The Connect- with Johnny Mitchell - Uncovering The BILLION-DOLLAR Criminal World Of Art Forgery- Professional Art Scammer Reveals All

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Art forgery is a multi-billion dollar industry, and in this episode, we dive deep into the fascinating world of deception, talent, and high-stakes crime. Meet Max Brandrett, one of the most notorious art forgers in history, who made a living creating masterful fakes of famous paintings and selling them as the real deal. From fooling galleries to evading the law, Max shares the secrets behind aging paintings, crafting perfect forgeries, and the lucrative hustle that kept him in and out of prison for years. He reveals the tricks of the trade, his encounters with criminals, and the irony of people now forging his fakes! - How did Max get started in the art forgery game? - What techniques did he use to make his fakes look authentic? - What happens when the police catch a master forger? - The surprising connection between art, crime, and high society. Go grab a copy of Max's book for his full life story! https://a.co/d/gfWDR1a Join The Patreon For Bonus Content! https://www.patreon.com/theconnectshow Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's one day I'm standing there, and I've just sang my two songs, and I've moved again. And then suddenly there's a guy there in a really nice suit. He said, where'd you get these paintings from? I said, oh, I buy and selling them. He went, where'd you get them from? I said, I paint them. Then he went, what? He said, do you actually paint these?

I went, yeah. And he said, you know what? We could earn a few bob. Do you want to go down that road? I went, well, we're not. There are not many forges, but we were good. We were turning out five fakes a month. We hit the O'Mell Gallery for $20,000.

I think there's one of my Samuel Palmer's in the Brighton Museum. It's fraud. Fraud. And I'm a fraudster. Max Brandred is a professional art forger. His entire life, he's made a living by painting exact replicas of paintings by famous artists and then selling them off as if they were the real thing. That's what art forging is, and Max was the best at it.

Forgery is a multi-billion dollar industry and is by far one of the most unique and talented ways to make a living illegally. We're accustomed to talking to drug traffickers and gangbangers on this show, so we were surprised and delighted to talk to a man like Max, who chose a more refined hustle, but one that still sent him back and forth to prison for the entirety of his career. Max has a book out right now called Britain's number one art forger, The Life of a Cheeky Faker, available on Amazon.

You're going to love this guy. They really don't make him this way anymore. All right, enjoy my sit down with Max Brandret, the Art Forger, right here on The Connect with Johnny Mitchell. He'd go to a big house and he'd go, oh, that painting got, go, you really need to clean that picture. You need the stretch of redone. And they'd say, okay, do you think so? He said, otherwise that canvas is going to rock.

So they'd take it out. He'd come up and he'd get me to copy it. And they'd take the bloody fake back. And they sussed it out. And they raided me when I was in London. Caught me six times about this. Right. How much time did you spend total?

Well, some exaggerated it and said nine years about, in all I did a six, now I did a first six months, then I did a 12, then I did an 18, and I did two 12s. These are just short little hops. Yeah. Would you consider like art forgery? I mean, I didn't even know there was a law. When did they even put that law in the books? What, what, you can't fight paintings.

Yeah. No, you can't. because what I'm going to get through to the American audience is that we didn't walk around doing Rembrandts and Vermeers and we had a niche in the market of doing good shipping scenes like Turner but moving them all around put that boat there back there but my ageing are aging and the way we were Sammy Cohen we used to go into an auction room do the picture all glass bead glue aging cracking

and we were going and hello, Dad and all that, speaking like that. You know what I'm saying? And he'd go, and we rehearsed it in Cricklewood. And he'd go, ready? First time we ever went in. We had what we call a lot of pot boilers, like crappy pictures.

And we had one goodie, which we put right in front of it. So we go in and go, morning, morning, sir. And he goes, good morning. I said, I got some smudges in the car. So do you have a look for me? He goes, yes, bring them in, said, Dad, bring them in with her. It was all an act.

Right. So you guys came off as these aristocratic people that would never be committing. No, when the auctioneer was like a gentleman, we were commoners. I see. They didn't have a clue what we were doing. Ah, so you went in there as these commoners, buffoons, these naive people. I see. He'd look, it'd go for all the crap and you'd say, no, no, no.

