The Confessionals - 800: Doorways to Darkness in the Invisible War

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

What if the battle for your identity began before you could even understand what was happening? In this raw conversation, Tailah exposes how early rejection and seemingly harmless spiritual curiosity can open doors to something much darker. The story winds through second-heaven warfare, violent deliverance moments, and the slow, painful work of inner healing. When Tailah shares how witchcraft posed as self-discovery and how freedom came piece by piece, eerie coincidences begin to look more like a calculated plan. By the end, you’ll be asking what unseen forces might still be shaping your own life.Please pray for Tony's wife, Lindsay, as she battles breast cancer. Your prayers make a difference!If you’re able, consider helping the Merkel family with medical expenses by donating to Lindsay’s GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/b8f76890Become a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZTony's Recommended Reads: slingshotlibrary.comMy New YouTube ChannelMerkel IRL: @merkelIRLMy First Sermon: Unseen BattlesThe Meadow Project: Stream HereMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] ScrogginsBreaking Demonic Chains | InstagramMAILING ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelProduced by: @jack_theproducerOUTRO MUSICJoel Thomas - ImposterYouTube | Apple Music | Spotify

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All right, today we have Taylor coming on the show, and she is a former witch, and she comes to break down how she got into witchcraft and the depths of the reality of what people do when they get involved in witchcraft. And I'll tell you what, this was a fantastic conversation. And then after we were done talking, we were just standing around the studio, looking at pictures on the wall and she saw a dog man and she goes, oh, my sister saw one of those. She didn't even know what it was called. And I was like, wait, you buried the lead? And so what we did is we decided to go out to Nashville and sit down and record with Taylor, her sister Lexi, and her husband,

Jericho. And we did that at an Airbnb and that will be exclusively available to the members this coming Thursday for the member episode. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Taylor. And on Thursday, we're talking again with her and her husband Jericho and her sister Lexi all about strange things that they've experienced. Let's get to the show right now. Taylor, how are you? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing good. So you are a new face to the show. I've had a repeated guests on the show and I've had many times returning. You're a new face. I'd love to have you again. But because you're a new face, I think it's good to start off telling the audience who you are and your background so that you can understand the direction of this conversation where it's going to go. Actually, you know,

what we should do. We should actually start off with your book because I like promoting people's books when I can and stuff. So can you give me the book real quick so I can hold it from the camera. So breaking demonic chains is a book. Now, this has just come out recently? It's coming out in a few weeks. It's not even out yet. It's not out yet. Okay. So the-you got to read it before anyone else. Okay, perfect, perfect. So the book is coming out soon. And this is perfect and timely, actually. that's great. So obviously by the title, Breaking Demonic Chains, you have a background with dealing with the darker realities of our existence and in our world. And how your path through that, I find it unique, but also in a sense, ordinary is not the right word, but traditional in the

sense that like people go through life and they have ups and downs and things don't just happen instantaneously things happen in seasons i think that happens for a lot of people but unlike a lot of people you and a lot of people that are on the show are the type of person that recognizes the the waves of your life had demonic influences and there were things that were warring for your existence. And to me, that only means that God has some really big plans for your life. And I wonder sometimes how many people actually figured that out and how many people go to their grave, never truly blossoming into what God truly created them to be. You know, and I'm starting to really kind of with my wife, like, it's like, I told her, you know, you're going through something that

like not everybody goes through. You certainly don't expect to go through it at 39. And it's an opportunity to really tear down everything that life has made you and just lean into God and allow God to rebuild you into the image that he wants you to be. Yes. And I don't think people go through life sometimes, and I don't think everybody gets the opportunity to have moments of their life where they get a chance to do that, right? Yeah. Being stripped away of everything.

Yeah. Yeah. And in a sense, that's happened for you. through these waves of life where you've been able to be reflective and see the patterns. So if you could just introduce people to who you are and your background, and we can just kind of take the conversation from there. Yes. Okay. Well, yes, my name is Taylor Scroggins. Yeah, the title of the book is Breaking Demonic Chains. It's my story. I was raised in a Christian home. I fell into what the culture calls normal. The Bible calls witchcraft. I fell into a lot of demonic

practices while going to church and being a Christian. I had no idea, that does not mean that I wasn't oppressed. Just because I was going to church and a Christian doesn't mean that I couldn't have demons and I wasn't letting this darkness into my life. And so I went through seasons of hitting rock bottom, of being stripped away. And every time I hit one of those seasons, the Lord was there to pick me up and piece my heart together and build me back on a firm foundation of him, not, you know, the world or a relationship that I was in or or crystals or astrology or other things that I built my life on. He kind of stripped me of everything so I could see these things are not the truth that I'm

searching for. And so that's kind of what the book is even about my story of how I fell into witchcraft as a Christian during some seasons intentionally turning towards witchcraft and knowing that it was wrong, but I was mad at God, hitting rock bottom, getting picked up again and getting set free. I was going through so much oppression, like nightmares and certain mental illnesses that I had at the time. Just a lot of things were actually the result of demons being led into my life by the practices that I was doing. And so as God freed me and showed me how to break off these agreements, these attachments, these open doors,

I turned it into a freedom manual for other people because I see a lot of young people, millennials, Gen Z, especially, getting into astrology, tarot cards, messing with Ouija boards. They're searching for truth like I was. And so that's really the heart behind this and what I do, my ministry, and probably how you found me, you know, just sharing my testimony, sharing truth. I want other people to be free because if the Lord did it for me, I know he'll do it for whoever is watching. Yeah.

I'm not even sure exactly where I first came across you. It seems like the algorithm knows me better than I know me, you know? Yeah. And it's like, it's like, I don't know. understand it because I mean the algorithm feeds me people and like oh that person seems interesting right but you know your story uh with your childhood i remember you talking about um some of the trauma and just like maybe even like social rejection that you experienced uh which you know i really identified with and also i feel like uh i feel like people it's easy to chalk things up as oh well that's just life yeah

Like, that's just life. It's nothing spiritual. It's not, it's just the way life goes. And it's, but if you, if you wake up every day understanding that your life is spiritual warfare, then the circumstances of that everyday process that lay out is part of that. Yeah. And that starts at birth. So it's not something that, you know, oh, well, you know, I'm 18 now, so now is when it starts. You know, when I was a kid, I similarly, I was raised up north in the Philly area, but like, When I was a kid, I was outside of Philly, very rural Pennsylvania. I lived in a very large trailer park, and I was as dark as they came. And I know this was part of your testimony as well.

But I went through a lot of social rejection every day of my life for, I'd say, at least 10 years. And that messes your brain up. Right. And with your book and your story, it really got me thinking about the access points that demonic strongholds can gain through that trauma, even in children. Yes. It's like prime real estate, really. Yes.

Yeah. With a majority of like deliverance is like some people call it exorcisms. I call it deliverance. It's just casting out demons. Majority of the sessions that we do is like these spirits and these strongholds enter through trauma before the age of 10. That's like, I would say from personal experience, 90% of the inner healing and deliverance that we've seen.

That was very true for me. and for most people, you know, we're tender-hearted, we're young, we haven't experienced that, and the enemy just looks for any trauma, any open door, any access point, and those demonic assignments will come for you, even as a child. Yeah, I experienced social rejection. I didn't really grow up in a very diverse town, and a lot of the, I started being bullied in kindergarten, like four or five years old, just, and it was racial-based, you know, just, for being Latina and being darker skin. And even as a kid, yeah, I mean, that spirit of rejection will come for you. And so, you know, I experienced that growing up too. And it, as I got older,

it kind of morphed into like dating rejection and things like that. And so I would get into relationships, like hoping to find that love and acceptance that I really wanted. Part of that, you know, I would get crystals and try to fix it with that when I was in college. And it ended up imploding everything, obviously, and making it worse because that's not of the Lord. And so, yeah, I can kind of look back and see where like some strongholds of rejection and things like that really amplified. As I got older, they only grew and grew. And definitely was one of the reasons why I started messing with witchcraft. I wanted to feel understood and loved and seen.

