The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Blood Gang Member Exposes The HORRIFYING Conditions On Rikers Island | The Connect

Episode Date: February 10, 2024

Use CONNECT to get 55% off your first month at Scentbird https://sbird.co/3S97oZX This month I received... Sugar Leather by Une Nuit Nomade https://sbird.co/47N4JLh French Defense by Mind Games https://sbird.co/3SsriAC Cross River Gorilla by Sanctuary https://sbird.co/3u6mIyA Vidal Guzman was a troublemaker as a young kid in Harlem. His knack for stick-ups and robberies landed him in Rikers Island at the age of 16. When he went back at the age of 19 he was a member of the Bloods Gang. While he spent years in Rikers before serving his time in prison he was subject to inhumane conditions by not only the other inmates but by the faculty and the state of the facilities. Once he got out for good he became an organizer working to shut Rikers down for good. He’s here to tell us about his experience on the island and the SUCCESSFUL campaign he’s been a part of! Go Support Vidal! Organization: https://www.americaontrialinc.org/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/iamvidalguzman/?hl=en To donate to AOT visit: https://www.gofundme.com/f/AmericaOnTrialFundraiser/donate?ucdirect=1 00:00:00 - Surviving Rikers Island 00:07:34 - Criminal Upbringing and Family Influence 00:14:51 - Living in Washington Heights  00:22:40 - From the Hood Vikings to the Bloods 00:30:19 - The Beginning of Neighborhood Protection 00:37:56 - Growing Up in a Dangerous Neighborhood 00:45:39 - Introduction to Rikers Island 00:53:27 - The Rocking Spots and Gang Violence at Rikers Island 01:01:12 - Survival in the Violence of the Streets 01:09:25 - Surviving In Jail 01:16:46 - Facing Harassment and Trouble with the Law 01:24:30 - Life in the Hood and Joining the Bloods 01:32:11 - Bloods and Street Organization 01:40:12 - Discussing parole and probation violations 01:48:17 - The Phone Business in Prisons and its Dangers 01:56:00 - Violent Incidents on Rikers Island 02:04:06 - Life in Gangs and Solitary Confinement 02:12:08 - Losing Good Time and the Impact on Parole 02:19:56 - Violations and Dangers of Rikers Island 02:27:45 - Closing Rikers and the Impact 02:35:46 - Sponsorship Announcement Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Someone came to me on Rikers, you know, came to visit me and was like, yo, it's time for you to get on the set and let me know, like, this is a real lifestyle. This is not something to play with, right? So I didn't know what I was getting into until OG was like, hey, man, your young bucks, get ready for gladiator school. I had to either figure out who I was going to be, and was I going to be a sheep and be slaughtered, or I was going to be a wolf, and try to survive.

What's up, everybody? I'm here in New York City today interviewing Vidal Guzman. Vidal is a former blood gang member from Harlem who spent years on Rikers Island in and out of jail and then upstate in prison. He's here to tell us about the horrible conditions on Rikers Island, how he survived it, and how today he is fighting to get that jail closed down.

This is a wild story, you guys. We've talked to guards on Rikers before, but this will be the first time interviewing a former inmate on that infamous island. And of course, if you want to hear bonus content with Vidal, go over to patreon.com slash the Connect show. Without further ado, I give you Vidal Guzman right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell.

And I've seen somebody else that I knew and started hanging out with them. They closed the visiting floor down and told all of us to leave. I found out that he went into the bathroom. They started cutting him up. taking turns with his face. I woke up with nightmares. No matter how tough you are, like, you know,

there's a point of fear or a point where you just put the fear all in your fucking gut and just do what you need to do, right? That's when I see the lights behind me start to flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on. Then I parked the car, popped out, closed the door, and I started running.

And he pulls out a burner, shank. It's like six inches. And he passes it to me. And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I've made it out of that place alive. Vidal, thank you so much for being here, brother. Thank you for having me. And I appreciate you.

Of course. Now, tell us, before we get into your story, what's going on with Rikers now? What's the status of it being closed? Yeah, right now there's a law that exists, that Rikers Island has to be closed by 2027, and the population at least has to be by 3,000. And the population is at least 6,000 right now. Things jump into turnstile, shot lifting. Yeah.

So right now, even as old as it's happening, there are people who are dying on Rikers. Hang on. So, but by 2027, the whole, all of the Rikers jails need to be closed. Yeah, so the city is supposed to go to 12 to four jails. And there's already, there's already three existing jails close to the courtroom and just one new jail that's supposed to be built. But the city, that means that this city will be the biggest city in the country with the less populated people who are incarcerated. I see. And explain that too, because that's an interesting thing I didn't know before watching your story. Rikers,

the detention center, is not just the jails on the island. Yeah. It's a whole archipelago of jails. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. So what people, there are existing, facilities in Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens, but not Staten Island. So, majority of times, not even in Queens, Queens is not running right now, but let's say if someone gets booked example and they're 19 years old, they'll go to the Manhattan Detention Center. What happens is that someone would await into Rikers Island and has beds opened up, right? So, like, sometimes you might be waiting in the Manhattan Detention Center for a month, a month and a half, into they're ready to ship you to Rikers Island.

Right. So you're literally still at Rikers, but in Manhattan. I see. So you're part of the Rikers system, even though you're not on the island. Okay, gotcha. But the island, by 2027, that's a for sure thing. It's got to be closed. It is a city council member.

It's a city law that is supposed to be closed by 2027. And what happens is that the city will start getting, you know, like some issues would start happening, but city council is supposed to stay on top of that. And that has been multiple organizations directly impacted people like myself who've been and survived Rikers has been on top of that to make sure that, you know, city council and the city is following that Rikers Island should be and must be closed by 2027. But yeah. Is there any resistance to that by, you know, people that want to see more people incarcerated or, you know, a different political party that might want more people locked up.

Because, you know, right now there's been a pushback, right? A lot of pushback. There was the Giuliani era, you know, the wild 70s and 80s of New York when crime was out of control. When we did need more police, the Giuliani era came and of course, like anything American, way over did it, right? Too many people locked up, Rockefeller laws. All of those unjust, you know, draconian drug laws, right?

And then now it's kind of swung back to where you see, you know, huge rise. and shoplifting and petty crime. So I'm just curious, and all you hear about, like especially in the New York Post, all we hear about is how easy it is for people to get bail. Yeah. How easy it is for people to get out of jail. So do you foresee when 2027 does come around?

Do you think, yeah, do you think maybe it won't be closed? I think it will be closed, but first, when people get bailed out, that is the judge's power to release someone, right? Like the goal of the bail reform, it was once called the Kleepe Router speedy trial discovery law and bail reform, right? Those are the three issues that was keeping people on Rikers. We heard of people being on Rikers for 10 years awaiting trial. Can you imagine 10 years?

10 years and you're, you know, you're thinking that trial is going to start, let's say your trial was, you was trial ready, right? And what the DA or someone, a DA would tell the judge and say, you know what, we're not ready. for trial, I got a dentist appointment. It used to be like that, or we're not ready for trial. You know, like they will keep pushing the case into you have felt the wrath of Rikers Island and copped out yourself. That's right. It's a tactic.

It's always a tactic. Even, you know, I just seen the rapper D thing just come home and he explained about Rico and explains about like, you know, other people talking about like, people will keep you there. They will have you, you know, DAs. and people in power would keep you there until you experienced Rikers

and you're like I can't do this anymore I'm coping out what you said you have for me again talk to my lawyer and you know and they just cop out

yeah they put their hand up saying I'm done I can't take the conditions in here but in New York had a close to 98 percentage that someone will cut out because what happens

is that the DA can retain or hold evidence until your trial until trial actually starts so you don't even know what they actually have against you. So a lot of times who, you know, because I was in there, when I was in there when I was 16, 17, I seen kids take their case to trial and, you know, like, come back and

get life, right? And they thought, like, well, I thought they didn't have any evidence, you know, or, you know, I was innocent, right? I don't know how possible. How is that possible? That's called discovery. That seems like the most basic constitutional right. It is, but we didn't have discovery, right? Like, so majority of the time, DAs will give the evidence to the lawyer of the defendant at the end of the case, right? Oh, you know, when trial, let me correct that. When trial is booming, right? Is that a New York state law? It was.

That allows DAs to do that? It was at one point, yeah. Okay. So, you know, a lot of other states might do a similar, right? And then the bail reform, like, you know, like the bail issue was a real issue, right? Like, people have to put down their houses, you know, you know, when someone's talking, like, you're, bail can be 50,000, right? Who in our urban community has 50,000 to play with, right?

Sitting on the island for 10 years fighting your case, I mean, who's doing that? People that have murder cases? Yeah, some people who have murder cases. Did you see anybody sit on Rikers for years and then actually beat their case? Yeah, I actually did see someone beat their case. And we actually went to the same program called the Get Out, Stay Out, Stay Out program. he was in there. Him is,

I could talk a little briefly about him and his co-defenders got in this situation in Queens way they, you know, took a body, right? And like he didn't have any way to be a part of that, right? Like he was just around.

From my knowledge, that's what's said to me. And like this guy got his high school diploma, his GED, and, you know, he was in there for years. That's one of the guys

that I've seen that was in there eight to ten years. So think about that. A decade of your life is gone, but you just beat your case. So you were sitting there as an innocent man. Because when you go to trial and win, you are innocent. So therefore, you've been innocent this whole time. Yeah. And you're supposed to be presumed innocent, not the other way around. But it's, the reality is, it's the complete presumption of guilt. Yeah. But imagine me being 16,

being locked up with that person and then get re-incorated at 19 and seeing I'm still there. Yeah. That's scary. That's crazy. That is very scary. So let's talk about that because your story is wild. Your Dominican background? Yeah. Tell us about it. So I'm Dominican and Salvadorian and I'm West African.

So I grew up in the Dominican household. Your parents are from the island? Yeah, they're from the island. My mom's is like, you know, she, you remember these routes. She took the route to come in this country to Paul Reef. Mexico, Mexico stayed in Mexico for a while and then came to New York and said, I'm going to see what I'm going to try to do.

She looked for her American dream, right? And my mom's was a very hardworking woman. She survived the Trujillo, you know, a dictator Thrujillo who killed so many Haitians in Dominican Republic. And a lot of us still know that Dominicans and the Haitian problems is still ongoing now.

So when she came here, you know, most of our family, came here too, but they, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of, you know, land and ex-family, especially my, you know, my family when they came here, they was looking for opportunity and didn't get it, right? So what happens when you're trying to provide, right? You get in these jug-infested areas, you figure out how to meningo or how to figure out how to survive. Did your family? Did you have family from the Dominican who got evolved in the, in the crack game back in the 80s when it was booming? Heavy, 90s, yeah, like, you know, like, and a majority

all my uncles got deported too. So like literally it was for them, it was like, yo, weird, there's no opportunity. And when you're like hearing that, you grow up hearing stories of your uncle selling and Hunt's plane

and, you know, trying to make ends meet. Well, that was a real option for Dominican immigrants back then was they would hear on the island, hey, you can come work a corner. There's this thing called crack. You could just stand on a corner for a guy looking out

and it'll pay you $100 a day. Oh, yeah. And back in 1988, what is $100 in the Dominican Republic? That's like a six-month salary. A lot. Did any of them become like kingpins or junior kingpins? Did any of them have success? Or were they just street guys?

It's just street guys. But these guys, they were able to, my uncle was able to take care of themselves in DR. Right? Like me, positioned themselves to take care of their family, open businesses up. From the drug money they made in New York. Yeah. Congratulations. Good on them. I mean, they knew, I think when you get in that game, you know what's like, what's the end goal, right? Like, they knew they was going to get locked out. Right. Like, I think, you know, when I have conversations with my uncle's, right, they knew that, hey, man, we don't got an opportunity. This is what we got to do. And we're going to get probably locked up. You know, so it's like, well, let's do what we do. Yeah. So in the meantime, they were just sending money back.

But one of my uncles did get actually locked up and actually came back in with a different name and everything. Those are the good old days and you could do that. But he did that recently, right? Like, you know, like a couple years ago and, you know, he finally got caught up because somebody else snished on and reported that he was in the States. Yeah. So what about your father? Was he in the picture? No, my father wasn't in a picture.

I met my father when he was 18. he was like this Ecuadorian hardworking man. What do you mean you met your father when he was 18? I met him when he was 18. Like I didn't know when he was. When you were 18? Yeah, when I was 18. Okay.

I'm like, Dan, that'd be wild. So I met him when I was 18 and I was at that time trying to figure out, you know, like I had a stepfather and my stepfather was around that, you know, the drug space too, right? So I was just trying to figure out who was my real father. So I met my father at 18 years. old. I just came home from Rikers, right? And when I met him, you know, the story about

him was like he's this hardworking man. He works hard. So my mom's really fell in love with him because he was a hardworking man. But he knew there was a different lifestyle that my mom's and, you know, my uncles was living through, right? And he wasn't a part of that. You know, he had that opportunity to find that job

and work hard. But yeah, I met my pops when he was 18. I was raised by my stepfather in a Rochester, Farron, and Dominic. and household. And he was a part of like the Harlem out pole and being around those areas and understanding like, yeah, this is how I operate, right? Interesting. So it sounds like he was a somewhat of an influence in your criminal activity or your criminal upbringing, let's say. Somewhat, I think for me was my brother, right? Because I was more involved in my brother's life. My brother's 10 years older than me. He came home a couple years ago. He did 16 years. And he

he wasn't born here. He was basically like, you know, came here. And at that time, you know, I was, I was homeless, right? And, you know, at one moment for my mom's to get her life together, she was just trying to figure stuff out. Her coming to America, she, you know, that means she had to have me with her. And some days I will ask her like, yo, can we get some peace? She didn't have the money for that. You know, and, you know, we was living at other people's houses, you know, family house, getting mistreated. And when my brother moved, we was living in Washington Heights. He moved with us to Washington Heights and seen the lifestyle we used living. He did not like that. This guy, you know, my brother was a good soccer player. Like he had, you know, this ability to be someone. But then he's seen a drug life.

The DDPs was around that, you know, the DDP was around that space. And they became the DDP, what is it? The Minicans don't play. The Americans don't play. That became the Trinitarios. Yeah. So, yeah, when they all switched when they went into Rikers, facilities and stuff like that.

