The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - The Truth About Whitey Bulger & The Fall Of Irish American Mafia: Former Irish Mob Boss TELLS ALL

Episode Date: February 23, 2025

In this exclusive interview, John "Red" Shea, former Irish-American gangster, shares his untold story of rising to power alongside the infamous James "Whitey" Bulger in South Boston during the 1980s. Shea opens up about his role as a key cocaine supplier, the inner workings of Bulger's criminal empire, and the ultimate betrayal by corrupt FBI agent John Connolly. Red covers his experience with the Irish Mafia including: -How Whitey Bulger ruled South Boston for three decades -The rise of Red Shea and his pivotal role in the Irish mob's drug trade -Shocking details about FBI corruption and how it protected Bulger -Why Whitey Bulger went on the run for 16 years and how he was finally captured -Inside stories of drug deals, loyalty tests, and survival in the underworld -The truth behind Whitey Bulger’s brutal prison murder Red Shea also discusses his life after prison, finding closure through his book "Rat Bastard", and the lessons learned from a life entangled in crime. Go Support Red! Book: https://a.co/d/4BpTmsG IG: https://www.instagram.com/red_shea_official/ Podcast: @redsheapodcast This Episode Is #Sponsored By The Following: The Perfect Jean! F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code CONNECT15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/connect15 #theperfectjeanpod BetterHelp! Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/connect and get on your way to being your best self. Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He said Red Shea had the most potent cocaine it was. Every two weeks I was walking out with at least 100,000, 100, something, 2,000. It doesn't matter what level you are. You actually and Yen become a pawn for rats and law enforcement. I would never, ever, ever, ever be another stepping stone for them ever again. John Shea, better known on the streets as Red, is an Irish-American gangster who rose to prominence in the 1980s in South Boston, alongside James Whitey Bulger, the most notorious Irish gangster in mafia history. Unless you've been living under Iraq, you've heard of this guy.

He was Jack Nicholson's character in the movie The Departed. Whitey controlled South Boston with an iron fist for three decades. And then in 1995, when the feds finally made their case against him, Whitey skipped town and went on the lamb for 16 years before he was finally arrested in California in 2011. This was John Shea's mentor and boss. At just 24 years old, Red became the point. principal cocaine supplier for Whitey's crew, the Winter Hill Gang, and eventually took over

operations completely, overseeing all of the Coke distribution in the greater Boston area for Whitey. In 1990, Red went down in a DEA sting and was sentenced to 14 years in prison. And it was during this time that he learned about his boss, Whitey's betrayal. That's right, Whitey Bulger was an FBI informant since at least the late 1960s. That's the reason he was able to stay free for so long. John lived through the most fascinating era in American underworld history. It was truly an honor to have him on the show. He's got a New York Times bestselling book called Rat Bastards,

where he goes in depth about this time, his relationship with Whitey Bulger, and how, in the midst of informants and rats, he stayed solid, kept his mouth shut and did his time like a man. And for a bonus episode with John, where he goes in on some of these mafia internet rats, head over to patreon.com slash the connect show. All right, without further ado, you're getting a piece of history today. John Red Shea right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell.

Whitey wasn't stupid by any means. You know, we're talking about a very calculating individual. There wasn't anyone he didn't manipulate. And there was solid guys that he killed. Guys that would never rat just like me. Wasn't long before he got to where he was. It went in there and executed him. It's an interesting philosophy you have.

It's very just ingrained in you. It's very rare. And I think that's what makes the story so exceptional. But also your age. Like you were so young when you got, you know. 17, I think. Not when I, well, when I get involved. Yeah.

17 or 18. So it was, you know, coming from the neighborhood, you were involved in something growing up anyway, you know. whether it was shoplifting, you know, but I don't mean shoplift now at CVS. I'm talking the big department stores, if you will, for the big items. If it wasn't something like that or waiting for a truck out in the neighborhood,

on the corner, waiting for a truck to come by that's making deliveries to a local store, a market or whatever, or even appliances, people, you know, getting TVs that are going to be going in their home, but it hasn't made it in the home yet

and the driver just went into the home to see if everything was kosher to get this thing off the truck and put it in there meanwhile they come out the TV's not there right yeah and southeast people I think people are fascinated with South Boston and the Irish

there because it's like the last white ethnicity unless you count like the Italians but like it was the last South Boston was the last place that Irish Americans had a real ghetto. So when I got indicted, there was three major projects. And they were some of the biggest projects in the country.

And they were all white. But after we got indicted, that's when the shift came and they started putting minorities into the projects after that. So there was definitely a key there. And it's great that you brought this up because it's definitely a key there. where there was more to the eye. Wow. So after you guys went away in the early 90s.

Yeah, they just started flooding. So now there's black people to live in Southie? And the projects. Wow. Hispanics, black. Because that was like Dorchester and Roxbury. And then what happened on that is there was no heroin that was allowed back then. It was basically cocaine and marijuana and some pills.

And even Angel Dust. at the time was a no-no and southeastern. Why didn't want Angel Dust? He said absolutely nothing because he feared that the person who was on Angel Dust didn't care who you were, didn't care. They had no fear. And he didn't want that type of individual

in the neighborhood just in case they wanted to do something to him. So there was a psychological and a manipulation in his behalf to keep that out of there to keep himself safe, himself. Right. But that said, people did get a whole angel dust. They were able to do it at times. But, yeah, there was no heroin. Heroin was not allowed.

And then after we all got indicted and went to prison, all set and done, and the minorities came into the projects, that's when the heroin, they were selling $5 bags, $10 bags, and young kids started overdosing and some had died. And a lot of kids had got hold. hooked on heroin because heroin is a very, very potent drug to get easily hooked on. So I, after I get out of prison, my book come out. I did a radio show in Boston, and I was a big radio show.

And I had a guy get on the radio, and he called in. I was taking call-ins. And he said to me, you know, you got me hooked on heroin. You got me. You're the one of put me, put me into this position and this and that, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I let him have his day. I let him speak. And now, my turn to speak.

So I went to go speak and he interrupted me. And I said, hey, listen, listen to me good. I gave you to do respect and to tell your side of the story and what you're feeling and what you've been through and everything else. Well, now give me to do time. and of course the guy's on the radio show absolutely red is absolutely correct he gave you the time now let red speak i said first of all pal you got the wrong guy it was the wrong generation i said wrong generation because heaven wasn't allowed and then i um i said to him and another thing i said just let me say this anyone who gets into this game whether you're using it

or selling it, or you're in this game. You know right from wrong just as well as I do. I'm not putting a gun to your head to say you have to do this, otherwise I'm going to kill you. I'm not doing that. You're in the game because you want to be in the game, because you've tried it somewhere else, or whatever. You want to be in the game.

We're all in this game together and circumstances happen, whether you become hooked on drugs or like me go away. for years in prison for it. One way or another, we're suffering from it all. But that said, you need to look in the mirror and say, hey, I'm here because of me. Just like Whitey had said to me and used that philosophy and psychological philosophy at that as well when I first got indicted. You know, it takes a strong person to reach inside themselves and say, I'm here because of me.

And which is true. That philosophy is true. Well, it's true. You can take that philosophy to any place in life, not just criminality. Exactly. You know, that's taking responsibility. That's as old as like Marcus Aurelius and, you know, the ancient, what do you call it, stoicism, philosophy. Now, that philosophy is true, but it's all if you can, you actually practice it.

and preach it. Mm-hmm. So I'm one of those guys that obviously practiced it and preach it. Now, in South East's been gentrified, I think, pretty heavily, right? immensely, yes. So the projects are still there, though? The projects are still there. Is that where the only poor people left, I assume, are in the projects?

Are there still poor Irish or working-class Irish from the old days? They're still working-class Irish, yes. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely still working-class Irish. Right. But predominantly now, it's very gentified. And, you know, you still have your projects.

But I'm going to tell you, these projects today aren't like the projects I grew up in because they redid them all over. Refurbished every one of them. They look like brand new beautiful apartment buildings, if you will, or townhouses, if you will. And they just done it moving within the last few years. And they look beautiful, believe it or not. Yeah, no, it's right on the water. Yeah, whites love water. No, yeah.

Yep, you get that right. I lived right across the street when I was growing up in the project from the, we had what they called at the time Mokely Park or Columbus Park. Now it's Mockley Park named after Joe Mockley, congressman, the same as the federal courthouse in Boston is Mowgli courthouse. Because Joe Mowgli was a salty guy and he was beloved. And he actually helped me get moved from Michigan, Detroit, back close to the home. So my mom could come and see me without any hot. Right. When you were locked up.

When I was locked up. Okay. So you came up. You're born in 65. You're as a young kid. You're boxing right in the 70s. And you became like a really like acclaimed Southie fighter. But during this time, the 70s in South Boston, this is when Whitey, you didn't know him at the time.

He didn't know you. You were just a kid. But he really starts to control South Boston. Boston and take power. That is correct. During that time and your fates are, you know, 10 years away from convening, from merging with each other. Can you explain how Whitey came to control South Boston? Well, it took him a little while, okay? There was fractions that had happened and some wars that had happened. And after those wars happened between fractions throughout Boston, he was a part of one of those fractions. But he used that fraction to his, to his benefit, because then he wanted to,

he worked for some of the bosses and he wanted to, he wanted to eliminate them so he become, he could become the boss. The Winter Hill gang is that, I think it's like a myth. That wasn't his gang. That was a different family, right? They were, it was basically, um, a guy named Howie Winters. They helped create that and build that. And what he kind of like joined them later on down the road. and Stevie Fleming. Right. And then they end up ratting on how we went this and how we winters went away for horse race and stuff like that.

Wow. That's how they took over. That's how they took over. And nobody had any idea back then. Nobody. That they were working with the FBI. They had no idea. Wow.

Can you explain? And Stevie Fleming was an informant before Whitey. He was an informant years before Whitey. So Whitey came in. And then he realized that he was in a pickle because of Stevie. And he made his conscious decision to say, hey, I'm going to try to make it work in my favor and kind of pulled this away from Stevie because, quite frankly, he had more intelligence in Stevie. And everyone knew that. But he also had the power of his brother, the state senate.

And he was more powerful than the governor in Massachusetts. Whatever he wanted, he got done, and that was it. Billy Bulger? Billy Bulger. Was he dirty? Well, at that time, nobody knew that, but I could tell you this much. He definitely helped his brother facilitate. I am sworn getting him with the FBI and John Conley, who was another salty guy, who was an FBI guy.

And his goal was like, we can make this work for Whitey. And this is how we're going to do it. And that was facilitated, no doubt, in my mind, through Billy Bulger, because John Connolly, after he worked as an FBI agent, he worked for the Boston Edison. And the Boston Edison was controlled. There was an electrical company. And he was controlled by, and it was big, big company. And it was helped Billy Bulger had a lot of influence there. So he was able to put people into that spot.

and earn a good living after there. Oh, interesting. Yes. So after it all came out that he, that Connolly was working with Whitey? Nobody knew then. Oh, okay. Nobody knew then. I see.

Nobody knew. But Connolly had retired. And when he retired, he went to the Edison. And Billy took care of him. Right. Exactly. Wow. Yeah.