And the enemy markets it as you can have power. You can get love. You can get acceptance. just do this ritual, go get your tarot cards read, go buy this crystal, it'll help you with love and all of that. And it just left me more empty. You know, it's interesting you said about the power because, you know, it's such an illusion. When you're pursuing Christ, you don't need power because all the power is in him. Yeah. And it's like way more than you could ever need. Yes. But when you are faced with this idea that you need to rein that in and hold power in your own hand,

it's not actually power in your own hand. It's being distributed to you by these beings. And it's being regulated so that you can always be dependent on them. It's kind of like drugs. It's like it's just, you know, you build up this thing where it's like, I need this to feel a certain way. Yes. And And they're like the dealer of the power. Yeah. You know what I mean? Wow. And so it's interesting when you bring that up.

When you were a kid growing up, you had, like you mentioned about being raised in a Christian home. But there was a shift in that Christian home. And that kind of seems to set you off on this witchcraft pathway. And I guess because I know you know where I'm going with this, but I want to, ask you this because I was curious. I had listened to several of your interviews. And I think maybe it was like two, three years ago, you made a video where it was just you speaking to a camera for like 30 minutes sharing your testimony. In that interview, you didn't say who the family member was. What was the shift between that and then now where you actually say who the family member is? It was just like getting permission.

Was there like a social thing that you were trying to refrain from dealing with or what? I think it was an internal thing of I didn't want to make my dad look bad because he was the one who brought home the astrology book. And I also want to be very clear because this is really important. I was primed from like preschool because all of the TV shows on Disney Channel Nickelodeon, psychics and fortune telling. And so I grew up as a kid thinking that stuff was really cool. And my mom would be like, no, don't touch it. That made me so. So I was already primed.

All he had to do is bring home the book. And it was like, for whatever reason, that's how the enemy hooked me into becoming a witch. And I didn't even know it. And so I was primed. I was ready. The enemy knows what he's doing. It's so important what we led into our homes, like even as when we have tiny kids. And so I was ready.

And yeah, I was afraid of him looking bad. You know, I just didn't want anyone to. But then I realized, you know what? No, because actually it was through my father. years and years later, who he actually just through doing research stumbled across Derek Prince, who has so many great teachings on witchcraft and deliverance. And so, yes, he brought an astrology book home, and that maybe set me down a wrong path, but he was the one who introduced me to deliverance and freedom and actually was how I got free. And so I saw the Lord's redemption,

even in that story. And I was like, this isn't something to be ashamed of because God used him as the priest of our home back then to fully get everyone set free. You know? And so I just thought that was a beautiful little redemptive story even in that. And I was like, I'll talk about it. Absolutely. And as like the leader of my household with my kids, my wife, I don't know if I've had an experience where I could say this, but I would welcome the opportunity to be able to put all the cards on the table and say, yes, I did do this. But here's where we're at now, you know? And actually, I guess.

I have that where, you know, before my kids, my wife and I were married for 10 years before we had kids. And in that 10 years, I went through some spiritual deserts. And I was, my marriage almost tanked. And, you know, I look at where I was and where I am today and the household I'm able to raise my kids in today because of that. There is a testimony there that I love sharing because it's the opportunity for me to show what God has done and where I've come from. Yes. And we all go through these ups and downs and life. I mean, it seems like your dad was a Christian then, got sidetracked, and now he's back on track.

Yeah, he was raised Muslim, got radically saved, encountered the Lord, met my mom. They were doing ministry and going to church together. We were raised in that. And I think, you know, because there was never full deliverance, I, I, I, I, I, you know, speculate. Maybe some of those open doors from being raised Muslim kind of lingered longer than they should have. And he got into a lot of universalism, Buddhism, astrology. He was kind of going through that phase. And that's when he started bringing those books into the home. I was around 15, 16 years old. And I started getting interested in that because those spirits were

being allowed into the home. I was, I believed everything that he said, because I looked up to my dad so much. He's so smart. And so I was just like a sponge soaking it all in. And I thought that I could be a Christian and believe in New Age and that there wasn't anything wrong with it. And I lived that way up until I radically laid everything down for the Lord. And through a lot of those Derek Prince teachings, I was like, oh my gosh, this is witchcraft. I need to get free. Like, this is why my life is in shambles right now. Yeah.

So your first touch of things was through astrology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So devil's advocate here. people, there's plenty of people I'm assuming that have no problem with astrology. And by saying that astrology is witchcraft, I think there are people who want to, you know, push back against that.

And they would say, well, what about the wise men who followed a star? You know, isn't that astrology, isn't that witchcraft? Like, how would you differentiate between what you were doing, what the wise men did to follow the stars? So there's astronomy. We know that God puts signs in the sky to tell us when things are happening, prophetic signs, the star in the sky when the Lord was born. Astrology is looking at the positions of the planets and the constellations and trying to get your identity from that and also trying to tell the future with that. So we know from the Word of God that fortune telling divination is demonic that the Lord says to, in the old,

Testament, those people that are practicing divination will not inherit the kingdom of God and stone them. Right. So we know God feels very strongly that fortune telling is witchcraft. It's not gaining insight from the Holy Spirit. It's gaining supernatural insight from another spirit. And so with those being the cornerstones of astrology, you know, it's an identity that the Lord did not give you. And there's a whole list of wonderful traits that it says you're bold, you're outgoing. But then you kind of go, That's the tip of the iceberg. Like everything the devil presents is so shiny and beautiful. And when I saw that, you're outgoing, you're spontaneous.

I felt so seen because I had wounds of being unseen and unloved and looked over and picked over and rejected. So when I saw all the wonderful things astrology said about me, I felt so seen. And I was like, wow, this makes so much sense. And I dug deeper into it and kind of got below the tip of the iceberg and the deeper I got. It was so dark. it had all of these negative, and I call them demonic traits that were assigned. Well, you have explosive anger, you have frustration, all of these negative attributes that it assigns to you. And like,

Jesus doesn't say that about me. That's not, I have the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, goodness. That's what God wants to give me. And I see frustration and anger and hatred and jealousy. And I'm like, hold on. I don't want to come into agreement with that and put that on as my identity. Then I dug deeper and I started analyzing something called a birth chart and it gets into all the planets, the constellations, every, every planet in our galaxy or whatever, the time you're born. And it says, this is your trait. This is your personality. This is how you handle stress. This is how you handle everything. Gets into your future, everything about your life in one little chart. And I started learning how to read this chart and it told me you're prone to head tumors and head trauma

and cancer and you're going to get a divorce. And it started saying all this horrible stuff. And when I started reading that, that was the moment it clicked for me. And I was like, this is demonic. I thought that God put astrology in the sky for us to understand ourselves. I thought it was a system he created. But he doesn't make me sick. He heals sick people. He doesn't have divorce plan for me. He wants to give me a hope in a future. And so that was the moment the scales fell off my eyes. And astrology is all about you. You're the same. center of the universe. So no, the wise men were not astrologers. The magi, I think they were prophetic astronomers. That's my opinion. I think they knew the scriptures enough to know those signs.

