The Confessionals - 794: The Weapon Against Hell

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Worship isn’t just music, it’s a weapon in the war for your soul. In this episode, Tony sits down with world-renowned worship leader Kim Walker-Smith to uncover how worship tears down strongholds, confronts darkness, and shifts spiritual atmospheres. From face-to-face encounters with witchcraft to testimonies of healing and breakthrough, Kim reveals the untold power of praise as warfare. This is a raw, eye-opening conversation that will forever change how you view lifting your voice to God.Please pray for Tony's wife, Lindsay, as she battles breast cancer. Your prayers make a difference!If you’re able, consider helping the Merkel family with medical expenses by donating to Lindsay’s GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/b8f76890Become a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZTony's Recommended Reads: slingshotlibrary.comMy New YouTube ChannelMerkel IRL: @merkelIRLMy First Sermon: Unseen BattlesSasquatch and The Missing Man: merkelfilms.comMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] Walker-SmithInstagram | YouTubeMAILING ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelProduced by: @jack_theproducerOUTRO MUSICTony Merkel - Worship is a WeaponYouTube | Apple Music | Spotify

Hey, everyone, before we get to this week's show, this is just your weekly reminder to please continue to pray for my wife, Lindsay. She is battling breast cancer right now, and we're praying for complete healing in Jesus' name. Thank you. Merkel. Media. This was all circulating around the face that a giant had to kill, but no one was supposed to talk about it. I saw three long, boning fingers, reach up underneath the door, curl up to grab it, and then dissipate. When he came over to me, dude, he slithered over to me.

And this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen. And he starts running and firing at this giant. With a giant moves, he's got a spear in one hand and he's running really fast. And spears Dan holds him up like this. Somebody else, shoot him in the face, shoot him in the face. They basically decapitated. Feel something pulling at my leg. And I look over and there are two small gray entities cooling it.

And they're literally, I'm getting pulled off the bed. I reached my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know I'm seeing a monster. Welcome to the show, everybody. You're listening to The Confessionals Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Merkel. Thanks for being here. If you want to get a hold of me, go ahead and shoot me an email.

Contact at theconfessionalspodcast.com or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com. hit the contact section and you can reach me that way as well. Either it works for me, just get a hold of me. If you want more shows on a weekly basis, just go to the Confessionalspodcast.com, become a member, $7 a month or $70 a year, unlocks the entire membership episode archive to you, plus future episodes all house on your exclusive social media app that's built for the Confessionals members.

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in a meadow in an undisclosed location, and that documentary is streaming exclusively on Merkelfilms.com next week on September 30th. Hope to see you there as well. Now, this week we have Kim Walker Smith coming here in studio to talk about worship. She is one of the world's most renowned worship leaders, and she came in to talk about the state of worship today and how it can be used as a weapon during spiritual battles. Now, when Kim left the studio, about 10, 15 minutes, later, the news broke that Charlie Kirk had been assassinated and it gave this conversation much more gravity in my mind because we are dealing with principalities on a daily basis that are waging war against us. And we just talked about one of the things we can do to wage war back by worshiping

God, bringing him into the equation and letting him fight our battles. So this conversation was originally supposed to go later, but I bumped it up because of how relevant I feel it is with the topics that we covered. And I hope you guys gain from this conversation, understanding that we are not helpless. We can fight back. We have to use the tools that are available to us through Christ Jesus alone. I hope you guys enjoy this conversation. Let's get to it. And it makes zero sense as to why some of the decisions these governments do what they do. Like even you were talking about earlier about Philly. And the way, I don't know the laws and regulations as to what got Philly to where it it's at, but I know it is the government that allowed it to get where it's at. Because I remember

they made a decision that they were going to start supplying locations where people could drop off their dirty needles and get clean needles for, I guess, the next night. And now it's evolved to, in Kensington and North Philly, it's gotten so bad where it's like the fentanyl capital of the world. Dang. And it's literally people just, they're zombies. And these people, These are people that God loves and that are dying from this disease that they're addicted to, right? I don't know if that's the right way of saying it, but like they're addicted to these drugs and that's a disease. Yes. And they kind of let the city just go to crap where now in the mornings the police will go down the streets in Kensington.

And one, they're pushing the people who are just strung out. They're just hunched over, just standing there like, and with these weird positions. It looks like a zombie apocalypse. It's crazy. And they're just like kind of ushering them onto the sidewalks. You don't have to leave. You can stay there. You can sleep there on the street.

It's whatever. And then you have other cops or maybe fire department walking down alleys with, like, you'll have like three or four guys standing in a line with leaf blowers. And they're blowing the trash and all the stuff from the night before into piles where a street sweeper is sitting there and they blow it into the street sweeper. And it's just like every day is the same thing. It's like, that's not normal, that's not natural. And that's like government regulation at work. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And it's just crazy. I mean, and then the spiritual component of that, the spiritual side of that. I mean, I look at Philadelphia. Let's just say Philadelphia, because I'm familiar with Philadelphia and L.A. You see the different issues with both cities, right? Yeah.

But when I look at it with a spiritual lens, it looks different. Like you can say, oh, it's drugs. It's always drugs, drugs, drugs. But there's a spiritual, there's something, there's a spiritual entity or something that's claiming a geographical location of authority in L.A. And it's different than what's doing it in Philly. And you can see it in the people, how they're all acting out, but the way they're doing it, there's a pattern of the people in Philly that are doing the same thing and that people

in the L.A. are doing the same thing, but it's different than the Philly people. And you can tell there's a principality at work in both sides. Have you ever noticed anything like that? No, yeah. You travel the world, you know, singing and stuff. And it's just like you go to different cities and it's just like you can sense it, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's not just other cities, other countries too.

You know, there's, I lived in Mozambique for a month and then I've gone to South Africa quite a few times to do worship there. And it's kind of interesting. if you are one who is just aware of that and kind of feels the change, I feel it. And it's hard to put words to sometimes, like what you sense and feel. And I feel like sometimes, you know, there's other people who are really good at putting words to it or identifying. And I'm kind of more like, well, I can just, I feel it. Sometimes I might have some words and sometimes I don't. And I'm just like praying and asking the Lord about it.

But like somewhere like in Africa, it feels. I always say the word ancient. It feels old. It feels like whatever is there that feels like a stronghold in that place. It feels like something old that's been there a long time. In South Africa? Uh-huh. Yeah.

And it feels like something that you have to, like I don't go into that stuff just like, oh, this will be fun. This will be. Is I go into it like, Lord, you have to give me specific words and specific prayers. And I need like wisdom in all of this. And even like going into worship, I'm going in with the mindset of we are probably going to be coming up against some stuff. And so I want to be wise and even how we're how we're doing that. Here in America, different cities, it is different everywhere you go. There was a city.

Well, I don't want to say a city. It was a town, a very small town in Pennsylvania that right when I got in there. What town? It was Tyrone. Tyrone. No, this is a... Do you know, it's very... Western Pennsylvania?

Well, I don't know, actually. It's in Pennsylvania. It's very small. Very, very small. I was just making sure it was in town we were from, because we were from a small town, Hamburg, Pennsylvania. Do you know Al-Tuna? Oh, yeah, Al-Tuna.

Okay, so Tyrone is near Al-Tuna. Gotcha. Okay. So, flying into there, I was going to do worship and got in really late. But the moment we got there, if there was what felt to me like a lot of witchcraft in the area. Yeah. And this is actually something I'm somewhat familiar with.

I feel like this is one I'll pick up pretty quick. Where I grew up in Oregon, there was a town nearby to where we were called Ashland, Oregon. And there was a ton of witchcraft there. A lot of people practicing the occult, a new age, a lot of witches. There was also, there's a water spring there. It's a Lithia Springs. And they're drawn to things like that. They're drawn to these like geographical type things.

I don't really know a lot about that or why. But they're drawn to the water. There's a lot of weird beliefs about that spring and about the water. And if you drink it and what it can do for you or whatever. And in the center of the town, there's actually this fountain where the water is coming up and people go and fill up their water bottles or just drink right out of the fountain or whatever. But anyways, as a child going there frequently, I'd encountered a lot of witchcraft and the occult. didn't know that or have those words for that at the time, but that's what it was. So that's a familiar thing to me.

So when I went to this place in Pennsylvania, the first night I was there, I could feel that. And I just started praying. And I'm not scared of that. But I also am of the mindset of, I know what I'm here to do. And it could be a little bit disruptive to what's here. And yes. And that night, actually, in my hotel room, I woke up because there was a witch in the room. Really?

Yes. Like, I think you said something about it earlier. The, the, when they, what's the word? They, they. Oh, Astro Project? Yes. Yes. That was there.

And that's happened a few times. But I sat up in bed the moment it happened. and rebuked her and told her to leave. You can see her with your eyes. Yes, with my eyes, but not like I'm seeing you now. Okay. It's more of an image that I'm seen. And I immediately rebuked her and told her to leave in Jesus' name.

But she said, before I got all the words out, she said that she did not want me here. She said, you're not supposed to be here. And I knew I was supposed to be there. And then the next morning, I was like, man, there's some weird stuff in this place. And when I went to the church that I was going to be doing the worship at, this woman came up to me. And she said, I was praying for you. And she says, there are things here very upset about what you're going to do today.

And I said, oh, and when I was looking at her, I could see she's someone like me. She knows. She knows what's going on here. We're not here just to sing songs. Right. We're actually here coming against Prince. municipalities and powers with our worship. And I could see she knows that. She's aware of that. And I said, you are, you're an intercessor, aren't you? And she said, yeah. And I said, well,

let's pray. And I said, I actually had something happened last night. And it made me kind of go, okay, well, there's some things going on here. And so we prayed together. And it's good. And actually, the worship was really incredible. We had a really powerful time. And then, crazy enough, I ended up going back only a few months later. And that was. was a really powerful time. We had a lot of people get saved and then get baptized while worship was happening. It was more of an outreach type of event. Anyways, and the interesting thing was when I went back the next time, it felt like we had taken some ground. Like it felt the opposition that I felt the first time. It wasn't that it just disappeared the next time I was there, but it was,

it felt less strong, if that makes any sense. It got beat up. Yeah. It took a beating. And then I was back to do it again. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, our worship is really powerful.

And people forget about this. And in church, we've dumbed it down to just songs that we sing for a few minutes before the pastor preaches. And people have forgotten how powerful our worship. worship is corporately when we come together. It's not confined to the room or to the day or the moment, but it can shift the atmosphere where we are. It can shift the atmosphere in a city. It can, it can, I mean, I have so many stories and testimonies of people being healed or set free just in worship, just in bringing an offering to Jesus, taking their eyes off of. the problem or the issue and putting their attention on Jesus and he just shows up and does

what he does out of his goodness and kindness. And so it's powerful. And I'm saying that to say, we have made it like just this, a routine on a Sunday morning and forgetting that it is warfare and that is powerful. And when we go into cities, I even pray and ask the Lord about, well, what songs should I sing in this city? Because the other thing that I think is really powerful is when you're aware of what's there. And I will go opposite. You know, if there's a spirit of heaviness in a place, well, I want to start speaking joy and singing about joy. And I'm looking for words and lyrics that speak to kind of breaking that heaviness, breaking that yoke.

and being like strategic, you know, in the worship. Again, not just showing up in singing songs, but showing up with an idea of, I'm on assignment from the Lord. He's brought me here. I don't just say yes to every invitation. I don't just go wherever. I go where I feel like the Lord tells me to go.

And I go with the idea of I'm going to partner with the Lord and whatever he's wanting to accomplish in that. place. And a lot of times it is warfare because that's kind of what worship is. I think worship is a weapon of warfare. It's so powerful that you're talking like this because I'm not I'm not trying to like, you know, blow you up or anything, but it's like you're, you are one of the more popular worship singers, pastors. And I say globally, you know, you've traveled the world and you have a very detailed story and people are very familiar with you. And for you to be saying, and I've heard And this is a conversation, almost an extension of a conversation we had in agreement where it's like, we were talking about this in worship and the music and everything.

You have this view and it's like it doesn't benefit you to say what you just said, right? Right. Like what would be beneficial is for you to sit down and table and like, yes, we should go and have plenty of worship concerts and make it maybe even charge a fee to enter and all that stuff. And you're just like, no, it's about spiritual warfare. It's about battle. You know, we had a, my pastor, there was a Sunday he wasn't there. And we had another pastor preaching. I always get his name wrong because I've never heard a name like this.

