The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Former Peckerwood Gang Member Opens Up About Life Sentence Under California's 3 Strike Law

Episode Date: May 4, 2024

Chris Curtis grew up in Orange County, California in area rife with addiction and crime. As a child he was not protected from this reality and in fact was encouraged to be a part of it. Struggling with addiction and turning to a life of crime, Chris ended up getting sentenced to life in prison as a result of California's Three Strikes law. There he found himself in some of the most dangerous institutions in the state. He's on the show to talk about how he ended up getting out of prison with a life sentence, cleaning up and overcoming his addiction, and becoming a mentor of hope for kids just like he was. Go Support Chris! Book: https://www.amazon.com/Orange-County-Dark-Christopher-Curtis/dp/1644565935 IG: https://www.instagram.com/octhedarkside8083/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@octhedarkside8083 Support the show and get 15% off your Perfect Jean order at https://www.theperfectjean.nyc/ with promo code CONNECT15 Head over to https://hellomood.co/ and use code CONNECT20 at checkout for 20% off your first order PLUS a free 5 count pack of gummies! Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

And I got a terrible feeling, man. I'm like, something's wrong. Like, you know, so I start shooting at him. All as I know is that if somebody's disrespecting me, I should just take off on them at that time. My guest today is a man named Christopher Curtis. Chris is from Orange County, California, and was serving a life sentence in the CDC under the infamous California three strikes law. He spent years on level four prison yards where he described the other inmates as killing for sport. These are his words.

He has a fascinating story about his. time in the streets and how he ended up with a life sentence, what prison is like for people doing life, and what happened to allow him to clean himself up and get out early. He's got a great book about his story, Orange County, The Dark Side, available on Amazon right now. He's only been out of prison for two years, off of a 20-year stretch, but he's turned his life around. He's an electrician, he's getting married, and he helps at-risk youth. Five percent of the proceeds from his book go to helping these you. So make sure to go out and get it.

It's a great read. Without further ado, I give you Christopher Curtis right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. I come out of the hotel room. My car just surrounded me. And I'm looking at each one of them and I'm like, I got a clock 45 on my lap. So I'm in another high-speed chase.

That's when I see the lights behind me start to flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on. And then I parked the car, popped out, closed the door, running and he pulls out a burner shank it's like six inches then he passes it to me and he goes here that's yours don't ever leave the cell block without this he was the reason i made it out of that

place alive um it shows you how violent california used to be though like they they imposed these incredibly harsh sentences because there was so much violence in the streets still is it's just suppressed you know they just don't you know but a lot of the kids are on fentany all they weren't Like the 90s were, in the early 2000s were a lot different on the streets than they are now. How so? Well, because, you know, the meth back then was real. And everybody was, you know, just crazy. You know what I mean?

Now, you know, these kids are on downers. They're on downers. That's fascinating. Right. So, you know, we're on meth. Like, you know, when meth came in, like, I know, I know I was crazy. You know what I mean? The guys I was running around with pretty crazy.

Right. You know? So you have the crack in the meth era. These are hyper upper drugs and therefore you have more street violence, more everything that that entails, right? Yeah. And now kids just overdose and die. Yeah. They're just done.

Yeah. If I was living now as a kid, I'd probably be dead. And mostly everybody I know. Yeah. That went through the same thing I went through. We'd all be dead probably. Yeah. Yeah.

So you're from Orange. in the city of Orange, yeah. City of Orange in Orange County. Yeah. And that used to just be farmland back then. It was all orange grows back in the day. All orange groves. You know, when I grew up there, I was born in 71, so, you know, most of that was gone.

There was still a little bit, but, yeah. And people associate Orange County with surfing and the reality show. Orange County, Orange County House. Why? Yeah. It's all glamour. Everybody thinks it's a rich area. Laguna Beach.

Yeah, that's why I put Orange County the dark side. Yeah. You know in the book because, you know, it just shows that. Yeah, because you've got Orange County on the coast, right? You've got the city, which are incredibly wealthy. You've got Laguna, Newport, Costa Mesa. Villa Park is wealthy. Yeah, exactly.

Anheim Hills, mostly Anaheim Hills. But then there's a whole swath of Orange County just pushed inland a little bit. And I don't know what it is. The culture just bred that kind of, if you listen to Sublime and you, know the culture of sublime. It was like that, the roots of it were in this like, I'll say it even though it's mean, a white trash kind of white gangbanging mixed with Latino gangbanging culture. Yeah.

It's just kind of a street hooligan type culture. You know what I mean? Where do you think that comes from? Is it just drugs? Drugs and lack of, you know, parents being responsible. and, you know, controlling their kids. So what did your parents were, your father was very irresponsible? Well, he, you know, I grew up in a great childhood in the beginning.

You know, my dad was well off. He had a great company. He was a brick mason. He was a little league coach. Wow. And then, you know, when I was around 12 years old, or a little bit, well, I'm just a little bit before that, he started using cocaine with a friend. And then it just went from there.

And then he lost the house. And then, you know, and my mom left him because of the drugs. and then, you know... He was spending all his money on cocaine? Yeah, he lost everything. We had a, you know, nice house. We had everything we wanted when we were kids. Until I was about 12 years old.

Yeah. You know, we had everything. Yeah. You know, when you say everything. I mean, we had a pinball machine, real pinball machine in the house. We had all the, you know, Colico Vision and television and everything we wanted. See, I think that's the problem with the Orange County mentality right there is you say we had everything. Did you have books?

Did you have any kind of guidance beyond material things? Well, back then, I mean, I just remember I was a hyperactive kid. Like, I was bad. I was constantly just running around. You know, I had, you know, I was on Ritalin. In kindergarten, I was on Ritalin. They started my Ritalin, you know, because I couldn't sit still in school. I'd just walk out of class, you know.

Right. But I was just everywhere on my bike, you know. We were just everywhere. My parents would be like, just be home for the streetlights came on. And I would come back dirty and they would, you know, I'd throw me in the bath and feed me and I'd pretty much be out. Right. But yeah, it was, now that I think about it, and my dad, you know, I think the drugs, like, you know, it took me a long time to realize that I had a lot of resentments towards my dad until I realized addiction and recovery.

And I started, you know, understanding, obviously he had issues too. Yeah. His dad was an alcoholic, you know. Yeah, it's usually passed down the line. Yeah, there's, you know, whatever. But he, you know, the drugs fucked him up. So what you were 13 when you remember your father heavily into Coke? Well, I was 13.

It was New Year's night at the age of 13 that my dad started me and my best friend on cocaine when we moved in with them. So, wow. You know, it was one of them things where I'll give you a little story. So when I was a kid, when my parents first lost the house that we lived in, we moved into this other house down the street, which was so. okay. And I met some kids there and, you know, I was hanging around with these kids for a couple months. And then one day after school, they'll approach me saying, hey, you're a drug addict, you know, call me cocaine sniffer, you know, and I'm just a kid. I'm like, what are you talking about? And I guess their parents knew my dad, their parents' friends knew my dad or whatever and said, you know,

that, you know, my dad, you know, lost everything because of cocaine. Wow. So these kids weren't allowed to hang out with me anymore. And I'm just a kid. I don't know what's going on. I'm like, I didn't know anything about drugs or nothing. I'm like, I'm just a kid. Did that hurt? Yeah.

Yeah, it was terrible. Being a kid that young, I didn't know, you know, just being an innocent little kid coming from a great family to now just all the kids in school thinking you're a drug addict. Nobody wanted to be around me. You know what I mean? Oh, my God. And then I ended up, you know, meeting this kid named Brandon and we became really good friends. His parents were kind of poor.

And then from there, you know, and then a couple months later, my mom left my dad. and my dad moved down the street and my mom went with my aunt. We kind of went back and forth. And then a little bit later, you know, me and my brother moved him with my dad. So when did he give you cocaine for the first time? It was New Year's night, like 1983 or 84 or something. And, you know, it's funny that, you know, because he comes out with like files, you know, with cocaine in it. And I seen it.

And the first thing I thought about was what those kids were saying. You know what I mean? I'm like, wow, what's going on? You know, like, and so he sits down with us. We're at the table listening to music, you know, records, you know. That's how long ago that was, you know, listening to records in this New Year's night. People are coming and going out of the house. And we kind of didn't really know what was going on.

But, you know, we found out quickly, you know, what was happening. But he poured, you know, some white stuff since on the mirror started chopping it up, made up three lines. Wow. And he did one. Then he, you know, okay, go ahead, try it.

And I did it. And right away, I was like, this is great, you know. Yeah. You know, instant euphoria,

you know. Well, there was, you know, he had the, spoiled, spoiled kid here. The connection lived in the house.

So it was like, oh, an Italian, yeah, so yeah, that's what I'm saying. It was like your dad's roommate. It was a drug house,

yeah. It was like major amounts of Coke going in and out of the house. Weed, tie stick, humble, oil. Just all sorts of just, you know, it was off the hook, man. And me being a kid, oh, this is, this is great, you know.

So, you know, I get lines for doing the dishes. You know, you got colds for doing the dishes. For washing the truck or for Christmas, got a half gram of cocaine, a carton of cigarettes. You know, yeah. How long did that last? And did you pick up, did you become an addict? Oh, right away. I was done.

You know, I was already, yeah, I was done. Like, how often were you doing it? All as much as possible. Right. you know, whatever, you know, a bunch is possible. And whatever he had, you would dip into his stash? Well, see, it was kind of like, he was still struggling. Now that I look back, he was, you know, the connection was his roommate.

Right. But there would be times where I'd come out to school because his roommate lived right across from my door. So I'd open the door and his door would be wide open. And there'd be big bags of cocaine and cash and all this shit sitting there. And I'd be like, what? Because he never keeps his door open. So I already knew, like, you know, oh, he fell asleep

in the, you know, out in the front room because he should just go out and cook cocaine in the little vial on the stove, you know. I'd go in the room and take spoonfuls and grab cash and me and my friends would party all day. Did you ever free base? Yeah, of course.

That started happening. Yeah. So you're like 14 years old, you're not even in high school yet. Are you like a freshman in high school? I was in seventh grade when this happened. Oh, my goodness. I was in seventh grade.

And so you're getting your friends hooked? Oh, me and my best friend, Jared, right away, we were, you know, yeah, we were using it all the time and then, you know, other friends would come over and then we'd all hang out there and smoke weed and do Coke. And your father gets into selling it, obviously?

Oh, he was selling it. Yeah, but, you know, his roommate was the connection, you know. My dad was a brick mason. He still went to work. He still gave us food. I mean, not a lot. You know, we had a lot of McDonald's, but it was, it was just different, you know.

And, you know, it just, destroyed me. And your mom didn't want to save you from this horrible situation? She didn't really know what was going on, but she found out because they all went to the same bar, you know. So, you know, there was rumors what was going on. And, you know, everybody we knew the older people, like, you know, my dad's friends, they would come over and buy Coke. And, you know, of course, they started saying stuff. You know, they figured it out. Can you imagine your own daughter living at a house like that? I mean, it's enough. You could get your kids taken away now, but with, putting them in those kind of situations.

Yeah. It was different back in the 80s too. You know, I remember this teacher, Ms. Brandt, she was, she was cool, but she would always ask me, like, hey, what's going on, you know, like, everything's fine, you know? But it was weird, like she knew. Right. You know what I mean? But she always tried to keep me out of trouble.

Like, we'd always, you know, and, yeah, it was a trip. Would you, when you went to school high on Coke, what was that? that like. Did it calm you down? No, it was, it was doing cocaine for me. It just, like, makes you all sketched out and, you know, I didn't like, you know. So did it make you like a quiet, sketchy, yeah, of course. Kind of paranoid person. That's how it makes, when I used to do it, that's what it would do to me.

But you enjoyed it, though, still. Well, I enjoyed it until it was gone. Right. You know what I mean? It was cool till it was gone. What were those come down? Like, we want more, you know. Yeah.

You know, I remember on the way to probation department, because I, you know, me and my friends, friends, we vandalized the school. This is like, you know, we were like still seventh grade, you know. Broke into the school cafeteria, so we got kicked out of a Saturday work study and we destroyed the place. We broke all the trophies, through the piano off the stage. We were there all weekend long. We would, like, leave and then come back and party there. and so we ended up for probation. We went to June the hall for that.

And on the way the probation department, my dad would pull out his little vial, you know, and hit it on the steering wheel and give me some coke before we went to probation department, you know. Memorial Day weekend is almost here, and it's time to kick off summer right. When I'm getting ready for the first big weekend of summer, total wine and more is my go-to,

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Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly must be 21. Oh, you had no chance. It was just a different, you know, it just... No, it wasn't different. I mean, it was different, but it was fucked up. Yeah, it was best up. Were you able to, when you leave...

You later caught your criminal cases, felony cases, one that sent you away for life or what was supposed to be life. Were you able to argue, like talk about your childhood as a way to like get mitigating circumstances? I think that that's really doesn't come into play. You know what I mean? I think that the only thing that would come into play for that is being just crazy at that time. Right. You know what I mean?

And plus you don't want to say that. You know what I mean? You're just like, you know, they tried that in juvenile. I don't even know, like, to be honest with you, I don't really know, but I know that I never said that. You know what I mean? I never used that. Because if you do that too, then they're like, oh, well, this guy's just, you know, he has no chance anyways. What kind of lawyer did you have?

Just a regular public defender, you know. Well, that was probably the issue. Because when you say, okay, this kid grew up addicted to drugs. that his father gave him you know, a judge can maybe look at that and say, okay,

well, he doesn't deserve to be doing life. Like, there's got to be something we could do, send him to, you know, send him to drug court

or send him to get him a drug program. You know what I mean? Yeah, but back then they really didn't have that, dude. They didn't have that all that. Like,

you know, like, and by the time they did start doing that, I was already, you know, my past. You were a gangster.

