The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Secrets Of A Hells Angels Gang Leader: A Rare Glimpse Inside The World's Most INFAMOUS Outlaw Empire

Episode Date: September 1, 2024

George Christie, a long-time member and former chapter president of the Hells Angels in Ventura, California, discusses his experiences with the club, including surviving rival clubs, internal beef, and numerous federal indictments. George debates whether the Hells Angels are a criminal organization or just a motorcycle club with some problematic members. He discusses internal power struggles within the Hells Angels, particularly with Sunny Barger, and reflects on the challenges law enforcement faces in prosecuting the gang due to its complex structure and autonomous operations. Now retired, Christie has distanced himself from the club and reflects on his past, emphasizing that while the Hells Angels engaged in criminal acts, they also sought to maintain a certain code and order within their ranks. Go Support George! Website: https://www.georgechristie.com/ YouTube: @GeorgeGusChristie Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/georgechristie IG: https://www.instagram.com/georgechristiejr/ This Episode Is #Sponsored By PrizePicks! Download the app today and use CONNECT for a first deposit match up to $100! Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A lot of criminals on the Hells Angels. Do I consider myself a criminal? No, I consider myself an outlaw. This guy is asking me permission to go blow these guys up that we're fighting. My first thought was, you don't need my permission. We're fighting with these guys already. George Christie is the most infamous member of the Hells Angels motorcycle gang in the history of the organization.

He joined the club in the mid-1970s and served as chapter president for the H.A. in his hometown of Ventura, California for over 30 years. In a lifetime living as an owl, law, Georgia's survived assassination attempts, gunfights with rival motorcycle gangs, and numerous federal indictments by aggressive U.S. attorneys looking to put him away for life. In this interview, he exposes all, including why he was eventually ousted from the Hells Angels organization and the active contract that was placed on his head in the aftermath. Furthermore, he finally answers the very basic question that I posed to him, one that the public and law enforcement has been baffled by for years,

and that is, are the Hells Angels, in fact, a criminal organization? Or are they simply a motorcycle gang with some bad apples within their ranks? You are about to find out. Check out George's YouTube channel at George Gus Christie, his website, georgechristy.com for all his books, merch, and his Patreon page. And follow him on Instagram at George Christie Jr. We also have an episode with George where we dive into even more detail about his life with the angels, available at patreon.com slash the...

Connect show. Ladies and gentlemen, a living legend, the one who made the Hells Angels a worldwide brand. George Christie, right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. The Hells Angels, and I was part of it at that time, had become the people were rebelled against. A lot of those guys wound up becoming informants. They wanted me to flip. I've never went to prison for anything I've ever done. That's when I see lights behind me start the flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on. And then I parked the car, hopped out, I closed the door, and I started running. And he pulls out a burner, shank, it's like six inches.

And he passes it to me. And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I made it out of that place alive. It depends on who you talk to, but the hell's angels, as much as they are a criminal organization, they're an international brand, right? They're a corporation, literally. Well, you know, that's interesting because in the, you know,

the early 80s, we started paying attention to our name and our logo. We had Limbock, Limbock and Sutton, who are our attorneys up in San Francisco. In addition to the Hells Angels, they had Pepsi Cola, Coca-Cola, Levi Stroud, MasterCard. And what ended that relationship was the other brands found out they were representing us, and they didn't want to brush against our brand. Not because our brand wasn't powerful, because our brand had, you know. Yeah, the reputation.

You know, ill reputation. So, you know, I learned a lot about branding. I've learned a lot about the media. Mr. Sutton taught me to control the narrative. You have to control the narrative. And so that was, you know, my introduction into branding, if you will. The H.A., I think they make millions of dollars a year just on memorabilia. Well, there are people out there that are infringing on the trademark.

And that was one of the things that I was involved in on the trademark board. And what we used to do is we used to go in person. And we used to kind of chuckle and call them out-of-court settlements. would go there and just tell the people you're infringing on our trademark. And Sonny had used to tell, tell him, if you don't listen to what we're going to say and you don't understand what we're explaining to you, we're going to leave an animal here. And when you finally understand what we're telling you, I'll ask him, I'll call him and ask him to come home.

Right. Animal was somebody that I had known since elementary school. him and I went back along the ways and, you know, that name was well earned. He was an animal. So you guys would actually go around to different clothing or whatever. Whatever it may be. Wow. And, you know, we've been make inferences and, you know, we were certainly prepared to back it up.

But, you know, a lot of it was a bluff, you know. Yeah, of course. You know, you go there and I remember one guy we went to, he was a. He was selling Hell's Angel pins that they were supposed to be replicas from some sort of World War II pen, which there was no World War II pin. Somebody had made these things up, sold a million of them out in the market, and they were everywhere saturated. And he had a military store, and we went there and told him, you know, you can't sell these anymore. Is there like a global headquarters of the Hells Angels? Well, or is it all decentralized just by chapters?

It's chapter to chapter. And I was just recently talking to, I was doing an interview, and they were talking about the difference between, and I'll use the outlaw, that's a motorcycle club, and the Mongols, they're structured different than we are, the Banditos. You know, we don't have an international leader. And the outlaws had a international leader. His name was Harry Bowman. He died in prison from racketeering. The banditos have an international leader.

He's spending a life term for racketeering, Jeff Pike. The Mongols have had a lot of problems because they have an international leader. The Hells Angels were autonomous. Each chapter is autonomous, but there's a connection, but it's not established. There's no way to prove it. What happens is you become a de facto leader. Like myself, Sonny was kind of the lead guy, and anytime he'd go to prison, I'd kind of step into that position. But it wasn't an official title.

It was you become a de facto leader. And so the feds can't build, it's harder for them to build a huge racketeering case based on a hierarchy, because there is no hierarchy. No, it's an illusion, if you will. You know, is a de facto leader, how do you present that to a jury? Right. Well, here's Mr. Christie. And, you know, he's not really a leader, but he's a de facto leader.

And we're going to tell you he's responsible for all these crimes that are going on. I mean, Mueller, who went after Trump, as you probably know, he led the case up in San Francisco, the Rico trial in the late 70s, early 80s. He failed twice. And, you know, the second hung jury, he threw his hands up and said, we're not going to go after him again. But what they did was they immediately moved to the East Coast, started another operation there that was called Operation Rough Rider,

and they targeted a guy named Sandy Alexander along with anybody else they could drag into it. But they went after them as individuals. It wasn't a racketeering case. And they got a lot of convictions. Do you think the fact that it is a decentralized structure, do you owe that to the persistence of the club as compared to these and the strength of the club? I think that when you say the persistence of the club, I, you know, I think a lot of things serendipitously happened.

You know, I think the Hells Angels were so strong-minded and so strong-willed that each Carter, you know, basically said, you know, we're going to do what we want, like in Ventura. You know, we did what we wanted. And like Oakland did what they wanted. So the club started in California. Started in San Bernardino. Yeah. It was a club called the Pissed Off Bastards from Bloomingdale. And they were actually at Hollister in 1948.

That's what I consider the birthplace of the outlaw motorcycle movement. And they had a personality problem within the club. They split and they became the Hells Angels. Yeah. And then you obviously ran the Ventura chapter in Ventura. What were some of the other strongholds in California besides Ventura? Richmond. Richmond, California.

Richmond, California. San Fernando Valley. San Francisco, San Jose. Oakland, of course. I would say they, and, you know, I'm not trying to disrespect any other Los Angeles, but, you know, they were the leading factors.

They were the ones that had influence in the meeting. You know, we had monthly meetings, and you go into that meeting, and you would see people aligning with, politically with the different chapters. And Sonny and I started having disagreements in the late 70s when he returned from prison.

Can you tell us who Sonny is? Sonny Barger, Ralph Sonny Barger, founded the Oakland Hells Angels in 1957 along with a guy named Boots. Initially, Boots was the president there, as I remember it, and Boots left for whatever reason. Sunny took over and probably within four or five years, Sunny had become the voice. and the face of the Hells Angels. I mean, he was a lot of tenacity on that guy.

The Hells Angels San Bernardino, what we referred to as Burdue, was the mother charter, but Sonny just took the power and brought it all up to Oakland. And there's a lot of people that think the Hells Angels started in Oakland because he was such a strong figurehead.

You know, the guy was pretty savvy. And I don't mean this in a disrespectful way. It wasn't real sophisticated, but he was street smart. A lot of personality, charisma, people like to follow him. And what was his driving ethos, his philosophy? Like, was he, did he drive the club? Did he steer the club towards criminality or to a more like legitimate, at least by appearance, a more legit bike organization?

Let me interject something. The Hells Angels are not a criminal organization. The Hells Angels are an organization with criminals. in it. A lot of criminals on the Hells Angels. I guess you could even say myself as well, I'm a multiple felon. Do I consider myself a criminal? No, I consider myself an outlaw. But you know, you asked me that question about Sunny and I mean, I could give you a sarcastic answer that actually has foundation to it depends on what day of the week you talk to him. You know, I think he was a very complex guy. I think that, you know, he always took the position

that were just good old boys riding our motorcycles. But, you know, he like conflict. You know, I tried to bring all the motorcycle clubs together kind of, you know, heading in one direction, certainly in our own lanes, but all heading in the same direction. Sonny just wouldn't have it. I mean, you know, I had set up a meeting with the banditos one time. And he didn't want to attend just because,

And there's just answer to me was, I don't fucking like them. You know, and, you know, you don't like them. You don't like them. But, you know, we had very strong personalities. Each of us did. And he was my senior by 10 years. But what you have to understand? He walked into the outlawed motorcycle world in 57.

I kind of stepped into it in the mid-60s. Got my first official motorcycle on 1960s. So, you know, he had a foothold and he was ahead of me. And I, you know, I respected him. What, how your branch, your outfit that you ran in Ventura, for example, like how, what percentage of the members were criminals versus people that were just there? Probably 50%. And, you know, what's interesting is the criminal element, as you referred to it, and I acknowledged,

a lot of those guys wound up becoming informants. Right. You know, David Gerardin was a vice president for a while, a very strong figure, really tough guy, one of the toughest guys I've seen in a long time on the street. And, you know, he was doing this and he was doing that. And I told him to pull the reins in. I said, hey, David, man, pull the reins in.

And he didn't. And he wanted to barter his way out. but that's how a lot of these guys get, you know, they get themselves on a jam and they want to extract themselves from their judicial problem and they barter. Today's episode is sponsored by prize picks. I love these guys. You know this.

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All right, let's get back into the show. So the government and the media paint the organization as this really sophisticated criminal structure with precise orders, right? Like drug trafficking, you know. But in your estimation, are there any official orders from the top, like in a chapter, for example, that sit down and say, okay, what are you guys into? The way the mob sits down and says, okay, you're into a sports book or loan sharking or extortion. No, that's not happening in the hells angels. And, you know, there are particular individuals that involve themselves. I'll give you a perfect example.

