The Confessionals - 810: The Pagan Rituals an FBI Agent Saw

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

An FBI Agent goes undercover inside America’s darkest pagan cults… and discovers something far more sinister than criminal activity. Rituals. Blood offerings. Blóts. Pagan ceremonies that weren��t just symbolic, something was responding.In this exclusive interview, a retired federal agent, Scott Payne, recounts the supernatural encounters he experienced while infiltrating extremist groups who blended ideology with occult ritual. What started as an investigation into domestic terror slowly revealed a deeper war, one not fought with weapons, but with spirits, influence, and ancient forces still active today.Inside these pagan rituals, the Kingdom of Darkness wasn’t just present… it looked back.If you’re interested in the supernatural world behind real investigations, spiritual warfare, cults, rituals, and the hidden battle influencing culture today, this is an episode you won’t forget.Please pray for Tony's wife, Lindsay, as she battles breast cancer. Your prayers make a difference!If you’re able, consider helping the Merkel family with medical expenses by donating to Lindsay’s GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/b8f76890Become a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZThe Counter Premieres 7 PM CST 11/18/25The Counter (YouTube): WATCH HEREThe Counter (Full Episode): WATCH HERETony's Recommended Reads: slingshotlibrary.comIf you want to learn about Jesus and what it means to be saved: Click HereBigfoot: The Journey To Belief: Stream HereThe Meadow Project: Stream HereMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comMy New YouTube ChannelMerkel IRL: @merkelIRLMy First Sermon: Unseen BattlesSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] PayneInstagram | Code Name: Pale HorseMAILING ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelProduced by: @jack_theproducerOUTRO MUSICJoel Thomas - AdiósYouTube | Apple | Spotify

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Thank you. Merkel Media This was all circulating around the base that a giant had been killed but no one was supposed to talk about it Boney fingers reach up underneath the door

curl up to grab it and then disappear When he came over to me dude he slithered over to me and this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen and he starts running and firing at this giant With a giant move, he's got a spear in one hand, and he's running really fast.

And spears, Dan, holds him up like this. Somebody else, shoot him in the face, shoot him in the face. They basically decapitated. When he got about 15 yards away from me, I blow this head off. I feel something pulling at my leg. And I look over, and there are two small gray entities pulling it. And they're literally, I'm getting pulled off. that I reached my hand into this bush and I touched air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know I'm seeing a monster.

Welcome to the show, everybody. You're listening to The Confessionals Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Merkel. Thanks for being here. If you have something to want to contribute to the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. My email address is contact at theconfessionalspodcast.com. That's Contact at the Confessionalspodcast.com. Or go to the website, theconfessionalspodcast.com. Hit the contact section and you can reach me that way as well. Either what works for me, just get hold of me. If you want more shows on a weekly basis, just become a member to the Confessionalspodcast.com slash join. There you're going to be able to get access to the Confessionals Members app, which is a social media platform where we house membership content within it. You will have your own profile page. You'll be able to talk to other listeners, DM people,

and listen to the show right there on the app. If that interests you, go to the Confessionalspodcast.com slash join. Also check out Merkmerch.com for your MerckMedia Apparel T-shirts, hoodies, hats, and Merklefilms.com for on-demand streaming. We have new documentaries on there, and last week we dropped our very first docu-series called Bigfoot,

The Journey to Believe. It is a banger. You got to check it out, merklefilms.com. Now, before we get today's show, I got to announce to you guys, I had a unique opportunity to be on a new TV show called The Counter, hosted by Pastor Troy Brewer. This is a discussion panel TV show

with people like Alan De Deo, Joseph Z, Darren Stott, Brian Schwartz, and myself. And we're talking about things that the church typically does not talk about. And today, the very first episode drops on Pastor Troy's YouTube channel at 7 p.m. Central Standard Time. And we're talking all about portals. I hope to see you there at the world premiere of the counter. Now, today, I got a show for you because I sat down with former FBI undercover agent Scott Payne for a long, intense conversation about his work, infiltrated. biker gangs, white supremacist organizations, and occult organizations, our talk moved from his

real encounters with evil and spiritual warfare to my own reflections on faith, prayer, and the supernatural realities behind the darkness we all face. Let's get to today's conversation right now. All right. Scott Payne, how are you, man? I am good. I'm glad you're here. Listen, before we get going on anything else, I got to say your last name, Payne, Scott Payne. Is this a pen name or is this really your name? No, that's my name. Dude, like, how crazy is it that you've done all this stuff and you have this name that just seems to be straight for the movies? You know, like...

Yeah. Like, I've seen the video game. It's like Max Payne and stuff like, well, they made a movie as that too. I mean, think about it. Like, if you weren't FBI, the... And you took your life and to say you actually became a biker gang guy. It's literally the perfect, the perfect name, Scott Payne. Never thought of that way.

It's like the club leader right there. Yeah. I usually, my family usually yells at me because... They're like, why couldn't your name be like, feel good or happy? Being in pain comes along with the territory, I guess. But yeah, that's good. So you talk about a lot of how, I forget how you phrase it, but essentially you took cases and stuff that you basically would fit. And so like the way you look, the tats, the hair, like you look like you'd be a biker gang guy.

And so this wasn't a schick. This was just like your thing. like you're into bikes and everything. And so it wasn't like too hard to blend in with that kind of crowd. No, and I tried to, no matter what role I was playing, I tried to stay close to who I am. Makes it easier. Yeah. I mean, if I go out there and act like I'm a biker and I don't know the thing about bikes or riding a motorcycle, that's not going to last long or go good.

Yeah. So I just use my skill set. But a lot of times, as far as the undercover stuff goes, I mean, we're so diverse, or at least the unit was. So I might not be the right person for the case, you know. I'm a talker. I'm a bigger guy. I'm a loud, you know, a boisterous big splash, you know. And that may not fit into certain things, you know.

Like I make a joke about it, but I never got called to do a Wall Street gig. Yeah. I'm like, I could be like an old tycoon with a cowboy hat. But they're like, nah. They're like, you're going to need a shave. Yeah, I'm like, nope, all right. Long-sleeve shirts. Yeah.

Armani suit. Yeah. I mean, I feel like the journey your life took doing undercover work, though, I mean, in the moment when you're doing all these undercover operations and gigs, do you feel like you're living in a storybook at times? Because, I mean, like, afterwards, like, hearing your career and a story, it's like, holy cow. But, like, in the moment, do you, do you, like, recognize what you're doing is something that, like,

is, like, hey, one day, I'm going to write a book about this. Not during. but maybe afterwards. Yeah. Because Deer and I'm probably more in work mode. Yeah. You know, I've got enough to worry about. If you're in undercover, you've got plenty to worry about not slipping up, gaining trust.

And we're, then our goal is to get evidence, you know, whether the case is, if it's a criminal case, somebody reported on it and that's how it started or somebody's been popped or arrested or something, we're in there to gather evidence. of criminal activity, if it's a criminal case. Yeah. If it's foreign counter intelligence, we're just getting intelligence, but same difference. But yeah, I don't,

it's up, it's up to us if we're being proactive to go in there. And I've said this on plenty of interviews, but I mean, I've been undercover in cases or I've ran undercover cases six months. And at the end of the six months, we're like, okay,

there's nothing here. There's nothing here, there's nothing here at least for federal prosecution. And, all right, At least we know. We were proactive. We tried.

And now we can show that, you know, this person wasn't doing anything illegal or, you know, this is what they're doing. Yeah. So, all right. On like a personal side, you're investing your time and energy into a case. You're gathering information. Are there points where you start suspecting there is something going on only to find out there's not? And you're just like, dang, I feel like I just wasted my time. I don't know if I look back and say I wasted my time.

Like there was one case. It was an acceleration. type group, which was the white supremacy neo-Nazi, I mean, I think for five months straight, I went through thousands of posts a day because there were many people in this thing, but they're all over the world. So you go to sleep for six, eight hours or whatever, and you wake up, and you're 1,500 to 2,500 post behind. And for that five months, for that five months, I would go back and I would look at every

post in this group because. I knew what the reporting was, and I didn't want to, I'm, I'm anal. I'm a professional. You don't want to miss that one post. Yeah, I don't want it. That's a bad to happen because I missed it. So I go through everything. But after five months, I'm like, okay, you know, these guys are not, they're talking trash,

but they're not doing anything. It's all First Amendment protected. And basically, I'm not going to keep doing it for another five months. Yeah. I'm like, I'm done. Yeah. It's taking a lot of time, you know. But we did our due diligence, and you can show, okay.

well, we've met these people or whatever and it's all documented and, you know, maybe later on they do something that puts an investigation back on them or maybe there's all kinds of ways to end that, or not necessarily end it, but close out that part of it. Like if I'm a case agent, I may just say, okay, now let's go pull you over. Let me call you and say, hey, can we meet? And then we'll talk about what was going on. Yeah. You know. So when people, so I mean, people get, get on the radar and they'll be, I guess they'll be talking stuff online or whatever.

Is it more often than not that people are more talked than anything? Or is it like they just, they just never have the right environment to actually execute on what they're talking about? A little of both. It's going to be a case-by-case basis. But I think, like, if you look at the majority of people talking trash, like, just on the white supremacy side. or the anti-government side, because that's what I infiltrated.

Now, I've got peers, mentors and people I've been blessed to mentor, that have infiltrated the international terrorism, extremism side, or the far-left extremism side. But I'd say the majority, maybe is trash-talking, but that's the big, that's one of the big issues working domestic terrorism. There's no domestic terrorism statute. So you're sitting here looking at this barrel of fish, and you're seeing thousands of people posting some of the most horrific,

hateful stuff you've probably ever seen, but it's First Amendment protected. But how do we know which one of those may turn into the next active shooter? Yeah. Who kills people at a black church in Charleston or shoots up a school or shoots up a

Walmart or whatever. That's why you've got to stay vigilant and you just always going and going and going. Yeah, I can understand that. It seems like it seems like a storybook, though, just reading about your life and hearing you talk about it and stuff, it just seems like, holy cow, but when you, when it's all started

out and we were talking a little bit about before, and before we started recording, you brought up the spiritual warfare aspect of things. And I totally want to go down that route because, I mean, like, I talk about that stuff a lot. Just, I don't think people totally understand the aspects of just our everyday existence in life and the spiritual warfare that's a, that, that applies to it. And then with the stuff that you were involved in, I can only imagine. But the background of you is you were raised in a Christian home and even like your grandparents or grandfathers were pastors. Yeah, both grandfathers. Yes.

