The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - The Saga Of A Mafia Legend: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano Reveals Untold Secrets From His Life In The Mob

Episode Date: August 18, 2024

Sammy "The Bull" Gravano is one of the most famous and notorious mafia figures in history. He was John Gotti's right hand man. He helped Gotti become the boss of the Gambino Crime Family and did PLENTY to get his hands dirty. When him and John were arrested by the FBI, Sammy made the decision to cooperate and help put the Teflon Don in prison for good. This is his story. Go Support Sammy! YouTube: @officialsammythebull IG: https://www.instagram.com/officialsammythebull/ Podcast: https://www.ourthing.tv/ This episode is #sponsored by the following brands: MANDO Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo MITCHELL at https://shopmando.com/ ! #mandopod MOOD Head over to https://mood.com/ and use promo code CONNECT at checkout to get 20% OFF your first order PLUS a FREE 5 count pack of gummies! Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We concluded that Paul broke so many rules himself. It's time to take him out, save John and his crew, and try to make Goshenosa back to what it's supposed to be. I said this is a do-or-die-hit. If there's cops, we'll shoot it out with the cops. If we live, we live. If we don't live, we're going to make history here. Today marks the 100th episode of the Connect podcast.

And to celebrate that milestone, we brought on the legend himself, the most infamous living mafia figure in American history, Sammy the Bull Gravano. Sammy was born in Brooklyn, New York in 1940. After serving a short stint in the Army in the late 1960s, Sammy returned to Brooklyn, where he was quickly recruited by a captain in the Genevese Crime Family. By the early 1970s, he was a made man and eventually landed with the Gambino Crime Family, where he would remain the rest of his criminal career.

Sammy takes us through the glory days of the Gambino crew when he and John Gotti virtually ran New York City and explains what led to their decision to pull off the hit on their boss, Paul Castellano, the details of which are absolutely chilling but fascinating. And finally, he opens up about what really took place in the final John Gotti trial and the reason that he eventually chose to flip

and cooperate with the feds against John. This interview will give you an entirely new perspective on Sammy and clarify some of the myths surrounding the most controversial and legendary mafia figure still alive today. He is truly the last of a dying breed. And to this day, Sammy is still hustling. He's got a great podcast, Our Thing, which you can find on his YouTube page, as well as books, social media. He's even on cameo. Go over at his website, sammy thebold.com. And for our Patreon episode this week, we had on our good friend.

friend J.D. Delay is a bonus episode. You can get that over at patreon.com slash the Connect show. Okay, without further ado, it's episodes like this that make me grateful that I get to do this podcast. And for you, the listener, for making it all possible, I present to you, Sammy the Bull, right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. John betrayed me. Not the whole mafia. John, he was backing up these tapes that he got caught on. I'm not on these tapes. I got caught on His tapes talking about me, my murders, and everything else, and himself. And while I'm in prison, I tell him, John, is that what you really want to do? Yeah, Sam, you have to.

I'm the boss. The boss must go free. I know one thing. There's rules in the mafia. You live by those rules or you die by those. That's when I see lights behind me start to flash. And I didn't even think. I just hit it.

I was driving like my life depended on. And then I parked the car, popped out, closed the door. And I started running. And he pulls out a burner, Shang, it's like six inches. And then he passes it to me. And he goes, here, that's yours. Don't ever leave the cell block without this. He was the reason I made it out of that place alive.

So you're the last one standing from your generation. Is that fair to say? Well, no, I mean, I, you know, I know they're saying that a lot. I don't think that's actually true. There's a lot of guys who are around. there's guys on these podcasts all over the place I don't put them in my league but there were guys in the street

I still know and they're still around it's a different organization now they don't kill as much as they did of course not which is a good thing for them because they're not taking that kind of heat anymore you know

the cartels and the MS-13s, they take that kind of heat because they're killing just ridiculous numbers. So they take the heat, the mob isn't taking the heat, but they're around. And they do different kinds of crimes, not like they used to. But do you think people from that generation that you came up in the 70s through the early 90s when it kind of all fell apart, did, are there still guys that survived that era or are they all gone or retired or imprisoned forever? Well, there might be a few here and there.

Yeah. But really, I look like I'm one of the last of Mojans. That's right. Because of my age factor. Yeah. I mean, I'm 79 now pushing 80. I was always hanging out with guys who were older than me. Two, three, four.

John Gotti was four and a half years older than me. Franki de Chico was 14 years older than me. So they're all gone. So, and it's, so yeah. Do you feel like your enemies or anybody that would want to come out? at you from, you know, from what happened, from testifying and turning, do you think they're all gone? I mean, obviously, you still roll with some protection, but do you kind of feel like you're... I don't really roll with too much protection, but, no, I don't feel like that.

I, you know, I'm not allowed to go to New York and New Jersey, and I had asked my parole officer, why. Are you worried about me? No, it's not that at all. they said to be honest Sammy somebody in Washington they have a lot of people who are cooperators now and talking the clubs are bugged

everything is going on a lot of the mob people that they're following the important people they love you they love how you talk they love what you're doing I don't put the mafia down I don't do a lot of things like some of these other guys do

um there are that if you go back, you're going to have a welcoming from a lot of different people. You're going to feel it and you're going to try to take over. I said, that's ridiculous. She said, she's a boss now. And she said, Sammy, I know that. But some knucklehead in Washington, that's what their feelings are.

That's why you can't go there. I can go to Florida. I could come to California back and forth because they know I'm doing entertainment business. So there's not a problem. You're such a hustler. I think they're worried about that. Like in the back of their mind, they're like, the hustle hasn't quite left him yet, you know?

Yeah. Well, my hustle now is in Hollywood. Show business. Show business. I'm not going to take over Hollywood. Yeah. Not by physical or bad means, but by doing the right thing.

You know, everybody thinks because you were a tough guy, if you did a lot of work or work as far as killings and stuff like that, that's what excels you. It's not. What excels you is that how you do business, if you're honorable with people, people can trust you. They may fear you a little bit, but if they trust you, they like you, that excels you in a big way. Absolutely. Now, and I think I'm having the same thing in Hollywood.

I'm dealing with some really, really good people. And I'm excelling, not because they're afraid of me when I say take over Hollywood, it is because they trust me. They trust my word. When I put my hand out, I shake their hand. They can bank on it. And I've done a lot, a lot of good things. That's what excels you.

So I'm excelling for those reasons, not because I was going to hurt anybody. I don't want to hurt anybody anymore. I think one of the big misconceptions about your career in the life, Kosa Nostra, is that you were just a psychopath, you know, mass murderer, although there are a lot of bodies on you, respectfully. I went and researched you, and after the Gotti documentary came out,

that's when I really kind of opened my eyes to the fact that, oh, Sammy was a great earner. Like, you were a hustler and a good businessman all the way up from, you know, like your years in Bensonhurst, through the Gambos, and then finally his underbos. Like, you always made money. Listen, I owned, when I was arrested, I had five construction companies, concrete, drywall, flooring. All different kinds. You could hear John Gotti complaining about me. Sammy's taken over every fucking thing. The unions, construction business.

I was an earner all my life. I'm going to give you one stupid story about when I was real young, we opened up a fruit and vegetable store. We had this legitimate guy. He loved the horses. If you remember, Kelso, the race horses, Kelsoe. And we named it Kelso's Fruit and Vegetable Store. And we stood in the...

the back and played cards. We made him a partner. He ran it. He knew the business. He did everything. So, and we would play cards and plan if we were going to do a stickup or this and the back. Yeah.

And one day he opened the door and he said, Sammy, can I talk to you? I said, yeah, what is it? He said, look out the door. I looked out the door and there was an old, old woman. When a shopping, Megan, she was robbing vegetables, fruit. Vegetables. She was stealing. So I said, what about it? What is she doing? She's robbing from us.

Me, I'm a little bit of a clown, so I said, listen. All right. Keep her busy. I'll get a gun that's in the drawer. We'll shoot her in the head, and then we'll get rid of the body. He should say, man, I didn't mean that. Wait, wait, wait. He panicked. So I started laughing. I said, I didn't. Not allowed. I would do that. But what do you want me to do? She's robbing.

What do you do? I talked to her at least. Yeah. I said, all right. And I told the guys, I'll be right back. I went in and I talked to her. Signora, I said, you're robbing this stuff. Don't do that.

She says, I'm a broke. I said, me too. I'm a broke. But I just was choking on my words. And I just, I said, listen, here's what you do, senora don't rob for me take the thing put it in the bag bring it to the counter and give it to joe chelto make him check it out and then you tell him put it on sammy's tab so at least you're not robbing oh thank you so much and i did that yeah we were going to move and get another place we got

tired of staying in the back of this place. And he opened the door again. Sammy, you ruin my life. What are you talking about? I said, what the fuck are you talking about? I ruin your life. What's happening now? He said, look, I go out.

The place was packed with old people. So I says, good. You're doing good. The business is getting better. He said, but they were all coming to me, Tay, and put it on. He's there. So I was always a business guy.

Right. been playing around. It's a stupid little story, but... Were your legitimate businesses, especially towards the end, the real profitable construction, drywall, etc., the Teamsters, were you actually making

profit out of that, or were you running illegal money through it just as a means to longer? I was making profit on it. When I got pitched in 1990 with John Gotti and Frankie LaCasio, the last year I filed, this is a lot of years ago.

