The Confessionals - RELOADED | 34: The Cursed Church

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Tonight Matt shares his account of dating a girl in high school who decided to play with an ouija board while he was visiting. He describes what occurred and how the event got personal very quickly! Later he brings his wife on the show to share the time she experienced a haunting in a church they attended. When she confronted the pastor about it, he confirmed that the church was indeed cursed!Become a member for ad-free listening, extra shows, and exclusive access to our social media app: theconfessionalspodcast.com/joinThe Confessionals Social Network App:Apple Store: https://apple.co/3UxhPrhGoogle Play: https://bit.ly/43mk8kZSasquatch and The Missing Man: merkelfilms.comMerkel Media Apparel: merkmerch.comSPONSORSSIMPLISAFE TODAY: simplisafe.com/confessionalsUNCOMMON GOODS: uncommongoods.com/tonyGHOSTBED: GhostBed.com/tonyCONNECT WITH USWebsite: www.theconfessionalspodcast.comEmail: [e-mail] ADDRESS:Merkel Media257 N. Calderwood St., #301Alcoa, TN 37701SOCIAL MEDIASubscribe to our YouTube: https://bit.ly/2TlREaIReddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/theconfessionals/Discord: https://discord.gg/KDn4D2uw7hShow Instagram: theconfessionalspodcastTony's Instagram: tonymerkelofficialFacebook: www.facebook.com/TheConfessionalsPodcasTwitter: @TConfessionalsTony's Twitter: @tony_merkel

Merkel? Medias. I guess it's time to go back in time. Are you telling me you built a time machine? Kind of a Dolion? Time is but a stubborn illusion. I have a lot of memories of the past. People are time traveling within themselves.

Time travel is possible. Here for what? You guys hear that? Okay, I reload it. Welcome to the show, everybody. I am your host, Tony Merkel, and I am really glad that you're here, and I'm really glad to be here. Tonight I have a great show coming up. I have Matt coming on, and he's going to share his experiences with his girlfriend from high school

when they experienced some things while she was playing with a Ouija board. And then a little bit later, Matt brings on his wife to share an experience that she had at a church. that the pastor says is cursed. Without any further delay, let's bring on Matt and his wife, Leslie. Okay, tonight I have a special guest coming on. His name is Matt, and he contacted me on Facebook after hearing the show, and he told me he had some stories he wanted to share with me, and Matt, I thank you for your patience waiting for me to get back to you, because right now I'm getting a lot of emails from people, and sometimes just emails fall through the crack, and And it takes a while to get back to some people.

But how are you doing, man? I'm doing good. I'm doing real good. I mean, I'm living the dream. So I'm excited about hearing your story tonight. You talked to me on the email about a story, actually two different things that happened to you that you'd like to talk about. And the first one, you mentioned about a Ouija board incident when you were, I think, 17 years old. Why don't you walk us into what was going on there?

Yeah, well, when I was 17 years old and, Tony, as I'm going down, I find the dad's name. Wow. And I'm, no, I'm not moving. This time, it was probably midnight. They're just, they're just, they thought, okay. So I sat back down on the couch. I said, let me ask it.

Let me ask it. They get their hands out of this. This is, it's kind of difficult to talk. It's still deer in the headlights look. That's how they died. They, they hung themselves. And then they, the mom's getting concerned. And I said, you guys need to do.

be, you guys need to be stopping this. I said my grandpa, I believe the way I worded it was, my grandpa had a, what happened. And it's spelled out, little foot back on, but he never had one the night to end. I wanted to get out of there. And that's basically what happened. I think, I think something bad came through. I don't necessarily think it was a five-year-old. That's why I think something came through saying it was a-

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've never been around one because I was, since a young age, I was told that you don't play with those. And one thing with my family is my mom was never shy about telling me the truth. Like, ever since I was a kid, she was just very honest with me when it came to this kind of stuff or just real-life scenarios, anything. She just was, she never lied to me. She was just very upfront and honest.

And I remember her telling me not to mess with these things. And she told me, you know, some things that she experienced, uh, throughout her life. But, uh, I wanted to ask you, when you went over to the house with a pizza, it was the mom, your girlfriend and the sister, correct? Yes. Was the mom actively participating in this? Or was she just observing as you were? As I was.

She was, uh, four. Okay. Now, when they flipped out, I'm assuming you mean the mom flipped out as well, right? Yeah, she did. Believe it or not, not as much as what the two girls did. I don't know if, if, yeah, no, I absolutely understand that. I just, you know, I just, I'm curious as to what the mom's knowledge was when it comes to Ouija boards. I mean, was it something that she wasn't real familiar with or, you know, was it something that she

was very familiar with and testing the waters to see how the new boyfriend reacts to the family hobby. You know what I mean? I just, it's very curious to me. What? I'd never thought about it. Because when you say the girls were freaking out and the mom was like, uh, like she was maybe reacting, but not reacting like the girls were. Uh, it makes me feel like maybe she kind of expected something like this to happen eventually. Maybe not every time they play with it, but maybe she's experienced something. I don't know. I'm just drawing a picture with no real facts to support it. But I'm just saying what it makes me think of.

