The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Inside Pelican Bay SUPERMAX Prison: Latino Gang Leader On Surviving Race Riots, Stabbings, & The SHU

Episode Date: June 8, 2025

Step inside the walls of one of America’s most notorious prisons through the firsthand experiences of Mario Sanchez. Mario opens up about the true stories of survival, resilience, and reform having endured years in California’s harshest solitary confinement unit. He gives chilling insight into the psychological and physical toll of life in the SHU (Security Housing Unit), the controversial gang validation process, and the hunger strikes that sparked a national conversation on prison reform. This episode shines a light on the hidden world of supermax prisons—and the people fighting for change, both inside and out. Tune in for: -Unfiltered stories of survival and endurance from Pelican Bay’s solitary units -Being involved in one of the worst prison riots in U.S. history -A deep dive into the history, policies, and future of solitary confinement in America Go Support Mario! Website: https://www.relentless-mindset.com/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/theemariosanchez/ This Episode Is #Sponsored By The Following: HOF! Get a 7-Day Free Trial + 50% Off your first month with code CONNECT. Just download the HOF app on iOS or Android, enter code CONNECT, and you’re all set. True Classic! Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at trueclassic.com/CONNECT! #trueclassicpod Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Nailed the speech and maxed out your credit card in the name of friendship. Now you've got one hangover, four pastel dresses, and zero reasons to wear them again. Sell them on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. And you at least get some of your dignity, money back. Someone on Deepop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Deepop where taste recognizes taste. I pistol whip people As I beat people up during certain robberies

I was like the muscle It's an armed robbery It's an assault It's a burglary false imprisonment There's a knock on the door And it was a cops That yard by far was the most violence I've seen in my life

I carried a razor blade in my mouth the whole time I was a soldier There wasn't no fist fighting on these yards Breaking skin You're trying to hurt somebody You're trying to kill somebody Mario Sanchez was born and raised In San Francisco California

He's a former Nortainio gang member Who served hard time in the shoe at Pelican Bay State Prison, California's most infamous and dangerous correctional facility. When Mario was just 19 years old, he and his crew went on a spree of armed robberies, pulling home invasions and kidnappings throughout the San Francisco area. He eventually got caught and sentenced to 10 years in the state system. He served time on all of the most dangerous yards in the state, including at Pelican Bay, where he was part of the worst race riot in the history of that prison.

You've probably seen the security footage on TV before. It was absolute mayhem. Two inmates got caught. killed and dozens more were stabbed and wounded. Mario was a faithful soldier, putting in work for the Nortenios wherever he went. But when he was finally handed the keys to the yard and made a shot caller, he decided to quit the gang life and finish out his sentence in peace. Once he got out, he became a successful millionaire mortgage broker only to lose it all after the 2008 financial crisis. The years that followed were up and down for Mario as he battled drug addiction and

depression. Finally, at his rock bottom, Mario decided to start rock. banks. After he knocked over a few branches of a local credit union, he got pinched and spent the next seven years fighting for his life. But in that time, he turned his life around for good, getting sober and starting a successful independent film company. The state eventually dropped his bank robbery case, and Mario was once again a free man. I love this episode. Mario's story is proof that it doesn't matter how many times in life we fuck up. As long as we pick ourselves up and keep moving forward, it'll all work out eventually. What a wild life. this man has had. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy Mario Sanchez right here on The Connect with

Johnny Mitchell. I ended up with the keys on the yard. It was rocking and rolling during that time. People were getting killed. We're getting killed by the cops out there. Whether you're ready or not, you better be ready. You know, 2007, that's when everything collapsed. This is when I came up with this amazing idea. I think I'm a rob a bank. It was really easy. So you know what? I'm going to do it again. You're from San Francisco? Born and raised. Wow. Your parents are from Mexico? They're from Mexico. What part of Mexico? My dad's from Mexico City. and my mom's from Durango.

Durango. Okay. So your mom was kind of the country one. Yeah, my mom's the country. My dad's a city slicker. I see. Yeah. I see.

And I'm a city slicker too. Yeah. I haven't met any Mexicans actually from San Francisco. Yeah. What part? I grew up in the Richmond district. So it's like they call it the avenues. It's like a mile away from the Golden Gate Bridge.

What was it like back then? Back in like the 70s and 80s, it was a predominantly like Asian and white neighborhood. And it's still like that to this. day. We were probably one of the only Mexican families in that area. Did you grow up well? What was the way? You know what? It's kind of weird because I think my parents wanted us to live in that neighborhood to like keep us away from bad neighborhoods because obviously there's still the mission. There's the other black neighborhoods. You know what I mean? But I think they chose to go to that neighborhood to make sure we grew up okay. And all of my brothers and sisters, you know, I have three

brothers and sisters that I went to college, graduated from college, which is kind of unheard of back in those days. For sure. And I was the only one in the family that got in trouble. Yeah. Why? What happened? When I graduated from high school, I graduated from high school in 1990. I didn't really have a lot of direction. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And so I started just working, doing odd jobs. I started partying a lot right after that. And then I also had a couple friends. I didn't want to work. I had a couple friends and they're like, let's start doing some licks, you know. And I had two crimeies. And basically we got into doing these home invasion robberies where we drive around certain neighborhoods early in the morning every Friday.

So the whole summer of 1992 from like June to September, we were doing these robberies every Friday like clockwork. Why Fridays? That was just the morning we picked. Yeah. And we just do them every morning at like literally eight, nine a.m. My friend would pick me up. We'd go case out a neighborhood. You know, at that time in San Francisco, there's people, you know, going in and out of their garage early in the morning.

We'd see somebody with their garage open. We'd run up on them. And I had a gun. My friends would, my other friend would, you know, tie people up. And the other third friend, people would, like, ransack in the house. That's serious business. Yeah. It's not a burglary.

It's a home of 19. I was 19 at the time. And I had no idea, you know, what I was really getting myself into. That was like the early version of the bipping they do now. Early 90s. Like San Francisco's this dichotomy between extreme wealth and really like a wild bandit crime. Right. Right.

So you guys are pulling home invasions. It could get you, you know, some places you get life for doing that. Kidnapping, robbery with a gun. They put a lot of charges on you for that. Yeah. What were you getting out of these licks? Um, jewelry, cash, um, smaller items, not even a lot. I mean, we were all teenagers. We were all like 19, 18 years old. It's not like we were walking away with safes or, you know, 20, 30 grand. We were

taking like cash, jewelry, small things. And, um, you know, we were, we were okay with that because we were young. And then we just go party all week and then we do it again the next week. How were you, how are you identifying the houses to hit? Um, we would go into the nicer neighborhoods. You know what I mean? And so my two crime partners, they were, um, Asian. So we would like go into the Asian neighborhoods. And during those years, there was a lot of Asian gangs, like in the early 90s. Like you remember like the Wachings, the Joe boys, Wo Hopto, were some of the gangs in San Francisco during those years. And so when we started doing all these licks, they even try to say that I was one of those guys.

And I'm like, I'm not in an Asian gang, you know what I mean? But they try to connect us to that type of world. Right. But that's what was going on in San Francisco during those years. The home invasion robberies were a big thing during. those years. Even amongst the like these Chinese gangs? Yeah.

Chinese gangs probably beat the news gangs. That was their thing. That was their thing. Wow. They were the ones doing the home invasion robberies during those years. Wow. Imagine getting held up by a bunch of small Chinese teenagers. I'd be furious.

I'd be like, come on. This is a, that's not a real gun. That's a fake. But I mean, each time we went and did these robberies, it's an armed robbery. It's an assault.

It's a burglary, false imprisonment, imprisonment, kidnap. Like, that's how all these charges. racked up. And by the time we were done, like in September when we finally got arrested, and they gave us like a 47-count indictment. So... Right. Okay. So they charged you with 47 home invasions. Well, 47 total charges.

I see. So it would be like one robbery, and then that would be like a burglary, false imprisonment, kidnap all all in one robbery. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if they wanted to, they could just run those bitches concurrent. You know, you could have been, if you were in Florida, you'd probably still be in prison. Yeah. Something like that. Do you remember any of these robberies that went wrong? The only one that went wrong was the last one, you know? And I think what happened was on the last robbery that we did, you know, it was just like another botched robbery where we felt like we needed to leave right away.

You know, something went wrong. And so my friends literally went to go drop me off at home. And it's like 9 a.m. And we're like kind of bummed because things didn't go well that day. And so I go home and literally within like two minutes later, there was a knock on the door, and it was a cops. And they were basically like waiting for us. So I opened the door, not knowing that if I just kept the door closed,

they would need like a search warrant or something like that to come into the house. I didn't do any of that. So I opened the door. They put the gun on me, get on the ground, pulled me out. There was like the whole block where I lived. I lived off of Fourth and Geary, Fourth Avenue in Geary. The whole block, there was like seven or eight. cop cars, the whole neighborhood's like checking everything out. It was like a real crazy scene.

So what happened at that robbery? I think just basically something went wrong or the the actual guy put up a fight and it started getting a little messy. And, you know, we didn't want to really hurt anyone that bad. Right. So we just got out of there. Did you have to pistol whip them or anything like that? I pistol whip people during certain robberies. I beat people up during certain robberies. I was like the muscle. Yeah. So I was the muscle. One of the muscle. One of the guy would be tying people up if there were people in the house. We had zip ties. And then the third guy would be going through everything to, to, you know, look for jewelry, cash, stuff like that. Right. And so you pistol with people get in, get them into submission. Your friend would tie them up.

Did you guys have gloves, masks? I wore, I wore, we all wore ski masks. I think we were wearing gloves. So like, it's kind of funny because these days, it's, you see all these kids like glorifying wearing ski masks. Like, we were really wearing ski masks in the early 90s doing this shit. You know what I mean? Like, we were really doing it. You were trying to really be like not get caught. Yeah, it was like a beanie. I would wear like a beanie that had holes in it. So I would just like wear it right here.

And then when we're ready to go and I just pull it down. Yeah. Yeah. So you guys weren't filming yourself? No. Okay. Definitely not. I know.

It's a different time now. Yeah. Wow. That's, it's wild to think in San Francisco, the small, tiny, dense city that you're running around. Like, you could rob somebody and then half a mile away is you're, house. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So then how, how did they trace it back to you in this last lick? Yeah. So, um, what happened was, you know, during the time, like I said, we were doing this like from June of 92 to like September of 92. So that whole summer, there's like, you know, basically three months.

We're doing this like every weekend, every two weeks, every Friday. Um, during the time, you know, you probably like July, August, I, um, had some jewelry and I was showing my sisters, like showing off. I got four sisters. And I was showing off to my sister and she's like, where did you get that from? And she's like, what are you doing? You know, she started asking me questions, right? So she got suspicious of me, my sister. So she told my dad that I think Mario's up to something.

He's doing something, you know? What they call you? Oh, okay. I thought you said Barrio. Oh, no, Mario. Yeah. So my dad was actually on probation at the time for domestic violence against my mom. So when my sister went to him to say like, I think he's involved in doing some illegal stuff,

my dad told his probation officer on me to keep an eye on me. And he didn't think I, I mean, I don't know, he didn't think I'd get arrested and get 10 years because that's what happened. But sure enough, that was the only lead the cops needed. And that's how they knew where I lived. Okay. And then so all these robberies that were going down all this time, obviously there's a certain MO, right? like maybe one Mexican guy, a couple Asian guys, if anybody caught a glimpse of our faces during those robberies.

So keep in mind, these are robberies happening every Friday, like clockwork. You know, obviously the cops have all that stuff on track, but they don't know exactly who these people are. And they got that one little crumb from my dad, like this Mexican kid, jewelry, let's look him up. And they just connected everything. And then the last robbery, the guy must have called the cops. Yeah.

And then they connected that and then sent them to your house. Yeah, literally they were waiting for me when I got home. And sure enough, when I got arrested, I had, like, addresses on me. I had a gun on me. And that's how they just connected everything. So it's really your father who gave them the drop. Yep. Wow.

Yeah, my dad. Has that been, did you have some healing to do? Did you have bitterness or anger towards him for a while when you first went to prison? Yeah, well, it's crazy. Me and my dad never really had the best relationship. Um, later years, like right when I went to prison, obviously during the whole time I was in prison, we didn't talk. Um, when I got out of prison, many years later, um, we actually talk right before he passed. So he passed away in 2009. We made up. He told me he loved me for the very first time ever. Wow. Yeah. He was like, you know, old school, tough love, Mexican dad. It's like, you probably, if you have any friends that like, you know, any Mexican friends, it's very traditional to get that tough love from your dad. Yeah. It's just how it is. Just how we're raised. Yeah. At least in those days, I'm not so sure much so much now. My Mexican friend, his dad tells him he loves him by buying him hookers.

Okay. That's the closest they get. Yeah. And I'm not joking. That sounds like a good time. I'm like, tell me you love me. I could use some love. Yeah.

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really separated the whole family. At that point out, my dad was not a part of, you know, he was not welcome around. My mom was just at home with my sisters. I had a little brother at the time. And so it was just a real fractured dynamic. I see. And he wasn't around after that. I see. Yeah. And he had no idea what was about to become of you. And the, the gang banging and the violent hell that is, was California prisons back in the 90s, it still is a hell. You know, we saw what happened to Torrey Lane's. Yeah. Okay, so you're 19.

19. So I got arrested September 4th, 1992. I'll never forget that day because my birthday is 11 days later. Okay. So I turned 20 in the county jail, 850 Bryant, San Francisco. And I fought my case in the county jail for about a year. And then keep in mind when I, growing up, I wasn't in. any street gangs.

You know, I grew up in San Francisco, so I know about everything. But where I grew up, that wasn't a part of my neighborhood. You know what I mean? And so when I was in jail, you know, now the whole northern, Northennial thing comes up. You know what I mean? And there weren't really any Sudannios in the county jail during that time. There were more like the Paisas that wanted to be gangbangers. But during those years in like the early 90s, there weren't like really any guys

from L.A. living in San Francisco starting gangs, you know what I mean? Was that a later phenomenon? That was a later thing, probably. And then even too with the like the MS-13 and like the 18th Street, that came in, came up down the road. Right. And there was definitely a time in San Francisco where they were like warring on the streets. But in my era, that wasn't really there. But when I got into the county jail, obviously it's a different game, right? You got, you know, the blacks, you got the whites, you got the, basically the North Daniels, you got the border brothers. and during that dynamic, you know, I'm a young Mexican kid. I gravitate to who I supposed to gravitate to because that's just how it is, you know,

even though that wasn't what I was doing on the street. So, you know, when I'm in the county jail, you know, during that year fighting my case, I definitely get in a bunch of fights with, quote, unquote, Sudanials, you know, rushing people, fighting people in the visiting room, beating up my celly. So I was kind of like, for me, I was young. I liked the fight already. I used to fight all the time on the streets. And I was just kind of like proven myself when I was in the county jail.

