The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Hitman For Bonnano Crime Family Exposes The Most Violent Mafia Crews In New York City | The Connect

Episode Date: February 3, 2024

Gene Borrello was part of the last generation of NYC’s wild wise guys. He joined the Bonnano Crime Family at a young age and quickly got close with the family’s boss. His reputation of violence and brutality made him a name that everyone in the city feared. After being indicted on RICO charges he eventually flipped on his former crime associates and entered witness protection. He’s here to tell us all about the final days of the mob as the world knew it! Go Follow Gene! IG: https://www.instagram.com/geneborrello/ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcEOVWzV1YqvHd0vn94aeFLJrLgntzqP Book: https://www.amazon.com/Born-LIfe-Borrello-Ex-Bonanno-Enforcer/dp/1667805576 This Episode Is Brought To You By The Following Sponsor: RocketMoney! Visit https://www.rocketmoney.com/connect and stop wasting your money TODAY! Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're driving on the highway. I'm in a silver Audi, a two-door CLK pulls up next to us. Lights up the car, eight shots, puts right into the car at us. What ends up happening is I go to Allen them. The Gambino guys that I think I'm going to be with because I'm in the middle. I'm not sure who I'm going to go with. I says, I'm killing this kid. He's dead.

Oh, no, no, no, we're not going to do that as far as a wise guy with the Gambinos. We don't know if it's him. They won't take my back. I went to the bananas. Ronnie G in them. He says, do what you got to do. We got your back completely. He goes, whatever you got to do, you get him.

that ultimately determined, all right, these are the guys going to take my back. What's up, everybody? Today's guest is Gene Borrello. He made his bones in Brooklyn in the mid-2000s with the Banana family. He's one of these new generation mob guys. Gene's a gangster. He's one of those knock-around street mafia guys. He was one of the most feared and respected dudes from the Bonanos during his era in Ozone Park at Howard Beach, Queens.

This guy's got stories for days. He did real time on Rikers. in the feds he eventually flipped and started a podcast with john a light he's telling all the crazy mafia inside stories we wanted to talk to a modern mafia type on this show and nobody is better at it than jean we do some bonus content as well you got to hear it go over to the patreon patreon patreon dot com slash the connect show and go buy his book without further ado i give you jean borello right here on the connect with johnny mitchell i put 30 shots into his house i came back two weeks later I did it again.

I came back two weeks later. I said, all those cars on fire. I wouldn't stop. All of a sudden, we get sent for by guys in Middle Village. They go, oh, we're here to squash the beef. They said there's no squash in it. We were cowboys. That's when I see the lights behind me start to flash.

And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on. And then I parked the car, popped out, closed the door, and I started running. And he pulls out a burner, shank. It's like six inches. And he passes it to me.

And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. is the reason I made it out of that place alive. Are your family, do you have darker? No, I'm a Sicilian. Okay, but it seems like you're darker than your cousin. Well, I go tanning. You really are Sicilian, my brother.

Yeah, man. Well, thanks for coming on. We've never had somebody connected to the bananas. Right. We've had Gambino, we've had Colombo. Who'd you have from the Columbus? Well, we had Sal Polisi, who, you know. Oh, he's part of every family.

Exactly. He was just a hustler that used to kick upstairs to whoever. you know, had their hand in his pocket. He wasn't really like, yeah. But that's what I mean. Like it's, it's you, a lot of people claim to be with different crews. Nobody really knows. Right. Unless you're actually made or. Not even. That's not true. Or with a family that's made, right? Like, like Anthony Ruggiana. Right. You know, so you can't be an associate of three different families. It's impossible. Who's going to sit for you? We're going to pick one. It don't work like that. So when you have, when you're, when you're on record with a family,

so for instance, I got put on record with the banana family. Ronnie G. has to take me to his captain and go, this is Gene Borrello. He's with me. I meet the skipper, shake his hand. Now I'm in their crew. You can't say, you can't do that with three different families or two different families. It's not allowed. It's a mafia illegal.

So you could just say you're friends with these families, but you're not on record with them. And what does on record actually do for you? Oh, it does a lot. So basically they're putting you on record because they believe you have a chance in this life. That's first off. And you're working your way up to be a member. You understand? So now you're on record with a crew.

Now you've got to prove yourself to this crew Like I did, violence, earning money, doing your thing And then you get proposed And when you get proposed, your name goes on a list It goes around If other families got beefs with you They'll say, oh, okay, well listen, clear this up You owe $20,000 to the Gambinos

We can't straighten you out till you clear it up Or there's things that go around Oh, he did this to so and so You gotta clear these beefs up first Otherwise you get blocked. What is getting blocked? Blocked needs you don't get straightened out Something you work for for fucking 10, 15 years

Can now get blocked over something an issue. Now, is in this day and age is getting made, is getting straightened out even worth it? You know, Michael Franchise says, my guys, none of them got straightened out, but they all made millions. Right. Well, he didn't want to straighten nobody out because he, like he said, he was being a, how can I say it, a guy that didn't want his guys to prosper. He wanted them to stand to him. You know, I know people like that. Because now, if you get made, you're your own man now. You got a report to a skipper. And then eventually, you know, you have your crew now. You know what I'm saying? So he wanted to keep them under his thumb.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So if your cousin is Anthony Ruggiano, Jr., of the Gambino family, right, why did you end up going with the Bananos? It seems like you'd be a shoe-in with the Gambino's. Oh, I was. So I was originally supposed to go without Trukios crew. I'll explain who that is.

That's Ronnie One Arm. Ronnie Onom was a very dangerous feared captain in the Gambino family. And his son Al, Mikey Rock, Frankie Rock, Hootie, the whole crew. I was supposed to be with the Gambino guys, ozone park guys. But what happened was I was running around with guns. I was running around wild. Al didn't like that.

His father was already away. His father liked that. He wasn't like his dad. He was all this. So I was best friends at Ronnie G. Alonzo's nephew, Bobby G. Alonzo. Me and him were doing a lot of fucking wild shit together. They're banana.

So what happened was I got into a beef for the guy named Phil Galena. Phil Galena's father was a made guy in the Gambinos, but he got deported from the pizza connection. But they're millionaires, multi-millionaires. We didn't like the son. He was like a fake tough guy running around the neighborhood. So me and Chris Kagan, Nata, one of the toughest kids in the five boroughs, worst kid around.

He's dead now. I end up shooting him later on. But me and him are close at the time. And we bump into Phil Galena by ragtime. We start with him. We crack a bottle over his head. Beat him up, crack a bottle over his head. So we think nothing of it.

Three weeks later, we're in a nightclub in Astoria, and we see Phil Galena walk in with two guys. We're not thinking of anything. We're like, out of his jerk off. He ain't going to do none. So he's standing there. Little do we know he's ID in us to these two guys. Now I'm there with me, Frankie Rock, Godless the Soul, my buddy, Joe Degange, Berger, Krakka. So Frankie Rock leaves.

That was our ride. We hop in a car with Joe Deggangi. So when we leave, we don't realize they follow us out. Now, here's a deal. We find out he put $10,000 on the head to kill me. And Chris gets crazy. So now we're on the highway. This is August 2005.

I never forget things like this. We're driving on the highway. I'm in a silver Audi. So it's Berger sitting here. sitting here, Crocker and my friend Billy Dublin. And Chris in the front and Joe, we were packed in because Frankie Rock left the other car. A two-door CLK,

two-door black Mercedes-C-LK pulls up next to us, lights up the car, eight shots, puts right into the car at us. Now I'm looking at the fire. And I go, Berger, we just get shot at? He goes, yeah, my friend's holding his throat. He gets hit through the neck. My friend Danny Croft, my friend Billy Dublin gets hit in the back. So the Albanians just took the money and did the hit totally wrong.

They just shot into a car and says, well, we hit, we hit. We just taking the money. Right. So long story short, I know it's that motherfucker who did it. Me and Chris, you didn't get the, at the time, me and Chris are probably the two worst kids in the area, along with Bobby Gee. By the way, what turf you're in Queens? Howard Beach O's on Park. And that's where you were born and raised?

Yes. Okay. So while I was born in Canarsie, Brooklyn and moved over there when I was like nine years old. So what ends up happening is I go to Allen them, the Gambino guys that I'm thinking I'm going to be with because I'm in the middle. I'm not sure who I'm going to go with. I says, I'm killing this kid. He's dead. Oh, no, no, no.

we're not going to do that as far as a wise guy with the Gambinos. We don't know if it's him. I says, I'm killing him. I mean, he's dead. Like, there's no negotiating. I'm putting stolen camper vans in front of his house. We're camp out in the fucking car. We're ready to kill this kid.

They won't take my back. I says like this. Fuck you guys. I went to the bananas. Ronnie G. and them. He says, do what you got to do. We got your back completely. He goes, wherever you got to do, you get him.

That ultimately determined, all right, these are the guys are going to take my back. These motherfuckers are just trying to kill me and my friends. You're telling me not to retaliate because his fall as a wise guy. So he went against the grain. We did beat him up and cracked the bottle. He tried to take our lives. Shot an innocent person to his neck. And two innocent people got shot.

He's got to die. Yeah. And he's not a big guy anyway. Phil Gleana wasn't a made guy. His father was. His father was deported, though. So what ends up happening is, he took off to Italy. Now he knows he's trying to kill him.

He takes off to Italy. So he goes, you know why? He did a gang member move. Now you do a gang member move. I said, okay. He goes, go spray his house up. I went to the house. I pulled up with a tech nine.

I put 30 bullets into his house with everybody in it. Okay. So this really is, this goes against the grain of the Italian mafia because they don't operate like that. They don't. Pulling up, dumping indiscriminately. That's some gangster shit.

We did that because what he did. They want to play dirty. You play dirty now because they did scumbag shit. How you operate when you're going to kill somebody, you wait for him to come out the house. You get that person. You don't shoot into a random car with innocent working people in it. Now you're looking to kill innocent people.

But why does it? retaliating the same way. Show them that we can do the same fucking thing. You're not going to just think you're going to fucking shoot us and people do nothing and hide from us now. We can't get you. So now we're going to lure you back middally. Now we're going to make you want to come back.

I put 30 shots into his house. I came back two weeks later. I did it again. I came back two weeks later. I said, all those cars on fire. I wouldn't stop. Finally, we tried to get his brother. I tried to shoot his brother with a shotgun.

Couldn't get him running for their lives. Getting them. All of a sudden, we get sent for by guys in Middle Village. they go, oh, we're here to squash the beef. They said there's no squash in it. There's no squash in it. Ronnie Gina told him, there's no squash in it. And he said, people are shot.

You tell him it's on site. We don't want to hear nothing. It was basically just like that. So he moved. They sold their house and left. Wow. They left. Is that how it resolved itself?

No, and they were resolved. I ended up, we ended up, at that time, why Phil got lucky? Because we were going to continue to try to kill him. We started beefing with Chris Kegnaut, our own guy. He robbed Pudgy. And then we got sent to get him. So we end up going from him. to now determine, all right, you got to get this kid right now.

We'll get him later. So this is really moving a long ways from like the core values of the mafia, the mob, the wise guys, right? Which is earning organization, top down, taking orders and following them. Right. Nobody gets touched unless the boss gives the nod. We were cowboys. Yes, it sounds like it.

