The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - The Flores Twins - The Truth About The Brothers Who Brought Down El Chapo | The Connect

Episode Date: November 4, 2023

Charlie Webster, renowned journalist and host of the successful Surviving El Chapo series, joins the show to discuss the Flores Twins. She spent years interviewing them and getting deep insight to the two brothers that became some of the largest kingpins in the world and then making the shocking decision to work with American feds to take down one of the most wanted men on the globe.  Go Support Charlie! Surviving El Chapo Podcast: https://lionsgatesound.com/shows/surviving-el-chapo  IG: https://www.instagram.com/charliewebster/  This Episode Is Brought To You By The Following Sponsor: MOOD: https://hellomood.co/  Promo Code: CONNECT20, CONNECTFREE Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6mc4qAxpztC6D20wzeS91C Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And they're like, Chapo's got him. Today's guest is Charlie Webster, the host of the hit podcast series Surviving El Chapo, which she co-created with 50 Cent. Surviving El Chapo is about the Flores brothers, the twins from Chicago who ended up becoming Choppos' main North American distributors in the mid-2000s. They were the ones who decided to become informants

and were the key witnesses in the trial that put Choppel away for life. This is a fascinating story. She spent years interviewing the brothers for this podcast series, and she has insight that nobody else has access to, and she's here today. Without further ado, I give you Charlie Webster of the Surviving El Choppo series right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. But the million dollar question is what you asked.

It's the question is, was it worth it? Was it worth it? That's when I see the lights behind me start to flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it. I was driving like my life depended on it. Then I parked the car, hopped out, closed the door, and I started running. And he pulls out a burner, shang.

It's like six inches. And he passes it to me. And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I made it out of that place alive. First of all, thank you so much for coming. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I want to know, first of all, how a beautiful Australian woman falls into a project like this. Well, can I just correct you? Because I'm not Australian. Sure. I'm English. Ah, I was 50-50. And... I thought I heard an error, like an error when I was listening to the episode yesterday.

And that seems to be sometimes the problem in America. is people think, oh, well, she's got a different accent. Australian, England, are they just the same? Well, that's what it is. You come to America. America fulfills your dreams, and, you know, you get asked ignorant questions. Maybe not, because maybe I had my dreams fills in England, which is why I then got offered a job in America.

Is that, did you get this project while you were in England? Yes, I did. Wow. Wow. You're kidding. I'm English, and I filled my dream. in England. Are you going to stay here or are you going to go back? What do you think? Do you like here enough? A million dollar question. Well, both countries are in trouble. Both countries

are interesting. Yeah. And I mean, I'm really proud to be from England, not Australia. Sorry. Although there's nothing wrong with Australia or Australians. Australians are bad at Brits. And I don't know, L.A. is a really interesting place. I think culturally, I mean, I'm taking this conversation down a totally different route. But I think culturally, you wouldn't believe how different Brits and Americans are. Yeah. Like, we might think we speak the same language, but I'm not even sure we do sometimes. Well, you guys are much more proper.

You guys are much more guarded. I think that's a perception of America. That's just a perception, right? For sure. That's just stereotypical because I could just say, I'm not going to say anything because this is an American audience. Maybe so like, yeah, but you could say the same, you know, you could say English and like more reserved and more proper and you could say Americans are loud and, you know, it's their very stereotypes, right? We absolutely are.

I think, because my family is all from England and they moved to Canada. So that's where we come from. But you thought I was Australian. Right. I don't care. I might just like, throw the whole episode, just dig you for that? So yeah. Because, you know, English people have sarcasm.

For sure, but you guys are passive aggressive. And you give that to the Canadians. That comes from the crown. That's a fact. I don't think we're passive aggressive. I think my straight talking. Oh, yeah. No, no, no.

You guys bottle it up. You're, you know, you're nice and proper. But then at the same time, you'll be colonizing, you know, a diamond mine in Africa. You know what I mean? Oh, my God. Or you'll be doing some naughty things to the Indians. I won't say anything about what America did. Oh, no, no.

But our time's coming too. Our time's coming too, which is a fact. You know what I mean? But how did you get the subject matter, you know, drugs and crime? Is this always been a passion of yours? Or, you know, how did you meet 50 Cent? How did you meet the Flores twins? I mean, because we have connections doing this show, but not like, you know, getting a hold of these cats.

So, I mean, I'm a journalist. So I think first and foremost, like, to me, I'm interested in various different topics. And I think it's not necessarily that, I mean, I have my own, it was very interesting to do this project because I have my own opinion and my own family experience to do with drugs, which I had, you know, I did talk to the Flores twins about and a private conversation and a little bit that we recorded because I think I challenged them on their view, which we can get into about the fact that, well, they did. didn't kill anyone and I was like, well, you know, indirectly it did. And it was really interesting this thing called cognitive dissonance, which you might be familiar about maybe through your own past, where it's like you can convince yourself that it's not as bad as what you're actually doing. And I think what really interests me, and I'll explain how I will answer your questions,

but what really interests me is not necessarily drugs or crime, but human behavior. Which then feeds into both of those things anyway, ultimately. Whether you look at it from drug dealing or whether you look at it from actually consuming drugs or how you end up in those situations, a lot of it is from your past, from childhood, trauma, you know, difficulties and, you know, human behavior or fall into those things. Like I'm not from a privileged background. I'm from a working class background in anything. England. So, okay, check this out. Check this out. And that's where the mistake comes from because you don't have a London accent. No, I don't. I'm from the north. Drugs. You're from the north. You sound like Top Boy. That's why you thought I was Australian. That's right. I swear to God, that's a closer,

to me, that's closer to Australian. But have you seen Top Boy? Of course I am. Sort boy. Yeah, you remind me the cats in Birmingham and up there in. Peaky blinders, maybe. Exactly. Exactly. I'm like, well, I'm not from Birmingham, but I'm from even further up. Wow, what's the town call? Well, I'm from Yorkshire, which is the county. And the city I'm from is called Sheffield.

Yeah, and that's... Which was, like, known for, like, steel and industry. It's a bit like the equivalent of, like, a Pittsburgh. Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit, something like that. Mining, town, steel. And is that all gone? Is that industry all been exported, like, the way in America, they're all... A lot of it, yeah, which caused, like, mass...

We're going right around the houses, but mass unemployment. Yeah. And that breeds drug dealing, drug use, depression, weather doesn't help. Yeah, the weather doesn't help. It's not got nice weather from. It rains a lot and it's cold. But there's sometimes sunshine.

Can I tell you my misgivings? My, this is, I immediately, when your team reached out wanting to have you on, I immediately got a visceral reaction as a former drug dealer. Because the Flores twins, because the Flores twins are rats at the end of the day. I disagree. Okay. That's what we're going to do. So I... So what was your visceral reaction? Sickening. I was sickening because I lost a small part of my life to rats, to people that

were in the game selling drugs. It was all good until they got caught and they couldn't handle it. So they felt like they had to take me down. Now, that's on a real reduced scale. I get that. But it wasn't them. Like, I'll, I'd love to get in this. conversation with you. Because, so my thought on that is, well, they weren't to blame because you lost part of your life because of your own actions. So isn't it taking responsibility for what you did? Yes, of course. I have to, everybody doesn't matter what kind of injustice is done to somebody, you still have to take responsibility for it. I understand that. But my point is the Flores twins made tens and tens of millions of dollars, thanks to cartels in Mexico.

Is even more than that. Okay, great. Hundreds of millions. They probably profited. I mean, they made them billions, but they probably profited hundreds of millions. We don't know if the government got all that money. Just because they told you, hey, we don't have any more of it.

They could own property all over Mexico. They could have money buried. I don't care what they say. And look, it all works out for them. They get to go take everybody else down. I don't think it really does. Okay, so that's not the story. That's my surface.

And that's what's so fascinating about this show because going to your original question, and I want to hear more about, because I'd love to talk about cooperation. Yeah. Because I don't think it's what people think it is. And I don't think it's even what you think it is if you have a perception that it's about ratting. Yeah. Because one of the things they say about cooperation is when you're in prison, you either, you're either, there's two prisoners, you either cooperate or you wish you'd cooperate.

Right. And there's two type of prisoners. For sure. But just going back to what you said, that isn't the story. And that's what makes this so fascinating. Because when I started to talk to the Flores twins, I spent a lot of time to get to know them as people. So, and you know, I approach it as a journalist.

So I'm not here being, you know, being like, oh, like so empathetic where I'm just one side. but for me to approach it as like a drug cartel story is one-sided and it's actually not telling the truth of this story. So I spent six months at least getting to know the Flores twins and the family and before I even pressed record so I could understand what this story was because to me it's lazy if I'd had just done a drug cartel rap in your words story because that's not the story at all. So you need to listen to a podcast.

surviving El Chapo. I just might after this. So, yeah, and I think understanding even what cooperation is, like, for example, with El Chapo, there's no way the government would have been able to take El Chapo down without cooperation. You know, you might already know, but with complex cases like that, it's not about law enforcement. It's about cooperators because they can't understand or get the insight of really what's

happening by, you know, what they normally do. by wire taps or things like that unless they've got cooperation and insight. But also it's about choices, right? And it's about family and it's about the choices you make. So you think that what the floor is, I'm intrigued, do you think that the Flores twins should have carried on and become Chappo? Is that better than deciding to cooperate? Here's, this is my take.

The entire game is just a byproduct of the misery that is, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, consumes poor countries and parts of poor countries like the north of England or Detroit, Michigan, or Sinaloa, Mexico. It's just, it's a byproduct of the need to survive and drug users. There's something, there's something about modern society that makes people want to alter their state of mind. It's, it's all not very good. It is what it is. And the game is bad. But do I, do I celebrate people that made a choice and made hundreds of millions of dollars and then they decided, you know what, I want out? Like, is that something that should be lauded? You know what I mean? Is that something? And, you know, I see that 50 cent produced this, this, you know, for Lionsgate

sound. Well, I produced it with 50. Right, right, right. But I'm saying like 50. It's just, it's so funny. like 50 was a big time drug dealer in his day. Like he would, he would abhor celebration of cooperating. It's not celebration, it's telling a story. That's storytelling. Like, I just made a show called Scamando, which went viral worldwide. It was number one in like six countries.

And it was about a woman who fake cancer. I'm not celebrating her. I'm telling her story and actually gave a lot of justice to a lot of people who've been betrayed by people like her. So storytelling isn't about lauding. or anything. As a storyteller, which is what I do, like my job and as a journalist is to give you,

it's fascinating. You can decide as a viewer, as a listener, what you think. But my job, if I do it your way around, that is judgment. That is not telling a story. So what surviving Al Chapo is, is, you know, the Flores twins spoke for the very first time.

I spent a lot of time with the family to get to know them and then I told their story like it's not for me to decide what their story is that's their story but then to go underneath the nuance of that story why did they make those decisions you know because to your point you're going on about $100 million

that they were making so they were only in their 20s right they were really young and I think it's important to me and I'm intrigued because I thought you would think it's important to understand why people get into these situations. Yeah, it is.

I'm just trying to maintain my street crowd on YouTube. I just want to press a step. I'm just like, challenge you every second in that. So, you know, that, so just to finish my point is like,

to me, that's important, right? Otherwise, you're just like, I could come in and judge you and I don't judge you. Yeah. Because,

you know, because of your past, right? So to me, I mean, this is, this is something I question at the end of the series. It's like, can you ever have redemption?

