The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Former Mongols Leader Exposes ATF Informants, RICO & the Hells Angels War

Episode Date: June 18, 2026

Former Mongols MC leader Mooch sits down to reveal the inside story of motorcycle club life, the Mongols’ war with the Hells Angels, ATF informants, RICO cases, and what really happened behind the scenes of major biker investigations. In this episode, Mooch breaks down how federal informants allegedly infiltrated motorcycle clubs, how Operation Black Rain impacted the Mongols MC, and why he believes many members were pressured through RICO charges and plea deals. He also talks about club politics, being labeled “out bad,” the fight over the Mongols patch, the rise of biker club violence, and the reality of life after leaving the patch. Mooch gives a rare firsthand look at the structure of the Mongols Motorcycle Club, the rules members live by, the conflict with the Hells Angels, and how biker culture has changed through social media, pop culture, and federal pressure. This is a deep dive into outlaw motorcycle clubs, brotherhood, betrayal, informants, law enforcement, and redemption after leaving the life. Topics include:Mongols MC, Hells Angels, ATF informants, RICO cases, Operation Black Rain, biker wars, motorcycle club politics, federal investigations, outlaw motorcycle clubs, life after the patch, and Mooch’s personal journey. Go Support Mooch! Book: https://a.co/d/0bK2pZwm Podcast: @automotoent IG: https://www.instagram.com/og__mooch Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow 00:00 Introduction & The Mongols' Reputation 01:10 Meet Mooch: Inside Mongols Culture 03:30 Leaving the Club & 'Out Bad' Explained 05:54 Speaking Publicly & Club Structure 08:00 International Chapters & Racial Politics 13:34 Membership Growth & Changing Biker Image 20:45 Dues, Club Size, and Prospecting 25:25 Mongols Bylaws & Internal Discipline 32:30 Drug Use, Criminality & Club Culture 39:05 Federal Prosecution: Myths, Informants, & Racketeering 48:54 Undercover Stings & Entrapment Tactics 58:18 Mooch's Arrests & Justice System Challenges 01:12:00 Life After Mongols & Positive Change 01:19:44 What Does '1%' Mean Today? 01:26:30 Leadership, Politics & Club Conflicts 01:34:00 Club Growth, Violence & The Changing Landscape 01:40:00 Law Enforcement, Propaganda & Final Thoughts 01:41:30 Mooch's Book, Podcast & Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In theaters July 10th One of the big things that really tracked me in the Mongols is that Mongols are very militant. I wanted to be like, hey, I joined the Mongols and it made my life better. But the reality of what I saw wasn't that at all. He was bolstering the membership to go to war at the Hells Angels and that ATF agent had walked up and, hey, you know, they're out Mongol hunting. They're trying to kill you guys. A cop went to the Hells Angels casino, which were all on ATF agents were, and said, hey, your buddies are surrounded by Mongols. They need help.

Not as many people know that the bikers are the victims in this case. And the instigator was the informant. They get to have these interagency collaboration units where you get paid extra. So do you think they want everything to be cool? And what do you think they're going to say publicly? Hey, we've been wasting your taxpayer money to follow a bunch of groups that really not doing illegal stuff. Justin DeLoreto, aka Mouche, is a former high-ranking member of the Mongols 1% Biker Club.

You've seen this guy all over the internet before. Today, he's here exposing secrets about life inside the infamous Mongols motorcycle gang including their ongoing war with the Hell's Angels and the federal racketeering case that nearly wiped them out. Most importantly, Mooch debunks the many myths and falsehoods surrounding 1% biker culture and reveals how the federal government, especially the ATF, are actually the ones responsible for creating the criminal activity inside of these biker clubs. He's got a new book you should check out called The Ride of My Life, available anywhere you get books. We'll leave a link to that in the description below.

This is the most accurate account of what the 1% biker world is actually like. It's mooch from the Mongols right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. He was out bad, and so the rest of the chapter,

because he was going to take over when I retired my chapter, and so when he left out bad to the rest of the chapter, he was just out, the rest of the chapter said, well, we want to step out until he can come back.

Yeah. And I really pushed for them to be in good standings. Like, they didn't do anything wrong, They weren't quitting, you know. They were a family, so to speak. Yeah.

And they saw that as a way to get rid of me. So they put them out in bad standings and sent me a text and said, hey, you know, these guys are out bad. You can't hang out with them anymore. And these guys, I'm lifting weights with. I'm doing what you're due to with, like, riding with all the fucking time. And they said, or don't post pictures and stuff. I'm just going to be honest with you guys.

Like, these are my dudes, you know. And I'm not even that tight with them anymore because I moved, but it was more the principal, right? And I was like, yeah, man, I'm going to keep hanging out with them. I didn't anything wrong. And they said, well, then that means you're out bad. So they essentially said, you know, he fell on a sword and left with his dudes. And they sent a text out that he said, hey, Mooch has moved on with his life.

There's no ill will. But he was, I was still out bad, which we, because it meant no contact. So what is being out bad entail then? So back in the day, out bad was you fuck somebody's old lady. You robbed from somebody. You know, you did something dirty. And you, it was on site, essentially. I mean, no one was out looking for you.

But you weren't in good standings, that's for sure. And, you know, couldn't see ex members. Couldn't wear club shit. Couldn't have, you have tattoos. to get covered. Nowadays, I think in most clubs, it's so watered down. Like, said, for example, if you left the club before you've been in for 10 years, you automatically out bad, well, I don't have ill will towards a dude like that, right? He didn't do anything bad against anybody, and so there started being all these other, like, caveats to it. For me, I'm sure there's

Mongols that don't care about me now because I'm doing stuff like this, you know, even though, you know, I thought Kylie at the club still, but just the fact that, you know, I'm talking about club stuff. But there's no, like, personal ill will. I don't think anyone's trying to beat me up. There's no one looking for me. I covered my tattoos even before I was out bad. because I had Mongols really big on the back of my head. And I just, man, I had it my whole life. I used to have a middle school at the middle finger. And then, you know, and I'm working with judges and probation officers.

And, you know, because I'm working with kids that are on parole probation. And it wasn't conducive to my life. And I also, I was retired, but I didn't want to, like, represent something I'm not. Because now I'm going to go out there. People are going to see that. And whatever I'm doing is going to reflect the club. And even if it's positive stuff, which I'm doing. So I just felt like it was the right thing to do.

And people got upset about that too. But, you know, you can't play. People always find a reason to. upset. Are you allowed to be speaking publicly? You are now, but if you're a member of the Mongols, are you allowed to speak publicly on podcasts and things, or is there kind of a vow of? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no. You can't talk to any sort of like, well, anything publicly or any sort of journalists or anything like that. Now, the caveat is, right, if national leadership gives you the approval or there was some times when little Dave was the president, he went on some show,

like he did the Lisa Ling show and stuff, but it's something that has to be discussed, voted on. And we have to say, like, what's the point, right? Why are we going to do it? That's the outcome. So yeah, generally it's really discouraged. Okay, so the Mongols, how are they structured today versus like the Hells Angels who each chapter kind of operates autonomously? Yeah, so you know, the Angels are more a corporation, so to speak, like a franchise, right? And then they take to get national stuff completed. They have, you know, each chapter gets to vote or whatever, and they have different meetings. The Mongols are top-down leadership, which are like most major clubs, right? So you've got a national president and then what we call the mother.

chapter, which is like the club's governing body. And then something that I kind of put into place as a club grew is we have a regional representative that wasn't necessarily like a president of the area, but he was the go between between mother chapter. He was by making sure that everyone's following the bylaws and, you know, if there's any issues or what events are coming up. So it goes to that. And then from the regional person, then it goes down to, you know, chapter president and

then along down the line. And so it's a very structured, like when we were working on a truce with the Hells Angels, we would have these sit downs with them and they'd say, okay, well, we got to take it back to our old members or, you know, our president's meeting in three months or whatever. Where from the Mongols, little Dave could say, hey, hands off angels, if anyone touches them, you're going to get trouble kicked out, whatever. And it's like a light switch, right? Boom, boom, boom.

We got to follow the rules. And so the structure was quite a bit different. The downside to that is racketeering, right? And navigating that since the Mongols got that big racketeering charge in 2008, learning from that and navigating like what kind of things constitute criminal leadership, even if we don't feel like we're doing. criminal stuff. And so, you know, for the angels, are protected for that, to the most, to some extent, right? And where is the national president or the national governing body located?

Southern California. They've always, so the club started in Los Angeles and Montebello and the national leadership, but it's always been in the Los Angeles area, always. And are there international chapters? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So when I, when I first joined in 07, there was like Oklahoma and some other out-of-state chapters, but they're really, I think, I think that was it honestly they tried Canada a couple times it didn't work out ended up doing Mexico but over the years like when Doc was still a president no seven oh eight he was opening up chapters in other countries I ended up overseeing that of country chapters and a lot of them weren't meeting our standards weren't following the rules and we shut a lot down but like I helped start Australia they're really big in Thailand

not super big in Europe I think they restarted there but Thailand they're big and Australia they're really big Thailand yeah yeah I was out there went out there met a lot of them and it was really cool I'm trying to picture small tie men. Dressed like Cholos from Los Angeles. Yeah. Like you think, I'm sure you're seeing on social media, like that Japanese culture of like where they redo the rockabilly or the car scene or vaccine. It's kind of the same thing. It's always tied dudes with the Wolverine or Thorough Good Boots and the 501s.

Yeah. So they don't discriminate at all racially. They do in the fact that any old school 1% club doesn't allow African Americans in. Other countries are different to this extent. Like I know some there's some Black Hills Angels in Canada. there's definitely black Mongols in Australia. But generally speaking, especially in the United States, that's like the one race that still is.

And, you know, I grew up as an anti-racist skinned, so it's something I always like tried to figure out, like the deal is. And the way it's always been explained to me is the United States prison politics. Like if you're a Mongol and you go in and you have to go with your race, like how that split up. And in most state prisons and then federal, you know, the whites and Hispanics sometimes generally roll together or closer at the same side. So it wasn't as much of an issue.

Yeah, for sure. but it's weird because you grew up as an anti-racist skinhead, but when you go to prison, a lot of those skinheads are at least overtly racist or, you know, follow strict racial separation. Yeah, that's been a challenge for that scene, right? Like, you know, you live the streets with your moral ethics and your values

and fighting these dudes, and then you go in there and that's how it's supposed to go. And I'm sure you've interviewed enough people to know that you really can't stand up too much on that scene, right? Like, if you want to survive. But in that regard, too, though, at least in federal prisons, there's what they call the biker car where all the clubs hang out. So you're not as, you know, hooked up like that.

And in California where it's based, would you say the club is growing currently or contracting? I think it's still growing. I think clubs everywhere are growing. Like I said, when I joined, there was one or two out of state chapters and now they're, you know, I was kind of in that era that just started the overlap of the growth, where before each national club kind of had their own region. right like the outlaws were in the Midwest, you know, the South and the Banditos were in the South and Midwley. You know, you kind of knew what big club is where. And nowadays, pretty much every club is everywhere. They share states.

And a lot of it probably is Internet, right, plays a big role because there's more exposure to you get to see it. You get to meet people. You can talk more. You know, events are coming up. But I think that biker culture has gotten a lot more popular between, you know, sons of anarchy and popular media. But it's not the early days of like this is some subculture, like, you know. Right. And so I think it's gotten a lot more popular and a lot more people are leading into it.

Yeah, it's a lot more commercial. Absolutely. That's a great way to put it. Which kind of makes it less outlaw. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Ironically. And it's funny too because, you know, especially with social media, it's a big piece is that a lot of it becomes image, right? And so I talk about this often.

You know, back in the day, there's that local tough guy in here. Hey, I heard so-and-so join this club. And you're like, eh, that makes sense, right? That was the guy who was fighting against, you know, whatever. The guy that was always on the fringe of society, you know? and now I know people get mad when I say it, but it's true is that almost every club will take any person that's willing to, like say they have to prospect or whatever. If that person is willing to do that, maybe one chapter won't take them, but this one will. And so there's a lot more members because, you know, no one's turning anyone.

Oh, you don't have what it takes, so you're not the right fit. No one's turning people away. And the downside of that, too, is, you know, if you came, say you come, like I came from the skinnet world or say you came from the street gang, right? You likely have some confidence in who you are as a person. And you know how that world works. And you really don't have much to prove to anybody, right? Like, I know who I am inside, whether I'm not saying I'm anything tough or special, but I know what I'm capable of what I'm not.

And so I'm not trying to prove anything. There's a lot of these guys that have never come from that life. So they put that best on. And they're the ones, do you know who I am? They're the ones that are starting shit. They're the ones that are scared to beat us or shooting people. Like, it's just a role play, right? And it comes, like I said, it's commercialized.

And so it's really gotten into this, like, identity role play piece. That's, I mean, I think it's been a negative effect on a club life. But it's definitely something that's, happening and I think that's a lot of why there's so many people out there. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool.

