The Confessionals - RELOADED | 317: Satanic Panic and MK Ultra

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

In Episode 317: Satanic Panic and MK Ultra, we have the pleasure of speaking with Matt, a member of the Quinney family. The Quinney family went through hell when their father, Melvin Quinney, was wrongfully accused and convicted of being a satanic cult leader who abused children. Matt shares with us how the events unfolded, how he and his siblings found out the truth about their father, and what they are doing now to exonerate Melvin. During our conversation, Matt also discusses his mother's mental illness, which played a part in his father being locked away for many years. As he reveals more details about his mother, the topic of MK Ultra surfaces and will leave you wondering if the Quinneys' unfortunate situation stems from an even darker origin. Matt's conversation extends over a two parts, first as a public episode (Episode 317), and also as an Overtime episode.Please pray for Tony's wife, Lindsay, as she battles breast cancer. Your prayers make a difference!If you’re able, consider helping the Merkel family with medical expenses by donating to Lindsay’s GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/b8f76890Become a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZTony's Recommended Reads: slingshotlibrary.comGet your ticket for the NEW documentary premiering July 27, 2025 @ 8PM EST: "The Meadow Project"Ticket link HERE: moment.co/themeadowprojectMy New YouTube ChannelMerkel IRL: @merkelIRLMy First Sermon: Unseen BattlesSasquatch and The Missing Man: merkelfilms.comMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkelProduced by: @jack_theproducer

Merkel Media I guess it's time to go back in time Are you telling me you built a time machine kind of a Dolorean Time is but a stubborn illusion

I have a lot of memories of the past people are time traveling within themselves Time travel Is possible This was all circulating around the base that a giant had been killed

but no one was supposed to talk about it. Each up underneath the door, curl up to grab it, and then disappear. When he came over to me, dude, he slithered over to me. And this giant comes out of the cave and they're all frozen. And he starts running and firing at this giant.

With a giant moves, he's got a spear in one hand, and he's running really fast. And spears, Dan, holds him up like this. Somebody else shoot him in the face, shoot him in the face. They basically decapitated. I feel something pulling at my leg. And I look over and there are two small gray entities pulling it.

And they're literally, I'm getting pulled off the bed. I reached my hand into this bush and I touch air. Couldn't breathe and I couldn't move because I know I'm seeing a monster. Okay, I reload. Yep. Welcome to the show. Everybody are listening to The Confessionals. I am your host, Tony Merkel.

Thank you for being here. If you've had an encounter or a story you like to share with me on the show, go ahead and shoot me an email. Or go to the website, the confessionalspodcast.com, hit the contact section, and you can reach me that way as well. Either way works for me, just get a hold of me. And if you want more shows every week on Thursdays, we release a bonus show to members only on the website. So if you want to hear more of the show on a weekly basis, go to the confessionalspodcast.com. hit the join button and become a member today. Now, today we have Matt coming on the show, and Matt contacted me, and he and his family

have a very unique situation where they were victims of the whole satanic panic era going on back in the late 80s, early 90s, where his dad was actually convicted of being a satanic cult leader put in jail wrongfully accused. And one thing that really frustrated me after I did this interview is that I realized that I forgot to talk about his brother John and how John played a role in getting his dad convicted underneath the facade of manipulation by those in control. What happened is John actually testified against his dad, which was a big piece of evidence towards putting his dad in jail. And now John is actually working with his family to exonerate his dad. This was a very

interesting conversation I had with Matt. We talk about how his mom had a role in. He said, it and how his mom might have been abused and maybe possibly involved in the MK Ultra side of things. We get into it on this interview and also on the overtime segment of this show. This is a two-part show. The overtime segment, we get into a deeper conversation about the MK Ultra stuff, plus Matt and his family's paranormal experiences. I really hope you guys enjoy this conversation and the overtime segment there for members.

Let's get to Matt right now. I turned on to the road, which led it to my customer's house, and I was maybe a quarter mile from my last turn, I believe. And I got a phone call, and it was one of the supply companies. It might have been like a Home Depot, just confirming like an order. So it was kind of an inconsequential, just like seven or eight second literal phone calls. Like, okay, cool, I'll be there, so-and-so. maybe a 10-15 second phone call, but I had my GPS on because going all between the places, it definitely helped to have a guiding map handy, even though pretty much knew the area,

but some parts were kind of new to me. And I looked at my phone, which was on my little dash holder for it, and I clicked the red button to end the call. And as soon as I looked up, the whole scenery, and you got to think for me to look down at my phone pushing up, I mean, I've still got the road in my peripheral, but somewhere in my crossing and looking up, the whole view around me was completely different,

was completely changed. And I was very disoriented, like, you know, this doesn't seem right. how did I get on this wrong road? And I drive maybe a quarter mile. I'm like, okay, I would have seen the customer's house. And I pull over because my maps was frozen up. And my maps was frozen on the spot.

And I looked back at it. And I was able to zoom in. And it showed me where I thought I was at right before my customer's turn. but I knew that this area was not right, but the maps was frozen. I had to restart my phone, turn the phone back on. It updated. And also, in that time, there was no passive time. You know, it's like a few second phone call, and I literally looked down for two seconds

and it was in a completely different area. And just to confirm, when my phone came back on, I looked back at the phone call in the time that it took place. And at this point, you know, I'd already drove, drove some, pulled over, gone through, staring at my map deal, and then it being frozen, turning my phone back off, turning it back on. So it'd been like five or six minutes since that phone call. My map's updated, and it showed me like nine miles away from that location. But it was on a completely different road.

too. All right. Today we got Matt on the show. Matt, how are you, sir? I'm doing pretty good, Tony. I appreciate you letting me come on. Absolutely, man. So, Matt, you contacted the show, and I'm really glad that you did, because you have a very unique family history. And it's really cool for me as a podcaster to have the opportunity to talk to somebody like you, because some of the things that we talk about on the show, you have actually lived through in a very public light. Now, I know you're the youngest of four kids, and when all this happened, you were just literally a baby. But growing up in the family, you heard about it. You saw the effects that it took on your other siblings and obviously your parents. And so, Matt, I'm just going to let the audience know right here that the family's

original last name was Quinney. And since then has been changed. And that's, well, you're going to find out why. But Matt's dad was accused of being a satanic cult leader back in the late 80s and was actually arrested and jailed for it wrongfully. And since then, more information's come out and new witnesses, if you want to call it that, came forward to redact their statements. And it's a very interesting path that your family has been on since the late 80s. And it continues through this day. So Matt, I want to hand it over to you. and let you kind of tell this story as to how this all started and where it took you and your family. Okay. Well, I'm going to kind of jump around the timeline a little bit if that's okay.

It might make a little bit more sense of it because really a lot of my family history and what I thought I knew of it versus what really happened has kind of evolved and changed over the years as you know he'd find out and the other sides of the story with the puzzle pieces together if it makes sense so I would say maybe 12, 13 years old

I remember asking my older siblings a little bit more about my dad and this was just a few years after my mom had passed so at this point I see my mom died and I was nine so just a few years before that that. So I was living away from my older siblings at this time with a foster family that had previously kept them like in the early 90s when we were first going through all the stuff

with my dad and the trial. And of course, you know, that part I don't really remember, but I've learned a lot about since. So, you know, I started hearing stories and of them being a satanic a cult leader because at that point we still all believed that and started kind of putting the pieces together to some of the paranormal or maybe demonic experiences we had growing up and thought that it all stemmed from the fact that my dad was this a cult leader and even had some experiences after that, which I may tap into later when we have more time to talk about the paranormal stuff, that kind of stemmed out of that knowledge and finding and kind of finding out all the dark secrets of our past and thinking that there was some dark destiny for us or that that was what was, you know,

my mom was trying to protect us from or so she thought, you know. And anyway, so, you know, I get through high school and everything and a young adult life. I was married and just been on Facebook only for maybe a couple of years at this point. And I started getting curious. So I searched for my dad's name. And I found what I thought. thought was him and I kind of looked over and I was like okay that resemblance is uncanny so I figured okay that's got to be him so I sent him a message kind of hesitantly I guess he would say

just because I was still in the thought process at the age of I think I was 22 so this would have been maybe nine years ago maybe eight years ago and I sent him a message because now it's just kind of curious. And when I asked him some questions about the past and some of that stuff, he sent me a really long message back. I still can't remember what I was said. But, you know, what he sent me back just gave me the impression. This man didn't sound like anything like what I expected.