There was a crew of guys up in the Bay Area. Kenny Owens, Chico, I can't think of us. We used to call him Chico Minestrone. He was an Italian guy and it was his kind of nickname. Jim Jim Brandis. I don't know if you've ever heard of Jim Jim Brandis. Really a really ruthless guy. And those were the guys that control the meth market.

probably for, you know, a good percentage in the United States, you know. And they all got busted in the late 80s, you know. Chico got 40 years. Kenny got 41 years. During that particular investigation, Sunny got caught up in giving the informant permission to blow some guys up. You know, they had come to me initially and said, I was the West Coast chairman at the time, which was a job that really didn't have any official authority.

But as I stated earlier, what I found out almost immediately is you have this de facto, you know, position as a leader. People go, he's the West Coast chairman. He's got to have some power. And so they approached you like for permission to go blow these guys up in Kentucky. And it's not because I have, you know, such a high moral values. My red flags went up. And my first thought was this guy is asking me permission to go blow these guys up that we're fighting. You know, he wanted to blow up the outlaws.

And, you know, my first thought was, you don't need my permission. We're fighting with these guys already. But when you say, okay, like I push back when I hear you say it's a totally decentralized thing. It's not a criminal organization. Just some members, half of them at least, happen to be criminals. But then you say, well, we're fighting with a rival biker gang. Well, what is fighting entail? It's not on Twitter.

Well, but, you know, this is the thing. You didn't ask me what we were fighting about. And what are you fighting about? And how does that fighting occur? And what is the fighting? Well, we're fighting serious. I mean, people dying. Right.

Which is criminal. So. Well, I see it. To me, I see that more as an outlaw type. You know, some people may go, I'm a hypocrite. Outlaw. Law. Yeah. Outside the law.

Sure. And I consider myself someone that lived outside the law for all those years. Do I live outside the law now? Not really, you know. I don't do anything illegal. You know, I speed on my motorcycle. I just, you know, came back from Pismo Beach Sunday, you know, probably 80 miles an hour all the way of pulling a side car, you know,

with my wife and my dog. Spring weekends are all about family, sunshine, and evenings on the patio. Before everyone arrives, I stop by my local Total Wine and More to grab a great bottle to share. With such a wide selection and the lowest prices, it's easy to find something amazing

for everyone to enjoy. If you're not sure what to pick, their friendly guides can help. Find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and More. shop total wine and more in store or online spirits not sold in virginia and north carolina drink responsibly b21 how many times would people approach you uh about potential like to yeah committing constantly constantly yeah i mean i have people come and try to uh hire the club to go kill their

partner uh because they got a you know run a beef with the guy and uh so What do you do as you want to, if you want to keep the club clean, what, what's your first reaction when your approach about murder? Do you say, hey, no, you shouldn't do that? Or do you say, or do you, or do you think, God, this guy's maybe wearing a wire? Well, that's the first thing I'd think. That's what I'm laughing. I'm going, you know, so they come into me and they say, hey, you know, we are having a dispute at our business. I want to get rid of my partner, make it worth your wild. You know, first thing I tell them is, you know, why the guy out? You know, because I know they're recording me, at least if they're not, I'm thinking they are. Yeah. And, you know, I lost count of how many times that happened. We had a guy walk into the clubhouse. This is the late 70s.

And he must have put $10,000 of $100 bills on the table. And he wanted to hire us. And I'm being honest, I don't remember why you wanted to hire us. but I didn't want that money. And, you know, I've got my vice president there. He's salivating at these $100 bills on this table. And, you know, I pushed everything back to the guy. And there's no doubt in my mind that, you know, we were being recorded.

I don't think we were being filmed. They weren't that sophisticated back then. But there's no doubt in my mind, you know, we weren't being recorded and never heard from the guy again. Right. But just from your fearsome look and your reputation, people think, oh, these guys are killers. Yeah. And, you know, some of it's earned, you know. There's guys in prison, you know, for shooting people.

But you don't think club presidents, at least your chapter or chapters of California, sanction murders by their ranking members. No. But, you know, you get a lot of inner conflicts. You know, you go back to the 70s. Terry the Tramp, probably 70 or so. I can't remember the date. 70 or 71, hot shot.

You know? Yeah. You know, he was given a hot shot. They wanted to get rid of him. A hot shot, a heroin. Heroin hot shot. And then you've got, you know, Harry the horse, Gary Roebbels. You know, you've got all these murder snake that they're still, you know, unresolved.

You know, there are cold cases now, I guess you'd call them. Yeah. The government, here's the thing about, you know, outlaw clubs, biker clubs. they're kind of like cults, the branch Davidians come to mind, right? Yeah, but I don't like that terminology because I don't feel we were a cult. We were a club. Sure. I'm just talking about the way in which the government investigates you guys seemingly with no evidence, seemingly.

They create the evidence sometimes. Right. And I think probably just like everything in life, the truth is somewhere in the middle. But certainly the government in the small town of Ventura, California, spent decades and resources trying to take you down. They wanted you gone. Well, I was totally spent over $30 million just in the 2001 case where we were indicted. The investigation started in 1970, excuse me, 1999, I believe, or 98. It had to do with the 50th Hells Angel anniversary.

And what transpired was, and this is law enforcement's imagination, they thought Sunny went to Arizona, retired in that I had taken over the club. And, you know, I was confronted by law enforcement. I told him, I go, you know that's not how our club is structured. But regardless of what I said, they didn't believe it. They got money from the government. They got grants. They took money from within the community. They admitted, you know, the district attorney Bradbury admitted that they spent $10 million.

I was told by someone in law enforcement that I was friends with. They spent $30 million. And, you know, they got, I pled guilty to some sort of tax charge. I mean, they're so, you know, people laugh. I have people write me and they go, what did you get busted for? And I go, I don't remember. And they think I'm lying. Yeah.

But, you know, you get one felony. I mean, what does it matter? You know, you're a felon. Yeah. You certainly, according to your Wikipedia page, you certainly were the de facto mayor, governor of Ventura. Do you think it's the nature of these small towns that allow large biker gangs to thrive? because it's not like being in New York City where there's so much law enforcement everywhere.

These are kind of more remote places that kind of lend themselves to a more outlaw way of life. Well, you know, I would take exception with the term gang. We always consider ourselves a club. Okay, sorry. No, it's okay.

I have to apologize. I've been called worse things. But, you know, look, I've read that in Wikipedia and somebody, you know, wrote me and said you had to read what the saying about you, you know. And he was saying all the small-time drug dealers they arrested in Ventura would say, yeah, we're getting all of our meth and marijuana from the Hells Angels,

but we're not giving you any names because we're scared. We control that town. Right. And I ran that town with an iron fist. You know, which you have to understand is I had a concert promotion business. I had a T-shirt business. I had the only tattoo shop in town for 35 years. I had a bail bonds business,

and I was the administrator for my daughter's law office. So, you know, I was quite the entrepreneur at that time. I mean, I didn't have time to sling illegal drugs. And, you know, I kind of stepped away from that whole lifestyle in the 80s. Did you have a background in that? Well, I mean, you don't become leader of the hell's angels without. understanding what the hell's going on in the streets. You know, I'm just being candid with you.

I think also it didn't interest me because easier ways to make money. You get busted one time and you go, the time you bail out and all the money you spend on your lawyer and what they take from you and don't give you back, it just didn't seem worth it to me. So there's no incentive for somebody in the club? Yeah, a lot of people have an incentive, you know, and I'm sure there's still people out there slinging. But it just, you know, it just seems like a different world. But, you know, I'm almost 80 years old now. I have different values.

I have different things that drive me. You know, when you're a young man and you're in a strong, powerful leadership position, you have a different philosophy. You know, like we were talking earlier off camera. You know, I was always known as a peacemaker, but like I told you, you know, to be an effective peacemaker, you have to be willing to go to war. So, you know, did I get my hands dirty? So let's talk about going to war. In the 70s, I think it was 77, there were a series of bombings that took place.

In Los Angeles. Yeah. Can you tell us about those? Sure. Yeah. There was a conflict between Los Angeles, Hells Angels, San Diego. Diego Hells Angels and a bike club called the Mongols, which were kind of a fledgling bike club at the time. And actually now they're very powerful.

Sure. A real force to be reckoned with. There's always been problems between those two. Always been problems, and I believe there always will be problems. And what you have to understand is, you know, cops think it's over drugs and it's this. And it's not, you know, like I stated earlier, and we kind of got off subject about the outlaws how that war started. And this war kind of started perhaps in the same way. We had a Hells Angel that testified against other Hells Angels in Richmond, California.

He came down, went to Long Beach, and became a Mongol. And, you know, the other guys went to the Witness Protection Program. You know, he was hiding in plain sight. Wow. And the Mongols were new to that lifestyle. And perhaps they didn't understand that, you know, the gravity of what he had done. And I'm sure he lied to everybody because later Harry Bowman, head of the outlaws and I got in a big conversation about it, that this guy Chester was, you know, an informant.

You know, he testified against the Hells Angels. He didn't believe it. This guy convinced him. that he hadn't. I had to show him the actual paperwork, hey, this is what the guy did. But that was the first factor. Then you had an ex-Hels Angels wife living with a Mongol. And then the Mongols, I don't know where they came up with this idea, but they thought, we're going to put on a California rocker. And at that time, the Hells Angels were the only organization in California that

had the full California rocker and that's the patch along the bottom of the vest yeah right the Mongols is I believe is straight ours was curved you know that's why I referred to it as a rocker and they put that on there we had warned them not to do it

but they put that on there in the last holiday September I forget the dates in 1977 jingles and red beer two Mongols from San Diego got shot off their bikes. And from there, the next provocation was at the double funeral, a bomb went off at the funeral.

And a couple of weeks later... Did people get killed? No, they were injured, but not killed. A couple of weeks later, a bomb went off at the frame-up motorcycle shop. And, you know, Mongol died and his 15-year-old cousin. standing alongside of them. And then there were, you know, several bombings throughout San Fernando Valley, Los Angeles, car bombings, you know, nobody else died. But, you know, you had five people killed in a matter of just a few weeks, you know.

Did you have anything to do with those bombings? Of course not. I actually was against the bombings. Did you know about them, though? I did know about them. Did you know they were going to happen? Well, I suspected something was going to happen. happened because they had put a bomb. What happened was I walked into a middle of a meeting,

an impromptu type meeting. After about 60 seconds, I realized they were conspiring to build a bomb and to go bomb this Mongol facility. It wasn't really a clubhouse. It was more of a business. But it was a hangout kind of a place. I don't know if they were making a lot of money. And I, you know, had come out of the military, Marine Corps. I worked for the Department of Defense, you know. Right. And I said, you know, you guys are going to bomb this place? I said, what about collateral damage?

And they were very cavalier. And I said, well, I'm out of here. I got up and I left. And they did take a bomb there. It didn't go off. And Oman John, who was the president of Los Angeles, made me go back and retrieve the bomb that didn't go off because there were people mad at me because I walked out of the meeting

and said I wasn't going to participate. How did these other members who did participate? How did they know how to build a bomb? Was their past military experience as well? That I can't answer, honestly. Vietnam, they might have had... The guy that made the bomb, Brett Eaton, wound up ratting on everybody. So people went down for those bombings?