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I know for the Mongols, the big piece was, like, we had our chapter dues, which, you know, would help keep the clubhouse up. Or if we're going to go on a run, it would pay for our hotels. You know, it's essentially going to go back to the members. We're throwing a party. Right. But then we also paid up to National. And that money supposed to be for, you know, big national runs. But, and then into legal defense.

And after the racketeering stuff, a lot of the times it was hard to pay for a members, like say a member in California goes out and shoot somebody and we're all paying for it. Now the club is supporting someone that's doing legal activity, right? So the legal defense stuff kind of was fizzling out because we were getting trouble for doing it. And so, yeah, then you start wondering, well, where's the money going? How much is it? Like when the model was for 10 years, we're fighting that racketeering case and a trademark case. So we knew where the money was going.

But a lot of the other clubs, yeah, you're introducing money to something. And you know the inherent risks that come with that too and the infighting in the politics. But yeah, that could definitely be a part of it is more members equals more money, right? How much are dues for a normal member? For Mongols, it was about $50 a month of your chapter and 50 to Mother Chapter. So nothing crazy. How many Mongols are there in the United States? That's a tough one, man.

I would say maybe 11 to 1,200. It's not very many. Yeah, but see, people make these very over-exaggerated guesses, right? Like, if you see 40 bikes on the road, people are going to say it's 100 because it looks big, right? But if you've been in a room with 300 people, it looks like 800, right? So I think unless you've, like, sat there and actually counted and seen it and you have some comparison, it's easy to think it's a lot more people. Or you're on the internet and you say, hey, there's a chapter here, chapter there.

But, you know, most chapters are somewhere between four to eight members. Some states only have two or three chapters. So yeah, I think that's probably a pretty realistic, pretty realistic number. When I joined, there was probably closer to four or five hundred, you know, and there was times in the late 90s where they were down to less than 100. And to get in or to join, to become a member, kind of what are they looking for in this day and age? Yeah, so that's changed too. So, you know, back in the day, you would hang out for a long time or want to get to know each other. And I get a lot of people that hit me up on social media.

They're like, hey, I want to join a club, right? What should I do? And my advice for the most part is hang out. The longer you hang out, no matter what anyone's telling you is happening, you can see it, right? You can start seeing what the time requirements are, what the commitment level is, who's doing what, how they treat each other, how they treat their prospects, how they treat the old ladies. So generally, you'll start in that hangarround period and you'll spend time getting to know everyone that get to know you. And then the traditional way is you start, then you prospect. You're asked to prospect or you ask them if you can prospect.

And that generally, every club is a little different on that, unlike the timelines for it. Like Mongols, it was minimum six months. I think the angels are a year. And that's the minimum, right? If you're not making any advance or you're messing up, then you take longer. But, you know, back in the day, it was more of like a pledging, right? Like, it reminded me of fraternity stuff because they'd make them do silly stuff. Or, you know, eventually got to the point, like, at least when I was able to start changing some stuff,

is like, how are we going to get these dudes to join the club that, say, were old shot callers or down dudes or whatever, and say, go climb this tree in your underwear or whatever silly stuff they did back in the day, right? So to me, the purpose of prospecting was teaching them the program, right? Learning how to act, learning how we run our program, understanding the rules, following the rules. And of course, there's some of that big time is helping out with security. There's some of the gopher stuff, right? Like, hey, go run this, bartend at the clubhouse. Make sure you got cigarettes for the members.

But generally, so to speak, it got to the point where prospects, if you're asking a prospect to do something, you should be asked yourself, what a lesson of them learning from this, right? You don't want to embarrass them in front of other people. Like back in the day, same thing, you know, going to push-ups or doing silly dances at the bar. So I think that shifted quite a bit. But a lot of clubs, like I'll just be honest, I never prospected. I was handed a patch because I started a new chapter. And a lot of clubs as the growth happened and expansion, not everyone has prospected and have to prospect.

And so some people come right in. And I think, you know, I see this stuff a lot where people say that everyone should prospect because so many people quit clubs, you know, and they, oh, if they prospect, they earned it. But, man, the 15 years I was in, I saw guys that didn't prospect that are still in. I've seen guys that prospected and were great prospects that left. Like, I don't think there's any sort of method of like what the purpose of prospecting is or how to maintain them. And what are some of the bylaws of the club? And is criminality forbade in those laws? Yeah, absolutely. So the Mongols have the five commandments and the main one's like, you can't do something that's going to get your brother arrested, right? You can't steal from each.

Like kind of, to me, it's like a ethical manship, right? Don't steal from each other. Don't mess with a brother's wife or girlfriend. and, you know, that typical stuff. But they have the rule of that you can't do something that's going to get somewhere else arrested, and you can't use your patch for a personal gain. So just like if some guy owes a brother money, he can't get members to go down there with them to get it, right?

And then those are just the commandments. Then there's a constitution, which is like the club's national rules, and then each chapter has bylaws. So we're talking like a lot of rules to be in the club. But yeah, so like when Little Dave took over in 08, there was a rule that everyone had to have visible means of income because, you know, the same thing. We want to show the public and definitely the government

that this isn't a major criminal organization. Even if there has been members that have been caught doing personal stuff, no one's making money and paying up, right? Right. I'm not taking a chunk of whatever anyone's doing. And so that's discouraged. Getting in bar fights is discouraged.

I mean, the Mongols are very militant. So it's like most members wouldn't just walk up and hit someone. There's a protocol in a chain of command. And a big piece to that too. I mean, I'm a little off topic, A big piece of that is the way you present yourself in public, and that's part of the militancy, right? Like, if we go out and every time the mobles are the bathroom, they go in groups of two,

and there's guys standing over here and a guy watching the door here, and you're sitting across the room, you're less likely to want to go up and start shit, right? If they were at the ball or we're drunk and we've got her backs turned to someone, then you're always going to get that frat boy or the drunk guy. It's like, oh, you guys think you're tough or slamming them. And so I think the way we carried ourselves also prevented a lot of problems. But that also, to get people into that structure and that program, you've got to have rules, right? everyone shows up together, everyone leaves together.

We don't stay at the bars later than two. We don't stay in the parking lot after bars closed. All these little things that from years of experience realize that this will deter issues. And when you find stuff like that, boom, there's another rule, you know. And how do people who break the rules? How are they punished? So Mongols, one of the big things that really track me in the Mongols is they have a rule

that no member's allowed to fight each other. So there's nothing two brothers can't sit down and discuss. Now that's not a shield, right? Can I walk up to a dude and call him a bitch or something and not expect to get punched? But we don't use physical violence in the form of enforcing rules. There generally is monetary, so you find, depending on what it is. Or if it's a higher rule, then you could re-prospect. So you'd lose your top rocker.

So the patch, you know, the model was that as a top rocker or the center patch in the bottom. When you start prospecting, you just have the bottom rocker. If, say you're doing a six-month prospecting, around that three-month part, you might get your center patch. And that's at the end of your top. So when you get in trouble, it goes backwards. You could lose your top rocker.

Now you're back to being a prospect. If you really violate the rules, you can go all the way down to bottom rocker prospect, which means you're doing another six months before you can run your patchback. And then if it's an egregious like something in the commandments, then you're just get kicked out. And like the chapters you ran because you opened up a bunch of them. Yeah. You were really active in your peak. How many members in an average club were involved in criminal activity?

Man, even nationally, even other chapters, less than a dozen that I can. can think of and that's no BS. Like here's part of it is that obviously if people are doing illegal stuff and to make finance, to make money, right? They're not letting everybody know. But if you're around people long enough, you can figure it out, right? I would say less than a dozen for what I've seen. In my regions, I don't think we really ever had any because here's the other part too, is you attract the way you act, right? And that's people always ask how I was able to start these chapters. And I'd say, I never really recruited what I did. I was go out and be who I am and a like minded of people. Like, maybe they'd see the structure and they were using the military and they're

like, man, I've always missed a structure. I want to have some structure. But, you know, we're out there with pretty women. We're smiling. We're being respectful and polite. And like-minded people, get attracted to that, right? And that's what I've always kind of told some of these other clubs respectfully is that if you're only going to these dive bars and like I had a no math rule in my policy, no math policy in all my nations, or my regions, because to me, you know, we're an outlaw club. I can't tell people they can, can't do to some extent. But if it's something that I know is going to negatively affect your life, which means it's going to make you a bad brother. Right. If you're able to pay your dues, show up to all the meetings, go to work,

because we also have one of my reasons how to work out three days a week. So if you're able to eat your workouts and you're paying your dues, you're active, man, I don't care what you're doing, right? But meth is one of those things where it's like, how recreational can it be? And we've all seen it long enough. That not only does it affect the member, but it undermines the brotherhood in the chapter because now people are lying, they're stealing, you know, potentially could be start snitching. You know, there's just so many things that go along to it that I think we're such a negative in the chapter. And so people like that weren't like following and like trying to follow the club

or didn't have interest in the chapters we were at. So as far as the criminal activity goes, we really like attracted people that we were doing like mind and stuff. So the way we modeled it is what brought people in. So then why does the ATF and the FBI, why do they spend so many resources and time and manpower to try to put a case on you guys? Yeah, a solid question, a lot of layers to it. I would say, you know, initially 60s and 70s, clubs were doing illegal stuff, or maybe probably more 70s and 80s.

And that was probably part of it. That's when it started, you know, I think from what I've seen nowadays is it was the ATF, it's probably been about the same six to eight officers this whole time, right? So they likely found a unit that they could do what they want in. They got to have less oversight, you know, have their own ideas, their own visions. They get funding for it. I think another big piece is where they're visible, right? Like if there's a newspaper article that say Mongols did this, people can say, oh, I've seen them, right? When you talk about, you know, street gangs and stuff like that, most people don't know what that looks like.

But you say hell's angels, Joe Citizen knows what that means. So if there's a newspaper where it says that, hell's angels are busted for drugs, people are like, oh, yeah, let's get them off the streets because they see them. So I think the visible piece goes a long way with it too. And then the violence, man, you know, the public violence. Like once a lot of one happened, and then the clubs start shooting each other at gas stations and the more of that happens. And especially now social media and the news where, you know, It's in the public. It's in the news all the time. They can justify going after them because people are going to say, yeah, let's get rid of them.

Like, these guys are bad news. Right. But when it comes to, like, the old stuff of, like, drugs and criminal organization or the mafia on wheels, I'd like to think that myth has been this proven. Or maybe it's not a myth. It was a myth. It was true then. But I'm saying people have gotten away for it so long that at least a lot of the law enforcement that I know or we've talked to since, like, doing podcasts and stuff. Well, pretty openly admit that most clubs aren't, like, dealing drugs or doing, like, major stuff like that.

Did you have any federal informants or undercovers infiltrate your chapters that you opened at the time? Yeah, both. So in 2007 in Oregon, I started the first chapter in Eugene, and then we started in Portland. And, you know, we started with like five guys. And all the clubs there didn't want us to be there. And so we were somewhat at a rush to get membership, right? And there was an old school biker dude that I knew from another club that was really interested that he was hanging around.

And it turned out he was a city informant. He was going to pay $4,000 a month to be an informant. And then the other one was a federal informant for the ATF, and he was getting paid around the same through, four grand a month. Now, these were guys, like the federal one, he was down in Northern California and got busted for, you know, I believe it was some, like, drug stuff or mad stuff. And instead of just manning up and doing his time and taking his consequences,

decided to get paid to start telling on people. So he moved up to Oregon, and he started being a bouncer to borrow where we hung out. And, you know, he was like a big guy, I was in an MMA and stuff. And looking back is not someone I would ever bring in now. Like, we didn't really get along with them, but we needed people, and he was a big, tough guy, you know? And then the other one, the one that was for the city police, same thing, he was in another club.

We got busted ceiling motorcycles, and they got big, like, hit with his pretty big heavy charges, and he decided to just start telling on people, and then eventually got paid for it. And so, me being naive, dude, I was 25 years old, right? So, and I'm coming from the punk rock scene. So when I got into a biker scene, I read every book I could about it. Same thing about punk rock and skin. You know, again, we talked earlier off air, but pre-internet, right? Or the early emergence of internet, but a lot of the, but a lot of the,

information wasn't out there. So what I knew about undercover's is what I saw in the movies, you know, and these informants, you know, I had no meth rule, but this one of them over here who's doing meth, and both of them physically have taken a rehab before. I was doing couple's family counseling with them. Like, these guys were the ones we were discouraging from criminal activities. So the last thing in my mind was like, all these guys are feds, right? And it was before I knew anything really about this informant program. Because I didn't, you know, I was like, they can't be here doing all this illegal stuff if they're trying to bust people for stuff. and the frustrating part is what I saw is that the one that was for the ATF

the other clubs didn't want us there but we were you know I was trying to keep the peace we would have sit downs and keep things you know the political aspect of it and try to keep things peaceful and he would go up and punch one of them or whatever like he was instigating stuff right and if you think about it if you're getting paid four grand a month you can't go to your your handler and say hey they're not doing anything right and so they start stirring the pot and I have the paperwork on it so I'm happy to share it but though the city one he's still always always you're not doing anything tell me, because he got busted stealing bikes back in the day, right? So you go, hey man, I got this

guy that can stamp bin numbers so we can start taking bikes, we can change the vans, and then we'll sell them, we'll put the money in the chapter. That was already red flag for me, right? Because now it's not me and him doing something illegal together. You're trying to get everyone involved. But I also know there's no money and stolen bikes these days. Everything's stamped, like where you're going to sell? You know what I mean? It's like, doesn't even seem worth it. So I was telling him no. But his handler, who ended up being the victim of my crime, who was a law enforcement officer from when I got caught before, wasn't, Very truthful.

