The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - How Harlem's Baddest Gangster Survived The 80s Crack Wars, Death Penalty Case & The Hardest Fed Time

Episode Date: February 2, 2025

In this gripping interview, legendary Harlem gangster Lou Simms shares his untold story of survival in the brutal world of the 1980s crack epidemic. From running a multi-state drug empire to facing the death penalty, surviving 27 years in maximum security prison, and witnessing the transformation of Harlem, Lou holds nothing back. Lou explains how he got the name "Homicide Lou", the violent reality of federal prison, being a personal target of the U.S. Attorney General and much more. Go Support Lou! Lounge: https://www.instagram.com/harlemamor/ Book: https://neotextcorp.com/fact/once-upon-a-time-in-harlem/ This Episode Of The Connect Is #Sponsored By The Following: PRIZEPICKS! Download the app today and use code CONNECT to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup! https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CONNECT TRUE CLASSIC! Start the New Year off right with an upgraded wardrobe. Save on @trueclassic at https://trueclassic.com/connect! Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I went to jail at an early age, that was my education. I came in with blood in my eyes, but I feel threatened I'm going to react. I'm going to get me a knife. If you up here with this, then I'm going to take it up there, and I'm going to feel that that's how you want it. And that means I'm trying to kill you because I know you're trying to kill me. Lou Sims is one of the baddest gangsters in New York City underworld history. He was raised in Harlem during the 1970s heroin epidemic. It came to prominence at the height of the 1980s crack boom.

When he operated a crack cocaine enterprise stretching from New York, York, all the way down the eastern seaboard and into states as far south as Arkansas, Louisiana, and Alabama. He had the respect and admiration of Harlem's most popular drug kingpin elite, including Rich Porter, A. Z. Faisan, and Alpo Martinez. His reputation was so fearsome, in fact, that he earned the nickname Homicide Lou. And the government wanted him so bad that at his arraignment for running a continuing criminal enterprise, United States Attorney Janet Reno, working directly under Bill Clinton, showed up and encouraged the prosecution. attorney to give Lou the death penalty.

But through it all, he persevered. And after beating his death penalty case, multiple assassination attempts, and surviving 27 years in maximum security federal prison, Lou is back in the world. His autobiography, once upon a time in Harlem, is the best urban crime book I have ever read. Do me and Lou a favor and go purchase it on Amazon right now.

And for a bonus episode with Lou, go over to patreon.com slash the Connect show. Okay, without further ado, they don't make them like this guy anymore. I promise you that. Lou Sims, right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. I still have that effect from the prison. A lot of my old ways I try to suppress them.

I didn't get a lot of visits from my family. I watched my kids grow up in pictures. Had I been in the street when I went to jail, I think I probably would have got killed. I was against all odds. This is my way of survival. Hey, guys, I'm hoping you can do me a quick favor. So the majority of people watching these videos are still not subscribed to the channel. It's out about 70% right now.

If you could do me a huge favor, if you haven't already, just take one second and hit that subscribe button. I would really appreciate it. And if you are subscribed and you love the content, we're trying to improve engagement. Leave us a like and a comment on the video. We really, really appreciate it. Okay. Enjoy this episode with Lou Sims. Do you think there was more money for the people that were good at selling drugs in the heroin era?

Yeah, most definitely. Why do you think that was? Because of the Vietnam era. You know what I'm saying? If everybody came back from the heroin era. We have non-hrails and buying oil and buying a hammer on. You know what I'm trying to say? I don't know.

That's what I see it, you know what I'm saying? At that time, you know. Because during the crack air, it seems like there was crack kids everywhere. There was customers everywhere. The cocaine was like an expensive habit for dudes that was getting money back then. It wasn't for, you know, this, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, like the low budget dudes, they were shooting drugs, shooting hair on. You know what I'm saying?

and it was profitable because like I said, you probably could take a key, a heroin back then and make, you know what I'm saying? Make 10 out of them because that's how the potency it was. So, you know, it was a difference.

You know what I'm saying? Then you got to realize if you're making, if you're making a certain amount of money a day, like I heard in an interview when Nikki said his first package when he came, when he first got his first package,

he made $30 million that first month. So I'm looking at, out of that man, wow, if you made 30 million, whether you exaggerate or not, if you made 30 million in that first month, I can imagine once you got the clientele what you was making. You know what I'm trying to say? Right. Right. And think about what his people who were stepping on it and stretching it were making. Yeah. Heroin basically lifted your family out of poverty. The drug period. Drugs period. You know what I mean? It's crazy. Because you grew up on 112th between 7th and 8th. There's high rises there.

I mean, it's unrecognizable for when you grew up. But you grew up in a type of poverty that I don't think you can find even in the worst parts of New York anymore. I grew up in poverty. Like the book would describe what was back then as far as poverty. Like when I grew up in poverty, I grew up in a tenant building and a building that had an elevator never work. I never remember the elevator work. We had to walk up six flights and stairs. that building

didn't sometimes didn't used to have one running water in it so we used to have to go outside and with pots and pans to get water from the fire hydrant and imagine dragging that up to six places

but I was a kid then you know what I mean so you know I've seen poverty I've seen poverty where you know what I'm saying my mom's we used to go to the we used to go to welfare which they used to have

down in the projects which was forced the projects in the basis And we used to have to take like two shopping costs because it was 10 of us to get the food. And they used to get a big can of peanut butter or a little can of spams and stuff like that. And I'm all of my brothers and all of us. They used to have me. I was a little kid at the time.

They used to have me. Whereas we'd go in the supermarket. That supermarket had always been there on Linux Avenue on 112. So we used to go in the supermarket. And Linux Avenue, we used to go in the supermarket to steal the shopping bags. So people don't know that. You know what I'm saying? We got welfare.

So we used to go down there and pack it up like, came for the supermarket down that way because we got to come that way anyway. But my mom's back then, you know, I couldn't go in the refrigerator as I wanted to. You know what I'm trying to say? I couldn't get a handful of cookies. When I asked for a cookie, I got one cookie. I asked for ice cream. I get one scoop of ice cream.

That's why I like a bunch of sweets now. Christmas time come, I got one police car with a long cord on it with the batteries. I never got. So I was pushing the car instead of running with the batteries. So, you know, so we could move up. But I remember those times. You know what I'm saying? I remember them times.

So we grew up in property that then. There's no going to the fridge when you're hungry. No, no. There's no. Oh, I feel hungry. Only thing like dessert that I can remember that was a lot of was jello pudding with the fruit cocktail in it. And, um, and, um, and, uh, what's it called that pudding? Yeah.

The, the chocolate and the, uh, light pudding, vanilla pudding. But that's probably why I don't like it now. You know what I'm saying? That's why I don't like. I don't like. You're the youngest of 10 kids. Right. Were all 10 of you in that apartment at one time or had people moved out?

Yeah, one time we was all there. Wow. No, all of them was there. Except my sister Ruby. She was always, every since I can remember when she was, you know, because she got kids that's my age,

me and my nephew grew up as brothers. Yeah. That kind of poverty's got to scar you for life, I feel like. I mean, you know. Have you gotten over that, like the fear of like returning to that?

I'm not, I'm not saying that I, I fear returning to that because, like, now and days, I'm more prepared for that than anything, you know what I'm saying? But what I do, like, when I say it scarred me, it scarred me. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm a big kid. Like I said, I like ice cream and candy because I didn't get a lot of it when I was a kid.

I like amusement parks, you know what I'm trying to say? So when a female is dealing with me, she'd be like, yo, this nigga like museums and going to the, it's romantic to them, you know what I'm trying? But to me, to the average dude, he'd be like, yo, this dude doing some. corny stuff, you know what I mean? But I like doing that due to the fact I didn't get a lot of it when I was a kid unless I was going on a Fields Day trip. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. And that must of like seeing your mom's struggle like that, that helplessness. Do you think that added to like that rage, that fire that you had in you? Because you had brolic from a very young age. The book talks about like it was I think the riots

during the blackouts of 77. You're about like 11 or 12 years old. And that was like a seminal moment where your mind switched and you were like, I'm going to become a gangster. Like, I'm going to harness violence to get what I need. Did you think like that helpness, that poverty and that helplessness when you were very young contributed to that? With just being a gangster.

Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of times, like I tell people to the day, especially with my program, when I give a speech or I talk, I go into the youth programs and I talk to the youth, we didn't have those opportunities that they get now. You know what I'm saying? So, you know what I'm saying? We have run errands for the number man and certain things like that.

If you read the book, you know what I'm saying? I was one of those things that I really got a fill of money doing things for the rubber. The number man is watching people go by. But at the same time, like, I really, I witnessed poverty, but it wasn't, it ain't really was on me for, like, I was from like six years old, from like my bond all the way to six years old.

then things start getting better. You know what I'm trying to say? Because my brother Kite, he must have went in the street like 69, 70. You know what I'm saying? So now we're getting some food on the table. You know what I'm saying? So now we're getting, you know, certain things in the house.

Like, you know, we had a long high-file. I remember when we first got the long, high-file opponent set. You know what I'm saying? With the record play and the 8-track. And I remember when we got that, I remember when we first got our floor model. But we went from a little small TV to all that.

So now, you know what I'm saying? as it's coming along, I'm like, yo, but I never, like me, me going, me being in the streets coming up in the street, I used to look at other dudes and idolize dumb. But when I'm among my friends, they idolize my brother. So I really, really didn't pay attention that I had a household name in my house. You know what I'm trying to say? I didn't notice like, because, you know, that's my brother. So I used to see him flying all that stuff and he'd give me a couple dollars, but I never, you know what I'm saying, looked at him as a household name. I used to go to the school and I should be we used to talk about certain dudes about who was getting money who had to

flyers girls and all the rest of that stuff but they used to always bring his name up like you know what saying yeah it was your brother kite for people that don't know his brother kite was early in the smack game right this is 69 70 and heron is like taken over Harlem these are this is the time of frank Lucas and nicky barns of course all these names that we know now but your brother was also one of these getting money dudes. Right. But see, like the household, you know what I'm saying? I would like to say that, you know, he's my better half.

Even though I look at it now for me to be a kid to grow up like that, you know, trying to say it was wrong, but that was just the way, you know, trying to say it was taught. That was the only way he probably knew, you know what I'm saying? But I got a lot of character risks that he had and wanted to be like him. But at the same time, when I started getting older, it started changing. You know what I'm saying? Like when I used to see him, you know, I don't know.

I went through the same thing. He went through from robbing, you know, trying to say sticking up stores and all the rest of that stuff. Where he did, you know what I'm saying, to selling drugs. But at the same time, I used to want to have the cars, the girls, the jury like him and everything like that. But as I got older, the jury didn't, you know what I'm saying? The jury in clothes wasn't too much. You know, I was like, I can do all that. But I do like calls.

You know what I'm saying? And one day I sat back and I thought about it. I was like, man, you know, why I like cars so much? because I try to figure myself out. And when I realize it's because I never had hot wheel sets and stuff like that. So now when I get a car, I automatically throw some rims on and I dress it up

because now it's back into everything we plays back to my childhood because I didn't have that much of my childhood. You know what I'm saying? But I can remember that, you know, now I went from that just have my mother taking me to Bloomstein, which was like, Blumstain in the 125th Street is like the only white area

was back then that, you know, Jews and on the white owns like that. But, you know, I remember my mom's taking me to them stores like that, buying me some sneakers I didn't want. I used to want pro cats. I get P.F. Lies. But I remember a time night, after the 70s kind of meant, like 71, 72, now it's me and my nephew, we dress in a light, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. My sister, Ruby, you know what I'm saying? Right. You know, she got us dressing on light. Ruby was a hustler, too. Her older sister. But she was in hustling back then, though. Okay.

She would get on, though. She had a spot in the South Bronx. I believe. Yeah, that was like in the late 70s early 80s. And she was selling hair on. Hair on and angel dust.

Right. Because there was an angel dust craze too. Right. Your brother Kite, did he have one of these good plugs like Nikki Barnes? Like who was hitting him off? Was he part of that?

Back then, I don't even know because like I said, I was a kid back then. Of course. You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, all I can remember, like, you know, I started out

hustling with my brother Smoke. And it just, it just, it just so happened by, chance. And smoke was like 15 years older than me. You know what I'm saying? It just happened by chance. Like, we stand on a block and I'm on

a block. I never forget I had a jeans suit on and it was hot. So he put some drugs in my pocket and shit like that. You know what I'm saying? The police came, made everybody move, but they ain't searched nobody but you put in there. Every since then, I started working hustling with him. So I went from a Han Fish Street from selling

nickel bags on Columbus Avenue to him getting in trouble down there that we went to 113th. I always had that block since the 70s. Since the late 70s, I always had a spot in that block. But that's when we really started getting some money.

So I went from like, like back then, me being like 12, 13 years old, $50 was a lot. You know what I'm saying? So if I got 250 and five days, that I mean I can go to AJ lessons and get me a whole outfit. I'm talking about a coat, pants,

and a pair of British walkers. So now, you know what I'm saying? But, um... That's a fortune for a 12-year-old kid. Right. So I went from that. So now we're on a 113 screen and he's giving me more money now. You know what I say?

So I was doing that and I was doing a few, like every now and then another man to call me and asked me to do my favor, I'd do it. But I went from that to that. You know what I'm saying? So everybody, even my baby malls, the girls that I mess with, when they see, when we talk now, they'd be like, man, I would have never thought she was that age because the way I dressed and the way I carry myself back then because I was always hanging out with my brother and older dudes.

You know what I mean? So you were hustling selling dope, selling heroin, at 11, 12 years old. Right. I started out, like, when I started out on 100, on 105th, I was like 11, 12 years old. Wow. But holding them, yeah.

And were you holding it on you or did you have a little crew under you? No. Or were you just going hand to hand? The block used to be so crowded that, you know what I'm saying? Me being little, you know what I'm saying? When he bring me customers, I could just shoot him out. You know what I'm saying? Have them on me.

So the police ain't really paid no mind to a kid like me, you know what I'm saying? Right. You know what I'm saying? But when I got to 13th street, it was different. You know what I'm saying? So I had to run through the backyard because, you know, one yard, one street, go to the next street, you can run through the backyards in that street. And they had a lot of bands of building.

So I used to play, I used to hustle there and playing there. But once the stuff, once we really start building a clientele there, it used to be so much because you got to remember my brother Smoke was a hammer on an addict, too, you know what I'm saying? So he knew what brings the, what attracts the dope things in the morning. So a lot of things I learned, he didn't. teach me. I just learned by on my own just watching him. So when we used to be up in the middle of night and he's cutting

up the dope, I used to just watch. You know what I'm saying? So he'll bag him, I'll tape him. You know what I'm saying? So now when we get out of the morning, we never made halves because you used to sell $25 a half, $50 quarters. And as it goes uptown, they start charging more. But on 13th, we used to sell $50. But we never made

halves. So I used to come out, that's why I always had that hustle getting out early in the morning. You know what I said? So we used to get out six o'clock in the morning before the son come up. And he used to come back with the customers so they can get that first shot. And I break the halves down so they can run the customers. Are you going to school still while you do this? Yeah, I was going to school.

Wow. So you were going to work a shift and they go off to school after? You know, most dudes like that when we went, if you ain't got a lot of work that you're trying to get rid of, you're going to come out late. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So now when we came to third, I would like, do all through. I went to school because I started selling weed first. You know what I'm saying?