And I finally fest to my brother and sister that I had reached out to him man had received the letter and then kind of shared that and they started kind of asking themselves questions too and started kind of doubting maybe some of the stuff they believed about the occult stories and some of the abuses that they had supposedly undergone um like ritual type abuses if that makes sense um so they um you know my brother began to kind of rehash a lot of of that and kind of a question. And my sister started to do the same, and I think my sister finally reached out.

And all in all, maybe two years after the first time I reached out to him, we finally decided to get together and drive down and go meet him. And so I think it was my older brother and sister that came along. And so there's the three of us. I don't think Tammy was involved to that first meeting. And when first met him,

you know, first impression was just it was like I was sad, you know, sad for him because I really felt then and there and maybe you can kind of get the impression or an energy off of somebody

and if there's something so bad like I would have sensed it, I think. and I remember hugging them for the first time and it is just like a whole loaves kind of washed away but there's a huge question mark, okay, what happened? You know, what's going on? Because it didn't take long meeting with him,

talking to him and then, you know, meeting with our uncle, his brother and meeting some of the other family that weekend to realize that, you know, nobody else in the family believed what we believed or fought these things, and they all knew that it was crazy that he was being tried for him. And what he finally got charged with was like indecency or something with the minor. But basically at that time, if I backtrack kind of the story,

and to what had actually happened and transpired is through the course of him and my mother's divorce, my mom had come forward and told him that she was going to be fighting for custody, that he was not going to get to see the kids anymore. And, you know, he asked why, and she says, well, because Sarah's been molested. Okay. And he knew right then at that point. Well, he asked, well, who done it? And, you know, who are they investigating him?

mom said just you and then she left and you know he calls the caseworker of CPS and and realizes that he's you know having fingers pointing at him well the story transpired within you know days and weeks and grew bigger you know all the way to the point where there was um you know all i say tank of cold stuff happening and just crazy crazy stories to go along with it and you know my older siblings i would have gone to foster care at that point, probably six, seven weeks old. And that's, I think some of those events is what triggered me to start maybe remembering stuff really early because I can remember being held by my foster mom at that point. I can remember crawling around.

I can remember gnawing on some cut up pieces of peanut butter and jelly sandwich. You know, I think some of that maybe just had to do with separation and trauma, you know, at that time. But meanwhile, I'm in that foster care program. And my brother and sister, I think for a time, maybe we're in a state facility and they were undergoing. basically a lot of therapy and interviews with police and therapists and experts. And apparently were immediately put on medications along the way. And they seemed, you know, would recall if they were really confused at that time as to what was going on or why they were even there.

And then they had to learn the stories somehow. And so really through just manipulation and through stories my mom, who was schizophrenic at the time, and it blows my mind that, you know, the law wouldn't have taken that into consideration. Like, hey, is this a feasible evidence? And apparently, I guess there's a case in California as well. or the person that was making the accusation also had paranoid schizophrenic tendencies as well. And the fact that, you know, that kind of witness account or the, what he called, mental illness wasn't taken in as, hey, here's a fact you need to consider and see if this is plausible.

And so, you know, I guess it made news headlines. And, you know, and so people in the area even started thinking, because it's a great big news story. satanic, a cult leader, you know, having murdered and mess with his kids, you know, is really juicy stuff, I guess, to be it'll throw out there. So, you know, it took off. And finally, after it all, it, I guess once all transpired, he got sentenced, I want to save to 20 years, and I think he served half of them and got out. I may have to double-check my facts, so I'm sorry.

if I'm wrong on the numbers to be exact. But I guess we'd gone on and moved on, and within a couple of years when mom had gotten, our names changed and was paranoid that there are people from the occult after us when we were moving a lot. I would say by the time I was six, we'd moved probably 15, 20 times.

in fact and some of the stuff my mom claimed was stuff revolving around her being a subject of MK Ultra and and I can't validate or say what's true or not from her because her whole past is kind of riddled with a lot more questions and mystery than hey is there so I do take kind of what she says

is the grain of salt but the story and conspiracy behind it is a little bit bizarre. So, you know, she has kind of this bizarre backstory that seems to follow up to all this actually happening and her leading out on, you know, pointing her finger at my dad and accusing him of Satan worship and occult practices. There were some events that happened. I would say in my early life growing up that very much resembled or seemed to relate back to that kind of subject manner. And it would include like spiritual warfare type things, witnessing a demonic possession.

And even one where I believe, and if it's an okay time, I can maybe even expound at least on these two stories. Yeah, go for it. I'm going to start with the, I guess, the one that revolves more around like some of the MK. Ultramatter. But I remember at the time I was five and we lived in the Houston area. We had a friend from church and his name was Denny. I won't say any last names, but if he's hearing this, he might know. I'm a shame on him. But Denny was a friend of ours from the church.

And I want to say he was like one of those kind of almost cult Christian type sex where it's like, okay, well, God can only be called this name or that name, or he can only be called Yeshua. And a lot of times he sees some really weird or radical ideas or things on some of those extreme, you know, labeled as Christian, but really, I think as a believer, I recognize a lot of these things as more of a type of a cult, if that makes sense. But anyways, he, he had a son my age, and we'd play together. He'd fix some things around the house sometimes, and we just rented. but I remember staying over at his house a couple of times

and the very last time I ever stayed over there. Denny approached me and his son. We'd been playing pretty hard. It's probably three or four in the afternoon. I'm pretty sure my parents, you're coming to, or my mom and my aunt, which is no relation to my mom. It's just a really awesome friend that became best friends with my mom and has been family ever since.

She's still our aunt today. So she's kind of lived a lot of the nightmare with us, or at least the aftermath. And for whatever reason, I'd say it's a godsend, that she stuck through it all and stuck with us. Because I think just so anybody else would have given up. And like, hey, I'm done. This is enough crazy. I don't need this family that bad, you know. But she really stepped up to the plate and made a lot of things possible for us

and made it possible for us to stay together as long as we did. So I would definitely give a shout out to my Aunt Weezer if she ever hears us. But so she and my mom were going to come and pick me up from my friend, Denny's son. And so we were a few hours from that. And he comes to us and he says, hey, you want a piece of bubble gum? Yeah, sure. So I remember he takes a piece of gum and he tears it in half and gives one piece to his son, gives one piece to me. It says, all right, well, y'all come sit down and watch a puppet show.