So after this, were you, did you rain in a little bit now that you were with the bananas? Yeah. Oh, no. Well, they were wild. So Ronnie had me doing wild shit. So, like, now he sends me to go shoot Chris. He's like, well, I want this kid dealt with. So now I want Chris.

I end up shooting Chris in broad daylight. Did you kill him? No, I shot him and hit me with a car. His girlfriend hit me with a car. Wow. Yeah, it was wild. This is like, you know, it was getting crazy. Okay.

And then he comes back and shoots my house up. Oh, my goodness. This is like a war zone we were having. So this is like the mid-2000s? 2005, 2006. It was still chaotic. The mob was still crazy. That's right.

That's why I tell people were the last hurrah. We were crazy still. Right, right. Today's episode is sponsored by Rocket Money. Can you guys look me in the face and tell me how many subscriptions you have between all the streaming services and the different apps, how many different subscriptions you're paying for every month? I couldn't until I started using Rocket Money.

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We were wild, bro. So what was your big earner? Now that you got with the crew, with the bananas, what was your big earning? Shylocking and legal sports ban and extorting and robbing drug deals. That was our thing. Okay. All right. So let's start with Shylocking.

Right. This is loan sharking. Loan sharking, yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. What kind of bank did you start? with. Well, we didn't need to. We had the fucking, we had Fort Knox, Ronnie G. That was the best bank you could have. Guys, millions of dollars. Right. So what Ronnie did, Ronnie loved that. I was wild. Ronnie likes bad guys. He loved that me and his nephew were like violent. He loved that. So

he loved bragging about us. So anything we needed, he gave us to make money. Not give us free money. He'd be like, all right, I'm going to give his money at one point. Now you understand that. One point needs $10. So if you need $10,000, I'm going to charge you 300 a week. I got a hundred bucks a week to him. So we're actually making more money on it than him, but he got millions in the street. Right. You know what I'm saying? So let's say he got 10 guys about 100,000 out. He's getting 10,000 a week. Passive.

Yeah. Passive income. Now, what kind of people are borrowing in 2006 from a loan sharker? Everybody. Really? I've had regular people die. People you would never think would borrow money, borrow money. Well, what's a good example?

Stockbrokers, lawyers, people that just go under. You know, maybe they lost their job. Listen, you know, I need money for this much. I could afford this every week. I had construction workers, you name it. You know, degenerate gamblers. drug addicts, you know. Yeah.

And what was your height? What was, did you have success in that? 240,000 when I had at one shot. That was the most I had out. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And what kind of security?

Do you take collateral at all? No, we don't do collateral. Our collateral is you don't pay us, we're going to hurt you. Did you ever have to do that? Absolutely. Wow. Yeah, absolutely. All the time.

Did any of them run to the feds or the cops? You see, I know you, are you from? Where are you from? Where you from? What area? Portland, Oregon. All right. Not a lot of loan shark can go on.

So look, you see, like, the average person would say we go to the cops where we're from, they don't want to do that. They want to just be in the Howard Beach, Elson Park and not be known as a rat. So if you go to the cops, your whole family, all your scumbed, your son. So it's like, and how we do, do Shylock, and he's like, if you come to me and borrow money and I don't know you and the guy that brought you to me, he's vowsing for you. So if you run, he's, we're going to see him. So that's the way that you kind of protect yourselves from people run it off.

If we don't know you. Right. you lend to hopefully Italians or people from the neighborhood, deep queens and Brooklyn, that understand what it is, the culture. We had guys run. You know, don't get me wrong,

but it's good when someone vouches you because we just knock at their door. You vouch for this guy $10,000, you'll be seeing us every week. So that was profitable. You ended up winning on that racket. Oh, Sherlock is the best business in the world. You can't go wrong,

especially when you're a gangster. And do you think that will continue, even though technology is taking out a lot of the mob businesses? It will never stop. Yeah. It'll never stop. That's the mafia's bread and butter and illegal sports ban.

That'll never stop. Even because they made these websites, remember what we do differently. When you got to bet online, you got to give them cash right there, right? Not with us. You get credit. That's right. That's right. That's a great deal.

It'll never stop. It's always better when you got that weak credit. Like, oh, shit, I got a $10,000 limit. Then you gain, oh, I got to put $10,000 up. It's like, wow, I could just win this money without putting nothing up. It's the catch, you know? Now, how did you market yourself, your loan sharking and your sports betting? Like, how did you?

Well, people come to you. They start knowing you're a mob guy now and they know what that's what the mob does. You know what I'm saying? All right. Gene, I need to borrow money. How much you need? 5,000. Oh, this guy, 3,000.

You know, and it's it. You start accumulating a list. Yeah, and you're just in the street. You're driving a nice car. You look like a gangster. But you're responsible for this money. Of course. I'm taking this money out with Ronnie.

These guys run, I got a turn in the money every week no matter what. He don't want to fucking hear it. Like, that's it. You're responsible for what you take. You got to remember that. It's not like, oh, oh, he took off. Don't worry. you're good on that. It don't work like that.

You're turning in $3,000 a week and if everybody leaves, you still got to pay the $3,000 a week. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, so it's a lot of responsibility. Absolent stress. Yeah, it's a lot of stress too when you're working for serious guys like Vinnie and Ronnie that don't tolerate bullshit. So at that time, 2006, what was the situation with the families? Who was the boss of the bananas at the time? See, we were in disarray, but what happened was Joe Messino just flipped in all five. So people were looking down upon us. That was the fucking, you know, that was embarrassing.

So we had a lot to prove. You know what I mean? Joe Massino just went bad. Vinnie Gorgeous was actually the boss of the family, but he was in jail. He was about to go to trial. We knew he was getting life. And then you had acting bosses that were trying to fill in.

So it really wasn't a boss. It was more like they were looking to see who could control the family. You might have a conigalier doing it. Three captains. They just didn't know. We didn't get an official boss until 2011. Wow. So that's probably why they allowed all this shoot-em-up cowboy shit.

No, not really because the bananas are always known like that. The banana family was always known as a wild judge. murder family. Was at, at, at, by this time, have the neighborhoods now kind of just blended in? Because back in the day, right, the 60s, 70s, 80s, each family kind of ran in a different part of the boroughs. But by 2006, technology is on its way to dominating everything. I'll explain it.

So Howard Beach and Ozone Park was Gambino Bonato. That's basically what you got over there forever. It fluctuates because what the feds do is they'll do a big indictment on the Gambinos. them all out. Now, all the bananas are there. Then they'll come. And then when they're coming home, the Gambino's, we're all going away. So it just keeps taking turns, Gambino Banana.

It's like trying to get rid of Roches. They'll be bad. In 2013, we were strong. We had the whole structure. We had like 60 guys in Howard Beach of Banana Guys. We were running the whole shit. We were strong in Howard Beach. And then they just crippled us, took everybody out.

What about the Bronx? Who's operating up there still? See, the Bronx is mixed with the five families. That's the only borough I could say that all the families are in it. Literally. Not big portions, but they're all in it. Yeah, they got to have wise guys up there still. They do, tons of them.

But it's like mixture. Like you see Howard Beach Queens and Ozone Park was just really banana Gambino. Now why, you know, Spanish Harlem, like the 120s forever, that was Fat Tony? Yes. Like why? There's so much money up in the ghetto still. Why have the wise guys not tried to get a, you know, muscle back in on that action? I can't say.

I don't know. See, the West Side is very secretive, the Genevice family. They're very secretive. Okay, tell me about that. Genevice family runs very organized. They're nonviolent family. They're ran by very, they just had smart bosses. You know, their rules are much different than other families.

Like, if you're a captain and I'm a captain, we can't tell each other on our business. Other families, they all talk to each other, tell each other. Genevese family operate very differently. To get strained out with a Genevice family, takes 10 years to be on record with a wise guy to even be thought of. Wow. To even be thought of. It's not like other families. Three years.

Oh, he's a good friend of mine. Put him in. Westside is very strict. Now, do you think that's probably a better way to run it? Absolutely. They run it, you know, they run it very well. But here's the thing. They're very business. They're not violent.

Like, you know what I mean? So a lot of guys say, oh, they're softies. You know what I mean? But they're very smart. See, for the street guys, we look down upon the guys that aren't how we are. You understand? We look at like the thug. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, we look it down upon like the money makers. But I think they probably look down on the street guys. Right. It's vice versa. But always when you're with the real tough guys, you're like, I just jerk off. He's a fucking. He pays his way.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know, that's how we talk. But don't you feel like the white collar guys in the families use the street guys? They have to. The muscle guys. Well, think about how you're going to collect your money? Of course.

But it's like you guys are the ones that go to prison. Right. Well, always the ones that go to prison. And we're always the ones facing the shit lot of time. So did you have ambitions to move on from the gangster shit? No. You didn't. No, I was a full-blown lunatic.

And Ronnie was even worse. So us together was just horrible. What kind of upbringing did you have? Wild. You know, my mom was a good, we had a good family. It's just that my dad was crazy too, but he wasn't a gangster.

He did a lot of time. Over what? Um, Robly shooting the same shit. You know, he was a nut. He came home, did prison time and then he went into construction.

He was a good, you know, working man, but, you know, him, my mom got divorced young. And he moved to Canada, you know, so I got raised by my mom

and my stepdad, but I was just a bad kid. I don't lie. It's not like, they tried to do good. I was just bad. That's just what it was. You know what I mean?

it's not like no one's fault. It was just me. Yeah. So you're really like, you're living that life. You're a young man in your early 20s. Right. You probably getting a lot of respect. Absolutely fear.

People are terrified of us. Yeah. You know, I carry a gun like out of permit. Yeah. And you were ripping off. You were hitting drug houses. Oh my God. We were armed them, tying them up.

They'd know when they were scared to meet us. We were fucking terrorizing them. You're like jacking like black dudes or all they're Italian. Listen, it depends. If you're in our area, we're going to go fuck with your orange. and you're in Harry Beach Ozone Park, we're going to get you. You're going to pay or something. Well, were they, yeah, I was going to ask about that extortion.

Did you have people paying you? Well, here's the thing with that. So we can do extorting drug dealers, but it's almost like a Ponzi scheme I was telling somebody. We really can't do that, but we do it. So like, let's say, for instance, you're a drug dealer and you come to me for protection. I'm like, yeah, I got you. But then when you have a beef for the gangster, we can't sit for you. So it's almost like you're paying me for no reason.

Yeah, it's a bad deal. It's a bad deal. It's like you're not going to get no protection because we can't protect drugs. What we do do, and I'm taught by Vinny, he goes, if you're still on a drug dealer and they got a beef, lie, say it's loan shock money. And now I will go to the table and say, he's lying. You know, it's loan shock money. Ain't no drug dealer, you know, the bullshit. That's how you get around it.

It's funny because half of the mob's rackets really do serve a function in the marketplace, right? Right. This guy, he's under on his plumbing business and the interest rate is way too high in the legal market. And so he goes to a street guy and maybe it saves his business. you're able to just give him money. Right. Gambling serves a need. But then other rackets like extortion, that just seems bad.

That just doesn't seem like it helps anybody. See, that's like movie stuff. Extortion, what do you define? Like, what do you mean? You think it's like the 60, a 40s where you're going to a restaurant and go, you got to pay me. Right. That's not how it goes.

