The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Inside The Chinese Mafia: Triad Member Explains How Chinese Organized Crime Works | The Connect

Episode Date: September 30, 2023

As a young immigrant child in New York City's Chinatown, Jimmy "Bighead" Tsui quickly became immersed in the gang world of the Lower East Side. He quickly rose the ranks and soon became an associate of the Chinese Mafia in Hong Kong moving drugs in and out of the country. He joins the show to breakdown exactly how Chinese gangs operated in the US and Hong Kong before he left the life of crime, became a volunteer police officer, and started being a positive influence on the youth in the neighborhood that raised him. Check Out Chinatown Gang Stories! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ @chinatowngangstories   IG: https://www.instagram.com/chinatowngangstories/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/ @chinatowngangstories  This Episode Is Brought To You By The Following Sponsors: HelloFresh: https://www.hellofresh.com/50connect Promo Code: 50CONNECT BetterHelp: https://www.betterhelp.com/connect Promo Code: CONNECT Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th, the powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th, and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at Yamavat Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. You survived the Miami weekend.

Nailed the speech and maxed out your credit card in the name of friendship. Now you've got one hangover, four pastel dresses, and zero reasons to wear them again. Sell them on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. And you at least get some of your dignity. Money back. Someone on Deepop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Deepop where taste recognizes taste. What's up everyone? I'm coming on the road to do stand up. October 12th, I'll be in Toledo, October 15th. I'll be at hilarities in Cleveland.

November 1st, I will be at the Stress Factory in Bridgeport, Connecticut. November 2nd, I will be in New Brunswick, New Jersey. On the 5th of November, I'm going to be at the New York Comedy Club doing the New York Comedy Festival right here in New York City. November 15th, I'm in Dallas at Hyenas, November 16th. I'm in Austin at the Vulcan. Do not miss that one. On December 14th, I'm in San Diego. And on December 21st, Zanis in Chicago, this is a big one. I got a lot of fans in Shytown. Come out to that. Let's pack it out. Get your tickets at Johnny Mitchell.biz. All right. Let's get into the episode. I saw a lot of people, you know why? A lot of people stand over there and shook over there.

So I was curious. And then I went up and I saw my friends lying on the fall. And then I pushed out of the people. I was going in. What happened? What happened? And at that time, he's still breathing. The cops said, Lap and weapon, and then I say, my friends got stabbed. You guys, today I talked to Jimmy Sue, aka Big Head. Jimmy is one of the original Chinese gangsters of Chinatown right here in New York City. He joined the Tongon Street Gang when he was only 14 years old. He was getting in shootouts when he was in high school, in the middle of the street.

He was extorting businesses. He was running gambling operations. Then in the 80s, he was involved with the Chinese. gangs of Chinatown importing raw heroin from Thailand, China White. He was also sending Coke back to Hong Kong where he's originally from. I mean, this guy has done it all. He finally got out of the game right before a big Rico case came down and he's fully legit now. He's got a great channel called Chinatown Gang Stories. Go check that out. This guy is real OG. Respected on the streets of New York. You've seen him on Vlad TV before.

This guy was one of the best guests we've ever had. It was unbelievable. And we got bonus episode footage with him. He's telling us stuff that he could never tell the general public. So if you want to hear that, go check it out on patreon.com slash the Connect show for that bonus footage. All right. Without further ado, Jimmy Sue on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. With you guys join the gang, that's the only two ways for final result.

First, do time in the jail. Second, got killed by the animal. That's when I see lights behind me start to flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on. And then I parked the car, popped out, closed the door, and I started running. And he pulls out a burner, shank. It's like six inches.

And he passes it to me. And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I made it out of a place alive. Jimmy Shue, Big Head. Thanks for coming in, man. You're welcome. I saw you on Vlad's interview and on Insight.

Yeah. And I was like, wow, this guy's a star. He looks like every villain in a Chuck Norris movie for the 80s. Did you check out our channel? No. Our own channel. You didn't check out. No.

China gang story. That's what we're here to plug. That's what we're here to plug. So Chinatown Gang Story on YouTube. I did see clips. I did not see the full. episodes, but I saw clips, and I just realized we haven't had this story on The Connect. You come from a time and a place that I think is mostly overlooked in American history when we talk

about gangs and crime and all that stuff. But it's like, it's fascinating. And I'm getting chills talking about it. So thank you for coming. You're not that century. You're so young. What's that? You're not that century. You're so young. But I remember hearing about, you know, watching movies, that depicted these New York, Chinatown gang members in like the 80s and 90s. I'm a whole enough to remember that. And I'd be like, where?

But you're not a New Yorker. No, I'm from the West Coast. All the Chinese people on the West Coast are like people that own Chinese restaurants in San Francisco. So what is the difference? Let's talk about the history of Chinese immigrants to America first.

What is the difference between the Chinese who built the railroads, the Chinese on the West Coast, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, L.A. and the Chinese who came to New York? I think the first immigrant from China to the United States is San Francisco first. San Francisco first? Yeah, not New York.

Right. After San Francisco, like the railroad's done, everything's done, and they cannot look for a job because maybe it's too many Chinese over there at that time, I don't know. And they start to split out and they start to move to East Coast. And at that time, and it's not, you know, Chinese people in New York. Right. Yeah.

And then after you grow up and people who think, like, okay, most of the people from Hong Kong or Taiwan, they love San Francisco because the weather. It's similar to Hong Kong, right? It's very mild. Yes, yes. But the people from China, my mainland China, and they don't care about the weather.

They just care about which place can they make the most money. Money. Yeah, so people start, you know, coming to New York. You were born in China? I born in Hong Kong. I never been to China. I've never been to China. You were born in Hong Kong. Right.

Right, of course, of course. Do you go back now at all? Yeah, yeah. Your family moved straight to New York City? Yes. And to Chinatown? Yes. And what did your parents do?

Factory. Worked in factories? Yeah. Clothing. Uh-huh. Do Chinese people, are there still factories down there? No, not anymore. Wow.

What happened? They all got outsourced? Because they compared the economy with China. They make, okay, they make a clothing in China and then ship it back to here. The price even cheaper than here to make. you know, the merchandise. Right. Right.

So Chinese people that used to own factories in Chinatown were like, let's go back home and make it. Yeah, I know a couple owner before they owned a couple of factories in Chinatown.

They all went back to China. Wow. Wow. But their kids probably stayed here. Yeah, the kids stayed here. So you're from that generation that grew up in the 70s and 80s. Yes.

Right? Yes. What was Chinatown like back then? When I first come to New York. Okay. You know how's the Chinatown right now? Yeah, super trendy. When you go into China, you see all the signs is Chinese.

The people walking in the street is Chinese. They speak Chinese language, maybe Mandarin, maybe for Guineas. But most you see is Chinese people. But when the time I'm first coming here, all black. Really? Black people in Chinatown. Yeah, I was here in 1978. Okay.

And when the time I got here, it's night time. Like, I think it's like when I'm in heaven something, okay, at night time. When I first got to the Chinatown, you know what I see? At that time, okay, I tell you first. At that time, only 12. Okay, I still a kid. And the first picture into my mind, you know, what's that? A hooker stand all the street.

A bunch of hookers? Yeah. Wow. That's China. Wow. And did you even know what they were? Yeah. You knew they were women.

that we're prostituting? Yeah, because the place I live in Hong Kong is same thing. Of course. Yeah, of course. So that must have been a pretty, Hong Kong's a very international city, New York is a pretty, the most international city. So it must have been a pretty easy transition.

Yeah, yeah, you can say that, but. Maybe not so easy. The big problem is the language. Right. At that time, don't even speak English, no English. Wow. Only Chinese. Only Cantonese.

You can say that. Only Cantonese. Yes. Tell us the difference really quick between the Chinese ethnicities. Okay. Chinese, China, in China, the main language is Mandarin. It's not Cantonese.

They say Cantonese only for the, you know, the Canton-sized people. The what? Canton. You know what's Canton? It's like the east side of China. Oh, okay. No, I'm not familiar. Yeah, yeah.

Only the, you know, only the, they say it's like, It's not a main language. So you can easily tell people, like when they speak to you, when they talk to you, they speak Mandarin or Cantonese, so you know where they come from. That's how they, you know, separate the different Chinese.

Right, right. But they're all Chinese, though, but different districts. Are the people who speak Cantonese, are they discriminated against in China because they are the minority? Like the way the Uyghur Muslims, you know, we're all hearing about them. I know, I know what you're talking about.