And so he had said, this was an in-person conversation with me and the informant, but the paperwork had said that he called and the officer was witnessing the call. And I said, yeah, yeah, let's do this. So it was like they were instigating this stuff so they could, A, the informant can make his money. But then these officers who are on these cases, they want to validate it, right? They don't want to say, oh, yeah, we spent all this money on this and they're a man. Other than they're like frat boys, maybe they do some recreational drugs on the weekends and maybe get in bar fight. But no one wants to hear that.

Right. Yeah, because they might not get their budget the next year. Absolutely. Budgeting is a big piece to it. And then you've got this informant who might go to jail. If he's working as an informant to work his time off. And he's being paid, right? That's right.

It's a job for him, too. So he's doubling up. Now that goes away. He might have to go do some time. Absolutely. Everything on it is his, it's all for his benefit, right? He's not there because he wants to be like, hey, I want to help society, right? I want to eat these criminals off the street.

He wants to keep his paycheck going. He wants to keep himself out of jail. So you think he's going to be honest or truthful? Right. And you were saying off air too, you know, there were instances where the ATF would basically entrap other brothers into selling drugs or selling stolen cigarettes when it wasn't even their idea. Absolutely. And so my initial thought on the process of this when I was learning and I was growing up is, again, from movies, right? We all think that the good guys, the cops, they go undercover and they realize that these guys were some secret criminal organization.

They watch it. They get involved and they bust them. And so that's, you know, that would make sense, right? You know, you know the risks when you're doing that stuff. But the reality of what I saw wasn't that at all. These guys would come undercover. They'd spend several years going to the parties, doing the drugs, hanging out with the women, doing all the fun stuff, riding the bikes.

And then at the end, they're busting people for stuff that, again, they weren't really doing. So I had told you off there. And this was all in the paperwork from Black Rain, if everyone wants to look. So I know I'm not bullshit. And is that one of the first things they did is they found some of the younger members that were either laid off or had low-paying jobs, and he gave him a box of untaxed cigarettes. And again, you know, young me would never think that's slap on the wrist, I would think, right?

Don't realize that's a federal crime. And he'd say, hey, man, my buddy, these fell off a truck, right? My buddy got these. He goes, why are you selling your friends and split it with me? Well, you might know that's illegal, but that doesn't mean you've been doing that forever or you're, you know, that's your gig selling stolen stuff. Or there was times where he would,

one of those undercover agents was like, hey, man, some dude, or I owe some dude money, you might go drop in those software. I'll give you, you know, a couple hundred bucks. Well, yeah, I'm sure you're not like, hey, I wonder what it is. You got to know it's illegal. But that doesn't mean that you're living. That's what you're doing, that you're inherent criminal, right?

Yeah, certainly an ongoing criminal conspiracy. Absolutely. And then the big one they did, and they've done this with a lot of different organizations, is they call it street theater, where the ATF agent, so when I was in Denver, Colorado, I just joined the club. I got to swap me with all the other clubs. And there was a guy who was introduced to me by now. I know it was an informant who was a member.

And this guy was a hang-around at the time. And he didn't, he had like Jerry Curl here. It was like an islander looking guy. Like he didn't look at the biker part at all right. And asked a lot of questions. And again, my, I didn't really, like I said, I wasn't doing crazy shit. So I wasn't really thinking like, I wonder if this guy's a snitch. But there was still some red flags, you know.

There was a bar fight that night and he showed up right after what happened. And, you know, trying to act like he was there to help. But it was just like, this guy's kind of weird. But he wasn't in my state. So I just like, whatever. And so I moved on. But, you know, I kind of remembered him. And about six or eight months later.

out, you know, I had been arrested, got out on bond, or I beat my case, I got out, and then I moved to San Diego, because I was on non-association, I wasn't supposed to hang out the club, so I just said, my charges that I got found guilty of her misdemeanor, so I said, they're not going to extradite me on misdemeanors, right? So I'm just going to go to San Diego, stay a Mongol. So I was at a party there, and this dude walks up, and now he's a full-patch member, and I recognized him, you know, and he goes, hey, Mooch, what's up, man, because I've been meaning to talk to you, you know, I'll step outside for a minute. It's like, okay, so I go out there, and he goes, hey, well, you know, I'm

I'm going to be in Oregon soon. And like anything you would do, even with visiting friends, right? Like, hey, let me know what you need in your town. You need to ride somewhere. You want to go to dinner. So I was like, let me know if you need anything. I said, where are you going to be? And he said, Portland or Eugene.

Well, that was my first red flag because those are about 120 miles away from each other. But those are the two cities we had chapters. I think if you're up there for work, I don't know what city you're working. And he goes, cool. And I go, yeah, let me know if you need anything. He goes, yeah, actually I could use some backup. What do you mean? He goes, I could use some guys for a deal I'm doing.

and he goes, I don't remember the number specifically, but say he said it was something like a thousand bucks. He goes, I'll pay each guy a thousand bucks, because I'll give you the four grand right now, and you get the guys, and I go, nope. And I turn around and walk off. And he goes, brother, I'm talking kilos. So I went right to my chapter president.

I said, hey, this isn't right? Because like we had said a little bit off air too, and I'm sure people have heard before, like, if you're doing illegal stuff, you're not telling some guy you just met, right? You're not going to rope in people you don't know. So it was a huge red flag. And so I called my twin brother,

who's in Oregon still. And I said, hey, if this guy calls, like don't talk to him. Here's what he's going to ask. And then we're at a funeral for a member that had been killed. And this guy comes with my brother. He says the same thing. So now we go to the national president.

And the national president says, all right. Like several years have come by of hearing this stuff about like, this is the last straw. We're going to throw him out. As soon as we get to the cemetery, we're going to pull his patch. So we get to the cemetery, he doesn't show up.

There's feds everywhere, you know, doing surveillance and all that. And two days later, Operation Black Rang concludes and we all get rated. And in the paperwork, it says that member Mooch outed the ATF agent. and we actually had to push up the raids because now, you know, it was at risk. But, but. So he was a full-on ATF agent. It wasn't like he was a snitch.

Yeah, there was three of them. Or it was, I want to say there was, maybe there was four total, and then they each had a girlfriend that was an ATF agent. So there was eight of them, right? But the three or four, they were full-patch members. But one was in Vegas and the other three were in Southern California. So they spent all of that time. Three or four years, man. Just getting into the club, making, making it a part of their identity.

Yeah. It was all. Some of we were getting club tattoos. Like that in federal informant, we had in Eugene. Well, actually, both the informants in Oregon. We're getting clubed. One percent of diamonds, Mongol heads. Like, they were living the life.

But then on the flip side, they were doing the selfish stuff to justify whatever mission they were on. Whether it was an ATA for informant. But one of the things that really discouraging about that ATF stuff is, so they were doing those little things, right? But then the big piece was they were doing the street theater where they'd say, okay, like they tried to do an Oregon. Hey, I need these three guys for backup. And what they meant was they go, they get a hotel room. and it's an undercover ATF agent, and he's selling either confiscated

or fake drugs to an undercover DE agent. So already, in my mind, that's not even a real drug dealer, right? Those are federal agents putting on a show. But then when they ask for support, they'll pay you, say they gave you that thousand bucks, and then they hand you a pistol, because one member didn't bring one,

and he said, I'm good, and they fought it in court saying, oh, that meant he had his own. If you were a felon, they would hand you body armor because it increased your charges. And then you get charged with carrying firearm facilitation of a drug deal,

you know, wearing body armor, facilitation or a drug deal. So you get hit with these major federal charges. And people listening might think, oh, you might be able to fight that. But you got to understand this is under a racketeering indictment, right? So when you're under RICO, right, me and you might have some of the smaller charges, but we can get sentenced the same as everyone else because they're doing racketeering. So say we go to the jury and we try and say, hey, we were just there to support a friend. We weren't carrying guns.

But the other people in this RICO had shot a guy over here or was doing this. How do you think a jury's going to look at you? So fighting these cases is very, very challenging. And so when these feds have such a high conviction rate is because people take plea bargains. You can say, I could fight this and look at 25 years when I found guilty or they'll go, hey, sign this and you can be on three or, you know, whatever it is. And so a lot of these guys, the feds get away with it because no one's really fighting it. And is that entrapment? Is entrapment even a real thing?

Or is that just kind of somebody, somebody won once? Once in the history of the criminal justice system, a defendant fought it under entrapment. And then we all think that that's like something that the government has to worry about. Because it doesn't seem like they give a fuck. It seems like they can do that. They can lie. They can set you up. They can, I mean, the gloves are kind of off.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're allowed to do drugs. You know, they'll say in those books, right, like if they, someone says, hey, man, do this Coke to prove you're not a cop, right? Or whatever they say. And this, I read that it's in the books all the time. And first of all, I've been that club long enough that no one has ever done that from what I've seen, right? Let's test him, see, you know? And also, and most people at bar.

They don't want to give your shit to you if you don't want it, right? But these guys will do it, and then they'll have to fill out. They allegedly fill out some waivers say, you know, it was that or I get, I was out. The case would go over if I didn't do it. And, you know, so they're out there living the lives and having the fun. But yeah, so, you know, that type of stuff starts happening. And then you start seeing the reality of where, like in the entrapment piece, to me, I think it's fictional at this point.

And maybe that's just from my experience. But I won't use the correct wording, I'm sure. But from what I've been told from attorneys and everything else is that, So entrapment would be me talking to something that you had no inclination you would ever do. Like, maybe you're the most rate-laced person and I talk you into doing something with me. The way they get around it in these cases is, well, hey, I asked this guy to go drop off an envelope and he didn't ask what it was. He knew it was illegal, so he did it anyway. Or, yeah, he wasn't opposed to protecting me during this drug deal, right?

So even though they suggested it and they started it, it's something that they could say, oh, he likely would have done it with someone else anyways. And so it's really a hard one to fight, right? No one was like, hey, dude, I don't know, this is illegal. Maybe I shouldn't do it. Yeah. Did you know of any brothers actually beating cases, especially in the federal court? Like George Christie famously beat like several murder conspiracies.

None of the Mongols I know, because I joined in 07 and those big raids were in 08, everyone I know that was involved with that was convicted. Or took plebubarb. They all took plea bars. Not one Mongol ended up taking it to trial. Okay, so tell us about that big 08 Rico case. So that was because of those undercover ATF agents and then all the informants. Doc Kovassas was the National P at the time.

Who was doing illegal stuff? I don't think he started off doing it. But after Laughlin, he became the president. He was bolstering the membership to go to war at the Hells Angels. So he was bringing in a lot of neighborhood street gang guys, a lot of them doing the ride bikes at the time. And some of these guys were doing stuff they did from the streets, right? So found out this chapter is selling drugs or this chapter is doing whatever their neighborhoods used to do. And so they were paying up to him or he was making money off of it.

And so the 100% what racketeering is, right, they were paying their way up. On top of that, you know, we talked a little bit off air, but because there was so many neighborhood street gang members joining that were either kicked out or, you know, dropouts or whatever, there was a lot of beef with, you know, the Mexican Mafia and these other organizations down there. And so, you know, there was gun sales going on between these guys. And obviously there was shootings back and forth. And then on top of that, you think these undercover guys,

they're getting information from that stuff, but B, they're b, they're busting everyone else for stuff that they're not doing. So they had this small group of people that probably doing legal stuff. And the bad part is, one of them was the national boss at the time, right? But then they also were like, hey, let's broaden the scope and get, you know, we want to show that we busted 80 members.

We want to show this was the biggest bust there's ever been. And so that's what they end up doing. And the paperwork, they even said that that case cost taxpayers, so many millions of dollars, they didn't even think they can do a case that big anymore. And at the end of the day, because so many people took plea bargains, there was very few large sentences. A lot of those guys are back in the club now.

Most of them went and did a couple of years, got out, spent out a couple years on paper and on a solicitation and came back to the club. So it didn't put any dent. Like that's my thing, I guess, with this too, is all of the media attention from it actually made the club more popular. And the club at that time, so they tried to, legally, they try to take our trademark. This was like the first time they've ever tried to do it. But it was illegal for about a year to wear anything that said Mongols or the center

patch. legally allowed to pull you over and take it off your back. And, I mean, there were incidents that I'm breaking into cars, taking stuff because they could see it. They were raiding houses. If you had models on your motorcycle, they were able to take it. So, you know, that's what we fought for over 10 years, that little day fought to show how unconstitutional it was. Right. Did you guys end up winning that, I assume? Yeah, yeah.