What happens is they're in neighborhoods and they act for protection a lot of time. Maybe things is going wrong in the area. They're getting nervous. People are fucking with them. They want to feel safe. Oh, I'm with this guy. Here, here's money. Don't worry about it.

Just tell everybody I'm with you. We've had that 100 times. We're not extorting you. You're basically, but now basically you have any problems. They'll put a guy by your store. Get the fuck out of here. This is our place. And then, you know, people are scared of them off here.

So that's really what it comes down to. But the feds will turn that into extortion. Right, right. You know what I mean? That's how they break that down. Do you think the people, the residents of Howard Beach and Ozone Park, the middle village, these are deep, obscured. You know, middle village.

I do. I love New York. I'm fascinated by the Brooklyn. Rurows. Right. Do you think the civilians, huh? Not the connected people.

You think they still love you guys. I don't know about now, but I know growing up, you know, they came to us for all the problems. You know, they really didn't call cops. They called us.

Gene is his kid stealing stuff. I remember one time there was a guy with a center puncher going around breaking into everybody's car and everybody's flipping out. And they've told the gangers like, oh, they're fucking robbers.

They said, don't why we're going to get this little motherfucker so we were going to patrol, looking for him. We got him, put him in a trunk, stripped him naked, you know,

drove around with him, tortured him for a little while. And he says, next time you put a center punch and we're going to fucking kill you. And that's it. He never did it again. Never did it again.

And the neighborhood feels happy. Look, they protect us. That's very Sicilian. Like, you could trace that back. That's like village justice that I think is really ingrained in Italian culture.

Don't get me wrong. There is some people that don't like this. You know, they will. Giuliani. Oh, yeah. And his father was a bootlegger. Figure that out. Right.

Now he's under a indictment. Now he's under his own law. Rico. Right. You know? He's being charged with it. Speaking of the old country Yeah

I feel like there's now in this day and age starting to be a lot more crossover a lot more communication with people with Naples and Palermo and the gangsters

in America do you think that's true? Yes but I'm going to tell you why so Italy was flipping out when the bosses started ratting Which over there? Or New York They were like

They were ready to come down and take shit over Like what the fuck is going on Right You got bosses cooperating What's going on? We're ready to take your shit over. You know what I mean? Like, that's what happened.

They're still extremely vicious. Yeah. And they operate a little different because they kind of operate like cartels a little bit. Yeah. We don't Americanize mafia. If I got beef with you, I'm not shooting your kid or your fucking wife. Yeah. They're doing that out there.

Right. And they're running openly trafficking drugs as part of their main business now. And people. We don't operate like that. See, Sicilian mafia and them, they operate like terrorists a little bit. That's why we really don't fuck with them. But now that you guys seem like you need recruits. I could be wrong about this, but it seems like you guys need numbers.

And so you're hearing and reading about more people getting recruited to be soldiers from the other side and brought over to New York. They're still wild like Canada. They're still killing each other. But Canada got no RICO law. So, you see, that's what helps them. If they had the RICO, they wouldn't be doing that shit. When you shoot a guy in the league, get 30 years. You know what I mean?

It's a lot different over than the RICO when you start doing getting RICO action. But they're still killing each other out there in Canada. That's a Sicilian fraction out there. But we have a bananas have a big fraction out there. They're still wild as fuck. They're still, you know, very dangerous. Memorial Day weekend is almost here, and it's time to kick off summer right.

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Your Memorial Day, easy. Shop total wine and more in store or online. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly must be 21. Did, uh, so now we're moving on in time. You're, you got stripes, you got some money, you got a couple of brackets. Right. When did you take your first pinch? Oh, I've been getting locked up since I'm 15. Okay. Well, when you first went on record with the bananas. Oh, I'm shooting at a bar over my dad. That was just, a pitch that I took, yeah. What happened?

I got four years. They jumped my dad at a bar. I went there and lit the place up. Yeah, and I got four years for that. Wow. Yeah. Where'd you go? I was in Rikers Island,

then I went up north to Groveland and Green. I was all over. I did it three to six. How was that? It was wild. Rikazan was fucking nuts. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in Rikazound at 18 from 18 to the end of 19.

I did like 18 months for a brick of Coke. Oh. You know, yeah. My grandfather was my co-defendant. Really? Yeah. You guys were pushing product. Yeah.

Merchandise together. Yeah. Who's your grandfather? My grandfather was with my uncle Andy. He was associate in his crew. I like this guy. Frank Garrow. Grandfather.

I played golf with my grandfather. You moved chickens. He ended up dying in prison, you know? Wow. Yeah, he was a cool guy, man. He taught me a lot. What, uh, so he was giving it to you and you were moving it? No.

It was just, see, we were always, he was always teaching me the way because he knew I was getting involved. But like, um, what had it happened once he was talking to me. He goes, oh, my friend Danny Marcher wants a brick of Coke. I says, well, how much you should get? it for because I got I get a good price he goes this much he said well I'll get a few for cheaper so I got it from it was a fucking sting operation his friend was setting him up yeah so I just got caught up in it man my grandpa was writing the judge like listen please spend my grandson I made him bring him along and they did he took the time did that wow did that uh wow did that uh turn you off from drug dealing after you got out I got I'm trying I'm trying to fucking hearing about it you know the people like what are you doing selling drugs that you know the bullshit and I'm like oh you know I had to talk my way out of it but you know they weren't happy with it you know when you went up did you Were there other Italians that you rolled with? Absolutely. Okay.

Yeah, I met a bunch. I met one of my closest friends, Frankie Pasqua. Wow. Fucking nut from Staten Island. We had a ball together, me and him. Who, and there's tons of wise guys on Staten Island. Yeah, oh, yeah. Who's over there?

A lot of Lukazi family. Lukazi Banana. A lot of Lukazi Banana Gambino over there. That's very nice suburban. It feels like when you get money as a wise guy, you get a piece of land. Oh, Howard Beach. Howard Beach is beautiful. That's true.

It's on the water. Howard Beach is a million dollar houses. If you look at that neighborhood, you never think there's no shootings and crime over here. Right. I'm saying? There is. Well, what us? Yeah, yeah.

You know? Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Did, uh, so, because we don't know anything about Italians in West Coast prisons, right? You're either, uh, you're either, uh, Serrano, not tanio, black or one of the white factions. They don't really like us in those prisons. You know, I know, I know, I know, I know a lot of guys that went to Victorville and, you know, they were going to fucking with the Italians.

You know what I mean? Right. Well, they don't act crazy in prison usually. That's the difference. Right. At least historically. Well, Did you act crazy in prison?

There's some wild ones. You go in the state, those mob guys, they're putting working. Oh, interesting. Oh, yeah, they're stabbing shit. Did you have to put him work? Absolutely. I did a favor for Al Trucchio. I cut me and Frankie cut this guy, beat him.

This guy, Sal Gialondo. He came into Groveland. He was running his mouth about, he thought we were like little jerkoffs. Like, we weren't really affiliated. So he's throwing names around. He's talking bad about this guy, that guy. And I'm sitting listening. And meanwhile, I'm a real guy.

I'm really around people. Frankie's father's a captain. So he thinks like, we're just like, so I'm listening. I'm going, so Frankie, he's talking about all these, my friends. I know these guys. I'm going to call up a checkup on this motherfucker. I call up and checked up on me. He's no good.

I says, oh, don't worry. I got that. I says, because we don't like him already. We laud him outside. Frankie goes, I'm cutting him. I says, all right, all right, all right. So I cracked him. Frankie cut his face.

We beat him up and that was it. Yeah. You never had to do a whole time? Oh, I did tons of whole time. Yeah. I just came home from the hole for Sam Bakeman free. That fucking guy. Can you tell us?

So you just got out? I just got out September. I did 80 days in the hole for that motherfucker. Damn. Yeah, I beat some kid up from some guy was trying to get $1,000 out of him. I beat him up. Oh, trying to extort him. Yeah, well, friendly extort him.

Yeah. And I ended up beating the kid up. Wow. So what you just got home? On a parole violation. Oh, how long did you do? Eight months. Oh.

Yeah. Yeah, that's wild. You do have like I just got out of prison energy. Yeah. Well, I always have this energy. What did you want? You know, you obviously had some time to think in there. What did you want to do when you came home?

Well, I had so many plans. I just kept getting delayed with all these fucking parole violations. I mean, I had the book going into a, you basically going to a TV show. I had a bestseller. You know, the podcast thing was taken off. You know, I was rocking and rolling. Bro, I'll be honest you, my Instagram, my DMs,

I sell so many autographed copy books off that thing. People love my book, you know? So I was doing all right. So when going back to when you first did your stretch in state prison, your three to six, That's my second bid. Oh, okay, okay. I did 18 months, 3 to 6, and then I went in again years later.

What were you thinking like, you know, as you're getting older, you're moving up, getting close to your 30s, like, what did you say, I got to switch something up? So what happened was this. The problem was me, Ronnie, went away at the same time. He went away in November of 06. I went away in December of 06. He got seven years for shaking down a stock broken firm. And I went away for that shooting.

I came home in 2010. Now, he's got another two, three years ago. So he was so happy when I got out. So I walked basically out on parole to a whole lot of work. Right. What did he leave you? Oh, my God. I had loan shock list, deadbeat list.

I had to start running around town. What's a deadbeat list? You like guys that owe money. I ain't paying. I got to find this one. Chase that one. I was home. I swear to God, I was home three weeks.

I'm already going to this guy, Brian Fahey's car wash. Basically his face turned white is a loose leaf paper. I says, you know why I'm here. He's like, oh, Gene, you don't understand. He tried to hit me with all the feds are watching. I said, bro, don't hit me with that. I said next time I come back, you have that 75,000, I'm shooting you. And fucking, he didn't pay on time.

And then I popped him, you know. So you didn't give a fuck. I can fuck about nothing. Wow. Were you on drugs? No. Adrenaline. ADD.

ADHD. That's the scariest tech. I don't do, I hated draw. I wasn't a drug guy at all. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, because by 2010, 2011, I mean, like, the mob is already so exposed. Right.

You know, you guys are under surveillance everywhere in New York. City. It's, you know, when you went to pull like a Jux or, you know, shake somebody down. Well, when you say, when you say Jux, like, we did more like high profile scores. And I'm not trying to knock like, we weren't just like going on our street corner going, give me your money. You know, we would do like, you know, homework. Okay. So give it, give me a good assignment. So like when we like, so because we're already making good money. So. Right. So you don't need to rob people. No, we like to do it. No, we like it. Yeah. So it's extra free money as we look at it. So we plot on like big drug dealers, stash houses, guys come to us because they know I had a robbery team.

I had a mean robbery team. Okay. That's not mob. That's my side shit. Right. You know what I'm saying? So I'm fascinating by this because like I said, everywhere you go in the city now, the five boroughs, you're basically under surveillance. A camera can catch you.

If they want to get you in New York, you could shoot somebody in the Bronx. If they wanted to do, they could probably follow you from camera to camera to camera all the way to Howard Beach. So what kind of precautions did you? you take when you were robbing a big drug stash? I was responsible and this is not exaggeration. One thing about me, I can't exaggerate because I did profits. I cooperated. So my prosecutors and then would say, oh, he's bullshit. They know everything. It's real. Right. I admitted to over 150 scores. Okay. You understand that. Yeah. All right. So this is, this is a real industry. I was one of the, like, we were one of the worst robbery teams in the five boroughs.

