The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Gambino Mafia Soldier Confesses To Life Of Crime, Relationship W Gotti, Becoming Government Witness

Episode Date: January 20, 2024

Anthony Ruggiano was quite literally BORN into the mafia. His father was Fat Andy Runggiano, one of the most notorious capos for the Gambino Crime Family. It didn’t take long for Anthony to follow his father’s footsteps and start earning for the mob. He came up with John Gotti and the two became close friends and associates. Living a life of extortion, burglary, murder, and drug addiction took its toll on Anthony landing him in and out of prison. Then one he was picked up by the FBI in a RICO indictment that eventually led to him becoming a federal witness, landed him in witness protection, and eventually turned his life around. Today, he is sober, legitimate, and coming to terms with the regrets and guilt of his prior life. He’s here to talk all about it! Go Support Anthony! Website: https://www.anthonyruggiano.com/ YouTube: @AnthonyRuggiano IG: https://www.instagram.com/anthonyruggianojr/ This Episode Is Brought To You By The Following Sponsor: Go to PrizePicks.com/connect and use code connect for a first deposit match up to $100! Support the show and get 50% off of Factor at https://www.factormeals.com/CONNECT50 and use code CONNECT50 Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The sun's shining, the birds are chirping. I'm sitting on the bench. And all of a sudden I hear, don't move you, motherfucker. And I open up my eyes and there's a gun right in my nose. He looks down to me and he asks me, so, how long have you been an associate of the Gambino family? So I looked up in him and I said, since birth. What's up, guys? Today's guest is Anthony Ruggiano Jr.

You've probably seen him on the Get Gotti documentary out right now on Netflix. Anthony was born into the Gambino crime family. His father was a Gambino. soldier. He himself was an associate of the mob from a young age. He is from Brooklyn, New York. He was involved in hijackings, stolen merchandise, drug dealing, murders. He was close associates with John Gotti during the 1980s. He knew Sammy the Bull. He was around that whole clique. He went in and out of prison. In 2005, he was arrested on federal RICO and murder charges. He ended up cooperating, went into witness protection. Years later, he is out. He's a free man. He is crime free. He has a

tremendous podcast called Reform Gangsters. Go subscribe to it on YouTube and check out his documentary, Get Gotti, number one on Netflix. He is by far the most well-connected and mob-entrenched guests that we have had on the show. And for a bonus episode with some wild stuff, go over to patreon.com slash the Connect show. Without further ado, I give you an amazing episode with Anthony Ruggiano Jr. Right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. And we walked in and we walked in, Frankie walked in ahead of him. me and I heard the door locked behind me and Tony grabbed the answer to the wait I want to talk to you and I just kept on walking and when I walked I gave the nod to Dominic and Dominic took the pistol

out and went the back and shot. That's when I see the lights behind me start to flash and I didn't even think I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on and then I parked the car hopped out closed the door and I started running and he pulls out a burner shank it's like six inches and he passes it to me and he goes here that's yours don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I made it out of that place alive. Anthony, thank you so much for coming out here, man. You're welcome. My pleasure.

Go check out his channel on YouTube. Go watch Get Gotti on Netflix. It was tremendous. You were a star in it. We're going to talk about your story for the most of the episode. But just referencing that doc, I mean, I knew a lot about Gotti before, but that after watching it, you know, no disrespect to the dead. but I was like, this guy really just talked his way into a life sentence and effectively bringing down

the last real generation of wise guys. What is his legacy now? Now that we've seen him just unnecessarily talking on a wire about all these bodies that effectively took him down and all his cohorts, what is his legacy now with wise guys? Well, his legacy now in the street is that he roost the mob. He brought the mob down. I mean, he played a part in it. I mean, I could only tell you how I feel.

He played a part of it. But I mean, the Rico statue was the beginning of the end of the mob. As far as he goes, he played a major role in it. And he just thought, first of all, he thought he was above the law. He thought the public loved him. He really believed that the worst he could ever get was a hung jury. And he said that because he said the public loves me. And the apartment that he spoke in, I was in that apartment.

That apartment was on top of the Raven night. this fellow named Mike and his wife owned it. They must have lived there 100 years. Mike passed away, and I just believed that he thought it would be okay because first of all, they didn't even know he was up there until a confidential informant told him. And he probably thought who in the Raven Knight was a confidential informant. All of us were in the Ravenite.

Do we know who that confidential informant was? People speculate. I have no idea who it is. The name never was released. Nobody knows. I mean, he's talking about. bodies from the past that he already moved on from. They didn't have anything on him.

No, they had nothing. And, and, yeah, the tapes, and, you know, there was one section of the tape where he made a comment and they put it together with an old surveillance tape. And that's, and that started the whole baller. And they actually, you know, it was funny, too, about what get goty, what they brought out, which people, some people are missing. The FBI went to, the. the media to talk about the Castellano killing, and they started the Convist Tim talking.

If you saw Gacardi, you know there was a partner, Gagadi, where they called it, they nudged it, or they did something with one of the news stations to start talking about stuff. And then John picked up on, oh, did you hear, did you see the news the other night? They talked about Paul, and that started the ball wrong. Right. Oh, so they intentionally planted that in the news media because they knew his ego. they knew that was going to get him opening exactly and it worked

so because he you know we had sal police on the show before and he dealt a lot with John when John was younger like in the 70s and he said the way that John committed hits and made money he was a really smart dude when it came to crime but it sounds like he was just his ego

after winning the first two cases against him it was just out of control he was he was an emperor that had just gone without his clothes you know like they were egomaniacs I mean And he was, my father, too, was an egot maniac. I think people in that life that have these big personalities and that are well known and have a lot of power, their ego goes to the head.

I mean, like, literally, listen, I was with John, and I talked about this before. Tony Lee, my father's partner, who was a wise guy, had a lunch appointment with him in Brooklyn. So I drove him to the lunch appointment. I walk into this restaurant. It's crowded. He's sitting at a table with Joe Watts, who was a killer. He was German, but he was like, John loved him.

And they're sitting there. And he's looking around, John, and he says, look, the public loves me. They'll never, we start talking about trials because they'll never convict me. The worst I'll get is a hung jury. And before we left, a couple walked up to him and asked him for his autograph. And the guy signed his autograph. Now, here's a mob boss signing an autograph. You know, like Tony Lee is an old time.

He didn't say nothing at the table, of course, because John's the boss. But when we got in the car, like, he was not happy. Like, what is this guy kidding? How the fuck did he sign an autograph? You know, like, it was just unheard of. Right, because it's supposed to be a secret. Right. Cozanostra, our thing.

This is a secret society. And he's making it part of pop culture. Right. And yeah, you were saying, too, like, he was partying in Studio 54. Oh, yeah. Didn't Brooke Shields want his number? You know, he was out in regimes every night. I mean, I used to go to Club A with him, right?

and all the stars used to go to Club A. And one night, Brooke Shields walked up to him, said good night to him, and stuck her hand in his pocket. But I didn't know what was going on. When we walked out, he went in his pocket.

He took out the phone number. I said, what was that? He goes, she could put a number in my pocket. And he ripped it up. I said, what did you do? What did you rip it up for? He goes, she's my daughter's age. I said, you should have gave me the number.

What are you kidding me? He goes out of here. But, you know, but so we would go to pastels. So there was this other club in Brumbrose. Brooklyn that the Genevice family owned this captain with the Genevice family that was friends with John owned it and we would go to this it was called pastels and we would go there and when you walked in all the way in the back was the VIP room but you could see into the VIP room and all the girls and would be looking staring looking to see where he was sitting so one night

we were in there and there was a whole bunch of us me Tony Lee this guy Barbie to Jew but he wasn't Jewish he was Italian that was his nickname maybe because he was cheap I don't know I don't know, but I'm only kidding. You just, I don't know why. I tell you the truth, I really don't know why they gave. That's what they used to come, but there was a whole bunch of us. And, you know, I'm, I'm there and I'm walking out and I'm like grabbing girls. And I'm going, come on, you want to come to the table.

And they're all coming and I'm bringing girls over to the table. Finally, I sit down and I was actually sitting next to him at the time. And he linked over and he goes, there's enough girls at the table. Stop bringing them over here. I said, all right, no problem. So he really was. like kind of how political dictators it's so obvious to the outside world

that their regimes are about to fall but they become so intoxicated by their power and their underlings you your father whoever was working for him nobody spoke up nobody was like John you're gonna go down like you're gonna take us all down with you it's kind of sounds like that's how it all

unraveling no he he had he made it a rule. He made people report. Like he put it on, like his thing was, do you want to be in this life? You cannot hide in your house. You got to be out. You got to be out. Just because we're under surveillance, you're going to come out. You're going to be out. There's no hiding in the basements. There's no hiding in your house. Like he put it in their face. Like he made it a rule, like guys like Tommy Gambino, Carl Gambino's son. He made him come to the Raven Knight. He made captains come to the Ravenite to meet with him. He made them because he was a gangster and he wanted you in the street. He was a hoodlum. You ain't staying in your house. You're not a business man.

You're going to be out. You're going to come see me. I don't give a fuck if the, I take your picture. It doesn't matter. And that's how they got everybody's picture. Right. We, you know, even me. I mean, I, how like every time I got after he became the boss, I got, I got arrested a few times. So, so not in not right away. So he got, after he became the boss, and the first time I had gotten arrested after he became the boss was in 89. I got arrested in Jamaica, Queens,

and we had a number of office of policy ring, which is the lotto. People don't know what I'm talking about. They raided the office. They kicked the door in. There was a whole big thing. The front page of the Daily News, John Gotti, John Gotti.

He had nothing to do with it. Yeah. He had nothing to do with it at all. Yeah. And he's a ball buster now, John Gotti. So now I get out on bail and I go see him and he goes, hey, we made $14 million this year. Where's my, where's my end? I said, oh, you want to go to jail?

You want to break my balls? You know, because we hung around him and that's the price we paid. Yeah. And then I got the most time. I went to the worst prisons because I was fat Andy's son and we were affiliated with him. Yeah. That's how we suffered the consequences of his, you know. His orbit.

Exactly. So let's go back to the beginning. So what we're talking about is the Gambino's, most powerful of the five families in New York. At one time. Yes, at one time. East New York is where it really was birthed in New York City. Your father, you were born into this life. Your father was Fat Andy, started off small time robbing card games.

Card games. Car games, you know, illegal neighborhood card games back in the 50s right after the war. and he became a button man for, I'm sorry, who was his boss? Albert Anastasia. Okay, Albert Anastasia, the boss of the Gambino's at the time? Or he was a captain? The Gambino family at the time was the Mangano family. Okay.

Albert Anastasia was the boss before Carl Gambino. Okay. And actually, the guy that proposed my father, Charlie Wagons, Charlie Fadico, is the same wise guy that proposed John Gotti. They got made by the same guy. East New York. So Charlie was a made member of the Mangano family in East New York. And when my father was stealing robbing the poker games, he robbed one of Charlie's games.

Oh, shit. So there was this other guy named Albert Mayoni. He was Happy Mayoni's brother. Happy Meyone was a member of Murder Incorporated. He got the electric chair when he was, with Leapke and all of them guys in the Dasha. So he told Charlie asked him if he knew this kid Andy. and he said, yeah, he's Liberty's kid brother. Now, Liberty was my father's older brother,

my uncle Frank, but his nickname was Liberty. He goes, he's Liberty's brother. He says, you think you could get the money back from him. And Albert told Charlie, there's only two things you could do with this kid. Either you could kill him or give him a job. He ain't giving you back the money. It's probably gone. So Charlie told Albert to bring my father to him.

And that was the beginning of Charlie. And Albert brought my father to Charlie. Charlie liked him. He made my father start driving him around. And that was the beginning of my father getting introduced to that crime family. And he got straightened out. Yeah. Well, he got, she started hanging out with Charlie.

And then he told the story that he told me is one day he was in the bar with Charlie. And Charlie took him outside. And he was only a kid. He was only probably at that time, maybe 24 years old. And Charlie asked him, if we ask you to clip somebody, are you okay with that without asking any questions. And my father said, yeah. And then about two or three months later, that's when he did his first hit for that family. He's, you know, it's not funny, but he told me he was still living home with his mother. He was still living with my grandmother. He said, and Charlie picked

him up at my grandmother's house, and there was a guy in the car with Charlie. And he got in the back seat. And Charlie's brother, Danny, who was also a wise guy, was in a car behind him. And he said, they pulled out and they drove away from grandma's house. He goes, And then I whispered in the guy's ear. And I didn't know what he was talking about. I said, what do you mean you whispered in the guy's ear? He went, I whispered in his ear. And he was only a kid.

He was 24. And that was the beginning. Then he did a couple of other things. And the books were closed in 1953, but they made him a special case because of the work he did. They call it work. And they passed his name around. And a member of the Genevice family, Tony DeShik, put up a, put a beef in to stop my father from getting made because my father.

had robbed one of his poker games when he was a kid. So they had to sit down in Manhattan with Tony DeSheek, who was in the Genevice family at the time and a couple of other guys in Albert Anastasia who was the boss of that family, Charlie, was there and this guy Tommy Rava, who was the captain, Charlie's captain. And they had to sit down in Manhattan. My father had to sit at another table.

He told me because he wasn't actually a made member yet, but he could hear everything that they were saying. and Tony DeShique was going, this kid's an animal, he has no respect, and you're going to straighten him out, and he was putting up this beef with an out, and he said nobody was talking. And after he was done,

Albert Anastasia, who they called the High Executioner, if you know about Albert Anastasia, he leant in and he says to Tony DeShick, he goes, well, who do you want me to straighten out? Priests. Right. And that was the end of the conversation,

and then my father got straightened out. And it's funny because years later, Tony DeShik owned the restaurant, called Don Pepps. It's still opened. It's on Leffitz Boulevard, an ozone park. Oh, my goodness. It's great food. If anybody wants to go to it. Yeah, shout out. Free plug. Yeah. Today's episode is sponsored by prize picks. Prize picks is North America's biggest daily fantasy sports platform. They're the easiest and most exciting way to play DFS. It's just you and the numbers. You're not battling thousands of other players, sharks and pros. I am a complete lay person

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And then this guy, Cyril Perron, who was another captain, he inherited it. And now another wise guy named Mike, he inherited it. So the Genevice family always owned this restaurant. And we went there and we would go there and Tony the Sheik would be there. And he would come over and he would like be my father's best friend. Right. And then he'd walk away and my father go, yeah, now he's my best friend. When I was a kid, he wanted to have me killed.

Yeah, right. There is a lot of bullshitting. and really false smiles and pretences in the mafia life. Because, you know, your father, I believe, had dinner with the same guy that he clipped three days before. Or would have dinner, be having dinner at the table with a guy, a maid member who they knew was going away. But you're able to smile and put on pretenses. It's a very creepy thing. But I want to talk about your father because he had a lot of.

hustles. I think it's a really big misconception when you know, you see clickbait on all these YouTube videos, mafia hitman. But hitman's not even a job. You don't really even get paid to do hits in the mafia. It's, uh, it's handled by people that are employed. That's work. That's just what you do. You're on payroll and the boss says, go push a button on a guy. That's what you go do. But you're not killing enough people. In other words, your father had to earn. just because you might go clip a guy every now and then you still have to earn like what were some of his when he got straightened out when he became a maid man what were some of his rackets well it's funny because when he first got straightened out he was broke he was only a kid so he got straightened out when he was 26 now he was married he married my mother who was 19 at the time and they and i was actually born the same year in 53 the same year he got made and he actually worked as a doorman out of dicing game for $20 a night, like as a maid member. Oh my God. And he would told me he would work at the crap game. He would get paid $20. He would go home. He would give my mother to $20 because she had

me. She had to buy milk and diaper, whatever. And then him and Tony Lee, his partner would go out and hustle. And they were doing stickups. They were doing whatever they could do to get money. They didn't have a crew yet. He had no crew yet. Right. So he was just, he said on Christmas Eve, they would go stick up toy stores like they were broke. We lived in a house next to the train Like we lived in an apartment that right outside the window was the train out down the bone your Avenue in East New York. Like, you know, we had no money. And then what happened was there was a crew of kids in East New York and John was running

around in East New York at the time John got it. They were all teenagers. And they were doing some bad stuff. They were breaking into jukeboxes and stealing nickels and stuff. And one guy was named Nikki Carraza who later became the acting boss. and this whole crew and Tony Lee's brother, my father asked Tony Lee's brother, Mikey Gao, who later became a wise guy,

who these kids were? And he said they're lefty, lefty, Karaz's kids. And my father knew lefty and his brother, cowboy. They did time together. And he brought them to my father. And then my father put them all to work. And he started out with horserooms. That's how he started making his money.

Originally, he opened back then. They used to call them horserooms. And you would walk in. and they'd have a big blackboard on the wall, like you're seeing in the movies. And there'll be guys on phones. And they started with horse rooms, and they were booking horses from all over the country.

And that's how he started making money with these horse rooms. That was the beginning. And he started making money. And then they started doing hijack. Then these guys that he started putting together, this crew, they started hijacking. They started back then there was no casinos. So dice games were very big.

He went partners with the Lucchese family. he was very, very close with Paul Vario, who was in Goodfellows. Yeah. They were very, very good friends. Paul Vary was brother Babe Vario. They were very tight with my father and his partner. And they started open up dice games, very big lucrative dice games with $300 dollar limits.