The older cats were like, yeah, that youngsters down. And, you know, when you're young like that, you're looking for that type of approval. And I was getting it. Yeah. Yeah. So you weren't really thinking about your case that much. You were just wilding there. Yeah, I was wilding out because I would go to court.

And then they'd waive time, you know, two, three months down the road, two, three months down the road. finally after about nine months that's when they started trying to plea bargain with us and during that time the first thing they offered us was like 25 years then a little while later they offered us like 15 years a little while after that they offered us like 12 years

and my attorney at that time was like they're gonna make you guys go to trial if you don't take one of these deals right and it doesn't sound like your codies were snitching yeah no we were all tight even though they kept us very separated Right. I was like, you know what?

I just want to get this out of the double digits. So, you know, can I get nine years? You know what I mean? That was like my goal. Can I get this under 10 years? Right. And then they were like, you know, we're going to offer you this last deal, 10 years, four months. If you don't take this deal, you're going to trial.

Yeah. And I already knew if I went to trial, we're going to get hung. You're like, there's no way we're going to beat this in a trial. Like, we're going to get, like, maxed out 30 plus years, you know? Yeah. So sure enough, I took that 10. year, four-month plea bargain. They gave me six years for a first-degree robbery and four years, four months for a firearm. And they ran everything else concurrently. And this is before the three

strikes law in California. Yeah. Yeah, this is before. So did you have the potential to get good time off of 10 years? Yeah, I had half time back in those days. Half time. Yeah, we had half time back in those days. Yeah. But I didn't get half time. Once I got into the system of CDC, I got into a lot more trouble the first couple years. So out of 10 years, four months, I should have done probably like five, five and a half years. I ended up doing almost eight years. Yeah, almost your whole stretch. Yeah, almost did the whole stretch. Yeah, that was, yeah, you get out a lot earlier back then, but you also, it's hard to stay out of trouble back then. Okay, so tell us, where did they, where do they shoot you first? Yeah, so I got sentenced. I remember all these dates. September 8th,

1993, I got sentenced. That was a really tough day. I just remember being in the courtroom and, like, they're like, I'm like saying I'm guilty on all these different charges, right? Like, it was like a laundry list of charges, right? Anyway, I got sentenced September 8th. I stayed in the county jail for about another two weeks until they had bedspaced at San Quentin.

So San Quentin was the Northern California reception center at that time. And so anybody in Northern California from like Fred's, has no up would go to San Quentin. Wow. Just to wait to see where they were going to get shot off to. Exactly. Wow. I had no idea. Yeah, so I went to San Quentin. I was in Carson section, which is the, anybody with 10 years and above, you go to Carson section. So I'm a young kid. I'm, you know, 21 now. And I'm in Carson section for only about a month. But there I started getting like some schooling because

obviously we're in prison now versus the county jail. And it's a whole different game. And I still remember that day the bus ride is San Quentin when I pulled up to San Quentin. You see San Quentin State Prison, right? And I'm like, it's kind of intimidating, you know? And you're like, all right, I hit the big leagues now. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so dive right into it. I was in there, I was there for about a month. I was in the, I was in San Quentin for about a month. I was hoping to stay local, like somewhere in Northern California. They're supposed to send you somewhere locally if there's housing, but there wasn't. So I got the word they were going to send me down to Centinella,

which is a brand new prison. So the brand new prisons that were opening up during those years all over the state, there is bed space everywhere, right? So Centinello is in Imperial County, which is like the Mexican border. Yeah. So I was going to go from San Quentin all the way down to Imperial County, which is like, that sucks. It's really far.

Yeah. And so that's where they sent me. So that bus ride from. Clinton down to Imperial County, it's about a 13-hour bus ride. And we're shackled down, you know, the belly chain, ankle chains. You're eating like this, you know, with your belly chain and your little, your handcuff like this the whole way for 13 hours. God forbid you got to take a piss.

Yeah, that's the whole thing. Like you have to, you have to like hobble to the back of the gray goose, they call it. Yeah. And take your dick out of like this jumpsuit with your belly chain and your hands that you can't move more than like an inch apart. Like what do you? It's, it's an inhumanity.

Yeah. By far, by far, like the most grueling bus ride I ever been on. Like, that was my first bus ride. And like, you're like,

you don't even want to eat because what if I got to go to the bathroom? You don't want to drink nothing. What if I got to go to the bathroom? And you're on a bus with a bunch of other dudes. You don't know who's who, right? Right.

And the way I was taught, you got to be alert. You got to know who's around you. You can't sleep on the bus. So you're just sitting there the whole way for 13 hours. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I think along the way we stopped it like to Hatchapie, drop some people off. that's where Torrey Lanes is at

and then stopped at like maybe some other places down south dropped a few other people off and then we finally pull up to Centinella and it's like maybe it's almost sunset right so it's like you know six o'clock on the yard

we're the first bus from San Quentin to go to Southern California so technically it's a Southern California prison and so like there's like 100 Sudanials on the yard and there's like 10 of us and so we walk on the yard and I'm from San Francisco right and you know you're you're looking around to see

if you see anybody right and I've seen some dude with like a SF on his on his stomach and then it said I noticed it's at SFV and I'm like oh he's not from San Francisco that's San Fernando Valley you know what I mean so then I started learning all this stuff right like okay I don't have any people down here you know what I mean so we go to Centinella and they put us like in a reception center so you got to wait in the reception center until you get cleared for the yard and then once you get cleared for the yard, the main yard, you can go out to the general pop. And so, um, but you're ready? Like, are you like ready for anything? I was. At that time, at that stage in my life, I was ready for anything. And like the, I had to selly, um, his name. He was from Sacramento. I remember

his name was Weddell, Weddell from Sacramento, older guy. And he's like, you know we got to get out of here. You know, you know what we got to do, right? And he's like, we got to get some pieces. And we go out to the yard. We got to rush some people. And that's how we're going to get out of here. meaning like that's how you're going to get shot off that yard because you're so surrounded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're just sitting ducks there. We would have just been sitting ducks. So had you ever seen a shank before? I had seen a shank up in San Quentin. Not so much in the county jail. The county jail was just a lot of fist fighting. But yeah. So we actually got some welding rods, some, you know, nice, nice pieces of steel.

And so we were barely there like a week. And the plan. was to get these welding rods. Some other homies gave them to us that they got them from their yard crew job. Some of the people were working on the yard crew and they got these pieces of steel. So there was like literally 10 of us on the yard and my cellie was like, you know what, this is what we're going to do. We're going to sharpen these knives. We're going to take these pieces.

We're going to go out to the yard. We're going to rush some people, creative melee. And that's how we're going to get out of here. That's what we're going to get shipped out of here because we don't want to be here. Otherwise, we're just going to be sitting ducks. Yeah. And then you guys might get shipped out. but in a bag or life's like that.

Yeah, exactly. So I was always taught to be the aggressor, never be a victim. That was, you know, instilled in me very young, you know, especially in jail. So it was like, we got to get off first. We're not going to wait around and become a victim. You know what I mean? So that was, that was the mindset. So what happened was me and Weddell were in the very first cell in this unit on the yard we're in. And it was just like a yard came in for this.

went out to the yard to check out the yard we just walked around the track the whole yard and um we seen that like it was it just looked bad you know there's just like all suanios they're all posted up they're staring at us they're telling some guys from northern california you guys can't take your shirts off because they have tattoos or whatever so you're not going to stay somewhere where they're trying to punk on you or you know disrespect you right at the time i didn't have any tattoos or anything anyway right but um there was that type of situation yeah you can't live in that environment like imagine imagine you say, oh, okay, I guess I won't take my shirt off. Yeah.

You might have to be in there 10 years. Every single day, the abuse is going to get worse. The bullying will get worse until you have to leave anyways. And you've just got jacked for all your stuff. You got beat up. Maybe you got shanked. Yeah. You can't live like that.

Yeah, definitely not. So the plan was to get these pieces, sharpen them up, come out to the yard, do our thing, right? So after yard, we went into the cell. and we're going to start working on these pieces. And then the next thing you know, all the water gets shut off in the building. And the COs rushed the building, and they're going to do cell searches.

So the water's off. We can't get rid of the pieces. So we try to hide them somewhere like in the cell. We were the first cell to get called out to search our cell. For us, for me, it was like a rookie mistake where they caught us with pieces. And then they're like, okay, where did you guys get these, from you guys are going to the hole. So we never even got an opportunity to get off,

but we still went to the hole because we got caught with pieces in our yard and excuse me in our cell. So I ended up going to the hole there for about three months. They gave me a DA referral so they can, you know, they can try to prosecute me and give me more time. The DA didn't pick it up. During that time while I was in the hole, you know, the yard started rocking a little bit, So a lot more people were coming into the hole. That's when I started getting the whole education on, like, all the Crip gangs, all the blood gangs, all the different Sudanian gangs. Like, it's literally an education. Yeah.

You know what I mean? You started learning about all these different hoods. Because I'm from San Francisco. I need to know this. You know what I mean? And you're meeting all these people. I met a lot of really cool crips and bloods, you know, during those years. And anyway, I was there for three months.

The DA didn't pick it up. They gave me my first shoe term. So they gave me a 10-month shoe term. And that's when they shipped me off to the Corcoran shoe. Okay. So you got a 10-month shoe term just for having a piece of steel. Just for having a piece of steel that it could have been an inmate manufactured weapon, but, you know, essentially contraband, but they gave me a 10-month shoe term for that.

Okay. So that's how you got off the yard. Yeah. It almost sounds better than having to staff. Yeah, I mean, looking back on it, you know, it's a rookie mistake. You know, some people might frown upon it, but that's what happened. I didn't know any better. And literally, we were like in the first cell.

So when that water went off, there is no way to get rid of it. You can't flush it. You can't flush it. You know what I mean? And when they open up a new facility, like they start, they're really hard on even the smallest things. Yeah. But, you know, once people start, body start dropping, you know, you get caught with a,

you get caught with a shank. They might just send you the hole for a week. Yeah. You know, it's all kind of the timing. Yeah, it was a brand, it was a brand new prison. That was Centinella. And then nearby, they opened up Calapatria right around the same time. And then years later,

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So what was the Corcoran, the shoe and Corcoran like? Yeah, so by this time, you know, I got gamed up a little bit already at Centinella, San Quentin. So I'm learning as I go along. And the ride from Centinella to Corcoran, Corcoran is right by Fresno County. It's Kings County. so it's like right below Fresno County and right above Tulare County so you're like right in the middle

and so Corcoran shoe I just remember on the bus ride there you hear all these stories about Corcoran right and like it's really bad you know it's rocking and roll in Gladiator School right and so there when we finally pulled up to Corcoran to the yard

you could see they start calling each guy off the bus right they'll call your name and there's like a bunch of CEOs waiting for us. They're like a welcoming committee. We would call it a welcoming committee. And there's like 50, 50 COs lined up. And as soon as you get off the bus, they would run you, run you with your belly chains and your ankle bracelets, run you off the bus, like snatch you up and like make you run. And so you're like tripping over your feet.

Yeah. They slam you against the wall to like check you and like, yeah, you're here now. Like this is how we do things here. You know what I mean? So one by one, I'm seeing every dude. get off the bus getting checked, ran down, tossed against the concrete wall. Dudes are hitting their faces on the wall. So by the time it was my turn, I'm like, all right, when I get out, I got to stick out

my chest and keep my head up so I don't slam into the wall, right? So they did me the same way, ran me down the wall, threw me up against the wall. I stuck out my chest to like break the slam. And then after that, they send you to a you. it. Wow. And that was like their welcoming committee. Just a reminder. Just like, this is how we do things here. Wow. You know what I mean? And so

they put me in a unit. I remember walking into the unit, like late. It was late at night and I was like 10 o'clock at night. You know, I forgot what month it was. Early, early 94. It was early 94. Like winter or not spring yet. So it was very foggy over there. And I just remember seeing this brand new prison and like just the fog. It just looked crazy. You know what I mean? So I go into the unit and they put me in my cell. I was in the cell by myself initially. And it's late at night. So people are like, there's people are already going to sleep. I think there's 10 cells on the bottom, 10 cells on the top, because this is the shoe now. And I'm standing at my door because like people are

like, hey, where are you from? You know, standing at the door, where are you from, homie? You know what I I mean? Asking me. And I would be like, I'm from up north. That's what I would say. And then it would just be like silence. And then, you know, they're like, all right, well, this dude, I was probably a Surenio. Now that he knows from up north, he has no conversation for it. You know what I mean? So I've seen that happen. And I'm like, okay, I know what time it is.

You know what I mean? So. And this is right in the middle of California. So it's kind of like right where the territory of the Sorreinos and the Norteinos begin. Yeah. So it's wild. Yeah. So Bakersfield is like the cut off.

Yeah. But, I mean, this is 1994. Corcoran shoes. and if you're familiar, and it's still online. If you Google Corkran's shoe, it was rocking and rolling during that time. People were getting killed. We're getting killed by the cops out there. They're shooting people on the yard fights.

They killed like six inmates during that time. Wow. Yeah. They're shooting them with the mini 14s. Yeah. So like if you're in a yard fight and you're not stopping or somebody getting booked hard, they'll shoot you if you don't go down. Yeah.

And then so that's what happened with Corkin. There was a whole FBI investigation with Corkran to shut it down. that never worked because back in those days, they're just letting them do whatever they wanted. Yeah, well, as soon as you get off the bus, they're brutalizing. Yeah, right out the gate to let you know what timing is. Do you remember cops beating people up and doing extra shit? Yeah, for sure.

So to kind of just backtrack, so the day that I got there, the very next morning is early in the morning. I guess they're letting people out for yard or they had different yards during those times. You would go out for a yard like a segregated yard. during that time they're segregating the yards because people were fighting a lot you know so they were trying different things

to like stop the fighting right and then I remember some guy ran up to my cell and he was like hey homie where you from you know hey so-and-so I'm from San Jose blah blah hey it's on so be ready like you let me know like if the door pops it's on you know what I mean so that was the word

that's my introduction you know my second day what does that mean when the door pops that means that the door pops and if there is an enemy on the, on the tier, you have to rush them. So So Soreño. Yeah, Sunaio or if it, in some cases, whites, if we have to rush the whites, because sometimes that's what happens. And back in those days, the blacks and the northerners were together and the Sudeanos and

the whites were together. Okay. So basically told me like, you know, hey, it's on. So be ready. So that's all I needed to know. And so I stayed in that unit for about a, for about a week. And then I had a past classification. and then they sent me to another unit.