Like, we were that bad. So I had a mean team. So like, this is not bullshit. Like, they had me down for like a lot. We were doing jewelry stores, heist. We were trying to hit Brinkstrax. We were bad. So I would do homework. I put tracking devices on you. We would spend money to rob you. Right. Because we're going to get $500,000, $300,000 high-end jewelry.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So we do homework. It's not like, you know, a corner store gang. And I see a guy with a leather jacket and a cell phone. I'm sticking them up. You know what I mean? We're doing home invasions because we're going in there because we know you got a

half a million dollars cash in your house. And would you bring that out sometimes? Oh, sometimes we, the last score we hit was a total of half a million. We've hit jewelry stores for a million dollars in jewelry. Where? Oh, Manhattan. Diamond District? No, not Diamond District.

But this is back in 2006. We hit one in Manhattan. It was actually a newspaper. They lied. It said it was $3 million. They tried more insurance money. It was actually $1 million. I would have done the same thing.

Yeah, they got more insurance money, you know? So you went in there. Tell us about your team. So I use gang members because they had all the cahonas. You know what I'm saying? And plus guys that if I was robbing somebody that, let's say, a drug dealer that might know what me, I would send somebody else in to, you know, not, you know, identify me.

You know, I would do to myself sometimes, but I would also use a lot of gang members as well, you know. Like bloods and cribs, Trinitarious. I had a Latin King. I had a blood. I had a crip. I had a few of them. But they were good. I had them for a while.

And then, um, uh, and then we would do our homework and we, you know, get, we get tips. A lot of times guys would come to us. Yeah. Their friends be setting them up. I had a guy set up his own uncle. Wow. It gets bad when somebody wants money and they're just, hey, hey, jealous you or whatever. And they come to say, listen, he's got a safe in his house.

I've seen it. There's 500. There's that in there. Okay, give us the layout. And then we start stalking you. Doing the homework, watching the neighbors, seeing who walks the dog. Anything can go wrong. He's in a movie.

Do you take a, say you're robbing a jewelry store in Manhattan. Right. Do you take a stolen car? We use high-end cars, but fake plates over them. Right. How do you get a fake plate? You just take, you'll go to another neighborhood. You take them off the car.

That's simple. It's all we used to do. Yeah. Yeah. How many guys would you take? So, two cars. We'd always have two cars. So you got about five guys?

Oh, no. It would be me and my partner of running man's And then two other guys In the other cars We have four guys But when we're doing the surveillance Like let's say we're following you Because sometimes we'll follow you

And watch your route You don't want to have the same car on you For the whole time So we'll switch off It's almost like cop shit You know what I'm saying Yeah No this is sophisticated

Absolutely This is high in You probably get a lot of time for this I was facing a hundred years Yeah I think so Put all my crimes I was fucking lights out Yeah

Do you remember any scores of drugs Do you ever hit Yeah A bunch of bricks? No, no, we never hit bricks. So we, my friend, my friend Ronnie Manns did when he was younger and the, uh, on Dominicans, that's a crazy story. They sent the girl to kill him.

Uh, yeah, it was crazy story. But, um, he was my partner, my own Robin partner. We hit like more cash. And then we get like, you know, maybe a brick, not bricks, one brick. Or we get a thousand pills, high in jewelry. His drug deals got big jewelry, you know. So, you know, sometimes we do a score. We'll come out with maybe 200,000, three ways.

You know, sometimes three, four hundred thousand. It depends, you know. So if you take a bunch of jewelry off somebody or off of a store, you have fences already set up. In the Diamond District. Yeah. I had a guy that literally take anything under the table. When he sees me, he'd get happy. Come on, come, come, go, go, go.

He knew. He knew. Your uncle called, or Anthony called him the beards. Yeah. And we all know who that is. Yeah. They don't give a shit. They were just building the tunnel over there.

You know, I know what I liked about this guy? He would tell me, he goes, Gene. He goes, this is what I'm going to sell it for. And this is what I'm going to give you. I got to make money, too. Masterpiece Rolex is. Right. But take high-end jewelry where he's like, Gene, the watches were at 90.

I'm going to give you 45. I'm going to sell up a 55. All right, no problem. You know what I'm saying? No questions asked where you got it. What? They know where it's coming from. Dude, I swear to God, 20% of that 47th Street, the Diamond District, is got to be stolen goods.

20% way more than that. They're crookedest could be over there. What do you mean? So crooked. They don't give a fuck. I just read in the New York Post. I love the post. I love the fucking post, right?

It's like yellow journalism. Right. You know, they just got juxt a couple of weeks ago, big diamond heist. Guys went in there, tied them up, like old school style, you know, and just ran out of there. It probably that, that loot was probably already accounted for in Brooklyn. You know what I mean? They already had a guy waiting to take all the stuff. That's how it goes.

But you don't, but it's not the movies. It takes a while because when we had the, one time we hit a jewelry store, we took like a half a million dollars just in gold. It was just like all chains and necklaces and the guy goes, I got to melt it down. He was giving me pieces. I said, we want some money up front. So he gave me 50 up front. He goes, give me another three weeks. I'll bring you more because you can't just walk in and say, here's seven duffel bags of gold.

I'm going to melt this down. You know what I'm saying? You got to do it by little by little. Can you remember any scores that went wrong? Oh, my God. Like horribly wrong? Yeah. Well, I remember one with me was me and my partner Bobby used to do stickups.

And we used to rob gangses sometimes. So we got a score. and I almost got killed. Well, if she would have shot, I've been dead. What ends up happen is we decided to do rob a guy coming out of legacy. The owner of Legacy is Ali Shades. He's a captain of the Genevieve's family. What is Legacy?

It was a club in Brooklyn, Vince and Hers. And we got the tip, and we knew that this guy would come out with a briefcase, with about 75 Gs in it, and he'd go into his house. He drove the little mini-Cupa, and he pulled right into his driveway. and just get him. You know, I got the whole layout. We watched him. And when he comes out, he's going to have the briefcase.

Just run down and get the briefcase. I said, yeah, no problem. I got that, you know? So me and my partner, Bobby, we go there. We sit on him exactly how it happens. I got a ski mask on. I got my hat. I got a pistol.

I'm like 20 years old. All of a sudden, I do exactly what it is, except what? When I grabbed the briefcase and I ran down, he wouldn't give it to me. Not only he wouldn't give it to me, he started honking his horn. That was a code.

I guess he had with his wife. she came out with a suckety-sam shotgun. So that's a code. I guess he had a code like, I'm in trouble. I had to shoot my way out of that yard. She pointed it right at me. Boom.

But she froze up. I fired. Boom, boom. And I got out. If she didn't freeze up, she's blowing me away. And probably getting away with it too. Yeah,

no shit. So I didn't get the money. Not then. I turned out the next one. I tried to rob a skipper from the Genovese family. Wow. It's cowboy stuff. Yeah.

You think back in the 70s and 80s, you probably would have been dead for all this stuff. The only reason why I say I won't. I wouldn't have been dead because my uncle Andy. Okay. Who was on? Fat Andy.

Of course. It's God. Fucking God. So, yeah, what was your relationship with him like? Well, I met, I was with him for three years. I was young, though.

So, you know, I got to hang out of him here and there, but not on gangster shit because I was a kid. But, you know, I knew everything about him. And then he went away, of course. No, he died. He passed away. Oh, because he got out in the late 90s.

And then we were with him in the 90s and they died in 99. That's right. That's right. That's right. Were you prepared to shoot somebody? Yeah. If they didn't give it up? I was debating on shooting him.

And that's why I was going to pop in his stomach. And then I just didn't have enough time because the shotgun was already coming out. I seen the double fucking barrel. I seen that barrel. It's terrifying. And I just started firing. Boom, boom,

and I got out of there. Did you have a protocol with your guys when you were pulling scores? Like if he doesn't give it up or if he gives a shit? I never want nobody killed for no reason. You know what I'm saying? We bluff. No, that is a reason. Yeah.

That's different. But you never go in there and you start, I don't want nobody getting. killed and taken money. We're not doing that. Okay, but if I'm a drug dealer, if I got a bunch of cash. We'll beat you. We'll beat you. You know, we pistol whip you. We won't kill you. Yeah. My friend Vinnie Minio and my friend Frank LaCourt is serving 50 to life in 20 years for just, for just setting that up.

Where somebody got killed. Somebody got killed. They sent two black dudes in to rob, do a home invasion and they shot the fucking son in the head. Yeah. And that's no, we don't do that. It's brutal. You got to be really careful. More he's doing 50 to life. Yeah. My other friend Vinnie Minio, who's never been in a fist fight in his life. He's doing 20 years for that. Yeah. Yeah. So you never had to put a bullet through somebody's knee or anything like that? No, pistol whip. Yeah. Put knives in neck, scare them like that to get safe. You know, sometimes they got, we had one time where the guy had a floorboard and the girl had to show us where it was because he wasn't and it slid and all the

money was in the fucking floorboard. You know the wooden floorboards? It slid. Wow. Fucking 140,000 cash in there. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And when you see that, I'm like, do you start sweating? Well, it looked like a million because it was in 50s and 20s. I said, Oh, we got the mother load, but it was only, it was in a million. It was like 140. Wow. Yeah. So you're really making, this is good business.

Well, I'm not supposed to be doing this shit at all. Okay. This is from the bananas. You're not supposed to be. They don't mind. You know, I get mad about that shit. They grew up on Robin, but it's just that Ronnie didn't want it because he's a millionaire. He's established.

If he wasn't, he'd be robin. But because his rule was, I got all this money. Don't fuck my money up. I need you out. Don't do all this cowboy shit. Motherfucker, you're worth $35 million. We're not. You know what I'm saying?

Right. So he was like being a hypocrite almost. Well, it was cool when they did it. Right, now we're doing it. It's like, oh, come on, you got to collect my money. I need you in the street. You're doing this cowboy shit. If you were broke, you'd be doing this shit with us.

Come on, bro. And also, that is the hypocrisy of the whole system because they don't ask you, you know, if you're a made guy, you got to kick up to the captain, whatever it is, 5Gs a week. They don't ask you where you got that money from. I'll tell you a great story about this with Ronnie. So Ronnie, Ronnie, I love, listen, I was close to Ronnie, but he's very cheap. And he had to kick up money to Jerry. Jerry didn't actually know how much money he was making.

Now, mind you, Ronnie, you could look this up so you don't think the number's exaggerated. He was making anywhere from 120 to 300,000 a month. Just with all his- Blown shocking in sports. That's the kind of money. You know how much he was giving his cousin, Jerry? A thousand dollars a month. Wait, listen, he had no clue.

When he found out how much money he was making on the visit floor, he flipped the table. They went and told him, Ronnie's crew got mad at him. He was fighting with each other. And he went up there and says, you know how much money he's guys making? He goes, he's giving me a thousand. thousand a month. He's supposed to get at least $20,000 or $3,000 of that. And we're paying a thousand. We're paying the thousand. Is that enough to get a beating? That's enough to get shelf. But here's the thing. That's enough to get killed. Right. But not they're all related.