Can you ever change? Can you ever, I mean, can the florist twins live a normal life and the florist family? Well, I mean, I don't want to spoil it, but their wives, I mean, one wife's going to prison as we're recording, the other wives going to prison in two months time. Okay, this is, this is wild. So you're like, hang on a second, you're passing that trauma to the kids, like they try to change their life. And then, so for me telling the story of why they cooperated, because, you know, 100 million, those hundred millions, they could have, they were like literally, they could have just become Chapo, right? So they were winning. They weren't, they weren't arrested and then decided to

cooperate. Right. Which is even worse. I think what they did is even more, if I'm looking at it from a street view, from a, from a criminal view, I'm like, they, they did something even more. So it's better to just carry on being a criminal then. Is that what, is that more street credit? When you, when you get arrested. So is that a, is that a, is that a good life? I think when you're a high level criminal and you get arrested and you're looking at life in prison, that's when you're, you really, I can understand a person. Exactly. Who could at least look at the considerations, right?

Which is the norm, right? Of course, and it's human nature. And I understand that. But no, no, no, look, I. But my point is that they were at the top, right? Right. They were winning in every respect. There was no suspicion about them from the cartel.

And there was no, I mean, there were fugitives. But the police weren't after them. The feds went after them. They were after Chapo, right? Right. You guys, I got dates. I am coming on the road to see you and your mother. November 1st, I'm going to be in Bridgeport, Connecticut.

November 2nd, I'm going to be in New Brunswick, New Jersey. November 5th, I'm in New York City for the New York Comedy Festival with Ian Bick. We're doing a live episode of The Connect and a stand-up show at the New York Comedy Club. On November 15th, I'm in Dallas, Texas. November 16th, Austin at the Vulcan Gas Company. Do not miss that one. December 14th, I'm in San Diego and then rounded out the year. December 21st, I'm at Zanee's Comedy Club in Chicago.

I got a lot of Chicago fans. You must come out to that one. It's going to be great. I love meeting you guys on the road. I'm so thrilled that you come out and see my comedy. Go to Johnny Mitchell. Dot biz to get your tickets. Let's get back into the episode and I will see you out there, America.

Okay, okay, can I actually, so let's get into some facts now. Let's talk about like the timeline. And I'll just speed this up because I want to get to them in Mexico when they were fugitives. Okay. So who are the Flores twins? It's Peter. Yeah. And Jay.

Peter and Jay. They grew up in Chicago, but their fathers. And little village. Little village. We've had people guests on the show who grew up with them and remember them. That's interesting. Drug dealers from a young age, seven years old. They saw their father.

Yeah. Sorry, go on. Dishing out, kilos of cocaine. Well, they were used and groomed by their father. So like that's another important point. So to me, as a storyteller, I'm like, well, no, they weren't drug dealers at seven. They were seven. You don't get a freaking choice as a seven-year-old.

Come on. Like, you're a child. And that's important to remember when you brought up in that situation in that life where your father comes out of prison. So the father was in prison, right? And the father comes out of prison when they're seven years old. You know, their older brother is associated with the Latin King. in Chicago.

And the father grooms them. They don't know what they're doing and uses the twins as, you know, seven-year-old innocent kids to basically move drugs across the border. And so he's got, you know, two kids in the back.

Oh, yeah, look, my two kids. You know, so, and uses them to be able to get drugs across the border. Was he just trafficking in marijuana back then? Yeah. The father? Yeah.

Okay. And were they, Was he part of a cartel, the father, or was he just one of these guys, a trafficker for one of the families? Yeah. Yeah, he was a drug trafficker. Got you. But a big drug trafficker. Right, right.

He goes to prison when they're very young, right? Well, when their mother was pregnant with them, he goes to prison. Right. So for the first seven years of their life, he wasn't even there. So when they came, he came out of prison, he basically used the twins to continue his drug dealing and drug trafficking. and use them as little kids. And, you know, they were told to count money. You know, they had to wrap marijuana in the gas tanks for him

and drive across the border to and fro. And he did it as like, this is an education lesson, not in drugs, but an education in, like, travel. So, you know, they drive along, like, the freeway and be like, you know, this is this country, this is, I don't know, not this country, but, you know, this city, this is where the gentleman go. This is where the horses are.

This is the cows. This is blah, blah, blah. blah, blah, blah, you know, so it was like an education trip. Oh, interesting. So he was like throwing in like geography. He was almost trying to make it like a normal childhood road trip. This is the America's biggest ball of yarn over here. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then, you know, if they, he sold the drugs, he would then take them for like steak and is a reward. And it would like, look, if you do, if you do these things and you get money, then you can have this reward. It was also teaching them about business and reward, I think.

But, you know, it wasn't like, they were like, dad, were seven years old teachers about drug trafficking. They didn't understand. No seven year old really would understand. And that's just part of their life, right? So to me, they were groomed into that situation. They didn't have much of a choice. No. And who's the older brother?

They have an older brother. Yeah, called Armando. And how did he fit into the picture? So he was part of the Latin Kings, you know, a high up leader. but he didn't want the twins to get into that life. So I'll try and do it quickly because the father got, well, the police were after, the feds were after the father again. When the twins were like 11, 12 years old.

And then he escaped to Mexico as a fugitive and tried to blame it on one of their, not on the twins, but another brother. And there was nobody left to basically blame it on. he ran off to Mexico and took the twins and they were there for about a year and they wanted to be back in Chicago because they weren't very happy. And so the brother, older brother, Armando agreed to look after them in the family home. So they went back and were looked after by Armando. And then Armando got arrested and they were like at this point kind of young teenagers

and they were left with bills like a lot of debt. drug debt or regular regular debt okay regular debt gotcha and so they were left on their own to fend for themselves and they didn't go

you know they started working at McDonald's you know as as you know so many teenagers do right so it wasn't like they kind of went into drug dealing and I say this not to be like not as a kind of bias or to stick up for them purely as fact

so they went and worked you know, like so many teenagers do in McDonald's. And then an associate of Armando, the older brother, approached them and said, you know, will you do this for us? And they had a lot of debt. And so they did that one thing. And then, you know, one thing led to another, right? And what's really interesting about them,

whatever anybody thinks, they're extremely clever. They are so intelligent. I've met so many people in my life. have done so much, so many different walks of life. And, you know, they're probably one of the most group, intelligent people I've ever met. So if they had applied themselves in a different way, or they'd have had a different upbringing,

or I don't know if their father was a lawyer, then they probably would be known in a different way. Their names would be known in a different way because they are that smart. They'd be huge podcasters. Yeah, they'd be huge. They'd be sitting your seat. Absolutely.

And I think the combination of them is really interesting as well because I think that's where their success came from. And that combination of the twin, I think, relationship is really interesting, which made them a huge success. So that's how they ended up in the situation they did. And by the time they were like 17, they'd made a million dollars cash. Memorial Day weekend is almost here. And it's time to kick off summer right. When I'm getting ready for the first big weekend of summer, total wine and more. is my go-to, especially when I'm firing up the grill with family.

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Because we're in like the late 90s or mid to late 90s, right? Where is Armando? Did he get sent to prison? Yeah. Okay. So now they are really on their own. Yeah, they're totally on their own. Wow.

And where was the mother? With the father in Mexico. In Mexico. Did he ever return to the U.S.? No. Is he still a fugitive? No, he's dead. Oh, right.

And this is going to, this comes into it. Do you want me to tell you now? Sure. What happened? Yeah. Well, he was murdered by the cartel because of what the twins did. Wow. But so I should expand on that.

So you asked, did he return to America? So he did return to the US when the twins cooperated. So the twins, you know, they cooperated. They, I'm skipping forward, but we can rewind and then so I can just tell you this here. Yeah, there's a lot to it. So, don't worry about that. So the twins cooperated against El Chapo. And that's why it's called Surviving Al Chapo, the twins who brought down a drug lord.

and so they were they were kind of pulled out of Mexico so the twins are in Mexico which I know we need to talk about and they took they said you know the father,

the brother, the wives they have to get out Mexico now otherwise the cartel are going to slaughter the whole family once they find out right?

So they escaped through the Mexico border to the US and as part of the cooperation the US gave the father and a US visa right? Right.

and made sure that he wouldn't kind of get sent back. And so he lived in the States for a while, but then was struggling by all accounts and really wanted to go back to Mexico, which he felt, even though he lived in Chicago, he felt that was his place. And he was out of the game. They weren't helping him with money.

No. Oh, wow. And the twins are in prison at this point. Right, right. So no. And so the father going, back in a nutshell, he goes back to Mexico. One of Jay's wife, Val, tried to stop him. He went back to Mexico. And then the car, you know, there was a note found and warning the twins to be quiet. And that was the consequence.

So the cartel killed their father as a consequence of what the twins did. And they found out when they were cooperating. And cooperation, which we also need to talk about, isn't, you don't. just sit there and go, hey Johnny. So chapo did this and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. See ya. It's not just, it's not just one meeting. Years and years and years.

They cooperated four years and it was six years before they even knew what their sentence would be. That's how long they cooperated for. And the first eight months, they cooperated and profit every single day while they were in the shoe in solitary. And so during that time, they were told that so it was quite early on that the father would. being killed by the cartel. And there was a note left to warn them. Wow. They, somebody snuck them a note in while they were in the shoe. No, the note was left on his, on, on the father's car that was found in Mexico. So they disappeared his body. Yeah. They never even found him. No. Are they originally from Sinaloa or where is his father from in Mexico?

That's a really good question. No, they're not from Sinaloa. Because I'm, I'm curious. So, so years before, they, they're now in their early 20s. They're kingpins. Yeah. I mean, and young kingpins. And they're now in Mexico, not in Chicago anymore. Right. So they tell us about how they ended up in Mexico.

I think a lot of people don't know about their fugitive days. No. Okay. So go ahead and tell us how that happened. So I think what, just something to point out, because I know it's really important to the twins, is that, you know, they are American. You're right. Because I think some people mistake, they're not, you know, their heritage is Mexican, but they're American. They're born and bred in America. They're U.S. citizens. You know, and they're Chicago people.

Right. What do you call Chicago people? Chicagoans. Yeah. And I think that's really important because they often say, you know, look, when we're Americans, this was done in the U.S. because I think there's, you can blame, there's a tendency to blame Mexicans or blame, you know, people that aren't from America, right? And so I think that's really important to get across. I know it's important to them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think if you're born like that, Mexican,

if you're from parents from Mexico, again, ignorant Americans, I thought you were Australian. We call people, even Mexican Americans born here, identify themselves. They're like, I'm Mexican. So you say I'm Mexican, but what you're really saying is I'm Mexican

born in the U.S., like how somebody whose first generation will say, I'm Italian, but your grandparents are really, American. Yeah. So, but they were perfectly set up to be kingpins because they've got direct connections to the old country. So, but yeah. And they also don't forget, had that little education from their father who introduced them to yeah, Mexican life in Mexico. Do you think if they had been from Mexico, they would have cooperated? Because if you're from Mexico, you, you're,

well, I don't think they'd have got to where they were. Right, because they wouldn't have had the distribution connections in the U.S. Yeah, so who they were was they were the key to distribution for Chapo, basically. So they were America's biggest drug traffickers at the time. Because they were the ones that got the cocaine into America. So I don't think they would have got to where they were. You know, this is just my opinion. I don't know.

Why were they so good at distribution? Is it because they had the best product at the lowest price? And that allowed them to go to all the other wholesale. distributors and be like, hey, you're not going to find a better deal. Was that how they were able to make so many connections? Or is it because they were just such good business people? I think they were such good business people. Honestly, like I go back to what I was saying, they're extremely clever, intelligent people. Where was there cocaine coming from when they were in their late teens, early 20s before they went on the run, when they were still in Chicago?

Who were they, what organization were they working for? Or with, I'll say. Well, it did all go back to, you know, the cartels in, you know. But which one? The Sinolawa. Okay. Okay. But obviously they didn't know at the time that it wasn't like they had direct connections to Chapo at the time.

Right, right. But it still came from the same, you know. Region, but there was a bunch of there was the Beltron Lavia's. There was obviously. They were all together at the time. Oh, it was one federation in the 90s. Interesting. So, but they...