One hand washes the other. Oh, yeah. So there's no doubt of my mind that Billy wasn't the one who facilitated that relationship with Whitey and John Connolly. Now, we had known of the hearsay, if you will, of John Connolly and the relationship with Whitey, but nobody ever expected, even the Winter Hill guys that are older guys that were with Whitey and around Whitey at that time. They didn't expect that he was giving information. They thought he was receiving information and paying for that information. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. This is the beginning.

of when kingpins or bosses started to do that. You know, if you look now, it's all, all the internet and God, whatever it is, is concealing nothing. You know, Mayo Zimbada, the most wanted drug trafficker from Sinaloa was working. He's been working with the feds and the Mexican feds for decades. Most of the bosses did. And, but I think Whitey was like kind of on the cusp. That's kind of like a cutting edge move to be working. working with the FBI and feeding them your competition. Spring weekends are all about family, sunshine, and evenings on the patio. Before everyone arrives, I stop by my local total wine and more to grab a great bottle to share.

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Not only was he feeding him his competition, but he also gave up some of his guys along the way if he needed to. Right. And there was no doubt about it. There were guys that went away from prison for hijacking and stuff like that. And after they were done doing their time, he brought him back in with him. They had no idea.

They had no clue. And just like myself, when I was, had taken over and he put me in that position, he had already known because Washington reached out and said, because the DEA said, we're going after these Irish guys, okay? And we're going to target these guys for drugs. And we're going to go after them. Now, you've got the number two in Washington, okay, that's saying, hmm, okay, and he turns to his guy and he says, aren't those guys our guys in Boston? And the guy says, yeah, they are our guys. He said, call Boston right away and let them know what's happening. I'm being the youngest guy involved.

He had an alternative motive for me as a young guy. He already put me through a test, you know, with the Uzi and all that, seeing what kind of balls I had. And if I'd stand up and if I'd give my friends up and all that, he tested me in every way in a basement with the Uzi. And guess what? I passed. And after that, that's why he put me in that position to be the boss of the drug organization and to run the drugs from Boston to Florida to Boston and back and forth. But that said, he knew. he was calculating.

So he was using me to protect himself because he'd already got word from Washington through John Connolly, that rap piece of shit, and to use me as a sacrificial lamb. Now, I'm a young guy. I'm up in common. I'm eager.

He played everything to that. And how did I know as a young guy that was eager to, and wanted to emulate him in ways? I wanted to emulate him in ways because at that time, people looked at Whitey, wow, solid, solid guy, legend guy, whatever. Now, there might be some Monday quarterbacks that say, oh, I knew he was a rat. I knew he was a rat.

Well, when did you say something then? Why didn't you say something then? Monday quarterbacks, those people, they're here every day. Every week we get that, right? Especially in football season. So do you think Whitey had a plan to give you up when he put you in basically the head of the Coke operation? 100%. 100%. You used me as a sacrificial lamb.

So are you telling me that that's the reason you went to prison or you went down just from their indictment, the DEA's indictment? Look, who put it in play? Do you think why did he put that indictment in play? So it went like this. There was organized crime, the state organized crime unit. And at the time, the unit was, his name was Newman Flanagan. And he ran the organized crime unit. They could not handle the surveillance and everything out.

So they had a call the feds in so they can get the money and get help to surveil us. Now, I wasn't the boss at the time, but I was running the drugs from Boston and up and down. I was the main source for that organization at the time. And then that's when Whitey started getting word and stuff like that. And when I was getting followed, I was pretty good at it in catching them. And I'd say, I'd bring it to Whitey's attention. And he'd say to me, yeah, that guy's out of Newman Flanagan's office. And so one day, I said, okay, let me test this out.

I was standing on the corner with a friend of mine. I said, that guy's a cop. My friend said, nah, that guy ain't no cop. Hold on. Excuse me, officer. Let me introduce myself. Red Shea. He put down the window he goes,

Newman Flanagan's office. He goes, he looked at me because I made him. And he went, you're a smart guy, Red. You're a smart guy. Now, my buddy who's next to me was like, holy fuck, how did you know that? Easily, why did he tell me? Why did he play both sides so well?

He didn't play checkers. He played chess. Yeah. And he was great at it. It's like espionage. Yeah. These kingpins. Oh, and he was.

Play chess. One day about Whitey was extremely well read. Yeah. Yeah. And he used to tell me all the time, read, read, read. I mean, there were parts of Whitey that, you know, I looked at him at times like a father figure in that sense because I never had a father at home. And I looked at most of all these guys because I was the youngest guy involved.

I looked at most of these guys as a father figure. Yeah. In one way or another, or like a big brother that I never had before. Right. So it sounds like even if you hadn't. taking the pinch that sent you away for a decade, eventually to save himself, Whitey would have given you up. So I'm going to say this, and I'm glad you brought this up. I'm glad you're asking me this question, because my attorney, Tony Cotonelli, who represented mob guys throughout

history and everything else, fat Tony Salerno, John Gottigase, he was on. Mops is from Boston and everything else. He was the one who broke open years back. and that they found out about the rats. And there was so many rats in the underworld in Boston, there was hundreds of them, hundreds of them that the FBI had groomed over the years. Hundreds. Could you imagine that? And they're supposed to be the code is to live and walk to walk and be a man.

And now there were guys who did it. There were guys who did do that. And you know what? no matter what they did, I'm not saying what they did was right, but it was admirable, admirable that they took their heat and took their punishment. That's a man. That's a man, just like myself. I would never give anybody up, ever.

I take the heat no matter what. Thank God I had good lawyers. I could tell you that. And I'd thank God for that today because I wouldn't be here right now speaking and having this conversation with you. So do you, there's also an Italian mafia out of Boston. I think a lot of people don't even know that because it's so predominantly Irish. We all stereotype the Irish model. I get that because he bossed and Irish and that.

But I mean, the Italians were bigger than the Irish. Let's put it. Okay. Throughout New England. Okay. Right. And it goes back to Rhode Island. Providence.

And then and even further to Springfield. But the main hub at that time was Rhode Island. And the guy who was a hard-nosed guy and ran things with an I-N-Fist was L.S., Raymond Patrick Sr. I mean, he didn't fool around. But I tell you, when Whitey's name was brought up in certain things, he said, just let them have what he wants, you know, just give him. Because he, from what I understand, he respected Whitey in that sense, but didn't want to have a turf war either. Right. So can you tell what was the difference between the Irish Whitey's family, his mob, and the Italian mob in Boston? What were the biggest differences? As far as, you know, rackets, strength, just everything. In Boston, you know, Whitey and Stevie, they were hands-on guys.

And they took care of business, a lot of business on their own. Yeah, they murdered people themselves. Like Whitey's strength. He strangled like Steve Flemmy's like sister-in-law or something to death. His girlfriend. Oh. And it was his stepdaughter, by the way. That's how sick that is. Brutal.

Brutal. Brutal, yeah. I mean, it just, who does that? I mean, who does that? I mean, who does that even want to go with this stepdaughter? I mean, seriously, this is the mentality of people that you deal with. And I was dealing with, unfortunately. And I was too young not to know better about that mentality.

I just thought, hey, Braun, everybody looked up to watch. Whitey, he's making a lot of money. And as a young kid, you admired that. Before the Coke came into play, what were his main earning tactics? Like, how was Whitey making money? He was earning it on bookmaking. And back then, bookmaking was huge because you didn't have the gambling and the social apps and gambling and all that stuff today. All the big casinos in Boston.

We had none of that. Right. So you could walk up and down the street and salty on Broadway and see an old-timer, you know, and I knew them, the good guys. And they were just trying to make a living, you know, and they take the daily number. Okay, hey, Joe, give me 65, 6, 6, 6, 7 today. Play it for the week, you know, here's 30 bucks, 20 bucks, you know. And then if they hit, they hit.

So it was stuff like that. and um husk uh uh taking the huss bets and dogs and everything else that were running over at the racetrack uh and suffolk downs and i think there was some hijacking too and hijacking yeah and then marijuana started coming into effect that was before the cocaine and he had a little hand in that also right and so did he was the irish mob structured like the italians with the behind the very strict hierarchy with the the under boss, you know, the copos? It was very similar. So I did an interview with Business Insider,

and I couldn't believe that they actually had that, what they call it Christmas tree. They call it a Christmas tree because everybody's situated. And I didn't realize that I never seen it before until then. They had dug that up, and I saw that I was on that Christmas tree. Okay. Yeah, and you, where were you on that Christmas tree? I was right down.

down or right about here because I was the youngest guy, but I was the guy who also was the lead of the drugs at the time. Right, right. You were, you, you were interesting because we're kind of skipping ahead here, but you started selling drugs independently of the organization. And you found the plug. You found the connect, which is kind of wild. You, you were the guy who had the four white, Whitey's organization had the Cuban guys down in Florida. And you were already bringing material back to Boston and getting it off when Whitey started to bring you in. So my first kilo, okay, that I went to Florida run. I went all the way to Key Lago and I had to connect to a woman down there. And she said, I got a guy and he can get you a kilo, you come down here.

And at that time, you didn't have the, securities into, anything into the, you know, airports and everything else. And I could use a different ID, a fake idea, it didn't matter. I put on Joe Schmoe, and I'm flying on Joe Schmo. But anyway, that said, so I said, I called down, talked to her. I said, beautiful, I'm going to come down next week. What do I need? You need $20,000.

Now, that was a lot back then, even for one kilo. A guy obviously was making a pretty good amount of money on it. Yeah. And so he said, I said, okay, I get down, I meet the guy, and she's living in like a trailer on the coast of the Keys. And she says, she introduced me the guy and he says, I need to get the money. You need to give me the money.

I said, yeah. I get the money when you bring the product. How's that sound? No, that's not how it works, because if you give me the money, then I know you're not a cop. So I said, hmm, okay. I turned to the girl. I said, are you guaranteeing this? If this doesn't work out, are you giving me my $20,000 back?

She said, yes. I trust him, yes. I said, then we're going to roll. I'm going to roll the dice. I'm going to gamble here. I'm going to take that shot. So I did. And so that day, I'm waiting, I'm waiting, I'm waiting, I'm waiting.

All of a sudden, I hear a helicopter go by. I'm like, hmm, interesting, a helicopter. I didn't think anything of it. All of a sudden, I'm waiting, waiting. I'm like, this son of a bitch ain't coming back, and I'm hooting and hollering. I'm like, I'm losing my shit right now. Screaming and yelling, right? Yelling at her.

What the fuck? Are you fucking kidding me? So all of a sudden, it was just like midnight. She wakes me up. The guy shows up with the kilo. I see the kilo. I open up. I look at it.

It was beautiful stuff. Great stuff. I was so fucking happy. I wanted to hug the guy right then and near, you know, because I got my money back and now I'm going to go make some money. So what I did from there is the next day, I flew out from Miami and I strapped the cocaine to myself. I put one biscuit in front and another biscuit in back.

I strapped it up with one of those belts that you lose weight with. and I had a over like a kind of like a Hawaiian shirt in a way so it was like baggy so you couldn't see anything and I timed myself going into the to the airport

because I knew that they I was always told that they had dogs that sniffed for the drugs and stuff like that where they were little chihuahuas or whatever type of dog they trained I was always aware of that and so I would time

as best I could to get to the airport through the gate just in time. And those days, again, you could get away with that because they didn't have the going through with the, you know. No, scanners or anything like that. And none of that. None of that. That was a good old days.

Yeah. I missed out. Yeah, yeah. So you were bringing bricks back even before you whitey knew the extent of it. That is pretty crazy. So that's when the guys came in. They said, hey, Red, you got a, you know, you got a brand new BMW. Right.