I just saw the small bamboo dollar, the big bamboo of dollar 50s. Sometimes I go down to Avenue of America. That's like about Times Square. We're doing rush hour and I'll sell it to the businessman down there, you know what I'm saying, real quick. And then I come back up with a pocket for the singles, you know what I'm saying? So that got me, buy me an outfit, got me in a dollar parties, you know what I'm saying? Then I can have a bunch of singles. like I got a lot of money and act like I got a lot of money from girls in there, you know?

Yeah. But you got to remember back thing, a lot of things was cheap. So you had pro-cares was $15. Leaves, Farmer jeans, and Lee jeans was $15. The coat was $15. Then you get a sweatshirt for $5. You know what I said? So I just take one quarter and buy all that.

And then when they came out with the eyes on, you know, as I really started getting a filling a couple of dollars, for me to spend $50, it was a nothing because that was just one quarter. So if I go buy a girl a whole outfit Like I said ProKez was 15 hours I bought her up here eyes on shirt 15 hours and the eyes on shirt is 15 hours And I got five hours old So I get out of the palm palm shot

I mean socks So now when I give it to her friends like oh man You're freaking on you you know what I'm saying Back then as an early age It was cheaper to trick back then huh I mean you know like I said That was just one quarter You know what I wasn't I wasn't really feeling it

Like that It's fascinating Like children you're a child. Children from the hood were treating these heroin and weed operations like a paper route. Like you go get some money in the morning, then you go off to school, and then you go get some money after school. See, I was crazy.

The thing about it, when I start going to junior high school, when I start going to junior high school, that's when I stopped really going to school. You know what I'm saying? I wouldn't go to school unless I had a brand new outfit. You know what I'm trying to say? You know, I'm talking about my head to toe, like, you know what I'm saying? brand new sneakers, brand new shoes,

British walkers or playboys, I had to have something brand new to go there and money. And then when I did go, I stayed at like 12 o'clock and I'll leave. You know what I'm saying? Go hustle. What is that about, you know, the black community,

especially back then, like having to look the flyest. Is it to separate yourself from the people that are poor? Like the worst thing was being poor, so you wanted to look different than everybody else that didn't have shit? Was that the mentality?

You know, like I said, I didn't, I wasn't afforded certain things when I was a kid. And when I went to like public school, I used to be wanting, you know, certain things that other kids had that had a mother and a father in a home that had two jobs that was, and had a small families that had. Spring weekends are all about family, sunshine, and evenings on the patio. Before everyone arrives, I stopped by my local total wine and more to grab a great bottle to share. With such a wide selection and the lowest prices, it's easy to find something amazing for everyone to enjoy. If you're not sure what to pick, their friendly guides can help. Find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and More. Shop total wine and more in store or online.

Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B-21. But as I went to junior high school, it was more of a, it was a, it was a, it was, more that I had to be fly to be, you know, to be attracted. I thought so with the girls back then because, you know, back then it was the light skin dudes. They could come in with tight pants and looking crazy,

but the girls was on the on the light skin dudes, you know what I'm saying? So I had to come through with a nice blowout, you know what I'm saying, a couple of dollars, bottoms of French rides and soda and all that shit from the truck that was outside the car, so outside the school. So, you know, I had to keep up that appearance. So I was like, man, I ain't going to school unless I got another outfit. And that's how I see the trend as have been today, whereas if you take a picture in certain things, you can't wear that no more. You know what I'm trying to say?

Me, I do. I know, I'm not wasting a bunch of money on no clothes. Like I said, I like cars. You know what I'm saying? I got a few jewelry pieces, but I don't wear them because I'm not into jewelry. I believe that jewelry and furze is for women. You know what I'm trying to say? I'm not getting my fingernails gloss.

None of that. Nah, that's for women. You know what I'm saying? You see me? I got callousins in my house. You know what I'm saying? Right. I'm still like, oh, I'm still like on a man time.

But back in the day, you're right, back in the 70s and early 80s, you know, you see that with like the pimps. They were dressed in furs. They were dressed like women. Like they had these big furry top hats and, you know, the doddy gold rings. Like ring on every finger. Right, right. Yeah. Would you consider yourself a good drug dealer?

The book makes it seem like you were more of an administrator, an enforcer. Yeah, I have my share of selling drugs. Like I said, I was taught from the beginning. And so I learned by just looking how to cut it from an early age. And, you know what I'm trying to say? So once I get a hang of something, that's, I'm off and running. You know what I'm saying? I was like, every since I was a kid, they would say that I, as you say,

as you say, administrator because, you know, I always orchestrated a lot of things. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like before we was hustling or I was selling weed, I was robbing and stealing. You know what I'm trying to say? Not with a gun. I'm talking about going to supermarket. stealing coffee, pamper,

whatever the selling, or selling the prizes as we go door to door, whatever sell, we'll sell. We await, we await early in the morning to the,

the newspaper, man, dropped the newspapers, and we are still lows. But we used to, my main hustle was to go to the movies at that time because you got to remember the 125th Street

was the place to be and to go in the movie theater. You know what I'm saying? And watch the movies because you got lots of like five movies for one price, at the same time. When we was robbing and stealing out the supermarket,

we'd come back and rob the people that was packing bags in the, you know what I'm saying? So we always organized that stuff. Then I used to go to city colleges to steal everything out the cafeteria and sell it to the stores from straws, spoons and all that stuff like that. So I always had somewhat of a hustle. And one of the main hustles that I had as a kid, like when my brother Smoke had left and went to prison, you know, I had the block to myself, but I'd never have really,

really had the work to sustain, to keep it running the way I wanted. So sometimes we'll be out there. We'll sell some dummies and just take the money and go to the movies. So, you know, if I sell $50, if I sell $250,000, so we can go to the movies. We can do like a couple of us who sell it. We can go to movies and have fun, buy so we'd and go in there, eat right, and know what I'm saying, go to Nathis and all that.

But I had gimmicks as a kid growing up, you know what I'm saying? Because you've got to remember if you under 15, you get locked up, your mother come get you. Right. You know what I'm saying? So as a kid, if somebody get me anywhere from 50 to 100 and quarters,

you know what I'm trying to say? And it's Christmas time. Ain't no way, you know what I'm trying to say, we're going to be flying, have a pocket full of money to get everybody that we want to give gifts offer that money right there.

You know what I mean? So we only make it like anywhere from 15 or $20 off a quarter. So what we would do is that we would call the police on each other, you know what I'm saying? I'll sell like 50 quarters or 80 quarters

and put you on the block with like five or six quarters. and not be a call of police on each other. It's not that we snitching, but those that's looking at it, it's a gimmick, meaning that, okay, me and you partner not be like,

yo, it's your turn to take this hit, you know what I'm saying? So you'll get locked up. They'll lock you up, but when they give you a paper, it'll say you got locked up for heroin, but don't say how much you got locked up for. So when your mother come get you,

if she beat you or not, you know, some dude, like, man, my mom's going to beat my ass, you know what I'm saying? But at the same time, when you get locked up, they give you that paper. So now when you get,

when you come out, split up because I take this back and say, you know, we got money to pay for 50 quarters, but the other quarters he got busted with. So you're beating, you were beating your connect. Right. Right. You tell the connect, hey, he got locked up.

Sorry, we can only pay you for so much because the cops got the rest. But it wasn't nothing. Like a lot of times, you know, it was so much hammer on and so much going on at that time that they used to, oh, they didn't care nothing about that. They just wanted to move their stuff. So losing 50 quarters, they ain't nothing because they don't hate it.

You got to remember how many keys they can make off of one key. So they ain't really caring about that, especially, you know what I'm saying? If you got good workers that's selling that fast for them. So now we have that little extra 50 orders to ourselves. So we had certain gimmicks like that that we had, you know, and staying established, you know what I mean? But you turned to kind of robbing and... When I had no drugs. Right.

And this was the late 70s. And this is when you kind of go, you basically formed like a robbery team. Right. That's how I would call it. I mean, you know, most of the times, like sometimes when I used to go. go up. See, my brother Kite, you know, I'm trying to say. One thing, he taught me a lot, and I appreciate the values in what you installed to me, you know, I'm trying to say, because he took care of the whole family. And one of the things he did told me is that if you get money, make sure you take a look for

the family, whatever you do. So I always looked out for my moms and all. Like, like, when I did came home, when I did change my clothes, because I stayed in Jersey ever since I came home in 88, but when I did come to change closing her house, I made sure she had a number of money or when she wanted to go to Land Exeter like that. But when I realize now, I wish I would have gave her more than that, you know what I'm trying to say?

But I thought I was looking out at that time. But like I said, that was one of the things he installed to me and one of the things he was like, yo, I'm not taking care of you. You know what I'm trying to say? You know, you're going to get out and get your own. And so when I didn't have work, you know what I said?

I get a couple of bundles from him and me and his partner, little brother, we used to be a poppy Christian, we used to be in the park on 40th Street and we had selling in that and I make a couple dollars that or I go to the Bronx. But most of the time when, you know,

all over the Bronx, I used to just get work because sometimes I couldn't work out my sister's spot because that's hers. You know what I'm saying? So I don't, me and my nephew, the hustle all the way and every way and the Bronx. So, you know, I know the bronze, like I know Harlem. I don't hustle on featherbed, 183rd,

College Avenue. I don't hustle it all over there, you know what I mean? But at the same time, there robberies up there too, disco, fever, and all the rest of that stuff like that. You know, you had all the older dudes that was older than me. That was their territory too raw.

So when they see me up there, they used to try to put me out. I'm like, nah, if you're either going to put me down on your lick, I'm doing my own, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you were, were you pulling sticks? Or are you doing stickups? Now you got a gun. Yeah, because that was like,

um, one of my, one of my first cases that we caught, It was like the first time me and my nephew went to Rack's Island was for Robbie. But, you know what I'm saying? That means robbing. Like one day, we just went on a robbery street. You know what I'm saying? We had a car.

We went on a robbery street. I'm talking about taking air rings. The big boxes back then, you know, the big JBC boxes. You know what I'm trying to say? They was like $500. So you could sell them just for like $200, $300. So that was money. You get like four or five with them.

You got a couple hundred. So we went on a robbery street, but we messed around and got busted. But being that he had a juvenile case, he said, Joe, just get ahead. Just look out for me. I got you. So I went home. And he went to juvenile. Wow.

That was our first time on Rackers Island. Wow. How are we there for? I stayed for like that first week. You know what I'm saying? But he wound up going to juvenile. Yeah. Yeah, he went to juvie for that.

So you're doing hold-ups. Did you do anything major? Are you hitting any banks? Are you... One of the, like, oh, one of the, one of the, one of the cases, that I had caught in Manhattan was a grocery store, you know what I'm saying?

But what's crazy is that you know, like when I started, when I moved to the Lincoln Projects, I started running with a few dudes that was robbing over there already, so they already had the reputation for robin. So I went, I used to be with this dude named Warren G over there, you know what I'm saying? And the thing about

it, me and him met by just getting high, and then we found out, you know, I knew they was robbing, and they didn't have no guns at the time. So me and him, we did a robbery and then we just kept going all and old. We want to rob everything on Lenox Avenue. You know what I'm saying? From the pieces shop to the shop, I mean, the McDonald's that's still there and all that.

We bought all that. So you're running in there with ski masks? No, holding them up. That joint like that. You know what I'm saying? We just come in and pull the guns, jump straight over the counter. Right. You know what I mean?

You know? Yeah. And that was back in Harlem, you know, all over the slums in New York back then. That was like a hustle. Like some people didn't even sell drugs. they just robbed. Right, because they probably didn't know how to sell drugs and need somebody orchestrated to her.

You had a lot of people that's like that, that's not, how you say, with a broadened mind to do certain things. Like me, myself, like I said, I learned how to do a lot of things because when I went to jail at an early age, that was my education. You know what I'm saying?

I listened to all the old times, they stories from, you know what I'm saying? you know, from robbery, kidnapping and all the rest of that stuff. So I already had in my mind, you know, look, when I got home, it wasn't my intention to do that, but when I got home,

I was like, you know, you got to remember when I left in the early age, I was 16 years old. So everybody that getting money when I came home wasn't nobody when I left the street. You know what I'm trying to say? Okay, yes.

This is a seminal moment. So in 1980, you went away? No, 83. I'm sorry, 83. But I got locked up and 80, 80, You won my first time on Rackis Island. For robbery. Right.

Me and my nephew. Okay. But then you caught, you went away for five in 83. Right. What was that charge? A tip murder on robbery. Can you go into that a little bit? Well, what happened was, I think it's in the book, too.

What happened was, um, we had, me and Wong J had did a supermarket on, um, on Columbus. I think it was like 90-something street. And the thing about it, the person that we took with him, unprofessional, You know what I'm trying to say? And what we used to do, we used to like, it's like a booth that you go in there, that they keep the money in it, and it comes in like a plastic with the money laid out. So, you know, we know where the money's at. So we used to get the manager soon and then.

And once you see me get the manager, take them in there, you know, to get the cash register. So me and Warren Gee did that at that time. We used to just go by herself. I get the cash reserves or he get the booth or switch on, whichever one. But we had this one person that needed a coat and all the rest of this stuff that was around the way. but anyway, he wound up taking the trades, you know, the trades that's in the cash register.

Yeah. He pulled a shotgun, I'll just click it and start, and I'm looking at him because he like froze. But then when I started like, yo, what you're doing? He started getting the trades in the shop. But you know, back then they had the big shopping back to Brown shopping back.

And then when we jumped out there, we jumped in the cab. So when we're coming out, I'm looking in the back, I'm like, the fuck you got the trades for. So I'm throwing the trades out as we go on town, hitting cars and everything. So when we get up there,

when we get up, we get back to the projects and shit, we split the money and everything, and I'm mad of him. But anyway, we went to Paragon and get him a coat and all the rest of this. But when, you know, we had a nice little lick. I can't remember the amount of it was, but I know, I said, Joe, man, I'm going to flip this money right here. So right then and then, dust was the thing that was going on in the Lincoln. So we went and brought some dust, but it wasn't going right. So I went to my sister house in the Bronx because she had dust too. And the dude that they, I gave it to work for her. He was going to slide.

it didn't with her. But long story short, I'm still downtown trying to do my thing right here. And when we, so one of the dudes that chipped in with me on the dust, he went up there, he was like, yo, I need a couple of hours. I said, yo, go up there and get that joint right head. I'm doing mine down here. But anyway, when he went up to the Bronx, he got into an argument with the dude, you know what I'm saying? So I'm mad now that I had to come downtown and go up town with him. And I start talking a dude, and he started talking reckless. Like, yo, man, such and such a shit. I'm doing your favorite. blah, blah, blah, and I just got mad and flipped on him. And I robbed him for my shit back in my sister's shit, and I shot him.

And before I could get back downtown, they knew my whole name and everything. Wow. He got shot and told the whole thing. Yeah, he told the whole thing. He's like, yo, Lou Sims shot. I heard him before I even got to it because we're going down. She stayed on McCons and Harrison, so I'm heading toward Jerome, like the train part. But I heard him when he said, when they was like, yo, what y'all doing out there shooting?

And he was like, Yo, Lou shot me. And I was like, oh, shit. So I know now I know that she knew. But at the same time, what happened was when he did that, when the police came, he gave my whole government name. So once he, when they were like, yo, the police looking for you about it.