So it was before the federation split. So who were they getting? getting it from though. So who was actually... I don't know their exact suppliers. That's what you're asking me. Yeah, yeah, but I... I want me to know, isn't it, don't me to find out his name.

But if they're, but if they're getting... I don't know his name. But if they're getting huge, if they're getting it directly from the cartel, then... Through people. Right, okay, so, but they gotcha, but they don't act, yeah, they're not on the lines with the kingpins yet. No, no, no, no, that relationship hasn't started. And please ask me about that because how that relationship with Chapo started is so

fascinating. Yeah. Totally wild. Yeah, okay. So no, at the time, they didn't have that relationship. But I think a few things, and I'd be interested to see what you think, is why they were so good at it. I think, one, they're extremely smart.

They learn supply and demand in McDonald's. So going back to McDonald's, this is an amazing story. This is in season one at the very beginning. And I love this story because one of the workers, you know, by the way, like 15 years old. And I think a lot of kids, I mean, I look at myself. I mean, I was quite entrepreneurial. And I think it's also to do with the fact that, you know, my mom had me as a teenager. I'm from a really poor family.

We didn't have any money. So I was always like, you know, like I was stacking shelves. And then I was trying to like stack the wine at like 14, 15 years old and learn about the wines to pretend I knew what was talking about and all that stuff to, you know, try and elevate myself, you know, and more money. So I think you get that entrepreneurial spirit when you come from nothing, right? Absolutely. And you have sometimes, well, the majority time is about survival, not about material or pleasure. It's just about being able to survive.

So there's a great story when they're working in McDonald's and, you know, one of the workers drops the cheese and they pick the cheese back up again to use. And Pete's like, the fact you're doing, like, don't use it again. Just use the other cheese in the fridge. Throw that one away. It's not your money. And I thought that was really interesting because then they started to learn. and things like that, where it's like, it's not your money.

Don't, don't, you know, use old Chee-Gs that you've just dropped on the floor. And they started to use these things in how, in distribution, right? So they understood supply and demand through working at McDonald's. And I think they're very charming, which I think makes a difference. So I think they're very likable. They're also Mexican and dealing, dealing with trustworthy. But I think how they got into the, so I know we're skimming forward, they also got so infiltrated in the cartel is because they were, they were seen as really trustworthy. Right, right.

And they were seen as like, you know, they could speak English and Spanish. They could go between both cultures, American and Mexican. But, you know, they're really smart people. Not everybody's smart. Not everybody's naturally smart. Were they trafficking it themselves across the border when they were. you know, late teens, early 20s? Or did they have, did the cartels

take care of that for them and then just say, hey, they weren't traffic. No, they weren't doing that at that age. They were like, they were just going to be a load. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's going to be a load here. And then they started to set up, you know, stash houses and instead in Chicago.

Yeah. And they, you know, only put stash houses in posh, fancy, rich places, right? So you think of like, to me, they have so much foresight. But again, what I've found, really interesting when I got to know them is that relationship between them is fascinating because I'm not sure one person could have done it.

So the fact that you've got you've got twins and so they are chalk and cheese. So I think that really helps because they can one of them's super, I mean they're both charming and they're both, they're both, they're both very plight, whatever you think, this is fact, they're very plight, very, you know, they'll ask you about. you, they're very friendly, lovely people. They are genuinely lovely people. And I think that goes a long way, right? You don't get far in business by needing an absolute.

Totally. You don't, because you end up getting found out and people don't want to work with you, whether you're dealing drugs or, I don't know, working in finance. That's right. You know, it's still about relationships and network. But I think it's the fact that they also had this like incredible loyalty because they're twins

they're twins and they're identical twins that I don't know whether people have. So there was that trust between them and they never made a decision without each of them and they still like that to this day, which I think is really, really unique. Totally. Totally. So to me,

it's not like you're like, it's not just about, you know, did they just figure out distribution to me? It's a lot about like, but this is how I look at things as well. It, it,

it's about who they are as people and the way they did, they did business and people liked doing business with them. And they were trustworthy and respectful young men, right? And they weren't, you know, they were businessmen. That's how they saw themselves rather than violent, chaotic people where they were volatile, right? The twins weren't. And I think then, you know, it's like in any walk of life, you start to trust those people. And then they deliver.

Then you rely on them. Then it builds out and builds out and builds out. For sure. They still have the best price, though. Because that just goes without. saying because they're plugged in. So now tell us about how they ended up on the run, how they ended up in Mexico. So, you know, they did, they were very successful in Chicago from a very, very young age. And then, did they give you an idea of the volume they were moving

in those days? Oh, God. Um, like, are we talking 100 kilos a week? Are we talking a thousand a month? I do know and I can't think. They were millionaires though. Yeah. Oh yeah. Gotcha. Like 17. Yeah.

Crazy. So what would that amount to? I mean, well, it just depends on how much you're moving. It depends on how much they were getting a kilo for and how much they were selling it for. That's all. So by the time they're in their early 20s, there's a Fed case that comes down on them, right? Yeah. And they've wanted.

So, but then at the same time, one of the brothers, Pete, gets kidnapped. And this is his first kidnap. There's a few kidnaps coming. Are they, oh, this is his first kidnap. He gets kidnapped in Chicago. Yeah. Dude, this guy on a bodyguards? How does he keep getting kidnapped?

I know, and that's actually a bit of the beef between the two of them, because it's the same one that gets kidnapped every time. It's like, I couldn't Jay get kidnapped once. Yeah, it's like, and, I mean, you know, it's really interesting sometimes listen to them argue, because when I first got to know them, A lot of the stuff had never been discussed before between them. So it was fascinating to capture. Yeah.

For the first time about it. Yeah. And it was really important to me that going back to the beginning of our conversation that I would never have got this story or this insight and been able to bring this story to life if I'd have sat there and judged them. And that's not why I'm here to do. And I, you know, I've spent a lot of time with them. I've spent the last couple of years with them.

Yeah. And you really get close and you get to know somebody. And that's the only way that I could have brought the reality of this story. So I was part of a lot of arguments as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was interesting to listen. And one of them was, you know, but you don't understand. I, you know, I was kidnapped.

But Jay's like, yeah, but I was the one that had to get out of these situations. So that's also a pressure. And that also has a, you know, an impact on you. Of course. But, yeah, it was always Pete. Who kidnapped? Who kidnapped him? the first time.

Well, the first time, it was a guy who then, who became known as basically somebody who's called Saul who kept kidnapping people for money. And that's what he became known for. So he kidnapped Pete. And, but Jay found out who kidnapped him and then managed to get him. But he disguised himself as police. Oh, right. But Pete was like, I know you're not pleased.

Oh, so did he pull him over or something? Or he knocked on his door? No, he was on a motor. bike basically and then grabbed him as pretending they were feds and then it wasn't. But it's really interesting because they don't get their revenge on him straight away, but they do get revenge on him years later when they end up cooperating. Right. Oh, wow.

My drift. Yes. And I found that interesting as well because, you know, going back to why they were so successful, I'm not sure I would have been able to emotionally control myself like that if somebody did have done that to me. but they did emotionally control themselves and it was all about strategy. That's right.

Patience. Patience. Strategy. The long game rather than, right, we're going to go and get him for kidnapping. How much did you have to get paid out? Oh God, I had no idea. Okay.

A lot of money. Right. And negotiating and a group of people to help negotiate. And so then after that, they fled to Mexico. Oh, so they didn't go on the run because there was a DEA warrant out for them. Oh, no, they did, yeah.

Okay, so there was... It just happened at the same time. Wow. Okay, damn. So the heat's coming out. The heat's coming down. Yeah, so Jay left, you know, and that's at the same time,

he met, you know, he married Val. Right. Who's his wife. And they all went on the run together. All the whole, they brought the kids. In the end, yeah. And so like Val and Jay went over and then Pete, they went over first,

and then Pete, you know, met them, across the border and then they fled to Mexico as fugitives when they were like, you know, 20, 21 years old. Where were they hiding out? Were they in Senaiola? Lots of places. Oh, so they were moving around. Yeah, not Sinola.

Okay. They didn't go to Sinolaola. Okay. Until they met Chapo. Gotcha. And tell us how they met. So, Pete got kidnapped again. Jesus Christ, this fucking guy.

I know. I mean, you know, in all seriousness, it really changed him. And I'm, when, you know, when. he walked me through what happened, you could see, again, whatever you think, people are human and have emotions and aren't robots. And so it did have a severe impact on him mentally. And I mean, you know, PTSD from that must be horrific. Why did they kidnap him, though? Okay, you're ready for this? Yeah. So this is how they match Chapo. So I'm going to rewind. I've just kind of done the spoiler first.

So Pete got kidnapped. He went to see a guy called Lupe, he was like his uncle, Theo, but not blood-related. And they'd done loads of business together. And all of a sudden Pete wasn't there. So Pete went on his own and they're like, where's Pete?

So they're all kind of phoning around going, where's Pete gone? And then it turns out, they find out that Pete's, got kidnapped again. In a short space of time after the last one as well. God damn. And then Jay finds out, like, who's got him, who's got him, who's got him, right?

And they're like, Chapo's got him. And did they know who Chopo was? Was Chapo famous? I mean, do you know who Chapo was? But in 2000 or 98, whenever this was, I don't know that the world really knew. He wasn't, he didn't have the worldwide infamy yet. They knew who Chapo was. Okay, gotcha.

Yeah. Gotcha. So why did they target them? But this was like, yeah, I suppose it was late 90s, early 2000s. So no, they did know Chapo. So it was like Chapo has got him. Right. So then Jay had to try and figure out a way through lots of different people and the lieutenants to be able to go and meet Chapo. He's like, I want to go meet Chapo. So he flies to Sinolaoa the first time he's gone to Sinolao going back to a question. They weren't based in Sinolawa. Right. And he meets Chapo for the first time. And it's just,

the description is amazing. You have to listen to it. Because this is in the first season of surviving on Chapo. Because he's like, he's kind of just like, oh man. He's just like, he's just like, you know, that's what day is like he's just like, you know, and there was this whole, obviously, perception about him. Mystique. Yeah, about him.

And he's like, he's just coming with a trucker's cap on. And he's like, you know, how can I help you? Yeah. You know, it's brilliant because I end one of the episodes there. And so it turns out Chapo's got him and Chapo's like, you owe me money. And Jay's like, I don't owe you money. He's like, yeah, you owe me 10 million. And he's like, no, I don't owe you.

And he goes, Lupe says you owe me 10 million. Wow. So. So Lupe owed him 10 million. Yeah, and blamed it on it. In a nutshell. It's a bit more complicated than that, but yes. Wow.

And Jay's like, okay, and this is so fascinating because this then links to how they ended up getting Chapo years later when they cooperated. Because they didn't cooperate with the Fed's approval in a way because the feds were like, well, we don't deal with fugitives. So they had to get Chapo on tape to be able to cooperate. So then I'm going to rewind you back to this moment where Jay is with Chapo. and Chapa goes, prove it to me then. Here's a go and get a recorder and record Lupa. Right? So that gave them the idea years later.

Wow. Of course, to record Chapo with exactly the same type of equipment. Right. And we turned it back on him. Again, they're very clever. Do you think they held that against Chappo even after, you know, Pete was freed? They'd never held the kidnapping against him. No.

Okay, got you. No, because it was Lupe. Right. I think Jay said he was really disappointed because he was like, well, let me tell you what happened. So they went to speak to Lupe and this kind of like ruckus, you know, you know, kind of built, came out. And Jay's got the recording and he's like, oh my God, like, because they patted him down. He's like, oh, my God, if they find the recording, but they didn't find the recording. Because they would have probably, I don't know what they'd have done.