So before. Southern Baptist. Yeah. I was kind of, I was really surprised by just the twist and turns of how your life took because, you know, my grandfather, he was a pastor as well. And I've gone through, you know, dark periods of my life. but I've never done the witchcraft Satan, Satan worship stuff. And I was just like, how does somebody who has two pastor grandfathers, raising a Christian home in their teenage years, go down that path?

Like, how did that all kind of happen for you? Well, for me, looking back on it, as you get older, you can look back and you can kind of see, oh, okay, I'll see what happened there. For me, it was the 80s. and my parents had gotten divorced, and I basically just developed an I don't care attitude because it would be like, hey, are you okay with this?

Yeah, I don't care. You understand what's happening when your mom and dad? Yeah, I don't care. And not saying that's what did it, but I just got this kind of like, I don't care attitude. And I had a friend who introduced me into like the witchcraft stuff. And I mean, I started, yeah,

I think I started playing music when I was in like seventh grade. So we were already like doing little rock, bands and stuff in high school. But in the 80s, I mean, I love, I love hair metal. I still do. But, I mean, you know, certain bands would have the, you know, pentagram, all this stuff. But, yeah, I started diving into witchcraft.

And then that led straight into Satanism and devil worshiping. And really, if I'm looking back as a young man kind of lost, it's just looking, you want to belong and you're looking for power. You know, it just feels like, oh, I can get more power. this way and man i don't know why i i mean really how i why i kept going so far down it because i was losing my friends i was doing this stick where i would like uh act like kind of like a freddie kruger voice but worse and and i just got in a dark place man i was really studying it like alistair crowley you know contracts with the devil things like that and and i was um

I would go rent all the movies that were horror, and I would watch A to Z. And I started kind of doing this kind of demonic thing. And I remember scaring people at like a keg party or something. I remember making people cry. Cry? Yeah. Wow. Because it's talking evil stuff.

And I pretty much kind of blocked it from my memory. I remember stuff I was saying. You ruined the party, man. Yeah, I know. Yeah. And my friends who were still a tight group today. But we all think it's because of the generation we grew up in and the things we went through. We are still super tight, that main crew from high school.

But I was losing them as friends. And it was kind of like, you know, man, what are you doing? Yeah. And I didn't care. And one night I was, we went to a party. I didn't drive there. And just drinking. No psychedelics.

Nothing else. It's just alcohol. And I remember at that point, I was kind of full-blown on doing the stick and the skits. And I imitated a scene from a movie. I'd watched where it was a demonic possession. So what you hear is like my voice talking, and then I would talk in the demon voice. And then it would be my voice saying, no, no, no. And then the demon voice saying, yeah, why I'm doing this, I have no idea.

I mean, it was just all evil. I was just in a bad place. But the end of the scene is that the demon wins. possesses the person. So I'm laying on a couch facing the back of the couch. I'm just laying there. And when I laughed like the demon, as if the demon has won and taken over my body, I rolled over, well, I was laughing. And when I rolled over, all I saw was a, it was like a red, watery image. Everything was red. And it was kind of like a ripple. Like if you look at the ripples, you know, that kind of wavy. Yeah. It was that. And it was a demon looking at me. me with like a long just looking at me smiling saying come here um like he had me and man i i scream

probably just as far as that i mean just to reach to the light off the couch to sit up and cut the light on i scream bloody murder and uh i cut the light on and my friend who's still my one of my best friends was in the room and he jumps up he's like man what the heck is going on you know and i'm like I'm white as a sheet. I'm pouring sweat. I'm panting. And he's like, what is, what happened? What is it?

And I'm like, I looked at him and I said, if I ever do that again, anything. If I talk like that, if I ever do this again, I said something to the effect. If you have the permission to take a bat and crack me over the skull with it. And everything in the room went calm and he looked at me like it wasn't even him. Like the Holy Spirit just filled him. He looked at me because the whole. his baseline. It wasn't his normal baseline, facial expression, everything. He just went and looked at me and said, I told you, didn't I? That was it, man. I didn't sleep. I walked

to Edward Rose Edwards Road Baptist Church. That was a Saturday night, so I didn't sleep. I walked to church, and I remember how I got home. But yeah, I sat through every service, and that was it for me. I was done with devil worshiping. So it took seeing demonic entities, and you were just, I'm out. So when you were doing that, you mentioned about the idea of power in teenage years, I got to understand that. Was that the goal, though, because you were studying Alistair Crowley, like, I mean, it seems like, because I have a friend who kind of went down a similar path at one point. And for him, it was all about, like, gaining power. He's a very talented musician. He wanted to kind of rise these ranks.

He wanted to use every power he could to do that. It's kind of in there because you got that old proverbial crossroad story, right? Yeah. sign a pack with the devil so you can make it as a musician kind of thing. I was looking at stuff like that. I just kept going. Yeah. You know, it's like I didn't do anything halfway.

And I still probably don't. I really don't do anything halfway. But yeah, I was in it to win it, man. And I was at the point to where I was ready to sign in blood. But what I found out later growing up is that even though they may not have known what was going on with me at the time, I had prayer warriors, like my grandmother, my mom, my dad, and they didn't know what I was. They had no idea what I was doing, but those prayers were there the whole time. Yeah.

I think that's important to emphasize the power of prayer. I mean, I, you know, I'm in the middle of the seat. I told you about my wife. Like, I'm in a season right now where I'm constantly asking for prayer. I mean, I remind people every time we open up a show, there's a clip that just says, hey, just reminder, my wife has cancer, please pray for her. because I'm extremely sensitive and aware to the power of prayer now. I have been, obviously, but it's just like, it's one of those things where when you,

when you put yourself in a situation where you're like, I need prayer, it's like all of a sudden it's like a heightened sense to it. It's just like, it's easy to say it when you're going to say, oh, I'll pray for you, you know? But when you need the prayer, it's like, please, everybody pray for me, you know? But that's really cool. So you're doing that as a teenager. you get through that.

Do you think that if you would have say you didn't have that experience with that demonic entity and you would have kept on going into that, do you think you would have even wound up in law enforcement? Oh, probably not. Yeah?

Yeah. There's plenty of things I can look at and say I wouldn't have gone in law enforcement. But that's helped me throughout my career. Like I can sit down with somebody. I mean, not a pedophile, but I mean, I can sit down with most people,

even when I'm undercover. And I'm like in there with them, I'm like, that could have been me. That could have been me. I don't really dehumanize, you know. I can look and go, okay, well, I mean, so people can make bad choices. You know, like I tell people, like, I committed all kinds of crimes. I didn't get arrested and prosecuted had I been.

I'd never be able to be a FBI agent. Right. But I'm not coming from some clean chalkwalk in place, you know. But that's always, I think that helped me later on in life. dealing with the things I did. Yeah, absolutely. So you get into law enforcement and you get into the FBI. How does that process work for you?

I mean, so when you get in the FBI, are you just doing, what, generic work or something? How do you actually get involved in the undercover work? Is that a volunteer base? Do they recommend you? It's volunteer, but I'd already started it as a cop. Okay. I was at Greenville County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina for five years. So three in uniform, doing uniform.

doing uniform patrol stuff, and then two is a vice narcotics investigator. So when I became a vice narcotics investigator, I went to the state, it's the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy and went to take undercover techniques, one week's school. Then you take like surveillance techniques

and stuff like that and technical surveillance, like placing cameras and doing things like that. And on the narcotic squad, well, then you start running sources and then you go do some buys. if you want to. And that's where the bug got me. I mean, it matched my skill set because I've always loved connecting with people,

no matter shape, size, background, doesn't matter. I love it. A good motley crew, you know? But that's why I started doing undercover work on the state and local level. So when I got to the FBI, the only thing you're required to be is a case agent. Now it changed a little bit under Mueller because he wanted to do some weird stuff. But essentially, you come in and you are a case agent first. If you want to be SWAT, that's extra.

Those are all collateral duties. Was I SWAT? Yeah. Was I a firearms instructor? Yeah. Was I a tactical instructor and the lead tactical instructor? Yeah. Active shooter response?

Yes. Delete. Yeah. All that defensive tactics, all that undercover. It's all collateral duties. Until the day they say, like if you're in a big office and you're running, fire, okay, you're a full-time firearms instructor. Or you go back to Quantico and you teach.

On the undercover, for me and my career, I think twice I was listed as full-time. All the other times, I was running cases. I'd go back, I'd go do the undercover, but when I came back to my division and sat down at my desk, my boss's expected me to run a case load and sources and I'm training people, I'm teaching, I'm learning, and we're running and gunning. Jeez. Yeah. So what was the first case that you took on?

Was it the outlaws or? For undercover? Yeah. And the FBI. I did several cameos for the FBI before I got certified as an undercover. And. Cameos, so it's just like a one-off? Yeah, like a new, so it'd be more like the, it'd be more like the state and local.

Like when I was on our Codotid Squad, you go and make a buy, maybe two buys, maybe three buys, then we hit it with a search warrant. So when I say cameos, it would be like I'm on the Colombian Drug Squad in New York City. And let's just say LA takes off FBI, Los Angeles, takes off a load of dope that's supposed to come to New York. Well, then they send us a lead. We start talking on the phone. And they say, hey, it's supposed to go here. So it would be me and a task force officer with NYPD.

We'd jump in a truck that's rented or whatever. And we'd go deliver that dope load to the people that's supposed to go to so we can pop them. So that's what I mean by cameo, something like that. And then I landed an undercover. um in san antonio texas and i got approved for 30 days before i was certified in the fbi but i got like it would call like sac approval so the higher ups approved me to come in even though i wasn't certified and after 30 days i was pretty much the primary um yeah 30 days and they extended me like 60 and then i was the primary and from that point on i was full-time undercover in san an

Antonio, Texas, and the way it works is you have to renew your operation every six months. So when they renewed it, they put in the renewal a full cost transfer for me because I was full time. So I don't ever talk about that case much because it was foreign counterintelligence. And we're almost to the point to where it could be declassified. Yeah. Because it's usually 25 years. And that was in 2001.

But yeah. But what it did is it allowed me to get my foot in the door of the undercover program of the FBI, and it allowed me to get it transferred out of New York City. That's always good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed New York, and I still love New York. I've been going up there a lot lately since the book came out.

But it was, you know, a single guy, and then my girlfriend, who's now my wife, moved out there with me. But when we got to McCall in Texas, I mean, it was on the border. and some people, it's all in the eye of the beholder, right? Some people are like, oh my gosh, man, you're on the border. And I'm like, yeah, but I got a garage. Yeah. I got a parking spot. I got a washing and dryer hookup.

Yeah. I don't even have to have the washing dryer yet. I just got a place to hook it up. Yeah. I'm just happy. Don't have to go out every other day and move my car to the other side of the road kind of thing. So, yeah, eye of the beholder. Yeah.