I filed, me and my wife, for $750,000 and earners. which like today that would be like filing that I made two three million dollars they say you were kicking up to John two million a year just from construction this is the word yes yes without a doubt it was probably more a little more than two million but John when I had testified used those facts against me in court but I had already said that I was you know kicking up X amount and I was making X amount And when the lawyer went through to try and make me look bad, it backfired on them because I had already admitted to all of that. Right. Okay. I don't want to get ahead there. Let's put a pin in that because this is the lynch pin to the whole saga and the whole drama. Spring weekends are all about family, sunshine, and evenings on the patio. Before everyone arrives, I stop by my local total wine and more to grab a great bottle to share. With such a such, a wide selection and the lowest prices, it's easy to find something

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Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Be 21. So going back, your parents are from the other side. They're from Sicily. And I think your mother's from Puglia, Italy. But she's just saying, and she was living in. Yeah.

Okay. And you're kind of from a middle class or what would then be considered like a middle class family. I don't think they were connected. Your uncle was the rum runner. I think he was like a bootlegger. Yes. Where does this pugnacity come from?

The bull. You know, where does this like this hustle, this, you know, being somebody who was kind of incorrigible, right? Like you were just a gang. pretty early. Do you think it's just in you, or did that violent, the violence of the time make you into what you became later? There's a couple of stages of that.

I was dyslexic. I'm still dyslexic. And I got left back in the fourth grade. I got left back in the seventh grade. I had a tough time spelling. Words look different to me. Letters look different to me. numbers look different to me.

And when they would say, they would ask one of the kids or the girls, how do you spell a word? They spelled it. Right. And then when they would come to me, they would say, okay, Mr. Grimano or Sammy, or they would call me Sammy.

Sammy, spell cat. And everybody would giggle, especially the guys. Right. And I got along with the girls pretty good as a kid. And it bothered the shit out of me. So three o'clock school was over, I would break your fucking ass.

Yeah. So I'm saying, yeah, yes, laugh at me again, especially in front of the girls. You want to make a joke on the side, you make a joke. Yeah. Laugh of me in front of the girls. So that toughness, I think, came out. It was violence then they stopped laughing. They stopped joking.

Right. So it had an influence on me. Uh-huh. I had trouble all through school. Right. I was thrown out of school. I was sent to 600 school and eventually thrown out of the entire school system and the eighth grade. I never even got to the ninth grade.

I was going to my hands. I fought in the street all the time. Yeah. I even fought in the ring a little bit. I never went pro, but I fought in the ring, Gleason's gym. and I liked it as a sport. I would go do a workout there. I did that for a long time up until I was in my 40s.

I would go spa in the gym with somebody and as a part of a workout. Not meaning to hurt somebody, let's say me and you spot. I could tell if I hurt you with a body shot or something. I don't follow up with another shot to hurt you. I'm not trying to hurt you and vice versa. I'd stop. Right. And you all right?

Yeah. And then we will continue. It's for a workout. It's not just to kill each other. But you're learning how to fight. You're starting to get used to taking a punch. Now, a lot of times, a lot of people don't notice. You get a good body shot.

Most people will cave if they're not used to it. You got the liver, the kidneys. Some guys will just drop right down to the canons. Or if you hit a guy, even sparring in the face and it's over and over and over again. I don't know. It toughens you up somehow. Your skin and your jaw.

You're learning to keep your jaw tight and closed. And it doesn't hurt as much. But if you never got hit, so you're like in karate. A lot of times they'll do karate, but they won't have the physical touch. It's too dangerous. They'll hurt each other.

So they'll come close to get points, but they won't really hit each other with a vicious blowout. Well, they'll hurt each other. And boxing is different. You're going to get hit a lot. You can see a lot of these professional fighters. You'll see them get a thunderous left hook.

And he still goes, even though he might be a little hurt. Now, you hit a guy who's not a fighter with that kind of punch. You'll knock his ass down or out or whatever. We're just not ready for that. So boxing and training, it gets you used to that, taking a blow, because you're going to get hit. Do you guys feel that? Warm sun and beach breezes.

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S-H-O-M-A-N-D-O.com. All right, back to the episode. So it doesn't sound like when you were coming up, you were a bully, you were just not afraid to back down. I was just the opposite. I never cared even until today whether I, all these years in prison, whether I win a fight or I lose a fight. If I lose a fight, I want the guy to say, but I love this kid. I hit him when everything, he just wouldn't stop, he wouldn't go down, that he has respect for me, even though he beat me. And he's not going to want to fight me again. So that's my theory in a fight. Yeah. You got to knock. Not

my ass out or I'm going to fight. And I'm going to fight as hard as I could. Now, if I beat you, I won't stomp on your face or kick you or keep smashing you. My fight, I want to win

the fight, but I'm not trying to really hurt you unless this is a personal thing that maybe I want to hurt you. And let me tell you about my first hit. First of all, before the hit, I was 19 years old. during the Vietnam War,

I got drafted into the military. Okay. I went to basic training, advanced infantry, the whole nine yards. The draft was two years. If you joined, it was three. I got drafted.

And you're taught to kill. Yeah. Because you're going to go and fight the enemy. It was all bullshit. They're communists. They're going to come in. They're going to rape your mother,

your sister. They're going to take over the car. It's all bullshit. But they gear you to kill because you're going to go. go if you go there they want you to kill so that's my first with killing and stuff like that even when i was young and i was in the rampers i didn't kill anybody we fought right sometimes we use a bat or a pipe like i say if i would fight i want to win if i knock you down if you're tap it out

if you want you sam you got it i give up i back away that's enough unless it's something really personal. I'll back up off you. I'm not looking to destroy your face or your, I want to beat you up. I want to win the fight. Yeah. Wasn't that serious back in the 50s? No. As it got later on. Oh yeah, yeah. So you think that the military is really what groomed you into? Well, I don't say groomy, but it. It desensitized you. It desensitized me that. If there's a reason to kill your military, you're going into Vietnam. You're going to kill. You better get used to that. Factor. And you're fighting for your country. Everybody's patting you on the back.

But when I got out, I went back to the rampers. It was us against the world. But all the rampers seemed to have hooked up with someone. So I hooked up. My friend Tommy Spiro, his uncle, his name was Shorty Spiro. He was a heavyweight in the Colombo family. We know him from the neighbor. It's a big name, tough guy, ex-plater, tough with his hands,

stuff for the gun. You didn't want to play with him. And he came to me and talked to me. And he said, Sam, you're pretty good with your hands. You're in fights all the time. Someday you're going to hit the wrong guy. And you're going to die. Because you're not hooked up.

You're not with anybody. You're not with a family. You're an independent. You're going to get killed because you're quick to throw hands right away. I know you got pinched. bunch of times and you stood up. Join us. And you'll have a family.

You'll have backing. It was music to my ear. We'll never betray you. We'll never lie to you. We'll never backstab. And something I wanted to hear. And I shook his head.

And I joined the Colombo family. I was an associate. Right. At this time, had you, you say you'd taken pinches over what? Everything. Assault on an officer, arm robbery.

Robbery. I even robbed the lumber yard. We were going to build a pigeon coop. We broke in. I stole lumber. And I got caught. Right. The other two guys got away. I got caught. Back then it was different. The cops kicked the shit out of me because I wouldn't give up who the two guys were. Right. And they knew that, the mob guys. Right.

And they idolized that, though. They liked that about you. Right. That you take, you can take a pinch, a low, level pinch, you could take a beating. And you could take a beating. Right. It's, you know, just the way it is. And you never opened your mouth, obviously. No, no, not until never did in my entire life.

Every time I got pinched, they came to me about talking because I was always hooked up. Right. Did you go to Vietnam? No. Oh, you can go to Vietnam, okay. No. So you hadn't killed yet when you came home from the military? No.

Okay. No. Gotcha. But I was very willing to kill, not in the street, but in Vietnam. if I would have went there. That was my job. I was a soldier. So now you're with the crew.

You're an associate. You're hanging around. You're starting to earn. And Joe Sparrow is your... Shorty. Shorty, sorry. Shorty Sparrow is going to be your sponsor if you're going to get straightened out later on.

Right. So what the early days of the street of earning, what do those years look like? The early Columbo years. Well, there was a lot of things. I got some bullshit contracts to go beat up people or do certain things. And it was part of the life. Right.

There was a guy, Joe Colucci. He was in our crew. His wife was a good-looking woman. And sexually very active, cheating on him, doing all kinds of bullshit. So she was having an affair with Shorty's nephew. And his name was Tommy. Spiro as well. They both names were Tommy Spiro.

He found out about it. Joe Colchie, he was a tough guy. And he went to a guy, Frankie, who was in the crew, and he said, Frankie, I need you help. And Frankie said, for what? To do what? He says, I'm going to kill Shorty Spiro

and I'm going to kill Sammy. We all knew about her. We all knew about it, the secret little affair with Tommy Spirole. So Frankie says, is this about your wife? Yeah. Why Sammy? He's not fucking your wife.

Why him? And why Shorty? He said, if I kill Tommy, who I really want to kill, Shorter, you'll put it together. Hell no. And come on, bro. Who's he going to send? He'll send Sammy.

If I killed the two of them now, there'll be so much confusion. Nobody will know what the fuck is going on. and then six months from now, four months from now, I'll kill Tommy. And nobody will be the wiser. Frankie got the story and says, okay, I'll help you. But he didn't. He went to Shorty Spiro and told Shorty Spiro about this plot.