Because then when you're saying put that away right now and you're demanding it, it's like she flips it from one extreme to the other where she's not flipping out with her daughters like they're flipping out to when you say put it away. It's like she went to the other extreme. He's like, yeah, girls, put that away now. You know what I mean? It just, it just finds a, it strikes me a little odd, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. I hadn't thought about that way, maybe because I'm... Yeah. What do you think your girlfriend and her sister, they're the ones that flipped out, what do you think they thought was going on before the seriousness of what was going on actually took place? Like, they're participating with the Ouija board, and they clearly thought it was something that was fun up to that point. Did they ever, did she ever mention before this all happened as to what she thinks is actually going on here?

I thought they were setting me up to scare me. You know, I thought they had, and that's, you guys, you guys crazy? Wow. I said, look at the time, and I said, you don't call a little boy. Yeah. It gets a loved one. Yeah. I mean, those are, those are some good points, you know, and even back to when they were asking the questions and, or when you told them to ask a certain question, it was very direct and to the point with the response.

It wasn't, you know, like you were reading into things. It was very direct answers. And it does make you wonder, you know, if you want to accept the fact that it is a five-year-old boy that died in a car crash in the, you know, the town over, how does that five-year-old boy know those things? Almost what I think kind of happened here. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that experience is something that I would carry with me the rest of my life, man,

that definitely sounds, it sounds like an eye-opening experience, you know, like I'm sure you probably don't look back at it now and you get terrified out of your mind and you think about it, but I'm sure it was something that educated you for the rest of your life. It did. It did. I mean, I grew up in the church and I still go to church. I understand that. Well, I mean, speaking of church, you did tell me that you had an experience with you and your wife at a church that, well, it just really should. shouldn't have happened at a church. And I would like to see if you want to share that. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, that would be perfect because it actually happened to her, right? Great.

Hello, Matt's wife. How are you? Doing good. This is the first time I've shared this story. Okay. Well, we're eager to hear it. So what happened? Well, I think it sort of helps if you can hear a little bit of the background to that particular day. We were going to, an old church that's in our town. I want to say it was probably maybe started around the 1800, because our town was founded like in the 1830s. So it's one of the original strut.

We live in a really small town, so you kind of know everybody that's there. And that morning, I had taken our boys to church. Matt worked a swing shift schedule. So I think he was on midnight that day. But so anyhow, I had taken him to church that morning.

morning. And the reason I mentioned that is because this door that I'm going to tell you about here in a minute, I was actually opening that door and I went through that door that morning. So we were at the service and our youngest son was only months old at the time. He was maybe, I don't know, six months, the sanctuary in order to take him to where the nursery was. So during the service, I had walked out of these doors and they were the old, Like, have you ever been in an old church where there's the, like, 10-foot-tall kind of accordion type of doors that can open? The ones that kind of, like, divide rooms? Yes, exactly.

Yeah, because it divided the sanctuary from sort of like a little fellowship hall. And so anyhow, during the service, I had walked out that door and took care of our son and then went back in for rest of the service with him. and older son had a 4-H meeting. So I knew that we were going to be staying there for a little bit. But since Matt was on midnight, I didn't want to bring the kids home and deal with lunch and those kind of things. So we left for a little while and got back to the church. And the important thing is when we got back to the church, we were actually the only people in the church. The door was unlocked, kind of like the back door did to get into the church.

And since we were the first ones there, I said, well, you know, let's go ahead and get things set up for the meeting because I knew, you know, the way the advisor like the chairs arranged and those kind of things. And since our youngest was still in a car seat, like the type that you could carry, I didn't have to worry about him going anywhere. So we probably got there 20 to 30 minutes before the meeting began and got some things set up. But it was about 5 till 2. I can remember that because the meeting started at 2. So it was about 5 till 2. And I was starting to get a little concerned, because I thought, you know, why isn't anyone here?

I knew there should have been other, you know, 4-H members and a lot of kids showing up. But you can ask Matt. I'm notorious with getting dates and times mixed up, and I thought, oh, my gosh, you know, I showed up on the wrong day of the meeting, and there's probably not a meeting today. So what I decided to do was to walk back sort of like through the fellowship hall to where the sanctuary was because there was a little table, like where they set out the program of the day, you know, that it has come like the hymns in it that you're singing and events that are coming up for the week. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like a schedule almost. And so anyhow, I knew that if the meeting was that day, that Sunday, I would see it on the back of the program. So I left the boys alone. which I wasn't, I don't know, maybe just like a room or two away from them. It's not like I had just walked away, but I just left them there for a tiny bit,

and I went over to the Foyer area to get the program. And when I did that, I heard a noise. And when I tried to tell this to Matt, I said, you know, I heard the noise, but the noise didn't scare me because I had just, I literally had, just reached the paper. So I had it in my hand, but I didn't have a chance to flip it over. And right at that moment, I heard this noise, and I thought, oh, someone's coming in, what would be like the front door of the sanctuary? Because the church, you could go in lots of different ways. And I thought, oh, someone has just been dropped off in the front of the church, and they're going to walk through

the sanctuary and come through those accordion doors. So I wasn't startled at all when I heard it. And then as I looked over, I could see the door start to shake. And like what was so weird about it was it reminded me if you've ever tried to open a door that was stuck. And you like almost take your shoulder and bang into it. Just like you know that the door works. It's just kind of an old door type of thing. So even when that happened, I wasn't scared because I thought, I just walked out the door, those doors in the morning, and I know the top of the doors can stick a little bit.