And then your brother became involved with, and he became a Trinitario. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end of his, you know, when he was incarcerated. Can you tell us about the Trinitarios? They're notorious. Yeah, they are. And I think the, when you think about their history

is where they got their name from the Patria, right? The Patriot was one of the first founders of Dominican Republic. So at that time, they were the founding fathers of Dominican Republic, you know, fighting against Haiti. And, you know, because at one time Haiti had Dominicans enslaved, right? So for Patriotia was, before it was used or Trinidadu's, Patriot was one of the, you know, that's what they call the founding fathers, right? And when for me, I didn't hear about the Trientadios or the Patriots until I got locked up and I was 16, right? Right. So is that true that the DDP became the Trinidados in Rikers?

Yeah, I mean, they all switched. It was a war. You know what I'm saying? Against two, a war against two. DDP and a three and thalios, right? What the story was is that, and this is my experience, what I kind of, you know, because I was hearing those stories and I was Dominican. was always in hearing about how, you know, the upcoming or what happened. So in Rikers Island, you know, when DDPs went into Rikers, they changed their name.

They're Patriots in Italy, right? And what happened was the story that was told to me was like, someone took the patria name out to the public and said, you know what? We're not jacking DDP with this. And all out war started happening. Between who, though? DDPs and the three Italios. Okay. And it sounds like the Trinitadio's won.

Oh, yeah. Because there's no DDP anymore. Oh, yeah. Now, do they, there was this brutal machete killing that everybody saw a couple of years ago. Uptown in the Bronx, you know. Last name as mine. Guzman. Yeah, real fucked up.

It was a mistaken identity. They chased this kid into a bodega and they just hacked him to death. And these are kids. These are not Americans. These are not Americans. These were Dominicans, like, from the island, didn't speak any English. Anyways, they all went away. But what is there, the Trinitarios, what is their presence today and how do they operate?

Are they involved with the uptown drug trade? Or is it just a prison operation? I mean, they are operated outside in the public, right? Like, you know, there have been a couple of RICO laws that, you know, RICO have been used in New York a lot. now, you know, since, and they're taking down local crews, right? So the RICO law has always been used against the three Italios and Washington Heights. And then after, you know, what happened to, you know, an individual named Guzman, you know, when he was killed, a lot of other things happened after that. The RICO law was used against them, right, to take down some of their leadership.

But yeah, they are not just a prison or jail operated, you know, group, but they, again. exist out in the public, right? Right. So, but do they take orders like the way the Mexican mafia actually is based inside of prison and they give orders to the street? Does the Trinistarios function the same way? Do orders start in Rikers and then go to the street? It varies, right?

Because the thing about it is even, and this is when I start talking about the bloods, right? Like the bloods, you know, there is leadership outside, but also is leadership inside. Right. So like every single gang might have leadership inside that might be the top caller. You know what I'm saying? And they might have leadership outside. Right. So, you know, it's similar to every gang, right? Like if they're a presence that exists, they always have leadership inside and outside, right? This episode is sponsored by Centberg. Centberg is a fragrance subscription that lets you choose a new designer fragrance every month for just $17. You don't have to invest a lot of money on designer fragrances. if you try scentbird. Sentbert offers affordable and flexible subscription plans. You can also skip or cancel your subscription at any time

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He was just living. He was like, he was a part of this gang, you know, when he was incautored. He was part of his gang. And I'm talking about at the end of his bid because in the beginning of his bid, he was sliced a couple times. You know, he was going through it. What do you get locked up for? He got locked up for attempt murder. Okay.

And I'll tell you a little bit or more about it because his attempt murder, the people, you know, the person that he tried to defend himself. against, right? Like someone, you know, my brother's a hustler, right? And in the Harlem area that we live at, it's not too many Dominicans. And he was out there selling like haze, right? We, you know, and nobody at that time, you know, this is early 2000s. The Dominicans had the haze. Yeah. You guys are the best weed. Nobody was selling haze where we was at 8th Avenue, 7th Avenue. You know, so for him, he was setting up shop, hooking people up in the neighborhood, you know, getting people to sell some haze. You know, he was getting people to hustle for him. But someone tried to rob him for his Jesus chain

and, you know, around the corner from us. And, you know, he fought the guy back, but he came back and, you know, he went back to our block and talked to somebody to get a gun. Because he's like, I can't be seen me selling drugs and somebody just tried to take my Jesus chain around the corner. So, you know, he's seen him and shot him.

My brother was on a run for weeks, even months. the detectives will come in our house every single day and harass us. You know, tell my mom's like, yo, you don't tell us where your son is at now. We're going to send you to Dominican Republic. You know, telling my pop, my stepfather at the time, harassing him, you know, like really to the point where this wasn't policing every single time. So while I was getting ready to go to school, like I will kind of hear that. Detectives were really coming to our apartment, be aggressive.

But this is another, my brother used to run out every time they used to knock on the door out the fire escape. Like we're in like the 1940s, like escaping out the back. You got to. Down the classic New York fire escape. But hear this out. The guy that he shot was also an active blood member. Okay. So for him, a lot of times.

things played in role, right? So he eventually gets locked up, and that's what he goes away for 16 years for? He gets locked up. He takes such a trial, think that he's going to beat the case because the guy's blood, and he's not going to snitch. I didn't go like that. Oh, the guy went and told? On the stand.

Oh, my God. Literally, on the stand. A blood gang member is testifying. On the stand. And to this day, he's still. blood. He's still out in the street. He's still blood. And like that's how New York has changed.

That guy would have been touched up. He couldn't live, you know, back in the 80s. He would be gone. But now they're letting him crazy. The thing about it, it's not, it's paperwork. You need the paperwork to prove something like that, right? If you're saying someone snitching without any paperwork, that person could have probably built so much status, gang status, that it's hard to challenge their position. You get what I'm saying?

So do you think high-level blood and Crip, Trinitario, whoever, high-level gang members are also cooperating? I don't know about that. I won't be able to answer that, but somebody knows something. So tell me then your brother goes away, takes it, blows trial, gets locked up, long bid. Yeah. I assume now you're the man of the house at a young, young age. My stepfather started selling. Like, you know, my stepfather was selling, my brother was selling, and it just

selling, was selling Hayes or crack? Uh-huh. Everything. And for me being, at that time, I was like 10 years old, 11 years old, and I was like seeing all that, right? And, you know, I was already active. I was being a watchout kid around my neighborhood. So I was already in that space with my older brother, right?

Like, I was always with him all the time and seeing him do things or, you know, I come in and see him, you know, like bagging up. You know, so I was already in that. that lifestyle seeing things, right? How did your stepfather, how did he hustle crack, like in the 2000s? Is he working off his phone or did they still have like a bodega spot? Bodega spot. He'll work at bodegas.

He'll work, you know, like even from, I think it was dangerous, even from the apartment. Like he, I think he was bugged out. And it was rough because my stepfather was also Army vet, right? Like he was discharged. And, you know, his father served in the Vietnam. So, like, it's like this, it's like my family had, you know, I tell you, my brother was a soccer player. You get what I'm saying. So, like, everybody has something going on from themselves and, like, circumstances change it.

And, like, you know, seeing my father, he was just trying to, like, he was just trying to provide, man. And, you know, when he, like, you know, my mom's was trying to move people away from the drug screaming at people. Stop this. Leave this all along. Because I get it, man. Like, you know, my mom's was, you know, going in and out seeing family members and the feds on Rikers. Like, she was. Yeah.

And mothers of incarcerated families, they know the system as much as like a trial lawyer that's been doing it 30 years. because they're the ones that know the rules going into visiting, and they're the ones who, you know, collaborate with lawyers, read paperwork, discovery paperwork. They really are like go through it almost as much as, you know, their loved ones who were locked up. Yeah. Now, how did you, why did you join the Bloods?

And tell us about the New York Bloods. What is going on here? That's our thing, man. That's in L.A. That's a Cali thing, Bloods and Crips. How do Bloods and Crips work in New York City? Yeah, before I even got into the Bloods, I was a part of a local crew called the Hood Vikings.

And like, I don't think New York is a lot different than the West Coast, right? Like, right now, we might operate how Chicago operate with local crews, right? Like, local crews, you know, they might not be connected to national organizations like the Bloods, Crips, GD. But they might have control from one block, right? Right. So I grew up where, you know, when I started stepping out into the streets more, you know, like being with friends, rivalry happens, right? Like simple things. You can come from school and home and get in a fight from a, getting in a fight with a different neighborhood, right? What people didn't understand, Harlem has so many gangs, right? And like, like local crews. And these kids was like 10 to 20 years old. So these. These crews might be bloods and crips, but, you know, this is what they call themselves.

Okay. So it might be, in New York, it might be different than California because they might be something called double jacking. So basically they might be a crew and they might be blood. So you could do that? You cannot do that, but they were. That's how New York was a lot different than how California is. Memorial Day weekend is almost here. And it's time to kick off Summer Right.

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Shop Total Wine and More in store or online. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly must be 21. So did your crew also have its own name and be part of the bloods? No, we wasn't. We was just her Vikings. This was like we were just one block radius between 145th, between 7th and 8th. But we started because, you know, like certain other neighborhoods would come into your neighborhood and try to violate, right?

And protecting ourselves, we knew we only had ourselves, right? Like we was from this block. We had to protect ourselves. And at that moment, we had blood, you know, blood leaders around us. But what people didn't understand is at the time, there was just a whole bunch of crews. So Drew Ham had the two deep mafia, polo grounds, had TBO, the best out. And like the best out was known for taking cops, cops' guns off their belts. Wow.

Literally. Yeah. And, you know, 40 wolves, right? I've heard of them. you know, say Nick, fuck shit up. That's the name of the crew. That's rock and roll. It sounds like when you actually go to Rikers and get locked up,

that's when you become more of this cohesive blood. You're under the blood umbrella. Am I right? No, so I didn't become blood until I was 19 years old. I was a part, I was, you know, blood was around me. But the thing about it is when I was 16, 17, like there's this switch that happened, right? Like a lot of local crews, individuals, when they get locked, they might join gangs, right? So I never joined the bloods until I came home when I was 18 years old.

I was almost recruited when I was 16 years old when someone came to me on Rikers, you know, came to visit me and was like, yo, it's time for you to get on the set. Really? Yeah. So what? And they wear red like West Coast Bloods and claim blood and call each other. up blood? Yeah, I mean the same kind of

Lego. When the bloods first came to the East Coast it was a it was came in the early 1990s

OG Mac and you're an United Blood Nation right like that was the umbrella that you know

a lot of sets when it was launching that was under right like OG Mac was one of the individuals

who was credited to bringing the blood to the East Coast was he from the West Coast

from the history that was said and this is the leadership of Blood's Day, he has some connections to the West Coast, and they gave him the green light to have his own set, and he took it to the East Coast. That was, this is, that conversation alone

is a conversation that a lot of people who've been in the blood culture has always spoke about that, right? So a lot of times, you know, gangs, you know, the Blood's incest, started increasing. But when a bloods first started in the 1990s and Rikers, you know, majority started because of the Latinos, right? Right. So there's Latino bloods.

No, no, no. I mean, obviously right now, but in the early 1990s, you had the nieetas and the Lion King's, right? They was controlling everything. What about on the streets today? What about Crips? Are there, is there a big Crip

organization in New York? There is. There's always bloods and crips, right? But because of New York's operation crew cut, it became very hard for people to flag, right? Or you will put an arrow on yourself. What people don't understand is that New York, the NYPD uses social media to watch people. So

they're basically breaking Fourth Amendment all the time. You know, you're not supposed to have this watching someone. And they're basically watching people waiting for them to actually do something. So for us, like, you don't see people flagging like that because they know, like, if I'm flagging, that means I'm putting a target on myself, right?

Are there gang enhancements that they can apply to you if you get caught doing a crime? Oh, yeah. I mean, even if you're a part of certain crew when they do RICO laws, they can take your whole neighborhood down. They can say, okay, you guys called yourselves,

fuck shit up. So we put a case on everybody involved with crack selling in fuck shit up. Yep. Literally. Just wait for someone to snitch. Does the paperwork?

Do you think the court, the judge is reading fuck shit up out loud? Yeah. You're they all. That's hilarious. But it's scary because like majority of the, you know,

I'm 33, I'm not to be 33 in two months. And majority of the people I grew up with was caught in RICO law. You know, because they were part of crews. Crews. Right.

Yeah. Okay. So tell us about your crew. and, you know, what led to your first case, going to records. Yeah, yeah. I mean, when I first, I got the name from one of my friends. Like, you know, I noticed that my neighborhood was having beef with other neighborhoods. And we was just like, coming home from school getting jumped.

We was like, yo, we got a do sign, man. We got to, you know, we got to walk together. We got to connect together. And for me, I took the name, you know, I went to middle school and high school, and I started recruiting other individuals to join the crew, right? Because that meant that I was able to go different places in Holland.

What people don't understand when you are active, when your neighborhood is an active, like, you know, gangs are operating. You got to know where to walk, where to not walk, right? So for me, like, when I started recruiting people, you know, we met people from Lincoln Projects,

Manhattanville. So I was able to go to all these housing complex or able to, you know, go to different neighborhoods. But for me, like, I think the first thing that I got into is robbing, right? Like, I was a robber. I was trying to figure out, you know, I was trying to provide for myself, right? Like, I started seeing people having more nicer stuff than me and seeing my mom struggle.

It was just hard, man. Like, you trying to tell her to buy you a Murmart jacket. Murmard jacket was very big. And people, you see people still wearing them. And I was like, Mom, you can give me a Murmard Jack? $500 just like half my rent. You know, and it was... And your stepdad wasn't making enough from crack sales?

It's not even that. He was, but at the end of the day, it was like, that coat was also a target. So, like, you'll have this Murmart jacket and get robbed a kill for it. Like, in New York, that is a huge thing. Like, this Murmard jacket, they call it the biggie season. And, like, you know, for a lot of times, people wore these jacket as a fashion to show people, yeah, I'm in, I'm in tune. I'm a part of this, you know. It's well like Nautica jackets were back in the 90s. There you go.

My buddy has a joke because he grew up in Brooklyn. He's a stand-up comic. He goes, back in my day, if you had an Nautica jacket and some kids saw you, well, you had an Nautica jacket. No, that's seriously. That's really it. So Mar-Mart jackets were what you could get stuck for. So you're packing a pistol now, and that's really common for street kids in New York. It's like you start out just being a jack boy.