So I stopped staying at my motherhouse and start staying at my grandmother's house in the polar grounds. But at the same time, when they say they stopped looking, I start going back home. You know what I was sneaking in and changed my clothes anyway. And one of my baby moms stayed in the polar grounds. too. So, you know, I had assets to different buildings in the polo grounds. My sister stayed in four.

My baby mother stayed in three. My grandmother stayed in one. So I had different, you know, if they had them coming, I could run out this way and go to this building. If they chase and I can go on this building, got somewhere to go. But the thing is... And the cops and the detectives got a hard on for you. Right. Let's see. What happened was that day when they told me they stopped looking for me,

I came out the house. So I'm going to the cleaners to get my clothes out of the cleaners. And I'm also buying some groceries from my mom. She sent me to the store. But when I see them in the car, I'm getting ready to run, but they ain't buzzed. They just looked up and this start came with it. So I went to the store. And when I came back, when I came back, that's when they grabbed me.

I'm like, oh, shit. So they didn't even take me to the preaching. They took me straight to 100 Sinner Street because I had a case in the bronze suit. I had a case in the bronze suit. So now I got two cases to fight. So you're not getting out. So after this, you're not. I had like two cases job because within that time, like, I got a ring in Manhattan court.

The next day, they took me to bronze court. You do what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. So now you've been heading this way for some years now. You're what, 18? It's 83. All right, you guys, it's that time. You know about prize picks by now.

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of the robberies i just had that shooting in the robbery for the bronze so now but now you're in the pen you go i think you go to el mira that's my first uh what was your how what do they sentence you on total what was your four to 12 a four to five years wow that's a big range but you know what I mean but you know some people do their whole, their whole, like, my nephew that grew up with me like Danny Blue, he grew up with me as kids. He had a 6 to 18. He wound up doing a whole 18 just whaling out. Yeah, right.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, one thing about it, you know, prison can either break you or make you, you know what I'm trying to say. And I guess from my background period because, you know, we grew up in a house fighting. So me, even when he wasn't dead, you got to realize me fighting, I learned how to fight from an early age because my sister's bigger than me, my, everybody older than me. So you know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? So we had to fight from the early age. So I guess like, you know, when him coming from juvenile to back to Rackens Island, then going upstate, he already had

that mentality in him like, yo, you know, survival skills, you know. So he just ran his bit up. What do you think that first stretch did to you? Like how did it contribute to, you know, your criminal career and like how did you change? Like I said, um, the institutions they taught me it was like an education to me you know what I'm trying to say? Like I left the street

knowing how to sell drugs and robbery but not just perfected the craft on different levels when I went to jail and I always tell people like you know what I'm trying to say had L.A. and Richon them did a bid, had kids

and been in the street before earlier like I was you know what I'm trying to say they probably would have, you know what I'm saying? I had more survival skills because not to say that they didn't have survival skills they just let a lot, when I look at their history,

they let a lot of things lack that I, I'm not going to let lack, you know what I'm trying to say? So if I feel threatened, I'm going to react. You know what I'm trying to say? You know, I feel threatened I'm going to act, react because I witnessed so much, so many people like, like that was coming out of property or just, one day he broke and the next day he gets money

and the next thing, you know, he kidnapped or killed, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, man, you know what I'm saying? You know, before I get in the, and one of them trunks, yo, you got to kill me. You know what I'm saying? Leave me right here. For sure. You're going to fight and I'm going to scream and everything, you know what I mean.

Better than your family finds you on the street than, you know, in the back of a car in Virginia. But even, you know, when I came home in 88, you know what I'm saying, I moved to Jersey. And I used to tell my girl at that time, like, yo, like I used to make her race from our house to uptown. You know what I'm saying? So she had known how to drive and move. Wow. You know what I'm saying? but at the same time,

I just tell her, yo, if they, I just tell her, yo, if they catch you, I ain't got no money to pay for you. You know, I'm trying to say. It was a joke, but at the same time, I was dead serious because while I'm paying for somebody that, you know, I'm trying to say, you know, I'm trying to say, she ain't even know half of the things.

She used to think it was a joke in when I was playing. So a lot of times when I just say, yo, don't let nobody follow you home, bow, bow, bow, bow, so she knew. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, where we lived at, we can take anyone in the Jersey tunnels. Like, we take George Washington,

Holland or Lincoln and come out, you know what I'm saying? So she knew that Joe, if you don't take the same routes, you know what I'm trying to say? But she was a correction officer anyway. You're being wrong. No, my female that I was with at that time before I got locked up. She was a correction officer. So, you know what I'm saying?

She wasn't naive to a lot of things. But even though people may think she's a square, but she's not, you know what I'm saying? No, those corrections officers are gangsters motherfucker. They're dirty, you know? Yeah. it's interesting because you went away, depending on how you look at it, you going away in 83 was like

the best thing and the worst thing that could have happened because on one hand it molded you into this really shrewd gangster that knew how to survive, but you missed getting it on the ground floor of crack, which was about to hit the next year when you go

home. So you get out in 88 and by this time all these teenagers, guys like me know Alpo, A-Z, Rich Porter, these guys are all rich. They're all millionaires

off crack. So that, you felt like you had to play catch-up a little bit. Right. That's what I did. I had to play catch-up because I'm looking at it. I'm like,

man, I can't wait to get me put some jewelry jewels on my neck. But it ain't take long anyway because I slept on, I slept on, I kept, what happened when I had supposed to

had came home in in December. December 2nd. My co-defendant came home December 18. But when he came home December 18. I came home

December 2nd. I opposed I came on December 2nd, but my sister had got paroled to my mother house so they couldn't let me

two parolees couldn't be in the same so I had to go to my grandmother's house. So I slept on the couch for 30 days. You know what I'm trying to say before I got,

you know what I'm saying? Because when I came home, money was so fast I was like, man, money get pushed down like that because the first person that gave me some money

the second day that I came home was my brother Kite. He was going to the funeral. I never forget. So I was at my sister house and he was like, yo, I'm going to a funeral come to the bar later on. You know what I'm trying to say? But anyway, he threw me like four stacks. But I didn't count the money.

You know what I said? I went straight to the last street straight to 20th Street. But at the end, I was like, man, I'm still in the same money. You know what I'm like, damn. So I just bust the rebel band and start count one. I'm like, oh shit, this is a stack. So I had $4,000. but it was like $3,000 and a little over when I came back, I was like, oh shit.

I said, Joe, I'm going to buy me a used car, but I was on the couch. And so when I went that night, I went to the Ebony Lounge. That's where everybody used to be before they go to the red parrot or whatever they used to get something to eat there. And when I got there, everybody was hitting me off of money.

So when I got home, I was like, wow, man, I had, you know, I was still living like, you know what I'm saying, China Boston. So every day I was going out to buy me an outfit to catch up on clothes, but I'm like, yo, I want to go to jewelry, Apollo gyms, you know what I'm saying? A little, just the toy joints like that, you break up.

I brought that before they put me onto the Diamond District. So this just gives you an idea of how much money there was in crack, that your friends could give you $4,000 like it was nothing. Right. Because they make that in half an hour. Right. What was it, do you think that was the difference, the big difference between the crack and the heroin era was,

there was just so many more users and way more people selling it? Or what do you think the biggest difference between, those two different drug economies was. Well, what I'm trying to say that if I had, if I had to be in that era right there and knowing that, uh, me coming home and that, that Harron era,

it wouldn't have been no $4,000. It would have been like more like, yo, here's $50,000. Get on your feet. Some shit like that. That's what I, you know,

I'm trying to say. Because I, as I read cases from back then, I read certain dudes came home and got put on, dudes just like, yo, here's this, this right. dudes that told on their case.

they were like, yo, I met him through this and this what he gave me, you know what I mean? Stuff like that. The guys that were now like famous in the neighborhood by 88, Alpo, Rich. In the book you mentioned that Rich was, Rich Porter was the, and that, by the way, that's Mackay Fifer's character and paid him full. He's the reason paid in full and rap, dipset and all these, all these New York rappers are the reason that like the mainstream is kind of aware of these characters. But I think Rich Porter, you mentioned, is the one who had like the plug plug. He was getting powder from like Colombians. I wouldn't say that.

I wouldn't say that because one thing about, one thing about Harlem, you know what saying, if you're not in the street and you don't really know the streets, people always go to one person or the person that they know about that's getting money. Rich was on the street. He was getting money. But you had a lot of other dudes that was getting money too, that was doing a crack era too. That was on then at the same level. but he was more flambane.

You got to remember he came out the hammer on all the way through. So he made it all the way through and came through. You know what I'm saying? But like A-Z and Alpo. And Alpo. Before I left the street, I didn't know them. I never heard of them until I was in the jail. And I'm trying to figure out, yo, who are these dudes that's coming up like that?

Because only one I know was rich. I'm saying? Why were they so well-known? I guess because they do anything in Harlem. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But you, like I said, you know, like even in the heroin era, the first person they named back then is Nikki Barnes and Frank Lucas. And I get upset, especially when I was doing my bid, like, yo, why you always got to name that type of character, dude?

Why you don't name somebody else? You know what I'm saying? That's because a lot of people outside New York don't know of these people that was getting money in there because you had dudes that was on the same level, driving Rose Royces and getting money to. You know what I'm saying? That this was big. You know what I mean? Yeah. What was the key to making money?

I've, you know, talked to Cavario, and he really broke down the economics of it. And it sounds like even though a lot of people from the hood sold crack during the boom, most of them didn't make any money. And forget the ones who went to prison or got killed. Like, most people just didn't make any money because they didn't have the plug. What was like the key to getting rich? It's not even about a plug because you can start all.

selling a little one just grow, grow, grow. You know what I'm trying to say? You know what I'm saying? If you start out selling a little and you ain't buying no clothes, no nothing because you're just trying to make anywhere from 10 grams to you reach a key, you can do that. But some people ain't hustlers, you know what I'm saying? They don't know how to save their money.

Because you got to realize a lot of people went out of state to get money because they couldn't do it in the town. Because when you go out of state, you got to remember you're doubling and tripling your money over what the New York prices is. Right. So regardless of you can't hustle or not, you're still getting over that. that dime that you get in. So now, you know what I'm saying?

You get a piece of, you get a piece of a dollar. You know what I'm saying? But as the crack era started to fade out, and they went from selling nickels to dimes and nickels to $3 bags, $2, $2 bottles, and $3 bottles, you know, the money started getting, you know what I'm saying, slower and slower. So, you know, crack started to well out. Not that it wasn't a lot of crack heads, but it's just that the money,

you know what I'm saying? It wasn't, you know, you selling them little bottles. So dudes started branch out of time. You know what I'm saying? So that was one of the reasons that I went out because once you get a, once you get a whole bunch of crack, you know, you want to, I mean, Coke, you want to, you want to, you got to move it. Yeah, of course. So if you go from selling a key every eight hours to selling $2.50 every two days or something like that, you know what I'm saying? The money ain't adding up no more, you know what I'm trying to say, especially the lifestyle you already grew, you already grew to, you know what I'm saying?

Because you got to remember, I went to buy a pie or a pile. Jello Jim jury to going to the Diamond District. Like, you know, like I said, I was another into jury, but if you see some of my pitches down there, you see the ice-style pitches and appendix and it was heavy jury, you know what I'm saying? It was heavy, 100 penny weights and stuff like that. So this guy that you meet Leon Fat Boy, Brown,

he was a, he kind of changed your life when you came home. I wouldn't say that. In terms of elevating you in the drug game, though. No, I wouldn't say that. I was already good, you know, trying to say, My brother, like when I first came home, I started asking my brother, Kite again. Okay. And he had a building on a 129th.

Everybody know about the spots on 129th. And I had an eight-hour shift, you know what I'm saying? So I, in an eight-hour ship, I probably do like a whole joint and have a few bags left over out of that joint. So you know what I'm saying? That's all the eight-hour ship because we kept a line all the way around the corner, you know what I'm saying? Only one that wasn't really popping that with the last ship, the night shift, you still had a heavy crowd, but it wasn't that type of crowd

when you got to have two or three people in the building, you know what I'm saying, pushing two or three people pushing them lines like that. So you sell a whole key and a shift? Eight hours. Wow. I have like four or five bags left over. And those are in like nickel vials?

Right. Nichols. Wow. So tens of thousands of transactions a week. Right. Unbelievable. And were you supervising the pitchers, the people actually passing the crack

through the door and stuff like that? Wow. You had the lookout and you had the pictures. And so you were making good money working with your brother. Yeah, definitely. I mean, back then, like, right now I can't tell you with none of that money I was making the with, you know what I'm saying? Nobody can't.

When I got it, it was spent. You know what I'm saying? I started out trying to hang out with him when I first came home. But I was like, man, I'm not really into the no party scene. And, you know what I'm saying, dressing up like that. So, you know, every day, every Friday, I had to go buy me a suit, shoes, the long coat top coats. So that was costing because you got to remember back then his suit was

like $1,500,000. So I'm trying to keep up with him out of my pocket. I was like, man, I'm not doing that too. I went a few times to like Red Parrot or something like that with him and I was like, nah. So, but when I'm saying, when I say the money was the money, I don't know where

the money was being spent because, you know, when I came home, I said, I slept 30 days on on the couch, but I moved a park, Chester. See, when I left the school, when I left the streets in the early 80s, Parkchester was the place to be in the bronze. You know what I'm trying to say? If you ain't stay in Jersey, Parkchester's like, it's like a little city.

You got Bacys and all that stuff right there, all the edie reasons and all that. So I moved there. I'm not knowing that Parkchester is not Parkchester no more. You know what I'm saying? It's like high crime now, you know what I mean? So when I move up there, every time I parked my car, it was stolen. I had to move from there to move to Jersey. So that's when I moved to Jersey and start moving to Jersey.

But like I said, I don't know where the money went Because like I go to every day I was just buying clothes because I didn't catch up on clothes So I go to 25th Street I probably buy like two or three outfits You know what I'm trying to say And sometime I buy a piece of jewelry or something like that You know what I'm saying?

Then I want to have a I have like Like anywhere from like a thousand or $2,000 In my pocket just to spend You know what I'm trying to say Because you got people selling shit on the street You might want to take a girl out And then you know How old girls wasn't cheap back

then even they was young. You know what I'm trying to say? They still was wanting like, you know, they want to go to the ring. So you got to least give them like 500 to $1,000 because they want a leather jacket. You know what I'm trying to say they want some Edwin jeans, some 5411s, you know what I'm saying? You know, or they probably want a down coach. So it was expensive back then, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, women are really the reason that men do everything. The good and the bad, aren't they? I mean, I have my share, you know, you know, even when I was a kid, You know, like I said, my, my girl at that time before I got locked up, her first car was a BMW 325. You know what I'm trying to say?

And this was before, this was around the time where dudes that was hustling couldn't even afford one of those joints. You know what I'm trying to say? Her ring that I put on her finger was a solid tear. You know what I'm saying? There wasn't no chipped-up diamonds like they behind there. It was a solitaire diamond, a big diamond. So if you look at my younger pictures and you just look on her finger, it's a solitaire. big big ass rock on a thing.