They're huge wooden doors, and they're heavy. So I didn't think anything of, so at this point hearing the noise, seeing and hearing someone hit it really hard repeatedly, and knowing you at the 4-H club, you have kids from third grade up through high school. So it could have been a younger kid kind of coming through or an elementary kid. So I actually reach over to open the door to help whoever's on the other side. Wasn't scared at all. And as I kind of fight with the door just a little bit and I jerked the door open, there was nobody there and complete silent there just for a second.

And I thought, you know, where is the person? What just happened? Because, again, I wasn't initially scared until I looked and I kind of stepped through into the sanctuary, and I realized there was nobody there. And I did it so quickly that someone, it's not like someone could have done it and ran out of the back of the church or done it and ducked under a pew or something like that. It just, once that hit me of, I know what I heard, I know what I saw, and there was nobody there, that's when like that motherly instinct, ticked in and I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to get to my kids. So I turned around and at this point

I was really, really scared. And I got to the boys and then someone from the 4-H club had actually come in the door where we would, and I knew at that point I couldn't leave because it happened. He had been with, and I just kind of frozen a little bit. And meeting happened, didn't hear anything, didn't see anything. But ever since then, I've- Wow, that's some story. when you were in there, you said the door was shaking, right? Yes. Yeah.

Now, the door that was shaking was the accordion door? Like 10-foot doors that separated the sanctuary from like a foyer fellowship hall kind of area. Okay. Now, when this thing was shaking, was it like a swaying or was like a vibrating like somebody was like shaking it violently? No, it was like if it wasn't swaying at all, the door was. was completely closed. And if you were on one side of it, like if you were on the sanctuary side, it was like you would have turned the handle or the knob. And I can't say for sure that

I saw the knob doing anything as much as like the top of the door. I could just, in my brain, I could just imagine someone just bumping it with their shoulder and just trying to get it open because you've seen like old wood doors that like if it's a really hot summer day they might swell a little bit or kind of stick a little bit that was kind of what it what it was doing but so it was the banging the bumping of it a little bit but like fast and repeatedly and not for long i mean just long enough like for a person to go oh there's someone at the door and they just can't get it open because it's sticking was what my brain said. Okay, but there, so there was definitely some kind of activity, uh, around that door in your church

that was unexplainable because, I mean, you did open the door. There was nobody on the other side. Yeah, and that's when I realized, whoa, something, something is off here. Because had I opened the door and a kid would have been standing there, I wouldn't have thought a thing of it. Not, I mean, not a thing. It was just a person trying to come through the door. But when you open the door and it's dead quiet on the other side, the lights were off. I mean, there was no activity by the pulpit. There was their sound. Wow.

So this happens to you. I mean, obviously you're shooking up. Right. What did you do after the meeting was over and things like that? I mean, did you ever tell anybody at the church what happened? Did you ever ask a question about that? You know, it's really strange because. Like I said, had we not had that meeting and had no one shown up, I would have been out of there immediately.

I mean, I went to get the boys. I wanted to leave. And that's when, you know, another had come in. So as soon as the meeting was over and then the whole time the meeting was going on, I felt. And so I got home, my husband up and I said, you know, I've got to tell you. And he was kind of like, well, what do you mean? And I eventually talked to the pastor about it. but I didn't do it immediately.

Maybe even a little longer. It might have been close to a year because that happened. We had moved here in two. Yeah, yeah. So maybe around a year or so. I said, you know. Well, and something to say about that, too. I've been like in our house now that, you know,

it's the great spring days where there's a breeze going through and you know how a door can slam or somebody like that. It wasn't anything like that. It wasn't a one-time. noise. It wasn't one knock. It wasn't a bump. Something like that. It wasn't just a noise that I heard.

Now, one thing I do remember... Knowing that it didn't scare me initially, that's what I keep coming back to. You know, it's not like you just heard a noise and jumped. See the... Well, imagine, weren't you the one who encouraged me to talk to the pastor about it? Yeah, I said, you know... Wonderful people.

We have the people in it, and you need to talk to the pastor. Which is what I did. Schedule some time. to go to it's not funny but when I said to him I said hey you know I was at church on this day you know that morning for the service and the afternoon for a meeting he was not not the slightest bit of anything and he said well that's just because there was a curse put on the church and I was stunned because I'd never heard any leader of faith might kind of be the best way to

describe it, ever give credibility to, and to know that he wasn't joking. He was serious. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, yeah, you know, many years ago, there was a group of women. It happened. I don't know if there was a agreement of some sort. I don't know all the details, but these few women, I thought that was weird. And I don't remember a whole lot more of the conversation because I know I was in a lot of shock about it, someone who I just, She was a wonderful woman, and another, I said, you know, have you heard anything about this? And those two women were even more about it, if that makes sense. And they were like, yeah, this is why we pray all through this church.