My past, you know, for the shooting and, you know, for the high-speed chases and all that stuff. They were like, I tried to get the Romero Act. You know, matter of fact, I tried to get the Romero Act when I got busted in 2002. And I pled guilty to the case that I went to got life for because I was trying to get the Romero Act. What is that?

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The Romero Act is where they strike a strike and they give you, you get like 10 years. You know what I mean? They were giving to a lot of people. Oh, okay. But, you know, their history wasn't like mine, you know. Yeah.

But I still tried to do it. do it. And they were like, no. But since I did do that, you know, since I did, you know, plead guilty to take them through the, you know, the process, you know, spend all the money to go into court back and forth. They only gave me 28 to life. Instead of just straight life.

No, instead of 107 years to life. Oh, right. You know what I'm saying? Which it, even if they gave me the 107 years to life, how everything changed, I would still got out. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Because it just, you know, the proper. 57 is we're going to get into that yeah save that because that this is a huge piece of legislation that changes the fate of so many people in california changes everything and also ruined california yeah and we're going to talk about that too yeah that's what's so ironic about it yeah yeah um yeah how crazy is that it turns out we needed some of those laws yeah well i went a little too far on that yeah exactly yeah thank you for getting me exactly that's well that's the problem of america it's like one extreme after another you know you try It's about trying to find a balance.

Yeah. So what age then did you start selling Coke? I was selling it right away at school to whoever I could sell it to. Really? Yeah. Like kids in school had money to buy coke? Yeah, of course. You know, there was a few kids that bought it, you know? And, you know, we even sometimes like my dad would like, my dad started cutting the coke sometimes.

Like, you know, you selling it to us. Right. So when we couldn't get it from his roommate on the side. Yeah. Because my dad would get mad. We'd take off to San Anna. You know, we'd all go down to San Anna. And I'd like, you know, we're just just a kid, a baby, you know.

Now that I think about it, I was a small kid too. Yeah. I was like 4-11 until I turned like 17 or 18. Then I just started growing. So you were re-uping from... Yeah, we'd go to San Anna and get it from them and, you know, from the Mexicans down there. And, yeah. And so you take it to school and sell it.

Yeah, we'd sell it, you know, whatever. So we all the time, you know. Yeah. Did you finish high school? No, no. I stopped going to school. I think eighth grade. I just dropped out. Wow. And so what are you doing from 14 to 18 when you become an adult? Just drugs, you know? I ran away with juvenile hall. I went to like continuation school, you know, in Anaheim. Yeah. Like, you know, where you just do independent study or whatever, you know, I did that for a minute. You know, and then I turned 18 and I got off probation. You know, Luckily, the Ritalin comes up, you know, if you take Ritalin, you drug test, it's going to come up dirty for meth. So I kept getting dirties. And then my mom and the probation officer worked out a thing where I got on Ritalin, so I'd get up probation and then get out of the juvenile system.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I started doing meth, and then that was, you know, that was a whole other world. Now I was out and about. Like, you know, I wasn't, you know, like just hanging around in the house or whatever. So you ran away from home to get away from your friends. father. Yeah.

Was he, did he end up going to prison for, no, he never got in trouble for selling drugs? He did, he did like a week, weekends, you know,

because he's never been in trouble before. He was a good person to tell all that, you know. Yeah. And then, but he was drug testing, you know, when I was living with him

after he got busted, you know, when I was going to get him Coke and stuff like that. I think he got it dirty a couple of times, but they didn't do nothing, but he worked, man. Okay.

So he was a great worker. All through his addiction, he still worked. Yeah. Okay. You know, he was a, He was a brick mason.

Is he alive today? No, no. He, uh, about, oh, a couple weeks after I got busted in 2002, he died of a heart attack. Wow. He just died. And that's what 25 years of cocaine will do. Well, he didn't really, you know, he ate pretty unhealthy. He was overweight, you know.

He served all the time, you know, still served all the time. But, uh, he, uh, did he ever get clean? Well, they said he was clean, but I know my brother would go over there and get him stuff like that. You know, I don't really know, you know, because I just didn't, I just, we just didn't really talk after that, you know. Once I got older and kind of like, you know, we just didn't really talk, you know. So you're, you run away to Anaheim. No, I ran away to my brothers, which is an orange down the street. Okay.

You know, and I lived there and we just did Coke. You know, that's when I stopped going to school. and then, you know, they lost a place and then my mom got a place in Anaheim off right there off Rio Vista and Lincoln and then that's when I started doing meth, you know? And that, you never went back to Coke after that. No, no.

Yeah, so it's... I thought it was, you know, great because I could run around and, you know, do whatever and, you know, it just... Yeah. Yeah, meth is like Coke for... seniors. It's like Coke for, you know, you graduate to meth. Yeah. After doing Coke, it seems like most people. Yeah. Right. Um, so you're, are you committing crime at this point? Are you working? Or when do you get into the street stuff and the gang bang? It started with, uh, you know, we'd still cans. Like, you know, me and my buddy would, uh, go around in the daytime and like look on the side of that drive around. Look on side of houses. You can see people, you know, bags of cans. And we write the addresses down. And then we'd come back at night and go pick them all up, you know. And we'd get like $200 a night sometimes, you know.

Right. That's almost not a crime what you're describing. It sounds like you guys are recycling. They were, I think those people were just going to, I think it was either you or the city. How was this a crime? Well, because we're stealing people's cans. You know, people save them for money to, you know, whatever.

They're saving those cans up to, uh, we're stealing from somebody, you know, maybe it's their kids saving something, you know. Sure. Okay. You know. Cleaning the environment. Whatever. Whatever.

But, and then, from there, you know, my mom, then she kicked me out, you know, for... Because I just wouldn't stop using drugs, you know. And then I ended up on the streets. Homeless? Not homeless. I never was really homeless because I just, at that time, I started doing telemarketing. You know, back in the 90s, I got this job doing telemarketing. And I was making a lot of money.

You know what I'm saying? I was making a lot of money as a kid. You can keep, when you're high on meth, you could just dial and talk and dial and talk. It was a system, you know. We had cards of leads that we'd buy people that buy this stuff, like the one to five promotion. Yeah. Congratulations. You've been selected to receive a boy to a brand new car.

You know, I'm not a liberty to tell you what you're going to get. But I got into that information that, you know, you're going to win. And then we would like, we would sell these, like, beauty in the box was the big thing. From Beverly Hills. It's like an assortment of hair, skin, and body products that dramatically tailored to enhance your appearance. And these old people would suck that stuff up. Wow. So we would sell that, you know, $3,000 worth of that.

You know, I get the commission from that. I was bringing sometimes home like $2,000 cash a week. Oh, so you found something you were good at. Well, yeah. But I was spending it all on math. Of course. You know what I mean? And I started running around with different crowds of people, you know,

gangs started coming and then I was on the streets and then it's just all about drugs. Right. And then next thing you know, you know, I was hanging around people that, you know,

were shooting at people and... Who were the Orange County gangs? Who were they at the time? At the time? You were in the streets. Because there's a lot of gangs. People don't realize this. There's a lot of street gangs

out of Orange County. Yeah. For the whites, you know, it was peonies, CWB, hooligan skins. war skins. There's a bunch of, you know,

I can't remember all of them, you know, NLR. But those were more prison. That was a prison gang at the time. Nazi low-riders. Yeah, it just started.

And, you know, you start running around with these people. And I used to tell myself, you know, I'll never be like these guys. There's no way.

You know, I would never be like that. Mm-hmm. And then one day, you know, I was just, you know, I was just like carrying a gun.

Yeah. I was getting shot at. So I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to, you know, and that's... Who's shooting at you? Well, rivals.

And who are the rivals? Are the rivals Mexican gangs or other white gangs? We would go like stealing car stereos or whatever. Right. And we get chased in the neighborhoods by these Mexican gangs. It's their neighborhood. Right. Get shot at, you know, or whatever.

Yeah. And then I'm like, well, I'm not going to, you know, and then, you know, I've just started carrying a gun. Mm-hmm. Because that was going on, you know. And I just, next thing you know, I'm just, shooting at people. Like, it's nothing. You know, like, uh, it's crazy because I never thought I would be like that, you know, and then it came to a point where, uh, it was nothing for me.

To shoot at somebody? It's nothing, you know, like. Do you remember shooting at people? Is there any particular times that stand out to you? Yeah. So there was this one time, uh, me and my buddy, we, like, hijacked this, this truck one time, um, down in Anaheim. This was back in like 92 or whatever. The guy went in to deliver package. We jumped in and, you know, took it. Yeah. You know what I mean?

I was in a car. He jumped out, took it. We, you know, we dropped it off. We were going to come back at night and get it. So we split up. And I'm walking down the street and I see this guy with long hair. And I was like, hey, you do meth? He's like, yeah.

I'm like, hey, let's go to your house. I'm trying to get off the streets right now. You know, we left the car, everything. I'm trying to get off the streets. I got a gun. You know, whatever. Yeah. I got to go out of the street.

Your friend has the car. Well, no. We dropped, and got rid of everything in case, because he's seen us in that car. And at that time, you get caught doing something like that. It's a life sentence.

Right. So we just got rid of everything. And we go into this house. I go into this house and it's full of tweakers. And it's like in an area that I know. And I don't even, I'm thinking to myself, I don't even know about this place.

What's going on here? And it's like a whole different, you know, branch of tweakers. Right. You know what I mean? So I'm thinking, man, I can sell dope out of this house. Well, this is great, you know?

And the girl's like, I got a room for rent and all this. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll rent the room, you know. Yeah. So then I tell my buddy about it because, you know, we're selling a bunch of drugs, you know. And we get the room there. And the first night we're there, you know, the first night. We're in the room. We got a bunch of dope.

We're weighing it out, you know. And this girl comes in and goes, hey, this guy wants to buy and now is a dope. I'm like, well, tell him to come in. and she's like, now he won't come in. I'm like, all right. So I grab my gun.

I grab the dope. I grab the dope. He's like, in his car, you know, started and whatever. I'm like, no, I go, if I wanted your shit,

I showed him my gun, I'd just take it. Like, give me the money. I'll give you the dope, you know? So he throws a lot of cash on the front seat. And it looks like the money's there. I mean, I don't know.

How much is an ounce of dope? I think it was like $600 bucks at the time or something like that? I can't really remember. And is this biker dope? Were you getting it for bikers or white boys? or was it Mexican? It's like we were getting up from Mexicans or just, you know,

we'd all meet up and, you know, Midway City and pick it up and, you know, and then we'd take off, you know. But so he throws the money on the seat. I grabbed the money and throw the dope on the seat and he just burns rubber. Yeah. So I start shooting at him.

You know what I mean? In my mind, I'm like, you know, what's going on here? So this is in the middle of daytime right by Disneyland. So I'm shooting at him as he's turning the corner and then I go in the house and my friend's like dude what are you doing like because they're always like this is always happening like you know what I mean

and I'm like I don't know you just took off dude and he counted the money it was $5 short you know and I'm thinking to myself you know he's like dude like what are you doing like yeah that was a clean drug deal but he thing is he gave him the drugs he gave you the money yeah but he took off

like in my mind what's going on here this got burning me like money fake or what I don't know right but that's how crazy you were shooting at his truck It was this car. So I'm shooting and just going around the corner. You know, like, and I go inside. The girl goes, yeah, you guys can't live here no more.

We got kicked out the first night. So your mind is so warped by methamphetamine. Whatever. That's what it came to. That's like one of the ones that sticks out, you know. And it started like a little, you know, riff or whatever. Hey, guys, this episode is sponsored by our longtime partner, Mood. If you're a fan of the show, then you know Mood by now.

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Use code Connect20 at checkout at Hellomood.co for 20% off your first order plus a free five-count pack of gummies. I love mood. Support them because they support us. They are a long time legacy sponsor. I love them. I can't say enough about them. Go check it out and get that free five count pack of gummies. Okay, let's get back into the episode. So now these guys are like, hey, you know, we're going to get Chris or whatever. And then some more stuff happened. And they're calling my friend, tell him, you know, my friend, you know, this girl I know, hey, we're going to get Chris, you know. And these guys, you know. you shot out they wanted to come back and get you. And then some more stuff happened too, right? And then, you know, she's telling them like, dude, you guys are going to get shot if you go after Chris, you know. Yeah. You guys are going to get hurt.

You know, you better just leave it alone. A couple months later, uh, I'm with this girl and she's dropping off something, checks or something, you know, she's doing something. And there's a bunch of guys sitting out from the apartment complex. This in Anaheim, I don't know who they are. They don't look familiar to me. I, it's far away or whatever.

But I got my gun. I don't care. Like, I'm just sitting there. And then she's, then them guys take off. And then she goes, hey, come on up, you know. So I go up in the apartment. And I'm sitting on the couch and these guys walk in. And now I remember who they are.

It's all these guys that say they're going to get me. Oh, shit. And they leave. They look at me and they're like shaking their head like, all right. And then they take off. So I tell the girl, hey, we're out of here. And then the guy comes out, you know, he's a little tatted back. And, you know, he's an older dude.

And he's like, hey, those guys are going to be out there waiting for you. You better stay here. I'm like, look, dude, I'm out of here. I go, you got kids here. I go, I don't want to bring any problems here, but I'm leaving, dude. You know what I mean? And he's like, yeah, whatever, you know. So, you know, we're leaving, and I'm up on top of the stairs.

And there's like six or seven guys at the bottom of the stairs. And I tell the girl I'm with him, just go get in the car. They're not going to mess with you, you know. So I get to the bottom stairs. I got my hand in my pocket. You know, I keep my gun loaded. I'm ready to, you know, whatever. I'm not going to lose, you know.

And I'm like, what's up? And they don't even say anything to me. I'm like sitting there like, yeah, whatever. So I get in the car and once I get in the car and the passenger side, they rush the car and they're hitting me through the window. And they started opening the door and I just shot them, you know. And then that's when I shot them two guys. I see.