Shorty Spiro went to Carmine Persico, who was the captain. Carmine Persico went to Joe Colombo, who was the boss of the family. told him this whole story. Joe Colombo says, take him out. And Carmine Persico got the order from the boss or the okay. And he grabbed Shorty and he says, take him out at Joe Colos.

Take him out. Can I stop you? Ask you right there. Does, if you're a made guy and somebody is screwing your wife, aren't you allowed to go hit that guy? just by the rules of the mob? No, you're talking about two made guys.

Those had, they have different rules. Joe Colucci wasn't a made guy. I wasn't a made guy. The books were closed for 20-some-odd years. Shorty wasn't a made guy yet. I see. Tremendous reputation, but he wasn't made. I see.

So this was outside the realm of that, but they still are attached. Carmine Persico was more than a maid guy. He was a captain. Joe Columbo was a boss. They were made before the books were shut. Right. They shot in 57, I think. 55 or 57.

And they were closed for about 20 years? 20 years. By the way, why was that? I never understood that. Because some guys made their sons or people for money. Some guys would pay to be sponsored under the table. Make me a made guy. Making me afraid a friend of ours.

I'll give you $50,000, $100,000. They made a guy. He didn't belong in the life. I see. These things popped up. from time to time and they closed the books. They were going to redo the whole thing. I see.

Okay. So it wasn't like not enough money was coming in to feed people. No. No, it had that they were making mistakes and making guys who did not belong. Okay. So you guys are all associates and but you, this plot to kill you and, and Shorty obviously gets foiled. What happens next? Oh, Shorty comes to me and says Sammy.

tells me the whole story about Joe Colosier and says, you got the hit. Take him out. He says, who do you want to come with you to help you? I wasn't sure if I was being bullshit. I didn't understand why he would want to kill me.

And I didn't want to be bullshitted. So I said, first of all, I want to take your fucking nephew, Tommy. this whole thing started because of him. Right. And his dick. Right. Yeah.

So he's got to be there. Mm. And I want Frankie there. Because I wanted to be able to get him alone and ask him, is there true to the story? Or it might be in bullshit. Right. Might be told to steam me up to get this guy out of the way. I wanted to find out.

Right. So anyway, Frankie told me. no Sammy and I told him why wouldn't you come to me if you heard that from him he said Sammy I saved your fucking life bro I went and did what I'm supposed to do I went to the boss sure he's our boss and he was right he did save my life he could have said yes I would have never knew it hit me yeah so so your first hit was actually defense it was kill or be killed no no no it was an order from the mob. Okay.

That's what it was. Right. And so we went out from time to time. And one night, we went to an after-hour club. Then we went to a place on 86th Street, a 24-hour place where you can eat. He went downstairs to go to the men's room. and I had Frankie and Tommy and me. I said, when we go back to the car, Tommy, you drive.

I'll sit behind Tommy. Frankie, you sit behind Joey, let him sit in the front and the passenger seat. He came back up. That's exactly what we did. Everybody was in that position. The windows were closed. The radio was on. We took off and we were going down the side street.

I had a 38 pistol in my pants. Halfway down the block, I took out the gun, and I shot the first shot in the back of his head. He didn't move. Didn't wiggle. Nothing seemed to happen. I was in shock. I didn't know what the fuck happened.

This is blanks. I was panicking. What happened? I pulled the trigger again, shot him again. This time he went sliding down slightly and sliding towards. The window. He was in a passenger, you see.

Tommy, for some reason, had the radio blasting loud. Like, that's supposed to cover something. The noise in the car was deafening. I said, open the fucking windows, one. Shut that fucking radio. Lower the thing. It was a Beatles song. Let it be.

Was the song. And, uh, and I said, get on the highway, go towards Queens. Don't go through any lights. Don't do anything. It looks like he's sleeping, resting, and we're driving in the car. Yeah. Don't speed.

We went down a little ways towards Queens, and we went in an area that was upper middle class, beautiful homes, lawns, outside of our neighborhood. Yeah. It was dark I said pull over over here He pulled over In front of a nice house Lawn

Um I told Tom He opened the door and throw him out He kind of touched him And he reacted in a weird way Like he was super fucking nervous And he says Sam he's dead

We didn't have electric windows It was a roll down window I told Frankie, open up your fucking window. I climbed over Frankie and jumped out the side. I went to the door, opened up the door. I put one hand under his neck and the other one under his legs. He was a pretty big guy. It was the first time I had an experience with dead weight.

He felt like he was a thousand pounds. But I struggled and I got him up, pulled him out, and threw him onto the grass. So you had no other plan to dispose of them before the hit went down? No. Wow. And I got back in, as I got back into the car, my hand hit the seat. He must have been, it was bleeding. It was loaded with blood.

My hand slid across the seat. And I jumped into the seat and just sat on it. I opened up the window. I said, wait. I opened up the window. And out of the window, I put the gun. He was only a couple of feet of way. And I shot him three more times.

I closed the window. I grabbed the rag. I says, go back. Don't speed. Don't go through lights. Shut this fucking radio. And we'll stop by the ocean. On the way home, we pass the ocean.

I'm going to throw the gun in the river, in the ocean. And then we'll go back and I'll clean up the car. I want everybody to take off. all their clothes, everything you're wearing, shoes, socks, underwear, every fucking thing and let's get rid of it. Everything. And we did that. I was always under the impression that when you do a murder, I saw a movie, a guy is sweating

and he's scared and he's nervous and everything is happening. And then he does this murder and he's shaking and sweating like a pig. And I thought that was going to happen to me. When we got back and we cleaned up and we got rid of the gun, we went up in an apartment, three, four, five of us lived together. And I took off my clothes. I told them what to do with the clothes. And I went in the shower.

I had the water coming down on my head, down my back, and waiting for this to happen. It didn't happen. I wasn't nervous. I didn't feel any of those things I thought. that anybody and everybody feels. Since that day. Wait one minute.

Excuse me. I got back in bed and I slept like a baby. I got up the next morning to people, girls, young girls, called talk and oh my God, Joe Colucci, they found his body in Queens, this and that. I remember asking one of the young girls,

did they know who did it? She said, no, it says in the paper, but they're investigating it. And they were all left and went to the corner to hang out. And there's a big hustle of kids and stuff. I got dried. I got dressed. I went out.

It felt like I had an out-of-body experience that I was above the crowd looking down, looking at them and listening to them. Wow. And I still didn't feel anything. And then Tommy Spiro broke that little trance that I was in and said, sure he's on his way down. He wants to pick a. Pick us up. Shorty got there and said,

get in the car. He had the newspaper. Tommy explained everything how it happened, leaving out the part that he was scared and nervous. Right. Yeah. He said, I want my nephew to explain to Carmine Persico.

You don't say a fucking word, Sammy. I got in the car. We went down to see Carmine Persico. Tommy Sparrow did explain it. To the tea, leaving out the part about him being scared and nervous. I didn't care. Carmine Persico grabbed me, kissed me on the cheek, hug me, said, you did a great job. Did you get rid of the car?

I said, I cleaned it up. Get rid of it. There's always something left. I never did a hip before, so I just thought cleaning it up. It was a good thing. I was broke. I didn't have another car. Right.

What I did, when I left, I took the car that night, burnt it to a crisp and reported it so. So now you could ask me, whatever you want to ask me. Wow. You were 19 years old? No. I went into the military when I was 19. I got out at 21.

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It is helping my vitality as I become older. All right, you guys, back to Sammy the Bull. So did that bump you up? Obviously, gave you some new clout with the maid guys. What did that do for your ranking? Did that open up opportunities? Well, I didn't look at it that way, but what did happen, nobody knew that I did that murder, who was on the murder, except for the guys who were on the murder. But what it did is that when we would go see Carmine Persico or Carroll Street, downtown Brooklyn, we would come back in Benson Heights, Brooklyn.

Joe Colombo would be hanging out. It was the boss of the family. Shorty would have a message from Carmine. And so we would pull the car over. We would pull the car over. I would stay by the car and he would walk over to Joe Colombo, shake his hand and talk to him. Joe Colombo would have two three guys with him. And it wasn't my place to walk over to a boss. Right.

So I just stood by the car. Right. But after that hit, Joe Colombo, right after that hit, yelled out to me. Sammy. come over here. And I walked over. And he says, you don't like me?

I said, Joe, I take the world deal. He said, good. Well, from now on, don't stay by the car. You come over here, you shake my hand, you say hello. Yeah. You can listen. Shake everybody else's hand.

But never say one fucking word in these conversations. But you don't know. have to stand over there no more. You can come here and stand over here with Shorty and listen and when Shorty's letter to leave, you can leave with him. Wow. So people on 86th Street in Brooklyn would pass by. It was a big avenue. It was a real estate place where he hung up. Everybody knew who he was. Right. Seeing me, they're shaking hands with him. Hello, goodbye. Yeah. Or standing there. And my name went through the roof for those reasons, not because I killed. something. That's a big deal when the boss for a young knockaround guy calls you over and says you can stand.

That's like Carson waving the comedian over to the couch after his set. Right. Whatever it is. Yes. You said you didn't feel anything after that hit. Did you ever feel anything years later? Did you ever feel anything about any of the hits that you were involved in? I had felt things about a lot of the things I had feelings for, I did a lot of hits. I was on a lot of hits. The first hit, no, I didn't have no remorse, and I felt

nothing. Until today, I don't. I know one thing. There's rules in the mafia. You live by those rules or you die by those rules. If you break those rules, you die. If you break rules,

you bang somebody's or a boss or a captain's wife. And you know that you could die. I can give a fuck less if you get killed. I'll even participate in it. Do you still like the Beatles? I love the Beatles.