You know, we was a bunch of kids just hanging out, but we started getting into trouble, right? like somebody might look at us different, right, and get in a fight, right? And you might get in a fight and just take something from them. That's robbery. Literally. Like, if you get, police grab you up and say, you just took sound from them, that's robbing. No matter what, it has phones any of that. Yeah, strong arm robbery, they call it.

So were you, did you move up to, like, being a jack boy, like, actually, like, robbing people at gunpoint or at knife point? Strong arm. You know, that was my thing. This doesn't sound very bad. It doesn't. I'm not a bad guy. It just sounds like you were, you know, it sounds like pretty run-of-the-mill hood shit. It sounds like stuff I used to, I mean, I would never like, you strong-arm rob people,

but like, you know, getting in fights and beefs, you know, it's kind of normal boy behavior. It was normal things, right? Like, and I think for me, like I, you know, these, but my story is like many different people, right? Like, it's like, it's a problem. You're a bully. Yeah, but I was the bad app one in my neighborhood. You know, and the more I started getting more into violence, you know, we started getting into beefs in other neighborhoods. So now you've organized a crew and you're beefing with different crews.

Oh yeah, now we're robbing them. You know what I'm saying? You know, that was like, and some of those beefs, like with my brother, when he had the situation and the guy snitched on him, he's from a housing complex right next us. and we will be beefing for years like shooting at each other like you get in shootouts Oh yeah like that If you've never been in that situation

Like it's a split second Where you got to decide Either you're gonna duck or are you running And what are you ducking behind So for me like Those shootouts was real And it was scary right and let me know, like, this is a real lifestyle.

This is not something to play with, right? So now you're not fighting with fists anymore. Oh, no. Like, if you get fist fights, you're lucky, right? But then it's like, you know, I had to carry guns. So they just come on your block and start shooting? It gets like that because we're literally a block away from each other. So this is like stories that a lot of different people in New York deal with, right?

You know, there's bloods and crips still around, but this is a local cruise who, like, are, having problems a block away from each other. Neighbors. Neighbors. Even with neighbors. Literally every single day, it will be a fight or, you know what I'm saying? Like shootouts. Did any of your crew get shot?

Nah, none of us. Yeah, you guys can't shoot for shit. Man, thank God. That keeps the murder rate down, shooting sideways. But they'll be like they'll shoot in the air and we'll like not run. Like we'll just say like, okay, you know, a lot of times I knew like, guys I was growing up, we were, you know, we were scared, right? Like, and, and, you know, when Operation Crew Cut started being more active, you know, like, I wanted, you know,

when I was 19 years old, I started being, you know, I was locked up again at 19 years old, that's when I exactly knew that the DA and the police was watching us more, right? Because for me, like, I already knew that they was watching us because of, you know, they throw us on the wall, and check to see if we ever had guns on us. And for me, like 15, 16, 17, 17, and 18 and 19 was like hectic years for me, being very young, being a youth in New York. Because at 15, 14 years old, our neighborhood was a hot spot. Right? So that means cops, DA, like these will, you know, detectives will jump on us, you know, throw us on a wall.

Undercovers? Undercover. And mind you, you know, when you're beefing with people, you're seeing people jump up. The first thing you're doing is running, right? Like out the car. And but now you're seeing their white, you're like, okay, this detectives. Let's just go on the wall, bro. And so there's no rights, though.

If they say get on the wall, you could be walking on from school. You got to get on the wall. There's no like probable cause that they need. Nope. And that's stop and frisk in New York. Stop and frisk. You know, when that happened, literally we would just get on a wall. So that means he's a grown men, you know, probably 200 pounds and 6-3 throwing us on the wall.

And I was like 5, 4, 120 pounds. How many times do you think lifetime you were made to get on the wall and be patted down? Can you even count them? In one week, I got thrown on the wall for like seven times. Oh, my God. Seven times. Did they find anything? No.

seven times and I was 15 years old and the way that they you know like And they're not nice about it I don't think They was not nice Literally they throw your shit on the floor And just get right back in a car And these are things like

If you ever seen the Central Park 5 Right like you've ever seen their documentary And you see them getting thrown on the wall That was still happening in us Early 2000s right Yeah they say 90% of stop and frisk stopping frisks result in nothing being found,

no drugs, no weapons. So tell us about your first bid. Tell us about how you caught that first case that sent you to Rikers. Yeah. Robbery case, you know, Rob Somati,

and I was 16 years old. I say this story all the time. I did not know Rikers existed for 16-year-olds. I wasn't expecting someone to slap me on the wrist. You know what I'm saying? Like I just didn't know what I was stepping into, right? And that was one of the issues that I wasn't prepared for. Like no one told us like, yo, this is how Rikers is.

When I got grabbed up by the 30th precinct. I was 16 years old. And when I got grabbed up, I remember, you know, like I was in a holding pen. So they keep you in a holding pen when it is time for a bus to come pick you up, right? And first of all, I was questioned without my attorney being present. You know, like they didn't even tell me like, do you want a lawyer, you know, here. You know, my parents didn't even know their rights, right? Like, they didn't even know that a lawyer can be present, right?

So do they come to your crib? They came in my crib. Did they have a warrant? They had a warrant. I was, they woke me up around like five o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And my pops was like, Bidal, come to the door, man. And I come to the door, you can see.

They had their vest on NYPD. And I'm just thinking to myself like, oh, okay, I'm probably just going to get questioned. Yeah. Because this, you know, like. Did you know what it was about? I didn't. Because you were doing a lot of robberies. Not just even a lot of robberies.

I was getting myself in a lot of things, right? like I was getting tickets for disorderly conduct or trespassing in front of my building. Like, that's how I was being harassed. And that's how when you are living in a red zone, that's what happens, right? You get harassed by police multiple times. So for me, like, I didn't know what exactly the case was about or who exactly was for. And that, ladies and gentlemen, that's when you know, when you have no idea what you're getting arrested for, that means you should probably be getting arrested because you're a criminal.

Because you know that, right? You talk to OGs in the system. They're like, I have no idea how many felonies I have. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But I was also 16 and, you know, and that's a very true way to know, like, I didn't know how I was in some shit. That's all I knew. Like, I was doing a lot.

And, you know, like, I was just doing a lot. So, you know, sometimes you can't keep count. I'm like, oh, did I do that or not? How do you get to Rikers, like logistically? You get arrested in a precinct in New York. Explain where you zigzag to until you get to. until you get to the island and how long does that take? So it usually is different for now, for youth,

when I was a youth, and when I was 16 years old, and I had two different experience at 16 and 19. When I was 16 years old, basically you get, you be in a holding pen and, you know, they have a bus out there. Oh, they drive you all the way down to Central, to downtown, so they can have you be processed and be, not just be processed,

but, you know, you're already processed, but also see the judge. Right. So you go from your precinct where you get arrested and then they take you downtown. And then how do they decide if you go to Rikers or not? The judge would decide that. Do they have enough evidence? What were you charged? How many charges did you have? And what was your bail amount?

Robberies. And my bail was $25,000. So I don't know what other things was, but I know it was robbery. Did you have to put up 10% of that? Mm-hmm. We had to put $2,500? Yeah, but. So you guys could make that? my mom's gonna make that.

And then on top of that, you also have to say where you got that money from, right? Tell us about that. Like they have to, you can't just bring in drug money. And then you put it 10% down, you know,

like bail bombsman wants to know who are you? Like, where you're getting its money from, especially if there's already some criminal. Yeah. Does everybody that can't make bail get sent to Rikers? Oh, yeah. Or, or if you can make bail, bail, can you still bail out of Rikers? Or is that where you go when you can't make bail and you're sitting waiting to fight your case?

So, so the only way you might not be able to make bail if you have like a probation or parole hold. Yeah. At that time, you know, I was tried as a adult, right? So basically North Carolina and New York was the two states that tried kids as adults. So what happens is that little time between you getting prepared to go. to Rikers, you know, they put the cuffs on you, on your legs, and you're on this bus, right? And, you know, all of us are youth, right? Because now they got to separate them. You got to bring some, all of us on the bus is youth, and they have some adults in the front where they have them already like caged, like caged in, right? Because then what people don't understand when you're on buses,

they might have the regular population in the back of it and might have maybe someone in a more smaller cube. So I didn't know what I was getting into until OG was like, hey man, y'all young bucks, get ready for gladiated school. Some of the kids laughed and I was just thinking to myself like, I don't know what I'm out to get myself into. That don't sound good. Oh, no, it does not.

So you're being charged as an adult, but they do separate the kids. So there's inconsistency right there. If he's an adult, he should be with the adults. but thank God you weren't with the adults because we've talked to, we know what happens with adults on Rikers, especially if you're gang banging.

How many, when you went to Rikers for the first time when you were 16, how many youths were incarcerated? No, just on Rikers in general. And yeah, how many of them were gang members? I assume a huge amount. Yeah.

So there were around, so we was in C-S704, C-Sumd-D-4, was a youth and it had also adults who were sentenced and coming back from court to,

but we had one section where I'll probably say it was probably like 800 kids probably a little bit more than that. Just in one cell block? No, just in different, just in different like NC74. So what happens

is it will be like one house, it'll be one upper, one main, and one lower. You get what I'm saying? No, what does that mean? So basically it means. three houses and one and one and one building.

You get what I'm saying? Right, because Rikers Island is a bunch of different buildings. Buildings. But then in top of that is also cell houses and also dormitory houses. Right. So basically like, so how Rikers work, sales are for more high classification individuals. So what happens is it's always an intake process. And majority of the youth are in.

dormitory. So dormitories is probably like 60 youth, but between those 60 youth, when I went in there, 40 of them was in some way in a gang. Wow. But then that's... And were you in a dorm when you first went there? Oh yeah. And mind you, I'm just a part of a local crew. I'm not even, I don't have no connection to the national organization or any national organizations. So how, what was your first introduction to the beefs there? Oh, man. I mean, I mean, Not even just a beef. My first introduction to Rikers was somebody put a spoon in my oatmeal. And somebody behind me when I went to, you know, I just picked it out.

I was like, oh, he's probably just a spoon. So somebody walked by your table and put a spoon in your oatmeal? No, no, the person who was giving out the food, like, because, you know, we lined up for getting food. I woke up because when I went into Rikers, it was already late. No more eating. So I woke up and I'm sleeping on the, you know, dormitory right next. someone three feet away that I don't even know and waking up the next morning for breakfast

and I'm like over here like this is a new lifestyle for me. I'm 16 and I get it and people like, yo, get online man, you want to eat? And you know, the guy that was, you know, young dude who was giving out the food, put a spoon in my oatmeal and I woke back and I was like, oh, he probably just left the

spoon there by mistake and a dude woke behind me. It was like, nah, bro. He disrespected you. Oh, that's like a signal. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, you know, trying to like, should have gave me the spoon or should have, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, oh, wow, for real? Yeah.

I didn't think none of it. Yeah. But that's a sign. That basically means you got to go fade. Yeah, I got to go fade. But mind you, I'm still new. So I don't want to get into that right now. I'm still trying to adjust where I'm at.

And like, maybe this dude got cruised with him. You know, like I'm not just going to pop off and then I'm just going to get jumped. You know what I'm saying? Like, I need to know who he has. here. Maybe he has correctual officer connect. I don't know. So, you know, he's, before I even decided, he's gone the next day. He'd get moved to regular population.

Now I hear he's going through it, right? Getting beat up, you know, like. But did you look like a punk, though? Because you didn't go immediately fight him? No. I think somebody told me that and I didn't look like a punk. It was just like, all of us was in a, we was all new. Some people was new. So we're still trying to figure.

out how to actually, um, how to actually, um, you know, live, how to actually survive Rikers. But how do you survive Rikers though? You've got a fight. So tell us about that. Tell us about the fighting. I think for me, when I, when I got into the fight, I was moved into one lower. And I learned that, you know, at that time, people, youth had something called the, the system, right? And the system basically meant that some people overseeing the, you know, the dorm, right? Like this is their dorm. They had, you know, so they make the rules, you know, they have a team under them. Maybe five people who can fight.

And, you know, and then under them was like something called the rocking spot. So these rocking spots were individuals who maybe might know somebody in a different complex. And they're like, now make sure he don't get touch. he's good. And then you got people who like call the dick ride, right? Like, so that means you're giving everything. Your sneakers, your pin, everything.

So if you're a dick ride, that means you're a punk. But it's not just even like... That means you're a victim. You're a victim, but you also at that time, like, I get... It's very hard because it's like, that shit existed, right?

Black people in New York are so funny. But the thing about it is, is like, what it is that, correct your offices would let that rock, right? Because they knew that they couldn't actually put their hands on you. Right, that's interesting. So, and I saw that in your, the other interview that you did.

Basically, there was a policy, a new policy when you went in that COs on Rikers couldn't put their hands on youth inmates. Yeah, detaining. So they couldn't pit their hands. That was like, because, you know, what happens is if you put your hand on a youth, they can report it back to their lawyer and say, hey, this guy hit me, or they can take it to a sick call and say, I got hurt. And you know what I'm saying? They could probably use it in their lawyers,

could probably use it as leverage in trial too. But hear this out in 2000, in the early 2006, because I was on Rikers 2007, and majority of the times when people reported injuries, it was never written down, right? Like, you know, there's multiple people, even an actor, even someone who was working there, talked about that you've reported injuries,

but that wasn't, it was more injuries that didn't get reported. Right. So even if I would have took this, let's say if a correctional officer would have put their hands on me, if I would have took it down to, you know, and got checked in, that means I put a target on my head. And from the CEO. Oh, yeah. And that is bad, right?

Was there retaliation from COs to detainees? Oh, yeah. Stuff like that can happen, right? Like, what happens is, like, the correctional officer would tell whoever has the house, like, yo, man, I need this to run like this. Wow. And if it doesn't run like this, you're going to get in trouble. Right.

So, okay, so because the COs can't directly touch the inmates or the detainees anymore, they just hire out whoever the shock call. of that unit is and say, you guys run it. So the inmates are literally running the asylum. Yeah, basically. Like the youth was basically,

like the head will come up to the CEO. What's going on? How's everything? She will know that he runs that house. Okay, so I explain. Or she or whoever. So the system goes, the, what do you call?