We did. What was weird about that case is it ended up being, you know, several different superseding indictments. And then there was no, I mean, there was no plaintiff, right? There was like the Mongol nation, but there was no individual. So the Mongol nation did get found guilty of racketeering, but they found that you can't get, they can't take the trademark. But so that the,

the Mongols were fined $500,000. But there wasn't like, no one was going to prison over it. No one was going to be on probation, right? Like it was kind of this weird thing that they hadn't done before. And the big piece of it was trying to get away with taking our trademark. Because if they can do it to the Mongols, who do you think they're going to do it to next?

The next thing you know, it's going to be illegal to wear a patch. Now it's illegal to wear gang colors or, you know, whatever. I mean, we've seen this now. They're doing it in Australia. They just started doing it in Germany. I believe Canada is coming up with some similar laws. And thankfully, since we have a constitution, it's a lot harder to do. Well, the Mongols is an LLC, right? Like, technically, it's incorporated as a company. And the hard part with that was, Doc Kovassos moved it from collective membership marks to his LLC. And like, so he had shotgun production where he was

selling t-shirts in his book. And he had signed a plea bargain, and part of it was he had signed over the rights to the patch. So part of what we were arguing was no one person can have the rights to it, right? He might have transferred it to his name, but that technically wasn't legal and it didn't hold up. So the judge initially, you know, granted the injunction, but then to go back to court, she found more information. She's actually really upset. She said it was very unconstitutional and the government had lied to her about what was going on. And so the the membership marks went back into a collective membership and ended up being safe. But it was like the several long year battle.

And at least a year of it, we weren't even allowed to wear patches. So we had T-shirts at Black and White Nation. Because so many people had been busted and all of stuff going on, I bet that we were down to probably 200 members nationally. But we got her patch back. And now we're in the news all the time for fighting the patch case. You know, now we're on Lisa Ling and we're doing like this positive stuff where people are seeing it. And man, membership just started going through the roof.

Now, the rides that you guys take, especially in big open places, Nevada, California, is it true that you have to let the rivals know, the Hells Angels, the Vagoes, whoever, if you're riding through their territory, is that, is that real? Yes and no. So not to rivals. I would never tell them where I'm going to be. But if it's a club, like when the Mongols and Banditos run good terms, if we had some members that were passing through Texas, we'd probably give up leadership a call.

So because the point of that is we don't want to go bandito or someone get a call, say, Hey, there's Mongols at the gas station. Instead of them sending down people to say, hey, you're hair hanging out. What are you doing? And oh, no, we know they're already passing through. It saves everyone a headache. It's less stress. You know, so it's that court, the courtesy cordial stuff.

If it's one member and he's like riding home, maybe we would. Maybe we wouldn't. If someone's out there at work, we definitely would. So it really just kind of depends on our relationship with that club, what state it is. The big thing, like for the Mongols is, anytime I was in a state or near a chapter of the Mongols, I'd have to let them know them there. Like if I went on vacation, Las Vegas, even if I wasn't wearing club stuff, I still got to let the chapter know. But for the same reason, right, someone's going to call and say, hey, there's this guy down here says he's a Mongol or has a

mogul tattoo. And they'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's Mochi's at your visiting. And so people don't have to mobilize or go figure things out. And then, you know, when those things happen, you go, come to the gas station, what are you doing here, two alpha males there? Even if we're cordial, you know, that might not always go well. So it actually is another way to, like, make sure that things are chill and we maintain peace. Because, even though, I think the drug dealing and the criminality, the organized criminality is exaggerated. The violence has been real, you know, among these clubs, between these clubs. Like the big shootouts you hear about, you know, that one, I think it was down in Louisiana or Florida was a recent one. Yeah.

Well, there were several in Texas recently. For sure. But there were, Laughlin, Nevada was one of the first big one. The Angels model was in a casino, public casino. Like, that was the first big one that actually set off a lot of those undercover investigations. Right. That was when he's, even though, now it comes out, there were several undercover ATF agents at the casino when it happened and some conspiracies that potentially some of those instigated it. But all on record that they were there, right? So they were already keeping an eye on it. But once that happened, that gave them justification. And again, because all the media, it's all over the news, right?

People are saying, I don't, I'm not scared. I'm not comfortable going to casino now because what if these guys start shooting each other. So that was the first big one. And then there was a big one here in Waco, which was a crazy one because that was definitely. It's been proven now. It was definitely instigated by informants. And I'm going to have the numbers incorrect because I don't remember exactly what. Say nine people were shot.

They found out that six of them were shot by law enforcement. So these people weren't even shooting each other. So law enforcement knew ahead of time about this meeting. It was called Confederation and Clubs. And every month or every other month, all the clubs get together and sit down and they talk about politics. Like helmet laws or, you know, legislation. There's no like actual clubs talk. But it's like, you know, everyone getting together and discussing.

like working together, like it's a political movement. And the bandits weren't going. To the one they always go to, it happened to be at that Twin Peaks. And there was another club here that was having some issues with the bandits and knew that them showing up with the Texas Rocker was going to be an issue. And now it's been proven that there was an informant within that group. So on the way to the meeting, that informant said, hey, let's stop at hardware store, grab some tools.

So what's that telling your membership? What's going to happen, right? But law enforcement knew beforehand, so the night before they went up, and they'd not only set up cameras all around this point, which never notified the restaurant, but then they had snipers on the roofs. And so when the bike, the other club came in and there was a little standoff

and the informant or one of the guys from the other club hit the bandito, people start fighting. The cops started shooting. And I mean, I know several members who were shot or the friends were shot that didn't have guns that weren't involved in the incident. And so many of these dudes that got killed

were killed by cops. But then the headline says, right, bikers shoot out, nine dead, you know. And it only came out because Jake, was a he's a bandied by with Dallas was the only one to actually take it to trial so what they did too is they came in they arrested everybody there even if you were in a christian club mom pop club if you're at that c oc they blanket arrested everyone with the same charges for everybody and what was it attempted murder yeah probably they probably just threw the kitchen sink everything yeah it was

everything and a lot of it was like you know the group like as a group right like and so they threw everything at it and kept a lot of these guys a big piece of it a lot of these guys you know that full-time jobs, families, and they kept them in jail for several weeks. A lot of these guys were losing jobs, you know, and they're facing some crazy charges that were put in jail for a long time. And Jake took it to trial, was found not guilty. And they dropped the charges on everyone else because they realized that the way it was done. And when the information started coming to light, I don't know who they would have been

able to find guilty for it, you know. Well, they had it on camera. Yeah. They were filming themselves. They had it on camera. And then they had all the ballistic evidence of what bullets killed who. And it was almost all of it was from law enforcement. So it sounds like almost speaking of Waco, ironic.

It sounds like David Koresh, you know, like the law enforcement just starts squeezing before anything even happens. Yep. I mean, there's some pictures and videos of the other club like kind of shooting towards the crowd and stuff, but there was really no like two members shooting at, you know, shooting at each other.

It was a fight happened or a gunshot happened and then they just started shooting a man, shooting on everybody. So it was basically like a massacre. Yeah, 100%. And then it came, got more public. The district attorney got fired. People had to stand down. But still, you know how this stuff works, right?

Like, there's the initial headline. The follow-up doesn't get the same type of media coverage. Of course not. So everyone knows about Waco and this biker shootout. Not as many people know that the biker are the victims in this case. Wow. And the instigator was the informant. Yeah.

Like he pulled out a gun or something or? Well, I mean, I know what I could factually prove is he stopped to get weapons, which would have instigated it anyways. Right. Now, I've heard he was also the one that had the gun out, but I can't confirm it. But either way, they were there to instigate. Say, for example, he was in leadership and we're going to go down there and I don't care what these bandito say we're going to do this, right?

Like they were riled up when they got there. Yeah. So, you know, that, but that one's more of the caveat. When we start talking about the violence, that was like the second major one, I guess what I was getting at. But since then, and I don't know, I'd love to say it's just because of social media, but it is just more prevalent in general. And I think it's also because the clothes are growing so much and going to other close

territories, but it seems to be happening a lot more, right? Public shootouts, shootings of gas stations or at events. And that's the one thing where I can't deny, right? I'll openly admit that I really don't think, at least from my experience, that clubs aren't doing inherently criminal stuff as far as making money. In fact, it costs so much money to be in a club. You're paying dues, you're going on trips, you're spending gas in your hotels, you're taking time away from work. You know what I mean? Like, there's no financial gain to being in a motorcycle club. But when it comes to the illegal piece, the violence. Were the Mongols, I mean,

you know, their reputation precedes them, right? Did you know of any shootouts that your own chapters got involved in? There will be times we've been shot at. There has been times where things escalated quickly. There was never anything I was involved in where we like had planned to go attack a shoot of people. But for example, I was in when I was in the Vagos,

because I was in the Vagos for two years before I went to the Mongos. And we were at a big national run in Las Vegas and it was like the Harley Drags. and the Vagoes had just started a chapter, restarted a chapter in Arizona, and the Hells Angels weren't super happy about it. So there's Hells Angels there. Everyone kind of just,

there was side looks, but no one was paying attention. But the Vago's a way different club now. Like when I was in, they weren't as big, they weren't as organized. And at that time, I kept thinking,

this is kind of weird because they're thinking there might be some issue, but half the group just left. And so the angels waited until there was a smaller group of guys. And we were getting ready to leave and an angel comes up,

says, grabs the guy, the Arizona Rocker and goes, hey, my boss wants to talk to you. So the, the vagus do what most people do that they don't have experience that stuff as they group up right and then some angels stand around him i remember looking at my brother going this doesn't look good right so we kind of took a step out of the circle and i look back and there's guys in cars with rifles and it's like fuck dude like we were told not to bring weapons i'm a felon so i couldn't bring i'm not anymore

by the time i was i couldn't bring a gun anyways and most of us from out of state and uh so i'm like man this looks bad and then i look over in a prospects as a saddlebag open a hell's angel prospect and he's handing pistols to members and i look at my brother and we look at this older vago and I go, dude, look what's going on. He goes, yeah, if they start shooting, we're going to charge them. I was like, that's our plan. That's great. And then, you know, law enforcement came in on horseback and helicopters and it got broken up.

So things like that happened. Yeah. And the hard part is the risk for that is relatively high these days, right? Like, I feel like in my era going for the pumpkin skin, I'd seen you get in fist fights. Where's case in there? Maybe someone got hit with a bottle or stab. But there wasn't shootings, really, you know? And we think even in the gang scene that's gotten way worse than it used to be.

And I don't mean like in a gun control way. I just think back when I was talking about how people playing a role, right? I don't like getting beat up. I don't think anyone does, but I'm not scared of it, right? Too many people are scared to get punched in the face. And so their first reaction I was going to shoot. And for an example, in Illinois, we used to be really close to the outlaws. And so they got to know us really well.

And I have a lot of friends in that club that are great, dude, so I'm not trying to disparage the club anyway. But that region I was in, they were fun to hang out with. But these weren't people I would, like, invite over and barbecue or like, you know, it was quick ride. stopped by, I say, we'll have a drink all good times, but that was where it stopped, right? And I would, they would meet my guys and they used to, well, hey, Mooch, how do you get all these big, you know, big strong guys that they don't know anything about, a lot of people that don't know anything about jujitsu, who thinks that means you're an MMA fighter, right? So, like, all you guys are

all MMA guys. And I was like, well, because I meet guys at the gym. And I thought, you know, I'm not just going to the same bars. But when I first moved out there, they had said, yeah, there was the only one small hells angel chapter in that area. And I remember tripping me out because they were like older guys, they weren't real tough looking dudes. And, you know, coming from the West Coast or San Diego. like whether we liked angels or not, they were very formidable enemies, you know. And so I had mentioned it.

And they go, yeah, every now and again, we run into each other. We get a fight at the gas station or whatever. Fiss fight. I was like, fist fight. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. And I was like, and then we go around the way. I was like, dude, it's like Disneyland.

Like, don't be wrong. I didn't want to get in a fight, but I was also like, that's the worst that could happen. Right. But as we got closer with them and they saw that our guys trained and all this stuff that when we did have issues, they were too scared to get beat up. So people were pulling guns out all the time.

Mm-hmm. So you're saying the Mongols are tougher than most of the other clubs. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying, because there's definitely some badass dudes in all clubs and all regions. In that area where I was at, we probably, yeah, we had the tougher chapter for sure. But as a club as a whole, I wouldn't be able to say that because there's a lot of, you know, really bad at gangs or down-ass dudes and the angels. I know the outlaws have, like, because the cultures changed there too where instead of it being like older beerbelly dudes, there was a lot more dudes that came from the punk rock and hardcore scene or, dudes that grew up in crews or gangs that, you know, they aren't scared to fight. And a lot of those, and nowadays, too, like I said, I had that region in my rule of my region where everyone had to work out three days a week.