The Beatles were great in that time. And so, but no, I don't. There's other hits that have done. But I understand why they're done. Now, we talked about my military. This is no different. I'm a soldier, not in the U.S. Army. I'm a soldier and goes on.

Austria. And my job is to protect Gosynostra at all course. When you become a maid guy, and that took a while I was transferred over to the Gambino family became a maid guy, you take an oath where they tell you, this is above God, country, and your family. This is number one in your life. And you learn to live. And you learn to live. live by that code. If your son and your daughter is dying in the hospital, and you're in the hospital with them, and the boss sends for you,

walk the fuck out of that hospital and go see the boss. Now, it's not that you're not supposed to love God. I always cared about God. I still do. I think you'd have to almost kill me to walk. If my son was dying in the hospital and the boss wife would have seen me, I think I would take a bullet,

rather than walking away. Right. But they were trying to show you how this is the first thing in your life. Right. Nobody's going to call you. You're a maid guy. I'm a boss. And they tell me he's in a hospital with his kid.

This kid is dying. I would never say, tell him to get here. Yeah. That's not going to happen. Right. But it's, you have to understand that it's that important. Mm-hmm. If your son becomes an informant,

and I tell you to kill your son, you have to kill him. If you don't, we'll kill your son anyway, and we'll kill you. Were you prepared to die for the life in defending Cozanoza, either with a bullet or a life in prison?

Absolutely. You know, people say, well, you're afraid. I'm afraid of a lot of things. I'm afraid of sharks. That pitcher of yours scared the shit out of me. Yeah.

I go, I like a cunt. my ankles and I'm like, well, wait, wait, what it's the same, same. It fucking bothers me. But I didn't have any fear because I, here's how I didn't have fear. Not because I'm a tough guy. Not that I don't understand fear. I always thought when I,

especially when I took the oath in the life, I one day I'm going to get killed or I'm going to go to prison for the rest of my life. That eliminated fear for me. Right. Because I expected it. Right. it was just part of my life.

Don't smoke because you'll get cancer. Who gives the fuck? I'll die of cancer. I'll die something else. You just keep smoking. Right. Right. You're not afraid of it.

So it was an acceptance. It's an acceptance. Not, you know, I don't want to sound like I don't have any fear. And I miss a tough guy. That's bullshit. I have fears just like everybody else. I wouldn't leave my son and my daughter. And I do believe in God.

and so how did you your belief in god and i'm sure you were raised catholic or had some catholic influence like i did you know killing is a mortal a mortal sin they call it yeah you know if you kill you're supposed to go to hell it's the worst thing you could do um how did you square what you did you know pushing a button uh so many times on people and you know i'm not pushing the button i may be to I may be the gun. I may be what kills you. I don't push the button. A boss pushes the button.

And correct me if I'm wrong, you killed people without permission from the boss. Did you not? No, I did one hit like that. But in my, I did it to protect him. That's a whole not a story. And we can talk about it later for real.

Okay. A quick thing. But. So you feel like you, God will forgive you because you were killing people on behalf of the boss as an order? I believe in God. I don't believe there's a fucking hell. If you believe in God and you believe he can forgive you for what you do

and he's all mighty, he's all this, he's all that. And then you want to, if you don't listen to his rules, he's going to make you burn in hell for the rest of eternity. I mean, don't that sound like bullshit to you? It does to me. And a lot of things, you know, the Catholic religion, I'm not a, I'm not a religion guy. I believe in God, but I don't believe in religions

because I believe that story about hell is bullshit. And I know a lot of priests who touch little dicks. So you want to, like, there was a time when a priest says, I want you to come in and I want you to tell me your sins. I said, fine. Tell me yours. What did you do? Do you have any altar boys working for you?

Come on, let's talk. But they don't want to talk. So I don't believe in certain religions. I don't believe in certain things that a man says of what God would do. To me, the hell, this is what I believe, because I hear you about Catholicism about hell. I'm worried about the final moment before I pass. and feeling the overwhelming guilt about what maybe I did in my life that I knew was wrong

or that things that I should have done and just feeling like it was just this deep feeling of remorse and regret while I'm still alive, but passing into the next world. Like to me, that's hell. Like being on the death bed. So you're worried about that feeling. Yeah, yeah. Just think of going in your mountain. Pull the fuck.

You won't fucking regret nothing. How about that? You won't have to worry about it. If you're that concerned. I'm too chicken ship for that. Well, then you won't have to worry about what you feel and what you don't feel. Listen, God makes lions. He makes lambs.

I'm not going to point to you or whoever. You might be a lamb. I'm a fucking lion. He made us. So I would have questions. for God. Why did you make lions? Why did you do certain things?

Do I believe he put his son on a cross to be tortured to save some fucking scummy people? He don't even know. I don't buy none of that. So if you believe in God and that makes you a better man, that's a good thing. It's good enough for me.

Did it make, that's great, though. So to that point, do you feel that God made you a better man? Did you ever try to act in a way that was in the image of God or what God would want, even after, maybe after the life? Well, there's a lot of times I did things and put my own life at risk because of certain things. I never killed a woman. I never killed a child. I never killed an innocent person outside of Kosanostra.

Right. I may have a fight. I may want to break your face open a little bit. but, or whatever. Right. But I don't want to kill you. Okay. So you wouldn't consider yourself like a sociopath or a serial killer?

No, without a doubt, no. All right. I couldn't even ask you that question and you couldn't answer it if you were. You could answer it. I mean, you could ask the question. I don't mind it. I mean, because there's people who say that, you know, there was a psychologist in prison when I was in prison.

It asked a lot of these questions. Right. And I had said, anybody could kill. and she said no I can't kill all right are you married you have kids she says I ask the questions

then the the interview's over I'm asking you a question there's nothing wrong with the questions I'm asking you she said yes I am married I have two little kids a boy and a girl good supposing somebody grabs your little girl rapes her

and brutally rapes her and beats her and kills her. And he gets caught. Goes to trial. He's convicted. They give him electric chair, gas chamber, whatever. Nobody's there when they're going to press that button. If nobody comes in and presses that button, they'll commute his sentence from the debt penalty to life in prison, 20 years, or whatever.

Would you push the button? Or you bet you're your sweet ass I would. So then you could kill. Right. Under the right conditions. Right. Okay.

So everybody, I think, there's guys who go in the military. You think all these soldiers are serial killers? They're fighting for their country. They're bullshitted by the government to fight for whatever bullshit reason they give. Most of the times it's not even true. That's right.

I was supposed to kill Vietnamese people. Either they're good crooks because I've never seen a fuck of Vietnamese person in prison, 22 years of my life. Right. I've never met a bad Vietnamese person. They're really nice. They're good. They do your nails, your toenails, your fingernails. They're polite.

Jerk you off. Well, I never had that. I just kidding. I never had that. But they're good people. Yeah. So what is it? It means to me that was all bullshit.

They weren't coming here. taking over the country. But they train you to do that. Is there cops, serial killers? Maybe one, maybe two. Does most of them want to come out, wake up every fucking morning and want to kill somebody? I doubt it.

You know, you talked about soldiers being brainwashed and lied to about going to war. We know Vietnam was bullshit. It was a false pretences to even go there. Iraq, both Iraq wars. We now know built off a lies, right, about weapons, mass destruction, all that shit.

We're not sure about what's going on today. We're sending funds to Israel. Yep. And we're sending funds to Hamas. Yeah. These two are fighting. Yeah. If you pick one side, I understand what you're thinking is.

But if you're feeding both sides, you don't want this fight to stop, do you? No, and they don't. So what the fuck? It's not just Vietnam back then. It's right now happening right under our fucking nose. 100%. 100%. so a soldier that kills we can forget my point is we can forgive a soldier who kills for a military that's given orders by people in power that are lying do you feel like you were lied to a little bit you know you were brought in by this organization cosonosstra when you were just a kid you would come back from the military and you were recruited and they made you a promise we'll never lie to you will never turn on you will never will never cheat you will never betray you uh Looking back, do you think you killed for the right reasons for an organization that was not morally or okay, morally just, but principally a just organization?

Or do you feel like you were betrayed a little bit by the? I was betrayed when I had a case with John Gotti. I loved the guy. He betrayed me. And I flipped him, walked the fuck away and joined the government. But before that, there's a lot of people I knew in the mafia. They're so, most of them are dead. I love them.

I love their families. They weren't bad people. They killed. I don't consider myself a bad person because I killed. I protected as a soldier. When I was in the military and I was in the military, if I would have went to Vietnam, I would have killed people. Sure, as God made apples.

Yeah. And I wouldn't be happy about it right now. Right. But that's part of, that's what I was supposed to do. Right. So, or a cop. Some guy comes out with a knife and he's running at him or pulls a gun. What do you want this cop to do?

Not shoot him. He's going to shoot him. Right. I'm not mad at him. Maybe somebody else is mad at him, but I'm not. Gotcha. So I look at the mafia as you take this out. You're part of this secret society and a brotherhood.

And you're there to protect one another. It's so powerful. is that assuming you're a guy and your mate and you're married, your wife, I look at her as my sister-in-law. She don't know it. I look at your kids as my nieces and my nephews. They don't know it. I know it.