I think it's Maisel Ely is his name. He's, it's a unique name. He's an older man. He's my pastor's pastor. Okay. And he was preaching and I'd never heard anybody say this before. But he started, the whole push of the service of his message was, our worship needs to start the night before we even come into church. He's like, you shouldn't be

getting primed for worship in worship. He's like, you should be walking to the door already ready to rock. And he didn't say this, but it's the same idea is that you're going to battle, you're going to war. Worship is a weapon. And what you're doing is you're interacting with the spiritual realm. I believe that's why even churches themselves are battlegrounds. There are, there are churches who get attacked by witches. There are things that happen in churches that are seemingly spooky supernatural, but it is a battleground. Like you're, you're going to church on a Sunday, but you're actually going to a battlefield, right? And so it's interesting hearing you talk about this, this way. And you mentioned about the witch that has,

come in, and that should be a signifier of what is about to happen, right? Yes. Yeah. With that experience, and you said you saw the witch, do you think that what you were seeing was with your physical eyes or spiritual eyes? I would say with my spiritual eyes, I'm not really one to, I've had these experiences. I am very aware of the spirit realm. This is something that's probably at the forefront of my mind a lot, especially as someone

who's doing my best to walk with Holy Spirit in my daily life on a consistent basis. So I can't say I always have all the clarity or the definitions or whatever. But yeah, I would say, it be with my spiritual eyes. Because it's, like I said, it's not like I'm looking at you now, but I saw this woman, this witch and is very clear. but I don't know that I could say it's not like this, you know, it's different. It's different. Yeah.

And it's hard to describe. Yes. Because I mean, I don't, I wouldn't say I've had experiences like that. I've had plenty of people try to describe the experience to me, you know? And then as a person who's never gone through that, it's like, I'm trying to relate that to other people. And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, I don't know what I mean. And so I'm trying to relate to you what they said.

Yeah. Yeah. But the spiritual realm is very active. Yes. And I feel like the more we come to understand that and we understand that we are interacting with it, whether you like it or not, you're interacting with it. Yeah. I think it's going to bode well for everybody. Especially the Christians that I think there's a large amount of Christians that are waking up to that reality.

Yeah. I've even seen like Calvinists, like starting to talk about the possibility of speaking in tongues. Wow. It's like, whoa, it's a big step. Yeah. Watch out. Wow. But it's, I mean, like I was saying to you earlier, I mean, like with the show, I've come to understand things in a way that it would be dishonest for me not to actually speak on things that I feel like I know.

Yes. And I think corporately, the Christian body, whether you're Baptist, Pentecost, charismatic, corporately, I think we're all moving in a direction of the supernatural realm is starting to like wake up the sleepy heads in the church. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. So this is not actually what I planned on doing with my life. I had no desire to be a worship leader. This was not something I was thinking about. I always say in my pursuit of the Lord, you know, it says in Proverbs, man makes his plans, but the Lord aligns his steps.

So I kind of view it as I just made Jesus my focal point. I am, you are my mission. I am moving towards you. And in that process of moving towards Jesus, he aligned myself. and led me into this. Sometimes I'm, I'm just surprised, honestly, like, that I, this is what I do. It's still kind of weird to me sometimes. And I'm, I'm very thankful. And I'm always like, I will, I'll do this for as long as you bless this, as long as you want me in this. Like, and if you sent me somewhere else into something else, I would do that. Whatever it is, I'm just,

I'm committed to the Lord. But in this, I have some really strong convictions about it and about worship, which is, you know, maybe some of my peers would agree. Maybe some of them wouldn't. Maybe some of them haven't thought about it. I don't know. I don't think about that a ton, except that like one of my convictions is that for me as a worship leader, part of what I am called to do is to serve the body of Christ. And I love the church. I have church wounds like everybody else. I've gone through things. But I feel the heart of the father for his bride. And I feel like one of the church, jobs as, you know, as a, as a minister for pastors. I get frustrated sometimes when I feel like pastors aren't thinking about this and really doing this, but is to prepare the bride. Jesus is coming back

for a spotless bride, but a bride that is on fire with passion for him and a bride that is courageous and bold in their faith, not just sitting at home and showing up on a Sunday morning and saying they're Christian because they went to church on Sunday. You can check that box. Like, he's coming back. for a powerful bride. And so I do feel this like sense of responsibility to to help ready the bride. And so I feel a strong conviction about worship. It's really interesting the pastor you're talking about about him saying, you know, your worship should start way before you ever come in. I feel like this is a message I've been trying to communicate for so long. I think about

what would the church look like if everybody in the church understood their role as worshipers and how important worship is. When we define it as, well, if you say, well, what is worship? Well, it's the songs you sing before the pastor preaches. It's not. It is not. It is so much more than that. If you simply define it, it's, I would say God pouring his love on us and we respond and pour our love back on on him. There's this exchange, but it's all in relationship. Well, that relationship, shouldn't be contained to just that moment of time on a Sunday morning. And what would the Sunday mornings look like if, number one, we all went through our week fighting to hold on to this connection and to walk close with Jesus. Because, you know, we have life and jobs and stress arguments and all

these things that can kind of come in between. And you can come in on a Sunday morning, even feeling a little beat up and like, I need the worship team to get me connected again. I need pastor to get me connected again. But what if we, if we learned how important worship is even in the warfare, in fighting for that and maintaining that? And we go through our week holding on to that connection and we come on a Sunday morning, even with the mindset of not what can I get today, but what can I bring today? What can I give today to the Lord? What can I give to the people around me? I just think church would look so different and be just so so much more radical in our church service. I mean, even imagine for me, like, the amount of people engaging in worship with the Lord versus, you know, come on, let's sing this or let's do this or let's pray this, you know.

And I think that we kind of lose our edge a little bit. and become kind of soft and weak when we are forgetting how powerful this is, how important it is to our walk. And it doesn't matter if you can sing or not. Worship isn't about a talent. It's not about a skill. It's about our heart and bringing our heart to Jesus. And staying filled up. I always picture it like there's like a well in each of us.

And we want that well to be filled. But filled doesn't mean it's just filled to the top. there's a constant pouring in so that you can have a constant pouring out. And, you know, there's a little kind of worship hook that I hear a lot of churches sing and we've done before. And it says, this is how I fight my battles. I heard that. Oh, yeah. Put on a repeat, right?

Yeah, but I can kind of frustrate because I kind of feel like, do y'all even know what you're singing right now? Like, literally, this is it. This is how you do it. Like, worship. Like, this is our warfare right here. I feel like it's just like right over their heads when you're singing it sometimes. Sometimes with lyrics and worship songs, I get self-conscious. So I'm very analytical in the sense of like I don't know.

I get in my head a lot about things. I can see that. Sometimes during worship, some of the lyrics and stuff, it's beautiful, but I feel uncomfortable unless I'm actually going to physically do what I'm saying. I'm doing in the lyrics, right? Yep. And so, like, when I moved here, I was, I thought I was going to look around for, like, more of an apostolic church.

So I was like, I wanted a church where they believe the supernatural. But I want to be a little more tame, you know? Not so out there. And it's like, my buddy, Josh, he was like, I'm telling you, man, you got to come to my church, I play the drums for worship. And I was just like, all right, we'll go just because I need to get into a church. church. And then that's the church we went up, I'm settling into because our pastor, he already knew who I was. So I was like, oh, that's a big hurdle for me to have to jump, you know,

because, you know, like doing this stuff, what I do is not accepted with every church, right? Right. But it, the worship was something that I was like, I'm not comfortable, you know, and I grew up Pentecostal. But I never got comfortable during worship. And it wasn't until, I would say, the last few years that I really started just, I don't understand, I don't understand it, but like, I don't know, like, it just, there was a shift in my, my brain, I suppose, where it's like, it's not about you at all. Yeah. And, you know, like, I started letting my hands creep up, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

I'll try this little. Yeah. This little thing. I did it. I did. Yeah. And then, um, uh, uh, but when I, uh, uh, but when I'm. I started doing that, the Holy Spirit kind of started kicking in.

And I started finding myself in tears during worship and just like the Holy Spirit. And like you talk about warfare. Part of that is like the Holy Spirit having an opportunity, you letting the Holy Spirit have an opportunity to kind of turn some bolts in you and start giving you a tune up. Yeah. And I really feel like worship does that. At least for me, and I'm assuming for other people, like if you let it happen, it's just like you get spiritually tuned up, you know. Yes. Yeah.

But I do get in my head about the lyrics sometimes. I do think that there is something to be said of the physical act of whatever it is, whether it's, you know, you're lifting your hands or maybe you jump around or move a little bit whatever it is. We all kind of have our different expressions and not everyone is comfortable with the physical expressions. But kind of like we're talking about with like the spiritual warfare, you know, sometimes, like you might go into a place and sense something. and maybe God tells you to do something that doesn't make any sense.

Like what if God says, I want you to go and put oil on this and pray these words and say them out loud? Or, you know, it might just be like a physical act. It may not make a lot of sense to you. But there is something about the physical act that just, I don't know, like it can pull you out sometimes. or I think it's important even sometimes that we say things out loud, like when we're praying, like not keeping everything internal. It matters. You know, life and death is in the power of the tongue.

Well, then it probably matters if we speak this out loud. So in the same way, sometimes I think, like, if we're uncomfortable with the, you know, the physical, like putting a hand up or whatever, this is where, like, you might actually find some more freedom with Christ. in that act, the physical act of putting yourself kind of in a position that is uncomfortable. I mean, this is like a greater surrender. You can tell Jesus, you surrender all day long. But doesn't it feel like another level of surrender to go outside of your comfort zone to do something that feels very like,

I don't even, maybe I don't even understand why I'm putting my hand up, you know, or except that maybe it's like a here I am, I'm surrendering or, you know, very, And I just feel like sometimes that's really powerful that there's so many stories. I have my own stories too. And you've probably heard a lot of stories from other Christians of it wasn't until they made that kind of first step. I always think even when pastors give the, like share the gospel in church, and then they tell them, close your eyes and, you know, raise your hand if you want to see Christ. I would be like, no, look around.

Like, we want to see you and we want to come around you. And I know that they're just. trying to like help them not feel, you know, yeah, whatever. But I'm like, but this is a big deal. Like we don't, you, you need to know what's required of you. You're not saying yes to Jesus and going to have a cushy, happy life. Like, we will love him unto death. Like, this is, this is what is required. Like, you need to be bold in your faith. So I'm, I'm always like, no, open those eyes. Like, look around. Like, come on. We want to see who's coming in, you know. And there is something that I think that matters and is important with the physical act. And I would never try to dictate

to someone what that should be. It's kind of different for all of us. But I think it is very powerful and important when we can actually put something physical to our worship, whatever that is. What you just described, I'm sure so many people have gone through in a church where close your eyes, raise your hands. And I have spent many times during those moments predicting the sneak attack of, go ahead, close your eyes, raise your hands. Now, everybody who rose their hand, I'm listening. I'm like, I'm like, all right, pastor, where's this one going? Because I'm going to, if I'm not comfortable where I think this is going, I ain't raising my hands, sir. because I know that attack's coming.

But what it is is, I mean, when say a pastor's doing that, because I mean, you raising your hand doesn't get you into heaven, right? But it's giving you the opportunity to join forces and join an army. That's kind of going on what you're talking about. Like by doing that, if people are looking around, they see who's raising the hand. You're now the people who see the person who raise their hand. You can go pray for them. But now it's like you're bringing them into the camp and you're like, okay, welcome to the army, you know?

Because, I mean, the worst is going through spiritual attacks, not knowing it and being on an island by yourself, not having the corporate body to have your back. And I think there's a lot of people. I mean, I was going through that. I still go through that at times because sometimes, like, you're going through an attack and you do not want to talk about it. It's almost like you don't even want to talk about because you're like, I don't want to give a power or something. I don't want to acknowledge this is even happening. It's like you got to be honest. Bring it to the light.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've noticed the more you do that, the less the teeth have in you. Because it's like when it's happening and you're keeping it secret and quiet, that's when the attack just keeps hitting you. As soon as you bring light on it, it just loses its power. Yeah. I said, I think I said it a minute ago, but I really do think that people need to know what they're signing up for. Like I think that, again,

And when we've kind of softened things and dumbed things down a little bit, like, you do need to understand that walking with Jesus is to take up your cross daily and you will face hardships and you will face difficult times. It says in Josea chapter 2 that the Lord is the one who leads us into the desert. So often even in like desert seasons, people think I'm being punished, I've done something wrong. I made a wrong turn. And right there in Josea 2 it says that he's the one who leads.

us there because in that valley he's going to make a door of hope. And I think that the Lord is inviting us in those moments to walk deeper with him. Like you've been in water to hear, but now I'm asking you to step into waters over your head, but it's going to require you to know me in a new way. It's going to require you to hear me in a new way. There's a sharpening that's happening in that. But people should know. At the church I go to in Montana, they have this. thing where they refer to the unresolved. And they're talking about the people in the room who are there and kind of going, I'm here.