So we go sit down and Austin had like a little puppet stand thing. And I didn't think anything of it. But then my first impression was, oh, I'm kind of dizzy, kind of tired. And then the puppet show started. At first it seemed like there was maybe two puppets talking. But then, you know, at five years old, I witnessed, like, the faces start changing on the puppets, and my vision seemed very distorted. And then I start hearing multiple voices coming from the puppets and what sounds like languages that I couldn't really even understand. And so what I kind of gathered from that experience and then find what I found out later on,

which I'll share here in a second, reaffirmed my suspicion. Looking back, and this was a realization I had, I'd say in my later teen years, Denny had done something, I believe, in the line of either programming or mine deprogramming, and I believe what was on that gum was LSD, or something that might be used in that kind of psychoactive effect. Because it seems like I passed out maybe just minutes after watching and experiencing all that.

And I don't remember being able to really do anything about it or being able to move. And then I remember waking up and I didn't remember anything about it for a good while. but then it seems like maybe later in the week I recalled something about the story to my mom and then the puppets changing face and then next thing I was hearing I was kind of confused about because I still hadn't realized that Denny was a bad guy.

They had caught on, my mom said that she sensed that Denny was a really bad man. Well, I look up Denny and on his Lincoln profile, he is listed as a spiritual healer and in a mental programmer slash deprogrammer. Wow. Oh, okay. Holy cow.

So when that came to fruition, just finding that out, it's like, okay, all right. And a lot of it, what kind of made me go back and even rehash it was some of the stories I heard. here on the show Tony, you know, kind of gave me inspiration or help me recall a certain memory or something maybe I hadn't thought about in a decade, you know, I mean, life goes on. I'm married with kids now, and there's plenty of other things that I can buy my time and space. So trying to recall all of this now is a little bit of a feat for me trying to talk about it all. So I'll try to tell a story best I can where it can make some sense. shortly thereafter maybe around the same time my mom also she was a believer Christian and she claimed to be you know have recovered and been victim of the occult but through all these years like she held on to that as a real memory like she really remembered doing that even though at least as far as my dad's concern there was no relation of anything like that possibly happening but maybe there's something from her past

And then I also question, well, if there was nothing from the past, how do we get entangled with this weird guy, Denny? That's into programming and deprogramming and giving little kids LSD. You know, like how, why would that come up or how would that transpire? And it seemed like my mom, my mom, my aunt would claim about like astral projection type stuff, people standing in the living room or they're being like noises. like Ashto projected into the house or like just their room sometimes and sometimes it could be like an alarm sound or it could be just some really, really bizarre stuff that's out there, you know. And so let's see, we took care of this girl that came and stayed with us.

She was a little older than all of us and she was maybe, oh, she was probably 16 or 17 at this time. and she was borderline mentally retarded but she had been having issues with demonic oppression and her parents

were believers were really awesome people but they they looked to my mom as somebody that had experience I could help that was a prayer warrior you see through all the craziness and the lies or maybe she believed the

lies that she told, you know, maybe there's a part of her mind that told her that all this stuff that happened was with my dad or, you know, but she was, she was a prayer warrior. She played the blood of Jesus and it would seem to work, but sometimes it would seem to not. And there always seem to be some element of like spiritual warfare around the house. And a few times I sensed or saw it, you know. But this girl, Lorraine became what I believe was possessed. And I remember us being out in the garage and my mom and aunt praying over her and her eyes just being, you know, pupils completely dilated. But I remember the essence of the room just feeling like there's a black cloud all in and around the room. Like there's a weight and like you could feel like heat coming.

off from her from that that you know and it was like just pure hatred and as if you could feel it like when you open an oven you know the heat the heat blast you know you could feel that like a energetic wave of heat just coming from her and so you know i witnessed that and um at the age of six you know so that's kind of early on. And then, let's see, a little later on, probably just some months down the road.

This was after Lorraine. I think I might have been almost seven, maybe still six years old. My brother, you know, he was almost 10 years older, let's see, nine years older than me.

And so, you know, he'd get stuck babysitting sometimes and we'd spend a lot of time together. We were actually pretty, really good friends growing up, always been close. You never been the fighting with each other type.

But this one instance, he stepped on like a clay frog piggy bank of mine by accident. That was under a wad of clothes. And at the time, he was a hefty teenager. So, you know, maybe 250 pounds at the age of 15. And he told me about it. And I remember just feeling this rage completely overtake me. but I just felt hot all at once and I felt like whatever movements and moves I took,

I had no control to stop what my body was doing. And I could just feel like this heat burning, like as if I had a high fever or something, like it was burning out of me, kind of. And I was probably 10 feet away from him. I remember just lunging at him. and I hit him so hard that he basically flew back into the wall, you know, threw him back a couple of feet and then pounced him and proceeded apparently try to choke him.

And then I remember hearing, in the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to leave. I plead the blood of Jesus over Matthew Kyle. In the name of Jesus, and I remember just like becoming completely infuriated with that, except it wasn't really felt like me, if that makes sense. Like I had no control of the situation whatsoever. And then I remember what felt like just a lump in my stomach, like a big rock sitting in my stomach, like felt like I just moved up.

And then I remember just throwing up everywhere. And whatever it was, like, relieved, was gone. And the best of my knowledge, you know, to get that kind of strength. and overwhelming fury all at once. Because even at that age, a lot of times, most of the time I've been pretty easy gone, and I might have been sad,

but in almost no cases would I ever gotten so mad to lash out at him. You know, it just wasn't normal in any way for me. So I remember the feeling of it. It's something that you don't forget. And I would say it was just about as every bit intense as a couple of times, I've really gotten to feel the Holy Spirit, but like total opposite. You know, does it make sense? No, it makes it makes perfect sense.

And, you know, that's kind of like what we hear sometimes where people react to these kind of situations. And I know you're saying, I mean, I'm assuming is what you're saying is that you felt like, I mean, hindsight, hindsight you feel like you were possessed, right? Well, at the time, as best as I could understand it, I knew then because of being somewhat aware of the fact, having seen something similar before. But I kind of feel like, you know, some of the stuff that was maybe invited or around the house, for whatever reason, was able to do what it did that morning. Not for long, but it was definitely something else because I, could not stop whatever was happening.

There's no power left to, it was like watching a video out of my eyes, if that makes sense, but not even hardly my own vision. I don't know. But even then, you know, I think I understood just shortly after, you know, there's a lot of exposure of certain things at an early age where sometimes, you know, maybe I didn't have anything but time to think about. I was a smart enough kid, you know. I actually graduated valedictorian and started,

when I got in the school studies, started picking up real fast. And, you know, from an early age, I was able to teach myself just about anything I wanted to. So, you know, even at the age of five, I would jump on a piano. And the first time I ever got on one, I played Joy to the World, sounded out perfectly about, like, the third try, you know.

And I was like, okay. And then so a lot of things, you know, I got blessed would come naturally. So even then, I think for six years old, I had maybe a little bit more of an acute understanding or at least exposure to things that know hardly any six-year-olds that really. Does that make sense? So I had the logical sense to be able to put the two together and make some sense of what had had. I didn't know how or why, you know, it was just so out of the blue and hit so fast and so hard that it's just never forget. But, you know, having felt some presences since then, I'm very aware of the fact or that I do believe it is a demonic type presence, you know, as opposed to, you know, some other spirit or ghost type thing, if that makes sense. also around that same time

I remember one night laying in bed and this is about the time the insomnia started I'd been on medications for about two years now and looking back in hindsight I kind of see certain things I dealt with as a kid and I've been able to relate a lot of it back to the medications they put me on and so you know some of the stuff that will be pursuing

will be you know the fact that the medications have done a number on our family. And just so, you know, legally we're actually going to be pursuing quite a bit in that field as well. But anyways, the insomnia had kind of started. I remember laying there one night. And I hear, it's all quiet. And then I start hearing what sounds kind of like the symphony. But I can't quite.

located. But then I remember the sound being almost influential as if it was could impress some kind of emotion on me of like peace and warmth. Does that make sense? And the sound became greater and the sound is it was something as such that mentally I can't recreate the sound in my memory because there's almost too beautiful to comprehend. Does that make sense? It's just kind of beyond description. And it was almost like I could hear it out there, but I could hear it inside from me at the same time, like as if it was being projected from my own head and like I was hearing

it in more ways than one. And so it already kind of struck me. I didn't know for sure, but then something just gave me the feeling that I was listening to angels. and I was completely at peace. And it was voices, you know, like choirs of voices. But I believe the following morning, my aunt had come in, and she had been woken up.