So when I got to my other unit, my cellie at that time was another guy, Rabbit, Rabbit from Santa Rosa. And when I got to my other cell, when I walked into the cell, nobody was there. But I can tell somebody was living in there. So what I've been trained is that don't get comfortable. You don't know who cell you just walked into. Like, he might walk in and you guys are going to fight immediately.

So I walked in and I stayed in the cell. I don't know. I think he was like at the last. library or something, right? So he was out of the cell for about an hour. And so what I would do is I'm just, I'm just waiting in the cell posted up like, you know, I might have to fight as soon as this door opened. So I just got to be ready. That was our mindset, you know. And so when he finally came to the cell and I saw who he was and we talked, I'm like, okay, this dude's cool. You know what I mean? Older dude, cool. He's cool. And he's all, did they clear you for the integrated yard? And I said,

yeah, they cleared, they cleared me for the integrated yard. He's like, all right, we're going. yard tomorrow, we got to rush our neighbors as soon as we go out. So that was the plan. You know what I mean? And I'm like, okay, you know, that's just how it was. Your game. Yeah, that's, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it was, it was, so, so. So there's, there's, there's probably a, uh, a, uh, a norteno in the building that was like running the show. I mean, I was brand new, so I didn't know at the time. All I know is that if, if you're, if you're with, with the homies, it's just on and that's the way it is. You know what I mean?

So you were ready to take orders. Yeah, I was ready to go. I was a soldier. You know what I mean? You didn't question. I was young, ready to go. I already liked the fight. You know, I always worked out.

I kept in shape. So it was important, you know, like you go out there and you handle your business. Okay. So is that what happened? Yeah. So sure enough, the very next day, once again, we were in the very first cell in the top tier. So they open our door for yard. We go down to the pod door.

It was like a pod. And we strip search right there. They check us there. And then they open, they cuff us up behind our back, escort us out to the yard. When you go out to the yard, you got to stick your hands through the little tray. They'll uncuff you. And then you can go out to the yard. They strip search you before you go out to GPR.

Yeah, yeah. That is wild. Okay, so this is a shoe yard. This is a shoe yard. These are tiny yards. I see. These are tiny yards. Gotcha.

So you guys are already on double secret probation, so to speak. Yeah. These are all the cats that are in the shoe. Yeah. Everybody's in the shoe for violence, you know, assaults, stabbings, whatever. You know what I mean? So those are the kind of people that were in there at that time. And so you're with grown men.

Yeah. You're with murderers. Yeah. Wow. Are you excited? Are you? I didn't care. You know what I mean?

I was just, I was just down. You know what I mean? That's just the way it was, you know? That's a Mexican-ass shit if I've ever heard. It was, I mean, honestly, looking back, it was kind of fun, you know? Yeah. That's just the way it was. Or were you worried that like somebody might have got, I know it's, you got to get strip

searched, but you're worried somebody might have like a razor hidden anywhere? No, not really because it, I mean, you go out there and you just rush them and whatever happens, happens, you know what I mean? I mean, the fight's going to last maybe 10 or 15 seconds. You know what I mean? Then you got to get down. So you're basically being the aggressor because that's what your people are saying to do. Right.

And you follow orders. You execute the orders and then you're good. And you know the tear gas is going to hit you. Like, you know they're going to spray you. Like, are you ready for that mentally? I didn't care. You know what I mean? All right.

So what happened? So we were the first one out. And then they let out the second cell, which is two big white guys. So these are like two big white guys, right? Like both of them are like over six feet tall. And me and my cell are like five, nine, right? We're like littler guys, right? So the yard is probably 30 by like 50.

So it's not a big space. You know what I mean? It's a really small yard. These yards are only meant to hold like, you know, maybe 10, 20 people at a time, right? From each pod you would go out there. So we go way to the back wall and just post up because we know once we start fighting, the further we are in the back. If they start shooting the block guns first, it's not going to hurt us as much if they hit us with the block gun.

If we're like right under the gun and they just shoot at it. it's going to sting a lot more. What's the block gun? So the block gun, it's like a, it shoots wooden projectiles that are like 10 at a time. So like a high powered pellet gun, but they're blocks. So they're probably about that big. Right. And so they'll shoot that first.

And if you don't stop fighting, then they'll pull out the real gun. Wow. So you're not getting tear gas. You're getting. Yeah, we're getting hit with block guns first. Wow. Yeah. So sure enough.

As soon as these two guys come out, they see us in the back ready, right? They know what time it is. As soon as they come out, they kind of like meet us, like in the middle of the yard, and we just rushed them. And like, I mean, it's a quick fight. You know, you're throwing hands. And, you know, you're trying to, you know, get yours in. You know what I mean?

But, you know, within like 10 seconds, the gunners like, get down, get down, you know? And then we didn't get down. We were still fighting. They shot the block gun. And then I got hit, actually. I got hit right here. That was my very first time going out on a yard fight. It hit me on my side, side torso.

How does it feel getting hit? Stings like hell and it leaves a mark. Yeah, it leaves like a burn mark. Yeah. And Steens like hell left the scar for like 15 years. It went away, but I had a good scar right here for like 15 years. And so we're fighting. They shoot the block gun and they're like, get down, get on.

Then you could hear them pull out the real gun and they cock it. You know what I mean? and then at that point we jump on the ground face first you know what i mean just get down back up off each other and then um you know the yards down the COs will come in there cuff us up and take us out yeah but you got your stripes i got my first introduction to the yard did that get you favor with the shot callers yeah well they there's like this new kid he's from san francisco you know everywhere you go they check your paperwork right so before when i as soon as i pull up i have to give my paperwork so people know who I am, where I'm from, what my charges are to make sure that

there's nothing funny with my paperwork. And so that's when basically, yeah, I got my first stripes there. Wow. So where do they shoot you off? So I stayed with that SELD for a while. Me and him stayed with SELDys for a while. Usually when you get in a fight in a unit or in a pod, they would ship you to a different unit, you know, just to kind of mix it up. You know what I mean? So we were getting shot to different, different yards. And then the same thing would happen. We'd go to another yard. We would have to, you know, there's people out there.

We got a rush and we do it. Me and this guy, Rabbit, we did that about three or four times together. So they just keep you guys together. Yeah, they kept us together. And we were cool. Like, I knew he had my back, so I didn't need another cell. Like, he was already my cellie now. We're cool, you know.

Are you fighting different cars, different gangs? Sudaniels or whites. Okay. Yeah, we're fighting Sudan. Not blacks. Not blacks. So because the blacks would go out and fight the Sardagnos, the blacks would go out and fight the whites, too. Okay.

Interesting. So, yeah, the Sorreinos were, sounds like they were kind of aligned with the whites. Yeah. Okay. So the, yeah, definitely the allies, we called it allies, the blacks, the Crips, the Bloods, the 415s from the Bay. And then all the Nortennials were all allies on one side. And then, you know, all the Soudanios and then, you know, the different factions of the white, skinheads, Nazi lowriders, they were all on the other side. And do you think the Soreños are probably by far the largest population in California state prisons?

For sure. Yeah, definitely. I think the Sreños, obviously, it's the way they grow up in L.A. or Southern California, they're like, they're born into it. A lot of them. That's just the way it is. Like, they'll have generations of like my dad was a gangster. My uncle was a gangster. My grandfather was a gangster. And they're like really born into it. Wow. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah, definitely every prison that I ever went to by, far they had the most heads on the yard. Wow. Yeah, okay. All right, class, settled down. Today's lesson is on the Arco Rewards app. Try to stay with me.

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with $20 rewards dollars in your list. of the account at participating locations terms and conditions apply so uh you stay in the shoe but getting sent to different yards at corcoran so i was in the shoe um i was already i so i had a 10 month shoe term right i was already approaching the 10 month shoe term right i was like at my ninth ninth month so they're gonna let me out in about a month to go to the mainline again and um sure enough i had to go out and get in another fight and and my celly was like my celly was like if i might be able to go home and home in like six months, can you take this one? You know what I mean?

And looking back on it, it was probably dumb for me to do that. And sometimes I look back on it, like maybe taking advantage of the younger guy, because, you know, the younger guy is going to go do it. But we went out to the yard. I rushed, I rushed a Southerner, you know, got him pretty good. And they charged me with another great bodily injury. So I got another DA referral. So what happened?

You fucked them up? Yeah, I fucked them up pretty good. It was just fist fight, but I think I broke his nose. And so they call that a great bodily injury. And I got another DA referral. And the DA didn't pick it up, but they ended up giving me another 18-month shoe term. All right. So from that point on, they're like, you're going to Pelican Bay.

So, you know, I'm barely in the system, you know, at least the prison system. I got to the prison system September 93 already, you know, not even. a year later on being sent to Pelican Bay. Pelican Bay, the worst of the worst in the state of California. Just like where fools go to die, fools go to never get out in Pelican Bay. And they're shooting a kid there. That seems kind of like bad luck, right? Yeah, I mean, I think for me at the time, I actually thought it was cool.

For sure. Yeah, you know, and then like, you know, I'm writing my friend's home letters. I'm on my way to the bay. And they're like, you know, I was like, oh, Mario's in the Bay. It's a big deal to my homies back in San Francisco, you know what I mean? Right. But, you know, this is the way it was early 90s and it was like some serious shit. Tell us about Pelican Bay back in the early 90s.

So I get up to Pelican Bay probably early 94. So I was still like 21 years old. Get up to Pelican Bay, early 94. And that's another long bus ride from Corcoran. You're going from Central California. Now you're going to Oregon border. And not only you're at the Oregon border, but you're not even anywhere near I-5. You're all the way over on the coast.

Yeah. And you're surrounded by forests. There's no highway to get there. I used to drive past Crescent City where Pelican Bay is to go pick up weed back when I was trafficking weed from humble back up to Oregon. And it's remote as fuck. Yeah. You know, you feel like it's kind of like Alcatraz, but on land.

Yeah. You know, it's, it's, that's a brutal place to be because it's nowhere near anybody's family. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, dude, it's eerie. Yeah, it's a hell of a bus ride. And I remember just like, once you get past the bay, right, because you're going up to coast, like you said, you go past, like Mendocino or whatever. And then you're Eureka. I'm like, oh, this is what Eureka's like.

Like, it looked like a cool little town. And then you're like on this windy road and you're just going up to Crescent City, Del Norte County. I remember. And so yeah, you pull in a Pelican Bay. This is like early 94. And I just remember like when we, the bus pulls in, you feel like you're going into like a dungeon. You're like you're going underground. You know what I mean? Because I'm going to the shoe. You pull into the shoe. And there, you don't see nothing, right? Like there's, you know, ceilings. There's cages on the ceilings. And you feel like you're underground. You feel like you're in a dungeon. And it was back then when it first, you open like it was like this cool fortress you know pelican bay this is where we send the worst of the worst right they try to like glamorize it but yeah it was it was a it was a crazy looking place you know well they built it i think just to house shot callers and people that couldn't stay on main line in the rest of california yeah so that's where they sent like all the the top shot callers from all the main prison gangs and um and is it true that they that's where the orders are

given for the rest of the gangs in California? It was back then, and I think for a better part of like the last 20 years, it probably was. I know things have changed a lot over the last few years. But yeah, definitely when I got up into Pelican Bay, they put me in a pod. So my celly was an OG from Fresno, and he was still in North Daniel. He wasn't a bulldog. So some of the OG guys from Fresno, they were still North Daniels.

They weren't bulldogs. It was like the younger generation that was coming out with the bulldog stuff, right? So he was an older cat, and I was in a pod with a couple cats from the NF. So when I got there, I was in a pod with some heavy hitters. You know what I mean? That were like, you know, a step away from, you know, like giving orders for the whole organization. Wow. And these guys are doing life, a lot of lifers?

No, they're just, they're validated gang members. So they're not getting out of the shoe. Like, anytime they get out and come back, they go right back to the shoe because they're validated gang members. Right, right. Okay, okay. So, and what are they there for? You know, different assault, you know, different violence, things a lot. Always violence, it's a trip, right? Because I remember in the early 90s, when I was in jail coming up in those years,

everybody was in prison for violence, right? Like hardcore violence, murders, gang violence. And, you know, years later, it's like a different type of inmate or a convict. Like a lot of people were getting trouble for drugs now. you know what I mean or even drug using you know it's a different different dynamic over the last five to 10 years but in those early 90s like everybody had violence yeah yeah and I think a lot of those guys commit violence in prison to get to the shoe in Pelican Bay yeah it's like a place that you kind of rain from yeah so to speak okay so then what was your time there like it walk us through like what happened what's some crazy shit that happened so the Pelican Bay shoe actually not a lot of action there right because you're really really you're in a, you're in a small pod. I think there's maybe four or five cells in the bottom, four or five cells in the top. You're with your celly.

They only let, they let you go to yard every day. But the yard, this yard is even smaller now. This yard is like 15 by 30. It's just like a long, narrow space. And so you're only allowed to go to the yard with your celly. The walls are like maybe 20, 25 feet high. There's a cage on the roof. So you can look at the sky, but it's Crescent City, man.

It was raining up there all the time, cold weather. Like, to this day, I hate rain because I was up there for, like, you know, a few years and there's rain like seven months out a year. And I hate rain. Even though I'm from San Francisco, I hate the rain. And so we were, for me, like, the most important thing there that happened for me was making the connections with, like, the bigger homies getting school down. You know, they do, we do education. We have to, like, write reports and stuff like that. No way. Go into that.

Yeah. So you talk about this is with Nuestra Familia? Yeah. So the NF or the northern structure, a big, even in Corkrin, right, you do homework. Like, you educate yourself on the gang. You educate yourself on the past. You educate yourself on the future. And like, you literally, they want everybody to be, you know, as school down as possible. Right. You know what I mean? It's educated as possible. And so I remember doing like reports every week, you know, different things like that. And it's just really on the on the gang stuff. But it was always for the betterment of the of the gang.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Wow. And we did that religiously every week. Every week. Do you have contact with the other higher ups? No. It's everything so segregated.

Yeah. So I was, when, how do you get notes and messages and how do you communicate? fishing or going to the law library. So when you're in the shoe, you have like no movement. You can only go to the yard. You go to the shower like three days a week. They feed you in your cell. You're literally in your cell looking at a wall.