But nah, I don't think so, no. Yeah. Maybe, I don't know maybe in the future, but nah, that way now. So, and what kind of, you know, you talked about like the Tongs and there was another two groups of Chinese people that maybe look a little different, have different backgrounds in China. Can you talk about that? What do you mean? What do you mean? For instance, like the people that have.

that there was different cliques and different gangs in Chinatown and in New York City. I believe you said or I saw somebody saying that they were, they segregated themselves according to where they came from in China. Is that true? Okay, you mean the old gangster in Chinatown? Right. At my time, most of the gang in China is from either from Hong Kong or, they born in here. Okay, low one from China.

Right, right. Some little people from Vietnam, Burmere, but no, I don't think so. After the 80, when, you know, the beginning of 90, and then start people from China to join the gang. Was your generation, when you came over in 78, were you guys the first generation of Chinese to take over Chinatown?

turn it into what it is today? Like, did a bunch of other Chinese immigrants come over? No. No. No? Somebody did that before, but maybe it's not working out. Well, no, it's clearly working in your favor. There's no black people down there anymore. Yeah, somebody did do that before, but it's not working out. And then after, after, you know, we join in and then we start to, you know, clear the street and what do you mean clear the street? Like, how did you get into the street? Your parents are from, you know, humble beginnings. You know, that's why they moved to this country.

They were factory workers. Were you guys poor? Yeah, real poor. Real poor. How many, did you live in one of those tenements? Yeah, I live in Lower East Side. My apartment is a studio. There's no bedroom, nothing, for five people.

Because I have brother and sister. Wow. And my parents, we all sleeping on the floor. And my parents are going to work like seven o'clock until like nine o'clock at nighttime every day. every day. Every day. So you never saw your parents

until the end of the day. Yeah. Wow. Every day. Every day is like this. And so you had no supervision for the whole day? No.

And was there racism back then? Yeah. Against from black people and the people in the neighborhood? Wow. I remember the first day I was school, junior high school. I almost got beat up a bright, bad guy.

Uh-huh. Almost. And at that time, And don't even know what happened was racist. Why, why he acted like that? I don't know. So I asked my classmates, because they say, because we are Chinese, he's black. And these things always happen, back then.

Wow. Yeah, now it's getting better. Now it's getting a lot of better. Yeah, of course, because you guys are a part of New York. Yeah. And before back then, like, China Town is like, it's not controlling by all Chinese before. it's like all different people in Chinatown.

So after I joined the gang and then just what I said before, we start to strip the streets, clean the street. What do you mean to clean the street? We start kicking other people out. Okay. What do you mean? Like before there's a hooker, staying on the street at nighttime, we don't let them stand on the street,

tell them to move. And this is the gang doing that. Yes. So they move it to Delancey. Right, Delancey Street. Yeah. Yeah. They're all moving to the Lansing before they are inside of China town.

But not anymore. Now, did any of the Chinese gangs actually get into prostitution themselves, like pimping out? At that time, no. Okay, so let's talk about how you first got into gang life then. So you're poor. Your family is working and struggling. You're living in a studio apartment. Yeah.

The schools are terrible. I'm sure you went to a public school. Actually, when I was here, I was like working with my parents. parent in the factory for like four months. Because the school didn't start yet. The school started in September. Right. I was here in Abel.

Yeah. So I went to work with my parents every day to help them out in the factory. For that four months, nothing happened. Because I go to work, off work, go homes, eat, sleep. That's it. Every day is the same thing, doing the same thing. But when the school starts, when they're, you know, When first time, I was in 8th grade.

Yeah, yeah, 8th grade. The class I'm in is ESL. You know what's ESL? English as a second language. Okay. So all my classmates is almost like 80% Chinese. Yeah. Like they're immigrants from Hong Kong, Taiwan, whatever.

But very little China. I don't know why at that time. Okay. Because it was communist. leave back then? I think so. It's hard to leave. Yeah.

But now, like 80% is from China. Right, of course. They're trying to get the fuck out before the end comes. Yeah. And when I first start the school, I didn't pay attention with anybody. I just wanted, you know, go to school, learn some English, get into this life, okay? But come out how and I don't, you know, I don't want to bother people. but people start bothering us

because there's already a gangster in China. That time I don't know. I don't know what kind of a gangster they have in China. I know nothing. You can say I know nothing. But when like every time we're off school, when we, you know, get out of school and on the street, always like people stand on the streets waiting for,

first I thought is they're waiting for a girl, but they're not. They're focusing on. on that deal with you in between. Spring weekends are all about family, sunshine, and evenings on the patio. Before everyone arrives, I stop by my local Total Wine and More to grab a great bottle to share. With such a wide selection and the lowest prices, it's easy to find something amazing for everyone to enjoy. If you're not sure what to pick, their friendly guides can help. Find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and More.

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Yeah. Who was the gang, the Chinese gang when you first got here? The first gang I contacted with this ghost shadow. What is it called? Ghost shadow. Ghost shadow. Yeah. And I thought Chinese people didn't like ghosts.

I thought that was a big faux paa. But anyways. But anyway, they make their name just Gold Shuttle. Okay. And these are, what were they into? Like, what was a gang back in the 70s? Look, what was that like? A Gold Shadows, their terminatories on Mar Street, Bayer Street,

a little part of Elizabeth Street. Okay, that's their territory. And they have been in New York for, I think, beginning of 70. It's been a long time. Right. And at that time, they don't have a tongue on yet. Right.

Nobody know what's tong on. Right. Okay. And people only know what's Gold Shuddle and was Fire Dragon. Right. What's it called? Fire Dragon. Yeah. That was the other gang? Yes. Downtown? There's most. Yeah. In Chinatown.

Right. In Chinatown. So. It's like a court street from Maast Street. Right. They're pushed up. Everything's pushed up against each other. Different gang, different street. But they are real close. They are like a next street. You can see, I can see you, you can see me like this. Okay. But the first gang, first gang I contact with is Gold Shadow. Because they try to, me and a couple of my classmates.

And maybe we are new immigrant and we got those kind of lobe, something, I don't know. And they tried to kick us to the gang. And we refused it. And how I joined Tongan, I did mention before, because this thing happened, the Gold Shadows saying that, like, you don't join our gang,

but you need my protection. And if you are not my boy, you have to pay every day for you to go to school. Wow. Just to go to school, you got to pay me so I don't fuck you up. Yeah. Like at that time, back then it's like $10. A lot of money to a Chinese kid. Yeah.

Yeah. So the guy was telling us that starting tomorrow when you come to school, okay, you have to pay me. Or you cannot go to school more. or we go to beat you up. So we didn't say anything. Did you believe them? Yeah, I believe them. I'm trying to picture what a Chinese gangster in 1978 looks like.

Like, did they have, you know, the forearm tats or was their hair longer? Yeah, long hair, high heel. High heels? Yeah. Remember the 70th? You know it was beechy? Yes, yes. Oh, they dress like the bejys?

Yeah, that's the low. That's funny. That's hilarious to picture some Chinese You know the Saturday Night Fever Yeah John Chaboda Right So the look

So the Chinese Well they were flashy Yeah They were flashy You guys You've had the goal Yeah You've got to go long hair

Yeah High Hill, Beggy Pan Um Girls around Were they like Chinese Like groupies For the gangs Yeah

But Not in the school Not on the street when we're off the school, we only see guys. Guys over there, we don't see no girl. And so they were involved in like basically extortion,

petty stuff, it sounds like. Yeah, after that. I found out that, yeah, that's what they do for living. It's just to extort people. Extorcing their own temporary store. And restaurants. Gambling house. Yeah, restaurant, of course.

Yeah, that's the big money. coming. Right. Oh yeah, and tell us about the gambling houses. You know, Chinese love to gamble. So what were those gambling parlors downtown back then? Okay. How was that?

Okay, gambling house at Baddam is always, like they open a band, gambling house always down in the basement or inside the association. Right. So we have a lot of association. Right. So association is like a social club? Yes. Okay, great.

Tell us about those too. is like a private club for members only. Like the Italians had in Little Little Italy. They have a different kind of association, like with your name is like John, Johnny. They have like associations for Johnny. So everybody's with your name is Johnny, you can join this association.

But if you're not, you can. You cannot go in. Okay, that's for members only. And they have all kind of different association. For people who, what they do in social, okay, the association, the main point when they build up association is helping the little immigrant. Like helping the kids go to school, helping them to get the health insurance or any kind of government benefit.