She told me later she'd been woken by an angel that told her that she needed to check on me now. And I didn't know, but I was sick, and I had no idea. It got really bad overnight while I was sleeping. And for some reason, I was extremely dehydrated on top of it. And it was sick enough that I couldn't get up and walk when she woke me up. So I got carried to the car and rush the ER.

But, you know, I remember IVs and taking the needles all brave and being in the hospital for a couple of days after. But it's just really kind of interesting to me to be able to look back on the, you know, the fact that, you know, I got to witness and hear and go to sleep to the voices of what I think are angels. And then, you know, being saved by a message from one, you know, the next morning. So I thought that was kind of cool correlation. Maybe God knew or something, you know, maybe there was something happened to me. and something happening around me. You know, we don't, we live in this realm, but we kind of forget there's these spiritual battles going all around us.

And sometimes I kind of wonder if some of those spiritual battles aren't also being fought on partially behalf of our physical well-being or, you know, stuff that can transcend into our physical well-being. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I thought that was real interesting. moving up. I guess I'm just going to follow a chronological order.

I don't know if you have any more questions about my family specifically if I've covered enough there. Well, let's unpack the family stuff here because I think it's important to kind of explore this right now. Okay. So in the late 80s, this happens to your family where your mom wants a divorce and And your dad, from what I understand, has not, was not living with the family then, when she then told your dad that he can't see the kids anymore because of, of sexual assault

on your sister. And that was kind of like news to him. And he, he didn't even really understand that he was the one being accused of it, right? Right. Yeah. It's his first impression he didn't even realize. So he calls CPS to see who's being investigated. And the caseworker says, just you.

Yeah. So I want to tell the audience right now, because I forgot to mention the beginning, there was an entire season done talking about your family and other families who have been, fell victim to the satanic panic of those days. and if people want to check it out, it's called Gimlet. That's the company, Gimlet. But the podcast itself is called Conviction. And then I guess the season is called American Panic, right?

Conviction American Panic. Yeah, Ben, and I can't remember which bought which, but Gimlet, I think Spotify bought Gimlet. And so you can actually go and listen to it on Spotify, free and easy. That's been the easiest way for me to access it. Right. So it may be on other platforms. I'm just not aware if it's anywhere else yet, but I want to say it may be exclusive to Spotify and Gimlet. Okay.

So now that I got that out of the way, so maybe the audience will understand that I have some information already that maybe you didn't mention yet. So they're probably thinking... No, I certainly appreciate that. Thank you. Because they're probably thinking, well, how does he know that? Because Matt hasn't said that. But so that happens, and that kind of throws the whole family into a whirlwind.

and your mom you mentioned about how she had her own issues. Now, do you think that your mom's issues that she had, this might be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyways, do you think she came into the marriage with those issues as far as like the... Yes, I do. And that's where some of the mystery shrouds. Because, you know, dad didn't talk a whole lot. it doesn't seem to be a whole lot of talk or recollection of those kinds of things prior to this.

But then again, some of the family mystery is a little shrouded just because of, you know, her birth record being covered up and hard to find. And the only record I can find for birth shows a different birth date than what went in her. eulogy and, you know, on her record and shows that she was maybe born in New York. But then there's an adoption record that took place just, I want to say, a couple of weeks after the Kennedy assassination. And so, you know, having that kind of weird idea there, we know that there was political ties, you know, from her adopted parents with the Lyndon B. Johnson family. So it's hard to say.

She claims certain things that have also been recited by a handful of other people. And like one of the names, I think that's out there and a lot of this conspiracy stuff might be like Kathy O'Brien. You know, there is deals with my mom supposedly suffering like multiple personality disorders. But then it seems like a lot of these disorders kind of revolve back a lot of times to like a stem root of some kind of programming or MK Ultra or some kind of weird government type of abuse background. you know so I wish wish she was alive and I could ask her more questions about this but then again I don't know what it'd be like if she was alive honestly we may have never contacted my dad and we may have not been able to move on from that part of her lives you know so I I don't know um so you mentioned you mentioned Kathy O'Brien and if I remember correctly uh and maybe you know this

I, but wasn't she the person who was claiming that she was some kind of like sex slave to, I don't even know if I could say her name without. The Clinton. Yeah. You might have to. No, I'm just going to let it go. Just pretend this mother. But I was just making sure I was tracking with you on that.

And I bring all this up because do you, I mean, you've had a lot of time to think about this stuff. But do you think that what your mom, the ball, your mom started rolling in your own family and putting your family through all the stuff you guys been through over the years, your dad specifically, and obviously you guys as the kids being the byproduct of the whole thing. Do you think it might stem from something that might be a little bit more on the realistic side of like MK Ultra programming? I mean, from what you're saying and things, there's a lot, there's a lot of people out there that have these kind of experiences and maybe those experiences spawned what the real hell you guys went through that wasn't true,

but if she's suffering mental disorders and because of what she went through, she just brought that into the marriage and to the family. Yeah, you know, she did have some, I do have a little bit of insight as to what she claims to have gone through via a handwritten diary. from I would say she was a teenager so it was like maybe the 60-70s

and I think the story was of her teenage days but I think it may have been written later on I don't remember the date that is written on but the stories included

really really graphic stuff like supposedly you know, like, you know, being locked inside for days on end and being forced to do this for that. And then having certain parts of her body sewed up while she was awake and undergoing some kind of ritual on the genitalia or some satanic type purpose. And it struck a chord that I found some, you know, similar transatlia. transcript and some of the, I think, Kathy O'Brien stuff. But it seemed like there might have been some mention of something like a

Senator Bird or something that was involved with the military program of MK Ultra or the psychological warfare program. Are you talking about Robert Bird? Are you talking about Robert Bird, the senator from Virginia? I think so. I think he was from Virginia and he died, I think, in the mid-2000. thousands. Okay. So like I hear what you're saying and I imagine for you and your family, it's got to be really hard to kind of go through this information and try to understand

what could be real, what could be not real, what could be the symptom of somebody who just isn't mentally stable. And at the same time, like, well, is she not mentally stable because she actually went through this stuff? Because you know that what your family went through isn't true. And then you try to backtrack to her own personal life before the family even existed. And you start thinking, well, is that true? And that's why she, she mirrored what she went through onto our family. Right. Well, you know, there were some real instances and there are some real things. Another thing that's kind of weird, it seemed like she was always in a cast or dealing with having a broken bone or something. And then toward the instance.

started getting real sick and she had like seven or eight major strokes was paralyzed in three quarters of her body and she could still talk on a sharp you know till the day she died and then it was just a bad practice from the doctor infiltrating a main artery with an injection an experimental type deal where yeah I guess he was supposed to be watching a monitor and he felt like he was better than the equipment he had to use and took the guess and you know killed her so

I would say you know but her mind was always pretty much there and my brother even says that like toward the end she kind of stopped talking about some of that stuff and started talking about some of the good memories and good stuff and kind of acted like as if

some of that was behind her um you know we were always always churchgoers though and in the middle of all that we always very faith oriented and mom kept a you know a bible there on the i mean through all the craziness it was the big leaning on thing which i still hold to my faith but for other reasons and other things that you know affirmed it in my past then maybe necessarily what i was just taught at that time because i see a lot of hoax and question around what some, what I thought was our faith versus that question is, this is real or true,

what was what, you know? Yeah. This doctor that essentially killed your mom, is this a doctor that's, you know, still practicing today? I mean, do you know anything about this person? Honestly, they're, you know, because at the age of nine, I really didn't know much details. And it was kind of later on that I found out, you know, what happened, really happened, you know. And, you know, that evening, our friend, an older friend who's since passed on and our aunt walked in the door and they were with her when she went.