There's no T. Well, you could have a TV in your cell. They let you have a radio on and stuff like that. But you're just really there isolated with your cellie. You go to the yard with your celly. And then whoever's in your pod, that's who you see. And that's it. So they would encourage us to go to the law library every,

every week. That way you can at least just get out yourself, see people. You might see somebody at the Law Library and they're like, hey, what unit are you in? Or you're over there with this homie. Hey, give this to them or tell them I said, what's up. So that's how we pass messages to each other. But that was mainly at Gwendole Library. It was the only time you would really see anybody. And how do you yourself, are you still thinking, man, this is cool. I don't give a fuck. Or are you starting to feel like, I don't know, maybe this was, maybe I've made a horrible decisions in my life. Like, how are you feeling about things?

I mean, it was, I mean, the bottom line is I was in prison and I wasn't going anywhere anytime soon. So I was just rolling with the punches. Yeah. Keep in mind, I stayed sane by working out every day. I started getting into Zen Buddhism. My sister sent me like some books. I started learning how to meditate and stuff like that.

So I'm a 22-year-old kid learning out to meditate to like take my mind elsewhere because physically I was in a place that wasn't so good. But I started meditating and doing stuff like that to not only educate myself on Zen Buddhism and I studied that for a little while. But just to really take my mind elsewhere every single day. Yeah, it's remarkable that that deep into incarceration, physically deep and isolated, that those gang members could not only keep their. spirit up, not be broken, but, like, continue to, like, press against the authority. Yeah. Continue to find ways to, like, thwart the administration and to then from that little box, be able to send commands to kill people even all the way down to Sentinel if they wanted.

Yeah. Is that remarkable? Yeah. They definitely did that, you know, for, you know, to this day. Yeah. That's where all the heavy hitters were at, you know, from the main prison gangs, the NF, the Mexican mafia. Were there any riots on like the main yard or anything like that?

Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, I stayed in the, so in the Pelican Bay shoe, you really have no access to anybody. And up there is different than Corcoran. So there's actually, there is, I don't want to call it a peace treaty, but there was not a green light on anybody up there. So if they popped our door when we were in the shoe and there was like a white dude on the yard, or excuse me, a white dude on the tier or a Mexican dude on the tier, it was just to basically stand your ground. You weren't to rush anybody. You weren't to attack anybody. So that's how it was there because that's where the big dogs were at.

And that was the agreement they had in place where there wouldn't be any, any, you know, wars going on at that moment, you know. That can change in a day. That can change in a week. That could change in six months. But during that time, it wasn't like that. Right. So I stayed in the shoe for about until early 95. I remember I got to the shoe May 95, they let me go to the main line.

So I got to the main line and I think they had back then they had 4A and 4B. And I go once again to the reception side. I got to go through classification before they clear me for yard. And I think I was on 4B. I came out to the yard and, I mean, it was very different, right? Because I know up there I'm like surrounded by killers, you know what I mean? And like, you know, back then we had weights. They did.

We had weights back then, too. So there's the weight piles, right? There's the basketball courts. There's a handball courts. There's the different tables. And like every faction has their own piece of real estate on the yard. Right. You know what I mean?

Who is deepest up there? Sudannials. Still. Always. Always. Always. Always. And a lot of blacks, too.

But, you know, the blacks have different factions with the crypts and the bloods. Sometimes if a crypt gets into something, that's a crypt thing. then it's not gonna the bloods aren't gonna get involved or if the blood's get into something that's a blood thing the crips aren't going to get involved unless it's a full on race thing you know what I mean and that's different but I saw that happen a lot up there um but yeah um coming out to that yard 4b I was only there for maybe a couple weeks because they ended up moving me to 4a so when I moved to 4a and got settled in there this is like mid 95 now um that yard by far was the most violence ever seen in my life. I think like the first day on the yard, some dude got his throat cut. They airlifted him to the

hospital. And that's a real eye opener. That's my first day on the yard. It was a Sudenio taking out another Sudenio. But, you know, when they got to put the yard down and a helicopter asked to land on the yard to get this dude out of here before he dies, that's a real eye opener. Yeah. And then literally- You guys are all on the ground as the helicopter, the life flight. Yeah. The whole yard. The whole yard is down. The whole yard is down. So that's like hundreds of people because it's the main line now. Yeah. And so, yeah, that happened. And then the next day, something else would happen.

The next day, something else would happen. But it was mostly certain segments taking out their own people. It wasn't like any gang, mixed gang stuff that was going on. It always is with professional lifers and killers. It seems like they're always just taking out their own. Yeah. And what it is is that a lot of people would come out of the hole. A lot of people would come out of the shoe.

this guy did something wrong, that guy did something wrong. As soon as he comes out to Maidline, then they're getting whacked. That happened again and again and again. Yeah, so literally every single day, like almost something happened. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it was, like I said, a real eye-opener, just a lot of violence. A lot of violence.

People getting booked all the time. And so I'm in Pelican Bay now. We're talking about 96. I think 96, I remember one time. That's when Tupac got killed. So that was like a big thing on the yard. I used to have like Tupac's music. I was a big fan of Tupac.

I remember when he got killed. Right. And so like these are, these are big things that are happening in the real world, but we're, we're in cages, but we still, you know, keep track of stuff. You know what I mean? And I remember for me as a young man, when he got killed, that was like a big thing to me because he was my favorite artist. But just moving forward into like 97, that's when there's a video, there's videotape of

this stuff online. That's when a big riot jumped off between the Sudanios and the place. blacks and you see everybody just like in their raincoats right up there they used to give us raincoats like they would give us a full on yellow raincoat that would be like from up here all the way down to like your calves yeah get a little rain hat because it's raining like hell up there you know what I mean and um so you just see like this video um and it's it's still online circulating oh i've seen like the prison prison riot and they shot they shot at a bunch of inmates and people got shot because it was such a big riot.

Okay, so this was a race riot now. It was a race riot between the blacks and the Sudanials. Can you tell us what was behind that? I just think disrespect. You know what I mean? Like if somebody got disrespected and the Sudanials are pretty hardcore if they get the word from the back, but basically the shoe like, hey, we got to go take off on these guys, then that's what it was.

So that means somebody really didn't make things right because normally people get hit by their own in order to stop a race riot. Yeah. Right? It's to keep the peace this dude's getting booked because he disrespected a black, let's say. So it sounds like things really weren't, somebody got disrespected, somebody disrespected the Serenios and they didn't, their gang didn't make it right.

Yeah. And the thing is, though, too, like for me, at least during my time, any time I've seen any races or any factions go at it mixed, it was always going to be a melee or a riot. It wasn't like, oh, that was a one-on-one thing. Let's squash it. I never saw that happen. Back then, it was like if one of you disrespect one of us, it's all of us. You know what I mean?

And that's how it was back then. Were you part of that riot? No, because that was with the Sudannials and the blacks. That was with the Sudanials and the blacks. But it was like all the blacks. It wasn't just like the Crips in the blood. It was like all the blacks, all the Sudaniels. And was that the yard you were on?

Yeah, I was on that yard when that happened. Okay. So we were just getting out of the way. When you see everybody just running and, different directions and there's like the weight piles and the track and then there's a fight over here, fight over there, fight over there. It wasn't our beef. Yeah. So we just get out of the way. Did you know that was about to happen? No, we didn't know. We didn't know. If you go watch the video, that's probably the most famous filmed prison riot in the history of the world. Like it just,

and it's just, yeah, it's pouring rain and there's dudes in yellow raincoats and there's inmates It's everywhere. There's hundreds of people on the yard. And it just like it's like a spark. It's like an ember. And then the whole thing's up in flames. It's fascinating. Yeah. So when that happened, when that happened, they locked down all the blacks. Hang on that. Just walk us through how you were feeling. I mean, this is insane. Yeah. So the way we were running our program at the time, the Nortennios, we had like a couple tables. That was like our real estate. And so we would post up at our tables. Every time we come out for yard, that's where we posted up at. And we would have like maybe 10 or 20 guys, you know,

10 guys here, 10 guys there. We would try to keep people separate just in case something happened. You don't want to lose the whole team. You know what I mean? Did you guys have weapons or do you guys have like, lookouts? We had stuff hidden on the yard. You know, we would have people on the yard. I carried a razor blade in my mouth the whole time. Every time I went to the yard, I had razor blade in my mouth. Yeah, every single time. And then we would, we would be on the yard at our tables. And then we would have guys posted up at our tables, like to secure the table. Right. So we would literally be posted up

like this. So when people walk by, we're just posted up like making sure nobody's trying to rush us. And you guys rotate guard duty. Yeah. Very, very militant. And then we rotate. And then we'd also rotate to walk the track to just kind of monitor everything that's going on. You know what I mean? And, you know,

we had different type of security levels, half 60, full 60. Half 60 is like, be on alert. Full 60 is like, be very, very alert. Something's going to pop off. You know what I mean? And that day, Were you guys on full 60? Yeah, we're out of full 60 because people are walking around the yard and they're like, hey, we're hearing this might happen.

This might happen. Like, hey, we see these guys over here. I've seen this guy pull a piece out the ground. So we're on a full 60 and, you know, there's people walking the track. I was actually at the tables on one of the yards on the upper yard because there's an upper yard and a lower yard. And there's a fence that separates both yards, but there's a doorway so you can walk back and forth. I see.

And the tension, I mean, you must feel it, that energy that humans give off, right? Did you feel like, oh, it's thick right now? And you just got to really like keep your eyes open. Like for me, one of the things I was always preached to me from the very beginning is awareness to be aware of your surroundings, be to know who's around you. So you can see when people are doing something out of the ordinary on the yard. You see all the blacks go to one side or all the blacks congregating in one group. They don't normally do that.

They're getting ready. So the next thing you know, it was on the upper yard. It jumped off. And, what do you hear? I mean, you hear screaming or is it pretty quiet? No, because you hear the gun tower saying, get down. Because they started yelling at people to get down immediately because these are like fights going up everywhere. But, I mean, you have, you know, two, three maybe COs in the gun tower.

You maybe have about 10 COs on the yard. But you got hundreds of inmates on the yard. You know what I mean? So, you know, the C. start running from other facilities to come on to our yard they're trying to break up the fights us we just kind of get out of the way get on the ground it wasn't our beef but i mean this went on for probably like five or ten minutes yeah they didn't listen yeah and people were getting people were getting shot yeah one guy uh will play a video over it over the episode one guy gets shot in the head

yeah yeah i think he's coming out a guy with a weapon yeah and then you just see him just slump over yeah yeah wow did anybody get stabbed yeah yeah for sure sure a bunch of people got staffed you know like i don't know probably 10 20 guys got staffed you know like in in in those type of prisons and during those years everybody had a piece like there wasn't no fist fighting on these yards like you're you're you're breaking skin you're trying to hurt somebody you're trying to kill somebody you're hitting somebody in the neck you're hitting somebody in the face you're hitting somebody in the eye you know you're trying to really maim somebody yeah you got had a razor in your mouth so i imagine you weren't the only one yeah we and this is that was just the way it was there

that was the program. Every time we came out for the yard, we had at least a razor in our mouth. And the other homies, too. Yeah, all of us. Did you, did you have to train yourself how to put it in, how to spit it out without cutting yourself? I would put it in. So I had it, it would be, there would be a little plastic guard on it. And then we'd wrap it in the cellophane, the plastic. So it'd be like this big. And you would just put it like in the top of your mouth in the corner and just keep it there, the whole yard. And you'd work out like that. You'd walk the yard like that. You'd run like that. because a part of our program is that we would have to run the yard too. That was like part of our fitness.

Like every time you're on the yard, you got to run like two laps or four laps or whatever. So you'd have to run like that. You learn to work out like that. I mean, that's just how it was. Talk like that. Yeah. It's like having a dip in. It's like having a zen in your mouth.

Every single day. Wow. Every single day we'd walk around like that. And you knew how to spit it out. You knew how to, like, did you know, in a riot when somebody comes at you, how do you hit somebody with like a small razor? You just pull the plastic off really quick. And then you just try to slash them or hit them on the neck or something.

They're like one hit or quitters, right? You're really trying to just hit somebody good in the face one time, two times maybe, hit them in the neck maybe. Yeah. But it's, they're really, but it's a weapon. You're going to, you know, scar the hell out of somebody's face or their neck. Yep. And really, like, maimum. You know, I've seen guys get full zippers on their face, you know, with stuff like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Young guys, you know, like barely in their early 20s and they're already walking around with the, zip around their face. Wow. So after that riot, I mean, so after that right, after that right, they locked down all the blacks and all the Mexicans, uh, Sudeanos. And so it was just us, the North Daniels and the whites on the yard. And so we're going to the yard every day. We're still posting up in our same spots. The whites are in their own spots. And, um, pouring rain every day. Um, and then the word started happening that

the whites were going to try to rush us. So, Now it's going to be like a full on yard rocking and rolling, the blacks and the white, excuse me, the blacks and the northerners versus the Sudangles and the whites. Now, this is probably a silly question, but are there any non-affiliates on these kind of yards? There's a couple people that kind of, like from northerners, no. Like there's, if you're on that yard and you're a northerner, you're functioning. You know what I mean? That means you're functioning with the team, right? Right.

Whites, there's different factions, right? Yeah, the skinheads, Nazi low riders and just some other non-affiliers. white guys. But at the end of the day, this is turning into more like a race thing. Yeah. And so definitely, if somebody's getting down,

everybody's getting down. So you're required to get down, even if you're not like technically a skinhead. Yeah. And if you didn't, and if you don't, then somebody's going to get with you the next time they see you. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Wow. Yeah. So the stress levels, it's like, I remember sometimes going out to yard, many times. And it was like,

kind of felt like recess. You're like, wow, I really, I'm having such a good time playing basketball and, you know, talking shit. Yeah. It's kind of nice in here. Yeah. That never happens at, on Pelican Bay level four yards. But it was, it's a trip.

It's stress. It was tripped though because when I first came out to the yard, none of that stuff was happening. Like, there was no, no wars going. This happened like a year, year and a half into the yard. So it kept getting worse and worse and worse. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, we, like, I used to play flag football up there.

We used to play like flag football against different teams. We played soccer. We played basketball leagues, softball leagues. You know what I mean? But when it got bad, then it was on. You know what I mean? And that's what happened was. So at this stage, we're the only ones on the yard.

The whites are only ones on the yard. I was walking on the track the day I had like security. So I was walking around the track. And the next thing you see, you see all the whites rushing our tables. And it's like probably like 20 or 30 whites. There's like 20 of our homies at the table. and then they're going at it. At this time, I'm on the other side of the yard.

I start running across the yard through the grass. Like, it was like that movie with Mel Gibson where people are running across. Right of heart. Yeah, but people are like running to go after each other. And we're like running across the yard to go help our friends, help our homies. Are you guys outnumbered by the whites? Yeah, the whites even outnumbered us. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, we get over there and everyone's just going at it. People are fucking getting sliced. People are getting booked. Yeah, I took the razor out. I took the razor out. I was able to get down and hit a couple guys, but mostly fist fighting because, like I said, they're one-hitter quitters, right?