And then. Hold on. So where did you shoot them? What happened? Did any of them get killed? They didn't get, they didn't die. But I shot one dude twice and one. one dude once.

But I get out of the car because it's in the middle, like, it's on a Friday night. Like, it's not night yet, but there's people everywhere. Yeah. There's kids. There's people everywhere. Like, you know what I mean? I get out of the car and there's one guy. There's only one guy there when I get out of the car. The rest of the guy's ramp.

Right. And he's crawling away and I picked him up. And I turned him over. I'm like, you fucking stupid. Like, I was pissed. Like, you dumb fucker. You know, I carry a gun. You know what I mean?

And because I knew I was done at that point. Like, I knew it was over. Why wouldn't you have driven off? Well, I did. the survival instinct. I did drive off. But at the point, I turned the dude over, like, dude, you know, like, I was mad.

Like, what are you doing, dude? You know, I carry a gun, you stupid fucker, you know? And I got in the car and split. Because she stalled the car thinking they were shooting at us and whatever. I told her, yeah, I get out of the car. And we drove off. Where did you hit the guys? Did you think you had killed them?

One dude in the lung. And another dude in the back and in the chest somewhere. Oh, wow. So they're lucky to be alive. Yeah. What kind of gun was it? It's just 22. I like carrying 22s.

You know, they're small, the barretta, they fit in your pocket. You can't see them. I like the safety zone. That was just me, you know. Did you call the ambulance? No, we've gone, dude. And I told the girl, I was like, hey, I'm going to send you to my buddy's house. And he's going to paint your car.

Yeah. Like right away. Okay. Otherwise, you know. And I told her, you know, because she's got kids. I remember telling her, like, when they catch you, just tell them what happened. I don't care. You know, because I'm done anyway.

I know I'm busted. And before we even got to the dude's house, my buddy's house, to paint the car, the cops are paging me. Like literally five minutes. Like you got a 911 on your pager? No, I got a call from my pager. Yeah, that's what I mean? It's the cops, you know?

Right. And they're like, hey, what's going on? I'm like, oh, nothing. What's happening? They're like, hey, you should come turn yourself in. I'm like, for what? They're like, you know for what? I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll be over there later.

And then that was it. I was on the run, you know? oh man i me and you are not the same i would have i would not have uh if i had shot and potentially killed two people i would be in mexico yeah you you just didn't seem again you were thinking like a drug addict so you weren't thinking like you you were just gave up right away i'm not saying what you did shooting somebody is right but like real criminals would shoot somebody and then go try to cover up their crime. It seems like the drug mind is such that it's like,

yeah, I don't care what happens to me. It was you really had a, I don't care. You had a great apathy towards everything, it seemed like, besides getting high. Is that accurate? Yeah. At that point, though, you know, there was a bunch of people that knew me there.

The cops already know who I am. They already know what's up. You know. If I had, you know, if I was smart, I would have ran, but then we're, you know, I don't want to go to Mexico. You know, you're going to get caught, you know, but I thought I was going to get life in prison. Like, because attempted murder is a life sentence. Two counts of attempted to murder is definitely a life sentence.

So, you know, I'm on the run thinking, you know, I'm done. This is over. Yes, you did go on the run for a couple of months. Yeah. Where did you run to? Just around Anaheim. Okay. So not very far.

Yeah. they were raiding houses looking for me. And I was just doing what I can survive. I'd sold everything. Yeah. It was on my motorcycle. I had GSXR. 750.

And I was just waiting. Yeah. You know, and then I was in the garage. My buddy, because my buddy broke the chain on it doing Willie. So I'm in the garage off of Delt Street in Anaheim. And I'm changing the chain.

And I got a terrible feeling, man. I'm like, something's wrong. Like, you know, like I didn't even bleed the clutch or nothing. Like, I'm out of here. I used to start As soon as I got out of the driveway Unmarked cars

Are coming from both directions And I was high-speed chase Yeah You know Oh you took them on a high speed Oh yeah Like at lunchtime Like running red lights

At 110 miles an hour Oh shit Yeah I went on for like 15 minutes You know And I clipped a crossing guard And crashed Like I just barely

Nicked them like on the Yeah Shoulder like whatever And I lost control And I slid for like I don't know how long on my elbows. I tumbled.

I was, yeah, I was bleeding everywhere. And I got up and ran and, you know, I jumped a couple fences and ended up in a janitor's, kick the janitor's closet down off of, I think it was like Lincoln or something or could tell it. I can't remember exactly. And just shut the door and lit a cigarette. Because the helicopter, because I ditched the cops. Yeah.

But I was flying down the street and the gear shifter fell off because I didn't have time to put everything back together. So I pulled over to pit the gear shifter back on, you know, I had to turn the bike off and I could hear the helicopter. So I knew at that point, you know, it's pretty much over, you know. So I just kicked the door down, lit a cigarette and was just waiting. I could hear him running outside. Yeah.

Over here, over here, you know. They kicked the door down. I had like nine guns in my face. So it was just like with a cigarette in my mouth, like, you know, that was it. And the cops said, like, one of the investigators stopped me and said, like, when I was, they were taking me to the car, he's like, you should have turned yourself in. These guys said they started everything. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm thinking like, turn myself in. Are you crazy?

And then I get to court. And I was like, my public defender goes, hey, they're often used six years, 85% two strikes. I'm like, yeah, I'll sign it. Oh, wow. So you didn't even put up a,

you didn't even argue the strikes. No, but I should have. Right. You know, I messed up. I just, you know, six years, 85%. I'm at, yeah, what's up, you know? So basically, let's talk about that really quick. For people that don't understand

the strike system in California, could you break it down for the people? Okay. So when the California three strike law came out, it was supposed to be, you know, free violent felonies you get life. Yeah. And that's mandatory, right? Yeah. Like, so the judge doesn't have discretion if you have your third strike.

You know, just like any other law that Congress passes or anybody passes, there's always a way to manipulate it. Right. You know, so they were just striking people out for everything. Yeah. Pizza, half gram of this or whatever. And that went on for a lot of time until they came out with, uh, when they came out with I forget the law it was

but it came out where you know these people that did get convicted like that they gave them a chance and they let them back out you know right but at the time yeah it was this is the mid 90s and when at first I remember reading about it it you know a 17 year old girl

was like shot to death in Fresno and the guys that did it got like 17 months and that was the and that was poly class I think. I think the name of her was Polly Class and that's her father's the one that pushed for this law. For the law, yeah. And even he was like

you know, once they started using it and they started manipulating the law. He was like, well, wait a minute. It wasn't supposed to do that. It's too much. Right. So what prosecutors did and we in Oregon, there's something called Measure 11, which is a version of three strikes, but it's essentially just mandatory minimums

for violent crime. So what it did was gave tons of power to prosecutors. So in cases like yours, to just get people to plea out, because you were, I mean, look, you had the people you shot said that they started it. Like, you had a real self-defense case here.

Now, you could maybe argue that you overdid it, right? It was an unnecessary use of force. But that's like a, that's like manslaughter three or something. You know, that's not something you get six years on on your first felony. But the prosecutors, knowing that they have the strike system offer you

that they use it as a way to get you to take a plea really quick. Like here's six years, it's not that bad, but you've got to take two strikes. Yeah. And they still do that at all times, you know? That's serious.

So you should have fought it, right? If I would have just, like, put it off for another couple court cases, I might have been able to get it down to three years, but I still think I would have got the two strikes. You know what I mean? Because when I went back to the county jail, people like,

you would go to the guy this time. I was like, dude, I thought it was getting live here. Six years, I shot two people. I'm signing this. I'm gone. I'm getting out. I'm going to prison. Well, yeah.

I mean, I would think, gosh, I'd rather take a little more time and no strikes or one strike. Yeah, but that wasn't, you know, that wasn't happening at the time. That wasn't an option. Yeah. So for me, for me, you know, I got those two strikes. That was it. Anything I do, I'm lucky I didn't get struck out in prison at that point. Right.

Like, I was very lucky to make it through how I did. kid, you know. Right. There were times when I was, you know, bringing knives out of the kitchen. Yeah. Or, you know, getting a cell hit. We had meth or just whatever. Is, uh, was the third strike, but it had to be a felony though, right? On your third strike? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Any felony after, you know, you were done. Yeah. Literally. If you were selling a bag of weed. Yeah. And you caught a felony off of that, that's, that would send you to prison for life. And, uh, I remember telling myself, If I make it out of here, I'm not getting in trouble. I'm done, you know.

Okay. You know, and that's the mindset I had. Okay. And I went through my six years. Okay, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. So tell us about that first stretch. Where did you go?

I went to Sentinela, level three. I was there for, you know, I don't know, three to six months. And I was fighting a lot. You almost started a riot my first day. on the yard with the Mexicans, you know. How did that come about? Well, I was on the phone, and these Mexican kids come up to me and say, it's my phone time. I'm like, no, it's not.

Like, in my mind, no, it's not. Like, you know, I'm just a white kid. I got no tattoos. You know, just looking at me, like, you know, whatever. Like, they're going to just get over on me. And I'm like, no, it's not. And they're like, yeah, it is. Wood, you know, like this and that.

I go, okay, well, I'm going to go look at the list. I've come back here. You don't get off the phone. We're going to have a problem. I don't know the, really know the rules at this time. I just like fresh, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, whatever. All I know is that

if somebody's disrespecting me, I should just take off on them at that time. Right. I'm not realizing the consequences, you know. So I go, my name's on the list. I come back there, he don't get off the phone. He's on with his family. I just take off on him. Yeah. So they put the yard down to take his program office. And then when I come back, my cellie's packing a stuff. I'm like, what are you doing? He goes,

dude, we're going to get a right because of this. He goes, I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's going to be right because of this. Oh my God. It turned into a big old thing. And luckily, I used to run around with these Mexicans in Anaheim. And one of them was there.

And he spoke up for me. Yeah. And said, like, hey, this guy used to run around with us a little bit, whatever. Like, you know, whatever. It all blew over. Right. It was for a while there was kind of like, it almost started, you know, a riot. Yeah. And then the shot caller for the yard, the white guy at the time, too, was all strung out on heroin. So he was kind of like a sympathizer for these dudes.

Yeah. So, you know, luckily, I knew a guy, a Mexican dude, that kind of whatever. So who were you running with? Nobody had taken you under their wing? Well, I was just, I was from CWB. I was from crazy white boys. But, you know, the whites run with the whites. Yeah.

And you're all doing what the Aryan Brotherhood tells you to do. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And there, where is the Aryan Brotherhood given orders from? Pelican Bay. From the shoe. From the shoe.

To Corcoran shoe and Pelican Bay. Yeah. Yeah. But I was on a level three, which is really like level, level ones are really just, they're nothing. Level two's are really nothing. Level three is okay. But people are not getting killed all the time. It's not as serious it is when you go to level four.

Once you go to level four yard in California, that's where everything's like really, like serious. When was the first level four you went to? I went to Corcoran. so that last you know after that some other stuff happened and I ended up going to Corcoran okay so now you've

with the big boys now it's level four yeah now it's extremely serious 25 years old yeah first you know haven't even been in prison a year yet wow and there's no fist fighting on level fours well it just depends where you're at you know

people will sit there I see dudes on TikTok talking about all this crazy stuff but it just really depends on what yard you're on what was Corcoran like corkron was it was different like when I got off the bus there we're walking back with

we're walking back with our stuff to the building and you know this northerner guy is getting stabbed you know right off the bat that was my first you know my first memory of level four watching that as you walk into the prison and then they put the yard down and you know we finally

get back to ourselves after they search everybody you know if you go on lockdown for a little bit they lay everybody off but the northerners and you know they stay on for another week or whatever until they investigate. And then, imagine that being your first introduction to level four prison.

Yeah. Somebody getting stabbed. Was it Mexican on Mexican? Serenio on Northerner on Northerners? Yeah. Northerners are stabbing one of their own. Oh, the disciplining. Yeah.

Okay. For whatever reason. I don't know. But, and then I was on orientation for a couple weeks, and then I went, got a cellie. And then as soon as I get to sellee, some guys come out of the hole with a kite and then ended up being my sally with something happened with him on another yard he's got to go so they're like hey so how does that work that's my sally how does it with it you know well so you get a kite from I didn't get the kite the kite came from the hole some guy came out of the hole yeah you know what I mean and then my homeboys come up tell me hey you know what this is what's going on and whatever so I had to deal with it well so what did your sally do the man of had to go I just be the hell out of them.

But what did he do, though? I don't really know exactly. Like, I don't know. But, you know, something happened on another yard. Is he a drug dead or whatever, you know? So did they tell you what you had to do? Or he just, like, when a kite comes from out of the hole, when orders come down from up top and they say, okay, you got to get rid of your celly, do they tell you, you got to kill him or just beat him up? Or do they just say he's got to get off the...

Back then at that time. This yard obviously wasn't that serious. Otherwise, we would have dealt with it in a different way. You know, killing became a sport later on in prison. Like, you know, it just whole depends on what yard you're on. They're just like, hey, he's got to get rid of him, just fucking beat the hell out of him. You know, I got a shoe out of it because he bled and there was, you know, he got fucked up. So I got a shoe out of that and went to the shoe, came back out and they put me on a yard at Corcoran.

But it just depends on what yard you're on. Right. You know, it just depends, dude. Like, what happens? Like, you know, like later on in the prisons that I went to, they were a little bit different, like the 180 yards, where it was like a sport. Like, you had to get caught.

You had to kill the guy, you know. You know, and then one guy would tackle him, stabbing the legs, and the other guys would just stab him, you know. And we were cutting knives out of lockers, you know, that were, you know, you get those little black paper clips, you know what I'm talking about that whole paper together Yeah

You break those in half You could cut metal So you know You're cutting the lockers out The biggest knife You know Yeah And I've seen some brutal murders dude

Wow Like this one kid I remember one time This I'll never forget And this was what This was later on And this was later on In doing time

Where I was older And I was just like But anyways This kid got busted For killing a couple of his friends And drunk driving accident or something like that. He ends up on the yard.