And they were doing like a kind of a prayer walk. It wasn't just walk through the church and around the church and every crevice and just all of that. And I like the answer. And unfortunately, it kind of ruined me going to that church, because I'm not the type of person to talk about this stuff. I mean, I don't go late when it comes to that. You're talking to me. You're being next to me.

I know, speaking of that needing me with her probably around maybe two weeks after the incident. I want to say it was a couple weeks. And once you can sit and you start looking at them, they take our youngest into the nursery. and sometimes I would leave him in there, and sometimes I would stay with him, or a lot of times he was in the service with us, I just knew, without a doubt,

that he was never going to be away from me in that church. Any entity of any sort, because I just thought if he is in our arms, and he was little enough to go down. And then that, you know, being in a small town, you want to go to church with your neighbors and, you know, you want to do those events together. But I just knew it came,

down to either I worship with our community and Matt was very supportive and said, you know, we will do whatever you want to do. And that's when we left the church. Wow. That's incredible. Matt, when you felt those, I guess, hands or you felt something tightening around your neck, did you ever happen to see any markings on your body after that? I was looking at you for, like, to be able to say to me, you know what, it's okay. You just thought you saw something or you thought you heard. Like, I guess I was looking for him to explain it away for me a little bit, but he couldn't because I knew what I heard.

He knew how he felt. I knew the fear of the feeling that I had. It happened. I just kept having this, I don't want to call it a vision, because I think that's the wrong word for it. But in my mind, I could just see something picking our baby up. Well, I know, because it sounds stupid. No, it doesn't.

Preston with you saying that, that was one of my struggles over the years, too. I couldn't understand how something like that could happen. I could not believe in the church. I just, I guess I had that naive assumption that it was protected because Christians were inside. and the thought that someone could really do some kind of a curse that it just did not, like, it didn't make sense to me. Yeah, I mean, if you think of it this way, and I'm going to, I'm going to start chombing in here because you guys are giving me so much ammo to talk about. But if you start thinking about it as not a church, I didn't know a church could be a curse kind of thing. But rather, if you think about the individual, how even though you're a Christian and your

faith is in Jesus Christ, you still get spiritually attacked. Just because you're a Christian and you're claiming Jesus Christ as your authority in your life, it doesn't mean that bad things stop happening to you. In fact, that's when things get vamp up because now there's actually a fight going on. before you were just going along with the flow of things, whatever, whatever, but once you start actually choosing a side and you're siding with Christ, now there's an enemy there that wants to vamp up its attacks on you as an individual. And so when you think of it on the micro level like that, it makes sense.

And then you expand your perspective to the macro level of a body of Christ, a church body coming together to worship their God. it's natural to think then that, yes, that would be a target for somebody who does not want this church to succeed in its mission. Does it make sense? Right, it does. I think back about that verse in the Bible that talks about, again, I had that naive thing of, well, he can't devour anyone here because, you know, we're all already protected. But in the years since then, I've learned that that's not always the case. Right. I mean, that's 1st Peter chapter 5 verse 8 is what you're referring to. And that's such a powerful verse. And it's a verse that I really think that many, and I'm not trying to bash Christians. All right. I'm really not. But I think that a lot of Christians gloss over certain things in their Bibles, whether it's because they don't understand it or it makes them feel uncomfortable.

and I think that's a verse that a lot of them kind of gloss over. They don't want to acknowledge the fact that their enemy is like a roaring line seeking to devour them. That's scary, you know? And there's this philosophy that I heard a couple of years ago that I really adopted in my own mind. And this guy, he said, if you don't understand something in the Bible that you say you believe in, then you're not supposed to just gloss over it and pass it up. and go to the next verse, you're supposed to dive into it. You're not supposed to make the verse fit around your mind, but rather your mind fit around the scripture verse. And so the

verse isn't broken. It's your mind and you need to fix your mind. And so when it comes to that stuff, even all the stuff we're talking about tonight, I think there's a lot. And like I said, I'm not trying to, you know, go after Christians or anything, but I think a lot of times, I think we have a case where Christians need to start waking up and realize that there is, you know, an actual spiritual warfare battle going on for their very souls. And they need to start, start arming themselves and go on the offensive with their walk with, you know, their God. You know, you said about earlier about how the church was cursed and you weren't, you weren't aware that a church could be cursed. And that that's news. for so many people. I'll tell you, now, I listen to, I don't know if Matt told you, but I mean, I'm a truck driver, you know, so I listen to tons of podcast during the day. I listen to tons of different interviews. And I've heard so many interviews. I think, I maybe exaggerate there, but I think I've listened to at least five interviews with somebody who was an ex-satanic priest

of some kind who willingly comes on to a show for an interview and talks about how, they actually go into churches. They actually focus on infiltrating Christian churches to break them up. And one of the things, there's the one guy I said there's three things that they will do to try to break up these churches. And the topic of money, so they're, they'll usually try to create some kind of money discrepancy in the church to break it up. Gossip, they'll start a gossip ring that will help break the church up or a sex scandal, usually including some kind of minor in the church, something that's really emotional. But he said those are three things that they will try to do to split up a church. And he said that the one guy I'm thinking of, he said that he's been,

he's done this over a hundred times of churches, over a hundred times, one person. So he went into these different churches. Pretending to be, to be somebody who was, who wanted to be involved in the church, only to try breaking it up. And he said he's broken up hundreds of churches, him personally. And so what I just said there is mind-blowing for so many people. People are going to say, how's that even possible? Well, here's the thing. There's satanic covens out there. And if there's a Satanic Covenant out there, they're naturally against what you believe, you know? And it's just natural. There's that gridlock, you know? Does that make sense?