Oh, yeah. Okay. We had a Ventura member. He's the guy that... Well, he was a Los Angeles member. Later became a Ventura member. He had taken the bomb into the Mongol shop. And he wound up doing some time.

over it. But not for till 10 years later. Okay. Now, you as a chapter president, could you hear about this conspiracy to set off all these bombs? Do you, would you actually have the authority to say you can't do this? Or does everybody kind of operate autonomously? People are working autonomous, but you have to understand that, you know, people don't want to get involved in that stuff, you know? I mean. No, yes, they do. Well, they were involved. Not me, but I'm saying that you're talking about membership across California. You know, in the conspiracies that came from these violent acts in San Diego, like red beard and jingle, I think there were two people involved in the conspiracy.

One guy went to prison. The other guy became an informant. Brad Eaton, same thing in the bombing. you had Brad Eaton and this guy Billed the bomb. Brad Eaton ratted on him. You know, he went to prison. So, you know, it was adjudicated. And obviously, if they could have arrested everybody in Los Angeles, they would have.

They didn't have the evidence. And that's not the way the crime came down. Right. Right. Okay. So it's conspiracies, it's criminals or people that are committing criminal acts inside of a larger organization, but kept within their own, you know, little world within that organization. Well, you know, in other words, somebody can go, two members of the Hells Angels can go blow up a

Mongol without like a vote, like the way the mafia has like a council and they have to get permission to go pull a hit. People were just running a mutt. This is the 70s. People were just running a muck. Now, as things progressed in the late 80s, you know, I, I came, I went in the prison, came back, and I had a lot more gravitas, if you will, you know, interesting enough, you know. Yeah. You know, you know, you go to prison, it gives you some, you give you a street, correct? Yeah, and I came back and I was being very vocal about ending all these wars. We were fighting the Mongols.

We were fighting the outlaws. We were on and off with the banditos. We were fighting the pagans. And ultimately, we'd wind up fighting the Vagos. But that wouldn't be, you know, for 20, 25 years later. So I wanted to end all these conflicts. And how I really started doing it is I used jail as a platform to, you know, petition people. In jail, outlaw bike clubs don't fight.

You can be in there with a Mongol who you're fighting with on the street. you could be in there with an outlaw who you're fighting with on the street a pagan a bandito a vago but you don't fight with him in jail you know and you share the yard with yeah and uh that was when i came back and proposed to everybody i go why are we fighting on the street when we're not fighting in prison i go we've got everything we want here on the street we've got you know everything you can imagine what what what is some of that well you know motorcycles women, drugs, money, power, prestige. You know, a lot of people might, you know, laugh and go, oh, you know,

who wants to be part of an outlaw motorcycle club, but, you know, it gives you a lot of street cred. Yeah. And it's almost like you put that patch on your back, whatever patch it may be. It's like a carte blanche. You know, you can get away with a lot of stuff. And you have to be very careful as you vet the people that, come around the club that they're not going to just, you know, become out of control.

Make a mockery of the patch. Yeah, I mean, you know. Well, I was going to ask you that. So, because I couldn't really get it out of Jay Dobbins when I asked him about how he was able to infiltrate the club down in. I think it was Arizona. But when you're, we've got a prospect. Right. I hang around and then a prospect who's trying to get patched in.

Is there any kind of requiring? of a criminal act for them to then get their stripes, get their patch. Again, the way in the mafia, you need to show that you're a good earner on the street illegally and then maybe even go kill somebody

to get, become made. The club's not structured like that. Okay. It's about members. It's focuses around motorcycles and brotherhood. I mean, that's initially, you know, what it was all about. You know how the club started, correct?

No, you guys watched the movement. be easy rider. No, come on. That's a pretty good answer. No, it's not correct. Dennis Hopper told me how to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you had returning vets from the Pacific Theater,

from the European Theater in World War II, and they came back and probably displaced, suffered from undiagnosed PTSD, and they started these little bike clubs. You know, you had the booze fight. You had the galloping goose. You had the 13 rebels. You had the poobabs.

That was the pissed off bastards from wherever they were from. Yeah, San Bernardino. Yeah. And, you know, the Hells Angels sprung from that. So that was the birth of the Outlaw Bike Club. And it had nothing to do with illegal activity, narcotic sales. It had to do with... Fraternity.

Yeah, it was a fraternity. These guys had this brotherhood. they came back to just about nothing. Look, you come back from prison, what's it like? You start over. Yeah. Some guys don't make it. And I don't know, you know, speaking for myself, you know, I've been in prison three times.

I've came back three times and reinvented myself, and it hasn't been easy. You know, each time it's a struggle. So do you think your generation adopted this, ideology of being free and separate from what was then like square, middle class. Sure. Norms. And, you know, I think... Seems like freedom is the big driver.

You guys like your freedom. Absolutely. And identity. And, you know, the motorcycle represents freedom. You know, I did a interview, which I was totally shocked. Harley Davidson, my motorcycle company invited me to be part of a documentary back in the mid-80s. And, you know, that was one of the things, you know, the interviewer said, isn't motorcycles a symbol of authority? And, you know, I said, no, it's a symbol of rebellion to me.

That's what it always meant to me. The first time I saw an outlaw biker was probably in 1955. You know, I was standing on a street corner with my father, maybe nine, ten years old. And, you know, it just had outlaw all over it, you know. And metaphorically, man, I jumped on that bike, you know, when that guy went through that signal. And it took me 10 years to get into that world. But I kept thinking about it and wanted to have it. And so, you know, that's what the outlaw movement was all about. And I think, you know.

So it's based in rebellion. Yeah. And, you know, people confuse the outlaw with the criminal, you know. But there's a lot of people pushed into criminality because of that lifestyle. And are you going to put food on your table by any means? Or are you going to let your family starve? Yeah. Well, I think it shouldn't be a big surprise looking back that a club and a culture based off of being an outlaw,

which is just by definition criminal, right? If it's outside the law and rebellion, that is going to attract people, even if it's not an explicitly criminal organization, it's going to attract people that make their living through criminality because it's hard to be a lawyer Monday through Friday and then go ride with the brothers Saturday Sunday. You know, we used to call them in the 80s. Weekend Warriors?

No, we would call them rubs, rich urban bikers. And, you know, did I have a problem with the rubs? No, you know, it was a big highway. There's lanes going up and there's lanes going down And there's plenty of room for everybody But not everybody Can become an outlaw, a real outlaw. So then how, if it's not a criminal organization

And I say this with all due respect. I just this is what makes for good podcasting. It's my job to poke holes and logic. Well, I expect you to come after me a little bit. If it's not a criminal organization, then shouldn't, what are the characteristics that you look for in a prospect to become a patched-in member,

if it's not the ability to earn criminally or potentially carry out criminal acts? Well, you know, what kind of got? Motorcycles are a guy riding. Is this guy a stand-up dude? Can he hold his mud? I mean, these are 60s expressions, you know? Yeah.

And, you know, we used to ride up to Bass Lake, and that was the place where you kind of worked out all your differences in, you know, at the end of the weekend, whoever was left standing by the fire is someone who referred to as a regular, you know, hey, the guy's a regular. David Ortega, a very close friend of mine, met him in 1966, and, you know, we were friends up until his death, sometimes good times, sometimes bad times. I mean, we fought amongst ourselves, not to the point where somebody was in jeopardy, but we, you know, we were. We had, you know, disagreements and whatnot like any brother would with his brother.

But at the end of that weekend, you know, that was a term he came up with, you know, the guy's a regular, you know. Yeah. What do you think of that guy? Well, he's a regular. You know, we had another guy that came around the club. He was an informant. And I picked him out. I said, I know this guy's no good.

And he turned out to be no good. And, you know, I went to David. I was just to defer to David a lot. I said, you know, like, David, what do you think of this guy? He said, I don't know, man. I don't like him. And I said, what do you think it is? We could never put our finger on it.

And what David came up with. He goes, you know what it is, man? He goes, I just don't like the way parts his hair. And the guy was a rat. You know, he was working for the FBI. He put Sonny to prison, busted Irish. Irish got murdered before he went to prison. Busted all these guys up in the Bay Area, who I had mentioned earlier,

you know, Chico and, you know, the rest of that whole, you know, crank crew. those guys were cooking crank up there. And, you know, you talked about, is it spread around? No, those guys knew how to cook crank, and they wouldn't share that recipe with anybody. You know, they were in control. You know, they had that little cartel that they were running. And, you know, I had mentioned Jim Jim earlier, like, you know, Jim Jim was ruthless, you know. So obviously there's different outfits, different chapters obviously have different.

levels of criminals in them, right? So an Oakland chapter or a Richmond chapter that's got meth cooks that are making millions of dollars a year, I assume that's going to be a better funded chapter. Am I correct in that? Or what are the dues that you have to pay into the club? You know, you pay weekly dues, whatever the set dues are. When I first came around the club, it was, you know, five bucks a week. You know, when I left, it was, you know, over $150 a week or whatever. I mean, cost of living, though, had gone up as well. But, you know, look, the record speaks for itself. You know, you can speculate all day long and these guys are doing this and these guys are doing that. You know, you talk to Jay Dobbins, you know, I got no axe to grind

with Jay, but, you know, he was an ATF guy. And, you know, it's funny because they talk about us drinking the Kool-Aid. I mean, he drank the Kool-Aid. You know, he believed that the Hells, And he does believe that the Hells Angels is a criminal organization. You know, and like I say, it's not. It's an organization with criminals in it. And whether good or bad or indifferent, it is what it is. I think we might even be splitting hairs. Say I have a household, right?

Right. There's 10 people in the household. It's a big Mexican household. Kidding. But it's a... He said that, not me. Of course. I'll take the heat.

So household of 10 people. only two people in the house are getting abused. Would you call that an abusive household? Or would you call it a household that has abusive people in it? It's a household of abusive people in it. Come on, you knew what I was going to say. Right, right, right. I feel like I'm the DA right now.

Well, I feel like I'm on a stand, you know, but I took six days on the stand. You know, I took the witness stand in my own defense. Yeah, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about that. I'm getting ahead of myself. Yeah. I usually am.

So are you telling me that there's no, that whatever a guy brings in off the street, if he's a member of a chapter, that money isn't getting kicked upstairs to a boss. It's never been proven. And I don't think it's taking place. Now, if somebody wants to throw some money into the club treasury, you know, I don't think anybody's going to question. Wait a minute. Where's that money coming from? No one's going to ask. I mean, I'm being honest.

No, I believe you. People are not going to ask. But you wouldn't have a meth cook toss you an envelope of cash when you were the president. Like Tony's a Pram. No. And I've got this stuff that can substantiate what I'm saying and back up what I'm saying. Tony Tate is an FBI informant. He comes into the meeting and he brings it up in the meeting.