So let me explain to you about this little Queens banana fraction why they all get lucky with each other. Vinnie, Jerry, Jackie, captains, consigliere, soldiers. They're all cousins, brothers and uncles. They're not killing each other. Now, if this is a regular crew, Ronnie goes. A captain finds out that his soldier is making $400,000, $1,000, they're going to kill him and take everything. 100%. Carmonious Nate, Columbo's, he's dead. Any real boss gone dead. Because they're all related to each other, they kind of like break rules and get away with this shit.

You know what I mean? So why, yeah, why Rob when you got a sports book and a Shylock business that's making you six figures a month? Yeah, but you understand, we live in a party life and we want more. And, you know, guys are coming to us and they're like, listen, this guy got out, we're not passing up with that. I mean, my partner, Ronnie Man's here. guy got $200,000.

We're going to get that. You know what I mean? It's just the way we were, you know? So how do you plan on being made someday? Oh, that was proposed. That was waiting. Vinnie O'Sara wanted me straightened out. He wanted me in Vinny.

Ronnie just kept saying, Ronnie kept saying, listen, I don't want him on my list. I need him in the street because if I get straightened out, I go on his list. He's on federal parole. So now I can't be near him. I'm with the guy 24-7.

He loves me. He wants to get him 24-7. He don't even talk to nobody. Everybody got to go through me. Yeah. He don't speak to no one. So that was the problem. And also, you know, I was wild, you know,

and it was a wide tap kind of where he said, you know, if we give this kid power, you know. Did anybody sit down with you, a boss or consig, and sit down and say, hey, we like you, but you need to, like, you need to cool out? Well, I was getting word. See, this is fucked up because they sent me to beat up a guy, right? I went in the guy's house.

I beat him up from his mother, right, with a Billy Club. His uncle was a captain in the Genevieve's family, Conrad. And Bonnie, the boss of the family, He just called me a fucking walker time bomb, which is bad. The guy's very known, respect to God. And I get the bad name for it. But I was sent to do that. I wouldn't have just did it where I was being sent.

So I was getting this mean reputation as this lunatic, walking time buying wild cowboy. But you're sending me to do this shit. So don't not straighten me out now because you got me act like a lunatic when you're making me a lunatic. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a fucking, it's like a lose-lose situation.

Yeah, well, I think they would rather have you doing the brute stuff. Like, don't you think setting your reputation as a crazy, violent guy, young, kind of hurts you if you want to get made? Because then the boss is these white collar guys who are rich now, right? Who've been making millions for years. They say, we don't want to make this guy. We want to just, he's dispensable. We want to use him as the muscle. Well, here's the thing.

Yes and no, because my crew really loved me. And they knew I deserved it. Honestly, they loved me. They used to brag about me in other neighborhoods. Like, everyone knew, like, oh, this is the next guy. Like, I was really like that. And you had a good business mind. still. Yeah, I was pulling out. I mean, I was walking to people's businesses that owe money with a

fucking hatchet. And you know what I mean? That doesn't make me and you have a good business mind. That means I was just a lunatic. Yeah. And people were just terrified of me and they like, I brought fear to the crew. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. So did you have the capacity though to, to, to if you got straightened out to leave that alone and really become this businessman? Well, what I was doing, what I was doing was putting all bad guys around me. So I was, I had a whole bunch of bad guys. So you had your team. You were lined at a dog. I recruited a little Goddy. He was a balser kid. I had fat mad. I had a bunch of young gang members that they couldn't be in the mall, but they do dirty work. Right. I had one kid, I'll kill you for $2,500.

Right. Far Rockaway. He'll kill you for $2,500 in broad daylight. Yeah, Far Rockaway is a rough Yeah. I had some rough guys. So, you know, and then I had another guy, Vinnie, he ended up killing himself. He was good, but he blew he killed himself. Can I ask you this? So, you know, traditionally the Italian wise guys in New York don't do business. I mean, they might do business, but they're not going to have a black guy or a Puerto Rican or Dominican in their crew. But You can't. But now the generations, you know, everything's involved and woke. You had it on the law.

Okay, cool. So did you have... You can never be like, oh, this guy's what mean, he's a blood. No, but you'll have them where it's like, he's my guy, you know, God, I need to take care of something for me and they'll do it, you know, and you take care of them, you know what I mean? Right, right. We've done that.

I've done that. You know what I mean? But it's still Sicilian, like, if to be made, you still got to be full-blooded Italian. Yeah, but they don't check the four last names no more. You see, they used to check it. They only check your last name now. It used to be where you had to have four Italian last names, you know, because I have four Italian last names. What is your full name?

So my last thing, I have Borrello, Damico, Guerrera, and Bon Giovanni. That's four last names. That's three too many. Yeah. So many last names. No, I'm saying. That's how they check your bloodline. Right.

You know what I'm saying? Right. Right. Did you have wise guys in your blood from the old country? No, I wouldn't know. Yeah. You know, I wouldn't know. Yeah.

You know. Okay. So things are moving on. What happened? Why were you not? Why did it not pan out? what do you mean the life? Yeah.

I went to jail. On what pinch? State organized crime pinch. I got, my cousin was wearing a wire on me. Wow. Yeah. He got caught selling drugs to an undercover, pulling drugs out of his baby's backpack, four ounces or more like 21 times.

And he's on federal probation. Shit. What year is this? 2013, I think he got caught up or the end of 12. And they wanted me and my guys. Okay, so you were already on the radar. Fed started at the bottom. That's how they operate.

Right. They worked their way up to the top. They go for the crumbs and then they got me and then I gave him the big fish. That's how it works. So you were, yeah, you were about in the middle. You had worked your way up to like a good order. Oh, I was the guy. I was the guy.

I worked directly for Vinny and Rodney. You know what I mean? That's it. Right. Okay. And by this time, there's a boss of the family now. Tommy DeFury. Right.

Vin's running the family with him. Got it. And is he free or is he locked up running the family? He was free. Okay. He was the first street boss since Joe Massino. Wow. Mikey DeNose appointed him because Mikey knows was the family, the family.

family boss, but he appointed a street boss from jail because he was serving 20 for a murder. So he appointed Tommy DeFerreary and said, this is our first street boss since Joe. So Tommy DeFerreary was the street boss. So everything's going good. Tell me about the money really quick and then I want to get into how your cousin set you up. Right. You know, we're led to believe on television, you know, The Sopranos is where I get my knowledge. A guy, an associate like you, a guy who's on record.

Right. You're making, they don't know about the robberies, but you're making money from your, your shylock, your sports book. your deadbeat list. Right. You give it, who are you paying? And then are you paying a captain? And then does he kick up to the boss?

Like, how does the money make its way to the boss? Yeah. So that's, I'll explain that. So a wise guy got a crew. So a wise guy have usually like seven, eight associates with him that give the wise guy money. And then the wise guy gives the captain the money. And then he, he's supposed to give some of his,

but our wise guy was not giving it. We were just paying it. Oh, so you were just to his cousin Jerry, because his cousin was his captain. And then Ronnie became a captain because Jerry was gone. So Ryan became skipper. But Ronnie was gavone and everything. Ronnie had everyone paying.

You know, he was bare with money. That was his only downfall. He was very greedy. Okay. So you were just paying the captain directly. You weren't even paying your wise guy. Right. But he didn't take money from me.

He didn't do it. I would go to everyone else and collect the money for him and say, oh, it's got to go to Ronnie or Jerry where I had to go to, I get the envelope. And I would see what he would put in. He wouldn't put no money in. Right. So this is the system is... I knew the real secret that he didn't pay.

You know what they could never figure out in the mall. was percentages. Like how much of... Because there's no way to keep track of a score. There's no way to fully keep track of a score. Mandatory with the bananas

was set, a soldier must give a thousand a month. That was mandatory. Every soldier must give a thousand a month. That was mandatory to their skipper. And how many soldiers did they have? They could also tax if you're making big money. They also want a piece of, you know,

what you're making. If you're bringing in three... Like, my boss is bringing in $300,000, he's giving $1,000. He was fucking going. He was furious, you know what I mean? And how many soldiers were in the banana family? Oh, probably in the street,

probably 200. Wow, and they're each kicking up a thousand of the boss every month. Yeah, it's supposed to all give at least a thousand a month. Oh, so if you're a boss, you're making millions a year if you got enough soldiers. Captain's supposed to kick up more than that. Because let's say if you got 15 soldiers in your crew, let's say you're getting a piece of their business. You might be getting $20,000 in a month from just, you know, your crew. Right.

You got to give the boss $5,000 at that. Maybe something, you know, it could be more than, you know, depends. Joe Messino used to get $300,000 for Christmas. Right. Just for Christmas. They guess captains gave them $300,000. Right. But if you're a soldier, you're never paying the boss directly.

It all has to go through the captain. You'll meet your boss. You'll see him. But you're not giving him an envelope. No. No. No. He'll call upon you.

You get called upon, you know? Consigliaries and underbosses. Do they still exist? Absolutely. Structure's still the same. Structure's still the same. Yeah. What is the point of the under boss is like a vice president?

Yeah. Well, basically he talks for the boss. So like, sorry. The under bosses pretty much relays all the messages for the boss. So he's running, he really runs the family as well, but he'll get his orders from Joe. and he'll send them out. Right.

You know what I mean? Well, at the time, Joe Messino was on the boss was Vitaly. Um, um, um, he cooperated actually, um, and Vinnie Vitaly.

Um, and that's how that would work. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's to keep. And then, I guess hits, does the mob actually pull?

Does the boss ever have a, a button guy that says go push a button on somebody or is that all done? And is all the murder. The murder is out. The murder's out. The murder's out. Right now. The murder's gone.

It's gone. It's gone. It had to eliminate it. Now is that. You know, your cousin Anthony told us that in Detroit now, the family in Detroit, very strong. They just let you beat the Monarch. Exactly. Yeah.

That's true. It's because these RICO charges are so bad. It's so insane. It's so insane with the time they give you with the mafia. They're so strict with it that they'll give you 10 years for construction fraud. You know what I mean? Because they're so strict with organized crime because they ruled the country at one time. They got to keep their foot on the net.

Right. So in Detroit, for people that didn't hear last episode, now if you're loaning money to someone, somebody and he don't pay or if you're... They'll allow you just to say, don't worry about it. Exactly. They'll just forgive the debt. I should go live in Detroit. I'll stop borrow.

Exactly. Well, it's kind of like the United States. We're heavily in debt and we don't, we don't pay it. We just keep printing money. Right. So it's 2013. Your cousin gets knocked for drugs, cocaine. Yeah.

And this is where it all starts coming up. I guess, yeah. It's when he started, you know, informing and setting me up and people are me. So how did that, how did that escalate? And then when did you get arrested? I got locked up September 2014. Okay. So he and then what was the discovery paperwork? Was he wearing a wire? Oh my God. It was, but it was an ongoing investigation. You see, because they were working with the FBI. So the FBI was already investigating me for years. So this was just to hold me in the state. Plus, I had some shit going on in Florida. They came and locked me up as well. So I couldn't bail out. And then my lawyer was telling me the feds is coming to get you too. So I had three different conspiracies going on.