It does. It does. Okay. It's scary to know that that's possible and that people do that. Because I think sometimes in churches, like cookie cutter perfect almost or, like I've heard it said so many times talking about, you know, sometimes people, they compare like a church to a hospital. And you've probably heard that before where, you know, waiting to like clean your life up to go to church is like waiting to get healthy before you go.

to the hospital. But I think a lot of times people in the church don't want to look at themselves as a hospital, but instead they want to look at themselves more as this pretty club or like a group of people who have things together. And I think it would be easy for someone to break that up, I guess. Yeah. And especially if there's an actual group of people out there with a mission to do so. Right. I'll tell you an example story. This is a story that I actually, it was actually told to me by somebody in college. I'll leave them, their name out of it. But when I was in college, we were sitting around talking and this one guy mentioned a story. And I believe he said it happened to his dad, but I'm not exactly sure. It's been a while since I heard this story. But he said that there was a pastor. I'll just say there was a pastor. I'm not sure if it was dad. There was a pastor of a church. And there was these two brothers that were coming to their church who were warlocks.

and this guy, the pastor of the church, didn't seem to have a problem with that as long as they weren't trying to create a problem. He wasn't going to kick somebody out of his church just because of their faith or their belief systems. If they're earnestly coming there to seek truth, he's okay with it. So I guess this happened maybe a few times. And at one point during the service, these two men stood up during the service and started walking around whispering into people's ears. And so he kicks him out of the church and that made him upset obviously. And because they, you know, they're up to no good and he saw that. So he kicks him out of the church.

Well, I guess maybe that week or a week later, I don't know how long it was. But he got a phone call. He was at the church. I think it was late at night, working on whatever. And he got a phone call on his church. office. And the other person on the other line said something like you need to get home to your family right away and made it sound real urgent. And then he, whoever was on the other end of the line hung up or something like that. He goes to get up out of his chair to go home. And he feels

like these hands all over his body, like holding him into his chair or at least like touching him all over his body. Like he knew there was something going on in the spiritual realm. And this is inside of his church. And so he sits there and just is praying because he doesn't want to go home with whatever's on him, you know. And he's praying. And I think he actually went into his car, drove around for a while trying to get this, whatever it was off. He finally, he finally goes home to find police at the house and his front window smashed in. And it turns out that these two brothers, one brother beat up the other brother. And he, with a baseball bat, and they went to this guy's house, this pastor's house, and tried making it

it look like he did it to the brother to try getting him put in jail. Oh, but he wasn't there because he was... Right. He wasn't there. So the plan was to get him at the house, and then when he's there, do this whole conflict or whatever to try getting him put in jail, but it didn't work because he was not there. And so, I mean, that story I just shared, I mean, just kind of shows you. the elements that people will go to when they don't want you to succeed to succeed in your mission

with whatever you're doing. Right. But yeah, I mean, that's just some things that, you know, I was thinking about when you were telling me that story. When you mentioned about the door, did you, I can't remember. Did you say the door was held shut? Like, it felt like it was being held shut. Stuck in some way. So like when I went to open the door, But again, I didn't think a whole lot of it because I had used the door that morning. I knew the door worked fine that morning, but that door could get stuck a little bit, just like an old house, like the top could get. But it was more stuck than that.

I mean, like, I had to use some, and then when I opened it, that's when there was nobody there on the other side. Okay. I'll tell you, like, there's so many different aspects of this story that you're sharing tonight that kind of just sparked these memories in my mind because when I was a kid, I grew up in a trailer park out in the middle of nowhere. I literally grew up between two cornfields. And when I was in this trailer park, I just remember there was this one girl who said that her trailer was haunted. And as a kid, you're like, oh, okay. So we go down to her trailer. And I think me and my buddy, we walk in and like, we're there for maybe, I don't know, a minute or two. I'm like, oh, nothing's

happening. I'm out of here. And I was probably scared anyways. And we walked out and she wasn't behind us. I guess she was doing something. And we closed the door behind us. And I remember we walked off her porch. And all of a sudden we hear her yelling, screaming, kicking the door. And we, I ran up on the, on the porch. And I just put my hand on the doorknob. And the door opens up. And I was like, oh, the door gets stuck and she's like, no, didn't you open it? I'm like, no, I didn't open it. And so I don't know what happened there, but something was holding that door shut for her that she couldn't leave. And as soon as I touched the door, it just opened up. Like she, I guess she had let go of the door and it just kind of opened up. And it's like, it's just kind of incredible how like you hear these different stories and