What's the name of the shot caller? Give us the tears of the system more time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the person who is the head that he will be like he'll basically it varies right so he'll be like the

he'll have the house right and that's how you guys called it he has the house yeah yeah he'll have the house yeah this is his dorm got this is his cell you know I'm saying and why was he did you have to be the most violent

or the most violent or have a reputation right so a lot of times also too it would be like monopoly for gangs what people don't understand and the youth

you know a lot of youth were getting involved right so like it was also when I mean monopoly I mean it's like

people would know where certain places if this house was blood 3ital or this house was Crip people would know right and like

you know for a lot of these young guys it was building their you know, their gang culture or building their reputation. So a lot of times when they was known as having a dorm and they was running shit, people outside were here of that, right?

So they could actually, if they ran their own house and built their stripes in jail, like once they got out to the streets, they were on. You know what I'm saying? They might get on or, you know, it also might be a survival.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I got to be the modes of violent because I don't want what I see what I tell people to do to happen to me. And a lot of times I've been in situations when people internally turn on the people who has the head, right? Because monopoly, when I mean monopoly

is like a certain gang, a leader might come to that house and say, you know what? I want this. Yeah, I got the motherfucking house. What you're going to do? And then basically that means either way, it can get really bad, right? So let's say if this guy is blood that came in and it's a 3-Ithalio house.

That means internally they just started a war. So the red light, basically the red light was NC-74. It will ring like really loud. You knew that the turtles, this was the, you know, police. The storm troopers, we called them. The big masks on, they're wearing like hockey gear. Oh, yeah. They're dressed like hockey goalies.

Oh, yeah. It was patting on. So you knew they was coming. Yeah. And that means when the red light goes off, that means there's funk. There's something going on somewhere. And does everybody have to get down? Like if you're, if the house is a blood house and a triny or, you know,

somebody else from a different gang comes in and they try to take the house, are you expected to get down? Some people want to enter in the, that won't enter in the space. So before you. So when you, so when you enter inside a dormitory cell, there's a gate. that, you know, it's a before you get in, right? So a lot of times, I'm seeing people not even come inside and say, no, I'm not going inside.

Yeah. Oh, because there's a... I'm standing right here. Right. Because I don't want to go get out because it's too crazy. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm going to be outnumbered. And then will the COs, will they... They'll have to call the sergeant and tell him like, yeah, we got a guy that I don't want to be here. Why? He is because of this gang. And they'll probably move him out.

Yeah. I'm sure. And so then will they move them out? Will they send you the hole? No, they'll send them to a different area. Wow. So that sounds pretty nice to them. It does. Because if you were where I was locked up at, they would just be like, I don't

give a fuck, get in there. They either put you in and if you refused, you get a hole shot. Yeah, I know. So you guys, it sounds like the inmates are really running it. So do you recall being in those fights, those big brawls? Oh, yeah. I mean, like those are. Okay, so the house you're in, you're getting ingratiated.

what house were you in? I was in one lower. I didn't last too long. Why? I didn't, because at the end of the day, like, it wasn't,

I wasn't going to survive. Me fighting in there, like, I wasn't a part of a gang, right? Like, I wasn't a part of the bloods, right?

And what a lot of times, that means that a majority of people didn't know who I was, too. So I wasn't just building up who I was as an individual.

you, I have to, like, people didn't know who I was, right? So what does that mean, though? Were you getting jumped? Yeah, getting jumped. Like, tell us, tell me about this. That means you're getting jumped. That means that you might not even get a fair fight with someone. You know, like, I think people forget, like.

So what would you do if you got jumped two on one? Oh, man, you got to just keep swinging and keep your corner to the back. Right, right. And just grab one person to start swinging. Did you ever, like, would you ever grab a weapon if they saw you coming, grab a piece of whatever? I just grab the TV and throw it at them. Yeah.

Literally. Like anything that can grab. You chairs that we can use anything. Because at that one moment is me against them. Right? And for me, like, I never lasted too long there. So I... So if you get jumped, they send you to a different...

Yeah, they send you to a different house. Yeah, they send you to a different house and stuff like that. Wow. So when I went through that, it was just like shocking, right? Like I was just in a whole shock and a moment. moment because it's different from you doing violence out in in the world right because you can just literally run away from beef or you know what I'm saying oh I don't want to beef right now like yeah you're locked up you got to deal with it there's no choice no choice and for me like I had to

either figure out who I was going to be right was I going to be a sheep and be slaughtered or I was going to be a wolf and try to survive and for me that's what I chose, right? And you chose to be a wolf. So did you ever get your own house? Did you ever run your own house? No. Actually, it was...

So did you have a ranking? Like, did you ever actually end up on your first shot when you're 16? I'm not talking about when you're 19. Did you ever actually join a gang? No, not in there. Or you stayed unaffiliated the whole time. I stayed unaffiliated. Wow.

But I got into a lot of fights. Yeah. Now, when you tell me about that. Yeah. You get in a fight until the CEO says enough. Yeah. And then do you get a whole shot or do they just send you back to your bunk? It varies, right?

Like not every fight get people get caught up, right? Like some fights you can in a dormitory, me and you might have a problem and wait to the CEO go and just get it on when the light turn off. And either we're going to be grown, you know, be grown kids, grown men or we're going to act like kids and just after the light turns on, keep swinging at each other. So it's like, you know, some individuals handle it like that. And that was the best way to, you know what? Let me just handle it like that. Let's do what we do. So would you remember, like, give us some examples of something that could just cause a fight?

Oh, man. Tom, like Tom slot, right? Some people got certain phone. Oh, phone time. Tell us about the phone politics. Yes, please. I think for me, I never, for me, the phone, I didn't ever know how deep of an issue it was until I was. until I was 16, right?

Like, I think for me, like, I never got into the controlling the phones until I was 19 years old. How does that work, though? Tell us. Yeah, so basically, example, so I was 19 and I was in C75. You know, this is where in the 19 to 24, you know, they still got GED high school fuss.

But when I was locked up 19 years old, we were a problem. Like, like we were a problem. Like when I say that is that when I was in a dormitory, who had the house? 19-year-olds? And these are grown men who were there, 40, 50, 35. Some already did bids.

And I remember my first time when it was going to get really bad. The Lankeen, St. T'Ollio, and the Bloods. the same dorm and I was like, think to myself like, I'm Dominican and I can be the middle man between all of this, right? And at that time, I was blood. So at that time, for me, it was like, how do we just shit all the heads who are in this side and figure shit out? We sat right in the dormitory and just sat down and say, how do we figure this phone's out, right? Like, we have way too much bloods. They love time slots. So the bloods had two phones. We had the three and Thalios have one phone. The Lion King's had another phone and we had a new true phone. So we

have five phones. So neutral phones as anyone can get on. But every single phones after can be used by anyone after a certain time. So after 9 o'clock or 8.30, you cannot use that phone. You know what I'm saying? So that is all people who are in the game. and culture time slot. Yeah. And so if you use somebody else's time slot, that's automatic. Oh, yeah, you gain it. Yeah, you gain it.

And dormitories are scary, right? Because you can literally be sleeping and somebody jump on top of you and start cutting you. Did that happen? I seen. Shit happens in the dorm. Do people get cut in the dorms? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Even the youths? Oh, yeah. Like, it gets real. Like, dormitories are more, for me, I think, is more, is more scarier than being in a cell, right? Because in a cell, you can sleep peacefully and you know when that cell open is like, I better prepare for something.

The dorms are just exposed. You're just exposed all the time. Oh, yeah, like you literally are three feet away from someone. Yeah. So when you're 16, how long are you waiting? How long are you fighting your case for? So I was finding my case for a year. I was going to different dorms.

I landed in a dorm that was more like a program, right? Like they were a way of trying to help you return back to society. So I met like some correctional officers who had some Black Panther Party backgrounds. So for me, like while I was awaiting there, it doesn't, I was waiting there for a year, but that doesn't mean I was not getting into fights. I was getting into fights on visiting floors too. people who was trying to build their reputation as the part of being the gang culture. Yeah.

That means anyone can be a target. Yeah. And one guy that was in the same, when I moved into this dorm, he was slowly going to be three intaglio. So he had to prove himself. You know what I'm saying? He turned, he was DDP at first and then turned three and therentadio. And then so did he test you? Oh, yeah, he did.

What happened was he was working C-75. before and he was working where they get the jumpsuit. So to see your loved ones, you get jumps to you get a gray one or a lime green one. The lime green one is like they know you're bringing shit in. Yeah I'm saying? And you need to keep this shit on. But I was getting ready to get a jumpsuit and a guy seen me. He was like, yo look who it is man. He started talking shit and I'm like, oh bro, come on man. And I'm looking around me, you know, mind you, people around me who are coming and see their loved ones are also heads of different houses, right? So now I got to prove myself.

I'm not a part of any gang. And like, I got to do something, right? So I got my jumpsuit, you know, and I was like, you know what? I got ready to see my mom's. And I told my mom's like, yo, Ma, you might not see me for a while. I might go to solitary confinement. And she said, why? I said, I might get in a fight when I go back in.

But just don't worry. I'll hold myself, I'm okay. And, you know, seeing my mom's crying, I was like, yo, I was so angry, like, literally boiling. And once I stepped in, he kept going on. But this time, so when you get your jumpsuit, you got to give him the jumpsuit back. So it has a gate open And there's a little slot A big slot that somebody can slide through

This dude slotted through that slot And started talking shit And I was like, no, I swung Because I don't got time for that You literally, I don't know what you was gonna do But then I beat him up And a clutch you beat him out Oh yeah, I had to see you put him on his pockets

I put him in I put him on the ground Oh man everybody around me was like Whoa Clean Clean What's your strategy for jail fighting? Like, do you just want to knock a guy as hard as you can right away, right? I mean, first, I mean, who am I fighting, right?

Like, I think that's, you know, there's some people who can really fight. And you're such a small guy. Oh, yeah. What was your strategy when bigger guys wanted to fade with you? Oh, man, you've got to swing. And if you got to be able to keep swinging, you lose, you lose. If you win, you win. I think one of the most important rules in jail is, like, as long as you don't eat and step down.

You know what I'm saying? Some people take ass weapons. Some people lose fights. What about like nutshots? Can you, can you fight dirty? You can do all of that. You can do that. You can do that.

Everything. There's no rules to that. So for me, like, when I got into that fight, the correctional office took me off and was like, nah, you're good. He didn't start to fight. This guy did. So they, I don't know what happened to him. But he was like, yo, man, why you hit me, man?

I was just trying to. Oh, he's being a bitch now. Yeah, yeah. Like, come on now. So I looked around me and the people who were also watching was heads of different houses. So now I'm like, okay, I'm pretty okay. So you got some stripes? Yeah, I got some stripes, right?

Now people are dipping me up and stuff like that. And they didn't send you to the hole for that? No, they didn't because I didn't start to fight. I was just defending myself. So the correctional officer seen that I was like, no, no, no, no. Did you ever, well, you were a way to go to trial? Did you ever go to the hole when you were young? You're like your first time?

So you got in all those fights? I didn't go, nope. Nope. You know, even if I would have had whole time, like basically solitary confinement time, there was so much people doing solitary confinement. They would have had to wait for me. Some people was waiting a year. Just to do their time in the hole.

Just to do 30 days. You don't know where you're taking. Like, mind you. This was everyone's story, right? And this was the scariest thing. You can go to commissary and spend $150. and then you go to solitary confinement and then the next day you got to give all that shit away. Oh my God.

That's scary. That's, yo, yeah, that's wild. And you just lost 150 bucks. It happened to so much people. Did you see people getting? What do you call them, dick rides? Did you see any of those guys getting their bags of commissary taken? Their bags, their sneakers.

But I also seen people like them actually step up and learn about the system and say, you know what? I'm just going wild. And they would move from dick rides up to what is the middle, you're not the head of the house, but what's the middle class? So like what happens is if someone's on this dick ride, they'll basically fight someone on the team, right? And maybe be on the team, right? So it's like, it's like the status, right? You know what I'm saying? You can actually move up.

You can always move up. And then if you're a real hard rock. Unless they really don't fucking like you. And I was going to ask people who were like, like. really tough, but they just didn't like them. And no matter how many times they have fights, they get jumped again and again. And it's like, that's when you knew

where you can't live there, right? Like, sometimes some people be like, I just had like three, four fights and I beat up three people. You just probably beat up the wrong people. Right. And now you just can't be there. Right. Yeah, and they just run you, literally run you off.

Jump you before you go to school. And jump you after you come out of school. Jump you on a dance. And you would see guys like that victims. Oh, man. And just, I mean, like, some people, like, And you feel bad for them. Oh, yeah.

I mean, like, look, when you talk about stories as, like, Khalip Browder's story, right? Like, his story is similar to a lot of people's stories. Right. He was having, like, he'll have a fight and then move to another dormitory. Had a fight there and then move to another dormitory. And he's just literally getting jumped everywhere he goes. Everywhere you go. And that was the part of, for me, like, not being a part of,

any major crew, or major gangs, right? So you had kind of a similar situation to Khalif Boutter. Oh, yeah. But the thing about it is with him, he was, you know, he was innocent, right? Like I was a stick up kid. You know, he was innocent, awaiting trial for a book bag for three and a half years. You know, the people went up in ranks because of his case, right? The DA, the Bronx DA was the judge.

at that time. Black woman. Yeah. And, you know, it was rough. He was his story, like, is so many different stories like. Yeah, that was a powerful documentary, but that's, so you're kind of,

you're like Khalif, but you're surviving a little better. Yeah, I was surviving because I didn't have the correctional officers on my back, right? Like, you know, like a lot of times you can be a target, right? you can, you know, tell, like,

bullshit or be an asshole to correct you officers. And people will know who you are. Like, correct your officers talk. They will put a target on your back. Yeah, was there any, you know, in adult prisons, everybody knows by now what Gladiator fights are. Did they have anything like that

in the youth houses on records? Oh, yeah, that happens. There's a, you know, because people forget, cameras started being put in in uh rikers island around like 2004 they started putting more cameras in 2005 and you know so there was blind spot as people call it right and those blind spot was big enough for people to knuckle it up and just and act like nothing happened right so those things they were places and fight clubs happen right like those those those are things that and fight club is

Tell us what fight, what is fight club? Basically, like, the fight club would be a lot different than people see on the movie, right? The fight club would be for survival, right? Like, the ability for people to go up in ranks or individually to just survive. Like, again, right, to make sure that my stuff don't get taken, you know, that I'll be able to call my family whenever I can, you know, that I... What is it? It's an organized... Yeah, it's an organized thing that someone in the, whoever owns the, whoever is the head controls, right?