And I was on the border for six and a half years. And then they came out with a new policy and basically it says if you've been in a hard to staff office for five or more years, name where you want to go. Wow. And I'd been down there six and a half at that point. So that's what I came to East Tennessee. Wow. Wow.

So that's what brought you to East Tennessee. Okay. Yeah. I chose it. You chose it. Yeah. Now, you're originally from South Carolina. Mm-hmm.

And so just personal. What's the better side of the mountain? This side of the mountain or that side of the mountains? Ooh. I'm going to say this one. Yeah. Well, my Greenville people are going to get mad at me. My Greenville's far as people.

Man, I work the beach. area up there a good bit. And so, I mean, my first beat area went to the North Carolina state line. Very rural. But yeah, we didn't have, like right here, where I live here, man, what, 30 minutes? You're in the Blue River. I mean, Smoky Mountains. You're in the Smoky Mountains, and you're all over the place. You go up to Fontana Dam, you can get

right the tail of the dragon, whatever you want. Yeah, I'll say here. Yeah. I mean, I know from this studio, we can be up in the mountains in about 10 minutes. Yeah. And it's just great. Plus, also in this area, even though you do have a lot of lakes surrounding you and some rivers in the Greenville, South Carolina area. Here, we've got seven major lakes, three major rivers. Yep. You know, you got 75, 40, 81.

You can be in Chicago in eight hours. Yeah. You know, it's pretty good spot. Yeah, I've done it. No, I love it here. I love it. When I came down from Philly, I was actually planning on going to Nashville because of what I do, I was like a probably Nashville's spot to settle in that. But when I was driving through West Virginia, or Virginia, and I saw the mountains, I was just like, I don't think I can go past Knoxville.

And so here I am to stay, I'd say. So I don't know if it was before we started recording or during this recording, but you mentioned about, I think, working a case in the Appalachas. Well, I was just talking about the, I was talking about the accelerationist groups talking about taking over property. That's right. and creating their own ethnic mistake. So was that like a real, like, concern? Well, I mean, the concern is, are you going to harm people and commit crimes to get it kind of thing, which generally you probably have to do?

Well, I'll take it back. You could buy a property, but at some point we'd probably do it with something. Yeah, I know, right. Yeah. So, no, the accelerationsist group, which is kind of like the, for the book, that's kind of the story. It starts with like the intro is me meeting this group for the first time face to face, and then the book ends with that takedown. Because even though I did other undercovers before I retired,

I didn't mention them in the book because they were still active. Yeah. You know, and I didn't know because this, by the way, in order to do a book, if you were a former FBI, it has to go through FBI pre-publication. And that's not just FBI pre-publication unit. If in this book, Chapter 3 and on, is all FBI cases. So if it was a biker case, then it has to go through that unit that works the biker clubs. If it was a domestic terrorism case, it has to go through the domestic terrorism unit.

If it was a public corruption case, same thing. Because it's all undercover, it's got to go through the entire undercover unit. And then they go to the field offices. So if I did a case in Boston, it's got to be approved by Boston. And it's all to make sure you're not burning any active sources, active undercovers, active cases. You're not giving away classified information. So, yeah, it took eight and a half months just to get that. Did you have to edit down anything?

Like a lot? Not a lot. So it was pretty much all cleared. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, we did our due diligence. Yeah. And I get, they got to do their job.

And we get along pretty good. And I understand the process. But they're just really understaffed. Yeah. And underfunded. So it takes a long time. But, yeah, I put it through there. And, you know, I didn't, we didn't have a lot.

a lot of redactions. I've known some people who got their manuscript back and it was like all black. You don't have a book. Start over. You got to figure out what you got to. Are you going to tell me which part you blacked out? No, you got to figure that out. All right, let me start looking. But it wasn't too bad at all. So you referenced a couple of times about the, I don't know how to describe it because, I mean, you mentioned about paganism, but you also mentioned about like, in one of the stories I heard you telling about, the what would Satan do bracelet that you saw? That was the biker case. Was that the biker case?

Like, do you, and we can go into these stories for sure. But like the overall senses, I guess, of with what the different groups that you were working within, do you, because like from my perspective, as somebody who's never gone through it, but like, I'm very devout Christian, do you feel like there is like a satanic element that kind of just is underlying a lot of this industry, would we call it? an industry like like because it just criminal activity criminal activity yeah it just feels like there is a certain level of darkness whether they acknowledge it or not it just feels like there is this like demonic undertone to a lot of this stuff i would say yes um but i've definitely felt it more on

some cases or or just me being a case agent and interviewing somebody or arresting somebody and then interviewing them and they've murdered tons of people you know and you're looking at them and they're they were raised in another country uh uh by the age of 13, they've probably already killed eight people. They've seen people murdered and laying in the street rotten and they got to step over them. And your brain's not even set up. You're not even developed yet.

Yeah. You're a kid. So you look at some of those people that's that thousand yards stare. Yeah. They're just like gone. You know? Yeah. Short of a miracle from God, in my opinion.

It's just, they're just gone. And then you sit across the table. from some people, or you meet them in an undercover environment where they are just evil. And you know, you're just looking at them and going, this person's just evil. You know, you can feel it. You can see it. And, uh, and I mean, I know what evil is. I mean, I've seen it and I've been it.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, that was, uh, on that biker case, it was a, it was a person I'd befriended. And, uh, what I was talking about is like, it gets, even though you're trained and, you know, I'm still human, you know, I'm like, I'm really getting along with this person. I'm bouncing their one-year-old daughter on my lap instead of my one-year-old daughter. You know, they like to fight. I like to fight. They like to drink.

I like to ride, lift. All the same here. And then you're, not that I'm going to turn bad and, you know, go on the dark side from the FBI. But, you know, you're sitting there and pulls at your heartstrings a little bit. And I looked over at his refrigerator and he had a bunch of, he had a bunch of stickers and magnets. And one of them was WWSD. And I remember looking at it and I'm like, WWSD. and instead of what would Jesus do, it was what would Satan do?

And I was like, that snapped me. I was like, oh, yeah, I know what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm like, you know. But I've later heard that it was supposed to mean, what would Scotty do? Because his name was Scott, too. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, man, I'm like, now, there's no way I would have come up with Satan unless it set it under it. Yeah.

WWSD, what would Satan do? Or you told me that. I said, I'm not going to insert Satan into it, you know. But it's, uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, that's, uh, uh, that's, uh, snapped me into it. But if you're talking about like, um, so like the Pagan's, that that's going to get towards the, uh, the accelerations groups. So, okay, I wasn't sure that what, which group that was. Yeah. So the accelerationist group, groups, what it is, is, um, it's pretty, it's pretty prominent now. But when we were

getting into it, I think the big, big ones were like Adam Woffin and the base. And, uh, I helped a little bit on the on the initial thing with adam waffin but i wasn't the primary i was just there as a backup uh undercover and then i infiltrated the base uh i say i but it was we a team but i'm the undercover right um and the way the explain it is this so when you talk about white supremacy a lot of people always picture like kKK they picture hoods and burning crosses and stuff like that. That's not this. These aren't people, the accelerationists,

some neo-Nazis, they'll be out there on the side of the street with their signs and picket signs and protesting and yelling. An accelerationist goes, they call it the siege movement or siege culture. And there's a book called Siege that was written by James Mason, long-time white supremacists. But it's essentially a bunch of interviews that he's piled into a book. but he idolizes people like Charles Manson and talk to Charles Manson regularly. You know, so there's some demonic stuff, right?

And you start diving in, and this is what an accelerationist believes. They don't believe that there's a political solution to save the white race. They believe that society is going to collapse on its own or from man-made events, and they want to speed it up. So when they speed it up, they do it through like guerrilla warfare, so it's little hits everywhere.

It's like poisoning of war. water system, taking down a power supply, derail in a train, things like that, killing a lefty journalist or anti-Fash people. And they want to speed up the downfall of society so they can create their ethno state. But that's pretty much the way all extremist views are. If it's the radical jihad, they end up with a caliphate. If it's far left and it's sociologists, you know, It's funny because if you look, you know, far left here, far right here, they want to go far right's Hitler, but socialist. And then this is socialist. And you get down here, it's like, y'all just want to.

You just want something for free. You just want to sit around and do nothing and get free food and stuff. Wow. All right. Let's take a second. Talk about our sponsor today, which is Common Goods. The countdown is on holiday shipping season is officially here. Uncommon Goods takes to stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high-quality fines.

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Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com slash Tony. That's UncommonGoods.com slash Tony for 15% and off. Uncommon goods were all out of the ordinary. The accelerationists, at least the group I infiltrated, it said they would take Christians or pagans. But let's be clear, when I say Christians, it's not Christianity. They call it Christian identity. And that was brought in by white supremacist, Reverend Butler, the old

Aryan nations. And they take the story of the Bible and they twist it. Like so Adam and Eve, they look at Adam and Eve in the garden, Garden of Eden, fruit of the forbidden tree. Eve does it. We're all, whatever, doomed, you know. They twist it to this. The fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act.

The serpent is a man of color, aka Satan. and they're saying that the sexual act between Eve and Satan birthed cane. And that's the, what they call the mud race from that point on, non-whites. But the sexual act between Adam and Eve birthed Abel. And that's the pure white race. Wow. That's just one of the many views where they twist the living crap out of it to meet their ideology. It doesn't even sound like there's a reason for that theology.

It's just, I don't know what they were on when they made it up. Wow. And they were even called Church of Jesus. Christ Christian. So you think you might be going to a church, you know, you got to be careful. So on the pagan side, I know, right? Can you imagine like out-of-town visitors that like, like, black people from New York or something like, oh, it looks like church and walk in. It's like, oh, that's not the right one. You're not allowed in here. Wow. Yeah. So paganism, I've got friends who are pagans. Most of them are very peaceful. And there's different pantheons. So if you're in the

Norse Pantheon, which is a lot of people are familiar with, you got Odin and, you know, Thor and all these other gods and Freya and it's a little Viking-ish kind of thing, but this goes way deeper. But what the white supremacists do is they twist that to meet their ideology. In other words, like in that case, we had a blot and we were going to go on the, it was going to signify the wild hunt. Well, the wild hunt in Norse mythology is Odin and a bunch of gods going out and whipping their, their, their, enemies all through the night. But in the white supremacy version, it's going to be us going out and ridden the world of anti-fash and non-whites. So they just twisted. But what we've, what at least what I found, through working with sources and working

these types of cases that generally speak and most of your accelerationist groups, if you scratch at the surface long enough somewhere in that group, you're going to find somebody that's got satanic ties. They're going to be like an order of nine angles. What's sad? It's white supremacy, accelerationism, very, very satanic. Wow.