You're probably on probation, right? No, I wasn't. I just finished. I just got, no, sorry, I was on, I'm sorry, I never was off probation. You're right. I, the first time I'm off in 21 years is September. Wow. Yeah. And when you get locked up for a new charge when you're on probation. Yeah, you're a man to regales. You can't, you can't bail out. Regardless, I remember I'm a predicate felon. You know, I'm in there for guns, selling guns, conspiracy to this. Florida got me on armed robbery in a jewelry store. And the feds is coming down on conspiracy to murder, attempted murder, home every charge you could think of. And so how long did it take you before you just,

decided. 19 months. That's when they arrested you. No, it took me 19 months to cooperate. When I decided to flip, 19 months. I sat up in Rikers, 19 months.

Wow. What was Rikers like while you were fighting the case? Oh, you know, at that time, you know, I'm used to Rikers and all the gang members loved me and I was getting into shit, but I was causing it.

And then, you know, I wasn't taking no shit. I was holding down the people that couldn't help themselves, you know? Yeah. I was on my jail shit, you know? Yeah. So why, why did you eventually decide to flip?

I got mad. Well, there was a lot of reasons. You know, I'm like you real. Obviously, nobody wants to die in prison. That was one. I asked Ronnie to get me a federal attorney. He says, oh, I'll wait until it goes to the feds. He was never going to do it.

He was just being a dick. Greedy fuck that he is sometimes. And my little brother had a gun charge that I was because of me. I sent him with my rat cousin. And he set my brother up. So my little brother was against seven years. Yeah. So when I cooperated, I basically told him he don't go a day.

And they threw it away. You know, when I was locked up, I was locked up with this biker dude. he was a shock caller for one of the Hells Angels gangs in the state prison where I was at. And he said what the angels do is that they have a fund. They're like union dues that they pay into. Whenever somebody gets locked up, they all chip into bail out. Because they know if they treat you right, if you're a worker and you've got a bunch of info on them, if we can help you get out of jail immediately get you a lawyer, the less likely you are to flip.

Well, think about it. And at the end of the day, look who's cooperating the mafia, guys that you never think. Murderers, serial killers. So think about what they're thinking. Gene's a good guy, but look at the charges he's got. This guy's facing a lot of time. We're going to pay his lawyer for what? He might go bad.

You know, that's how they're thinking. I remember when Jerry got locked up, Ronnie goes, oh, he might go bad. That's how he talks about his own captain. Wow. Imagine they talk about me, you know, because Jerry moved the body for his father. He got locked up for moving. Vinny killed the guy back in 1969, buried him under a house, and asked his son to move. him later on and he got charged with that.

So when he got picked up for that, Ronnie's probably like, oh, he might go bad. So think about how they talk about me. Do you think if Vinny or those guys had helped you more? Do you think you would have stayed tight? I wanted to fight and chance, but you know, I knew I was fucked because I was trying to get a 20-year cop out and they said it wasn't going to happen. Wow.

So you were trying to say, I'll do 20. I was legitimately, and my mother and everyone could verify this when I was calling home, I'll take 20 right now until like, you're not getting 20. You're looking at 20 just in the feds. What about Florida and the state? You're looking at like, 37 years total. You know what I'm saying? And if you blow trial on RICO's in that, you can get 50, 100 years. So they didn't come to you, the DA and the U.S. attorney didn't come to you right away with an offer?

I made it clear. I'm not coping out to 30 years or 35. You got to give that to me. I made that clear on the phone purpose, because they'll listen. I'll never take 35, 40 years. You have to give that to me. It means I'm going to trial. Like, I'm not taking that. 20 years I'll take. I'll be upset about it. But I know I come home in like 40, five years old. I'm happy with that. Because I was only 30 when they got me. Right. So if you have blown trial, you would have certainly been, locked up forever, right? Forever. When you blow trial on Rico racketeering cases, your guidelines are life. Yeah.

They can give you anything they want. But you said you were going to take it to trial. Right. But it's like trying to like... I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's a negotiation. Like it goes like trying to like... It's a bluff. You bluff all the way till you go. Like, all right, he's going to trial. Give him this 27 or 25. You know, better than 40 or 30, you know.

Right. So... Are you scared? Yes, absolutely. Because, you know, and I lost everything. You know what I'm saying? So it sucked, you know? Who took your businesses over? Who knows? Mm-hmm. You know?

Who knows? You didn't have anybody in the street that... Yeah, but everybody gets, you know, everybody gets nervous when you got cases like that. I was on fire. The feds had me like, as public enemy number one. Everybody was scared to take calls. They don't know, not that I'm riding, but just like they're listening to everything on me. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. What happened to the rest of your crew? Like your stick up crew, the guys you had... They were all fucking, you know, I wouldn't call them. I wasn't contacted anyone like that. Oh, but they didn't swoop them up. They didn't have anything on them.

No, they didn't get them. They got them later. No, they were investigating them as well. They were tied up in the thing. They were waiting for it to go federal, and they were going to bring us all over. They were holding me in the state because they wanted me off the fucking street.

Yeah. I was on wiretap, and I said, oh, we're going to tear Florida to pieces because Florida was wide open. What were you doing in Florida? Hitting jewelry stores. Uh-huh.

I told him, I was on a wiretap, talking on a burner phone to my cousin saying, oh, my God, there's one cop or 30 blocks we're going to rip the state to pieces. Wow. How did they get a wire? Oh, because your cousin was cooperating, right?

Yeah. So, you know, they didn't like that. did you end up flipping on your crew? Obviously, the guy in the higherups, but what about your stick up crew? The guys you had working for you. Well, they were all over Y-Taps, everything. So it was like, when you do profas with them,

there's nothing you could lie about. And if you do it, they'll bring it up to you and say, you know, we know you're trying to like look out for somebody. What are you talking about? We have Y-Tap information that you did crime with this guy. And I'm like, oh, I forgot. You know what I'm saying? When they proffer, when you do proffers,

yeah, you got to tell them everything. Well, here's the thing. I, there was, there was five guys wearing a wire. Five. I was the last guy to cooperate on this case, but they needed me the most because I was right-hand man, Marys Durrani, and I was the last guy to do crimes for Vinny. Vinny just beat the biggest case in the country. The Altonza Haist upset was the biggest upset in the country.

Oh, wait, wait, wait. He beat it. Vinny was the guy, the old man. That's my boss. Oh, I see. Yeah, so when he beat that case, not guilty, he says, I'm done. They know, they work for this guy. They're going to terrorize me.

Right. I'm the last guy to do crime for this guy. That's unbelievable. I remember what he got. locked up for that five years ago. And I was like, oh, he's done. He looked like a sad old man. You could Google this.

He beat the case. How did he beat the case? Wait, listen to this. You could Google this. It had the most media attention of a mob case of all time. It beat out the commission case. It beat out all the Gadi trials.

That's how much media was on this guy. Are you serious? It was world news. People in Japan knew he found not guilty. Wow. How did he beat that case? So how he beat it is called when you walk in the store, you buy a dollar,

mega millions ticket. That's the chance of the odds that he had beaten the case. and you hit for $800 million or a billion dollars. That's the odds of him being found not guilty. He was on wiretap telling the guy where the body is and they found the fucking corpse. Think about that. That's crazy.

They just don't understand how. It's just the jury just didn't want to convict them. You know, I think it's one of those O.J. Simpson things where they were so sick of police brutality and the racism that was going on in L.A. in the 90s that the jury just said suck a dick. That's possible. I think people are getting so sick of the overreach of the federal government. Right. that the jury, the working class jury was like, you know what?

Yeah, but he got away with it since the 70s. Fuck it. Let the old man be, you know. For 12 guys to find him not guilty with all, you have the other evidence. If you heard the Y attacks, you'd be mortified. I killed him. I strangled him with a dog chain. Wait, he goes, I fucking strangled him.

I buried him under the house. He goes that fucking piece of it. He's talking about killing this one, Mori's wig from Goodfellas. That was Barry. He was Murray. He killed the Mori. He killed Mori. Oh, this is the guy that killed Mori?

Yes. So he has him on the fucking. He got him on the fencing property. So they knew Mori was buried on his fencing property. Remember, he did the Goodfeller heist with them. He got 800,000 out of it, Vinny. So this is all on wiretap. His cousin had a wire on getting all the information.

Remember, Gaspur was a part of the Villotanza. He was a driver. So all this is on wiretap. He was found not guilty on everything. Did, but I think now in a federal trial, though, on any trial, right. Just one person has to find you not guilty. No.

No, there doesn't have to be a unanimous. Can we look that up, Ryan? No. I don't think 12 people have to find you. Oh, yes, you do. No, no, no, no, to be found guilty, all 12 have to find it. It would just be a mistrial. If one person don't agree with the other ones, it's just a mistrial, you got to do it again.

John Jr. It's a hung jury. John Jr. had six in him. It's a hung jury. Yeah. So you're telling me 12 jurors in Vinnie's Lutonzaa case found him not guilty. That's a sick part. No one knows how.

That is crazy. That is crazy. You have to, it'll be a mistrial. So then in the OJ case, is that. The same thing? Let's say if you have 12 jurors and one is saying not guilty, it's a mistrial. It's a mistrial. But they got to do it again.

But then they'll say, but they'll see if they're going to do it because they'll see what was the favor. If they see that it was even or if they see that it was more not guilty than guilty, they won't try you again. But if they see that it was more guilty than not, they're going to try you again. Or they might offer you like a better plea deal. Right, exactly. OJ wasn't federal, though the state could be a little different. Wow, that is bananas. That really is shocking.

Yeah. Is it possible all 12 people could be paid off? No, nobody was paid off. No way. No, he would just look like, you gotta see how they dressed him in there. He looked like Mr. Rogers, like a good grandpa. Right. I was crying and laughing, look at the article.

I said, they got Vinny dressed for an Uncle Roger sweater. I'm like dying. Like he's the innocent grandpa. It was great. So he walked out of it. My cousin testified on that trial, Anthony, Rogiano. And he was so mad because he was so close with him. And they said Vinny was in the chat.

Just, what the fuck? He was crazy. He's going crazy. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he walked out of there. So, so what is, what has become of him now? He's dead.

He just died. He just died. A free man? Yeah, he just died. Wow. He just died. That's incredible. I mean, 90 years old, he just died.

I got to say, like, good for that guy. Yeah, he was a fucking gangster. I mean, what a g-gast. I mean, he was a gangster. But you ended up flipping on her or at least given information about it. Yeah, I did a bunch of stuff for him, but they only charge him on one thing. They said they didn't want to make it a big Rico case with him again. So they charged him with the awes and I did assaults for him, things for him.

He wanted me to kill a janitor, moved down. I can't even get into how psychotic he was. So Vinny wasn't a good guy. No. Fucking, like 15 murders. You didn't mean a good guy. He was fucking killed people over the country. I mean, all over the land, you know?

Yeah, yeah. But he never ended up, even the information that you gave the government on him. I don't, they didn't get him on anything. Nine years. Nine years. Nine years. Oh, okay. But he got left go because of COVID.

I got like four years. I got you. I got you. Man. I mean, the guy, the guy was still running in his 80s. He was still committing crime. He was still, he ordered him. He wanted me to kill a janitor.

He was like 79 years old at the time. He was actually staking the guy out and was showing me where they got him. He was nuts. Yeah, it's nuts, man. That generation, bro, there was something in the water. They only believed in killing. You know what I mean? That's how they handle their problems.