It's just a kid. On a 180 yard, mind you. Which they don't do that no more. They stop sending kids to those yards because they were just, you know, whatever. They just stopped doing it. And this kid was caught getting coffee from a black guy. Like, you know, getting coffee from an orientation.

Yeah. And none of the white porter seen it. So he's on the yard. There's only like 15 of us on the yard, you know. There's not in many ways. whites on those high levels like that, you know, on those yards. And they're out there, hey, we're going to get him when he comes off. They're going to stab the dude, you know.

Over a bag of coffee. Well, because he got it from a black guy. And so explain that. You can't do any kind of trading with a different race? Not blacks. Or northerners at that time. Why? Because the blacks run with the northerners.

And that's the enemy? Yeah. Well, yeah. It's just one of the racist, stupid, freaking rules is what it comes down to. So, you know, and I, I'm arguing with the shot caller like, dude, he's a kid, man. Just give him a chance. Well, you know, before you end up on a yard, you end up in a reception center

where usually somebody will tell you, don't do this, don't do that, whatever. You know, that's what they were, you know, arguing. Well, he was told, you know, before, you know. I'm like, he's just a kid, man. Just give him a chance. Let's work with him, whatever, you know. Yeah. So they're like, all right, all right.

You know, whatever. So, you know, this takes a couple weeks to get off orientation. And the kid comes out to yard. And, you know, there's like four or five guys. walking with him all laughing with him and then a guy cold trailing him obviously you know the dude's got a knife you know i've got to see what's going to happen so i'm looking at the shot call like hey you know what the fuck dude and i start walking over there and now the shot call is like yelling at me like hey come here you know hey you know and now everybody's looking you know i turned back i'm like dude what the fuck man

and uh by the time i turned around the guy already had the kid you know stabbing him you know the kid's screaming and you can see the knife so big you can see it coming out of his jack it like out the other side. You know what I mean? Yeah. And he's screaming for his mom, the kid, you know. Yeah. And I was like, fuck, dude.

And they put the yard down. The kid was already dead. But, you know, the biggest thing that bothers me about that. And it happens all the time is that those same guys that orchestrated all that are, you know, getting heroin or coke or whatever from these black guys on the down low. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, they all are.

Critical, bro. Of course, dude. You know, and I remember just sitting there in the snow, man, and I'm just looking at these guys, and they're, like, laughing, and I'm just like, fuck. So this happened when it was snowing? Yeah. Is this at high desert prison now? Yeah.

Okay. This was years. It was just like, you just, it's just, yeah. Did what, what happened? What became of that? Did they ship the guys out? Well, they sent them to the hole. They got busted for murder.

Yeah. Yeah. And then the guy that could cut the locker, he gets busted too because they search all the cells. You know, it just trickles down. So do those guys get another life sentence if you kill somebody and get caught for murder when you're already doing life? Yeah, but they're probably like doing life without or just doing life thinking they're never getting out or just whatever. Yeah. Or they're just straight killers.

You know, it just doesn't or they're just that. Yeah. Yeah. So, but before any of this happens, you finally put in work, you know, you beat some, you beat some. beat up your celly really bad. You get sent to your first A. This is years later. I know.

We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. We're, I'm, you know, but. This happened a lot. Like, I was 40 something. I don't know, 42, 43. But, you know, before that, I went through a bunch of different prisons.

You know, I went to Sines Valley or whatever. But like, a lot of people, what I've learned, me and my buddy talk about this a lot. Because he did a life sentence, too. But, you know, like, a lot of these guys like, you know, do whatever to go back to the shoe and just hang out and just stay back there. Right. So they can hang out because it's really like it's being back in the shoe, you're in Pelican Bay, you're single-sailed. Right.

So you're away from all the bullshit. Right. You don't have to deal with it. They'd rather stab somebody or kill their cellies so they could be single-sale and then stay back there. Right. So they don't have to deal with it. Right. Or other dudes will try to get away with it.

Right. You know what I mean? They'll try to get away with their stabbing or whatever so they could beat them whatever. Yeah. You know, uh, that's, that shows you just how rough some of these places are. And just like how maddening, you know, being in those conditions is. Like, people would rather be isolated in the, the, the special housing unit, because you could just get some privacy. Oh, I mean, like, I'm not going to lie to you. I'd be happy when we went on lockdown. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're just in there with your cell. Yeah. Kick back. Work out. Yeah. Watch TV. Yeah.

You know, but these guys would do that to get back there to be around certain people so they could be recognized so they could do whatever. Yeah. And that's how dudes get made, you know, a lot of them. When you were at Corcoran, when you went to the high-level yard at Corcoran after you got out of the hole for the first time, did you have new respect for putting in that work? Well, to me, that was, this is the way I looked at it. I always looked at it like this. I think people think, oh, I'm so tough. I went, you know, I stabbed this dude 50 times and he didn't even know what was going to happen.

To me, that's not tough. Like the old days or whatever, like, you know, it was different. Like, I think that to go up with somebody with a knife and just start stabbing him and think that's tough or think that's whatever, I think it's cowardly. The more I look at it now as I'm older, it would be tough if you went up there and gave him a knife and you had a knife and said, okay, yeah, let's do it. this. That's tough. Yeah. You know, like back in the day where you get two guns and say, hey, let's shoot this out. Yeah, but my question is, did you have respect for, but, you know, are you starting to gain respect within the ranks of the white group, the white prison groups?

Everybody does in the beginning. You know, it's one of them things. Okay, yeah, this guy's a good dude. He did this or whatever. Like, you know, but, you know, the more I look at it now, you know, I think it, uh, you know, except like the sex offenders. I mean, they, they, you know, it's just whatever. I just think that, you know, I don't think that's tough. During the first stretch where you're doing six, and you did basically day for day, right? Yeah.

I was maxed out my first three months. And how do you get maxed out? You just get trouble. You lose all your good time. Yeah, I only had like, I don't know, six years, 85% what, 15% a good time? That was gone fast. That's easy, right? I think I actually was gone before I even got to Centinella.

Oh, wow. Yeah, because I got fights at, you know, the reception center. Were you on drugs this whole time? Or did you get clean when you went in? No, there's drugs here and there, you know? You don't do a lot of drugs because there's just expensive. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Right. But there's here and there. It happens, comes through, people kick you down or whatever, you know. So this is your first time being sober for a really long time. Oh, yeah. I started gaining weight, you know, like I was always a skinny kid. Yeah. was working out.

Did you have any hustles in there? I worked in the kitchen. You know what I mean? So I used to make wine. You know, whiskey, all that stuff and do that. Okay. So what else? Was there any other drama when you went to that higher level yard at Corcoran?

Like, did you keep getting in worse trouble? Or were you able to kind of just coast until you got out? So I got, my silly ended up being the shock caller a little bit. bit after my other cellie left and uh he was from orange county and he was kind of like so i kind just kind of kicked back you know what i mean because you knew i had two strikes yeah so what happened was i almost got busted with coming out of the kitchen with nice because we were going to get a riot and uh with the blacks so a black dude went up on a white boy sale and they took off on him over money or whatever right and that's you can't do that no you can't do that so okay we're going

you know we're we're telling all the blacks oh it's cool don't worry about it you know but we're getting ready, you know? Yeah. So at Old Corcoran, they got these light covers and they're metal. They're like, you know, little metal, two little metal things and cover the light from so when we get broken. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, well, I'm getting this. Yeah.

So I'm up. So I was a cook. So we came in before everybody else. And it was like me by myself and a couple blacks or whatever. And I jump up on the, on the grill, which is the grill and rip it off the thing. You know, it just comes off. And I'm in the back stomping it down, you know, so I can get it put it down my pants. And the black's like, hey, what's going on?

You know, like, what are you doing? And they're, you know, nothing. I'm just taking this. You know what I've done too. Yeah, but all that shit is squashed, you know, they're like, you know, because one of the shot callers is in the kitchen. Like, I don't know. Like, because they're starting to trip now. Right.

What was this kid grabbing this for, you know? So I stomp it down, you know, I put it in a thing. And I used to take the C.T. Hugh carts to the buildings. The C.T. Hugh cart is like. you know, people that, like, on a land, you know, they're sick. Yeah. They can't, you know, come out of their cell or whatever. I used to take it to building to building.

So I got to stay on my pants. But we used to get searched like every time coming out. Right. Every time. They didn't always search us, but they would open the card to see what's... Right. There's a little, like, you know, a bunch of sugar. Right, right, right.

And my buddy comes to the door from the yard. And I'm like, look, I'm coming out at a CTQ card. She's like, no, dude, they're going to catch you. I'm like, I'm doing it. Like, I'm doing it. Like, I'm doing it. Like, I didn't care. I'm doing it.

And so I'm pushing the card out, you know, and the cops were, like, talking to a sergeant. They weren't really paying attention. So I just walked by. I get a little down the way. She's like, hey, Curtis, get over here. You know? And I'm like, oh, fuck. And you got all these knives, these new knives in your pants.

Like down my pants right here, you know. And it's like, Curtis, get over here. What are you doing? You know, we've got to search the cart. I'm like, oh, fuck. You know? So they search the cart. They just search me.

Wow. And my buddy's, you know, walking the child. I can see him. Because I told him, as soon as you start walking the chat, I'm going to come out and I'll give it to you, like, in front of four block or whatever. And he's like, dude, so I pass it off to him or whatever. Wow. But he's like, dude, you got two strikes, dude. So getting caught with knives is a felony?

Oh, yeah. It's the fuck you'd be done. It's weapon stock. Wow. It's not a knife. It's just metal at the time. It's just metal, yeah. But it's weapon stock.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did the riot kick off? You got the. No. what ended up happening

to, again, this wasn't really that serious of a yard, that's why I say that. Yeah. So what ended up happening was the white boy just had to stab to the black dude, so he stabbed him, you know, whatever. Yeah, ran him off. Whatever, and that was it. Right. But, you know, again, any other yard or, you know, some crazy

yard, it would have immediately been dealt with. What was the, okay, so you made it through without catching another case, Your first stretch. Did you do anything productive? Did you think about like what you were going to do when you came home?

I got my GED. What did you plan on doing when you got out? Not coming back to prison. Okay. So you didn't, so you were not like the others at least. That's how you, your mentality was like,

okay, I don't want to be around these guys. I mean, I just, uh, I wasn't really, uh, just looking to really make a name for myself.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I just didn't care about, you know what I mean? I was trying to get out and stay, you know. So there never any other close calls, your first, your first stretch? Yeah, we almost got, we got the house. We were getting, we were hitting dope. And we just got rid of it all, you know, like the night before and the gooners were there early in the morning.

Oh, so you guys were. The house. And they were like, you know, they're like, you lucky. I remember the gooner, he lucky motherfuckers, man. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because we got everything out of there, you know? So do they raid your cell the way, like in SWAT gear, the way they raid a house on the streets?

They only do that, like, if they're going to come and sell extract you. Right, right. They'll come in all the gear, whatever. Right, right. Just the goons, flawed comes, you know, they just, fly it, pull the door open. Were you selling dope? Were you holding it for somebody? We were selling it.

We were getting it. Wow. So this, we had a friend that had his sister coming up. So me and my homeboy would send dope to her, and then he would go out to visit, and then he would give it to us. you know. What do you mean? Like so she would pass it to him in the visiting room and he would go home and then he would have it and then he would give it to us on the yard. When you say go home, it sounds like you're talking about free people. Yeah, yeah, just for people that know real lifers, the cell is the house.

Yeah. And when you go home, that means going back to your cell. It's kind of a trip. I didn't call my bunk. I just hit it. My bed, my bunk. Yeah. I'm going to go sit on my bunk. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, dude. Sometimes I say that and I laugh It's jail shit No I get it did What are you doing I'm just sit on my bunk

You know And I'm at home Yeah Real bad you know Wow so you had a bunch of dope On you got rid of it Before the cops came Yeah

We didn't know they were coming Yeah We got lucky You know Luckily we got rid of it all Right Did you make some money While you were in there

Yeah we made a little bit of money Did you use though Oh yeah Okay so you're back on drugs When you go to Corcoran Yeah a little bit here and there You know Yeah

So but then you get out You're How old are you when you get out? It's 2002, right? 30 years old. And you basically went right back to... No, actually, you know, I was doing good, man. I got a good job working for Miller Pipeline. You know, we were, had your driving company trucks.

It was a good job. It was a union job. Yeah. And I got a girlfriend and I moved in with her and then one day she brought meth home. And I'm like, she's like, let's go. I was like, no, like I can't. Like, you know. And, uh, but then she's buying it and I don't want to pay for it, you know, so I start

selling it. Because I know a bunch of people. So I start selling it, you know, and I'm making money. I'm selling a lot. Like a pound a day, you know. A pound of meth? Yeah, day, you know. Holy shit.

And then what happened was just to tweakers to, or to dealers? Just to everybody, you know, whoever, you know. And then. What was your, what was your key to, because that's a lot of weight. I mean, that's almost 500, grams. It's 448 grams. That's a lot of, but that's a lot of customers. It just depends if you sell ounces or just little bits here and there, but it goes pretty fast, bro.

God, what is it about normal, like, middle class people in Orange County that just you do meth like it's the way that we would smoke weed in Portland, Oregon? I don't get it. Yeah. It's just something about that. At that time, everybody was doing it. You know, if you're on the streets or whatever, everybody's doing it. And then you've got people that are doing it that are just normal people that are functioning drug addicts. Right.

You know, that can do it. Like your father was. Yeah, that can do meth and go to work or just whatever. They just taking care of their whatever. Yeah. But then one day I was drinking and I used it. And that was it. You know, I remember walking into my buddy's hotel room and he's like, look, he's back.