I see with a new Rolex on, you know. You know, you don't get as much off for us anymore. Right. Because you were buying from Whitey's guys, but then you got a better, you went straight to the source, basically. Yes. And at that time, I wasn't good with them guys because I was getting stuff from them, but I was also boxing professionally at the time. And they all, I fought with Vinnie Paz-Zenzer in Atlantic City that one year.

And they all came down to Atlantic City to see me. The whole crew came down. And the one guy, his name, he testified against Whitey, and I could talk about it now because I not mentioned his name in my book because I didn't give up people who never were indicted at the time. I wouldn't do that. So his name is the same last name. I have Shea.

Billy Shea. So Billy, he said to me, he was the boss, and he says to me, hey, if you win, he had a gold bracelet that he had custom made. and he had his name on it. And it was a gold rope chain bracelet. And in the middle, it was his name, Billy, but all in diamonds. Yeah. So as a young kid, I was like, I said, that's nice.

He goes, if you win your pro fight, I'll buy you a custom-made bracelet without the diamonds, though. I said, okay. I went down there, of course, I made sure I fought extra hard there winning that bracelet, the top of the sharp money that I won. Yeah. Wow. And you won. And I won, yes.

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Thank you so much for sponsoring the show. Let's get back into the episode. So you were moving keys and fighting professionally still? At that time, yes. Your discipline was fantastic. I don't think you were using Coke either. I only used cocaine. I had a bad experience one time.

One time, and I'm glad I experienced that problem at the time because it kept me away from ever using that cocaine again. I went out with friends of mine, unfortunately. He's, he's, yeah, they're deceased now. Departed. Maybe one guy. One of them died in Amikau. Another one died, took his own life.

But that said, we went out. They were, I was younger than they were at, but they were experienced that using cocaine. And I was selling cocaine. It was my cocaine. So, you know, we went out and we had some fun. went out with them. In the beginning, it was great. Oh, yeah, I feel good, you know, and all that. And then all of a sudden it hit me. I was so paranoid. I was watching over my shoulder. I just, I just couldn't take it. It was just too much for me. And, you know, I was, I was, I was, a

newbie doing it, if you will. And, and you know what? It was the best thing that ever happened me in that sense, because it deterred me from ever doing cocaine in my life, in my life again. I was in it for the money. I wasn't in it to do it. I was in it for the money and to prosper and to try to have a better life for myself. But that said, I got really sick over it. And my buddy says to my boxing trainer, he says, yeah, he can't do drugs. He can't do that.

He is not in him. He can't do that. My boxing trainer said, good. I'm glad he can't do that. I'm glad he can't do that. And I'm glad he ain't in him to do drugs. So that was my experience with cocaine, and it was my last experience with cocaine. Thank God.

Yeah, you had a real head on your shoulders at a very young age. It's not surprising the Whitey saw that in you and recruited you. He used to say, even with one of the guys, Kevin Weeks, because Kevin was younger, younger than he was like my older brother in that sense, if you will. And he used to say, he told my trainer one day, he says, he reminds me of myself when I was a kid so much. He needs guidance. Tell him to get next to Kevin because Kevin can relate to him

and they're closer in age than I am to him. So he'd be the guy telling Kevin and all of us what to do up there if you were running everything. But he figured that I would be able to relate better because of the age difference. And that said, he said, yeah, because, you know, most people are trying to break out of prison. He's trying to break in.

Yeah, yeah, you were ahead there for sure. Were you keeping the Coke in the neighborhood, or were you moving it to wholesalers all over Boston? No, we had people not just in Boston, but that had outskirts of Boston and stuff like that. Yeah, you have people picking up quantity. Yeah. Were you cutting it down and stretching it? We were, yes. As a matter of fact, I'm glad I did at one point because the cocaine was one of the batches

that we got was so potent that I guess there was some people who shot it up. And one of my guys who was getting it from me said, hey, a guy almost OD'd and they had a, you know, revive him or bring in the hospital or whatever. and as soon as he told me that, as soon as I learned that, I said to myself, oh, fuck, I said, this stuff is really potent. Now, I already tapped on it a little bit as it was. I went and I hit it again. I hit it again.

And by me hitting that again, it brought it to a level where no one was going to, you know, pass out a dial or whatever, if you will. So I got it to a level that was okay. But it was great for me, I'll tell you that. And I'm glad he told me because I made so much more money on top of it. Right. So if you were buying a key for 20 in Miami, how much could you sell it for in Boston after you all stepped on it and moved it? Well, if I sold it wholesale just as it is, I would have got at least 60 grand.

Wow. Just passing it off. Just passing it off. But I had a big, I had a big distribution business and half ounce business. and, you know, I had a big business just in ounces. People would buy ounces at a time and stuff like that. And that's where you really made your money because you were stretching out even more. Wow.

Coming from a business standpoint. Right. So you can make $100,000 off that. Exactly. Crazy. And a lot of these bars. Just in ounces. And a lot of these bars in the neighborhoods, that's where you would get your Coke before

cell phones, right? A lot of that would retail. Yeah, you go to the bars and, And the guys like me and be in there, hey, what's up? How you doing? Hey, Red, you know. Graham, the gram business back then was huge, huge. Yeah.

I used to sit home and grab a magazine. I cut up the magazine, you know, and I used to make the gram pockets and stuff and then fill my cocaine up that way. I'd have a couple thousand dollars at least, you know, in grams. Thousands, full five thousand. Anyway, it was. It's been so long. But yeah, easily four or five grand a night, just in grams. Crazy.

So you're such a young guy. And that was just me beginning. Okay. So you're like a 21, 22 year old kid. You're making all this money, hundreds of thousands of dollars on your own. You did the legwork. You went down to Florida to find the wholesale price. What was the value of going with Whitey instead of just staying independent?

So I'm the guy who took the chance. Precisely. And I had no idea where I'd end up, but I took the chance as a young guy. And I think that happens to come from maybe my boxing days, or maybe it's just something that's, you know, in me, taking chances. But I took the chance because I wanted to be like the other guys in the neighborhood and make money, too. And boxing wasn't cutting that for me. being a professional fighter, even though I was starting out early in my age, it just wasn't cutting it for me.

These guys had pockets full of money. I mean, it was hard, you know, coming from the projects as a young kid. I saw that, and I saw the power that they wielded, if you will. You know, if there was a problem in the neighborhood or whatever, people went to them and say, hey, can you give me a hand? Do you know this guy? Can you talk to this guy or whatever? You know, old school stuff, you know?

Yeah. And some of these people were just, they weren't just like regular neighborhood people. They were regular neighborhood people that were even in law enforcement. You know? So, so they, you know, these guys had some, wielded some power in that sense. And, you know, it wasn't so much of power, but it was the money that I saw. It was the money and how much money they were making. And I wanted to do that, too.

So you think you could have made more going with Whitey as opposed to just staying by yourself? Well, let's get to that. So that said, they come to me, Billy Shea and the crew, they come to me and they said, hey, you've got the brand new well, actually got the brand new beamw, you know, buying as much off us no more. I said, well, you know what? Because I got balls. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't hide behind anything, if you will. I said, yeah, because I have my own connect. I have my own connect.

Oh, you do, do you? I said, yeah, I do. Now, they know I have balls, and they like me, though. They like me because I know I have balls. So they said, your own connect. I said, yeah, in Florida, kilos. Really? Now they connect wasn't that good.

Their connect was not that good And their cocaine wasn't that potent either Yeah Mine was And even Billy Shea testified against Whitey Bulger In court and trial Saying how they recruited me

When I was a young guy And he said Red Shea had the most potent cocaine It was Yeah I was I guess you know Great Yeah you know

But you know So they're getting their shit middleman Basically Yes, exactly. I was getting it right from shit. It was coming right over on the plane, right, or whatever, however it was coming. Sometimes it was plain, I will say that, and dropped in Florida. And then I, they'd pick it up. And then I was getting it straight from where they made it. So that said, he said, how about this, Red? Billy Shea was a calculating, quick-thinking, smart individual. He was well-red himself, college-educated in prison when he was there. And he came to me, and he thought quick, even with all the guys around him because he was the boss. He said, I'll tell you what, Red.

Why don't you join us? And you can be the main distributor for us. you can bring all the cocaine in for us. And at the same time, you don't have to, you don't have to add your people in with us. Just so I, so you're telling me, I'm going to come with you. I get to keep my own entity without sharing it with you.

And I bring the stuff in with you. And I get to share, the profits as you as you with you guys I said let me think about it she says don't take too long right I said take it easy relax that's a good deal though you fucking right it was so I said I said let's do it so I started because I started as the guy that drove the Florida got the multiple kilos and brought them back to Boston and distributed to their people that got distributed. We had guys who distributed it.

But I was the guy who actually put it all together when I got home. I knew how to put it together. I knew how to cut it up, you know, to stretch it out a little bit and make profit, but not too much stretching out because you wanna make sure you have a good product. Because if you don't have a good product,

people are gonna complain and you're gonna have, you're gonna have a difficulty people coming to you. So what was your end? So from from bringing it working with those guys. So my end is when we were at the end of the day, okay, we would at every two weeks we'd have a big table like this full of cash. And then we'd have money machines counting. And after it was well said and done, everybody got their split. Some guys who were with us, they weren't because they weren't the top guys, they didn't get that much. They got a good week's pay.

Let's put it that way. But it was basically four of us, basically four of us who got that money. Splitting the profits. Splitting the profits. And every two weeks I was walking out with at least 100,000, 100,000, 200,000, depending on how good or a week, week, good month we had. And plus I had my own business, side business that I was making a ton of money off. So I was killing it.

I mean, I really was. And then the buy money when you went to pick up the work in Florida, did you have to put in your own money or are you using the organization's money? No, we used the organization's money. Beautiful. Exactly. Wow, that's fucking wild. So then what is, Whitey obviously doesn't have his hands directly in the Coke pot. what is his royalties on, you know, a big, like, say you guys move 10 keys in a couple of weeks, like, what will Whitey get a taste of?

So Billy Shea had control over that. It was his because Whitey dealt with Billy Shea directly. Yeah. And he was the one who he would get the money from. Billy Shea would pay Whitey prior to me taking over. and that said, I don't know what his profit was because Billy never told me and when they met they were private.

Right. White was very, very, very calculating and how he did things. Even when he, after I took over, he was very private and we would meet in the evening in the dock and stuff like that in certain places and stuff like that in certain places

and stuff like that because he didn't want his name associated to that drug business. So that was the myth that Whitey never did drugs, but yet he really did. But he tried to separate himself as much as he could

without exposing himself as much as he could. So yeah, was it every day that I was with Whitey Balser, first of all, no. I wasn't with Whitey every single day, no, because I was running the drugs. and he isn't going to be riding around the drug dealer,

head drug dealer and Salty, because then they'd say, oh, he really is a drug dealer. Right. Even though the feds had an idea, the DEA had an idea, and they knew, he still kept himself buffered, if you will,

because he had his buffers to do that. So he was working with the FBI, but the FBI is not the DEA. That is correct. He did not have an inside. track in the DEA. So it was the FBI who would let him know, John Connolly and the other guy, would let him know when the DEA was setting up on you guys. That is correct. Okay. And where with and and uh, because they did share information with the FBI, the DEA about the ongoing investigation

and they did share like where maybe a wiretap might be and stuff like that. And every single time, almost almost every single time, why do you find that wire? tap because we had devices to find wiretaps and he had that wiretap device and we all had the same one and almost every single time he found that wiretap and now the DEA started to be getting suspicious and saying how in the hell is this guy finding out about this shit right we want to know yeah it's like the um the scene in the departed where uh how the fuck did he know to turn the phones off right You know? That's my best Mark Wahlberg.