We've got 12, 13 Hells Angel presidents from the West Coast. in there. He comes in there and he goes, I want to blow up the outlaws. I mean, that's a conspiracy. That's a crazy thing to say. I would kick him out. Now, do you have the authority as president to be like, give me your patch and you're done? Like, you can't, you can't do that. You can't do that. But let me tell you what I did do. He's sitting next to me. And aside from having that cavalier statement and, you know, trying to draw people in their conversation. He has a cast on. Hmm.

And I'm sitting here. He's sitting next to me. The cast is right there. There's a bug in the cast. So they have me on tape saying, hey, you know what? I have no interest in escalating this problem with the, and I'm choosing, and I'll be honest with you,

I'm choosing my words very carefully. And I'm thinking, this tape's going to wind up in a courtroom someday. Right. And indeed it did, you know. And so I confront him. Basically, I go, you're a lucky guy. And he said, what do you mean? I go, you get in a bike wreck?

You don't even have one bit of road rash on you? Brand new cast. I go, you're a lucky guy, man. And, you know, he leaves the meeting. The FBI breaks the cast off. then they decide to put the bug in a new device that's just kind of late on the scene and it's called a beeper.

You know, this will give you an idea what, you know, what time frame this is. So they put the bug in the beeper. He goes over to Sunny's house and has the same conversation with Sunny. The problem is Sunny bites and they've got Sunny on tape, you know, tape goes, you know, we're going to blow these guys up.

it's going to be a problem. There's going to be a lot of collateral damage because I'm going to make this bomb big. And, you know, Sonny says, you know, the more people hurt, the better. And, you know, so you've got one conversation,

two outcomes. I see. And so what happened to Sunny? Did he go down? He went to prison for five years for that conversation. So Sonny, it's fair to say that he was a criminal. Well, I don't think there's any doubt about it.

I mean, he would admit that himself, I think, if he was sitting here. And he would probably be really offended. I've been on a couple of interviews with him, and he threatened to beat up an interviewer once for making a comment, but the guy was being funny. I would love to get beat up. That would make for great content. It would be. I mean, you know, I mean, are there? Let me try to, yeah,

let me try to whip you up into a frenzy here. Look, you know, Okay, so you're, you weren't getting street money kicked upstairs to you by people from your chapter when you were president. Now, were you aware, how you said about 50, 50% of people in your chapter when you were running things were street guys. Well, I mean, you know, I'm guessing. Okay. I mean, I don't want to know what they were doing. So you didn't have knowledge. I didn't want to have knowledge.

Why would I want to have knowledge or something like that? Because look, if you know everything that's going on in the town, you're like Ron Perlman and Sons of Anarchy. Like you're, you know everything that's going on. You know, that's one of the questions I asked the jury in my last criminal federal case, do you watch Sons of Anarchy? And if you do, do you think I, as leader of the Hells Angels, have knowledge of everything? And, you know, a good percentage of them said yes. And yes, we do watch Sons of Anarchy. And yes, I think Mr. Christie knows everything that's going.

on. And so is that that's not true? You're saying that's not true? No, it's not true. No, I and, you know, but you know what the cops were doing? The judge was smart enough to see my daughter, who was my attorney, we were setting up a misdrial in case I was found guilty. And the judge was so astute, Judge Wu, I think, or maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I, I, I've all joking aside, I think he was really smart. He wound up making the U.S. attorney and the defense team played out. You know, he just goes, this is, this is an incredibly convoluted case. But anyways, I got off track, but I wanted to jump on that statement.

Okay. About Ron Perlman. Yes. Can I be compared with? It's pretty fascinating, like, to think about a place in America where law and order rules, supposedly, but in a little town like Ventura, California, this, idyllic little beach town. And do you believe that

that show is patterned after Ventura? I believe there's elements of the biker culture in California that it's patterned after. There's elements of it with some hyperbole, a lot of hyperbole, of course. But, you know, you knew when people, you knew when the DA had a hard on for you. Well, he made it well known. You knew when the sheriffs. Do you know why he had a hard on for me? No.

I assume just... Because I was voted the number one mover and shaker in Ventura, and he was number two. And that's honest to God truth. My picture was on the front of the Ventura magazine, and he was inside a second place. Right.

And he was really, really pissed off about it. Right. Yeah, and I think that's... Because you bring up a good point, because he's just human. Right. And that's where he went wrong. He made the investigation and he came after me.

He made it personal. And that's when it always goes off the rails. You can't do that stuff and make it personal. You've got to investigate it, follow the evidence, and then make your indictments. You know, you can't do it on somebody's personality. Well, George is a smart ass. So I'm going to get him indicted. I mean, he hit me with 59 counts.

And, you know, they will find him. Finally, after a year, they offered me a deal time served. But I spent a year in solitary confinement, but they offered me time served. And it was a tax charge and I think conspiracy to steal a Vicodon off of Air Force base. Yeah, they found a ton of Vicodin in a raid. A lot of Vicodin. Were you got a million Vicodin pills? Yeah.

So were you guys selling these Vicodin? Well, some of the guys were. I wasn't. They never proved anything. And I didn't. Well, they didn't prove anything, but I don't. And I didn't. Well, some of the guys got found guilty of it, pled out to it. So somebody had stolen?

An Air Force airman who was friends with some of the Ventura members, including my son. I mean, they found 30,000 Vicodon at my son's house. It was actually his mother's house. But, you know, they stole a million Vicodon off the Air Force base. Wow. And then a lot of Vicodon. And then made, right. And every, the whole town was on.

They were selling them. The people that were selling them and were complicit in it, they were selling them for $5 a pill. So million pills at $5. What's that? $50 million? $5 million, right? There we go. Thanks.

We had to look over at our mathematician over there. Your beautiful wife. I know. She's on that money, you know. Yeah, right. She's like the $5 million we could have had, George. Yeah. If you would have grown some balls and participated.

Right. So what was the, there was no temptation there? Well, there's always temptation. Of course there's temptation. But, you know, you've got these guys. I'm having a hard time with this. What's the matter? Tell me.

Tell me. I don't know. What do you want to know? You want me to confess right now? Yeah. Yeah, well, that ain't going to happen. No, what are you having a problem with? No, I'm not having a problem with it.

I guess you just, you were president, you were in a position of power for decades during the height of the cocaine boom, then the speed boom. You know, I sort of so much cocaine in the 80s they were going to make me an honorary Colombian citizen at one time. You know, I said that at a party one time,

and I offended a Colombian by making that statement. Yeah. We're tired of Colombia being equated to cocaine. Don't you hate that? It's like, we don't know anything else about your stupid country, so be happy with it. That and, you know, I know about the first.

The FARC. The FARC rebels, sure. Right, sure. Because they took over the cocaine business, and we had a beef with them in Europe. Could you go into that? Yeah. Do you want to do it right now? Yes, please.

Well, one of the guys in Holland made a deal with the FARC got up. See, what makes it so easy is getting involved in illicit businesses as a Hells Angel or probably any other motorcycle club is you can get instant. credit. Right. You know? Because you have to pay your bills. That's a rule. You know, yeah. So, you know, Mike Wallace, when I was on 60 minutes, Mike Wallace hammered that home with me,

you know, it was right in our bylaws, no drug burns. And, you know, my- Meaning you don't rip people off for drugs. Never rip people off. Hang on. Okay. I know. You think you got me now, don't. I don't think anything. I think... I think if it's in your bylaws that you don't burn people

over drugs. And Mike Wallace asked me the same thing. But that implies that you sanction drug dealing. Well, it does imply that. So how is it not a criminal organization? Well, you'd think that they would have taken that and used it against us. But, you know, I'm going to say to you, like I said to Mr. Wallace, you know, 30 years ago, whenever it was.

That's so cool, by the way. Yeah, it was cool. And I'm going to tell you a little story about him afterwards. we didn't know where they found that piece of paper. You know, the feds mysteriously wound up with it. Was it an authentic piece of paper? Sure it was, but I sure the hell didn't admit it on camera, you know. But it was.

It was part of the rules. But it was really about anything. You couldn't even sell. And what the guys were doing is they were going to Hayd Ashbury, and they were selling joints for a dollar a piece with the Reagan. Oh, okay, ripping people off. Yeah. And the guy said, we made a rule. You can't do that. Right. Because the hippies were getting mad at us.

Yeah. You know, we were friends with the Grateful Dead. Right. Big Brother, you know, Chocolate George, I think, was romancing Janice Joplin at the time. Right. And, you know, people. So it hurts the brand. Yeah, it hurts the brand.

But getting back to the FARC, this guy got a, just remember, got a million dollars worth of drugs. fronted fronted yeah the money disappeared the drugs disappeared and uh i don't know if it's true you know it's kind of an urban myth uh within the club but uh the the fark said either you kill him or we'll kill him and uh we didn't want a war with the fork and the guy wound up dead you know if in fact is that true like i said it's kind of part of the yeah the myth and the legend of the hell's angels There was a really strong leader in the club prior to that incident happening. I think if he would have remained as leader of the club, that never would have happened, but he got pushed out.

And sometimes it's better to let the people, maybe that you don't like their personalities, but if they have a strong hand on the membership, sometimes it's better to let them keep control of the club. Because they can do things that law enforcement can't. And that was a mistake. I think they made in Ventura. Can you explain that? Well,

doing things that law enforcement can't? Well, we mean stopping. We control the streets. So stopping criminality before it starts. Who else can, okay, here's a perfect example. There's drive-by shootings starting to happen. This is a new phenomenon in Southern California. Right.

It's like the 80s? Yeah. It starts happening in Ventura. You know, what do the hell's angels do? We call a meaning. with all the street gangs, they come down in the clubhouse and we tell them, you guys don't have to get along. But if you guys start shooting and continue to shoot each other,

there had been two drive-by shootings, nobody got hit. He said, we're going to intercede and we're going to make sure there's no drive-by shootings in Ventura County. Well, could the police do that? No. No. They couldn't do that. But the hell's angels did it. And there was a lot of people in law enforcement that embraced it.

and there was a lot of people in law enforcement that it disturbed them because they didn't have the power or authority to do what the hell's angels could do. Now, a lot of the old-time cops were, what do you guys care? Let them get the job done. Like, make the community safe.

And that was the end goal to make the community safe. But what happens is, like in a lot of things in life, the egos and the personalities get in the way. Right. And, you know, there was a police chief I'm not going to mention his name. There was a police chief in there that he, I mean, he told me personally. He goes, you guys behave yourselves, do whatever the fuck you want in the underworld. You know, don't impact the community.

Leave the citizens alone. Wow. You know, that's a pretty good formula. Did you make the drive by shooting stop? We did. Oh, yeah. They completely stopped. And it evolved from there in the same, one of the same cops that took, except.

to us being involved in stopping the drive-by shootings. What happened from there is we started communicating with these street gangs. Who are the bloods and the crips? No, no, they were, Pierpont was a gang, Avenue Gangsters was a Gang, Midtown was a Gang. You know, they had these little gangs, the Colonial Chicas and Oxnard, you know, it was a gang. and we started having these parties at the clubhouse. And we would charge entrance fee and then we'd sell support gear. We'd sell shots of liquor.