That's interesting. And they followed them. And because here's the thing, astrology will never lead you to Christ, ever. The wise men were being led to Jesus and they laid everything down at his feet. Like, that's a pure heart. There's no witchcraft involved in that. Where astrology is you, it's your own God. It leads you only to yourself. There's nothing. in astrology that says, turn to Jesus, look to God. And in the Bible in Isaiah, it says, where are your astrologers? Call in these diviners. But their counsel is like, it's like, what's the word it uses? Their hearth is no place to sit by for warmth. Basically, they can't offer you anything. Their insight and their wisdom is empty compared to the knowledge that God

gives us. Yeah. That's really interesting. And you said, you referred to them as prophetic astronomers. I'm going to have to put that in the back of my brain and remember that phrase. That's a great phrase. I like the ring of that. So you pursuing these things, I mean, you don't do it for as long as you did it without a feeling like there's something to it. And so like when you're looking into it and stuff, I mean, were there moments that you're like, oh, okay, that checked out. Like that was validated. And, like, like, that was validated. And, like, Like, I mean, it could be anything from, oh, yeah, that's describing me now to, it describes something that's to come in the future and then it comes.

And, like, I mean, what was some of those polls for you that, because, I mean, that probably, I imagine led you into other things. Like, I mean, like, once you open that door, the possibilities are endless. It's like, okay, well, if this is working, let me get a little bit of this over here and it becomes a potluck. That's what I did. Yeah, 100%. One story that the Lord brought to my mind, as you were saying, that was I went to go to a professional

interpreter, lady who interprets your charts, and I sat down at this booth with her. This was the one and only time I ever sat down and actually got some kind of fortune told, only time of my life. I kind of dabbled with it. I would call psychic hotlines and then I would hang up because I was raised in church and the fear of the Lord would come over for me. I'm like, I want to, but I can't. But I actually did. I sat down with this woman and she said, you know, what, what's your birthday?

She looked it up. She opened up all these like witchcraft books and had my birthday. And she said, oh, that's why you look this way. Oh, you're this, you're that. Oh, you're this star sign. That's why, you know, oh, your hair is so pretty. It's because you're like everything down to the physical appearance was, oh, yes, of course. So I sit down with her. And she tells me, oh, this is your season for love, for romance. you're dating someone, aren't you? And I said, yes, I just got into a new relationship. This was around May of 20, I want to say 2017. And she's like, yeah, so you're going to break up in September. And I was like, I mean, she was like, or, you know, some other stuff might happen. But yeah, I mean, this, you're probably going to break up with this guy in September. And I was like, okay. And then she kind of said some other things that I don't really remember, but that stuck out. to me for some reason. And that year in September, that was the, that was the year and the month that I hit rock bottom and I threw away all of the crystals that I had, all of the astrology stuff, the New Age, and the Holy Spirit said, break up with him. Like, break up with this man. He's not your husband. He's not of God. He was into New Age 2. And I did. And so I was like, well, that was weird. She actually said it and it happened. But I think to, number of one, you know, that the Lord told me to do it. So I don't, I don't credit her or anything. But I mean,

what she said happened. And I think, and I talk about this in the book, when we go to psychics and we go and get our fortunes told, I don't think that they can necessarily see the future. I think that they assign demonic assignments and demonic spirits. And the Bible, so the word for the spiritist, like a knower. And the Bible is called the word in Hebrew. And when it's translated into English, it means water skin, which is like a water bottle. So what do water bottles do? Like they hydrate you, like they pour into you. And so through that, it's like, I think that they pour into you those demonic assignments and those spirits. And when you come into agreement with that fortune, you give it permission to take root and play out in your life. And again, I know the Lord told me to to end that

relationship. So I'm not saying that's what happened there. But it's interesting because the way you share that experience, I mean, some people could say, one, they're like, well, how much of this can be self-fulfilling prophecy where you hear something? Sure. And you just believe it's so deeply that you kind of almost like

subconsciously work it into existence. But then you kind of throw a wrench into it and you're like, and God told me to do these things. And that presents a whole level of complexity, I suppose, when it comes to the traditional Western Christian understandings of the spiritual realm.

And it's like, so you're saying a psychic told you something that was going to happen and it did happen. But in that process, it happened because God told you to make it happen. It was when I got saved and I turned away from astrology. Yeah, it's so complex and it's so weird. But let me actually, I'll rebuttal this if anyone says. It's a self-filling prophecy. I didn't break up with the guy out of nowhere. That day, I found out he cheated on me.

So like how could I have known that? How could he texted me the wrong girl's name. You know? Oh, shoot. Yeah. So, you know, obviously I would have broken up with anyways, but the Lord was really making a point of like everything that had happened in your life. So for all the witchcraft, the relationships were cutting everything off and we're starting

over. And since that night, never looked back on any of the new age stuff. Wow. Yeah. So what do you think about that then? Like, let's talk about like maybe the possible like logistics of the. the spiritual realm. Yeah.

Because this woman, unless she's just completely making things up and she just hit a home run on it. Yeah. She had something feeding her information. Now, whatever's feeding that information to her, is it then getting that information from somewhere where it has the ability to see what's going to happen just like God does? Or was that entity, and this is a perspective and opinion, maybe, you know, But is it that entity was doing guesswork and hit a home run? It's like at some point, information was first given to you and you were receiving information from a source that was not deemed godly.

What it tells you happens only when God tells you it's going to happen. So like logistically behind the scenes behind the curtain, how do you even think about how that even works? Like do you have perspectives on that? Because it's It is complex. Well, I do not think that these entities, and I'll call them malevolent entities and demons, because I don't believe that the Holy Spirit, he doesn't move through these practices because in his word, he says don't do them. So how can he contradict himself? So it's my opinion from scripture, from personal experience, and dealing with this stuff that the demons that I had were talking to the demons that that woman had. And they were feeding her information, that familiar spirit, that spirit that that woman had, that spoke utterances and false prophetic words through her read my mail. Because the spirits that I had been messing with were just telling her everything, anything that she wanted to know. Yeah. And that makes total sense. Because if you just think about, what's that term, six degrees of separation. So it's like this idea that, you know, if you can live your life and understand as you

listen to this, that the spiritual realm is real, it's active, it's aware of you, it observes you. Yeah. Yes. Then if the demonic forces that you're carrying with you are observing you with you, interacting with you, it's not like they can't interact with others like them. And so if your new age boyfriend is cheating on you and they're sharing notes and then the notes are being shared from you to the psychic, like there's this real logistical way of community. that could be happening in the spiritual round that we aren't privy to seeing. Just like the Bible talking about

angelic beings. And I personally believe that we do have angelic beings that walk with us to protect us and assign to us. And it's like, I think my angel, I don't know how us to describe it, guardian angel or whatever, I'm here

working with Jack, my brother, every day. He has that too. And so, like, who knows what kind of conversation are happening there in the spiritual realm. Yeah, I've never thought about that. Maybe your angels are just, oh, maybe all over angels are just having a great conversation.

How was last night, you know? What'd Jack have for dinner, you know? But it's just like, I try to, with what I do, I really try to understand the logistics behind things. Yeah. Because I mean, I've been faced with so many things over the last eight years of doing the show

that made me scratch my head, made me not understand certain things, maybe reanalyzed things. And I've just really come to understand that I don't know the half of it. Yeah. Honestly. You know, like, are you familiar with Dr. Heiser? Yes.