Then you'd see that on the floor be a shipping scene by Albert Derby. And you'd pick it up and he'd go, oh, Albert Darby. And he said, is you any good, sir? That said, we went into this act. So we made him Right Yes yes And then do you know what I love

We were going all this crap Then Sammy used to say Can I excuse me So I'm not speaking out of turn It was an hour He said Max young son This gentleman is very educated

If you learn like that Right so learn and teach yourself And he went Oh yes of course And then that was like It was all a ploy It was a game So the hustle

Was to go to these auctions to basically sell artwork that you had. It were fakes. Right, but they were fakes, but you presented yourself as just people that wanted some money quickly for the art that you had around. We did house clearances.

You know what a house cluelances? House clemencies like a, you go in and you buy up all the crap that's left. But somebody's left a house, and there's a lot of gear there. So you go in and buy it, and there could be a painting. Right.

So the people, they're antique dealers, but not in the, the tent of being an antique of some note, you know, like a shop or anything. We were hustling. Yeah. We was to come out, and then what you do, the have a preview, auction. So you could go in and see some of the stuff that's up for sale on a Friday. So we'd stand there with the brochure and people would come out and go,

hmm, hell of the Derby, I can have a pop at this. This picture was dated 1750. It was only two weeks old because it was so beautifully aged. Then we'd go into the auction and we'd ring it. We ring it. Do you want a ring in it? No. You go, I'm on one side and Sammy's the other.

We push the bidding up until it goes to a certain price and we come out. Then someone, that's it. Okay, I need a little more explanation on that. Do you consider yourself an artist or a... No, no. Oh, definitely an artist, Johnny. Definitely, I was one of the best. Okay, I'll give you another thing.

I'll tell you something else. A guy did a documentary on the 12 best... art forges ever been. I'm number six. So art forgery is still an art? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Well, it is. It is. It is. Look at all the Tom Keating, Van Meagan, all the artists, all the forgers. You know,

Keating was all right, but we are good artists, but we can't make it in the world of painting. Nobody wants our stuff. So what you do, Portabella Road, singing dealer old canvas done it and that's so where it used to be because to make it as an artist i mean the the amount of luck you need it is jesus christ i mean who buys this crap for millions of dollars

i mean yeah i'm also like uh you know i'm a commoner myself so i don't really i don't see the appeal of a lot of this stuff that like looks like dots thrown that a five-year-old threw on a piece of canvas and they're and these high-class people are bidding millions of dollars for it. John, you say luck. You banksy is pure luck because they're stencils. You know there's stencils, don't you? Yes.

They're stencils. Right. He doesn't even do the stents. He has some maids in the factory. So I mean, and he's 50 years old. He's got this, everyone doing, oh, he's running around with the hoodie on. Go like, no, he's not. He's 50.

And I know, he doesn't like me. He knows all about me. Because I've been doing lots of copies of his work. I'd only sell for a couple of thousand and I'm in a bit. But we are true art isn't that right? How long have been painting?

I've been painted since I was six year old. Yeah. And I've classed as one of the best. All that I can fake anybody. Coolidge, dogs playing poker, Picasso. Yeah. Do it. So you're born really in like extreme poverty, I would say.

Is that fair? Oh, definitely. Yeah. What part of England? In Brighton. Brighton. That's the south coast. In a basement flat with five of us.

Cold weather and that sort of thing. Free, no heating those days. Do you know what? Johnny, I didn't even know what a toilet rolls when I went to Bernardo. We used to have news of the world on, and squares on a bit of stream. So I used to pull it down, yeah. That is exceptional.

All-world, old world poverty. You feel sorry for me already, don't you, Sam? Yeah, I'm picturing like you ever see the movie Willie Wonka in the Chaco factory. I'm picturing you guys living kind of like Charlie's family. I was very good at getting out situations, you know. I mean, I knew that the police,

I mean, there's two cobbets in particular in Brighton, Mugglesham and Litchman. They've been years, they've been trying to fit me up and stitch me up, but they got me three, four times. But now I don't do forgery. I do new canvas, but, you know, I get good money. you know, no, no. Three, four, five thousand for a picture. Yeah, it's hard to classify you as a criminal.

Like, it's hard to, you know. I'm a lovable, right? I'm a lover, wouldn't I, Bright. That's my greatest fan, my daughter. What did your, was, your parents were around? Your mother was around. Yeah, she had a form of TB. Yeah, tuberculosis, right. So they sent, I've got two half-brothers and one half-sister.