We'd sell, you know, beer. And we'd always have these local bands, you know, like you ever heard a big bad voodoo daddy? They were kind of a big band for a while. They played at the clubhouse several times. But we started making like $20, $25,000 a night. It was like a nightclub. You know, the clubhouse became almost like a nightclub. And the same cops that were mad about the drive-by shootings were mad that we were making so much money.

Right. They didn't think it was cool, you know. One of them I got an argument, one of them. He goes, what are we getting out of it? We're getting nothing. You know? And I said, well, look, I said, you can get all these street gangs together and not, there's not even one fist fight. I go, I said, don't you think that accomplishes something?

I go, these guys get to understand. Hey, maybe these guys aren't much different than us. and they can strike up relationships, but they didn't see it that way. So do you feel like the heat and the pressure from these ego-driven bureaucrats in the sheriff's department, the district attorney's office? You think that kept getting more persistent as the years went on? Well, I think it was a, I think if you talk to the old-timers in law enforcement, it's almost like talking to the old-timers and the hells angels.

Yeah. You've got these new webbers-snappers. You know, they're losing the essence of, you know, what law enforcement is about. But, yeah, I think all those jobs are ego-driven pretty much. Did they make any what they would call righteous busts while you were president from, like, you know, the 70s up to the 2000s? Not in Ventura. Look, let me tell you, we moved out of Los Angeles because of what you spoke about earlier, the bombings, the machine guns. gunnings. I came up with this idea as a Marine. It's like there was one bridge still that we could

exit the town and get to a safe place and regroup and go on with our lives. And that town was Ventura. And I had went to the club and I said, look, it's only a matter of time until we get indicted. These guys were on us. I mean, they were taking pictures. They were stopping us. F-I cards questioning people. And I came up with this idea for the saint and slaves to become the San Fernando Valley, Hells Angels. The Los Angeles, Hells Angels would pack up. I'm being kind of dramatic now. In the middle of the night and retreat to Ventura, open the Ventura Hells Angels up.

The investigation would shift to the Satan slaves who were now Hells Angels, who had nothing to do with the war with the Mongols. up until that point. So they were investigating the wrong guys. Right. And we were all up in Ventura drinking Pinacoladas, living it up. Yeah. And they're investigating the saint and slaves who are now Hells Angels.

Well, they don't know the difference between the Hells Angels and the law enforcement didn't interact with each other. You know, they hoarded the information. Are you able to make those decisions unilaterally? Well, I had to get permission, but my... For who? well, from the body of Hell's Angel presidents at the time. I went to a meeting in 1978, but I also... Is that how it works?

Yeah. If you want to open a chapter in a new town, you have to get permission from Hiram's. But I pretty much didn't. Okay. I just, I kind of did things that I felt were right and I believed in. And, you know, I was ready to fight for them. But, you know, we're up in Ventura now. The investigation stalls and nothing happens for a decade.

later told Brett Eaton, who was one of the people in the car that killed jingles and redbeard, the Mongols. Remember the funeral? Right. It was an explosion. And the Brett's, they made the bomb for the frame up, him and that guy carried it in. Brett Eaton's in New York now hiding because there's so much heat in Southern California. He gets busted for drugs, and he tells them, you know, how would you guys like to solve some murders in Southern California? They jump right on it, you know, and that's how they caught up to the people that had perpetrated those crimes.

And did you try to dissuade members from selling drugs because of that reason? I didn't get involved. I figured they could do what they want, but this is what I would do. I would approach them. And I'd say, look, if I know what you're doing, the police know what you're doing because the police do this every day for a living and they know what's going on. You may fool yourself and think you're smarter than them and you're better than them and you're slicker than them. But maybe you are, but only for a short envelope of time because they'll figure out what you're doing. Yeah.

And that would be my speech. And if they wanted to continue to sell narcotics, that was their business. I didn't want to get involved because I don't want to get busted. But you knew just from the decentralized nature of, you knew that if you weren't involved, even if they raided the clubhouse and arrested these guys, if you don't know anything, they can't get you. You can't get me. But look, you got a guy that's not working.

You know, he's up for four or five days straight and then he sleeps three or four days. He's riding a new motorcycle. he just got a brand new car. He's living down at Pierpont Beach in an expensive apartment. I mean, when I say expensive back then, an apartment down to beach is probably $1,200, which was, you know, a lot of money, you know. But it's pretty easy to figure out what they're doing.

I mean, you know, I don't want to say to them, I don't want to have knowledge of them. I don't want to get in a conversation, you know, well, how much are you selling, you know, or I don't want it to appear that I have any interest in. Right, right. Okay. So, yeah.

But it's pretty easy to figure out. And if I can figure it out, the cops are right behind me or maybe they're ahead of me. But they haven't been able, you're right, though. They have not been able to make federal cases the way that they make RICO cases on the mob, even when the underlings do dirt. And they get the Godfather and they tie that in together.

They haven't been able to really do that. No, they haven't. And they probably never will. But, you know, they sometimes some of the guys do cavalieres. and I'll talk about that in a minute. But what I wanted to say was when all the bombs are going off in Southern California, who do I get a call from, Sam Serentino? This is after I became vice president of the Hells Angels down there.

You know who Sam Sarantino is? He was the underboss of the L.A. mob. And he said, really, George, at a funeral? Yeah. Yeah, they were really upset because, not because they had a high morning, value. I don't think. I don't believe for one minute, Sam San Antonio gave us shit that we were blowing those guys up at a funeral. But he thought it was interfering

in the cash flow. With business. Yeah. With those guys. Yeah. It brings... They did not like it. Brings the heat. It does bring the heat. And that was it. He said to me, really, George, had a funeral. And later, this was in the late 70s. Later, I'm in prison with him in 1986 at Terminal Island. And, you know, we carry the conversation on there. He's there. Carlos Marcello, you know,

are you familiar with him? He ran New Orleans, man. You ought to check him out, Carlos Marcello. He wasn't the guy that had something to do with the Kennedy assassination. Was that him? Yeah. That was Joe Pesci's character in JFK?

No, Joe Pesci played... He was the gay guy, the flame boy. I can't think of his name. No, Carlos Morsello was the crime boss in New Orleans. I mean, he ruled that town with the Iron Fills. but Sam Sarantino, Carlos Marcella, and two or three other mob upper echelon guys got caught bribing a judge. And they all went to jail. And that's where they got Marcellas talking about killing Kennedy.

But you know, the family feud, right, between the Kennedys and the Marcellas. You know, Bobby Kennedy deported him. Yes. And then he snuck back in the country. and it started a real rift between them. So when you're sitting in prison at Terminal Island... That's where I met all the mob guys that I know that I have relationships with.

Did you feel like you were a criminal? Do you consider yourself a criminal? Or did you back then? Well, I consider myself an outlaw. And you have your description of an outlaw as a criminal. You know, I have a different description. I'm more like a, you know, Billy, the kid or Wild Bill Hickok or something to that effect.

You know, I think you see me more as a John Dillinger type or something. You know, I see John Dillinger as a criminal. I think, I guess somebody that commits crime for a living back then, I know you're retired, you're out of the game, you're out of the life for the most part, the culture. But back in the day, the, you're run, you know, when you were around real bosses, like criminal bosses, Did you feel like you were one of them? Sure. Did you say, oh, I'm persecuted.

I'm the head of an organization that's not a criminal organization. I felt that I had a smart ass mouth. And I had, I dish it out. And my mom, I used to say, you know, if you're going to dish it out, you better be ready to take it, son. And that's kind of the way my mom and dad were. You know, there was no ratting. There was no whining.

And, of course, my wife says I whine now. because of my bones hurt. But I'm being a smart ass. But no, I didn't complain. You know, I take my medicine and I'll tell you something else. I've never went to prison for anything I've ever done. I went to prison for what people perceived or said I did with them. The informants put me in prison.

They've never busted me for anything I've ever done. and I'm not ready to make a confessional. I want you to know that. I'll ask you broadly, have you done criminal acts that you have not been prosecuted for, that could have put you in prison? Well, I think that you're in a war that lasts for 30 years.

With the Mongols? Probably some point in time, the Mongols, the outlaws, the banditos in Europe, you know. And what would some theoretically, are we talking about like

possession of an illegal gun possession of explosives you know there was a garage we used to call it the armory in Los Angeles and it had 20 excuse me 2,000 pounds of dynamite it had

we had a British anti-tank gun which I used to laugh because I used to ask the president of old man John I go the Mongols don't even have a tank John just in case they get a tank But we had an anti-tank gun there just in case. We had lays.

We were making silencers. You know, I got pretty good at making silencers. I, you know, there was guns down there. People filing numbers off guns. I mean, so, yeah. I mean, there was, you know. Was that used, like, communally between the chapters in Southern California? Like, if you needed to get strapped.

Well, we kind of had our own. Each charter kind of had their own deal. You know, we're pretty, you know, it's interesting to say that. because it's like I don't want anybody to know outside of my small circle of people what I had going or what was really going on. You know, and, you know, Ray Glore got busted. He was the leader in Los Angeles. Poor leadership on that with this guy. So he gets busted.

That's a whole, I don't know if you know the dynamics of everything that went on in Los Angeles. The Orange County police put an informant in the middle of Los Angeles. And people are being bombed. People are being machine gunned. And the Orange County police won't share it with the LAPD because they have their own investigation going. They're trying to stop the Hells Angels from moving into Orange County and creating a drug network down there. So they target this guy, Ray Glore, the president of Los Angeles. Ray gets busted.

So he tells two guys, go to the armory and clean it out. Get all the dynamite out there, out of there, get all the weapons out of there, the machine guns out of there. The guys go over to move the explosives and whatnot. And the one guy gets out of the car, walks up to the door, sticks a key in, and all hell breaks loose. As soon as he sticks the key in the door, apparently Ray had flipped. Right, yeah, right. And, you know, of course, the cops busted all those, the armament.

Yeah, yeah. But we got a young lawyer and he tells the district attorney, goes, well, what was in that garage when they got there? There was nothing in the garage because they cleaned it out for public safety. So he was walking in to an empty garage. Oh, shit. So, you know. Yeah, but you expose the rat.

Yeah. And he died later that night. somebody walked up to his front door, knocked on his door, he answered the door, and they, they shot him a bunch of times. And he, you know, he died. That's still an unsolved murder, you know. So do you think because now I kind of see J. Dobbins point, why the ATF, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms.

I'm losing you, then, no. No, you're not. Well, you had me. Yeah, you're losing me a little bit. Now I'm like, okay. Well, I have no opinion one way or the other. I'm just saying I can now see why the hell's angels as the dead. decades go on and you guys are strapped like this, you have the feds now.

The feds are interested. Yeah, normally now it's not- Public safety, man. It's not local pigs that really investigate you guys anymore. It's federal. It's the ATF. It's the FBI. I'm laughing because I haven't heard that term pigs in here.

It's funny, right? It's Vietnam. Yeah. It's a throwback. So, you know, that brings down heat and now you have- Steve, let me, can I interject something here? Yeah, of course. This is what I see criminal outlaw.