there's just little pieces that actually kind of relate to other people's stories. It seems like whatever's going on. It's like the same trick, you know? Right. Some kind of a similarity. Well, and for me, this was the first time that I had really heard the term spiritual warfare. And my first thought was like, well, I'm not smart enough to handle that. I mean, I'm a, I'm a mom and I go to church on Sundays and I raise my kids, but I can't, I can't do something like that, especially to the extent of what these women were, but I don't know, it has got me thinking about it ever since, and I find myself now being, I don't want to say a little more open to it, because that almost sounds wrong, but I don't dismiss it as quickly that if someone says, oh, my house is haunted, you know,

whereas before I probably wouldn't have thought too much about it, but now I'll normally say, well, have you asked your pastor to come and pray, or have you prayed, have you walked through it. Have you looked at things that maybe you've either been given or purchased? And I don't know with things. I've just, I've real pretty as what I had hoped. It would be like you said, about skipping verses in the Bible. Well, I don't know. That's not for me. And we have friends who are missionaries in Africa. And to hear now some of their stories, what they hear when they're over there bigger than what a... Yeah, absolutely. And what you just said about the whole things possibly attaching to something.

I just had a guy on the show earlier. It was episode 23. I titled the show, A Church's Baphomet. Do you know what a Baphomet is? Yeah. Okay. So this church, his parents,

his parents were in the ministry, and they had a unique ministry. And they were working with, their own pastor and pastor's wife. They were dealing with something. I can't remember the details. But through the process of this counseling and trying to work with the couple, the church,

his pastor and his wife, the pastor woke up one night with this just this word in his head, Baphomet. And he didn't understand where that was coming from. He didn't even know what a Baphomet was. And so he went to this guy's parents and told them about what he was. hearing this word Baphomet. And right away, his parents knew exactly what this was. They told him the pastor what it was. And they said, have you brought in anything to the church

that could be, you know, bringing this on to you or the church or whatever it was? And he couldn't think of anything. And so he's walking around the church and looking at different things and trying to figure out what could be it. And I guess when he first became the pastor of the church, or early on in his career there. Somebody had visited the church as a guest and she brought a gift. I think it was like a hand-drawn picture. And I think he said it was like a picture of Jesus on the cross. And so this pastor's looking at this picture of Jesus on the cross. And he's looking real close. He pulls the picture off the wall and he flips it upside down, I think. And there in Jesus's beard is a picture of a Baphomet that some people, he pulls him. And he flips it upside down. And there in Jesus's

beard is a picture of a Baphimet that somebody drew as like, you know how in pictures you can have two pictures and one. And if you look at a certain way, you'll see something. Right. Kind of like hidden object. Right. Well, that's what this was. And so he immediately, you know, told these people that he found it. He got rid of the picture. Like a week later, the church gets a letter in the mail from the local satanic coven. Now, the pastor didn't even bother opening the letter. He just, you know, threw it out. But for me, relating that back to you,

there's definitely things that can be attached to, you know, objects. And somehow, somehow that satanic coven knew that they found that picture then and threw it away because that week they sent that letter. And so I remember during the interview, he suggested that, you know, maybe it was some kind of portal where they were astro projecting into the church or something like that. But either way, yeah, objects can definitely have things attached to it. Not in a mean way, but I just would have thought, no, but once you go through it, you don't know with anything dark, you don't, I don't look at it, I don't read about it.

And if it can happen to me and our children and us as a family, and that's the only reason why I didn't want to scare anybody. You know, my part of the story. And, you know, Matt has shared. I don't think it's a coincidence that those things can happen. And their church. Churches need to be prayed for. Our church members and guests that are coming in, they just, we can't pray enough.

I totally agree with you. Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, brought the pastor. You know, after he told you that the church was cursed, And like you said, I mean, he was very just kind of matter of fact about it. Right. Do you know if he was actually doing anything himself for, you know, to better the church away from this curse? I mean, was he participating in these prayer walks?

Was he, do you know if he was doing anything actively pursuing getting rid of this curse? You know, I'm not, I'm not positive one way or another because, like I said, when I talk with a secretary and the other lady, they seem to be the two. big prayer warriors at the church. So I don't know if either he was joining them and praying or leaving it in their hands a little bit, like he did other work at the church. But I do know he had stepped in to help a family who was a member of the church who were having some issues at their house because I can remember a conversation about some experiences that they had and how he was going out to pray in their home.

their home, bless their home, that he was in some aspect, especially if he was either sensitive enough or supportive enough of this one particular family. I would hope that he did, but I don't know if he were. Okay. Yeah, I was just, I was curious because, I mean, if he wasn't active in pursuing this, I mean, it would make sense that the curse would continue if the leadership wouldn't even touch it. But, you know, I don't know. You did say that the church had this curse on before this pastor came to the church? Yes, yeah, that was my understanding.