It was like casinos. And because the mob, it was a different role back then. It was like every, like they had dice games around the clock and every family had a slot. Like, so they broke. day up. Like, so, so you, so let's say from one in the afternoon to three was the Genevice family. So they would have a dice game in the Bronx. Right. And then at three o'clock, three 30, they closed their dice game. And then from six to nine, the Lucchese family had a dice game in

Canarsie. And then they would open. And then midnight to three in the morning, the Gambino family would have a dice game. And, and they'd open. And I worked in one, our slot, when I worked in the 70s was our slot was one to four in the Bronx on Gun Hill Road. And how they did it was they have a dice game. But all the families made money. So like, so if it was the Gambino's slot, they banked the game. The banker makes the most money. The bank, they banked the game.

The Lucchese family, they would shylock the game. So if gamblers want to borrow money, they would borrow it off the Lucchase family. The Bonano family, they write the numbers. There'll be a guy there writing numbers, which was big, you know, big for a lot. And there'll be, and guys, you're going to win. Give me $20 on $1, 2, 3. Give me $50 on $7,8, 9. Give me $100.

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Drink responsibly. B-21. So in other words, the people, the gamblers there rolling dice, also might want to put in numbers. Then you have another crew of, with the food, you know, Sam,

making money with the food. So everybody made money. So that's how he started making money with. Hang on. This is fascinating. So the purpose of having these slots is to basically give business to all of the families, to share the turf. Right.

So if I'm a gambler, I'm a degenerate and I'm on Gun Hill Road in the Bronx, I can't, but it's 1 p.m., I got to shoot down to Manhattan because it's the Gambino's turn. It's a Gambino's slot, in other words. You don't, but we, but they also had, but they also had drivers and dispatches and it was a whole. So they had drive, they had a dispatch, like a cab. dispatch and you would call them and say, listen, I want to go to the dice game. I'm here. They send a driver to get you and bring you to the game. Then they had luggers. So what a lugger

is, like let's say you're a lugger, I have 10 guys that want to shoot crap. I bring you to the game and I get $50 ahead. Right. Oh, and that's how you guys marketed. Right. You mark the spots. So now I get $50 ahead. I'm going to shoot crap. I'm the lugger, but I'm shoot. So you give me, I bring you 10 guys. You'll give me 500. I'm, I'm gambling. Yeah. So, you know, so you had dispatches, you had drivers, you had luggage. It was a whole thing. And it was a cartel.

It was completely shared. It was almost like a union. Right. Profit sharing between the five. So organized. And it went, it kept, it went around the clock, practically around the clock. And so your father for the Gambinos had action in these games. Oh, yeah.

They had the biggest games. Him and Pauli Vera had big games. Where were his spots? Oh, they were all over Brooklyn. The spot I first worked. was in the Bronx on Gun Hill Road. At that time, he was partners with the Genovese family. They were banking the game.

My father and the Genevice family were poorly. They were in Canarsie. They were in Brooklyn, all over Brooklyn, Manhattan. We had a game on Mott Street. We had a game. I worked in that crap game on Mott Street. I mean, they were all over the place. And were these mostly Italian patrons?

Or was it everybody? No, everybody came there. I mean, we had a game. So my father had a crap game. Like I said, the first one I worked, what was in the Bronx. It was a $300 limit game. It was on Gun Hill Road. I was a kid.

I was 18 years old. And people would come with crazy money. And I told them one day, why don't, why we have a game all the way in the Bronx? I'm going to Rooh. Why don't we have a game like in Queens? He goes, because there's all junk dealers in the Bronx. Because all the guys in the Bronx with drug dealers. Selling heroin and crack.

And they would come in. No, it was way before crack. Heroin, yeah. heroin, and they would come in with bags for money. Right. And all these guys, like Arnold, Squateri, Fonzie, all these guys. Later, John actually made all became made members of the Gambino film, but they were all dope dealers, and they would come in and lose crazy money.

Right. So they could, John actually made dope dealers? When John got straightened out, all the guys that were selling heroin around them that were Italian, 80% of them all got, became made members. And John allowed them to keep selling? Well, yeah, the rules would weigh different. He really threw, took the rules and threw it out the window. Yeah. Arnold was a, thanks John.

Arnold was a big heroin deal. Arnold Squadary was a big heroin deal. His partner, Fonzie, a lot of guys, a lot of guys. Eddie Lino, I mean, there was a lot of guys that were big heroin dealers that all got strained out. But that's how my father started rolling. He put together this crew with Nikki Karaz and all these guys. And they started, you know, with the hijacking. Yeah.

And that's how it started. and then he started making big money. And so John Gotti was part of that, you know, early 70s cadre of like young guys coming up that got into hijacking with, you know, some of the guys we know from Goodfellas. Tommy, Tommy, D. Simone. Tommy D. Simone. And, and Sal. Jimmy Burke. So did he actually work for, did he do scores for your father?

No. So what happened was after my father got straightened down in 53. when he started putting together this crew. So John was a teenager also in East New York with this crew. And so there was two, so out of the younger generation behind my father, excuse me, there was a crew.

So this guy, Nikki Carraza, who's still alive, he's a captain now, but he was, became my father's main guy. There was friction between him and John Gotti, like who was the toughest kid in the neighborhood. And there was friction, and they started having personal beefs. The two of them,

like fist fights. I mean, like bad beefs. If that didn't happen, John Gotti may have winded up with my father, but what happened was when they started beefing, my father sided with Nikki and John winded up going with Charlie Waggans, who originally proposed my father. Because my father at the time,

my father and Charlie were the only two wise guys in East New York. Then my father proposed Tony Lee, and then it was Tony Lee, my father and Charlie. And John went with Charlie. and Nikki and his crew went on my father. Okay. And that's how it started. That was in the early 60s.

So they were in proximity, but he wasn't actually under your father. Right. But they did business together. Charlie and my father always did business together. I mean, they shared loads together. I mean, you know, they were all hijacked. Because listen, Kennedy Airport was right in ozone park.

It was right there. It was perfect for the taking. And the Lelkeesie family, Paul Vario, had the union. They ran Kennedy Airport. The Teamsters, they had it. Tim, Frank DeWop, they ran the airport. In Ozone Park, in my neighborhood, when I was a kid, you had two prominent places. He had an Aqueduct racetrack, which back in the day, on a Saturday, it was 30,000 people in the racetrack.

Now, of course, the cable and everything else, nobody goes to see live racing anymore. But back in the day, it was tremendous. A million dollars worth of races. Tremendous. Yeah. So that was right in my neighborhood. and John and Kennedy Airport was in my neighborhood. So in Ozone Park, everybody worked either in Kennedy Airport or an Aquituck racetrack.

So the airport was wide open and they were taking everything out of it. Yeah. Taking everything out of it. And they all worked together. They all sold loads together. You know, it was all, you know, everybody made money. Yeah. Dad, your father wasn't part of the Lufthansa heist, but he was around it.

You know, he knew he probably fenced some things. Yes. So what happened was off of it. the night of the heist, I was in prison when that heist took place in 79. I believe I was in prison. I was in Art to Kill. So after the heist, they actually stashed the stuff by Vinnie Asara's house, cousin's house, and they went to my father's cafe, Cafe Liberty, and they partied,

they celebrated, he was waiting for them to come back. People asked me if he knew about it. I don't know if he, I don't know if he knew about they were going to do it that night, but he knew to wait for them. Like they might have called him later, we're coming there because he was close to them because I was in jail at the time. And they came to Cafe Liberty

and they were partying with him and celebrating. I got out of jail in 1980. My father had a golden silver exchange because gold and silver was skyrocketed. Carter was the president. And we all know about Jimmy Carter. We all know how that went. It was good for us.

But so, you know, unfortunately for society, when the economy in the United States does bad, the mob does good. Exactly. You guys loan money because the interest rates are too high. When inflation sky rockets, the price of gold goes up. Right. Yeah, there's a ton of ways. People are miserable, so they're gambling, using dope.

Right. So when Jimmy Carter was the president, we were making big money, even with gas, because there was gas shortages and gas stations were closed. We had our own gas. I mean, we just will make a money over. What were the gas rackets? I'm curious. Well, I mean, so Michael had the,

gas tax thing going. But we had, so there was, there was a gas shortage. And so we had a gas station and we'd make the guy open up at midnight and we'd sell gas. So you make the guy. What does that mean? Well, you encourage him. So what happened was we went in there, well, I didn't go in there. My father went in there with the sky skinny Dom and they, the guy owner of the place, they told them you're going to open up every night at 12 o'clock. Oh, because there was a law that you couldn't, because they were trying to ration gas. And they didn't allow the gas stations. Lines were crazy. Like, you had to wait three hours for a gallon of gas. Right. So we, they made the guy open at midnight. And that's, and then- And then charged way, way more. People came and they had to pay to come. And, you know,

plus we all gassed up our cars. Right. Right. And it was a whole big thing. So that must have been good money. It was great money. But the gold and silver, so what happened was golden silver skyrocketed. So my father opened up a gold and silver exchange because now when it's golden silver skyrocketed, all the drug addicts and everybody was just robbing everybody's, everybody was getting robbed. Yeah. And they were all bringing the gold and silver to my father and Tony Lee because, you know, they knew wise guys owned the place. And so my father had one in Harlem and one in Ozone Park. And Jimmy Burkin and Vinie O'Sara knew.

my father, and they brought him, when they robbed Lutonza, they had a lot of jewelry that they put on the side. And about two years after the robbery, they brought all the jewelry to my father. And the reason why they brought my father to jewelry is, first of all, they had a good relationship with him, and they didn't want the bosses to know anymore. They didn't want to cough up any more money. Right. So they brought the jewelry to my father and Tony Lee, and they told my father and Tony Lee fenced the jewelry and, you know, just don't say nothing. And my father would never to say nothing, and my father and Tony Lee got rid of all the jewelry. Now, when you say fence, fencing is when you take and sell stolen goods, how is he fencing

him? Is he selling them legally through these pawn shops slash gold places, or is he actually also selling them on the black market to other fensers? How does that work? Well, what happened was they had connections in the diamond district. They used to call them the beards. The Hasidic Jews. Right. So, and they had the diamond, they still built. They had the diamond district locked up. So my father and they're criminals. I mean, some of them are criminals. You know what I mean? And so my father had good hooks with them.

They did a lot of business with mafia. Yeah. They were like tied in. Yeah. And they were, some of them were tough bastards. I mean, they were dangerous, you know, they'd kill you, you know.

And so they had ends with them and they had smelters, what they called smelters. A smelter is someone that melts jewelry. Right. And so they would, so they brought all the jewelry to them. And then so, so basically a,

a junkie rips off a gold chain in Harlem, sells it to your dad. Your dad takes it to the diamond district. They smelt it down. And then they turn around and sell it legally. Yeah. Or make rings out of it or make other jewelry out of it. Wow.

If Sal, police he had, he opened up a golden silver exchange. That's right. That's how my father and my father didn't like Sal. Because of that reason. Because Sal was like, became like,

his competition or whatever. Right. But, uh, yeah. So, and that's what they did. And Tony even got arrested for in there because he, he bought watches off an undercover cop. And it was so funny because after the guy walked out of the, the store, because I had to hang out in there.

After the guy walked out of the store, Tony looked at me and goes, I'm going to get pinched. I go, why? Because that guy was a cop. Wow. Because I knew it. I just have that feeling. Sure enough, the next day, they came in. And then the judge, Brenner, that Sal Pelosi.

Informed on? Right. The dirty, dirty judge. Yeah, he was the judge that the case actually went in front of him. We paid him $25,000 and he dismissed the charges. Okay, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. If you did take a pinch during this time, the 70s and 80s,

especially in Queens County, we're talking the deep boroughs. There was a good chance that you guys were able to pay your way out of it. Can you talk about that a little more? So there was this judge named Judge Brenner. He was involved with the Genevieve's family. he was, so there was this restaurant that still opened that this guy, tough Tony on Tony Corona. He just passed away not long ago.

He was a very powerful Genevice captain, but he had, he owns this restaurant called Parkside that's in Corona Queens. That's been there for many, many, many, many years. And this, and a lot of people used to go to there and eat dinner because it's a really good restaurant. So you had all kinds of walks of lives, like legitimate people, judges, lawyers, wise guys, everybody went there,

which we went there ourselves. And this judge Brenner used to go there. often because Queens, the courthouse was right near the restaurant. And this judge used to go there all the time. And Tony got to him. Right. So when your case went in front of him, you went to Tony and Tony went to the judge. So that's what happened.

So Tony got arrested and it got put in. And now you try to get in front of him. Right. The lawyers, whatever maneuver, get the case in front of Brenner. Is the Supreme Court judge, Queens County Supreme Court judge. case, Tony's case got put in front of him. And then we went to Tony. We gave Tony 25,000. And Tony gave it to the judge and the judge dismissed the charges. And depending on the severity of the case, that the price would either go up or down, right? Without a doubt. Okay, if this is

aggravated assault, you might be paying 50 grand. Of course, that's a different story. Because now it gets a little more, you know, a little more involved. We're talking about like stolen watches that weren't even stolen. They were brought in by an undercover cop. That's a lot of money for just a stolen watch to get yourself out. But freedom is priceless. That's right, because you can't earn when you're behind bars. My father used to tell me two things. You got to stay healthy and stay free.

You can't make money if you're sick and you can't make money if you're in jail. Yeah. And for a guy named Fat Tony, giving out health advice, that is, you know, he means it. Yeah, yeah. Guys, let me take a quick minute to tell you about factor meals. It's the new year.

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Money is coming in from every angle. He's just, he's a, he's a street guy. Does he move up to captain or does he just stay as a, then later on. So, but he was very powerful. So what happens now, he's putting together this crew. And they're bringing other guys in, like, they're bringing their friends in. So now at one point, they had like 75, 80 guys with him.

And you're talking about, like, a lot of them were really good guys in areas. And now these guys, they start, they're starting Shilock businesses. Right. They're starting a number of businesses. They're starting the bookmaking businesses. They're hijacking trucks. And a lot of things are going on. Now, also, the mob is running union.

unions. So there's a union called the tapers union. That's the sheetrock union. So those are the people that put up sheet. Every construction thing had its own union, like the bricklayers had a union, the carpenter's had a union, the plumbers had it.

And they called this union, it was the tapas union. They were the guys that put up the sheet rock. That union was always run by wise guys in East New York. By murder ink. But what happened was when murder ink went out of business, they all got the electric chair, it sort of got lost in the shuffle, this union. And Charlie, wagons, never looked into it, never bothered with it.

When my father got straightened out, he knew about this union because he was raised by Murder Inc. Because his best friend's fathers and uncles were in Murder Inc. So he knew about this union. So he went to Gambino. Now was the boss. And he told Gambino he was going to go after this union to try to get it back for the family. And Carl gave him the okay.

And my father went after this union and he took over this union. The tape is union. Okay. Now, I like to think I know a lot about how the mob makes or made money. I still can't wrap my head around it. So please explain for us how does the mafia make money from unions? Okay. There's a lot, there's a couple of different ways.

So first, the best, the main way is the dues, the union dues. So everybody pays union dues, right? the union dues are invested, like a 401k, whatever they're. Right. They're invested. So what they do is so now the union collects all the union dues and the mob goes to them, okay, listen, we're going to build a hotel up on a, on, you know, sunset strip, whatever. And we're going to, and they build, they use the union dues for the hotel, but who owns the hotel? The mob owns the hotel. But it's paid for by, with the union dues. Which, that's what,

Jimmy Hoffa was doing with the Teamsters pension, building casinos in Vegas for the mark, exactly. And that's what it is, the pension fund, the union dues. The union dues all going to the pension fund. It's all part of the union dues. How my father made money was that way also. But here actually got to, so now he goes after the union and he snatches up the president of the union, right? He actually got arrested for it. For leaning on him. Right, for extorting the union. He got found out guilty over a technicality. I don't know. When the guy was testifying, he made some kind of mistake.

And he beat the case. So now he took over the union. And what he was getting every month was an envelope. So in other words, they was skimming. So every month he was getting, I don't know, $5,000, whatever he was getting a couple of thousand a month. And he went to, and the best is this is. And what happened was he goes to, so now he takes over the union.

The president's with him. He takes the union over. And then he goes to see Carl Gambien. And Gambino, now he tells Gambino, we're getting an extra amount of dollars a month. And Gambino tells my father, well, you know, this belongs. Now, this is after my father took over the union, got arrested, paid for all the lawyers on his own, beat the case. Gambino turns on and tells my father, you know, this union belongs to the family, right? So my father's guy says, he wants to say, no, belongs to me.

But he says, yeah, of course, it belongs to the family. He goes, okay, you take $2,000 a month. and you service the union for the family. My father didn't like that, but he had no choice. Years later, when Paul Castellano became the boss, he sent from my father because now he wants to know about the union because they had all the unions. They had this thing called the club,

and they were fixing bids, construction bids. So they sent from my father to talk about the tapirs union. And Paul, this is my father, what's your end out of this union? My father tells him, he goes, that's all you get. He goes, yeah, your cousin, that's all he gave me. And Paul upped it. Paul up my father's end.

Right. So your father, he was able to start with the Tapers Union and work his way out. Yeah. And seize a lot of these unions that were kind of a disarray. Well, he, no, what he did, he started, he got with the Tapers Union. Then he opened up, he went partners in a drywell and a company that did that. So he had a, with this guy with Mike Goodell, this. guy's name was he owned a big drywall company and major and they and that was the company that

there's companies that sheet rock right the construction jobs right so if there's a house going up in ozone park right your dry your dad's drywall companies get that bid right otherwise the union ain't going to send you know unions you're not going to get no workers right you know what i mean okay can you explain no no show jobs well yeah so i had a no show job so So no show job is, so we come, we're on a construction site. So let's sit. So my father had the tape is union. So what he'll do is so they'll put you on the payroll on a job site, like with Michael's.

So you have a company that wants this job. Yeah. So, okay, you could have this job. I want five no show jobs. So you're just going to give a name and a social security number and you're going to get a check every week. We're not going to the job. It's part of like an extortion scheme. Yeah, right.