Got a garage full of weapons to defend ourselves because I'm a outlaw. Now, if I want to become a criminal, maybe I go over to the other garage that's five blocks away from the armory that's full of cranked. And go in there and go, hey, man, I'm going to jump in the game. Let me get a pound from you. Now, that's what I see as a criminal. And maybe I'm a hypocrite, but that's how I see it. The guy got shot to death later that night. That would be a criminal act.

Well, I don't know. He broke the code. I see. See, I'm a real outlaw at heart, man. You know, I really mean that, you know. You know, was Billy the kid? Was he in it? Yeah.

Who was in charge of that town? That town, they were fighting for control of that town. right in uh Lincoln right do you know much about the Lincoln County Wars no oh Kansas no New Mexico

oh wow there's a lot of Lincoln's yeah well no I don't know about I'd rather have Benjamins and Lincoln's yeah same rather Bitcoin yeah well I don't know much about that stuff you know I'm an old man

okay I see what I'm saying I'm not trying to be sarcastic but that's the mentality yeah wow it's fascinating I understand what you're saying. It's a little arc. Well, one would argue. I'm 80 years old, man.

I was going to say archaic. I was going to say archaic. I know what you were going to say. Because now I'm like some of the informants that testified against me. I'm reading your mind. You know, I had an informant say that. Yeah. He said, did Mr. Christie order you to do that?

No, he didn't. But I knew what he was thinking. Yeah. And I said, well, what is Mr. Christie thinking right now? So you're almost like you purport to be almost a vigilante organization when you say we catch enter a safe. I don't know about a vigilante. But that's essentially. I'd rather be cold and out while than a vigilante.

Right. But that's what you do when you say we keep the streets of interest. Charles Bronson, I did like him in what the hell was, Death Wish. Yeah, Death Wish was sick. And, you know, Charles Bronson was a good guy. You know, it's funny with the Hells Angels, we have all this kind of like connection. to these movie people and these

bands and and whatnot. You know, it just, it was crazy. Because people, I don't know what it is. People want,

people really look up to that. People, this is why this show is so popular is because most ordinary people, law-abiding citizens, are fascinated by the outlaw, the person that has the gall to stand apart from society

and society's law. But you would say, well, in a democratic society, the law has to apply to everybody equally. And the monopoly on violence has to be monopolized by the government because then you have people getting shot in the head because they were decided to show the government where a bunch of illegal weapons are that we're going to go blow people up illegally. Right. And you can't have that. So that would be the argument. Yeah, I understand the argument. You know, I'm certainly aware of the argument.

Yeah. And do you think the Hells Angels now are trying to clean up the brand or move the brand towards a much more legitimate image? I think they're doing what they want. I don't think they care. I think there's a whole new. a group of individuals in the club. I think the club's changed direction. I'll be careful.

I won't say lost direction. I'll just say they've changed direction. You know, maybe I'm not relating to them anymore. You know, it was very profound when I, you know, when I made it my mind to leave the club. But you're supposed to be allowed to leave the club. Well, they don't like it. Right.

Well, that's what they, in the charter or the rules, you're supposed to be allowed to leave whenever you want. And you keep your patch. No, you do not keep your patch back. You got to give all your indicia back. But let me tell you something. Like, I went to the club and told them I was quitting. What year was this?

This was 2011. And I said, and, you know, people said, why, why? And I suffered later for what I had to say that night. I left on good terms. I was in good standing. I was basically like retired. Yeah. They don't have an official retirement, but, you know, people go, I retire.

Yeah. And people said, why? you're leaving and I said because we're fighting and I named all the clubs we were fighting and I included law enforcement in that I said we're fighting wars on five fronts and I said but aside from that I go we have become the people rebelled against and I go I don't want to be part of that what does that mean who rebelling against we rebelled against the we had become the people we rebelled against but who were you so who are those people well I think the man and the hell's angels are very we're very similar at that point in time for me so but you felt like you were rebelling against the system we built against

society right we didn't have any rules i mean we we had a morality we did what was morally correct for that outlaw unwritten rule standards you know a lot of people i've you know gotten discussions with people and they think that's a ludicrous statement you know no they they be in the hell's angels and I was part of it at that time had become the people were rebelled against. I wanted to be an outlaw. I wanted to be free. Wow. I wanted to walk away.

And I did. So you felt like there were too many rules now. Yeah, it was just, it was too restricting, you know. I know what morality is. I know what's right. And I know what's wrong. I don't need all these rules to tell me. Well, what were some of those rules, those new rules that were restricting you?

Oh, you just couldn't do this. You couldn't do that. had to ask permission for this. You know, I don't ask permission from, for anything. Can you know more specific? Well,

I don't know. What's that? Yeah, you know, this is, this is, this is very profound. We had a guy

get kicked out of the club. Good brother. It was bullshit. He got kicked out of the club. He wasn't part of Sunny's camp. He got kind of pushed out. He made a mistake. and I'm not going to get into who it was.

So I come to the meeting and I got an argument with another officer because I wouldn't defriend him on Facebook. Oh my God. That's the gayest thing I've ever heard. I thought you guys were supposed to be bikers. Okay, there you go. You guys are supposed to be cranked up fucking tough bikers?

I said, are you fucking kidding me? I said, we're supposed to be the most notorious outlaw bike club in the world. And you are talking about you didn't defriend this guy when we kicked him out of the club. And I mean, there were people that said, well, you've got to defriend you, man. You're going to be in jeopardy. And, you know, that was kind of the beginning of the end for me. I just thought, man, you know, social media is that powerful?

They're even dictating the hell's angels, you know, I don't want this getting back to what's his name. I think he's got a big enough ego as it is, a Facebook guy. Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, I don't want Zuckerberg knowing. That's such a boomer thing. You guys are still using Facebook and there's gossip on Facebook. It's so funny. It's like my parents.

Yeah, it's crazy. Wow. So, I mean, that was one of the things. I mean, you know, it's a number of things. And, you know. I'm hearing that it didn't feel very rock and roll anymore. No, it wasn't rock and roll anymore. Yeah.

I understand that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm a guy that used to jump on his bike and, you know, I ride to Oakland to party and jump on my bike and come home. I certainly, you know, better living through chemistry, if you will, to get there and back. You know, yeah, whatever it may be. I never like crank. I like Coke.

I, you know, snort a lot of blow during the 80s. Right. Never sold it, though. Well, I think it. couple of times. I'd like, you know, so I give somebody a gram and they, you know, they'd give me a hundred bucks or so. But it wasn't organized. You weren't. No, no, no. But I see where, I see your point overall, though. I, it was time to move on. And now you've kind of been like, I don't know, I don't pay attention to the, the gossip. Well, I'm supposed to be,

you're supposed to be out bad or something? I'm out bad. Uh, nobody's allowed to talk to me. Have they befriended you on Facebook? Totally defriended me. And I, I found it ironic and, you know, the day I quit the club I'm I have pretty good social media following you probably do as well and the day I quit the club

you know I immediately lost 700 followers that were no longer allowed to follow me and I you know I felt the whole thing kind of humorous ludicrous

ludicrous angry I was angry about it all those things all wrapped into one but You know, I'm out bad. Sonny's tried to start a rumor that I had become a government informant, you know. And, you know, my answer to the hell's angels and to the world is, if I had become a government informant, you know, all the top dogs would probably be in prison, you know. You know, a lot of dirt.

Yeah. And, you know, that's what the Fed stole me. You know, they wanted me to flip, you know. After you left. After I left, yeah. They indicted me. Yeah. Several, you know, weeks after I left.

Over what? Can you explain that? Yeah, they said I ordered a firebombing of the two tattoo shop competitions in town. It was arson, interfering in interstate commerce. I don't know where they came up with that. Yeah, so you had the most popular tattoo shop in town for a long time. 35 years. And then now there's new tattoo shops in town, and you're accused of basically, yeah, firebombing. Firebombing, yeah.

Well, were they firebombed? They were firebond. and, you know, my... I wonder who did that. Well, I'm going to talk about it. My defense team, like, I wanted to tell a judge, it's obvious I had nothing to do with it because they were still standing. They were firebombed unsuccessfully.

Whoever did it was an amateur, and they threw the Molotov cocktail in there, and they didn't mix it right, and it flashed out. Yeah. The explosion put out the fire. I don't know if you know that term or not. But if you had done it, you would have done it. You know how to do it. I would have made it.

It would have burned to the ground. Right. And, you know, of course, my daughter's my lawyer. You know, she's, Jesus Christ, Dad was wrong. And I go, well, but I got to tell you, they were trying to blame me for other firebombings and whatnot. And, you know, Judge Wu, man, a pretty brave guy. He said, well, let me ask you this. He said, did you ever see Mr. Christie walking down the street?

Or do you have any witnesses? that saw him walking down the street with a Molotov cocktail. He said, well, no, Your Honor. And he goes, well, you know, you can't just make this stuff up because it's folklore or it's myth. You know, he goes, oh, come into my courtroom with evidence. And ultimately, you know, the judge said, look, he told the U.S. attorney, this isn't the case you wanted to be. He goes, you want this to be your career case. He goes, this is not it.

He goes, this is a weak case. it's a house and cards and I was being kind of cavalier sitting at the defense table like I thought gee maybe this guy's going to give me

a direct acquittal from the bench or something so you're in trial is this a pretrial motion or you're actually in the trial we're picking the jury and we're getting ready to start

and the jury's picked and then he looks at me and he goes and you Mr. Christie goes God only knows but you've gotten away with the last 40 years. And he goes, I want you guys to go down to Judge Walter's court.

I want you to come back with an agreement, a plea agreement. He goes, let's end this. It was just ridiculous. And, you know, because their best witness is the witness that I just alluded to earlier. Did Mr. Christie, you know, tell you to bomb the tattoo shop, you know, and his, this is part of the record. No, but I knew what Mr. Christie was thinking. You know, he wanted me to fire bomb the tattoo shop.

He's reading my mind. The judge is, Judge Wu's too smart. Judge Wu's gone. So why in the world would you take a plea if you're completely innocent? That 98% conviction rate and count, was count 1 through 8, count 6, 7 and 8, mandatory minimums of life using arson to control some. But that's a very heavy beef with the feds. I think there's somebody right now that rioted. I don't know what the deposition was the outcome,

but they were two lawyers, I think, and one of them was accused of firebombing a police car in New York. Oh, wow. Do you recall this? No. They were looking at life, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's a serious, serious offense.

There's another case on the record. The guy had Asperger's, so that was all taken into consideration. But he firebombed. He was one of these Earth, you know, Earth first guys. And he firebombed a car lot. Yeah. And a lot of that shit used to have it in Portland.

Yeah, he's looking at life. A lot of anarchists. Yes. Yeah, he was looking at life. I was in prison with a lot of firebugs. They don't fuck around with the fire. They don't like bombings. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think they're more serious about arson than bombings. Because I think arson can get out of control. Right. Yeah. And some of these laws are antiquated. Yeah. And, you know, you got people, a law gets established in 1870 and the whole town's wood, you know.