I'm a brander at there, Harris. Okay. My father was Dutch. Okay. And he was a painter, con man. Oh, he was a con man? Hmm. Wow.

Interesting. Okay, so it's kind of in your genetics. Well, he painted horse racing pictures. So you were taken from your family young. Yeah, it was taken from when I was five, six years old, sent to a children's home in in Norfolk. Yeah. And it was still, it was an old naval school and it was still run as a naval school.

So everything was disciplined. And it was very, they never called you by your first name. It was always brand, red, brand, right. But it was tough. But I'm going to tell you a story of some of the things that happen. It's a bit naughty, but it's nice. You can always edit out. I remember Pined at the quartermaster, I mean, not the quartermaster.

The master, he said, always, you see, we're going on to a holiday under canvas. We're going to a place called Cromer up in Norfolk. So, and I was probably about nine then, nine and a half. And so we all went to this camp And it was about 50 boys And the next field to us Was the orphan girls from Wellington Garden City And we were all allowed to mix on the beach

So on the Saturday We're all mixed on the beach jumping around And there was one girl with big booze bouncing around And I think, I want a bit of that son So I start staying around her And she goes, she goes She said, what do you want?

I said, I just want to play ball She said, what do you? And I followed around She went, what do you want? She said, go away and say, I'll tell your house master. I went, no, I don't want to. And I went, anyway, I said,

you've got seaweed sticking out your niggers. She went, what? I said, you've got seaweed sticking out your niggers. She went, don't you know that's pubic hair? So, anyway, but listen, so when I go back to the tent, I did a drawing of her with this offending so I thought it was green seaweed.

So I put my book, my scratch pad on my, when my camp bed was. I was in the, having a, in the, soul having my tent having my food. Dyson comes in. He goes, Brandreck, get to my tent now. I went, what? Get to my tent now. So I go in there, went, he said, what's this? I went, what? What's this? I said, I was the drawing of the girl during the bit. He said, what's this here? Oh, I said, that's public hair. So he went, what? Public hair? You've been funny. So I've got the blotched

strap for that. You got the strap for that? Yeah, strap for that. Yeah. But you were always an artist. You were always drawing. Yeah. You had a hand right away. Well, yeah, I was drawing. on it when I was on the circus and uh was it hard to be you know basically snatched from your as england used to do right they could take your kids if you were too poor the first place i went to um was a place called the village homes bark inside and it was um a matter it was a whole village that bernardo if you look at bernardo first started uh there were different houses and i was walking across the green with mr castle and he was taken to my house he said you're going to Joy Cottage, Max, and your brother's going to

Honeythorn. I said, why can't be with my half-brother? He said, no, you can't because you wet the bed. So I went in the cottage just for wet beds. And their ployers, like if you can keep dry for three weeks, they'd put you to another cottage. So anyway, Man Stanley, one of the nurses, said,

Max, please try. The guy used to come around called Sue George and used to take us down right in the middle night so we wouldn't piss the bed. Anyway, on the very day I was going to, Friday before I was going to do it out on the Saturday. I wet the bloody bed.

But the guy next door to me, I noticed his sheets were dry. So I swapped the sheets over. I gave him my wet ones and I took his dry ones. And the next morning they came in and I was in the cottage with my half brother. But it was a tough old life. Yeah, it had to be. And so you were kind of learning how to survive with these dishonest. And by the way, no judgment.

But you're learning how to, you know, come in streetwise. Streetwise. Street wise. Street wise. From a young age. I was known, yeah,

I was known as a Dodger. You know, one more little story, right? When we were at the holiday camp, and when we were camping, Pinnhead said, boys and Dyson,

the sportsmaster, he said, Brandreit, were you doing a cross country today? He went, all right, so, assemble outside the gate. I said,

where we run into you said, he said there, and this is, I've never seen a hill like it. It was called Beaston Bump. And that there was going to be a prize of five shillings, right?

So I thought, I want that five shillings. I wanted to make a crystal set, apparently. So we all started off, all the different colours. Lincoln, Cooper, Town, Dun & Baldwin, all different. So, and I ducked down in the bush, and I could watch them all going up, this bloody great big hill. I thought I'm not going to do that. So I hung about, and I could see them going to the top, turning around.