Okay. So I was driving track to trailer, listening to him speak about the unseen realm. And I had to listen to so many of his teachings over and over again just to understand a little bit, you know? Yeah. But I did walk away from that thinking if what he was. he's saying is true. There is a whole hierarchy and operation operating around me that I don't even begin to understand. Yeah. And if I can understand that I understand that, it opens the door for a lot of opportunity for me to understand that there's logistical things that are happening that

lead to certain results that I may not understand how it got there, but it's because it's so complex on the back end. Yeah. That makes sense? Absolutely, yes. And I agree. I share a lot of that worldview that Dr. Michael Heitzer talks about, and especially like principalities and rulers when the Bible talks about that. There's different hierarchy in the demonic and in the angelic kingdom and the heavenly realms. And yeah, it's crazy. I mean, in the second heaven, there's so many things going on in the spiritual realm that we have no idea what's going on. And then sometimes things kind of peek through. And we experience like crazy, wild things. that science can't explain, culture can't explain. But like you were saying earlier, we're spiritual beings, you know, and sometimes we can see into those realms and have those wild encounters. And to me, it just proves the existence of God. Yeah, totally.

Totally. There's just a whole supernatural existence that we just, in our physical nature, can't see and comprehend. But it's there and it's operating. Yeah. And you brought up the second heaven and it's like, I didn't even have ways to define this at the time of this. And I talk about it a lot on the show because it's such an impactful thing for me in the last six months, I'd say. I came out with an episode, August, I think it was August 1st last year, I think it was.

And it was a story that I had for like three years. and I just held onto it because I was pulling at it and there were strings to pull. Very long story short. I was faced with a story that this guy had a friend who he personally saw do things that were not supposed to be possible. Like things that you only see in Marvel movies.

Like superhuman speed and physically growing in front of him. And the background story of it is when he was a kid, he was recruited to work for an entity. He accepted. And when he did that, it took him into this whole other life where he would access other realms through, at first it would be sleep, like sleep, dreaming and lucid dreaming. But then it got to the point where in this guy who I'm talking to told me that it happened right in front of him. Like he's, he called his friend because his brother was going through something. He's like, I don't know who to call.

I want to call my friend who does this weird stuff. And he shows up and he just says to him, his friend says to him, he says, it's going to get weird right now. I need you to stay calm. And he said then his friend grew like seven inches in front of him. And when he was done growing, he looked at him and said his friend's name and said he's not here right now, but he'll be back soon. And he invites this thing into his house.

He's like, it looked like him, but it didn't. look like in him. And then when his friend came back, he shrunk back down. He was exhausted and he walked away and he said, I got to go home and rest. But I say this because, I know it sounds like a movie. But I was able to track down people connected to this story who verified this. And nobody seems to want to actually come out and talk about it except for this one guy who wasn't directly involved in this big story. And so it's an ongoing thing, I suppose. But I say this because one of the things that I was faced with was like, if this is true, like, we're talking about something recruiting people to work for it.

And then in the time that I first heard that story, other people were coming to me saying the same thing that I hadn't aired it yet. Like nobody knew that I had this story. Wow. And I was like, what is going on? And I've uncovered, it has to be like, at least a dozen of people's stories that I haven't all been on the show because they don't want to talk. The one guy, I called him, and he walked off the factory floor that he was working at at night. Within three minutes, he's sobbing, maybe 30 seconds,

crying his eyes out, scared to tell his wife what he's been through. And he cuts it off. And we were supposed to record. And he just, he told me he's like, listen, since I talk to you, things have been getting really bad and weird. I'm scared. Lose my number. Don't ever talk to me again. And so we never talked again. But it's a wild thing. And then one of the details he shared was, and this is where I'm trying to get to, it's a long process, but he said he saw his friend run. It was like superhuman speed. It was like there's no way he physically should have been able to do that. And I had no framework as far as like proof of that happening before until I was reading, I can never remember. I think it was first kings or second kings. Elijah, I think it was 18. But it says that he

tucks his robe into his sash and he runs ahead of the chariot all the way to Jesreal. And so I'm thinking of myself, even if it's one horse, it's like one verse that you kind of gloss over. Yeah. But literally it's painting this picture that he was, because it said that the power of God came on him and God gave him superhuman speed to run faster than a chariot for at least 15 to 16 miles. And so it kind of put this whole thing into my, I'm like, okay, I have this story of modern times. And this is something that somebody has been given the ability to do through demonic means, demonic forces. But there's, there's evidence of God doing the same thing. It just takes you right back to the counterfeits. Samson is like Superman.

Exactly. And I think of the demoniac in Mark chapter five where he, would rip out the iron chains and nobody could bind him because he had superhuman strength. Yeah. I've been in deliverance sessions where people have to be held down because those beings just come over them and they want to fight you and attack you and all of that stuff. I mean, they're, yeah, they're violent creatures and also, you know, the Lord can give us strength, too. Yeah, it's fascinating to think about. I've seen some pretty wild things.

I haven't seen like superhuman strength or anything like that. Most people haven't. Yeah. But, I mean, I've definitely seen a lot of weird things. Like what? Casting out demons. Gosh, let me try to think. Is there anything in particular?

Anything comes to mind. Doesn't matter to me. Because I know, so I'll give you an example. My friend, I think it was pastor. Maybe it's not Pastor Larry Raglan. If it's not, I apologize. But I believe it's him who told me that he was in one of his church services praying over somebody.

And there was something. demonically possessed that threw him against the wall. Yeah. And I think it was that person was pushing up on him or something, and he didn't know it, but everybody else around him saw it, that his feet were elevated out the ground for like, by like a foot. And it was just like there was this physical confrontation. Yeah.

Of exercising a demon out of somebody. And you talked about, I think you mentioned about seeing it. even like deliverance in kids. And there's a social aspect of that that I wouldn't mind picking at too. So, I mean, you can share anything that you've experienced personally, but there's also the side that I think about this too. Like when you see people at like they're doing kids camps and, you know, there's deliverance happening at kids camps.

I wonder, does anybody ever wonder what the parents, how the parents feel about it? You know, like especially parents aren't believers. Like, how did they perceive you praying over their kid and that coming out of them? Like, do they believe? Do they say, what did you do to my kid? You know what I mean? So, I mean, you're in deliverance ministry now. So, I mean, like, what are some of the things that you've been seeing, though?

I've seen a lot. I've seen people writhing on the ground like snakes. I've seen different voices coming out of people's mouths when the spirit talks through them. I've seen eye colors change, like instantly. That was pretty weird. My first time ever casting out a demon and I was, I think I was 17. Really? And there were no adults around there.

I had to call my youth pastor on the phone because the girl I was with, she started manifesting really bad. And I was, I was alone with a friend and he was having to hold her down. and every time the spirit would speak through her eyes were bloodshot. And when it was her, the eyes instantly were not bloodshot anymore. I mean, how do you explain that? That was the very first time I felt like the Lord threw me in, like those videos, and you see babies being thrown into the pool and they're learning how to swim. It felt like I had no idea what I was doing.

I didn't even know what was happening. But I just knew I had to tell it to leave in the name of Jesus and that it was a demon. But yeah, and kids too. Like I've had to pray over kids. There was someone that I knew. that it was a teenager and they had found TikTok videos about just teaching kids paganism. Like if you invoke this deity and you leave it out of food offering and you pray to it, then XYZ blessings.

Your life will, you know, turn around and breakthrough and all this stuff. And so this kid starts doing that, practicing paganism. And he became, I don't really use the word possessed a lot. I use demonize, you know, to be under the influence. but, I mean, I don't have another word for it. The kid wasn't functioning. It was like a normal child talking, living life. And then after they started doing these pagan rituals, they were not coherent anymore.

They weren't there anymore. We had tried to do deliverance sessions and they didn't want freedom. There were a lot of things that were, this was really the only time I've ever had someone come to me that like nothing worked. Nothing happened. How old was the kid? 14. Wow, okay. And so I hope, I don't know if they had to go somewhere else.