That's part of the life. We talk about all the bad parts of the life. There's a lot of things that's good things they do. it's my responsibility. I see your daughter. Some jerk offers. She's drinking. She's drinking a little too much.

She's a little drunk, maybe. Some jerk offers playing with her. I come right over. I tell the bartender, cut her off. I tell the kid, take the fuck out of here. Go. Go home.

Take a walk. You, sweetheart. Get in a car or call a cab. And you go home. Who are you? I'm your father's friend. You don't know me, but go home. No.

Joe Blow, come here. Put her in the fucking car. I don't care what she says and let her go home. I'm not worried about you being mad. Because you're my brother. You're going to say, what did Sammy do? Yeah. And you were drinking?

You were drunk. Oh, that's what Sammy did. That's my man. If I don't do that, then I'm not your brother and I'm not your fucking man. So there's things in the mouth here that are beautiful. They're good. They're meant to be good.

and I met their families. I'm not one of these guys who goes around. I love the mafia. I loved the time I was there. I love what I became. I love when I left for why I left. Okay, so let's get to that. Brilliant.

I love to hear that. So you never got made with the Colombo's. Something happened and they like transferred you to the Gambino's, which I didn't even know it was possible. but can you explain that? Yeah, I'm going to explain it a little quick. Yeah. I was with the Colombo's.

I was in a bar in Shipsat Bay in New York. Mm-hmm. And a friend of ours in the Shorty's crew, a guy named Ralphie Runga, who was given permission to go on a stick up with another crew. It was a setup. The cops knew. they made the move.

It was a jewelry score. On the way down, there was cops, detectives, and with guns. Instead of him surrendering, he went for a gun. He shot it out with them. He got hit on multiple amount of times. He actually got to the car, backed in and fell into the car. And they took off. On the way back to Brooklyn, he died.

They put him in a parking lot. They called the police as a guy shot. There's nothing else they could do. But he was dead. Back to that bomb in Shipset Bay. Two weeks after he was that, I was there a maid guy in the Gambino family, old man, Johnny Rizzo, Louis Bolino,

Wombada, Aliboy, Michael and Mouza, a whole bunch of guys were with different people. And the old man, Rizzo said, Sammy, look at it, who's that blonde? She's checking you out. Now, we always joke on with each other. I says, come on, stop.

Well, she's, we're the fucking guy. Come on. Let's stop playing. We went back and forth a little bit. And Louis Melito says, Sammy, I don't think the old man is playing with you, bro. She's watching every fucking move you make. You don't know her?

I look. She's got blonde hair, teased up, short, many dress, high heels, lipstick, the whole nine yards. She looked hot, but I didn't know her. I said, no, I don't know. The guy she was with got up and went to the men's room. And she started walking over to us. And the old man says, see, go see what she wants. So I walked over to her.

When I got, it was a dark dingy shithole. When I got close to her, it was Ralphie Runger's wife. And I said, what the fuck are you doing here, bro? And who's that? She said, Sammy, life goes on. Yeah, life goes on. I get it.

But fucking guys, you're not even cold yet. It's two weeks, three weeks. Yeah. Can't you wait a while, bro? Yeah. She said, Sammy, I could get rid of him. I know how you used to live. look at me.

Me? How I looked at you? We could hook up. Get the fuck out of you, fucking low-life cunt. And I chased her. She got so scared because I got that mad.

She went back and talked to Ralph. My status with the Colombo family was way up here. He wanted his fucking son, Tommy, and his other son to get made when the books are open.

So he talked with her. She went to him. She was scared to death. And he used it as a thing to see if he could take me that from here, bring me back down. And he went and told them that I tried to pick up Ralphie Runger's wife. And when she refused, I slapped her around. When you were actually doing the right thing. And I was going to get hurt.

They were setting up for fucking six or seven guys who were going to give me the beaten in my life. Johnny Rizzo Sr. found out about it, and he came down with Louis Melito to talk to me. And he said, Sam, you're going to go to a meeting. They're going to break every fucking moan in your body, bro. And he tells me the story. He says, let me come with you. I said, John, they're not going to want to talk to you without another family.

They're not going to want to talk to you. And he said, but I was there. We were there. let me come with you. He was a May guy. I went with him and Louis Milito to where my meeting was. There was about 10, 12, 14 guys.

I got out of the car. And he walked with me. Shorty knew who he was, knew his position. Shorty shook his hand. He says, John, what are you doing here, bro? This is none of your business. He said, I know what the story is

and I know what happened. I was in the fucking joint. And let me tell you what happened, what I said the first time. And Louis Melito was there. You want me to call him over? His Gumbada alley boys with the Genovese people, he was there. Mikey Mutsuil is with the Colombo people. Want me to get him too?

There was five, six guys there. The story who's heard is not true. Shorty looked at me and said, I knew this fucking kid wouldn't do this. he hugged me, give me a kiss he says, go home. Don't come around until I tell you. Johnny Rizzo told a guy

and Tato, his captain, who went to Carlo Gambino. So the head of the Gambino family spoke to the head of the Colombo family. They gave me right for what I did. Because when I had gotten home and heard about this,

my wife was crying, she told me. I got a gun and I went to Ralphie's house. I backed on the door. I said, Anne, where's Ralph? I needed to talk to him. As soon as Ralph was going to come to the door, I was going to shoot him. She saw the gun.

Ralph wasn't there. That's what caused this whole thing. So now two heads of two families are talking. And they said, you were right to want to kill him. We give you right. What he did was fucking horrible. Allie boy, Persico,

senior, Carmine Perseco's brother, Carmine Perciko's in jail. And he said, you were right. But you went wrong when you went to his house to kill him in front of his family, his wife, whoever, that we don't do. We're not going to kill Ralph because he's Shorty's brother. So we came, people in the Gambino,

people are talking to you. We're going to release you. with no conditions to them because they talked for you. You've got to give us one promise that you're not going to kill Ralph. I promised them. And left. That was my beginning of being in the Gambino family. And that's the reason why they knew one of us would kill each other in that family.

Wow. So they couldn't kill Ralph because he's shortage brother. They didn't want him. They didn't want to kill me because they felt that was right. Yeah. And the only way to solve this was put one guy in one camp and one guy and another cat. Right. Then you can't anymore.

That's a big deal. That's a tremendous deal. It very rarely happens. Right. So that meant you were valuable, too. Yes. Because if you're not valuable, if you're just a problem and you're not earning or if you're not a good, you know, enforcer, they're just going to make you go. Let's go one more with the Colombo family.

Sure. I did my first hit in the Colombo family. And there was a war after that between the prof-uh, well, Profacci was alive, then he died, between the gallows and Carmine Persico and Joe Colombo. There was a war. And I hit the mattresses with them. When I was young, I didn't even know what that meant. Shorty had called me, and he said, Sammy, you got a girlfriend? No, not really.

If you do, break up. You got a job, quit. You're not going home no more. I said, what do you mean? He says, we're going to hit the mattresses. I said, I got guys, a couple guys who want me money. That's done. Nobody owes you nothing no more.

You're going to live with us. We're a pack of wolves. We're going to kill the gallows. They're a pack of wolves, and they're going to try and kill us. We watch, they watch. You want to go around and fuck some brood? go ahead go there every tuesday enjoy yourself once they know and once they see it one of those tuesdays when you come out they'll blow your fucking brains out if your horny go jerk off

or that's going to happen and just for historical context the colombo war was one of the most violent bloody well there was two of them okay there was two or three of them so i don't know which one yeah it was historically there was extremely bloody and so and you were were part of one of those. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So what does going to the mattresses look like? And what year is this? Well, just like I said, we're living together 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And all our thing is we're sitting to wait if we could find out who's going where and what's happening. We're going to go kill them. And they're doing the same thing. Yeah. And, you know, a couple of issues came up.

They found out where Crazy Joe Gallo was going into a fancy hotel in New York. He used to fuck around with actresses, people from Hollywood. And I had a beetle type of haircut, long hair back in those days. And I was young.

And they didn't know me. I didn't know them. I knew what Joe Gallo. I saw the pictures. I know Crazy Joe Gallo would it look like. They said, Sam, he's going to go into this building. We have it going off. There's a door guy. He'll pull up. He'll get out. The door guy's going to come over to him, shake his hand right away and open the door for him.

Kill him in the street. Wear a psychedelic t-shirt. Mess your fucking hair up. Stand there at a car like your fucking stone out of your face. Dribble out of your mouth. If the guy says something to you, move. He'll yell. He's just.

Do what you got to do. I was nervous, but I was ready to do it. Did you have, this is in Manhattan, did you have an escape plan to get out off the island? If you hold up one minute, I'll give you the escape. I'm sorry. There is no escape plan. I'm going to do it.

So what happens is I stayed there a while. The dog I did yell at me. I disregarded him. And a car pulled up. And it was him. He got out. with a beautiful, beautiful woman with a mink thing, a big white mink around her neck.

And I said, and the dog guy started coming out to shoot. So they had told me if the dog guy interfered, shoot him. Try not to kill the woman. Try not to. And kill him. When he got out, I was fucking nervous. I saw my God. If this fucking woman tries to get in the way, what the fuck do I do?

the door guy I'm gonna I'll shoot him um as I was thinking two three more cars pulled up more of their crew the gallows got out of cars they had long coats

coats open I saw shotguns rifles and they were moving around looking and he's starting to walk the only thing that slowed him down was the guy coming over and shaking his hand. Right.