It was impossible for you guys to know, but I always asked this question to people that came from this era. Did you realize how exceptional the times you were living through were? Like, what did you mean? Like, think about this. You were born into abject poverty,

especially by like American standards. And everybody was living in the ghetto. And, but you had all, you had millions of dollars in this underground economy being passed around this small little city every single day like that will probably never happen again like I was broke I was broke coming from a middle class family in Portland Oregon like I didn't have any I had to like mollons and do chores to get like 50 bucks a week there was no opportunity for us to like like I used

to be jealous when I would hear about you hear in in rap like wow these like young black kids from the they get to get all this money. Like, what about us? Now, of course, we know that that's a destructive, long term, that's a destructive force. But like at 23 years old, when you're moving like a key, a shift, like, did you realize, like, the opportunity that this money could, could bring to you long term?

Or were you still not thinking like that? No. I mean, back then, you know, I don't, you know, I guess, I guess that, the crack era, they didn't have the same mentality. set as the people who's in the 70s. And then again, you got to realize the people in the 70s, they probably just was on the thinking thing where they had so much money, they just had to just buy.

You know, because, you know, like I said, you know, you had, like when I looked at the Nicky interview and I was saying that he honed a lot of balls, car wash and all the best and that stuff. So I realized he had to put that money into something. Right. But at the same time, you know, you get, in the 70s, they had buildings you can buy

for a dollar. You know what I'm trying to say? So you probably spend a couple like 50 to 100, you know, shit was cheap back there to fix it up. So you probably spend money on buying laundry max or fix that up real quick off of your money just to, you know what I'm saying? Because you don't want to two or three million dollars

sitting in your house. Right. But meeting myself, I'm looking at it as, you know what I'm saying? I got me a couple of like two, 300,000 in the house. I'm not trying to go buy no building or nothing like that. I want to see my money sit there. You know what I'm trying to say? I like seeing my money sit there.

So, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, you guys weren't as good at like investing. Right. You didn't have the Warren Buffett mentality. God, if you could have just come down there and talk to you guys, you could buy half a Harlem. You would have been the landlords today. But I just think it was more of a, we was just trying to be with those dudes in the 70s with the big medians, the fly cars and the clothes and all that stuff.

And it was like, Harlem is more about like a competing thing. You know what I'm saying? So you see this dude busts out with a car. old and I'm going to bus out with a car. I learned from my brother about certain things like that because he used to tell me, yo, why would you go buy a car

for, you know what I'm trying to say? Back then, a BM was like 30, $30,000, $325,000, $30,000. He was like, why would you go buy that BM on that 300 ZX for $30,000 without having that $30,000? You know what I'm saying? Why would you, you know what I'm saying? If that's the case, have that two times over what you're spending.

Right. You know what I'm saying? But me, I'm like, man, I just did five years. years. I'm going to enjoy this money. Right. Right. Okay. So how did working with your brother Kite and working these crack spots when you first come home, how did that evolve into meeting Fat Boy later on? Because Kite went to jail. Okay. So what happened was me and Fat Boy used to we used to trade connects. Like if I couldn't find nothing, you know what I said? No, he couldn't find him or if he got some illiter to me and I pay him off like that just to move our shit. But at the same time how we met is that

you know we found out that he went to the school with me but you know he was like a quiet dude in school so you know I really didn't take notice to him but he had a spot that was doing good and I had um I had came to that block with my friend my friend Danny

that I used to live in that block so when I came to that block he said he had somebody that can sell some drugs for me so you know now I'm looking for certain spots for me to move my shit besides the other spots that I had and um When I got there, I met this kid named Terrell, you know what I'm saying? And he was one of the dudes that I hit off, you know what I'm saying?

With some grams like that. But him and Dame Dash was working at the time, you know what I'm saying? Was together at the time. So that's how I met Dame and him at the same time. But I used to sit him in Fat Boy Building, you know what I'm saying? When I used to sit him in Fat Boy Building, say he'll sell out and they go to re-up, I said, I'm like, yo, go ahead in there. And I hear go in there, he'll sell the shit out of there until they come back.

So when he found out what was going on, he was going to be with Terrell Bo and he found out it was me. He don't know me, so he went to get this dude named Black. That's all in my case too. And Black was like, yo, that's such and such. So, man, that's how men was introduced. But that wasn't the beginning of the

relationship. We started speaking and start talking at that time. But the relationship formed, like, you know, once you meet somebody, if you see him somewhere, you hang out with him, you know what I'm saying? Whatever like that. But one time I was going to the rooftop. and I seen him on a hump, 45th, like right on the corner of Willie Burgess,

but I seen him with his coat on, but I see this car park. So I pulls over, when I pulls over, I'm like, yo, what's up? He was like, yo, man, these niggas just robbed me. I'm like, what? I'm like, yo, what? So he said, Joe, he was walking up this way. I'm like, yo, get in because I used to carry a 22 tech with a screen under my warridge back then.

So anyway, I was just going to, came home. I was still, you know, gun hold. Like, you know what I'm saying? So I put him in my car, and we went from like, you know, from 40 fifth street stops at Lennox Avenue and then go to Brerahe. So we went to driving each other back and forth from them to Brerhurst, going through East Blocks.

When we get to around 49th, we see some dudes standing there. And when we pulled up, he was like, yo, there they go right there. I'm like, and I went to school. I went to the IS 10. IS 10 is right up there way. So I went to school with these things. So when they see me get out, they like have you,

oh shit, Lou you home, blah, blah, blah. We're kicking it. But when they see him get out, they put the face on my, what the fuck. So, you know, I'm trying to say it. I was like, yo, this such and such a So they wound up giving a coat back in the jury. But he had like $1,500,000 in his pocket.

I was like, yo, they got to keep something. So they kept the money. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You took it back. You could have robbed all of them for everything. Right. But you were like, no, what's fair is fair?

You guys keep the cash. You know what I'm saying? But I knew them from going to school. Right. You know what I'm saying? So I was like, wow. So we shook hands and we was out of there. But that's a, that was the form.

That was the, that formed the bond of our relationship. Yeah. Because this guy, fat boy, you know, according to the book, he was kind of. of a nerd and he really wasn't a gangster he was just a good drug dealer and it's it sounds like you guys kind of made a good team because he really knew how to move the work and you knew how to enforce and manage and you were the tough guy right and it sounds like a lot of guys were like that a lot of big-time drug dealers were not gangster I'm gonna say I'm gonna say like this once we got our connect um he was more of a more diplomatic than me you know trying to say me running the

screeched even from a kid, they knew me as that person. You know what I'm trying to say? So if you talk to somebody there, tell you, I never changed since I was a kid. I'm the same way. So rob and stealing whatever. So, you know, a lot of people, even people that was cool, it wasn't a trust and me like that. With him, it was more of a trust. You know what I'm saying? So they can come by a key from him for 22. You know, I'm trying to say, whatever, they're going to pay for it. And it's cool. Or he can give it out. But they know they're going to pay because of me.

But at the same time, my money came from spots. His money came from spot. It's one spot, but he was, you know, he mostly wholesale. So he was good at that. So the thing about it, when we got it, you know what I'm trying to say? Got the connect. That was like he knew how to move it faster than me until I wouldn't start going out of town. I see. So when I started going out of town, you got to remember, they was buying ounces for like $15 when the ounce was like $500, $400, $400 in New York.

You know what I'm trying to say? So you're killing him. Right. You're almost. And what are you paying on a kilo from your connect? Like back then we was paying like 15 when it was going for 22. Wow. You know, I'm trying to say.

But out of town, you know, they was buying like, you're going to sell a whole key for 28 and they still think they're getting, you know, because it was out of town like Alabama, Carolina. Back then, you know, you got to remember we coming out the 80s when that shit is coming out like that. Unless you had a real plug down there, you wasn't getting no money like that. If you were a regular Joe on the street and trying to get some money, you're going to go with them prices because of the money you make off it. And you virtually opened up the New Orleans crack market.

Yeah, we can really- You all, you all an apology to New Orleans for flooding that town. When I first went out there, they didn't know the, they didn't even know what crack was. Yeah, I mean,

they knew what crack was, but the police didn't know what it was. You know what I'm trying to say, they had seen it and think it was some soap or something like that. Right. You know what I'm saying? But they hustle different than us.

They don't put their stuff in bottles. You know what I'm saying? They sell it out their hands. Like whatever piece you want there break it off and send it to you. Yeah, insane. So you kind of organized, you found like a crew of guys, right?

And you put them on the pack? When I look back on the No Long Lings, it was easy to come out there and be the man because what they was working in the projects, it was like, that's, you know, this is the dude that, you know, getting money, the man out there, I'm like, damn, and he was only working on that. So when I started giving it to him for like $1,100, $1,100 like that, you know what I'm trying to say? Because that's all they were dealing with ounces down there. Right. So we got out there with the, the heroin was still going out there too, going out there, too. So you could get a key for 15 in New York and dump it on. can't go. You're going to pay at least 22

at that time. Okay, but you can still wholesale it out of town for 30, 2830. Right. And it's moving. So who, and by the way, who was your connect? We got some Colombians out of Queens. Really?

Yeah. Because wasn't that rare for black guys in the 80s to have Colombian connects? Like, usually like they dealt with Dominicans. Yeah, but they were the middlemen. You know, everybody like there with Dominicans off the hill. And they sold a bunch of garbage. You know what I'm trying to say? Because even when we used to go up on the hill to get shit,

when we ain't had work, I'll be up there at 12 o'clock. I wouldn't get out of there until like 8 o'clock. They run it all over the place trying to get what I want because they can't supply. So you got you got Dominicans up there. They probably be 40, 40 Dominicans working off of one key up to that joint. Right, right. And then the joint will always be wet, different colors and all that stuff like that. So, you know, you just really get that to hold you down.

But, you know what I'm saying? So they were really just middle manning. You could just go around those guys if you met a Colombian and then you never have to deal with Dominicans. No, I mean, you know, after that, I never dealt with them up there, period. You know what I'm trying to say? Unless I had to go up there.

And when I did go up there, I just grabbed what I can grab, but I'm out of it. Right. You know what I'm trying to say, I really never really dealt with them. But back in the days, we used to sell shit up there, like jury or something like that. Back in the days, you know,

they had the same thing going on. But you had a lot of balls that was on. a hill that sold coat, straight up coat. It wasn't no crack thing. Right. You know what I'm saying? Was it difficult to meet a Colombian connect being from Harlem? It all, yeah.

Hell yeah, it was difficult. It's difficult to meet a connect, period. Right. Like that seems like that's the key to coming up in the game. You know what I'm trying to say? No. They're a Colombian rather to deal with a Dominican than a deal with, you know what I'm trying to say, it's not trusted.

But if they know you got some money and you're going to put up some money, that's a different story. You're right. You know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah. Did you make that connect, that Colombian connect, or was that Leon? No, we both did. Okay. What were you guys picking up? Huh? What were you guys? What was the re-up? What did that look like?

Like, I wasn't really, once I got, once I established a certain thing, but I had, where I had collect a few money for a money that was owed to them. I wasn't really dealing with them. I met them a few times, but I wasn't really dealing with them. But I mean, how much were you guys buying, like at a time? Would you pick up a couple of birds or? Yeah, we just get, I'm on the first time. that we ever got into it like that, I was, I was, I was collecting money. I was running up in, like, you know,

certain dudes that was in the ledger that owed some money. I would cash them like at the garage or I knew who they was and be like, yo, you owe this certain money. So most of them was like, yo, look, I ain't got no problem with paying the money, but you still, you're still, you're most definitely. So Fat Boy was more diplomatic on that side right there. But I remember when the first time I came,

I came up, he called me, he had beat me and told me, yo, look, come up to the crib. So when I come up, he was cooking up. He was like going to the living room. And I looked in the living room. I looked at the living room. I'm like, what the fuck in the living room? So it was some boxes on the table.

He was like, look in the boxes. When I look in the boxes, you had the whole keys and you had the half the keys, the real slim ones. You know what I was coming flat and you had the big one. I'm like, yo, this is I was? He was like, yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm happy now. You know what I'm saying? Wow. So you got to, so you guys were buying, he was picking up like,

multiple keys at a time. It was a different, it's a different era. I mean, we, the Columbia's hustle different. You know what I'm trying to say? They'll work anywhere from six months to eight months out of year. And the next of the month, you got to depend for yourself. Right. So most of the time when we hustling during the winter,

we don't buy nothing, no cars, no nothing. We just hustle. Even if we got to wear the same clothes, seven days, just to hustle, hustle. Right. But we try, whatever money we do, we just push it, push it, push it. And whatever left over, that's what we have for ourselves. But sometimes that's actually we used to run out before they even get back.

So we have to go on the hill and mess with the Dominican. Right. You know what I mean? So you're getting keys and you start moving them out of town. How many different spots throughout the East Coast were you dropping product off to? Well, me and myself, I was the only one that was out of town hustling. We went to Delaware, Carolina, Virginia, Newport, Virginia. We went to another hustle in D.C., Georgia.

we went to Alabama and New Orleans. Because later on, it's important because later on, the government basically, Janet Reno, who's the United States attorney by this time, she can't pin the death penalty on you. They have to drop it in New York. But she reaches out to all these other states where you're implicated in doing work in and says, hey, she reaches out to the assistance U.S. attorneys of those. States and say, hey, if you want to take a shot at Lou, you know, God bless you, do your best.

And Alabama is the one who ends up trying you for murder there. So that's why it's important that we understand because this comes into the, how your story kind of climaxes. It climaxes. Like, my story became political because the way they did my case. Yeah. You know, Mary J. Welk, Mary Joe White is over the northern. the Southern District of Manhattan.

So she had prosecutors on my case, which the ones that locked me up and was prosecuting the case. But at the same time, Janarino stepped in and took over because I was facing a death on me at an 848 CCE. So Janarino caused a news conference and said she wasn't giving me the death penalty. I'm like, wow. But at that time, we didn't know that our case was messed up. that you know what I'm saying. What happened was those that went to the grand jury

to get us that indictment, they got caught lying. You know what I'm saying? So when you get caught lying, of course, everything that you said is questionable. So those that came out of, they let them be the ones that was going to testify. So when we asked them,

they're going to testify, they said, yeah, but they was lying. So they know that that was appealable as well as we was on the false indictment being meaning that, you've got to go back to the grand jury and get a whole new grand jury because the ones that was lying they gave forced testimony

to the grand jury. You know what I'm saying? So they posted that went back. They didn't do that because we just passed our 180 days and all that. I laid up like two years in the MCC. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So what happened, they gave us a cop out and all that like that. But what she did, she notified every state that we was in, that I was in,

to ask them to try to prosecute me. And I didn't know that at the time. So, you know what I'm saying? So when I went to Atlanta, and I'm thinking that, you know, I'm just doing my 30 years, they came, they gave me a, they call me the R&D and said, Joe, you got another child. I'm like, what the fuck? I get another child. So when they asked me, I'm like, I'm like, I'm already convicted that.

How are they going to do that? But anyway, it was a dude. But anyway, they took me back to court for it, you know what I'm saying? Within that time. So when I went back to court, They railroad me because they told me that the file that they used to all my ballistic reports, statements and all that, I didn't get none of that when I first went to trial down in Alabama. They didn't give me none of that. They told me they lost all of it.

And I'm saying, yo, this is a modern day. Everything is computerized. So I'm going to say you send it to the fares and you don't have a computer disk or none of this stuff. You know what I'm saying? So they railroad me. I'm not even know Alabama is so racist that they do things like that. So when I get back through the freedom of information and them railroading me

and somebody else had already copped out to the murder down there and everything. So I'm not even knowing certain things until I get looking to my federal case. And I'm through freedom of information. They're sending me all kind of stuff. Even on my state, I'm even on my state. I'm in my federal case.