They dive into like, it's almost like a celestial thing where they're talking about demons before I can't, I didn't get too deep into it. Probably good. Yeah, I'm just like, I, you know. But it's, it's demons and,

it's the demons and angel stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. But you're going to find that Satanism. them. And then you've got, what is it, seven, is it seven, two, four or seven six four? That group is out now? I have no idea. So that's another one. They are not necessarily all white supremacists, but they are accelerationists.

Hmm. Heavily satanic. And when you get into that order of nine angles and that seven, two, four, six four. Yeah, I know. Seven, there's cases over there. Seven, six four. Seven, six four. Thank you.

Seven, six four. So it's horrific stuff. It's Satanism. It's rape. It's pedophilia. They're huge on it. And they're like going online. And most of the ones they've been flipping, and I'll explain flipping, or in trapping is what I should say, is tweens and it's boys.

So they'll get somebody and there's like even a scoring system. So they will either get you to do something bad on camera and now they've got it and now they're sex-storting you, you know. or just exhorting you, period. And they're having, like, live view parties where you have to harm yourself, cut yourself open, and they're watching it. And they're telling you, if you don't do that, they're going to send it out and, you know,

basically docks you, but spread it all over the place. And it's very, very evil. And they even call it like a bean. So if you cut a bean open, like a navy bean or a lima bean, you know, that white. So when you cut through the fat, if you cut all the way through, that fat looks like the inside of a bean.

so they call it a bean that's just one of the things wow it's a pretty pretty sick demonic stuff wow there so if you scratch what's going to say is if you scratch at the surface long enough on these accelerations groups at least up until the time i retired and thereafter um you're going to find probably somebody in there with an order of nine angles or some kind of satanic uh stuff going on jeez that's like that's another level so i i had suspicion that that would be you know the case and some that's pretty graphic yeah that's pretty graphic that's pretty graphic that's pretty Well, one of the guys in the base, so we were claiming pagan and we had our blot, which is like the ritual ceremony.

And the first one I ever attended and participated in wasn't really that bad. I mean, it wasn't evil, really, per se, except for one guy in the group. Well, you know, I said, I'm Norse Pantheon. I prayed to like rollo or something like that and into the gods. And they understand what that means. Yeah, we're doing this whole thing. And I'm also being coached because I'm like, hey, well, how does this work? I know this, but how does that work?

And the guy leading the block was actually in a Sotru guy. And it was, it was different. But when the one member got down and started praying to his guy and he said he was an Egyptian pantheon, man, he was before I knew about ordering nine angles and stuff. But the stuff he was praying, I was like, wow, I was just praying for like the white race. And I was kind of, you know, going with, you know, help us conquer, blah, blah, blah, and the pure white race and just jargon. He was getting into some, like, demonic flesh melting off bones, blood, demons. And I'm like, but we're all acting like we're still, I mean, at least I'm acting like I'm praying, you know, and I'm sitting here and I'm watching.

And while we've cut ourselves and bled on, they carve ruins and the wood and white supremacist symbols. And you cut yourself and bleed on that. And then we set it on fire. And while it's burning you pray. And I just remember going, man, this dude is in a dark spot. Yeah. So that's when I first started kind of seeing that. But I recognized it because, yeah, it's the same old thing, different, different day, right?

So, all right, you're participating, you know, acting in this, the ceremony or whatever it is, and you have to cut yourself, you guys carved the ruins in the wood to, so, all right, this is maybe a layered question. into your work, you know, obviously you're going into undercover work. You're not totally sure probably what direction is going to take ever. But you start going down this rabbit hole of, okay, we're pagan, we're doing these rituals. Now I'm carving ruins and cutting myself and letting it bleed on there. Did you ever feel like this is something that I might have baggage from spiritually that I need to work out? And did you ever, like, afterwards, feel like, hey, I feel like that brought something on to me, you know?

Not that blot. And again, I'm in work mode. Did I have to cut myself? No. You didn't? No, what I'm saying is, is for the job. Yeah. I mean, for the FBI as an undercover.

Do I have to cut me? No. I'm like, I'm like cutting myself. Yeah. Forget you guys. But I saw what we were doing. And I'm like, I can stab my finger, you know, like bleed on there. I was personally okay with doing it.

there was the blot that we did on the Halloween night of 2019, and that's where things got weird. That's when that four-day hate camp, we did, they went and stole a ram or a goat. I still don't know the difference, but it had horns. It was big. I don't know. I've talked to people.

I'll Google it. I still get confused. I'll try to figure it out later. It's not on the top of my list to accomplish things today. Yeah. But either way, they stole this goat. And we had been training all day. And then they had the little holy spot on this 100-acre farm in Rome, Georgia.

And that's where we'd done our blots before. And we went down in the woods with this goat and sacrificed it. Sacrifice it and drank his blood to kick off the wild hunt. And a lot of the people, a lot of people in the group did acid after that to help with the shaman, I'm like, I think you're just high. I don't think it's the shaman. But who am I to say, you know? But, yeah, we, they tried to chop the head of the goat off.

It didn't work. Shot it in the head. I asked him to put another round in it because it was still kicking like two minutes later. And then they've sliced his throat, filled a cup of blood, and everybody's on their knees in a circle except for me because it's pitch black. You know, so in the middle of the woods. So I'm shining a flashlight for the guy who went by the code name Eisen. He's the one that led the blood.

So he's got a sheet of acid. So he's going around to each person who wants to do the acid, and he's putting a hit under their tongue, and then they're chasing it with the blood to signify the sacrifice because this goat's now going to Odin, and this sacrifice is for Odin, and to kick off the wild hunt. And I went around,

and by the time it got to me, my turn to partake in the blood, it was all chunky and it was clotting it was coagulated and I'm looking down and going oh man I really don't want to turn this up you know and I think it was pestilence that gave me an out so I just took two fingers because I'm like man this is getting chunky and I took two fingers and deep into the blood and then sucked all the blood off my finger yeah so we did that and then they chopped the head of it off and we carried the head around for three or four days um taking pictures smells yeah right uh nyes are all yes weird and uh A lot of, kind of some demonic stuff going on there, man.

Yeah. They didn't want to claim pagan, but there's, and again, it wasn't pagan pagan, it was white supremacy pagan. But some demonic stuff. And then, then we went out and the last night was a Saturday night. That was a Thursday night. It was a Thursday night. We go back down.

And meanwhile, we're filming all this. This is all for propaganda videos as well because we're trying to recruit more young men to become part of the base and be a white supremacists. I'm going to have to ask you. I want to finish the story, but I want to know how does propaganda videos get distributed? It has to be sure. Dark web.

Yeah, dark web. But we'll talk about it. But so we go down there and now it's being filmed and everything, but we are now burning American flags. We're burning Holy Bibles. And while people are yelling, F, your Jewish God and death to America and all this stuff. And that one, yeah.

When I came back from that trip, I felt like I had something on me. I felt dirty. And I text my pastor. I was like, hey, I know it was hard for especially type A personalities to reach out for help. But, man, I could use some prayer because I'm like, I am not feeling it. You know, I feel weird. That rocked me.

But there was a real cool story about the Bibles. They didn't burn. It didn't burn? No. We had a bonfire going. And I even went back and watched the propaganda video. And I'm like, I swear, when he took the Bibles, he opened. them up, face open and laid them down on the fire.

At least three or more Bibles. And, you know, the flames go up, and then the fire starts dying down after a while. If you've ever seen a book or a magazine in a fire, you know, that kind of roughly layer on the pages. And one of the members starts stoking the colds to get the fire going again. And then a Bible just opens up. And the outside's charred a bit, but nothing. And I'm telling you, it laid it down like this. And I've heard people with science saying, well, you know, a lot of Bibles, the pages are made out of clay.

They don't burn. I'm like, whatever, bro. I saw American flags burn. I saw all kinds of stuff burning that day, you know. And here's the kicker. So that member who went by the code name Punished Snake starts tearing out page by page. Gets the fire going again. Stoke up to Coles.

We got a bonfire going again. And it dies down eventually again. He's stoking the cold, stoking the coals. Bible number two opens up and it's not burnt on the inside. And one of the members in the group, when that happened, and it's on the recording, and when he flipped it up and he goes, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn. And I remember like, looking like, I didn't do it like openly so people could see me, but in my mind and in my heart, I was looking up going, you know, I was like, nice, man.

I got you. I'm picking up what you're putting down. Yeah. But, yeah, man, it's just, it's some weird stuff. And there was evil there for sure. I remember the first time walking down to that blot area. I remember walking down in the woods. I'm a grown man.

You know, I've been through a lot. I'm not saying I don't get scared. I'm not, it's not saying, look, you're some super tough dude. It's just that I remember walking down in the woods, and we're walking and walking and it's pitch black,

and you can't see anything around you. And I'm, and I started getting scared. Yeah. Because now I'm going down to this blot, and I'm like, well, is this satanic? Is this pagan?

Are those spirits? And I just remember, thinking because again, I'm a jokester. I'm a jokester. But if you ever seen the movie Devil, that guy, that guy, that guy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He did it.

And I remember, I would have never watched it, but I was stuck at a hotel and I'm flipping channels. And I'm like, how can you make an entire movie about people trapped in an elevator about the devil? And I'd flip over and I'd flip back. I'd flip over and I'd flip back. Next thing you know, I'm like, oh, this is okay, okay, all right. Yeah.

So I was thinking in that vein, I'm like, well, if spirits and stuff start flying around, I guess I'll just try to kill everything and we'll figure out which one's the devil. Yeah. And that's what I was thinking about it. I'm like, but I remember walking out. I was getting butterflies. I'm like, and I remember thinking to myself, I'm freaking. I'm actually getting scared right now?

This is, you know, but I'm walking down. It was, it was, it was eerie. Yeah. I mean, I would be terrified. Yeah. Because, I mean. It wasn't Christ's filled. No, yeah.

Completely different feeling. Yeah. And so you're going down in the woods. And, I mean, I guess you know the people to the extent of your research and what the relations you built with them to that point. But man, like anything could go sideways down there. And I mean, I guess you're hanging with. Yeah.

Young white supremacist accelerationalist with guns. And like I said, sometimes they're on either Adderall or the one time they did acid. I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. You have no idea. What are they going to hallucinate at? You get snapped just like that. Yeah. You can just be your time to go super evil.

Oh, man. Was this North Georgia? Yeah, wrong, Rome, Georgia. Yeah, so, okay, because I wasn't sure where that part of Georgia was. Which should not be a downside to Rome, Georgia. Because I've met so many cops from there. Like I just talked probably about in the last month or two, I taught it the Georgia Gang Investigators Association.