That's what it's so you're extorting the job legally to make it look legit. Right. Like I had a, like when I got out of jail in 80, my brother-in-law was the head maintenance guy at the Dormonico Hotel in Brooklyn, in Manhattan, right? It's a major hotel. I had a no-show. I was on the payroll and I got a check every week, but I never went to the job because I needed a job for parole.

And when my parole officer would go there, they would tell him I was on the swing shift. So if you went there in the day, I'm on the swing shift. I'm working in the night. And no PO's working at night. Right, right. So, you know, but as long as I showed him the pay stuff, he was okay with that. Right. So that was a no-show job.

A no-show job is just if you want the job, you could have the job, but you know, like. I see. So in other words. And another way, there's more to it because what happened was, plus to make it look good, some guys would go to the job for an hour and just drink coffee and leave. They would be made foreman's. Like, I know guys, I know wise guys that were foremen's on the job. They make even more money, but they had to come to the job to make it look good.

So they would just go there to the job and sit there for an hour or two, drink a couple of cups of coffee and then leave. Right. And they're foreman. So if there is a union that's working on a job site at a hotel, wherever there is a union workforce and that union is infiltrated by say the Gambinos, the Gambinos tell whoever the investor or the owner of the company, you owe us for 10 jobs, but there's only seven workers there. So that profit is taken from that three no-show jobs.

Right. Right. Plus. It's like skimming. Yeah. Without a dot. Plus, and also you do get people real jobs. Right.

You know, like, Netflix, cousins. Like the job at center. Mm-hmm. Okay. In Manhattan, I'm sure they heard of the job at the job at center. Okay. It's a convention center in Manhattan. Yeah. It was built by the mob.

Right. The Genevice family literally ran, had the Java center. You couldn't get a job in the Java center without being connected to the Genovese family. Like everybody that worked in there had somebody they were related to or someone they knew in the Genevice family. This was a major convention center in Manhattan. That's still major today.

Yeah. They have. Now, everybody I know that worked in there had relatives. All my friends that worked in there were Genevice guys, sons and cousins and nephews. They all worked in the Java Center. You see that payroll chart? It's just a bunch of Italian surnames. And when Giuliani came into off, when Giuliani, Giuliani,

closed, got them all and he cleared it all up. The phoned fish market. All the mob people worked in the foreign fish market. You couldn't get a job in the food fish market without being mobbed up. You couldn't get a job in the convention. set the, even the play, even Broadway, you go to a Broadway play? Okay, you know the old ladies that give out the, in the beginning, you get that little pamphlet, right?

So, Broadway's on the west side of Manhattan. The west side of Manhattan was run by the Westies. The Irish. Right. Who were affiliated with the Genevice family. Oh. All them old ladies that worked in there were all their aunts and mothers. You couldn't get a job on Broadway without going.

to the Westies. Right. The pier on the west side, you couldn't get a job, all their, all their rants and, and we used to work the boots, to take the boots, you couldn't, they had everything locked down. Yeah. Yeah. New York and the 70s and 80s.

I mean, they built a lot of buildings. They had their hooks in everything. Everything. So let's back up to you. Now, you're witnessing this. You're kind of starting to come of age in this era. I think you're 16 when you dropped out of school and you went to work for your dad.

Right. So when I was 16, I got suspended. I was, I never liked school. I was a truant. Once I found out that my father was in the mob and everything and I knew he was a criminal. Like I sort of, I don't know, I thought it would be okay. You know, like my train of thought changed like a little.

So I became a truant and I started getting in trouble in school. And then when I was 16, I got suspended. And my father really goes upset. He didn't talk to me. And he would just come home and look at me and he'd walk in the bedroom and he wouldn't talk to me. So I called up my uncle Frank, his older brother, excuse me. And I said, listen, he don't want to talk to me.

You need to come here. So my uncle Frank came to my house and we had to sit down in my kitchen, the three of us. And he listened to my uncle Frank. Because there was a big age crap. My father was the youngest of eight. And my uncle was like 20 years older than my father. And was he also involved? Yeah, he worked for the transit, but he was a shy lock, a bookmaker, but he had a legitimate job.

But he was never made or anything. So we sit down and my uncle tells my father, what are you going to do? This kid, you got to put him to work. I mean, he's, you know, he doesn't want to go back to school. So my father looked at me because you want a job. I said, yeah. So he says, okay, I'll get you into bricklayers union or the tape is union. I said, I don't, bricklayers, because bricklayers made a lot of money back then.

Right. Because everything was made in brick, not like today. I said, I don't want to be no fucking bricklayer. You know, he goes, what do you mean? He goes, what do you want to do? I go, I want to work for you. He goes, you want to work for me. And I don't know, he sort of like just looked at me and then he took his finger and he

and he went, well, if you want to work for me, remember one thing, going to jail is all part of the job. And now here I am 16. I'm already lost. And I go, yeah, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't care. And the next day he put me to work. He took me to this club in Merrick Road in Long Island.

This guy, Philly the Pimp. I don't think he was a Pimp. He might have been a Pimp on one time, but that was his nickname, Philly to Pimp. And he had a Blackjack game in there, a big Blackjack game. And that was my first illegal job. I worked in the Blackjack game,

but I worked, I just stood there and I got paid. Right. You know, I just hung out. But were you fascinated by it? I loved it. Was it exciting? Yeah. Because what happened was,

once I drifted off my block when I was like 13 you know because back then we all hung out on our block we were little kids we played wringolivio stickball and stoop ball on our block when I turned 13 I drifted off my block into the neighborhood until like I started hanging out by this pizzeria

and that's when my father took me and I met John Guadi and I met all these wise guys because now my father was concerned I'm running around the neighbor but he didn't want me to get hurt he wanted everybody to know I was his son and I always knew

there was something different growing up even when I was little. Now I find out who he is. And I started getting like some respect from everybody because now I'm fat Andy's son. You know, and I started feeling special. Yeah. And I like the feeling. Of course. Yeah, the Italians, you know, everybody that talks about the reason that they join the life,

you know, it's for respect and a feeling of belonging. You never hear people say, I joined because of the money, you know. You could always go get a package of dope and sell it and make money that way. It, you know, it kind of reminds me of like the way that Black Street gangs in Los Angeles formed because people wanted to belong. You know, it's a sense of community in a place that doesn't have a lot of maybe legal opportunity. So it sounds kind of like that's, that was your path. Hey, guys, let me take a quick minute to thank our amazing sponsor, ExpressVPN. Using the internet without ExpressVPN is like leaving your keys in your car while you run into the gas station for a snack.

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Let's get back into the show. So now we're in the 70s and your teenager, you know, get moving into your 20s. what are some of your hustles? You know, obviously you're working your dad's games. You're working the dice games in the Bronx. How does that evolve? Tell us what your best earning schemes were in that era. So now I went to work in the blackjack game.

Then I started working in the dice games. Now I'm getting paid. Now, don't forget this is 1970, 77. I'm making $100 a day, $200 a day. You're talking, that's a lot of money back then. But today, that's thousands of dollars. You know what I'm like? Everything back there was two for a penny, you know,

in them days, the bus was 15 cents. Yeah. Now it's $5, you know what I mean? So money was money then. So now here I am, I'm 16, 17. 17. I'm making 100 a day, 200 a day. You know, I'm going to the Copacabana.

You know, I'm like, you know, I'm, like, you know, I'm, and so, you know, just like him, just like, you know, like I'm in the minor leagues, let's say. So I'm working in a dice game. I'm writing numbers. I'm writing numbers. I got, I'm starting, I got like maybe a half sheet

with a bookmaker. I'm selling, there's, they're hijacking trucks. I'm selling stuff for them. I'm making money with that. The 4th of July, I'm selling all kinds of fireworks

because they're illegal in New York. Right. So, you know, and I'm starting to make money in the street. Like everybody else, he makes money. And money starts to roll in. Then I got it.

And then I'm working in, and my father had a big, they had a, number of business or with this guy Joe to cat. Then when I was about 18, I went to work in the number. I learned the number business and I would work in the number office and I would, I would make the ribbons. I would get paid like 500 a week for that.

You know what I mean? So we're talking. Where was this number office? It was in Manhattan. I actually got arrested. That was the first time my name was ever in the newspaper. So in 1974, we had, we were banking numbers out of Staten Island and we had the number office on Mowberry Street.

Can I stop you right there? Could you please, before you get into this story, explain the numbers? Okay. Because this is a lost thing. There is no more number racket. Right. So what happened was it originated in Harlem at the turn of the century. African Americans, they invented it.

It was all pennies and nickels and nobody was paying attention to it. Right. So it evolved. So then what happened was actually, Bill Schultz, who was a famous gangster, he was out of Harlem. He got wind of this, that these people were making crazy money. with pennies and nickels making big money and he took it over

and then the Italian mob took it over from him and what it is is so like I said earlier the racetrack was huge right people would tens of thousands of people would be in the racetrack

betting courses and every day in daily news they would have the results the chart right of the nine races on the bottom of the chart they would have the daily mutual handle. That was how much money was bet in the nine races. Okay. Every day. Okay. It would be called the daily

mutual handle. Right. And it would be like, let's say, so it would say $2,530,000, $126. The number that there would be one, two, six. It was the last three numbers of the total mutual handle. And is this, okay, gotcha. So this is connected to horses. Horses. Perfect. Okay. Great. Continue. I'm sorry. Okay. So it's all connected to the horse racing. Okay. It's all, it's all connected to the daily mutual handle. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And the last three numbers was the number and it was 500 to one. So if you bet a dollar and you hit the number, you got $500. Right. Okay. It was 500 to one. So we had runners. Okay. So let's say you were a runner and you had, you worked in a warehouse where there was 200 workers. You wrote numbers. in that warehouse. Every day, if you took $1,000 worth the numbers, you got 25%. We were paying

25%. And you would turn them numbers into a controller. Right. The controller got 35. So there was the bank. And there was the controllers and then there was the number runners.

The bank gave the controller 35% of the gross. The control, gave the runner 25%. So the controller made 10% collected all the work turned it to the bank. I worked for the bank. Right.

The numbers office in Manhattan. In Manhattan on Moaberry Street and it got raided. So my father was going to take us one night to Peter Lucas. Hey, hang on. I'm sorry. You got to finish this. So all this money gets collected every day all around the city from different runners goes to different offices that are controlled by different families.

and then if depending on where does the bank's money, the bank is there, the bank is the bank. Right. So this is essentially just an offshoot. It's another gambling racket that's totally separate from the horse gambling racket. It's made up.

Yeah, it's totally different. Horse spending is one thing. Numbers is completely different. But the number of business, now you have a lot of people work for you. You have pickup men. Right. You have runners.

The runners come every day and turn into money at the end of the day. They're calling to work. Right. they have, we have a pickup man that goes around that picks, because everything's written on, all the numbers are written down. Right. It's not, you know, it's not, you know, there's no smart phones.

There's no internet back then. So, so the numbers, we used to call them books, number books, and the number runner would pick up all the, all the books. Right. Right. And then he would bring the number, the books to the controller. And the controller would it would, would, would add up all the work. And then collect all the money and then turn that money into the bank.

When the numbers hit, bank, if sometimes you lose money. Right. There was a plane crash once. Like, because it's very number betting is very superstitious. Right. People bet on dreams. There's, you know, back then, you know, birthdays, dreams, like, even tragedies.

Like, there was a plane crash back years ago in the 70s. And the plane number was like, I don't know, 4, 4, 4, 5, flight 4, 4, 4, 5. And the whole fucking world played 4, 4, 5, and it came out. You know what I mean? Wow. So like we lost crazy money. Oh, my God. Like, so we had to pay it.

You know, like, so every, a lot of people made money. And, okay. So the ordinary person, say I'm, I'm an old lady and I want to bet my grandson's birthday, even though it's four numbers, but whatever. Here's a dollar. So you put in your bet with the dollar. Right. So all the cash comes in first, of course.

All the cash comes in first. Okay, makes sense. And then some people played weekly numbers. Like, we played numbers by the week. You could play, give me a one, two, three, five dollars a day, you know, forever. And then every, every week, you just give me, you know, 35 hours, you know what for the seven days? Listen, my father's business, we were doing, we were doing 90,000 a day. We were on making $90,000 a day, but that's what we were doing.

That's what you were bringing it off the street. We were bringing in $90,000 a day out from Jamaica, Queens. All, we had number spots in all the bodegas. So now all them number spots have lot of them. machines. Right. So, so I'm, I'm working on Mover Street. We're working in the office. It's, well, I'm in the Ravenite because I'm in the Ravenite. Ironically. I'm in the Ravenite. It's 1974. I'm in the Ravenite. I just turned 21. I'm in the Ravenite. We're going to go to Peter Lucas for dinner. And I tell my father, listen, before we go to Peter Lucas, I got to go up the

street to the office. I got to do some stuff. I got to tie up some ends and stuff. So he says, okay. So now we had traps. All right. So what a trap was, we had a trap was, we had, had a, so what a trap is, it's, it's like a piece of furniture and, you know, you take a, you take something out and you lift it up and you hide something in it, you know, and, and then, you know, and you can't tell something's hidden in it. Of course. So we had a trap. We had a footstool, like a, and although a lot of the work was in the trap. So anyway, I go up the street to the office. I walk up, it's an attendant building. I'm over. Should I walk up the stairs? and there were steps leading up to the roof.

I was on the top floor. And I put the key in and I opened up the door and I hear footsteps. And I went, oh, fuck. And they came rushing in the army. They threw me in the office, threw me up against the wall. Was it feds? No, it was the, it was back then. They used to call it the moral squad.

It was like the beginning of the organized crime task force, the state organized crime. But they used to call it back then the Moral Squad. which used to go after prostitutes and gamblers. That was what they called it, the Moral Squad. And they raided the house and they locked me up. And that was the first time my name was in the newspaper. Wow.

So you took a pinch. Yeah, I took a pinch yet. And I got, I got a, I paid a fine. I think it was a $1,500 fine. Wow. I paid. They took me to the Elizabeth Street precinct. And that's another thing.

So now my name was everyone, now I'm 21. My name's in the Daily News. Mm-hmm. I went out that Friday night. I walked into the discards. you know, that I was hanging out in on Queens Beloit, the monastery. I walked in, I was like a celebrity, you know. Right.

So now, you know, you feed into that. You know, you don't ever want, it's like, it's like heroin. Right. You know, it's like drugs. Now you got, now you like got a stripe. Yeah. Now, oh my God, we didn't know. Oh, you're fat.

You know, that people that didn't really know me are walking up to me. Oh, my God, we didn't know. Oh, you know, it was the girls are, you know, now you just, you get lost. Right. Right. So now you're becoming your own man. Right. You're kind of, you know, not just fat Andy's son anymore.

You're becoming, you know, a wise guy. Yeah, so what happened was then I started putting together my own little crew. You know, guys I knew, kids I knew in the neighborhood, my father liked them. Like my father's godson, little Joe, he became my partner. He passed away now. This guy, Sal, this guy Frankie, you know, all kids in my name. We all grew up together, you know, we trusted each other. We started doing things, you know, we started, you know, doing, we all, you know, into number.

You know, we were into what the mob was into. We were selling porn. You know, we were getting 8mm porn from DB. You know, he was the big distributor. We were selling untaxed cigarettes. We had Nikki and Lenny, who my father were getting cigarettes from down south. We were selling cases of untaxed cigarettes. We were doing whatever we could to make money.

What do you think your best earner was before 1980 when you went to prison? I think 78? What do you think your best earning? my bracket racket back then was probably the number business the number of business

probably because we were making crazy money you know and plus I was getting to pay you know but we were spending it all I made the most money I ever made personally

on my own was um and from 88 to I went to jail in 96 them years was for me personally when I made my own personal money

like when I was you know what I mean, but when you owned your own. Right. When I was, yeah, right. My father was in jail and now I'm proposed. I was getting ready to get straightened out. And I started, you know, and I started doing things on my own, like on my own.

Tony Lee had died in 93, you know, so I started doing things. But back then I was making so much money, but we were spending it as fast as we got it. We were kids. I was a kid. I'm in my 20s. I'm hanging out in the Copa Cabana. I'm Fat Andy's son. You know, it just was a crazy time.

Yeah. You know, with partying, with smoking weed, with snort coke. I mean, I'm in all these big discos in Manhattan, meeting celebrities. My father's hanging out with Frank Sinatra. You know, Frankie Valley's coming to my house for dinner. You know, it just was a crazy time. And you guys were still in Ozone Park? Yeah, on H.D.H Street.

My father bought his first house. So we lived, we moved into, oh, how I moved it to Ozone Park. We lived in East New York on Belmont Avenue. My aunt, my mother's sister inherited a house with her husband on 87. Street in Oslo Park. And that was our first. We moved into that house on 87th Street. That's how we got into Ozone Park.

Then my grandfather bought a house on 91st Street and we moved into his house. Then my father finally bought his first house on 88th Street, a cross street from the park. And then we moved into that house on 88th Street. And that's where we stood all them years up until he passed away. And now you're going down to Florida, I believe. Yeah. He started going down to Florida in 1980.

And what was the action? down there. Well, he what happened was he kept on getting in trouble in New York. There was this, this DA in Suffolk County, Long Island that kept on giving him subpoenas over a book. He had a big book making business out in Long Island with this guy Johnny Boy. They had a

major sports betting ring out there. And this DA in Suffolk County kept on subpoenaing him. And naturally, he kept on taking the 15th and kept on going to jail 30 days, 60 days a year for contempt to court. So he told me, this guy's going to 30 day meet a death. He told me. So he said, I'm going to Florida.