You know what I'm saying? So when I find all this, I started. Every night I used to read, you know what I said? I should sit up. And I was in Atlanta. I just sit up and read. By the way, by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt. Did your, was this murder case?

So you're doing 30 in the feds for drug trafficking. But you get charged for murder. Is that a state case in Alabama? That's a state case. Okay, even though the Janorino, who's part of the feds, obviously, is kind of encouraging this. The feds are encouraging the states to try to put a murder on you. You end up defending yourself. Right.

and you, by the way, when in question, I don't want to bury the lead here, the big reveal that you're about to tell us, the dude who got killed, the victim in this murder case, you, I believe, weren't even in the state when it happened. Right.

So I just want to put that out there for people, you know? So go ahead and tell us, continue, how did you end up just defending yourself? Because, like, this is such a bumbled, fucked up case. Like the terrible prosecution, by the way. It happened because, like I said,

I used to wake up. every morning they kept reading the case over and over and over. And every time I read it over and over, what I miss, I'll find and I'll write it down. But when I first came back from with the capital case, Doc Shikor, which is Tupac's their father, he came to the yard and was like, yo, I need to talk to you. I'm looking at him. I'm like, yo, who the fuck is you? Like, you know what I'm saying?

You know, I'm thinking that he's challenging me like, yo. So I'm like, yo, I'm going to blow this old dude up. But anyway, he was like, yo, I need, we're going to get in this law library. So he took me in the law library. We got the book for the colleges as well as death penalty lawyers. And we wrote letters to everybody. Only one of them picked it up with the lawyer. So he was in Alabama.

That was a hum-do-law. That was good because I used to send him. I used to be on the phone and I used to sit him everything and I'd find it. He had to make motions on everything. And that's who got my case overturned as well as that because he used to have me in every day. But he was the first one that told me when I said, they can't do it. He was like, they can't do it. And the first case that he showed me was a Timmy McBay case,

you know, trying to say the Oklahoma Obama when he did him in the affairs as well as the state. How did you decide and why did you decide to defend yourself? Because I realized the lawyers that I had was their lawyers and they wasn't representing me the way. Because every time I'm looking at, I'm like, yo, why is you question everything you questioned the witnesses on is what the prosecutors. So you just re-questioned them. I'm like, no, we're not doing that. Because I got conflicted statements here. You know what I'm saying?

So I was in every conflicted statement because one dude said he paid me this. I'm like, why would you have to pay me and this is my spot? And we get money like that for it. It was something like that happened. So I bring all this to the witness as well as the audience, but I mean the jury. So they're looking at every little thing now, you know what I'm saying? But one of the main things was that the police that was up there when he gave his statement, when he gave his testimony, yeah.

gave his testimony. He set up there like, yo, yeah, we, you know what I'm saying? We used to follow him all the time and he grew a champagne color 300 ZX. You know what I'm saying? So I went and hurried up and got my title. You know what I said? I still have the

titles in my car. So I'm like, yo, I need my title. So they brought me the title for my car. So when I question them, I was like, yo, so if you said you follow me and you keep everything up here, you don't write nothing down. And that's what makes you a special agent because I asked him, what makes him a special agent.

And he told me, you know, certain things make him a special agent. So I said, do you, as you colorblind, do you know the difference of black and white? So now he gets upset. You know what I'm trying to say, what you mean? But I said, because you're saying here, I drove with champagne of color 300 ZX. But right here says my 300 ZX is silver. So that's like a black and white thing. You know what I'm trying to say?

So that was one of the things. Then they destroyed evidence because they, these people sent them to some lake. They sent out there and they combed the lake and they found guns, which was the caliber of guns that's supposed to be used, but they destroyed them because they was unharbable. You know what I mean? That's what they said. But as a special agent and the federal, they never supposed to destroy no kind of stuff that they find. So all this came into play.

Right. And you presented that to the jury, all of this sketchy evidence and this really questionable stuff. The biggest thing that happened was that one of the dudes that was up on a stand telling on me, which was Derek Razor, he was. up there's telling on me, and he admitted that my son was born, right, in the Harlem hospital during that day. You know what I'm trying to say? And I came through that block that day and I spoke to him. I'm like, yo, I'm going to the hospital. You know, I'm going to the hospital. So, Sabrina just had the baby, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like,

oh, hey, man, I'm coming down the block because I had to come through that block. He hustled on 136. The hospital was on 136 or 135. So I'm going through. So once he testified that, you know what I'm trying to say, and I presented the papers. And then she came in the but I had the records me signed in the hospital. Right. And I'm hospital. So there's your alibi right there. That's my alibi right there. So when the jury looked at there, it was like, man, and then you had a bunch

of dudes that was up there that was from Alabama trying to testify, I guess me. But you can tell it was coerced because anybody from the hood don't use certain big words that a prosecutor was using. So I'll point that out. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Did you actually, Derek Razor was your friend from New York?

That was my childhood friend since we was kids. What did that do to you? He was up there lying on you. Like, you know, like I tell everybody, I'm a, I'm a forgiven person because if I got, if I'm going to ask a lot of forgive me for all the wrong that I did, I'm going to have to be a forgiven person too. But at the same time, I'm not forgetting. And because of how many people told her on me, it was just the people that I grew up with,

you know what I'm trying to say? That really hurt me. Everybody that I met after 88, I don't care nothing about him. You're not trying to say, but everybody that I grew up with, we grew up with nothing. Yeah. Came out of property for nothing. But when you did that, and you set up and you know they get made, we don't have no elite to injections. We have a, uh, uh, uh, uh, the, um, the chair.

Electric chair. Yeah, the electric chair. So every night I got to go to sleep then, they get me, they get me scrapped me down in this, this lecture chair and fry me. And you up there, you, you testify against me. I'm like, yo, is you for real? You could have killed me on the street if that's the case. Right.

You know what was his, was he offered a deal to testify against you? He had a deal in the fence, which it was already sealed, but he came to get another deal. in the state. Wow. Did he get out early, even though you were found not guilty, did he get out early because of your testimony? He got the witness protection program and everything. And the thing about it, you know, he came.

He still, you know, I guess they still can't get away. As they say, criminals are going to come back to where they, you know what I'm saying? Right. Yeah. Has he been back to Harlem? Well, right now he's locked up. Oh, okay. And I guess he would have took his time.

He would have just been coming out the same time I was. but I guess it equaled up now. So the big and the big reveal, so you were dunking on them. You were dunking on the prosecution. You were dunking on their so-called witnesses and the cops. The big reveal is that the guy who actually did this murder was already in prison. Insane, dude. Insane.

They wanted you so bad. They wanted you so bad. Janet Reno herself. This is the United States, the top cop. in the United States. This is the United States Attorney. She actually showed up to your arraignment in New York. Not the arraignment.

What was it? The death penalty thing. Yes. They had to take it off. Yeah, they had to take it off. Right. But she showed up trying to push for the death penalty for you. No. Why was she there? She took it off. She let it be known that they'd not giving me the death penalty. You know what I'm saying? Oh, I thought she was the one

that was like trying to... No, she the one that said they couldn't give it to me because the case was messed up. So they couldn't just... You got to remember my case was a high profile case. I had certain things on my case that I have requested jury, you know what I'm saying? Because dudes that was on my case that was telling, you know what I'm trying to say, what they was doing is that I'll be, I'd be, like, say I was in a hole one time with this dude with one of my co-defendants named Anthony Polk.

And I told the CEO, I was like, yo, let me go to a wreck with him. let me go to the record with Pope so I could put some holes in him. He went right back to the prosecutor. So one day I'm going to the court. I'm like, man, I ain't got no court day. So when I get the court, none of my code refiners in the bull, and I'm like, I know these people ain't trying to get me down there. But anyway, I go to court.

The CEO is on the stand. You know what I'm saying? I got all this paperwork. I got the paperwork to show that he's on the stand. You know, the sonographer. Yeah, I got this. And I'm like, man, what the, you know what I'm saying? He doesn't understand.

Like, yeah, this is what he said. And like that. Then on the CEO's like, yo, this is my job. I was like, yeah, I understand. But they had a request of jury because of stuff like this. Because one time I, and this thing about it, I wasn't even like threatening to be like that because I wrote a letter and be like,

yo, why did you come seeing this dude? I wrote a letter to another, to somebody on the street and I asked him why they was going to see another dude named a hot dog. I asked him why you coming to see this dude and you know this dude is telling him. He gave a letter back to the dude. The dude took it to the prosecutor.

So now I'm like, man, what the fuck? You know what I'm saying? I'm like, what? You know, when they present this shit, so now they get me, they got to give us a request of jury because they're saying that we can tamper with the jury. Right. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, the case was just like real, like every little thing that stopped that they could put out, they was just planning to get me. Because I guess they knew that the case was messed up anyway.

You know what I'm trying to say? But it's what's so incredible is that they almost never give people the death penalty on the federal level. And they were pushing for you to get it. Mary Joe White was pushing for you to get it at the behest of Janet Reno and really coming all the way down for Bill Clinton because this was political. It was the Democrat Party trying to appear tough on crime. You were basically, you went away and got locked up at it was the perfect storm because politically all these people were calling for a really, really harsh, strict crime policies. So you kind of were, you kind of got the brunt of that, you know. but now so you beat your case but i want to i want to back up to what what to me is the most

chilling fascinating part of your journey is charles wrangell right charles rangel the congressman long time congressman democratic congressman from harlem uh has been he was basically the reason for Bill Clinton and Joe Biden's draconian tough on crack mandatory minimum policies a lot of people want to blame just white people for the drug wars but it was actually people like him

calling for it for decades saying we need more money we need more money to fight crime in Harlem we need more money it was always more money and we got to clean up the streets but it's always an infiltrator that always give away we got some whatever.

I mean, we can go way back to history to Nat Turner. You know what I'm trying to say? He had the perfect plan to get out of slavery. You know what I'm trying to say? But at the same time, as soon as the person get caught, they start telling. But I'm not saying that in Charles Rangel case. I'm saying this in my, as in Charles Rangel. I mean, I'm not saying that that's part of

Charles Rangel telling on that. But what he did? He had Harlem. You know what I'm trying to say? So you got to remember he had Harlem when the time was Holland was all black owned. You know what I'm saying? whereas, like I said, they were selling buildings for a dollar. You know what I'm saying? But the dudes, the people that was out there getting money at that time,

they didn't know that this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was, this was going to get rid of, make certain laws that's going to get rid of them as well as, you know what I'm saying? Take over how long as get. Make them rich. And let me see. The reason why I'm saying is because if you, if you, if you, if you, if you fix it up, you buy a building for, a dollar and you fix it up when they come to get you, who takes it? You know what I'm trying to say? It goes back to them.

So now when it goes back to them, the first thing he do as the congressman is he sell it to who he wanted to sell it to so he'd get all the big corporations to come in and one of his best friends. Like you got to remember when God took over Percy Sutton, when he left Apollo, Percy Sutton picked it up. You know what I'm trying to say? And he's one of the politicians that was part of Hollis.

Who else comes on it? The Reverend Reverend Bunce. You know what I'm trying to say? So now when you got the Abacena back to this church that own blocks of brownstones and all right. And that million dollar brownstones now that he was buying for cheap under the church name. He sold all that. Right. Were you actually buying property for Charles or were drug lords?

No, no. What I'm trying to say it. Look, it's like this. If you buy property, you got to remember, you buying it from the state, you know, I'm trying to say because it's the ban. The landlord's left. So the Noss will come to the state because of the tax. So they sell it for a dollar because it's going to be able to get either demolished or you fix it up. So now when you sell it, you fix it up.

You're a drug dealer. When you get locked up, it's coming back to them. So it's all a part of the game that they play. So now you've got to remember all this didn't come out. The people didn't know all this stuff until big corporations and all of start moving in because now the thing that they had a plan is coming into effect. Fix up Harlem. Right. You know what I'm saying?

So the big corporations, the drug that started, the big corporations came and it took over. Yeah. So now all the people that had businesses, small pops that were going through moms and pop stores, that have been going through generations and generations from kid to kid, they force them out because they tell them that you're under this law that they make is that, look, if your mom's and pop store is not making enough to generate jobs in the neighborhood, but we got to take it. So you're going to have to sell it or we got to take it.

So that's how they move them out. New stands and all that. So they move them out on that and big corporations come in. So now big corporations and there's in Harlem. So now Harlem, you know,

Harlem is not Harlem no more. You know what I'm trying to say? Everybody, every culture is down there now. You know what I'm saying? Me being a Muslim, I'm not racist, but at the same time,

every culture should have their own. You know what I'm trying to say? Jews have their own. Even a nation of Islam have their own. You know what I'm trying to say, but blacks don't have nothing. They don't have Harlem no more because I don't even consider it Hallam no more

but it's been taken from us, you know what I'm saying? And how all this was found out is that like I'm sitting in the jail so I used to get the answer damn news, right? And that's like a Harlem paper that's show together. And I'm reading. So, you know, it was nothing for the moms and pops

to defend themselves that the property was taken because they got to generate jobs. But they try to move the Apollo, the big corporation try to say, okay, we're going to build this big building over the Apollo. We're going to take the Apollo out. And people was like, nah, that's a landmark. That's all we got left. You know what I'm saying?

That's like the cotton club. Yeah. So it is like, okay, but we're going to put it back in. And it was like it wouldn't be the same. Even if you put it back the same way you took it out, you know what I'm saying? So everybody started protesting on that stuff like that. So when they started investigating Charles Rangel, they found a lot of things like what I'm telling you right now, as well as he had apartments and Lennox,

that he had two apartments under under under that blew out you know what I'm trying to say it and even though um the liquor store man came and testified and I mean testified I mean well he came and told his story that you know um he only only owned crystal champagne is because he was the only one that buy you know what I'm trying to say so yeah you know so when a lot of stuff start coming out after that so the thing about it they took him out of Congress but two three years later he's back in like this was forget so you know the people the day, that's just like the news. So whatever they put in front of you today, you're going to forget it tomorrow when they

come out with something different. You know what I'm trying to say? And plus, he was Bill Clinton's boy. Like, like he convinced. So, but going back to his involvement in this scheme to buy up a bunch of property under the church, explain that. Did he actually come to you? You were in the hospital, according to the book, you had a bullet in your leg.

You were in the hospital. did he actually approach you? Oh, Charles Ringling? Yeah. No, no. Only kind of enactment that I ever had with communication I ever had with Charles Ringgo was that when I was in Atlanta, when I was in Atlanta, they had, I couldn't come back to the East Coast. I never been on the, I never did time on the East Coast unless I was in a lockdown program.

That was Lewisburg and Allerwood. Right. But I was locked down. They wouldn't let me come on a compound because of the, influence. And it started because of the Latin King thing on the oldest bill. But long story short, I spent all my time like in the south or mid or the west, the Midwest or out in California. Okay. So I had wrote him a letter. I had a female write him a letter and he came back and told him like, Joe, you know, he could bring him back to the East Coast so he can be close to his family.