When you deal old times, they only, you know, let's not beat him up. Get rid of him. He's got to go. He's out of line. That's how they operate, you know? And you get like where Kennedy got whacked. You know, obviously the mob was involved with that. claim the guy from Louisiana, yeah.

Yeah, but that's how business was handled back then. He got way out of line. He's got to go. Well, I think the government's worse than the mafia, but I mean, you know. Yeah, I agree for sure. I think Hillary Clinton got like 60 bodies. The Clinton list is longer. How do you got 40 people that killed yourself next to you?

Crazy. Everybody's shooting themselves in the back 14 times. She's annoying. She's very annoying. Come on. But, okay, so you get locked up. You're in there 19 months at Rikers and then you say, okay, I'm done. Yeah, I flipped, and then they put me under a fake name in Somerset County, New Jersey, under Joey Russo.

I had to stay there until I had to take a lot of tech deaths to get into Wood Sack jail. It's very strict to get in there. So I had to wait a year to get in there. So who did you inform on? Who did you flip on? Mostly just Vinny and Ronnie. That's what they needed me for. Everyone else was already, remember this investigation was going on for like eight years.

Ricky Kessel was wearing a wire. He was a tough guy in my crew, and he was burying them as I was in jail. Right, right. You know what I mean? So you didn't have to wear a wire. No, I didn't have to testify? in court against anybody? No, they go copped out. Oh, wow.

Yeah. So you actually got up pretty easy. Yeah. Because, I mean, a lot of guys we talk to, they got to like, for years, they're going to trial. Yeah, no. They're setting people up. Everybody copped out. Everybody just took their time.

So what happened to Ronnie? So I, and you know, like I says, that's why I'm the perfect storm. My case was the biggest mafia case for our time. Ronnie G. Johnzo paid back the biggest forfeiture and banana crime family history. Wow. Pay back one of every, any banana guy ever. He paid back $2.4 million.

And paid it. What is a forfeiture? It means like what you owe the government. Wow. He paid it. Wow. He didn't owe it. Like I owe it.

He paid it. Yeah. Yeah. That's like unheard of. That was beat out Vinnie gorgeous. He beat out everybody in the banana family for forfeiture. He paid it. What does that mean, though?

What does forfeiture mean? It means like you owe the government wants you to pay this back. But most of the time the other gangsters can't pay it. But over what though? Like for crimes and things. Exhaustions. Assets. He paid back millions of dollars.

He paid it. Not like on a stormant plan. He fucking paid it. Yeah. And I told him you can never cripple him. This guy got millions, man. So, but what became of, you know, that, so did they make, were they able to make another case on Ronnie and Viti from your information? They already had him indicted.

I just put the violence. I added the violence in. So what happened to Ronnie? Ronnie got 14 years. For what? For everything. But they, they were going to charge him more stuff if he didn't take the time. They said, listen, we're going to hit you with another shooting or another thing.

Yeah. Take this time. But he was only supposed to get 10 years. The judge went. over and says you were getting people shot and beat up from jail. You're never going to change. I'm giving you this time. So he's in the feds right now?

Yeah, he comes home like five more years. Have you heard from him? No. I mean, do, you know, you're walking around now, you know, it's, you're, you're out in the open. Like I said, I'm a little arrogant. I'm cocky guy. I was a violent dude, tough guy. So it's like, you know, not anyone's just going to approach me.

I'm going to be honest with you. Right. Right. I was, I wasn't picked by the mafia because I'm a good dancer. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I was, you know what I mean? How long were you in Witsack for? Three years, but it's the jail.

It's not like in the street, just in the prison. How much time did you have to do? 63 months on that one. Okay. And then I came home into like 20 months in violations. Yeah, back and forth. What do they keep violating before? They were hating on that TV show and all kinds of shit.

They were mad that I was, yeah. Wait, what? Yeah, it was the show. They were made over the Johnny and Gene show. You're doing a podcast? Yeah, yeah. It was enough to get you violated? Because it was in the paper.

We had other cooperators coming on. We were making a mockery. It was just been talking about victims, abuse. using gangsters, it was bad. They were just... So are you worried about talking... I mean, you profit everything. You told them everything.

You have to. So you're not worried about anything you say on the podcast coming back. You can't. It's coverage. You sign a contract for that. That's kind of like immunity. Yeah, it's immunity. I have immunity.

I have immunity. I have immunity. How many murders do you have? No, well, in jail, you know, technically, I guess I have one, you could say. The man died while I was in a jail, so with him. But they... I feel like I didn't kill. him. Was it a fight? Yeah, it was a fight. He dropped dead. We tried to save him, but he died.

Where was it at? On Rikers? Or was it? It was when I was under my fake name. Oh, it was in the Witsack jail? Yeah. Joey Russo was in the Somerset County. Jeez. So technically, I don't feel like I killed him because the doctor. Joey killed him. No, well, honestly, I say this, real truthfully, he died of a heart attack of Suboxin. He was on Suboxin. We got into a rumble. He dropped. He didn't die there. He died in the hospital, but they ruled it a heart attack. Okay. So technically, it's not my fault. It was almost like if you were going to get charged, it would be with like manslaughter.

Manslaughter, but it never happened. And I try to tell him, I try to save him. I do water on him. I pumped his chest, you know. Yeah. So you never, all that time in the street. I shot people. But you never dropped anybody.

You never had to proffer to any bodies. No. Oh, wow. Do you feel lucky? Yeah. You know? Because, I mean, all that cowboy stuff in your early 20s could have put you away all day. I mean, don't get me wrong.

There's a guy we, like, we left guys in fucking puddles of blood. I mean, my partner Bobby would beat a guy with a rebound breast knuckles. He looked like he was dead. You know what I'm saying? He could have been dead. He didn't die. I'm saying,

but we didn't give a fuck if he died or not. That's the time we were on. Yeah. You know, I remember us pulling up and shooting into a car. You know what I'm saying? I shot his cousin. I missed Ted to Target.

You know what I'm saying? It was just, people just got lucky. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It seems like there's just that element to where, you know, it doesn't matter.

And those deep burrows, man, or uptown. We were all killers. We were all capable. We were all killers. Me and my group were the last, we would kill you if we had to. We had no problem with it. I had no problem shooting your head in front of everybody.

I tried to shoot a Crip Kid and Brodea in his head. Broad Dayla. I tried to blow his brains out with a 3.57. So you were prepared. I tried to kill him in the street. I thought I got him. He dove on the floor. My friend's like, he got him.

You got him. I took off. He ended up killing a cop six months later. Yeah. Nellie, Nelson Cruz. You could have done us a favor. Yeah, right. He saved a cop.

I always say that. Bad aim. Yeah. But I never used this before It was a fucking 357 snub. Wow. It was a monster. Snub nose?

Oh, yeah, it was a monster. The fucking birds are flying out the trees. Fucking things is just so loud. It's like a bomb going off. It's like that taxi driver's scene. That's what they used for killing elephants in Africa. It was strong, man, this gun. You were gun running?

Yeah, I didn't sell guns. I just always had them. Where did you source guns? Everyone. Anyway, I always said, if you got a gun, I'll take it. You know what I was the gun guy? I love guns. Where, you know, New York, obviously,

they have very strict gun laws. I imagine most of those guns are coming from out of state. You don't really know because I remember I had access and I was telling somebody this little day. I had a friend. He was like a military guy. Remember Rambo, the Rambo gun? The machine gun,

I had that, $2,500. I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do with it. But I had the fucking actual Rambo gun. You know what I mean? It was crazy. That's a lot of gun.

Yeah. Yeah. Guns are cheap though. $2,500 for a big ass rambo gun? You know, I had a lot of hookup. I had a machine gun with a silence. I had a 380 with a silence. So I got, you know, for like $1,500, you know, you get good prices.

That's $357. I pay $500 for. Yeah. We had nine barrettas, everything, all kinds of shit. So you come home and, yeah, you're going back and forth for violations, but you're essentially like out of life. Right. Right.

You guys, you and John A. Light, who, tell us about John A. A.L.A.L.A.L.A. was a hitter for John Jr., the Goddies. That's right. For the Gambinos. And he was a real hitter. Oh, yeah. Like he didn't miss like you. I mean, they tried to shit on him. Right. I'd say that he's not, you know what I'm saying?

But he really was. Yeah. He was a killer. So you, did you know him before? I met him before when I was younger. Yeah, he was very close to my family as well. Yeah. You guys started a podcast and you started, you claim, and I believe you, you, it was the first.

It is. It was. Yeah. It was. And so Michael came after that. Michael Franchise came after that? Well, Michael Franchise didn't have a podcast. They were doing interviews.

I'm saying we actually had a table, a podcast with guests. The interviews were already going on. you're just sitting down talking. We had the actual mafia podcast idea, the theme. Yeah, because it seems like every mafia guy's got a podcast now. They got it all from us. Yeah. Yeah.

What is like the old timers can't like that? No, absolutely not. I'm sure not. No. What's left of that old neighborhood? Ozone Park, Howard Beach. It's washed up now. What does that mean?

Like, it's not the same. Like, it's not the same. If you're left, it's because you won't do nothing. If you're somebody, you're either dead, jail, you cooperated because if you're making, if you're making noise, the feds are coming to get. you. You know what I'm saying? So whatever's left right now is the guys that we know, were nothings. They were hangarounds. Right. You know what I mean? Are they bought? But there's got to be bosses. Yeah, he's the guy that was doing John Gotti's laundry and he

straightened them out. You know what I'm saying? He wasn't a tough guy or a gangster. He was just there to be there. What up? Who, they're still straightening people out. Absolutely. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll never stop. Yeah. Because at least like there's a couple of business like loan sharking. And gambling, bread and butter. Right. Yeah. Right.

We call peanut butter and jelly. It's the best mix. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have regrets from that life? Do you wish you would have like made more money? Do you wish you would have to tone it down a little bit?

I mean, the regrets I have. Yeah. Not saving the money I was making. Yeah, obviously. You know, because if I made 40, I spent 80. You know what I mean? Yeah. We were just bad.

What were you spending? Oh, God. I went out from Monday to Sunday. You know, social club, two cars. You know, everything. You just living like a nut. I mean, yeah, clothes. I remember I going to the mall.

I used to like Burberry and the guy goes, I got nothing left for you, bro. Because you got every fucking style. I'm like, all right, let me know when you got some new shit. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, this is like 2011, 12. That was like my big years of money. You know what I mean?

2011, 12. I was making a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. Did you buy any property? Nothing. I was a rent apartment. I remember I talked about this a little day. 2011, my friend came to me.

He goes, yo, you walk around these thousands. Give me five grand. There's a thing called Bitcoin. I'm like, I was like, what is that? Are you talking Chinese? What the fuck is that? I don't want that shit. Oh, my God, look, look.

Right, right? What does five grand get me right now? I don't even know. And what did it go up to 67,000 a share? Well, that's like, what are worth the $100 million? It's crazy. It's crazy. I was walking around with fucking play money, $10,000.

I could just say here, take it. Yeah, go invest it for me. Right now, I'd be fucking like a king. So you had no legitimate investments. Nothing. That's all I believed in was the street. Yeah. Yeah, I was a street kid to the fullest.