So he had friends in Florida. He had really good friends in Florida. So he went to Florida and he opened up a restaurant. And he started making moves in Florida. So now he had New York going because he still had, he had the gold and silver exchange with Tony Lee. And he had a lot of things going to New York. And Tony Lee was running that.

And he started running things in Florida. He opened up a sports business in Miami. Yeah. They opened up a speedboat rental, an arcade. a pizzeria. You know, he started making moves. He started shy like a money. Yeah.

You know, and he did what mob guys start doing. Just replicated what he did in New York. Right. And he had a big reputation down there. So everybody was up his ass in Florida. Meaning like, oh, like, looked up to him. Yeah, yeah.

Wanted to do favors for it. Yeah, yeah. Coming to him with stuff, you know, because now he had this, you know, he's fat Andy. Now he's in Florida. Right. You know, and he used to tell them.

So when things, he's, so it's funny because we had to sit down. So there's 50 states in the United States. right, 50 states. So something jumped off with this wise guy named Demas. He was from New Jersey, right? So we have a sit down in this place called Charlie Browns.

He was on Highlandale Beach Boulevard. It was over the sports betting. Guys owned my phone, this guy, the bookmaker that was with my father, guys owed him money, this guy, Freddie, guys owed him money. So we sit down, Deemis, Freddie, my father, I'm there.

And so Deemis tells my father, he goes, Andy. it's different down here. You know, they don't recognize this down here like they're doing New York. So my father goes, I'm recognized in 51 states in the United States. And my father's from Larry,

he went, there's already 50 states. My father goes, well, if they make another state, I'll be recognized their too. He meant Puerto Rico. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So my father told him, what did the guy do with the son toast your brain down here?

But, you know, so it was, it was, he started making a lot of money down here. He was doing business with cartel guys, not drugs. They were bringing him stuff. He never fucked with drugs. He was dead against drugs. I had many arguments with him over that. Yeah, your father sounds like he was very old school mafia, stuck by the rules, never

sold drugs, never opened his mouth, ever, like never gave the government anything. You said on an interview that he would get arrested sometimes and refused to even give his name. Yeah. He got subpoenaed once in the judge, and he had to go, you know, he got subpoenaed to go and to go in front of the grand jury. And when he went in front of the grand jury, like, he wouldn't even tell them his name. And the judge says, we only want to know your name. He goes, well, I'm not telling you. He said, he goes, he wouldn't even tell him his name. You know, and that is

the right of an American citizen. That's a constitutional right that the wise guys just kind of inherently understood. He was very old school, especially when it came to drugs. He used to tell me, I'm not selling drugs because I'll be the guy to make an example. I don't know because it was against the rules what people were doing, especially in Florida. And now, this This is 1980. Everybody was dealing blow. I mean, it was crazy. Did you get into that?

I never, I mean, I, I, I, I dibbled in depth. I sold the key here, a key there, but I got involved, I got, I got involved using it. You were really a user. I started using it. You had a cold problem. It kind of got away from you a little. Yeah, definitely got away with me, got away for me. So it started getting away from me when he came to Florida because it was so cheap down here.

Like down here in Florida, when I was paying $30 for a grand. in New York was 120. Right. You know what I mean? There was a big difference. So, but we started making a lot of money down and he opened up in an Italian restaurant. I mean, there was, and then, and then he started doing stuff and then he hooked. So what happened was Paul Castellano sent sent for him.

Okay. Real quick, I just want to, so we're coming into a different era now where the boss who originally made your father, what was his name? Albert Anastasia, he got murdered. He got murdered. What was that about? Was that Paul Castellano behind that murder? That was Carlo Gambino.

So Carlo Grimino was a captain in that family, the Mangano family. They didn't get along. Genevice wanted Frank Costello out of the picture. And Frank Costello was, what, I've been understanding of Frank Costello were together. So they shot Frank Costello in the head. He lived. He retired. and they needed to get Albert Anastasia out of the way

and Albert Anastasia was assassinated. Was that the, in the East of York? No, that was in the barbershop in Brooklyn and Manhattan. My father's regime was Albert Anastasia's main regime. Tommy Rava, they were all his hitmen. Albert Anastasia. Carlo Gambino became the boss, right? And my father and all of them, they went like what they say,

they went onto the carpet. They like, they went to the mattress. they want, so now there was a little war going on. They want to actually kill Carlo Gambino because he killed their boss. Right. And also he killed their captain. Tommy Rava disappeared. Right.

So now they were trying to kill Gambino. So now even though everybody is part of the Gambino crew, these are different factions that have beef. Right. I got it. So now my father always told me that Albert Anastasia was the toughest guy he ever met and Carlo Gambino was the smartest guy he ever met. So what happened was now Carl Gambino becomes the boss.

They're trying to kill him. He knew that he needed them because they were all stand-up guys. Yeah. He sends a guy to Arneill Delacroach. He became, who later became the underboss, to come in. He wanted them to come in.

Now my father told me, so he lived in Brooklyn, he called them into his basement one at a time. And he told my father, I know you were just a soldier, you were taking orders, and, you know, I want you back, and they all made up. And then he made Neil the captain. Okay. And that's how they all got around.

And then my father used to say, yeah. And then he made us kill people for him. Right. And they became his guys, you know what I mean? Because he knew what he had there. Right. So he kind of made the piece. He said, there's no beef.

Right. Let's get back together. And then my father actually killed a few guys for him. My father killed. I have an article. My father killed a guy. and him and another guy. They shot a guy in a florist.

They had makeup on and they went in this forest and they shot this guy five times. He was a wise guy with the Gambinos, but they thought he was in a formant and they murdered him in a florist. So my father actually did work for him. Yeah. For Carl. He liked my father. My father got a long good with him.

So getting back to Florida, so now Paul Castano sent for my father. Now Paul is at this time. He's the boss. So how did he take it over from Carl Gamel? So Colin Gambino's dying. Neil, our nail is the underboss. Everybody assumed that Neil Delacroach was going to become the boss. On his deathbed, he appoints Paul Castellano.

Okay. As the boss. And Neil was okay with that. People got mad at Neil John Gotti, my father. They all thought Neil should have declared himself the boss, which he should have, but he didn't. He probably didn't want the aggravation or whatever. He was happy being the underboss.

So, Carlgan, Bino, anointed Paul Castellano. The captains voted Paul Castano. And he became the boss of the family. He sent from my father in like 1983 or no, 82 maybe. He sent to my father to come to New York. My father comes up to New York and he asks my father, if my father knew the Traficanti family out of Tampa,

that was the mob family in Florida. My father was, yeah, I know him. He says, okay, listen, I need you to go back down there with Tommy A, this guy, Tommy Agro, who was another soldier. because back then bingo halls in South Florida were huge. It was before the Indians opened up the casinos. So they all had bingo halls. And the mob was partners with all of them.

Big $50,000 jackpot bingo halls, which were all mobbed up. And Tommy Egg row, Tommy A was having a beef with the Travecanti family over a bingo hall. So my father goes, yeah, no problem. I'll take care. I know them. So Tommy and my father go to Florida. They sit down with the Travacanties. My father introduces Tom.

Tommy, they straighten out, whatever they got to straighten out. Tommy had a crew down there. And he asked, is my father, listen, when I'm not in town, will you service my crew? And my father was, yeah, of course I will, right? One of Tommy's crew members is a confidential informant. This guy Joe Dorbs.

We don't know. He starts bringing undercover FBI agents to my father as Shylock customers. Oh, man. And my father starts Shylocking FBI agents. that we didn't know about. Now they bugged my father's house.

They closed down his restaurant because now in his restaurant, you go in his restaurant in any given night. Joe Tadere is there, the boss of Buffalo, Sam De Plummers, the boss of Jersey,

peanuts, the under boss of Cleveland is in there. Every night, there's wise guys all over the restaurant. Right. The FBI walked in and just took the liquor license right off the wall.

That was the first thing. They closed down. They closed down the restaurant. And then he got indicted. And, he went on the lamb. Okay. How long was he on the lamb for? He was on the lamb for maybe a little less than a year. And then he got arrested. He got arrested. He got arrested and he got arrested. He got arrested in 84. And that was back when you got fed time, when they gave you 40. It's not like today where you got to do 85% of that. You could actually get paroled. Yeah. You have to go in front of the parole board. Okay. Was that? Was that? devastating for you or did that make you man up and say like I got to earn I'm on my own now? Well, what happened was he went to, he got the, he went to trial three times. The first trial,

he got a hung jury. After the trial, Tommy A, he was called the friend that got lung cancer and died. So then he was on his own. The second trial, we fixed the jury. Where, what, uh, where was this? In Miami, in, in Dade County. Okay. In the federal court. How much did you guys pay to fix the jury. 25,000. What that was, we had this guy, we had a friend of us named Billy Martino.

He was a knockaround guy from South, South Florida. And he comes to me one night and he goes, listen, my neighbor is on your father's jury. His neighbor,

coincidence. He goes, well, you think he'll do something? He goes, I don't, I'll ask him. So he goes back and he comes back to me and he said, now this guy was a bit of a degenerate gambler.

This guy, Billy Martino, he comes back to me, he goes, listen, he don't want anything, he'll do something, but I want to give him 25,000. I said, all right. So I call up New York. I fly back up to New York, John Gotti and Tony Lee, give me 25,000. I fly back to Florida with the 25,000. I give, I gave the sky barely Martinez only 20. I kept five for myself. Because now I'm, you know, I'm starting to lose it now with the drugs and honestly, you know, so I give him 20,000. I go, here, listen, all I got is 20,000. So he takes the 20,000. And sure enough, the juror holds out and we get another

hung jury. Wow. 11 guilty is one not guilty. It was the jury that we paid the money to. So now we get another hung jury. And then he went to trial the third time. Now, every time he got a hung jury, they condensed it. They dismissed some of the charges. And the last time he went to trial, he was only, it was three charges. It was a RICO, an extortion and something else. And he got convicted. So I'm sure the government was trying to get him to take a deal. Well, they offered him a deal, but they double crossed him. So what happens, he had co-defendants on the case that got six years. So he, after the second trial, they came to him and they told his lawyer, listen, if he pleads guilty, we won't give him no more than his co-defendants. Now, his co-defendants got six years. One got eight

years, which he already had three years in, which would have been eight years was fine. Excuse me. So we agreed. He agreed. Now the day of the sentencing, this guy comes in, this guy from New York, this mob specialist FBI guy comes in and he takes the stand because now they're having a hearing to determine the sentence. And he starts saying he's a suspect in 18 murder. is and my, this lawyer's jumping up. My client was never arrested for murder, never indicted for murder.

And the windup is the judge gives my father 16 years. Just off the strength of this guy's statement. So now we fought it. So now he gets sentenced, which we shouldn't, and we fought it. And they retracted the sentence because it said, you know, we had lawyers testify. Listen, he said he wasn't going to get no more than his co-defendants. The most the guy got was eight years anyway. They vacate the plea.

And he goes to trial the third time he gets convicted. Right. The third trial was a kangaroo court. They brought in some visiting judge from Kansas. That probably hates Italians. It's Italians. Right. Just visiting judge from Kansas.

And when he sentenced my father, he told my father at the sentencing, you've been disrespecting this country since you're 18 years old. because my father went AWOL, he stabbed his drill sergeant. I hope this thing happened when he was a kid. He went AWOL during the war. And he said, you've been disrespecting this country since you're 18 years old. And he gave my father two 20-year sentences. Consequently.

Right. With a 13-year minimum. And so he did the minimum. He did the minimum. Luckily, he did the minimum. Then we hired this lawyer, this really good attorney named Linda Sheffield, who was really out of Atlanta. She was good friends with Carmine Persico, the boss of the Colombo family,

Gene Gatti, she was a really good lawyer. She was great with appeals, with motions. And she got him out. She got him out. How many bodies, you know, now that it's all said and done, your father's gone, the life is behind you, how many bodies did your father have on him? I know of seven, but there's more. There's more.

You know, I know of seven, like, uh, some, grisly murders like where axes were involved and you know like but i i know like six or seven but there there was probably more than that yeah most likely probably the fbi i told me a lot of stuff that like i didn't know like like i knew the guy got murdered and he but he told me like other things you know like he just because like some of them were my friends that well you know some of them were guys that were around us like this guy of fat alby He was a bookmaker, you know, and they found him like in the woods with his leg cut off, like he was tortured.

And so when he died, I said, you know, what happened to Fat Albi? He goes, oh, I told him he went to do business with guys he met in jail and they killed them. So I believed it, you know. So now when I started cooperating with the government, the government kept asking me, you know, what do you know about Fat Alby? and I says to them, the story my father told me. And they said, no, that's not what happened. I go, what do you mean?

That's not what happened? They said, you sure your father? I know, to do with that, I said, no, they were friends. But, you know, evidently, they weren't, you know, he had something to do with it. And the mob, if you're told to kill your friend, that's what it is. Well, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, fat Albie, that was more into, how do you say that? That was just amongst them, you know, but I'm just a personal beef. I'm sure my father got permission.

So if you, in the mob, that was. So when you want to commit a murder, like let's say we have an internal beef going on. Like you're in our crew, but there's an eternal beef going on, something maybe we don't trust you no more, or you robbed us. You did something underhanded. Yeah. So we would get permission to kill you from the boss and then we'd kill you. But if the order came down from the top, that's a different story.

Right. Like some people actually volunteered. Right. Like if a thing came down from the boss, like so-and-so had to be. to go. They would say, right, I'm going to give

this to Andy. And then my father, like there was this guy, Carmine Lamendoza, he was a captain with Carlo Gambino. He had a falling out

with Gambino. Gambino wanted him killed. So the order came down to Neil. Neil was the underboss, right? My father took the contract because he wanted this guy,

Nicky and Lenny, to be made. So he took the contract and gave it to Nikki and Lenny. They never, Carl O Gambino eventually called it off. They were going to kill him. So this guy swam every day.

He had a pool, a built-in pool in his yard in Brooklyn. And he swam every day. They were going to actually kill him in his pool when he swam. And what happened was so they had to check out my father every hour. The day that the hit was supposed to come down. And then Carl called it off at the last minute. And they never killed him. And later on, we used to run into Carmine Lamandoza.

And my father would go, he don't know how lucky he is. Right. Right. He should only know. Right. he was going that day. So it's so funny because here you are, you took a contract to kill the guy.

And now here we are a few years later and like we're drinking and laughing and hanging out in some club in Brooklyn. Like nothing ever happened. Meanwhile, five years ago, you were going to shoot the guy in the head. Because they asked, you know,

you took an order. Right. Now, if that ever happened, could you eventually like, you know, after Gambino died, could you tell, could your father tell Carlo, hey, just so you know,

this guy wanted you whack that we almost did it. Like, would that ever happen? No, that, you can't do that. Okay. Because I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell your story. So my father killed Carlo Gambino's cousin. My father was the hit man on Carlo Gambino.

When Carlo, when Albert Anastasia was alive, he didn't like Carl Gambino. And they killed Carl's cousin. My father was on the hit team that killed Carl's cousin. When Carl became the boss, the only one who knew that my father was on the hit team was Arnel Delacroach. Now, if Neil would have told Carl wanted to know who was on the hit team, but nobody ever told him. If Neil would have told Carl that my father was on the hit team, Carl would have killed my father. So you just, you know, you don't talk about, you know, that's a no.

Yeah, totally. That makes sense. Because you're dealing with serious business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your father, you know, he obviously loved you very much, probably had many good qualities, you know, but he's a cold-blooded murder. at the end of the day, did he ever have ambitions to move up and quit getting his hands so dirty? Because, you know, obviously he's a tremendous earner,

which is what keeps your organization going at the end of the day. It's the money. But it sounds like he never got promoted. Like, he never even became captain. Right? At the end of his life, he did. When he got out of prison,

he became a captain before he died. Like, out of respect. Like, the last time I visited him, he was like acting captain. He was, he got, he, the reason why they always said capo, because that's how he had so much power and he had so many. Yeah. And, and, and he was asked to do things over captains, you know, like with that situation of Florida. The last time I saw him was in, in, and I was in prison.

When, when he got out in prison, I saw him in, um, 1998. I saw him. That was the last time I saw him. He had gotten out and I was in, you know, I was in prison. He came to visit me. And he said, they finally made. made me an official captain, I guess now out of respect, you know, and he laughed about it. Was he kind of bitter?

He was bitter years ago. I mean, he was bitter, but, I mean, he had so much power. I mean, he was okay. He had so much, you know, juice and he was so respected, you know. It didn't stop him from earning. It didn't stop him from anything. Yeah. I mean, he got respect from the bosses loved him.

I mean, Vicam Yuso, who was the boss of the Lekasey family, loved him. Everybody liked him. Joe Messina, I mean, he was so well-liked. He was so tight with everybody. Even John Gotti, you know, I'm good friends with Sammy the Bull. We get, you know, he's my guy. You know, I know, I know a lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about him, but he's good with me, you know, he's good with me.

But when John was in MCC in Manhattan, when Sammy cooperated, I was imprisoned myself. What were you down for? That time I was down for the policy, the numbers I got busted for the numbers. But I didn't know that at the time. So when I went to prison in 96, now I'm in federal prison, and I ran across guys that were in MCC with John when Sammy cooperated because he was in POP, he was in MCC.

And they told me that John just made remarks in MCC that MCC that of, MCC that if fat Andy was home, I wouldn't be in this mess because probably maybe he might have made my father the underboss. Because what happened was he needed somebody from that fraction to be underboss like Frankie DeCico who set up, who got blown up in the bomb. He needed someone from that fraction to keep the peace. And Sammy was the perfect candidate for that. He was a gangster.