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I speculate on some of this stuff. So you, you ended up working out a plea? I plead. I pled from zero to five. My daughter put up a hell of a fight. She got, and they don't do this.

And you may know, well, you may not know us because you weren't in the Fed system. but they don't give you credit for house arrest. Oh, shit. My daughter got them to give me two years credit on house arrest, and they sent me to Texas for a year, to prison for a year. So, you know, they wanted three years out of me once we made the deal. And the judge goes, I'm going to give you three years. I'm going to give you the two years on house arrest, and I'm going to give you a year in Texas. And, you know, the U.S. attorney was bummed.

You know, he wanted me to go away forever and be in the papers. Yeah, yeah. So with that said, you're an innocent man, innocent. You're not guilty of this crime. Are you worried now? If somebody gets shot on the streets of Ventura, are you worried that somebody's going to be like, hey, George Christie said I did it? I mean, it seems like persecution. Well, you know, perhaps it is.

But, you know. You get the Donald Trump over here. Judge, well, he's got more felonies than me. I'm a little upset. Yeah. Should run for, we should run for his captain. cabinet, you know. Well, I'd be more than happy to take over the Bureau of Prisons for it. If he's out there, I mean, I've said some, look, I think Donald Trump's getting a raw deal personally. I think

they're picking on him because of his, just his whole posture and whatnot. But I think he's not doing much more than a lot of other politicians are doing. No, of course not. But that's my point is like you, if you can just be sent to prison based off of your reputation, which it sounds like this is what Will you happen? Are you not worried about being in Ventura still? No. And having this happen to you again? I'm a brave man.

All right. So, but what's interesting is, you know what the allocution is? Mm-hmm. Well, in the federal system, they like you to get up there and admit your crime. Right. It's like a proffering. Yeah, confess your crime kind of. And, you know, I wrote a, you know, I said, Your Honor, the man, law enforcement,

is pursuing no longer exists. He's vanished like the outlaw of old. You know, I went into all this. And at the end, I said, I'm not guilty of this crime, but I said, I will accept responsibility for this crime because I was the leader. And I said, I'm guilty of poor leadership. Wow. And he accepted it.

He goes, he goes, okay. And, you know, it's interesting, the U.S. attorney told my daughter, he goes, Jesus Christ, he goes, you kick my ass. with that statement. They thought my daughter had written the statement. I wrote the statement. And my daughter said, no, my dad kicked your ass. Because he wrote that statement.

But, you know, basically what I did is I accepted responsibility for poor leadership. And I never ordered, and Judge Wu, I think, agreed with me. They had me saying, you know, stay away from those tattoo shops. I was telling my guys in meetings, stay away from the tattoo shops. Don't buy this, you know, bomb those tattoo shops. Oh, you were saying don't bomb the tattoos. Yes, I said, we have to learn to live with these guys.

The tattoo business has now changed. You know, people were afraid to come to town and open the tattoo shop. And all of a sudden, you know how popular tattooing got. Of course. Yeah, it was just out of control. And, you know, I... Ventura is growing. It's more money that's coming into it now, more yuppies and things like that.

You know, the interesting thing. I knew I would survive. And I sold a tattoo shop. in 2013 and the tattoo shops that's now 2024. The tattoo shops are still thriving. The other shops are out of business. Right. Yeah.

You know, they went out of business. Yeah. The market decides. The market decides. So it was your, it was you, so basically your underlings or the people in your chapter. They took it upon themselves. They took exceptions.

With the shops coming to town. Okay. Because they felt that just on our reputation alone, that they, that they shouldn't come there out of respect. So did they actually get the person? Yes, they did. So how much time did he end up doing? Nothing.

Because he ratted. He ratted on me. Of course. If they're mad about Facebook, they're not going to take a charge. Yeah. God. Well, okay. So I understand that.

So it just seems like, just like society, the hell's angels have just gotten soft. Well, that's your words. I'm not going to say that because, you know, I stand on that. I still see them around town from time to time. And I'm not challenging anybody. but, you know, some people would say I got soft, but, you know, I don't see myself that way. I'm just as much as an outlaw today as I was in 1966 when I bought my first motorcycle. I have a romantic vision in my head.

You know, I put that stuff on paper now. You know, I've got three books out, writing another book, writing a book, a very intense book about my relationship with Sunny Barger, you know. And I think there's a lot of people waiting for it. Can you go into that? Maybe I tease that book a little bit. What is that about? Because we didn't really get to your relationship with Sunny. Well, you know.

And how that rift occurred. Sonny, you know, it was a love-hate relationship. And Sunny comes back from prison. He immediately, he does his time in Folsom. He comes back. He immediately gets recode by the government. and in the middle of all that or just prior to it, he gets in a knockdown, drag-out power play

with a guy, Sergey Walton. And him and Sergei are fighting for control. You know, Sergei wants to be the new president in Oakland. He was a very strong guy, real stone gangster guy. Talk about a gangster. I mean, he was a gangster. He used to carry a Mac 10 inside his vest and whatnot. In the midst of all this,

you know, Sunny's fighting, Sergey ultimately wins, takes power over again, beats two RICO trials, you know, and ultimately, what happens is he gets diagnosed

with throat cancer and they don't think he's going to make it, has his voice box cut out. So he turns his power over to Irish O'Farrell, who is now an Oakland member. He was a former Los Angeles member with me, but he's an Oakland member now. He turns it over to him, and he concedes that I'm kind of the new voice of the Southern California

Hells Angels, and he relinquishes his power to us. And after a couple of years, something happens, he realizes he's not going to die. And, you know, anybody that's ever relinquished in their power, it's very difficult to get it back. Right. And so that started a conflict between him and I. And I'm getting into things that I've never, you know, my first book exile on Front Street was a very linear story about, you know, my time. But I didn't get into the complex issues and the day-to-day workings of myself as a leader and other leaders. And that's what this book's about.

Sonny wants to take his power back. And it's a power struggle. Okay. Irish winds up getting murdered. By? Well, by the AB. Your brotherhood. In prison or on the streets? On the street.

Is there a relationship between the Aryan Brotherhood and the Hells Angels on the street? Well, in terms of like alliances? No. No, I never saw that. You know, people try to say that. If you wanted to, if I, you wanted to say they were aligned with anybody, and I wanted to say this earlier. but I found that the Hells Angels were more friends with the Mexican Mafia than anyone.

I became very good friends with Mike Isson. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. Look him up. His name is Mike Acha Isom. You know, he was a very powerful figure in the MA. And it's funny we were talking one time about what was the attraction we had said earlier. you know, what was the attraction of these musicians and rock stars and movie stars and public figures hanging out with the Hells Angels.

Mike, you know, we were sitting in the clubhouse. This is after I figured out who Mike was. I didn't know who he was at first. And, you know, then I realized this guy's head of one of the top three guys in the Mexican mafia. But he said it's like holding a rattlesnake, George. you just don't know if it's going to bite you or not. And that's how he explained the interest and the traction of all the celebrities.

Right, right. Because I was really close with a lot of celebrities at the time. You know, I don't know if you remember Mickey Rourke as an actor. Of course. Yeah, Mickey Rourke and I were like Ace Duce, you know. So you were like a celebrity in your own right, in the underworld culture. Perhaps, yeah. I mean, it sounds better when you say it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're a humble guy. I like that. But, you know, I became friends when I was in 1986 when I got arrested on that ordering somebody's murder. That's where I met all the wise guys, you know. Yeah. I'm down there with Michael Frenchese, Rosario, Gambino. All on Terminal Island.

Yeah, we're all on Terminal Island. and, you know, Rosario's cooking every Saturday for us and we're having these big spaghetti feast. It's not like it wasn't good fellows. They didn't have lobster on, you know, on ice. There's no bubbly. Yeah, but, I mean, we had clam, you know, canned clams. I mean, people were bringing stuff in for it.

We had a telephone buried in the wall, you know, one of those big block ones. Yeah. And we had a lot of things going. And it's funny, I met a lot of wise guys down there. Like I said, I had that Sam Serentino and I had a long discussion. about the war in Los Angeles, how it really interfered in things. My initial lawyer on my case was Alan Kaplan and Norm Green, who had just come off the Stardust Skimming case.

I don't know if you're familiar with. You know, you've seen the movie Casino? Yeah. Well, that's what that was. That's what that was. Oh, the Stardust, of course. That was the Casino. Yeah, it was a mob casino.

Yeah. Yeah. It's where I met in Las Vegas. I met Anthony Spalachro. And he came and confronted me, wanted to know what the fuck I was doing in Las Vegas. I mean, he came at me really aggressive. And he's just his little guy.

And I respectfully got back in his face. And I said, hey, man, we're just passing through. What's your problem? And we started talking. And him and I actually spent the evening together. And at the time, I didn't know who Tony Splatro was. Of course, I find out later. you know he's you know he's dead then did you hear that anecdote from j daubbins when he was undercover

uh he was with uh like a chandler or phoenix chapter of the hell's angels uh as a hangaround or a prospect and they heard that the mongols were driving through Vegas right and so he the banditos and without permission and so that he was ordered he says he was ordered to go shoot at them on site when they drove through Vegas. Now, that to me sounds, is that true? Like, is that something that the chapter president would order? I mean, that's a serious. That's a serious order.

That's a federal and as criminals you get. And I'm going to tell you, a lot of people ran their charge is a lot different than I ran Ventura. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you, you know, we were known. as a very ignatic charter. People in the Hells Angels would ask me what was going on. I'd tell them none of their fucking business.

And this is very interesting. You're going to enjoy this. I get a phone call during this particular envelope of time, I'm trying to stop a war in the Scandinavian countries between the Hells Angels and the Banditos. Wow. They got beef all the way over in Scandinavia. No way.

So I get a phone call from George Wex. The international leader of the banditos. And he says to me, he goes, I just got information from the feds. You guys got a hit on me. And I didn't know anything about her at the time. But I suspect that's what it was about. Wow. Yeah, it was about him driving through Vegas.

And Jay Dobbins telling, hey, there's been a threat on George Wager's life. George Wagers gets on the phone and asks me, Hey, you know, I thought we were on peace talks. He goes, what the fuck's going on? Yeah. You put a contract on me? I go, George, I don't know anything about it. And I didn't know anything about it.

And that's true, because, again, you guys, what makes you different is that you have no central authority. Correct. Yeah. So, I mean, how are you going to re-go somebody? Right. You know, and, you know, I... So there is a complex, it's a complex issue. So, so it's safe to say, I think...

You know, it's interesting. You've answered a lot of questions today. All right. It seems like there's a real... there's a real glamorous, quasi-legit, maybe even fully or close to fully legit side of the Hells Angels in these affluent places like Ventura, right? I think there is. And then you've got places like dusty New Mexico, Arizona that are just haven for criminals because it's on the border and there's just a lot more people doing dirt. And that's a real, there's a real dark underside to that.

The West Coast has nothing to do it. Okay, let me say something. Okay. I open up a concert promotion business in the mid-80s, early 80s, and, you know, Waylon Jennings, Jerry Garcia, Ricky Nelson, Jug Kershaw, trying to get the chili peppers, but they wouldn't let me bring them because they take their clothes off. Remember how these do that?