And- You got somebody across the face? Yeah, I got, not to get somebody across the face, but I hit some dude like on his neck, you know, and so, you know, this is a melee. So the cops can't see any one guy doing anything, right? Like, we're all going to get in trouble, you know what I mean? It's like a cartoon. Yeah.

Like, everybody just piling on each other. Yeah. So once again, the cops come. Nobody got shot. Nobody got shot. But it was a pretty good fight. Like, you know, I had homies that had zippers on their face after that. Did you get, you get touched? I never got any marks. No, no. No. And so after that happened, we all get down. And, you know, we all get cuffed up. We all get, you know, taken, you know, to the holding cells and so forth. So they're trying to figure out what's going to. on and I surprisingly a lot of us got to go back to ourselves they weren't like trying to send people to the hole right away so um after that happened they did put us back to our regular cells a lot of people went to the hole but I was lucky I they you know for whatever reason they just put me back in myself and I was like oh shit like I think I got away with this you know yeah yeah I think got away with this slice in the guy of his neck I think I got away with this one right

And I went back to my cell And after that, like everybody was on lockdown Like the whole facility was on lockdown And then the other yard Because we were on 4A at this time 4B jumped off So both both facilities were on lockdown All the factions were locked down

So we were on lockdown for like now Like a couple of months Well during those couple of months I actually got a transfer came in for me I'd put in for a transfer before all this stuff happened and during the lockdown, like a couple months later, they transferred me to New Folsom. So I was able to get out of there

when all the shit was happening. Wow. So it was like I skated out of there like under, you know what I mean? And did anybody get a DA recommendations from that fight? Yeah, a lot of people got DA referrals, you know, stuff like that. But like for me, like I kind of slid under it and I was able to even get a transfer to get out of that prison. Look at that.

So now we're talking about like, Um, 90, 97. Okay. 97 is when I left for New Folsom, but I want to bring something up that happened to me when I was a new, excuse me in Pelican Bay. Um, I had a, I was like 25 years old now because I'm, it's like 97, right? And I remember, I remember this. This is like, uh, something that happened to me where I remember looking in the mirror at myself. And I'm like, what are you doing? I had that moment where I'm like, what are you doing? Like, you weren't raised this way.

Like, because I was, we're. deep in it, you know what I mean? And I was, I was a Nortejo. I wasn't, um, uh, affiliated gang member, like a prison gang member. Like, there's levels to it, right? I was considered to be just like a Norteno soldier. Yeah. There is a structure, then there's an NF, right? Right. And those, like, they take bonds and do stuff to get into those. Right. Gangs. I was just considered like a soldier. You know what I mean? So there's, there's bonds and stuff that those guys learned and receive to become one of those guys. Um, and they call them Edmanos. And I wasn't, I was, you know, technically a soldier, but I was like a high ranking soldier because I had been around. I was always getting down.

And I was always in cells like a lot of my cellies were shot callers. So I was always around really good people. Like I, I like to say like I was trained by the best. You know what I mean? So anyway, I bring that up because, um, you know, I'm 25 now. I'm like, shit, I've already been down on like five years. Like I supposed to be getting. out right around now or maybe soon, but I wasn't. So I got that, I got that bus ride down a new Folsom. And I just remember like when you're leaving Crescent City and you're going back through Eureka and now I'm going down by Sack, I was like, man, I got, I'm lucky I got out of there. Because I could have, I could have hurt somebody up there. I could have got killed up there.

I could have got an indeterminate shoe up there. But somehow some way, I skated out of there. And I made it out and I went to New Folsom. after that. Wow. Not a lot of people can say that. No. Wow. So New Folsom, tell us what that was like. Yeah. So New Folsom was a trip because at this yard, the yard that I was on, there was about 50 North Daniels and there's only about 10 Soudanios. So for the first time, I was experienced a prison where we had the numbers. But those 10 Soudaniels were just like, I think they were like no good. They're like literally hiding from their people. You know what I mean? So we, they had a little area on the yard. They played like on the handball court. And, and we just let them stay there. We didn't like, you know, punk on them or like tell them you can't take your shirts off, stuff like that. But they stayed there.

But we knew those guys were like considered no good by their own people. Like dropouts? Yeah, they were like dropouts. So, you know, they weren't a threat to us. I see. They weren't a threat to us. So is there a difference culturally between southerners and northerners, like where they come from in Mexico or. Like, what is the difference?

Is there any? No, I mean, I think it's funny because they'll, the Sudeanos, they'll call the Norteño's farmers, Farmados. Right. Because a lot of these guys are from, like, you know, Salinas to Larry County, you know. Yeah, country bumpkins. Yeah, and they'll call them. But, I mean, I'm from the city.

So, you know, I would be like, no, I'm from San Francisco. You know, I'm not a farmer. Not that I have anything against it, but I'm from the city. I'm a tech bro. Yeah. No, not really. City sligger. Yeah.

So that was my thing, right? And so, but I just think, like, the culture to this day, like the Sudeanos and the Norteños, I just think they're really born into it more versus the northerners. You know what I mean? Don't get me wrong. There's, like, a lot of tough hoods up in Northern California, you know, all the way from the East Bay to San Jose, you know, Monterey County to Lerry County. But you think that's more of a reaction to the Surreanian?

rather than like an entrenched legacy gang banging culture? I think it is an entrenched gang bang culture. It's like the whole Northern California versus Southern California thing, whether it's the Rams versus the Niners, the Warriors versus the Lakers or or black or even the blacks. Like, you know, a lot of the blacks,

like the 415s from up in the bay, they didn't hang out with the Crips. You know, that was like if you're a Crip, that's a Cripp, then you're a 415. That's a 415 thing. So there's always been that rivalry. You know what I mean? Just depending on where you're from.

So New Folsom now, how much good time have you lost so far? So here's the thing by this time now, because when I was at Pelican Bay on the main line, for a large portion of my time, there's nothing going on. So every 90 days you're clean, you get a little time back. You get a little time back. You get a little time back, right? So I was getting a little bit of time back and I was watching my release date come down, come down, come down.

But, you know, when I got to New Fullson, Sure enough, because of that war that was happening up in Pelican Bay between the whites and the northerners, that carried over to New Folsom. Yeah. So there was a lot of whites on the yard. And so what happened was, you know, there is a few higher ups on the yard in New Folsom. And I think there is a snitch on the yard because a lot of the higher ups were getting rolled up off the yard. So somebody, because at New Folsom, it was a programming yard. and they wanted to keep it that way.

There's dudes probably getting visits every week, getting dope every week, living good, you know what I mean, for prison, for prison life, you know what I mean? When you say programming, explain for people what that means. There's no fights or no wars going on. Everybody, if you have a job, you go to job. If you're in school, you go to school. You're just, it's like, I don't want to call it easy time, but you're chilling. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're living.

Yeah. You're living when there's no wars going on. There's no disruptions to your program. So when I got the new Folsom, that's how it was. So for the Northerners to have like numbers up and like to have their own yard, that was like unheard of. You know what I mean? So when I got there right away, I got a job like in PIA laundry, which is like a good job. Like, you know, I'm getting fresh clothes and fresh sheets and I'm hooking everybody up and you're making 30 cents an hour.

But you're not really on the yard. You're off the yard because you're at work all day. Right. So when you're on the yard, that's when stuff happens. Sure. You know what I mean? If you're not working or whatever, that's when stuff can jump off. But sure enough, like I said, I think there's a snitch amongst our group because a lot of the higher

ups are getting rolled up off the yard. So kind of by process of elimination, I ended up with the keys on the yard. Wow. Yeah. I ended up with the keys on the yard. And when the- Who gives you that stripe? who gives you the keys?

They pass the word. When somebody gets rolled up, they'll pass the word like, you got the keys now. Can you decline? No, you can't. You can't. It's kind of like an honor,

but at the same time, whether you're ready or not, you better be ready. Right. Or you're getting booked. Yeah. Yeah, so, but this is where things got, this is where things got crazy.

Because right before the game in the Keys, that's when the whites rushed, the Northerners. and a fight happened. Excuse me, let me take that back. It was a one-on-one thing initially, a white guy, and I remember the Puerto Rican, excuse me, Puerto Rican dude from San Francisco, they got in a one-on-one fight,

but it was pretty bad. So the dude who was running the yard before me, he got rolled up. So now it was really my call. Are we going to go to war with the whites, or are we going to just call that a one-off? me, I said, when we come off lockdown, we got to rush them. That was my call.

So they let out. I didn't even let there. So it was like a controlled lockdown where they let out one block at a time. They don't just let out the whole yard, right? They would let out one block at a time to see what would happen. And they let out the block and the northerners rushed the whites. Some bloods from Sacramento helped the North Daniels too because. they were outnumbered. And so now it's on, just like up at Pelican Bay. Now it's kind of the whites

and the northerers are going at it. So literally, they put us on lockdown again. Were you a part of that? I wasn't a part of it because I wasn't on the yard. But I gave that call. So now you're shot calling. You're sending soldiers to go do the dirty work. Yeah. That's a better place to be. Yeah. But not so much because the next thing, you know, a week later, they opened them my door and they're like, roll it up. You're off the yard. like somebody sensed on me to told who who I was. And so at that point, when they're rolling me off the yard, they put you, they like take you off the yard. They put you in these holding cells.

And at that point, I'm thinking in my head like, all right, I've already been down like five going on six years. Like, if I go back to the hole right now, I'm either going to get like an indeterminate shoe. I'm going to get maxed out or if the homies in the back didn't agree with my call, they're going to hit me. So that's what I was thinking. So at that decision,

I'm like, you know, I think I'm going to tap out here. And at that point, I tapped out and I went in the other direction. Okay, so you dropped out. I laid down, I laid down my sword. But I wouldn't call it drop out because to me,

that to me, very, very strong word if you're actually clicked up in the gang. I was never clicked up in a gang. I wasn't in a street gang. I wasn't technically clicked up in a prison gang. To me, I made another choice. And that was to basically go in another direction

because I wanted to get out. Okay, but what do you have to do? You have to go to the administration? Yeah, you go to the administration and I remember I told one of the CEOs like, I'm done. I'm done. Like I'm, I don't want to, I don't want to be active. I don't want to be active anymore.

That's what I told them. So then they, they take you to a whole other, obviously, unit and pod. And they call that the dropout yard. Whatever. And that's who you're going to be around. Okay. And that was the choice I made. Okay.

I didn't get hit. Nobody told me, you know, you got to go do something that I turned down. At that time, when I knew somebody snitched on me to roll me off the yard, I made that choice that you know what, I'm done. And that's, and the main reason I made that decision was like, I wasn't trying to get maxed out and get out in 2002. I was trying to go home. Yeah.

And that's the decision I made. And that's something I had to live with. For sure. Was it at all difficult? Did you have any regrets? I think for like the first few weeks, you're like depressed because you feel like you let somebody down. Yeah.

You know, and I think it's a big shot to your ego. Yeah. Like, because you're, you're over here. you're considered good and now you're considered no good. Right. You know, so that's a big thing to your ego, especially to a young guy that is, you know, pretty full of himself at that time. And that was something that I had to live with.

The worst part, it seems like, is having to go to that yard with like sex offenders and, and I mean, yeah, basically that. I don't hate being around those people. Yeah. But the thing is, it's not like you go looking for those people. You know what I mean? And once you go that way, at least for me, when, when, you know, I went to the hole, they kind of run you through a program for a couple months to keep an eye on you to see if you're

going to like, if you're going to go in there and just maybe go attack somebody, you're like a sleeper. Right. So they keep an eye on you for a couple of months. They don't just shoot you to the other yard, right? They put you in another. Well, now the dropout yards have become so wild because everybody's dropping out. So now they become like the main yards. Yeah.

That's what I've heard. That's what I'm told, you know. It's very different now from what I hear as well. Back then, there weren't no S&Y gangs back then. It wasn't like that. If you went to those type of yards, you were there to do your time and get out. Right. I think the whole S&Y stuff, those came out many years later and they're very active now,

but that wasn't even around back in those days. So how much time when you go to the other yard, what do you look at like another two years? It was like 97 now. I still, late 97, I'm getting time back. I still haven't got another write-up, another 115. So I'm still clean now for all this time. So funny story, when I was in the hole on the S&Y side, Eric Menendez was in there. I played handball with Eric Menendez.

No way. Yeah, so this is like late 97. And so he was in the hole for like contraband or something. Oh, really? And, you know, but he was a really quiet dude. He just kept to himself. They must have been like celebrities in California. They still are.

Yeah, when I saw him, it was a trip. And then, you know, we were all on the little yard together. And they didn't want to see us program with each other, right? So to me, he was just like a normal dude, you know, even though I knew who he was. Yeah. And, you know, I played handball with them and stuff like that. And they would send guys like that, really high profile guys to these dropout yards. Yeah.

Even when I was in Corcoran going backwards, one time when I was in the Corcoran, and shoe leaving a visit. Charles Manson was in the PHU at the time. He was going to a visit. I was leaving a visit. And I walked right by Charles Manson when I was there in 94. He was just a little old man. He's like five feet tall. Piece of history right there. So I've seen some and then even going back to the county jail, the night stalker, Richard Ramirez in San Francisco. He was there when I was there. Wow. So I seen all these guys when I was during my time. Right. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. That's crazy. So you're on the SMY yard. and then you just finish out your sentence?

Yeah, so no. So a new Folsom, I come out to the, to the, you know, to the, basically the S&Y yard. And there, it's like a whole new world because now I'm not going to go hang out with the group of guys. I'm not going to go hang out with my group. It's, I'm doing my own thing now. So all I would do really was go out to the yard. I'd go work out. I'd go run.

I'd stay away from everybody. I wasn't hanging out with anybody. I wasn't trying to get to know anybody. At this point, I'm just trying to do my time and get out. You know what I mean? So I stayed at New Folsom for about another six months. And then I'd put in another transfer because I'm still being clean. Then they sent me to Mule Creek, which is in I own California,

kind of like by the outskirts of Modesto out in that area. And so when I went to Mule Creek, that's when I went there and that place was a trip because it was just like a country club. It was just like super easy time. And there I worked and I worked and I was off the yard. When I was on the yard, I'd just be working out, running. That's it. That's all I did, work out, run.