But I'd presume it would have been trouble. They're not the same situation because they were leaving Pete to die, basically. at this point to Pete's in a really bad state. So Pete's not just there going, oh yeah, come on, rescue me. Pete's like not eating, you know, he's really in a bad way

and his kidneys were starting to fail. So, yeah. And so they managed to get, Jay manages to get Lupe on tape. Goes back to Cinelloa. And there's a really funny little story where the pilot, who's the best pilot of Cinelloa

is this young lad, young boy with flip-flops driving the plane and he's like, no, that. And Jay's like, oh my God. And then like another thing happens while they're in the air and et cetera, et cetera. And then they go back to Jay, goes back to Chapo and he's like with his best mate. And he's like, here's the recording, listens to recording. And Chapo's like, oh, Lupe.

What have you done, Lupe? But anyway, I still need $10 million. So Jay is like, what the fuck? And he's so disappointed because he's proved that it's not, because they probably themselves on never owe in, you know, they pride themselves again on this trust and not being pay and the connect. Scumbags, basically. And yeah, it's like all about loyalty in a kind of unloyal, disloyal world, which again,

I find really interesting because to me there was more loyalty than sometimes I see in my own life by people, which again, there's a judgment that it isn't. But actually, if we look at, we're so quick to judge on the other side. They really broke that loyalty though, unfortunately. So yeah, but that was, but that was out of their own choice to save themselves. But hang on. But how did that resolve itself? Because I heard that.

Well, then he had to go and collect. He had to go and get $10 million. So he just had to basically go. So Jay had to go. Yeah. And hustle. Yeah. And collect.

And then they actually laid all their jewelry out and got an appraiser to come and let, you know, so they, they, you know, they sold all their jewelry, including the wedding rings. Whoa. both the wives, both, you know, P and Jay. Yeah. And to get the money. Right. Because of Lupe.

Right. But Chapo did go and get Lupe. So you went and killed Lupe. And yeah. And then, so anyway, Jay goes and gives them money. And then, like, Chapo's like, okay, release Pete because he's literally about to die. Yeah. He was that bad.

He got, you know, including failure, like I said. And then they just let Pete out in the middle of nowhere. And Jay is trying to find him. And he's like, okay. I've got a rough idea and Pete's like, you know, all over the place. I don't know where I am. And like in the middle of nowhere. And it's a really powerful story because I play the whole thing out of Jay trying to find Pete.

And Jay's like trying to flash his headlights and he's like, because they left him with a phone. Can you see the headlights? And eventually he manages to find him. And Pete's like can hardly stand up. I don't get how these people, I don't get the mindset. It's like, why can't Chapo just arrange a ride for? him. You know what I'm saying? Because now they, and then they kill Lupe and then Choppel's like, well, hey, I need a guy to distribute for me. Would you like to do it? And that's what happens.

It's so. So in the end, but even when, um, even, yeah, even before they've got Pete, Chappo's like, okay, well, I want you to come away with me. And Jay's like, you know, with all due respect, sir, that's fine, but I want to get my brother back, you know, and then Chappo does say, you know, my brother got killed. Right. And he says no, no amount of money is worth losing your brother. Yeah, no amount of money is worth using your brother.

That's what Chappo says. To J. Yeah. Even though Chapo knows that it's not Jay, that owes the money. Yeah. But, you know, Chapo doesn't care, I suppose,

because he wants his $10 million. Yeah. So anyway, and then he managed to get Pete. And then Pete, I asked Pete after that. I said, because in my head, I'm like, well, wouldn't that change you, right? Maybe that would change your decisions, maybe.

and I said to Pete you know after that did it change you and you know I spoke to his wife and his wife said that for a long time for a while Pete was you know locked in a room because he couldn't face

the light and he really struggled PTSD but also really bad physical health issues yeah and you know he was locked up for a long time in horrific torture conditions and Pete said yeah it did and I said well did it stop you

And he said, no, actually I went in higher and further. And I said, why? And I thought it was really interesting because he felt that's the only way he could prevent that from happening again. Is to get richer. To get more. Well, I wouldn't say richer. I'd say more power. Yeah.

Well, that's all based off money. I would. I would. It costs a lot of money to keep those operations moving. So power. Because of power. Because he saw safety in power. Yeah.

Yes, you need money for that. but I mean like, which I, you know, because you think, well, you know, they can't just get out anyway. They can't just exit. So it's not as simple as like, oh, well, you were kidnapped you in his really bad state, like exit the situation. They're not going to let them exit. But, you know, would they try and like low? But no, he said they upped the ante because it made him feel like that's the only way he could protect himself is by having more power. So now they're, you know, I understand that psychology in a way.

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I use it for my injury. I use it to help me sleep. They're just the best. Go to their website right now, you guys, and use those promo codes. If you're a fan of the show, you know, connect 20 to get 20% off anything on their website. Okay. And then, of course, if you want a free five-count pack of gummies, use promo code, connect free. And they'll just send you a free pack of gummies. All you do is pay for shipping. Go over to hellomood.co right now and get you some. You know, what was interesting is you said they actually, yeah, they got bigger. So now they're in Mexico and Chapo is their connect. He's their supplier.

They were then exporting. These guys are Mexican Americans, but they're on the Mexican side. And they're now moving, they're now smuggling drugs across the border. They're on the supply end. Yeah. And they still got their same people in Chicago. Right. So they've got that.

So that's how, you know, going back to your question, I don't think they would have been able to do that if they were Mexican. Right. Because they'd already set up a community. Community, yeah. A network in America. So they've got their buyers in America, but they have the best price. They are the source. And so now it's like, did they give you an idea of the kind of money they were making?

And what were they moving? Well, when I asked that, they said that they just didn't even know. It was that much. It was that much. It was that much that they even lost count of how much money they were with. Was it- They were making, sorry. Was it Coke? It went from weed to coke, but then it was heroin because they got chop-o on the wire

talking about, I want 40 kilos of heroin. Yes. Yes, but it was not, they weren't doing heroin until the very, very end and they didn't want to do it. So it was mainly all cocaine and it was only at the very end that, that that kind of came into conversation or into the situation and they didn't agree with- with that. And again, I'm just telling you what they said. A lot of, a lot of, a lot of people don't want to dabble in heroin.

They look at it as different than code. Yes. Yeah. Which I understand. Yeah. Um, so, but they did, they did that because they were, they spent eight months trying to set, trying to get that phone call. Yeah. Right. Trying to get that. So again, it wasn't like, you know, they spent eight months in that situation where every day they were like, is somebody going to find out what we're doing? Okay. So, So there, where were they, how long were they working directly with Chapo before they decided to turn? Not very long. A couple of years.

A couple of years. Yeah. Yeah. Were they, did they set up shop in Kulia Khan or were they somewhere else in Mexico? All over. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were in Goulcan, but they were like all over.

And what they used to do is like they'd buy a house, but they wouldn't put their name on it. So they'd buy a house out right. Never put their name on it. And then when they felt there was some kind of risk or suspicion, they'd move and they'd just leave everything behind. Just abandon the house with all their belongings in it. And then moved to the next house and the next house. And they just went to loads of different places across Mexico. Right.

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it's also crazy because I'm like is there loads of houses I mean it's been a while now right but I'm like is there loads of houses just left with people's belongings in because that's what they told me but I mean I don't know is that what you is that what people do that's a yeah you know because they told me that they'd had they just bought these houses no names probably already furnished on them yeah already furnished all that yeah and they got yeah

somebody to and they did that in chicc you know in chicago with the stash houses actually they got um one of their connects who used to set up um this woman who used to set up the stash houses and make it look like a house with furnishings and set it up like a lovely yeah You know, rich person's house, and that's where they'd stash their drugs. And so it's the same concept in a way that they did in Mexico. And then nobody would be suspicious. People think stash house is like some dodgy warehouse, right? With a load of drugs in it.

Not some posh, fancy, rich, big mansion with loads of like pots and pans and nice furniture in it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a real estate move is buying like here in America, somebody gets raided in a big old house. They go to prison. you know, a real estate speculator will pick that up because then the government will just sell it at

auction. So yes, in Mexico, there's many of those. So they're, they've made a lot of money by this point. Why do they feel like they couldn't get out? Couldn't you feel like you could go on the run? Like here's my other thing. You've got tens of millions of dollars. Yes, you got it. Hundreds of millions. Yeah, it's far more than tens of millions. That would be doing them in just days. Right. Well, I'm just saying, because the money goes so fast. It's like you got to pawn your jewelry. Like save some money, guys. So they felt like...

But that was in the very beginning. That's before they started working with Chapo. Right, right. That was like, you know, that was how they started to work. And it costs a lot of money to go on the run too. Yeah. So obviously they can't go back to the states. They've got a warrant out.

Yeah. You can't stay in Mexico if you want to get out of the game. Or could you? They said no. They said they couldn't have. They couldn't have. couldn't have gone to, maybe this is an ignorant question, they couldn't have gone to the bosses and be like, I want to get out, but here's somebody else. They'd have killed them. Right, because

they know, is it, they know too much. Yeah, and also, they're not going to go, oh, you know what, why didn't you take a, why do you take a vacation and chill out a little bit? Like, it's always on. I mean, yeah, that's the other thing that they explained to me. They had like 50 phones each. They had over 100 phones between them. And I'm just thinking a lot about your questions over this conversation, because it is interesting, like, why they were so successful. Again, this is, I think, another thing is they were always hands-on. So they had a phone for each person.

So that's why they had 50 phones to cover their back. So they never used one phone. So it's one phone call one person. And they were always really hands-on. And that's what Chappo liked about them because Chappo said, you know, hang on what? And they were like, no, we always, it's always. our own stuff so they were on 24-7. But from what they told me, again, I'm not, I can't say, no, they wouldn't have been

able to get out because I'm not, I'm an expert by proxy. I'm not being in that situation, so I don't know. But from what they were explaining to me, you can't get out of that situation. Like, they were so high up that they were so connected in that situation that it would been impossible for them to get out. And they did think about, well, could we go to like Spain or something? Yeah. But they felt like they had no option. And that's what they told me. And, you know, because I did question that. I said, you know, well, could you have tried to escape? Could you have gone on the run? And, but also they were like that, they didn't want that life

anymore. They wanted out of the life. And that's my problem. That's my problem. Well, they want out of the life. Right. But what's the problem with that? But you, but you, but you, chose the life. It's, it's, they didn't choose the life. So you're telling me a seven year old chooses the life. They could have, they could have taken their time. No, of course not. But when they were in their 20s, I mean, look, they, they were smart enough to make a choice to go get a job at McDonald's. So by the time they're in their 20s and they've got, let's say, I don't know, $10 million profit that they've made just from their, maybe even more. Yeah, they could have got out. They could have, they could have just taken the time. They could have, they could have chosen, they could have said, hey, I'm going to take a

plea deal. They'd never been in trouble before. What would they have gotten? Maybe 10 years, 15 years. They could have taken that, stashed their money, and then got out and either quit. They could have made a choice. They could have made a choice then,

but I suppose, like, to bring the, to be the devil's advocate, that's a problem I have with cooperating, is that you you reaped all the benefits from it, but now you said, ah, I'm going to tap out. I don't think they tapped out and for ease. me. Right, right. Like, I've listened to the stories and what they've been through. And ease is

definitely not a word I would ever associate for their life or what they go through or what they're even going through in the slightest. Right. And you can't tell me that it's being easy on your life and it was easy to change your life and be where you are now. And because if you do, then I think you're absolutely lying to me. Well, no, that's a good question though. May I talk about myself for a second? Yeah, I was trafficking marijuana and one of my sources back then was cartel members directly connected to Sinaloa and Kulia Khan. I was buying in bulk from farmers that looked like Chapo. They were all five foot two and they wore little trucker hats and they had really like high voices and they were just cute. You know what I mean? And they were, but they were the

cartel, right? When they operated in America. When I got locked up, they had no idea about these guys, but they caught me with so much money. They were like, oh, clearly this guy is a link in a cartel chain because they found like, at the end of the day, like almost over a million dollars. My lawyer was like, if you, we can cooperate, but if you do it, I just want you to know it's not going to be one podcast. It's not going to be one sit down with them and then they let you out. you're going to have to do a lot of talking and a lot of walking. So I looked at that. The government said, I spoke to the government and they said it's all or nothing when you cooperate.