And it was like, hey, sorry, guys, mom's not coming home. She's gone to home forever. It's like, oh, shoot, you know. So, you know, just a shock of it, it's already something for a kid kind of. get through without knowing all the details and then kind of months down the road you know I started hearing some talk of you know a lawsuit and we had a little bit of a trust fund from all that stuff for a little while but all in all I want to say is maybe like three hundred thousand dollars that was paid out to all of us you know so split up once you pay for private

school education and a little bit of life that's gone you know but um we uh you know as far as the whereabouts of that doctor, I don't know. And honestly, his name, I can't recall at this point just because some of those facts I haven't tried to hold on to you. That makes sense. No, it absolutely makes sense. And the reason why I'm asking certain questions is I'm trying to understand and try to wrap my mind around just a lot of this stuff right now. And I don't, I don't know where you stand on the idea of MK Ultra. But MK. Ultra is not something that's hypothetical. It's not something that is just some kind of Reddit conspiracy.

This is something that actually happened to the point that you mentioned to Clinton's before. Like, President Bill Clinton actually issued a statement of a public apology for that program being run within our government. and so it's not a theoretical thing. This is something that actually did happen. Well, that's where I start to put some of the pieces together that kind of reaffirm the plausibility. So we've got a plausible stance because we've got building stones of possible evidence that stack up to that. And one, which would be easy to go through and prove that, you know, Conrad Gustafin heard, adopted dad, which he's gone now,

was good friends and spent a lot of time with Lyndon B. Johnson. Lyndon B. Johnson being the president right, right after John of Kennedy, right? Sure. Okay. Hopefully I've got my facts right. I might be sound like an idiot right now. But, you know, so we've got kind of that political tie, and then there's a kind of odd time frame of her adoption happening within such a

range of that assassination. We know, too, that it is fact that Jonathan Kennedy really liked his mistresses and ladies. He was a ladies man, right? You know, and I'm wondering, because none of my family, we're kind of hesitant on whatever we're going to jump into. And honestly, with where a lot of the world's head and I'm, you know, I already figured if it's a social credit system and just put me on the out.

outlaw because I don't know that my social credit's ever going to be that great. But just where everything's headed, I'm kind of worried about trying to put out a DNA test or get DNA results, you know, but I have wondered, you know, what kind of results that might bring back and if that might just sum up some of that solution. Or if there is indeed fact in that being a blood relative, do I really want that being public or information that can be accessed that way and proven. Does that make sense? So I don't know if I really want that on record either.

You know, if those guys are all getting assassinated. We've already dealt with enough to not be dealing with that, I feel like, you know. So I'm not going to claim that that's true. It's just something that's been thrown out there. It's something that she believed. I will say. that, but we don't have any further evidence much more than what I've told you. I will say that we did have a lot of things stolen from us at one point. When I was six, there's a white van parked

out in front of our house, and like our garage met up to the alleyway in the back. So we all piled up in the back and left out from the driveway. So it was my three siblings, my aunt, my mom, and me on a little Honda Civic. And as soon as my mom's seen it, I just remember there being a couple of guys in the front of the van. Well, this van, as soon as we shut out from the alley, this van jumps on and it's like on our tail.

My aunt's going fast, like 50, 60 miles an hour at this neighborhood. And then she cuts up off the curb. And now she's going across an open field to get over to the main road. She's cutting several of the neighborhood streets. And this van's on our tail. And they're on our tail until she gets up on the freeway.

And within some miles, she probably loses them. And we stayed out of state for a couple of weeks at that point. And I think we went up to Oklahoma for a little bit. When we got back, we stayed in a hotel for a couple of nights, maybe with a friend one night. And then my mom was making a deal with the landlord on the other side of town for another house. kind of got resituated, had a few things brought over, but was told that a lot of things were stolen. Maybe there's some paperwork that was stolen. I think there might have been some stuff of hers that was taken.

So I don't know if it was something we're popping around any of that, who they were. But it was really odd thinking back that there would be somebody purposeful enough to be trying to chase us down, you know? Yeah. So what you're saying is this van chased you guys down. you guys lose the van and then when you, I guess, return home or whatever, things were stolen. Yeah. Well, I never got to step foot back in the house.

I was told that a lot of things were destroyed and later told that there was, you know, some important things stolen. I don't know what all they were. I don't know if it could have been evidence or proof if there was some kind of government deal in it, you know, but it kind of raises. the bar to the question a little bit higher like okay well what was at stake what was so important or who was this or who are we that they'd be chasing us you know so i mean there's a whole world wind of questions and i wouldn't know where to begin to answer some of them some of them

i might be more satisfied leaving in the question field and putting myself in a position or finding out that some things are true, and then, you know, things transcending into my life and now my family, you know. I don't want that for my kids and my family or to get on some path of being chased or feeling like we're being chased. So I don't know. I would say that the idea of you guys, your family, as in you, your wife, kids, I just get the sense that you're probably out of the radar at this point.

Just because of what I... Yeah, I feel like to the most part. Yeah, I mean, because of what I know about you and, you know, some things that we're not going to mention on the show. And also, you know, the podcast that came out through a very big company, it seemed... I don't think that would have happened if you guys were still on the radar because, like, people have to understand. Right. like this this stuff goes deep. This stuff goes really deep. And I understand not everybody, like I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. But some of the things that you're saying

to me ring true for my own personal experiences with other people. I mean, I've mentioned it here and there. I'm in communication with somebody who's pretty much known to be dead. And he has a story to share that neither one of us feel comfortable coming out with right now. And some of the things you're saying to me in here have a lot of a lot of similarities to what he has said to me in the past. It seems almost as if, like, that, that whole robbery situation was almost like they were, they were after you, but almost at the same time trying to chase you away so they could do what they wanted to do back at the house.

Yeah. That makes sense because, yeah, realistically, if it was, you know, such an event that would be like, let's say witness protection worthy, which a lot of the stuff we went through along with the name changes were very much hinting at a lot of the same things actually would do under witness protection, but I don't know that we were really under witness protection. I do know the FBI was involved. I know we've since been in touch with the agent that was involved with some of the original stuff with my mom and looking over some of her claims and going to check the supposed burial sites of any, probably heard some of that in the podcast if you made it that far.

But, you know, so he might have a little bit more insight to some of the stuff. I would just probably need to, you know, take time to be able to reach out and maybe have some of those questions ready, you know. Yeah. And then again, you know, some of these people, there's only so much that maybe they can share or really talk about, I reckon, you know. absolutely i and you know earlier you mentioned about how you know all this stuff it it you don't really have a whole lot of proof of it uh and and and that's along your mom's line here but some of the things right one of the things that you you did mention on the show and one thing you haven't mentioned yet i think lend to the idea that it's possible i'm not saying it it happened this way

i'm not saying anything that's factual i'm just saying it's possible that it could be a little bit more of a leaning towards proof that this might be something legitimate to look into, at least. One is your experience where you feel like you were drugged by that guy. I forget what his name was. And I'll get back to him in a second. But also, actually, let me do that now. This guy that...