Anybody that did time with me can never say that I was a punk. They ever seen me get beat up. They ever seen me get booked. Like I did my thing my way after I left the active side. And I finished out my time. at Meule Creek. And finally, March 25, 2000, after about seven years, seven months, I got out. And you had a plan to, you know, really like get after it as soon as you got out, right? Tell us about that. So, I mean, the thing is, too, is like I had a little brother, you know, that was

another thing. Like, it was like an incentive for me to, like, go home. When I left, when I got arrested, my little brother was like 10. Now he was 18. And I feel, to this day, I feel bad about not being around to like help him when he was growing up and he got into some stuff too in his mid-teens as well doing drugs and doing stuff that he shouldn't have been doing I wasn't around for any of that so I feel responsible for some of that stuff also a lot of trauma that I caused my own family my mom my sisters you know what I mean um to this day I feel bad about that stuff you know but anyway um New Year's Eve 1999 um I sat at my desk in my cell and I literally met mapped out a plan. I literally wrote down a plan. You know, I need to get a job. I need to make this

kind of money. I need to like get a place to live. I need to get a car. Like I mapped out a game plan for me. And that was the whole Y2K 2000. Like everything was supposed to go wacky when January 1, 2000 was supposed to have nothing happened. But that's, that's how it was back then. I don't know if you remember that. Of course. Yeah. So, um, I wrote down this plan. I knew I was getting out in like three months. So when I got out March 25th, 2000, I was off and running. I mean, like the first week or two when I got out, I was just getting used to being out again. I was still getting up super early in the morning, going running. Like, I remember running into some friends in my neighborhood that I hadn't seen for like 10 years. How'd San Francisco change? That's funny because right when I got out,

like after a week, that's when they opened up the new ballpark in San Francisco, the giant stadium. No more candlestick. Yeah. My sister and my brother took me to a game. And my first introduction of how things changed was I go to use a water fountain to like wash my hands, but I don't see like a knob to turn on the phone. Excuse me, turn on the water.

It's censored. They didn't have that. I mean, something as simple as that just like to like put your hands to wash your hands. I didn't even know how to do that. I didn't have an email. I didn't even know what an email was. like all these little things like I had to learn, you know. So yeah, it was it was like culture shock for sure.

The city had changed a lot. Downtown the Embarcatoro changed a lot. I remember we were driving across the Bay Bridge. And I saw the city for the first time in like almost eight years. I like shed a tear like, damn, I'm home. Right. You know what I mean? So yeah, that was that was cool.

My sisters drove me around to the ballpark, showed me the neighborhood. And then they had a big party for me when I went back to my mom's house. But I was 27 years old. I had nothing. I had no education or, I mean, a high school education. And I had no job skills. I didn't know what I was going to do, but I know how to do something. So that's when I got like my first little job handing out flyers at Union Square.

You know those dudes that like stand on the corner. Oh, miserable. Yeah, like hand out flyers to people and you walk by them, you're like, get away from me. That was me. That was my very first job. That was my very first job. And I did that for like half a day. Yeah.

And I hated it. And I'm like, I can't do this, right? So then my sister helped me put together a resume. I'm looking in the newspaper for jobs because back then there wasn't like, you know, you can go online and look for jobs. I'm looking like in the newspaper for job opportunities, right? And then I got a job actually at a modeling and acting talent school in San Francisco. It was called John Robert Powers. And there I was literally in the back room with the phone and the yellow pages,

co-calling people. And that was like my first introduction to sales. Like really sales 101, picking up the phone and making phone calls. So I did that okay. they promoted me to be like what they call like a booking agent and now like I'm around all these models and I'm having a good time for me

it was cool because I just got out of prison and I was around all these pretty girls it was like a fun time for me right you know what do you try to do on the phone you're you're booking appointments for these up and coming talent to come in so they could sell you a class I see yeah so they could sell you a class and like pitch you this whole magnificent idea

you have this you have the look you know Johnny you got the look I think we're going to turn you into a runway model this is how we're going to do it. You're going to take these classes. And six months, you're going to be a runway model. I see. So that's what they were selling.

That's what we were pitching, you know? And so I did that for like six months and kind of learned the ropes. At this job, I wore like a suit now. I was wearing like a suit now. I was feeling better about myself. Nobody knew about your background. Nobody knew about my background. And here's a funny thing.

The way I started to learn how to navigate about my background was, if you looked at a job application in those days, they would say, do you have any felonies in the last three to five years? I didn't have any felonies in the last three. I had felonies eight years ago. That's right. So it was a loophole. That's right.

I was in prison three to five years ago, but I haven't been convicted in eight years. Exactly. So that was my loophole to start getting jobs. And so after that, I started working at 24-hour fitness. And I got a job at 24-hour fitness. This is when 24-hour fitness was like brand new. and it was like the cool gym to go to, right? And I was a sales counselor there.

And I was selling, you know, gym memberships, selling nutrition, selling training. And, you know, I knew about all this stuff because for the last eight years, that's all I did was workout. Yeah. You know what I mean? So once I was at 24-hour fitness once again for like six to eight months. And I was around a lot of good people there. A lot of the salespeople there because it's like a quick sale. Like you're closing people every day, right?

It's like a quick sale five to ten minutes spill, boom, next. And that's when I started like really sharpening my sales skills, you know. And so I stayed at 24-hour fitness, you know, about six months into it. Some guy was like, hey, you're a pretty good salesman. Like I was pitching him really hard on training and why you need training. And this is the type of nutrition you need. I can tell you talk well. Yeah.

Like you're, you know, you've got that instrument. Thank you. Thank you. And so I'm drilling this guy on training. and he told me, hey, you're a pretty good salesman. Have you thought about doing anything else? No. I'm going to be here forever.

No, I want to live in the gym. I want to live in the gym. And he gave me his business card. And it was for a place called household finance. And household finance, I didn't even know what it was. I just knew it was like a finance company. You know, I don't know anything about finance. I don't have a background in finance.

But I called. I called and, you know, hey, this guy referred me. And sure enough, I went through a couple of interviews. And the next thing, you know, I'm getting hired at household finance in Daily City as an account executive's. And I'm selling personal loans, home equity lines of credit, and first and second mortgages. And, you know, they put you through like a training thing. As a matter of fact, they sent me to Oregon for training. I was for like a little training.

They training for the weekend and then like the introduction to the company. And the fact that you didn't have anything past a high school education didn't matter. That's important for people to remember. Like if you have the drive, there's sales is a good way to to be able to make a lot of money, you know, without really having any education besides just just being willing to learn and being motivated. That's the big one. And a lot of these sales organizations, they want to kind of mold you anyway. So they actually prefer that like if you're sharp, you speak well, they actually prefer that you don't have. have any bad habits or other outside skills because they're going to mold you to be the company guy.

You know what I mean? Right. So that's what I was. I was like very green, but you have some good sales instincts. You can talk. You're hungry. We're going to turn you into what we want to turn you into. So I worked at household finance for about a year, selling first and second mortgages, HELOCs. But for me, like, every year, I'm trying to move up. You know, I'm trying to like make more money. I was ambitious. You know what I mean? I'm trying to move along in life and make more money. And so I think at HFC, I was, I made like, I mean, this is 2001, 2002. I made like 50 grand that year, which is like a fortune for a guy coming from making 30 cents. 30 cents an hour. And I was on parole the whole time. Wow. I was on parole the whole time. Wow. So when I left

HFC to another company called Town and Country Credit, Town and Country Credit, Town and Country Credit, It was a big deal because they were a subsidiary of AmeriQuest mortgage, which was a very big subprime mortgage lender during that time. So I go to town and country credit TNC, and here I am in this huge office, glass right on the water in the bay, South San Francisco. I'm wearing a suit. I'm feeling good about myself. I get promoted to be the branch manager within like three months.

and now I'm like managing a team of like 20 loan officers. I have processors. I'm making even more money now. I buy my first Mercedes. And I'm still on parole right now. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I'm rolling.

I'm starting to roll. Yeah. I'm feeling really good about myself. And my parole agent seen my car. He's like, how'd you get that car? I'm working. What do you do for work? I'm working here at this place.

I do loans. Like, you're not supposed to be working in a place like that with your background. like you, you, you, you went to prison for robbery and having people's personal information, social security numbers. You're not, you're not supposed to work in a place like that. I'm going to give you 30 days to resign or tell your manager about your background. Wow, what a piece of shit, huh? So they wanted me to tell on myself.

And, you know, it was a really hard decision for me because I was just building my career. Yeah. I'm just building my career. and so I'm like, I'm not going to tell on myself, I'm just going to have to resign and I'll figure it out. So I literally, the district manager, I'll never forget her name, Kisla, Kisla Kobar, because she gave me an opportunity. She saw something in me. She gave me that opportunity to be a branch manager, you know. And I'll never forget her name.

And, you know, I had to go face her and tell her, like, you know, really thank you for the opportunity, but I need to resign. She probably looked at me like a piece of shit, like you're, you're weak. Yeah. But she didn't know what I was dealing with. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I resigned there. How long did you have parole for?

Three years. Three years. Yeah. So I was on state parole for three years. I was on what's called high control parole because of my, my background, my case, violence. So back then they give you like high control parole. Yeah. And so I was on, you know, I lost the job.

And now I'm like, you know, depressed again. Like, what am I going to do? Everything I'm doing, I'm trying to do the right thing, but my background comes up. You know, so I tell people like the best advice I can give somebody who's out of prison or has a criminal record that's looking for a job is to lie. And lie vigorously. Lie really with all of your heart. Don't tell these motherfuckers. They don't need to know that shit.

Yeah. Let them find it out. It's just like when the cops want to search. your place and you know they're going to be able to get a warrant and you could just let open the door for them make them get the warrant yeah always just say no that is that's what i think yeah because if it's important enough where they're going to do a background check anyways they're going to do a background check and if you're not going to get the job because you're you have a felony you might as well get not have the job because you lied about it right you know that's how i see yeah so i mean

i and that's what i did but i couldn't lie to my parole agent you know what i mean of course yeah yeah yeah so at that point, once again, I lost a job when I was doing really good. And one of my contacts that I had met when I was working at HFC, she introduced me to a mortgage broker. And the mortgage broker, she was running like her own business out of South San Francisco. This is a whole different setting. It wasn't a bank. I'm going to go work for a broker now. And she gave me a shot. I was upfront and honest with her because she was from the hood. kind of. And she had brothers that had been in trouble before. So she was like, it's cool. Like, you know, thank you for telling me about your background. But, you know, she, she knew what was up. She was like one of these girls that, like, maybe grew up in the hood, but did really well for herself. Right. Okay. So, um, and, you know, she was one of my first real mentors in the mortgage world. And so I worked for her in the mortgage office, the broker office, just really learning about what brokers do and like working with all these different banks. Yeah. And we would have all these different bank reps. And,

coming to the office all the time. You know, Washington Mutual was big back then. World Savings was another bank back in those days. Like, these are all big banks back then, right? And what you're doing is you're the middleman between the person who's seeking a home loan and the bank who's possibly giving them the home loan. Exactly.

We're shopping for the client the best deal. That's right. So I didn't have a license or anything like that, but I'm learning the ropes. And also while I'm learning the ropes, I'm seeing all these mortgage, all these bank reps come in, and I'm like, I think I could be a bank rep. Like, it seems like they have a cool job. They just go around and pick up loans all the time.

Yeah. You know what I mean? So I'm like, I think I want to do that. So sure enough, after I worked for the broker for about a year, now it's around 2003, there is a wholesale mortgage bank in the East Bay called Oakmont Mortgage. And I was looking now, you know, online, looking for jobs. I sent in my resume, and I sent my resume to this place like three times over like 30 days. And they called me for interview.

I went in, got the job at the mortgage bank, and the next thing you know, now I'm going to the broker to pick up their loans. I'm taking them back to my bank. We're funding these deals. And like a couple months later, now I'm making like 10 grand a month. So now it's like 2003. I went from making like 50 grand in 2003 or so to making like 250 grand in 2004. Wow.

And then... And you're off paper? And I'm off parole now. I'm off parole now. And so I started making a lot of money. So I'm 2004. I made like 250, 2005. I made 800 K.

2006. I made over 600. And this is just, we're just, everybody is feasting at this time off easy money, off the easiest loans in American history that have led to the now debt crisis that we're coming into. But it was good for guys like you selling predatory loans. And we didn't need. Oh, you work at McDonald's? Yeah.

Dude, we'll give you a $1.5 million loan. You're good for it. Back then, back then. But here's the thing. I worked at the bank. My brokers. I'm not mad at you. I would have done the same shit.

But see, like the way I look at. at it the bank we had the products the brokers were the ones making up paperwork for their clients that was a landscaper right or owned a furniture company right or whatever right but um you know I was doing like 20 million a month in my in loans in like my best days I was being like 100 grand a month just four years after getting out of the fucking hardest prison system in the United States yeah so I was I was already like 2005 I had bought a house now in the East Bay I had all these little toys. I was doing really good. Do the homies in prison, you keep in contact with them at all? Not really. I mean, there's a couple, actually, there's a couple homies that I'm still in touch with

that they're up like in Northern California that I'm still in touch with that. I made good friends with, you know, we've been friends now for over 20 years, 30 years now. But yeah, a couple guys. Okay, but you pretty much, you know, put it in your past. So you thought, yeah, for sure. So this, now I'm wearing a suit and tie every day. You know, I'm wearing a suit and tie every day. You know, I'm driving banses and I have houses and I'm doing my thing now. You know, I left the gangster world far behind me. Right. You know what I mean?

And so. And then you met cocaine. How many stories. Always begin the end of the second act with and then he met and then Ray Leota met cocaine. Yeah. So sure. Sure enough, what comes along with making a lot of money, the party lifestyle. Um, you know, womanizing, having all kinds of women, hanging out with the homies at the strip club.

Right. Um, going to Vegas, going to Mexico, going to Hawaii. Just having a good time. Yeah. And yeah, definitely around 2005, six, seven, I start having a little problem. Mm. And that's all me. Had you ever done drugs before?

No, really, not no Coke, not Coke, you know. And, and, um, it was really the party lifestyle. It's not like I woke up every single. well, Dan, I'm doing bumps or doing lines. It's like, but on the, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, it was on. Yeah, and drinking. But when you do that long enough, mentally, emotionally, financially, it takes its toll. You know what I mean?

And physically. Yeah. It takes its toll on you. You know what I mean. You're probably drinking a lot. Dr. Dr.ing a lot. Yeah.

Really, really, really bad. I'm getting DUIs. Like, you know, like, I'm kind of going backwards a little bit. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I ended up going to jail down the road again later. with the DUI, but, you know, 2007, that's when everything collapsed. So I went from making like, you know, 50 to 100 grand a month to not having a job.