I feel like the guys that are still. that are making real money, I feel like a huge chunk of that has got to be legit. Like the ones that really last. Absolutely. Yeah. Genevice family are into fucking all garbage drug businesses, restaurants, everything, you name it, they're into it.

Absolutely. Unions, this, that, absolutely, 100%. It seems like the Genevice, and I'm glad that's a real nugget that I had no idea about, it seems like they really lasted. The Genoveseis. The Rolls Royce of the Mafia. Okay.

They're called. The Rolls Royce of the Mafia. Because they're the higher. Not about the hot. Yeah, they just, they just, they operate very smart. I always say this in all my interviews. They're the smartest crew, the smartest family. They have no rats.

You know what I know why? Because they don't do no violence. Right. What creates rats? Yeah. All right, you do loan sharking and sports ban. You face it 10 years. Who the fuck is ratting over that?

Right. Bananos. Murders, shootings, moving bodies. 30 years, 50 years. You don't know who's going to cooperate. All invasions, arm robberies, fucking Rico, all these crazy charges where you're facing a a lot of time where they're getting pinch for construction fraud. Yeah.

You know, some bullshit where the guy's going to face in 86 months. If you cooperate over that, you're a jerk off. You never belonged to the street. You know what I'm saying? You can't take five years, eight years. I can sit on my head. Clause is spinning. You know what I'm saying?

A sports book. That's not even a fed charge. That's like the state. Orica sports book, 60 months. Who gives a fuck? When we're getting locked up, oh, here, take this 40 years. You know what I'm saying?

It's a different ball game, you know? Who's the boss of the Genovese? Bonnie. And he's still around? Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah. And you say, you call them the west side.

The west side. Because they're all Manhattan guys. They're based out of Manhattan. Interesting. So they call them the west side. Like uptown? Yeah, so you like back in the day, you couldn't say their names. You go, this guy.

Or Joe Messina was the ear. You know, Vinny Chin was the chin. You know, that's how they had their code names because you got caught saying the name of wiretap and you're walking that plank. Right. You know, you walk in the fucking plank. Automatic, that sentence. You know, Joe Messino found out. You said his name.

The ear wants to talk to you. You said Joe wants to see you or anything with Joe. You're dead. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. That was it. And you have the guys above you that put you on.

record, explain the rules to you. Oh, broke it down. I had Vinny to explain it to me. Come on, the guy's a fucking living legend of mafia. He could have wrote the rule book. Right. Guys goes back to the 50s. He was running in the 50s. He got strained up by Carmine Galente.

Right. Lilo, come on. You know what I'm saying? These guys go back. What can he teach you? It's crazy. You know what I'm saying? Even though he didn't follow any of the rules, but I'm saying, you know, he would

teach them to you. And Vinny, I want to put his picture up because he really, it seems like he really, now that he's dead, all the dinosaurs that remember the way the business was ran. He was like top five banana. They had a thing, like a, um, uh, uh, a survey. And he made like top five banana guys all time. Yeah.

Yeah. Because he was that guy. He's the one of the powerfulest captain in the 70s. Yeah. He used to tell people, they used to ask him to sit downs. He goes, I don't go to sit downs. That's how he was, a psycho. You know what I'm saying?

He's a fucking nut. They, they cracked a bottle over his daughter's head. He had the girl shot fucking five times in a bar. That's how crazy you are. You know what I'm saying? You know, he didn't play. And this guy was giving you orders. Love me.

You were part of a piece of history. He loved me. He loved me. I thought he hated me because he always screamed at me. So Ronnie broke it down. He goes, the more he yells at you, the more he likes you. He says, well, then he loves me because this guy's throwing things at me. Everything I did was wrong, but he really liked me.

And I remember meeting a wise guy from Middle Village and he goes, because I had to sit down over my rat cousin, Frankie, you know, and set me up. He wasn't paying rent somewhere, but the building was owned by Banana Guys. So they knew he was my cousin. So they reached out. And the guy was a wise guy. And Vinny goes, don't worry. You go see him. I says, I'm not straight in that.

He goes, don't worry. go talk to them. I said, okay, I go talk to them. And when I shook his in, he goes, oh, nice to meet you. Vinny talked so highly about you. I said, I said, who you got the right guy? He's like, yeah. He goes, yeah, Vinny loved. And that's how I knew he really used to boost and brag about me, yeah, tell the neighborhoods, you know? So. There's two New Yorks, you know, like you have Manhattan that's full of like white guys that almost sound like me, you know? If you're raised on the Upper West Side, you know, and your parents are lawyers, like you could barely tell that they're from New York. Absolutely. But then you guys, New Yorkers, you guys are, and you got the accents still.

You're the last people that have a New York accent. Yeah, this thing will die with me. And that's right. And you live in this insular world across the East River. It's our own world. Yeah. It's really, I tell people that all time, we lived in our own world. And the mafia, you got understand why people are so obsessed with it. Bloods is like 100,000 of them. 200,000 gang members and you don't even know who's who. With the mafia, everybody knows each other. If you're in a banana family, it's very easily, if you came to me, says, oh, yeah, I'm a banana guy, I'm a real, oh, you are, what's your name? Who's, what crew are you with?

I'll find out in 3.2 seconds if you're lying to me. With bloods, you're gangs, you'll never know. Right. They can say, oh, this guy brought me home that one. With us, we'll find you out in a second. The crew is like very small, very tight knit. You're with the queen's fraction? Okay, that means there's two captains.

You can only be under two guys. Right. What crew are you in? It's very simple. Right. You can't hide. You can't lie. We're going to find out in two minutes.

You know what I mean? So it's different with us. And that's why people are very obsessed with the mafia because there's a very small group of us. I'm the only modern day guy out that talks. There's no one else that can talk about the 90s, 2000s. Right. That was really running around like I was. Right.

You know what I mean? So that's why, you know, I'm taking advantage of it. What about the Greeks and the Albanians in New York? Are they stronger? Are the Albanians the strongest? Oh, my God. We'd have to do another whole hour segment on them motherfuckers. I mean, yeah, they're ruthless, bro.

Did you ever do business with them? Yeah, they're crazy, man. I love them. At first we didn't like them. We always fought with them. You go to a football game, you fight with them. One of a sudden is like 600 of them

with chains and backs coming at you, chainsaws and fucking, they're just crazy, bro. They're fucking crazy. Yeah, they were wild, you know? But are they now, like, would you say they're the strongest? I don't know.

New York is, like, really ran by the gangs now. I'm going to be honest with you. Really? Yeah, it's bad. The Bronx is like Iraq. I mean, it's so bad right now. You can't even go over there. It's gangland, man.

Yeah. They're fucking bad. You got 16-year-old kids shooting you with fucking choppers now in the Bronx. It's so bad the gangs right now. So, I mean, the Albanians are wild. I guess the Greeks and that, but the gangs is really like the problem. I mean, like the money makers, though, of the people in the neighborhoods.

I mean, yeah, the Italians still make money. Yeah. They're just nonviolent. That's all they're still the money makers. So this might, there actually might be a renaissance. When I say the mafia's dead, it's because I mean as far as like, I was an action guy. We were the action guy. So to us, it's dead.

When in 2005 and six and our day, we were fucking in 207 park. It was like a nightclub. There was a hundred of us. Trouble, fights, things. That's all gone. Right. Now they're just making money. We say it's dead.

It's just guys making money and just hanging out in a social club, sipping tea, and talk about the old days. We were fucking packing pistols running around living the crazy life. So to us, it's dead. Right. You know what I mean? But it actually might be a better time now to be a wise guy. I would be, I would kill it right now.

With my reputation, forget I'd be the guy. I'd be a millionaire right now. Everybody want to be around me. Yeah. But a reputation like I had and I made it through this, forget it. You know, I'd be the man. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And if look, if the politics change, I mean, I think it's a very low chance of this will happen. But if, you know, a politician like Vek Ramoswamy, the Indian guy, if he got into office, he would try to get rid. You know, he wants to do. He wants to cut the FBI by like 75%. Yeah. I love this guy. That might be a good time to become a wise guy again. He says anything.

He don't give a shit. He goes off on people. But that's becoming standard now in politics. You got to say, you got to pop. off or else people won't trust you. You know what I like now? Trump set the bar for that. You know what I like now about social media? People are finally like talking back. Like you know when you couldn't say nothing

and you get back. Now they're like, fuck you. Everyone's going off on like all this shit going on this weird shit. They're like, we don't give a fuck. We're coming back. Like, we're saying what we want now. You're not going to just silence us and do what you want. Yeah. That's what I like now about the social media. It's changing now. Yeah. Because you know, two years ago you said the wrong thing. Your Instagram's getting

taken down. Go off a bit you put something up about Hillary Clinton or somebody. You're getting shadow banned, everything. Now it's different. You can see, you know, they're letting other side speak. Yeah, yeah. I said Ivermectin once in 2021, whole YouTube channel got bombed. Yeah. Yo, we got because Johnny Eli loves Trump. So, and Johnny

and Gene says, you got to stop talking about Trump. They're shadow banning us. Our views were getting cut into quarters almost. Right. Because they were taking us out of the algorithm because he was talking about loving Trump and all that. It was crazy. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. That's why they want emergency time because then it

justifies them, you know, eliminating people. You have the people that were against Trump now or for him. I mean literally you go everywhere. They're like, no, Trump got to come back in. It's crazy. Like all the ghettos. You go to the ghettos.

They're like, what? Where the fuck is Trump, man? Black people love him now. Black people love Trump. The game changed, bro. It's crazy. And it's crazy how much you see he really cared about the country. That's what's fucking nuts.

It's like, we need the boss back. He's the back. Sammy Garvano just got posted. Trump just posted him. Imagine that. Trump just posted Sammy Gavano. What kind of world are we living in? Sammy Gavano admitted that he couldn't get him to

be corrupt because they were trying to get him in his pocket. And Trump says, I have no way. Is that right? Yeah. They were trying to pay Trump. Yeah, because he was big with the casinos, the lands or stuff. And they were trying to get him and he wouldn't do it. And then he goes, look, I'm not corrupt.

Look, this guy, the fucking mob boss is. They were trying to get me. I wouldn't do it. 19 bodies. And I still wouldn't take his money. Wow. Wow. That's pretty wild, man.

Well, look, man, plug your plug what you got to plug, dude. Yeah. So my Instagram is Gene Borrello. My book is called Born in the Life. It's a best seller now. It's in the works of becoming a modern day sopranos TV show. Modern day mafia, no one has it. I'm going to be featured in a film pony with Johnny Ely.

It's going to be playing as a father. And they wrote me in his small roles. It's still a movie. I'm happy about it. And that's really it, man. Yeah, go get his book especially. That's something because, you know, the movie will come out and do what it does. But yeah, go follow them on social media.

And then the link to that book will be in the description. Yeah, it's on my Instagram. And if you want, if you want, if you. You want autographed copies. Do you get them to DMs? I send them myself. Okay, perfect, perfect. Yeah.

And then we'll stick around if you wouldn't mind 15 minutes to a quick Patreon. Absolutely. And then, yeah, killer. I had a fantastic time talking with you. Because you're my age. You know, you're the 80s baby. That's right. The last hurrah, as they call us.

Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. Killer, man. All right, dude. Well, you guys, I appreciate you. Switch over the Patreon. And Gene.

Thanks for coming here, brother. Yes. All right. Peace.