Go ahead. I was going to say, and I don't want to put it out there publicly, but between you and me, I'll message you his name if you want to personally check it out and see it for yourself. But you might find a little bit intriguing just to see kind of some of his stuff because you might put a little bit into perspective. No, I mean, when you see this guy, it looks like the cutout, cookie cut out from a TV show of like the kind of well put together, influential, it seems like you can trust this guy, you know, tall standing character.

But I don't know. And what did you say his specialties were? He's a spiritual healer slash programmer slash deprogrammer. In fact, I'm looking it up right now because I've got his page saved right here. It's, I won't say his last name out loud, but let's do a quick security check. That's weird. He says spiritual consultant, D-programmer with the Shure Foundation, S-U-R-E. He's trying to log it on, but yeah, I'm not sure.

You probably look up some stuff on the Shurr Foundation and see some of us. Okay. Yeah, I'll look into it and stuff. I just did a quick search on Duck, Duck, Go, and the first several things that pop up is, I guess some kind of Christian organization, surefoundation.com or no, dot church. The first result was is surefoundation.org, but the title is sure foundation Lutheran Church. So he must have some kind of religious affiliation, yeah? Yeah, and he claims to be.

But in my experience, whatever I witnessed at day was nothing holy or, or spiritually uplifting, if anything, it was downright scary, intimidating, and made me feel completely helpless, you know? So I certainly wouldn't take whatever actions. He committed that day as some result of, I think he hides behind. Right. It's a wolf and sheep's clothing. Yeah, it's an asside.

Yes. Yeah, it's... He's got other interest in mine. Right. And a lot of times people use different things that publicly look good on them just as a cover story to what they're really about. And when it comes... And this is something that I don't have any... Like, I can't say, you know, 100% it's happening.

But I personally believe that the MK Ultra Program, I don't think it ever stopped. I just think it changed faces. I think it changed locations as far as... like how you view it and what they call themselves and how they go about business. And I wonder if he has some kind of tie there, whether he, like, I wouldn't say like he's checking in at MK Ultra headquarters, but is he being influenced by certain people that are affiliated to do certain things with people that, you know, maybe under direction? And that, yeah, you know, part of the question has posed if there is connections between us being chased.

And in him with that, and I've made some connections to, you know, was this guy, did this guy just happen across my mother? Or was my mother prayed to him? You know, was he seeking out? Or, you know what I mean? Or was there something before some reason that he was there other than what we thought? Does it make sense? Because it's a bizarity of, okay, this guy we met in church. and, you know, that that would be, you know, that he would have ties to that, you know, and programming,

deprogramming type stuff. So, I don't know. No, and me neither. Me neither. We're just thinking out loud, and that's what I do on the show. We think out loud and connect dots sometimes while we're recording. And sometimes after I'm done recording, I'm like, oh, crap, you know. But sometimes you wake up in the middle of night with the idea you're like, oh, my gosh, I get it now.

But so that happened to you. We hear from you what your mom was at least claiming. We know what happened to your family because of your mom. But the story doesn't end there because your brother, John, and sister Sarah were in a children's, I guess, group home of some kind. And they had an experience there, at least starting with your sister. that really, like when I heard this, because I did, you mentioned, you didn't know if I got to that far, I'd listened to the entire season. I heard everything that was at least public. They mentioned on that episode your sister's experience, and they didn't go down this road.

I don't, you know, quite frankly, I doubt they would even thought to go down this road. But when I was listening to it, and I'm going to have you tell the experience as best you can, it was screaming to me, M.K. Ultry, I'm driving. my truck and I'm like, uh, that's off, that's off, that's off. And, uh, if you could, just kind of let the audience know the best, to best of your knowledge, what happened in that group. Okay. Well, you know, Sarah being five and John being maybe nine, almost 10, John was definitely the protective big brother and then being separated from mom, you know, it was really important for them to be, be by each other. And John woke up on morning.

and notice Sarah wasn't there for breakfast. I was like, you know, where's Sarah? And they're like, oh, she's sleeping. And then they kind of, I remember exactly the details. It seemed like they kind of started roundabouting. But then like a number of days, maybe a couple of weeks had gone by. He was really worried nobody would tell them where Sarah was. And then when Sarah came back, after being separated for that time,

She was completely traumatized and changed. And she was so scared. She couldn't even, like, just go potty without somebody standing next to her because she was just so fearful of everything. And, yeah, John said she was never the same after that. And, you know, whatever they did, they basically broke a five-year-old under the protection of the state. You know, that's part of what we'll be pursuing in this example. honoration, I believe, is some of the mistreatments there.

And it would be interested to see, you know, how deep, you know, with the lawyers might uncover going down this rabbit hole, you know. But as far as she's concerned, she, I can't remember her recollection of it. I mean, there's so much involved with it all that it's hard to recall the exact occurrences, but you know, as far as I can tell, something happened to her during that time, what it was exactly isn't really clear.

But, you know, she came back a different person and there was a secrecy to each other as to where they'd even been, you know, when they were separated. So that, to me, it seems very inhumane. And it was a program that was there to protect and help children that were. going through something that definitely wasn't a way to handle it, you know. Right. And so to kind of tie an outside view into it as well, not an outside view, but

you know, third party, I guess, during this time, you know, it was. It was during the time of this satanic panic thing. And your family is not the only one that went through this. There's a there's a lot of things that went through this. And a lot of claims as to the people doing the investigations to the the psychologist, kind of almost manipulating the children and forcing them to, not forcing them, but manipulating to the point where they believed that they were, you know, abused in certain ways and they would come forward and see that crazy things. So in order to get a child to do that, I think there's different methods of getting there. And it all depends on the character of a child. And so, yeah, leading questions. And, you know,

know, a lot of those interrogators are trained to exploit and direct that conversation, exploit the weaknesses, and pick up on the, you know, the kid's body language. And then, you know, you for kids, you know, you put out a little reward or this or that. And then you get this information, you know, or, you know, or it could be a question like, and did your dad touch you there? Well, and if you could see me right now, I'm nodding my head. head as I'm asking that question, like, as if, you know, to direct a child, the right answer. And the kid would be like, no, well, let me ask you this. Did, you know, did he maybe do something

inappropriate to you here? And, and just ask the same question over and over again to look at, it's like, well, no is apparently the wrong answer. So I've got to say yes. It's really ridiculous and almost logically unfounding that you can wrap your brain around that being believability as opposed to just some dirty cop saying, okay, here we go. You know, so maybe I've got a little bit of a little bit of grudge sitting there for some of them guys. Well, I mean, because what they'll do is they establish a foundation to build off of. So sometimes kids are easier than others, right?

but sometimes they have to really kind of build that foundation to get the desired result that they want instead of truth. They're in for something. And so they'll say things like, you know, did your daddy ever give you a bath? Yeah. Did he ever wash you? Yeah. Did he ever touch you there in the bathtub?

Yeah. They establish that foundation and they build from there to get the child used to saying yes to certain things than to get them to say yes to what they want them to say yes to. And I think a lot of the kids went through those kind of things. And I have some theories about that that we'll get into on the other segment here. But Matt, with everything that we've covered here, where is your family now as far as the direction of everything going? I know your sister and John are like in the next room from where you're speaking right now. Is the whole family unified in this effort to help exonerate your dad from all this stuff?