So as I walk in, there's these cops going to go, hey, man, we're Rome PD. We were there when you were doing it. I'm like, well, hey, man, how's it going? So not that the town's full of white supremacists, this was a kid who lived on his father's 100-acre farm. Gotcha. And he was a member of the base. He was a cell leader.

Wow. So he's like a cult leader or something. Yeah. Yeah, because I know that in North Georgia, and I'll open to hear stuff, like the witchcraft is pretty strong. Oh. I've learned that just from moving down here and talking with people, which kind of makes sense because, like, you were talking earlier about being on the front lines with the spiritual warfare and stuff. And I have never felt so much like I'm on a front line of something until I moved here. Like when I was in Philadelphia, it was like, it just felt normal. It felt normal. Yeah, down here.

Do you desensitized to it? Now? No, up there. Well, up there, it's just different. Like, people, the culture, the people aren't really spiritually minded at all, really. It's a very atheistic. It's a different culture. I moved down here.

So it's kind of blended in with the racist stuff. Yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. Kids can pick up on evil way more than adults can because we're so desensitistic. Yeah, totally. Because like when I moved down here, it was like, you know, I moved down here to the Bible Belt and I was like, you know, I just needed to get away from the Philadelphia culture. I saw where things were going. I mean, if you look at Kensington and North Philadelphia, it's bad. Terrible. Yeah. And so like I came down. zombies, by the way. 100.

100. There's a guy on Instagram that every day he's going out, documenting it with his smart glasses. And he's a local guy. And he's trying to help people. He has a go fund me that he's raising money and he uses it to help people. And I'm trying to get him to come down here to talk with me because it's wild what's going on up there.

But coming down here, I knew I was coming into the Bible Belt, conservative culture. Then I felt that. When I first moved here, talking about desensitization, when I came here, I felt I was like, whoa, this is different. Like, you really actually felt it. Like, people were kinder. In fact, you were talking about the pedophilic nature of some of these groups. I looked at people sideways sometimes when I came here because I wasn't used to

the kindness. I would go to Home Depot with my kids. And the person working at Home Depot starts talking to my kid. I'm like, what are you doing? I'm being set up. It's like, into the point I was stickers and giving, I'm like, oh, this is what you guys do here. Okay. Well, listen, I don't feel bad because I am.

from the area, just on the other side of the mountain, grew up Southern. And when we came here, looking for a house, same thing. Everybody's like, no, you go at, like, car stops. No, you go ahead. And I'm like, they're setting us up. There's no way. Everybody hears that nice. There's no way. And I got, I've gotten used to it and stuff. But I also feel like there's been this, the spiritual side of it where, like, because this is a traditional conservative Christian area, the, I feel like it's prime territory for evil as well. to flourish. It's like the front lines, you know, the battlegrounds. And like we had, not too long ago, there was a pagan festival at a park near our church. And that happened on

the Saturday. We came to our church on Sunday. And there's these ashes spread across the doorways at our church and stuff. And I was like, oh, well, you know, but you know what we did, though? Like, I didn't do it. I would have if my pastor would have invited me, but I think I'd have been busy. I think the Saturday before they walked through the park knowing the pagan festival was going to happen. And they were praying over the park. stuff. And I think that that, that, that, maybe somebody saw it, but maybe there was a spiritual component to that, too, you know. Well, you're, look, first of all, I'm going to go, like, my first response is, what are you doing? Or if you're a pagan and you believe and this is that,

so why are you spreading ashes on a church? What are you trying to, what, what response are you trying to solicit? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because that's not nice. That's, that's, now we're going towards evil stuff, you know. I'm not over here beating you across the face with the Holy Bible, you know, calm down. But yeah, we were kind of talking before the show started. And me personally, like I'll tell people, if you're agnostic or an atheist, right, I'll look at somebody and I'll say, look, it's not bad. It's not a bad life being a Christ follower. Yeah.

That's my opinion. I said, we can go through our lives, believing exactly what we believe. I said, but when we both die, let's say we both die at the same time. I said, if you're right and I'm wrong, there's no harm, no foul. Yeah. I go, but if I'm right and you're wrong, it's too late. Uh-oh. You know?

So I kind of go with that, but I will say, I have never felt closer to hell than when I'm on the front line fighting for heaven. Does that make sense? In other words, you're a lineman. If you're looking at football terminology, you're a lineman. You're down in the trenches and you're on the front line. So if you're on the worship team, you're probably going to be a line. going to get attacked. If you got a book that comes out and now you're in New York Times and

international bestseller in about three to four months and you talk about your faith through the whole book, there's probably attacks coming. It may not be to me personally. It may be to my wife. It may be to my daughters. But as believers, we know that. But what I'll say, as a believer, at the end of the day, the devil has no power. Nothing. That's another thing about devil worship. I'm like, no matter what you do, it's not going to beat God. It's unbeatable. Yeah. He's unbeatable.

Yeah. She, whatever, you know. Yeah. And that's where I always find some solace. That's where I find, um, he helps keep me grounded. My, the small groups or life groups, what you want to call them? The Christians, the people I've surrounded myself with or the groups that I've been in, there's been times where I've been really struggling.

Um, and maybe I can't tell them everything about the case I'm doing. Yeah. but I can tell them enough. And that's that moment where they put you in a chair in the middle of the room and they lay their hands on you and say a prayer every. And I'm telling you, when they did that, the first time I ever happened to me, man, when they took their hands off of me, I was like, I can run through that wall right now. I mean, I felt, I was like, let's go. Yeah. Let's go.

I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm focused. Let's go. But you got to have that, in my opinion. Yeah. Did you ever find it? Because, I mean, you said you about calling your pastor.

where's the line when you're undercover working a case, where's the line between real life and not real life? I mean, are you allowed to have communication with, like, your pastor and stuff? I'd be nervous to blow my cover. Yeah,

I see what you're saying. I would not call my pastor from my undercover phone. Right. Okay. You know, I would wait until I got my FBI phone back or, I mean, if I needed to,

I would do what I did with my wife. I would buy a burner phone that comes back to nothing. Maybe I'd throw that to my pastor and say, hey, I'm going to be under. If I need something, if you don't mind, I'd like to call it. You could do that. You can do that. It's not the best operational security. I'm sure somebody at FBI headquarters wouldn't have a hissy fit, but it is what it is.

Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't call from an undercover phone, though. Was it hard at times? Because you mentioned about being in the one guy's place and bouncing his kid on your me. Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, at some point, it's got to feel like this is my life, you know? Like, if you're acting, I mean. I mean, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, I don't know. Like, I just, was there ever a point where, I don't know, like, I hate to ask this question like this, but like, was it hard to do your job because it's like the human society is like,

man, I just, I'd rather not. Sometimes. Like, were you tempted to overlook things, you know? Not overlooked, but maybe throw them a bone and say, why are you doing this deal? And then when they're like, what do you mean? You're like, bro, you told me that you got out of the game because you got four daughters and you didn't want to go to prison. So what I'm telling you is, is don't do this for me. You said you didn't want it this life. You don't have to do it.

Just saying. Yeah. And they're like, nah, I'm in. You're like, well, I tried. But in that particular case, yeah, that guy I liked. Yeah. I still like. Yeah.

Love that dude, actually. Does you know who you are now? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, goodness gracious. Yeah. You know?

I went from like, I opened up an Instagram account. I think I went after Joe Rugg, and I think I went from like, I don't know, a hundred followers. And now I'm like over 10,000, which ain't a whole lot, but that's a lot to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then some of the people I've, some of my putting Jill started trolling me. And I just eventually blocked them because they were just saying stupid stuff.

But it's funny. I still laughed about it. I was like reading it going, I can totally see this guy high type and this laughing right now. Yeah. But, yeah. But I've always,

I've tried to treat people with respect unless it's time not to, you know. But on those undercover, sometimes, yeah, sometimes you do bond. But again, I'm still in work mode. Like, you know,

that I bond with some of the people in the white supremacy? Yeah, not over white supremacy. But I'm like, okay, well, This is something. I like to eat. You like to eat?

Okay, there's one thing. Right? We kind of go that route. But I have no problem. I mean, once it's done, you know? I mean, if we got evidence of you committing a crime, you were predicated, I didn't come in there and drag it across your nose and make you do it. You are already doing it.

And you're the one that brought it up in the first place. Then, no, I mean, I'm doing my job, you know? And a lot of times, because people always ask, man, are you scared to come out and do this other? I said, man, I was a cop first. I'm like, if you get threatened at Greenville County Sheriff's Office, do you think Greenville County is going to move you to another county? No. Even if they had the money in the budget, they wouldn't do that.

What you do is you go grab a couple of cops and you go knock on this person's door and say, hey, I got information that you've been saying you're going to do something to me, you know what my house is, you know what my girlfriend drives, what she looks like, what her daughter looks like, my dog. So what's up? Best defense is a good offense. Yeah. But a lot of people that, especially on the undercoverers that I put in jail, it's kind of like the old cartoon. It's just, that's part of the business. You're trying, you're doing illegal stuff.

You're trying not to get caught. I'm a law enforcement officer. I'm trying to catch you. I caught you. We caught you. I went this round. Yeah. And that's, okay, now let's, here's where we're at.

You're under arrest and this is what we got against you. So you can start trying to help yourself right now if you want to. And that's the way it kind of goes, but a lot, I've said this on plenty of interviews, but there's some of the people, they still call me. All they got is my undercover number. I left the phone on, you know, at least for a month, just to see if somebody's going to threaten me or something. But it'd be like, hey, is your boy, Mike?

I know you's just doing your job, man, I love you. I'd be like, I love you, too. I'm like, you know, I mean, other than the whole cocaine and all that stuff, you know, I mean, all the illegal stuff, but yeah, you know. Wow. When you were nice, you were nice. That's like totally grounded, criminal. They're just like, well, I knew I was trying to push the law and, you know, I lost that round.

And that's what I say to a lot of them as a case agent, as a law enforcement officer for most of my career, I don't know when I started doing it, but once I started, I never stopped. Man, I'd sit across the table from somebody and I'm like, I'm not saying I disagree with what you did. I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. What I'm saying is, is you're an adult, you chose to break the law. Yeah. And you got caught. Here we are.

I have no reason to BS you. So let's just start talking because it's what it's going to look like, you know, and that's where I'd kind of come from. Yeah. So the guys who get arrested, and I'm sure some of them, plenty of them probably have gotten out and stuff, has there ever been the attempt to, like, build a relationship with you at all again? After?

Yeah. Really? Yeah. That's got to be kind of rewarding. Very. Yeah. Very. Sorry.