Like, let's say they got a whole bunch of new people who came in and they want to, you know, they want these positions. They got to throw that fight club. Yeah. You know? And then. So you have multiple people fighting in fight club? Oh, man. Yes.

You even have people. I've seen one guy. I fight three guys. One fight he's done. Okay. All right. Next fight. Okay.

Next fight. All. I'm good. He went three for three for three. Wow. Yeah. And it's like, oh, this guy knows a duck. So it's like.

And C. A lot of times CEOs will let this happen knowingly. Oh, man, they will let this happen. And it's like the only way that we would know when to stop, if correct you always be like, hey, stop, what the fuck is y'all doing? Like, I got my sergeant coming and I don't need that shit. And then you're like, you know. It's only when they could get in trouble from their higher-ups that they stop anything. Yeah, like one time, like, you know, I got in a fight.

I lost that fight. I had a black eye and the guy the correctional officer was like, you okay? Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. Oh, you look okay. No, I don't look okay. You're saying I got a black eye. I got in a fight.

So it's like at that moment in time, you know, like, it was this moment where correctional officers did not play a role in any type of safety role. And even, you know, when I went to see with the same black eye, I went to go see my lawyer, and my lawyer was like, what the fuck is going on? And I had to call, like, was trying to move me out the dorm. I'm like, I don't need to be moved out the dorm. I'm good. No, no, no, no, no.

And I had to tell them anywhere you go, it's like this. So there's no escape. It doesn't matter if you go to a different dorm. No. It's like it changes. Their environment being 16 changes, right? Because you might be good for a month and a half with no fire. but then a whole bunch of new people get moved out and then new people come in uh-oh i was going to ask

you this before i just remembered how adults when sex offenders or people with bad paperwork come in obviously they're there are terrible things happen to them in adult prisons uh were there any kind of rules in the youth houses around people that would come in for like sex crimes or anything like that more when he was 19 okay right like i think when you was 19 that place When I was 19, I played a little bit more of a role, right? Like, we were here about people, you know, they're 16, right? Like, you know, 16, 17, 17, I see more of that one, 19, 20-year-olds, right? Yeah, yeah, where it seems a little bit more predatory.

Although a 16-year-old can abuse a little kid, you know? But I never heard of that story. Okay. If we, if it was, I probably... So it wasn't like somebody hit the house, a new house. a new kid hit the house, 16 year old, let's check his paperwork to make sure. It wasn't like that.

It wasn't like for the penitentiary. In New York prisons, it's more like if they want to see your paperwork, something's going on. Like you've got to be a part of a crew. You know what I'm saying? Or like if you're hanging out with this person, you want to see that paperwork, right?

Like if I'm meeting you and let's say we're hanging out, we're walking the yard, I want to see your paperwork. I want to know what you're in here for because I don't want to walk around you and know that you have some of these charges on you, right? Right. But your charges doesn't mean you're going to be targeted like it would in like the penitentiary.

I mean, more when you're 19. Right. Okay, so let's save it then. Okay, so then how does this play out? You're just going through hell for your first year in Rikers. Do you beat your case? Do you take it to the box? Do you cop out?

No, I got a six months and five-year probation. So six months of cases. So I got an opportunity to return back to society. What does that mean? You got sentenced to six months. So I got sentenced to time served six months. So whatever I already did was basically took away from a probation. So I came home to six months of cases and five-year probation.

I see. That's what they call. So, yeah. So I was 17 years old. I went to do cases. So cases is supposed to be this organization that helps you to return you back to society. excuse me and I was very successful in it

you know got a job and stuff like that what were you doing? I was working as I was working at this NY spoken word like nonprofit downtown

because that was my first you know when I came home that was my first experience to trying to get a job but that doesn't mean like problems that I was dealing with was still continuing right like you know the beefs

yeah because you're back in your neighborhood. But when I was 17, 18, that was like, problems started getting more harsh, right? How so? Cops will harass me. Like, I will be going to court every single week to be quotas. Like, your little pink tickets, like trespassing, like I was being harassed by police. So every single week I had to go to court to beat these little quotas or basically in New York there, like these tickets you get for trespassing or disloly conduct.

Like summons. Summons, yeah. So I would get all these summons and- But were you actively gang-banging in the street at this time? Or were you going straight? Oh, yeah, I was all the way active. Oh, okay. So you sort of deserved it.

They weren't just, you weren't just an innocent guy. That's what I'm trying to get to. Yeah, I wasn't an innocent guy, but the part that that was very hard to intake is that they use any tactic to of course basically to harass me right trespassing in front of my building just solely calmed up because I say hey

like what are you doing like you speaking you know things like that or you know so like these was regular you know cops right with the blue beat cops right and they will give quotas while the Ds would jump on

jump out on us right and imagine in a week you know example when I told you maybe you get stopped five times and then on top of that I pick up four summons. And how much is that? What kind of fines are you looking at between four summons?

Four summons would probably be like trespassing. And mind you, I was on probation. So when you're on probation, you are supposed to report. Any police contact. Yeah. And it's five times a week. You're getting broken. I couldn't.

And how much are you supposed to pay for these summons? Like, do they charge you money? If you lose. Oh, so you have to fight them. You have to fight them. And it was in the same building as my probation building. So I had to go downtown and show up in front of the clerk and, you know, in front of the individual and say, hey, I want to fight this. And it's said, oh, this has been dismissed.

And multiple times I'll do that. Or, like, you know, it's been times where, you know, I got picked up for having, you know, like, they. saying that I had a knife on me, right? Like, you know, I'll be with another neighborhood, right? And maybe they got into a fight and we all start running and I don't got nothing to do with it, right? And, you know, I'll run and the cops will start locking everyone up. And, you know, like, what happens is they'll pick up a knife and say, hey, this is your knife. That is not my knife. And I literally, that case itself, I had to go to court six times. And they was trying multiple times they wanted to give me community service and I told the judge, that's not my knife. And I'm not, and I'm not taking that.

It was so bad. The summons was so bad that I was a part of a lawsuit, you know, when I first came home in 2015 that I got payments of summons that was dismissed. So I was part of a lawsuit of individuals who, like a class action lawsuit. Yeah. Against people that were just harassed. harassed summons. So it's almost like if you're a young black guy, Latino guy from the hood that has that has spent time in the system that's on probation, that's hot in one of these, you call them red zones.

Red zones, yeah. Brownsville, parts of Harlem, right? These are gang, drug-infested neighborhoods. And you come home from Rikers, you like, you got to move or else you're fucked. They make it so hard for you. to reintegrate or you just got to go completely square. You got to... Imagine you coming home and then like seeing the third,

you know, seeing police calling your name on the speaker like, look who it is. He's home. You're just walking down the street mine in your business. Chilling in front of my block. Yeah. With a couple of friends, maybe getting some Popeyes. Yeah. Right, right. And it's, you know, it's like what Palestinians go through in the West Bank, right?

It's, you know, I have Israeli friends that are like, well, we don't kill that many of them over there. but it's not just about like outright murder. It's the daily harassment and humiliations. Oh, yeah. So you're going through these. But at the same time, look, you know, you were, you were kind of straying from what you were supposed to be doing.

Now, did you ever, did you ever violate an outright and get sent? Before you went back for your second crime, did you ever violate? That was a violation. Oh, that's the case. The second crime was a violation. That was the violation. But what happened was the more I started getting into that life, the more I started getting involved in the Bloods, right? When I first joined the Bloods was it, for me, like, I don't think people understand, like, joining the Bloods.

I was already a part of a local crew. You know, I was like telling people what to do. And then now you were a part of a set that you're new. You know what I'm saying? Did you have stripes when you went back to the block after your first. Rikers bid? Did you have stripes because you survive Rikers? Yeah, all the way.

And then on top of that, it's like there's this like arrow put on you, right? Like, yo, he just came home. You know, like he had a couple fights. You know, people know, people talk, right? And that was one of the issues that I knew that there was like this target behind my back. And not just me. It wasn't just me coming home. People we were beefing with was coming home too.

So, like, you know, they was getting that same like, oh, you know. insane. So it's literally the streets are like a mirror image of where you just came from in jail. Everybody. So why join the Bloods? Yeah. And what was the thought process behind that? And why, how did you start getting active with them?

Fellas. Yeah. I think before I started getting active with them, for me, it was like they was always around me. right like you know I felt like I was asked multiple times to be able to part

of the bloods and I felt like well it's maybe not the right time for me you know maybe it's not enough of my people joining and at one time we all

you know Dominicans no no no just like people from my neighborhood yeah like because we did have blood

people who was blood but you know we also are a family right like when I mean family we all hung out together ate each other's house

and like collectively we was like you know what I think it's time for us to be blood. And we decided to have the conversation with the homies, with the blood homies about us joining Bloods. Who are the Bloods?

East Coast Bloods. You want me to say they set? No, like where do they operate out of? Yeah, yeah. So they operated out of my neighborhood, right? You know, we had. So Harlem Bloods. Are these older guys?

Yeah, older guys around my brother's age. And these are these black African-Americans? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, I'm Dominican, but I grew up in a black neighborhood. Right.

So what I, what people don't know is that my neighborhood was basically black. It wasn't that much of Dominicans. You had to go a couple more blocks in the hill to see the Dominicans. So I was already being, you know, I was already an odd one. Right. I was Dominican. You can see I'm Dominican. And, you know, so me first joining the Bloods was a very different type of, um,

it was different, right? Because even my mom's, when she found out, blood was like, blood, you know, like, I thought that was like an African gang and stuff like that. But then when I started, like, when I started, you know, seeing how meetings was thrown, right? Like I was being, but the bloods was off. So let me tell you something why the blood East Coast is a lot different

than the West Coast because every member was from somewhere else, right? Different blocks. So it might, you know, like, you know how the West Coast, they might have a whole neighborhood that might be blood. Some of these blood sets might be members from all different neighborhoods are spread out to a Harlem, right? Yeah. So. What is a blood meeting like? Oh, man.

It was weird because it was like, it'll be like in this like, I don't know if they ran it out the spot for us to be at. But it would be like, you ever seen like those school tables? So it would literally be. be like we was at a school table and like you see all different bloods different age you could tell the difference right like we was young we was what do you mean they would rent out like commercial space in a building so hold a meeting yeah hold a meeting how many people are there 80 that means wow yeah like i my first time being introduced to the set i was a part of 80 people i was like oh and And this was a, this was, so, you know, they do borough, like borough meetings, right?

So the set from that borough would probably meet. But this time we have, we had all meetings. A whole New York Citywide meeting. Yeah. Yeah. In Harlem? Yeah. No, in the Bronx.

We had it right in the Bronx. Wow. We got a space in a Bronx. I'm picturing something out of the movie Warriors. Oh, yeah. You seen that? Yeah, it was literally like that. Wow.

So. So you're your, what do you discuss, who leads the meeting and what are you discussing in the meeting? It can be, you know, the head, whoever is, you know, the boss or whoever is the OG is leading the meetings. Also, they might have other people from different sets to explain conflicts that's going on. Because in the East Coast is, you know, there's different, not just set, but nations, right? United Blood Nations, Stone Nations, Hat Nation. You know, it's so many different nations, right? And like what people forget about the East Coast, yeah, like when they were in the East Coast,

they was first under umbrella called the United Blood Nation, right? So all different sets were basically launched under this. Oh, wow. And so, but at this particular meeting of all of the, all the blood members. But, but, but our leadership. had leadership in the UBN, right? Right, right. So we were here not just what's going on internally in our set,

but we were here was going on in other sets too. Meaning what? Internal problem, politics. Do you hear who got locked up or who is locked up? Yeah, who's locked up. Do anyone want to tip in to send money? Who, do anyone want to tip in to go see the big homie, stuff like that?

So those things happen. you guys talking about criminal activity? Or was it more like what you talked about, like politics? Yeah, yeah. But a lot of times when people don't understand, when you have set meetings,

that means something is happening, right? Like, you know, like either they, when I first joined, the books was supposed to be closed. Basically it meant that no sets in the East Coast was supposed to recruit accepting new members. And set new members into,

they're able to figure out what they have right now. You know what I'm saying? Like that was the rule. Yeah. And that was something that was been said for many years. Do the bloods, the organizations that are on the streets, is it just like the West Coast, they pay, they make their living slinging drugs.

Is that the same in New York? Varies. It's extortion. It can also be gun running. Gun running. You know, a lot of times. a lot of gun running it can be

tapping into already existing things that's happening in other different places so you might see other blood members be in Connecticut or Virginia you know and that's also

how certain sex grow right so that's all got to be based on drugs though usually it's crack cocaine mainly yeah what was your so it sounds fairly organized. If you guys are holding meetings, I can't believe that's real.

I mean, but you got to understand, like, the people who, and I won't really say their names. You don't have to say names, but I want to know, I want to know, like, details. But the people who were, um, people who were been blooded their whole, and since it came to the East Coast. So, like, the leadership we already had, were, like, already existing, had experienced a lot, been through a lot, know how to organize, know how to, you know how to, you know, go through, been through issues, right?

So now you've got this, you've gone from this crew to now being absorbed into this bigger gang organization. Yeah, yeah. So what, what do you, do you start out, like, putting in work for them? Is that how, do you do you do you just get to claim blood, but still stay on the corner? Yeah, it varies, right? Like, a lot of times people, it might be a recruitment, right?

Like, oh, we might have to turn this block blood. Right? Like, let's turn this block blood for whatever reason, right? Like the big homie might live on this block. You know what I'm saying? So we want to make sure that, you know, this guy's the brain. His guy is the one who's leading everything. We want to make sure that they're good, right? Or, you know, like, it been situations where, you know,

also on top of that, I didn't, after I'd turn blood, I didn't have that much time to even try to put in work. Like, I got locked up. Okay. And now that's, it's a lot different when you're like blood, right? And, you know, you're a part of bigger national organization, right? Because when you go to jail, now you get to say, I'm a blood. Yeah, yeah.

And that does something. Like, that's, blood is a brand. Yeah. It's a brand. And also you've got to learn, you got to, you have the ability to learn language, right? To be able to interact with each other without anyone else knowing. Okay. Yeah, talk about that a little bit.