They started to run down. And I shot out about 150 yards in front of that slot. And there came a little bend, and it was all roped off, and all the masses were there. come on brandre it come on i could hear the master say is that brandwood in front bloody miracle the dice was going that's not that's not correct there's something wrong there and i got up to pinhead the master and he went well done max well done but i'll tell you what johnny i did some lovely acting i went i've right and he went come on you've only got 50 yards to go brandre and i went

try my best mr and i got there and he went well done well done sending me with the five shillings this is how crafty i was and he gave it he said said, now, Max, tell me, why were you so desperate to win that five shunuchs? I said, well, when I'll get back to my, to home, so I want to buy a new Bible, I thought, what a creep I was. So, and then, and then Dyson came up and Pinnett said, look at that. That's amazing. He said, and he went, yeah, I know it is.

It's bloody amazing. Miracle that was. You're a hustling, a little bastard. That's always a hustling. Yeah. And you get it from, obviously, necessity from your circumstances and your father. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, okay. So how long did it take you to get out of the boys home? Oh, 11 years. You were in the boys home for 11 years? Yeah. And there was a- Were you abused? No, not really. Oh, no, very strict though. Right. Never called you by Max. It was always brand-dret. The last place I went to was what is called Goldings. And you learned a trade there. You've had four trays to pick from. You could do bootmaking. I didn't. I didn't. wouldn't be a bloody gobler. That's just a start. So printing, no, woodwork or gardening. I just, I'd fluff my way through printing. And then one day Pinnett called me and he went, he said, Brandredit, you're going home tomorrow. And I thought, my God, after all those years, there was a lane called

Bintry Lane. And this lane led to the station. It meant, it's almost coming out of a prison camp. That was it, down to the station and freedom. So I walked down there. But as I walked in, out. We make lots of friends, you know, lots of comrades there. And all the boys stood there and they clapped and they started to sing a song. I won't sing it too because I've got my guitar with me. But, and the words were

there is a moldy shack down Bintry Lane where we get bread and cheese three times a day. Eggs and bacon, we don't see. We get sawdust in our tea and we are gradually fading away. Three cheers for Max, pip, and I ran

off. I was teared up. Yeah. Absolutely. So what a fascinating thing Britain used to do. They would basically steal children almost from their families and then put you into this like trade school. Well, yeah. You know, it's a mix of like a military school slash trade school.

And it would kind of like filter kids into these like laborer jobs. And you wanted no part of that. I didn't. Am I right? No. No. You know, I mean, nine, oh God, nine, ten years I was away. You were never allowed to see your mother.

Mum came to see me once from a distance. She was up at the quadrangle, and she was looking down while I was on parade. That's all she could see. But, you know, coming back to my mum, I wanted to see my mum, but my mum had a horrible boyfriend, and he was a nasty, absolutely nasty.

And he was Irish, you know, like he was always having a go at me. He beat me up badly, and I ran away. and I ran, that's when I joined the circus. Right. How old were you when you joined the circus? I had 15. And you were training elephants? Yeah, I booked into a guest house near Victoria Station. And while I was there, I screwed all the gas meters.

You know what a gas meter was? No. Well, they had little, in those days, hotels didn't have central heating. They used to have a small gas fire and you put your coins in. Well, I screwed, but screwed them, I emptied it with all these sixpences, pockets full of them. But when they were at breakfast the next morning, all the other guests, I screwed everybody else's room.

So I couldn't even walk by the guy. It looked like Robin Hood. You got all these gold coins. And then I saw men want to the circus, and that's it. They went up there. Yeah, that's such a weird, that's wild. That's like an Oliver twist story.

Well, that's why. That's why people asked me to tell my story. I got up to the winter quarters in Tipping Norton, and I was 15 years old. And I went, hello, sir, said, got any job, sir? He went, how old are you? I went, I'm 15. He said, get out of it.

He said, you're not 15. Get back to school. Anyway, turned around all disappointed. He went, come here. Where are you going? I said, I'm going to go back and get a job in a hotel, live in. Come here. You ever work with elephants, weren't?