It sounded like it was something that happened many years ago. And, I mean, I would even go something like 50 years ago. But I don't know. I mean, I didn't ask specifics. He didn't say, 50 years ago women did this. That was just kind of my assumption. as part of the conversation. I know that it was not anything that had just recently happened, because I think then he would have said, well, last year...

Okay. All right. When you were in this church and this whole thing happened, you heard a noise. What did the noise sound like? It was like something, not knocking. You're not a typical door knock. It was more of something because I just knew that someone several times ended the door. That's just, that's exactly what it sounded like. So it didn't, something did not scare me at all. And there had to be like a jiggling kind of a sound to where I knew that someone was, I don't know, if you just kind of close your eyes down, that it would make. Okay. You know, you mentioned earlier about how you were the, you were the first one there, right? There was nobody else in the church. There was no one

else besides me and our children. Okay. And at what point did people start showing up? Was it like right when it was time to be there? Yeah. Yeah. So the meeting started at two o'clock. We were probably there 130, 140, probably more like 140. And it had to have been really closer to like five till two. Because I remember the only reason I walked over to that area was because I thought, where is everybody? This meeting starts, a thing I do. So it was kind of a joke of, oh, great, the one time I'm on time, we were leaving meeting, where the meeting was that's what some of the members had started coming through. Now, hearing that makes me wonder, do people at that church make it a habit to not show up until it's actually time to be there so nobody's actually alone at that church?

Well, that's an interesting. Well, and knowing that the people that were there were not necessarily church members, with it being a local 4-H club meeting. Now, it does tend to be, church members, but anyone is welcome, even if you don't attend the church. Okay. After we had left, and we would... Yeah, kept quitting. And I want to say, now that you'd say that, too, I don't think either one of those ladies would be at the church by themselves.

That was, like, their rule, which is why the second one was often there when the secretary were saying this. There were two secretaries, one secretary left and never came back. You're right. I forgot about that. The two secretaries today. Even the pastor? Yes.

Yep, the pastor is now gone too. That's really interesting. You remember how long after? I want to say it was a couple years, a few years. Wow. That's quite an encounter you've had, and I guess it's definitely an eye-opening experience for you. Oh, it changed everything. And it's funny because the things that you do to protect yourself, you know, I think

like we can put ourselves in a situation more easily. You know, I may have, had we not had children, I probably would have stayed, but that, maybe that was just the mother's instinct. It was, I don't care if it's true. There was even the slight that was really, and even to this day, we do occasionally have to go back into the church building because, again, being in a small, cute hometown, we find the past is going to keep me. I'm not going to let some talk about I do.

And we've never told our children want them to be scared. Well, guys, I really appreciate you coming on here and sharing this stuff. I mean, it definitely opens up a door of conversation that isn't really held very often and is very uncomfortable to hold because nobody wants to talk about churches being cursed and the possibility of these kind of things happening within a church building. but the reality matter is it is just a building really it is i mean the bible talks about uh the body of christ and how uh christians coming together is the body but the church building is not the body of christ and uh it can it's just a building just like any other building and when it's empty it's empty you know so uh i mean i i i know that might you know upset some people for me to say that but uh it's just true. I mean, they're all built the same, you know. So, do you have any parting words before we get

out of here? The only thing that I can really think of is I just hope that other people, if they go through or they hear, or the first person besides Matt, that I have told, and that it's real. I think that's the other part. And if someone does options, and if you can't help them, because you said it's a very uncomfortable subject to talk about, I would say the first person that they should go to is their pastor or their church leader through this. God is with them. And like you said, it can tell you running from it doesn't change what happened, which I think is what I've done over the years.

I didn't want to go. Doesn't it say somewhere about, you know, the truth will, you've got to shine the light. And I piece of it. And I know Matt feels the same way with, you know, his story a little bit. It's a story. I wish we didn't have these things. Maybe God can use these words to reach someone else. Right.

And that we keep mean, evil out of the church, too. That's the other really big fig. Well, let me ask you, right before we get out of here, you're saying all this and just made me think, I want to just ask you this one question. now that you have told me this story. Now, you told Matt when it happened. Now, I'm the first one you've actually told outside of your marriage. How do you feel after telling this story?

One of the combination of things. I feel a little free. Like, I'm not secret anymore. And then a little weird, because that's not the right word, but this confirms. And I'll also feel like I need to learn a whole lot more. I need to, you know, like when I see those scriptures, okay, yes, I know it's true. Now I'm going to go to a scripture that makes me feel good about something.

Then I've got some growing to do. I have some learning to do. And I don't want us to stick our heads in the sand anymore. So maybe empowered. That might kind of be the word too. It's freeing and empowering more than anything. That's awesome. Setting here with you looking at you.

Yeah. You believe in God. you believe in Jesus. The other side. And how easily the world is then. Easily. And I kind of use our kids as, and I think that's where a little bit of the courage comes from, is you want to be good examples.

Right. You're absolutely right in that. And, you know, you said something earlier about how, you know, seeking help and going to your pastor and stuff. And, you know, even with that, I would say this. And it's because I speak from experience. I've talked to people that have felt this way. that they go to their pastor for help, and their pastor really doesn't help them very much.