That's the only communication I ever had with Charles Rangel, you know what I'm saying? But I'm just speaking on the history of the, you know, of the politics. Right. You know, we get these people in office, but they don't be for the people. Right. And there was clearly a vet. They, those politicians from Harlem clearly had a ulterior motive when they were telling the feds, hey, we need to clean up these crack dealers and all this crime. It was so they could then sell this property to the big corporations that now basically own all of the best real estate in Harlem. And they got rich doing it. But, like, you know, me being a study history and whether it's European history, Africa, history, Asian history, anything, you know, I'm, you know, I like to be able to elaborate on all, especially if the topic come up. And me knowing what I know about the government, you know what I'm saying,

the high officials, that they practice the same laws that from the Roman times, you know what I'm trying to say? Of course, they're going to have the Republican, but at the same time, they did the like, you know, they had the people that came to speak for the people. But that wasn't really for the people. They just had a voice like, you're coming to make my complaint. They make it look like, okay, you're a slave to us. You're going to do what we're going to do. So, but if you got to complain, complain to them, that's your people that you get in office for you, you know what I'm saying? So it's the same thing that they do over here, you know, but it's all one government.

Right. You know what I'm saying? So who are we voting for? You know what I'm saying? Who we basically voting for was a Democratic Republican Republican? Republican. Right. You know what I'm saying? So the Democratic is for the poor people. You know what I'm saying? When you get in office, what you're doing for us? You know what I'm saying? We got a whole lot of grievance that we want a grievance. Yeah. And that's kind of the most sickening part of that whole era, the tough on crime era from the 80s and 90s, is the fact that it was actually pushed through by Democrats who were supposed to be for black people, four poor people.

you know Joe Biden just pardon 2,500 people he he should pardon a hundred times that much for all of the legislation that he wrote that they locked people up for you know forever so if that's that to me at least the Republicans were honest

they were like yeah I don't fuck with these guys Biden was a good presidency period I mean his decisions that he made was just like crazy and I'm not just you know like I said I can't I can't talk about the immigrants that was let in but it came to be, they was high on crimes.

And then when his administration was questioned about the terrorist cells, like 3,000 terrorist cells that were sent over and where's they at now? Nobody knows. So, you know, we got terrorist cells, you know, that we don't even know about in the United States now. I mean, we got immigrants kids. Where's their kids?

All this is, that's all this comes from C-SPAN that they put in North there. Like, where's the kids that the government took? from these parents. Well, we didn't think that these kids, they were just coming in on the floor. It don't make a difference. I'm trying to say, where's the kids at? And the first thing they said was they is sex slavery.

You know what I'm saying? So I'm not going to see. When I look at the news and I'm listening to the, like I listen to the news, but I also have my own opinion. But when they give it up to, when they're trying to get one of their own, I also listen to them too.

So they've brought out a lot of good points. Like, where's the kids at? Why, where's these terrorist sales at and stuff like that? You know what I'm saying? So, you know, when I look at the government, And I'm like, you know, you know, so you can tell me you're Democratic or Republican or whatever, you know, it's all the same to me. Yeah, most of us.

Let me, I want to finish with, you know, how this whole thing concluded. You beat your murder case in Alabama. And now you just got to go back and do your time. Do your, what exactly was your charge that you went down for in the feds? I told you, I had a refo case. Okay. Got it. And that was out of New York. Right. Yeah. And what about Leon? Fat boy, your ex-partner.

Well, he had the same thing, too, but at the same time, their agreement to crop away with the government, you know what I'm saying? They just laid the whole thing out for their case. So that's what the time that you get. So now you've got to work your time down when you're working for the government. You know what I'm trying to say? So being that you got life, I mean, being that you got caught lying, you're going to get the time that you told them. You know what I'm saying? So you got a life sentence. because of the stuff that you told them. What do you talk? I don't understand. Okay, look, when the government

tell you, come to you and tell you that you're going to cooperate with the government, if you're willing to cooperate with the government, you got to tell all known and unknown. You know what I'm trying to say? So if you leave something now and they find out later, I'm trying to say, they can rip up your agreement. But if you get caught lying, that's most definitely ripping up your agreement.

So they got caught lying, and they ripped up the agreement. So now you've got to face the charges that you copped out to. So there ain't no way you can beat it because you copped out to it. You agreed to help them. So now you get that time, what you copped out to. Right.

So was that, did Leon get 30 as well? No, he got life. Wow. He copped out to life. You got to, look,

in order for you to get it, you got to cop out to that crime. Yeah. You got a proffer, what is I call it? It's called the profit. Right. So he,

when you guys got arrested, what year did you guys get arrested for this case? 94. So he, he agreed to cooperate with them. in what capacity testifying against you or Right

Everybody Wow and he was the kingpin right He was did he tell on the Colombian connects I don't even know I don't know how far they extend I don't even know who was on my case Wow they still don't tell you How is that legal

That's so unfair you don't even It's unidentified people Like basically when you If he did And they're not on a case If you dig deeper through freedom of information, you might come up with it.

You know what I'm trying to say? Because that's a part of the case that he's working on. But at the same time, it's not going to come up in the discovery case. Because you've got a number. You know what I'm trying to say? So this is the thing, right? You got to, your docker sheet

tells everything, your whole movement and everything. So if it's on you, like, I can order me a docket sheet. I can go to court today and order a doctor sheet tomorrow for my lawyer or the courts. It's going to say everything that my code defense was doing anyway. You know what I'm trying to say? So if it's a date

that they went on and this is this day right ahead, they're going to say it's going to be on there. They left the building. So they're going to tell if they went for a bail herring, a court herring without me, or a profit hearing. It's going to say profit harrimor. So if you got to, so every time a person leave the building and they go to meet with them people,

it's going to say profit herring on them. You know what I'm saying? So it's a profit hammering that they go to say what they got to say. So that's basically, you know, right now you don't need nothing but that the show if a person told And even if he didn't get no kind of leniency towards them, it still went that you, it's still going to be on that paper that you went to talk to them people in the doctor sheet. So Leon told on everybody the people working for him and probably and you and his connect probably. So what was he lying about?

Did it come out later that he didn't tell the Fed something and they tore up his deal? Yeah. Really? Right. Do you know what that was about? Do you know what he lied to them about? Did you ever find out? Really?

You know, we don't get those. Once you cop out until your time, you don't get certain stuff. I got a lot of stuff through freedom of information, but it's not going to really pinpoint what he, what he really said. So Leon tells the whole tale and still ends up getting a life sentence. Wow. Imagine that. So you not only do betray everyone and you have a snitch jacket on you forever,

but now you're locked up forever. Right. Wow. Do you kind of feel like when you found out, did you kind of feel like that's what he gets? Or did you feel bad for him? No, like I said, you know what I'm saying? I didn't feel bad for my,

I didn't feel anything, man, you know, because like my whole bid, I was numb to a lot of things. You know what I mean? You know, I didn't have, I didn't do a regular bid like everybody else did. and I'm saying this because I didn't go to a lot of FCIs and get the enjoyment of you know what I'm saying from and I didn't get a lot of visits from my family

I watched my kids grow up in pitches so I was numb to a lot of things so I'm not caring about what the next man did if he got that time or not that told on me you know what I'm saying that's what you did that's what you get you know what I'm saying like I said I'm forgiven but I'm not going to forget so I'm not really caring but at the same time you're not going to write me a letter and ask me to

or tell me that you'll tell these dudes here that I'm good. Nah, I'm not doing that. That's something that you got to wear it. So, you know what I mean? So me saying that, I say this, that, you brought that jacket, so you wear that jacket, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like I said, I was numb to a lot of things. Even after I got my death family overturned, I was numb to a lot of things

because I still watched my kids grow up. Only times I was able to talk to them and through letters and pictures, you know, and little drawings like little construction paper Father's Day cards and like that, I trenches stuff like that. But I stayed in a lot of trouble. You know what I'm saying?

Throughout my whole bid, I went to all the lockdown programs except ADX, you know what I'm trying to say? I stayed in trouble. And from one thing or another, from disobeying the order to, you know what I'm saying? Stabbers and fightings and all that stuff like that, even COs.

I had to fight lieutenant and CEOs. I got tickets for that. But at the same time, what I'm trying to say is that when I said I was numb to a lot of things, because even after I was sent, it seems like they just kept coming out of me. Why wouldn't you allow me to be on the East Coast, you know what I'm saying to be around my family? And they try to say influence because, you know, that would happen with the Latin King thing or whatever like that. You know, I'm trying to say, you know. Can you describe that what happened with Latin Kings?

Yeah. Well, we was an MCC, and my co-defendants that came in on our case, the superseded indictment, and I was in Ordersville, they was in MCC. And they got into it over the pool table or whatever like that. But that day, that next day, people that came up on a bus, they was talking about what happened with the MCC. And the Latin Kings was asking like, yo, who's he, who the Lynch Mall, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So somebody came and told me, they was like, yo, Latin King's asking

who would have lunch mob is. So I went to them. I'm like, yo, what's going on? So when they told me what happened, yo, nong, you know what's saying, the lynch mob and your co-defendants and my people got into it,

you know, I'm trying to say blah, blah, blah. But what threw me off was the language that they use and describe in the situation like, yo, we're just waiting for word. So it snapped me and like, yo, what you mean? You're waiting for word.

Like, you're waiting to move on. The rest of us. or something like that. But anyway, long story short, we went to the gym that night and it just kept being on my brain like, yo, you know what I'm saying? And I didn't want to get in no trouble

because I had been in trouble already and been locked down. They've been threatened to, you know, send me to Lewisburg to lock down and bring me back to the court from there. And I never could stay in the MCC. Well, after that, I couldn't stay MCC. So I went to the gym that night

and my man, Fred came to me. He was like, shout out to Fred from 19th Street, Two. She said, the garage boys. He came to me and was like, yo, Lou, I think the Latin Kings of the midst. You had to us, you know what I'm saying, trying to make a move because it's in the recreation room. So, you know, that's the way they have all the tools that for the gym. So when I went bass and I seen them, I was like, oh, yeah. So I was like, all right.

So we had a game that day. So I just said, no, I'm going to chill. So I ain't telling anybody what I was going to do. So I stepped by the weight, pal, where you go out the door. I said, I'm going to grab one of these five pounds. I'm going to wear these niggas out. But long story short, I just said, man, I ain't worrying about this. Well, I'm worrying about them.

These ain't nobody. So I went to, when I'm coming to approach them, they're coming out. So what made me react is because when I asked him, I'm like, yo, what y'all having a meeting or what that happened in MCC? So what threw me off was that he, when he said, nah, Lou, what happened to MCC? So everybody on the compound knew what happened. So when he said that, that threw me off like, you know. you're trying to cover it up.

So I just start hooking on them and just start swinging. But at the same time, I was like, man, there's pull-ups and this weightlifting got me like a superhero because they were just dropping. I was like, so everybody ran off the court. But they wound up locking us all down.

But I made it back to the unit. When I went back to the unit, we have a cinema riot and a unit with the Spanish and the blacks in the unit. So that's what made them lock them down, you know. But one thing I noticed about this thing, like even the dude is facing time, they still get scared when the FBI come to see him

because when we're in the hole, the fares is coming to see us. You know what I'm trying to say? But one of the dudes that I stabbed in the unit, he used that as a excuse to tell on his case that was the Latin King. So he'd go to court in a wheelchair and tell him that this is what happened

when you're in the game. You know what I'm saying? So that's how he started telling him, but he used that as excuse when he got stabbed. you know, but it was just crazy that they try to, every little thing the prosecutor tried to use in my case. That's why I said, Joe, it's like a repeated. And the reason

why I said it's repeated because Trump had gave us back our time, you know, trying to have extra days in the time, right, right before I was coming home. So that pushed me close to the door. Right. Like six months to a year. And also I put in for the COVID thing

and I had all the sentences, you know, trying to say, because, you know, a lot of sweets and sourcing it. So I was borderline diabetes and I had high blood pressure. So that put me at the risk. But they did not have scraed. Oh, they didn't even take a week to send me back my. But the funny thing is that I got to say it to say that.

He gave us back our time. You know what I'm saying? So that pushed me close to the door. So before they came out with that law, your unit team could recommend that you put in a year because you are the time that you get in. You know what I'm saying? But now it's guaranteed again.

So they put in for my year, but they came back and said they had to redo my paper. But then when she did redo my paper, this time, she only put in for six months. So I filed on it, you know what I'm saying? Because I felt like, yo, why is y'all playing games with my time? You know what I'm saying? I'm guaranteed, yeah, it's in your law. So the regents said they couldn't do nothing to me, do nothing for it. I had to file on it because that was the decision that they went off based on where their decision.

So I went to file on it, and they realized they're wrong because now I'm starting to file on it and making the lawsuit. because y'all going to disinquoted to a law that was put in place. But what happened is that when I do finally get home, right, they sent me straight to the halfway house, you know? So I waited 10 days to see my counselor there. She said, what is I'm doing there? I'm like, but you mean what I'm not, what I'm doing here? They sent the report to the halfway house.

She said, but you ain't supposed to be here. You know what I'm saying? You're supposed to go, this. When screen home, a home can finally come pick your bracelet up and go home. I'm like, wow. So they sent me there for none. But not only that, she said I suppose that came home a month earlier. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. So I'm like, man, what is it? So they plan with me all the way around. So the system has been specifically targeting you, railroading you, trying to fuck you since the 80s. When I look at it, I'm just like, man, what is this? But why do you think that is? Like, are you really that bad? I don't know.

But like I said, when I look at it, like I said, I don't know if it's a political thing or something like that. or whatever it is. But at the same time, I'm just looking at all the little things that just play into effect all the way to the time I came home. I mean? We've also gotten a lot of trouble

when you were locked up. So don't you think that? I mean, I know a lot of people got in a lot of trouble when you're in a USP, but do you think all those tickets had something to do with it? What's a political book?

Well, I think just them, you know, doing everything they can to keep you in there for as long as possible. Well, once you lose all your good time, And that's it. You know what I'm saying? Unless you catch a new time.

So if either one of them in that, it's no reason for them to, you know, trying to say to. Yeah. You know what I mean? So try to hold me in there any longer than I have to because, like I said, that becomes a lawsuit for every day that I, like, you know, for that 30 days that I supposed to be home, that's a lawsuit. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Did, uh, so you lost all your good time.

Yeah. Basically. Because you're off of 30 in the feds. should be out by like 20 and 25. I did 30. Wow. Yeah, including the time that you were fighting your case, right? No, I did the 27 plus the, um, when I came on for a row.

Oh, you went back for, no. My pretty big time to add up to 30, the 27 plus the three years for a row. That's 30 years. Right. Oh, you consider parole doing time. It is doing time. You got to be poured in. It's just that you got a little more luxury.

Right, right. You know what I mean? You're home. but you're definitely not free. Right. Yeah. Wow. So 30, and plus your state bid, 35 years in prison.

Right. Wow. More time than I had in society. Wow. Isn't that incredible? What do you think the best part of that was, the silver lining? As far as what? As far, like, what positive thing can you glean out of all that time away?