You either cooperate or you don't. And we tell you when you're done. Yeah. What you're going to give and when you're done. And I heard that and I was like, I'd rather do, you know, give me five years. Yeah, but you were looking at big time, right? You're not looking at life. That's the difference.

If you were looking at 70 years, would you have. And that's what they were threatening them with. They would have got life. They would have died in prison. No, no, no, no. But from their original case from Chicago? No, because they didn't go to the police then. Right, right.

But did they, was there? My question, okay, this is actually important. So I'm questioning you is would you have, so you didn't cooperate, right? I did not. But because I looked at. So if they'd have said to you, you know, you're going to face life. You're going to die in prison or you cooperate and get 10 years. What would you have done?

That's totally different. No, it's not. That is very different. No, it's not. What is what, but you're telling me you wouldn't have, so I would have, I would have thought about it. Exactly. And I suppose you're saying it's different because that wasn't your situation, fair enough, right? But I suppose what I find interesting is like, I don't think for a second, and again, I've never been in a situation.

So I'm not, I'm just playing devil's advocate and from the information I know and the time I've spent with the Flores family and got to know, um, what it was like for them. and just I don't think for a second any it goes back to what I said where you tell it people are either in prison who cooperated or wish they cooperate everybody cooperates in prison and I think that's what people don't understand from the outside world it's like you know I've seen some of the comments on surviving Al Chapin it's like you know rats and it's like well you're telling me if if you're in prison and I know they weren't in prison I know they volunteered which we can talk about they've, and it's, you know, completely unheard of what they did. But I don't think for a second anybody's going to sit there and serve there and die in prison

when they could get out by cooperating. And that's how the prison system works. And I think it is important that you, you know, as somebody that knows that, you educate people in that because, you know, I've spoke to the US government. I've spoke to the Flores family. I spoke to lots of different sources that I can't name. Yeah. And I think it's so fascinating.

I'd love to do another thing on cooperation because it's fascinating, but that is how law enforcement works. Oh, yeah. And I think... They set that up originally to take down the mafia. They were like, we're going to give these motherfuckers so much time that it will force people to cooperate. Yeah, and that's how the prison system,

law enforcement and these cases work. So I think it's really important to emphasize that where it's not like there's one person in the whole... rats like they're all cooperating all of them for different things to get time off their sentence I would argue that in I just would have done it differently if I were them in Mexico but but what I think is important you weren't in that situation were you and I was like no of course it's 20-20 but these guys had time it's not like they were you know got raided and they're in the cuffs and they're under the gun. But I think the question, if we're actually, because we're kind of arguing about like

a moral ethical dilemma here. I think it's because you'll call me Australian. I'm just going to argue with you this whole thing. Whatever you say, I'm just going to go against you, even if I don't believe it. In British, right? United Spirit of debate, right? So, so when they were operating, they're on the run from a case in the United States, the whole time that they're operating as kingpins in Mexico. Yeah. But was the U.S. government, the DEA, aware of them? So they weren't aware of them operating? Well, they were aware of them because they were fugitives, right? But were they aware of the scale that they were moving dope when they were in Mexico? No. Boom. Okay. So were you tell, so if, if that's the case, that's how they managed to do it. But I don't think they were facing life then

from their case when they were in the early 20s. Oh no, they were. They were. They were. I spoke to the U.S. government. They said if they'd have been arrested at that stage in Mexico, they would have faced life and died in prison. Before Mexico, I'm talking about when they were still in Chicago on the run. No, they weren't in Chicago on the run. They were, their feds were after them and they went to Mexico straight away. They weren't in Chicago on the run. Right. That's what I mean, though. That's what I mean. The case that they were, they were running from. So you're saying they could have handed themselves in and turned themselves in Chicago. First time offenders, yes, they got caught. Yes, I'm sure they had a RICO case for a lot of weight.

And if you look at the federal sentencing scales, yes, they can give you, dude, it's insane. For like 10 hits of acid, they could give you up to life. It's crazy. But probably if these are first-time offenders that had over five kilos, the minimum is five years to life. More than likely, they would not have gotten a life sentence if they had pleaded out. They would have said, yes, guilty. They would have gotten up to 15. I understand what you're saying.

But from their point of view, that wasn't in their heads right then. So yes, they could have made a choice at that time to get out of the life, but that wasn't the situation at that time. No, I get that. So, like, they weren't like. But I'm saying they had a choice. Consider, maybe they, yes, but they didn't feel like they did. Right. Because I think that's the difference.

Like, I'm not, again, look, I'm, I want to be careful here because I'm not, I'm not. You're the journalist. I'm not, yeah, I'm not, I'm not the Flores team and you're not the US government or the opposition or criminals that don't agree with rats, right? That's not who you are. But I'm just saying for argument's sake, well, I'm not pro. And I'm here as a journalist telling you a story that I've made. So I want to make that clear. Do you think, now do you think they think after all that they've been through, because they were put through hell when they, after they decided to cooperate?

Do you think they would have taken, if their charge was 15 or 20 years from the original indictment in America, do you think they would have rather done that than go through what they had to go through to cooperate? Like, do you think the prison, the prison that you have to go through to cooperate is, is worse than the physical prison? Well, I think, well, they were in physical prison as well. So I think just from what they, from what they, from what they, set, yeah, they did do time. Yeah. And, you know, they didn't get it easy with their time.

So no, no, no, let me answer your question. Sure, sure, sure. Let me answer your question because I think it's really important. So from when I spoke, I spoke to Pete about this. And Pete said to me at that time, which your question about, he would never, it would rather have died than go to prison. Right. So that was there. He'd also been in captive twice. Yeah, exactly. So I understand. So. So, Yeah. So that was his mentality. And actually he said that only a year before they cooperated. So his mentality was absolutely not. And by the way, it was Jay's idea in the first place and he had to persuade Pete. Right. So again, they've got different personalities. But, you know, they do things together as a one, which that identical twin relationship is really important in this story. I think it would have been very different if they weren't. So. I think it's really hard. I mean, I can't answer that question because I'm not Pete and I'm not Jay. So,

but I know from from spending time with them and telling their story that that wasn't in their heads at the time. So they didn't, it wasn't like they knew the foresight that they'd going to cooperate that, that they were going to be with Chapo and end up in that situation. There wasn't that foresight to make that decision. How old were they at the time? When they made the decision. like 23, 24 years old.

So they were super young. I mean, they got out of prison when they were like, just turned 40. Okay, so let's, yeah, let's move through that. So just to your point, it's like, it's really very well going, you know, do you think that, you know, I don't know, but I do know their mentality at the time was

they'd rather die than go to prison. That's when, that's why they escaped to Mexico. Right. I don't think they knew they were going to end up, Doing time when they cooperated? No, no, they did think they were going to do time. They knew they were going to do time. Yeah, yeah.

And that's they, right, when they turn themselves in. Yeah, of course. They, right. They turned themselves in knowing that they were like how, Jay was like, has, I mean, do we want to talk about this now? Jay hadn't,

Jay wanted out of the life. And he wanted a better life for his children. And I think they felt like they never get, they never, well, I don't think, I know that they felt like they never, like they never got a choice in their life. And I understand what you're saying. And yes, there is always things where you're like, well, you had a choice. I mean, I look at some things in my own life and it's like you feel like you don't have a choice,

but you always have a choice. And whether you think, whether it's a bad choice or another bad choice, you still always have a choice, right? But sometimes in that moment it's really hard for us to see that we have a choice or a different choice that we could possibly make. Because sometimes it just feels like we're frigging stuck in a situation in life. And they were running, and I understand. Yeah.

They were running so fast. They're going house to house. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of pressure moving tons of Coke. Yeah, I can imagine. It's high stress. Yeah. So then they made that choice.

This was 2005. What year did they do? 2005 they turned themselves in. Yeah. So they go to the border. I think it's through a lawyer, right? It's Val helps. Yeah, so.

Yeah. So, you get to contact with a lawyer and that's how the whole process. Oh, good. You do know the story. You might not know where I'm from. but you do know the story. I'm sorry. No, it's all right. You got to get your Wikipedia page off. Well, you should have read it. We don't do much prep for the show. So, well, lessening that next time. Give me a phone. Next time you got somebody and I'll tell you, I'll give you like some bullet points really quickly.

Will they come on this podcast? Can you get us the Flores twins? Yeah. Really? I could. So are they on the run? Are they in witness protect, WittSec, I think? Um, I can't say. Okay. Oh, you can't even say that. No, but I could, maybe, I don't know whether they'd do it and suck with you, but I could definitely get you. We would fly to wherever they were at. I don't know if they'd let us.

We could, it wouldn't have to be. Well, you can't go to where they're at. That's even worse than them coming here. It's probably like South Dakota or something. They probably got them. Are they in the United States? Yes. Okay.

Okay. Gotcha. Now, they turn themselves in. how long, how long, because Chapo doesn't, how long before the indictment? Like, how long did they have to? Six years before. Six years of cooperating? Before they knew, before they were sentenced, yeah.

How long? Because they were like not going to be sentenced until Chappo got caught. That was the whole thing. But obviously they didn't know that. So I'll give you a quick rewind because I think it's really interesting. Yeah, of course. Because we were talking about cooperating and you know that it's not, it's not like years. It is a bit quick of information.

Let me download and then let me go. They cooperated for eight months in Mexico. So eight months of actually doing this in Mexico right under the nose of Chapo. Holy shit. Yeah. Holy shit. Whatever you think. I mean, like, I don't even know how they held their nerve to be able to do that.

Because if Chapo would have found out at any point or any of them would have found out, because at that time, it was still, it was still, myo was, it was not fractured. So they were all together. All three of them, right? That's right. So, I just can't even imagine. You know, I got them to tell me, to walk me through the story. So eight months, but the feds were like, well, we don't deal with fugitives.

So, you know, they weren't exactly going to protect them. Right. And so what they had to get was they had to get a piece of evidence on tape of Chapo of showing the connection between Chapo and drugs coming into America, into the state. So, you know, everybody knows what Chapo was doing, but they couldn't get that key piece of evidence. And that's what, that's why the twins were so valuable, because the twins got the key piece of evidence, you know, which we play in the podcast, you know, because I made to Vinal Chapo. And that's a pretty famous, uh, conversation now. Yeah.

And they're just for the listeners that don't know, you can look at, I actually YouTube that last night. It's, is it Pete or Jay? Pete. Pete is, uh, gets chopo. He basically orders, uh, no, Pete has a discussion with choppo. He says, hey, could you lower the price of on a kilo of heroin? Because the, the heroin I've got isn't bad, but it wasn't bad. So he was lying. Right. Because he had to say it was bad because why would, because Chapo would then question why he wanted more. Right. Right. So he had to say it was a bad load. It was bad. It couldn't really move it that well. Yeah. If you you could, if you could drop the price on it, uh,

that I can get you your money faster. Yeah. And that was enough. That, that directly linked, uh, chopo to, that was a damning piece of evidence,

I believe, right? Yes. And the indictment. Yeah, I mean, it was the key piece of evidence. Right.

Because nobody got Chapo on tape. Right. Basically. It was like, you know, recording. Right. I'm actually doing it.

Was that, was there any other, was that, what was the other big? I know eventually in his trial. like after he escaped Mexican prison, they captured him again, and then they finally extradited him. I know like a bunch of people testified against him. Yeah. But in the original case, was there, what was there any other evidence besides that phone call? Well, the key, Pete, it was their testimony.