Like they started to really get suspicious. Well, talking about Mark, I worked on the movie with depotted with Mark at the time. Right, right. Yeah. But that's, so they, yeah, there's a lot of red flags going off around the FBI. But did they have any idea that it was this guy named John Connolly? Did they have any idea that it was him? Not in the beginning.

Not in the beginning. But they caught on and started catching on afterwards. But I think he never went down for that, or did he? Did he eventually, because he went to, you said he went to work for Edison after he retired. Okay. There was years later because supposedly there was a murder and he was a guy who was keeping up, look out for it. A murder involving Whitey? Whitey doing a murder, yes.

Wow. What year was that? Oh, man. Were you already in prison? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it had nothing to do with me. So Whitey was committing murder into his 60s and 70s.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he was 60s anyway. Oh, yeah. Really? Because he seemed in the book, you make him seem very restrained. Oh, he was. He was very restrained. But that doesn't mean he didn't kill anybody.

Well, of course. Of course he had bodies on him. But what were some of these homicides over do you suspect? Well, most of them were from the years back from the competition, the majority of them. Right. Is somebody that was a threat, if he will. But yeah, I mean. These other Irish guys?

Or I know he killed a few people like he like machine gunned to death a few people at the beginning to take over. But did he have to kill like Italians or anything like that? Or was it just people trying to push in on him on his business? Well, I wouldn't say he didn't actually kill the Italian. if you will, mob guys. But I will tell you this much. He was definitely prepared if he had to. He was definitely prepared.

Okay, so you're imprisoned by the 90s. 95 is when Whitey goes on the run. And then Connolly, John Connolly's retired, he's working for Edison because Whitey's brother gets him a job there. It looks like they just got away with it. Like he's just going to live out his days and he's never going to go down for it. How did he eventually,

It was a wire, so there was a wiretap implicating Whitey and a murder. How did that eventually take John? So what happened was eventually they had a shit case against them. They had some bookmakers, Jewish bookmakers, okay, Chico Krantz and stuff like that. They were from outside of Boston, the Newton area. And Georgie Kaufman, who was a great guy. These guys are dead now, but Georgie Kaufman, his son's a great guy. and he was solid Jewish guy.

But he was the guy who went all to the other Jewish guys and collected the money for Whitey and Stevie and stuff like that. And he used to own a garage years back called the Lancaster Garage. And they used to go down there and meet up and stuff like that. But that said, so that case came about years later because they couldn't get Whitey through me. I would never give Stevie a Whitey up at all.

And they get this case, it's a bullshit case, that they try to get these guys, you know, to roll on them, and so they could just get them into a situation. And there was another guy that was involved saying he was, saying he was shook down by Whitey and Stevie and had to pay and all that, which was hogwash. Now, mind you, I was in prison at the time when all this come out. And I got wind of it.

And because I knew one of the lead and farments and rats against them. Now, mind you, nobody knew Stevie and Whitey were rats at this time. Nobody. So anyhow, Whitey was underrun. Stevie was arrested. He's inside. And I contacted my friend, attorney. And I says, hey, get down here.

and I'm in New Jersey. Get down here. I need to see you. He come down and see me. He said, this guy here, this is what you got to follow. I got wind. From my own people that I had on the street, that you need to follow this lead,

this main rat against Whitey and Stevie. You need to follow it. So the lawyer did. He did his, he was like a bloodhound. He sniffed it out. And he went and he found, The guy had originally got indicted and had to go to trial for fraud, overbloting mortgages and stuff like that.

So there was a reason why this guy is cooperating with the government and saying whatever they want him to say. I found that out from my jail cell. Nobody else on the street knew that. nobody I found it out from my jail cell so how did that that's how loyal I am and

always will be no matter what no matter who I'm with how did that implicate John Connolly and Whitey though so at that time John Connolly wasn't implicated yet okay so when they went and they found out

that this guy had perjured himself on his own in his own trial on stand and he got caught and my guy had the recordings from the stenographer in court to prove him and show that the reason why he's a rat now is because he lied on the stand and that he had a choice. Either cooperate and say what we want you to say or you're going down. For this guy, was a family guy. He says,

whatever you need, whatever I can do. Okay. So they made this bullshit up. When they found this out, Stevie Flemy was inside. And my lawyer, he went to Stevie and said, I get great news. He said, I saw Red, I did my homework, sniffed it out. This guy, we got the evidence against him. This is why he became a rat. That case was blown up. I blew that case up.

I helped blow that case up. But in the meantime, they weren't done. The feds were not done in pushing and pushing. pushing and pushing. Finally, they get more charges. More people flip. Everybody starts to see, including Stevie Flemmy, that, hey, we're ready to go down here. And Stevie was the one to let the cat out of the bag about John Connolly. And there you go. And that's what it all began from there when Stevie let the cat out of the bag. What was Stevie facing? What kind of time was he facing life?

Oh, they were facing life. And they had bodies on them and racketeering and all that stuff. Yeah. Okay. And that's when, you know, these guys had a, these guys that were in there already, they had a decision to make for themselves. Hey, you know, Stevie's ready to trying to work a deal, trying to, you know, because he kept reaching out to John Connolly. Help me, help me, help me. Help me while he was in there.

Right. John Connolly said, my hands are tired. I can't do anything about it. Right. Right. So that's when the shit hit the fan. Right. And that's when all the other guys are there throughout the years that were implicated in bodies made a conscious decision for themselves to say, listen, let's beat him to the punch.

And let's put the onus on them because we didn't know they were rats all these years. That's what they said. So everybody. And I don't want to get out because he was a rat and when we were being loyal. Yeah. So basically that's what happened. And then that's when everyone else started cooperating and saying, okay, I'll make the deal. I'll cooperate.

And that's when all the shit started flowing. And everybody was like, you know, just it was a mess. And mind you, let's get back to earlier what I was saying. You said to me earlier, you asked me the question, and this all pertains to this right now. When you asked me the question earlier about, hey, you're going to. was that a demise of you going away and being set up and all that? No, it was not a demise for me. It worked out for me because, God forbid, had I still not gotten arrested or indicted,

who knows what would have happened with me then? Because I would have most likely been in more shit myself. For sure. And you, and these guys are flipping. Left or right. What do you think they would have done to me? Yeah. Yeah, you would have to tell you, I would have no matter what, I would have never flipped.

Yeah. I would have never flipped. That's just the way it goes. So, so thank God and Tony Cardonelli said that. He goes, this was a blessing in disguise that you are and have been indicted and you are doing your time. Right. Because, John, if you were home and nothing ever happened and you would, you would have been at the top up there, of course. Not just on the top, but the top up there.

right and who knows what would have happened then johnny so your drug case when you went away for 11 and a half 12 years that was actually smaller compared to this big riko case that they eventually put on the whole southy crew well like that sounds like that was the the big it wasn't just salty guys it was other guys that were what the what the hill game from years back yeah but they got decades worth of crimes yeah that is all pinned on that that was like your um i would compare I was only in a gen. Of like a four-year investigation, if you will, where these guys were decades. Yeah.

Yeah. So, and most of those guys flipped. And of course, you would tell on a cop, I would too. And, you know, I'm not you. So don't hold it against me. But if you were going to, if you had to give somebody up to save yourself, you would finger this FBI guy. Well, that's where me and you differ. and and and and but i think a lot of people you know from frank frank lucus too i want to write it on a

a marchion if you will fair enough uh but i think a lot of gangsters always look at the the law enforcement as the enemy even if they're working with them i'm going to say something there were gangsters that went away for life that could have told on anybody in law enforcement never know look at fat tony salerno right that was a debt sentence for fat tony salerno The fat Tony Salerno say, hey, I'm going to take the easy way up because, you know why? That no good cop over there that I've been paying all these years is a piece of shit. And he's a rat anyway. Let me give him up.

Let me less of my time. John Gardy, again, whether you like John Gardy or he didn't like his attitude or whatever, it has nothing to do. His attitude as a person has nothing to do about, you know, him not ratting. He chose not to do that. there were guys out there that chose not to ever, ever, ever do. They honored the code. And this is the problem we have today. And when these people are on these programs, your platform and as you as a journalist,

and I get that. And you need these people on so you can keep fueling the people because they love it. But when they come on, you know, it's not about me bashing rats. It's about asking the appropriate and real questions against a. rat. And the real question is this, okay, the most important thing is you never do is you're never at no matter what. But they do, don't they? It's kind of like the norm today, if you will, right? So it's a special unique thing when you have someone who will never do that no matter what. A, and B, when these guys come on a program, the real question should be asked. The solid question

should be asked. Put them to the test. put them to the test say hey listen you went into this life promising never to rat on your friends or anyone else anyone no matter what even if the person next

you cannot you still take your lumps and bumps as the man or the strong person you should be no matter what that's what that's that's the code but yet these guys always have an excuse

like one guy I rat on it He ratted on 12 people. And he says, well, hey, you know, they were going away anyway, you know, because of recordings. So, you know, I just added to it. So, because they were going to go away anyway. There was my way out. I was smarter than them.

No, you weren't smarter than them. You weren't. They honored something to a life that they chose to do, that they gave there. Just like when you go into the military, you choose to go into the military, you choose to be a solid soldier and never. Never, never quit on your fellow soldier. It's the same premises. Though I'm not putting a soldier in my category or gangsters category by any means, because they are better than gangsters.

Soldiers are better than gangsters. Because they serve our country every day. But it's a similarity, if you will, is what I'm putting it. Well, I think the point of the laws, you know, it's self-preservation, right? It's the human instinct. And when you look at life in prison, it's kind of the same thing as dying, right? Exactly. Getting killed in Vietnam.

Exactly. If you're likening it to a soldier. So the feds recognize this. And that's the reason that the RICO statutes were created and these mandatory minimum sentences because they get it. You just turn the screws on somebody. Oh, I've been there. I know. Yeah.

By the way, I've never been arrested in my life prior to getting indicted. Okay. and I was living high life as a young kid. Yeah, I might be tough, a good boxer and stuff or whatever, but I'd never been arrested. I've never really been arrested for anything like that by any means. But what I did, and I, what I did is I prep myself because I had an idea.

I had an idea that I would be indicted someday and that I would end up going away. So what I did as myself and as a fighter, I trained for it. I would visit guys in penitentiaries, go see them, visit them, go behind the walls and penitentiaries to get a feel of what it will be like if I end up here and what it's going to be like.

I also said to myself, before I crossed that threshold into that life at a young man, I also said to myself, if I cross this threshold into this life, am I going to be able to hold my water? And I said to myself, yes. And I lived up to that. I don't know how many people actually have ever said that in this life

and the way I just put it now. That's what I said to myself when I was a very young man. If I crossed this threshold into this life, will I be able to hold my water no matter what? So you knew that if you got arrested, you weren't going to rat. Like you knew that even before you got into crime. You were like, there's a good chance I can go down and I will not give anybody up. You said that to yourself? Absolutely. And you know why? Because I had a family member who said to myself who said to me and his brother ran around

Whitey, they ran around hijacking and stuff like that. Okay. And he said to me, I won't break the law. I said, okay. But can I ask you why? He said, yeah, because I could never do the time. So I learned at a young age when he said that to me, it stuck in my head, a bulb went off. And that's why I say that here today and what I thought years ago as a young man.