So me and some of my friends. close friends in law enforcement. There's very few things that bring us more joy than somebody flipping themselves around and correcting their path. Now, I got to be careful how I say it, because I don't mean that I know the right way and you don't. I'm just saying they got arrested. Maybe they were in the white supremacy, and they got arrested.

And luckily, they didn't do something super bad. What they did was very bad, but not like... You're going to land 10 years or whatever in jail. They realize the error of their ways. They are trying to fix themselves. They are cutting a plea agreement. And I actually met the person's parent. And they were like, I'm really concerned because I know what I did was wrong.

And I'm back in college. I'm trying to do this. I'm trying to do this. But I'm afraid when I get out, when I apply for a job, I'm going to have this felony on my record. And nobody's going to hire me. And I said, well, I'll tell you this. And I said, and you got my job. I'm all word.

As long as you're doing the right thing, I'll help you however I can. Your past doesn't define who you are. You made a mistake. Yeah. Can you correct it? Cool. Can you learn from it and not do it again? Cool.

So who better to be a job application character reference? Yeah. Than the person who helped give you the felon. Yeah. The rest of the officer, yeah. And I ended up, some of them, I even ended up doing a character witness letter for their sentencing, even though I was retired. But I let the United States Attorney's Office.

know. I didn't like blindside anybody. I go, hey, I just want you to know. Talk to this guy. He says he's on the up and up. He's trying to do this. I'm going to, I'm planning on doing a letter, but I wanted to let you know. And they were like, oh, man, thanks for letting us know. I said, no, I'm going to send you the letter first so you can read it and make sure you're not blindsided, you know, and then let's talk. If you disagree with something, let me know, and we'll hash it out and everything is fine. So that's cool. Yeah. So there's got to be cases and maybe several. Like, I mean, you kind of talked about a little bit going in North Georgia woods.

I mean, that was a situation where you're like, man, I don't feel good about this. And I know you referenced, and I definitely want to talk about this experience that you had, but I didn't know if there's others as well, that you feel like, man, I'm not going to get out of this one. Like, this is, I'm going to get caught. Because like, when you were talking to, you were talking about the strip shirt search situation. And I was like, ah, like, I was sweating hearing you talk about. that. I mean, like, how does that whole thing unfold that situation? Was it just part of the order of things, or were they suspecting you as an actual undercover agent? They came down from the

top. The story you're referencing is, or the story, I mean, story that happened. The thing that happened, which is probably the closest. I mean, I've, I've had numerous situations where like somebody's brother walks in and goes, my brother says you're a cop. And I'm going, I'm looking at the brother and I'm going, and your brother's right. In my head, I'm going, I locked up your brother when I was a uniform patrol guy. Hopefully I look a little bit different right now than I did, clean, shaved with a high and tight in a uniform. But, you know, you got to work you. And they got a rifle pointed at you, by the way.

I mean, they're not like holding it like this, but the rifle's right there. And they're like, my brother says you're a cop. And you're like, oh, man. There's been stuff like that. Okay, in that moment, though, do you think that they actually have the preparedness to actually pull that trigger? I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know. I don't know. But I know his brother was right because I looked at him and I don't forget faces. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll lock that guy up. Whoa. You know? But that's one of the inherent dangers of working street level narcotics and stuff like that, trying to do controlled buys of evidence where you're the undercover in a small town where you work. Yeah.

And you've been a cop. FBI, you can travel all over the place. But still, I'm a memorable person, you know. I was just blessed and covered my whole career because I can't go hardly anywhere without running into somebody I know, even if it's a place I've never been before. And my wife's always like, how in the heck did you work undercover and travel? I was covered, I guess, you know.

Lucky not to get blasted on social media or anything. But that case was the outlaws case. It was a two-year undercover. I'd already done multiple criminal acts with them. and we were gathering all kinds of evidence of criminal activity. And then we decided to up the ante because they had been asking for it from day one. And we did it. We were going to be doing a drug deal.

And they were going to help protect the load. They didn't know it, but we had 40 kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds of real weed, which was a big deal then because we're talking like 2007-ish. And again, I've been with these guys for a year and a half. and done all kinds of stuff. And at that point, my closest relationship that I developed was Scott, which is the guy who had the WWSD,

whose daughter I was bouncing. And then the second closest relationship would have been an enforcer for that chapter of the outlaws and his street name was clothesline. And then it would have been the president, Joe Dogs, and then on down. But a year and a half with them,

doing all kinds of stuff, the night before we're doing the deal, and we laid all that. It took a long time to spread, to lay this out so it's not suspicious and get everything lined up and see if they want to do it, all that kind of stuff. But the night before the deal, Joe Dawks told me to come to a clubhouse, and I went there, and it was a weird interchange, exchange in the beginning. Like, as soon as I got to the door, like, he wouldn't come, he wouldn't come. And he told me to come. So then the door opens, and he's like, peeking his head.

He's like, hey, man, we're not ready yet. And I'm like, well, why don't you tell me to come? So he spends a prospect or a probate, which everyone you want to call it, probate for them. With me, we go grab a couple of drinks, get something to eat, come back. I go into Clubhouse. The music's Blair. They have a mandatory weekly meeting, and they refer to that as church in the biker community,

especially one percenter. So they just had church, so all the outlaws from that chapter are there. I go in, I'm drinking like normal. Everybody's tossing a few back. I'm cracking jokes. They're laughing. But what I can't see is like I'm like turned this way and I'm like telling jokes. And but when I turned my head this way, I wouldn't see it, but their face would go stone cold.

Like that would be laughing when I look at them when I turn my head. So they had already talked about it. They knew what they were doing. And a close line comes over and he says, hey man, he goes, hey, text is what they call me text. He's like, hey, text, you got a minute? And I'm like, yeah. A second close his relationship. I'm like, yeah, man.

So I'm following him, and there's one door I'd never been in in that clubhouse, and that's the door we went in. It's a tight stairwell, goes down to, I say a basement, but it's smaller than a basement. It's like a crawl space. I can't stand up straight. I could probably touch the wall on both sides. Northeastern home kind of split-level kind of thing. Yeah.

So as I'm walking in the door, another outlaw walks in behind me, and we're going down the steps, and I go, I already knew him. I'm like, this isn't good. Now, I'm wired to the hill because it's a year and a half in. It's my job to get the evidence as an undercover. And we go down there and close line tells me there. There's a lot of, he uses a different terminology because there's a lot of stuff going on. It's my job to take care of everybody because he's the enforcer.

He says, I need you to write down your full name, date of birth, social address, everything. He goes, I'm not going to ask you to write your kids names down, but it's not like we couldn't find out. who they are anyway. And he goes, and then I'm going to need you to take all your clothes off because I'm going to check you for a wire. And I'm like, now they've already shown me their pistols.

The one outlaws on the steps, he's got his hands hanging up so I can see his pistol and his waistband. They're not pointing it at me directly, but they're letting me know I'm not free to leave. So, because of the stress of the situation, I'm having an adrenaline dump, and it's just,

it's not a panic attack, but it's adrenaline dump. You know, everything slows down, auditory exclusion. So that means your ears. Everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater. It's like, whoosh,

who's real slow. Everything slows down. You can feel your heart beating. You get time dilation in your eyes. When you look, everything's in screen grabs. Click, click, click, everything's just what's probably 30 seconds feels like five minutes. And that's the normal response.

Whether you're in a shooting, your first car wreck, your second car wreck, there's anything traumatic. That's what kind of happens in an adrenaline dump. So, during all that and the stress the situation, I forget my middle name because of the stress. Now, I'm in work mode.

I'm going, oh, man, what's my mental name? Because you're using different names. Yeah, I've got different aliases, and I'm going, I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott, and I go, Scott Joseph Calloway. And in my head, I'm like, no, not Joseph, that was middle name of another alias. You know, and I'm like, dad, come it.

But I don't realize, I yell, I say something back, like, and what else do you need? My name and what else? I had no idea. I said it. That's a distraction technique. but it allowed me to hear them calling up asking a probate what he needed for that website.

So now I know they're going to run me on the, they're going to do an internet check or whatever. And I remember my middle name. I write it down. And like I said, I'm wired to the hill. I'm not free to leave. Even if for some, out of some miraculous way,

I could have made it pass them with their guns and two dudes in this small crawl space. Once I get upstairs, I've still got, what, eight or ten outlaws? The door's locked. It's barricaded. It has a metal bar across it with welded hooks on it. I mean, you're kind of done.

So I start taking all my clothes off. I take everything on my upper body off. I take my boots off. I drop my pants and underwear down around my ankles. So from my ankles up, completely naked. And he checks me and thoroughly. And we're kind of talking because I'm like trying to get intelligent. That's the way I've been trained.

I'm like, I'm not going to vapor lock because I know that's bad. So I'm just like, hey, man, you know, what? And he's like, well, you know, wouldn't you be suspect if blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, yeah, I would. But I didn't come to you guys. You guys called me over. They recruited you? Yeah, well, yeah, at a bar, but that's how it all happened.

I didn't walk over to say hey to them. They called me over to say hey to them. And then I'm like, y'all've been asking for this. If nobody wants to do nothing, you don't have to do nothing. Now, it doesn't sound anything like I sound right now. If you hear the recording, my throat is tight, my voice is way higher, my diction is terrible. I'm talking through my nose because I'm having a no crap moment.

And I think I'm done, and I'm pulling my pants back up, and then he grabs a piece of clothing. And he says, hey, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some pictures of my old lady, and he laughs. and I'm like, and that's my laugh. And then he says, well,

he starts needing this piece of clothing. He's going through it with his hands. He's doing this all the way up. Now, I know that that piece of clothing has a recording device in it. And I know that it's big enough in circa 2007-ish, if he runs his hands across, he's going to feel it.

And I don't realize I do it. But again, on the recording, you can hear me go, because here I am. I'm just standing there. Boots not on jeans up, no shirt, no nothing. And I'm watching. And I'm just like, what am I going to do?

I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't really have anything, you know? I'm just riding it. See what happens. He looks right at it, at least a camera part, and misses it. And then stops. For me, that's divine intervention. I was just going to say, I literally was just going to say that.

That's divine intervention. Whoa. Because a little bit more than he would have. he would have felt this. So people always ask, man, what would you have said? And I only had two responses. And I remember it like it was yesterday. One of them, because he already gave me a bone on a joke,

you know, I'm a jokester. And it's also a defense mechanism when I'm scared. I'll crack a joke, you know. But if he would have said, what is this? I would have said, I don't know, some pictures of you old lady. That would have been one answer. The only other thing I had was the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent.

and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell's getting ready to break loose. And that would have been a bluff, though, because to my knowledge, every time I'd been in the clubhouse, my cover team couldn't hear me. I don't know, walls, equipment, whatever, neighborhood, who knows. Even in today's technology,

you can walk in one building with 5G and you still can't get a signal. You know, I'm like, I don't. But it would have been a bluff. But what I found out that night is when I, By the way, I didn't sleep at all that night. If I did, it was only like 30 minutes because the adrenaline was just so. And, you know, you think you're getting ready to die.