Well, I guess, you know, every, every experience build the character of a person. You know, I'm trying to say whether it be a good or a bad. So, like, you know, like I took minds all the way to the door, but I came home with a positive state of mind. You know what I mean? To make a, no, not to come back and do the same thing. And I was, you know what I'm saying? Not even come back to the, you know, where and do the, let the temptations of the streets of what I once did throwing me back into that. So now I'm taking a different approach at life now, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. You know? For sure. Like when I came home, my main thing was to reach back to the prisons and help the brothers that was coming home to find jobs, apartments and all the rest of that stuff, as well as the legal part that was people with life sentences like that. But when I got home and I seen the state of the young people that was coming up, and it's not the same. But when I had a reason to be in the street, you don't have a reason. to be a lot of times y'all come from mother and father being in the household both have good

jobs about your everything and for y'all to just be worn with the next block over nothing you know trying to say it ain't about no money i'm like yo they lost now yeah you know what's my life is a bygone but it became worship because now y'all doing sinless killing and it's all old teenagers killing each other. So I thought I will not come home instead of dealing with the in prison. Why don't not try to stop the youth from repeating, you know, trying to say before they even get to that part, whether it be a juvenile or, you know what I'm saying, a state jail, you know what, you know what I'm saying? Whatever, a while or even the feds. Why can't I just, you know, trying to reach them? And I feel if I can reach at least two to three of them out of ten, I'm doing good, you know what I'm saying?

And it's the same thing when I feel about Harlem. Like I said, I'm not racist, but I'm a Muslim. I'm not racist. But I feel that we should have a community. You know what I'm saying? So if it take me anywhere from like 10 to 15 years or two I'm taking from this world, you know what I'm trying to say? And I accumulate something that's accomplished for me,

especially if I can teach to you like, yo, we got to start building the community back now. Y'all got a lot of good opportunities, you know what I'm saying? And I don't blame the rappers and all that because once they get money and this like any basketball player, they get money, they don't know what to do with it. But at the same time, they don't give it to the community. I never asked them for nothing, but at the same time, I do ask them to be supportive. You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of times with my organization, I do things out my pocket.

I have been doing things out my pocket and I'm trying to get back to the community, you know. And like I said, I took mine to the door in the jail because jail is territorial, especially in the feds. You know what I'm saying? It's like not you in the state, you know what I'm saying? Harlem, Brooklyn, that's the divided right there. but at the same time in our state

you are forced to be a man meaning that you know okay you're under this umbrella but you're going to fight too you know what I'm trying to say to prove yourself but in the affairs it's like it's like more politics

you know what I'm saying you got the gangs the states and the south the north and stuff like that you know what I'm saying and I realized like from the time I came into the prison everybody did a bit before so we came into the federal system

them gunhole. And then as a time wore off, the younger brothers that was coming in, they had the language of, you know what I'm saying? Like, they, you know, they was that killer type. When they got into something, it wasn't added up. So I was getting into problems that wasn't even my own because I felt it was a, what you said, it was like a reflection of me, you know what I'm saying? Oh, you got Lou on the compound.

He's from New York. This is what happened to a New York. Nah, we're not doing that because I just felt a reflection of, me. You know what I'm saying? So a lot of things I didn't condone as the years went on. But when I first got it, I didn't care what it is. If you get into it in one of the minds, this is what we're doing. You know what I'm saying? So when I first came and I had a lot of dudes like Doc Schoakorke, Orbach Freight, those are the older dudes that we looked up to when we came to Atlanta. And they was telling me, yo, look, because when I first got to Atlanta, the first thing,

like the first three days I was on it, I get into it with some DEC dudes and Albaugh. was like, yo, it's like 300 D.C. dudes on the company. I'm like, I don't care. You know what I'm trying to say? Because I got the time and all the rest of that stuff like that. So I didn't care. And I'm carrying like, you know what I'm saying? From the state automatically when I come in the jail, I know what to do.

I'm going to put my do rag on and get me a knife. But at the same time, what I'm trying to tell you is that as the years went along, they wasn't coming in. These young dudes spend more times on video games than going to PL, learn how to box. You know what I'm trying to say so. I learned how to box from P.A.L. fighting in my house or when I went to the state jail, you know what I'm saying? So I knew how to do that. I know how to make a knife. I know how to fight with a knife. I know how to fight with a knife. I know how to fight with a knife. I know how to fight with a knife? Can you fight with a knife? Can you enlighten us? Nah, I don't do that because people won't want to copy it. If that's the case, I want a class just for that. I want to know just for me.

Just I think that's fascinating. It seems pretty. Me and myself, you know, the same way I fight. I just hold a knife like that. You know what I'm going to say? Right. You know? So you're saying obviously the younger generation is a lot softer,

which I think is a good thing in certain ways. I think there's negative things to it. But I think the, I think overall the youth are less violent, except of course these teenagers running around shooting themselves. But, yeah. I don't know. I think you're from like especially gangster era. I just do.

What I'm trying to say is that it become a problematic for you. I'm trying to say when they come in like that because now, you know, a lot of times when people come in, okay, you know, we're going to govern each other. But at the same time, I don't want to have to have a watch for it.

I don't want everything you do. So you do you. Whatever trouble you get in that, you know what I'm saying? That's what it is if you're going to govern it. But when they start coming in and they can't govern their actions But they speak this language. You're thinking the one thing, like, if you come,

the first thing, you know what I'm saying? They hear stories, so they feel that they got to come in and be that. You know what I'm trying to say? So the first thing they say, yo, man, they come to the compound. They hear about the compound that's kind of wild or whatever like that. So first thing they said, yo, somebody in Oklahoma or somebody trans has been like, yo, when you get there, get you a knife. So they come to the homies, yo, give me a knife.

Okay, when you get your paperwork, you write. All right. So when you get to a knife, you know what I'm saying? You, I don't want you, if I give you a knife, why is you coming back to me doing lunchtime or when you got to leave the building. I'm like, yo, Lou, where I'm going to put this at? Or can you hold this? Nah, that's yours.

I got my own. You know what I'm saying? So why? You know what I'm trying to say? That's something that you're supposed to do, you know what I'm saying? So when I say that, and then you got the language and the attitude that you want to fight a and then when you get into with a person, and then when you get into, you're going to sell, y'all be in there two, three minutes and now come out.

I'm like, yo, what happened? Or I'm going to hide. You come out with your lip busted your eyes. I'm like, nah, you know what I'm saying? because like you said, my mentality, you know what I'm trying to say, which I was bredded from the state prison is that I'm not trying to get into no beef

with no body period. I'm going to try to alleviate it. So if you up here with it, then I'm going to take it up there and I'm going to feel that that's how you want it. So if I give it to you like that, that's what you ask for. You know what I'm trying to say?

But if me and you go head up, one and one, I'm expecting you to feel the same way I'm feeling. That means I'm trying to kill you because I know you're trying to kill me. So I'm not trying to really get in. to that, but if I know if I got to get into it, that's what it is. So to avoid all that stuff, you know, one thing about me since I've been in jail,

I got all kinds of wounds and all that stuff. So anybody that told me they gangsters on the street or was in jail, they ain't been shot, stabbed, and they ain't even have a fight. Nah, nah, you know what I'm trying to say? I got all kind of wound wounds, you know what I'm trying to say. So don't think that, you know what I'm saying, me being up here and I'm telling my story that I'm a superhero,

nah, I have my licks too. You know what I'm saying? But at the same time, it's my way of survival. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm not going to say I ain't going for nothing but at the same time this is my way of survival

I'm carrying the way I know it to be and I've been the same way since I was a kid you know what I'm saying my first day on Rackers Island my nephew Danny Bloop we came in

we was dressed down you know what I'm saying you know how Harlem dudes stay fly so we was dressed down and all that like that and the first thing the dude told my nephew

I guess because he was the more lighter skin and kind of little smaller than me told him like y'all I'm trying to see you for your sneakers I said no you ain't doing that you're seeing me this is our first day

on Rockings Island. You got to remember, we were 16, my first day. So we hear stories, so I know what we got to do. So I came in with blood in my eyes. Yo, look, this is what we doing. You know what I mean? So since then, you know, I've been the same, even when I was doing a street before a kid. You know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to pat myself on a black because a lot of stories that you may hear from the jail, it may come from others because I don't share certain stories. I'm not going to go into details and tell you what happened with this, with the police, the list, this, and this and whatever. I'm not going to do all that. I give you a briefing that I did did it, but whoever else that was there, they can give you a better briefing

because I don't pat myself on the back, but this is the way I am. And I'm talking about from dealing from the youth to the date and from like the way I was brought up. You know, I'm trying to say, you know, the older dudes that was like they, you know, and the thing about it, you know, when I said I got my education from the state, you know, you could take a piece of steel and really make a real knife out of this joint. And, you know, I'm trying to say where you can cut stuff, cut a piece of meat or a piece of bread with these joints. So you know, you can imagine, but you got a real knife in the jail.

That's homemade. You know what I'm saying? You know, you've been there before. You know what I'm saying? So like I'm saying, you know, so that my mentality, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know? Yeah, you're one of the few cats that's real old school and that you're guarded by what you

say. And that's how I know you're the real deal because you're so humble. Even when we try to get these stories out of you, you always like, qualify them with, look, this is just what we had to do. Certain things I'm not going to talk about, even though I got convicted of, I'm not going to talk about,

but certain things I am going to lie. So if I talk about a robbery and I go into details or something to drugs, I can do that. But at the same time, a lot of my old ways, I try to suppress them, don't you what I'm saying?

And at certain points, I feel that they may come out if somebody say something that's, you know what I'm saying? So I still have that effect from the prison, dealing with certain things in society. And that was one of the reasons where I came home and I had to see the psych and all the rest of that shit because I had to adapt back into society.

You know what I'm saying? And the reason why I say that because when I came home, I was jumping in the shower with my drawers, my underwear is on and slippers and everything. I was like, oh, man, what the, you know what I'm saying? Stuff like that. And, you know, when I was like, you know, I'll be eating and like, you know, people would be like, yo, why are you holding your food like that? You know what I'm going to guard on my food like that.

Or even when I'm in the mall and I see so much movement, I'm like, yo, they were like, yo, I'm laughing, but I get serious and just start looking around. Like even on the film that we went to, I'm looking at, I'm like, yo, you know what I'm saying? You can tell that I'm looking around. Like, we went to Miami and Vegas, and they film it, and everybody else talking. But I'm busy looking around and surroundings. I'm like, yo, damn, I didn't catch myself, but it's like I fall out of habit. Yeah.

So I'm still, like, affected about the penitentiary. You're like a veteran of war. Right. You know, that's the PTSD that the vets have. No bulldo, no bull, though, because a female told me that she said, like, when I first came, I'm just really getting over it. She's just like, why you keep jumping in your sleep? I said, well, every time you move, I'm going to move. You know, something like that, you know what I mean?

So, you know. Yeah. That was a hard time you did. Yeah. Yeah. And what about Islam? How deep into your bid did you find Islam and become Muslim? Oh, man, that was a, that was a safe.

it is. You know, Islam brought me, you know, brought me not only the awareness of a law, but it humbled me in a lot of ways. You know what I'm saying? Even now it humbled me in a lot of ways, meaning it gives me a lot of my thoughts, my thought process thinking is different now, you know, I'm trying to say, meaning that a lot of things I would have moved on impulse, I curb it. Even when I'm, even like, even as far as like cursing using different languages or dealing with females in a certain type of way, because I watch my mom's

in certain abusive relationship and sometimes it affects me with certain females and I'll be saying to myself I wonder what's my mom's the same because it's like certain females may be on a nagging you'd be like man why the fuck am I'm going through this

excuse my language but why I'm going through this I'm out of here so I'm more quick to believe than the state in deal with the abuse that one may you know trying to say put on me for things that I think they ain't worth it You know what I mean?

So Islam has taught me to, you know, like for the females to give them their rights and you don't try to say certain things like that taught me, you know, it taught me a lot. You know what I mean? And discipline. Right. Discipline. Most definitely taught me to discipline. Yeah. You know.

Were you in there more diplomatic than I am now than I was back then? Were you in there praying five times a day? And I still do that out here. Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. Like, you know, and I'm not going, I'm not, I'm not saying it's because I'm on Camble. when I come to New York, you know, I meet the brothers at the mosque, you know what I'm saying? It's the Mars in Atlanta.

I got a few New York dudes down there, you know what I'm saying? Shout out the Red Bug and Red. You know what I'm saying? Salam-Lakum. You know, I go to the Mars down there and I see them brothers every Friday. So that's why I like little conjugation that we meet and see each other from down there on Friday congregation. Yeah. What's next?

Well, we have the book, which you've got to go get once upon a time in Harlem, maybe a movie. and your foundation or your organization. Can you tell us what that is, what you do with it? Well, the foundation is for the youth programs, but I also add other bulletin to it. I'm dealing with mental health, the female group that deal with females that are abuses, that have been abuse and stuff like that.

We're dealing with the young youth that's been sexual, you know what I'm saying? no, sex, or abuse and stuff like that. We're dealing with a little bit of everything on that stuff. And most of the, what I'm trying to really get is with the elders, too. You know what I'm saying? Because the elders need us too. You know what I'm saying?

So my main thing is like to get the youth and, you know, get them on the street and get them some of the senator to get off the street, but have them something to do because a lot of programs that we had in place back then, they don't have them no more. So they don't have nowhere to go, but to be on the street and do certain things that may be illegal. Yeah.

You know? So that's, frankly, with the group, I mean, but my program consists of, and they got a lot of mental health in New York, so we're trying to get that too under the umbrella. Yeah. But right now, I'm not going,

I'm not going to jinx myself and tell you what networks, but we're dealing with a few networks that got my story in looking at the story, you know what I'm saying? And they're talking good, but they talk in series, you know what I'm saying? Because they like the part about the jails, you know what I'm saying? Stuff like that, jail stories and all that stuff like that. So I'm just waiting.

I've been patiently waiting. But, you know, you know how long it takes. Sometimes it may take two years or three years for them to get to a project. That's why we podcast. Because we don't have to wait for anybody. I'm thinking about doing one of these two. Everybody else doing one, you know. But I got to.

those in order and I just opened me and my own me and my man Jew we just opened up the lounge on a 113 where I grew up right around the corner from where I grew up at called hollam and more you know what I'm saying but we're still waiting for certain things so we can really fully open up and do what we got to do in there but you know I just recently came from up there promoting the grant promoting the opening of that you know so that's one of the little things that I got going on so like I said if I can grab one piece of property two people property in Harlem to show that it's mine and it's black owned and that's what I'm trying to do

but at the same time it's a lot of I'm reaching out to a lot of things you know what I'm trying to get into whatever whatever I can reach out and get into that's beneficial I can get a dollar you know what I'm gonna do it you know what I'm not greedy too because you know whatever when I eat

you know what I'm saying the community you're going to eat and I'm bringing back because I'm not there food drive cold drives and all that came out of my pocket of course I have supporters that helped me get certain things but a lot of the large portion of that came out of my pocket, you know what I mean? Yeah. But you need to people, if you want Harlem to stay black, you got to have a reason for black people to be there.

Like, so you got to open businesses. You got to do what you do. And who is the gentleman we went to at like Legends Lounge? Right. Anthony. What is his name? Antonio. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tone. Yeah. He was a cool dude. Like he's like, he's from that era and he did a lot of time. But now he's back and he's like buying business after business. Like that's dope. We got a linkage agreement too. So me and his organization is running hand to hand.

We got a linguist agreement where everything we do, we do it together. Oh, okay. So that's like, you know, my partner with the organization, you know, he got 12 years in, you know what I'm saying? Miles is like the, his is the senior. So, you know, he's been teaching me a lot of things and we've been doing a lot of things together, you know. Man, do you find it amazing that you survived? just looking back and everything that you just told me

about your life, it's pretty wild that you didn't get killed or not doing life without, you know? I believe this. I believe this. A lot of do things for a reason. He brought me back for,

he allowed me to, you know what I'm saying, to go through what I went through to get to where I'm at now. You know what I'm saying? So whatever his reason for allowing me to come back, tell my story,

and get back to the community, that's what they have planned for me. You know what I'm saying? But I'm hoping. and it'll be a hum to a lot, all will be good instead of bad now. You know what I mean? But at the same time,

what I'm saying is, um, had I been in the street when I went to jail, I think I probably would have got killed. Right. If, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, I was, I was guarded by those that I thought was enemies or how you say ops now, I was guarded with them always on point, you know what I'm trying to say.