That's the main reason they open an association. But after a, you know, they have a big place, okay? It's not a small office for associations. for associates that big, over a thousand square feet, a big place for their own member to hand out. So with a lot of people over there and there's no games, what they why they're going to go up there for? Right. So they was thinking like, maybe we put some marjor, you know what's Marjor, Chinese domino. Oh, okay.

How do you say? Marjor, MJ. Okay, Marjor, got it. Yeah. When they first beginning, they just put some MJ's table over there for their members to pay MJ over there. But after, you know, when you first beginning to gamble and you was thinking, this is not enough. We need something bigger, just like casino. Right.

Okay. We need some 13 cards. We need some pay-go. Okay. So they start to open the 13-car and pay-goo and start building up the gambling house. Right. That's how the gambling house comes from. And you know how the Chinese people, they like gamble.

Right, right. They will night gamble. One gambling house is not good enough for them. So the other association saw that, okay, which one would call it, the league association, they have a gambling house over there, they make a lot of money. So we have an association here. Why don't we open a gambling house? So everybody open a gambling house.

Right. That's how the gambling house comes from. And so if you wanted to gamble, and you were part of one of these associations after dark, you would go there and you put some money down. They don't open the gambling house inside the association. But they open the gambling house downstairs the basement association.

Wow. Or upstairs, the same buildings are owned by the association. Do those still exist today? For the association gambling house, no. No? Individual, yes. What does that mean, an individual? No, you want to open a gun.

You know a lot about it. A lot of people is gambler. Right. You can open a gambling house yourself. Because now it's no gangster. No one who's going to restore you. Right. Okay.

But back in the day, you had to be a group. Yeah. Then you have to have some kind of background to bet you up to open this kind of business. Right. If you've got no background, to open this guy's business won't last a day. Because so, so gangs like the one you mentioned, the first one, Go Shadow, would go around to these gambling houses and shake them down for money.

Yes. Wow. And what if they refused? Did they ever blow their places up or? Nah, they're not going to blow the place. They just kick everybody else. Right. So you've got no business.

Right. And you cannot call the cop because you're a gambling house. Right. You're going to call a cop. Right. Right. Okay. So, wow, this is fascinating.

I'm fascinated by like old world You know Chinese ways Like San Francisco was the same way There was opium dens Was there any opium dens when you first got there In like in the 70s and 80s? No, that had all finished Not anymore

Maybe in San Francisco but not anymore Right Okay so tell us then about the first gang You refused to join Ghost Shadow What then happened? Then like Okay when that incident happened And then they left.

And we stand, you know, on the front of the school. And then we look at each other. At that time, we have me and three other guys, four people. So we look at each other. What we're going to do tomorrow? We have to bring money here for the school. And then one of my classmates saying that, oh, F them. Of course no.

I said, but no, how are we going to, you know, fight with this guy? So he's saying that, don't worry. go look for his cousin. So I say, who's your cousin, right? And he's just saying that, hey, follow me. You find out later.

So I follow him. Go across the street from the school. That's a little coffee shop over there. And the name is Waiki. Waki. Okay, coffee shop. So we went in the coffee shop. And then my friend saying that

this coffee shop, my cousin opened it. So he went inside and there's another guy come out with him and then he introduced him as Chris. So we knew each other and then we tell Chris what happened. And then Chris saying that, okay, don't worry,

you guys sit down here, having something to eat or something to drink on the house and he got to make some call. So he went back inside to the office for, like, I think it's like 10 or 15 minutes, and then we were way over there. And then you come back out and say, everything's settled.

Just go to school normally tomorrow. Nothing will happen to you. So who's this Chris guy? A leader of Tongan, the biggest one. Right. The dragon hat. There we go. And that's kind of the famous one.

His brother. That we see it. Wow. His brother. Okay. So tell us about the Tongans. Okay. Step by step.

Like, yes. So in the next day, so he says just go to school normally and nothing going to happen. So it's like important that we trust him or not. We still have to go to school, right? So next day, we go to school and then after school, when we walk out of school, we saw the same group again. we saw the same group again. Stand in front of the door, waiting for us. He saw us.

You know, you try to wait us over there, and we feel like we just stand there watching them. And then you try to, you know, walk over. And then the other group come from the other side. And that time, I don't know that. I don't know. They are there come for us. I thought they just passed by.

And other groups come over first, like, before this guy got in. and then the new group people asking us do you know Chris? I said yes and then he said oh okay

you guys just stay here and then they went to their group and they start in a conversation and I don't know what they're talking about because like

we have some distance and he's not clear like they have a conversation like a couple of minutes and then the new group people coming back and tell us that, okay, everything's settled.

That's it. Wow. Okay. So this is where you realize that Tongon's have juice. That's a real nice. He got a juice, but I don't know nothing about Tongan. Not yet. So, okay, that incident is settled.

Okay, they didn't come to battle a slow more. We just go to school normally. And then I, I think, a couple a day. And then my friends. That's the Chris Cousin was telling us that what we go to do after school. I say, I don't know. Go to your house.

Pay around first or whatever. And then he said, no, let's go up to the Dongwon Association. I said, what's Dongon Association? That's the first time I heard that. He said, oh, he's my cousin. He's the president of the association. So I asked him, is that Chris? He said, no, no, no, not Chris.

Chris, biggest brother, the oldest brother. So I say, okay, we have to go up there and say thank you anyway because he's the one who actually helped us, right? So after school, we went up to the Dongwon Association. When I first went up, it's a big, like, I think it's like 1500 square feet, something like that. A big place. That's a big place, especially in Chinatown. That's a huge, that's a mansion.

The whole second floor. Wow. The whole second floor. So that means there's money coming in? Yeah, they have an office, they have a big empty area, a lot of gambling table. They have a bedroom, they have a bathroom. Where was the headquarters? Can you tell us the address?

Do you remember? What? 27 Division Street. Division Street. Okay. I haven't heard of Division. You never heard that? No.

East Broadway. Okay. All right. So it's right in the thick of it. Yes, of course. Eastportway division. Okay. Division is a small, it's a very small and short street.

But, okay, the associations over there. So when we first went out, I saw a lot of people, at least like 50 or 60 people over there, maybe more than that. Most of the people are around a mid-age. Middle-age? Yeah. After we went up and then my friends bring me to the office, bring me inside the office, and then that's a guy sitting in the office.

a guy sitting in the office and then he introduced us this cliff. So that's the first time no cliff and he's the dragonhead. Okay, but honestly at that time he never told us to join a gang. He just Chris and after my friend introduced and Chris just saying that, oh okay okay you guys are his classmate, my friend's name's Michael. Michael is Cliff Cousin So Chris saying that

You guys are Michael's Classmate Yeah, you can handle us here Do whatever you want here Right And you guys are all speaking Mandarin Or excuse me Cantonese Okay

Yes And that's the first time I hand out in the association And then After that time Like almost every day After school We ran up there

Handout Painting around And after like A wheat or so and then Kriv asking, do you guys like to play soccer? I say, yeah, why not? And he said, because he has a soccer team.

A kind of, you know, they have a competition every year, like a couple of time competition with their other group. So they need a new member to join in the soccer team. So we join the soccer team. All fours join the soccer team. And then we start to practice.

paying soccer every day. And with the soccer teams, people are. That time I don't know they are Tongan gangster. Okay? With the gangster, you can say that. And we start, you know, play together, we practice together, paying soccer. And after, you know, after practice, we have dinner together.

And they always treat us dinner right at Diversion Street. And sometimes we don't need a practice. We go to movie diator or bowling eddies. We go like almost everywhere together. Yeah. But no trouble at that time. Right. No trouble.

Never start of trouble. And they're paying for everything. I know they don't have to pay. After the way, I know that. They don't have to pay. Wow. They get free bowling. Yeah.

Wow. All that. Yeah. Because after that, I get that too. Right. Yeah. You don't have to play. Free movies.

Mm-hmm. Were they property owners, too, the Tongon? Like, did they own different buildings? buildings. Because at that time, property in New York is cheap. As I remember, for the association properties, it's only turned on the building

that building over there. No other property. Do you know, did the gangsters eventually start becoming landlords? Because I don't want to get ahead of ourselves because we're going to get into the 80s when they started to become the big heroin traffickers. Did they ever invest their money in buildings?

and like hang on to them? Because if they had them now, they'd be billionaires. You mean the association or you mean the individual gangster? Both, either one. For the individual gangster, of course, yeah, I bought a house too, same thing. Right. But it's not going to that long. Right.