Maybe I've come for a few Sundays and I'm not totally sure if I'm all the way in yet. I don't really know. And the first time I heard it, I'm kind of like, oh, okay, that's a unique way of talking to those people. Like, we know that they're here in the room. But then after a few Sundays of hearing it, I just wanted to stand up and start shouting, resolve it. Resolve it already.

Like, how long have you been unresolved? Like this is what Jesus asks of us. And I think that we should also be, like, just be honest and be bold about it. He is asking you to give him everything. He is asking you to surrender everything. He's not going to be like, oh, well, just, you know, give me this little part. No, no, he wants everything. He wants all of you, all of your heart, all your affection, all your attention, all your

trust. He wants all of it. And this is what it is to walk with Christ. And so I just always think in those moments and with that and with worship, I mean, why would we even hold back? Why would we just half-heartedly sing a song or, you know, why wouldn't we just bring him everything? Yeah. Because he's worthy. With your travels to different churches and stuff, you get exposed to a lot of different theologies.

Even like you could go to like two different charismatic churches and it's like two different theologies, right? Yeah. Has that ever kind of, I don't know, created maybe conflict within you on like, not like on what's what, but more like, I don't want to say conflict, but maybe like picking it, like almost like picking up pieces of different things and kind of like finding that you're almost theologically homeless because you've been around the block so much that you, you've kind of become like a hybrid almost. Is that? I mean, I probably could, feel that way. I could see how someone could

arrive at that. But I work really hard to stay in my word. I have a thriving relationship with Jesus and then I have people in my life who are like our community that we walk with in this. I have gone places, this is kind of funny to me, but I've gone places where they'll say, we're so glad. you're here, oh, by the way, do not sing in tongues. And I've had a little bit of reputation

for that. And people have wanted to debate about that. I'm always like, listen, I'm happy to have a conversation. I'm not trying to have theological debates. That's not really like my personality. But when that happens at a place like that, I'm okay with that. I'm not offended. And I always think about how Jesus met me where I was and how kind and how gracious of him to meet me where I was. And if this is where these people are at, I can meet them where they're at. That's what Jesus did for me. And I also have such an incredible trust in the Lord to do what he's going to do. I cannot force God to do something.

I cannot force the people to do something. I cannot conjure up something. I can't make something happen in worship. I can only walk in obedience. And he does the rest. And so even if I go into a place, it's like, I even had this one time. They said, could you sing hymns? And I went, I got saved when I was 18, so I don't even know him.

Like, I don't know. And I was like, I could do like the oldest songs I know, which is probably like songs from the 90s maybe, you know? And again, I don't take offense to that. I just go, I'm here just to meet these people where they're at. and I know that God is going to do the rest. And I know if I can even within what feels like confinement, find a way to make space for him.

He will. He will move. And it has been the greatest joy and the greatest honor of my life to go into churches who maybe have no prior experience or really understanding of Holy Spirit and get to see the way that. Holy Spirit moves in the room and moves in worship and how tries they might to contain him to their boxes, he just cannot be contained. And there's churches that I've built relationship over years of when I first got there

and they're like, well, you do hymns and don't do anything weird to now they're, you know, like radical spirit-filled worship, you know. And, you know, years and years ago, I was at Bethel Church. And Bethel has been, like, extremely controversial in the church and with Christians. I was there before it, you know, blew up. And, you know, there wasn't Bethel music or anything like that when I was there. And I will say this. I will say something that I have always valued about that place was that there was such a value

for freedom, that it was at the expense of the weirdos. So they, they were like, okay, well, we want freedom so much. We want people to be free in worship. We want an atmosphere free. We want this to be such a house of freedom that people can walk in here and chains just start breaking off. Like we are fighting for freedom. We're fighting for people to be whole and to be healed. And this is what we want. But on the other side of that is like, well, there's a lot of people in the occult and a new age who recognize that it's like, I asked, um, years and years ago, I met, uh, I guess you'd call him a warlock male witch warlock had come to the church. Apparently they just like being called witches now, but I didn't know that. I got chastised. Like, it's not warlock anymore,

man. I'm like, sorry, bro. Okay. So he's a witch too. I don't know. He was there. And, um, I asked him like, you know, why? Why are you here? And in my head, I'm thinking, maybe he's here to try to, you know, come against or speak a curse or something. And he said, I was drawn to the power. Wow. And he said he could see it. And he said it's like almost like a, there's almost like a light beam shooting from this place. There's, there's power. There's freedom here. And he's like, he was drawn to it. So there's lots of strange people who are drawn to that. Some, on the extreme of like that guy. And then there's some who, they're just weird.

They're just weird Christians. Like, we've met them. We know them. They're weird people. Like, who cares? God loves them too. And they're drawn to that. And if they start, you know, shutting every single.

I mean, certainly there was a guy levitating in the back one time of the church. And they shut that down. So that there's a, there is. It wasn't Holy Spirit led? No, no, that was not. It was a warlock or a witch or whatever. He was back there levitating. They went.

He was a witch or a warlock that was levitating. Yes. Yes. So it wasn't like somebody who was possessed and somebody was praying and they're levitating. No, no, no. This was somebody was like, I'm going to show my power. He was standing in the back and during worship he started levitating. Whoa.

How do you shut that down? Well, one of the pastors went back. He did. He actually, the pastor went back and he just looks up and he says, you need to come down. And he did. And was that the authority of Jesus, you know, through him, probably. But he did. He came down.

They had a conversation. They escorted him out. My point is there's a limit. There was a limit of what was allowed to happen. But there's the other extreme of like people are just, there's just some weird people, but they're drawn there. And if you shut down every little thing, you also have the potential of becoming too controlling and shutting down the freedom. It's this weird balance that they're trying to walk. But for me, I was really thankful to be in a place that was like, we're just going to go after freedom.

Yeah, there's going to be some weird things than some weird people, but we would rather err on the side of freedom than on the side of control. But because of that, like, I'm a product of that. I am the fruit of that freedom. The greatest freedom and deliverance of my life was in that environment, in that place. And I do and who I am today because of that, because of what the Lord did in my own life there in a place of freedom. And so anyways, all that to say, I do think that there is a balance to be had in, the freedom and what we're going after and wanting to invite people into. And I would rather, I would agree with that, I would rather err on the side of freedom than on a spirit of

control. You know, there's people that, you know, you mentioned about the weird people. And I feel like in, and this might go towards the church hurt side of things that people experience and they use that as a wall as to why God doesn't love. And it's like humans did that, not God, right? But in that sense, you know, let's keep the weird at bay. And by doing that, let's keep the weird people at bay. And the thing is, like, if we're actually going to believe what the scripture says that we're made in the image of God, that he created us uniquely, like that person that is weird is designed that way. Yeah. And we often treat those kind of people like they're like the social rejects. Yes. And almost as if like there are lower classes of like, like God loves me more than loves you because you're weird, you know? And it's like I've recently kind of like, I don't want to say leveled up,

but like hit a new level of understanding when it comes to forgiveness. And it's a similar vein where like we have to understand that like God loves everybody equally, even the ones that have wronged us. So like say you have wronged me and I'm holding this grudge against you and I just can't forgive you for it. I'm now walking in a situation where I'm putting a wall between. me and my maker because I can't reconcile with the person that offended me because the person that offended me, even though they were wrong, he still loves them. And so when I have beef with you

and I don't, and I'm treating you as if I don't love you because I can't forgive you, I'm now putting a wall between me and my maker. And it's like, do I actually crave that relationship with God? Because if I do, I'm going to do everything possible to draw closer to him. And that means I'm going to have to forgive you. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But maybe it sounds selfish, but in a sense it's not.

I'm willing to literally forgive you so that I can get you out of my way and I can get closer to him. Yeah. It's just like I've really come to that understanding. It's the same thing with the quote unquote weirdos and stuff. Like we can't treat people like they're a second class citizen because they don't understand what we understand. And it's all that intellectually driven.

crap that like, you know, I've kind of referenced it several times throughout the conversations today, but like, you know, I went to a Pentecostal Bible college. I didn't graduate, but I ruined it a bunch of Calvinist. And so like I did become a hybrid theology. And it, I don't want to say it did damage to me because I don't like that because I did learn a lot. But it, it changed me to strive for intellectualism when it comes to my faith. And that became more of the tear to reach than Christ himself. Yeah. You know?

And I've spent a lot of time trying to tear that down and try to get away from. I don't want to be this like this, I don't know, like, I don't think about anything guy, you know? Yeah. But I don't, I feel like I for a while got in the way of the Holy Spirit moving. Yeah. You know, and you mentioned something earlier that kind of struck me because like when I was walking in sin, I mean, probably right around the time, like, when Jesus' culture was really popping in everything, like, I was in a terrible place in my life.

Like, I didn't want anything to do with God and nothing. And, like, the Holy Spirit literally spoke to me in the middle of my rage. Like, I was like blood pressure raising, hating God because I was in a funeral and somebody had the audacity to preach the gospel. And I was like, I don't want to hear this. Like, it was like the demonic forces that had their teeth in me. And the Holy Spirit said to me, you don't need a change to come to me, just come to me. I'll change you. And that's what you were saying. It's like, it's like just come to Christ and he'll do the

work. Yes. He'll work on you. Yeah. Well, I think we, you know, and I said sometimes I feel like, you know, we've gone a little soft and kind of dumb things down a little bit. But I think that we, we forget, God doesn't need us to defend his reputation. It will stand alone. Like, he can do that himself. And we are kind of making him small even when, we're trying to control the strange people or the weird people or, you know, whatever it is. I have such a trust in God to change lives, to meet people where they are, to do something incredible. But if you just keep pushing those people out, well, then what? Like where, like, I think we shouldn't be afraid of that is my point.

But it kind of speaks, like I look at that and think, well, if you're trying to control the church and the environment so much, and have it look a certain way and be really polished and don't get weird. Nobody get weird. Like, God forbid, you know, too many people start jumping around and worship or, you know, whatever. Loving Jesus? Yeah, exactly. You know, we don't want to look weird or too charismatic or too, you know, whatever. Well, first of all, I think you're partnering with the spirit of control, which is not going to bring any good fruit. So there's that. But then the second thing is, to me, that speaks to your lack of trust in Jesus. Like your lack of trust in him to move in people's lives.

lives and to change them or to help them. There's some people, maybe they're just weird from their personality. There's some people that maybe are kind of weird because there's some things going on that they need help with. They might need healing. They might need deliverance, like whatever it is. But if you, in an attempt to have something polished and pretty, end up pushing all of that out, well, then what even is the point of your church, really?

Like, are we not here to reach the loss and to heal? Not all churches are. Yeah. I mean, that is the unfortunate thing. But I do think, I will say on a positive note, with the traveling and going to a lot of different churches and a lot of different places, a lot of different denominations, I am extremely hopeful about the church and the world right now. I see God doing powerful things. I see God moving in an incredible way. Churches that have been one way for a long time, he's rocking those places, shaking things up and changing it.

And it's incredible to me. And I think that people, this has been probably one of the greatest blessings of the curse of COVID in 2020 was people's spiritual eyes being open to see. Again, what we've been talking about, our battles are not against flesh and bud, but principalities and powers that there is an enemy out there who hates us. And there's a, there's a lot more happening than what we see with our physical eyes. And as people are waking up to that more and more and also seeing, I think even the, how cunning the enemy is in infiltrating into different things and realizing, wow, this is so much more. And it's causing people to have to go, I have to be. Like the survival is, I am in my word. I am praying.

I am worshiping. I am showing up to church. Like, this is how we fight our battles. I was just going to say. This is a reality. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, man, full circle.