I don't have shootouts where I was shot. and came out on the victim on certain things on that. But what I'm trying to say is that I don't feel the ops probably would have got at me. If it would have probably been on always time, your time to go. I really feel at this point right here, it would have had to have been somebody that I was close to.

You know what I'm trying to say? Because the way they did me on my case, it's like, yo, y'all was just dead for there. Y'all ain't really cared nothing about me. So had push come to show, y'all would have had to, you know, and I had to go, y'all would have got rid of me. You know what I'm trying to say. So that's what it was because when I look at everybody that I had on my team,

you know what I'm trying to say? So when I look at that, it probably would have happened. Probably the jail, you can't, you probably could say that it did save me, but it also helped me a lot because it educated me in a lot of ways, too. You know what I'm saying? I'm not talking about educated parts using big words and being able to elaborate in certain things. It gave me a history to where I was able to study certain things.

Like I said, I watched my kids grow up in pictures. And one thing about it, one day I was. I was, when I, since I've been home, I was watching, they was going to do the legends of Harlem kids. And I watched my son be an interview and he was like, he said, he went to school. And he was to school because he wanted to learn how to read and write so he can read my letters and write me letters. That would that touch me.

I was like, wow. You know what I'm saying? But the thing about it, he was living in a state. But when he come down to the city, he was hearing a story. So he followed my footsteps. He went to the juvenile, went to the state, and now he's back in there. And I still see he followed my footsteps because when I talk to him now, he's Muslim now. Wow.

And guess what? He know more Islam than I know because he can recite certain things. I know of it, but I can't put it in the same words as what it's being written. But he's learning now. So like I said, that's how I'm doing a law. You know, I'm trying to say. So, you know, man, so, you know, Allah has do things for a reason. I believe that, you know, even him following my footsteps because I worry about him all the time.

You know what I'm saying? For him going back to jail, I'm like, man, you went back, you know what I'm saying? So we used to all about certain things, you know, so now that me and him is closer now than we ever, you know what I'm saying? Because they used to let me call him from juvenile and he used to be asking me what's going on

and all the rest of that stuff. But he thought being in jail or acting up was the thing to do even on the street, you know what I'm saying? You know, yeah. And he's your youngest? No, he's my youngest. How many kids do you have? I got two boys and four girls.

Wow. How is everybody else? Oh, everybody's good. Was that hard? Girls is good. Was that, well, girls are just better. Better to have girls. Was that hard to repair the relationship when you first came home?

Or what was that like? Like, he really grabbed. He just didn't understand. Like, I came home before him. But then when we finally got together, it was like he didn't understand. It just didn't comprehend. You know, I'm in another state because I don't want to be up here. You know what I'm trying to say?

But at that same time, I was still like under parole and still dealing with a bracelet. So I would come to New York on a visit and stuff like that. And he couldn't understand why he couldn't come with, you know, stuff like that. So, man, I'm just getting arguments. Even if I come up with a female, he wanted to be like, yo, why she can't go by herself and me and you chill? So we get into an argument about like that.

But we didn't get into an argument. We get into an argument about certain things. And I thought like, why is you arguing about that? But recently he just broke down and told me like, yo, man, you know what I'm saying? Is you all I get? Like, it's me. you now. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I missed out on your life. You know, I'm trying

to say my mother wasn't there for me. And like, you know, he'd tell me a lot now. Like, he's opening up. But at the same time, he's, he's understanding everything that I told him because he's hot-headed. You know what I'm saying? When dealing with a lot of things, he's hot-headed. But now when I tell him things, he accepted for what it was, for what it is. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes I got to let him vent and get his side out. And then once he, once he get it out, I got to, then I pull him back and tell him why we're doing certain things. You know what I'm you're a good guy I sense that right away

and maybe it's because I'm naive you know we were hanging out at legends last time I was in New York with Unique and that's when I met you and Tone and all these old cats and you know probably a lot of you know probably a lot of homicides and amongst the group

but I I didn't care I didn't see any of that I didn't sense any of that but I was immediately drawn to you I was like Lou is lose just the man and what do you think your what do you think your legacy in Harlem is

how other people know you and how are you perceived? And what do people get wrong about you, I guess too? I mean, you know, a lot of times people get wrong you know what I'm saying? The history of me back then they don't realize that I was a product or discreet so I was living the street the way I was taught to live the street, that was a survival.

Everything has always been a survival. I was against all odds from, I was a kid. You know what I'm saying? And even when I went to state prison, you got to remember, it was more Brooklyn dude than it was Harlem's. So I had to stand on a represent. So I had to do what I had to do in order for me to be a name in the state jail. You know what I'm saying?

As a youth. And the same thing happened in the feds, you know what I mean? So even on the street, I was, I felt I was against all odds. You know what I'm trying to say? Because you got to remember, I was a young kid. dealing with adults at that time. You know what I'm saying? You know?

Everything, like I said, I never had a childhood because I had a kid. I was 14 years old when my first baby moms got pregnant. I had them when she was when I was 15. So you got to remember I'm still a kid trying to get money to buy Pambors and the rest of that stuff and be a father. I don't even have no way to take my kid.

So, you know what I'm saying? So I was forced to this. A lot of girls that I deal with like she was two years older than me. She ain't even know how old I was, you know what I mean? So, you know, a lot of female, you know, like I was forced to be a dope. You know what I mean? So I was against all my whole life. Yeah, I hear that story from most of those cats.

And I think that's what the system got wrong is like just because you guys did bad things inherently, it doesn't make you bad people. And when I was in prison, I saw that. I'm like, 2% of these people in here are like psychopaths, incorrigible. They need to be here forever. everybody else was kind of just a product of where they came from. But, I mean, one thing about me, though, you know what I'm saying? People can judge, those are people that, the people that judge me for being wrong,

those are the people that don't know me. Only things that they're here. Because if you knew me, you'll know that I stay on joke time all day long. You'll never know if I'm, I'll have something wrong with or not unless I'm in deep thought. You know what I'm saying? A female that I'm dealing with, she ain't going to never know anything I'm dealing with

because I don't bring that type of energy around her. So if they tell her something that, you know, you know, he's such a kid, like, nah, that ain't what he is. Well, if that's what it is, I don't know him to be that. Right. You know what I'm saying? Unless she's a squeak girl and she hears this and then, you know, I'm trying to see. But at the same time, a lot of my character risks is with people to describe me up is not that up. You know what I'm trying to say?

Like, a dude told me as a gangster. I was like, I never consider myself no gangster. It's just me being me. But at the same time, what is a gangster? Because me, I'm a laugh, joke, dance, and all that. So if the gangster don't do all of that, then that's not me. You know what I'm trying to say? So, you know, most time when people say that gangsters,

you see them with the mean mug all day long. You know what I'm trying to say? They don't want to, you joke on them. They want to get serious. You know what I'm trying to say? Stuff like that, they go to parties. They don't want to dance. You know what I mean?

That's not me. I'm not going to do too much dance. I do a one, too, but, you know what I'm saying? I'm going to have a good time. Right. You know what I'm saying? Especially if I'm a monk family. You know what I'm saying?

When I can let my guards down. Yeah. you know, certain characteristics that a person may hear and try to put it as, that's what I am. Okay, that's what it is. That's what you hear. But when you get around, you say, oh, this is a different thing like that.

Like you said it. So when you sitting there, like, if I was coming in a room and you wouldn't have nothing that, nothing that about me before you seen me, you was like, nah, I don't believe that because this dude, his energy is totally different. You know what I'm saying? You know, he ain't serious.

He ain't like, yo, you know what I'm saying? Right, right. What are your regrets from that era? What do you wish you could have done differently? I mean, certainly a remarkable thing that you never even, you never did that most of your peers did was ratted. You never opened your mouth. You've got to be happy about that.

Did that ever cross your mind? Were you offered a deal by the government? No, they never come to me. Oh. You even have a chance. Matter of fact, that's in my transcripts in the Alabama court. Because they said every time I got arrested doing the state, I would not, I would not even, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Whatever done my randoms, I never, you know what I'm saying? So he said, what's the thing about it? I was the first to get locked up. So I had my opportunity to be like, yo, this is what I'm doing. To raise your hands, but those are saying I ain't had nobody telling them all.

They didn't set me no. I was got locked up first. I'm trying to say, but this is a, I believe like this, and I was taught this, that it's the consequences for everything. So if you know what you're doing and what can lead to certain things in that, you've got to deal with that.

So you got to, your actions cause for consequences. so you've got to be held accountable for that. You know what I'm saying? And that's what I, that's what I base myself on, like, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? But at the same time, when I say,

um, dudes that do tell, they got every excuse to say what I tell. And they think about it half the time, they don't be offered them a lot of time anyway. Because one of my court defender was only left off of 10 years. You know what I'm saying? When I got locked up,

I was only, I was only facing five years for a gun charge. Then I got a conspiracy that they was 15. I was like, you, I could do that. I'm good. You know what I'm saying?

When they got all the rest, I thought I was through, you know what I mean? Right. But at the same time, what I'm saying is that you got to be responsible for your own consequences. And me growing up in that period of time, in that time where,

you know what I'm saying, even if you was even thought to be a snitch, whether it was true or not, this is what happened. You know, trying to say. That's why I, I hold close to every little thing that's pertaining to my case, I studied it.

So I know every time these dudes went and messed with me with these people, because it's like I said, it's called a prophet hearing. So I studied all that. I was like, wow, you've been doing this all along, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you was going to court with us, you know what I mean? So maybe you, if you had a regret, it would be you didn't surround yourself with the stand-up people. No, I'm not even, I'm not even, that's not a, that's not a, that's not a, that's not a,

You know what I'm saying? That's a learning experience. Right. Minor grit is that even though I thought I was doing good by my mom's in them, I realized I wasn't, you know what I'm trying to say? And that was a hurtful friend because, you know, like I said, me and my nephew, we grew up as brothers. So my moms are still hanging out going to balls and, you know, when I was a kid.

But I didn't give her to what I needed to do. My grandmother raised me, you know what I'm saying? So when she died, I thought I would cry. But it took me like two years. And I woke up in my sleep crying in a cell with one of my own homies, and I had to apologize. But he said that was something that I had in me that needed to get out. I had a dream about it.

I woke up. But at the same time, when my mom's dad, I was in, I was in Farms, Colorado, and they was closing Marion down. So they kept trying to send me to ADX. You know what I'm saying? But ADX kept denying me because they said, if it's not no police or nobody, they're not accepting it, you know what I'm saying? So they kept putting me in and in and in.

so that I wound up being like eight months to a year. So when the counselor called me out, I'm thinking it was dealing with my transfer. Like they putting me in again or I got my proof for a transfer. But when he told me that I came in and laughing and joking, when he told me that my mom died, all the magnitude just came out of me and start crying.

And then I realized, yo, it's that attachment that I had to, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So now I regret not spending that time with my moms are doing more for her. You know what I'm saying? Even though she liked playing. numbers, you know what I'm saying, go to Atlantic City and gambling and all the rest of that

stuff. And she ain't asked for much. But at the same time, I regret certain things that I, you know what I mean? You know, like my brother Kite offered to get her house. My brother Harry brought her cars and all that stuff. But that's beyond that stuff like that. I wish I would have spent more time with her. You know what I'm saying? Because, you know, as you get older, you know, the family functions become a bygone. Like you'll come there and you're gone. But before that, you should spend all that time, that whole holiday in the house, the whole family, you know what I'm saying? And that little cramped up house. So I regret a lot, not giving that back to her, you know what I'm saying, like that.

So that's one of my regrets. But another regret, I love my kids and everything, but I wish I would have had all my kids by one lady. Yeah, yeah. I imagine. That gets pretty expensive and stressful. Nah, it's like, you know, it's a battle, man. You know, like, you know, you got these two that grew up together because they two moms was cool. then you got the other ones that have them.

So I can't get them in a room together where we as a family because any little things, they're like bailing for attention or about, you know what I'm saying? It's like hard. You know what I'm saying? So that's one of the regrets that I had. I wish I'd have had kids by one girl. Even if we were couldn't be together,

I wish I'd just had that. You know what I'm saying? So they could have been in the house together. Well, you know, one regret you should not have as being black because after having an incredibly stressful life, you have not cracked. You look great for, for almost 60 years old.

Okay. 60 this is. Wow, that's incredible. Lou Sims, once upon a time in Harlem, a real stand-up dude. Not many guys like you left. And so it's important that we go buy your book. Of course, sell your book.

I read books for almost all the guests that I have on. And this is by far my favorite. Go out on Amazon and get it. But just you documenting this incredibly fascinating part of American history. You were part of American history. This is what I tell unique. Many, most people don't have stories like these that are around. You know, so you're a survivor of like this urban war.

And, yeah, I don't know. You just add to the fabric of our society. So welcome home. We're going to switch over and talk a little bit more on the Patreon. But anything else besides the book that you want people to go follow? Well, it was the book. The reason why made me to push the story because I ain't want to, you know, I'm not into telling those stories or nothing like that.

And like I said, that story right there is just the outline. You know what I'm saying? The movie might go into more details. But the reason why, because a person told me, he's like, no, everybody got a story, but everybody, what makes your story unique? You know what I'm saying? So he told me because everybody that got money,

had girls, had cars, you know what I'm trying to say, and even being whatever. But at the same time, what makes my stories unique when not only the political part or everything else I've been through, You know what I'm saying? So I was like, you know something, you're right. So I just started to push it on that angle right now. Yeah, no, it's different.

You're absolutely right. This is not like your typical urban, like, street story. This has got a lot of elements, again, that have to do with the politics of the time. And, you know, it's fascinating to see how, like, how people thought back in the 80s and 90s. Like, they were like, these are super predators. Right. When you guys were just, like, kids in your early 20s, they just had this windfall. of drug money. Anybody would

acted like that. Like it's you know, so yeah, go get the book and let's talk a little bit more on the Patreon but thanks for coming out here, man. Really, really appreciate you. We're going to go up to New York and we're going to film, we're going to do some more work together bro. And then New York, go

check out, plug the lounge really quick too. Oh, the lounge is on a hundred thirteen between a hundred, 112, or 113th, 8th Avenue. Oh, it's called Harlem Mall. It's a small one, but it's an upscale, fashionable one, you know. Ain't going to be too much of that twerking in there. It's going to be laid back, you know, nice food.

You know, you can bring your girl in there have a drink, you know what I'm saying? And even have nice little private parties. Hell yeah. Okay. You know, the last one we had up there, it was a good turnout, you know. Old, you know, you had different generations that came all the way to the young that came and blend in there. They showed love.

Yeah. And, you know, I thank y'all for coming out for me, you know. You know, that's one thing. I say Harlem will come out. But don't only come out to get a drink, man. Come out to these programs, man, to help us, man. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Bring this back to where it need to be, especially Harlem, man. You know? Yeah. We don't have to come pop a bottle all the time. Sure. You come out and give a coat out. You must have.