Or is there any kind of... Go ahead. No, go ahead. I was going to say there's no opposition from the family. And the person who would have been most hesitant, my aunt, we'll put it this way, has told my dad, well, if you want to save some on the bills, I've got an extra room up here. You can come move in. So obviously her mind, and she was the biggest believer in right-hand friend to my mom through all of this aftermath, you know, and she came in the picture just a couple years after the fact.

And her coming into the picture, I will tell you, she knew overwhelmingly that it was a godsend thing. And she knew literally a year before meeting us that she was going to be meeting. somebody and she would know at that time. So it seemed like in the kind of religious realm of things, the spiritual realm that there's kind of a precursor set up for her beforehand. But even her being so involved from the worst side of it, knowing the most about all the bad stuff about my dad, having met and come through the other side,

for her to be at the position of, you know, we could be roommates is huge, you know. And so that's kind of a pretty good picture of really the response we've had across the board with most of my family and my foster family. You know, I would say my brother Matt, you know, that wasn't confusing at all growing up. But yeah, I've got a foster brother named Matt that, you know, he learned about what these girls that did this podcast were doing and got us all in touch. and really help lay the foundation, plant the seed for us to pursue this story and take this route. And all in effort to just, well, we didn't realize how many people it'd get to. And those girls, when I started the story on our family and the podcast, didn't realize how big or how far this story would reach.

And, you know, since then, you know, we've gotten to talk to. to a handful of people, and more so my older brother or sister, you know, but they've talked to other kids that have gone through some of this stuff. There's been some really interesting stories. And in fact, I believe that the girl that's doing the podcast with my brother, I think, had gone through similar things as well. So, you know, we're all, I think we're all in support of my dad. we all see kind of a picture and how he was wrong.

And still to this day, and he probably got the sense hearing him on the podcast. You know, I really look up to him in that somehow he doesn't harvest his hate and anger for how he was misdone, you know. He's just happy as I'll get out to be alive and even happier if he has two cents to grow together, you know? Well, I would say, I mean, your dad had everything taken away from him. and with no promise of ever getting anything back in life. And the fact that he has three of his kids back in his life,

that is worth more than gold. And so I would be the happiest guy in the world. Like if you put yourself, you have kids, right? Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Exactly. I mean, imagine being taken from your kids with no promise of ever seeing them again. And then all of a sudden, they're back in your life.

I mean, you wouldn't catch me with a bad day. You know? That's an interesting perspective. I forget to think out of my own box, a little too often. My life has led me around to tendencies of being more pessimistic or just, you know, Sailor's mouth on me when I'm by myself, just, you know, getting frustrated over this or that. But, yeah, I've come a long way being married.

You can't act all while to your man tendency. and stay married, you know. I've had a little bit of that corrected, you know, since. You know, the most involved, you know, it doesn't take all of us necessarily working on it, but my foster parents, West and Jan, they came up in that podcast as well. And, you know, they had a little bit of backstory to kind of tell about my mom and some of their, you know, take on, you know, some of their experience in this whole matter of it because more or less they were there in the very beginning with John and Sarah's foster family stuff and they stayed in touch all through the years. You know, we're willing to keep a helping hand and when my mom passed, my mom had already set up and knew that we'd have a place to go.

So, you know, I would say, you know, I'm very blessed and fortunate because, you know, I wound up with some really, big family after all of it. You know, I've gotten to meet some of the cousins and uncle and, you know, the grandparents have all passed on by now. But, you know, I guess we don't really have any opposition in the family as far as what we're pursuing and why. And, you know, it seems like everybody's kind of pretty much on board and support for it and hoping for the best.

Yeah. And, I mean, for people to understand, yeah, your dad's, at a jail, but he still has to be registered on the sex offender list. And that's a huge part of this whole thing of exoneration. I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned about how your dad feels and how he feels right now and how vibrant he is. How do you, your sister and brother, feel about your mom right now? I gotta kind of sometimes make two boxes for people in your head, I think.

Because there's a part of me that will always love her and honor her as my mother. A lot of it is more of a heartfelt, you know, why or what was going on, more kind of questions for her as opposed to. Then there was a point, Tony, like even just a couple years ago, kind of after we'd started hashing all this up, you know, I would have cursed my mother from beyond the grave just, you know, for what she'd put us through. But since then, you know, kind of learned to not let that anger and harshness abound and, you know, my feelings and thoughts toward her as much as, yeah, it's kind of crappy, you know, and there's no real. nice way to say, you know, she was, you know, kind of a crazy case. She had, you know, all the symptoms and it seemed like the schizophrenia to go with it. You know, she claimed to be a whole personality disorder, you know, so all the crazy stuff was there. But, you know, I still remember the mom, though, that, you know, might take us fishing or riding in the car with her. And I was always her favorite for some reason. Like, you know, so we connected really well. And toward the end, when she was in a wheelchair, um, she didn't have a lot of money, you know,

we lived off a little bit of government assistance and, um, help from churches and live in a little big down trailer house in the Dallas area. And we'd go for a walk, you know, around to the corner gas station. But we'd go before, you know, John and Sarah and the others would get home from school or if it was just me and her because she didn't want to have to buy everybody something. And she may have done this with all of us, but if she did, she sure made a way of making it feel special about it.

But she, you know, take me up there and get a drink and a butterfinger, and that was kind of our deal. I just walk and talk. And I remember singing in the car with her and us duetting. I have fond memories of her, you know, playing the accordion or piano some and singing along with it. So, you know, there's there's all these great things that, you know, not really knowing better at the age and knowing that she was crazy, didn't really shed a light over me for me to have any hate toward my mother when she was alive. So the way I remember her, I don't remember ever hating her, but, you know, in the after of it all, you know, there's a point where I did kind of question like, oh, man, do I hate my mom?

you know, she's been dead for almost 20 years. And now, now it's been, crap, 22 years. Yeah, yeah, 22 years. And so there's a box where there's a lot of mystery and a lot of crazy and a lot of, like, I can't believe you did this. And there's kind of a box, like, you know, and kind of saving grace is some of her mental illnesses and don't know what to put in a box of her deliberately lying or, you know, her thinking she was telling the truth, you know.

And so I definitely can't hate her for it because regardless, you know, we watched her work her butt off to try to keep us together. And remember her owning her own business sometime. She wasn't the best health, but she would completely make ready and clean houses from top to bottom. And we'd go help her frequently, you know. I remember scrubbing baseboards at 6 and 7 and we get, you know, I might get paid $5, 10 bucks a day. And I thought that was great, you know, happy.

So, you know, she had sense to teach us hard work too, you know, and teach us out to earn and do some of that from an early age. So, I mean, there's a lot of things about her where she's a really good mother. She's also kind of often the neighborhood mom. So like a lot of the kids come up to our house and she might have, have like, okay, well, we're all going to decorate cookies today. And like, okay, cool. You know, everybody likes cookies.

So she's always kind of fun stuff for us to do, you know. So I don't know. It's like she was so crazy on one end. There's so much happening. And she was so, you know, this victim of all these things. And some may be true, maybe not, you know. But on the other end, you know, she was, just kind of put in perspective, Tony,

months before she died. I walk in the house from school and I told you she was paralyzed, waist down and on the left side. And she is standing up at the kitchen sink, holding herself up with her right arm and washing the dishes. So she was always, like with everything she had,

no use of her legs, like she was standing with her one arm, washing dishes, making sure that kitchen was cleaned. So, you know, her kids could have a clean home. So she definitely always worked hard for us, you know, and even did feats I can look back on and think we're dang near impossible, you know. But I've got a lot of respect for her mother. I've got a lot of heartbreak there too. You know, a lot of it's really more sad for her than mad now, if that makes sense.