Blood language. Blood language is always, it's created by OGs, right? Like the OGs will figure out blood language, send it out from, like literally there's to be someone from prison. Yeah. Who maybe has, you know, who's locked up, I'm not going to say too much time, who maybe has some time and they'll sit down and write out the lango and send it out to everyone or anyone who can get it to anyone hands that they're supposed to have. If he's trying to organize a hit, he'll write, he'll send an order from prison in the blood lingo. Yeah, but also that'll have to happen to visit. So you can't do that anymore where you're like sending letters and saying, hey, I need this guy out.

They'll read your mail. What you can do if someone can come see you and you tell them what they need to do. And they need to actually deliver that to whoever. and they need to push whatever they say. So you know how to speak blood language? Or you know how to decipher it? You can read it? In some way, in some way, every set has their own language to interact with each other.

But then we have a universal language, you know, how to enact with each other, right? So you always had ways of interacting with each other, knowing who is who. So, yeah, like, I did know the language. I had to read the, I had to read stuff. Like literally I had to read the books of it, the history of it. So they have they have history books on the bloods? Written on the set. The set itself are well so organized.

They had their set history, what they've kind of been through and stuff like that. And they pat, when you go to these meetings, they pass out that literature. You got to read it. You got to remember. If you don't, you get in a lot of fights. Wow. That's wild. Okay.

So tell us about, yeah, tell us about how you viability. violated your parole. And yeah, and now we'll get into the second stretch. Man, I got into beef. And, you know, I caught another robbery. I got into... What happened? Tell us about the robbery.

Man, we like details in the show. We mistaken someone for the wrong person. And, like, we thought that this guy was somebody who was beefing with. We beat him up. Found out that wasn't a guy. We got locked up. You know, people took stuff off him and stuff like that. And I was like, yo.

Now, for me, like, I knew I was my second time going to Rikers for robbery. So I knew I was going to. Were you charged with assault as well? For me, what were I hit with was with robbery. Robbery second. Okay. So you're, and when you are on parole for a crime and you get caught doing another crime, you get parole violation or you're charged with another crime, I should say.

usually in every case I know your parole is violated you got a parole violation and then you're automatically disqualified for bail. Yeah, most likely. Yeah. So I had another. So my bail was 25,000 again. And basically what happens when you violate probation. So you got a bail.

Yeah, I got a bail, but I can't bail out because I have a probation. The hold. Yeah, the hold. Yeah. So why even give me a bail option when I can't take it? Why even give me a number? So for me, like, I, um, so you got to see your probation officer. Um, and at that time, they wouldn't come see me on Rikers.

They had this new system that there, you can see them through TV. Yeah. And they can talk to you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So for me, like, I already knew I was going to get violated. Like, this guy was wasting my time. So I told the probation officer

I said man I don't even know why you wasting my time Keep bringing me down here I got so angry I don't know what happened And I told him I said yo suck my dick man Like fuck this shit Like I don't care about none of this shit no more Like It's my last should be my last time doing this

Like I was angry right Like I would learn later on that the guy I was trying to just give me a year And I got violated What happened was they was like You know what? because the judge heard about me telling my probation officer

that I told him suck my dick that I got another six months since. Damn. So now I had to do the year and a half, right? So I got violated. The year and a half is the parole violation time. The probation violation. Right, the probation violation, yeah.

And then on top of that, I also copped out to three and a half years. For the robbery, for the new robbery. Yeah, yeah. So for me, like, I was, I took the case almost to trial and until the DA actually gave me a lower, a lower number. Departure. Yeah, they was trying to give me five years. And I'm like, damn, five years on top of the year and a half running wild.

So basically meant, like, after I finished with one, I got the other one starts. Right. So for me, it was like, okay, we got... Oh, so that was going to be on consecutive, not concurrent? Yeah. Oh, no, that's very rare. Usually, like, well, in cases that I saw, if you had a parole violation or a probation violation and then a new crime and you took the new deal, they would usually just run the probation violation

concurrent, you know, they'll just blend it in. But now you're stacked. Yeah. That means you're fucked. that SMD was the reason, but I knew that I had to. So I copped out to three and a half, you know, when I was like, I took the three and a half and then also doing an year and a half, right? But I don't think people, if you ever been to trial, like, that's a scary moment, right?

You got to pick out people for your juror. Yeah. You know, your life is in people's hands, right? When you went back to Rikers, though, how long were you there fighting the case before you finally took the plea. You mean, you told my 19? Yeah, I'm talking about this time. Same.

I was there for like a year. And I didn't, yeah, like I was there for a year. I was in C75 and I was 19 years old still continue my TV. So what's the difference now? You're 19. You're a blood. Yeah. You're in a blood dorm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, do you try to take the house? Oh, no. Because it was a lot different than the youth, right? Because the youth. Oh, are you now in an adult facility? Oh, my goodness. Basically.

But that doesn't mean that they're 19 to 24 is like, you know, they're still keeping us together. So at that time, you know, I was in C-75 where they still had schooling, but they mixed the 19-year-olds with the older population. So we were in there, the older population. And, you know, usually people tell you this is not the, you're not in, you know, you're not in C74. There's no fighting. There's no, I got the cheer, I got the dorm, this is my house. It's none of that. You know, like, excuse me, but you slowly learn that there's some type of controlling that happens.

So when you went to the adult facility, Is that where you started notice more slashings and, you know, knife fighting and like big boy crime? Yeah, for me, I started noticing that. I think for me, like, I learned, you know, you always ask who you know. You bang in, bro, like, you know what I'm saying? And it was a lot different now that I'm stepping into the space. I'm saying, yeah, I'm a part of this set. And when they hear the set, they're like, oh, shit.

Like, we don't really hear your set coming through here a lot. So they're like, okay, you know, then everyone would know that I'm in the space. So when I landed in my first dorm, I was met, you know, I was met with just people, Bloods, who was there. They was like 19, 20 years old. My first interaction was like, was in that, not in that dorm was when I was moving. moved into a smaller dorm and I got in a fight with a C-74. Well, C-75, when we corrected, they keep the C-Symps in T-Main. Two-Mane was a place where mostly the Crips was at.

Mind you, you know, like, there could be a Cripset from Harlem, right? Yeah. Okay, so everything's blended together just like the crews are. Yeah, yeah, so, you know, the Crips got a Harlem Mafia Crips. Harlem Mafia Crips. Yeah, there is a live set that have been in Harlem for a very long time. But they are separated. Where I was at, there was a lot of Trinthalios and Bloods, right?

But me being Dominican, I was able to maneuver through a lot, right? And I was also able to be the middleman through a lot of situations. So was this stretch easier than before at 16 when you were not a few? affiliated? Somewhat. Like was there less, it sounds, I mean, were you assaulted less? Like, were you jumped less when you were 19? You can't jump of blood.

You can't do that. Oh, really? No, you can't. You can't. You cannot. One of the things about it is is that when you, you can literally cause a war in the building. And I've been in times when we beef with three and therentalios and everywhere is popping off.

at the same fucking time. All other dorms? At the same time. So me and you get in a fight. Everybody's getting a fight. So all the red lights are going off. Literally. That means people who are correctial officers

who are trying to leave cannot leave until this shit is shut down. So I've been in situations where... What happens when all the dorms are popping off? Do they have to come in and lock everybody down? Do they have to spray pepper spray? What's the reaction from the COs? So the thing about...

it is someone will write so you know the information will be delivered for someone who's getting Medicaid right like getting the pills and stuff like that that one person has to write a note for or whoever is sending a hit out you'll send this out to everyone is on site everybody has to pop out pop off at the same damn time wow and he's the one who sends that spreads it to everywhere else because he want to make sure if we're going to do it we're going to do it all at the same time. So if you're, so wow, so the bloods, it sounds like the bloods have the strongest

set, the strongest crew, the strongest presence on Rikers. Am I wrong? I mean, it varies, right? Because every, every building is different, right? And like, just because you might have the strongest set, you might have other people who might be able to fight.

But, but, but, but, but, but, yeah, I mean, if you, it sounds like they protect their own. Oh, yeah, definitely. If you touch a blood, then that means, everybody is going to get fucked up. Oh yeah. And like that, stuff like that happened. So there is some value in being a gang member.

It sounds like it's primarily protection when you end up getting locked up, right? Yeah. I mean, for me, like it wasn't protection. I was a part of a crew, a family. But then when you're getting that space and you're being outnumbered shit. You're just say, I'm a blood. So if you guys want to all go to war, do it. But even a lot of times for me,

I was, you know, I was very active. I was never like, oh, I'm blood. No, I was myself, but also I'm blood. You get what I'm saying? And, you know, the loaner started doing my bids, you know, being controlling phones was a very important. Like, it happens a lot, even in prisons, right? Do people make money out of the phone business? Oh, they can.

Yeah, they can. Like, and, you know, some people don't got calls, right? Some people don't got no one in a call. They sell you their stuff for suits and stuff like that. Right. So like and then upstate, you know, like some people don't turn on the phones to someone. they have to sell a three way to call somebody, 15 minutes. So those things happen, you know, like, but the phones was what was getting me in trouble.

the young guns you know that is a crew from the Bronx had control some phones Lion Kings might have control

of some phones but for me I never wanted to get on the blood phones upstate I wanted to get on the other phone the Lion King phone

I wanted to get on that Why? Because I didn't want no one to think I'm surviving because I'm blood I'm surviving because of me

you know what I'm saying and the thing about it is like I always felt like I wanted to get on everyone else's phone. 3. Thalia phone. Just to be a problem.

You're doing it intentionally. Oh yeah, but I'm also doing it to show people like I'm not, if I'm, if I'm this, you're also, you want to mess with me. Like, you're going to also deal with someone who could hold them on, right? But did your crew, did the Bloods tell you to stop doing that? I mean, nah, they can't. Like, you know what I'm saying? They're like they're amused.

Like, you know, when I come in a dorm, they're like, they be like, yo, there's a slot open. You want that slide? And I'm like, nah, bro, I'm good. And I asked to see if I can get on the other phone, the Lion King phone and stuff like that. Yo, what's up with this, bro? Like, let me get a slot with you, bro.

And, you know, the Lion King's will say, yo, man, like, you know, the blood's got a slot. And I'll say, nah, I want to slot with y'all. You know what I'm saying? And not in a disrespectful way or it just for me, like I just didn't never want it something to be handed away. It's a way to show your courage. Yeah, I mean, courage, yeah.

You're not, you're your own man. Like, you can stand and you're ready to fight. Oh, yeah. Did you have to fight because you did that ever? Like you're taking other people's phones? Yeah, yeah, you do. You get into fights, you know, you get in those situations where you have to fight for those phones. Or sometimes, you know, a lot of times people learn how to bid, right?

Like, I think, you got to, you got to, bidding is also known when to move, right? Like when to do certain things, right? Sometimes I've seen people come in a dorm and try to, you know, like, most of they weigh in and get jumped because you didn't see what exactly was going on in his dorm, right? Like, you could be a new true and the whole dorm can jump you, 3,000thalios, bloods, and kings. You're like, what the fuck just happening now? Have you seen somebody get jumped by all different sets?

Oh, yeah, it gets like that. So they're kicking him, stomping them, punch them. them. It gets like that. One of the things about it is, is that I've seen so many stories of even people being of, like being

blood, right? I remember this one guy when I was in green correctional facility, you know, they went to the box, a solitary confinement, they beat up this crib, beat him a badly. Yeah. And I found out, you know, he found out that the people he was beefing with outside got a kite.

Somebody told them that they, you know, the people that he's beefing, they're going to go kill his family. Oh, shit. And that's what happened. Literally, he was trying to get on the phone because he heard from internally that the people who used Befoam

was going to send that head out to kill his family. Mind you, he was saying multiple times without snitching, like, yo, I need to get on the phone. This is an emergency. Yeah. And he took his life after he found out his family was killed, man. Oh.

And he was blood, you know, and it was just so hurtful to hear stories like that. So they killed his family? Killed his family, man. And this was someone who was beefing the Crips? Or who, yeah, just somebody he was just beefing with.

And like, it's rough. That's terrible. I even, one time, and going back into Rikers, you know, when you're waiting for the visiting floor

and C75, there's a place where you can also sit at, but it's dangerous, so it's away from corrects you officer. And a lot of times some people beef is very serious, right?

Like, they might have some beef that that will, you know, follow them from the streets to prison. Yeah. And mind you, in this visiting, I remember this day, like, you know, usually introduce yourself to all the bloods around, you know,

and if you know someone, you might hang out with them, right? Like, particularly this one guy, and this is, He had problems with the crypts from his neighborhood. And I said, what's up to him? You know, the guy that something's about to happen to. I didn't know this and none of us knew it. I left out the place, you know, where I was at because it was a part of the visiting side.

And seeing somebody else that I knew and started hanging out with them. They closed the visiting floor down and told all of us to leave. I didn't know why. Mind you, I said hi to someone, you know, say hi to another blood. I found out that there's a, like, he went into the bathroom. They started cutting him up. Crips taking turns with his face. They kill him?

No, he was literally, his face was kind of hanging. And it was just like, literally this, I said hi. And I'm like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, what's going on? And I say hi. You know, I said my what's up to have. everyone. I was literally there.

And they were doing that to him in the visiting room bathroom? In the visiting room. Like, basically there's a part in C-75 that they had a bathroom open. I don't think it's open anymore. But it was also one side that is like far, it's like kind of far away from everyone else. It's like, it's dangerous to be there. You know what I'm saying?

It's dangerous. It's just, it's a blind spot? It's a very blind spot. Wow. Wow. And that's crazy. It is. And it's so, it was so bad that he needed surgery to be able to get back to regular.

So his face up. Yeah. And but here the, imagine the story you hear. Like when you go back to your, because at that time, I was back in the cell's cell area and I was in an assa with all the Lion King's was on. So I was cool with the Lion Kings. It was cool. And I'm hearing that. I'm like, yo, this is rough.

Yeah. You know, and like... So people really get buck 50. That's not hype. People really get slashed at Rikers. Did that happen at all elsewhere while you were that second stretch? Did anybody else get cut? For me, they did not around me, right?

Like a lot of the times, like, if you're buck 50 in someone right now, that means there's true war. There's no coming out of this. You're not just buck fitting anyone, right? Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? That means you're like, not you deserved it. There's real, real shit that's happening behind that.

Did, if somebody gets slashed in a different dorm, do you hear about it? Oh, yeah, we hear about it. If it's someone who's in a blood and it's gang wise. Yeah. Like, if I was, example, a Lion King would have sliced the blood and I was in a Lion King house. Oh, man. Oh, damn. And I ate with them, you know what I'm saying?