Like he could see that I'm on it. And he's like, he's back. You know what I mean? Like. Fuck. And I'll never forget that. And then right away, I was asking him, hey, I need a gun. He's like, oh, God.

Like, you know, he's like, no, dude. I'm like, I need a gun, bro. And then from there on, that was it, you know. How long had you been out when you, when you hit the pipe again? About three months. Yeah. About three months, you know, and five months later, you know, I was back in the county jail. You were jammed up. Yeah.

Didn't your, did your girlfriend not know or care that you had two strikes? and he were fresh out of prison? She was just a normal person, really. She used drugs here and there. But obviously she didn't know. But I left her immediately. You know, immediately I was gone. You know, I never went back.

The cops were looking for me because now I'd give him a dirty test. At that time, you give a dirty test, it's a year. You get me here, right out the bad. There's no, like, now it'll be like 30 days in jail or whatever. Back then it was like, yeah, you're going back to prison for a year. Right. Just for probation violation. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not the kind of person to turn myself in.

You know, it's like, come and get me. You know, that's how I've always been. And it was on from there, you know. So you were just selling meth, hiding out? Yeah, I was at this time. Doing meth, obviously. Now I was going from state, you know, going to Idaho, dropping drugs off there, Lake Havasu, Arizona.

Yeah. You know, just driving back and forth. And I would try to stay. out of Orange County. I would stay for about 24 hours. But I knew I couldn't stay longer than that, you know. So you just come back to re-up and then take it to other states? To Lake Havasu, and then from Lake Havasu, I'd go to Idaho, you know.

And one day I stayed too long. Yeah. And I come out of the hotel room and unmarked cars, you know. Actually, it was a regular cop car that had his lights on. I didn't really know what he was doing at the time. Yeah. But it was like, yeah, turn this way, like something was going on. I didn't know.

So I turn, go around him, pulling the gas station, and that unmarked cars surrounded me. Yeah. And I'm looking at each one of them. And I'm like, I got a Glock 45 on my lap and a bunch of freaking meth. You know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, God. And they left a little opening. So I took off.

Got a high speech again. Oh, shit. So there's a felony right there. The Glock. The Glock. It's just done. Anything. Like right there at that point, it's over.

You know, no matter what I do. I'm done. You know, a gun in the commission of a gun. crime. It's just over. Yeah. So I'm in another high-speed chase. But this time I was like, I knew that I didn't want to hit nobody. Yeah.

Because that's a violent strike, you know? So even though I know whatever, but in the back of my mind I have a little bit more sense, like, don't hit nobody this time. So you're taking off. So I'm not going real fast enough to kind of get away. I just wanted to get away and get rid of everything. So I turned here, I was by the Anheim

Stadium somewhere and I've pulled in this apartment complex, pull up, you know, drive up on the grass jump out of the car jump over a fence there's a pit bull right there and I'm like oh are you are you throwing are you ditching the bath but I'm going I'm on my way to do that you know but I jumped right in the fence with a pit bull he's looking at me and I'm like fucking jump the other way jumped over another fence and I started dumping it in pools like just getting rid of it yeah I had a lot of it and uh and I got the gun so I get rid of old the dope you know and uh and at this point I got the gun on me I know I got to get rid of it I'm like if I got to get

rid of this gun. So there's helicopters already here because they already know I'm going to run. Yeah. I do it. I did it before. Yeah. So they had the helicopter already there. When they, our cars were there, the helicopter was there. And so I'm like walking on top of this fence. And when the helicopter light went off at me, I balanced the gun on a tree branch, jumped off the thing, jumped over another wall and there was a bunch of cops there. Get down. It was over. And so the next day, the cops pulled me out. Now, you know, I go to jail. Yeah.

The cops pull me out. And they're like, hey, you know, we found the gun. I'm like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. You know? I'm like, I'm out of here. I just walked out. You know what I mean? Like, I'm done.

I walked out. And so what happened was in the police report, the girl that lived at the house was picking lemons out of her tree. And the gun fell out of the tree and landed in the bucket with the lemons. Oh, fuck. And then she called the cops? Yeah, of course, because they were just there the night before, you know? Damn. but, you know,

they have your prints on it? Well, I don't think the guns, those guns keep prints on them. Oh, really? Yeah, something to do. They didn't have no prints on it.

Okay. But, I'm just glad, you know, I thought about it, like, what if the kid would have found that shit, you know?

Like, if a kid would have found that gun, whatever, climbing, you know, it could have been bad. But, yeah,

I was done, dude. Okay, hold on, hold on. I just, I hate all of this right now. My lawyer brain is like,

so pissed off. They didn't have, they didn't have any proof that it was your gun. Did they have any dope? Yeah, they found still, they found three ounces. Three ounces of dope.

Something like that. Three ounces. Because they went back to my hotel room too. Oh, I see. So they knew I was staying. They were watching it. I see.

So you had product at the hotel? Yeah. They found all sorts of stuff. So you had a lot of meth on you. Okay. Yeah. I just got, I just picked up.

I was ready to drop something off and I was taking back off out of state, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So they basically charge you with, all that gun meth. Pay-o sheet. They found the skill, the pay-o sheet. What is the pay-o sheet?

Payote. No, people that owe me money. Oh. I thought Pay-O was slang for peyote. I'm like, oh, wow, this guy was, uh, he was into peyote dealing. And then, uh, I was with this girl. And, uh, she came to stay the night with me. And, uh, she had like one of those crates.

Yeah. Full of birth certificates. Just did the, she was under the fraud thing. I see. And it was just full of, you know, whatever. And she split before that. And so all that stuff was there. So I got charged with all that stuff.

Oh, so you took the fraud charge too. So you have all these felonies and you don't have a paid lawyer. Why don't you get a paid lawyer? Don't you have some money from all that meth? Yeah, but at that point, it doesn't matter. They're not going to be able to do anything. You didn't want to waste your money on a lawyer. They don't go to do anything, dude.

So what are you facing now? It's 107 years of life. Wow. At the beginning, I was like, oh, yeah, whatever. You know, like, whatever. But then I remember after a while, I was just like, you know, like, my, because I didn't even call my mom. Like, my mom was calling me every day, and I just ignored her, like, to the point where I had to give my phone to my home girl, like, here, I don't want this phone no more.

It got a different one. You know what I mean? And I, you know, I just, you know, let everybody down, dude. Yeah. My mom, my daughter, you know. And, uh, yeah, dude, it was like, it was the weirdest thing when they said, you know what I knew it was going to happen. but once I got the life sentence, it was like, man. It's over.

How do you even describe what getting sentenced to life in prison is like? You know, it's hard to describe it. It's got to be surreal, right? Yeah, it's like, you know, with all these other people in court and they're crying about, I got to do 60 days. And, you know, I remember that. Just hearing these guys going like, you know, it's just crazy, dude, knowing you're going to get life, just going to court and just, you know.

And then plus being, you know, in the, in IRC where you're locked down 23 hours a day, you just, you know, it was terrible, dude. It was like one of the worst things I went through. Yeah. You know. Knowing I had a second chance and I just, I ruined it, dude. Yeah. You know? And once I got to prison, I was okay.

Yeah. Because you're out and about. Yeah. You know, you could do whatever. But I just remember being depressed, you know. like just it was horrible yeah and the prisons are so overcrowded at this time because it's a bunch of guys like you third strikers yeah but the thing about that is that was always in a cell anyways so i was never in these gyms where you got three bunks or i never had to deal with no no you were in high level security but so this is the overcrowding so we were in the cells i was in a cell with just another person yeah the gym on the yard was converted into bunk beds right with three three bunks on a bed. So, you know, yeah, it was overcrowded,

but I didn't have to deal with the really bad part of that. Right. You know, being on a yard with a bunch of people. That's... Why do you get the, your own cell? Because, you know, I'm a lifeer. You're doing life. Or just whatever.

You're level four. If you're a level four inmate, you can't be in a jam. You can't be in a dorm. You can't do none of that. That was over three months. Into your first stretch. Actually, it was over when I went to prison because of my, you know, my crime. Okay.

You know what I'm saying? at that point, at that time, I never had to experience that because I just, I was automatically level three because of my crime for the shooting. Yeah. My points were high. Yeah. You know, I never had to deal with that. Yeah.

So it's just by the nature of your crime, that dictates where you're going to go. Yeah. And what level security you're going to be. Yeah. So now you're level four straight away because you're a lifer. Well, I was level four when I paroled. Right. You know what I mean?

I was already level four. But when you got in for your first, you're going to, now you think you got, you got life. Yeah. You got 28. You settled 28 years to life. So with a sentence like that, back in the day, that meant you were doing life. Yeah, that was it. If you, just because you had like a minimum, which is 28 years, if you had life after it,

they weren't parole on those guys at all, right? It's not happening, bro. So 28 is just kind of like a formality. That was like when you go before the parole board. Is that how that works? Yeah. You have to go to board to get out at that point. But is 28 years the-

7 to life? 10 to life. But what is the 28 for? Is that the minimum? Well, that was the minimum they give me. So you get 25 to life for, you know, the crime. Yeah. And then the enhancements was like a year for the high-speed chase because I had a prior,

a year for the gun, and then a year for something else. I can't remember. Right. That's why it's 28 to life. But do you go before when you have that number, do you still get your day before the parole board? Yeah. Okay. If you got life, you still go to the board, but they were just denying everybody.

Right. he was getting found suitable. Right. And now that's all changed. Oh, that's all changed. Could you tell us about that? Okay, so I forget when it was around 2013, maybe, they came out with this thing called Insight. And what happened was a bunch of lifers got together and sued to the federal court over that.

Hey, they're not letting this out, but, you know, they're just denying this for everything. Wow. Oh, you don't got, third biggest thing was you don't got insight. You're being denied. You don't got insight. You don't have this. You don't have that, you know. And then lawyers and lifers started suing over that.

And it slowly started to change in 2013. Oh, wow. So that's what they would tell you at the board is. Yeah, you don't have no insight. What is ins, yeah, like, what is that supposed to mean? Okay, so for a life for, okay, so insight is this. Okay, it's, I'll give you an example. I had to write an insight paper.

Right. You know, part of the board packet. Right. Before you go to board, you have to submit a packet. Yeah. You know, insight paper. paper, relapse prevention plans, where you're going to go, plan, all your groups and all this stuff.

Yeah. And the Insight papers, what it does is it tells you, and it just kind of, you want to run them through how you became who you were. Yeah. And how you changed. You know what I'm saying? So, like, for me, my causative factors, you know, was I was a drug addict, criminality

you know substance abuse whatever so like me my dad when I my dad started my cocaine you know the causative factors I became a drug addict at a young age I adopted criminality I adopted all these character defects or whatever

right you know and you got to understand that so you got to be able to pinpoint that stuff out in your insight paper right you know and how you became who you were and then who you are now right you know and so the board was denying everybody's inside papers. They were just, and a lot of these dudes should have been let out.

Yeah. They died in prison because, you know, whatever. Yeah. Because, uh, because, uh, because power people, human beings are, are the judges and the prosecutors and the people sitting on the parole board. They're just human beings. And humans are just irresponsible when they have power over other people. It's a defect in our evolution.

You know what I mean? So, yeah, they had to be sued and they had to have the federal government step in, you know, And then when you get found suitable, the governor wasn't signing it. Because still the governor's got to sign it. Oh, so the governor has to sign off in every lifer who's getting paroled? Every lifer that's gotten out in the state of California has to be signed off by the governor. Wow.

So Schwarzenegger was giving you no love. Well, they don't want to sign. They're not going to be responsible for you getting out because as far as they're concerned, you're going to get out and you're going to go right back to doing what you were doing. They don't want that on their, you know, conscious. Yeah. And if you kill somebody and it comes out in the news that Schwarzenegger signed off on

Chris, you know, and then he goes and kills somebody, you look bad. That's another thing. You got to prove to them, you're not going to be a threat to society. Yeah. You know, so. So it's an almost an impossible standard of proof. It was. Yeah.

It was until, you know, they started, you know, changing and people started practicing. So I was lucky to have a Selly that would help me kind of understand all this stuff. Right. Because I went to a ton of groups, man. In 2015, I started doing. all sorts of groups. Yeah. Yeah.

Victim's Impact. Houses of Healing. Just everything. Right. And I spent hours and hours and hours in these groups at night. You know, we'd go for an hour like on Tuesday or Wednesday, whenever the group was being held. Yeah. I got into all that stuff.

And I never in my life thought I'd be able to get out through the board. I just didn't think it was possible because it was just so it was hard thing to do. Like to go up in there and explain to these people how you've changed. Yeah. You know, and I never thought I was going to get found suitable. How many people are in a parole board hearing? Like, how many people were on the board? You got, uh, it just depends.

Like I had two. Oh, that's, I had two. That's nothing. And then my lawyer, you know? Yeah. Oh, it's tough, dude. Oh, I believe it, though. It depends who you have, you know.

It used to be like three or whatever, but it just depends, you know, who's available at the time. Right. But, you know, so many people are going to board now and getting out, you know, that, you know, It was just, you know. Yeah, well, the pendulum has swung the other way. The society was changing around this time. The attitudes towards incarceration and around drug addiction and how that, you know, causes all of this criminality.

So that, the history was in your favor, too, a little bit. Yeah. So, but let's talk about when you went in. So tell us about, tell us about this second stretch. You ended up doing 20 years on this second stretch before you got paroled. Where did you go? Where did you first go? I went to Salinas Valley.