And it wasn't necessarily for looks either. There was all the positive health benefits working out, right? But also, I remember early years the club thinking, man, we just sit around on a bar stool and talk to each other. Like, you get to know someone way more if we're doing jiu-jitsu together. We're at the gym working out together. And on top of that, the positive piece came, man, if we're sitting around drinking next thing, talking shit about somebody or bad mouthing.

So there was all these positive effects where everyone was happier, they were in shape. You know, we were spending time together but was doing positive things. And it was this positive influence. And I noticed that culture shifting a little bit more too where a lot of the guys that grew up like I did from the hardcore scene or joining clubs,

they were into working out too or training. And so there's a lot of big and shape guys that not a fight in all clubs at this point. It's not that old school like, you know, the beerbellied long hair biker. Right, the big white beard. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one thing

to a positive impact I think I had in that club was that when I first started coming around motorcycle clubs, all the old school guys would be like, yeah, welcome to the nightmare, you're going to lose your old lady, you're going to lose your job, you're going to end up, you know, death or jail. And I was thinking, as more people were coming to me wanting to join, I was like, man, I mean, you went to high school and you were my close friend.

I'm like, hey, yeah, come on in, let me ruin your life, you know. Or I didn't want people to go, yeah, my life was great, so I started kicking it with mooch. Like, I don't want to take that on like that, right? And so having these workout rules and no methamphetamines, like, and at least in my chapter, I'm a mental health therapist,

so I got these alpha male gangster 1%. Tell me how they feel, you know what I mean? But I wanted to be like, hey, I joined the Mongols and it made my life better. Not I joined and it made it worse. And a big piece of that too was,

like I said, I didn't want someone to come in and it ruined them. And a lot of times old friends would hit me up. I actually just had this discussion with a friend the other day where he had called me back then and goes, dude,

my old lady left me, I got fire from my job. I might as well join the club. And I said, fuck off, dude. I go, come to me. When you're in a relationship, you're paying your bills, you own your house. I want to see you have your shit together because you've come at me when you're low,

your life gets better, you're out, right? And it also, there's so many personality traits in there, right? Like, how are you going to show up to meetings? How are you going to pay your dues? How can I depend on you if your family can't, if your job can't? And so I think that piece too, where it's like now these get a lot of people that work, you know, the people you surround yourself with, right, reflects who you are. And so these guys are having jobs and are in good shape and, you know, outside of some recreational party,

No one's like a drug addict and no one's, you know, we're not allowed to get drunk at bars. We don't stay out late. The other part two is everyone, like in my regions, everyone had to be polite in public. Like I hated walking into a bar and heads saying, fuck, these guys are here, right? Or, hey, no patches. You guys are you guys. I loved when I walked into the neighborhood bar and I'm like, what's up, guys? And my big thing is, you know, you go into those bars like that with a day to say they don't know you.

And you know, we walk in with 12 Mongols. It's intimidating. I understand what it looks like. We've all been there to one side or the other. But what I liked is most time when we left, people say, man, I wouldn't fuck with those guys, but they were great, right? That's the reputation I tried to switch over to. Because you want to be liked by the public, man.

A, those are your jury members, right? But just as an individual, I don't want to be that guy that's hated everywhere it goes. Oh, here comes mooch again. You know, like, I'm sure people remember younger days going to parties. He's here. You know what I mean? And so it's like, that was a big positive shift. And I think I see that shifting in some clubs, at least, that's shifting more, too.

When you were in a position of power, so you're the regional manager? Yeah, as a regional boss. Regional boss. Regional representative, yeah, yeah. How many different territories were you overseeing? So I started, I've always been a chapter president because I've started a different chapter. Well, not always, but for the most, but I started as a chapter president. And then once we just developed this regional representative program, I oversaw the Northwest.

It was Oregon and Washington and then northern Idaho. Around that time, I started helping out and then overseeing a lot of the outer country chapter. So there was Canada. I helped start that Australia chapter Thailand. There was a chapter in Brazil that was looking at like kind of overseeing. and Germany. And so there was a big, you know, there was a lot, that was a lot on my plate. Yeah.

And then I moved to the Midwest and, man, I've never been liking that crave for power type guy. Like, I feel like I fell in those positions because I was good at it. But anytime I had a chance to bring someone else up or take something off my plate, if the right guy for the job came along, I'd pass it off. So say, started a chapter and I was the president. But after six months, I'd be like, hey, so in so-and-so should wrong for P. He's going to do better out. Because I've been the same guy no matter what.

I can sit in the same room in the same circle and I'm going to say the same thing, have the same voice so the title doesn't mean much to me and so when i moved to the midwest my brother took over the northwest or another member took over Washington um and so i oversaw a lot of different areas but not all the same time i ended up like the out of country stuff i shut down a lot of chapters out the country and then another member from california started helping out of out of country stuff so then i had indiana illinois missouri and tennessee or like my main ones and you know when i just as an example about how things grew so i went out there to kind of just focus on jiu jihitsu I was kind of, I wasn't retired from the club, but, you know, there was no, there was no mongles in Illinois.

And it's like, maybe this would be, I was already in for over 10 years. And I was kind of burnt out. I was wanting to take the step back. And when I moved out there, there was two members left in Kansas City chapter. That was it for all of Missouri. There was no, none in Illinois. There was one or two chapters in Indiana. And it didn't take long before, you know, friends of friends were reaching out.

I was hanging out with us dudes from the hardcore crew from called BDC that wanted to be Mongols. And these were dudes I was already partying with. And I started thinking, man, you know, I was trying to take a step back. but would it be selfish of me not let them bring them in from it? So then I got wrapped back up into it. And by the time I left that region, we had three full chapters and four chapters in Missouri, two in Illinois and five in Indiana and two in Tennessee.

Wow. So my time there, things grew. And I'm not saying I was responsible for all of it, but I helped out with a lot of it, you know. So with having that power, were you ever, was ever a situation where somebody, an informant, an ATF agent undercover came at, you trying to entrap you the way they did with George Christie?

You know, I feel like that happened to me very early on. Like when we started Oregon. Like the cops didn't want us in Oregon. There was that task force. It was ATF and local law enforcement of Eugene. They didn't want us there. And that's when I was those informants were there. That's why when I was in California, that ATF guy was targeting me.

But I think, like I didn't see it as much by the time I got to Midwest. And I'd like to think it's because a lot of the law enforcement guys that follow motorcycle clubs, you know, they're regular. It's like most people, you'd say, oh, Steve Cook up there in Missouri, like, oh yeah, man, I've heard of Steve, or I know someone that knows Steve. And a lot of these guys, I think,

saw, especially like when Little Dave took over, for example, that he was cutting down on the criminality. He was, the way he structured and ran in the club was keeping people out of trouble. And I think, I would like to think that some law enforcement was supporting that, right? Or the biker gang in best of years. And so I didn't see it so much in the Midwest after that.

But also, like I said, I wasn't doing crazy legal stuff. Like, I heard a podcast recently about some dude that said he was with the Department of Justice and was retired in that, that he said, yeah, everything was cool here until the vice president of the Mongols, which wasn't even my title, moved here, and then also the methamphetamine scene exploded and all this made-up stuff. But I'm thinking, man, I'd been there for seven years.

Never been arrested for any of that stuff, right? None of my members ever been arrested for any of that stuff. So I think there was kind of the narrative from local cops. As far as like federal law enforcement and any biker gang investigators, you know, we were staying out of trouble. And I think if you're a leader that keeps your guys out of trouble, you're likely going to be under less scrutiny. Yeah, yeah. It's like if you ever heard of Mexican car,

Hells. Maybe that's the reason. Yeah. Meth explodes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So what did you end up going to jail for? Because you did have small cases here and there. Yeah. So I had a juvenile felony at 16 and then right after 18, I went before assault. After 18, I got an assault felony. And then I had about four misdemeanor assaults. But this is all before going into the club. And actually, I've told people before, the club kept me out of trouble because as a youngster you know i was up trying to prove myself as thought i was to social

justice warrior fighting nazis and going to punk shows and i was getting arrested a lot and thank god it was pre-internet pre-cell phones back then if you got arrested for fighting you probably got caught on the scene right yeah like or i have an identical twin so sometimes it wasn't hard to figure out like oh it was the twins but for the most part it wasn't this like cameras everywhere you know um so because we were fighting a lot but when i joined the club wearing that patch would any decision i made it was going to affect everyone else. On top of that, I know how hard the law enforcement didn't want us there. So if I went out and got a bar fight, A, I'm likely going to get locked up.

B, they put risk for the brothers. And so it really provided this extra step where I had to start thinking, like, is this worth it? The other piece to it is when I joined the club, I stopped drinking because I was in leadership. We were going out in public a lot. I wanted to make sure that I was, you know, aware of my surroundings. That was always on point. So the club kept me out of trouble. Where I got arrested, which is crazy, is we were, you know,

like I told you before, the local clubs in Oregon didn't want us to be there. So it was kind of this cold war, right? A lot of rumors going on. Now I know there was informants stirring things up with law enforcement. So there was all these threats going back and forth. And a newspaper article had come out that said, you know, back on the news was newspaper was the thing. And the headline on the Sunday paper was Magel War coming or Biker War coming to Oregon. And so everyone was on high alert, right?

Everything's jacked up. And the main club there in Oregon, the Wayne Memorial Center Club is called the Gypsy Jokers. and I was in Salem. That's where their headquarters are too. And so this newspaper article came out on Sunday, and I think this was Monday. My parents lived on 140 acres, and they had a house up on the hill.

I mean, my twin brother lived in this little house down below, but quarter mile driving, half mile driveway, three no trespassing signs. Like, you wouldn't just show up out there, right? So I'm in a pickup truck heading to Portland, and I'm by myself, and I'm driving down my driveway, and this all-black SUV comes up

with Washington plates, tinted windows. It sees me and it stops. And we're both kind of just staring at each other in the lane. I couldn't see. I saw there was two people in the caller, but I couldn't see who they were. And my first thought was trying to be reasonable. Maybe they're lost, right?

And so they can, we kind of sit there for a minute, and I'm a felon, so I'm not carrying down or anything with me either. So I wasn't super confident. I was just walking up on them. So I'm trying to figure it out, and slowly they kind of turn around.

They go back down the driveway. And so we're at the end of the driveway, and if you go left, which was the way I was going to go, that would be north. It would take me to the Interstate 5 so I can go north. They turned right. And in my head,

I really, no bullshit, I can remember that moment where I go, am I going to regret taking a right right now? But I was curious. I didn't want to leave seven see me leave and now no one's there. Like, you know, I didn't know. I was wanting to figure it out.

And I was like, maybe I'll just fall into the interstate. Probably realize it was someone that was lost. No big deal. So I get behind them and I notice now they're looking back at me. They're kind of getting freaked sketched out. And then when we get to the interstate, which is about five mile drive by the time I get to the interstate, now they're going north.

So now I'm like, well, that's weird. Because if they knew where they're at and they were going north, they went on the other way. the minute we get on interstate they try and ditch me in and out of traffic and so like now i'm following i got this little chase going and all of a sudden they jump over far like three lanes of traffic they take the exit and the gypsy joker clubhouse was there and the gypsy joker clubhouse was down through a neighborhood and on a coltacacacac so you wouldn't accidentally go there right so they go to the gypsy joker clubhouse well i didn't want to follow them down the dead end by myself so i sit across the street watching them

and they crack the window out just enough where the guy in the shotgun position points his finger out the window is this. Now I can't see him, but I see his hand. So I'm sitting there, I start calling some of the other Mongols. Hey man, I don't know what's going on, but obviously these guys are. It went from, I wonder who they are, to these guys are enemies to some extent, right? They're at the clubhouse of the club that's supposed to be after us. This guy's doing finger guns at me. He's got Washington license plates, which the hell's angels are in Washington and the Joker's from Washington. So it was all these red flags. So the car, they finally leave and they get back on the interstate, but now they start heading back south. And I thought maybe they thought that they lost me since I

was sitting across the street and then I'd move. And so now I'm thinking, where are they heading back to my house? Why are they going back south? So I get back in the car and they drove over 60 miles to Eugene from Salem. And in the meantime, I'd been calling ahead to some other Mongols. My twin brother was in a car behind me trying to catch up. And then I had two Mongols and Eugene getting cars. And I said, just sit off the freeway when we pass you jump in.

And the goal was if they're not going to let me get up and see, look in their window, maybe these other cars they wouldn't recognize can. We can at least figure out who these guys are, what they look like. So we pull into Eugene. So 60, I was been. like over an hour, right? I'm following these guys. And they come in the middle lane. I pull up behind them. Another car pulls up next to them and then one of our hangarounds gets in the front of them. So essentially we boxed them in, right? As soon as we did that, they hit their, they hit a siren.

And I was still so dead set, dude, that I was like looking around for the siren, you know? And then all of a sudden, they jumped over two lanes to take the exit. And when they did, the car that was next to him pulled in front of him and slammed on his brakes to try and slow him down. So then they hit their lights. So then they had, I go, fuck, these are fucking cops. Someone else took off, but in my head, I'm like, we didn't do anything. Like, you know what I mean? I followed these guys. So a cop was making

a finger gun at? Yeah, it was an ATF agent and a Eugene police detective. And these are the same. So before I said that there was a victim of my crime, these were the two handlers of the two informants. Okay. And when my house got raided, we had the only house where every door got kicked in, and those were the two dudes that did it.

