each other. And so that's others centered that focus of ministry. Now, the thing we have to remember is that when it comes to healing gifts or when it comes to laying hands on the sick or when it comes to God just healing without any participation on our part, all of these fall under the sovereignty of God. And I think there's this misconception that the prophets of old or the apostles in the book of acts or the early church that they were somehow acting by their own will,

apart from God's intervention and able to do these things aside from his ability and authority. And that just was never the case. So I would rather say that the ministry of healing isn't that we have this special gift that no one else has. Rather, it just so happens to be that I've been assigned to more moments where I'm seeing miracles. Or that I have a responsibility to teach on and preach on and encourage people in the area of their healing. It's an emphasis of grace, if you will, as opposed to a potent ability. because ultimately it's God's ability to heal, and we don't have that power on our own.

But especially when it comes to people who aren't healed, of course there are questions that arise. I mean, I think of like Timothy. I'm like, Paul writes to him, you should have a little wine for your stomach's sake since you're sick so often. The people who Jesus could not heal in the town where there was doubt.

Okay, well, there's another instance right there. I think of the man at Gate Beautiful. He was healed in the book of Acts. Why did Jesus heal him when he was there every day? And so these are the things that we have to process, but ultimately I simplify it by coming to this place. It is our job to believe. It is God's job to heal.

And that's the simplest way we can look at it because if we try to go outside the bounds of what the scripture says, we just end up in some strange theology, or we end up putting pressure on people that God did not intend to put on them. In other words, shaming them because they were not healed. That's just not the way that Jesus did it. Yeah. Yeah, because I know that.

that, you know, when it comes to healing, there's a big emphasis in the Gospels, Jesus himself, on the belief and having faith for healing. And you brought up some great examples that I'm going through a situation right now where I'm praying for healing every day. And I came across, and I've been zeroing in on Mark 11 and how Jesus says that if you have the faith, you can move these mountains. First you have to believe. And then he follows it up with also,

you have to believe you received it already. And it really, when I started reading that, and just going over and over again, it's like how, you know? And it gets really, I get really, get really caught, I was getting really caught up in and the striving instead of the surrendering, right? And that's how I feel like I've moved past it where, you know, even this past Sunday, I was at church and I'm the last one in the sanctuary and I'm just like, I'm just pouring out to God.

And I got up and I started walking away and I felt the Holy Spirit. say to me, in a sense, what you're talking about to surrender and just let me handle this. She's going to be fine. That's heavy. Yeah. And so it put me back in my seat. And hearing you talk about this, it's like, yeah. It's my, like, he's told me what I need to do.

And that's just to have the faith and pray. And it's not like we're going to have these magical words or there's certain, like you were talking about when you locked yourself in the room for four hours. It's not that. And I think sometimes we want to just, we want the magic formula. It's like, God, how, just tell me what I need to say. So you'll do what I want you to do. It's not how the Holy Spirit operates. Yeah.

And I don't know anyone. And I know a lot of them. I don't know anyone in the healing ministry who claims they have healing. power. I don't know anyone in the healing ministry who claims they can apart from the will of God cause miracles to happen. I mean, I can go down the list in my own life. My wife and I still have fertility issues. And I was just talking about this with someone today. I'm saying, here I am in the healing ministry. I've laid hands on people who could not have children, who have children now. Miracle of God. And yet here my wife and I still struggling. Now obviously God's given us two

miracle babies, but the issues are still there. We still need a miracle to have children. And I'm thinking, Lord, why won't you heal us in that area? Why won't you bring restoration? I've seen you do it. My best friend Steve, his brother's in a wheelchair. So here Steve is, and you've seen his worship on our ministry, here he is at events where he's seeing people healed of the very thing that has his brother in a wheelchair. And so these are questions we ask like, Lord, how do do we reconcile this? And this is where we have to choose to elevate the word above our experience, because the word says we're healed. The word tells us that God is the God who heals us. The word tells us that we lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Now, we don't adjust our whole theology

around our experiences, nor do we shame people for not being healed. I mean, I've seen people with faith not healed. There's other factors to consider, including the timing of God. But taking all that into account, it's as simple as trust and obey. I know your word says this. I'm going to believe your word. You're the God who heals. You know what reminds me of Tony? Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Even if he doesn't deliver us from the fire, we still will not bow to this false representation of who God is. We're not going to bow to the idol just because God doesn't perform the way we want him to perform. And here's the issue. Because sometimes we see that God does not heal in our timing or the way we want him to, we bow. We bow.

to a version of God that does not heal. And that is idolatry. And we adjust everything around that. And I understand people get offended by that message. I understand that people don't like to hear that healing is God's will. That's biblical. I understand people get offended when we say, your faith makes you whole. But hey, that's biblical.