Salinas Val. What is that like? What was that prison? It was level four. It was crazy, you know? How so? Well, when I got to that yard, you know, I didn't really know what was going on, but, you know, there was a lot of crazy stuff going on with the whites. like the shock collar of the yard

sold the table our table to the Paisas for a gram of dope like our table where we hang out there was some weird stuff going on and I remember some of the Mexicans would come up to me go hey you got to get out of here because this yard's in trouble

I'm like what like you know again I really don't like whatever you know what I mean but so I remember I was there for I don't know maybe six or seven months and I wanted to stab this black guy

You know? Over what? Because he disrespected this old man That was a good dude Like he's just an older dude He's disrespect him yelling at him or whatever Yeah On lockdown

So I'm like I sent word out to the yard Like I told somebody in the building And they went out to the yard Because at this point Really nobody's running in the yard As far as I'm concerned

You know It's chaos That's bad Whatever It's bad when people are running the yards They are but they're not Yeah A bunch of dudes running around

Like you know I don't know what's going on I, anyways, what happened was they called me out to the yard. Like, hey, hey, you can't do that. There's a war back there going on with the white boys from C yard and this yard. I'm like, what do you mean? They go, yeah, anybody that comes from this yard, they're killing them. Holy shit.

And I'm like, oh, like, yeah, you know, that's what kind of stupid shit goes on on these, you know, these prisons, dude. So why were you not allowed to stab the black guy? Well, because it would start a riot and then all these guys that obviously been on this yard too long are a part of, whatever what was going on that knew what was going on and wasn't dealing with it, they're going to go back there and they're whatever. No, I don't know what whatever means. Well, they're in trouble from being in that yard too long. All these guys that are there, they're involved in whatever was going on and they didn't

deal with it. So I guess what happened was there was a riot before I got there with the blacks. So the sea yard sent a kite out saying, hey, you guys got to get off the blacks again. They didn't do it. So all these guys on this yard are in trouble. because they didn't make a war on the blacks. They didn't deal with it. Wow.

You know? So everybody that was all the whites that were going on to the other yard were getting killed? Yeah. And did they actually? They would try. One guy got killed. One guy actually did. Wow.

I can't remember his name. I want to say Dagwood. Dagwood actually got killed back there over that. Wow. On the yard or in his cell? In a cell. Because you go in the cell, in the hole, you're in the cell. Yeah.

You're dealt with, you know, You're only going into the cages with you and your cellie on the yard. At that time, they call him the dog kennels. Yeah. And his celly killed him. Oh, my God. I don't know exactly how he killed him, but he killed him. Oh, yeah.

And then, so then the white parts are like, okay, well, now you want you in charge of this building or whatever. I'm like, yeah, all right. And then. Oh, so you were actually giving the keys to the yard. Not the yard, but that building. Okay. What's the difference? Well, you got five buildings on a yard.

I see. Okay. There's a shock call that each building. Okay. that reports to the guy that runs the yard. Right. I guess he's not running. You know,

it's one of them things. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, okay. So then I find out that, uh, the guy was running it before me.

There was a few child molesters there and he was making them pay money instead of dealing with it. Oh. That's what I would have done. But anyways, I'm all about money. But, you know,

in California, you can't do that. No. You know, how do child molesters slip in on a general population you're? It was back then it was like a mistake. It's just different. It's just different. It's just different. You know, this is just when the S&Y is starting. You know, you're familiar with the S&Y yards. No. So the S&Y yards are like PC yards. Right.

So you got the main line, you got the SMI yard. Right. Right. You know, so these guys can slip through. It just depends on where you go and who's really running everything. Right. Okay. So you found out this guy was... It's just like structure. How it's structured. Every yard's different. Right. You know, these guys have fake paperwork or whatever. or just whatever how it is they make it through. Or you got some guy that's like really not checking the paper or knows, but just making them pay instead. So what happened when you found out about this guy that was let the child... Now it's like me, these other guys, so I'm in a building with like maybe seven whites.

Yeah. Most of them are old. They're really not about nothing. Yeah. So now I'm stuck with all this shit, you know? So I, uh, they let us, and we were in lockdown. And they let the whites out shower and they let us run around or whatever.

It's relaxed. Like, they, you know, they do this. They, like, ease up and they relax. Yeah. And the guy was up in the still sleeping. The sex offender? Yeah. So I just went in there with, you know, a razor blade and cut his face up and shut the door and it's gone.

Right. How do you shut the door to somebody else's cell? Well, because it's just, oh. It's not a 180 cell where they control the door. Right. Oh, wow. So you could, like, crack your door. Yeah.

And this guy didn't come out to shower. He stayed in there and he was sleeping. And I'd like to get away with things. You know what I mean? Of course. You know, a lot of people, they just don't care or whatever. Yeah. And then, so I went in there, cut them up, and I left a cell.

Yeah. And I shut the door, you know. Yeah. So they go by afterwards because the sale he comes in and the cellies now, oh, what's going on, you know? They picked it for, whatever. Yards already down. We're already locked down. But he didn't tell on you?

No. Wow. So they take them out or whatever. So now, you know, whatever. And when you, did you dump the razor? I flushed it right there. Yeah. I washed my hand off, flushed it.

What kind of razor? Just a little razor with a toothbrush. You know what I mean? Just a quick little... I just had to get rid of them. So you just said basically you're just marking him. Just whatever. He's gone.

Now he's gone. He's out there. Right. You know what I mean? I did my job. And then you're not... You got away with it. Yeah.

I went home and... And no cameras picking you up on... There's no cameras that there at that time. Wow. You know, now they got him everywhere. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. But so then, uh, then one of my homeboys comes from another yard.

You know what I mean? He's like, dude, you got to go to the shoot. You got to get out of here. You're a lifer. Like, you got to, you got to, you know. But this time, all this stuff's going on. I'm seeing, like, whatever. But now I have to stab somebody in front of the cops.

They want me to get the guy that was running the building before. And allowing those child molesters. In front of the cops. Right. Which would be a violent strike. Yeah. Which would be done. I wouldn't be out right now.

Right. I'd have to, I would, because my board day wasn't until 2013. I wouldn't even supposed to go to board until 2013. Right. Right. You know, and I'm thinking in the back of my head, you know, and all this stuff's going on. Right. I might be in trouble.

I might not. I've been on the yard. You know what I'm saying? Because of what's going on there. Are they getting me back there to kill me? Or whatever, everything's going to be good. I'm not taking that chance. Yeah.

Are you, no, you're a lifer. So why do you have to take an order from the shoe, from the shot collars? It's just the way it is. Like, it's just the way it is. Do you know what I mean? This guy came from Seyard. But he was essentially what he was saying was like, dude, you got to go do a shoe term. Right.

you know, your life, you got to go. Like, does that mean I'm just going to go to my tournament? I'm cool. I'm going to go back there and they're going to kill me. You know what I mean? Because that's what they do. Sometimes they'll, so, hey, you know, you got to do this. And then they'll go back there and they'll kill you.

Right. So they're luring you back to the shoe so they can kill you there. They want to talk to you or whatever the case may be. And the only way they could kill you when they're in the shoe is when you're in the dog kennel with your cell. No, no, that's not true at all. Oh, do they let you out together in the shoe? Like, Corcoran shoe, you have a cellie. Yeah.

Pelican Bay, they switch to whatever. Everything's different. But at Salinas. Like your celly will make a rope out of, out of the sheets. Yeah. You know, have you heard of that one?

No. Where they braid the rope. They make a sheet. They cut strips. They braid it, make it a rope. Right. Use it for a bag or whatever.

Right. Or use it to kill your sally. Yeah. Spit it around his neck and, you know, kill them. But is there any, like when you're in the shoe at Salinas Valley, are there, do you have? Salinas Valley doesn't have a shoe. It's just an ad stage. Oh, I see.

The only shoes in the state of California are corporate. and Pelican Bay. I got you. And I think Tehachapi, pretty sure Tehachby has one too. Okay. So, and there,

do you have contact with other, like, can you have physical contact with other inmates or just your sally? Well, you're just your sally, but, you know, there's kites,

you know, you fish with everybody or whatever. Yeah. You know, you see them in the dog cages, but yeah, you're just with your cellies. So,

so what are you, now you're in a sticky situation because you don't want to stab somebody in front of the guards. So how did you, how did you, how did you do that? How did you handle that?

Like, what are you supposed to do in this position? I dropped out. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was like, I was just thinking about everything. And I'm just like, this is stupid, dude. Yeah. You know, they got the white boys selling the tables for dope for the yard.

You got all this stuff happening. It's just nonsense, dude. Yeah. It just became nonsense. I was older. I just didn't, you know. What year was that? 2004, maybe.

Oh, so you dropped out early. This is like only a couple years into your. stretch. Yeah. So when you're a dropout, what does that mean and where do you have to go? Do they have to send you isolate you? Send you to... No, they just send you to one of those S and Yards. Okay. Which are crazier than the main

line. No way. Because now you've got no rules. There's nobody running nothing. Oh, right. So you're on a yard with a bunch of sex offenders and gang dropouts. And the problem is this. The problem is that you don't have nobody running nothing. So usually you're just worrying about the white boys, maybe every once in a while you've got a black or whatever.

Yeah. But now it's like free, it's like why a right you what the youth authority is it's just yeah right right you can stab anybody do anything you want you want to kill your celly you don't have to ask you do whatever you want so there's no structure wow so you found that even worse in some ways it was worse what it what happened on that yard you know uh just people are getting stabbed all the time or some dude just doesn't want to be on the yard no more so he's just stabbing a dude to go wow you know it just you don't know what's going on Yeah, and now that you have so many people that are dropping out, it's like the SNY yards become like the mainline yards because they've got all these dropouts. They just ended it.

They just ended it a couple months ago. Is that right? They're putting everybody back together because it just failed. Wow. But now you're going to have a bunch of sex offenders getting stabbed. Now everybody. So now it's just going to be a big war. So you got 75% of the population became SMY.

Right. You know what I mean? All these dudes that were on the. level four yards that dropped out or whatever because it just, you know, whatever happened. Yeah. You know, like the level ones, the twos and the threes, they were never really like, they never really had to really, really go through it to the point where they're like, I'm cool. Right.

You know what I mean? This is stupid. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Now, though, they're just going to throw everybody back in together. So now for the next. Now it's just, it's going to be a war.

It's just going to be right back where they started. It's just going to be, it's going to be like the 70s again. I don't know what they're going to do. I'm not in there. I don't really care. anymore. But I know that it's just, it's just going to be just, it's just going to be a war. So you're about to see more violence in California prisons. It's, yeah. Wow.

You know, these dudes, these level four guys that are SMY still that had 500 points or whatever, I know a bunch of them that still have 500 points. They're going to put them back on these yards. Yeah. And they're trying to go home or whatever. And it's just going to be, you know, it's going to be a mess. How long were you on these yards for? The level four, SMY yards.

another what seven years wow that's a long time and where were you were you was that all at salinas or did you get shipped out lenest kern valley um high desert again yeah you know what was what was the difference between kern valley and uh i know that's a tough place i always read about people getting stabbed at kern valley and high desert what what was the worst and the best prison Which one did you like the most? The best cousin I ever liked was High Desert. Uh-huh. Yeah, it was... Why?

Because I had it made there. So the cops are white. Right. It was different. So when the cops are white in those really remote areas, they're friendlier to the white inmates, right? All the prisoners I were at were like, you know, in the Central Valley with, you know, there were a lot of Mexican cops or just whatever, black cops. But, you know, they called, you know, High Desert at the White House. Right.

Because it's all white cops. Right. It changed. It started changing those soon as they got there because the feds came in and the cops got a bunch of trouble. Right. There was a big old investigation or whatever. But there was still that, you know, all the older cops. Right.

But they were just cool. So those are the cops that will bring in stuff maybe. I'm not going to say all that. But you know what I mean? Well, come on. Everybody's got cell phones in there. You're not keystering in a big iPhone. The cell phones, the cops, there's free staffs bring those in too, you know, just regular free staff.

Very rarely. I mean, cops do it too. When did you see like the most, when did you see the cell phones really starting to come into play in prison? What year? Well, as soon as they started becoming cheap. Yeah.

You know, and as soon as they started becoming cheap, but then they started putting up the, the blockers on the building, you know, like behind each building they had a cell phone blocker. Oh, so they wouldn't work.

But the problem is, is that it only worked with certain phones. Because if you got 5G, like, okay, so here's how it works. You got the blockers up around the prison. Yeah.

Okay, the older cell phones to get, signals they go out this way. Right. And they get blocked. Right. But then the 5G goes up or the 4G or whatever how it works. You know what I mean? I don't know the exact nature of it, but you know, it didn't matter. Wow. When did you see 5G? I don't think I've seen the 5G. I think the 5G came out just when I got out, you know? Did you have a phone in prison? I've had to use them, but I tried to stay away from them for the most part because at this time when they were becoming abundant. Yeah. I know. I know. I might go to board and it's like a 10-year denial. Right. If you get found with a cell phone. Because that goes on your paperwork. Oh, yeah. They're like, because they're only used for one thing. That's the way. It's like, it's like having a ghost gun.

Yeah. A ghost gun is used for what? So it can't be tracked. You just kill people. I mean, right, right. Phones are used for what in prison to run criminal activities? Right, right. Sell drugs. I mean, sure, some people just get on, just talk on their, to talk to their family. But for the most part is for criminal activity. Right.

People are duration, whatever. People are directing things on the street. Yeah. And then you still got, you know, and then you got, you know, more gangs on the S&Y yards now than on the main line, really. You know, you got the GBGs. You got the GBGs. Who are the GBGs? The gay boy gangsters.

Oh, tell us about them. I wouldn't want to mess with the gay boy gangsters, bro. I learned a long time ago not to mess with a gay dude. You know what I mean? No, because they got the, in prison, they have the violence of a man, but the scorn of a woman. Yeah. That's what a gay gangster, you know. I didn't say that.

When I first got to Corcoran, this was a couple of years down the road, there was this gay dude. You know, this is before, because they got ran off the line a little bit later. They got kicked off the yards because they were causing too much problems or whatever. Drama queens. But this one dude was, you know, this older guy, he's been around a long time, tough guy, you know, slapped this gay dude on the butt playing handball. Hey, good game. The gay dude took off on him and beat the shit out of them.