Yeah. And that phone call. When did they go into prison? Because it, because it was loads of people's testimonies, right? They were the only ones that had this like tangible piece of evidence. And one of the things Pete said, it's like Pete was the one that had to then go and stand in court and testify against Chapo face to face. And that's in season two. And, you know, even if people don't, well, I want people to listen to the whole thing.

But just listen to that. Because it's over two episodes and Pete just talks us through it. And Pete's such an amazing storyteller because because he's got that trauma in his head. So he tells it like so in the moment because you can feel it viscerally of what's

happening because he's so good at in that story because you can, when I speak to him, you can see he's literally playing it in his head. He's not saying, oh, well, this happened. This happened, you know, it's like the emotion and the trauma is still very much in his head. So it makes it like a gripping piece of story to listen to, basically. But he had to go up against Chapo. And I remember him saying to me, like, Pete, well, you know, they could have just played the tape. Because that, that was it.

Yeah. They didn't even, you know, need me to stand there. give testimony or really anybody else's testimony because the tape was the tape. You can't, you can't lie on the tape. They proved that it was his voice. You know, as soon as they got the tape, the Pete and Jay met the feds in Mexico. Two of them were there and handed the tape over and they verified it.

And then that was it. That was the key piece of evidence. And they were like, right, we're going to, you know, we need to take you in the next day. Gotcha. And they were like, fuck. Like they didn't realize it was going to be so quick. So they weren't prepared to them be lifted out of Mexico. And actually the family, which is in the heroin story, just got left behind and they had to find their own way across the border.

And they just literally had to leave and pack up. Going back to that thing about they just had to leave the house immediately. And they had to grab any like identifying things on pictures on the wall or anything and just try and then just leave Mexico. And they had to drive through Los Zetas, the opposition cartels. territory to get across the border. And it was literally like, oh my God, again, a really gripping story to listen to for them to get across the border before the cartel found out what J&P had done.

Because all of a sudden, obviously, J&P disappeared, right? Right, right. And so... Because they were pulled out by the fence. Of course. So their phones are off. You know, their suppliers can't find them. Yeah.

How long... Then what happens? then they're taken to Chicago, they're booked. They're taken to the US, yeah. Are they charged, are they recharged with the original indictment from years earlier? No, well, that's a good question. It probably is a combination. I would assume so, right?

Yeah, I would assume so. That's a good question. I don't actually, I presume it's a combination. Yeah. In exchange for what they're giving. Otherwise, they would just be rats. That's actually the most despicable kind of, I hate to use the word rat. Because of what they've also done.

distributed, you know, at the time, they were the biggest truck traffickers in North America. It wasn't just the indictment out of shit. They had multiple indictments against them. Sorry. You're right. That's my question. It was the, you know, so there was an indictment. There was one out of Wisconsin, one out of Illinois, which would be Chicago.

There was like so many different indictments out of different areas for them. You're absolutely right. Sorry. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. So, and then how long? And that was 2005, more or less.

2006 and then Choppel wasn't arrested until... 2000... Well, the second final time was 2015. Right. And that's the one that Pete testified in. Right. Right. So what were they doing through all those years? Were they in prison?

Cooperating. Were they also in prison while they were cooperating? And they agreed to help... Oh yeah. They were in prison. They were kept in solitary in the shoe. Yeah, which is brutal. It's solitary confinement. Shoot, the special housing unit.

Where were... Special housing unit? Were they in prison or were they being held at like the detention center in Chicago or in the area. Originally they were held at, in Chicago, at the MCC. Yeah, right, right. And which, by all accounts, is where a lot of people are held when they're... That's where all the federal detainees are held.

Yeah. Cooperating or not. It's, that's where, you know, the MCC, Brooklyn is where they kept Chapo, MCC, Los Angeles. Yeah, it's like when they're, yeah. So they were in Chicago for like around eight. well, for the first year, let's say. Right.

And again, there's kind of a little bit of a funny story because every time they were transported, there was like a convoy and it was at the same time that Obama was in the area. And those people thought it was Obama's convoy. But actually, like, the chances are during that time, it was actually the Flores. Right.

Twins. Yeah, not Obama. So those people were like, oh, it's Obama. So they spent a lot of money guarding these guys. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because they were key to getting chaper. Of course.

Like they were like high value assets. Right. Right. So then after that, they were then transported to a different prison, which I'm not allowed to say, which one, because it was a WittSec prison. So a prison just for high value informants. Yeah. And then they were split, which is again an absolutely fascinating story. So part of their, they got a special privilege where they were allowed to stay together.

And so initially there were cellies and they were allowed to stay together. Then they were moved from Chicago to another prison, which I'm not allowed to disclose where. And then they were separated because of an absolutely bonkers story, which is in episode two of the second season, which you have to listen to. Which, if you want, I can talk through it. And they got separated because of something that they... Tease it. They can go listen to it. Okay. So they...

Oh, God, I don't even know how to tease it. No, no, don't tease it I meant. I meant that's enough of a teaser. I want them to go here. Oh, right. Okay, because they did something. And I managed to pull pictures of this thing that they did from back in 2005, 6. And they fed the prison service found out that it was them that did it.

And they felt that it compromised the location. And the reason why I can't say the location is because there was really high value people in this location, not high value, high value assets. Yeah. that were in WITSEC under witness protection. It's like people that don't. It's like a witness protection in prison. But they were held in the shoe, which is special housing unit, which is where they're kept on their own, right?

And then they got separated in the middle of the night. And then that's the last time they saw each other in prison. Oh, that's fucked up. Yeah, which is, again, such a, like, I say fascinating and I feel really bad saying that, but it is a really compelling story. Yeah. And because you listen to what then happened to both of them separately. And don't forget they're identical twins.

And it's the first time ever in their entire life that they've ever been on their own. Because like, I don't know what, you know, whether you've got siblings, but like I've got brothers, younger brothers. But like, you know, I don't, I didn't spend every second with them and I'm older than them. So I spent time on my own, right? Whereas if you're an identical twin, you're like, well, you're freaking born together and you're never spent ever. They never spent any time on their own. They're best friends. Yeah.

They're kind of one. They're closer than best friends. They're like one person. And they're like two halves, right? So when they got separated, they were like, I'm gone. You know, I can't, I don't have, it wasn't just about having a friend. It was like, that's the other half of who I am. And that's how we, we maneuver.

So it's really interesting where they both talk through because they said that Jay had to be more like Pete and Pete had to learn how to be more like Jay. to try and like survive prison. That is alone. So not alone. That's fascinating. And they got separated in different prisons. And I can tell you one place they went, one of them went to because some of it's protected. So I'm not allowed to say the location.

But Jay went after when they got separated from that place where they did the thing, which you need to go and listen to. He went to MTC, New York. And it's the one that's now shut down. And because of the horrific conditions. said it was just like horrific and he, him and his wife actually pushed for him to be moved to a different prison. So after like, I don't know, like another six, ten months there, he got moved to another prison and then Pete ended up getting moved to another prison and then it was horrific

and her awful conditions and he ended up in really awful conditions. Because they also, one of them, this thing that they did, it was one of them mainly, but the other one got blamed wrongly because because they couldn't tell them apart, because they're identical. So they couldn't tell them apart and got pulled the wrong twin to put him, to put, they basically put Jay in the MCC, New York thinking it was Pete. And they did it on purpose to give him bad conditions. All right, class, settle down. Today's lesson is on the Argo Rewards app. Try to stay with me.

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Wow. You know what they could have done? Maybe not. Maybe one of them could have turned themselves in and been like, yeah, it was just me. There's only one of us. I did everything. I don't know. Maybe.

I don't know. Hindsight's 2020. But, okay, this is crazy. So. But then what were the other one? It would have still been the same thing, right? The other one would have had to go on the run. Yeah.

And also then it's the whole thing where I don't think they're the same, like, they relied on each other so much. They're one. Yeah, they're one. That's such a fascinating thing. Were they in isolation the whole time when they were in prison? Yeah. Were they allowed out of their cells even?

Well, they were for like, they had an hour. They were by themselves though. They would be, yeah, totally. Yeah, but they did have, at times they did have cellmates, which again is totally. Sometimes I couldn't even, if I was writing a scripted show, I couldn't even write it as good as this real life.

Because, you know, it's such a story to be phrase, but it's like, you know, you couldn't even write this shit. But like, literally, you couldn't even write this shit. Don't worry, 50 cents working on it right now. I know. I know. I know.

I don't you worry. Don't forget who created and made the podcast. Yeah. Hell yeah. No, that's dope as that. I love that, man. Yeah, and I mean, it'll make a fast. It'll make an amazing script.

show. So they did have cellmates at times and the crazy cellmate, the crazy coincidence of a cellmate they had, Pete ended up being cellies with Sammy the ball, right? And they both

got to know Sammy the ball and Sammy the ball taught Jay how to play chess, but Sammy the ball was a reason which gave them the idea to cooperate and then what a weird I don't even believe in coincidences, how they ended up in prison with Sammy the ball. And it was watching a documentary of basically Sammy the Bull cooperating

that gave them the idea to cooperate because he'd killed. Yeah. Right. That gave Jay the idea. Yeah, because it was a John Gotti documentary and Sammy the Bull cooperated.

But Sammy the Bull had killed loads of people. Yeah. That's an even more despicable. And he only got five years or something like that. So that was the documentary. And he was like, well, then we haven't killed anyone.

So maybe we won't get it. And that's how it all started. And then he ended up being a cellie with Sammy the Bull. It's crazy. And they play chess together. And the fact that they, only gave him five years for 19 bodies. Yeah, that was in 19.

And these guys never killed anyone directly. I mean, I know drugs kill people, a lot of people. But like, it's just such a, it's the absurdity of the American system. How much time did they, did their lawyers fight for? Like, they gave, they gave them 14 years. That was her sentence. But were they trying to negotiate down a little bit? I think they thought they'd get less.

I'm sure they did. Yeah. I mean, they did. They thought they would get less than 14 years. years. And when Pete testified against Chapo, the government, you know, a couple of the US attorneys gave, you know, put a letter to the judge saying, you know, to reduce their sentence by two years and they didn't get the reduction. Didn't get the reduction. Interesting. Interesting. Because they were such good cooperators, basically. Why? Okay, and they

got out what year? I don't even know if I can say. but they're not still in there. No, they're not. Okay, so. But yeah, but it wasn't 2019. It was a lot later. Right, right. Okay.

But it wasn't this year. But they did the full 14 years? I'll give you a click. They did a full 14. No, they did 12 and a bit. Got it. So they actually got good time. They must have got good time off.

Yeah, so that was time off, but they didn't get two years because of cooperating and because he's Pete face chappo. He didn't get any more. He didn't get any extra. No, any extra. But that was like the time off. And what is it? Like a two months every year, is it?

85% of your time. 85% yeah. So they got all good time because of the, they did courses, you know, like Pete ran a Bible class. Jay ran a self-help, you know,

motivational class that he came up with the curriculum of. And they did loads of the courses in prison. And so they got that 85% time off. You got to be a real fuck up to lose good time in isolation. You know what I mean? Like you got to really be,

you know, a special kind of criminal. Okay? Episode two? Yeah, because they did, that's what got them separated. The few things that they did. Right. And the episode's called Baby, Bentley, Billboard.

Okay. So that gives you a tease. There was a baby at Bentley and some billboards. Wow. All three separate incidents, all kind of roughly in the first year. Right. Wow. Okay.

Man, it's such an odyssey. Do you think we should talk about why? their wives are now, or is it just Val? No, it's both. Okay, do you think that's teasing it? Because I would like to know why are they locked up. Yeah, but then people might just listen to this and not the series. I know, no, no, no, no.