So what we do is simply believe for the miracle, trust God on the other side of it, and the Holy Spirit helps us to do that. Here again, we see our friend, the precious Holy Spirit. it helping us to take it day by day. Tony, I'd rather go the rest of my life, believing for the miracle, than to give up one day too soon. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of miracles and these topics, do you recall, I don't know if it was in your youth or when this started for you, but do you recall the first time that you, maybe not even observed, but you were actively praying for somebody and there was a healing that took place.

Because I think there's a lot of people that hear these stories. And I've shared them on my show. Like my grandfather, he was an evangelist back in the 60s and he would pray for people and there would be healings. But I have never to this day prayed for somebody and I've seen the healing happen right for my eyes. And so what was like, what was that like for you seeing that for the first time and, you know, walk us into that?

Well, I do recall the instance. Now, I am the worst with chronology. I've tried to go through my journals and timelines and try to piece together when. So I already know the day's going to come where the heresy hunters are going to piece together all my stories and going to go, he got this wrong, that wrong. And I just know it's coming. But I've tried my best to put it all out on timeline and remember it in the proper order because it's just scattered notes. It's little, it's pictures, it's journals.

But I do have a journal. And in the journal, I was in, there was a part of Mexico. I don't remember if it was Ensenada or T.J. I believe it was Tijuana, Mexico. And that's actually where I preached my first healing service. I must have been, I want to say, around 14. And I remember I was preaching on healing. It's very simple.

It wasn't like, it's funny, whenever these stories are told, we kind of picture like this special atmosphere. And yes, the presence of God was there. But miracles happen on just the most ordinary days in the most ordinary settings to the point where you're thinking, did that just happen? Like, it's not like in the movies where, you know, the news crews come and it just doesn't happen that way. But here we are. We're on a dirt field, metal chairs. I don't even think there was like a tent or anything shading us from the sun. I'm preaching.

The microphones wired in. The sound was muffled. And I'm just sharing a very simple message on healing. This mother brings her baby to the front And the baby had bumps all over its head It was in pain The baby was in pain And the mother asked me to lay hands

I lay hands on the baby Simple prayer And honestly I don't even recall If I had felt anything flowing Sometimes I do sometimes I don't And I just remember praying a simple prayer The mother starts to feel for the bumps And she's sweeping, screaming

The translator did the same thing and they're both looking at each other crying because the bumps were gone. And the baby was healed. And that was the first time I had ever seen the healing power of God working in a service like that in a healing service. Now, we had seen miracles before, praying for family members, friends, and so forth. But that was the first one where I was like, this is a, this is a real miracle right here. And it doesn't always happen like that. It doesn't always happen like that. It's just the Lord's timing, how he does it. And this is where I say, Our part is the simplest.

We trust and obey. Just surrender. Holy Spirit, where do you want me to go? Holy Spirit, what do you want me to do? Have the faith, live in faith, obey, and God does the rest. It really is that simple. Yeah. We see the people, you know, the healing ministries, people, you know, going through these ministries

and seeing healing in their body. Maybe it's just my YouTube algorithm, but I get a lot of videos feeding me that kind of stuff regularly. I don't see the other side of it a whole lot on my YouTube feed, thankfully, but there is this, maybe it paints an image of the spiritual warfare that is just part of the human existence because we have the supernatural healings where it's the power and evidence of God. And then there's the other side of things where there's demonic inhabiting happening in people. And there's that need for deliverance. And I feel like there's people who come from skepticism on both sides. They look at the idea of healing and they're like, I don't know, is that person faking it?