If the kid is free still today or not, I have no idea. But, I mean, that really opened my eyes to how bad this is getting on social media and they're targeting kids. And it's, yeah, I mean, I've seen a lot, a lot of wild things. So the, I want to get your perspective on the TikTok stuff because I know it's really rampant there. But what you just shared, it really kind of points to the least. legal aspect to this, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, the idea that it didn't work, but when I understand, you're saying the child themselves didn't want it to work. It was a really strange case because we couldn't seem to break, get through to the child at all. The amount of control that the

spirits had over him, it was like nothing I'd ever seen before. And I've seen hundreds and hundreds of deliverance sessions. And I still, to this day, haven't seen. I think the only thing that kind of makes sense is that there were so much given over that the amount of control that they had, like, it was, it was like hitting a brick wall. And there's, I mean, I'm not scared to say, like, there's some cases that, like, I don't know how to help. I mean, I help a lot of people get free and cast stuff out. But, you know, to this day, I'd never seen a lot like it. And he did a lot of rituals and binding things to himself and couldn't even tell us the extent to which he did it because they wouldn't even let him speak. Wow. Yeah. It was very, very,

heartbreaking. Wow. So something that's that deep, you feel like there's, is delivering sometimes do you feel more of like pulling back layers of an onion than it is just in the name of Jesus, boom, done. Here's your one pill to take, take this, you'll be fine. I would say it's never like that, ever. I mean, maybe some people would. It's in layers because there's so much healing that needs to happen to. Like for most people, it's not like, oh, you have a demon. Tell it to leave. and everything is fine. Like, usually, like we talked about earlier, those things come in through pain

and through trauma and through wounds. And so there's layers of healing that have to happen too, so you can get totally free. And then for a lot of us, we have more than one, you know, painful memory or trauma. And so it is like peeling back a lot of layers.

And some people have more layers back to peel than others do. But I found that deliverance with inner healing leads to truly, truly transformed lives. And God usually doesn't just zap us because if you've seen deliverances, kind of like we talked about, sometimes people are throwing up. Sometimes they're writhing on the ground. It's very, or contorting their bodies. It's taxing on the human body.

We can only take so much. And so I think it's God's mercy and his kindness that he takes us through that in layers because I think if he tried to zap it all out of us at once, we would die. I mean, it's just too much, I think, on our physical bodies. What do you think about, or actually, let me rephrase that. I'm trying to understand with what you just said, deliverance plus inner healing, I would assume that deliverance equals inner healing. So you're saying that there's a whole equation of inner healing

that is separate from deliverance. Is that how it is? I think they can definitely be done together, but I'm just basically what I'm saying with that is cast out the demon, yes, but heal the wound that was there that the demon came in through in the first place. So, you know, sometimes the deliverance can take, two hours. It can take a long time. Maybe you don't have five hours to sit with somebody and go through

all those wounds. So maybe you have to meet up, okay, let's do inner healing. And that's just inviting Jesus into the pain, into the trauma, and letting the Lord minister to you there and speak to that wound, speak life over you, asking the Holy Spirit to heal it. Because what I always love this illustration, and I teach on it, and it's like, it's like a gunshot wound. Like you get shot in the arm. Deliverance is like the doctor taking the bullet hole out. But you can't just, leave the wound open and expose or it can get infected or something else can come in there. And so inner healing is like stitching you back up, putting the healing on it. So then you're fully healed and you can go back on about your life and be healthy. Yeah, I feel like maybe it's shifting now,

but I mean, I've been around long enough to hear the word deliverance and it almost has like a stigma to it, you know, and people like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to touch that. Like, because that would be me saying that I have a demon or something. Like, what do you say? But the The more I've learned, because I mean, I grew up in the church and I think maybe Jack has a different perspective because we grew up in the same house. But like, I feel like the idea of demonic attachments on a Christian was almost like thought of as like, that's not possible. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, no, that's called warfare. You know, like there can be literal demonic forces that are assigned to you and their job is to make your life miserable. Yes.

and to sway you away from things. And that's where that Daniel 10 image always comes in my head where it's like Daniel's praying, but he doesn't get an answer to his prayer for three weeks because literally there was a war happening in the second heaven to prevent that message to get to Daniel. There was an angel that had a message to go to Daniel and he couldn't get it to him for three weeks.

And it's because there's literal principalities that are warring for you. And so, like, when you start understanding, that, it's like, okay, so you're not saying deliverance is bad, no. But I also feel like there's people that feel like if they admit they need deliverance is because it's in their mind, they're like, did I do this to me? Did I bring this on myself? So on that note, do you feel like there are people who maybe need deliverance not because of something necessarily they did, but something that they were born into, their family line, like a great-grandfather being a warlock

or something. Oh, yeah. My, I don't know how many greats back, but one of my ancestors was, uh, they call it a curandera in Mexico, but it's like, it's like the town witch doctor. She was a witch. Um, and she got saved. But there wasn't to our

knowledge, deliverance and breaking of generational curses that happened. And as a child, I was fascinated with witchcraft. My sister was fascinated with witchcraft. We both were and we, I didn't try to influence her that way. She was actually more into it than I was. And so I, in my spirit, I believe that that was kind of some lingering effects of some of that generational.

And then my paternal grandmother, she had messed with some divination and things like that. So I do think that things come through the bloodline. We know the Bible says that. But yeah, there is a literal war happening. And I can say this with my full chest as I was a Christian and I had demons and I had to get deliverance. And I believed in Jesus. And I know the Bible says deliverance is the children's bread. And we also kind of see in that parable, that story that Jesus tells when you bind the strongman and you kick everything out of the house, the house being us, he's like, unless the house is occupied, like those things are going to try to come back.

And so if Jesus isn't filling your heart, if the Holy Spirit's not dwelling within you, those things will go and find seven more spirits more wicked than them and they'll try to come back and take over because their entities, their person, spirit persons without bodies. want a body to inhabit so they can carry out their evil function. There's so much more, they can do what they want to do so much more with a body. Like, how can a spirit of lust, I mean, I'm sure it can influence and oppress, but if it has a body that it's dwelling in, it can do all sorts of things to defile that body and defile another person's body. And I really want to share this story. When I was in college, I just felt a lot of peer pressure to like smoke weed. My best friend was doing it, the ex-boyfriend that I had mentioned at the time, He was doing a lot of drugs and stuff like that.

And so I just, I had never done drugs in my life. But being around those people really made me curious and I wanted to try it. So I started smoking weed. And it was fine for a few months. And then I started getting really bad panic attacks every day. I had never struggled with anxiety or had a panic attack ever in my life. I'm a very easygoing person. And right when I started smoking, because it's like you open yourself up to the spiritual,

when people do drugs, like they hallucinate, they see spiritual beings, like people take drugs to gain access into the spiritual realm to get clarity or revelations and things like that. And so I wasn't doing it for that purposes, but I opened myself up to the spiritual realm, was where I'm getting at. And a spirit of anxiety entered me through smoking. And I believed in Jesus. I wasn't following him like I should have, but I believed in God and I was smoking. And I stopped smoking. I told you like around the time I gave my life back to Christ. I stopped. doing drugs. I stopped doing new age. But I was still having panic attacks every day. After I surrendered everything to the Lord. So that's in September, around December. I'm so sick of having panic attacks

every day. I'm going to church and I'm reading my Bible. And I just, I couldn't take it anymore. I go to my mom. I was like, I think I have a demon. I'm having panic attacks every day. Because she does this ministry too. So she knows what she's doing. And I was like, I think there's a spirit involved here. And I need you to cast it out of me. And she was like, okay, well, start declaring the word of God over that God hasn't given you a spirit of fear, but of power of love and a sound mind. And right when she says that, my mind goes blank. I cannot think of one Bible verse. I can't think of one book of like my mind. I cannot even think. And I started manifesting. And I wasn't screaming or writhing. It wasn't, I just started having a panic attack. That's how that spirit was manifesting. So I

start having a panic attack. My mind is empty. And she realized what's going on and was like, wow, this is deeper lodged in you than I thought. She's thinking, oh, we'll just, we'll just rebuke it in Jesus' name. We'll be fine. I'm manifesting now. And so she's just worrying in the spirit over me. And it was inside my body. I don't know how else to explain it. There's a reason why it says cast out demons, not cast off demons. Like they're on us and just shake it off. Like, it was in my heart. I could feel it in my body. And I don't know how long she was praying for maybe 10 minutes and commanding this thing to leave in Jesus' name. And I felt I could see it in the spiritual realm, and I felt it.