Wow. And that dude never lived it down. Yeah, right. I've seen that. I'm like, excuse me, how you doing, having a good day?

I'm just staying away. No, there's no winning with a gay guy. You either beat up a gay guy or you got beat up by a gay guy. Yeah, like,

and they were slicing dudes, stabbing dudes and, you know, wow. But, you know, and then you got, you know,

the other white gangs and then the Mexican gangs, you know. Yeah. That all started up on the S&Y side. Wow. Finally ended it.

Yeah. This ain't working. That's really crazy. So it's really just going back to how it started. Everybody in one big starting of shit. They're starting over.

Starting over. It's going to be like the 1960s and 70s again. Starting over. Now they just say, oh, this ain't working. It's, you know, now it's just going to be a big old mess because you have more than half the system that you did that. Did you have to stab anyone in this second stretch? No. Okay. No, I just, what, I cut a dude. That was about it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. Did you have any kind of being a lifer? Did you have any,

you know, lifers usually have different levels of respect, right? Like, did you hang out with other lifers? Was that your click? Well, you know, you just hang out, usually hang out with who you get along with. Yeah, sure. You know what I mean? Sure. You know, you're compatible with, you know, like, you know, I met a lot of friends

later on down the road that, you know, we're Mexican or whatever, you know. But did you feel bitter? Like, like, the reason that I tried to never talk to lifers, except for my Selly, who was a lifer and just a really good dude. and he had made his peace with never getting out. But I tried to avoid lifers because, A, I thought they were dangerous. But B, it's like I'm thinking putting myself in those shoes. It's like, I don't want to talk to anybody that's going home.

Like, that's going to make me like angry and hateful and bitter and maybe violent. Like, did you feel that way when you were around guys like whistling through prison? Like, hey, I'm doing three years. I'm a tourist. My cellie was a lifer. On my first, you know, my last celly I had for a couple of years, he was a lifer. He was stuck out, you know. You don't talk about it getting out around them a lot.

You know what I mean? You kind of be. But did you feel bit, did you, when you were around guys with short time, thinking you were still doing the rest of your life in prison? Did you feel angry? Did you feel bitter? Or did you make peace with it? I would just be more like thinking like, I would see guys come back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. three or four times and they can do like in my mind i'm like dude like really but you know

people are gonna do you know they're gonna have to learn their own way but did you look did you feel bitter at people going home not really i did but i didn't i mean i can't say that i felt bitter i mean i didn't want to you know but uh sometimes i would get mad at dudes seeing them come back and forth. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, they're ruining it, you know, for, you know, I didn't really feel bitter. Did you forgive yourself for, for what you did to end up there?

I think that, you know, some of the stuff that I did, you know, it's just, it is what it is, bro. Like, I do feel bad, bro. I create a lot of victims, bro. I hurt a lot of people, you know, and you're never going to be able to forget about that, you know, the more that I learned about myself, the more that I, you know, understood about, you know, victims impact, how, you know, like I'll give you an example. When I shot those guys, you know, I hurt their families.

The first responders had to come and deal with it. Right. The bullets are going to other people's houses. You know what I mean? You start learning about all this. You're not only hurting these people, you're hurt in the community. You're hurting everybody, financially, emotionally. You know, you're wrecking.

families. Yeah. What about your own family? Yeah, of course. You know, my mom, she was devastated. Yeah. You know, my other part of the family, I don't know if they really care, but... Your dad's side? No, my dad's side, they were, you know, they were on drugs, too, you know. Yeah. But I'm just talking about other parts of my family. I mean, I didn't hear from most of them for 20 years. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, they just, you know, I know, though, it really hurt my mom. Yeah. What about your daughter? Of course, you know, so when I was at Kern Valley, my daughter's mom got killed, you know. Oh, no, I don't know.

Tell us about this. In Lake Havasu, she got killed. So what happened was she had a boyfriend and shot her in the face with birdshot trying to leave to take my daughter to school, you know, and didn't kill her, but it blinded her. Like, you know, wrecked her face, you know. He shot her on purpose? Yeah, through the car windshield, you know, some big, you know. domestic violence You know

Whatever Some just Some messed up dude You know Yeah You got some dudes That will hurt women like that She didn't die from that

But they put her on opiates And she ended up dying From the opiates Oh no But yeah You know Man So my daughter

Would end up going to live With her grandparents Right You know Yeah And you know She turned out great Luckily

She came to visit you Every now No I'd never seen her Wow I wrote her Though Every week Though I wrote her

every week. I got to talk to her now and then, but, you know, no. Yeah. So for 20 years, you didn't see your own daughter? No. For my mom. Wow. And did you tell them, like, no visits? I don't want. It just, you know, it's just, it's hard for, you know, families to bring people up to visit. Yeah. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. You know, it's stressful. You got to go get a room. You got to drive, you know, God knows where to visit somebody. Yeah. You have to drive 10 hours. Families do it. Yeah. A lot, but, you know, mine, no. Yeah. Oh, man.

Yeah. So that's, uh, did you, was there ever a point where you lost hope? You said, yeah, I'm not getting out of here. Or did you maintain that, that spark? When I first got my life sentence, it was over. But, you know, uh, you just adapt to it. You have to, you know, and then you get to prison and you work out. You get your packages and you just go through the days.

Right. Try to be happy, you know, you, you know, you end up just getting used to it. And what, and you said you, you got off opioids. Well, okay, yeah, tell us about that. You were going through, you had knee problems. I found this fascinating. They started during the opioid epidemic of the mid-2000s. It was in prison too.

There was a prison opioid epidemic. Tell us about that. They were just anybody who had pain, you know. They were putting you on morphine, chamadols, neurotans, whatever. Just without even. Blankin. Yeah. I got pain. I can't deal with it. You know, here. You know. And so you were hooked on opioids.

Yeah. You had knee pain. And so they started prescribing you. And it wasn't really that bad. I was just working the system like everybody else. Yeah. Just being a drug addict. Getting free pills. Yeah. Started selling them at first and start using them. And then they said, you know, I'm strung out of them. Wow. Yeah. Brutal. How long did that last? Probably five years? That's a long time. Yeah. That's a long time. I was on nothing done for three years. Is that from coming down?

off of the first pills they gave you? Well, or you do become hooked on methadone? They give methadone for pain. Wow. So you're, you're just a methadone addict. Yeah,

but now, yeah, I love that stuff. That stuff was great. Right. But, God, it's just terrible to come off of.

Now that I'm totally clean, I just feel great, though. You know, like you just, it takes a long time, though, to come off of methadone.

Right. It takes a really long time before you're like not moving around. Yeah. You're not, you know what I mean? It took a really long time. Did people OD?

Yeah. A couple people OD. Yeah. That's crazy. The thing is there wasn't fentanyl in it. So it wasn't, you know. Right. And they weren't getting a lot of it, but some dudes would.

Yeah. Yeah. Because they had the patches, the fentanyl patches in there. No shit. Like they would put them on your skin. Right. Like the guys that were really in pain, they'd give them the patches. Right.

And what would happen? You cut it open. It's like a gel. And you could cut it in squares. Yeah. You know what I mean? You sell a square for a hundred bucks or whatever. I did it one.

time. Fuck. I did it one time. Like me and my celli, like, I knew this dude that was in a wheelchair. And I'm like, I want to try it, you know. I'm on tremidols at the time or whatever. Yeah. But like, I want to try this, you know?

And I did it before I went to school. I was in a vocation behind the wall. And I get back there, I'm just like, I'm just like, I thought I was going to OD. Like, I started throwing up. I told the teacher, like, I got to go on and feel good. You know, went home and just passed out. Holy shit. Fet and all patches are now a thing.

But it's more. Wow. Yeah. But it was like, it's not like the. powder. Yeah, no, I know. Now it's just like coming from China. It's just a straight poison.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That some people say. But yeah. I did it one time. And then you got out, you got off of that and then there was meth involved in this stretch, right? Well, yeah.

Aren't you on a level, level two? They took me off the methadone. And it was just like I was just felt terrible. Dying. So I was doing whatever I could. Mm-hmm. Because if I did meth, it would stop. Yeah.

It would stop the withdrawal or whatever. Right. Or you just wouldn't fill it or whatever. Yeah. And then I started selling that. So it was so much of it there. I was walking around with like, I don't know, I had like an ounce inside me all the time. Like up, you know what I mean?

I got an ounce keister all the time. I'd walk around with it like that. You walk around with an ounce of meth in your ass? Yeah. It was crazy. Holy shit. I remember because I was pretty healthy. Like, you know, even though I was on the opiates, I was working out.

I was eating good or whatever. But I remember I walked around the corner one day. And my buddy's like, dude, he's my homeboy. He's like, you just came off the streets, you know? I was so sucked up. Right. Holy shit. And I tried to get this job.

It was just when I finished the electrical vocation, they had this work crew that was building a new medical facilities behind all the yards. And they needed electricians. Yeah. And I tried to get the, I tried to get, you know, with the job there. Yeah. And I knew a CEO from old Corcoran. And he was like, cool.

It's me. Like, I'd be coming through the work change with, you know, Kansas to, back on my foot and I get inside my boot just right inside the boot where you take it off yeah but i always knew he was there and he was always cool with me like because i knew him from years ago yeah i mean and he would just let me go through oh go go ahead Curtis like whatever yeah and i go hey i need you to get me a job over here and he's like i tried to get you a job but they said uh that you're the biggest meal in the yard like you know what i mean he goes i told him like this well if he's getting away with it good for him you know yeah but he would let me just walk towards you

Whatever. Yeah. And then it just went all bad. People owe money. Right. You know, you start whatever. All this stuff starts happening, you know. Who are you?

Who is your connect? Who are you getting? From the Northerners. Right. So they were the ones really getting the weight in. A lot of them were. Well, then we had this other guy that was white that we were doing it like through the, you know, I told you the watch office. And not the watch office, but, you know, administration that's out of the prison.

Right. Like we had the guy working out there. Yeah. Or tobacco was a big thing. Yeah. Like a lid of tobacco It's like if you take a folder's jar off Like the top of a folder's jar

You packed that with tobacco That's a hundred bucks Right And then you could sell those sticks for fucking Fucking seven bucks ten bucks Like four or five bucks But still you'd be make a killing off of it Yeah

But I was just I was gone dude I was on the streets again Wow And then uh So you could be as you were as high in prison As you could be on the streets At that time when the level two God it was crazy bro

Like I was like every day like I'd wake up in the morning and take it out of me and fucking go in the bathroom. You gotta hide because you got, now I'm in a pod for the first time of my life. Right, you're sharing space with people. So you got dudes in there that will tell on you.

Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Or also don't want it around or whatever. Yeah. You got to be gone to the bathroom and do a shot and take off to school. How do you do meth there in prison? I had an outfit. Wow. So you had a rig?

Yeah. I had my own. Damn. So you were just using that to shoot real quick. I'd shoot it up real quick and wrap it up real good again. Fucking out the door, you know? Wow. Yeah, that's crazy.

Like go in the bathroom and have somebody watch pulled out and do it there too, you know. Oh, dude, I can't believe that. You're a full on junkie in a place that's supposed to like have security. Yeah. It's just chaos, dude. It was crazy, bro. Wow. Did you ever have any problems over like the money that people owed you?

Yeah. Yeah. That's essentially what ended up happening, you know. Some people owed money. They weren't paying and then I was like pressure in them. And then they knew I had a knife. and then I was gone. They dropped kites.

They dropped kites like 8-12s. Is that like a snitch kite? Yeah. And then I took off on this one dude because he told on me. Yeah. So he had my house hit. And I took off on him, got in a fight with him. Then when I went to the program office,

then that's when people that, you know, the people that owe you money, they're like informants or whatever. Yeah. Confidential informants, they start, oh, this guy, this. So if you get three people to say that, you know, you owe you money or whatever. For meth. Yeah, whatever. They got to get you out of the prison. Right. So I went to the hole and then that's when I was just like, and then I woke up,

it was my daughter's birthday and I was like, fuck. I just don't want to do this no more. I'm done. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. You ran out of wind. I just didn't, I just, you know, I just, and I was never getting out in my mind. I was still never getting out, but I just didn't want to die in prison being a scumbag. Right. Being a drug addict. And I, you know, I started reading the Bible.

lot and you know god saved me man that was what 2015 yeah uh what year did you what year did that law change or that uh what year did basically you have hope now from the change of the law that okay i could get out of here 2017 i think they passed that law which is pro 57 okay tell us about pro 57 so essentially for three strikers yeah i mean there's a bunch of laws in there that changed but essentially for the three strikers is what it says if you got 15 years or more in and you can go to the board you can get out no matter how much time you got really yeah it did it did it it matter if your third strike was violence or not if you're by then no okay but for nonviolent nonviolent third striker yeah so not even though my controlling case yeah the three strikes i shot two

people which is violent right now is nonviolent right so you know they start talking about isn't the back of my mind, I'm still thinking, there's no way I'm going to make it through bored. Like, just impossible, you know? Right. But a couple of years go by and then I get the slip. Just like during COVID. So, so you, first of all, the prisons must have been just, you know how gossip is in prison, right? Just anything like, hey, they're going to give a 15% more time cut, whatever it is, right? So when this thing came down, everybody must have been talking like, hey, I got a chance. Now, there's a lot of people started you're leaving like not the non-lifers yeah hey you're out of here you're out of here

it took six months off of this sentence a year off of this sentence so people were just getting wrapped up yeah people were just yeah getting out and then you know for me you know I still didn't really believe it until I got you know during COVID this is like when COVID we're all locked down now right so COVID there it was like we were stuck in the cell by the way how was COVID how was that like in prison they just uh for a lot of people dying No, not really Like two people on the yard Okay

You know On our yard anyways A couple people probably died But out of a lot of 900 people Yeah But they stuck us in ourselves And we didn't go to one Right

You know And had you gone and seen the board yet At this point? No, no, no Okay But I got the slip of paper So what happens When you're gonna go to the board

Six months before you go Or wait a minute I think a year Almost a year before you go They give you a slip Right Say hey you're going to board At this date

Fill out your packet Get your packet. Just whatever. Right. Prepare or don't prepare. It's up to you. Right. What it comes down to.