Yes. That's, it's so true, though. I mean, it is truly, and I was telling you how we have Dr. Laura Sanger coming and Viggy Joy. And this is kind of the conversation I want to have with them. It's just like, how do we fight the battle? Yeah. You know, you know, like, it's easy. The layup is, well, pray, you know.

read your words, but like, there's, there's a strategy. There's strategy, yes. Yes. Like, you can go into a video game that has warfare and fighting and stuff, and you can just throw things randomly. And every time you want to get killed and you learn the hard way, you inch your way across a battlefield on a video game because every time you went to another step, you got blown up.

Like, oh, there's a mind there, there's mine there. Or you can learn a game plan, learn a strategy, and navigate through that, maybe getting blown up three times. instead of 50, you know? But like even in the warfare, you're going to get hit, you know? And that's the thing. That's the thing that I feel that you hear people say, I don't know why God let this happen. It's like it's called warfare. The more you come to understand every day of your life, you're stepping on a battlefield. And like you said, there is an enemy seeking your destruction. They hate you. If you can actually come to understand that and believe that, that when you get hit hard, you're not surprised.

You're just like, oh, next time I'll learn the sucker punch is there. Okay. Yeah. And though it's not fun, like I was telling you how we're kind of going through things here with the team. Like, it's not fun. Right. But we're learning, you know, and we're not just walking oblivious to the fact that, you know, oh, everything should be roses because Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I was going to say that whole idea of, you know, like the why did the bad things happen. And that was actually the thing that kept me from God for so long. I had multiple stepfathers and I was abused by those set fathers. And my mom married a Christian. And so this is my third stepfather.

And he was incredible and a wonderful man that, like, showed me truly who Jesus was and the love of Jesus before I really knew that. But up to that point, I was very resistant to surrendering to Jesus because I could not comprehend even hearing about a God who supposedly loved me, but then allowed these things to happen to me as a child. And even after I fully surrendered my life to Jesus, this was still something in me that I needed reconciled. So my my kind of story was I got saved, but then it kind of went through these years of inner healing and deliverance. Just, I feel like the work of the cross in my life and just kind of getting rewired from the inside out. But this was a big hurdle in front of me. And it's funny because

in churches, they don't like to talk about it a lot. It's uncomfortable. And not everyone has answers. And the pastors that kind of try to come up with answers and to give answers in my experience, they never satisfied. They never felt like answers that made me go, oh, yeah. Yep, that's it. Okay, feel great now. Wonderful. You know, like, there's never anything like that. I just had to, like, wrestle through this with, with the Lord. And one of the most, like, significant moments of my journey with this with God was I had kind of been going through this inner healing kind of step by step. And I had tried to, you know, I had to forgive my dad, forgive my mom, forgive these men, you know, forgive all these people. But I had been holding inside of me that. this anger and this rage at God, the, at the why did you let this happen? And I think it was religion that made me hold this in. Like, it's, it's not okay. Like, you can't be mad at God or whatever. And I had it in my heart that I wanted to please God. And so there's this kind of mindset on me that, like, shove that down. You can't look at that. You can't talk about that.

And in this moment with this woman who was praying with me and helping me through the inner healing, she said, Kim, I'm going to invite Jesus into the room. And something in me just was like, no, no. I just was mad. And I just started yelling, no, no, I don't want Jesus in here. And I had my eyes shut. I'm crying. And I suddenly see this picture in my mind.

And I can see, I see myself in this room. And I see Jesus walking in the room. And all of a sudden, this anger and this pain that I had been holding in for so long, it was like this thing bubbling up inside of me that I could not hold in any longer. And it just came rushing out of me just all of my rage and anger. It was like the greatest of my wrath I had saved for him. And all of my wrath was pouring out on Jesus. I hate you. You did not protect me. You couldn't have been there. You know, I was just so angry and so so hurt. And the wild thing that happened was in this moment, as I'm saying all this, Jesus showed me, you know, God's not confined to time

like we are. He's a God who was and is and is to come. He doesn't live in time like us. He's the inventor of it. Exactly. And so I suddenly saw this picture of Jesus in the garden, you know, before he's in the garden and he's praying, God, if there's any other way that, you know, this take this cup from me, you know, and he's about to go to the cross. And in that moment, he's also here with me. And I'm shouting at him. I hate you. I don't want anything to do with you. You abandoned me. And he, in that same moment, going, okay, I'm going to go to the cross, choosing to go to the cross and die for me. Now I'm going to do something that I don't want to do too. Wow.

in the moment when I'm rejecting him, I'm essentially even rejecting what he's about to do. I'm rejecting him. I'm pushing him aside. And he still chose to go to the cross, even knowing that I would say, I hate you and reject that. And he still did it. And that was the thing that broke me. It wasn't an answer to the why. Why did these things happen?

Why don't you stop these things? it was a different answer. It was the answer I needed. It was the, you still chose me. You still loved me. You still want me. And he could take my wrath. And that's, that is what he took on the cross. He took all the, all the wrath. And that was a powerful moment for me. And what completely changed. I feel like this is even where a lot of my conviction about, about worship and about prayer and about relationship with him comes from. You know, I don't, I don't need all the answers. I don't have all the answers. I think one day I'll get to heaven and I'm excited about the conversations that him and I will have, you know. But the fact that he chose me, he loves me even in the midst of my rejection.

And I could even see on the other side how even that and that experience, everything I walk through has just shaped something inside of me. And how precious is it that I get to bring something to Jesus that costs me something? It's not easy to worship when you kind of carry this, you know, like I feel like I've gotten so much freedom and I've forgiven and all this stuff, but I feel like I still have these scars, you know what I mean, of what I walked through in my life, that it's like no matter what I do, I can't really seem to totally get rid of these scars. But sometimes I'm like, maybe that's how it's supposed to be. And maybe the fact that I keep choosing him, even when I don't have all the answers or have it completely sorted,

or the fact that I get to bring him worship that's costing me because I'm choosing to worship even in the midst of that, in the midst of the pain. I mean, this is what the sacrifice of praise is. When we get to heaven, there will be no sacrifice. There won't be any hardship. You know, it's going to be easy and wonderful to worship. But here on earth, this is the only time that we get to bring what I think is so costly and valuable and precious to the Lord. When we talk about that sweet fragrance, that aroma, the worship of the saints, the

worship that costs us something, that we are choosing to worship even in the midst of our frustration or anger or are not understanding or are not having all the answers or not being healed yet or whatever it is. My stepdad, he ended up dying of Parkinson's and he declared that Jesus is his healer and asked him to heal him all the way up till he died. And he never stopped worshipping, never stopped saying Jesus is my healer and asked him to heal him. He did receive his healing just on the other side, not here. that was, even that was a huge testament to me of like how we spend our lives here and what we spend our lives doing, bringing something like that to Jesus that costs us something. And what if that is

the whole point? The whole point is not to just, I mean, we have the fruits of the spirit, but we, you know, the love and the joy and the peace, the patience, but man, we have to fight for those. Do you know what I mean? So what if the whole point is, for the, us in this journey to just keep bringing something to Jesus that that costs us something and that's precious and sacred and to keep choosing him in the midst of everything else. And what if that is the big test? You know, we get our faith tested in so many places, but what if the big test is, well, you still keep choosing him?

Can you worship him in the midst of all of that? Can you keep showing up in the midst of it all? It's like literally, you know, living your life as a living sacrifice to him. And because there's a lot of sacrifice like of the flesh that comes with that, you know? Yeah. And it could be something so simple as, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to think of an example. Like saying no to something that isn't wrong, but it's just not what you should be doing in the moment, you know. but you see it and reap the spiritual reward of that

when you make the right decisions on certain things. We're talking a lot about worship, and you kind of referenced this a little bit earlier. I was wondering if we could kind of talk about some of these things because I believe that seeing the supernatural spill out into this reality is something that could obviously build your faith, my faith, as I see it, but also people who, you know, get to the opportunity to hear miraculous things or just moments that, like, God showed up.

Sometimes, a lot of times, that's the kind of stuff that pushes people over that line, you know? Because, like, people, a lot of times people, you know, they all start, have a different starting point. And some people are really scarred by life and it takes a little longer to get to that point. But some people are just walking the line. They're like, I want to believe. but I got it, something's got to shift, you know, and sometimes hearing somebody's testimony of when God showed up during a period of time,

and you shared a little bit of that with yourself, have you seen, like, during worship moments where it's like undeniable, whether it's people being healed to, like, who was it? It was a long time ago, I was in Bible college when I heard this first. I forget what singer it was, they were singing and they recorded the angel singing.

Oh, Jason Upton. Yes. Like, things like that. You're doing worship and stuff. I'm asking a question. I feel like the answer should be, it's probably like, yeah, of course. But like, you know, could you share any of that? Yeah.

Yes. Unless you, unless, you know, like angels singing. I mean, that's kind of hard. You know, that has happened a couple of times. It's funny because I don't know if this is my. personality or maybe just most people, but when it's first something like that is happening, that's like you recognize something's going on and you start to doubt. You become kind of skeptical. Like, am I really hearing that? Is that really what it is? Personally, I would rather just err on

the side of faith and just like, yes, this is what I experienced. This is real. This is, you know, than to never believe and never experience anything. But yes, we have had times in worship where, you know, we use in ears. And so everything is coming through here. But I will often, especially in kind of a more free-flowing moment of worship, and I love to hear the people singing. And I feel like that's so much more beautiful than even what's coming from the stage. And sometimes I want to hear what's happening in the room.

So I'll often just pull them out or at least even just one so I can hear. And there have been a couple of times that I whipped around really fast because I heard a voice singing, a beautiful voice singing so close to me. And then nobody's there. And then I think I hear an angel singing. I think possibly, yes. Yes, you know. And I think that's actually something that happens a lot in worship. I don't know that people are as aware.

There's so many stories of people being spontaneously healed. There was this one. I've never forgotten this one. There was a man who was addicted to smoking. And he had wanted to be free of this addiction for a long time and had tried different stuff. And it never worked. And at the end of the church service, they were asking about, you know, if there were any testimonies of what, let me back up.

They had ministry time at the end of the service and we're praying for people. And then they were asking, like, are there any testimonies? Like, has God touched you? But this man, he came up and he said, well, actually, in worship, something happened. And he said he literally felt like there were physical chains on him. And it's like he felt them just drop off of him. And he wasn't even thinking about this addiction or anything. He was literally just worshiping.

But suddenly these chains drop off. And it kind of startled him because he could just like feel it like physical. Like it's like almost as if there were real chains on him. And he knew instantly that it was the addiction to cigarettes. And he said, I mean, I don't feel the craving. normally I'd be itching to get out of here to get out and get a cigarette and he's like, but I don't feel that. I don't feel at all.

And I believe that God healed me. I believe that he set me free. And he came back the following day because we were doing a conference. And he said, he testified again and said, I have not had a cigarette, but I have not had a craving. But he's like, I also don't feel any kind of withdrawal, you know, when you're pulling, you're coming off an addiction. He's like, I have no symptoms of withdrawal.

Like, I am totally free. And this was such a powerful testimony, but the thing that made it stand out in my mind so much was the look on his face. The, it was such a genuine, it was almost like a child when their dream has just come true. This like, you know, Christmas morning, you know, I don't know, like just this incredible joy and gratitude, but also this like awe that God did this, that he wasn't even, he even had mentioned, like, I wasn't even asking for this. He just did it. He just did this for me. And that really, like, stuck in my mind, the look on his face and the genuine heart, but also the, like, man, the kindness of God that he's like, watch this. I'm going to answer. I'm going to.

answer the prayer that you've not even prayed yet, simply because I love you and I care. There was, my mom actually was in the crowd. It was a Jesus culture event that we're doing, and I was doing worship. My mom was out there, and she had brought some of my younger siblings and some of their friends and some other people. Well, there was a boy who was sitting in front of them in the front row, and in the middle of worship, he just starts. sobbing uncontrollably. And my mom, she kind of looked around like, is there another youth leader that's with this boy and didn't see anyone? So she just goes over to check in with him and, you know, pray with him. Is he okay? You know what's going on? And come to find out, he had a brother

who had died. And he had this, he was wrestling through the pain of losing his brother. and some anger at God and things like that. But the bigger thing was he was really concerned wondering if his brother knew Jesus and went to heaven. And he was really like upset about this and was more afraid that that wasn't the case. And in the middle of worship, and it was kind of a similar thing, he wasn't necessarily like thinking about this or asking God for this. But in the middle of worship, he suddenly saw a vision of his brother with Jesus.

and he felt like Jesus was speaking to him and saying, it's okay, he's with me. And it just completely wrecked this boy. And he, I guess he didn't even like realize like how much he kind of needed that and needed an answer from the Lord in that. And it's funny because it's not a healing or freedom from the addiction like the other guy. But it was again another instance of God just showing up. to move on his people and let them encounter him in this way that they're needing, whatever it is that they're needing.