You're like, yeah, okay, fair enough. That's a consideration, though. I mean, people have attention spans of, you know, fucking two-year-olds. I don't know. I disagree with you, but that seems to be our MO, right? I'm just going to disagree with everything you say. Yeah, this is what makes for good podcasting. Believe it or not.

agree on that because I think people actually want interesting story and interesting conversation. And actually that's just dumbing people down. So tell us then why, I mean. I'll give you a little bit then because it's really important part of the story. Of course, of course. Because these women suffered a lot. Yeah. And like Val's, you know, Val is Jay.

So Val is Jay's wife and Viviana is Pete's wife. And, you know, they've both been through a lot. I'm both very different women. And, you know, Val, I think, is very interesting and inspirational in a way for women because she's been through a lot. She, you know, I don't want to kind of like disclose things that I shouldn't because she's disclosed things to me in confidence. But, you know, she did go through a lot when she was younger.

And she was then kind of used as a drug meal. Yeah. Ended up getting into the life. Yeah. She was big time. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

And she ended up marrying Cato, who was like head of the Latin Kings. Oh. Before Jay. Right. You know, and there was... It's fair to say she liked bad boys. Well, yeah. But then there was also like, you know, in a serious, there's a lot of manipulation and coercive

control in that. And there was a lot of domestic abuse and abuse in that situation. And so, yes. but at the same time like, you know, what some of the men do to these women

is horrific and it's also really hard to get out of that situation. Of course, of course. It's not as simple as like, I don't like what you're doing and walk. Yeah, yeah. Really isn't.

Of course. Yeah, and then she met Jay and she married Jay and actually one of the reasons why Jay ended up cooperating and wanting to turn his life around is because of his family and because of his family.

and because of Val. Yeah. And they wanted to try and change their life. And they did have kids. And that's what made the difference to them. And they didn't want their kids to be brought up in that life. And they didn't want their kids to do what the twins had done. Of course.

And they felt like, I don't know I said this, but they felt like they didn't have a choice. And I know there is an argument at times that maybe they did. But when they were younger. And they felt like it was always to try and their father had this thing over them. know, to try and prove there enough. And I think some of us can relate to that in many different ways with our parents or our moms and dads and what, what it's like in those situations.

Did Val and Vivian, sorry? Yeah, Viv, yeah. Did Val and Viv think they were going to have to do time when the twins first turned themselves in? Absolutely not. Gotcha. So how did that evolve? So the argument, and it's an agree to disagree argument, by the wives going to prison,

and they did plead guilty, it doesn't mean that the. agreed, it's that they were put in a situation where they were told that if it did go to trial, they'd probably get an unfair trial because of public perception. Of course. So, the, okay, it's slightly complicated, but let me see if I can do it in like a really short, kind of, like, succinct way. And there's a lot of nuance. So listen to the podcast for the new ones because it plays the whole story out.

And because it's, it's, you know, something that happened there, links to their, links to their, links to there, links to there, right? but as part of the cooperation deal of Jay and Pete the twins their wives got immunity that's what they thought and they were led to believe and they were told and there was no way this is what Pete and Jay said that they would have cooperated without protecting their family so they got a visa they got you know things for that the older brother at the time was in Mexico Armando right so they made sure that they got self-protection and a visa, that the father got protection and a visa, and that the wives

were protected from any charges associated with the drug debts or the drug dealing or anything to do with the twins' activities. Right. Right. Yeah. So, and that's the so-called deal, apparently, that was made. And then they proffered. The wives did profit.

and gave information to, Val did. So the government actually used Val. At one point, they put on a wiretap. Stop proffering. Stop proffering. God. Well, you know, and again, this is, what I find so interesting about this is by the end of the season, you decide who you think was right.

For sure. Because you could argue that the government didn't. And even the government, I spoke to the former US attorney who did this case, who did the Chapo case with the twins, worked for a decade with the twins on the chapo case that was like did the government really need to go after the wives was that a good use of government resource was that the moral thing to do nobody ever wants to ask what's right of course it wasn't right well was it the moral no to know

for the government to go after the women who have children yeah like it's fucked up yeah but you got know that's fucked up like don't where's the lawyer at i have so many questions and also what I questioned was why now? Why didn't they do this back? This is for, so I'm going all over the houses, but like the wives have been charged with conspiracy to money laundering from drug debts that were collected back in 2008 when the twins went to prison. Right.

So sorry, the twins, I know we were saying 2005, but the twins went to prison in 2008. Yeah. So what they're now going to prison for in 2023, and actually Val's going to prison in 2024 is for money from 2008. So I questioned why it wasn't then and why they waited for the twins to come out of prison 12 years later

to then go after the wives because that's what happened. And what about the statute of limitations? Like I guess the statute goes back further than 15 years. I don't know. Yeah. And how much time are they getting? three and a half years each.

But they thought they were going to get more. The system's bloodthirsty. So, yeah. And then it's the question of like, is that a good use of the resource? And again, I want to try and be a bit like both sides because when I spoke to the US government,

because I did get both sides, which I think was really important. And that's how I round the whole thing up. It's like I do speak to the US attorney who worked the Chapo case with the twins. And he said, you know, he spent more time with the twins than he did with his own family.

Wow. And he's fond of the twins. And he thought they were nothing but honest. And they did get a little bit of trouble going back to the baby, the belly and the billboard. But other than that, they were nothing but honest. They gave the information. It was an all or nothing deal. Now, the argument is that the government are arguing that the twins broke the promise and the trust

because the wives did have some money. they gave $14 million to the government, which is what the government wanted. Right. But the wives argue that there was immunity and they knew that they had some of the other money that they had to live off. And, you know, one of them had to move 16 times

due to viable death threats. Right. So, you know, they were single moms. They had no way of earning. They were saying that, you know, and the government were aware of some of the money and they're saying, well, the government broke the trust because the government agreed that this immunity deal. Yeah.

And they gave, and the twins and the wives gave them, gave everything, gave all the information. And the government broke the trust, whereas the government now arguing that the wives broke the trust because they did use some drug debt money. They didn't disclose the drug money. Well, apparently the wives said they did. And the government weren't interested because they just wanted that 40 million of, which it was called DC money from D.C. and they just wanted Chapo. So all they focused on was getting chaplain. At this point, they didn't have chapeau. So they didn't care about the wives.

So obviously this is a different US attorney than the one that dealt with the twins and the Chabot case. Yeah, because now all those attorneys have gone. So it's different prosecutors. And that's what they're saying is one of the defense's reasons why they, why is because they're new prosecutors who want a prosecution and are going after the wives. Whereas if it was the old prosecutors, it would have been a different case. Just to throw in a bit of a bombshell. Yeah.

One of the prosecutors who worked the case called Thomas Shakeshaft, who, who was really close to the twins and the wives died a week before the wives pre-trial hearing. Oh, wow. So he couldn't stand up for him. Yeah. And he was meant to, he was meant to be a witness. Wow. That's crazy.

So they ended up, did they end up going to trial for this wedding order? No, they didn't go to trial. So they wanted, one of the wives, Val, did want to go to trial, but didn't go to trial, but didn't go to trial because they were advised that they wouldn't get a fair trial because of perception. Yeah. And if you blow trial in the feds, man, you would do 10 years. Yeah. And they would do more time because originally it was talking, Val was looking at 10 years. Yeah. And so in the end, it went through a lot of pre-trial hearings, which I sat and listened to. And in the end, they were advised to take, you know, to take the plea deal. Do they have good lawyers? Do they have good

attorneys like I mean because the government should be sued I mean I would be suing to the day I die for for breaking this agreement you know so well I just find it unbelievable but it's also more complicated than that because the government is saying that that that agreement didn't exist and that they that the agreement didn't exist or otherwise I're saying it did exist and then there's like a bit of again there's a lot of nuance to this this isn't like straightforward black and white so I work through this in the second season is that when Pete testified against

Chappo and he came to face to face with him they prepped him for like 18 months to take the stand every single day they prepped Pete right and part of Chapo's defense was questioning Pete for the basically for the deal

that he got and it was brought up about getting the wives immunity so Pete said under oath in the court case against Chappo that he did get immunity for his wife and nobody questioned it. Oh, sure. Yeah. So that should be, I mean, yeah, I know the government has done some egregious things,

but this is, you know, now we're moving on to 20 years since they turned it, turned themselves in. Do you think? No, 2008. Oh, okay. So 2005 is when they went to Mexico and first met Chappos. Yeah, in 2008 is when they went to. So we're now 15 years in. By the time they get out, though, it's going to be.

a 20 year, 20 years of hell. Stint of trying to change their lives, basically. And are the wives living with the husbands in the undisclosed location? Yeah. And then... Well, one of them goes to prison, like, as we're recorded. Right. And the other one goes to prison at the top of the year.

And how many kids do they each have? Each of the... I don't want to say how many. But they have a few kids each. Yeah, they do. And actually, one thing which was really powerful, which is in the second season of Surviving El Chap, is I did sit down with some of the younger kids.

And it was like, it's, I mean, I was just listening to it because I'm just locking up the final episodes right now. And it is so powerful. I have to say, like, I just sat on the floor. Like we cleared, you know, we kind of cleared. And when I just sat on the floor and they sat on like chairs and I just sat and listened to them. And I was like, do you want to tell me, you know, your story? Yeah. Do you want to, you know, talk to me?

Because I got to know them like quite a lot. And the kids are so lovely. They're wonderful children. they were track they you know they did visit I mean one of them says how many days she spent in prison as a child visiting her father and again it's something that you know I really like to I like to challenge people on perception you know when you we first started talking you were like I mean first of you thought was Australian but you were like oh these are rats and it's like well you know maybe get to know why and and to me it's nothing's ever straightforward right so like even

with the, you know, with the kids, it's like the kids had a great relationship with their fathers, even though their father's in prison. That's, I don't know, there's a lot of fathers out there that don't even have, haven't even spent that much time with their kids. And every weekend, they were in prison and they talk about the trauma of that as well, though. So it's not like, oh, it was totally fine. Now, will the kids be able, if they want to have protection, like when their adults or does that does does the government protection run out at a certain point? I probably can't say any of that. Really?

No. Okay. Because it's really their children and it's and it's really important that nothing's disclosed about it. Oh, I thought that was just like a legal. I'm just curious. Like I would like to know, you know, because the president's kids get protection for life.

You know what I mean? But then if I say yes and no, then it lets people know whether they've got protection or not. Oh, sure, sure. So like, does Pete, could they make the choice? Like, say 20 years from now, all his enemies, he assumes are gone. Could they tell the government if they wanted to, even tomorrow, hey, we don't want protection anymore. We want to just go back to living a normal life.

Maybe we want to go back to Chicago. Do they have the right to do that? They're not going to go back to Chicago. But you don't think, do you think they'll live, do you think Pete and Jay will live the rest of their life in WITSEC? Well, they can't live the rest of the life in Witsack. Or I'm sorry, witness protection. No, they can't live there

the rest of their life in winter protection. The government can't give them a witness protection for the rest of their life. That's my question, essentially. Okay, so it will run out at a certain point. Okay. Why are you pressing me on this? No, it's just, it's an interesting question.

I know. Yeah, but it's not, like, I don't, it's not for me to say because there are, there have been viable threats on their life. Still? Even, even today. Wow. I mean, they cooperated against Chapman.

Yeah. And their father, their father was tragically killed. What year was that? That was in 2000, I'd say nine. Right, right. Must have been 2009.

Yeah. Because it was quite early days. Right. And, you know, they did get a threat that said, you know, we'll come after you when you're least expecting it. Right. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, wow. Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, and that's people can, like you said, people after listening to this, after going and listening to surviving El Chapo can make the decision about

whether they think it was worth it for them. Do you think talking to them now? And that's the big question. Do they obviously, I guess, I assume they think it's worth it? Pete and Jay? I've asked them many times. And I think when I ask Pete,

he says sometimes, I don't know. Like Pete's a bit more kind of sometimes, I think, was it all worth? it and it depends which day it is. And I, you know, I think it's really, really upsetting that his wife's going to prison. Of course. Because Viviana's like definitely, um, struggled with this whole situation.