And at this point, tell us what you had been doing, like, to change. You know, obviously you're... Oh, I went through a ton of groups, man. Yeah. You know, CGA, houses a healing. Had you gotten your electrician? Yeah, I got that one I was at, when I was doing meth and I was... Oh, right, right.

At the end, I started using it, but I already been through school like a year and a half. Yeah. I had five months left when it really started getting bad. But you had a trade is the point. So you could tell the board, hey, look, I can get a job when I get out. I got another trade at Kern Valley. Okay. But just nothing.

It's just, uh, it's called a vocation or whatever. But back then they were all junk, office services, computers. And then I did another one, janitorial. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's nothing, though. But all that changed a little bit later when they made everything like on a database, you know. But I had a good trade.

Yeah. I had a good trade. And actually when I got to high desert, they gave me a good job. I mean, I was on C status for a while because it came out of the hole. But then the council was like, hey, you got this electrical vacation.

We're going to put you in maintenance when you get off because we need people that know how to do this stuff. But anyway, so that went on. But yeah, so COVID, we were just locked down. Yeah. You know, for months.

You know, like out here, you guys, you know, we're locked down pretty much. So we had the same thing. You know, we had to wear masks. and all that stuff. But then you get the slip about a year before, and then six months before you want to turn your packet in. Right.

At least, or no less than 90 days before you go, you want to turn your whole packet in. Right. Because the psych evaluation, you want to have your packet in before they do a psych evaluation so they can come and talk to you because a site comes in from the state and evaluates you. Right. And, you know, it gives you a high risk, low risk, or median risk.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Usually everybody gets a medium. Right. Or a high if you're just not done anything. I got a medium risk. Uh-huh. And I just made a bunch of flashcards, man.

I made a really good packet. Yeah. Explaining everything. Every that's prevention program. Yeah. You know, relapse this for gangs, for drugs. Mm-hmm. I wrote essays on why I shot the people, you know, just everything.

Yeah. And now you'd add, what, five years sober? Five years clean. Yeah. Five years sober and five years. Five years. No 115's. Oh, right.

So no write-ups. I did have a 128, though. I got lucky on that. This was like a year and a half before I went to board. Because I did smoke still. Yeah, I spent cigarettes. Like here and there, I would smoke. Right.

One time I went, there was a dude in the tower. We called him floaters. Some young kid, he's floater. It's not a regular. And after a child, I went by due cell and picked up a cigarette. He threw it under the door and I went home. Yeah. And he pulled myself and I'm writing you up.

I'm like, well, I'm thinking to myself. What do you mean? You know? Wait, so a guard gave you a cigarette and then wrote you a cigarette? Well, it went to another inmate cell. Oh, I see. And he's like, what was that? I said coffee.

But if he would have had me searched, it would have been tobacco. And I got out. Right. So they asked me about that when I went to board, too. Like, you know, I was just picking up coffee. And it's funny because the commissioner goes, I wish the cop would have searched you. I wonder if that really was coffee, you know, in the back of my mind. I just admitted it.

I told him, look, because it's all how you talk to the board. Yeah. They want you to just admit to everything. To be contrite. Yeah. They want you to be honest and to everything. Yeah. So did you tell them about the Matthews?

Did you tell them about the... Yeah. Well, because there was... So they asked me about that. After, you know, I told them my life story on how I changed who I was then, who I am now. They asked me, well, we got these 8-12s here. What's this all about? Says here you were pressured people and selling drugs.

I go, I was. Yeah. I was selling drugs to support my habit. I, you know, was back in my criminality. Yeah. They're like, okay, thank you. And then moved on. Right.

You know? and when they came back from the you know they take a little recess to determine what they're going to do. How long does that the interview last? It was about an hour. Were you nervous? Yeah, of course, of course.

You know? And then he came back from the thing and he goes, you know what, Mr. Curtis? He goes, we get people coming in here, you know, 99% of the time and we got these A-12s and they say, oh, yeah, somebody's just making that stuff up or whatever, but you admit it to it.

You know, and it's not awful. often people do that. Yeah. And, you know, with everything that was said here today, we're finding you suitable. I was like, what the fuck? I couldn't believe it, dude. But that was the longest, you know, four months of my life after that, you know? Wow.

So after they, I mean, so your life has just changed that quickly. Yeah. So do you keep it in? Do you run around hooping and hollering? Do you tell anybody? Do you, do you got to, you got to, you got to worry about somebody dropping a kite on you. were really hating on you. Really hate, yeah, now you got to really watch your back.

You got to walk on age sales. You get a 115 and it's over, you know? Right. What's a 115? Like a fight? Any kind of violation. Yeah, yeah. You know, you get a 115 if you stab somebody.

Yeah. You got Division A, Division B, C. You know, it goes on and on and on. I would have gone straight to the hole. Well, you can't. Yeah. They won't just send you to the hole. That's being a write-up.

They can't just send you the whole about. No, they can't. And plus, that's how would they, they would, the board would have something to say about that. Yeah. you know, oh, you're saying you can't function or with stress or, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. At this point, they're finding you suitable that you're not a threat to society.

Right, right. Their thing is continue programming like you are. Right. The governor's got to sign this. They tell you, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. Did they give you a time frame, like an average time frame? Okay. About four months for all the process.

Right. Wow. The longest four months. Yeah. It was crazy, bro. Holy shit. I mean, I'm still like smoking and, you know what I mean? Yeah.

there or whatever. I'm still whatever. Are you prepared mentally to like get rejected? Are you prepared just to just because I would be crushed if I was like this is crazy right? Because my cellie, he was a youth offender. And the paper comes in the mail because they took his date. He had a board date but they took it. What does that mean? Took it. They took the date because the family of the victim's family was suing the state over the youth offender law and state of California because of him. Like the family and the DA got together and they're like literally trying to change the whole law. Right.

So this paper comes in the mail like two months later after I get found suitable and I read it and it says your date's been whatever. I didn't read the name. Oh. I was like, fuck. And my heart just sunk. And I'm like, no way. I'm pacing back because I pace myself all the time like but nobody's there.

And then I read it again and it had his name on it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so you almost had a heart attack. Dude, I was like, what the, you know? So was he doing life? Your Sally?

Life without. Okay, so he killed a guy. Yeah, him and his best friend. Oh, and then. Their friend. Oh. Beat him with a bat and all that. Yeah.

Like, you know, he was like 16 when he did this. Oh, and so they changed, they're actually changed that law because of his family. No, no. They tried to. The victim's family tried to sue the state of Caliphers for change from the defender law. Right. Trying to get the whole thing thrown out for everybody.

They didn't want him getting out. They just can't get over the fact. You know, like, they don't believe in change. Yeah. But if anybody should be out, as far as I concerned, it should be named. Because he was such a square. Like, I would have to, like, you know, he was just like, not a, I mean, he used to be crazy kid. Yeah.

But now he changed his life, but he's, like, really straight and narrow. Yeah. More than anybody, I know. How much time had he done? 25 years at this time? Yeah. Yeah. And when you're 16, you're not even a human. Like, you're an amoeba, you know?

but, and so he's still in there, awaiting. Yeah, he should be, he's just finishing up the program to be a drug counselor. Yeah. You know, he's, yeah, he's doing good. Yeah. He lets the shit just slide right off him, you know. They, they, he was going to board and he gets a thing in the mail saying, hey, your board's been taken away because the family, the victim's suing. Yeah.

They didn't stop anybody else's. Yeah. But they stopped his because of that, you know. Right, right. And the court rejected it and got his date back. And then he went and got denied. Yeah. He helped me.

Like, he was sitting in a cell with me. We would do board prep. Yeah. You know, he helped me to where I got out, but he got denied. Because he minimized something. Because they asked them, you know, they asked them a question. This is how the board is. Oh, so were you in a gang?

Were you selling drugs for a gang? He's like, no, I wasn't in no gang. I was selling, he's old, but you were running drugs back and forth for on the yard, right? He's like, yeah, well, they use all that. You know, he's minimizing the situation. Yeah, you were running with the game. You don't let me. If they got to drag it out of you, that's what they don't like.

The thing is, is that, you know, it's, it's insight is, uh, and minimizing is really, you know, you got to really know what, you got to be careful what you say. Yeah. Like, you, like, I, I can't believe that I was able to make it through that. Yeah. Like, it's, it's tough, dude. And, uh, a lot of these guys, and they're still getting tonight. Yeah. A lot of my friends are still, they've been to board four or five times.

Right. You know, and I don't know. I just am amazed that I was able to pull it off on the first one. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's just the mindset in prison for a lot of people that have done life or doing life or life on the installment plan. Yeah, they just have a hard time taking full responsibility. It's not even, it's not that. It's just some of them aren't really good at articulating.

Articulating stuff. You know, like, it's sad, actually. But I remember one of my buddies telling me When they did say I was going to board I had all this big old packet He's like, you don't need all that stuff Do we're not buying three strikers They're just going to let us out

I'm like, no they're not We're career criminals Yeah Yeah You know we didn't get struck out for just one thing We're career criminals Like as a murderer They murder somebody

They go to prison They're there They got one case Yeah Or you may be some little stuff before that But they've been in prison a long time We've been back and forth Yeah

We're considered career criminals Right three strikers. I'm not getting, I'm getting out of here. I'm going to do everything I can. I'm still in my back of my mind. I think I'm going to be denied.

Yeah. But I'm going to do everything I can not to. Right. You know what I mean? And it paid off. So you get that, do you remember the day, the moment they knocked on your cell, told you to roll up?

They told me the day before. Okay. Hey, you're out of here tomorrow. So, yeah, I was. I wish I could bottle that feeling. That, that, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be doing life. we've had some guys on the show before that have gotten that call

or that knock on the cell, hey, you're rolling up. Don't you wish you could capture that and just relive that moment? Like when you're having a bad day, just on the streets, you know, in society. Picture, feel what it's like to be getting out of prison. And then everything else is put in perspective. Yeah.

You know? Like your worst day on the street is better than your best day in prison. Well, I tell, like, I work with a lot of people and they kind of get like, you know, oh, this and that. I'm like, hey, your life could be a lot worse. Yeah.

I tell them all the time. Dude, your life could be a lot worse. Yeah. A lot of ungrateful people out here. Oh, of course. I'm one of them. I've forgotten all the lessons from prison. And now I'm just, you know, solely focused on myself and worried about my champagne problems,

is what I call them. Yeah. But so, are you still on parole? No, I got off a couple months ago. Oh, wow. Congratulations. So you've been out for three and a half, four years? Two years.

So you didn't get home until. 2022? Yeah. Holy shit. January 22? That's fucking wild. What was the craziest thing you had to get used to after 20 years? Like what struck you the most about society? The phones? Yeah. Like you're learning how to use these phones. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know. I'm not really like people will say that I'm not really institutionalized, you know? Like a lot of people. And I think that I just able to adapt well to any surrounding, you know? Yeah. For the most part. I mean, I still go into places and I got to look at everything.

Yeah. Like, what's this? You know, like, I don't like walking down the street at night. To me, I don't like doing that. You know, I just think it, you know, I just, just whatever, you know, there's still things in my mind that are still the same. But, you know, when I go somewhere, I look around who's there, what's going on? You know what I'm saying? I look at every situation.

I try, you know. Yeah. When did you write the book? The reason you're here today. 2011 and 2000, between 2011 and 2013. Oh, wow. So you wrote it in like the law library or where do you? I wrote it myself.

Okay. So you wrote it by hand. Yeah, with a pencil, piece of paper and like a little typewriter. Click. Wow. Oh, wow. So, oh, that you get typewriters in yourself. Yeah, you get typewriters.

It's not good ones. It's not with memories or nothing. Right, right. I mean, they did have some older ones. Yeah. You know, that's been around a long time, but they stopped all that. Yeah. Yeah, it took a long time because I had to rewrite a lot of stuff.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So then you got out. When did you publish it? When I got out. Okay. It's been out for about a year or so.

Great. Where can they get it? Tell it, this is where we plug. Tell it, where can they get the book. You can get on Amazon. Orange County, the dark side. You can get on Amazon. It's at Barnes & Noble's and some other places, too.

But I just let everybody know that it's on Amazon. Yeah. Um, my, uh, Instagram page is, uh, Orange County, the dark side, 8083. O-C the dark side, age 083. Okay. And my TikTok page is the same. Hell yeah. You can get on there and click a link and buy it.

Yeah. You know. Yeah. Perfect. Um, yeah, dude, it's just essentially a story about just a biography about the streets and yeah. What I went through. Wow.

What an epic, man. Well, congratulations. What are your plans for the future? You're an electrician now, you're doing your trade. Getting married. Yeah. Just enjoy my life, man. You know, I'm grateful to be free, you know, a second chance, you know.

And I'm not going to take it for granted. Yeah. You know, I'm very happy with my life today. I never thought I could have a life like this. Yeah. You know, I remember dreaming in prison of being out, being in love and just, you know, having, you know, everything that I have. now. I never thought it was possible. It was like a dream. Yeah. And now I have, I'm very happy with my

life. Amazing, man. Well, congrats, brother. I can't wait to read the book. Everybody run out and get Orange County the dark side. Christopher Curtis. Chris, thank you so much, man. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate it, dude. I enjoyed it. Yeah, I'm sweating. That was an epic. You know what I mean? Okay, guys, take care. Okay. Bye-bye.