There's been like some wild things in worship when I can feel like a, it feels like we're on the verge of something. You can feel it in the room, this anticipation, okay? We're pushing into something and you feel this, ooh, it's like something is kind of stirring and you feel the anticipation. We're like about to break through to something, you know. And I have seen it like a, like when the breakthrough comes, it's like a wave in the room. And it's crazy when that happens. That's interesting. From the stage, it's like you see it will start somewhere. And it's like it just moves across the room and people just start reacting.

It's, you know, and it's all different, whether it's like in tears or praise or shout or, or just a yell and you see people falling over it. Like it's, and it's weird. I wonder sometimes, like, why isn't it just an instantaneous, like a something? And that does happen sometimes. But then there's these other times when you literally can see it. And I always wonder, like, is that Jesus? I mean, is he like walking through the room right now?

And it's just following where he's walking, where he's moving. Like, I don't, I, again, it's not something I could, I don't even know if I'd want to try to give an explanation or definition. All I can say is, I have seen it. And it's powerful when it happens and when it moves. In foreign countries, my favorite things is when suddenly we hit this moment in worship. And it's almost as if the people forget that I'm there. They forget that I'm an English speaker and singer. And they suddenly just start worshiping in their own language.

and it's powerful and it's so beautiful. And it's also like there's a sudden, we don't care about the stage or the lights or we don't care about the setup. We're like all in this moment together. It feels like a tiny glimpse of what I think heaven might be like. You know, all these voices and languages just worshiping Jesus. We're all there together. I feel like it's just like a small little taste of that. that that's really powerful.

I'll tell you what you're saying there is something that I think about a lot. Because God is so infinite, he is infinite. So I don't even say so infinite. Infinite is infinite, you know. Any taste of what we get here in this existence on this side of eternity is just a minute scale of his, the essence of his being. Yeah. But because he's infinite, when we're standing in his presence, I don't even think we're going

to be able to experience all of him at one time because he's infinite. So every moment of standing in his presence will be a brand new moment than what we just experienced. So like the way I try to describe it is, like, I try to think like the most spiritually in tune I felt during worship or a moment in my life where it was just like I felt like I was never closer to God than in that moment, that's like nothing, you know? And it's just like, if anybody who can relate to that, it should give them goosebumps as to what's waiting for them, you know? Like, it's just like, you have no idea, you know? It's absolutely wild. I mean,

in our church, this happened a couple of years ago. I was very uncomfortable with it. No, I was. That was fine. But there was a several week period. where there were people in the church going to pastor afterwards and saying, did you see a light up on stage when worship was going? Or I think even when he was preaching. In fact, I think it started with him. Now that I think about it, if I remember correctly, he was, it was when he was getting ready to preach.

And he was, it was like weird because he's like pastor, like he's getting ready to preach. And all of a sudden he's like quiet. And he just kind of looks down at the ground, like he looks down to the ground next to the pulpit. And he looks at the pulpit and he looks around. And if I remember correctly, like, he didn't even, like, say anything at the moment. But later, like, he told us or something that he was standing there and it's like this,

this light was, like, coming down. And he, like, he saw it. But he was like, what? He was looking for an explanation to it, right? It was something like that. But, like, that kind of, like, I think jump started several weeks where people during worship were seeing these, these, just like, this light. You know, I don't know if it was like, you know,

like beams of light or what, but like, it wasn't, like, I don't want to say it was like orbs like, you know, ghosts walking around the stage during worship. But like, it was, it was interesting, you know. And I go to a church that, it's a small church. It's been around for 127 years now. It's been around a long time. But they, they, it's, it's a large building, but COVID did a number and there's not a ton of people there now and a lot of older people. but when you hear that, and I can verify, like, I told my pastor, I have never been part of a church that has so much gray hair, but it's so powerful during worship. Like, there's people there, they worship. That's amazing.

And it's crazy. I will say, I've never shared this publicly. I've talked about this one-on-one with people, but it was an experience that my husband and I had. and at a church, I'm not even going to say the church, but at a church, people were talking about, they just kept calling it a glory cloud. And if you read like in the Old Testament, remember when they were being led by fire at night and a cloud by day. And we see clouds of sorts and God a lot throughout the Bible.

And basically, like we were hearing that it was like in worship, this cloud just kept showing up in the room. and it's, you know, they, it was such a thing where they made sure, like, there's no fog machines on, nothing like that. They had, like, full lights on because they, they don't, is it lights? Like, you know, at first it's like they're trying to figure out something's going on. They're not actually even thinking it's like a spiritual thing. And there was like this, like gold, like gold flex in the cloud. So we're hearing this. And my husband and I, like, while we've had lots of supernatural experiences,

and we totally, you know, we're definitely more believers than we are probably skeptics, but we're a little bit like, well, I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions. And I wouldn't even, I had some people ask me about it because I had some familiarity with the church. And I was like, I can't comment on this. I don't know. I haven't been there.

Well, we went. And we went just kind of probably a little bit more on the skeptical side, even though that's not really our personalities much, but probably a little bit more on that side. And worship started, and we were sitting in the second row up at the front. And the pastor, he reaches and he touches me. I had my eyes closed and I was just like in worship in the moment. And he just puts his hand. He's like, Kim, look.

And I looked up. And sure enough, there was what I can only describe as a cloud. and it was on this side of the room and just started moving across the room this way. And I could see what looks like kind of something in it, like a movement within the cloud, but I can't totally tell. And then pretty soon it was right here over us

and then around us. And I could see what looked like the movement inside of it looked like these like flex of gold. And the weird thing was they would move like this way. It wasn't like dropping. wasn't like dropping. It was like moving in ways that doesn't seem natural to move. And my experience and my husbands, the moment we saw it, I felt the fear of God. I couldn't even look at it much.

Like I saw it. And then I just, my head was down and my heart was racing. And I felt the fear of God. like I've never, ever felt before. And I instantly even started thinking, is there anything I should repent of? Like, is there, am I clean hands? Like, almost like a fear of like, could I be struck down right now if I don't have clean hands?

And my husband felt the same. We're not even talking to each other in this moment. It was later. And I could see, I knew he was feeling the same thing. He was like me. And I was even, when it had come over us, and was all around us, I felt like I wanted to be flat on my face on the floor. And I was kind of trying to hold myself up because there's so many people.

There wasn't even room for me to be on the floor. And I was kind of trying to hold myself up. But I couldn't, it felt like a weightiness on us. And I did notice that there were people around like trying to film on their phone. And I felt furious at those people. I thought you, it was wrong. That was a wrong reaction. And I couldn't understand either, like, how do you not feel terrified, like I feel terrified?

And I want to be clear, I did not feel terrified like darkness or, like darkness, or evil. Holy trembling. Holy trembling. I literally, I felt like almost as if I was transported back to the Old Testament. And I'm encountering something that, you know, this pastor, he used to say, well, it's signs that make you wonder. What else do we? I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. And, you know, I've heard, there was a lot of, you know, word got out. There's a lot of people talking about it and I had some people asked him about it and there's a lot of people I just wouldn't say anything. I just, I wouldn't even tell them about my own experience because I thought the way you're talking about it, like I know you don't believe and I don't know that you would

believe me. I don't need people to believe me. But that is the reality of what happened. And, you know, the Bible says that we judge something by the fruit. And for me, I left that place with a greater fear of God and also a sense of my mission, what I said at the start of our conversation, prepare the bride. Prepare the bride. It's real. It's true.

Jesus, how it all happens, I don't really care too much. People argue over the revelation and the pre-trip, post-trip. Who cares? We know where we're going. Does it really matter? But anyways, just being. in a state of this bride is prepared. A passionate Jesus-loving warrior.

And in that moment, this is the other thing I thought. My husband and I, we talked about this for days. We were so disrupted. It was really messing with our theology a little bit as well, you know, just a little like, that was real and that was crazy. But something that we talked about was we said, I feel like there's some judgment coming. God's holy judgment. I think he's going to start cleaning house. And wouldn't you know that, you know, it's only here a short time later.

We see a lot of exposure happening with a lot of different pastors and ministers and leaders. I kind of wonder if that was a sign. Maybe God just letting us know, like, what's coming. I'm here. Yeah. I'm paying attention. It's time to clean house, you know. Time to pay the piper. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's what we talked about. That's what we thought. Again, I don't like speaking about these things as matter of fact. I'm holding my hands loosely going, well, this way I experience. This is how I perceived it. This is what I think. These are my thoughts about it.

Yeah. But I think it's important to have that kind of perspective with this stuff because I do that with a lot of stuff. I mean, the only thing that I'm unshakable on is who Christ is, right? And that's when you're talking about the revelation and post-trib, pre-trip, mid-trib, all the trips. Like, it's like, I've really come to the conclusion that, you know, listen, I'm a college Bible school dropout. You know, like, I'm not a theologian. Heiser was way smarter than me, and I saw him debate people.

And both arguments were very seemingly valid in my tiny little mind, you know, so that I don't walk into the room thinking, oh, I know exactly anything, you know? And so I think it's important to have that kind of, this is what I experienced, the definition of the experience. I don't know, you know. And you kind of, you hit on something that it's interesting. We'll take it back into worship for a second here just because you see this cloud and you're having this experience. and it's a holy experience. It's like a fearful experience of God's presence. And you look to your left or right

and you see somebody trying to catch it on video. And I feel like that's a mirror situation that you see probably in worship too where I've been there where my pastor who, you know, he sings very well. He actually was part of a Southern gospel band. And he'll be singing and his daughter sing. and it's just worship's going.

And he'll be like, the Holy Spirit is moving right now. I can feel it. And I'm like, I don't feel a thing right now, pastor. I don't feel a thing. In fact, I'm quite grumpy this morning. But like, it's crazy how people can be in the presence of God and somebody else can be oblivious to the presence of God, you know? And like, it's even crazier to me, like having not gone through that situation that,

like everybody's seeing the same thing and your experience is I just want to fall flat in my face and say please don't wipe me off the earth right now and they're just like yo selfie yeah yeah it's crazy I know that's actually something that's like bothered me for a long time because I can't I don't understand that I don't understand I even thought even for a moment when it was happening like I was like well God smite them right now like they're just going to like disappear, you know, I don't know. It just, I, I can't really wrap my mind around that. But I will say, and I don't, I don't say this like arrogantly. I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm a blunt person. I will say that. But I would say that I am probably experiencing

depths with Jesus that those people can't fathom. You know what I mean? So, like, I think it's kind of a bummer for them. We're all offered the same thing. Like, we could all experience a really radical relationship with Jesus. But whether we all have that or not is more hinging on us and our willingness to go there with the Lord. It's like not all Christians are on the same level. Christian gets, it's like you're a Christian, you accept Christ for who he is, you're Romans 10, 9, but there are levels to this game, suckers. You know, like there are levels to this. And I think that's, I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, there are people who are in the same building.

They're coming through the same doors because of the same reason, but they're not where everybody else is at. You know? I'm sorry. I'll use this example real quick. I met a guy at a church I used to go to in Pennsylvania. He had just come to being a Christian. And he was going to church probably for a couple years.

and I was still a truck driver, and I wound up delivering to where he works. He was my receiver. And he seemed like he was kind of grumpy at church. He was extra grumpy at work. Like this guy was just living, walking in misery all the time. And it really kind of for me, it put me in a spot where I was like, I had to contemplate things. And I was like, that doesn't mean that he's not saved by grace. It just means that he's not walking in the same grace that I'm walking in, you know? Like, he's just, he's not there yet. He hasn't let go of past hurts and scars. He hasn't, uh, accepted the power of Christ in his life as others have, right? So, still just a major work in progress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, um, you know,

I, I actually really think that, uh, you know, for the longest time, CCM, which is like mainstream Christian music, it, that was kind of like, you know, it's, wait, you hear on the radio and all that stuff. Well, when worship kind of started to like really take off, which I feel like I was at the beginning of that when it really started, well, me back up and say for us, for Jesus culture, a kid took one of the videos and put it on YouTube. My little brother, who's nine years younger than me, he called me and he said,

Sissy, you're on YouTube. And I said, what's YouTube? I didn't heard of it. So this is like way back. This is like when it, you know, still, so new and he explains it to me. And I was, I was a little bit disturbed that I was on the internet. Like, in my generation, this is like, you don't want to be on the internet. That's bad.