Was it all a ruse? And then it's the same thing with the demonic side of things where, you know, the enemy is latching on to people or in people. And I'm sure you've seen something like that as well. is there in your mind a parallel where it's like God showing his power at the same time this enemy is trying to show its power by some kind of supernatural means in the very creation God created? I mean, that's a very interesting way to put it. I've never thought of it in those terms. I mean, in a general sense, I've been aware of the conflict between the two, but to narrow

it down to be that specific about almost like an immediate counter to what God is doing on level. I mean, that's an interesting thought. I've not thought about it in those terms. I'm very simple in the way I approach ministry, but I think that's, help me understand a little more what you're saying, because I want to make sure I'm commenting on it. Are you saying, is your observation that there's healing and then the enemy has a counterfeit healing, or the skepticism that pushes back against it is the counter? Yeah, so I would say basically both. There is that the idea that there's the counterfeit healing. But it's more just maybe in a general sense. It's like, here's the power of God. And I feel like the enemy says, yeah, I have power to. Let me show you what I can do to you.

And maybe it's not healing, but it's more inhabiting within you, you know? I think it's always been that way. I mean, you look as far back as the magicians in Pharaoh's court. They want to prove themselves. I mean, it comes to a certain point where there's just no comparison, but I think certainly to some degree, there is that pushback, especially now, I don't know if you're familiar with the TikTok culture, and I want to encourage pastors, leaders, and Christians, don't just be so dismissive of these new social media platforms. Sometimes we say, oh, that's just evil.

And they did it with radio, they did it with television, they did it with the internet. Let's not do it with social media platforms. Let's be on these platforms to minister the gospel. But on TikTok, there's a whole subculture called Witch Talk. Have you heard of this? Yes. Where there's tarot card reading,

there's psychic demonel. There's manifestation in the new age sense. I mean, it's all right there. And people are hungry for the supernatural. So, yeah, I would agree with that. I would definitely, I would agree with that emphatically. There is definitely this pushback in the area of the supernatural, almost like a battle for the attention of people who are searching for the supernatural. Yeah.

Yeah, witch talk is something that I've seen popping up myself. And it's interesting because I've also seeing the trend of, you know, know, the witch-talk side of things, this Gen Z and this desire for spiritual existence in their life. And at the same time, you see that, you see the same generation flooding the churches. And I really believe that there is this revival happening in our world. But again, I view things often with a very supernatural lens and mindset. And I don't think I was always like that, but I think that's what the show did to me. And I just, I see this like clash with that as well where it's like you see the the witch talk side of things and the, this generation starving for a spiritual

existence. And at the same time, you see that same generation running to the church as well. And you see this, this clash that's happening within just one generation. But at the sense, either side you look at it, there is this spiritual awakening. happening that human beings have been starved of for decades of this desire, this, this innate hunger that they have for a spiritual existence that they've been, they've been starved of by, you know, the people who are running the show saying, there is no God, you know, evolution is the way to go. There is, there's nothing outside of you. And now it's like, you starve somebody so long, they're going to start looking for the stake. And I feel like that's

what's happening right now. And you know, you just sparked the thought at me. It is, it is somewhat like a mirror because on the secular side, you have the supernatural demonstration through the occult. On the spiritual side, you have the supernatural demonstration to the Holy Spirit. You go further out on those extremes, the secular world has atheism. The church has cessationism. And so they are direct mirrors of each other, but just like atheism is dying, cessationism is dying. These are not growing movements. They are movements that are on their last legs here. because people are waking up to the fact that there is a supernatural. Even to the point where people who claim to be continuationists,

yet all they ever do is criticize moves of the spirit, even that part of the body is losing a lot of influence. It's not, that's not the face of Christianity. That's not, when people think of Christians, they're not thinking of that. Now it's becoming that the demonstrations of the supernatural are on the forefront, and I think this is indicative of the times in which we live. David, I appreciate you coming on the show,

Tony, thank you. This was a fantastic conversation. People can go ahead and check out your book today. It is available. Link will be in the description of this episode. And I appreciate your time, sir. Thank you, my friend. I so enjoyed my time with you.