Always something happened and you lose your house, you lose your car or whatever. And for the association, not talking. on, maybe somebody else, yeah, they have a different kind of property, but after the 90, the China, people from China start investing property in the United States, and they sold, they almost sold 80% of the property to the people in China. Right. To the Chinese. Right.

Who now they own half the country. They own all the real estate now. I know they own like, rose the hotel. Okay, the biggest one, this four-season hotel, Manhattan, they all own by China. Wow. Well, they had to make a law in Vancouver, B.C. Mm-hmm. So many Chinese people in China were buying property there and just leaving it.

It was causing the prices to go up. They had to make a law. Same thing right here. If you don't live here, you can only buy so much property. Same thing right here. I know a building, a little condo building. It's a very high-class condo building. They sold like $1,200.

square feet, that's pretty high price. Oh, 1,200 a square feet, yeah. Influshing. Flushing Queens, crazy. Oh, it's all Chinese out there. The whole building is like, I think it's like 14 or 154. They all owned by China people. Yeah, yeah, who are barely even there probably.

But now it's like 80% is empty. Yeah, exactly. And they don't want to sell out. They just want to keep it. Exactly. I don't know why. I don't know what they're thinking. They're going to get their money.

Well, because they live in communist China. The government can take your money. Before, and they first bought this kind of house or a condo or whatever, they want their son or daughter to come to here, go to school, and they have the place to stay. The first idea is for this. But now it's hard to get a visa, even a student visa. It's not like before, before they just pay like 30 grand.

They don't have to take the tax or whatever. They just pay money. They have money, they just pay, they got here. Yeah. But not anymore. Yeah. Thanks, COVID. So they still got the apartment here.

They still got the house here, but nobody lived there. Right. Yeah. I know New York is not the worst place. LA is the worst. Yeah. A lot of, you know, the... Oh, I live by Beverly Hills.

Beverly Hills. Saudi Arabia and China own half of that city. Yeah, that's what I heard. Mansions. That's why her. And nobody's home. Yeah. Like, ever.

It's empty. They're just parking their money. It's just, it's an unbeatable investment property in California in New York. So they just put their money there. Yeah. Now the government over there can't take it. Yep. So tell us about, let's move forward.

Tell us about, tell us about how you got involved in criminal activity. Okay. With the Tongon. Okay. After we joined the soccer team and then we are handing out together every day. And then one day, we go to practice the soccer Lawmody

but one of my classmates he didn't show up he didn't go to school he didn't show up that day no he did go to school he did go to school but he didn't show up to the soccer practice and after the soccer process

we went back to the Tonguehwong Association and then I asked everybody to say do you see do you see my classmate? Nobody say a word. No, we didn't see him. We didn't see him. So I was curious.

Me and other two, three guys, and went to his house, tried to look for him, right? And his parents saying that, no, he went to school and didn't come back. So first thought I have, like, must be something happened. Okay, because he's in the school. I remember he's in the school. but afterwards nobody saw him. Nobody said, where he go?

He just disappeared. So we went back to the Tonga Association and then asked Cliff, what happened? Because one guy's missing. So Chris said, he'd go to find out. You guys just here and wait.

Any news, he would let us know. So we're handing out, you know, associations and waiting and waiting until nighttime. Like, I think it's like eight or nine o'clock. And then Cliff come by and saying that, yeah, we find your classmates. His body is in the Fleshing Metal Park. Where? Fleshing Meadow Park.

Fleshing Meadow Park. Way out in Queens. Yeah. Dead. He got shot right on the head. Like assassination execution style. Yeah. Wow.

How do they find his body? How do they know he was there? Maybe somebody walking in the park and find a big garbage bag. Right. My friend who got killed, he's a fat guy. He's like, at that time, he's my age, but he's like 180 or 190. It's real fat. So his body, you can mention.

Okay, his body is a lot to move. How many garbage bag to hold his brother. And they found him. And then Cliff tell us that, like, yeah, somebody to kill him. And we asked Cliff, what happened? why you got killed? Right? He's not a gangster.

He's just paying soccer every day. He's just a kid. He's your age. He's 13 years old. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. So, Kripp said,

because somebody don't like us. Don't like our team. So we ask him who. And then he says, the Five Dragon. So. And who were the Five Dragon? Yeah. And then.

asked him who's the fire dragon. Then he explained to us the situation in China at that time. He's controlled by Gold Shadow. Gold Shadow termitories on Mark Street, Bayer Street, Elizabeth Street. And the other side is controlling by Fire Dragon. Fire Dragons is controlling Pell Street.

Doyer Street, Bowdoir Street. That's all their territory. So we are asking, what happened here? Because we are in Eastport. division. So Krivacy, we control here. So I asked him, what's our game? What's the name for our game? And he said, Tongan, Tongan Association. So what was your fat friend doing to make these rivals want to kill him? They thought he's the one of the gang member. They thought he was a gang member.

Yeah. Because he played with the soccer team and hung out at the association. Yeah, with the Tongan members, you know, every day. They thought we belong to the Tongong. So that is real gangster shit though. So these gangs were willing to take it there, murdering a 13-year-old. Wow. Today's episode of the podcast is sponsored by HelloFresh. You guys know about them by now if you're a fan of the show. HelloFresh does all the shopping and meal planning for you.

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But after I find out that this one of the old member tell my friend to go to Pell Street because at that time there's an O-T-B

in Pell Street. O-T-B? OTP. Off-track betting. Yeah. He's one of the old member told my friend to go to Pell Street

to Bacting horse five ticket. And then he got killed in front of the OTP. Wow. Now he didn't get killed over there, but he got keep lap over there. And they brought him out to Queens to kill him.

They keep lap him inside a van. And then they killed him inside a van and told his body on a freshman mailbox. Wow. That's real serious stuff. Yeah. What happened after that? Is that when you joined?

Is that what you joined? Yeah. So, like, after that happened, because we are real close, we're like, brother. We are like real brother. Even close than my brother. Because we are every day all the time. Except sleep. That's it.

Yeah. So we are like so mad. And we didn't think anything. We just know we have to take the revenge. we have to get this guy we have to stop this thing we don't want to any other my friends got killed

so we asked Cliff what we're going to do so Chris saying that you're sure you want to do that he tells me that when the first beginning he said with you guys join the gang that's the only

two ways for final result first either do time in the jail second got killed about the enemy. Okay. He was saying that first. But, you know, how we're young.

At that time, it's only like 13, 14. And we don't care. So we just want to take the event. Okay, we join the gang. So we start joining the gang. Wow. And did they give you a gun? Yeah.

What did you carry around with you? At that time, I carried out of 38. And it was a pretty common for Chinese gangsters, young, teenage gangsters, to walk around with guns? At the entire, yeah. Wow. You have to. Did you ever get in shootouts?

Really? I cannot remember how many times. Oh, dude, in Chinatown, in those tiny little streets, it's like if you haven't been to Chinatown, it's a maze of tenement buildings, and the streets are like this wide, and there's millions, literally millions of people walking around, and you'd be getting in shootouts in those neighborhoods. Yeah. Wow. Like, a couple times when we step out on the association, because. After we joined again, after I joined the gang, I stopped, dropped school. I didn't go to school.

What did your parents? It's too dangerous for you to go to school. My parents don't know. How do they go to know? Before that then, the school is not going to load of eyes. My parents, oh, your kid didn't go to school. They don't care. The school don't care.

School don't care. Before bad then, they don't care. And your parents are working 12 hours a day in the factory. Yeah. So, um, I started. drop out of school and I start no I got

argument with my father and my father say you know my report cards bring home is like terrible every subject

it's like 45 and my father asked me what happened I say nah I don't want to go to school and

a lot of fight happened and you know blah blah and my father said no you have to go to school and then we get

argument and then I just left the house and didn't go back. At 14 years old? No, not 14, 13. 13 years old? Yeah. You're gone, left the house.

Yeah, left the house. And I went to the association and I tell the people over there, I say, I got argument with my father. I'm not going home. I'll go live here. Wow. And I let you live there?

Yeah, there's a lot of room, downstairs basement. Wow. Yeah, I can live there, downstairs. So I start living in the association. So when we start the war, And every time when we like going to the association or coming out from the association, and a lot of times we heard a fire, we had gunshot. Yeah.