He was a killer. He was smart. He was an earner. And he came from that. fraction. That was his, them guy, Danny Marino and all them guys, that was their crew. Right. My father was well respected with everybody. So he would have fit in perfect with John. So if your father, think about that twist of fate. So if your father hadn't been locked up in the 80s, he likely would have been underboss to Gotti. And unlike Sammy the Bull, would never have opened

his mouth when all the heat came down. It's a strong possibility. My father definitely missed the boat. And he knew it. He knew like Tony. Tony Lee was involved. Tony Lee was involved in everything. Tony Lee actually turned down being a captain and John got mad. And John used to tell me, this guy don't want to be, like Tony Lee didn't want to be. We didn't know at the time he had cancer. So what happened was that's how peak. So it's a whole, it's a whole crazy thing.

So my father's in jail, John becomes the boss. My father is not upset, but he knows he missed the boat. Like, because if he was out, he would have been in on the whole thing. and he definitely would have been elevated to a big position. He would have definitely been in on it. Tony Lee is in the mix, but he's not feeling well. John wants to make Tony Lee a captain.

Tony Lee tells him, no thank you. John gets mad. This guy don't want to be, not to kill him because Tony knows him since he's a kid. He tells me, John, imagine this guy don't want to be a captain, what's wrong with him. and my father now has an argument with Tony Lee in the visiting room. Like, what are you crazy?

You got to take it. I don't want to be bothered. I'm not going to be on call 24 hours a day with this guy. So John tells my Tony Lee, well, who am I, because now what that was, Angelo was, my father's in jail. Angelo Kwok became the first captain. He gets shelved because of the tapes. Right. Then they make Jeannie Gotti the captain.

Who is John's older brother? Younger brother. Young brother. He gets indicted for heroin. Okay. Now he goes away. Now there's no captain. Now my father's in jail.

Now there's no captain. Now he wants to make Tony Lee the captain. Tony Lee says no. He tells Tony Lee, well, who do I give it to? Tony Lee nominates Picotti. That's how Pete. And now he made, so now John made Piccati, his older brother, the captain. Ah, I see.

I didn't know there was two of them. Yeah. Yeah. All right. It's still crazy scenario. Yeah. So this is now we're in the 80s. Your father's gone.

Tony Lee's dying. You've got a Coke problem. Right. But, you know, you've taken a pinch or two. You're on the street again, though. Paul Costellano. Like, I want to kind of, like, I want to kind of paint these years because the end is coming. For the glorious final era of the mafia is coming to an end.

Paul Costalano is now the boss. obviously Gotti is the main captain. He's got the Bergen Hunt and Fish Club in Queens. They're doing all kinds of stuff selling tons of heroin, which is actually the reason that they killed Paul. Right. Is because they didn't want that the tapes, they had a wire coming out that would implicate all those guys in dope dealing,

which is they were not supposed to do. What was your relationship or how with that whole scene during the 80s? The Bergen Hunt and Fish Club, Were you out on the street earning? Yeah, okay. So my father got it, went away in 84. When he went away in 84, I was going back and forth. So now he's got all these trials.

He's got lawyers in Florida. Somebody had to stay in Florida to handle all this stuff. I stood. So I'm married at the time. I have a son. I'm staying in Florida. Tony Lee and him out of the money, the money were earning. They're giving me a stipend.

I'm staying in Florida. and I'm taking care of my father with his lawyers. I'm meeting with his lawyers. I'm going to all his court dates. I'm visiting him on a regular basis because now he's housed in Miami. So I'm like sort of like out of the picture in New York. But I'm going back and forth. John's the boss.

I'm going back or forth. When I go up to New York, I'm seeing John. I'm going to the Bergen, I'm fish club. I'm going to Richie's Cafe, his brother's cafe. I'm hanging out with Tony Lee. Now I'm starting to get like the drugs, The Coke is starting to become an issue with me. I'm 84, 85.

My father gets, then my father got convicted, I think, in 86. I'm going back and forth. I'm not really earning any money on my own. That's, I'm getting money from them because I have no, I, I, I'm not earning. Because I'm tied up with these trials, with visiting him. But I'm getting my end. I'm getting an end from them, you know? And this is the advantage of being a made guy is that when you get in trouble,

right? What's supposed to happen is that you get a penny. Right. Right. Like you're getting now. Right. But my father was partners with Tony Lee. They split everything 50-50. So now I'm taking care of him down here. I'm going back and forth, 85. He gets convicted. I think in 86, he got convicted. Then he got cancer. He got throat cancer of the larynx. I fly up to New York, John Gotti and my father. And Tony did me money for the, John Gotti says to me, no, none, no friend. the mine's going to die in jail if I could help it. They pay for a private surgeon to remove his voice box.

They take out his voice box. He goes to Missouri, Springfield, Missouri, actually where John died. He was out there, my father, what Pauli Vario was there. Oh, wow. Okay. And they teach him how to talk. Now drugs, I'm getting more. After your father gets sent off to prison, do you go back to New York now that you're?

I didn't go after he left Florida. I went back to New York. he was in Florida for three years fighting the cases. Yeah. When he went to Missouri, I went back to New York. So let's talk about this time because now, you know, this is where Gotti is starting to become infamous. He's beaten cases. This is where the documentary comes in.

Right. Are you involved with the crew on Mulberry Street? Yeah, okay. Are you going down there? Yeah, so now it happens. My father goes to Missouri. I go back to New York. I go back to work with the number business.

My father, they still have the $90,000 a day. So I'm one of the guys running the number business, but I'm still fooling around with the Coke. Yeah. I'm seeing John. I'm going to the Raven Night. You know, I'm still around. I'm around everybody.

I didn't get chased or anything like that. But I'm working with the number of business. But I'm spending most of my money is going. I'm buying coke with it. You know, I'm just not right in the head. Then in 88, I decided to go into treatment. Right. Like I just couldn't do it anymore.

I sent for Tony Lee. He came to my house and I told him, listen, I got to go to treatment, you know. And he looked at me, he was, yeah, he better do something because I don't know how much more they're going to put up with you. Right. Because now I'm taking money off people. Right. Take a money off guys, you know, mad dog guy. Take a money off Johnny Coniglias, the blood, cold blood and murderers.

I'm taking money off them, you know. I'm just doing stupid shit. Right, because when you're that far gone off dope, you become a liability. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, but I mean, I had gotten, you know, I got arrested, you know, I got, we had, I got arrested in the chop.

I mean, I was getting arrested for stuff. They knew I was never going to cooperate at that time. So anyway, I totally paid for my, I needed him to pay for the treatment because I had no insurance. He paid for treatment. I went to treatment. I got out of, I got out of the treatment center. And actually, I got out of treatment on a Wednesday.

And that Saturday, I went to see John Gotti with Tony Lee. You know, and I go see him. He always liked me. You know, he always liked me. He always treated me good. Even when he knew I was fucked up in the head. He loved my mother. He loved my ex-wife. He always looked out for me. For some reason, the guy always looked out for me. So I go see him on a Saturday and he takes me outside. Now, here's the boss. He takes me outside. And he says, so what do you think? You got to beat? So I says, well, I'm not going to get high today. I told you know, just for today, you know.

He goes, all right. He goes, is there anything I could do for you? You know, I don't want you stressed out. And he laughed. I didn't have a car. So I said, well, I don't have a car. He goes, you don't have a car. I go, no, I don't have a car.

He goes, all right, we go back. He goes inside. He had an office. So there was the Bergen, a fish club. And then next story, he had an office where he had his barber chair in the back. He used to get his haircuts every day. So he goes into the office. He comes out.

He goes, okay, let Tony the attention. take you to 80 foot, you're in Atlanta Gary, and there's a car lot there, go to it in the car lot, and there's for Anthony, this guy, Anthony, he's waiting for you. I said, all right, I get into car, Tony, I go to the car lot. They say, you, Anthony, goes, yeah. I said, John sent me. He says, take whatever car you want.

He tells me? I said, now I'm looking for a Cadillac, right? You're right. Take whatever car I want. So I look at it, so I found a, I found a beautiful white, four-door Bonneville. Bonneville's were big back then. So I find this, there's no Cadillac. So I find this beautiful white Bonneville.

And I take it. it. I get it. I go back to the Bergen-Hun and I show him the car and he goes, okay. And he said, here, here's $2,000. I go, really? He goes, listen. He goes, I want you to come here every Saturday because he used to eat lunch at the Bergen-Fish Club every Saturday before he went to the Raven Night. I want you to come here every Saturday with $100 and don't fucking disappoint me. He told me,

I said, you got it. I go back the next Saturday with a hundred. I give him the 100. I go back to second Saturday. I give him 100. I go back to third Saturday. And he tells me how you owe me? I said, I owe you 1700. He goes, how you doing? I said, I'm doing now I'm looking good. Now I'm clean, you know, I'm wearing nice clothes. I'm working. You know, he knows now I'm back at it. I'm in the number business. You know, I'm in the street now, you know, because I was good at, I was good at it. You know what I mean? The only of them couple of years that I got messed up with that coat, but I was good at, I knew that life. I had a good teacher. My father taught me well. I wish you would have taught me how to fix cars, but, you know, he didn't.

You know, so I knew the game. I knew the life. Mm-hmm. So, and they knew that if I was clean, I was good at it. So I was an asset. Yeah, totally. Totally. So he says, all right, listen, keep the 1700 as a gift.

And I kept it. And then I started making a lot of money on my, now I'm clean. Yeah. My head's on right. My father got his 40 years. He's, you know, where he is. Tony Lee's not feeling well we don't know at the time

then we find that he's got stomach cancer you know what are you doing now now things start to take off now things start take off now I have now now I'm so I took over so I extorted a vending company

now I'm in the street so I there was a this guy had a big vending company that was around us he did something wrong I chased him I took over his company did you have to beat dudes up like is that how you would Well, I didn't be, what happened was, so this guy had a big vending company, gambling machines and pool tables and juke boxes, but he was with us.

He was with us. And we would take them, we would just take in an envelope off of him every month. He was just like giving us like a, like a fee. Yeah. Every month. What happened was so he went behind our backs to these guys in the Genevice family and he was doing business with them and he was looking to sell the company to them. Someone that worked in his office was like my spy called me one day and said, listen, Louis is on the route collecting money.

Louis was a guy that worked for this crew with the Genevieve's family. I said, Louis's on the route, on Stevie's route, collect the money. What are you kidding me? I get in a car with this kid, Chris, and I go into Brooklyn and I find this guy on the route. And I jump out of the car and we put my friend Chris put a knife to his throat and I took the bag of money and I told him, you better stay off this fucking route. What are you kidding me? Right? So he leaves.

I take the keys. And then the Genovese family calls for a sit down. So we go sit down with them in Jersey with Mikey gal because now Tony Lee is sick. I go with Mikey Gal and I go with this guy Ronnie One Arm. He was another wise guy. Ronnie One Arm. He became a captain. He's doing life now.

And we go sit down with the Genevice family. And they're putting up a stink that they were partners with him and all this bullshit. And I couldn't tell you're a fucking lying because he wasn't there, Stevie, because now I had chased him. I took his keys off him and I took over the company. The windup was the decision was I had to go partners with the Genevieve's family. I see. But I ran the company.

So I was part of them, but they had no say in the business. I ran the business. I just had to give them their end. And I took over the company. And how was that money? than the medicole. Oh my God, it was crazy money. So how are you, explain that?

So we had spots all over the city in like after our clubs and bodegas and number holes. We had slap machines, joker poker machines, eight lines. We had, you know, Pac-Mans. We would, you know, we had everything. I mean, we were making 20, 30,000 a week cash. Like, it's crazy. And it's passive.

It's just people putting their money in. And you got 50%. Like, you know, so the owner got 50%. you got 50% and I had a, you know, I had a guy working the route. And all I did was, all you do was plug it in and collect money. It's crazy. I had a service guy that fixed the machines.

I had a warehouse. I had a truck, you know, I had a van, two vans, and I started making a lot of money with that. Then I had a credit card business. I had a, I had a guy in a post office. We were getting credit cards. I had a, I had a major, major credit card. Didn't go in like dupe credit cards, like maybe even real credit.

I had a guy in a post office that was giving us credit cards right from the post office, stacks like that. I had crew. So, like, this was my, I'll give you a, for instance, this was my morning, my morning. This was my morning. Yeah, what's a typical morning? Okay, this was a typical. Okay.

So let's go, let's say, let's say it's 19. Let's go 1990. Okay. Well, I was in jail in 91. I got out of 92. So 90, 90, the end of 92, 93, this was my day. I'd get up, I go out. So there's a bakery in my neighborhood.

Where are you living? I was living in, I was living in Lindenwood, Long Island, and Ozone Park. Got it. I was married. I was living in Linderwood. I had a triplex condo. So I wake up and there was a bakery in my neighborhood. I would go to the, and they made breakfasts to all ladies.

I would go there with my New York Post and my New York Daily News. I'd get my, my egg sandwich and my coffee and I'd sit. And then everybody would start coming. My partner Frankie would come. And my cousin, my other, this other kid, Frank. Frankie would come. And so Frankie, my partner, Frankie, ran the credit card scheme. My Frankie, the mechanic, he ran the chat.

We had chop shops. We had a stolen car ring. We had shop shops. This other guy would come. He worked in the number business. And then we would send crews out. So, all right, today we'd have a van with credit cards. They're going out to Jersey to bang out credit cards.

Then we'd have a crew that's going to chop the cars. We had two chop shops. They'd go to the chop shops and chop the stolen cars and bring the parts of the junkyard. then I had the vending company who all right we got it we need five slot machines for this spot we need three slot machines for that spot then I would get we would buy in jewelry with the credit cards and I would take all the jewelry I have someone bring that to the guy that's buying all the jewelry every penny I made was illegal yeah every penny and envelopes are coming to you every money's coming in all every day I'm being followed every day by the like it was just you know and how much were you kicking up because you're you're not made you're not made So who are you, you're just an associate. Who are you kicking upstairs to in the family? I'm proposed at the time. Okay.

Right. My father is still alive. He's still the boss of the crew. So after Tony, well, Tony Lee never would take money off me. So I wasn't really kicking up to anybody because you got to understand. Tony Lee was my godfather. Right. And Fannie is my father.

Right. So they're not going to take money off me. But don't, I mean, but I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm doing stuff for them. You know what I mean? Like, we'll make money together. Right. But I'm not kicking up anything to them.

I'm not giving them an envelope like other people that were with them. Right. I mean, guys around me will kick giving them money. Like, you know, but I wasn't personally giving them money. Because it's supposed to, it's supposed to go that the chain of money is supposed to go from the street to the associate who's taking it off the street to the soldier to the captain, to the boss. Right. That's how it. But they want, you know, they, they want to take.

Can no money off me? Tony used to break my balls because when he found out how much money I was making. Because he never, you know, when he found out I was making a lot of money, he used to break my balls. Like, I didn't know you were making that much money. You 30, son of a bitch. He would tease me. I said, you want money off me?

Like, because he loved me. He was like my second father. You know, when I split up with my first wife, I lived with him. Oh, okay. So he was. So, you know, he, when he, he actually, when I lived doing him, when he got arrested with John Gotti on the carpenter case when they shot the carpenter union president in the yes. And he would tell me, I would come out and he would tell you, you know what today's date is?

No, it's the first of the month. He said, you know what that's to get done on the first of the month? I said, why? Because you got to pay the fucking rent. I said, you want rent for me? I said, if you, if your son lived with my, he didn't have a son. He said, if you had a son and he lived with my father, you would think he would take rent off him? You want rent from me? And he's just stare at me. So, yeah, so the money is rolling in. It's all legal. It's crazy. And they must, Tony must have been, and your father must have been proud of you. Yeah. Then they were. Oh, they will. They, you know, now, but now I'm, I'm in. Like, I'm, I got proposed. You know, my father be friends, uh, uh, Joey Molina. He's the boss of Philadelphia, you know, and I'm bringing messages to, I'm, you know, like the Gambino, like, Nikki,

they're sending me to Philadelphia to meet with this guy to bring a messages to him. You know, I'm doing business with, you know, I have friends in every family. Like, you know, like, it was just, you And I was doing great. I was, you know, I had to respect back and everything was going good. Can I ask you this? How long does one normally, when they get proposed, how long do you normally have to stay in that, like, proposal period before you actually get straightened out? It all depends. I mean, you know, it could be a day.

It could be a year, you know what I mean? Like, for me, so what happened was the first time I got proposed was every time I got proposed and I was supposed to get made, I went to prison. It's so crazy. So the first time I got proposed was in the 90s, okay? I get proposed. My father's still alive. Tony, I just died. Um, and I'm waiting for the ceremony.

I get arrested. I get arrested. I get arrested. Um, I got proposed in like 94, like that. I get arrested in December of 95. I, I proposed. My name went around. Everything's good.

I have to go to jail. I get arrested. I get arrested for bookmaking. That's legal. now. Right. I get arrested. I cop out. I get a two to four. In the state? In New York State, right, by the Queens organized crime task force. I get arrested on a joint task force. Brooklyn and Queens was a whole big book making ring thing. I get arrested and I take a plague at two to four. They have a going away party and skinny

Dom who was a captain in the Cambino family takes me outside and he says, listen, soon as you come out, you'll get straightened out. We'll have the ceremony. You'll get made. I said, all right. I go, I turn myself in. I get two to four. While I'm in there, I get indicted in Miami by the feds. With Nikki Karazer on a whole big RICO case, murder conspiracy.

And I get indicted in, in Florida. I get taken down to Florida by the marshals. And I get 10 more years. Oh my God. I take a plea. I get 10 years. And what year is that that you took the plea?