Wow. And I have all this overhead. And- Did you save any of that money? Not really. I was just partying. You know, I thought it was never going to end, like my own, my own ignorance. You know, I just thought this was going to be my lifestyle forever, you know.

So 2007, everything starts falling apart. and losing a lot of money. I'm going to lose my house. I'm going to lose my cars. And I'm, you know, feeling worse about myself, like my confidence, spiritually, mentally. Like, I'm not in a good place. You know what I mean? And so I stopped using drugs around 2009.

I stopped. But by that time, I had already lost everything. So I'm like couch, search. at my mom's house. And here we are back at square one. How am I going to get myself out of this? So I was able to pick myself up pretty good. I ended up working for a startup in San Francisco called trulia.com.

And they were acquired by Zillow years later. And then I also worked at Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. So I was actually working at Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. So between 2009, 2012, I was working at the bank again. I was working at Trulia. I was making okay money, but, you know, making $100,000 is nothing compared to making $500,000. No. So for me, I was always like chasing that carrot again. Yeah. Like, how can I make this kind of money again? You wanted to hit a lick. Yeah. Like, that seems to be the common thread amongst us. I put myself in that category. Like, you're always looking for, like,

the big pop, the big opportunity. Like, first it was the home invasions. Then I'm hitting a lick with this mortgage boom that's happening in America. I was the same way with the weed and the podcasting, you know, like I hit a lick. Instead of just like sustainable, you know, base hits versus home runs. And I think that is something, there is that natural thing with criminals or entrepreneurs. Like there could be a, there's a fine line. Right. So that's, yeah, I get it.

You wanted, you wanted the big, the next big score. Yeah, I was looking for my next grand slam, right? So, and I wasn't finding it. And so, you know, once again, you know, I'm making okay money. But, you know, once you get used to that lifestyle of, like, doing whatever you want, spending all kinds of money, buying whatever you want, whenever you want, taking trips, it's kind of hard to let that go. Sure. You know, so as time went on, you know, I reverted back around 2013, 2014. I'm partying again.

Coke? Doing Coke again. And then this is when I came up with this amazing idea that, you know what? I think I'm a rob a bank. Well, yeah, that's a new one. Haven't heard that. So. So, I'm a bank in 2013.

I mean, how much Coke were you on that you thought that was a big light bulb payday moment? You know, and I was just looking for quick cash. You know what I mean? I was looking for quick cash. Well, that sounds like a junkie move, though. Like, because you know, unless you're going in there, like, heat, like with Robert De Niro and Bal Kilmer, you're only going to get, as you say, 10 grand or something with a note. Like, that's, that almost sounds like, oh, I'm down on my habit. I just need some, like, money that's going to last me a month.

And that's the thing. I was really just looking and get by for a few months so I can go find another job. Like, I really had this mindset, like, I was going to just go back to a normal life after I do this. And that's just how effed up my mentality was at that time. You couldn't have turned to your family? Not really. I mean, I was, you know, I had so many ups and downs during the last few years that that was the choice I made in my head. This is what I was going to go do.

So sure enough, I start casing out some banks in my neighborhood. There was a Bank of the West. I remember Bank of the West. I remember Bank of the West. Like Geary and Stanion. in San Francisco. And I would always go by, I would always drive by this bank, right? Like 445.

Like it'd always be empty. And so I'm like, all right, if I go in there at like $450 right before they lock up, no one's going to be in there. I could be in and out. And at a side door too. So I'd go park my car down the block. When I run out of the bank, I could do a U-turn, go out this way and get out of the area. Like I had everything mapped down.

And you were like, I'm going in there, no weapon. No weapon, yeah. No weapon. I'm going to walk in there with like my hands in my pocket, hat on, coat up. So like you're going to see me like here, you know. Yeah. And with the note. So I go in there and it's like a Tuesday.

As a matter of fact, it was Black Friday 2014. So, you know, everyone's out shopping. It's Black Friday. It's right after Thanksgiving. I picked that day for a reason. And went into the bank. There was like some mail teller there by himself. And I went in there like this.

I gave him the note. And I'm like, the note said, hey, give me all the money. And he's like in scramble mode, like getting all the cash. He's scared as hell. Did you know about the die packs? Like, did you? I didn't see any of that. Okay.

I didn't. Thankfully, that didn't happen to me. But yeah, I didn't know about that. You were aware to look for. Yeah, so he's in scramble mode. He's grabbing, you know, cash, putting it in a bag for me. I'm like, hurry up, you know, and I'm in there for like maybe 30 seconds. So he gives me the money. I go out the side door, run down the block, jump in my car, do a U-turn, get out of the area. Where do you go? I just drive to like another neighborhood. Actually, I drove to Golden Gate Park. They have underground garage there. So I drove underground and made sure nobody was around me. You know, what I mean. And by that time, I take off all my clothes. I threw away my hat, threw away my coat. You know, I didn't look the same. And there I sat in my car for about an hour just to make sure, like, nobody was around. Nothing happened. Nobody followed me. Nobody saw me. Counted the cash.

Counted the cash. I had like 12 grand. It wasn't a lot of money. You know what I mean? How exciting is that, though? You just got away. I mean, it was, it was easy. It was really easy. It was really easy. So you know what? I said, you know what? I'm going to do it again. I did time with a guy like that. He did it once just with a note. And he was like, how many times can I do this before I get caught? And he sure enough, he pulled like 12 bank jobs. Yeah. So yeah. I think the majority of banks now get robbed with notes. Yeah. I think people know. I mean, I heard about guys that were, couldn't afford health care for their cancer treatments. So they would just go pass a note to a bank and then they get shot to the feds, low level fed yards, fed facilities, and then they get, you know, medical treatment.

Yeah. That's a little hack for you guys out there. That's if you want to know what, if anybody ask you, what's health care like in America? You say, well, it's great in federal prison. You have to rob a bank and go to federal prison if you want to afford health care in America. Yeah, definitely. So you got away with it though i get i got away with it and it's it's kind of crazy right because obviously i have history of like doing robberies when i was younger so i i i think in the back of my mind i always wanted to hit a bank anyway that was just something in me and it's not something i really proud of but i think in the back of my mind i always wanted to hit a bank had you guys ever talked about that with your old crew no no

we were just doing the home invasions back in those days right but um yeah so i'm like you know what let me go do another one. And so I'm driving around different neighborhoods, trying to find another bank. I settled on a city bank in what's called like the Laurel, Laurel neighborhood. Like it's a nice neighborhood. It's a nice neighborhood. Had you started looking for a job like you told yourself you were going to do? I wasn't. Okay. I wasn't looking for a job. Shocker. Yeah. So, yeah, terrible, right. That's all right. So I was casing out these different banks. banks. Some of these banks I noticed have these like automatic, automatic door locks. So like if you go into like a certain bank, once you go in, the door behind you locks. That's what they were doing around this time. So I'm like, all right, I got to make sure if I do another bank, that doesn't happen because I've seen some banks. And then the only way to get out of the bank is if they press a button to let you out. Right, right. So I found a bank, a city bank. I found a city bank. And, um, I was going to, you know, I parked my car around the block.

I figured out how I'm going to get out of the area. And I had a moment before I went into the bank. Like I remember standing in the street and like looking in the sky. And I'm like, if I get caught, I'm getting like 15 years at least. And then another thing I said to myself, I'll never see my dog again. I said that. I got a dog. My dog was like really important to me.

And I said, I'm never going to see my dog again. So sure enough, I go in the bank and it's like 450, 455 right before they close at 5 o'clock. And I pass the note to the teller. And I'm looking in the reflection, right, of the glass. And somebody walks in right behind me while I'm passing the note. And she's looking at the note. She looks at me. She's freaking out.

I can tell like she's starting to jitter. And I'm like, all right, I got to get out of here. So I actually run out of the bank. I run out of the bank. I'm running around the corner. I'm taking off my coat. And when I took off my coat, I must have dropped my cell phone. So I drew your phone in with you?

Yeah, I had it in like a little pocket in my jacket. So yeah, really, really bad, really crazy. And I jumped in my car, got out of the area, drove far away, took off on my clothes. same drill Yeah looking all over from my phone Where's my phone

Out? Where's my phone I'm looking Under my seat And I'm like Fuck like I think I dropped my phone I dropped my phone

I think How am I gonna like Get my phone Because if they get the The police Get their hands on my phone It's not locked Like phones

My phone wasn't locked I think I had like a Samsung phone back then And All they got to do Is go on my phone And find information You know what I mean

Trace my number Whatever So, yeah, I mean, so I panicked. I panicked. I went to, I actually drove back to the scene. And I was like looking around on the ground. I didn't see nothing. So there was a bunch of cops there and I just left the area.

And I panicked. I actually went to my mom's house. And I told my mom, I used to tell my mom everything. Like my mom was my best friend. I told my mom, this is what happened. I think I left my phone there. Can you call my phone from your phone to see who answers my phone? And I told her like to star six, seven my phone.

Star six seven, so it's blocked, right? And so somebody answered the phone. She has it on speaker. And I think it's a cop. And I just told her to hang up. And I'm like, you know, now I'm just my, I'm losing it. I know if they trace this phone back to me, I'm done. you know and so i i i was panicking i was like hey mom do you think you can go over there and see if

you see anybody over there yeah like i'm like just in a very very bad frame of mind you know what i mean and now i'm asking my mom to do favors for me and i didn't realize till later like now i'm crossing up my own mom yeah you know what i mean and at the moment i'm not thinking that in the moment i'm only thinking about how am I going to get out of this. You know what I mean? So, you know, I, she, she left, she left her place for a while. I don't think she went anywhere. I think she just left and like, you know, pretending like she was going to go help me out.

And I think during that time, she called my sister and told her, hey, your brother, guess what your brother did? My other sister, because I got four sisters. And they told my mom to turn me in. Wow. Just like your father turned you. in all those years before. The only two times I've ever been arrested

for serious, serious crimes in my life. I got turning by my dad and I got turning by my mom. Wow. So needless to say, a couple days later, you know, I'm like laying low, going to my mom's house, like laying low there. She didn't tell me nothing.

She wasn't home. I was there with my dog, and I hear like a knock on the door. And so I go to the front of the house and I'm like looking out the window and as I'm looking out the window someone's already opening the door and I come around the corner

and it's a cop, gun, freeze, get on the ground, you're arrested and there I was arrested for the bank robbery right there on the spot. Okay, so then what happened? So they take me down to 850 Bryant in the San Francisco main jail. Where you were?

Where I was like, you know, 25 years ago, something like that. That must have tripped you out. Yeah, it was bad because they had a brand new jail now. So they took me to the brand new jail. Okay. They didn't take me to the old jail. So now you're around all these youngsters and are wilding and they're all on fucking drugs.

Yeah. The whole game has changed. Yeah. So initially, they take me up to robbery detail. They leave you in a room. They play mind games with you. They just leave you in there all day long, let you minef yourself so you can, like, maybe tell on yourself. And so many, many hours later,

I mean, this is like maybe 12 o'clock in the afternoon. Like by 5 o'clock, two dudes walk in the robbery detail. And I'm, you know, I'm handcuffed to the chair the whole time. You know what I mean? I'm not going anywhere. Two guys walk in and they sat down and they show me their badges, FBI. Because these are bank robberies. And I'm like, oh, my God, I think this is going to be bad now

because the FBI wants to investigate me because these are banks, right? hit the banks. Federal. So now, they try to interview me. I have nothing to say. You know, I've been down this road before. I keep my mouth shut. And they left. And they booked me in the county jail a little while later.

Thankfully, the feds didn't pick up the case. You know, it was kind of a small case for them. It wasn't like a lot of money involved. Right. So, but they, the FBI did come in to talk to me. And so after that, they booked me. and for the next five months I was in the San Francisco County Jail fighting my case and waving time, waving time

they're going to three strike me. They wanted a three strike me initially. How is that possible? You didn't have strikes going into your first sentence. Right, but when I pled guilty to all those charges when I was younger, I pled guilty to like nine felonies. Okay. And they just ran everything concurrent. So they could potentially take that

and give you three strikes? Yeah. Even though you didn't have prior strikes? No. That's so fucked up. Yeah. So I had, you know, technically like nine felonies under my belt. Violence. That I've been convicted of. Gun charges.

Arm robberies. I mean, it was like the same type of stuff. So, you know, my lawyer at the time, she's like an angel to me. She's like a mom to me. Now her name's Rebecca Young. Still the great attorney in San Francisco. She's like, you need to bail out of jail. You need to get out of here.

If you don't get out of here, they're going to hang you. they're going to hang you and you're never getting out. Now, what was she implying by that? Like, you need to get out to go on the run? No, just get out of jail to have an even plain field to maybe fight my case. Okay. Explain to us why it's so important when you're fighting your case to be out of jail. Yeah, so when you're in custody and you're not going anywhere,

they could bring you to court any time they want and they can kind of take you to like a speedy trial or a speedy pretrial and move the process along quicker. if you're actually out of custody and you're waiving time and you have a good attorney that's waving the time for you because you're out of custody you're not that much of a um you're not that important to the system it's like the people that are there in the jail those are the guys are trying to push into the system quickly is that to open up bed space yeah because it's so overcrowded yeah it seems to me like they would if they want to push you into the system and get you out of jail to the penitentiary, it seems like they would be more apt to give you a plea deal.

Does it not? Yeah. I mean, for me, at least in San Francisco, which is technically kind of a liberal county, you know, it's kind of a liberal county. You know, according to my attorney, because she was an attorney for 20 plus years, like if you stay in custody, they're going to take you to court and push you out within six months. So that's how she looked at it. And she was like, you just need to get out of here.

You know. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So I got out. Thankfully, so, you know, this is like five months in. I'm in the county jail. I had this moment where I'm looking out the window, looking at the Bay Bridge, and I'm like, I think my life's going to end this way. Like, my life's over. Like, I'm done. Like, I really thought I was going to get struck out. And that's when my whole, like, this relentless attitude happened for me. You know, obviously I hit a low point. by going out robbing a bank and like mentally emotionally I was like at a low point in my life but now I'm sitting in jail I'm sobering up I'm not doing drugs I'm cleaning myself up I've been sober now for like you know three four or five months and I'm like my attitude's changing my mindset's changing I'm like all right how do I get out of here and so I start reaching out to all these different friends I have an old girlfriend going to my old Facebook and get phone numbers because I don't know anybody's phone numbers they start calling making all these contacts for me,

you know, one ex-girlfriend threw in a thousand bucks. Somebody else threw in $100, $200. So I raise enough money like $10,000 to get 10% of my $100,000 bail. And so, but at this point, I have the cash, but I don't have a co-signer. In order to get out on bail, you need a co-signer. Otherwise, you're not going to get out. So I'm like, so co-signor, just like you're, if you need a co-signer, to go buy a car if you need a co-signer for any type of loan you need somebody that's going to

vouch for you if you skip bail and disappear there has to be somebody that the bail bondsman or the police can go after to like basically ruin if you disappear right so i didn't have anybody to co-sign for me you know what i mean um i asked mike an ex-girlfriend you know i asked some friends nobody would co-sign for me because nobody wanted to be on paperwork nobody wanted to be involved with the trouble I'd got myself into. And I couldn't reach out to my family because by now, my family had completely cut me off. So my whole family wasn't even talking to me.