But there's a million overlaps. But anyway, so they got their lights on. So I start using my signals to show that I'm going to going to this parking lot so that ATF agent a few months before had walked up to us that club the free souls that were cool with now but at the time they were supposed to be beef they were having this big national run and so there's not going to be many Mongols here so we made it a point to go bar hop and that's just because we're young and stupid to make a presence right and that ATF agent had walked up and hey you know they're out Mongol hunting they're trying to kill you guys we have this

credible uh you know we have to let you know that there's a credible threat we were asking you guys to stay at the hotel which we didn't but that's why I knew he was and uh because the first time I ever seen the ATF agent in real life. And from movies and shit, I thought it was to be some military looking and like, and there was this fat dude with New Balance shooters. And so I knew, so then I was like, I wonder if this is that guy, you know. And so we pull into a parking lot and he pulls in and there facing me. And I'm just sitting there waiting for someone to get out.

Now where I was fucked as I was wearing leather gloves and I had two phones next to me because, you know, I didn't know what was going to happen. And I kept thinking he's going to walk up and talk to me because I assume that's who's got to be. The reason they say they didn't gather car is that Eugene detective. sometimes went undercover or he'd like walked into a bar I was in once, right? And he wanted me to recognize him. So no one comes out.

So we're kind of doing a standoff. And then I look in my mirror, dude, and I've got like 30 cops around me, guns out, get out of the car. I was like, fuck, I'm about to get beat up or shot. So they pull me out of the car. They handcuffed me. And this ATA effuge who walks up and he's smiling. And now I only know from the discovery, because I took this to trial, that one of the cops, obviously, their cars record, right? And he said, oh, we're recording.

So they turned the radio up real loud. Well, in reality, he walked up and he says to me, What was that, man? And he was laughing it off. And he was like, oh, we were going to see how far you fell to see if we run out of gas. He kept calling a game of cat and mouse. He was like joking about it. And eventually he got to point and goes, man, I know you didn't do anything wrong.

We're going to cut you loose in a minute. But man, you're Nathan, he shouldn't have swerved at us. And, you know, I wasn't going to be like, yeah, he shouldn't because I didn't want to acknowledge anyone who was there. So I just nodded. And dude, I'm starving. There's a quiz. I was across street. They never realized my twin brother was there with the people in his car.

So they were across the street. And my aunt was there filming with the camcourt. and I'm thinking, okay, I see my family. You know, I'm like, cool, I'm going to get out of here. Next, you know, I'm in handcuffs. I'm in the back of this car. No one's telling me why. And they got law, like, police motorcycle in front behind us.

And they're taking me into the police station, like, I'm the fucking president. And I'm still not tripping. You know, I was like, I couldn't imagine what I could get arrested for in this. Right. What's your charge? Yeah. And so I get handcuffed. I sat there forever.

And normally when you're another rule for the models is you don't talk, right? You ask for an attorney. And that should be everybody's rule anyway. That's the law enforcement's rule. Why should be anybody else? And do you guys have attorneys per region? Like, do you guys have attorneys on? We kind of used to, but again, with that RICO thing, it kind of got sketchy.

And then some chapters do or maybe I, you know, maybe I worked with attorney enough that I could recommend an attorney. But I didn't. And so the two co-defendants, they just both allured up. They didn't do the interrogation. And I don't know. It was a good move on my end. But at the time, I was just thinking, what's the risk, right? I want them on tape saying, this is a game of cat and mouse.

And again, I didn't think I was risking anything. So I do the interrogation And I got this cop to admit that It was fun in games, a game of cat and mouse And all this stuff And so again, I'm like, I'm glad to be out of here And then they go they were charging you or going to jail I go for what?

And then he said first he goes, attempted assault Well first he goes, I don't know And he goes probably attempted assault And it's kind of smart Right, I was like, jails were overcrowded as fuck at the time They weren't holding anybody for it. I was like, cool, I'll be out in the morning, I'll be deal.

So I get put in the jail And then in the morning I go to court and instead of going into the room with all the other inmates, they put me in a cell by myself, and I see my co-defendants walked by a pale white. I'm like, well, that can't be good, you know. They slide my indictment under the door, and I attempted kidnapping a federal agent,

conspiracy to commit kidnapping a federal agent, a lawfully use of a firearm, eight felonies total. And bail bond was set at $1.5 million. And then I had a bond reduction hearing, so it went down to $1 million. So I sat there the whole time, right? And it ended up being in almost three months,

and I fought it. And this was when that point, too where again I was young and naive where I knew cops lie but I didn't think they'd blatantly make stuff up right this ATF agent takes to stand and that moment where he had walked up was laughing and stuff but he had turned the radio up

he goes this was me screaming out of because I was in fear for my life our guns were unbuckled we thought they were trying to run us off the road and I was like dude what the F you know thankfully my attorney was a really good attorney and this was federal court this was all state charges okay okay but it was against law enforcement I got you

but thankfully my attorney like he wouldn't film to the direction it would take for them to get to the clubhouse because they were saying it was all act they didn't even know they were from the gyps you of a clubhouse like you know all this type of stuff and the the jury found it all pretty not credible a law enforcement side but i was found guilty of reckless driving which is a misdemeanor and menacing misdemeanor so here the plea bargain they offered me was two years and and because i was in county for so long i was like really thinking about it because i was like dude i'm losing my mind dude i was on 23-half hour a day lockdown the whole time

and i was like man at least prison i can you know you're in lane county Yeah. Lane County, Eugene Orr. Yep. Yep. So, and this was during like budget crisis and the one, there was that federal budget crisis because of the timber loss. There was all sorts of political moments too going on, right? Some in the paper every day, the guard would take me out of my cell to watch me, watch myself on the news. So, you know, I was, I'm looking at some serious prison time. I get found not guilty. I get found guilty of the misdemeanors. Well, the judge was not a big, wasn't very sympathetic to my case. And she sentenced me to five years felony gang probation and one full year in county jail, which is the max you can get for misdemeanors. So I get sentenced to a year in county jail. I go back, I think I spent two more days before I got kicked out and put on road crew because they have a thing called the, you know, sentencing guidelines with the matrix, right? And the matrix essentially this jail is so crowded that what threat are you to, but what's your charge present to your threat on this? And when it's reckless driving.

So they're not going to keep me. So I'm looking out my window and there's all these camera, you know, newspaper people everywhere, reporters. And someone goes, I bet this is for you. And I was like, right. No way, dude. And sure shit, they made this big news thing that they. They had to kick this big Mongolia out early. Yeah.

And a small town sensationalism. Yeah, man. And a small piece that is really important, so I don't want to forget it to, is during my trial, they had at least 15 cops in my, during my trial, like, in front of the jury. And my attorney had, you know, objected to it. And they said, winning 15 cops in the courtroom. In uniform as, like, security, which can you imagine how that would influence the jury, right? Because Mongols, you can't come there wear your Mongol patch in there because it's influencing the jury. And so they're in there doing that.

And so we ask the jury to leave and we question them. They say, oh, well, we have credible information from an informant, which again, now we know who they are, that they're going to try and bust mooch out of jail. Now, mind you, dude, I was looking at what I thought was only a couple years. And so they believe this shit. So they were so convinced that then they put the jail on lockdown because someone wrote a motorcycle by and they said there was a suspicious package that they were going to bust me out like this was some old Western movie. But everything they could to influence the jury and put it in the paper that here's this big, crazy Mongol leader that's this big risk, this society that tried to run kid cops up,

try to kidnap some cops, you know? So it was obviously a huge thing. And so when I got out, like I said, I was on non-associating probation, which means I wasn't allowed to hang up with my twin brother. I fought that, but still lost. And I kept getting caught, hanging out of the club.

So I said, fuck it. I moved to San Diego because I said, oh, they're not going to bring me back, you know. Right. But I was there eight months, and Black Rain hit. And everyone I knew there was busted. So then I got bused. It went home.

So every time I went, back was like for two, you know, somewhere two or three months at a time and it was all 23 and a hour day lockdown. Right. So you're just going back for like probation violations essentially. Yeah. But probably four or five times, which is when I finally won the last time, the last time I was there, 2008, the guard said, hey, I came back and he goes, man, I lost a bet. I lost a bet.

He goes, you don't belong here, dude. I really, I bet these guys you wouldn't come back. And I remember looking around and nothing against the people that were in there, but I was like, I'm not doing illegal shit. I'm not, you know, I was not addicted to drugs and I wasn't, you know, robbing people. and that's really when I got out that's really what motivated when we go back to school

because I was like I need to have some sort of future man like this revolving door of jail is not benefiting anybody and thankfully like I said I started as a drug and alcohol counselor or going to school for that because I figured that's something you can do with the record

and you know I have tattoos on my head and everything and then I love philomal of psychology so it kept going and at the final year of my master's degree we started doing internships and it was offered an internship

at the Oregon Youth Authority which is what I wanted to do, I wanted to be a therapist for the kids to do authority. So I do the interviews. I get hired and they give me an address to where I got to go for training. I don't think anything about it. I'm all excited, you know. I drive to the training and it's the Oregon State Police Academy, dude, in Salem.

And I pull in and I text my wife and I was like, I know I'm not, I'm a little cocky, but someone in here got to know who I am. Like, this can't be good. And unbeknownst to me, as soon as I get out of the car, I walk by this cop in full uniform, turned out was the Oregon State Chief Police and he's just mad dogging me. And, you know, still, I'm like, dude, I'm here to be a therapist. Like, how much trouble can I get in? Halfway through the day, I get pulled out.

Are you infiltrating? Why are you here? They had this, turn this whole narrative that I went to school for eight years and spent 150 grand so that I could go to the Oregon Youth Authority and recruit people from my gang. 15, 16-year-old kids that don't ride motorcycles. So I got fired. Air laid off from this internship. But I sued them, and I won.

So now I'm graduating from school. I just won this lawsuit. Mongol leaders who's the state of Oregon and every newspaper and I was like you know what it's might be time to leave

and so that's ended up why I moved out to Illinois and then you started opening up chapters and kind of the rest of history yeah it's really fascinating

like we all know thanks to the internet like it's all kind of coming out about how much of a lie everything has been since like the last hundred years and when

I look at the, hear more and more stories from 1% clubs about these completely bullshit fabricated, made up cases that the government's put on them. You know, and you think about the propaganda. It's like, and part of it's your fault. Like, you put that image out. 100%. I'm almost tattoo in the back of my head. You know what I mean?

Right, right. But, um, it's really just a fraternity where people want to look cool. It's just an identity. Absolutely. You know? 100%. And, you know, like, I joined a motorcycle club because I love, riding motorcycles

with party with my friends but there was that sense of belonging right I'm an identical twin you know I got into punk rock and skinhead because it was an identity I joined a skinhead gang because that was you know I had the community

right so and I'm not saying any of that's a positive but that's what drew me to it but it's the idea of hanging out with like-minded people man you know we get to be on our bikes and party and have fun and I can count on this guy

this guy's my brother that's what draws everyone into it people don't go I'm going to join this so I can be a super criminal I'm gonna make all this money and do that and that's where like you said the lies and the naked that's where i don't comprehend it like i didn't understand during my trial they didn't want mongols in oregon what they don't understand right is how i went to

prison my brother someone else is going to be the president it's still going to grow but to them they have this old school mentality of oh it's mooch he's doing all this so if we got him even if he didn't do this but we're going to justify lying about it to get them busted now we won't have mongols here have you know with mongols and mexicans they bring drugs and they're going to fight up you know like their whole narrative was built off of let's just cut the head off the snake but like they learned in black rain or they should anywhere should know by now is no one person like little days no longer national p guess what the mogul's still there like no one person has that much effect on club life or on gangs or anything really like

think about oh chopo and all this stuff right people get busted someone else takes this place so why are you guys a one percent club knowing that what we know now that the one percent clubs are not inherently criminal organizations we're not formed for that reason like the mafia for example right they just happen to have tough dudes a lot of them were funding the outlaw lifestyle through crime, right? Like George Christie said, like, in his heyday, he said maybe, like, out of 10 dudes in a chapter of the Hells Angels, four would be like career criminals.

Yeah. And some of those, like you said, like you want to spend more time on the road with your brothers, right? You want to go to all the parties. You want to make sure you can hit all the clubhouses, having a full-time job, especially back then. It was difficult, right? So some guys, sure, got involved in stuff to pay to keep going on the road

or to not have a full-time job, especially in George Christie's era. Like, that was a big thing. They were counterculture. They're outside of society. Right. And they had no moral obligations or ethical, you know, dilemmas about it. But it wasn't they were trying to be organized criminals.

They were just like, yeah, man, if I sell a little bit this, we do a little bad, that funds my lifestyle. Exactly. So does what makes you 1%. So this is controversial. My answer is going to be controversial because I get it a lot. As you know, everyone knows the old adage that how the 1% started. And there were the, the group that got kicked out of the American. racing motorcycles.