So, like, I got into that. I got into the cell area because I got in a fight with a Crips. And the bloods didn't help me out. Wow. And mind you, this guy was like 6-5. And you got in a fight with him? How did you fight the 6-5 guy when you're 5-5, whatever you are? No offense.

I'm like 5-9. No, I just swung. I knew I was going to lose. But at the same time, I'm not going to let someone. Even I'm blood, this is why it's, I differed it, right? Like, just of my experience and just people I grew up around, like, I myself, but I'm blood, right? And, like, I just felt disrespected, right? Like, you know, at that one moment where we all knew he was Crip, right?

Because he was going into Maine. And, you know, Bloods are saying all types of slang and stuff like, that shit is stupid. You know, like, I felt like people was very comfortable. like comfortable where they are and for me I didn't have my sneakers on and this is why you should always have your sneakers I have fucking slippers on and for me like

I couldn't be in that dorm and let this crypto just say you suck my dick Pussies I and I'm over here like nobody's doing anything and I'm like fucking I'm a swing if I miss boom swung he got me I was like I swung

you know what I'm saying and I just seen everyone else and they put me on the wall and that was it you know like But somebody had to do it he was punking the whole the whole room out Yeah

Yeah Somebody like And and what To end that kind of story off There was bloods walking around Not doing anything And I was like And this is not

I'm not saying all bloods I'm just saying particularly And for me like I was on the wall I didn't I didn't have a dislike for the bloods. I had a dislike for the people who were around me and didn't do not. Did you, so, so you're going through, this is Rikers. Like we tell these stories to paint how stressful being in that kind of environment is.

Like you're, it rarely a day goes by where you're not, your senses aren't heightened and you're in a fight or flight mode. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you were talking about how they, they don't even have air conditioning on the island. Certain places of the island that you didn't have air condition. When I was in C-75, in certain cells they were in, they would actually bring out this big, strong fan to blow, so that we call it a chair. So if it's in August, the middle of August, like it's- fucking horrible. It's burning up. Oh, yeah, it's horrible. So what do you do? Do you take you strip naked? Do you get your clothes off?

To your box? Because you can't strip naked because it's correct your officer who might be females. Oh, right. And if they see you naked. it, oh man, that's your ass. Yeah. So like a lot of times when people try to cool down, you get on the floor. The only thing that was cool was the floor, and that's disgusting. Because Rikers Island has roaches, rats. Yeah.

Because it's old. It's a 160-year-old facility. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's falling apart. So I landed in the cells, and I was like, it was a little bit more privacy, right? Because I was able to have my own cell.

I was able to lock out. But, you know, it was shit still following me. Like I said, going back into like, you know, being in a Lion King house, you know, eating with Lion King's and stuff like that, finding out was a Crip in the house, I had to get him out. Yeah. So I went to the cafeteria to go eat when the blood sat, you know, all the Bloods is with me. They were like, yo, yo, you got him out, man. He said, you know, this motherfucker said he Crip. And he sat down right next, you know, they had him come and sit down right next to me.

to say that he's Crip And I was like Oh shit He's like yeah I'm Cripped And I was like I went ASAP Because the night before I told the Lion King's like Yo we might have a Crip in the house

And their antennas is already up Like we gotta get him out of you Okay so what happened I told the Lion Kings And we waited To it was to you know Tapped them Poo pooh boom

And you know, some people don't stop, right? Like, they don't stop fighting, right? And cool, that's cool. I just did my, I needed to do, get him out of you. Basically, you know, they got him out of there. They had us, you know, what happens is I ran back, you know, didn't get caught, none of that, no injuries on my hands.

So what they do is correct your office would check your hands to make sure you're going to have injuries. Gotcha. What I wouldn't not, what I would know now is that because I put the works in, Now the Bloods are seeing that They're like, yo, blood, you need to move on this side You know, come over here The Bloods move me

From my side to the other side Told the Bubble, the CEO, he want to come over here And they have the power like that They can tell the CEO We want him over here And so you can actually get moved That's wild And you know, being introduced to the Bloods

Like You know, like A lot of things won't happen Like you know I'm saying Like certain dorms or certain cells shit won't happen, right? Like some things won't happen, right? Like, some people are just comfortable

and they're okay, right? Like, violence don't always happen. So for me, like, being on Rikers, that was my last full, like, wild-out moment, right? Yeah. And for me, like, the bloods, it was times when, you know, like, yo, what's going on with the time's like,

yo, blood, you get on his phone. and I'll be like, no, I want to get in the, not blood. Yeah, they would just calm you down and be like, none of that on this. Yeah. No, because at the time who would calm me down, this guy got life and he's a big homie. Like, you know what I'm saying? He would tell me, look, bro, I know you're full of energy, but we don't need that. Right.

No, they got real problems. Yeah, I notice whenever you're around, when you're locked up, whenever you're around guys that are facing life or huge numbers, it's usually calmer because they don't have time for that petty. phone politics. Like, you know, I'm looking at the rest of my life in prison. Yeah. So when you finally copped out, you took a plea, was going to prison like a relief?

Oh, no. Oh, shit. No. Green correctional facility is known as Rikers, too. The reason why I say that, because majority of the youth who go to green correction facility are 16 years old and, you know, 16 years old facing seven years. Yeah. Can you imagine that? 16 years old, who's 16, like, doing seven years. So you had 16 year olds in adult prison? Yeah. So Green Crisual facility at one point had all youth and I was like fights everywhere. So why were you there as a 19 year old? I mean, because.

20 year old. Yeah, because that's where all the youth goes in New York. So you're considered a youth still at 1920. Yeah. So weird. So what how it's like you're in, you get sentenced as an adult like by the guy. lines, but you're still a youth. It's, the system's a mess. It's a mess. I stepped in, I'm 19 years old. I went to green correction facility. That is known as gladiator school.

Oh, wow. Literally. And mind you, when you ask me how many people are gang members, every single person was a gang member. Only one person will probably not be gang related. Fuck.

When SRG, you know, people who are investigating, correct you all who are figuring out who is who. In Green Conventional Facility, for every dorm that was probably like 40, 50 people, 48 was gang-related. So there's gang-banging all the time. 18, MS-13, 3 Italios, Blas, YG, M.OCO, different gangs, Rochester, Albany. You know, now you're full with not just youth who, you know, saying but you're you're serious gangs yeah you are serious sets and now so there's politics everywhere

different now it can be not just bloods beefing with each other you can be you yourself it can be city versus upstate so you're you're you're in rikers too no no i love rikers yeah this is rikers 2.0 this is you know what i mean like wow supercharged when did you at what point in your stretch did you decide to leave the bloods or because I we're we're going to wrap up soon I want to I we're going to go over to the Patreon and ask I want to ask you more questions about green and shit like that but how when did you say like this is enough and what was different when you came home the second time yeah I keep I kept landing a solitary confinement by myself yeah that does it like I'm not saying anyone should come with me I'm just saying like I felt that it was moments in

fights where, you know, like, would get in a rumble or something like that. And I'll be the one in solitary confinement, right? Or... What was your longest stretch in the hole? Ah. I mean, being in there a day seems like an eternity. Yeah. I did the stretch. When I maxed out, I did 60 days in the summertime, too. So it's hot as fuck. So basically, if it's 95 outside, it's 105 where we at.

Oh, shit. And that means imagine everything is controlled in solitary confinement, right? Like, you know, basically your showers just control when you get your food. Yeah. Do you get your mail? How often you get like two phone calls a week or something? You don't get no phone calls? No phone calls?

No phone calls. So it's only letters. Only letters. So 60 days with no letters. Maybe you might have a visit and your visit might change because of classification how long you've been in a box. But how often do they ever let you out? how many showers a week do you get? So you're supposed to get,

it felt like I took in a week, I felt like I took more bird baths than showers. Right? But you know, you're able to get an hour outside of your, you know, outside of your cell. But then that's like in another gate. And then the gate would be smaller

than the cell. Yeah. But what really got me into kind of push me away from being in the bloods was that I just had to think about where I was, right? Every time I kept landing in solitary confinement, it was like this movie where I kept hearing people's stories

or kept meeting different people, right? And I asked myself, like, I think this was my last time. I thought this was my last time being in solitary confinement. What got me here, what's next? What am I gonna do after this? And I looked at a mirror and I'm just like, yo, I cannot keep doing this, right? Like, so when you're in solitary confinement,

Mama, you get to talk to other people, right? Someone right next to me was 18 years old. They were just, they're doing seven years, and then somebody on the right from me been in the system their whole fucking life. Yeah. 50 years. Wow.

50 years. We call that life in the installment plan. You know? Yeah. And I'm just like sitting down and saying like, wow. And this dude is inactive. is, you know, in the bloods too.

Like he's getting his, you know, he's a part of this lifestyle. And what's that done for him? It's got him in the hole. For me, I just kind of thought, I was like, yo, I need to change something. You know what I'm saying? And I had an opportunity to do that when, you know, what happens is like when your big homie get kicked out the whip, what they call is like basically if an over, O.G. feels like that person, they don't like how they're leading. They can just say, hey, you got to get out my set.

That means everyone that that person's under can, has to choose someone else who be under. Or you can just say, you know what, like, in some, you had an opportunity to say, you know what, like, I really, I don't want to do any of this. So you could just drop out with no consequences. No, it was consequences. Really? Like, it was. Well, you tell us how far into your stretch did you drop out, like before your release date? It was 2013. I was like kind of year, year and a half.

But what happened was that put a target on my back, right? Because I was also in a blood facility. Right. So now, you know, I love the phones. Yeah. And now that I'm trying to, you know, I got to get on a phone at a certain time. Right.

So now I'm taking phones and controlling phones and saying this is a Harlem phone. So I'll get other Harlem people to be honest. phone or the three I'll get on the $3,000 for this is, and I'm going to even be, I'll be one of those guys to say you know, like, yo, can we you know, the $3,000 will say, hey man you think we can make this a $3,000, you go ahead, do

what you want. I just need to get on the phone after I get on the phone. So you didn't have any consequences for dropping out. I didn't have any consequences but and realistically there was this history because the bluzz has

snished on my brother and it was that like behind people's back like, yo, we kind of didn't do him right, right? Nobody was sending me anything, right? Like, nobody was coming and visit me. Nobody was sending me any money. Like, you get what I'm saying? Nobody was checking on my family, right?

And, you know, when I tell that story of the person who took their life, you know what I'm saying? Like, there was... Very little honor. Very little loyalty. I was just very confused of where, what was my 10 years going to be here?

And I just had to have a grips of my own life and say, yo, shit got to change. And I already been in a system. So, you know, 24, I might be 23. I was 23 at that time. Yeah. So, and then you, did you get all your good time? No. Hear this out.

Playing with those phones, you play with fire. So we had, I was in, I was doing this drug program. So you got to do a drug program when you come home in New York State, right? So I was in a drug program space. I was almost done. I was supposed to go home June 3rd. I was like a month before I was going home. And this is what happened.

This is, there was some issues. This blood dude, I thought I was cool with him, right? Like, you know, I would give him tobacco. I was taking a nap, you know, like, I was just working out getting ready to go home. I had, you know, you're chilling. Cinco de Mayo. It was Cinco the Mayo.

And I was going home in June. Mad blood dues came into the dormitory, right? And we had Tom Slot, and that was fucking with correctional officers. So they put the paper up to have people put their times that they're going to use the phone. And then the first thing I tell the dorm before everyone leaves out, like, yeah, y'all already know my Tom slot. And y'all already know what Tom it is. You get what I'm saying? Like somebody dropped a slip on me.

It was this blood dude. Somebody snitched on you? He snitched on me. Dropped a slip basically means. It was saying I was selling weapons around the campus. Were you? No, I wasn't. I wasn't at all.

Did you get into any kind of criminal activity up there besides messing with the phones? No, not really. Like fights, going solitary confinement and stuff like that. Do you get good time in New York State? If you get sent to the hole for fighting, do you get good, do you lose good time? Yeah, they can challenge that. Oh. Right.

And, but for me, like. But you didn't lose any good time that way. I lost my, I lost my good time when they fought the weapon. Okay. So what'd you have on you? It wasn't, it wasn't mine. Hear this out. Like the guy, the guy put the weapon inside the can.

I went to sleep because, you know, he's in a dorm. Yeah. I went to, yeah, I'm in a dorm. Inside of the tobacco can. Yeah, inside of the tobacco, inside of the tobacco. and dropped the slip I was sleeping I woke up and correct your office said

search and I'm like search for what and he searched my shit you found a weapon in my shit now I looked I'm like yo it's single than mine

I'm supposed to go home next month and I'm like yo I knew like in some way they was gonna you know somebody was going to come so you just got set up it looks like out of a movie man yeah I got

set up. So how much good time did you lose for having a six months? I was supposed to go home next month. Oh, no. A full six. Just for having a weapon. And it was in mine. And I was explaining multiple times. And what people don't understand that because I already had a track record of going inside circle of finding. You got a long tail on you.

They weren't believing you. They were. Yeah. Wow. So what was your full, when you came home, how long? Total had you been in from the time you got arrested at 19? until the time he got out of prison. How long was it? I came home when I was 24, so...

Five years or something? Around like five years, yeah. That's a long stretch, man. Yeah. And a stressful one. It's a stressful one, but it's also... It's different, right? Because I'm young.

Yeah. Right? And I'm experiencing a lot of things that people are already dealing with for 30s or 40, right? But for me, like, what happens, people don't understand. Like, when you lose your good time,

that means you're being sent to a different facility. they sent my ass eight hours away from New York City. I was in Riverview. I can see the Canadian bridge from when I walked the yard. What was the name of that prison? Riverview. Oh, okay. So you went from Green to Riverview to Riverview.

Yeah, cultural facility. And that's the worst. Because now your people have to travel, they can't see you. And it takes them all day to come and see me. And then at that time, too, like multiple times I were telling us. It's not my weapon. They did not care. No.

Not from a guy like you, man. Literally, literally six months, I'm like, yo, I'm not to lose this. Can you imagine June 3rd comes and you think you're dressing up and thinking you're going to go home? Yeah, you like, New York's about to be beautiful. You're going to see those buildings. And what I did, I was so bad because I was like banging on the gate. Bye, pop, pop, pop, pop, bye. Yo, I'm supposed to be going home.