It was like a witch hand with really sharp claws is kind of how I saw it. And it was like squeezing my heart so tight. And I felt this tightness in my chest. And she was like, leave now in Jesus' name. And it went and just lifted out of me. And I have never had a panic attack ever again in my life since then. I don't struggle with anxiety. And this was about, well, it was 2017.

And so all those years ago, now it's 2025. It's funny how 2017 you're like, oh, it's like two years ago, right? That's what it feels to me. I'm old. How is that? It's so long. You got seven and eight years ago. That's an interesting story.

So it's interesting because there are a lot of people. What you just shared is a contentious topic in the Christian world. It is. The idea of can a Christian be demonically possessing? vest. And I think I was raised, at least with the idea, I don't know if we ever even really talked about this stuff growing up, but like the idea was like, no, of course not. Like, you know, you can't have a demon in you. You don't want to think that you can. Right. But what you said, because when you said it was in my body, it just, and I don't totally understand totally how this

works and stuff, the whole idea that you have the body, spirit, soul, especially the spirit's soul, it's something like, I have a hard time to finding the two as separate. But obviously they are. But in that context of the three, you probably could. And I say probably because, you know, leaving it loose because I don't want to speak authoritatively and something I don't know what I'm talking about on. But like, it makes sense to me that you could have a demonic entity in your body, sharing space with your soul and spirit. Yeah.

And holding on to things and manipulating things. To me, it makes sense. Well, our flesh, you know what I mean? Like even in our, we can have it in our physical, like physical, physical, body where, yeah, I mean, like, I've prayed for healing for someone with, let's say, they've, I don't know, some health problem. Oh, here's another story. To illustrate the point.

So people, I've noticed a symptom in doing deliverance and where women or people have reproductive issues. I'm not saying all of it, but I've seen it. Reproductive issues or cis or, like, extreme bloating. And there's a correlation to, like, demonic, lustful dreams that they're having. at night. Like for some reason, those spirit, well, I know why, but I don't want to get into the graphic details, but those spirits that defile people in the night, they typically lodge in the reproductive organs. And so when we're doing deliverance, a lot of, if someone is having those issues there and

needs healing in their body, I'll ask them, you know, do you have dreams like that at night? Nine out to ten times they say yes. And we cast out that incubus, succubis, spiritual spouse, whatever you want to call it. And I've seen it in real time, the bloating goes down or they go and they get scans and there's no more cysts and their reproductive organs are healed. And so demons can sometimes take root and lodge in the physical body like that. And we can pray for healing. But actually, what you need is to cast the spirit out because the spirit is wreaking havoc in the body. Sometimes it is just physical healing and we pray. And so, yeah, it's like if demons can dwell in the soul and in the flesh, like, of course they can afflict us. Our soul is our own.

emotions, we know people can have a spirit of rage or a spirit of lust or, you know, and those, that's your soul, right? That's your mind, your will, your emotions. That's not your spirit. And so I, I, 100 percent, I've seen it hundreds and hundreds of times. I mean, I can't deny it. But I understand if people wrestle with that, it's, for me, it's like when you experience it and when you see it and then you read the scripture and it's backing it up. Yeah. I mean, for me, it's like, I wholeheartedly believe that. Yeah. So I had an experience, Are you familiar with Alan De Deio? Not.

Okay, so he runs a, he's a pastor in Charlotte, and he runs a Christian media conference every year called Armed Media. And I was out there last year speaking, and deliverance minister came up to me after day one. And he just simply asked me, do you ever have any issues with what you do for a living with, you know, attacks? And I told him yes, and he wanted to pray for me. And he just, he said, I want to pray for you to have eyes to see and ears to hear the attack before it comes. And even though I was raised Pentecostal, I'm just very not charismatic. Like, I just, I'm the kind of guy, I pray with my hands in my pocket, you know? And it's just like, I get timid when I'm around people, believe it or not, anybody listening.

But I have my hands in my pockets and he starts praying for me. He's like, you have to pull your hands out and hold them out. and receive this. And I'm like, okay, this is very not me. And as he was praying, I was standing there, and I had my hands out, and I can feel the palms of my hands become warm. And I was like, well, that's new. Like, that's new, but I'm probably imagining this.

As he's praying, I feel, I don't know how to describe it. It's like a physical but spiritual weight that was living. lifted off me, right? And it was like off my shoulders and I felt great. And I was like, this is different. Yeah. And, you know, I started connecting dots over the next 24 hours of how I had been carrying something with me for the better part of nine, ten years at that point. Wow. That's another show. The audience knows it. I spent like three hours in a state in his house once and there's a lot of crap that happened that I... I need to go watch that episode. I don't even know what episode it was. I just talk about at times, but like...

It'll be my book. There you go. Get the book. Yeah. But things happened that day that I didn't realize I was carrying all that time. Yeah. And maybe you can, maybe you've experienced this or you've seen other people experience it. But like you get to a point where you have an attachment.

Let's just call it an attachment for my comfortability with talking and conveying the story. I can safely say something was attached to me. And Well, it's not one or the other. It could be either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, there's oppression and heaviness, but yeah, I mean, Christians can have demons for sure. And I've learned that. And it's like you get comfortable with, not comfortable. That's the wrong word. Like, numb to it. Yeah, you get used to it. You're like, it's normal.

I'm just a sad person. You don't even understand that you're carrying a weight that's not meant to be carried. Yeah. And I just, and going back to something we said earlier, I wonder how many people carry these kind of things. And they don't even, they don't even know it. They don't know why they don't know why, you know,

when somebody starts talking about God, they get triggered. You're like, oh, I can't stand that crap. It's like, hey, man. You know, like, you know, like, you're manifesting a little bit here. Yeah, absolutely. But it's just like, you know, or, you know, and this is where the demonic forces will grab you. It's like, you have church.

You were scarred by somebody at the church, and now that's all churches. That's God. That's the very nature of God is that because that one person who's a flawed human being did this to me. And I can't, I can't. I can't. Like, it's just, and then all of a sudden they start getting used to the feeling and all of a sudden you start saying something like, hey man, why don't you come to church? Oh, I can't go to church because I'll burn in flames if I walk into the doors of a church. Like, I can't tell you many times I heard people say that. And it's like, it's like these superstitions that they believe. Yeah.

Like, it's like literally, they probably don't believe it, but they feel like, oh, everybody will know that I'm Satan reincarnated if I walk into it into the church. You know, it's just like this idea that you're allowing these principalities to have such control over your mind. Yes. That you live your life from beginning to end. Most times you're going into the grave, believing these lies, and you never experience a deliverance.