I could still hit him. But I know now, as soon as I shoot him, these guys are going to open up on me, I'm dead. Yeah. I'm not going to do it. I don't have a way out. Right. But I think I'm in big trouble.

He goes into the fucking thing. The guy opens the door. I didn't do it. And while I'm walking up to the corner with it, the other, Our guy's well. I said, oh my God, I'm in so much fucking trouble. When I walked there, they grabbed me.

Gave me kisses and everything. Sammy, you're a tough motherfucker. But now we know you have fucking brains. If you were to shot him, they would have killed you. And we would have been laughing because we would have thought you were a complete asshole. You're out of your mind. But we know you could think now. too. Yeah. Yeah. So...

You almost made history early. I mean, clearly you made mob history, but if you had killed crazy Joe Gallo, that would have been like, would have made history multiple times. No, absolutely. That's wild. It would have been a big hit, but I mean, I was on that. So this is how to process what had happened. So they didn't just beat me or kill me that easy. Once they found that it was bullshit, they liked me for all these reasons. I hit the mattresses with them for months and months and months at a time. Did you end up killing somebody during that war? No.

Okay. You could get to anyone. Just Colucci and I left. How did it resolve itself that time? What? The war. It resolved itself. They killed Tracy Joe Gallo, but there's, listen, there's many, many stories that I can't get into them.

There's a hundred stories. Of course. But eventually, Crazy Joe Gallo was killed. Okay. There's other things I do know. Yeah. So, but it's too long of a story. A lot of these stories become very long.

Okay, so what year is it? I think you got a lot. What year is it when you go with the Gambinos? Now, I'm looking at my underboss over there. What year was that I go with the Gambinos in 1970, one or two? It was right when I was going to get married. I got married. I was still with the Colombo family.

All right. A couple guys came. I got married. 1976. 76? No, I was a maid member. What he's saying is when did I leave the Colombo's and come over? That was in 71 or two or three or something like that. I gotcha. And so you didn't get straightened out until 76.

Yes. I see. Now, had you known John Gotti before? when you were with the Colombo's? No. Okay. Did you meet him soon after when you joined the Gambinos? No. He was in jail.

I didn't grow up with you. Everybody thinks I grew up with him and he was my asshole buddy. That never happened. Right. The first thing I heard about John Gotti, he was in prison. Um, McBrattney murder. Him and Angelo or Jerry O'O were in prison. Right.

He was in prison. and in prison some guy I knew had trouble with the black guys something about buying or selling drugs and money right

so the black guys were going to hurt him he was wrong and nobody really took his back somebody went over to John Gotti and said listen this kid here he did the wrong thing

so nobody's taking his back but he's a friend of Sammy's, I think. Sammy the Bull. Wow. Oh, wow. He went to the head of the black guys in the prison and said the guy he's with is a friend of mine. Right. This guy did the wrong thing.

I give you my word. I will give you the money back. I'll get my crack in his fucking face. But don't do what you have planned. Right. Wow. And they did that. Wow.

They gave him a piss. So when he came home, did you guys start working together pretty quick? No. I got made in 1976. I became an acting captain. One year later, Tato made me an acting captain. John came out of prison in 77. That's the first time I met him.

He wasn't made yet. He came into Frankie DeChico. was a very powerful captain. Right. Family, a very good friend of mine. I always went to his clubs to promote him and his stuff. And he came into the Frankie's club and I was there. Frankie's father, Boosie was a main guy, and Boosie told me,

you ever hear of this kid, John Gotti? He was walking in with three or four guys with his little entourage. He always had that. And I said, yeah. I said, matter of fact, he did me a fucking favor with him. somebody in prison from what I heard. He says he's going to become one of us, Sammy one day. By that time, he just got over to us and he knew Boosie.

And he said, this is Sammy the Bull. Hey, Sammy, I shook his hand. I bought him a drink. I thanked him for what he did in prison. And that's where we met. That's where our friendship started. and it grew. Right.

But I never knew him not one day before that. Right. So the 80s are, now we're coming into the 80s. He's growing in power. You're still captain at this time? I'm an acting captain.

You're an acting captain. This is when the Bergen hunting fish club is really popping off. So much activities going on. Paul Castellano is the boss. Is there any, What year did you start to feel a rift between yourself and Gotti and the boss, Paul? When did you feel that tension starting to happen that eventually led up to his murder?

So I was very close to Paul Castellano. I thought he was the best thing to slice bread. When I met him, I liked him. There's a lot of things I did with him. But he did a lot of things that are wrong. He made a lot of fucking blundice. A lot of mistakes. Like what, for example?

I'll give you one. There's a whole, he's got a big table in his house. He's at the head of the table. There's a whole bunch of guys. John Gotti, me, Roy DeMayo, all heavyweight names. John Gotti was there too. Franklin Tchiko, a ton of us.

Yeah. And in this meeting, he's talking about stuff and hypothetical stuff. And he said, do you know who the real tough guys are? And these are all tough guys. These are all killers. Yeah. He said, the police, they go on to a house, a domestic violence. They don't know what they're walking into and they go in.

Now, that may be true in a way. But you don't have guys who you're giving orders to go kill. and tell them the true tough guy is a cop they're our enemy yeah they're a tough guy

and what are all of these guys nothing right so it was a horrible mistake why would he say that that's so weird I don't know because he's hypothetically

a genius this guy and he talked and he you know and there there is some true to it right but on the way out, there was a whole pack of guys, and he was in the back, real close to us, walking us out.

And I know he heard it. We all knew he heard it. Roy DeMayo became a serial killer. Real tough, tough, very dangerous guy. He said pretty loud, loud enough for all of us to hear it. I'm sure Paul did too. Next time he wants to kill somebody, should go call a cop. Now, it's funny now.

Yeah. The tension of the guys in the room and the boss hearing it wasn't so funny. But in a way, when we left, there's a lot of those guys said, who didn't like Roy too much, but they said Roy was right, bro. Wow. Fuck this guy. Wow. They're the tough guys.

You want to tell us? That's the same thing as going into a police academy and saying, all you guys are fucking snakes and pieces of shit. Yeah. The real fucking man are gangsters. Right. Would they want to hear that? No, of course.

It's just so wrong. Right. And he's made a few things that went wrong. Right. Now, and this may not sound like a big deal to a lot of people, but he was fucking his maid. Yeah. And, uh... I'm sorry, he was fucking his maid?

Yeah, poor Castello. Right, right. And there's a brotherhood I told you how we're supposed to feel. Yeah. Yep. Now, when I would go to Polk's house with my son, he was a little guy, and she would like grandma take care of. Come here, Gerard, and give him cookies and milk and this and that.

She's like my grandmother. Right. Or my mother, the more. He's the boss of the family. Right. Now, we all cheat. We all fuck around. Right.

But for real, bro. Yeah. in your own house with this fucking ugly bitch. Right. And it's weird. It's weird. And she's now telling the wife on occasion, people heard it. Make a bit of coffee.

Making yourself unbusy. And you allow her? She's your mate. Now, I'll give you another quick story just to give you an example of this. Well, let me stay with her for a second. Yeah. Because one day I'm in there with Frankie de Chico and the maid is there and all this

that shit. And he's talking to me and Frankie and Cheek and he says her name was Gloria to me. Gloria

the FBI grabbed them wanted to talk though. She don't really know nothing but you know. And she said

ooh, that FBI agent he's so good looking with that accent. Yeah. Me, I said

Paul do you want me to take care of this? The fucking veins his neck is stuck out and Frankie de Chico give me a kick under the table really hard. Not a joke, real hard.

I knew I said or did something fucked up. And he said, what the fuck did you just say? I said, Paul, I think I'm losing my mind. I don't know what to say. Yeah. But I said, if you need me

to take care of, I will. I thought I was saying and doing the right thing. Right. So we left and we knew where the cameras were where he could see outside. Right. So when I get to a spot, it was a blind spot, me and Frankie.

And he grabs me, jumps his fucking knees, he was bigger to me, he grabs me, hugs me. You crazy fuck. He loves this fucking broad. He'll kill me and you for her. Wow. He had a big, big garage fit six, eight cars. Yeah.

He said, see that last Cadillac on the end? That's glorious. Wow. Now I'm going to go into the last story. Okay. I'll give you another example of why that's important to brought the main, the whole thing. Tato, my captain, was in a restaurant in our neighborhood that he always goes to. What his gumada is, gumata is his girlfriend.

Right. And he's with her. The door opens up and Carlo Garmino walks in with four or five guys. They go sit at a table. Back then, you didn't say, hey, how you doing? Or give him about the wine. Do nothing. All you did was look at him, stare at eye to eye and nod your head.

That's it. That's hello. Yeah. Know the other people shouldn't know anything. Right. So one guy gets up, Todd was telling me the story. One guy gets up from the table and he walks over. over to Tidal's table.

Hey, Tilo, how you doing, buddy? What's your girlfriend's name? Rosie, right? Yeah, yeah, that's mine. I'll talk with Rosie. Go sit on that empty chair over there. So he sent over right next to Carl give me. It's an empty chair.

So Tadour walks over and sits there. Hey, Carl, how are you? Good, good. He says, you come to this fresh ride a lot. Yeah. You come here with your wife. Yeah. That's your girlfriend?