Okay. So you guys are at war? Yeah. And it all started. It started from your friend getting killed? Okay. Because after my friends getting killed and the next day, after you got killed, the next day, we joined again officially. and then I give me a pistol and then give me some basic training for the pistol

and we start the wall. The first time I do the shooting, I was running down the Pell Street for their association. They have an association too, okay? Keep saying. The Five Dragon? Yeah, we are shooting in the association front door. The whole door is the door. Yeah, that's the first time I do the shooting.

Could you go down and see that? that building today? Is it still standing? Yeah, still standing. Wow. Not different door now. Not the old door. Yeah, they got a new door. Yeah, that's the first time I do the suit.

So you walked into the association and started shooting? Yeah, I replied out of guy, yeah. Wow. Two guys. Did you hit anyone? No. No. We just give them a message.

Right. And after that, they come to, I forgot. We come their place first. you try to burn the whole pace down. We do fire bomb. Wow. And after we do the fire bomb,

they do the fire bomb back to us. I still remember that night, we are like over more than 10 people in the association, we are socializing, we are talking each other, some people were just handing around over there. I was sitting in the office because that's a lifetime. There's no other members there already.

and we just hand out and then I seen in the office and I can see the bargain from the office so certainly I saw the bargain is like so bright

the what is bargaining what is bargandy what is the balcony I'm sorry the bargaining yeah yeah certainly I saw the bargain it's like

why is so bright now is what time is and I was like after after midnight it should be dark but I was, look out, he's like, wow, it's like sunshine over there. It's real bright. So I was talking to my street brother saying that, what happened?

Why so bright? And he used to look at over there, and then he got a same thought as mine. He's like, yeah, what happened? We go over there and check out, and then we try to, you know, when we walk over there and then we saw some fire bomb just throw in the bog and he. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh.

And what's the fire? What is a fire bomb? It's like a Molotov cocktail? Yeah. So how do you make one? You put gas, alcohol, gas mixed with alcohol, and some little rag. Okay, a glass bottle, you put half bottle of gas and alcohol. Okay?

Half bottle of air. Don't put all the way on the top. With low air, you start going to burn up. Right. Okay. And stuck some, you know, some paper on it and burn it. And that thing could burn a whole room, a whole association, like quickly. When the bomb drop, the glass go to break, and the inside alcohol and the gasoline will split.

So we'd be like, bong. The fire is like, like, pshu. Like in the movies? Yeah. Wow. So did you guys have to run out of there? Yep. And it burned down?

Burn out the whole room. Burgundy. Wow. Not the room, not inside. Wow. called the fire trap. You call the light one-one. So how did this war end?

And did people actually end up getting killed? More people? Yeah, a lot of people. Shot the death? Yeah, yeah, a lot. Are there any, I'm not asking you specifically, but do you remember any really, like, brazen murders? Like, do you remember how people ended up getting shot?

I know one of my closest brother, sweet brother, he got killed. step to that. And before he died, he was died in the Confucian Plaza. Confucian Passer is across the street from association. Deficion Street, Pell Street, white between inside this condominium building in Chinatown, Confucian Plaza. Is it still there, Confusion Plaza? Yes, still there.

And my friend was killed across the street. from the association. The street over there, he got stabbed to that. And then before he died, I was walking from my parents' house in the other side, walking up.

And I saw a lot of people, you know why? A lot of people stand over there and shirk over there. So I was curious. And then I went up and I saw my friends lying on the fall. And then I pushed out of the people.

I was going in. What happened? What happened? And at that time, he's still breathing. He said, he mentioned a name. Uh-da-da-da-da. Okay, the story.

And then I was yellow. Anybody called the cop. And nobody said nothing. And I wait like 10 minutes, something like that. And then the cops showed up. The cops said, what happened, what happened? And then I say, my friends got stabbed. And they called the ambulance.

The ambulance walking into the hospital. And then he died in the hospital. Did you guys ever get the guy who stabbed him? Not the exactly guy, but the guy who did this, He got wasted. After world. Okay. Yeah, after work.

He did time for this thing. It did a hard time. Right. Did people end up getting, people committed murders in this war? They ended up getting locked up? Yeah. Did some of them get away? Yeah.

Because there was no cameras back then. Yeah. A lot easier to get away with murder. Yeah. So how did it end? How did it end? No, how did the war end? Uh, where is Daredevil?

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No, no. No, I meant like how to particular war between the Tongon, the Five Dragon. How did it end? I can tell you that there's no nighttime enemy, never a nighttime enemy, all because of money. When you have a business going on with them, now they become your friend. Of course, of course. All right.

So let's talk about that. Now we're into the 80s. How are you making money for the association and for yourself? Okay. Like, tell us about the criminal, because this is what we do here on the podcast. We get into economy. I love the details. Okay.

How did those associations make illegal money? For the association, how they're going to make the money? Actually, I don't know. Because that's their problem. It's not a problem. Okay. We just lived there. And for us, yeah, when we first joined again, we got those money, source,

the world income, nothing. But for food, for entertainment, like almost everything is free. We don't have to pay anything. But there's no money in your pocket. You need money for a girl. Okay? So I was the first one start to get protection money from the store. So you started getting protection money, extorting businesses.

At that time, I asked Kirtf, because I know the old member, the Tongan, the old member, they have salary from the gambling house, maybe from the, from the, or at beginning, they don't have a massage parlor. Afterward, they have a massage partner. They have money from the gambling house, or maybe they have their own money, so come from, and we don't know. But for the new member like us, we don't got nothing. We've got no salary We don't got no income So I was asked

Chris Can Because I know they had The Gold Sharder and the fire drink They have the protection money From the restaurant The store Everything right

So I asked Chris Can we get the protection money From the store downstairs Or East Broadway Whatever Because I have to get He's You know

He say okay And then I go downstairs Right And he said Okay but no threat. You cannot beat the owner. You cannot just speed nicely, see what they ask,

see what they come back. And then I'm the first one who went down there and go one by one to the store, every store. And when I go, I say that, okay, I mention my name, and then I say I'm from Monmouth Association, whatever, and this street here is our termitory and you have a business here and you need protection

we are not asking a lot we're just asking like a little can you help us out and most of the stores say yes and how much were they paying you a week depend how big your store is and then depend how restaurant pays the most

if you have a grocery store or barbershop. Let's say they pay like $100 of weed. Yeah, and these are all cash businesses. Yeah, all cash. So what kind of protection were you offering them? And what kind of threats were you saying could come from if they didn't have your protection? Because if I'm a store owner, I say, well, I need protection from what? I got the police, right?

What would you say? I would say the protection from the other group to come down and get money from you. That's the main show. Right. That's the main thing. Because with, they didn't pay us a lot of different group, maybe this Gold Shardo groups are saying that like A group from Gold Shado, come down and get money from you, next hour, B group from Gold Shado, get money from you. So you want to do that? You just want to pay one.

guy, just me. Now you're paying me and everybody's gone, only me. Nobody comes from our group, nobody comes from their group to get money from you. So most of the owners, they say yes. Yeah, yeah, we wouldn't make sense. And that's how I first get income from the street. But afterward, like, after when we like grow a lot of people and they knew who's the leader and they knew who we are.

And if they open the business on our territory, they will go up to the association and ask us how much I should pay you. I have to open the business down there. I don't have to go down there and ask them. Wow. Yeah, afterwards, I don't have to go down. So you're starting to get a reputation.

They know. They just come up association saying that. I just went to a store, you know, whatever East Broadway, Division Street. I go to open a hardware store, how much I have to pay you for the protection. They would come up and ask me. So it was a known thing.

amongst the Chinese businesses back then. You have to pay protection to whoever gang you're operating whose territory you're operating on. Wow. Some of the other gang, they didn't say, they didn't mention his protection money. They mentioned

it's like members' fee. And they make a certificate from, let's say, from Gochado. Goldshado is on-earned association. They have a certificate. And handing up here saying on the association member right and then nobody come here and get

who has so money except honor this was like organized extortion yeah so it was a lot like how the early italian neighborhoods were you know it was very common for a deli owner to pay up every week you know it was not a lot of it wasn't looked at as criminal activity it was just looked at as the way things were yeah in the community yeah what other criminal activity were the chinese gangs into back in the 80s besides of drugs. I'm going to get into that later. Not yet. Not yet. Drug is like the end of 80. What are they doing? Are selling fireworks?

Selling fireworks? Yeah, every July 4, Chinese New Year. Massage parlors? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. At that time, at my time, beginning, there's no massage parlor in China. Okay. No. Until middle of 80. Middle of 80. That's when, that's when they started setting up massage parlors, which were prostitution houses, basically. Yes. Okay. So now, so now and now, now. You have Chinese pimps essentially or managers, right?