You know, I look for plastic on the floor. Had I seen that? Because in that environment, in that culture, in that world, if you see plastic on the floor, that means probably they're going to kill you. And that way it's easy cleanup. Just grab the four corners, pull it up. Then you've got to worry about nothing. But I didn't see that, but I saw a rope.

I saw the guns for sure. Um, that night, or early morning, could have been four in the morning when I'm done. I meet the case team, the cover team, and I'm handing in my equipment. And, uh, that's when I find out that the two guys starting the shift who were part of the core case team, uh, two task force officers, um, who were phenomenal, by the way, uh, phenomenal investigators and law enforcement officers. They heard it. Something in that initial interaction between me and the president, it didn't sit right with them. They had pulled close enough. They heard everything, and they radioed back to Boston

and let everybody know that I was being stripped at gunpoint and that I was course wired to the hill. So to my knowledge, the way they explained to me was everybody's now on the way down with blue lights and sirens on from Boston that was still working and was going to be on that shift that night. But they knew the inside of that clubhouse because they've been there on local law enforcement activity. They knew that there was a metal bar across the door

and it was heavily fortified. So their plan was to drive into the wall right beside the door to breach around the door, as opposed to the door, just breach the wall right there. But they listened to me and they knew me well enough, even though you can clearly hear that I'm scared, they were paying attention to find out, hey, is this, should we pull the trigger and go? Or is he going to be okay?

And they were waiting and waiting. And I'm sure if he would have found it and said, what is this, that probably would have been their trigger. They probably would have been slamming into the wall. But we lived to fight another day. And on the spiritual side of things, that night, what I'd done do in that case, I had a one-year-old. Our daughters were like three in one. And my wife, I'd bought her a burner phone.

So I could call her from my undercover phone. And it might be four in the morning. It might be seven in the morning. And I'd be like, hey, babe, it's me. Just letting you know, I'm done. I'm heading back to the hotel room. I'll call you when I wake up this afternoon. Sometimes it was like, okay, babe, love you.

Sometimes we talked for a little bit. That night when I called her, the first thing she said was, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, why? And she says, well, at this certain time tonight, I was driving with our girls in McAllen, Texas, and I just got this overwhelming feeling. And I pulled it over on the side road and started praying for you. And I matched it up. That's when I was in the basement getting stripped.

So she felt my fear. I sent it. man, that's like the Holy Spirit telling her now it's time. Yeah. You got to pray. Yeah, legit. That's wild. That's wild.

Do you, I mean, what's their plan on that end of things? I mean, they're strips searching you. Say they find a wire. Like, I mean, are they really prepared to kill a federal agent? Depends on who you talk to. But again, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It could be.

I mean, in the mafia world, yeah, they'll kill you. It doesn't matter. a lot of biker worlds they'll kill you. Some people might wear it as a badge of honor. Show up in prison saying, I killed a federal agent. Yeah. I could have just taken a beat down. They could have said just leave.

That's true. I mean, you don't know what kind of options they have in their own head. Like, they might have in their head, this is my only option. Yeah. You know, like the next step is I'm going to jail, so I'm going to kill a guy on the way there. Yeah. Wow. And I'm a one-percenter and then, you know, a lot of them will tell you straight up.

I'm a one-percenter. I was born to be a one-percenter. I know I'm either going to die young or in prison. From what I understand, one percenters is one percent of all biker gangs are the ones that you have to be worried about, right? Is that where it got from? Yeah, it came out of during the Vietnam War era. A lot of soldiers were coming back and there was no transition, no decompression, none of that stuff. And they just kicked them out on the street.

And they were getting rowdy and they started creating biker clubs. So the president of the American Motorcycle Association comes out, does the huge media blitz and says something to the effect of this. 99% of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens. Only 1% are bad. And they took that as a badge of honor when that's, we're 1-percenters. Wow. So do I sit here and say that all 1-percenters are dirty and bad and evil?

No. But it kind of goes with the territory for you at least not abide by the law because you're a 1-percenter. I don't see a lot of law-abiding citizens joining 1-Penter groups. Yeah. I mean, there's a guy that sat in that chair that was part of a 1% gang. Not anymore, but he, he, he, he didn't divulge what group he, or what gang he was in on the show. He, he wouldn't do that. But it was, they made the news for wars with other gangs.

And he, he actually came out of the military and got caught up in it. Yeah. And spent time in jail. He's got a lot of draws. You got the brotherhood. We like the ride. We like the be rowdy, us against the world. He started his own group too.

I say group, I guess a gang. Just like petty theft, though. And that's where he got caught. And he got put in jail and found Christ in jail. And the rest of his history now, he has a ministry where he's trying to reach hardened criminals as well. Cool. But, I mean, I imagine it's not that story for everybody. I imagine not everybody who gets caught finds the light, you know, and it's just like...

No, and not everybody who does find the light wants out gets out. You got to be out on a bad. You can be out on a bad, and then there'll be like a K-O-S, kill on-site or B-O-B-B-Eat-on-Sight. A lot of that doesn't happen, but, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's hard to get out of a gang. Really? Club. So what would be the... I guess proper order of getting out, or is it not really a pathway to get up?

Probably have to be approved from an up or up. Yeah. Just like me being stripped in the basement, that was called for by the top. Okay. That's what we found out. It was the, I mean, the way it was explained to me from Closeline was it came from the top, which to me says Milwaukee Jack was the national president at that point in time in the outlaws history. And they had gotten a call that I guess we were going to be doing a drug deal.

and it was basically asked, has this guy really been checked? Me and me. And they're like, man, we've done like all kinds of jobs with him. We're not in bracelets, which means handcuffs. And he said, I don't care. Check him. So, almost got me. That's crazy because it's like you've done stuff for like a year,

year and a half, and now they're finally getting around to doing a background check. A little late, but still, almost got me, you know. Yeah, but it's because, again, in that kind of culture, at least what I found was, I may befriend everybody at this Tonton chapter. I may befriend everybody at the Brockton chapter, but let's head down to, I don't know, of St. Patty's Day ride or something. We go in,

and now I've got, every time I met new 1%ers or other, same thing every time. Look at my accent. What am I doing in Massachusetts? Right. You know, and it's like,

who the emphasis guy? Where did he come from? Why is he here? And I have to know my story because I got to recite it. I got to say it again. All right. And I started making jokes about it. I'm like, look, I need to just record this so I can just, next time somebody asks me,

I'm just going to hit play. I'm like, how many times you'll be explaining this? I'm a site survey specialist. I was traveling. I was working. I was at a bar. They were at a bar. They called me over.

I ride. They ride. We hit it off. Turns out I don't just do site survey stuff either. I do criminal stuff. And we've done a lot of it together, you know? Yeah. That kind of thing.

Man, and you were a rider before. Yes. Like, you're just, yeah. Man, that's crazy stuff. Locally, I got to ask you about this. I heard about this when I moved down. And I don't know if you ever heard of this area, but I was told by locals to not go to Nibo Mountain.

Do you know anything about Nibo Mountain? Where's Nibo? What county is? I have no. It's like here in Blunt County. Apparently, like, I was told that. I haven't heard of Nibo. I've heard of, I mean, I know we're top of the world.

It's not up there, is it? I don't think so. Apparently, this is a community where it's like they just, they're left to police themselves and nobody really goes up there. Like, I was told by several locals that don't go to new. I hope I don't stumble across it, you know? I'll find out. I'm teaching at Blount County's, I'm teaching for their academy this Friday.

Are you really? Oh, yeah, you'll find out of it. Yeah, they called me, they, whoever used to do their gangs and criminal enterprise stuff retired and they called me up. I'm like, yeah, man, I'll come over. That's cool. I'll find out. I'll be like, okay, first homework assignment.

What does this Nebo Mountain thing? Because that's the thing I want to know. Because I need to know. Is it like literally an actual thing? Or is it just like one of those things where the locals talk and it's really not really that big of a deal? But I've heard it from several. And the one of the stories I was told, I don't remember by who was that police don't go up there unless there's a drug bust. And one time a cop went up there and he got out of his car.

By the time I came back to his car, there was trees cut down around the car. And I was just like, that's kind of wild. Me up that towards that. So here's what I'll say from a law enforcement standpoint. As I said earlier, my first beat area as a Greenville County deputy was beat area one. It was very rural, like one cop for many, many miles. It goes all the way up to the North Carolina state line in the mountains. It's not that we let them police their own.

It's just that they kind of did. If you got called up there, it was already handled by the time we got there. Like you show up and they're like, there's a person laying there dead. and this person's over here with a gun and you go, all right. Billy did it. Would you like me? If anybody want to explain to me what happened? Well, here's what happened.

And that, nab-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-knit. Shout him. And I go, all right, cool. Might have I take that gun from you, you know, but I mean, we're good, you know? So I don't know if it's something like that, but I wouldn't know about policing their own. But it might be one of those places, too, where you don't go by yourself. You know, you get, you wait for backup. Who knows?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that's probably the case if it's, if it's, an actual thing because I mean I need to know this everything I even even my neighbors from California when I first moved here told me about it like don't go to me about I was like what the kneebo kneebo kneebo mountain and uh and then I found nebo a nebo mountain in the Bible too I was like oh that's interesting you know but uh yeah I'm assuming it's N-E-B-O but yeah I'll find out I've heard I've heard it from people who are out of town to people who grew up around here Nebo Mountain uh but uh and I'm not trying to put Nebo Mountain on blast right now on the show just saying, I'm not trying to do it.

Could be a great place. We're going to get to the bottom of it. Could be my people. We might as I'm going to show up and be like, hey. That's my kind of place. Yeah. We'll keep telling everybody to be scared of this place. This is awesome.

Yeah. We got it all to ourselves. It's a great view up there. Yeah, it sounds like it's way up there, though. Yeah. But so winding things down here and stuff, where can people get the book? And what are the plans for future books? You got to be, you have to have something else and it works, right?

So, yeah. Um, code name pale horse. I never was, man, I argued about that subtitle how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis because it makes it sound like it's all about white supremacy. Right. I'm like, bro, there's four chapters on the bikers. I mean, it's murder for hires, public corruption, you name it, it's in there. But you can get it anywhere. The Amazon, uh, I did the audio book.