I took the plea in 97. Okay. January of 97. No, January of 98. I'm sorry. I took the plea. I got, I got, I got indicted in the beginning of 97. They took me to Florida. I stood in Florida for a year. And then I went back to New York State because I had to finish my stay time. So now I wind up doing eight years and three months. While I was in prison, my father died. My father died. My father got out of prison. The guys that were, I was around that skinny down. and they fucked, they fucked me over. They didn't do the right thing because it was a different world. Then they took everything.

They stopped giving my mother money. It was just a whole big thing. So did you miss, were you already locked up when your father came home? Yeah, I was in prison. So you never saw your father's two free men since, you know, the mid-80s? I never saw, I had dinner. After 1984, I haven't had dinner with my father from 1984. 1984 was the last time I had a dinner with my father.

Yeah. Yeah, that's painful. I never saw him. He was either in prison or I was in prison or we were both in prison. So while after he died, what happened was, I had a falling out with the guys that were left. They did the wrong thing. They took money off me. They just didn't do the right thing.

We need to back up now because this is a key part of the story. You know, when we go back to the 80s around the time that you go up to Vermont to get clean. How did you know I went to Vermont? I just got my sources, you know. I got my little snitches. Good research. So when... Founders hall.

That's right. That's right. A way up there to dry out from your Coke problem. It gets messy. Your sister is, gets married to a scumbag. He's, I don't know if he's, he's not made, he's not a wise guy, but he's a criminal. That would be dangerous. Arm robber.

Arm robber. Was he a junkie himself? Well, he became a drug. He became, well, he had a drug problem. So my sister met this guy. My sister meets this guy. He was an armored truck robber. He's hanging out with this guy.

He's pondered with this guy, Peter Sakara. They're dangerous kids. They're mobbed up. They're dangerous kids. She, she meets this guy. And she starts staying in him. And actually another captain in the Gambino film named Danny Marino comes to see us. Me and Tony Lee.

And he tells us, listen. your sister's got to stay away from this guy. He's no good. He's dangerous. He already goes involved with my niece and he took money off for him and a whole big thing. But of course, my mother and my sister, they didn't want to listen and my sister continued going out with him. And he was a dangerous kid. He was a killer.

I mean, they were dangerous kids, him and his partner, they were just, they were dangerous. They did a bid for armed truck robbery. Did he ever abuse your sister that you know? Well, I mean, he, he would get high and smoke. crack or whatever and he would get paranoid and he would rip her shirt off. I mean, he would, he was dangerous. He certainly probably would have. Yeah.

But he should have just stood away from my sister. He knew she was fat Andy's daughter. Yeah. His friends told him, his own friends told him to stay away from her. Right. But for some reason he didn't. Um, and he should have. Did you ever tell him, did you ever approach him and say, look, stay away from my sister?

Or were you two strung out at the time? No, no, I wasn't strung out. I wasn't really paying attention. So she met him right before I got clean. So when she first met him, I wasn't really paying attention. I was in my own, my own self-centered world. I wasn't really paying attention. He was more or less hanging out with my brother.

My brother, Albert, was more or less hanging out with him. And I wasn't hanging out with him. So I just wasn't paying attention. I had a couple of arguments with him. He robbed a friend of mine, robbed his house, you know, a Coke dealer friend of mine. he robbed. So I had some arguments on him. I had some beefs with him, but I never told him, stay away from my sister. I just had some beefs with him. When I went to treatment,

he hit my mother. He attacked my mother. And that was the beginning of the end. Yeah. I mean, you know, everybody when they hear about, you know, citizens, taxpayers, myself, if you could imagine somebody choking and hitting our sweet mother, we want to kill him. It's the first thing we think was we wish we could take him out. When you're mobbed up, that can become a reality. Why don't you walk us through it? Why don't you walk us through how he disappeared?

So what happened was, so I'm in treatment, and they had a baby shower for my sister, and I call up the next day to find out how everything went, And my wife at the time Alice tells me what happened. He goes, I came home and I heard screaming. I went down. He was choking your mother over the spa tab that he ran up. And she jumped on him.

She scratched his face. The whole big thing transpired. I go, all right, now I'm in treatment. I didn't want to leave. I still had to finish what I had to finish. So I get out of treatment and I go see Tony Lee because my father's incarcerated. And I said, you know, this guy put his hands on my mother. And Tony said, I know.

I said, you know, what do you mean? You know, I said, so what, what are we going to do here? And he goes, we're going to clip him. Just like that. And I said, all right, you know, and I said, yeah. And he goes, but, you know, your father has to okay at first. So I said, all right. So I had to go visit my father.

Now this is the mob. Like here, now I'm your son. And I'm coming to you now to ask you, give me permission to go commit a murder. Right. Like, you know, like it's like, you know, father's son conversation. Right. Like, I'm asking you how to fix a flat, you know. So I go visit my father.

And where is he now? He's in prison. With facility. He's in Virginia. Okay. He's in Petersburg, Virginia. I go drive to Virginia. I go visit him.

And I tell him what happened. And the first words out of his art, this is what? This is how mob guys are egomaniacs. The first words out of his mouth was, what does this guy think? I'm dead? Right. Like he made it all about. him or, you know, like, how could he disrespect me? You choked your wife, almost killed my mother.

Right. And what does he think I'm dead? Yeah. You know, like, right. Um, so he okays it. It seems like an easy sell. Yeah, yeah. But also, you know, he's now getting his son into the murder game. Right. So, me, now, and now in hindsight, I wish he wouldn't have okayed, you know, because it was a horrible thing we did, you know, um, my sister and my niece still hate me, which I don't blame them. Um, So anyway, I go back to New York and I tell Tony Lee he okayed it. Now we're going to put it on record because we have to get permission. We're not just going to do something like that. So we sent for Jeannie Gotti.

He was the captain at the time. We sent for Jeannie Gotti. And now they loved my mother. Jeannie and John Gardy loved my mother. And we tell him what happened. And he goes, all right, he goes back, comes back a couple days later. He goes, John okay. John is the boy. John okayed it. And then we put, then we put an emotion. So the hit, even though this guy, this guy that's married to your sister, he's not in any way made, straightened out. He's mobbed up, but he's just, he's a criminal. That hit still has to go up to John, the boss. It still has to be okayed, even though it's not beef between two members of the family, just from you being associated with the game.

If you want to murder somebody, it's got to be approved by the boss. Any murder has to be approved. You just can't randomly kill people because that brings heat. Violence brings heat. When the feds know you committed an act of violence, like that act of violence I committed, the feds hunted me down from the day that happened. Once they know you committed an act of violence and you get put on that list by the, you're finished.

Did your father, when you went to visit him, you know, obviously it's not through the phone you're talking to him in the visiting room face to face did he tell you to make him disappear did he give you any advice on how to actually do it we didn't talk about we didn't talk about anything like that we just told them you know we just asked permission and then i went back and i said he said yes then we got permission from john we didn't have a plan up to that point we didn't have a a way or where or how or what you know it was just let's get permission and then once we got permission then we put a plan in place okay and then And so you, who were the other two people involved?

What were their names? What do you mean? Who was the two? Involved in the hit? The trigger man. The day of the hit, it was me. The day of the hit, I picked them up. Yeah.

I had the hardest job, really, because I had to pick them up and bring them there. So I picked them up. And I brought him to Cafe Liberty. Mikey gal, Tony Lee's brother, he was a main member. He was waiting outside, sitting in a chair. inside the club was this guy Freddie Hot, who was a made guy, Skinny Dom, who was, no, they weren't made yet. Freddie and Skinny Dom were proposed.

And Tony Lee was inside the club. I pulled up and we got out of the car, me and him, Mikey got walked up, kissed us both, hello. And we walked in and we walked in, Frankie walked in ahead of me. I wasn't nervous at all up to that. point and then Frankie walked in ahead of me and when I walked in I heard Mikey because you could lock the door from the outside and I heard the door lock behind me when I heard the door locked behind me I got a little nervous and I walked in and they had bagels and coffee on the bar and we walked in

in and I made myself a bagel and I was eating the bagel and then Tony Lee told Frankie and me come in the back I'll show you the garden he had a garden in the back and we walked out into the garden and he picked tomatoes and cucumbers and he put him in a bag and he gave the bag to Frankie to take home with him. And then we walked back out of the garden and Tony just grabbed Frankie's hand because we made out he was coming there to hear about a score because Tony Lee had a score from him and Tony grabbed the sand and said, wait, I want to talk to you. And I just kept on walking. And when I walked, I gave the nod to Dominic and Dominic took the pistol out and went back and shot him. Yeah. And Skinny Dom was the trigger man. Right. Right. So shot him. Then you,

guys waited until it was dark? Well, I left. They shot him. Tony came out of the back room and said, okay, I had to go to the number office that day. Right. We had the number business. So he said, I go to the number office, you know, make out nothing happen. Nobody, you know, I got my car and I left. I went to the number office.

They took the body and put it in the trunk of Skinny Dom's car and they parked it in Skinny Dom's alleyway overnight. And then the next day they took him on a boat and they, they, you know, put him in the ocean, the Atlantic Ocean. Right. Ty put weights on him. And they put him in the ocean.

Stab opened his belly up his lungs. And they put him in the ocean. And that was it. Yeah. You know, and then. Yeah. And there was, so he goes missing. Obviously, you know, your sister's distraught.

She suspects you. But it looks like a clean crime. It looks like, you know, there's no body. There's no case. No, but they, they, they, They suspected us, but they didn't. I mean, they were in denial. His father kept coming around and his friend Peter kept coming around.

And then they stopped coming around. I mean, you know, it was just a bad situation. I mean, I actually went looking for him with his own father. I mean, you know, it just was a crazy way to live. You know what I mean? Like, I am. I'm in the car with this poor guy looking for his son when I know. Yeah.

We already, we just killed the kid. It's almost better. It's almost more dignified or merciful to the family to just shoot him in the head and leave him on the street. Because at least there's some closure. We figured, you know, nobody, you know, no body, no crime. Yeah. But that's the mafia.

So here we are. Here is father and son. We commit a murder together. Now my sister meets another guy after this. Okay. Now she goes through her the grieving process and everything and she meets this guy named Chris. Now, Chris isn't mobbed up like Frankie. Chris is just a kid from the neighborhood, fooling around with drugs, stealing cars, you know.

not mobbed up, don't know a wise guy from a hole in the wall, like just a neighborhood kid. Right. Dumb fucking neighborhood kid. Ruggiana woman really know how to pick him. Yeah. So now my sister hooks up with this kid. They get arrested in a stolen car with credit cards.

This kid has credit cards. He's driving in a stolen car. They get arrested. My sister gets out. Now my father, come see me. I go see him. I'm in the visiting room. I tell him what happened.

She got arrested. This kid, Chris, he had a stolen car. car, but, he looks at me and he says to me, you know what you got to do here, right? So he looked at it. I go, I know what I got to do here? I said, what are you kidding me? He goes, no, he goes, you know what you got to do here, right? I go, yeah, you know what we'll do?

I said, this is what we'll do. I said, we'll kill everybody she goes with until she meets an astronaut. So now he gets mad. He goes, oh, yeah, forget it. I'll take care of it myself. I don't want you to do nothing for me. He wanted me to kill this kid. Chris. I said, he says, forget it. He goes, I'll take care of it myself. No, you don't have to do nothing.

I'll take care of it. I said, good, you take care of it because I'm not doing that. I said, right? Now, I leave the visit. I go back to the name, but I sent for this kid, Chris, I tell him, listen, you better get the fuck out of here because you're going. Yeah. Wow. I tell him you. And the reason now, this is the, so Frankie, I'm sorry I did what I did. Frankie was mobbed up. Frankie knew the deal. So my thing is, listen, you know, you know the deal. You're mobbed up. You know what happens.

You know the rules. You'll break the rules. You're going to get hurt. You're going to get killed. Frankie knew the rules. So, you know, not that. I'm justifying what happened to him. Right.

But he knew the rules. Yeah. Chris did not know. Chris was just a neighbor. He's a civilian. A civilian. A little kid foaming around with drugs, stole a car with kids duty. Yeah.

That's what people do in their 20s, whatever. So he ran away. Mm-hmm. he leaves he runs away now i don't see the kid now i don't know if he's dead if he's a lot i'm not even asking i don't even want to know like when i'm visiting my father i don't want to know right it's a dead issue right about two years later i get a letter from this kid in jail that i know this kid chris and he goes hey listen there's this chris christoph another kid chris he goes hey listen there's this kid chris that just hit the yard he said he used to date your sister do you know

him and I go, oh, thank God he's alive. So I send back and I go, yeah, he's all right, you know, and they took care of him. But, you know, but the reason why I didn't kill him was because he wasn't mobbed up. He didn't deserve it. So now if he was mobbed up and he knew the deal, maybe I would have had a different reaction. Right, right. But that's, you know, so here we are, father and son were arguing over, like, because I don't

want to murder somebody. Like, that's the crazy, how crazy that life is. Yeah. But we think that's normal. We thought, like we thought it was normal. Like, my father used to tell me, don't ever feel sorry for, for, for the general, don't ever feel sorry for the public.

He used to tell me, he goes, don't know, and I just tell them why. He goes, because they deserve every fucking they get for voting for these people. Like, his theory was, the government was the mafia. Right. He said, listen to me, he told me one day, we were watching a show one day about the founding fathers.

So he tells me founding fathers. He goes, let me tell you what happened. He goes, one day in Philadelphia, they were in this pub, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and all of them. And they're drinking beer. And one of them said to the other one, hey, why are we sending this English bastard all this money when we could keep it for ourselves? And they started a fucking revolution, he said.

And then they wrote the book on treachery, he told me. Right. That was his theory. Like he hated the government. They hate the government. Yeah. He was an old school Italian guy that didn't really feel allegiance to America as much as he did to his own neighborhood. Like that's an old school and his people, Italian Americans. He had no allegiance to the United States.

Right. They were, they hated the government. They hated law enforcement. Yeah. They hated it. Because they were discriminated against for many years. They, they, you got to understand. People don't understand that.

At one time, everybody was corrupt. Yeah. If there wasn't corruption, the mafia would have never became what they became. Right. I mean, who believed prohibition wasn't a corrupt act? I mean, they knew who was going to make all the money. I mean, Kennedy was a bootmaker. Right.

You know what I mean? Right. So there was always corruption. Right. And the mob guys knew about it. Like Roosevelt, the great Roosevelt president, went to the mob when he was the governor in New York, went to the mob. to become, to win, get the votes in New York, to become president.

That's right. They knew there was, they know there's corruption. They knew that all, you know, and that's why they hated them because they used the power against the people that helped him. Kennedy got, Kennedy gets murdered. That's right. Why? He double-crossed everything that helped him.

The mob makes this guy president and then he makes his brother, attorney general, and who does you go after? Hoff. That's right. Turns around and comes after her soul. Of course they hated the government. I mean, listen, that's why the judge, when the judge sentenced my father, he said, you've been disrespect in this country since you've been 18 years old.

You know? Well, certainly your father was always a rebel against organization. You know what I mean? Against, you know, anybody that wanted to tell him what to do. He didn't have a father when he was growing up. He was a street guy. He was kind of indoctrinated from a young age and there was just no changing him. You know what I mean?

I mean, once he got made, he took orders. I mean, he owe, the boss is in that life, and he told me this many times and told me the boss is, the boss is the boss. You can't fight an army. Like he used to tell me all the time, if I ever get murdered, if I ever get left in the street or I disappear,

forget about it. Don't open your mouth. Don't say nothing. You can't fight an army. He said, he said, just go about your business. He goes, if they leave me in the street or I disappear, forget about it. And I saw it happen to a guy and

a guy's son, this guy, Patty Mac, he was a captain in the Genevice family. He got murdered. And his son was a knock-around kid like me, you know, in the street. Yeah. And a month later, he was in a bar and a guy walked in and shot him in the head. Yeah. You know, so, you know, that's the life. So it looks like you get away with this body.

Right. Time goes on. You're making money. It's, we're in the 90s now. how did you feel the change when Gotti finally takes his fall and goes away? How did your life change? How did the structure, the organization of the wise guys, the families, the Gambinos in New York change? So I'm away.

I go away in 91. I'm in jail doing one in a third to four for the numbers that I took a plea. While I'm in jail, well, John got arrested right before I went to jail. So he's in the MCC. Sammy didn't cooperate yet they were away. you know, the family's still operating. We're still, everybody's still operating. I go away in 91.

While I'm away, Sammy flips. Yeah. Sammy flips. And John gets convicted. I get out of jail in 92. And I'm making crazy money. I'm doing great. John's in jail, but I'm making big money.

I got the friend and company. I mean, I'm making crazy money. My father still life totally. He passes away in 93. But now they have a, they create a panel to run. the family. Oh, interesting. A three-man panel.

It's John Goddy Jr., John's son, his brother Pete Gotti and Nikki Carraza. Now, Nikki Carraza was straight made by my father. He was my father's main guy. Right. Going back to right from when he was a kid. Right. He's a captain. Now, a lot of

power. He's on the panel. Now, I'm in. You know, right. I'm now I'm in Florida. He's going to Florida. I'm going to Florida with him. I'm hanging out with him. he's like he's the street boss now of the family so I'm in

I see so when Goddy Goddy's still the boss when he goes to prison but instead of an under boss the Gambino make they make this panel right a three member panel

and they're running the family and Nikki is like the prominent member on the panel right people believe it was John Gotti's son but Nikki was Nicky had a lot of power very very dangerous intelligent a gangster

you know he was a fat andy a prodigy you know what I mean like so uh so so i'm hanging out with him we're going to florida together 93 94 95 we're going to florida then in 90s and then at 95 i get arrested for bookmaking right in new york Nikki's on the panel he's still running the show and everything and then i get indicted with nicky in florida on a case of florida by the feds and then uh that's when things changed up to that point nothing really changed for me even though john was in prison because Nikki was on the panel.