They have agents. Before when they start up this kind of massage business, they have agents from Manitia or from China or from Taiwan. They have girls coming in every single month and they will come to you, ask you, you want, you want to change your girl every month, you want to change your girl, you know, whatever, different kind of country. and they keep you all the girl. Just keep rotating the girls. You don't have to get headache with your worker. Right.

You always have a worker. And they would pay the agent, whatever the commission was. So you didn't have to pay them anything. Yeah. That's how when they first start. Wow. Okay. If the girl come here without an agent,

right. No massage owner, massage house owner will take her. Without an agent? Yeah, without an agent. Right, right. She must have her agent first. It's smart because it keeps out the cops, the feds. So did the Tongaun eventually get into owning massage parlors?

We have the first massage parlor in China. On the upstairs, Donggan Association. We had the first one. And they opened up. And now were these full prostitution houses or just like massage, like... The first massage house we have is regular massage. No dirty stuff. No dirty stuff.

Yeah, low happy end. Okay. When did we get into happy ending? After what? You can say after the agent showed up. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Yeah, the agent saw up, I have girls, but from where. They can do the, you know, happy ending, whatever.

So you want to open a new massage powder for that? Because we don't want to open a, you know, hallhouse upstairs association. Right, of course. Bad, that's look bad, right? So we open another place. Right. You know, Manhattan, uptime, maybe mid-time. Wow.

And how would you guys advertise? This is before the Internet. So how in the 80s, if you had a whorehouse, a brothel, how did you advertise to customers? On the newspaper, Chinese newspaper. Right. It makes sense, right. The back of the newspaper.

Bad damn Chinese newspaper, right? A whole ficking page. Right. It's a massage parter. Just just little square advertisements. whole page. And there were nobody in the cops could read Chinese. They do.

Well, they figured it out. Yeah, they brought a few people in. They have a, they have bought, put all the newspaper in. But whatever, that's the nature of those things, right? Yeah. So that's how you'd advertise. And do you think those were the hottest brothels, like the busiest brothels out of any ethnicity back then?

Was the Chinese? Nah, the business brawls is the gambling house. Still gambling. Still gambling. Yeah. The biggest business. So you've got your business, your massage parlors, massage parlors that are also whorehouses, and you've got your fireworks, and you've got your extortion.

Yeah, and then open a nightclub. Nightclub? Yeah, Klauqi. I imagine a lot of these gangsters opened legitimate businesses too, right, to move their money through. Okay, heroin. So the late 70s, early 80s, the Italian mafia, who was the supplier. They were the wholesaler bringing the dope over from Europe. They get wiped out by the feds.

The Chinese gangs step up and fill that void. Tell us about how the gangs... How is the evidence from China to get in here? That's right. And how were the gangs here involved in it? Okay. You know what's triad in Hong Kong? No, I've heard, but tell us for people that don't know about the Asian triad.

Okay. The gangster in Hong Kong. Hong Kong, just like New York, they have a different group, different name. They have an all in one big name called Triad. And it's always like couples, like very famous team and they control like all the heralding business, all the entertainment business, like every group got one kind of Egypt business they control with. And this is over there.

Yeah, it's over there. It's over there in Hong Kong. So how do your people start doing this kind of thing? Because people from their group in Hong Kong, they come here to start talking to the leader, talking to the dragon head, and telling them, we have this kind of stuff, we can give it to you first. After you sell it, we spit the money.

And you don't have to lay out any money. They just give you first. And at that time, for one kilo a hebron, let's say, a one U.S. dollar, I want 10 grand. Wholesale? That's what they would. And you could sell that on the street for 200,000.

We don't sell it in the street. We do it wholesale too. Right. Okay, great. So you guys became the wholesalers. Yeah. How much could you, how much could you turn around and sell a wholesale?

kilo for? Right here? Yeah, in New York. 150. Sometimes 150, sometimes 180. So you get a kilo for 10 and sell it for 180? Yeah. Wow.

You know how much for cooking back to Hong Kong? How much? How much you getting cooking right here at one kilo? Now? Back then, back then in the 80s, maybe like 30. 20 something. Yeah, actually cheaper than that, probably 15, 20, yeah. You know how much as ever in Hong Kong?

How much? $550. Dollars? Hong Kong dollar. Hong Kong dollar 550 is like almost 100 grand. So did they start moving cocaine to Hong Kong? Wow, I never knew that. This is a scoop.

You did that? How would you, how much did you move? Like every time, a couple of a kilo. How would you get it over there? I have people. Well, tell. Because that time I'm already. But how did you get it over there, though?

How did they get it over there? Before it's easy. Just like on airplanes. You just strike. Yeah, I have some girls member or I have some kid, girl's friend, and they pretend that they're pregnant. They just put it right here and then walk into it. Before x-ray don't think, you can't tell.

I don't know why. That's what? So you would buy Coke from like Dominican? I remember one time there's a girl, that's a girl bring 10 kilos and a small suitcase. Inside 10 kilos, you just bring you to Hong Kong. Yeah. And you call me.

I got here. Then open the suitcase like all over there. That's a million bucks. Yeah. You made that? Yeah. Jimmy, I didn't know you were a baller. So you were killing it.

No, I mentioned before I was in Hong Kong for a long time. I always go back and fall, back and forth before that. The longest time I stayed in Hong Kong for two years. But I'm saying you were rich. You were making real money. Yeah, but I expend all those money in Hong Kong. Wow. Every night's, every day, every night club.

I bought a Ferrari. I bought a house. And I spent all the money. So you would buy Coke here for 15 grand and buy 10 kilos? No, 20-something grand. 20? I think 20, 25, 25, 28, something like that. Wow.

But then you make, I mean, off of one brick, $70,000. Four times. Four times. Wow. Four times five. Wow. So that's why so many people do drugs. That's right.

I didn't know that many people did Coke. I didn't know that many, a lot of people do folk in China? Now, in China, I'm talking about Hong Kong, not China. Right, right, right. With in China. Yeah. One grand a Coke. You know how much is it?

How much? $1,500. Crazy. China money. Crazy. It's like $250 for a dollar. A grand. Yeah, yeah, one gram.

And it's not a good stuff too. Right, right. So you can get a kilo and step on it a bunch, stretch it. It's like Australia. It's like it's really expensive. Were a lot of people back in the 80s when you were active in China, in Hong Kong, where a lot of people doing Coke? When the time I was in Hong Kong, all my customer is, you know, high level, high level people.

Gangster. No, not gangster. movie star, doctor, lawyer. All professional. You sell to Bruce Lee? Sorry. He died already. He died already.

Wow. Oh, so I thought you were selling wholesale to the triads over there? No. Okay. Okay. So getting back now. No. I got connection after I joined the triad, you know.

Right. Okay. And so I got connection. So you... And every time I get the stuff, I will call my people. like inside the the d'a-lo in Hong Kong

and oh, I got a couple of kilos with this, you got anyone wants it and then he would make a connection and he would let me know. Wow. And just give it out like this. So you were considered you were a Tongan in New York

but in Hong Kong you were a triad. Yeah, in Hong Kong and Sun Yi-on. How? Sun-I-an. What does that mean? That's the bigger triads in Hong Kong. Asian, you can say.

The biggest triad in Asian. Wow. Wow. So you were just a made guy? For this? Yeah, yeah, you can say that. Now, did you move heroin for the Tongones in New York? No.

No? Not for Tongone. Okay. No. But for yourself? For myself, but it's not even for myself, for my, you know, those kids who follow me. Yeah. They have to live too.

So I get some stuff for them. They sell it to whatever. I don't care. Right. Just make their own money. So were all the gangs pretty much in, involved in heroin in the 80s? At that time?

Yeah. I can say 80%. Wow. And their customers were Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Blacks. Everybody. Italian and everybody.

So you guys were selling to the Italians. Yeah, I went to Howard Beach. Howard Beach, yeah. A piece of shop. A nice pizza shop. Wow. The bucket over there is not a piece of flour, you think.

All right. That's heroin. And that's China white heroin. Yeah. Tell us about China white heroin. Like that was all you heard about in rap, East Coast rap back in the day, was China White. Because what makes that different than the heroin now and the heroin like on the West Coast

or Mexican heroin, as we say? China Right is only a brand. It's a brand. Because Thailand, you know, the most big shot in Thailand at that time called, I forgot his name. He got west of the Kingpin. The Kingpin. Yeah. He got Western and then, I forgot his name.