That's a real man. That's taking responsibility. Like, I know I can't do the time. I probably would rat. So I'm not even going to put myself in a position to where that could ever happen. But there are a lot of men out there that have done this, that have done what I've done. And even more, and they're doing time today. They're doing a lot of time.

Some of them are doing life. And you know what? I'm not saying what they did was right because what they've done as a criminal isn't right. But what they did do right is accept their responsibility. And that, my friend, is integrity no matter what way you want to slice it. No matter what way you want to slice it, that is integrity. And they don't have a voice because they're locked up inside.

But if I could be a voice for them now today. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, you're part of an era and a world that no longer exists. You know, 50 years from now, there will be no war on drugs. The whole system is coming apart, as it should, right? It's all, this is all a, the war on drugs and organized crime, that is all a product of the government making vice illegal. If drugs were legal, gambling was legal, prostitution was legal, there would never be a whitey bulger. there would never be any rackets and that's we see that now there's no there's no gambling racket there's no weed racket and so i think uh hopefully that won't even be something like putting a human

being in a cage for selling drugs will just it's so it's so uncivilized you know it's it hopefully we never this is the last time a podcast like this will have to exist because it's just we're moving towards a more evolved way to live as a species. Well, there's a new crime. It's not so much in a way of a new species and a way to live. It's a new crime. And that new crime is cybercrime. Sure.

That new crime is cybercrime now. And they're coming out in every which way to scam you and cyber you in every which way. And now you have AI coming along with that, which is everybody's saying, oh, AI is great. AI is great. but AI is, they're going to see how bad AI is going to be. So you're sitting here now, Johnny, and I'm sitting here now, but maybe we'll be sitting somewhere else at the same time. They'll have us sitting somewhere else with the AI.

Yeah, I don't know. I'm telling you, it's coming, brother. And that's more scary than just having someone sell drugs. I can tell you that right now. Oh, sure, sure. Now, so John Connolly gets, implicated in in this big case and does whitey also is that when it's discovered that whitey was also an informant at the same time once once uh stevie let the cat out of the bag yes

wow how did stevie go down whitey now had skipped town this was the year i believe it was like ninety five the whitey went on the run and was on the lamb for literally almost 30 years why did stevie not go in the run that was his right-hand man so he told stevie stevie got the word word, Stevie hesitated. Whitey never hesitated. And by the way, why he was already well prepared for this. Right. You said he had money accounts all over the world.

And they found those safety deposit boxes throughout the world. Right. Okay. And when they found him in his home, and this is even another crazy thing, when they found him, they found $800-something thousand in cash in the walls, along with guns and stuff. And then he had certain books. And, of course, my book Rap Bassad was here.

Oh, wow. Oh, and they raided his place in Santa Monica. Yes. Wow, that's crazy. Now, mind you, it gets even a little more crazier. I have a friend that's from California in Santa Monica who lives four blocks away from him. His name is Ken Koken. He was a producer on the movie,

suspects and the way of the gun. And I used to go out there to see him, and we walked by Whitey's apartment building where he lived to go get the same Starbucks store he went to that I went to. Could you imagine if I ran into him at that time? I can't really tell you why I, well, I know how I probably would have reacted because I used to have this occurring dream. and in that dream I you know dreams

a dreams you never know how to really figure them out sometimes but I just knew inside of me it was like something that I needed to get closure and the only closure for me was running into him and asking him why would he do that

why why would you become a rat why would you give me up knowing that they were coming why but that said you know, as a young kid, I didn't know anybody. He was smarter than me. He was, he's a well-seasoned, you can call him a well-seasoned,

Espinise CIA guy, if you will, amongst a kid from the neighborhood that's just kind of spreading his wings now. Yeah. That's how much manipulation had over me in that sense. I think you took it very personal, but you got to remember he was informing a work of with Connolly decades before you were even in the game. You were just a kid. But just remember, before he came out,

as I said earlier, and before it was known that he was a rat, I was still helping him in my prison cell to get the charges knocked off of him and Stevie Flemmy. Wow. Now, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a true street soldier. Yeah. And he knew the whole time. And he knew the whole time, yeah. He knew the whole time.

And so it's very likely that he was sitting in his apartment in Santa Monica as you and your friend were walking by. Absolutely, 100%. he was still there he was there wow did we know okay so he goes on the run stevie didn't get out and this is where the whole cat comes out of the bag uh what happens to john connolly by the way did they arrest him he ended up getting arrested and they implicated him saying he was a lookout for a murder

and did he go to prison he did he did he die in there or what was his sentence he went to prison he got he got a long sentence yeah and he was down in florida and he ended up getting out because he ended up contacted cancer. He's living in Florida now with cancer. I don't know. I guess he's cancer-free. Now, who knows? I don't know. But yeah, that's where he's living now and he's lucky that he was able to get out. That's for sure. Right. Because he had a long sentence. Yeah, he was, I'm sure, just disgrace. And all those boss and guys, all those guys went down and testified against them. How did you find closure? So again, there you go. You hit the nail in the head. So, so I had this

reoccurring dream and meeting him in New York. I used to drive me part of my French, but it drove me fucking nuts all the time. Because I, when I lived, when I dreamt it, I meant it. And I'm walking in New York and holy behold, there's Whitey. And I grab him, I pull him into a doorway of a building. And I said, why? Why the fuck would you ever do that? And he said to me, I was trying to protect you. And it's unbeknown, to me because it's a dream. And at that moment, I grab him by the back of his head and his jaw, and I snap his neck. And I kill him on the spot. That's great. You never ran into him because you might have done that. And then you'd be locked up again. And what closure could you have

gotten? I mean, the real answer is, why'd you do it? Well, the answer is better you than me. you know like that's it's i quote the best movie quote ever that sums up the streets is Sean Penn and Carlito's way when he's talking to Carlito and he's like your fucking world's this big and the only rule is save your own ass and that is unfortunately where most of the gangsters operate from no one amongst these right and that's where that comes from you know that age old saying so how did you find closure. Have you found closure in your life? I mean, you're living a good life now. You got a family, you got a beautiful wife. Like, you got to, you know. You answered it. There you go. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, it's important. How long did it take you after you got out of prison to get over the old days and to go straight? Um, well, that's funny you ask because as soon as I came home, um, I had already, after all that has taken place and I had a long time to think about what had happened. I knew they'd be waiting for me. I knew that the feds would be waiting for me, saying Red's going to come home. He's going to get involved again and he's going to try to be a top dog. Well, guess what? They had it all wrong.

They don't know me. I was never, ever, ever going to be a feather in another rat's hat or law enforcement's hat or a stepping stone for a rat or another FBI agent, a DEA agent, or state trooper who any law enforcement. I would never, ever, ever, ever be another stepping stone for them ever again. I'm a stepping stone. I was a stepping stone, unfortunately, for a rat to get out of trouble. I was a stepping stone for a rat, for law enforcement to spread their wings and say, see, I did my job. I did it great.

Never again. You were kind of a pawn, unfortunately. And that's, unfortunately, that's what happens, even if you're a boss. Yeah. It doesn't matter. You become a pawn, even as a boss. It doesn't matter what level you are. You actually, in the end, become a pawn for rats and law enforcement.

Mm-hmm. and kids need to know that out there. People need to know that out there. That the deck is stacked against you. I don't give a shit what they say today. That decked, as you know it, and you said it already, that the tide is changing, that that deck is stacked against you. You might think you can win.

You might think that you can win even a little bit here and there. But there's going to be that day that that knock on the door and those cups are coming, unfortunately. got to do is win once. That's the shitty thing about the game is you can win for years. Listen. You got away with selling drugs many thousands and thousands of times. And that's just that one time you don't get away with it. What was the evidence for people should read the books so they can, you know, get the details of all of what they had in your case. Well, for the first question is, do you think you actually would have been safer, not going with Whitey's crew?

or did you think that was even an option? Like if you had told Billy Shea that day, nah, I got my own connect, I got my own customers. Do you think they would have come for you? Like, turn it into a problem? I don't think they would have. I think Whitey would have. So he would have given you one last warning and then...

I think Whitey would have came and it would have said, this is what you need to do. This is the choice you have. Hmm. Yeah. So I think in that sense, I think I made the right choice, seeing that I was still not going to give up the life. Were you prepared to, like, defend yourself against these guys? Like, did you have a gun? Were you ready to kill to protect your business?

I'm a natural bomb fighter, so. Yeah, you never had a piece, though. Did you carry a gun? Yeah, when I got indicted, I had guns and plenty of bullets that they got me with. Yeah. As a guy who's a fighter grew up boxing and preparing, as I said, for the for the worst, I was always, always ready. I was ready, always. Even in the same thing in prison, you know, something goes wrong in prison, you're going to be ready. Yeah. And I've had those instances too. Yeah. If Whitey was getting information from the FBI and John Connolly about the actions of the DEA, why did you still? get arrested? Why did you still go down?

Because it was a DEA operation, not an FBI operation. And they gave a shit about the FBI. Matter of fact, they didn't like the FBI after all that. They hated the FBI after that. Oh, I see. So they had no jurisdiction over the DEA. The DEA, as they said, they went to the top and said, we're going after these guys, we're targeting these guys, and we're going to get them. The FBI couldn't say, oh, they were in farming some with us. You can't touch them. So Connolly didn't even really know about the DEA moving on you guys. Oh, he did.

And he was given the information to Whitey. Absolutely. So then could Whitey is... To keep Whitey out of getting caught. And Whitey didn't tell you? Wow. He put me in that position to take the heat because he knew I could. That's fucked up.

It is what it is. You live and you learn. What kind of intel? kind of evidence did they have on you in this case like controlled buys wire taps like what was some of the things that they had on you they had um they had numerous amounts of wire taps numerous amounts they didn't catch much uh cocaine at all at all i was moving things when i knew things were going happening i was moving those stashes i mean kilos and kilos i was moving them moving them moving them moving them so they couldn't get them i mean i i dress up at night and

and, you know, come out in the evening, because, like Whitey used to say, free camouflage is nighttime. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so there were a lot of things that I learned from Whitey that helped me advance in certain ways. But he played the game well.

He played both sides. And, you know, he really did. And, but yeah, they never caught me with any cocaine, if you will, I mean, it was a total conspiracy charges. But I had so much. tapes and stuff like that against me. And then they had some guys from Florida that they got a hold of that I was getting the stuff from.

And one guy who I stopped getting stuff from, he was already in jail. He heard about me getting indicted. He called him down there to give him a, you know, a report on me. And they didn't even know him at that time, but he was trying to use me to get out. Yeah. But they had so much evidence against me with the tapes and stuff like that. That was just a matter of time. So were you dealing on those tapes?

Were you dealing with like undercover agents? Like were you selling to undercoverers? One of my guys was. Oh, fuck. And I told him, he came to me. He says, hey, I got a studist. Oh, yeah, the studist. They fly all over the place.

Stutis, yeah. And pilots, too. Pilots and a student. I had smoke, snort and cocaine and flying. I'm saying to myself, are you kidding me? Like, I hate going on a plane as it is now. So that said, so we had, that's how they operated these two agents. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And it was a girl named, involved called Bonnie Alexander. Yeah. Did that blow your mind reading the discovery or like this broad was a fucking fed the whole time? They wanted to get to me. They wanted to be introduced to me through this guy. And now this guy was like, he used to drive up and be a driver for me, He's bringing the kilos up from flotter and stuff.

So I said, do you know these people? Do you know where they come from? Do you know them personally? Oh, I was introduced by this guy. You were introduced by this guy. He didn't want to pay you one time, right? He didn't want to pay you, right? Am I not asking you the right question?