And they were saying, you know, the 1% is the ones that cause problems. And so those 1% are clubs or the outlaw clubs. We're outlaw as far as they weren't affiliated with the racing organization, right? They weren't sanctioned clubs anymore. Law enforcement took that as they're the 1% that don't follow rules. And, and you know, that era too, again, we talked about the counterculture of the anti-society and stuff like that or, you know, outside of society. To me, what 1% means nowadays is you're a member of one of the dominant clubs.

And when I say dominant, the regional club that oversees, you know, that has the like banditos in Texas or the, you know, outlaws in Illinois, like those are the 1% clubs. You know, in my mind, there's like six to eight of them. They've been here since the 60s. They have their region. And they're the ones that they call the dominant club, right? Like they have support clubs or when other clubs want to start up. They generally have to ask that club for permission.

Another club, like, who do you call when you travel through? You know, those types of things. To me, that's what the 1% are club is nowadays. That's what that means is you are the top tier of motorcycle clubs. I don't think it has anything to do with criminality. or anything like that. I mean, it can't anymore. We've talked about it for a while.

Like, you really, you have such a spotlight on you that how much, and everyone has cell phones and informants and everything. And the laws, I mean, how criminal can you be if you want a club to exist? Right. So to me, it's more like, hey, it's a top tier club. Being a one percenter, like, here's something else controversial, but it's usually from dropouts. But in my opinion, I don't call myself one percenter anymore.

To me, to be a one percenter, you're a member of a one percenter organization. When you leave that, sure, do I still live? I live the same life. always have, but that, to me, that didn't make me one-percenter because, again, then you're going back to saying one-percenter means that I'm outside of the norm and I'm doing this criminal shit. And to me, being one-per-to-me was I was a member of one-per-per-per-per-per-mer motorcycle club. Like, I no longer wear one-per-per-per-pendance or rings or, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So when you leave the Mongols, you, how does that work? I mean, I know there's various ways to leave, right? You can be bad. You can get your rocker ripped off. There's a few ways. And what's kind of funny, too, and this goes back to these false narratives, is when I had told even close friends that I left the club.

They're like, I didn't know you could do that. And blood in blood out. Yeah, and I know, you know, there's that old narrative from back of the day. But for me, what's funny is what people don't realize is as long as I was in leadership, I saw more people quit than join, right? Like, and people, what were people that think make mistakes or don't understand fully is the early generation of motorists, like the early Hells Angels stuff. These guys were in the early 20s, dog.

they got married in careers and they were most of them like if you look at outlaw archives and he has like all those old history of these guys most of them the original members and stuff they were in for five six seven years they became adults and things changed and they can no longer you know just be out on the bikes with the boys all the time and so you know as as that has progressed I think it's a challenge it's hard to stay in a club your whole life if you are also doing positive things in your life you're working family kids it's really hard to balance that and you know I have a podcast called patch podcast where a lot of it as we do is look at the mental health effect. It has on club life because when you're in it, your blinders are on your 110%. I mean, I was. We all are, you should be, right? If you should be in, if you're all, you're all in. But a lot of people that have left the club. It took a while. But when they're out, they realize, dude, I was neglecting with time with my kids. I was like, every weekend you're gone. Like, you really don't bring your certificate another to a lot of events, you know, except for maybe the parties. And it's like, man, man, I wasn't spending time with my wife. I was. And when I was home, I was so distracted,

man. You know, I was in leaderships. My phone's blown up 24 seven. I was always on my phone. and so be able to maintain that lifestyle for that long, very few people can do it. And so a lot of people leave. Who are some of the legends? George Christie is a legend. Yeah. So to live that for like decades and decades.

Absolutely. And now he's out bad. Now he's out bad, right? Yeah. You know, Taco Bowman from the banditos, or from outlaws, I'm sorry, George Wade, some of the early banditos, there's a lot. When you think legends, it's more like, because we know from leadership. Like what did they do as a leader that changed the face of club life, right?

Every club, and I won't say his name because he's still active, but every club has the super gangster, right? The guy that he's been in 40 years, but you still like, you can see in his eyes, a dude's about the business, you know what I mean? And there's those legends, right? But when you think, like, when I think legendary club members, I think of guys that, like, made it, like George, came and made a name for himself and was the epitome of a great member,

or he pin him of a great member, you know? Great honor. Yeah, yeah, for sure. but, you know, he was, he cared about his membership. Yeah. He brought his family members in, like, you know, and guys, here's the other part to is back, when I first joined, I had so much respect for the old school members. A, because I love the history. I left hearing the stories.

The more club culture has changed longer, I was in there, there was less and less original members left or old school members left. Nowadays, with politics and all the drama I've seen, because the clubs changed so much that if you're a nuisance or you're a threat, you get thrown out in bad standings, right? So if you want, when I first joined the legend dude, I was talking about, he said, hey man, if you want to stay in the club, don't get involved in politics. As a new member, that made sense. But for someone that cares about my club and the well-being of my club, why would I not voice my opinion? Why would I not stand up saying, hey, I don't think this is a good move. I don't think this is right. Now it's a, you know, we vote on it and then the president makes his decision.

And if there was times like me and Dave would disagree on a topic, but once he said, hey, here's what we're doing. Okay, I'm in. But I would always voice my opinion. So how can you stay out of politics if you care about? especially if like for me i started chapters i was in charge of regions how do you stay out of politics right like i go okay yeah yeah that's fine or or when i have to sit down like i did all the sit downs with the maddits and or at the outlaws and a lot of the major clubs like how do i stay out of politics right and so i look at it now and this is going to sound disrespectful and i guess it is

but the people are still in that oh that guy's been 40 years all i can think of is maybe he was i'm sure he was a great member but at this day and age he's a guy that sits in the back of the room and won't raise his hand and i don't raise his hand and i don't I don't have a lot of respect for that anymore because how many people get kicked out. And so to go back and answer a question about leaving the club is after Black Rain, a ton of people quit, right? Tons. Black Rain was that big, the big raids.

The 08, O'A, O'RICO, and Diamond. The club got super small, you know, right before that, you know, the Mongols were having that issue with the Mexican Mafia. I'd said, they're what the hell's angels, lost a lot of members. And so I think Doc's first rule was, well, I said, said how Doc was running bolster the numbers. She was bringing people in. And he would tell everyone, just give me five years. Give me five years. So he had a rule that if you five years, remember, you can retire, leaving good standing. A lot of us that stayed in after all that didn't,

you know, saw so many people quit. And, you know, when you're in and people quit, even if it's for good reasons. Like, I'm very guilty of it. But when people quit, you, you see it as they're leaving you, right? That's not what's, it's for the greater good. It's not for the brother. They're leaving you. And obviously outside of that, I know how really, how crazy that is. But when you're in, those are the blinders you have on. And so we all changed the rule that you couldn't leave the club. And you couldn't retire unless you've been in for 10 years. Now, the caveat to that would be leaving the club.

So, you know, say someone's on parole for the next five years. Well, I'm not going to make him be an actor. Remember he's going to get in trouble, right? Or the guy that's going through a divorce or custody battle. Now he's a single dad and he's got to work two jobs. What kind of brother am I going to be if I say, you can't leave, dog, you know? So there's those leaving in good standings or retired. So good standards is just kind of you're out.

Retired, you get to keep your, at least in the Mongols, you get to keep your patch, your club tattoos. They can still attend parties and still wear their patch when they ride even. Out is you don't have the club stuff, but you can still talk to members and see people. And then out bad is you're not allowed to have any communication with any member. And if a member is caught having communication with someone out bad, they get kicked out too. So you're out bad, even though you didn't do anything to merit that, it sounds like. So you can't ride, you can't ride with your patch on anymore?

You know, I can't, I don't have my patch. I sent it back. And so when I had set off air, I had actually, I saw the riding on the walls. I was likely going to get pushed out. Politics were changing. And here's another big thing too for me, man, is the morals and values under the new leadership didn't align with mine. And now that, you know, I was in a position. I was very grateful to be in a position where I could kind of build a program following the club's rules, but based more off of my vision, getting people to work out, no meth.

Like, those weren't national rules. Those were in my regions. and when they started taking those things away, or here's the other thing, is an Oregon when we started, you know, we had one chapter, and then we were still small. So we always ran as Oregon was like the Oregon chapter.

And then as we got bigger, I always ran it like, we'd go to an astronaut and we'd all stay together and there would be compliments by it. Everyone's like, oh, that the Oregon program, because we were always together. And if Portland chapter had a party, everyone better go.

But some of the newer leadership, which actually also the older leadership for Dave, but these different leadership styles started being more focused on chapter by chapter. And I think a lot of that is that inherent like Southern California gang culture and neighborhood culture, but my chapter's better than your chapter. Or we have beef.

Not like they're going to fight, but we don't like this. There's all the shit talking. Oh, yeah, they got a function, but I don't like those guys. I'm not going to go. And it's sort of,

to me, that's undermining the brotherhood of the club. And it's undermining leadership, you know, and so seeing the new, the person that took over the way he was doing things. And it was like, no longer were things unified.

It was like, well, you just say I threw a guy out of my chapter or, or disciplined him, and he called to this guy. He would go, okay, just go over to that chapter. Well, you know how that's going to go is him go his chapter and tell you his opinion. Now we don't get along or whatever. So there was just like these seeds of like they were undermining the brotherhood. And so it wasn't aligning with me anymore. And another big piece is I was doing the sit downs with these clubs, right?

And so I was really close to the banditos. We were tight. And I don't get the year wrong, but probably around 2019, little Dave, a bunch of of the Hispanic members of the national leadership that banditos had wanted to become Mongols and it sat down with the leadership and so little dave was asking me and some state reps our opinion on it and i was against it i didn't think it was a good idea at all but i'd been talking to these banditos in texas and before i even knew about this i'd ask him about i had some friends in it that were out in the odessa area and i was like hey would you ever be willing to

have some moguls of texas like cordially right we're trying to cool well this other shit's going on what i don't know about right so when it happens a lot of it looked like i knew about it or that I did it, which, I mean, whatever, it's the nature of the game. But it shifted my relationship with the banditos in Illinois when I had moved out there. I cordially had told them, hey, I'm moving out here for my life goes to school. I'm doing jihitsu. I have no interest in starting a chapter here. Now, I'll never box myself in the corner to say I'm not going to, but I really did.

I have no interest in starting a chapter there. And so when we started our first chapter there, I called it St. Louis, Missouri, out of respect for the outlaws. Now, I had started talking to them a lot about wanting to a southern Illinois chapter. We were all partying together, hang out together. The only thing that was going to change would be the right. writing on our patch, right? Didn't see it being a big issue. There was some conflict with it, but it might have been on to work it out.

But I'd always give them my word that I have no interest in ever starting Chicago. I know their history there. We had a lot of members there, but they were running out of Lake County, Indiana. But again, little Dave were National P at the time, due to some other people that run his ear, talked to him and said, hey, since we're doing Illinois, we're doing Chicago. So it looks like I go back on my word and I would, if I was still under Dave, Dave would explain to the outlaws when we're having sit down to that this is what mooch is call. Like, I'd never had the power to make a call like that, ever.

Like, you know, that's a national leadership thing, and that's like a president thing. But this new leadership, when the outlaws started, we're having issues, trying to have sit downs. The new leadership said, oh, yeah, we didn't approve Chicago. That was Mooch and Dave. Oh, yeah, we didn't do Texas. That was Mooch and Dave. I'm still an active member, man. The FBI just come to me and said, there's a credible threat on your life.

There's members of the outlaws that are trying to kill you. And my own club is saying, oh, yeah, I'd mooched that on his own. Did you really have a credible threat? Yeah, yeah. So things were getting really, really tense there for a while. So just like in Oregon, right, I started the chapter of the club, the Mongols there when the local clubs there didn't want us. They've been there for a long time. So I started in St. Louis.

There was no Mongols in the area. It's a lot of old school clubs. And then we start Illinois, you know, the outlaw's been there since the 40s. And so it was a direct threat to them or disrespect to them, right? Because I didn't get their approval. I had worked on it. I tried to, but calls were made and it ended up being what it was. So how did you squash that or how did you get that?

It's still not squashed. No. And that's kind of the thing, too, is one of the reasons that I decided to step aside is this is more twofold is there was a member named Tug who was he was the regional or the southern Illinois boss of the outlaws when I first moved out there. And him and I got real close, real close. And he ended up getting thrown out of the outlaws for, I believe, drug use, which if that's true, that's crazy because that's students do a lot of drugs. But he had kept wanting to say, well, hey, I want to be a Mongol. Let me be a Mongol. I'll build a Mongols.

And we still got along great at the outlaws and we had an agreement. We wouldn't take each other's ex-members. So I was like, hey, dude, especially if he really did have a drug problem, I wasn't going to bring him in anyways. But this was a good way for me. Like, hey, dude, I'd love to, but we can't. Well, the pagans were expanding by now. They're getting bigger.