And he's like, nah, man, you are waiting to be seen. I was supposed to, this is a new case that I'm kind of fighting, right? So that means somebody from the public will basically hear me out. So what do you mean? So when you catch a new case. Oh, they were actually charging it with a criminal case. Having a weapon is so yeah. So they were charging me with a new case and I was telling them multiple times that's not mine.

So even if I didn't get charged with a new case, they took my good time away. Right. So, but there was a possibility that you were going to be retried. If, if. Wow. What could they have given you if they wanted to for that? Like a year?

Hmm. I don't know, man. Like I said, six months. So they just looked at it, the DA or whoever looked at it and said, we'll just, just take your good time. Yeah. Yeah. So it was rough because at that time I was dating someone. I'm like, yo, she's definitely going to leave me.

Wow. That's crazy. So what, but you did, you finished out of Riverview, you paroled, and then you came back to the block and like, what did you do different? You know what I mean? Yeah, I got more active in the get out, stay out program. So I started talking to people who came home just like me. What was their returning plan, right?

Like, has everyone got a returning plan, right? Like, what are you going to do? What if it doesn't work? How do you not give up? So I got introduced to a lot of people coming home, right? And so December 31st, 2014, I came home before the ball dropped, literally. So I was starting a new year, a new day. And, you know, I got involved with programs, the Get Outstay out program.

I started speaking around, you know, speaking for them, speaking to their funders about my life. And I slowly started hearing about other campaigns, like the Close Rikers campaign, not out. releasing, I was already vocal in a raise-the-age campaign, basically raising the age for accountability for youth, 16 to 17, right? And that's been successful. They don't have any youths on Rikers Island anymore. Wow. Yeah, yeah. That's huge. I was a huge part of that using my voice. So when I joined the campaign to close Rikers, I was still working. And, you know, I came home. I worked in the food industry. I joined this food truck called Drive Change that only hire,

formerly incarcerated youth returning back to society. We won a Vinny Awards for the best food truck in 2015. Oprah even was looking at our, it was a grilled cheese with maple on it. That's on fire. Maple syrup? Maple syrup. Damn, bro. Yeah.

Too much diabetes in the hood. You guys got a new year. New York. For something healthier. Oh, yeah. But I heard about the closed Rikers campaign. I got very active in it, became using my voice. And then I heard of a position open and I got hired as an organizer.

And I started organizing, learning about how do we actually close Rikers organizing with former judges like Judge Lipman, who actually created this Lippmann commission. that he and others who are police officers, lawyers, who play a role in the system and starting figuring out how do you actually really close Rikers. Right. So you have a lot of support. Like, there's widespread support from not just former criminals and incarcerated people, but politicians and law enforcement that say this isn't working.

We have to close this down. Yeah. And it happened because of not just because of Kaleep Browder, but the outcry. That was big, though. Yeah. That documentary was huge in 2016. Yeah. So when the campaign first started, it was launched with 50 people, like 50 organizations,

especially being in New York. And it was launched in 2016. So I got a time to just like really be active in that space. And what a lot of the things that they were able to change is to, you know, small things that you get locked up for, right? Like jumping to a turnstile. Why are you getting locked up for jumping to turnstile? gravity knife

you know things that like broken window policing like more Khalif Browder had a stole a backpack but then he's given an unreachable bail and now he's you know his life is ruined but but that the abilities of closing Rikers was very scary for a lot of people because it's like that never happened

it looks like a fantasy like what I used to say in my old days like a unicorn at the end of the block like is it is it is it real yeah is it real? Yeah is it real So I organized. We started organizing directly impacted people, getting an organization, Littman Commission came out, pushing at that time Mayor de Blasio. We was following him everywhere. We were following him to his house. We would follow him to MacLorda. Florida. We were burned.

That sounds like a parole violation. Yeah, it was. I think it was. But here this out, we were, we were even Gracie Mansion. Like, people didn't know when we had, I would literally stay in front of Gracie Mansion at like, 6 o'clock in the morning with a security suit acting like I work around there watching to see where the miracle. Like that's how intense the campaign was, right? Like we would catch them at YMCA. You know, we would catch them like literally out that was. What is, so where, I guess where, what's your argument?

Yeah. What's your argument? Is it that Rikers Island, is so corrupt. It's such an old building. Because like, where are people that get arrested going to go? Maybe you say,

okay, we'll stop arresting and giving crazy bail to, yeah, turnstile jumpers. But what about people that catch felonies? Yeah.

Where are they going to go? Are there other jails for them to go to? And are they better, like what is it specifically about Rikers that is such a violation of human rights? Yeah, I mean,

first of all, It's like Alcatraz, right? Like Alcatraz was so away from population. To get to Rikers, you've got to get to a bridge. So many human violations happen that we might not know about. Let's say if someone's getting harmed, that issue is fixed before they even, you know, before somebody figure, investigate some of what's going on.

You mean swept under the rug. All the way. But it's also like, you know, Rikers Island is built on trash, right? And I don't think people understand when, If you ever been close to Rikers or you've been in places that are close to Rikers, people don't understand that you can smell this like eggy, rotten smell. Oh, when it's hot out, it must smell disgusting. And you're breathing that in, like correct your officers are not drinking in the water.

Oh, yeah, you were saying you can't drink the water on Rikers. Yeah, good luck. That's why? You'll get me sick. You don't know what's in the water. Yeah, it's built on trash. It's built on trash. The pipe system is old.

You know, you hear about people drinking things and dying. Yeah. Like, even correct your offices, don't drink any water from here. So you have to, do they have a bunch of bottled water? Like, what are you supposed to do? What are you supposed to drink? It's bad. Because we got to drink the water where we're going to drink from.

So do they give you bottle water? No, no, we had to drink that water. Oh, Jesus. It's horrible. And one of the things is, it's like, it was, Rikers Island they also had like you know you also had a hospital

there you know you had power plants right right what people don't understand like power plants are very scary and very toxic right and when you look at like certain neighborhood as Hunt's Point

and um uh uh where's now's from Queensbridge Queensbridge right they also have a power plant over there, the study that has found that the people around there, the kids and asthma has

picked up because of those power plants. And that was another factor playing on Rikers-Azheimer. Yeah, it's a cesspool up there. There's so many different industrial facilities and things around it. That makes sense. Environmental-wise, human rights-wise. And it's just hard for people to come see their loved ones. And most of the times people who are in there, you know, know, I never had my lawyer come see me unless he was a pay lawyer. Right. Right. So like the reason behind this was, this was always like a model that been talked about,

getting the city of the 12 to four jails. So the facilities is Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. So anyone who's incarcerated, what they're trying to do is, you know, past, a little isolation to keep lower in the population by passing, you know, making sure people don't land in Rikers, right? attorney and violent programs or AV, AV, no,

to remove people, to remove people before they get into Rikus. You're right, like you get them into programs, right? If someone jumped to term style, how do you get them

into programs to get their life together, right? But I understand, like people who have felony, you know, remandin is always going to exist. So people got to be somewhere. But what we're saying is like the condition that exists right now

is unlivable for anyone, right? There's, I read now, overdoses all the time. Overdosis all the time. People are always dying. People taking their life. Corrects your officers, not following protocols when it comes to checking on people who have

mental health issues. People mental health is people getting mental health. Majority of people who are laying in there had mental health problems. Are people, did people commit suicide while you were there? Yeah, that happens. They hang themselves? That's a real thing, right? Like, I remember my time when I was a, uh, uh,

When I was a youth, I seen two kids back to back in the same place hanged themselves. Oh, Jesus. And it's scary, right? Because these are kids. Yeah. And anyone can watch this. And look at a kid. Look at a kid around your neighborhood.

Maybe he's a kid. Because of fear about what they're going to go through on Rikers. Right? And for me, like, seeing that, because I, you know, when you see somebody make a rope, you know what I'm saying and not having a conversation with someone, you know something's going on. Wow. So, like, a lot of times when we check in with something like, that motherfucker ain't talking. And that's how you would know, like, somebody was about to take their life. They just turn off and shut down.

Yeah, the CO has to press the button and, you know, they have to bring him, cut them down and stuff like that. And you saw that. Yeah. And Khalif Browder, rest of soul. I believe he took his own life. Multiple times, he was already trying to take his life when he was on Rikers. Yeah. So people,

people's minds just get completely messed up from spending time in Rikers. I mean, you're lucky you didn't. I mean, you were bullied. Like when you went in at 16, you were essentially like bullied for a year. Oh,

and being jumped and getting in so many fights. It's like, you know, you really have a strong will to be able to like survival. all that. But it's also too scary because I woke up with nightmares too, like shaking and like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like thinking that somebody's going to harm me, right?

And no matter how tough you are, like, you know, there's a point of fear or a point where you just put the feel in your fucking gut and just do what you need to do, right? Yeah. And like me seeing that, was scary, man. So do you think once Rikers, and by the way, how, who, when was it finally, when was it finally, when did they finally decide to close it? Yeah, yeah. So 2019, that was, the Litman Commission was, they was coming out with the report, right?

And at that time, Mayor de Blasio wanted to come out with his, with his, like, support beforehand, right? Like, you know, mayors, they're running for different positions. They don't want to make, they don't want themselves to look bad. We're already making him look bad. We're following him everywhere. We're going to Miami with him. You know what I'm saying? We're following him to his house in Brooklyn.

You know, watching. Yeah, fucking his wife. No. No. Yeah. But so it's, we are making his life a living out. Yeah, right. So once, so, but did he give the executive order?

Like, who has the power to close Rikers? Yeah. So he came, he actually went to city council and, um, did a public announcement. Wow. Okay. Mind you, he did a public announcement in 2018, but nothing happened. That's what, you know what I'm saying?

Like, just because somebody say they're going to close Rikers, that doesn't mean Rikers actually get closed. He went on TV and said, yo, they were going to close Rikers, but with what foundation? Like, what does that look like? So for a year, we literally created a built community platform that, mirrors the Black Panther Party and the Young Lord's way of meeting people's basic needs. So we went to all the all communities that have been in that, uh, full up Rikers,

right? This is, the Green Haven think tank where they, they were a whole bunch of incarcerated, um, OGs in the 90s that started investigating where exactly zip codes were people coming from. And we used that model. Um,

and we just started doing events in, um, Basically, in all the communities that are impact about Rikers, right? Besti, Harlem, most of the Bronx, right? South Jamaica, Queens. And we started doing community events, going outreaching, you know, getting political figures in this space, politicians, people in the gang culture, and figure out what do we do if we, if Rikers get closed, right?

Right. And that is a good question. Will the overdoses stop if people, if inmates, They don't go to Rikers. They go to the downtown jail. Like, you know, maybe, right? Probably, maybe some of it. Everybody wanted to know.

Like, what exactly? What would that look like? What do you think? And then we'll wrap and go to the Patreon. What do you think will happen in 2027 when Rikers, the island does officially close and, you know, people that get remanded, arrested, or fighting their cases, go to other jails? They will basically, if they're, locked up in Manhattan,

they'll go to a Manhattan facility. Right. The reason why, just from someone who was in a gang culture, I believe that is a very important thing to do. Because you can't, like, and this is just me speaking, because the gang culture can't

rapidly grow. Right. Because everybody's spread out now. They're not just in this one cesspool. And that's what happened. A lot of the gangs and a lot of gangs on Rikers, how the blood spread out, how the Trinontarios were born.

in there. Yeah. How they all spread out was because everyone went to Rikers. That makes sense. So now you don't have as much of a breeding ground for gang activity. But you also now have a small little population coming in and out, right? Right. Now you have a bigger space, a space to have more nonprofits, be active.

Now you have more. Like, when you go to the Brooklyn facility, like, you got elders who come see their loved ones and they came and sit down. Right? Like, I get it. like, that's unfair, right? Like, these are people still awaiting trial, right? And, like, it's not just about just closing in jail. It's about conditions, right?

Like, Manhattan Tumes programs can't fully be active there because of how structural it is. Or, you know, I can't, if you go to Manhattan Tunes right now and someone's trying to look out the window, they can't do that. So once Rikers is closed, you guys can focus your efforts on these others' jails. Yeah, and I mean, that is a model that was used. This campaign has been a campaign that model that was used around the country. L.A., Justice L.A., when they stopped their 3.1 billion dollar prison expansion that they was trying to do in Atlanta, where they actually used a facility that was only intaking small amount of people and close the facility.

And this was a woman-led woman, and they led. campaign, then they turn that facility as a one-stop shop for everyone. You know, like, so there is, like, different campaigns. So there's progress. Yeah. In Philly, the mayor closed the facility before we even had the meeting with. Wow. So the pressure worked.

Yeah, the pressure really worked. It's starting to work. But the part about it is that you've got to be able to figure out what is landing these individuals in here. Of course. You know what I'm saying? Of course. poverty. How do we address those poverty? You just can't say, hey, you know, we need to end poverty. What does that look like? Right? You know, so for me being in those spaces and having a story and being and experiencing all what I experienced, I use some of that teaching of what I went through in the field. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, when a lot of people ask me, you, I can't get in tune with my youth, man. Can you come in and talk to them? You know what I'm saying? I'm going there and stand them straight.

So you'll talk, go to Rikers? Do you go to Rikers? Do you go to Rikers? Do you go to Rikers? Not rikers still and talk? No, no, but me just talk about like. Oh, okay. On the outside. Yeah. Outside. Like, you know, like, because you got to remember, right?

A lot of you've got to come home. Yeah. So, like, for me, there's a lot of hard conversations we got to have always every year. Yeah. You know, we, we always trying to build a better world for everyone, right? And what does that look like? Well, you're doing great work, man. And then we're going to put the link in the description.

They can go donate to the nonprofit. Give us one more time. Or is it a go fund me? Tell them where they can donate. What's the best place? We're doing a GoFundMe for America OnTrial. That's my nonprofit. If you want to donate as an individual, please reach out to me, you know, by Instagram, by my website.

And, you know, I can send you a donation letter and say thank you for donating. We are looking for board members too. And, you know, whoever is out there just want to have conversations, your donations will go very far. $1, $5, $10, $100 means that we can be able to be able. to keep funding our, you know, our work, right, helping people return back society, building more leadership among people who are coming home. Amen. Amen.

A killer interview. That was fascinating. You stick around and do a bonus episode real quick? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, man. We got energy still. Thank you guys. Switchover patreon.com slash the Connect show.

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