But then again, I also do kind of clean on that I believe she had faith in Jesus. And I believe that she doesn't have to. sit here and quarrel with that hell on earth that she went through anymore and that, you know, that we have a God that's big enough to redeem all of those things, you know, so I do hope and pray that, you know, she's living a really awesome full life that I can't imagine now, you know. Yeah. So I don't know, but like I said, you know, I kind of, keep those two boxes

separated my mind, but the one box with all the negative stuff just isn't as harsh and as angered as it used to be, if that makes sense. You know, I've kind of grown and, and, uh, learn, learn more about it and learn to live with it.

But upon, you know, a lot of the discoveries we've made in the process of, you know, this conviction story and, and communicating with my dad, you know, a lot of eye-opening stuff, carries a lot of emotional baggage with it and a lot of like, oh, wait, you know. And so, you know, a natural tendency would be angry about a lot of those things. But I don't know.

I've gone through seasons of letting that anger take me as low as you can imagine, you know, and by the grace of God, you know, I'm still here. So I just prefer not to let those kinds of emotions crowd. take my, you know, that, right. Take up my being, if that makes sense. No, it makes total sense, man. And if your mom, if your mom wasn't mentally ill, I could imagine everybody'd feel totally different right now. But the fact is your mom had her own issues.

And that has to play as part of the equation as to how you feel about everything, you know, with hindsight. there has to be a certain amount of empathy that comes from it. And it's nice to hear you say that. And, you know, I'll tell you, you mentioned about your brother starting a podcast with that other lady. If your brother ever wanted to come on and talk and stuff, I'd be happy to talk to him about this stuff too, because it's just, it's really interesting to hear your perspective. Because on the other podcast, you weren't.

featured until the last episode. I don't think they even mentioned your name really. Right. It was just a short tidbit, yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, this is the perspective of a kid who was seven months old when this all first happened. And your brother was nine. And so he has a completely different perspective. But it's really, it's really nice to hear how you feel with hindsight. and, man, listen, I think we're going to, we're going to head into the overtime segment right now, but I wanted to let the, I wanted to let the listeners know right now that there is a go-fundme to help your dad. And there's, there's a lot of financial things of traveling, staying in hotels, eating,

when you're out of town and stuff. And just like your mom, your dad lives on, what, would you say it was just a paycheck, a month from Social Security? you know, I think like $700 something dollars, you know, he pays his rent and he makes $100 stretch for his food. He lives in a place where basically his bathtub is falling through the pier and being a registered

sex offender too limits him so much. So he basically lives in a slumlord place that's made for, you know, kept around for, you know, basically for lack of a better word, like rejects for people that, you know, other people don't want around in their neighborhood or society, you know. And so it's, you know, to me, it's almost, it's almost kind of a little slap of shame that he has to live that way.

To me, you know, I wish, kind of wish siblings were better equipped to come back and take care of them already. But I think you guys, we're just not there. Well, no, I think you are there, man. I really do. I think what you guys are doing is, is in the process of helping your dad, whether it's, It's the legal part of it and helping him get through that to exposing the story on a mass scale so people hear about it and they're more inclined to reach out and help in any way they can. I think you guys are doing it now. And I think it's really good, man. I really do.

It would be easy for you guys to just reconnect with dad and, you know, sail off into the sunset and just kind of let things fall where they may. But you all have a sense of justification. There needs to be justification here. and I respect that a lot. If anybody in audience wants to help, they can go to the GoFundMe. I'll put it in the link in the description of this show. And the title of the GoFundMe, I don't know much about GoFundMe, but I can tell you,

I don't know if you can search for this title, but it's called Exonerating Melvin Quinny, victim, Satanic Panic. And so if anybody wanted to go and help contribute to that, GoFundMe, they can do that right there. it's open and available to you if you feel inclined to do so. But Matt, man, listen, stick around with me. We're going to go into overtime and we're going to get into some more paranormal experiences that you and your family have gone through. And we're going to touch on the MK Ultra stuff again and maybe scratch it a little bit harder

in the overtime segment. But just to give the audience a heads up as to what's coming here, we're going to talk about anything from miracles to what's. sounded like to me in the email as some kind of teleportation, or not teleportation, maybe I'll just say call it a transport of some kind. And, and your sister's astral projection, prophetic dreams involving 9-11. There's a lot of stuff that we're going to dive into here. And hopefully people, you know, stick around and check it out. But Matt, thanks for being here on this first segment, man. Oh, absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Well, that's the show, everybody. I really hope you enjoyed it. If you did enjoy it, please share the show with your friends. That's the best thing you can do to help this show grow is to share it around the internet with your friends, not just the internet. Text it to people. I don't care how you share the show. Just share the show if you enjoyed it. And just a reminder, we are doing an overtime segment available right now on the website in the overtime segment section for the members. So if you want to hear more of this conversation, head on over there if you're a member and check it out. And until next week, friends, stay safe. Take care. And remember, the truth was such a free. But first, though,

you off. Bye. I turned on to the road, which led it to my customer's house, and I was maybe a quarter mile from my last turn, I believe, and I got a phone call, and it was one of the supply companies. It might have been like a Home Depot, just confirming like an order. So it was kind of an inconsequential, just like seven or eight second literal phone calls. Like, okay, cool, I'll be there so-and-so. maybe a 10, 15 second phone call, but I had my GPS on because going all between the places, it definitely helped to have a guiding map handy, even though pretty much knew the area,

but some parts were kind of new to me. And I looked at my phone, which was on my little dash holder for it, and I clicked the red button to end the call. And as soon as I looked up, the whole scenery, and you got to think for me to look down at my phone pushing up. I mean, I've still got the road in my peripheral. But somewhere in my crossing and looking up, the whole view around me was completely different,

was completely changed. And I was very disoriented. Like, you know, this doesn't seem right. how did I get on this wrong road? And I drive maybe a quarter mile. I'm like, okay, I would have seen the customer's house. And I pull over because my maps was frozen up. And my maps was frozen on the spot.

And I looked back at it and I was able zoom in. And it showed me where I thought I was at right before my customer's turn. but I knew that this area was not right, but the maps was frozen. I had to restart my phone, turn the phone back on. It updated, and also in that time, there was no passive time. You know, it was like a few-second phone call, and I literally looked down for two seconds and it was in a completely different area. And just to confirm, when my phone came back on, I looked back at the phone call

in the time that it took place. And at this point, you know, I'd already drove, drove some, pulled over, gone through, staring at my map deal, and then it being frozen, turning my phone back off, turning it back on. So it'd been like five or six minutes since that phone call. My map's updated, and it showed me like nine miles away from that location. But it was on a completely different road. too. Thousands of government-sponsored experiments did take place at hospitals, universities, and

military bases around our nation. Informed consent means your doctor tells you the risk of the treatment you were about to undergo. In too many cases, informed consent was withheld. Americans were kept in the dark about the effects of what was being done to them. The deception extended beyond the test subjects themselves to encompass their families and the American people as a whole. For these experiments were kept secret, and they were shrouded not for a compelling reason of national security, but for the simple fear of embarrassment.

And that was wrong. The United States of America offers a sincere apology to those of our citizens who were subjected to these experiments, to their families, and to their communities. When the government does wrong, we have a moral responsibility to admit it. The duty we owe to one another to tell the truth and to protect our fellow citizens from excesses like these is one we can never walk away from. Our government failed in that duty. This report I received today is a monumental document, but it is a very, very important piece of a major, of America's history and it will shape America's future in ways that will make us a more honorable, more successful and more ethical country. I think it must be engraved on

our national memory.