What's her name, Rosie? Yeah. She's a beautiful girl. Really a beautiful girl. He said, what do you think these people who run the place, the waiters, the waitresses, the cook, and everybody? What do you think they say when they see Rosie and they see your wife? He said, oh, no, that would never say nothing. No, I know they won't say nothing.

they're afraid of you. Of course they won't. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when you're gone, amongst themselves. What do you think they say? Oh, Rosie's so much better looking than his wife or vice or vice. Tato. Do you love your wife? Yes, of course I do. Do you love me? Of course, Carla, I love you. I hope you don't love me like you love your wife. Now go sit with fucking Rosie.

Whoa. And otherwise, what he's saying is that why would you rub it right in your wife's rights? You have no respect for your wife. You have no respect for nobody. Right. You could always go to a restaurant somewhere else and cheat. Nobody would give a shit. Right.

But, and that's the same thing with Paul with the man in the fucking house. Wow. He had enough money to get a beautiful, beautiful room and have a hotel somewhere. Right. or buy a house or do whatever the fuck you want to go. Right. So basically this is causing the respect for him to be eroded. Yes.

And the higher-ups, even Tato, your captain, to be eroded. Now, at this time, the wise guys, Gotti and people around him are getting into drugs, which they're obviously not supposed to do. They're bending drugs. Right. Cocaine and heroin. And Castellano was old school. He was, that was a death sentence.

right? A lot of people broke that don't sell drugs in the mafia rule. Paul was dead against it. Now, let me ask you this. Were you yourself involved in drugs? No. You never got involved in drug dealing. No. I got, after I came out of prison, I got involved with a pinch with extricer. Right. But that's not, I never got in trouble with cocaine or crack or heroin. No. You were making enough money with construction. It had nothing to do with money. I don't like the people that you would have to deal with. Right. On a street level. Right. If I dealt gangster to gangster, that's one thing.

Right. I would be on a street level deal with people who would give up their mother for a fucking a bag of whatever. Right. Drugs. And I didn't want nothing to do with that. So then why did you go along with the hit with John? Why were you the one that went with him?

Because when I spoke with Frank Giaccio, we concluded that Paul broke so many rules himself. Right. It's time to take him out, save John and his crew, and try to make Gosoan Ostra back to what it's supposed to be. Okay. So this was not a power grab? You weren't trying to be boss?

No. A lot of people will say that about me, a power grab. Right. While I was, Paul was alive, I was doing very, very well. Right. I held a fucking million dollar fucking home in Staten Island. Right.

I owned a couple hundred thousand, three, four hundred thousand, five hundred thousand dollar farm in New Jersey. Yeah. I made it, I was making a ton of fucking money. Yeah. I had a lot, a lot of respect. I was an acting captain. Yeah. Under title, who I got a long grade with.

Yeah. I pulled off a major, major hit, the Johnny Keys hit, that nobody can, get done a mission impossible thing i was drew the roof why what power what what power grab you had everything i had it i had it but i agreed that paul's time had come yeah that remark with the cops yeah are the tough guys the maid in the house right i wouldn't care if he fucked all the brooklyn as long as it wasn't in his house right right under his wife's nose Right. So you're a real old school wise guy through and through. Basically, that's how I am.

Wow. Okay. So now we're at, tell me the year, I believe it's 1985. It's Sparks Restaurant, Steakhouse, Sparks, Steakhouse, Midtown Manhattan, the most crowded neighborhood on earth, practically, certainly in North America, right? today there's cameras hitting you from 20 different angles on every single corner of that neighborhood. And this is where Paul is about to meet his end. Can you walk us through it real quick? How long did the planning take for that? Seven, eight months. Wow, really? Yeah. And that, had you had other locations that you had considered for killing him? And you landed on Sparks is the best place? Yeah, Sparks was a late coming thing. It was right around Christmas time before Christmas.

And he made an appointment with a bunch of guys, Frankie de Chico included at Sparks. And that became the spot. Right. Oh, some people said, Joe Watts said, we could go land in his house. we there's a number of guys who always had the access

to go there. The maid was there, she'd open the door, she'd let us sit. Right. And we could kill him in front of his house. Right. I was the first one to say, what do you do? Kill the wife? Should we kill his wife? Are we going to kill his daughter? Yeah.

We killed the maid? And I'm not doing that. I'm out. Right. If that's what we're going to do, I'm out. Right. Frank and she'd go immediately agreed. Yeah. That deal, no.

Yeah. That's not us. There was a few bullshit plants, but they were real not that good. Right. And while we were living together, me and Frankie were living together in Joe Watts's house. He had a mansion in Staten Island. Yeah. He had maids quarters.

We got rid of the maid. Right. And me and Frankie de Chico and Frankie Botz slept in that maid's quarters for months. Wow. while we were talking with other people and doing other things and trying to plan. Neil, the underboss was sick. He had cancer.

John and Angelo went to him and asked for his blessings. And he told them, no. He told John Gotti, you broke every fucking room under the sun. And now you want my blessings to kill him. What the fuck did he do? you broke the rules and I'm going to give you right to kill him.

The answer is no. And we, none of us would kill Neil to get him out of the way or anything like that. Right. And he was dying of cancer. Yeah. Two weeks after he died of cancer, we completed the plot and we did it. It's go time. Neil was the only thing standing between you and John.

Neil was a major thing standing in the way of it. Now, the shooters, how many were there? There was four actual shooters. Eleven guys, everybody on the hits of the shooter. There's 11 guys on the hit, but there's actual four shooters. Right. Who were they? I don't want to get into the names.

I don't want to get into it. Not names, but were these guys associates? No, no, they're not associates. They're not associates. I'm made guys and stuff like that. Oh, really? Shooters are made guys? Yeah. Wow. Okay. From the families, I assume.

From our family. Yeah. Okay. And some of them are associates, they're going to be made right after that anyway. Right, right. But so, um, it came that, it came to us one day when Frankie Chico said, he reached out for an appointment that they were going to make in Sparks' Steakhouse. Frankie was The Chico was invited to that meeting Jimmy Brown

Danny Marino a few other guys so when we were in the basement of Joe Watts's house I said that's it John Gottiette said what do you mean

what's it that's where we're going to hit him there's hundreds of thousands of people there's cops on every corner it's right before Christmas people don't even go home. They wait for their families to come down and they all go out on the street. The streets will be ten times more crowded.

I said good. Yeah. It'll land to the confusion. Right. It'll work. We know a few things. We know who's going to the meeting and where it's happening. You can't park.

Right in the front, there's a place who can pull in with your car. They take it and go park it. Right. He's got to park right there. There's no other spots. Right. We know the place. We know the time is 5.30.

The parking spot, the restaurant. We know it all. We got to do a do-or-die-hit. John said, you're crazy. Frankie de Chico said, Sammy's already been involved in two Mafia Wars. This is the third one that he's planning. I'm in.

If you're not in, me and him are out. You do it yourself. whenever you feel like doing it. Wow. He backed up and he says, Amen, he says, amen, what do you want me to do? You go inside. There's going to be the guys who are going to be at the meeting.

They were all tough guys. They were all smart guys. As soon as they hear the shots or something, they're going to get up, open your jacket, show them the gun, tell them, sit the fuck down. Okay. John said, what do you want me to do?

I'm going to have the walkie-talkie. I'm going to do all the planning and talking to everybody. You drive for me. You're my driver. Right. That was the plan to go. Right. We met all the guys in my basement in Brooklyn, New York, of my office.

And we told them for the first time who exactly was going to get hit. Paul Kessler and Tommy Bellotti. I'm sure that blew them away. And I went into a whole conversation about it. Right. I said, this is a do. or die here. We all move together. If anybody moves before the pack,

just keep running because we'll kill you. If there's cops, we'll shoot it out with the cops. If we live, we live. If we don't live, we're going to make history here. We're not going to leave anybody. If he's dead, he's dead. If he's not dead. If he can hobble, we'll pull him out with us. Don't shoot innocent people unless they attack or try to stop us. Then kill them too.

One of the guys said, Sammy, can I say something? I said, yeah, what? He said, this is a do-a-die-hit. Yes. I'm not sure. Who'll make it, who won't make it? I hope we all will make it. We'll see.

But it don't matter. He says, okay. Sammy. If we don't make it I'll meet you in fucking hell. Perfect. Did you all hear what he said? I want everybody to feel that way.

We're going to fucking war in downtown Manhattan. It's never been done. I'll meet all he's in fucking hell if it don't work. But we're going to do it. We've been fucking with this too long.

Yeah. And the next day I met that whole team in Manhattan near a park. I forgot the name of the park, but it's around. You could find out. And it was, was it Gotti's idea to dress them in long coats with Russian hats on? No. Matter of fact, it wasn't my idea. But what I found out later that I think it was Angelo Regerio's idea.

Okay. When I heard it before it actually happened and I saw it, I said, no, I didn't plan that. but it was a great, great idea. Later on, when I cooperated, even the agent said, people all day, hundreds of witnesses, all they couldn't give height, weight, nothing. All they could say about is the Russian hats, the jacket, they didn't even know what the, and people ran.

It was such confusing. One off-duty cop who watched the whole thing happen, they told them, why don't you take your gun out? He said, it was too fucking well planned. I wasn't getting killed. I knew there had to be backup shooters and everything else. And there was. So when the hit went down, he pulled up at the exact time that he was supposed to be there?