Am I, if I'm not mistaken? He goes, no, he didn't want to pay me? I said, and I went down and I told the guy he had to fucking pay you, didn't I? And then where did he go? He wasn't around no more after that. But yet you still had these people that he said he was going to make it up to you. So we gave you these people to make business off of. Is that what you're telling me?

I questioned him at the time about it. He goes, yeah, because I was very insulated too. I mean, I took chances, but I was insulated too. Right. So he said, yeah. I goes, do me a favor. End it with these people. Do yourself a favor.

End it with these people. But it was too late. They had already infiltrated because he got greedy. And in this game and any of any of this life, that's what takes you down, just like it took Whitey down and Stevie down, greed. Just like it took John Connolly down, greed. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're supervising all these distributors, and there some of them are dealing with undercovers.

And then the feds traced them back to you. Yeah. Fuck, dude. What do you do about that in the 90s? Like, this is before you could use, like, encrypted phones and things like that. You're just using the house phone, I guess. Like, how do you... Well, we had beepers then.

Yeah. So, you know, a number will come up in a beeper. I call a phone. It could be a cell phone, not a cell phone. A pay phone. Because there was pay phones back then, you know. Yeah, they're blacky. You know, we had code names and stuff like that, you know.

Yeah. But they still were able to pin it. on you. Well, what they do is if they hear these tapes and you'll say, yeah, it's Billy, I need, can you, can you, I'm looking for six subs or whatever, you know,

you know, whatever they might have said at the time. Like, I had a guy who was innocent on my case. He was fucking innocent. I had him. I called him one day. He says, hey, buddy, can you get down to the dry cleaners in Southie and get me my, I get a silver suit down there on a white shirt.

and stuff like that and pick it up for me because I'm going to need that. I can't get there right now. Could you do that for me, pal? He goes, yeah, Johnny, sure, no problem. He goes down and he does it, gets me my suit because I was going out that night to dinner and stuff. You know, they indicted him with all that bullshit. And they said it was guns and cocaine, silver and white. Oh, yeah, they'll have the DEA agents or FBI agents get on and say,

I've been doing this for 40 years, and this is cold for this, and this is cold for that. And they just lie. And they, whether it's true or not, whether it's true or not. Yeah. I mean, that was, that was actually true for this guy. Right. He did 18 months. For picking up your dry cleaning.

For picking up my fucking dry cleaning. Yeah, what we're finding out now within, in the wake of like everything that's happened with Trump and, you know, these very politically motivated indictments and of politicians by the DOJ. We're finding out that the feds not only lie, they coordinate their lies and sometimes are in on it with federal judges. So if they do that to a politician, imagine what they'll do to drug dealers. You know, they will make sure you go to prison. They've been doing a few years. Yeah. And it's funny because gangsters have been knowing this for half a century.

Yes, they have. And now that it's become political, you know, the lay person, the lay people are now starting to see, oh, wow, yeah. The government is like incredibly corrupt. So when I was going through my discovery at the time, they would have a, I had a book and all the recordings and I'd be reading. I'm going, hmm, okay, this is, this recording. This is supposedly what I always said in the transcript.

But I'm going to myself, are you sure I said this? So what do I got to do? I got to go to the tape. I got to listen to the tape and I got to try to match that up. And then I go, that's not what I fucking said. they put anything in there that they want. That's the thing about these people. They do whatever they want.

And you didn't, you almost didn't get bail. You were like fighting your case to get bail. One year. That's unheard of. Crazy. My lawyer at the time says your, your bail hearing is longer than any trial I ever had in my life. Yeah.

Yeah. Everybody else in the organization got bail. And you were in for, Fort Dix, I believe. Or no, you were in. Danbury, Connecticut. Danbury, a 24-year-old, you know, getting treated like a kingpin. Oh, I was.

It was an 848. Yeah. Continuing a criminal enterprise. So they- 20 to life. Yeah. And my name was up on the top of the indictment. Yeah, of course.

You know, that's what an 848 is. And they throw all this paperwork at you. Yeah, and it's to break your will. So I went to my lawyer at the time, 848. How many are you going to have? Well, you have to have three or more men. or four more men underneath you and they have to be this and that.

I'm reading a law on it. So I say, wow, I didn't have it. He says, Johnny, I've seen 848s that were, that sold grams, that they used it for gram cases, never mind kilo cases. I said, well, that's the end of me asking you about that question ever again. Wow. They use that, they use these tools in any way they can. whether they're justifiable or not.

How many people did you actually have working for you, though? When I get indicted, there was 51 people. I think that hits the burden of proof. They were all connected back to me. Wow. It literally went Whitey Bulger, Shea, Billy Shea, and then you. And then the whole organization underneath. That's wild.

Whitey, Stevie, Billy Shea, and then Red Shea was underneath because he was the youngest kid. He was a guy who was bringing it all in. And then when Billy went away, Billy was told to leave because they came to me because I told you Billy had the unique idea and let me keep my customers. But what Billy wanted was Billy, and this set me up with Whitey in this sense. Billy wanted me to take some of the Coke from the kilos that we were getting and sell it to my customers and then give him that profit. Trying to cut Whitey out.

Cut everybody out. So I looked at it and I went, oh, I don't like that. That's not how I operate. So I went to a friend of mine and I said to him, told him what was happening, I confident he said, he said, he's the boss, ain't he? I said, yeah. He goes, you know it's not going to look good. You know, if something goes down,

he told him if you do that, you're going to weaken the product. He said, yeah, but he's the boss. He's telling you to do it, right? I said, yeah. So somebody said, just tell him to go talk to the boss about it and talk to you about it. Let him handle it because he's the boss. Okay, yeah, it makes sense, right?

They came to me. He said, hey, the cocaine's weak. The guy's come around. The week, what's going on? You know, it's not the same no more. I said, oh, here we go. I knew it was coming. I said, go talk to the boss.

Don't talk to me. Well, he said that maybe you. No, no, no, I don't care what he fucking said. Go talk to the boss and ask him about it. Now, he could easily said, oh, it's just a bad batch that we got. You know, we'll talk to red. make sure he's testing it better or something. He could have said that.

He could have built me out. No, he was trying to fucking send me down the fucking drain, too. But guess what? Didn't happen to him. Because now they went back to Whitey, these guys. They went over his head. And they said the Whitey, they told Whitey with the story. And Whitey said, I know both characters well.

I know how Billy Shea is. And I know Red. He's an eager kid. He wants to come up. He's not going to do something. He's loyal in that sense. He said, I don't believe the kid's doing it. I don't think it was his idea.

So, holy behold, Billy Shea gets a call because he was in Florida. Gets the call and he says, why do he wants, you need to come back. Why do he wants to see you? Is there a problem? Why is the way you want to see me now? What's going on? Just that why do he wants to see you? Do you know what a coincidence that that was, that does?

day when he came back from Florida. I said to myself, well, I don't know what's going to happen, but I knew that he was getting called back. I said to myself, yeah, maybe I'll leave town a little bit, because I had no idea what's going to happen. But at least if I left town, I wasn't there, right? So I took off to Canada. I went to Montreal.

And I was in the airport. Holy behold, who do I see just getting off the fucking plane, but Billy Shea? He sees me in a panic. Red, red. I said, yeah, what's up, Bill? How you doing? I don't say a word, because I knew he was trying to fucking sink me. He says, why he called? He wants to see me. Do you know anything about this? I said, no, I don't.

Fuck, he says, all right. I said, I'm out of here. I'm going to Canada. See you later. Went down my plan, went to Canada. Why did you get a hold of him? Talked him about it and told him, the only reason I'm not killing you,

and I know this, is because you made me a lot of money. Made me a lot of money. You said, what I'm going to do, I'm going to tell you right now, you're going back to fly. And you're going to fucking stay there. And that's what happened.

Wow. And that's how you became. And that's when I became the boss. Wow. It was surprised me when I read that part of the book that Whitey didn't clip him. Like it seems like Whitey had some. I think he already knew. He had an idea about the feds.

And he figured this is a great opportunity because it's falling in my lap. And I can put this young kid into this position instead of having that old of me. that I think maybe if push comes a shove, he'll give me up. Right. I'm surprised. It's just things fell into place for him so well at that time. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. And I thought maybe it's too, if I kill this guy, it'll bring too much heat down. It'd be too much heat, yes. Right. Because we were all together. Did Whitey have a habit? Because, you know, the Italian mafia is famous for taking care of their own, killing their own people, right?

right, you know, whether people be, you know, rats or betraying people or even stealing money. Like, this is basically theft. Did Whitey have a habit of doing that or was he pretty diplomatic? Did he use violence amongst his own organization as like a last resort? Well, I would say this. Whitey wasn't stupid by any means. You know, we're talking about a very calculating and an individual. He put a percentage on something, and that's what he went with.

Now, he's going to know that he knows right well. If you tell him, well, yeah, I'm averaging, let's say, a hundred grand a month. All right, then I'm going to take this. He already knows you make him more than that. He's not stupid. He already knows you're making more than that. How much were you kicking up to him after you took Billy's place? He was getting 20%.

of all the profit off of every load weekly uh every two weeks he'd get a he they'd get an envelope would you deliver it to him i would deliver it to him or i'd deliver it to kevin weeks yeah and what was an average envelope like oh it was a nice nice nice you know you know yellow envelope if you will manela however you call them yeah how much money well 20 grand or, you know, if I said it was $100,000 a week or whatever, that's what I got, his 20 grand. And was it $100 or were you? Well, you know, I wasn't telling the truth.

So you weren't completely honorable. Well, I was doing a legwork. I was doing all the risk. I mean, hello. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And he knew that.

He knew. He knew. He knew that. Well, that's why I'm so fascinated by mafia bosses that can, get people to just kick up to them that are taking all the risk, are very dangerous, capable of killing. Like, what is the loyalty to Whitey? That's how they started, though, also.

They had to work their way up to get to where they were, right? So they had to do the same thing. Right. And then when they made it to that plateau, that platform, then they didn't, you know, they were able to do exactly what that guy did from when they were there prior to them. So Whitey, when he, by the time he went on the run, he had millions stashed. Man's. All over the world.

Where were some of the places they were saying he was hiding out? They thought Island. Where? Island. Oh, yeah. They looked everywhere. England. There was spot.

I see, I seen Whitey Bulger in England. Of course, he wasn't in England, as we know now. But yeah, they looked everywhere. Yeah. I wonder, do they speculate how long he was in California for before he finally got arrested? That's, uh, I would say he was there at least, at least eight years or so. Yeah. Yeah, he was, um, as a matter of fact, when he was on the run, he was driving. He almost got pulled over. And, um, and I believe it was Louisiana or somewhere. Yeah.

And it was a very close call for him. at that time. Yeah, and he had disguises and stuff. Yeah, he was able to, you know, he had a mustache and glasses and the hat and all that, yeah. And the lady he was with the whole time. Catherine, Greg, yeah. Did you know Catherine? Did you ever meet her?

I didn't know her personally, but I know who she was from family coming in Southie. They lived in, uh, outside of Southie and Quincy and, uh, in, uh, Squanimum area. And, um, I lived out there, too in a nice townhouse and everything else. and I lived in the same area where he used to live or was living and then moved out. And then I lived in another building in that area. And I used to do a lot of running. I was a good runner at the time. And I'd run from that area because it's Quincy Mass.