Like, no, don't do that, you know. And then it went viral, which again, back then, viral was a word for sickness. It wasn't what we used for videos. But that's what it did. That's what happened. And it really launched everything out there. And everything really changed after that. But my point is this.

What I feel like happened and what I see happened was that the Christian music industry, which was probably struggling a bit, you know, sees suddenly there's this other form of Christian music over here that people really love and respond to and are drawn to. And in fact, there's people that are like, I would rather have this because I can experience God through this. I can encounter God through this. Like there's something real authentic about this. And it's, you know, we could maybe break it down into simple like, you know, singing to God versus

singing about God. You know, there's just something more engaging, you know, it's powerful. There were lives being impacted by this. And so the industry sees that. And they honestly probably saw dollar signs. You know, it's not just, I don't really believe for one second that the industry was like, oh, you know what? Yes, we want people to encounter Jesus. Let's let's help them get this out there. And I think it was, it's dollar signs. This is, it's a product. Consumers want this.

Let's get this out there. So worship kind of made this transition into the music industry. But what people, I don't think, have totally waken up to see yet is that when worship music made the transition into the industry, it wasn't just that it went into the industry. It was that the industry leaked into the church. There's only like, there's like this exchange that happened. And suddenly, the industry is almost dictating to the church what worship is, what it should look like, what your stage should look like, what songs you should do, how your band should be, what instruments you should have, like how your background vocals should sound, like every tiny little thing. But in that whole process, it turned so much of the church into spectators rather than participants. And I really think this is why part of it is like the age we live in, you know, with social media and everyone being attached to their phones.

But part of it is that we have literally kind of taught people that this is, it's a performance. You come in and you're, you're spectating. You're watching this performance on a Sunday morning and it's even oftentimes like set up that way versus I'm here to participate in something. I'm here to be a part of the body and to bring something to Jesus. And I think that's why, just another reason why we see people having these very blatant, blatantly different reactions to the presence of God, to worship, to things happening. One time I was doing a set with my friend John Mark McMillan, and we'd only like just got into the worship. And he just stops, stops a band, stops everyone.

And he goes, you guys, I don't want to be like, like a jerk here, but I just want to point out, like, all of you are holding up your phones trying to capture a moment, but in the process of trying to capture this moment, you are missing the moment. And you could just see one by one, people just like putting your phone away. And there's like one guy up at the front still, you know, always one. And his friend's like nudging him. Like, come on. Like everyone's looking at you. Put your phone down. He's like, I don't read rooms. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And so they, I thought that was, such a simple and just perfect way of putting it. Like, y'all, you are, you're trying to capture this

moment, but in the process, you are missing this. You have an opportunity right now to, to encounter Jesus, to have your life change in the presence of God. And instead, you're, you're trying to capture on a phone. And it's really unfortunate. So I do think, I feel a little bit of a sense of responsibility as a mother and someone in this industry for a long time of, man, I'm thankful for all the buckets of testimonies that we've had over the years. But I don't think this thing went where it was supposed to go. And I think there needs to be a course correction and kind of a turning back to something else. You, I said this before to you, it does not, like on the surface, that's not something that you should be saying, right?

Right. Like it doesn't benefit you monetarily or fame-wise to urge the church to look in the mirror and shift gears a little bit, right? I mean, it would be much more beneficial for you to be like, oh, I'm a musician. This is what I do for a living, so let's make it about me. What you're saying, and I don't remember the context totally, but it's a similar messaging that Francis Chan had years ago. You know, he was a pastor of a mega, mega church. And he just put it down and started doing home churches. And he's like, and he said someone almost identical to what you said.

It was just like, I think we went sideways somewhere. And I think there's a way to do this that we missed. Yes. And I am appreciative of leaders in the faith in the church, whether it's worship or pastors or, you know, authors or whatever, that are willing to put themselves. out like that, you know, because if not, then it just becomes a bunch of what the world would say, oh, you're just a church hurt Christian complaining about something. And it's like, know your role, shut up and you don't know what you're talking about, you know, if it was really that bad, so-and-so on stage you'll be saying this, you know? And here you are and you're just like, you know,

there's good, there's, and there's bad. And, you know, we need to be able to be honest with ourselves about that. And I think it's important. I really do. It's just, I think it's a rarity, to be honest with you. And what we were talking about before and stuff, money does get in the way. Yes. You know, and it becomes a deciding thing for people. But if you can just live your life, like, your job is not to podcast or to do music, is to glorify God. And your job is to pursue Christ.

Yes. Like on an individual level, which will then spill over into a public, corporate level, whatever that is. but it starts with us, singularly focusing on Christ. If that is the mission of your life, then it's no longer, well, what do I got to do for the money side of things? Yes. Because at the end of the day, God's got that. Yes.

You know? Yeah. If we start looking at our finances as if it's something that, it's not something I did to get. It's what God has blessed me with. It's no longer my money to begin with. Yeah. You know what I mean?

So we're not worried about it. Yeah. Yeah. This is why, you know, I said earlier, like I don't, I don't always feel like the typical because I wasn't trying to do this. I wasn't trying to become a worship leader or write songs or anything else or record. Like none of that was like my plans at all. But I see how the Lord was preparing me for this. And the funny thing is when I look at my life before I was ever on a stage, I don't, I don't think I would have even recognized that he was preparing me for a stage or preparing me for what I'm

doing. But it was just that intense focus on him. And I'm really thankful for that time. even though sometimes it's like really hard, I felt a little bit lost and a little bit like, you know, I feel like everyone around me knew what they're called to or what they're, you know, supposed to do with their life. And I just literally felt like I don't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life. I just, I just feel pretty obsessed with just my relationship with Jesus and just growing that, you know, and I'm just hoping that, you know, he'll just figure it out for me, you know? And he did. But he was, he was building something inside of me that now I see, like those convictions and things inside of me, I needed those to get me through this.

I think that honestly, I think the industry would have taken me out had it not been for the strong convictions and these kind of foundational pillars that were built inside of me before it's ever on a stage. And this is the other like scary part to me is, you know, your talent can promote you or elevate you to a position or a stage in this case before you. your internal world is ready to handle that. And this is why there are a lot of, you know, my peers who could have gone through things and fallen and everything else. But it's a lot of times it's because their talent was so much bigger than their, than their internal world. And there

wasn't enough built up on the inside to sustain and to walk through that, which is why the timing of the Lord is also like so important. Like, don't go on that stage until he puts you on that stage. Don't let your talent even propel you into that before he's saying be on that stage. And I can remember even before I was ever on a stage and I'm just allowing the Lord to build these things up inside of me. There was actually this, it was a dream that I had. Have you ever had a dream that when you wake up, you feel like it was like an encounter? Like it was real. Like it wasn't just a dream. It was something else. Because it was. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I had this dream. I was in this room and I heard this music and it sounded like instruments I couldn't really identify.

But the music sounded, the only word I could use to describe it was the music sounding kind of twisted. Like it wasn't, I would not call it beautiful music, but it sounded twisted. And I heard this voice say, I could give you songs. And I was like, what? And I'm like looking around like, who said that? And I suddenly see what I would describe as a man emerging kind of from this dark corner towards me. Did you ever see the Pirates of the Caribbean movie, the one where there was like the guy that came up out of the ocean and he had all these like sea urchins and things like stuck all over him, you know? Terrifying.

So it was like that except it was instruments. He had these instruments like all almost like he was made of these instruments. And they all looked old, like things. I knew their instruments, but I didn't know like what they were. And they looked like just very old and from somewhere else or something. And then he said it again, I could give you songs. And then instantly I knew inside of me, you, this is not the Lord. And you are offering something I do not want.

And immediately, I didn't even know what to say or do in that moment. And this is the other funny thing. I wasn't thinking. It was like he knew my destiny before I did, this guy, weird instrument guy. And I called out to Jesus. Jesus, because I suddenly got a little afraid, like I don't know what to do or what to say. I just know I don't want this. And when I called out to Jesus, that's when I woke up.

And I wrote this down in my journal. And as I'm journaling about this, I even wrote. wrote, like, does this mean something for my future and for what God's called me to? And then I said, I think I need to remember that it's only him. He is the only one who can give me what I need. And I can't look anywhere else for what I need to do what he's asking me to do. And I wrote these down. And I look back at that time and I'm just, again, I never, in that moment, I never could have connected the dots. I didn't know what I would be doing with my life. life. But he was just putting these moments, these things, putting something inside in me to build

what was needed for what was ahead, which is why we shouldn't even despise when we're in the really hard seasons or the desert seasons or anything else because we don't actually know what's up ahead and what he might be forging and building inside of us that we're going to need that we'll prepare us for whatever's coming. Where in the timeline was that again for you? So we're, That was before I was on a stage, I was in California. I was like 20 years old. Wow. And I hadn't like I wasn't doing like worship yet or anything.

I was just still going through my healing process and figuring my life out. Wow. Wow. So are you from, I don't know, because I know, I know you've listened to some of the episodes and stuff, but there's an episode that I came out with last year. Actually, it's the episode that I was telling you about earlier that I had been working on and we dropped it. The spiritual warfare kicked in and everything. It's all about recruitment by these entities.

And what you just described was like, yeah, like that. It's like that. Yeah. And, you know, you didn't even get to the point where you said something like, what do you mean? Show me or what is this? There was no curiosity. He was like, I'm out, you know?

Yeah. Which I've seen, I've talked to lots of people who've gone through similar situations and that's a very similar reaction. People are like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I've talked to this one guy was a witch being recruited and he said no. He was like, I am not, whatever this is. That's not above my pay grade, right? But the musical side of it, do you think that that could have been.

been Satan himself? I mean, being... Yeah. I mean, I've wondered, even like the instruments and everything, it was really, yeah, I do think that's very possible. Because that's very much in his character and wheelhouse. Well, you know, have you ever been to, so you said you were in Washington, where have you been to Seattle to the music? I didn't get it that far. So there's this, I guess you call it museum in Seattle. They call it something music experience or something. But anyway, you know, back in the 90s, the grunge rock and everything that came out of that area in Seattle and everything. So there's a lot of like Cobain and like a bunch of relics and things and stuff like that in there.

But there's all there's this spot where you can walk through. Like if you heard about the, what do they call it, the club of 27 or something like that, all these, especially a lot of music artists that all died at the age of 27. But all of them have these stories of an entity of sorts, a spirit coming to them. at some point before their careers took off and basically saying, like if you will give your soul to me or yourself or whatever, I don't know exactly the wording of how they ask, then I will make you famous.

I will give you songs. I will give you melodies. I'll give you money. Like I will do all this. And they did. And in this museum in Seattle, you can read their accounts. You can read about it.

Yes. And they've got stories. And they even have like some like pictures of like like when they actually like journaled it, I guess themselves like talking about this experience, this encounter with this spirit or entity. I think there's different verbiage that they use. But they did do that. And then ironically, they all ended up dead at 27. But I think that is actually a real thing. Now at the time when when this encounter happened for me, I was not putting that together.

I didn't know about that. I wasn't thinking about that. I just, the moment that I was having that, I instinctively knew, I do not want this. This is not Jesus. And that's when I called out to Jesus and I woke up and that was it. But now being much older and wiser and on the other side of things, yes, I do. And I do think, I mean, here's another reason why worship is so important. I think the devil just hates it so much that like we we got everything he wanted you know we are made in god's image and we get to worship him and that i think was like part of his job before he you know got cast down yeah so i just i'm like i think that there's probably an insane jealousy and and even greater hatred for those

who worship and for worship and for music and all of those things and so it's like saying it's like i could that. I can do that. Come to my team, you know. So the Club of 27, I had not heard of that. And so you're saying that this is artists, musicians who... Yeah, but I think there's also some actors in there. But they all died at 27. Yes. And it's not 27 of them. It's more than 27? Well, I mean... The 27 is for their age that they died. That's the age. Yes. They all died at the same And do they all have that account or a lot of them have that account? Well, all the ones that I'm talking about that died at 27, the ones that I read, it was like, oh, let's see if I can remember a bunch of it. So it was like Kurt Cobain.

It was Joplin, Janice Joplin. It was, what's the other guy? Jimmy Hendricks. Jimmy Hendricks, yes, that was the other one. There's the whole group of them. Now there are there have been stories of some who say the same thing and they did die but not at 27 is like later. I think one of the actresses was Brittany Murphy. I think she was one of them.