I had, like, no one to reach out to. So, like, my ex-girlfriend was, like, the one that was, like, making all the calls for me. So I thought for a little while, and I'm like, you know what, I have a couple of cousins. Maybe they'll help me. And so I had my nephew reach out to my cousins and say, hey, you know,

where Mario's at. You know, Mario's in jail. He needs some co-signers. Will you guys help him out? And my cousins, like, without any hesitation, my cousin, Monica and Eli,

they're like, yeah, we'll help him. No problem. So I had the cash. Now I finally have somebody to co-sign for me to save my butt. And they got in touch with the bail bondsman.

They did everything. The cash was given to the bailed bondsman. And I was able to get out of the county jail. they let me out of like 2 o'clock of the morning, you know, and I was out. And so at that point, I was still in Scramble Mode because during that, during those five months I'm in the county, I lost everything, I lost my place, I lost my car, my family's not talking to me. I lost all my money. I lost my dog. My girl left me. I lost everything. So I'm like, I'm at square one again. Square one, but like really, really bad, but all I have within me is this hope. And like, I got to beat this.

how am I going to beat this? And now that you're out, you can just keep pushing. How was your attorney able to just keep delaying the court appearances and delaying the court appearances? It's amazing. Is that because California is so bogged down with cases? I think the judicial system in California or even San Francisco, like that once again, the priority are the people that are in custody where they can push them into the system

quickly versus people that are out of custody, fighting the case. So yeah, I mean, it was amazing. For me, I don't know, I obviously think like a higher power was looking out for me to like allow this time to be passed. But basically at that point on, I'm in San Francisco. I'm in scramble mode. I have a friend in Vegas that says, hey, you can come stay with me. My good friend, Tony, he was like, hey, you can come out to Vegas and stay with me.

It's a good place to stay off drugs. Well, actually not really because when I got out to Vegas. Yeah, I know. I'm fucking with you. When I got out to Vegas and my, my homie out there was like deep in the party scenes, strip clubs. So here we are. I'm out on bail. He's fighting his own case. And, you know, but at the same time, he's working on a project.

He's working on his own film project about his life and all this stuff. He's done. And so he's like, you can help me. And I have all these, you know, natural sales skills. By this time, I've been into sales game 15 years. and very comfortable on the phone calling people talking to professionals. And so I start cold calling on all these agencies like CAA, UTA, WME. I'm calling all these different talent agents, managers, recruiting people for this short film we're working on.

Wow. And meanwhile, we would work on the film all day and then at nighttime we'd go party. Okay. So we were in-back on the Yale? No, no, I wasn't doing it. It's still drinking. Okay. But I wasn't doing any drugs.

Okay. And that's when I really stopped doing that stuff. Okay. Like I quit the yay. Good. Completely quit it. Still drinking, having a good time. But that yay to me is like, that's the devil to me.

Definitely. Yeah. I've seen a lot of people ruin their lives with that stuff. And for me, definitely ruined my life too. Yeah. Wow. So, and you're in Vegas for about a year. So.

And what is your attorney? How often does she have to go to the courts? Yeah. and be like, hey, we want an extension. Like, does she explain to you that kind of process? Yeah, I mean, every time she went to court, I would be there with her. So I would fly back or I'd drive back, whatever I had to do to get back to court because I was out on bail. I had to be at court.

Yeah. So every single time I had court, I was there. I made every single court appearance. And the state didn't know you'd left the county. No, actually, yeah, they didn't know that I was in Vegas. They just, you know, they just thought I was out of the area. Right. But once again, just being away from all that, it helped me to just stay out of the city,

stay away from like hanging out with like my old friends and doing stuff, things that were familiar with me. Yeah. Familiar to me. Now what about your old codies, the ones who you did robberies with? Did they get out of prison on time or what were some of their journeys? One of them went to YA. Okay.

One of them went to YA and got out in about five years. Okay. He had less time to me. He had like eight years. Okay. Because I took a gun charge, so that's why I had the most time. And then the other guy, he did about four or five years, too. He went through the system, CDC.

Whatever became of them. Well, they're Asian. So they had a different way of doing their time. With the Asian cars, they don't have any political crap to deal with in prison. They just hang out with the others do their time and get out. You know, I'm sure they still have their own issues. one actually I hear is doing very well like he's an entrepreneur has his own business or businesses and the other one I think became a chef okay so they ended up okay and they never went back you know their family dynamics were different than mine yes you know I don't think they were partying like I was yeah but anyway

I was in Vegas for the whole year we worked on this film we actually made a film um starring the rapper g easy um And that film actually went on to win like multiple awards on like the short film circuit. And meanwhile, I'm still fighting my case this whole time going to court like every three months. What are you going to court for? Just to waifetime, just to make an appearance. And did they was the was the DA ever like, because this went on for what six years? This went on for six and a half years. So was the DA ever like, all right, motherfucker, put up or shut up?

No, they're allowing me to, they're just. allowing me to waive time. Do you hear that folks? Yeah. Rob a bank in San Francisco. This is, this is part of the reason Republicans, uh, have a point. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Like, I mean, honestly, I'm glad you didn't go back. Yeah. No. It's, uh, it's pretty, it's pretty unfair. You know, some guy is sitting in Angola because he, he robbed an AMPM and fucking Bat Rouge, Louisiana. And he, and they gave him 75 years. It's, uh, it's, this is the, this is the, American, this is the federalist system, right? This is the differences between states.

It's fascinating. I don't recommend robbing any banks in San Francisco, but. But you will get away with it. But in my case, I'd like to think I'm maybe one of the only people. I mean, I got lucky. I got lucky at a higher power looking out for me. I had a good attorney. I got lucky with the DA.

But anyway, I fought the case for, you know, six years, six and a half years. What were the arguments you were making or your lawyer was making in some of these court appearances? So I moved to L.A. in 2016. Okay. Moved to L.A. in 2016. I got back on track doing loans, working in the financial world. I was managing offices. I started going to therapy. I started going to substance abuse therapy. I was getting letters of recommendation from all of the owners and bosses that I worked for. Okay. And so I was getting paperwork, giving it to my attorney. She'd show it to the DA. like, look, he's working.

Right. He's getting therapy. He's changing. He's been cleaned five, six years. He maybe needs more time because he's just got a new job or whatever. So, but she's showing like positive reasons. Yeah. She's showing positive reasons that I changed my life.

I'm making good money. I'm being independent. Did you realize that like it was probably your father, like the really hard, cold relationship with your father that probably had something to do with, you know, trauma and addiction? Did you ever work that out? I think for me at a very young age, even when I was like in, you know, I started drinking when I was like 12, 13 years old. So I was partying already in San Francisco when I was 12, 13, 14, 15.

We were in 21 and over clubs when I was 15. Right. So I was always partying. I was always having a good time. And then, you know, alcohol, other drugs led one thing to another. Yeah. So that was a real big cause of your. I guess, anti-social decisions.

Yeah, I think my big downfall was just doing drugs and making bad decisions. But why, though? It comes from somewhere. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And you never figured that out. No, I don't think so. Because when I quit doing drugs, I quit it cold turkey.

Yeah. Like I said, like, I looked at the pattern of my life. All the times that I've made mistakes. When I was young, I was doing drugs and I did all these robberies. And then years later, I was doing drugs and I did, you know, another, another robbery. Yeah. And it was just during those years that I think I was really low on myself, like my own, my own, you know, ego and confidence that I hit rock bottom. And I made really bad choices.

Yeah, I guess it doesn't really matter at the end of the day why you're doing the drugs. If you know that that's what causes you to go ruin your life is when you take a drink or do a drug. Yeah. then that's what you have to not do. Definitely. So for me, I think it was the Coke. I'm going to stick to that because that's what I was doing when things really went bad for me. Yeah.

So anyway, I was in L.A. working, doing really well, making money again. I'm clean. That's the most important thing. I'm clean. And right around the time in 2020, there is a new DA election in San Francisco. go district attorney. That's right. So a new DA got elected.

His name was Chesa Boudin. He was one of these like social justice DAs. And his whole thing was giving people a chance. So I was fighting my case for five, six, seven years almost. And my attorney knew him personally. And she started getting in his ear. Nice. She started providing all this paperwork of all the good stuff I was doing.

Yeah. Showing change. Yeah. showing good income, showing stability. And then they even asked me to start taking drug tests. So I was paying for my own drug tests and giving them drug tests, like every time I went to court, like, look, I'm clean. I'm clean.

And finally, in I think July of 21, or like June of 21, I got a call from my attorney. And she says, they're going to drop everything. Wow. And I'm like, are you serious? Like, I couldn't believe it because I still thought I was going to get some time out of this. Right. I thought even if it was like two or three years, I thought I was still going to have to go do some time.

Right. But this DA was going to like make an example out of me and give me a chance with this new like social justice opportunity program for, you know, offenders. And so July, I went to court, you know, I went suited up, looking good, talking to the judge, laid out the track record. The judge even commended me. The judge commended me. He's like, you made this happen. You did the work. Yeah.

And now you got to just keep doing the right thing. And they let me go. And I beat the case after like six and a half years. Incredible. How many times had you gone to court in those six and a half years? 5,200 times. Oh, my God. A lot.

How much did you have to pay this lawyer? Well, she was actually a court appointed attorney. Wow. God bless her. She was a court appointed attorney. We talk a lot of shit about. dump trucks in the system. I got 50 years. My lawyer was a truck. But some of them really are just salt to the earth and great attorneys. Yeah. She's a she's a great woman. She's been, you know,

an attorney for like probably 20, 30 years. Yeah. Just one of those people that really wants to help people. Yeah. And she fought for me. She fought for me when I had nobody. Yeah. So to this day, we're really, really good friends. She's like a mom to me. Incredible. And that was, you know, now over four years ago or about four years ago. And you stay clean. Yeah. And tell us about what you got going on now, man. Yeah.

So ironically enough, right when I beat the case, I ended up getting my mortgage license. I was working at a really good mortgage bank, making like close to 300 grand a year, doing really well. And then the markets went a little crazy in 2022, 2023. They were laying off a bunch of people. They demoted me to become a loan. officer. I had to get other licensing with other states. And that's when they did an FBI background check on me. And I lost my job. Oh, fuck. That was the first, um, background check I ever flunked.

Why did, uh, why did you get that FBI background check when you got demoted? I don't understand. Because as a sales manager, I wasn't interacting with clients. I was only interacting with my team. as a loan officer, I would be receiving people's social security numbers, documentation. Right. So I needed more licenses for this. Right. And so when they did this background check on me, I failed it. It brought up my whole rap sheet from 93.

Yeah. It brought up all my DUIs. But they, of course, they looked at my prison because on the FBI background check, it says, you know, CDC sang quitting, 124 months or whatever. And so I lost my job. But that blew them away. They're like, holy shit. They saw him. They're like, this dude's working for us.

We got to get rid of him. You know what I mean? So I lost my job immediately. Yeah. And then at that point, I said, you know what? I have the ending to my story in the back of my mind. I'm like, I'm always going to write a book. And so I started writing my book.

And for the last two years, I've written my book. It's being edited. It'll be out in a couple of months. It's called Relentless Mindset, Tired of hiding my past. and also what I want to continue to do is work with maybe like the incarcerated community that wants to change your life. I'm looking at starting a nonprofit where I can help people coming out of prison with like a resume, building their credit, credit cleaning, stuff like that to like really, because

I was there before. I have the blueprint. I made the blueprint of like how to stay out of jail, how to have decent jobs, how to kind of go around loopholes. So those are the kind of things that I want. want to do now. And how to stay strong when there are setbacks, like, because it feels super unfair after all these years of being clean and, and having success and then suddenly you lose your job because of some shit that happened 30 years ago. It feels like you want to blame the

world. Yeah. That's the worst, worst way to go through life in any kind of, in any kind of life that you have. It's the worst kind of mindset to have. So I think that's important too. It's like, how do you, how do you bounce back? Because your life has just been about bouncing back. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably the most important thing, right? Yeah. And that's the whole thing about being relentless is just never giving up on yourself. Yeah. And finding a way. And so, you know, that was something that now, because I'm clean and I'm making good decisions, that's the direction I'm going in with my life now. I want to help people. I want to, you know, help them out with my story of, you know, how you can like become successful even if you do get out of prison.

And there's a way to go about doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, where can people find you? Yeah. No, thank you. I have a website.

It's called Relentless-Mineset.com. You could find my book there, pre-order it. My merch is going to be there. My Instagram is the Mario Sanchez. And, yeah, I'm looking to just really promote the book. still work with people motivating different groups, talking to kids and helping people that are coming out of prison or jail that want a second chance, how they can like develop their own blueprint. That's awesome, man. That was a, it's a real odyssey that you've been through.

Yeah, it's been crazy. But I think it's, I like guys like you. You know, I don't, you usually relate to people that have just had a smooth, linear path in their life. I like dudes that lose it all and get it all back. Yeah, I've done it a few. times. So, you know, most successful people have. Most successful entrepreneurs, even if the ones that weren't criminals, you know, they lose their first million and then they make five million and they lose that. And then, you know, they just, you know, that's every hacky quote. It's not about,

it's not about where you're at. It's about bouncing back. And America loves that. Definitely. Comeback story. Yeah. That's it, man. That's it. Well, listen, Mario, I really appreciate it, man. Thank you. And go check out Relentless Dash Mindset. We'll link to everything in the description and the comments, follow him and the book. The book, the book, the book. So they can get it pre-ordered? They can get it pre-ordered.

Everything's on my website. I got the cover made up. We're just finishing up the final edits for it. It'll be out like in the next 60 days. And then I just really want to promote the hell out of that. Also, I'm talking to a writer from United Talent Agency that wants to develop my story for like a series, like a streaming series.

so I'm still interested in like the film stuff, the series stuff. And that's, the book is really just phase one to open the door for other things. That's awesome, man. Cool. All right, you guys. Yeah. We appreciate you. Thank you, Mario.

Thank you. And we'll see you guys on the flip side. Take care. Peace. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly.

Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong. So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes. a smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this

tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana. Pick up these may apply.