Right. So I had it, you know. You had it in. Right. I had an in. I was making a lot of money. Did the rackets change it all? Because in the 90s, you know, technology really started to accelerate.

What, did you see any new opportunities come in to make money? Or did any old rackets kind of fade away? Well, it's the, yeah, things started happening because they started putting fiber optic cameras in a lot of places. Right. So like the credit card scheme was changed. Like things were changing, you know, the casinos were all opened up. The dice games were gone. Right.

The number of business, the lottery was picking up steam. So things were starting to change. A lot of people started getting into stocks, you know, boost, you know, stuff like that. Honestly, the way I made money, I couldn't make, I could never do what I did. I could never do what I did then today. Right. Impossible. You didn't go white collar.

No. I didn't go white collar because I went to prison. Right. When the people were going white collar, I was in jail. Do you think those are the only guys that actually survived the technological revolution is the guys that went from street to white collar? Yeah, more so than us because we were in the street. Like today, I don't even know what mob guys had to make money.

Outside, like we talked about earlier, they're still shy lack of money. Yeah. You know, are they extorting anybody today? I mean, everybody goes to the law today. Everybody goes to the law. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how they make money today. Bookmaking, everything's online. I mean, to be a bookmaker in my day, you know,

had to go through to be a bookmaker. You had to rent apartment. You had to get phones. You had to get special paper. Today, all you do is get an app. Right. Even illegally, they have bookmakers that I had an illegal bookmaker. He had a website.

Right. I mean, it's crazy. No kids are selling drugs online now. Yeah. I mean, marijuana is legal. I got in an Uber yesterday. It's stunk of weed. Right.

In L.A. I got in a fucking Uber. It's stunk of weed. Like, I don't want to smell that shit. Right. Yeah, yeah, no, it's pretty, I don't know either. I think it's pretty mom and pop. Yeah.

But we'll talk about that at the very end. So now Nikki's on the panel, you know, I'm doing still good. And then I get arrested in 95 and then I go away in 96. Okay. What Nikki, Nikki, Karaza goes away. We all go away. And that's when you got pinched on the Rico, the federal beef, right, for 10 years. Right.

That's when I got Nikki and all of them. I got indicted in Miami with them. And I went and so we all go away. That's when things change. Now when I go away, my father dies, I'm sort of disillusioned with that life. I get out in 04. When I get out in 04, this guy, Nunzi, who got straightened out when I was away, sense for me.

He sends for me. I meet him on Metropolitan Avenue. And he tells me, listen, you're with Nikki now, officially with Nikki now. And he puts your name back in to get straightened out. Now, I'm on the fence, but I don't tell you. him that like I want to get straightened out but I don't want to get straightened out you know what I mean because now my father's dead John Gotti's dead Tony Lee's dead they fucked me when I was in jail but so I say okay he goes until from now until then I'm gonna Nikki wants me to service you I said

fine but I'm going to work tell Nikki I'm not going on any meetings I'm not meeting with any you know I'm on supervisor at least yeah no problem so I started start meeting with Nunzi every once in a while we go for dinner and everything. Then they sent for me. The three of them, three guys sent for me. They take me to this restaurant called Alberto's. It's an Italian restaurant. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, Nunzi, he's a wise guy, this guy, brother.

He's a wise guy, and this guy, Jimmy Boy, he's a captain. And they sent for me. And it's the four of us and we're eating in this restaurant, Alberto's. And they start telling me, because now I'm proposed again, and they start telling me, about who's who. Because they got to tell you who's the official captain. They give me the rundown of everything about who's an official captain and who's going to drive me to the ceremony and all this. And we're talking, right? Fine. I eat dinner. They tell me all this stuff. This guy's an official captain now. This guy's with this guy. And they give me the run down the lay of the land

because I just got out of jail not long ago. And you're 50 years old, practically. No, I'm over 50. I'm 52. And I have my first legitimate job. I'll have you know. Oh, right. So what are you working on way on parole. First I was working for my father-in-law in his tuxedo store until the FBI decided to come there one day to break my balls. So he fired me. Oh my God. Then I got a job driving a truck, which I loved. I'm driving a truck for this company called Island Acoustics. I'm driving a truck to construction sites dropping off gang boxes, you know, to start construction. And I loved it. I loved this job, right? I'm going to Manhattan every day with this truck. I never draw a truck in my life, right? Self-taught. And, uh, so this. So,

part of you say I just want to get out of criminality? Well, you know, my ego, I always want, listen, I wanted to get mates since I'm 16. Right. You know, and I still have that thing that I got to respect my father's wishes. So part of me, and I didn't want anybody to catch a delusion on me because they're still dangerous. And they know I know a lot of shit. So I don't want to, and they knew, they knew I loved that life. So now if I tell them I don't want to get made, like, why does this kid want to get made?

You know? Yeah. So anyway, so now I have this meeting in Alberto's. We talk about, they tell me what they're going to talk about and I leave. And I don't know, about two months later, this guy, Lenny D. Maria sent for me. He's a captain. He's Nikki's partner. Because now we have to be careful because we're all on supervised release.

Like, really can't be seen with Nikki or father. Well, he's being, you know, because we'll get violated. So this guy, Lenny D. Maria, sense for me. I go meet him and he goes, okay, listen, everything's approved, your name was passed around, all the families approved it. As of today, you have permission to go on sit downs. You're going to be recognized as a wise guy. You don't need Nunzi no more to represent you.

All that we're waiting for us to have the ceremony. It could be next week, a month. We don't have the date yet, but it's all done. So if you have to do anything, you don't, you could go. on your own, everybody knows. Wow. I say, fine. And I leave a week later,

I'm sitting in front of my son's house on a bench like this with my cell phone. I'm sitting like this on the bench. The sun's shining, the birds are chirping. I'm sitting on the bench. And all of a sudden I hear, don't move you, motherfucker. And I open up my eyes and there's a gun right in my nose.

And I'm, and also, the next thing I know, I'm getting pulled up off this bench. I'm handcuffed. They drag me, they threw me in the back of this van and they're screaming at me. fucking murder. We got you now. We got you now. And I'm some FBI agents. And now I'm in this van. It was like I was drowning. My whole life flashed in front of my face. And I got arrested for a murder for a RICO with a murder. I get arrested for the murder. Which murder? My brother-in-law.

I get arrested for my murder, my brother-in-law. Where did their evidence come from? Okay. So what happened was a couple of people throughout the years started cooperating with the government. my bro, and his partner, Peter Sikara, he was the main guy he cooperated. So what happened was after Frankie disappeared, this guy, Peter Sakari,

was very dangerous guy. He kept coming around to Cafe Liberty asking about Frankie to the point where Tony Lee told him stay the fuck away from us. We don't know where he is. We don't give a fuck where he is. Stay away from us.

But he had a permit. He knew. He knew. So he finally, and then I'm standing outside. one day and he comes back again. And he parks his car across the street and he walks across the street

and I tell him, didn't Tony tell you to stay the fuck out of here? He goes, well, I really want to know what happened to Frankie. So now I told him, I looked at him, I go, I don't know what happened to Frankie, but I'm going to, I'm going to ask you a question. If someone did something to your mother,

what would you do? And he just looked at me and he went, all right, I understand. And he left. That's an admission of guilt. on my part. And they were able to use that? That's part of what they used.

And they used that. They could use hearsay evidence. The government could use hearsay. The federal law states they could use hearsay government, hearsay evidence. So he cooperated. Then this other guy, Robert, cooperated. My brother-in-law cooperated.

My brother-in-law, my first wife's brother, Louis, cooperated. He was the cooperator on my case with Nikki. So they got a little bit of information here, a little bit of information here, a little bit of information here, and they were able to indict me for the murder. Just you?

No, they indicted and Dominic. Now, I don't know how, so somebody. Skinny Dawn on the trigger. Right. So someone, someone that I don't know to this day gave them serious information because for Dominic, for them to know Dominic was there, somebody had to say something.

There was somebody involved, in the inner circle gave them information. Right. Somebody did something. So him and I got indicted for the murder. So it's just you two. Right. We got to die.

That's unbelievable. This is what happened. To back up a minute about two weeks before I got arrested, I got sent for by a mob lawyer, this guy, Joseph, Joe Carraza, who's Joe Karaz's son, who Jojo Carraza was the counseloria of the Gambino family. He was another guy that my father strained out. He was Nikki's brother, Nikki and Jojo. Okay.

He sends for me, he goes, listen, we got, now Dominic is already indicted for the murder. Dominic's already locked up. I see. He gets worried, he goes, listen, we got, we got, we just got worried that there's someone else is going to get indicted on Dominic's case. We don't know if it's you, John Goddy Jr. or Ronnie one arm, but we know it's one of, one of you's three.

Why would it have been those other two people? Because they did crimes with them. They did, because of the Uv's, the murder on Christmas. of the Barney and Clyde team. Right, which we didn't get into. That was robin social clubs. Dominic was one of the shooters and Skinny Dom. Dominic and Skinny Dom were the two shooters,

and Jr. is the one that put it all together. Okay. So just to keep the story moving for the people at home that didn't really understand, there were a couple of junkies, a couple, a man and a woman from the neighborhood who were robbing mob. Social clubs. they were sticking them up. Right.

And so on Christmas Eve of what year? I don't remember the year. I was in jail when it happened. Okay. So probably the late 80s, early 90s. It had to be between 91 and 92. Yeah. So on Christmas Eve, outside of a chapel and Ozone.

Church, Nativity Church. And in Ozone Park, right, right in the middle of the neighborhood. Right. These two get shot to death. These two junkies. Right. At a red light. Yeah.

Woof. Yeah. Brutal. So now all of these. now the feds are taking these murders and putting them in a RICO charge. Well, Dominic is arrested now for the murder of my brother law and the murder of the Uvis, the Pawnee and Clyde team. So he's indicted for that.

Now, I get sent for by a mob lawyer, and he tells me one of you is getting indicted with Dominic. It's either John Jr., Ronnie one or you. We don't know which one it is. Wow. But I'm always always lucky that way, and it was me. So now I went home and I gave my wife the card to an attorney. And I said, keep this card on you at all times.

And God forbid if it's me and I call you and I'm arrested, called this lawyer, he'll know what to do. So I went to see the lawyer, another lawyer. And I told him what was going on and I retained him. And I said, in case I get pinched. Yeah. You know, my wife will call you and blah, blah, blah. So I had everything set up already just in case it was me.

which it was me. Right. So I get arrested. I get out on bail. I got the ankle monitor on. What was your bail? It was my, it was like,

it was three million. My father-in-law put up his company. My mother put up her house. My cousin, Ricky, put up his house. My friend Donna put up her house. It was three million in, you know,

assets. Yeah. It was in assets. So I reached the three million mark and I got out. And, uh, while I'm out, now I'm,

I'm working. I was driving a truck. I had no money. Now, now the only, I can't pay my bills, my wife's working for her father. You know, she's paying all the bills. I can't. I lost my job. I couldn't leave the house. Yeah. Things aren't going good. You know, nobody's looking out for me, you know, Nikki's not helping me. Nobody's, you know, like, I'm like, you know, on my own, basically. Right. Now I commit murders with these people, you know what I mean? And I don't know. I just, it was sort of like, with the drugs, I sort of like was hitting the bottom with that lifestyle, you know, like I'm going, oh my, you know, what the fuck back to, you know, I just got home.

I wasn't even home a year when I got, I was home maybe a year when I got, I just did eight years and three months. Yeah. Now I'm indicted again. So what happened was I got to back up a minute because now when I first got arrested, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in from this mob lawyer, Joe Karazza, he's the head lawyer on the case.

And I'm willing to cop out already. Like, I want to plead guilty. Like, I want to get 10 years. Like, so I tell him, listen, if I could get 10 years right now, I'll plead guilty. Because we're not pleading guilty. We're going to trial.

And now it started me thinking, like, what do these guys want to throw me under the bus? Because I was the last person with this individual. Right. So now I get out and I'm getting bad feelings. I'm disillusioned now with the law.

I'm facing life in prison. Was a plea deal an option? No, it was no option. I couldn't even talk about. They wouldn't even allow me to talk about. Like the mob, they wouldn't even allow me to bring it up. Like I couldn't even discuss it on my own or I was, they didn't want to hear it. They wanted to go to trial.

So now I need money for lawyers. I have no money for lawyers. I'm getting disillusioned with his life. but I can't cooperate. Like, I just can't do it. I, you know, like, I want to, but I just can't. I'm guilt-ridden. I don't want to go back to jail anymore.

I just was, like, I hit a bottom, like, just with the drugs. Like, I just woke up one day, and I just didn't want to do it anymore. So I had a card from an FBI agent. This guy, Jerry Conrad, who just passed away not long ago, and I would pick up the phone, and I'd hang it up. I pick up, and every time I picked it up, I would see my father's face. I couldn't, I could. because he hated cooperators and I'd hang it up.

This went off for a year. I just couldn't do it. And then I saw certain moves by my co-defendants being made by Dom. Like we had a meeting with our attorneys because I was allowed to go out to meet co-defendant meetings. So we're in this attorney's office and he looks at me and he goes, when did your brother, Lord, disappear? What week was it?

And I look at him like, and I tell him the week. and he goes, I knew it. That's the week I was in Florida. And I'm looking at him. And like the lawyers, and I'm looking at him, he goes, that's the week I was in Florida. I'll have the travel agent produce the papers. So now we walk out.

And it's just him and I go, oh, what the fuck are you doing? What's going on? What are you talking about? He goes, I got a guy in the travel agent. He's going to give me paperwork with the saying that I was in Florida that week. I says, well, what about me? What the fuck? Let him tell him.

He goes, all right. I can't. No, I just, you know, it's only for me. I, you know, I can't know what to tell you. So now he's already planning a friggin. To put it off on you. So now, but I still can't cooperate. I still can't do it.

You know, I, I couldn't bring myself to make the call. Then I meet a guy, a friend of mine, a knock around guy that took a real chance, right? I'm in his house because now I had, we had time frames. You could go from point A to point B. So I added a little. So I'm by his house. in ozone park i don't want to say his name because he's still out there and i'm in ozone park and i'm in his house and we'll drink of coffee and he tells me what do you went why don't you call the government

i was in shock i looked and i go the fuck are you talking now this guy put his life on the line because i could have said what are you fucking rat what are you kidding me i'll fucking kill you how could you and i says what are you talking about how could i do that i said what are you crazy i said how could you even tell me that i can't can't disrespect my father like that He goes, disrespect your father. You killed somebody with your father. You did everything your father ever asked you to do. What do you?

Not save yourself. You're going to go to jail for these people? I still couldn't do it. So now I leave his house. I'm even a little annoyed at him at that point. Even like saying this to me. And I go home and I had some legal issue going. So there's a time.

So they, or Rico has to be predicate acts. but the federal government could, like I did time for bookmaking. I took a plea in New York State for bookmaking and went to jail. The feds could still use that crime, even though I paid my debt to society. They used a crime I already did a bid for. I did two years. They used that crime that I already pled guilty to her in the state court to put in the federal RICO for a predicate.

So to move your points up. Right. So there's a time frame where that, they have a certain amount of time to use that predicate act because I already pled guilty. And I felt that they violated that time frame. Right. So I retain a lawyer.

I don't want to say the name of the lawyer. I retain a lawyer to look into this. But the lawyer needs help paperwork and help from my co-defendant Dominic's attorney. Right. Who you don't trust now. Right. Because I know.

He's in cahoots with them to throw you under the bus. Now the lawyer that's doing this for me, calls me up and says to me, now this lawyer knew me, loved me, like me, like my father, was good friends with us, calls me up and says, listen, these people are going to throw you under the bus. You need to call the government. And this person put their whole career on the line because mob guys don't use lawyers that work with cooperatives. They don't, they won't harm.

them, they won't retain them. And that's a big chunk of their income. Yeah, exactly. The lawyer tells me, you need to call the government. These people are going to throw you under the bus. They told me that they're not going to give me the information I want because they're going to bring it up at trial. And if you use it in a motion, they can't use it at the trial.

But at the trial, it doesn't help me. Right. So they tell me you need to call the government. I hang up the phone. I go to, I, I'm, I hang up the phone, I sit on my couch, I'm thinking about it, I go to sleep. The next morning I wake up, can't do it. I take the card. I couldn't call on my own. I take the card.

I give it to my wife and I go, listen, when you go to work today, she worked in Ridgewood, Queens. We lived in Comack, Long Island. I said, when you go to work today, call this number and tell this guy to come see me. So she took the card. I couldn't call myself. I couldn't do it. She took the car. She went to work. She made the call.

And that afternoon, two FBI agents came to see me. And I, and I profited and I cooperated. And you told them, I mean, did you tell them everything? Well, the first question they asked me was, did you kill your brother-in-law? Yeah. That's the first question. They sat down in my dining room. And the first question out of their mouths was, did you murder your brother-in-law?

And I said, yes. But did you say, well, I didn't pull the trigger? No. At that point, I said yes. And then they asked me how it went down. And then I told them how it went down. And they said, all right, they took out a list of 10 attorneys because I had to get legal representation then.

I took out a list. They took out a list of 10 attorneys. And I knew one of them. I knew of one of them on the list. This guy, Michael Gold, his father used to be a DA. Eugene Gold, he was the Brooklyn DA, who locked up my father many years ago. And I recognized his name. And I knew him because he worked out of my other attorney.