Wow. She was 27 when she went. I don't recall if she had the same story. But yeah, it's funny because when you like look it up on the internet, it's, you know, it's of course like conspiracy theory and there's a lot of different. I've seen all sorts of stuff about it. But fascinating, though, is at this museum. You can actually see in the cases with their relics and things and read about their encounters with this. I mean, at least years ago when I was there, I would assume that the same exhibits are there still.

Man, that makes me actually want to go to Seattle for the first time of life. I think it was what, during COVID when they had the, what was that encampment that they had, they had their own? Oh, yes. That was Seattle, right? Yes, it was. I forget what they called it, though. It's like thugs were like setting themselves as president of this compound in the middle of the street. It's like, whoa, you know, crazy times.

Oh, yeah. But man, that's wild. I didn't know that existed. Yeah. And that connects so many things that I touch on that I kind of just want to go look at this now and read it for myself. Yeah. That is incredible. Yeah.

And it really does show, though, the connection between music and the spiritual realm. Yeah. You know, and there is this side of, like, the fame, like you were talking about the celebrities, the actors and stuff. And maybe we could even throw sports stars into that, too. You know, like, there's all those conspiracies about Kobe and stuff. And I don't know if they're true or not, but people talk about him possibly had made a deal that he was okay with dying young if he got to certain things.

And, you know, the way the new. numerology and how he died and all the weird things. But when it comes to particular music, I mean, we see in the church, the worship, and how we've already established that spiritual warfare. If you think about the idea of war, warfare, there's a counter to that, right? Yeah. And so it's like the enemy, here we are corporately worshiping, edifying God, and that is a weapon. They got their own weapon, too.

and there's a recruitment to, should you accept, I will give you this, that, and the other if you do this for me. I mean, I think this is after my youth with music. But I feel almost embarrassed to say this because I don't know his real, I don't know if I'm going to get the name wrong, but there was a rapper that was really popular not too long ago. It was just like I'm an old guy with the music these days. I think his name was like Juice World.

something like that. Is that right, Jack? Juice World, yeah. And, like, apparently he had done, like, a whole satanic ritual for his fame. Yeah. And he dies young. I don't know if he was 27, but he died. I know he dies young.

Yeah. And it's like, it's those kind of things that you see. It's the counter to what we're spending time talking about. And for people that are watching this, it's like, understand. Like, please understand that you are. spiritual being, living of spiritual existence, and you have a mission here on earth, and it's to glorify God. And there is an enemy out there that's trying to do the exact opposite of that. And you're just a casualty in that war if you don't armor up. You brought up Ephesion 6 for a

reason. Like that is the armor we're supposed to be putting on because you're going into battle. Yeah. That's what this is all about. Yeah. And I just, I've been like on this war cry recently with people and stuff. But I just, I, the show is like, as I go through the process of revelations, it just spills out onto the show.

And that's kind of where I'm at right now. Yeah. In my season, it's just like, golly, I'm waking up every day in the middle of a war. And I'm finally seeing the bombs go off around me and like, ah,

okay. All of some things make sense now. Yes. Yeah. I don't go looking for this stuff. I will say, you know, I'm not,

I'm not like out just like looking for that or, you know, trying to, you know, see something or whatever. It's more just in walking with Jesus, you just run into this stuff. And it's not anything to be afraid of. Jesus has defeated all of that and his precious blood. You know, every time when I say I rebuke that in the name of Jesus.

In the name of Jesus, and those things, they go. And we do have authority over those things. And so I don't think it's anything to be, like, freaked out about or anything like that. I know people kind of have a tendency to be like, oh, you know, but it just, truly, it's not, like I said, I don't think we don't, I don't think it's, I don't know that it's even wise to go looking for it, but certainly you have to be aware that it's there and that you are living in, in this. One of my favorite scriptures, and actually, just the other day in Nashville, we wrote a song about this. I was saying, I've had this scripture in my mind for like the last

year and I can't stop thinking about it. I've just been thinking about it so much. And when I sat down with a couple of my friends. I was like, I feel like this would be a hard song to, or a hard verse to turn into a song. It's a little bit extreme, but I was like, could we attempt it? Can we, you know, do this? But it's Revelation 12, 11, it says, they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives unto death. And I feel like for me, I, this like burns so much in my heart because I feel like this is what he is asking of us, you know, take up your cross and follow me. And this. And this. This is also why our testimonies are so powerful.

And some of the stagnant feeling in the church is just a bunch of Christians who have come so far removed from their testimony. You know, when you get around a new Christian, like brand new, they're so excited. And they want to tell you all about what just happened to them because they were in hell a moment ago. And it is so fresh in them what they have just been rescued from and redeemed from. And it's so powerful. And they're so excited. they're like my favorite people to be around. But I always wonder, like, why aren't we all that way?

Like, why aren't we all as Christians, even if you've been a Christian really long time, like talking with such joy and enthusiasm and excitement over what God has done and what He has saved you from? And our testimonies are so powerful, which is another reason why it is good to talk about these things and what he's doing. We don't need to, I think you said earlier, like sometimes people get a, afraid to talk about the warfare or those things. And we're not talking about it to give attention to it. We're talking about it to say, and look what Jesus did. We're going to be honest about what's going on and what we're in. But we also have all these incredible testimonies that carry us through. And the verses right before that talk about the accusers' anger at the people who are standing before

God testifying. And he's angry about that. And I'm sorry. I read that and it's the first time that I kind of like went like, oh man, he hates our testimonies. And he would love to silence you and have you like not be sharing that or talking about it or even recognizing what Jesus did. But this is why it's so important to have those conversations and to remember what he saved you from. Not just, I'm a Christian. Jesus saved me. Really? Well, what do you save you from? Tell me about it. Tell me your testimony. And when it's like carried close, inside of you, like, and you remember, I remember what it was like before he saved me. I remember the darkness I was in. I remember the pit. I remember the hopelessness I felt.

And then when I remember how he pulled me out of that and saved me, I can't hold back the worship. This is what actually makes worship really easy and helps us even get out of our, like you said earlier, the people are like, I don't feel like this or, you know, whatever. I had a woman one time in Colorado come up to me and she said, well, this worship team here just like doesn't do it for me. Like, I just don't feel it. And I probably could have been a little bit sweeter. I have a tendency to just be really blunt and just say it. And I said, well, you know, here's the funny thing about worship.

It is not about you. And it is not about your feelings. Like your feelings don't actually matter in this moment. Worship is about bringing something to Jesus because he's worthy of that. Like really, in all reality, you should be able to and desire to worship him regardless if this worship team does it for you or not. I said, and the really cool thing is that if you could actually actually be able to, actually discipline yourself to be that way and to bring something to Jesus, you might find that

your feelings and emotions actually change and come into a better alignment. And she just... Okay, hard. Yeah. Hard turn. I know. I felt a little bit bad later. Like, I probably should have said that a little bit more gentle. But I was just, I'm a little bit blunt sometimes. But, but that is a reality. That's true. Like, you know, that's, and it helps when you actually remember what he did. And then your feelings are I do want to worship. I remember what he did. Absolutely. I want to ask you a question that kind of goes back to before we even came in here, but it's going to drive me nuts if I don't

bring this up. So this might seem a little bit of a turn, but I got to ask it. And then we're going to bring it for landing because I don't want you to be late for the airport. When we were talking earlier, I forget what I was talking about, but I referenced to you, I said there's a lot of witchcraft in this area. And you're like, I could tell, or something. like that. And I even told you, I was like, oh, we're going to talk about that. Because I want to know, like, what was it about coming out here that did you, was it something that you felt? Like, could you feel it? And is that something that's typical for you, that you can sense that kind of

stuff? I mean, you said that you saw a witch ashter rejecting in your room. That's spiritual eyes. So, you know, like, what was that all? It's a couple of things or maybe a mixture of things, you know, one is I felt it. I could feel it driving into here. I drove from Nashville. So I don't know this area or this land. I don't think I've ever made that drive. I mean, personally, maybe on a tour bus while I'm sleeping at night, you know, I don't know.

But driving, you know, up the mountains and kind of over and I don't even know if I'm a higher elevation. It feels like a higher elevation here than Nashville. But it's a mixture of things of like when I was coming into the area, I could feel. And it feels to me, it feels like a buzzing and like a confusion. Almost like there's a, I even really struggled last night to go to sleep. I was praying a lot because it's like this almost, to me, I don't know how to describe it. It just feels like a confusion. Like there's a confusion in the air.

And I also recognize it because it's something familiar to me because of where I grew up, I mentioned Ashland. And there's a lot of that there. It has a similar feeling, a similar vibe to put a hippie word out there, you know? Like I pull in, I'm like, oh, I've been in this before. I recognize this, this feeling. And also just my knowledge and understanding of oftentimes they are drawn to high, places. If you are in mountains or hills, they are drawn to that and they are, they live in those areas and practice in those areas. It has significance to them and for for what they, what they do.

I don't know a ton about the specifics as to why. I just know from my own experience and even my childhood and everything else that they are. They are drawn to that and want to be in that. it's not something like I don't I don't I didn't come into here and go oh what a terrible oppressive turning around now yeah it wasn't like that it was like it's it's different here like you pointed out like similar evil sin darkness issues in one coast to the other coast but it's a different spirit it's a different thing a stronghold that's there and same's coming into here It feels completely different in Nashville. Nashville feels shifty to me in a way of like I'm just looking around like this, like

shifting. I honestly, I'd rather be out here dealing with this than the shiftyness I feel there, you know? But it's, yeah. And it's something that it was more of, okay, came in. I feel that as here. I'm not surprised by that. simply even just coming to mountains and the area and pretty typical in my experience for that. But I always, I haven't thought about the fact that like you're here.

I don't think, I think God strategically puts people where they're supposed to be for the bigger picture. I think all of us have a role to play in the bigger picture of what God is accomplishing. here on earth. And so when we find ourselves living in a place like this where there's things going on like this and people from the outside might look and be like, oh, man, of all the places, why? Why would you move here? Why would you choose this? But God must have some plan, some strategy. And there's a role that you play in that. There's a role that the people of God here play in that. I think he simply even just cares about the people here. I think he doesn't want the people here to be living under that and under that confusion.

You could probably go out and talk to people around here and ask them if that's even something that they deal with. Issues in their mind, confusion in their mind. You even mentioned anxiety. When you said that, I was not surprised by that. I feel like even that is a residue of that. that thing. But the good news is like, like you said earlier, we're in this world but not of this world. We don't, we can move through this stuff and not have to succumb to this stuff and we can

live different. Yeah. You know, it's funny you've said that because when I came down here, I thought I was on a retreat mission. You know, like I was leaving the Philadelphia area and I was looking around. me, you know, Philadelphia had a record year. It was over 550 murders. The town that we lived in, which was 40 minutes outside Center City, had 10 from zero, you know? And I was like, one murder was a mile from this way. The other one was half mile that way. And I was like,

I can't raise kids around here. So I was like on this retreat mission. Yes. And I was like, I always thought about East Tennessee, the mountains, beautiful for like 15 years. I remember driving truck thinking about it. And I come down here and I'm like, I'm going to be in a Bible belt. It's conservative culture, people, God-fearing people. It's going to be my people. You know, I'm coming, I'm coming. I'm like, I've been out, I've been out on this battlefield, alone in the wilderness. And I'm now, I found my people, I'm going behind our own lines. I'm going to get a bowl of soup. You know, they're going to nourish me and they're going to take care of me. And, you know, all that's great. And, you know, my church family.

all that, but I didn't realize I was moving to a whole new front line, you know. Yeah. What's crazy, and I'm going to say something that I'm sure Jack knows where I'm going with this, I just found out that, so I was always told that Merkel, I was adopted into that last name, and I was always irritating me. I was like, oh, Merkel, you know, like, because I was always told that that last name meant merchant, and I was like, it's so stupid. Like, I was like, it's so dumb.

I just found out that Merkel, the root of the word, comes from a German word that means guardian of the frontier. And I'm like, oh, I've been grafted into this family line. And it just kind of gave us more of a punch, you know? And so here I am on this new frontier, this new front line uniquely placed. And I do believe that, you know. And that's why I want to, I'm settling in here. I believe that this is where I'm supposed to be.