Let's scrap the action. of deliverance, but literally a deliverance from these things in your life. And I'm just at a point where I'm just like, how many people out there right now listening, watching this, are not operating in full capacity because they're being pulled down by these forces that are in their life. I'm telling you, it's most people. And I had depression. I had anxiety. I had anorexia trying to think of what else. I mean, I had a other lot. But those were three. huge things that they would say get on a pill. I'm not, and I'm not saying mental illness doesn't exist, but I am saying sometimes there's a spiritual cause for mental illness and you can't be free

in Jesus' name. And so I was walking around and most people would have just given me a pill. I had a demon of depression and death and I didn't want to live anymore. And I had someone pray deliverance over me and cast it out and it never came back or all around the same time of 2017, 20, yeah, 16 and 17, all around that time. That's when I was really going through a lot of deliverance and getting free. And I felt so much joy, peace, freedom, clarity. I was like, this is the abundant life that Jesus is talking about. Not that my life is perfect or I'm super rich or like just what the world calls abundance, but true abundance and freedom and healing and wholeness and none of that just junk, like cluttering up my life, dwelling in my spirit, ruining everything for

me. And triggers are such a good place to start. And not every trigger is a demon, but every trigger is pointing to a wound. And so it's like, that's a great place to start. If you're scared of deliverance or you're unsure, okay, well, I know I'm wounded. Holy Spirit, I invite you into this wound, that one, when this happened to me when I was five, when this happened to me when I was 12. And all of these triggers can point us into areas where we can get healing from the Lord. Because that's his desire. That word save, sozo. In the Greek, it means saved, like salvation. It means delivered and it means healed.

So, like, God is interested. Jesus died on the cross to save us, not just so we can get a ticket into heaven, but to heal, deliver, redeem, restore us, and now we have a promised eternity with him saved from the darkness. So you, you're, we're going a million miles an hour right now on deliverance, which I think is good because, um, I don't always get a chance to have somebody across the table that is actively pursuing, you know, deliverance ministries and praying for people and seeing it work and the work in people.

Yes. You don't get to where you're at without the transformation in your life and seeing it personally, right? You had a radical transformation where, like we talked about waves earlier in life and how, you know, we go through waves and you went through waves. and you went through waves and, you know, seasons of life. Tell me about that moment where there was that switch that turned for you. And it's like all of a sudden, you are a new person. You're putting away the crystals because you talked about the crystals. And there's this whole migration that you went through it throughout your life where you're doing astrology.

That led to the other thing. Yoga, third eye, meditation. I mean, I was into a lot of stuff. Yeah. And so, like, you have a radical encounter with Christ, with Jesus, that changes your life and gets you from there to where you're at now where he's using you as a tool to change other people's lives. What was that transformation for you? For me, it was the churches that I were raised and were very biblically sound.

They were spirit-filled. And that's, I think, why my story is a little bit strange or unique is because, I knew Jesus, I had sound and good teaching. And I just got, I started mixing. And then I intentionally turned away from God. I, when I had graduated high school, all these music deals started coming together because I'd write songs and worship music and all that. And then everything fell through. And I thought that God was dangling my dreams in front of my face. And just the enemy really lied to me about the character of God. So I had seen healings. I'd seen miracles. I had told, I had casted demons out of someone before. So I always knew that God was real. I was very upset at him.

And so I turned away from him. That's when I really got depressed and anxious and sort of really opening all those doors to the demonic. But I was mixing before that. I was doing yoga and I was an astrologer and I was serving on the worship team and I was leading classmates to the Lord. Like we said it earlier, like it's a complex thing. It's not always like so black and white. Like I was seeing God in my life. But it wasn't like open heaven. Like I feel like, you know, sometimes I see things happen now. And so the journey back to him, I don't know other than like layers. It was just like peeling back a layer, peeling back a layer.

And after so many deliverances and healing and like not chasing that, but he was showing me through all of the healing and the freedom that he really loves me. And that wasn't his character. And he's never stopped loving me and never stopped pursuing me. and he's always been there. And so just seeing him show up for me every time when I was being rebellious, when I was being stupid, when I was being stubborn, when I was an idolatyr, when I was living in sexual sin, when I was a witch and I didn't even know it, he'd never stopped pursuing me.

And after all those years of going through all those ups and downs and ups and downs, when I finally had that moment of laying everything down, it was just kind of like, how long am I can't keep playing with God. I know he loves me. I know he's good at this point. And there were many things that happened after that that tested my faith. But I would always remember all the things he brought me through. And I was like, it's tempting to go and get drunk or go and get high. Like, things would happen later, you know, that year that I was really like my first year out. There were things that would have happened, breakups, family pain, different things that would have sent me normally running back to the weed or the alcohol or a toxic relationship.

And I would just stop and be like, no, like, God has healed me from so much. I can't go back to that vomit just because it felt good. And he's brought, he's just, he's rescued me. How can I go back to the pit that he pulled me out of? And so seeing him and knowing him over, over those years builds history and love. And from that kind of like built a really strong and secure relationship. with the Lord, a strong attachment to him. And ministry kind of just overflowed from that. I never wanted to do ministry. It wasn't, I liked doing ministry. I like street ministry and doing life

groups on campus. And I would go to girls' dorms and cast demons out of them. Like, I didn't, I was all new to me. What are you doing this Saturday? It was so fun. Yeah. And then from there, like, I just, the Lord was like, share your story, share your story, share your story. And then ministry. That's wow. seems like, so with the deliverance, I wanted to hit on this, and I forgot about two minutes ago, there's a guide named Jerry Marsinski, and he is a doctor. I think he's a doctor. I'm pretty sure he is his doctor degree. But he, a clinical psychologist, I'd say, and he spent time with a lot of people who, multiple personality, and he started noticing, and this is somebody who's not a Christian,

Starts noticing trends. And it wasn't until he was sitting in, he was sitting in his office with a client, and they started manifesting right in front of him. And while the person's in front of him, and he theoretically should be speaking to the altar, ego, the split personality, there's actually in the room something going up the wall.

And he's like, well, if you're here, what is this over here? It was something like that. I talked to him a long time ago. And I feel like that kind of conclusion, because he comes to a conclusion, I don't think he wants to come out and say, but he's like, there's something going on here. I think he will say that he doesn't believe every person who has multiple personality is that. There's something on a spiritual level there. Absolutely.

But I think we might start seeing more of that. I really believe that we're entering a new era of humanity where it's like there's this starvation of a spiritual existence that for generations we've been lacking. And these new generations are coming up and they're like, we need something. Our inner man is starving and we need to feed it. That's why they're falling into new age. They don't know how it's like, I remember growing up It was like, you're either an atheist or a Christian. That's how it was like a lot of God's not dead, saw that movie. But then now, like, there's a shift.

There's a shift in the atmosphere. The younger generation. Yeah, or it's like, no, there's something spiritual here. Now they're all getting into divination, witchcraft, and connecting to the ancestral stuff. And that's why I felt like it was such a timely assignment to write the book, to do the videos for you to do podcasts and talk about it because people are hungry. They know the spiritual. real, are they going to be deceived or are they going to find truth about it? Right. Exactly. And you said that you got your start. I don't want to say your start,

but you had viral things happening on TikTok. And it's been at least two years that I've been aware of the idea of witch talk. Yeah. It's been around. Is it still going rampant? I mean, I think it's like actually kind of declining. I think more people are getting saved. So it was really rampant during COVID, like 2020, 2020, 2021. That's, That's why I started doing TikTok. I was like, because of witch talk. I was like, I was saved out of this. Don't open these doors. So I started sharing my stories like we're talking about today. And that's what started going viral. And I had thousands and thousands of people every week messaging me. I threw away my tarot cards and I bought a Bible. Oh, I'm done doing that. I need to get to like there was a massive. And it still is happening. Exodus out of this because people are sharing their stories and they're saying this left me demon. it left me empty. I wanted to off myself, like, really coming out and saying, this is what happened to me when I started messing with new age. And so the fruit of that, like, yeah, it's, it's amazing. People are really waking up. You know, it's funny because, um, I sure, I sure with you,

like, how the show started for me before we started recording. And I came into this not knowing anything about anything. Like, I was just like, we're just going to talk to people and see where it goes. And I started having people talk to me that were part of New Age that they're like, oh, yeah, I love Jesus. And they would say things not knowing what I'm dealing with. I was like, oh, that's an interesting way to put it. I guess, yeah, okay. You know, because they'd be like, you know, say something about like Christ's consciousness.