John Pollock's office, which was one of John Gotti's lawyers. And I, and I, and I, um, I, I, um, I, I called and I picked his, day, I took his name and number. Um, the next day that they asked me how much I need, they need, tell me you need money. I said, yeah, I need money for my, I'm behind in my mortgage. I needed like, like, $2,500 to catch up on my bills. Mm-hmm. The next day, the agents came back.

They gave me, like $3, $3,500 in cash, and pay my bills and everything. and then I met with this attorney Michael Gold. I retained him. So the deal was, I had no money to pay him. The deal was that we knew we had to sell. I owned the townhouse in Comac with my wife. We knew we had to sell the townhouse. So at the closing, he would take his fee out of the closing money.

So he was guaranteed to get paid. And I signed papers and all that. So he represented me. And then I met what they rented a suite at the World Office. And I met there with like, I don't know, it was a suite full of U.S. attorneys and FBI agents. And they just, I was there all day. They were just asking me question after question about murders. Are you with your lawyer at the time?

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Always with my lawyer. Yeah. Yeah. And then I wasn't taken off the street yet. I was still meeting. I was still so now I'm cooperating and I'm going to like meeting, still meeting with

Dominic. I'm not wearing a wire or nothing. Right. anything like that. And they're following me around. And I stood home about a month. And then they took me off the street. Okay. And they put you in witness protection. First, I had to go to court and plead guilty to the murder. They took me to court. It's funny because I went to court and I was a friend of this judge Weinstein. And so I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in the court. And I had to make a statement about explain to them about the murder and who was with me. And so I, I'm, so before I did that, he asks me, he looks down to me. He looks down to me.

and he asked me, so, how long have you been an associate of the Gambino family? So I looked up at him and I said, since birth. He thought I was joking. He goes, what, you know, like he got like a little annoyed? He goes, what do you mean since birth? And my lawyer, like, clinked it up. My lawyer jumped and goes, yeah, Your Honor, because the year he was born, his father became a made member of the mafia and blah, blah, blah, and the judge said,

oh, okay, now I understand. And then I had to just explain to the judge about plead guilty to the murderer who was with me. And I played guilty to the murder. Did you know, did you have an agreement before you pled out that you were going to get, you know, you couldn't get over a certain amount of time? No, no, because you have to sign, when you sign a cooperation agreement is you, you're taking a big risk. Yeah, and this is how they, this is how they do it.

So now you sign a contract to a corporation agreement. And in that agreement, it says if you get caught in any lie or you give misinformation, you get whatever the sentence requires, you're going to get the maximum amount of time. So they make you plead guilty. Right. You're not sentenced. You're pleading guilty to a murder.

So you can get zero to life. Right. So you could end up ratting on everybody and still get in life. Yeah. Potentially, if you fuck up. If you fuck up or lie, right. Were you nervous? Like, were you like...

Well, I wasn't nervous at that point because there was no reason for me to lie. You know what I mean? Like I, when I made the decision, to cooperate, it was like I, if I was going to lie or I was going to go into this program and still be a criminal and still do stupid shit, I went into done. Right. Like I was done. Like, there was no reason for me to lie no more.

I didn't need to make anything up. They already knew, first of all, they knew everything anyway. Yeah. They just needed someone to cooperate. They knew everything anyway, the feds. Like, they told me shit, I forgot. Mm-hmm. You know?

Yeah. So. And that's where you found out a lot of your dad's murders. Yeah. And my brother-in-law, they told me, we didn't ever. realized how many murders your brolamo was in on until Peter Sikara started cooperating because they were partners. Right.

Yeah. So before you actually killed your brother-in-law, he had a lot of bodies on his own. Yes. Him and his partner, Peter Sikara, they were dangerous. So what did they, and did they want to know about your whole criminal history? Did they want to know about, did you have to tell them about other open investigations? I had to tell them about every crime I committed, every crime I committed with some people, every crime other people committed that I knew of.

They really wanted to know about murders, murders, which I knew a lot of shit about murders. They want to know about corrupt cops. Did you give them corrupt cops? I didn't really know anything. I knew of corrupt cops, but I never paid them off. They wanted me to give them murders, which I did. You know, I gave them murders with the Shamrock murders.

Charlie Carnegie murdered my friend Michael. I gave them, you know, I testified at six trials. Oh, wow. I testified at six trials, a lot of murders. This other guy, Johnny Burke, he committed a few murders. I testified at his trial. Where were you held while these in this process? Where did they stash you?

Like after you pled guilty? So when I first pled guilty, they took me to a safe house in Point Pleasant, New Jersey. It was very cold. I was on the ocean in the winter. So I couldn't. But they took me there first. My wife and my daughter was still in Comack and my son was in Howard B. beach. And then from from Point Pleasant, I went to Pennsylvania to the Poconos. They put me in a

safe house in the Poconos. While I was in that safe house, they moved my wife and my daughter to Michigan. Okay. And then they took me and they put me in Michigan. I went to Michigan. When I was in Michigan, I finally, I went into, that's when I got interviewed by the marshals and I got accepted in the witness protection program because I needed to change my name. And I went into, to the Witness Protection Program alone. Uh-huh. They took me from my house in Michigan to a secure location in D.C. From there, they sent me to Idaho.

That was this trip. Right. For my accent living in Idaho. Yeah, right. So now I'm living in Idaho. I loved it, but I was in this town called Cordillane, Idaho. I've been there. Oh, it's gorgeous, right?

It's gorgeous, right? Beautiful. The mountain lake. Totally. Beautiful. So I was living in Cordillane, Idaho. Yeah, a lot of people from California go there on vacation. For sure.

and I'm hanging out there. I made some good friends there. I started dating and a patching in the end. Wow. That I met at an AA meeting because I go to 12th step. Now I'm clean a lot of here, so I go to meetings, you know. I'm making this AA meetings out there because I go to Narcotics Anonymous, but there was none in this town in Cort Lane.

So I'm making meetings. I'm doing really good. I'm, you know, that... Are you working or did they just give you a pension? They pay your rent? So what they did was the Witness Protection Program, people talk bad about it, but I had a great experience. experiencing there. I mean, as soon as I got there, they bought me a car for 15,000 cash.

They bought me a Jeep taxpayer money. Yeah. They brought me a Jeep liberty. They got me new glasses. I got how to get, I was having trouble with my bridge. I had to get a new bridge. That cost $10,000. They got me a new bridge. I had health insurance. I had a beautiful apartment that they paid for. And they gave me $1,200 a month for my pocket. Yeah. So they were actually took care of you. Took care of everything. And the guy loved me because I had never gave me. He just told me I was the best guy on his caseload. Because I never gave him any problems. I didn't have any bad habits.

I was low-key. So bring us to the trial of Frankie's murder. Now that you're cooperating, it's essentially just you and the government versus Dominic. Skinny Dunn. The funny thing is Dominic didn't get found guilty for the murder. He got found guilty for everything else but the murder of my brother-in-law. Even though you testified against him?

Yep. And he was the trigger man. How did they find him not guilty? I have no idea to the trial. He got convicted of everything. He went to jail for 12 years for everything but the murder of the FBI were like up in arms. But he didn't get convicted. It was just, I don't know what happened.

The jury juries are crazy. You know, I testified at six trials, five, everybody got convicted of, I mean, five guilty. And the only trial that every, the guy beat all the charges were. Vinnie Ossarro on the Lutonza case, he found not guilty. And that was, I remember reading about that guy. He was an old man and they're perp walking him. I remember seeing in the news, they're walking this sad old man. He ain't that's it.

That was all an act. Right, right. But I felt bad for him because I'm like, and the jury felt bad for him too. That's what they let him go. He was a cold blood and murderer. I know. I probably would have voted not guilty.

Just because if you get away or that long. So anyway, Domit. And then I testified at a, at Charlie Coniglius trial. He was a serial killer. He was the guy that dissolved the guy that killed John Gotti's son that ran over John Gotti's son. He was the guy that dissolved the body. He got convicted for murders. He murdered a few people.

I testified at a test the right at that trial. So he's doing life? He's doing life. Then I testified at this guy, Johnny Burke's trial. He was, he killed a few people with Johnny A Light. Uh-huh. He got convicted of murder. He got life.

I testified at, um, this guy, Bobby Glass is his trial. He, Shamrock murders. they killed two innocent people in a bar. In a bar, he got convicted for the murders. He got life. And then I testified out, this guy, Cyril Peron's trial. He was a captain in the Genevice family.

He got convicted, not for any violence. He got convicted. He got a couple of years. So, but what is so fascinating is that the feds that have a 99% conviction rate at trial, here you are in testifying, somebody that was in, evolved in this murder, fingering on the stand, the trigger man, skinny Dom, and they find him

not guilty. Not only was I testified, one of the people that were on the boat. Yeah. Tommy Flash, my friend Tommy Flash, he was one of the guys that disposed of his body. He testified. Wow. And Dominic was on the boat with them. So Dominic shot him and went on the boat the next day.

Right. and the jury still found him guilty of everything, but that one particular murder. Wow. So what else? What did they find him guilty of? Oh, gambling, conspiracy. But see, this is what happened.

The judge Weinstein knew he married my brother-in-law. Yeah. So he got a big sentence regardless. He still got 18 years because the judge knew he committed that murder. And he didn't get convicted for the Uber murders either. And bosses testified, but the judge knew, see, the federal courts are different than state court. Even though the jury says not guilty, the judge has a discretion to use them crimes against you anyway. In sentencing.

Right. In sentencing. And that's what this judge did. So he got convicted for only bookmaking. Right. Right. But the judge gave him above the guidelines. Yeah.

Gave him 18 years. The judge gave him the most he could give him above the. So the bookmaking guidelines, the judge went above and beyond the guidelines because of the murders, even though he got found not guilty of the murders. If this judge could have gave him life, he would have gave him life anyway. Of course. Because the judge knew the deal. Because the judge knew the deal from when I pled guilty on my own, like they knew I was telling the truth. And the judge knew it.

The jury, I don't know what the fuck they were thinking. Where was the trial? It was in Brooklyn. Were there Italians on the jury? It was, you know what? It's funny you said that because when the jury got paneled, the lead agent, the case agent, Jerry, Jerry Conrad, he didn't like the jury from day one.

There was a lot of young guys in the jury like, I don't, you know, like, listen, there was one guy, kidding there had one of them stupid things in their ear, you know, them big. Gages? Yeah, gauges in his ear, you know, like, you could just look at them. And they came back with questions about, where's the forensics evidence? Yeah.

Like, you know, because they watch, they watch the stupid TV shows. But also, people are fucking sick of it. Yeah. People are sick of the overreach of the federal government. Just because you got four criminals,

like Sammy the Bull, he might be a great guy. He might be your friend. Yeah. But why does he get to kill 19 people? And then all he's got to do is say, yeah, he did it. And that's enough proof.

That's with the government. That's, that's, that's, but I'm saying so people, young people that are getting on the jury now, have had it. And they're like, there's no forensic evidence. There's no physical evidence. This was 20 years ago.

How about fuck you? It's like voting for Donald Trump. We don't agree with them. But it's a finger to the system. This is where it comes in where the plea agreement comes in. If I lied, the feds knew I lied, I get life. Yeah. So now if I say you, Johnny, killed him.

Mm-hmm. And I'm lying. I'm going to get life. Right. But the jury still probably looks at you as a criminal and it's doing whatever you can. And the jury's not believing in the plea, because the plea agreement is read to the jury. They know about the plea agreement. Right. Like the government makes sure they know about the plea agreement.

And you're right. People that murder people shouldn't get, you know, we got to get out of jail card free. Yeah. Like in Monopoly. I mean, you know, listen, it's not fair, but that's the government. That's what they do. I mean, you know, and I'm just, yeah, a guy like skinny don't. you shouldn't be on the streets,

but the government doesn't play fair either. Of course not. I don't know where to like... No, then you're right. Listen, they have all the... That's why they're the mafia. Yeah. The government, my father said,

your dad was right. Your dad was right. Listen, you're 100% right. Sammy killed 19 people. He's free. I killed my bro. I'm free. Yeah.

I got no time. I got time served. But you know what? The judge, Weinstein, if you, I don't know if you ever could read it, read it.

When I finally did get sentenced, when I finally really did get sentenced, did get when I when my sentencing day came in 2014 I got sentenced right um I could I don't know what I was going to get you know I could have went to jail I couldn't got you know like I I I'm free a lot of years I'm free I'm free nine years I'm testifying at trials right now the judge says it's time for me to get sentenced the government didn't want me to get sentenced the government didn't want me to get sentenced to after I was done testifying right they still had cases pending but the judge said they put a motion for the judge not to sentence me yet but he said no i want to get now

i thought right away maybe this guy's going to put me in jail right so they were worried the government because they didn't want me in jail so now it comes the day of my sentencing i go to new york i fly to new york and they have a victim impact statements so my bro-ma frankie's sister takes the stand and i should get life you know they killed my brother my niece takes this now my niece wasn't was a baby when she Frankie's daughter right my niece she takes this goes up this she says to the judge that I should get life right now the judge sentences me and he makes a statement and he tells the family the victims right he says he looks at me and he goes this man didn't murder this man's not to blame for this murder the mafia is to blame for this murder he was an

I was from birth. Yeah. And he makes this very like speech, like about how the mafia, you know, created this person. And if he puts me in jail, I'm a tool now to bring this mafia to an end so things like this don't happen. And he was very artistic. Articulate. Articulate in how he worded it.

And he gave me no time. Yeah. He gave me five years supervised release. Yeah. I think that's fair. You know, I mean. I'm sure they, you know, were obviously furious and devastated. Yeah, of course they were.

You know, but, but I mean. Does your niece know who her father really was, though? No, my niece, well, she never, she don't remember him. No, she doesn't know. But does she hear stories about what a murder and scumbaggy was? My sister, no, they, they don't, you know, we don't talk to her about him. I mean, you know, I, you know, I feel terrible for her. You know what I mean?

Like, I feel terrible. I even feel bad talking about it. But, you know, it's something that I have to talk. about, you know. Have you, have you made a resolution with them at all? I, I speak to my sister. I, you know, I, I, when, when, so when, when, when I decided to cooperate, I told the feds, I'm not going to, you have to take me to see my mother and my sister, because I wanted to give them closure. So I went, they took me to my, the day I left to go to, uh, Point Pleasant, they took me to my mother's house. So my sister was outside. So I told, I hugged her and I told her and she started screaming.

screaming at me. How could you do that? How could you do that? And she ran away. And I went upstairs to my mother's house. And my mother's in the kitchen. And I told my mother, you know, and my mother, she just, like, looked at me and she looked at me and she went to me, she shook her in and she went, I can't believe he made you do things like that. She told me. She understood. Yeah. She goes, I can't believe that he made you do things like that. Like my father made me do stuff like that. She goes, I don't know how he could do that. I don't know how he can make you do things like that. Wow, she really got it.

Yeah. Even, you know, she was so loyal to your father, loved him until the day he died, but she knew that he really groomed you to kind of be a killer or enabled you. Yeah. Yeah, that's what she said. She was, I can't believe he made you do things like that. I can't believe it either, but, you know, that's what happened, you know. And then I left and then I left.

I mean, I didn't speak to my sister for a lot of years. We talk now, but, you know, listen, I did a horrible thing, you know, I, you know, and I wish I could go back and, you know, not do it, but it's done, you know, what am I going to do? You know, like, and, you know, it's funny because when we did it, I didn't even give a shit. Like, I didn't even fucking phase me, you know, back then. Like, my, my, my, my, my, my thinking process and was so non-existent back then. Like, I was so wrapped up in that life. Yeah.

Like, it was just didn't even bother me. Like, it was business. Yeah. Business as usual. You know, like I went, you know, I went, you know, I drove around with. this poor kid's father looking for him. When I knew that, you know, he's gone. Yeah.

You know, it just didn't fit. Like, I went out, you know, when I think of it, like, I went out with dinner with guys that I knew they were going to die that weekend. Like, we had dinner and laughed and joked. And I knew, like, that was it. Like, you know, it's just the crazy lifestyle. And I think that's what people are. I think that's why with all this stuff going on now on the YouTube and the shows,

it's just so unique, like, people that lived that life. It's a unique lifestyle. And it interests pokes people's interest. For sure. Because not everybody could live that way. No, it's a subculture that's rapidly going away. So I think guys like you, it's good that you are able to share this with everybody before it's gone, before it's extinct. So we really appreciate you coming on here.

You stick around. Let's do like a half an hour on Patreon because there's some questions that I want to ask you, some follow-up questions. but go Reform Gangsters. Yes, reformgangsters.com, my YouTube, subscribe. That's right. And become a Patreon member. That's right. And what do you do on there?

You're doing mob history. I'm doing mob history. My life history. I'm doing recovery stuff. I'm having guests on. It's a lot of stuff. I put out a free video every Friday. Yeah.

But I put it out on Patreon. You could become a member or on Friday. Just become a subscriber to my YouTube channel. I put it out. And I talk about my life. I talk about stories. I talk about things. I did things other people did.

I go live every once in a while. I talk a lot about recovery. You know, tomorrow, January 12th, I'll be personally clean and sober. 35 years tomorrow is my sobriety date. So that's a big accomplishment. So I talk about that. And, you know, I sell some merchandise on there. Yeah.

And I checked out a couple of videos. It's very good content. Thank you. The guests are fascinating, obviously. So go over there. And then, of course, watch Get Gotti. without a doubt. I mean, you're just so handsome on there and your teeth are shiny white.

And it's just... Yeah, they did good lighting. They had good lighting. You killed it. It was tremendous. So thank you for schlepping all the way out here from Florida. I love L.A. Yeah, yeah.

You're welcome back anytime. Thank you. And thank you so much, you guys. We'll see you over on Patreon. Anthony Ruggiano Jr. Thank you so much, brother. Thank you.