And I think that we're just getting started. I can't tell you how many times you said something during this conversation. I'm like, oh, this is why she's here. Like, not even for the audience as much as for me. Like sometimes you were saying things for the audience. Sometimes you're saying things like, oh. Like sometimes I do interviews and I'm thinking, that was a good conversation, you know? And sometimes I do conversations and I'm like, oh, that's a good conversation.

I can't wait to go back and listen to it, you know, because I want to remind myself what was said. and why was I feeling a certain way at a certain time? And I feel like this conversation did that for me personally. Because, you know, there's a lot of warfare that we go through, you know, as Christians. Me personally, you, people listening and watching. And I think it's important for us to understand that we're not going through that alone. And when you are going through it, like, if you're walking with the Lord, you're where He, put you.

You know? And so you don't have to second guess like, oh, man. It's not random that you're here. Yeah. Like, oh, there's a lot of witches around here. Yeah. It's like, oh, what are the odds? Yeah.

Well, yeah, what are the odds? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I say this and this is a good thing. I say this in kindness, I think you're a button pusher. And here, especially in the Bible belt, they need that. Because, you know, from the outside, people look and think, oh, it's, you know, full of

Christians. But that's kind of part of the problem. It's a lot of people who they say they're a Christian. They might go to church on Sunday. And they're like, oh, yeah, my whole family's been Christian. But it's more of like a culture that you say you're a part of versus actually, yeah, versus actually living with Jesus, you know, and having real relationship there. But that's why the button pushers are important because you stir things up. It might look like even, you know, controversy and rebellion at times.

but it's not, I think it's just the way that God has wired you as part of what he has put you here to do, you know? And, you know, it's good to stir things up and to ruffle some feathers. And we don't, we can't be stagnant. The church should not be stagnant. The church should not be complacent and a place of this, you know. So I think it's good that we have people being sent into. somewhere like the Bible Belt where it's needing a little bit of that. Dare I say we're missionaries in the Bible belt?

Yeah. Some kind of. It's funny because I, you remember the old cartoon from we were younger, Dexter's Laboratory? Yes. And his sister, the phrase, what does this button do? And I've always felt that way with everything I do. I'm like, I see a big red button.

I can't help but push it, right? But the funny thing is like what you're describing, if I am a button pusher, I'm very uncomfortable doing that. I don't like ruffling feathers, you know? But at the same time, like, I think I do it by accident. I just, because I am me. Just your personality. I think so. Because I find myself a lot of times after conversations with people where I feel like I did that, I'm reviewing it in my head.

And sometimes I'll text, hey, sorry, I didn't mean to whatever, because I feel bad. And it's just like, I hate that crap. You know, I just, I don't want to, I don't want to be that. But maybe that's why I am. Listen, I'm just going to say, I think that the enemy, I think that's the enemy that puts that on people like you, like me. I'm a similar personality, but in a different way. To keep you tame and to keep you boxed in.

because on the other side of that is some really good things. Like, yes, like, especially like my personality. I'm blind. It is important for me to learn some filters and to speak in kindness and to maybe think through some things before I say them. Like, all stuff that my husband has, like, helped me with. God bless him. But there are things that, like, have need to be said and need to be done.

And I can look back at my history even as a worship leader. And had I not been, like, I have been called rebrand. bellious. I have been called out on, you know, pushing boundaries or, you know, things that maybe they didn't want me to, but I did it anyway because I felt that conviction inside me and this is just who I am. And it's funny because I would start to feel that same thing of like, oh, I hate that I'm this way. I don't want to upset. I'm not trying to bother you. I'm not trying to upset you. But what I feel like the Lord is saying, like, this is how I made you. And I need these types of people in the body of Christ.

who are going to push into something else. Like this is, this is what pioneers do. Pioneers, they pioneer, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, even though they might want to live in comfort, they're not called to live in comfort. They're called to keep plowing and pushing through pioneering. When we look at all the stories of when they, they, they went out west, it was just complete insanity, the things that they were dealing with. but look what they accomplish and all the things that we would not have had they not done that. And the same thing within the church, within the body, without the people who want to question things, who want to talk about things, who want to push the buttons, who want to go, wait, wait, what about this?

Or the people who are just willing to say yes when it looks crazy, when everyone else is telling you, that's crazy. Why are you doing that? But there's something inside of you that says just to keep doing it to move. these are the pioneers and we need that because this is what helps push us into the next things like where we we need to be on a trajectory of growth with Jesus not stand still and even we look back at our church history at the the radical times of an outpouring of God's spirit a move where there was so many coming to Christ and the people who are leading those were not tame nice, sweet little people. They were pioneers. They were button pushers. They were people who were

willing to live in discomfort. They were people who were saying, at all costs, God, I'm just going to do what you're asking me to do. And they were people that couldn't always even be defined or they were people of controversy a lot of times. God used these people for his glory and to bring others to him. And I just think it just takes some radical people sometimes to just say yes. And I'm willing. When I was on staff at a church years and years ago, the pastor had us do all these like personality test things. And I hate those things. I hate those. Thank you. Like trying to tell me, don't tell me who I am. Yeah. Don't try to put me in a box and define me. I don't even know what that means. Yeah, I don't like it. But the pastor, when he called me in to go over the results,

with me. He starts laughing so hard and he's laughing and he falls out of his chair onto the floor laughing because he says, the results of the test literally said, you are rebellious and non-conforming. And he said, Kim, this is what we love about you. We need this. We need someone in the church who will not conform, who will not give in to how everyone says it needs to be done or how they think it should be done, that you are following Jesus, no matter what, you're going with what he says and how he says it should be done. There's a conviction that you live by. And to everyone else, it might look rebellious. To everyone else, it might look non-conforming, but it's what he's put us here to do. So anyways, I think that you should not be bummed out about being a button pusher,

and I think you should be okay with it. I just say, everybody like me. Well, that is the problem there. Not everyone's going to like you. You get over that real quick. Yeah. I don't know if I'm over it, but I'm understanding that that is the case. Like, I mean, more and more aware that there's just going to always be people that just do not like me and have me on their mind more than I have them on my mind. Okay. Okay.

Let's talk about that a second. Talk about warfare, okay? Here's a tool right here for this. When we are so filled up with what God speaks about us, anything that the people say, good or bad. it just doesn't hold any kind of weight with us. And it doesn't matter if they like you or not or what they say, whatever they might comment about you. And I learned a long time ago, especially like just,

I mean, I had someone one time write a 10-page letter handwritten with a pencil. That's commitment. Yeah. Mad about me. Of all, you know, the ways I lead worship, my hair was short. I mean, it just was a long list of all things they didn't like about me and how evil I was. But anyways, I started a long time ago, every time God speaks something to, me about who I am, about who he says I am, about what he thinks of me, how much he loves me,

any of those things. I write it down, I put a date. And whenever I'm struggling with someone's words or hurting me or the like not, I have felt that, like, I don't like to not be liked. I go back and I read that and I read it out loud. I'll even stand in front of a mirror. I'll look at myself and I'll speak it out on October 22nd, 2014, God said this about me. and I have a record. And when I start speaking that out loud, it suddenly drowns out all the other stuff. And someone told me a long time ago, and I've held onto this because it's been so important, if you allow, like, we're going to say the praise of people, like for me, it would look like,

I walk off stage and someone's like, oh my gosh, you're so anointed. That was so good. Worship was so good. Oh, my watch. I love it when you sing, you have such a good voice. And if I'm like, oh, and that's like, wow, that means something to me. Like, thank you. I'm holding that in.

I have now left a big old hole in my armor. It's like a place where now the enemy when he comes in with the cynicism, with the attack, with the, your hair's too short, you shouldn't sing in tongues. You're a woman. Women should be silent, you know, the millions of things I've heard. And that's when it hurts when it's painful. But if I, if I'm like, thank you, I'm gracious. but that comment, that compliment is in one year and out of the other year.

I'm not holding on to it. And there's no, there's no need in me at all, even for the affirmation. I'm not looking for the affirmation. God be the glory. Yes. And it's easier said than done. You know, we'd like to think. We'd like to think that we're like, I don't care what people think.

But deep down, we do, you know. And that's why I really try really hard to keep my mind full of, what he has said and what he has said about me, what he says to me. And when my mind is full of that, there just isn't even the space for that other stuff. So there'll, I mean, there are lots of people that don't like me. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. That's a good place to be.

It's a great place to be. It's great to this. I am approaching that line. I have better days than some other days. But I guess before we run out of here, you were in Nashville writing. music. Do you have another album coming soon or that you're working on it? Yeah, I want to record live in Montana up on our property. We have this, we bought this land. We have a ranch up there. And gosh, the whole process of moving, leaving California, leaving Jesus culture, going up there,

going on my own, all this stuff. We've been in like this wild journey of just sorting out what's next and what we're doing with the Lord. And something that the Lord's like really put on my heart is the mentorship and the people coming behind me. And I'm very concerned about the worship leaders coming behind me and what they're coming into. And I don't like where worship is at right now in the industry. I don't like what's happened. I don't like that the industry is trickled into the church. I want to shift some things. I want to see some things change. I'm I'm thinking about these people coming behind me and it matters to me what they're coming into. And so funny thing, this woman in Texas, who I didn't really know, but she was praying for me. And she's like,

I have this word for you. And she said, I see you bringing people to your property and you're teaching them how to dig a well because you know how to dig a well and you have dug these wells many times. And she's talking about, you know, mentorship. And it was just really incredible word. But the funny thing is this property has like seven wells on it. It's crazy. And all around us, there's like no water. We're up on a plateau. We're in eastern Montana.

It's a little bit drier. It's not the mountainous area. But it's like everyone else around us has cisterns and they have trucks come out and fill their cisterns with water. And we're on this property right there with like seven wells and an abundance of water. And I feel like it's significant. I feel like it's, I feel like it's a. it speaks significance to the spiritual of what God wants to do and with people there. So anyways, we're moving towards what we're building there, mentorship, raising up other worship

leaders, but I want to record specifically live there. And I feel like it's important and matters. So I've been writing in preparation for that. I don't know yet exactly when we're going to do it. It's still kind of working that out. And I don't, I'm not, I like to do things in God's time. I'm not in a hurry on any of those things. I wait for him to just bring it all together.

One of the songs we just wrote is called Last Days. And it's all based off of the verse I told you, Revelation 1211, which I was like, it's an intense song. I can't wait to hear it. It's going to be great. Yeah. It's going to be great. Yeah.

I mean, I'm not a musician. I can't play an instrument. I can't sing, none of that. But when I talk to people like yourself or even, like I was saying about my dad earlier, stuff, I'm always fascinated by the process of writing and how things come together. It is a journey.

Like, it's one thing, I kind of grew up into hip-hop culture and I've seen artists like write, like, they'll sit down and write a song in 15 minutes, you know? And that's very common with hip-hop, you know. But then there's the other side of it where, you know, artists will sit down and there's like a verse that the whole song comes from and sometimes that that's a process of how it comes out and then that's just one song of an entire album full of songs with stories like that which you all should do is find a way to document the stories behind the

songs because one I'm a guy that it's like the way my brain works these days is great content right but like there's also I feel like that would give that that punch behind the song is just like, here's how this song came to be. Because, like, I mean, there's been times over the years that I've sang worship songs in church, certainly songs that you've written. And it's like, we don't know the story behind it. Yeah. You know?

And it's just like, I think it would be kind of fun for people and also maybe even spiritually moving for people to be able to see the story of how the Holy Spirit wrote a song. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I appreciate you so much. I'm so glad you came out.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. It happened so fast, too, because I remember I invited you and then, you know, you said next time I'm around. And then all of a sudden, I think it was like two weeks ago, you said, hey, I'm going to be around. I was like, yeah. It's like, I probably should have warned him that would probably be that way because

I'm usually like, I'll kind of decide, okay, I'm going. And then I just go. When I come out to this area, it's not usually thought. way in advance. It's usually like there's a window. I'm going. Cool. So yeah. I'm glad I happened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. It's not just sing. It's not just sound. Every note I lift here, something down. They called in music, but I knew better. It was warfare wrapped in silk and feathers

My voice don't shake for demons these keys I raise my head Every note every when I sing I start tonight It's a roar against hell Not a show it's a spell Holy fire in the scale Worship in a war key Didn't know a voice could slice

Till I saw the demons flee They came for my silence Silence, split eyes with every lyric I'm calls of giants and boarded chain breaks It's a roar against head every swear against hell Every tear that fell Became a flame in the door