There are starting more areas. And they were one of the only clubs that would allow ex-outlaws or X 1-percenters to come. So I did tell him by then there was a guy to J-Jitsu with that was a regional boss for the pagan. So it was helping expansion. And I put the two of them together. And part of that was selfishly as well, where now I know, Now I know the outlaws, there was all this talk of them attacking us and all this stuff. So I'm thinking, well, hey, if another club they don't like starts here, now they're going to be fighting on two fronts.

It wasn't the best move in the long run, but that's where my mindset was at. And so Tug ends up starting the Pagans in Southern Illinois. And so we have a run plan, say, us a Saturday where we were going to know, pagans and models were going to get together. And we're riding around, like show that we were united. And Friday night before the run, Tug got murdered, shot like 12 times in front of his house. And this was like, where was this? Southern Illinois is about 20 miles from my house. And so supposedly, well, I know who the guy was,

but there was an outlaw running around saying, well, we got tug and mooch is next. Now, whether that was really a credible threat or not, who knows. But someone who just got murdered, and he's saying that they did it, and now he's saying we're going to get mooch. So some informants to the feds,

and you know how that goes, right? Did they ever catch the guy who committed the body? No. No. And then... What was that over, you think? Him leaving the outlaws and going to a rival club. Is, well, at least that's on paper.

there was knowing Tug and knowing more backstory he was involved in a lot of different things so honestly my full belief in no BS is I really don't think the outlaws did it I think it was convenient for some members to take credit for it but I don't think they did it and and I really feel like they did they probably got caught too but I really he was involved with some other stuff like I said he was he was into some drugs and other stuff so are you going to stay out of southern Illinois though

no I mean I go back I mean I stayed there that's not why I left but but no there's nowhere that you're kind of lying low. Like there's no territory where like explicitly it's dangerous for you to go. There's probably somewhere's dangerous for me to go, but I'll, I mean, I'll go where I want to go, man. And I mean, I mean that with all due respect. I'm no tough guy or no badass, but I'm also, you know,

you see me all over the internet on podcasts all the stuff. I'm going to live my life. And especially from, dude, I left that world. Like one of the things like said, so the banditos, obviously when we were in the clubs, there was beef because of all the Texas thing. When I left, I called one of my friends that's in the national and he goes, hey, dude, any beef we had with you was left. when you left a club.

To me, that's respectful because say you're in Hell's Angel and I'm a Mongol and when we're at it, we fight in each other, right? But now we're not. And it's like, what am I hold a grudge against you

for what you did when you're in your club? You're supposed to do that, right? You did what you were supposed to do in a club. Yeah. But there are some people and some clubs that still hold an issue over it. And I guess that just is what it is.

Like I said, I know I made some mistakes. I'll own them. So, so now you've been out for a couple of years, like on a high level, just looking at what the 1% landscape looks like today, right now in 26, who do you think is the strongest 1% club in America? The 2006 Chevrolet Equinox awarded the most dependable compact SUV in the U.S. by J.D. Power is designed for your everyday. And with available all-wheel drive, you can handle your

to-do list with total confidence. Start your build at Chevrolet.ca. Details at jdepower.com. man that's really tough because there's so many of so you know I would always say to this day still the hells angels are always be the most well known for sure because from the early decades even now I mean I have friends that know about clubs and they might even see a Mongol go there goes a hell's angel like people see a pack of bikers or Harley owner groups I'm wearing patches they go those are hells angels right so I think as far as popularity goes or name recognition it's always going to be the hells angels I think you know with media covered and stuff the mongles are starting to be a pretty well-known name like when I just join the Mongols in Oregon. No one knew the hell we were to. Like I remember like some of the locals when hey, do the freesles know you're here? I'm like, no who, what? Like, who are you guys? They were like, people thought we were made up club. But I guess it depends. So it's like by region, right? Still. Like there's big clubs that are there still dominant in their region. Who's the most, who's the club that's like coming up? The Vago's probably. You know, I think, you know, the Mongols were that club. And then with their little Dave getting thrown out in the

politics and leadership change. Not that they lost members. over it, but, you know, if I was going to join and I'm seeing this stuff going on, I might not. And I think the vagos, a lot of people went to the vagos instead. They have very similar culture. A lot of Hispanic members, a lot of punk rock members and the same area. Which is like the southwest?

Southern California is where, I mean, they're all over now, but yeah, yeah, that's where they're, like, where they started and where they're strong at. So I would say as far as, like, the strong as far growing, the pagans are showing up everywhere, but they're doing it like outside of traditional norms, like they're taking X members from other clubs or right. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure that they had said that they would take a former law enforcement in some areas. They had passed over guys from the Iron Order. And I'm

cool with Pagans. I'm not trying to say her in bad mouth them, but as they're growing, a lot of the other 1% clubs don't show the respect to them that they used to because the pagans were a very formidable legitimate one percent of a club. And with their growth, you know, it's like with anything, you start going to states you've never been in, how are you going to bet who it is, you know? Who do you think is the most criminal? Like, who do you think really is, like, the most real outlaw, like catching the most cases, committing the most murders. Man, that's so hard to say because there really, I mean, there really isn't, as far as, I mean, you really can't, right?

Like what we were saying before, is you're going to wear a patch. You really can't be that criminal. There's probably individuals out there that are some down-assies. But as far as, like, who's the most gangster club, I would say, like, who, well, again, it's kind of regional. Like, the mall was moving it to Texas. It wasn't a walkthrough. You know what I mean?

Like, there's been shootings back and forth ever since. Yeah. You know, the outlaws and models were not shooting at each other for a while. The Angels and Mabobos still are at war with each other. So it's like... Was that right? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

So I would say that, you know, and if you're part of one of those big 5-1% of clubs, there's likely an enemy and you're not just getting pushed around. Well, they shot that pagan leader to death with silencers and broad daylight in New York. Yeah. Yeah, that was wild, right? The guy we had on here who talked about it, he was... He said that there was rumors that he was trying to recruit blood members into the pagans. Have you seen that on the West Coast?

I know we talked about that a little bit, but do the Mongols do that with like Soraynoes or anything like that? Yeah, but I wouldn't call it recruiting. So what I'd say is like so there's a big crossover now from the punk rock hardcore scene, like you guys over in the hardcore cruise or whatever going to motorcycle clubs. And it starts because, you know, four or five of your friends do it. And then, oh, hey, the dude from FSU, they join. And then, you know, younger guys are looking up to that. They start getting the scene.

And then, you know, those are like youth cultures. So you start to grow out of it. Now you're riding a bike. So it's like a natural progression. And so Southern California, since that's the gang, their stuff is so predominant. Oh, yeah, I know guy from that neighborhood. I don't think it's necessarily recruiting. I think it's the cultural where you're at.

But I think it's that next logical step, right? Like, I'm growing out of this. And this is still, you still have the community and the brotherhood and standing up for something and they're representing something. Right. But you're also. it's almost like, I don't want to call it retirement from gang stuff, but it's almost like, you know, it's a step in a different direction, right? You're like, hey, I'm not, you know, doing the neighborhood shit all the time now,

less risk of getting in trouble or getting her. But it's still a risky lifestyle and you're still doing similar stuff. Right. So I think it's, you know, depending on the region, I think it's more natural that, say a guy came from the bloods and he, and now he's in, he's going to call up his homies or his homies want to hang out. Yeah. But I don't know.

I haven't seen it be intentional. Yeah. ironically the 1% clubs have become kind of what the Crips and the Bloods said that they formulated to actually do form to actually do which is to give a sense of brotherhood and protection it was supposed to be like a positive thing yeah yeah like that's why Tuki Williams started the Crips was like it was supposed to be like a neighborhood family right family defending your neighborhood making sure that other people aren't coming in and doing illegal shit or ruining you know exactly it was supposed to be like a protection for the neighborhood and something that was positive.

And they did have positivity at the beginning because that was, that came about after the Black Panther era. But of course, we saw that that quickly. Only introduced money to any sort of group, right? Yeah. And money and power. Yeah. And it's going to corrupt anything.

I mean, we don't even know. For all we know now, that could have been a CIA sciop. Just like we know that rap music, gang's a rap music was, was, had the CIA behind it to divide the community. The crack epidemic in Los Angeles and the first. Oh, that's the most obvious. Proven, you know. Yeah.

So why wouldn't they? Right. And even from what I've seen in motorcycle clubs, like I said, for Loughlin, for example, there's a lot of pretty credible theories out there that it, the Hells Angels were at their casino. The Mongols were at theirs. Now there was a lot of tension because the Mongols had just moved in in Northern California. They were no longer talking.

They didn't care for each other. But they had both had gone to this event every year, it stayed at these hotels. For whatever reason, some Hells Angels decided to stay. The Mongols just stayed at a different hotel this year to be away, even further away. There happened to be some Hells Angels there with some looks, but no big deal. A cop went to the Hells Angels casino, which were all on the ATF agents were, and said, hey, your buddies are surrounded by Mongols. They need help. The informants were on the floor talking about this.

Mongols were over there harassing the angels. So the angels get on their bikes, run over there, attack the Mongols. Boom, Loflin happens. So it's like pretty, not a crazy conclusion to jump to. to say that law enforcement is instigating these things for various, all sorts of, like we talked about being able to sustain your own unit, right, do your own thing, to get the funding, to have these national coverage. They look, and here's the other part too, when they try to take our patch,

a little Dave came up with this thing, the Save the Patch initiative. And at this point, the banditos were on board. Like the angels, we were working on this truce with the angels, the outlaws were like, we were all working together because everyone decided, hey, if they can take the Mongols patch, they can take ours. And that's a direct threat to law enforcement and the government is if all these one percenter clubs are working together, it's not a threat as they know they're going to be super criminals.

It's a threat of this going to be even harder and harder to make... Right. They're not fight. Here's a thing, and we talked about this earlier, the last thing that one percenters are still doing that you're able to call them criminals is these public, the public violence. Right. If they're getting along with each other,

there's not going to be public violence. What is left for law enforcement to say, hey, here's why we need to shut them down. It's like a mini false flag. Yeah. It's, you know, how we know now World War I, to Vietnam, everything going on right now.

That was a false flag. You know, Israel instigated October 7th is an excuse to go in and basically try to commit ethnic cleansing. When the government, when the ATF provokes a shooting in Waco that kills nine people, that's a mini false flag

to justify budget and propaganda and the, you know, the cycle continues. And keep in mind, too, a lot of people don't understand is these biker gang experts, they get paid extra to be experts. They get paid to testify as trials as biker gang experts. They get paid to go to do trainings, right?

They get paid to go to the other agency and be like, yeah, here's what we know. They get to have these interagency collaboration units where you get paid extra. So do you think they want everything to be cool? No, they want to come on podcasts and keep pushing the propaganda. Yeah, because they get, that's their, and again, we want to talk about identity, that becomes their identity.

They're the micro game. They're the undercover that infiltrated the biker gains. I'm that guy that infiltrate you're the biggest undercover ever You know we had the most busts It goes to ego identity and fun and money Can you imagine spending six three years of your life Undercover for Motorcycle Club And saying damn dude

All we did was party and I barely signed any illegal shit I'm an alcoholic now I ruined a lot of lives by sending people to prison And took them away from their wives Who I sat dinner had dinner with and hung out with their kids On holidays but yeah man they weren't they weren't bad They were good people Just mentally psychologically they're not going to admit that

And what do you think they're going to say publicly? Hey, we've been wasting your taxpayer money to follow a bunch of groups that really not doing illegal stuff? No, these guys are the bad guys. We're just, we need, you guys need us. We need the money. We need the guns. We need the body armor.

Like, we need the funding. Well, I think the public pretty well knows that the government's wasting our tax money. Absolutely. But I think the cat's out of the bag now. For sure. Well, buddy, I've had so much fun talking you, man. That's been great. You wrote a book.

Please plug that. We have a lot of biker fans that watch the show. so I'm sure they would love to hear about it. Yeah, yeah, check it out. It's called The Ride of My Life. It's on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, anywhere you want to get it. And it really talks about the early years from punk rock, skinhead touring and bands to how I got to motorcycle clubs,

what that life was like, and then getting out and becoming a therapist and just kind of that full circle. A lot of details in it, and really great feedback. And then on top of that, I have the Patch Podcasts where I talk about, we have, it started out as a goal to show the public and members that it was me and a former Hells Angel are sitting down together.

We're the host to show how much we all have in common. If the name on the top rocker was different, we'd all be getting along. And then it really turned into this arc of the mental health aspect being a club has. And then also there's this huge community of people that spend,

whether it's law enforcement, whether it's army, gangs, whatever, you spend, say, 10, 15, 20 years of your young adulthood with a certain identity and developing belonging to something and you leave, there's this big question

of what do I do next, man? You know, who am I? What's my purpose? And so we really focus on that and really help, you know people find their meaning in life and where the direction they want to go and then move on to positive things so that's the patch podcast it's been dope awesome man go check all that out mooch appreciate you dog thanks all right take care guys peace