That was, I think that's what pushed us over the top for New York Times bestseller. So, Simon & Schuster, any bookstore, and if you use Union Avenue books, if you go on Union Avenue books in Knoxville, Tennessee's website, you can order it and request a signature. And then I can go down there and sign them. But I will say if you go on Amazon, be careful because there's a lot of scams on there. We called and called it just so many from foreign countries and stuff. It'll be like, mine's at the top. That's my ugly, that's my mug, that whole caveman forehead thing. That'll be me.

That'll be the right one. Below it, it'll be like Agent Pell Horse Workbook. And they've taken AI and made me look older. Really? It'll be like a cartoon figure or something. And you're like, what? Now, I even found one on YouTube where somebody had taken the entire book and put like an AI voice reading the entire book.

I mean, I did it. I did the audio book. Now, that one got shut down. quick. Yeah. But yeah. So it's anywhere, everywhere. The, the audiobook again is me.

I have another book in me easy. That could be just as shock and all. Sorry. Yeah, you're fine. That could be shock and all. But that's my case agent stuff. Me as a case agent, the cases I was able to work, run, develop, and all that stuff. But I'm being told by my literary agent.

My agent, Simon and Schuster, if you already got a bestseller, New York Times international bestseller, autobiography, you don't do another autobiography. They're saying, if you want to do something, do something like a Jack car kind of thing, go fictional series. Yeah, that's what they're telling me. Right now. Interesting. And they sponsor Jack. My agent closed Jack's deal, so I'm hoping for good things. Yeah.

But yeah, because the Terminal List 2 season comes out like this week, I think. Wow. And, you know, it was pretty surreal to walk into Simon & Schuster in New York City. And then you walk in and it's all Jack Carr's books and then the rest of the wall is my books. And I was like, my book, you know. But pretty good. We're in some negotiations on some stuff. I'm hoping for a TV show or a movie.

But as long as it's in the Lord's will. It's not. It's cool. I'll go back. I'll do something else. That's cool. I didn't want to do the book, but it's been a great. experience. It pulled it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the stuff is easy because I teach it

anyway. I mean, I've taught, like the whole outlaw thing. I got like a three-hour block. I've talked since 2008. I've taught it all over the country and sometimes the world. When I got into the white supremacy, all that domestic terrorism stuff, I built another block of instruction out. And I've been doing that one a lot. And then it might be malicious stuff that's, you know, anti-government stuff. They're all teaching blocks because I was an instructor and a speaker and all that stuff. So I still do it. So those were kind of easy to dive into to recall the facts, but to get into the hard times. Sometimes it's not easy. I mean, I wanted to be transparent, and I've heard a lot of feedback as everybody's saying,

I was very vulnerable in this book. And I've never heard that, but that's, that's, all I know is that's the only way I know how to be. I also know for me it's the best way to teach. Yeah. Because I can, we could sit in a conference and 10 case teams can get up there and tell us all the success stories about everything went great and everybody went to jail and this is what the most people don't even remember that. But if you talk about where you messed up or you were scared or something you've learned to try to pass that on and you can add some realness to it, for me, that's where

it's at. So it's kind of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Well, I agree. I think the stories are a great way for people to learn, you know, from other people's mistakes to what to expect. Pay it forward, man. What you say? Pay it forward. Exactly. Keep somebody else from making the same mistake. So, all right. I said I was going to wind it down, but you sparked my imagination again.

Go. So murder for hire. Yeah. Is that something that's prevalent? I got a lot of them. No, I did a lot of them. Really? Now, the TV where it's $100,000 to kill this person.

I never had nothing like that. That's like white collar. Yeah, well, yeah. And I'm like, you know, you can pay five grand and get somebody else to do it. I'll do it. I'll do it for five grand, you know. But yeah, I mean, I ran into, I did several of them. Really?

One of the most satisfying cases I did was probably the quickest. It was just like two meets. There was a guy that had gotten locked up for molesting a kid when the kid was 11. And once he got locked up for it and was awaiting trial, he solicited a gang member in prison to, to kill this kid or find somebody to kill this kid. And as most people in prison are trying to do, they're trying to get their sentence shortened and they're trying to get credit for doing good things.

That person called their attorney and we lined it up and that guy hired me to kill the kid. Actually, he wanted me to kill the rest of the family, but he molested. The kid, he molested in the rest of that kid's family. And that was a very satisfying case because what I found out from the local solicitors office in San Antonio, Texas, was that that guy had walked on like three or more cases before

because they're so hard to prove. It's after the fact that's an adult versus a young kid, probably from a broken home. They're not easy, always easy slam dunk cases. But after he found out, I was a undercover fed undercover. He played guilty to molesting the kid and hiring me to kill him. So, yeah. So the, the, the. with the murder for hire and that aspect of the pedophile case,

are there situations where we're talking about murder for hire within organizations? I know you did some work with the cartel or on the cartel. Yeah. Like is that something that kind of gets infiltrated into these organizations? It's like hiring out for hire. No, I mean, for the cartel, they handle their own. They handle it. Yeah, the cartel, but at least when I was down there, Ozil Cardanus, I mean, we took him off before I left, but he was the head of the Gulf cartel.

And at that time, the Cetas, Z-E-T-A-S, Los Zetas, were the enforcement arm. They were the paramilitary trained enforcement arms. So they did all the kidnappings, all the torturing, all the collecting the quotas, because it doesn't matter whether you're moving dope or people through, the Rio Grande Valley, you still got to pay the cartel, your quota, to smuggle through their territory. Yeah, they would handle their own usually. I mean, they might get somebody like a Sicario or something. They might get something like that, but it's probably cartel-related. The ones I did were like wife's cheating on husband.

Some more private. Yeah, wife cheating on husband. Her lover hires me to kill husband for the insurance policy. They're going to pay me like 15 grand out of it. once they get the insurance policy, but of course I say, you don't expect me to go kill someone based on your word, right? Yeah. I need something up front because I'd be an idiot.

And then we do things like that, and then we take them off. But there's also ones where I call the role, like I'm a closer, like somebody brings me in as some longtime biker or white supremacists or something, and I'm supplying you with the bomb. You want to blow this family up. I'm supplying you with the gun. to shoot up this synagogue, stuff like that, yeah. And then one of the last murder for hires I did was, I mean, it was kind of a,

it was a little bit bigger than a murder for hire, but essentially they were bringing us into, they were hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people and take all the money and dope. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, you know, it happens.

I know it's very, this seems very Hollywood and TV, but even on the dark web. There's a, is it called Kill List? I didn't interview with them. And oddly enough, they're overseas, but they dive into these dark webs where people go on there to hire people to kill people. And they uncover stuff. And one of them actually became an FBI case. I didn't, I was like, I'll probably know who worked it. I didn't know, because they were interviewing me.

And I was like, oh, I didn't know about this local case. And it was legit. Like a guy, ex-boyfriend went on there, dark web trying to hire somebody to kill his ex. told him where a specific tattoo was. I'm going to need a picture of her dead in that tattoo before I send money kind of thing. Yeah, it happens. Jeez, man. And maybe it's crazy here in the States, but once you get outside the States, it can get a little wild.

Yeah, I've heard that. I mean, have you ever heard Sean Ryan's story before he became a podcast or what his life was like? Uh-uh. Are you familiar, Sean Ryan? Oh, yeah. Okay. He was in the military. I mean, his life, not mine.

I don't know by heart, but, like, he was in the military and really had a hard time with adjusting. And he might have been some South American country running, like, like, I guess he was, like, the middleman between different drug groups and stuff. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it got hot. And, I mean, he had, he had to, like, leave real quick on certain occasions. But, like, you hear that stuff and you're just like, man, that's, that's like, that has to be one, one off case that that can't be the rule. And you're saying, no, it happens a lot. Yeah, it happens.

Some people just don't know. And I've done a lot of interviews since the Rolling Stones article. And some people, you know, it's not a big deal to me. I mean, I'm not trying to put anybody down. But a lot of people live in a bubble. Yeah. I have no idea how evil the world can really be. I think we just, we see stuff on TV to pick this a certain way and we're just conditioned

to believe that, oh, well, that's fake then. That's not real. No, that's exaggerated or something like that. There's some sick stuff out there. The way I always say it is I'm like, look, you just need to understand that there's evil people on this planet. They want to do evil things to good people. And it's been that way pretty much since the beginning of the time. Yeah.

And if you can't deal with that, that's cool. Go back to your house, you know, and lock your door. You know, don't live in fear. I'm not trying to scare anybody to walk around on eggshells and stuff, but you need to be aware. And sometimes that's a good enough offense right there. And that's your best defense, right? Yeah. You just see the person eyeballing you.

like, can I help you with something? You know, and they're like, oh, no, no, now you're throwing

their game off. You know what I mean? Because that's called their M. That's their whole M. O. They want to sneak up to them skit. You know, whatever.

It doesn't work in every situation, but there's just, that's why I took the oath I took. And, you know, the Lord bless me with a certain skill set. I've always, always had kind of like a servant's heart mentality,

um, bully of bullies, a shepherd. Yeah. A shepherd mentality. And it just grew as I got older. You know, it was always there. Like I see, you look back and you go, oh, oh, I can see that.

Now, was I a bully sometimes? Yeah. Have I done things that I'm not proud of yet? But, I mean, as the whole, if you look at everything, I'm like, oh, yeah, there's that bully, a bully kind of shepherd servant's heart kind of thing. Yeah. I see that, man. I see that.

I think this was a wild, wild experience talking to you because, I mean, it's just like, I told you beforehand we were talking in. The Sons of Anarchy, that TV show. And I remember watching that show and thinking, this can't be how real it is, you know? Some of it is, yeah. But the way you described the scene of you being stripped and stuff, I was like, that sounds straight out.

No, and you've got, you've got the girls, you've got like sheep, which are usually like girls hooked on drugs, but the guys in the club can do whatever they want to with them, unless they advance and become somebody's old lady, and now they're the property of techs. you know or whoever um there's a lot of that stuff but it really depends on the chapter is what i've found yeah there's some like you some of your startup biker clubs that want to live that 1970s and 80s biker life they'll do all that crazy stuff um or what if it's somebody young

trying to make a name for themselves those are the ones i'm looking for too you know but yeah you know other than being stripped in the basement that night not a good night but uh as far as going out riding with a bunch of Neanderthals and... Sounds fun. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. So it's like, for me, it was like being back in college ball. I'm like, it's a bunch of dudes with testosterone and we're idiots.

I'm going to have nothing else to do, you know? That works. Yeah. Let's wrestle. Oh, what do you like? The next thing, you know, tables are getting smashed. I don't break it up. I'm a cool, you know?

Wow. Well, I appreciate you coming in and talking with me, man. It's a pleasure, man. Good to be here. Absolutely. Local guy. Yeah, I know, right? He's despired to these hours,

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