And I'm like, I'm like, yes, we should all be conscious of Christ. I agree with that. And people would be like, this person's new age. I'm like, okay, but I don't think Dewey seems to be that bad because, like, I'm conscious of Christ, you know? That's funny. I had no idea.

I had no idea. It sounds good. It's the flattering and the pretty speech. They don't deny that Christ is real and exist. That's what's tricky about it. Like, that's how Satan deceived Eve in the garden. He just twisted it and perverted it. He didn't say God.

Never, like, it's just that perversion. And it's not like when I asked my dad when he brought home that astrology, book, I said, isn't this not of God? And he goes, no, God created astrology. And I'm like, oh, that makes sense. And God created everything. Right. And then I became an astrologer. In that context, though, like, if somebody were to say, well, God creates everything. So whatever, it's like, okay, God also warns against necromancy. And it's not because it doesn't exist. It's because we are not meant to do that. Yes. And so there's something that puts a wall between us and God when we do such things. And it's like, it's not because it doesn't exist. It's because we're not to be doing

those kind of things. And that takes you all the way back to these, like, and I don't know how much you've ever looked into it, but like the idea that when the angels rebelled and they, they interacted with man, they taught us how to do things. We were not meant to know how to do. Yeah. And so it's like, these things are real, but God put guardrails up for us as his children for a reason. Absolutely. And if you want to have a joyful life, you want to have a life of peace, stay within the guardrails and keep going down the road that leads to him. And when you're pursuing God, it's like I can't describe it in words.

The best I've ever really kind of come close to is with, who's a couple of. Calvinist, but John Piper. And he talks about the nature of when you pursue God and you pursue your joy in him, it unlocks something where he then can then distribute more of his glory to you. And when you receive more of his glory, you get overwhelmed, filled up, and you want to pursue more of him. And it's a cycle that happens. And that doesn't happen when you go outside the guardrails.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I just, I know we were operating on timeless and stuff, but I really wanted to hit on the culture of today and the pursuit of spiritual existences. And I really believe that we're living in a time and it's a gold mine in a sense that it's like there are so many people looking for spiritual answers. Yeah. Young people. I heard a story. I think it might have been wet. Huff that told this story. There's a bookstore in Canada that he's connected with. It's a Christian bookstore. And one of these kids came in and he's like, hey, do you have one of those Bible things? And the guy's like, yeah, I have a Bible. Yeah. And he's like, cool, all my friends are reading this

thing. And it's like, I feel like this younger generation is almost reading the word of God with a fascination as a child would of 20, 25 years ago reading Harry Potter. And I don't think it's a bad thing. No. They're like, this is a magical book. Yeah. And, and, And they're pursuing it. And you've got to trust that if John 1 is right and the word became flesh, the word is God, then you got to trust that the word is going to speak to these people. Yeah. You know?

Yes. I just feel like the TikTok witch talk stuff has on the surface level, you're like, oh, no. But it's like, no, it's a symptom of something great. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, and that's why they're this revived. is starting and it's like, I think it's waves of revival that we're seeing because, okay, fine,

whatever, people got into witchcraft. They're going to learn what I learned. That it doesn't, I mean, it works on the outside, but you find out you're a puppet on a string. It doesn't work in the sense of you're not free. You're not saved. It's not bringing you joy. People can manifest, which is witchcraft, by the way, because it's just like basically writing

spells and attracting things to yourself, which is like the root of why people do spells. they're getting all these things are manifesting and they have power and they have beauty and they have everything they want and they're still empty. And if you have to get to rock bottom like I did, you know what I mean? That's people's journey. But they're finding out that, okay, this isn't working. I need Jesus. And, you know, it's the beauty of it, like you said. And I just, I just can't wait to see what the Lord's going to do because I do think there are more waves of these harvest that are coming, especially with whenever we're in seasons like this, like there's wars going on around the world.

There's such heartbreaking things. The Lord will use those things like we saw during COVID, like to till the soil and prepare people's hearts because it pulls people out of their comfort zone. Their face with the reality, it gets them thinking about eternity, kind of like when you're at a funeral. You know, God is on your mind.

You're thinking what's going to happen to me. And so the Lord uses these really horrible circumstances to plant those seeds. and reap a harvest. Yeah, absolutely. Listen, I really appreciate you coming in today. Before we end things, the book's not out yet, but when is it coming out and where can people get it?

Because I think people listening to the show and stuff, if you like this conversation, you've got to get the book because it's going to go in a lot more detail there. It is. So much detail. Every chapter kind of dives into a lot of these hot topics, like psychics and astrology and even things like blood rituals. and it really breaks down the hidden demonic things behind them

and points you to what the Bible actually says. And at the end of each chapter, there's a freedom prayer. So if you've ever opened up the doors to anything generationally or yourself, it literally, it's like if I could sit down with a girl who says, I was a witch or I am a witch, and I want to be free and I want to know Jesus, it's everything that I would sit down and walk with this girl through. I put it in a book because I want people to be free and decide. and walking with the Lord. Like, that's it. That's, that's the agenda. And so basically, that's what

this is a manual for. It comes out August 12th, 2025, when anyone's watching after the fact. And it's available Barnes & Noble, Target, and Amazon, and different book retailers and things like that. Awesome. Yeah. How does it feel to have a book going into Target? Crazy. Okay. Let me say, let me say one more thing because it's crazy to me. So when I gave my life Back to the Lord. All those years ago, seven, seven and a half years ago, I don't, maybe, I think it's actually coming on eight years. I'm so bad with, with the remembering, I have mom brain. I'll blame it on that. So when I gave my life back to the Lord, I had a vision and it was the cover of this book. This, this, nothing, well, it was just this picture. Okay. And I saw it and I saw it on the shelf and Target. And I never had any plans to write a book. I said, oh, that's going to be an album. That'll be my first album. Because I was doing music. at the time. And all these years later, it's the same picture, going to be sold in Target, but it was a book, not music. And so it's unreal. I never plan on any of it. But I just pray that the Lord does whatever he needs to do through it, that it gets into the hands of every

single person who needs it. Because I just believe it was a God assignment. And I don't, I don't like take it, oh, that's my thing. Like, this was the Lord's idea. He gets the glory. I just want everybody who needs what's in here to get it. Mm-hmm. I agree. I absolutely agree. And it's just funny because you just said that and it sparked this thing in my thought I had earlier about the music because it just like I was talking about like how your life

goes through these stages and you you called yourself a Christian as a child. You were a Christian, but you went through these stages of dabbling with other things and mixing stuff. I, your life, I think, mirrors so many other people's lives that they could relate to. And the word that keeps coming to me is gray. Like, we find ourselves living in gray areas. Yeah. Or it's like, it's not white.

It's not black. It's like, are you Christian or not? I was like, I'm Christian, but I'm also a witch. You know, like it's like, it's gray areas. And it's just like, you know, if you find yourself living in gray areas, like, I mean. There's abundant life for you. Very. There's so much more for you.

Yeah. Just mediocrity. Absolutely. Well, hopefully people enjoy the conversation. and I encourage people to look at the book and stuff. We'll link it in the description of this episode. Thank you so much for having me. It's been amazing.

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