It's too long ago. First, his heroin don't have a stamp for China White. Okay, China White is like two patent. And inside is a circle stamp. Left and right got two patent. Right, right. And inside say China White like this. And who created that stamp is a guy from in Hong Kong.

I forgot his name either. he get, first he got stuff from this kingpin in Thailand. And then he makes his own stand. Right. And then people who bought stuff from him, they like it. They say, oh, he's real good because he didn't make cut with it. You know, it's all pale. So after, like, after a while he got reputation for him and his brand.

Right. So all the other people, all the other drug dealer, then they know China White is the good brand. So you want to deal with him, the first thing he will ask, what you got? You have China White? That's the first thing they asked. So you will get the China Way.

So China White was just heroin from Thailand. Yeah. But branded as Chinese heroin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Okay, so that was powder heroin that you could either smoke or cook up or snort. and it came from, right, and it came from Southeast Asia. Yes.

Thailand, Burma, wherever. Yes, right. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. And how much heroin did you see at a time? Did you ever see a big quantities? Yeah, I've been in Thailand before, yeah. Oh, you've been to Thailand? Yeah, in Thailand, they have a market.

It's like a supermarket. Like a whole heroin supermarket. A village. You walk inside the village, they just two on the ground. heroin, Marana, whatever. They just use the old-freshing

wave, put it over there and wave it oh, you want to pound? Okay. Wow. Like in the movies? Bad damn, okay.

So did you go there to buy heroin? No, no. I go there with one of the Daily in Hong Kong. He said, you never see this before. I bought something you never see before. So he brought me over there in Thailand.

Wow. Dude, that is so crazy. When we first entering the village, I already saw a Thai, Thailand's people holding a M16 in front of the gay. And then when we walk by the- In front of the gay? Like the village.

Oh, the gate. Sorry. The entry in the village, they have a big gay. Okay. I didn't know that. They don't let anybody go in. Right. As long you know somebody.

Yeah. Okay. So after we entering, uh, uh, uh, there's a parking, empty space for parking. and then we park the car, we walk inside Ferdaddam, and then it's like a market. It's like a street fair.

Wow. And it's just, just like a street fair. Just dedicated to selling drugs. Yeah. Wow. Because I was curious, man, what's they selling?

Because now I know, okay, like Marijuana, fresh. Right. You know what's that, the same thing like grass. Okay, you pick up on the park, same thing, right? You know what's this? Yeah.

So I asked my, my dialogue. oh, the Da-Law, you know, Hong Kong, right? The guy who bought me over there and said, what's this? They said, Marijuana. I said, what, Marijuana's for what? 500 or 600, I forgot. Thailand's money, it's like a couple of dollars. Right.

You can get a whole kilo for like five bucks. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. Now, did no part of you feel like, okay, I need to start buying wholesale heroin and bringing it over to the U.S.? Somebody already doing that. Right.

You didn't want to do that, though? Too much risk? Yeah. Too much you wish. A lot of risk. Okay, so now at your height, you're this big-time drug dealer. I mean, you're making a lot of money. You're going back and forth to Hong Kong.

What happened to the gangs in like the late 80s? And I guess how did it end? How did the end? The Fed take over. The feds take over. Yeah. Okay. So for the heroin specifically, or was it Rico's?

Everything. Okay. Murder. Restortion, gambling joy, massage product. They're charging for RICO. For the RICO. For the RICO conspiracy. Right.

And is that how you went down? Did you get caught up in the RICO with them? Before the Fed come down, I already stopped. Stop everything. I knew. You knew it was going to end? Somebody tell me already. Somebody tell me you better stop.

You don't stop? You will go in. Who told you? That's secret. Okay. Can we talk about it on the Patreon? Can we talk about it on the bonus episode, the Patreon episode? Can we can you tell us on the bonus?

Okay. You think about it, okay? Okay. Wow, that's a scoop. So you had it inside. Yeah, yeah. Did any of the, during the height, when you guys were getting that drug money in the 80s, that heroin money, the Coke money, you know, these Chinese gangs are powerful now.

Did you guys use to pay off cops? Cop always got pay off before this. Always got. paid off. Always got paid off. To do what? Tell you if the feds were coming. To do just to arrest the kid on the street. Right, right, right, right. The gambling house, the massage parlor, they have salary for the cop. Wow. Yeah. Even all the way back to the days when it was just that, just gambling. Yeah. They have salary every week. Every week. Did did the salary go up when the drugs came in? Did you guys have to start paying more? You must have, right?

When the time everybody doing joy, and I'm not in the street no more. I'm out, almost out. Like, like underworld. They won't see me anymore. I'm not going to hand out in the street, you know, whatever. Were you still hanging out of the clubs? Like the associations? No.

I don't go up there no more. Paying off the cop for this? No. I never did. You never paid off the cops. Okay. Before we get out of here, when you said that, like, you would clean, the streets of the prostitutes, like the black prostitutes.

Did, do you feel like you guys kept your neighborhoods, even though everybody's now like real criminals? Did you guys keep Chinatown clean and respectable? Even through all that. Wow. You can ask the business owner now in Chinatown. Yeah. Are there still people that remember the gangs?

Yeah. Yeah. When you shooting video in Chinatown, they saw us, they come out. Oh, Jimmy, Jimmy, what's up? Wow. That's amazing. They like us. Because when we there, it's nothing happens.

It's not like now. People go into a grocery and take something, just walk out. They steal, yeah, the shoplifting. Not still. Now they're not sharp-limping. They just talk. They just take and walk out. Yeah. Now, before.

That would never happen. Never happen. You go do this thing. You got killed in China. Wow. Because we have, like, we have people to watch a street, actually trend, like, That's a not 24 hour, 12 hour.

Yeah. Let's say turn out. Every corner, every, like, a couple store away distant. We got people standing over there. Everybody carry a gun. And if they saw somebody fucking around, they would go shoot them. Yeah. Wow.

But, and that would send a message. Yeah. You don't steal in Chinatown. Wow. Wow. So, and do you feel like, so to them it was worth it? Even though the Tongon's now have massage parlors and brothels. the prostitutes aren't on the street, harassing, you know.

The pen, you know, how's the pen? Right. Yeah. Right. It doesn't, even though you guys still have these illegal businesses, the streets are clean and ordinary people can live. Right. And you guys didn't sell retail drugs, it sounds like.

You guys didn't open up crack houses, things like that. No, no, no, no. We don't do that. This is why the Chinese are so good at it because you guys made money and you were quiet. We don't do that. It's not worth it. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.

Like, you let more people know this kind of business, man, it's not an ego. He's not an ego business. Right. It's not like those people standing in a street corner selling drug. Right. Yeah, not like that. So it sounds like the shootings and the gang wars actually kind of stopped or dropped off once the drug money came in.

Yeah. Do you know how rare that is? In every other culture, every other country, when people start making a ton of money from drugs, they start killing each other. They start killing each other. They start killing each other. But the Chinese, it's the opposite. They're like, guys, we're all getting money.

You know, at that time, like, everybody's making money. Everybody got money. So we go like club every night. Yeah. I always bump me into other group. Fire dragon, Gold Shadow, White Tiger, Fee Amazing. We sit together and drink. Bottles on everybody.

Yeah. We're getting money. This day, today, today, he's going to trade. Next day, he goes to trade. Next day, he goes to trade. Right. Okay. And we never get argument.

Even though, like, sometimes that happened before. Sometimes, I mean, like, middle of drinking in the light club, we hand out in the light club, and then my, our phone's wing and saying that, oh, blah, blah, blah, got fight against the Ego Shado. Oh, they, they get arguments in the private party, in a private party. They start to, you know, they start to fight each other.

And one of the guys called me, and, you know, ask me what they should do or they should, you know, get the gun. I say, no, wait. I don't even have to turn off my phone. I just ask the guy across, hey, go shadow. Your guy's fighting with my guy. Make a call now.

Right. And they just make a call. Yeah, you guys stop. Squash it. Separate. Yeah. Right. Because now you guys are the OGs.

You guys and all the younger kids have to listen to you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So a lot of times happen. Yeah. Yeah, they start the fight and they call us, and then we just make a phone call and stop all, everything.

So you got out of the game before the big federal RICO case came down on the gangs. Did that RICO wipe the gangs out? Yeah. And they never returned to Chinatown? No, they can. Okay. So, and people ended up getting locked up for a lot of time? Yeah.