And I think she's very scared. And I think they're very scared. So I think that, you know, if you ask P, it's a bit more like, it depends what day. Do you think he resents Jay at all from? Bringing that to him? No. No, because I think they, I don't think he's that kind of, it's a good question though. Like, it's a good question and something maybe I didn't, I haven't asked that.

Yeah. And because for me, they make the decisions together so they don't ever see it like that. I think there's like some arguments about certain things, but it's never about that because they both agreed together to do that. Right. Because Pete, Jay wouldn't have done it if Pete hadn't agreed. Pete actually said no. Oh, he was like,

you're at your fucking mind. Yeah. Fucking don't talk to me. And then he didn't get brought up again. And then like several days later, Pete phoned Jay and went, so how would we do it? All right.

So, and so Jay would never have done it. They only make decisions together. So I don't think there's any resentment there and not anything I've remotely picked upon. Right. But I think with Pete is a bit more like, fuck,

I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Because look at our situation. Whereas with Jay, I think he still feels it's the right thing. So I think there's a slight difference. With Jay, I think he feels that, like, you know,

he's given his kids a different life and he has. Like, you know, they're not doing any, you know, they're really well educated. They've got an amazing education. Like, again, I don't want to give too much away. But honestly, like, if they are punished for the rest of their lives, they have changed the cycle. Sure.

And that's what I find so fascinating. And like they have changed the legacy of the Flores name. Yeah. Even if Jay and Pete and their wives suffer for the rest of their lives. Right. And obviously there's some suffering for the children because like their mothers are about to go in prison, which is awful. And some of the kids are young. Yeah.

Like again, like I don't even give ages away on the podcast, but they're not grown. Yeah. So there's a lot of pain there because, you know, they suffered through. You know, they want to, you know, they saw when Val was arrested, you know, they saw Val, you know, they saw Val being arrested and the kids got put AK-47 to their heads and some of the kids were like, you know, arrested and it was just, I don't know. To me, that's like, I don't. That's what your taxes are going for. So the DEA agents, some bum can put a gun to a little three-year-old's head. That's fantastic. And it's awful. Like Val talks us through what that was like and the kids tell me,

you know, how upsetting and what that was like. They couldn't have just called them and been like, hey, you got to turn yourself in. We're going to raid your house. Yeah, and they put, they corners off the whole area. Yeah. But a SWAT team. Make a spectacle out of it. Yeah.

When it's like you have our numbers, you're paying to protect us. And also, they're, what's going on? They're also out on, what is it called? I've just totally forgotten. Come on give me the word. Cold sack? No, no. It's in like, obviously the feds know where they are because they're not out on

what's the other words? Probation. Probation, thank you. So they've got five years probation where they're monitored all the time. All the time. So it's a really good question that you asked because it's like, why did they need to do that? Because the twins are monitored all the time. And they're out there, you know, they have offices who they have to check in with all the time.

So the fact that they put a SWAT team in for the wives, they're not drug dealing. They weren't doing anything. They were basically using some money that they thought they could use. because they got an immunity deal back from 2008 to pay their rent and to pay their kids' education, basically. Totally. I think it's... But the million dollar question is what you asked.

It's the question. Why? Is, well, it's... Was it the... Was it worth it? Yeah. Was it worth it? Yeah.

From where I sit, no. But then they got kids. For me, because... Because I, if I've got my family, I, if I have my kids and my wife, the most important people to me, and I have a hundred million dollars, do you know what that does in a place like Argentina? It buys you the country. Do you know what that does in a place like Uruguay or, you know, Brazil? Like, I would rather go be free in a country that's not mine if I'm with the most important people.

But they felt that they couldn't because they felt they would have been killed. So for them, they maybe they think that the situation they have now is better because they don't think any of them would have been alive right they think they would have all been killed and the whole family would have been slaughtered right so that and that's coming from their you know and they know their situation we don't know exactly what that was like now now now they definitely would not have had that kind of threat because senilo has been fractured they they're coming down hard on them i mean we know for a fact we've had people on here who have interviewed guys who ratted on Chapo, because a lot of people are ratting on choppo, Mayo's son ratted on Chapo. All of the kingpins in Mexico rat on each other. Chopo ratted on the Beltrauded. But that's my point of when we first started talking when you were like, their rats.

And I'm like, everybody cooperates. Even their own sons, even Chapo's own son, even Mayo's own son. Like, they cooperate against their own fathers. Totally. My argument. And that's why I think people should understand. It's not. Totally.

You know, they're not an anomaly. But what I'm saying is too. Because they went to the police themselves. But what I'm saying is the threat, in my opinion, in America or outside of Mexico, is over exaggerated. Because they, this guy who was a rat was in Mexican newspapers walking around no bodyguards with his girlfriend at SeaWorld a couple of months ago. This was, this was a guy who basically was supposed to be where, uh, where the Chapitos are today. in terms of like their prominence. They were the guy who Chapo or excuse me, Mayo Damosol.

He was the guy that Mayo gave the reins to. And that's how the war between Choppos, Chappo's sons were supposed to be next up when Chappo went down. But there was this guy, Damasol, who Mayo granted the power to. And that's where the fracturing went. Damasol eventually ran it on everybody,

gave up everybody. he's walking around in, you know, in America with no protection, no nothing. So that's my only argument is that I think like, I always think the cartel does not act. They're very rational people. They're logical people. They don't kill on this side. They really don't, especially now because they know they're going to get caught. They do that in Mexico because they control everything.

And they're more fractured and weaker than ever. That is my opinion. It's interesting because I, because, well, lost Apitos are obviously in charge at the moment of the Sinaloa and they're far more chaotic and violent than Chapo and not as controlled in that sense. Right. So, and also the drug war is worse than ever right now. Right. But in terms of like the danger on the twins, that's not what they say. that well look I mean look I guess they know better than me I'm just I'm looking at it from like a numbers

perspective and a lodge and anecdotes and you know obviously like they're so close to it um look they they're more worried about their kids like that's their number one priority god bless them truly you've you've changed my mind you've changed my mind in two hours you know what I mean so but this is compelling shit well look yeah at the end of the day it's not for me to Yeah. Like, you know, I wanted to try and challenge a little bit of your opinion because, you know, you can still think, anybody can think what they want. But I think at least be informed about him. So at least I'm not saying that you're not.

I just mean listen and listen to the whole story, be informed about it. And then, you know, make your own opinion and your judgment. And again, it's not, I don't want people to think I am like just giving one side because I'm not because I do challenge them. Like, we did sit and have a really frank conversation. because something happened within my own family at the same time as I was recording and I did tell them about it and I did really challenge them

and that's when they've said to me a lot actually through this whole process of spending the last couple of years with them and working with them that it made them think a lot and it made them think about their own decisions and actually what they wanted for their life and some of the things that they've done and we had some really frank conversations

it's not like I've just sat there going, oh, you know, like I'm so, I'm so, you know, we've had some really honest conversations and I feel like that's what's built this kind of respect, um, between us because I've seen a lot of destruction of the other side of what you can do, um, through addiction. Yeah. Um, so. Are they getting a piece of this? Are they getting a piece of, like using their names? No, no, like the, for the, the podcast series and potentially like the, the TV series of

this develops because I can completely see. at developing, especially with Curtis at the reins. Maybe it already is. There we go. So do you have to pay them for their likeness? Do they at least get... Like, how do they earn money now, I guess? Now, if they're in witness protection, they can't go back to drug dealing.

It's a good question. Yeah, like, how do they make money? I can't say anything to do with this project. Okay. But... Like, can they go get jobs? Well, again, this is the thing. So Pete has a legitimate business that he is trying to run and it's really interesting because he's using logistics to try and yeah right because that's

his knowledge sure sure um and p uh sorry and j it wants to um you know tell his story more and he wants it to be motivational so he's actually started to do classes with i'll wonder what you think of this and with law enforcement about trying to teach them more about the insight of drug trafficking and how to how to change things and he said if look i can have an impact on the thing that I contributed to, then that's worth everything. So he's under protection, starting to do law enforcement.

Look at your face. I don't like it. My gut reaction is, I don't love it. But I mean, I think it's an amazing thing to do because he could sit there and just like... For him to have the forgiveness, though,

of the same law enforcement who raided his house and took his wife away. You know what, Johnny, asked that exact question. I ex-exed that same thing. And I said, you know, the same people, because he gave a class the same weekend, his wife got sentenced. And I saw them and I saw how much pain and how much suffering and emotion and, and like struggle. It was bringing to Val. Like I sat with her and, you know, and the impact it's having on her mental health. Like,

You know, I spent time with her and it's hard. But then at the same time, Jay's working with law enforcement, but that's not how they see it. And again, no matter what you think and you can judge them all day long, their mentality is fascinating. Yeah, it is for sure. Because to me, I would be a bit like that. Because I feel like, well, why you've come after my wife, you know, my partner.

But now I'm kind of helping you. but he doesn't see it like that. It's not helping law enforcement. And he wants to change a wider, it's holistic, right? It's a bigger picture. He wants to have an impact and do something and leave some kind of legacy and show his children to be proud of him.

He wants his children to be proud of him. And he wants to be motivational. And in the end, what he wants to do, you know, you ask about money and money, is he also wants to, in the end, influence young people and try and get them off the street. And he knows that, you know, I don't know whether that's something that,

you know, I don't know why you do this, podcast? Is it, is it to raise awareness? Is it just? No, not really. No, okay. Not really. Just earn some money? Just for a laugh? Just for kicks? Or is it actually because you want to, you want to spread a message, you want to talk about things, give an insight that people may maybe not have? If we can, great. Like this episode is different than a lot. I love telling stories. I love. I try not to be anything but entertaining. But obviously my opinion seeps out, but like, yeah, I know, you know, but yeah, no, no, it's never, we need. But, but yeah, no, it's never, we never try to do any good for the community or spread a message. I want to make that

very clear. It's purely. But it's given insight, right? It's given insight, absolutely. And yeah, and insight is so fascinating because this is things that maybe people wouldn't know about unless you heard it from lived experience and from your own personal experience, right? And that's the same as like telling the Chapo, the survival chapo story of the Flores twins is they've never spoken. Nobody ever knew that story. And like, so many, there was news reports about them. Yeah. The only people that were ever talking about them was from the U.S. government side and the fed side. So it's now hearing it from the horse's mouth of what, what it was like for them and what they felt like. This is a, is like, this is dope, what you've done. So plug away, socials,

all of that. Tell them where to get the podcast. Go for it. So you can listen to Surviving Alchapu, the twins who brought down a drug lord. Thanks for the support. And thanks for saying it's dope. Appreciate it. No, it's great. And again, you know, it's not about judgment or opinion. I just, it's a fascinating story and the way I've done it is very detailed and you

really get in the moment and it's very present. It's like listening to your favorite HBO show. Thank you. Yeah. And I really worked hard on that and making sure you felt what it was like. It wasn't just a passive listen. So you can listen where. you get your podcast. Basically, it's on iHart, made it with Lionsgate sound, and you can just listen

wherever. And my name's Charlie Webster, and I am British, not Australian. And you can find me on socials, and it's just Charlie Webster. Yeah, hell yeah. That's awesome. And yeah, I hope to, I do hope to see it on the screen someday soon. But yeah, the podcast is, you know, I listen to a couple episodes, and I'm going to go back and I'm, I can play the whole thing out. It's great. Good. So thank you for coming on here, Charlie. Thank you for having me. Congrats on the success. Go follower and we will see you next time. Take care. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks having me. Yeah. It's been fun.