And I'd run over the bridge and then into Southie and all that. I'd run seven, eight miles easy on that run. Yeah, it was at least eight-mile run. Sometimes I'd even run even further. there would be a 12-mile run. Yeah, and Whitey was like that too. And then he'd be coming out because Whitey didn't come out until later on in the evening in the afternoon and then went down to the store of a base, if you will.

And I'd be out. I'd be running at that time, you know, and I'd be running. He walked by and he'd just give me a little wave. And he'd be like, he used to call me the cheetah because I was so fast, you know. I mean, I'd be, I was the type of guy. I was running in blizzards. When it was a blizzard in Boston, I'd go out and put on my boots and run in that blizzard.

And I'd be the only guy, nutcase out there, running around the park in my boots in a blizzard. Yeah, you were dedicated. You were a really, really dedicated athlete, and I think a lot of that transferred into your criminal. Yeah, because I always wanted to stay up and stay in shape and be ready for whatever. possibility came my way. Yeah, the departed, you know, the character of Jack Nicholson,

of Whitey, played by Jack Nicholson, they portray him as like this kind of like gluttonous cokehead kind of guy. He was not like that. Close. No, no. That was like an add-on, if you will. And, um, I mean, he did have multiple girlfriends, but I think that was the extent of his vice, if you want to call it that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I don't even think he drank, really. He did drink. He loved wine. He loved good wine. Right. He did. He splurged at times. But when he did that, he went to, like, high-end places, and he did it low-key. And that's why he used to say to me, you do the things, go out of town and have a good time.

Don't do it here so everybody can see you. Right. Yeah, yeah. His crew wasn't a bunch of, like, Irish drunks. like they had to be really careful around him to not be belliger. Yeah, he didn't like anybody that was like that. He liked them to be disciplined. That is correct. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people are fascinated by Whitey.

I mean, he was the longest, I think he was the mafia guy with the longest time on the lamb. Yeah, he was out for 16 years on the lamb. I wouldn't say he was the longest because I believe throughout the world there were guys are even longer than him. I know so. But that said, he had a, he had a good run, especially going in his 80s, into his 80s. Game's over at that time. Right.

I mean, no offense to people in their 80s, but Jesus Christ, I make it to 80, even 80 years of age, I'll be happy. Yeah. And he was like 85 when they arrested him or something? Yeah. It was up there. It was, yeah, he was. Yeah, he was up there.

He was close to my mom's age at the time. My mom was just a little older than he was. Yeah. Did he outlive his brother, Billy? No. No, Billy's still alive. Wow.

And his brother, Jackie, still alive. Do they have any comments in the community about their brother being this mafia boss, also an informant? They don't really indulge in it, if you will. Yeah. You know, I think they rather like to say it is what it is.

Let's keep it that way. Now, when he was arrested, did he have any support within the community? Or was he completely persona non grata in the eyes of the Southie community? He had support until they found out there was a rat. Why do he had support? Right. But they knew he was a rat for 20 years while he was on the lamb. So did he have any sympathy?

When he finally was arrested, what was that, like 2012 or something? I don't think there was any sympathy. There was no sympathy, right? No. He met his demise. He met his demise in federal prison. And I think he wanted that. I think he wanted to be killed because he was, he hated being called a rat.

He hated it. It drove him nuts. But what? Did you don't think he considered himself a rat? He didn't, no. Why? Because he, I have no, I mean, that's a question that you'd have to ask him, you know? I mean, to be honest with you, but, but, but he always thought himself as a strong, solid guy, you know, but, and maybe he just thought he played the game better than anybody else.

Maybe that was his mindset. Right. But, but that said, he hated it when he was called a rat, hated it. Yeah. Hated it. Well, I've talked to people at the top. you know, in just the course of doing this podcast. And I think when you get to a certain level,

just like I brought up with the Mexican narco kingpins, they don't consider that ratting. And I think it is. But I think there's a delusion that you get when you're that powerful for that long that you're like, oh, no, no, no, I'm at a different level to where this is just chess. So, so that said, I think he felt as that he was part of the FBI, some, you know, like an agent himself, if you will, in that sense, you know, psychologically.

But, you know, when he, when he got indicted, before he got indicted, when we got indicted, I did with the 51 people, it was in the paper that Monday. We got to, you know, arrested on a Friday. We were in for the weekend. And then the Boston Herald front page was why these. a canary because he didn't get indicted with everybody, right? But hold on. I had already known what they were going to say because what he told me.

He said they're going to bash me. They're going to say this or that about me. Only reason is because they can't get to me. They can't get to me. And the reason why they can't get to him is because the guy's like you, Johnny. You won't give me up. You won't say anything. So what they're due now is because they can't get to me.

They'll try to disparage my reputation. so somebody will flip, which made sense. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Which made sense. So that Monday in the paper, it come out, he was a canary because he didn't get indicted with us.

It was John Morris, the FBI agent, who was crooked because he was taking money from Whitey and Stevie in bottles of cases, a bottle of wine, and paying trips or him and his wife, vacationing. He was the one, he was so scared, he's the one who dropped the dime, hoping that somebody would have whacked. Right. Kill them. Then he would have been off the hook, okay, it's all gone now, you know?

Right. Well, why do you get wind that it was him? And he called him on the phone. And he says, listen, you motherfucker. You say, I got all the goods on you. Don't be fucking doing that ever again. I'd be thinking that you're fucking cute. Wow.

Oh, yeah. He had evidence on a lot of offense. Oh, yeah. Holy shit. Yep. He was, it's like his life after he became the boss. Morris had to go out as a disgraced FBI agent, along with John Connolly. Yeah.

Did Morris ever do any time? No. No. Because he cooperated beforehand. Right. It's like Whitey was preparing for that moment. for decades. It's like he was preparing since he became a boss in the 60s.

Now you have to realize not only was whitey intelligent, but he came from an intelligent family, highly intelligent family. Billy Bulger was a triple eagle, Boston high, Boston College, and Boston law. He was a lawyer. And he was good at it. Well, you think it was then? What was he, he could have been, you know, he could have followed that same path.

Why did he choose the streets? Was he a sociopath? Sometimes I thought so I could tell you that, as tough as guy I was and stuff like that, when he used to fly off the handle, holy shit. Yeah. I thought I was bad when I'd fly off the handle. Yeah. He was that type of guy that, like, he took her to another level.

And the way he was able to just lie to the people he so-called cared about and, yeah. He was able to think on his feet so quickly, and he had it down pat. Yeah. Wow. So it's like when I knew that all this investigation was going on, I said, hey, why don't, why don't I take a step back? Why don't you just take a step back and let the heat lie down a little bit here with the feds? We can always open up shop again because if there's nothing to be had, then maybe it'll die. I didn't know how extensive they had or what they had.

But I figured, let's close shop for a little bit here. Let them keep coming, whatever they want, and there's nothing going on. And I said, and I'll go back to boxing. I'll go back to boxing. I'll go back fighting pro again and stuff because I was training every day anyway. And that was my first love, right? And I had a lot of money to support myself to do that. I didn't have to rely on anybody or an eight-hour job that I'd have to bust my balls out.

and be tired to go train at the same time. So I said, I'll just go back to boxing for a while. And he says, oh, you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that, Red. I said, why? He said, because boxing is the dumb fucking niggas. That's exactly what he said to me. Not that time I looked at him and I went,

something doesn't add up. Even at such a young age, I knew something didn't add up. My antennas after that were like this. Did I know? Did I feel something? Absolutely. But I didn't like what he said to me.

And I just said to myself, now I look back at it. Hindsight's 2020, right? And I see all these parallels, all these things that I went through of different scenarios, this, this, this, this. Now I understand why he said and did these things. Why did he want you to stay in the game? Because he wanted me to take the fall. Because he knew you weren't going to give him up. He knew I wasn't going to give him up.

But if you guys got out of the game, there would be no fall to be had in the first place, right? Exactly. But maybe he knew more. Maybe he knew the extent of the operation was too late. Right. Was too late. Wow. See, he said, no, he's got, you got to go.

I got to get this kid to go all the way now. That's why he talked to me like, father figure, I don't. I want to see you get beat up, and I don't want to see his brains get smashed in. And plus, he says to me, oh, and plus, you'll be on TV. Everybody will recognize you. You don't want to be on TV. Yeah. He used anything that he could at that time to make sure he can convince the young guy not to back our way.

He manipulated everyone, lied to everyone. Everyone. Did he care about anyone? I guess his girlfriend who went on the run with him. But he needed her too, you know. He manipulated everyone. Yeah. There wasn't anyone he didn't manipulate.

Yeah. Other than his brother. Billy. Why? Because Billy wouldn't have it. He wouldn't have it and he couldn't do that to his brother. Yeah. But he could do it to anyone else, anyone.

I wonder, did Billy know where he was when he was on the run? Was there any evidence that those two had communications? Probably not, right? Because you know the feds are listening. Exactly. That would be the first. But I would say this. Somehow or some way, yes, there was some type of open line of communication.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, okay. Walk us through how he met his demise. So his, as we kind of know from if you pay attention to that story, his girlfriend was like yapping to a fucking neighbor, right? Or something like that?

Yeah, but not any of that. But they had pitches to her. and they put it into because she was a beautician and they put her picture picture out there sketch out there and she went into to the hair salon where they had possibly heard something and somebody recognized her and that's where it all began wow i followed her back to the apartment they started they went and they looked and searched and everything and said well i think we got them Hmm. And so they arrest him. So when they arrested him, what they did is they called the manager.

And they said of the manager, have this guy come out of that. Tell him that you need to see him. Have him come out of the house. Because they didn't want to go through the door if they didn't have to. So they called the manager, man says, oh, there's a problem with the storage down here. He goes, really? Oh, right. Let me come down to see.

Bang. Yeah. What a run. And so they, he spends a couple of years fighting his case. Fight in his case. I was, they had me on the, uh, uh, witness, uh, to go in and testify. Yeah. Now, I had never talked to anybody, never would.

Yeah. But they did have me in there, on there. So if they called me and I didn't cooperate, I could have contempt to court, and I would have end up going away again. So were you prepared? prepared for that? Did you know? So what I did, I was, I went on CNN, all these interviews on CNN and talked about I would never rat. I wouldn't do it ever, ever, ever. But let me just say one thing, because I'm good at poker. And I should have, you know, played more poker on my day,

and maybe, and the casino instead of doing what I did. But that's besides the point. I said to, I said to them on the interviews, I'd say, but if I made the choice to testify, I don't think it would be good for the government or Whitey Bulge's team either. I said that. Wow. Because it was a poker play.

Yeah. A national television. Was that a bluff? It was. And I'm so glad. I was so glad I was like saying, It worked. Put all the chips in.

Yeah. Here's my hand. And meanwhile, you got the winning hand. I have nothing. Yeah. And so I call my attorney, Tony Connelly. I said, Tony, I hear him on the witness list. And mind you, I'm working construction at this time.

Down on the waterfront. And I used to watch Whitey be escorted in in the morning to go to the courthouse as I'm on the construction site. Are you kidding me? I kid you not. Whitey in the flesh. Yes. So that said, I called my attorney Tony Cotonelli, and I says, hey, Tony, I hear my name is on the fucking list. He said, hold on.

He calls the head guy, prosecutor. He said, you don't need Johnny. You got enough guys. You got enough people. You don't need him. And by the way, you don't know what Johnny's going to say. Johnny's, Johnny's, he's his own guy. He's like a maverick.