What year was that? I think it's 90, the end of 92, 93. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. So, and then where have you been and what have you done since then? What did you do afterwards? Find a decent job working. The first job I got is a security guard working in the East Bois.

Really? My own territory. Wow. Your old territory? Yeah, with a uniform. Wow. And I joined the NYPD auxiliary. You became a cop?

How long did you serve on the force? No. What's auxiliary mean? Oxir. Oxyrio police means not a police. No. A volunteer police. You became a volunteer police.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Because I want to clean my breath on. Right. Yeah. Oh, clean your record up? Yeah. So you had a record?

Not really. I have a lot of West report. Right. But I don't know. You didn't do any real time? I don't have any, you know, conviction. Okay. So you never did any real time?

I got West a lot of time. But every time I beat the case. Even murder case, a Dawson. You been a murder case? Yeah, I'd be a murder case. Tell us. Please tell us how you beat a murder case. Not by here.

Not very many people get to say that. I beat a murder case. Wow. What year? Eighty-seven. Wow. I was inside of two years doing the trial. In the tombs?

Yeah. In the Chinatown. I was in Warkas Island for one year in Connecticut, Stanford for another year. Oh, shit. Okay, we're going to talk about that on the bonus episode. Wow. That's wild. And you beat an extortion case?

I paid a lot of case. I attempted murder. I beat a lot of case. Wow. You just had a good lawyer? I'm lucky. Yeah, you're lucky too. I'm lucky.

I got a good lawyer and I got good kid. Good one. Because nobody snitch. Right, right. It doesn't seem like there was a lot of snitching happening back then. How did the feds eventually take the gangs down, though? It must have had somebody talking. Okay.

The way they do is different than our PD. the fat's always like up west the small body the street buddy and then like try to confess them saying that like you better say

who's your dadlo and what your structure is how you guys do the draw whatever if you you refuse that you go do lifetime in the jail or whatever and those kids

It's only like 14, 15, they scare. Yeah. Okay, so they start to, you know, open their mouth. Right. And after they open their mouth, the fact got the file. Yeah. They opened another case for another guy. So step by step, they took the whole group.

I bet it took them years, though. Years to take you guys down. No, I think they, over two years. Yeah. Were there any, like, undercover agents that became Chinese guys, that became part of the gangs? Yeah. Really?

A lot. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's fascinating. Do you know anybody from back then that's gotten out of prison? Do you still know people from that era? I know you know Michael, obviously. You're a friend that you do the channel with. For those people who got arrested at that time, they...

I think most of the people got already. Yeah. Yeah. So nobody ended up doing life. Not like the crack dealers, like the black crack dealers. Life. No. not my group.

Not even the, even Krip. Kriv got three life sentence. Oh, right, because he's the leader of, he's the leader. But he got out. How did he get out? He got cancer. Oh, so they gave him a compassionate. And then they just kicked him out.

They gave him a compassionate release. Yeah, he passed away two years ago. Oh. At least he got to get out though before he died. He got out after two years and then he passed away. Wow. He still, he got two years outside time. Yeah.

Better than nothing. But he got three years, life sense. Three life sense. Three life sense. sent him. Wow. Wow. They still kicked him out. Still kicked him out. Yeah. Because they know they have to put more money for him for the treatment. Right.

They don't want to do that. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I know a couple of people not only him. I don't like one, two, three, four, four people. They catch cancer. They got life sentence. They give him up. Wow. That's a way to get out of prison then. Hope you get cancer. I don't know why.

You got to keep drinking that sugar, that processed sugar if you get a life sentence, you know? Hopefully you catch the big one and they kick you out. Chris and the only guy, I know another three guys, they're same thing. Yeah. But they after they get out like one or two years old,

yeah, they pass away. Wow. How was Chinatown different now? Oh, much different. How? Why? Chinatown don't look like a Chinatown right now. For my bad damn compared now.

Okay, my, the apartment I live in, when I first come to the United States, The rent, a studio, a little studio, the rent is $200. $200 a month. Yeah, $78. My parents still live there. You're kidding me.

For $240. Oh my God. They're living, okay, for people... 42 year later. To pay $240. You can't even get a homeless shelter bed in New York for $240. Yeah. But the Licks apartment moved out.

Yeah. And then now it's a... But the last time I went up to my father's house and I bumped in a five American girl, leaving the legs to my father's house. I asked them, how much you pay? $2,000. Easily for a studio. Studio.

I bet there's studios in Chinatown now. Like, and those Chinatown studios, they're like, what, 400 square feet? Yeah, tiny. It's a tiny little kitchen. I still remember my father's house is $375. 375 square feet. That's barely bigger than a jail cell. The bathtub.

Yeah. It's inside the kitchen. Yeah. Exactly. These are real tenets. You never saw an apartment before, like this. When I first go up, I say, what's this? I asked my father, what's this? What's this doing here in the kitchen?

That's the bathtub. Dude, Jimmy, you got to go do an episode for your channel in your old apartment. That's insane, dude. But the shit like that now, probably more than that. People probably spend $3,000 a month. I asked those girls. I said, why, why do you pay $2,000 for a studio like this? There's only 300 and something square feet.

Yeah, but we're in New York. It's hip. It's a great location. Yeah. Save a lot of, you know, time for work or school. And they only pay like $400 each person. Fuck. But still.

They're living, the rich white girls are living like Chinese immigrants just so they can have good dim sun down the street, you know? They don't have to drive. They don't have to think about parking space. Now, a lot of, are there any Chinese people from your generation that still live in China? Yeah. Right. Did a lot of people...

The old generation people, when they first come to the United States, when they first living in a Chinatown, they don't want to move out. A lot of times, a couple of times, I tell my parents move to, move, move, come with me. They don't want to. Wow. They don't want to... Because they got used to it. They don't speak English.

They just in China, they can speak Cantonese anywhere, by anything anywhere. Did they ever learn English? No, I don't think so. Wow. But there's still a lot of Chinese people. down there. So they can just operate. So when you go down to China Town, the Chinese people you saw right now is always the old generation. Right. You see the young generation over there?

No. There's no young Chinese. Same in San Francisco. Sam Francisco. Because they get money and they move out. They move to Queens. They move to Jersey, wherever. So that's right. The old generation, how they go to that's? After 10 or like 20 years, 20 years, the most 20 year. Yeah. After they pass, way, no more China. No more Chinatown. Yep.

That's why I say, Longer Chinatown. Chinese, the Chinese are keeping New York. The Jews, the Orthodox Jews, and the Chinese are what keep New York City from becoming like Soho. Just all white people that are transplants, they come here and they have tech jobs.

Even though my parents, the place I parents live, Alge Street. I don't know you heard that about. Elda Street. Before, Eldridge Street is like, at them, it's like the stores always owned by Jewish people. Right. Now, it's like Soho. It's like Soho. Friday, Saturday, there's a whole street.

It's an open street. People carrying a beer bottle. Drinking on the street. It's like Soho. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. It's a lot of different.

Wow. Amazing, amazing interview. Jimmy, tell the fans where they can find you and your channel, your YouTube channel. Oh, okay. Which I cannot wait. to watch. I've just had a very busy week, okay? Okay. My channel is on YouTube, Chinatown Gang Story.

You can contact us, do the YouTube Chinatown Gang Story, and please subscribe. Yes, yes, go subscribe. Chinatown gang stories. You got to go do those videos in Chinatown. Yeah, I have a couple of episodes inside, like, like, from the beginning, the whole story. And I have a couple of episodes with Cantonese speaking. And so you like it. Yeah, that's a great market.

That's a great market. You know, there's a lot of Chinese people, as we know. So, and then do you plan on retiring to China? Like, do you have any connection to... I have connection to China, but I never think of retiring in China. Right, no, it's not a good time. For China, you know, I just tell you, I bet and for a lot of time. For travel, for visit, it's good.

Yeah. but for living there you don't like it It's like L.A. You don't like it? That's how Los Angeles is. Just visit. For fun, a couple of months.

Yes, you have a lot of entertainment. Right. But not for long-term leave there. Yeah, now they're in trouble. Yeah. China's in trouble. Yeah. But amazing.

We're going to switch over to the bonus episode. Now get a quick half an hour episode. Jimmy, big head. Your head's not so big. You know? It's perfect, I'd say. Maybe my hair.

I don't know. You've got great hair. Okay, cool. We will see you guys later. Thanks again. All right, brother.