And I want people to understand, don't hold it against your pastor that he didn't have the answer for you. A lot of times this kind of stuff is, and now you're talking to somebody who did go to Bible college. Now, I practically failed out of Bible colleges. I hated some of the classes they had me going to. I love the Bible classes, but when they had me go into these fine arts classes and medieval Volantial World History. I had no interest as an 19-year-old kid. But as somebody who did go to Bible college, these are topics that are not taught in your Bible classes. There is no preparation. I mean, there might be a little bit here and there, but unless you're sitting down with your

professors and actually talking to them about these kinds of things to learn about this, it's really not covered in the classes. So I want you to have some grace for your pastors, too, because they may not have the answers that that that you really actually need. But if you could go to your pastor, let them know what's happening and together you seek for answers, that's the ideal thing. So don't go to your pastor thinking he's going to have the answer. It's going to be like a light switch. He just flicks off for you. It could be a process. And he may not be totally sure. You might be the first person he's ever come in contact with has had a problem like this. And it'll be a learning experience for him as well. So, you know, don't go in there with high expectations thinking that,

you know, your pastor's going to turn into Jesus Christ himself and everything's going to be great, you know? I just said that because the church that we switched to, I did have one conversation with that pastor, and I said, you know, I have to ask this question, and I told him what happened, and he was very, and basically to say, you know, even though he told you that, I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in it. and instead you need to focus on. And I think that he didn't mean to be so dismissive of me as much as it was he saw a young woman who was scared. And I think he wanted to set my mind and ease a little bit. Right.

You know, in hindsight, what I wanted from him was him to tell me absolutely everything and why it happened and why it would never happen again. And he just wasn't capable of doing that. and I moved past it. I really did. But again, it doesn't change it. It doesn't keep it from entering your mind sometimes. Yeah, and that's the thing. I mean, the Bible and this whole thing, this theological realm,

I mean, it is so deep and very complex. And, I mean, you got the basics of the gospel and things like that. Because I know there's going to be Christians out there to hear me say that. And like, oh, but what I'm saying is there's so much to learn. And your pastor, he could be in the ministry for 40 years. And if he's not waking up every day trying to look for something new that he hasn't known before, then he's kind of dropping off a little bit because there's so many mysteries and there's so many things to learn about all this stuff. And the whole paranormal supernatural aspect of the Bible and what we deal with here is just a small fraction of what these.

pastors are actually trying to study and learn and teach other people, you know? So I don't know why I felt compelled to say that. I guess I'm just trying to stick up for the pastors because I know there's going to be people out there that, you know, do pursue talking to a pastor, and the pastor just may not have the answers. And that's okay. It really is. I don't have the answers. So forget that our pastors are just human. They went to school. They've had their training. They've learned so much that they can learn. They pray like we. do. They know a lot more than some of us do, but they're still human too. And I think sometimes we expect them to be the walking answering. You've got to know it all and tell me exactly how it is.

And that's not the case. So we're just trying to be helpful. I think, and I know I'm babbling on about this, but I do think that a lot of times people think that their pastor had, they may not mentally, you know, actually go there and say this to themselves, but just the idea of it. I feel like they treat their pastors like their pastor has the ability to translate the Bible from the original Hebrew and there's some kind of scholar. Most pastors have a bachelor's degree in pastoral ministry and they're given a church to preach every Sunday and lead. And that's the extent of their education, four years of Bible college. And the rest of their education comes on their own of being self-taught and studying themselves for the rest of their lives. And, you know,

know, most pastors don't have a doctorate in front of their name, and they can't say that they're a Bible scholar. There are some out there that are Bible scholars, and they literally can, you know, translate the Bible from its original writings. But most pastors do not have that ability. And I think a lot of times people think that their pastor is just some kind of person that has just infinite knowledge of the Bible. And it puts the pastor in a bad spot, too, because the pastor starts thinking, I can't say I don't know to these people because they need the answers. And it kind of creates this environment where the pastor feels this pressure of needing to be the guy all the time. And that's just not the case. I mean, they're human too, you know? Well, and I don't know about you, but I know sometimes when I do meet that person or you catch them on the radio or the TV or something, sometimes the way they talk, even if they do have all those.

I just may not understand them. You know, I just, you kind of lose touch with that a little bit. And I think, gosh, all I wanted was to know is it true or not? you know, or whatever they get it. Yeah, I totally get it. And I'm like, no, no, I'm good. Absolutely. I totally get that.

Well, listen, I really appreciate talking to you guys. I think you guys had some incredible experiences that will enlighten other people. And I really appreciate you coming on. Well, thanks for having us. It was a good experience. Yeah, thanks a lot, Tony. Absolutely. You guys take care, okay?

Okay, you too. Well, that's the show, everybody. I really hope you enjoyed it. And if you did enjoy it, please go ahead and give us a rating and review on your favorite podcatcher. That could be iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, tune in, pod bean. Doesn't matter to me what bean it is. I just care that you gave us a rating and review if you enjoyed the show. Also, subscribe to us if you haven't done so already. I hope everybody has a great week and I hope you enjoyed the show. I'll see you next week right here on The Confessionals. Thank you.