You don't know what he's going to say. He could throw a wrench into your wheels. You have your guys that know and will say what you want already. And they say, you're right, Tony. So I was never called to testify. But that's when Billy Shea came in and testified and talked about the recruitment of Red Shea of myself. And what I had and how. they recruited me and you know and all that and um and you know how how i was a maverick and had you know

i had the balls to do these things on my own and um and was billy shea in prison at the time or had he gotten out no he was down a flower oh okay yeah oh did he ever get locked up he never got locked up wow because he talked right away right he never talked because he was never indicted on that particularly case. Wow. How Craig, it's because Whitey ran him out of the business, he dodged all that shit. Crazy. Crazy. So obviously, you know, he's, Whitey is done. There's just decades of evidence and tons of witnesses that had him on murders, obviously racketeering, drug trafficking. Everything. It all come out in the end. It all come out in the end. It usually does. They dug up like, corpses yeah right yep yeah insane like under like the Dorchester fucking yeah

yeah no what happened was is the the the when the water went out low tide yeah they dug and then drop the body and left and that was those bodies are there from years you know um what i mean what a i mean you know it's pretty intelligent thing to do i mean if you think about it right who's ever going to look for a body there i mean you know You know? And then they were on the side of the highway. And one of the guys, his name was Tommy King. And he knew he was there.

It was kind of like why didn't like him. He was kind of like a rival from Southie. And he'd ride by on the highway coming from his house or wherever. And he'd wave and he'd say, hello. Hey, he said a little Tommy. He'd make a joke about it. Say a little Tommy as you was driving by. Because that's where they buried Tommy.

That's where they buried Tommy. Yeah. And it's so crazy that Whitey was a millionaire boss and still doing murders himself. So he's done. He gets, did they ever get a chance to sentence him? Oh, yeah. He got sentenced. He got sentenced for all the bodies and then 18 of them anyway. 18 bodies. Yeah. And when he was mostly in it were those innocents or like what I never liked about Whitey. I don't like murder period. But what I never liked about Whitey was that I knew he killed a lot of. innocent people whereas I was I don't think the Italian mafia did as much of that where do you do know about those 18 bodies like was that mostly civilians or was that mostly no there were guys from the neighborhood that were involved you know and there was solid guys that he killed guys that would

never rat just like me right those guys he killed that would never rat and that's that in the end that that's that's that's a real dagger you know because you know that those guys they did time before like himself, but they would never rat. Yeah. What a psycho. So anyways, what goes around, comes around, because then he's at where USP Atlanta? Where did it go down? The murder.

His murder. Hazleton. It's in like West Virginia, I believe. That's a rough joint. And he was in Florida prior to that. And why I say, I believe he won't cause his own demise because he wanted it. because he hated being called a rat. In my opinion, he caused so much trouble in Florida at that penitentiary,

I believe it was Coleman. And he had an art teacher down there. He was trying to do paintings and stuff like that. And he had another kid that he was whatever that was down there. And I'm saying myself, these guys know that he's a rat, but yet they're still associating themselves with him. How come? Well, maybe.

He was sending him money, yes, absolutely. But also, it was only a matter of time because he caused so much trouble. And he liked being called a rat that they would stick him in the hole a lot. And when he was in the hole, I guess a female god came by. and what he'd do is he jerk off in front of the female guy just to cause a problem for her. You know, it's like, hey, fuck you. Now, I get that mentality

if you're a stand-up guy. I do. So he caused so much problem, they said, okay, we're going to ship him. Ship him out. They gave him what he wanted. It wasn't long before he got to where he was. It wasn't long.

that it went in there and executed him. Was it a cellmate? No. No, it was guys in that prison, and it was within hours. Right. He got there, he was on the main line, which is crazy.

Now, mind you, this one guy that took all the heat, um, he's, he's a guy who would never rat, never rat. He's, doing life, double life. And soon as he's seen Whitey Balja,

there was an opportunity. He didn't care. I'm doing double life. What's it mean to me? He took the full brunt of it, too. The heat for it for it. All right. Because it was multiple people involved, I think. Three of them that they indicted him. And he's the only one that went down. He's, well, they did get indicted. They get one kid's out. But

But suppose he was a lookout. But no, he took the full brunt of everything. Wow. He didn't care. Right. Because he's doing double life anyway. Yeah. I'm surprised it took him that long to get killed, you know,

especially if he's on the main line. He's that infamous. And mind you, he was frail at the time. He was in a wheelchair. From what the reports say, they dug his eyes out and tried to cut his tongue out, too. Yeah, I don't even think they stabbed him. They, like, beat him.

with a lock and a sock. Yeah, stabbing would have been too easy, huh? He went out a rat. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And when I talk about my dream and how I wanted to, you know, I snap his neck. Now people comment, well, he's there. That one guy already got him red. Did you feel some kind of closure when you found out about it?

I thought at the time I said to myself, how in the world that the feds, knowing he's a, a mob boss of that of that size, an Irish mob boss that was a rat, a big rat. Right. How did they even put him into that type of situation? Interesting, isn't it? Knowing that these guys that they're putting him in with are solid guys that accepted their responsibility that are doing life. They gave their life to this. How did they put him and why? Well, because they're corrupt and they're vindictive. He was causing all those problems at Coleman.

He was jerking off in front of female guards talking shit. Nobody liked him to begin with because he is a rat bastard and he's got bad paperwork. He's not supposed to be walking the mainline, period. So I think somebody with power said, you know what? There's some pipe hitters at Hazleton. Ship him over there. Give him what he wants. Exactly.

Exactly. And kind of what everybody wanted, you know? Like, I have literally zero affiliation with any of it. I just grew up knowing about this guy and studying him. And when he got his, I was like, good. That's, there's some justice. Oh, 100%. But did you feel any kind of like, I know this was years after you were out of life and out of prison.

Did you feel some kind of relief or like, how did you feel when you got killed? I actually was upset. Why? Because I wasn't the one who was able to do it. Yeah, but you believe in the afterlife. I do. I do. And I spoke about that, the afterlife.

Yeah. You know, you're a Catholic guy. I'm a Catholic guy. Killing is immortal sin. So if you had killed him, you might not make it into the afterlife. Well, these are things that I still deal with. Mm. Wow.

John Shea, I like you very much. I want to thank you for having me on. Your platform is huge. And I can't ask you anymore and thanking you anymore. You're awesome on what you do. But please, when you have these informants on, because I know they'll be on, I'm sure they will.

I need the content. I'm not saying you don't. I'm not knocking you for that. Thanks. All I'm asking you is to ask them the rare. hard questions. When you gave up these guys, when you knew you weren't supposed to be right,

how did you feel? Did you feel like you were a man and you did the right thing so you could get yourself out of trouble and not go away, but the rest of them can? Do you still feel like a man? Because in our reality, you're not supposed to be after being a rat.

Yeah. So that's the only thing I asked for any of these platforms today is ask the real questions. I'm not asking you to say, hey, you're a dirty rat, you're no good, you're a piece of shit and all that and bring out, spill out hate. Just bring the platform where it should be in my own eyes. Fair. I do, I think I do always try to bring that up. Obviously, I can't, I have to treat people with respect when they're in here.

Of course. I can't ask it like that. But I, you know, I get their answer, even if it's a non-answer. I get their answer. And I think most people, I'm sure they feel some level of guilt about it. But humans, we dilute ourselves all the time. We have this amazing ability to forget and to diminish or rationalize. And that's a survival instinct.

we have biologically. So I think I think a lot of them feel bad about it. A lot of them regret it. A lot of people really just from a self-preservation standpoint had to do so much work for the feds and were put through such hell that I think a lot of them just putting on or aside were like fuck that was not worth it. I should have just done some time instead of having to go work for the DEA and be their slave for 15 years. So I think most of them regretted. I would like to hear them say that. Okay. I would like to hear them say that because I don't think I ever heard anyone, any of them ever say that. We have a guy coming on in a couple of weeks who epitomizes the argument, the other side of the argument that you're making, the philosophy that you live by.

So you should watch and people should tune in. He was a very, very, very high level guy, one of Chappo's main people in the U.S. And he was responsible for, he was the main guy testifying against him to put him away for life. So he, if there's anybody that can articulate what why, the why, it'll be him. So stay tuned. Absolutely. Let's, you know, you wrote a bestselling book. It's fucking amazing.

Your book is so good. Thank you. And Mark Wahlberg wrote the introduction to it, which I'm so happy. Because by Mark writing the introduction to my book. accepting me and saying, hey, and Mark had said this at one point in time in a meeting. He said, you know, John was such a young kid from the neighborhood that what he learned, he did right, because that's what he learned. And there's a lot of truth to that. He's not saying what I did in breaking the law is the correct thing and the right thing by any means,

but psychologically he's talking about the psychological part of it. And that said, And he loved the story. He wrote the introduction. And he gave me a chance to change my life around by being able to write this book and express myself and my feelings and the truths and about being a stand-up guy. Because mostly all these books and stories are all told to the eyes of a guy who cooperated and became a rat. How about for change, for change?

Seeing it through the eyes of a guy who walked a walk and who would never, ever rat. And you were younger than everybody. And I was the youngest. And all these old seasoned gangsters stood up and raised their hand and you stood tall. No, it's a really, really amazing story. And was it cathartic, by the way, to write?

You know, you Irish. I was working my, I was actually working my ass off in construction. I was walking 12, 14 hour days. And I'd go to my friend Fran Hurley's office, who, who's also one of the lawyers who was who came to me and brought the information back to Stevie about breaking out, you know, I get the information against the rats. Fran was a great guy and a true friend. And, and so every day, I,

go back to his office and we'd write. He'd sit there and we'd talk and he'd type and we'd talk and write and talk and write and we were putting this all down on paper. And then finally, you know, when we got to New York, they were like, hey, we need a guy who's a actual like, who's written before really good, a ghost writer, just to help out with structure. So that's basically what he did. And Michael Coffey, his name is, great guy, just come out with a book himself. And he came in for structure and he just gave that extra edge in the end with the kind of like the philosophical part of it in the end. Like for instance, I can live with myself. I can live with being on a bracelet.

I could live with getting life. But I can never live by being a rat. Yeah. You have to live with yourself. That was the main philosophy. It's like if I can live with myself, I'll be okay. These are the things that Michael coffee, those little things that he implemented that were absolutely great. And because he got me.

He understood. And he understood what I was trying to say and put it in a perspective and a structural perspective that it would be put perfectly. Yeah. It's a great book. Rat Bastards. Go read it. New York Times best seller. Incredible.

And it still sells. Oh, yeah. Oh, no. It's great. Thank God. And then follow you on social media. Yes. All that stuff.

I'll send you my social media. I think you're on it already. It's Red under slash Shea under slash official. Yep. And then we have the podcast coming out in March. We got a plug, go for it. And it's going to be on YouTube. It'll be the John Red Shea podcast.

And we're going to have the website soon and all that good stuff. And we have some very good guests coming. I'm not telling you because after I'm done, you're going to say, Johnny, can you get them to come on me too? I'm telling you. That's right, man. Well, I love to share guests, you know? Maybe we can collab. We'll figure it out.

I think a collaboration between us would be the best. Sounds great. I'm telling you, you're going to love the guest I have. So we're going to switch over to the Patreon now, talk a little bit more shit. But what a, this is one of these podcasts where I'm really grateful to get to do this to talk to individuals like you. Thank you. So thank you, John. Thank you guys.

And we'll see you over. We'll see you over at Patreon and go go buy rap bastards. We'll see you later. Thank you.