But anyways, I've got a thriving concert promotion business going. So I go up to Santa Barbara. I go, I'm going to keep it out of Ventura. So none of the cops take it personal or whatever. So I do all my concerts at the Arlington Theater. And I get a phone call from Metro Media office in Santa Barbara. They run the Arlington Theater. They own the Arlington Theater.

And they want me to come up. They want to talk to me. So I go up there. and the manager of the theater sitting there and with some head for Metro Media, I don't recall. And they go, well, you know, the detectives from Ventura were here. And they said, you're responsible. And they start naming all these murders and this and that.

And they don't think we should do business with you. And I said, well, what are you guys going to do? And they knew that, you know, I wasn't going to let them get away with that. I would have sued them or whatever. But they were very kind to me. They said, we told them the truth. We told them that you were probably one of the best concert promoters up here. You were probably the most honest.

You never argued or tried to cheat us out of any money. That's real classical in the concert promotion. Yeah, of course. And they said, we're going to continue to do business with you. But what we'd like you to do is we'd like you to perhaps purchase the Ventura Theater. The Venture Theater was owned by Metro Media at the time. I could have bought the Venture Theater for $350,000. I missed it just by a couple of weeks.

Dr. I Lardo, a local doctor that was a good friend of mine, bought it in Ventura. The word got out that it was for sale. So I continue with my concert promotion business, and this is burning some of these cops ass. So what do they do? They go to every one of my clients, and I named the clients earlier,

and I had more clients than that. I can't remember everybody I promoted. They said, if you continue to do business with knockout productions, that was the name of my company, we are going to audit you with an IRS audit.

Jesus. And everybody stepped away but one person, Jerry Garcia. Nice. Jerry Garcia said, fuck them, George. Let him come afterwards.

Because I used to pick Jerry up at the airport when he flew in it down and shit. Yeah. We were friends. And he said, you know, He goes, let him come after us. Everything we're doing is all legal because they had that reputation anyways.

Yeah. Outlaws themselves. Right. Good for him. Yeah. So he stuck with me. And I wound up becoming partners. And when Bill Graham was alive, Bill Graham and I started co-promoting the Jerry Garcia band.

And, you know, went from, you know, a few hundred people to, you know, five, six thousand people were coming to a concert to see his performances. So it sounds like the feds up. there just didn't really have a lot to do. Well, and that's really interesting you say that because I have a friend that's a, I'm not going to mention his name because he's a sergeant down here with the LAPD. He's very high profile. He's part of the union and he's on the news all the time. And he used to come by the clubhouse when he was a kid.

And he grew up, became a cop. And he said to me, because George, why did you move from L.A.? He goes, we wouldn't have paid any attention. In fact, we might have gave you a free rain down there as long as you controlled your sector. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, you don't know. It's a lot more dangerous down here, though. It is a lot more cops.

You know, and, you know, it's funny. I remember years ago, I turned off at Westwood. And I turned the wrong way. And I kept going further and further and further up in South Central. And I had this black gang kind of surround me. Is this the 92 riots? I don't know. This was in the 80s.

And I was coming down to meet Mickey Roart. We were going to, there was a nightclub that was very exclusive. And they changed locations. And nobody knew the location until like two hours before the venue. It was called Rubbers. I don't know if you ever heard of it. No. It was a big deal, you know.

And it was kind of on the... the cusp of taking ecstasy and all that shit. But it was called rubbers and it was secret nightclubs and all the celebrities would go and whatnot.

And they surrounded me and they go, what are you doing down here in our area? And they were really cool to me. I go, where the fuck am I? They go, you're in the wrong part of town, son. And they go, you can turn around and go that way.

Wow. You know, and I turned around and went the opposite way. But, you know, it, you know, I don't know if these guys were bloods or crips or who they were. But, you know, our colors were red. So I don't know. Yeah. I don't even remember what these guys were. Times have changed now.

You ask a white person what they're doing down here. They're moving in. Yeah. Well, it's, you know. Well, I want to, that really, that was something. Well, I hope I wanted to answer your questions honestly, and I think I did. I mean, I'm certainly not going to admit to any crimes per se, but, you know, I see myself as an outlaw. I'm not a criminal.

Yeah, yeah. I really do. Well, if the judge is going to sit there and say, you said yourself, we can't assume that law enforcement is stupid. They know what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. But if the judge, Mr. Wu, the point. poor Mr. Wu looked at you and said, you've gotten away with a lot over the years.

Then, I don't know. I take some, that's credible. And there was some real substance to what he said. And I respected him for what he said. And I thought it was really balzy for him to say that in an open courtroom. Well, clearly, he thinks that you were a criminal, that you did get away with a lot of criminal activity. I think probably you did. but I think you did a good job of,

and you actually answered my question about the structure of the Hells Angels. And that is one of less organization and less conspiratorial mindedness than the media and law enforcement paints you guys out to be. Well, you know, let me say something in closing. Sure.

So I go, if that's what we're doing if we're closing. Yeah, we're going to move over to the Patreon after this. So I'm down in Terminal Island. I'm meeting all these mob guys. They're all giving me their, you know, their little club numbers. You know, they have their clubs. Social clubs. They have all their social clubs.

I've got all their numbers. I've got their personal numbers. I've got Rosario Gambino's phone number. I've got Tommy Gambino's, his son, who later becomes a mob captain down there or something. I know Tommy. And so my house gets raided. and this will give you some idea, do cops take my Rolodex?

You know? And I think you were making a comment earlier about a Rolodex or something. I don't know if, and maybe it was just in passing, but they take my Rolodex and they go through it and they find all these social club numbers

and all these guys, all these numbers out of New York. And what do they do? They call the newspapers up. And they go, you know, George Christie is not a criminal. I'm using, they said,

what's he doing? with all these mob guys and these social clubs numbers in his roll of decks. And the newspaper called me. And they said, hey, George, we had a question for you. You know, you got raided. They're going through your roller decks. You got all these mob-made guys in your roller decks. What do you say to that?

And I said, well, this is what I say to that. I said, I also have David Caradines, Sean Penns, Mickey, works and I said that doesn't make me an actor yeah right that was their that was their bite you know they you know so you know it's a cat and mouse game yeah you know it's like they were mad that I beat that case yeah and they wanted to turn me up uh so they you know they call the newspaper and tell them is that part of their investigation to do that yeah no is it or isn't it it seems punitive yeah absolutely seems punitive yeah and I you know and I don't I cry about it? No, I took it and used it against him. You know, it's, you know, ultimately,

I carried the torch in the Olympics, and do you know what the final outcome was, right? I carry the torch. I was a big hero. I put the ATF in their place, but about four weeks after I carried the torch, somebody threw a hand grenade in the clubhouse. And the hand grenade came from the armory in Akron where the ATF was stationed. Wow. I had the spoon. I took the spoon. Yeah.

I had the numbers traced back and they traced right back. Holy shit. So, you know. Did the grenade go off? Yeah. Put two people in the hospital. Oh, my God. When I held an impromptu press conference that morning in the L.A. Times and the other, you know,

papers were there. and they said, George, do you have any suspects? And I said, I have a long list. And I said, the ATFs right at the top. And, you know, my position has always been. Not that the ATF was ordered to do that. What we had was a couple of rogue agents. Sure.

Through that hand grenade in the clubhouse. Wow. Because they raided the clubhouse two days later with a warrant because they knew there were two illegal shotguns in the clubhouse. Yeah. And what they did was they were trying to put anybody that had been in the clubhouse when the grenade went off and the shotguns were there. They were going to be from felons in possession of a weapon. And two guys got indicted.

Wow. And they went to prison. Over those shotguns. Man. So, you know, it's a cap-mouse game. You were in Cold War with the feds for three decades. It's, that is crazy. That is crazy.

That's so disgusting. It's the reason why people... It's the reason why Trump is more popular after getting indicted because it's an overreach of the federal government. Let me say something. The things I said years ago, people now go, man, you know, they've been doing that. They did that to you for years, George. And it's absolute truth. You know, I've never had to embellish.

Didn't have to embellish. They were giving me the ammunition with the facts. Just nobody believed you because you were hells angel. Of course, I didn't believe. And we didn't have social media either. So all we had were we had to take the mainstream media at face value. I have to laugh when you say social media because I'm thinking about, you know, defriending. Yeah.

I don't know who I'm going to defriend next. Yeah, it's certainly got to take the good with the bad in our new society. Well, that is fascinating. Where can I get your books? Well, I've got a website, georgechristy.com, you know, Amazon. Yeah. I, you know. And then you're.

podcast. My podcast is, speak of the devil, it's on Patreon. It's, you know, monthly subscription, not much, $4.99. There's over 50 episodes up now. 35 of those episodes are very, very, like, professionally done. The rest of them are kind of guerrilla-type stuff. You know, Beverly and I are cutting things up, answering questions people send to me. Yeah, Beverly, they got a hold of your wife. Your wife is a man, she's an old lady, ride or die, right?

Is that a term, an official term, old lady? Yeah, she's my old lady. Okay. Yeah, sorry. Oh, man, see, now you're a dog. I'm glad you said it, man, not me. I'm in the dog house, dude. You're getting laid tonight.

I'm the one in the dog house. You don't get no accent, are you? You know, so, you know, they can do that. I've got also the last American outlaws a documentary about my trial. 2011. Oh, I'm going to go watch that. It's up on the Patreon channel. You know, you subscribe, you get to watch it. Yeah. Outlaw Chronicles is another show. Yeah. I did on the history channel. I mean, there's stuff out there I've been doing. I laugh. Some people say, well, you're an overnight sensation. No, I've been doing this. You know, I started doing media stuff in the Hells Angels in

1980. It's been a long haul. Yeah. Yeah. I've got the wrinkles to prove it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get there someday. I'll get, I'll get there someday. Wear them proudly. Yeah, for sure. I did a picture in the paper after I beat my case in 2002. And it was a really unflattering picture, you know, heavy wrinkles in my face. And this is when you could write in to the paper and, you know. I remember that. Yeah. And you could make comments. And somebody wrote, you want to take some of that. god damn illegal drug money and get yourself a facelift and i you know i laugh because i answer my hate mail yeah but it has to be has to have some substance it's got to be good

yeah it's got to be good i just don't answer anything those are like those are the earliest like comments yeah that's what a youtube comment is now it's it was that was what that was back in the day it was writing into the paper yeah saying you stink and and uh are you wrinkled So on YouTube, can they just kick you off of there? I'm about ready to get on YouTube, but I have concerns about it. No, no, they can't just kick you off there. You know what? We'll talk about this off mic.

We'll talk about business off mic. Georgechristy.com. Go get those books. And yeah, I've really, thank you. This was an honor. I like the heart of the questions, the better, man. I like it. I try to hold people to task.

Well, I see that. I'm glad you're not a prosecutor. Exactly. No, I'm no rat. All right. Thank you so much, guys. Patreon.com slash the Connect show for more George Christie. We will see you later.

Thank you.