A little bit late. Okay. A little bit late. But I was on the phone. The walkie talking the whole time. And when they were on the corner, I talked to them. I says he's on the corner. So as the light turns.

It's the slink in the first car out. And then that's how the whole thing came down. He pulls up. He gets out of the car. And their bone hit. He gets out of the car, he's hit immediately. Right. A number of times.

Did they run up on him? Like, were they walking on the sidewalk? They were walking on the sidewalk. They just pushed the crowd away. As soon as the shooting started, the whole crowd moved away like a wave of water. Right. People run and streaming in every which direction. Right.

So not only did we put off the perfect hit, not one cop, not one, legitimate person was touched. Right. So literally, you could never pull off a hit of this magnitude in the middle of the fucking street in between tens of thousands of people and were so well done, so well planned, that it's made history. And everybody got away. Everybody got away.

All the shooters got away. Everybody got away. Did that person, did you end up having to send that one person into the restaurant where the other wise guys were waiting? for Paul and tell them don't move. Frankie, yeah. So Frankie actually went in there and did that. Absolutely.

He stood there. And then somebody who works in the place came in and said, I think your boss was just shot. Right. And they got up and he just opened up his jacket and told him, sit the fuck down. Right. So.

And you would have got away with it, as we know, if John hadn't kept running his mouth. Four and a half years, five years later, whatever it was, he's corn on tape with not only that murder, but a whole bunch of other things and murders, and that's how we got arrested. And then I flipped. So, end of story.

You know, was that decision, because you gave your life to this thing, right? You believed in it as a soldier believes in the military that he is fighting with. Wholeheartedly. Yes. And you loved it. You love the life. And you found good things in it. Well, I love the life.

I love the people in the life. I think there was a lot of them that were really, really good people, really honorable people, people who gave a fuck about the rules and the life and everything. I mean, we've never like, you know, what I see what the government is doing today, it's not even a fucking comparison. Right. we never hurt the public like this is like it's getting hurt now right but this is the government that you chose to cooperate with well i'll tell you here's another stupid thing is that those people

i cooperated when john betrayed me not the whole mafia john okay explain that because no i'm not going to explain it that's easier fucking imbecile could i fucking understand that john betrayed me he he was going to not the whole the mom no not rat he was backing the tapes up he was backing up these tapes that he got caught on I'm not on these tapes I got caught on his tapes talking about me my murders and everything else and himself

and Frankie LaCasio and then he was going to back up the government's tapes he was telling the lawyers to back it up you could hear poor John Gotti has complaining about Sammy he killed everybody did every fucking thing poor John Gotti

You hear the tape. He's going to make that become part of the case. Why? Why? It's just common sense. Because why? Because so the jury feels sorry for him and listens to the tape how greedy Sammy is, how dangerous he is, how he killed all these people. So he's trying to shift blame from him to you.

The tapes did that. And all he's going to do now is back the tapes. have the lawyers not ask certain questions or do certain things. And while I'm in prison, I tell him, John, is that what you really want to do? Yeah, Sam, you have to. I'm the boss.

The boss must go free. So that is, that is ratting, in a way. It is. I don't call him a rat. You can call whatever you want. And anybody else could call him whatever they want. I don't call him a rat. I call him that he's a guy that I loved

with all my heart and soul. I killed Fall. I did anything under the sun. for every trials I did everything for. Without hesitation, without anything. Kicked up tons of money. But money's not important.

When you did that, he broke my heart. Wow. More than I think anybody could. And I quit. I quit the mafia. I quit him. When I walked, I didn't say it to his face, but when I walked in and I said, I walked away, I said, fuck him.

Fuck the mafia. I quit. and I went with the government. Would you have done that if you hadn't been caught on tape? Never. Listen, I got a hundred pitches. Go back and look at my history. I got pinched all my life. And I've been asked that question a million times. It never happened.

So never when I do that. Wow. But if you're going to fucking play this kind of a game and that's what goes in Austria and him and everything boils down to it, I'll play that fucking game too. Yeah. So that's what happened, basically.

So I left. But here's the crazy thing. I stayed with the government for five, six years before I got out of prison again. They never lied to me. They never fucked me. They never did anything. Wow. They were more loyal than Goes & Osher was to me.

Right. And not all of Goes Outer & Usher. I don't want to confuse it when I say that word. There was a lot of good people who never did that. There's a lot of people when I turned. They're supposed to turn on me. They didn't. So,

You know, and I loved the life. I met their wives, their kids. I played with them. Some of them sat on my lap. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say, oh, you're bad people, fuck them. I don't do that. I don't do that.

I don't do that kind of shit. What was it? What happened to Godi? Did he get, was his ego just too big? He is, uh, uh, uh, I find more now. I knew it because of the way he dressed it and acted the whole fucking time. Well, he was a narcissist motherfucker. who only cared him on himself.

Right. Later on, his Frankie Lecateau could have got out of prison and he fucked him over. Right. In a quiet way. Yeah. And Frankie died in prison.

He fucked his brother over in Johnny Kinig who could have copped out for 10 years. He said, no, go on trial and they got 50 years sentences. Right. All for his fucking pride. Yeah. I'll show you his pride.

He went to some fancy restaurants in New York. The guy came over all proud, the owner of a restaurant. Look, John, look, I showed him this wine. They want to know what kind of wine. Look, I showed him the wine. And he looks. And you tell them I drink this? And they buy a lot of it?

Yeah. Back then. It's $40 a bottle. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good price. No, don't sell it no more and say that. Sell it for $200 a bottle. that's a fucking ego

what he's, he'll have a fuck what he's selling it but you wanted John Gotti did it it's 200 a bottle right and it sounds like nothing right now

200 a bottle but when you're talking 20-something 30 years whatever it is $200 a fucking bottle like a lot like paying a thousand a bottle

of wine now who the fuck would buy it so just like Paul Castellano started breaking rules so too did Gotti eventually and he always broke rules He never ever stayed in the rules.

He was a drug dealer. His crew is drug dealers. They all went to drill for drugs. Right. I mean drugs. Yeah. I'm not talking about some pot or some ecstasy. I'm talking about heroin, crack cocaine.

I'm talking about heavy shit. Heavy shit. Big time, too. Big time, heavy and big amounts. Do you think now that all this information, especially pretty recently is coming out about the way that Gotti actually betrayed you and betrayed a lot of the rules, of the mob. Do you think that's kind of vindicated you from in the eyes of the old guys? Listen, I think the eyes of the old guys,

I can talk for a lot of people I know in the life. It vindicated me because they know why the, when you know a guy is a tough guy and he flips, the first thing I'm going to say is, you fucking rat, I'm going to say, what the fuck did that? Why would he do that? Right.

that a time alone and these stories, and not from me from everywhere has vindicated me. And it's not vindicated. I broke a fucking rule. I'm supposed to die for that. And if it happens, it happens.

If it doesn't, it doesn't. I can give a fuck molest either way. And like I told, people in Hollywood, if I get killed tomorrow, it's a great way to end my story. I'm 79.

Be a great, great movie. Great ending. You survived. I survived. Can you tell me real quick? Against all odds. And I never walked around with fear. I never hid.

I came down to you in this lovely neighborhood. So I think I'm safe in this lovely neighborhood. I'm super honored to have you. And great. Tell us. Great. Please plug. Plug away.

Tell us about your channel. Your book. Obviously, we're going to give a super hard plug to. A lot of people read books of our superstar guests. Where can they check you out, Sammy? Page. Mm-hmm. He has a cameo.

He's on everything. Okay. Great. And what's the one, TV? Ourthing.com. Okay. Great. Here's my website.

And listen, and this guy wound up being a good guy, good host and everything. And he has no idea. I got a gun on me, bro. I would blow his fucking head right over his shoulder. no, I got no gun. I should have made him lift his shirt up before I walked in here. I was going to lift your shirt up. Salvatore, you got a great smile, man.

And really, like, I felt the humanity in you. And I'm just really touched that you came in. Thank you for your candidness. Last thing. What's your most, what's in your life, 80 years looking back? What's your most proudest achievement? achievement and your biggest regret. My proudest achievement, I married a good woman.

I had great children. I got great grandchildren. I'm about to become a great-grandfather. One of my grandchildren is pregnant. Amazing. My regrets, I really don't even know. I have people that I'm working with in Hollywood I don't want to say their names but I got a good fucking friend

I know him as a kid he worked in the gym where I was I got beautiful good people around me I don't regret shit I regret things everybody has certain regrets but um you know I think and I always think this way everything I did the good the bad, the ugly

is maybe what I am today. I'm proud of what I am today. So I regret nothing. Or I wouldn't have been me. Yeah. Would you proposing to me like you're proposing? I'm so beautiful. I'm so great. Maybe we would be dating if I was somebody else.

I don't know. It is California, you know. A lot of men run around with men here. I'm only kidding. But listen, this team was great. great. Awesome. And what was your name again? This is Brian, the producer. Brian who, and then I hate to do Jappy Shares. So I'm going to do a public. I think I'm going to hire Brian to come and work for you. Oh, you're going to steal my guy? Well, not if we could share him. How about that?

Let's go into business. We'll make a conglomerate out of it. Sammy the Bull, go check out his book, his website, his podcast, our thing. And go conquer Hollywood, man. You're still young. Thank you, bro. Thank you, guys. And stick around for the Patreon. Take care. Peace out. Thank you, Sammy.