No. And he said, come here. We walked in to the wintercores and there was massive great shed. And there they were. Lelia, Mary, Camela, Susie, Nayla, Dana, Rani, Sita. Mabel and Sally. And he said, you'll be washing them down, doing the toenails, and raking them out.

I didn't know what that raking out until later. And then he liked me so much, because I loved it. I loved it. He said, Max, you really love working on it. I said, I do. He said, you're my second in command. I was only 15 and a half. And we had a show coming up in Binley Hall in Birmingham.

This is fascinating, right? So he said, and you put the harnesses on. Our first show was a Saturday evening. It was a matinee. and he said right if we've done the toenails we'll golden them up for the show put the harnesses on you said max get yourself a big bucket of water in the big in the big in the big hot water draw soap from the stores said now come with him he came back and the back of the elephant he went now we don't like elephants soiling the ring do we he went oh no he said so he

soaked his arm with rubber glove and he shoved his hammer the elephant's backside and pulled it all down and i said have i got to do this and he went yeah i said you got to every day twice a day and it was for and I said do you get extra money went yeah 10 shillings I said every elevator went no just a week and I had to do that but what I noticed

there was Lelia I got used to it after two weeks johnny you know is that raking the elephant where you stick your arm up their ass and get their shit out got it stops them you can edit some of that out no we cuss yeah so you shit stops them from shitting

in the middle of the performance And pull it down. And then, but I noticed they could hear the ambulance. They've got to know me. They could hear the bucket rattling. So two of them had their legs open before you got. They were loving it. But you had to be very careful.

Don't let them cross your legs. You bloody lose your arm. That's how bad it was. Right. There was a suction. Yeah, they used to squeeze in. What I used to do, I used to go, Lelia, Mary, Kermil and Susie Dela, Rani.

Rani was my favorite. She was a big fat head thing. I loved her. But she wasn't as intelligent as the rest because don't forget, elephants, if you're 24-7 standing up, which I'm so much against now, they go from side to side, swaying up and down,

this boredom. Because you're chained up, standing up for 24-7, you know? Anyway, but Rani, when I got to Rani, she used to turn and look at me and thinking, here, you dirty bugger, you're loving all this, huh? Right, right. Yeah, that's what I used to. to do.

Wow. Spent three years on the surface and I'd add enough, you know. Did you find time to paint still? I was chickie, Dickie Chip before saw me painting one. I was doing a picture of a clown. So he said, perhaps, can you do all the sides of the trucks and the clowns? And so I became a member of the family with my own caravan. Wow.

But I'd had enough. I wanted my guitar, I wanted to paint, go to London. That's what I did. Right, right. That seemed like the dream back then. Now we're talking like pushing the 19. 1960s, end of the 50s. 60s.

Yeah, so the revolution is coming. Middle 60s, 65, 67. 67 I got, when I left, when I left a circus. I was all those years on the circus. And I got to put about, no, actually I was docking in Shepherd's Bush.

What was it dozing? Sleeping rough. Right. Meaning, doing bad. Yeah, we're sleeping rough, or sleeping in the park, basically. Oh, okay, yeah. And I was very young,

and there was a lot of other docers, you know, let's say tramps or hobos. Hobos, that's the word. Homboes. Anyway, and the guy called Andy, a guy called Andy, he went, hello son, he said, you're alone. I said, yeah, he said, come and join us, and they fed me and all that sort of thing.

And I stayed with them. But you said, listen, there's a place called Cadby Hall. It's a big bakery. He said, come there, he said, and you can get a night's work, like casual. So they pushed me in front Said can you give a job to the lad So he's had no he's got no money

So you had a job all night And I was on the donut jam machine So that you put it's quite turn on it You put the jam in The donut in and then you bang it And the jam spurts out I was on that all bloody night Then I was on the winkling machine

But you know you only get You only get one night every two or three weeks But when I got back and I was You know in back to the park I said you know what I said, Andy, I could go tomorrow night, put a brown coat on, such a big place. Nobody had known. I could go around picking up all the food, the rolls, and bring it back to you.

And I did that for five weeks. And on the last day, I got sorted. And I nicked a bloody wedding cake. Anyway, so there, you know, there were lots of... You had no plan? You had no plan to... No, no, I wanted to paint. I didn't have any money, so I wanted to build up money so that I could get a bed sit.

and start painting. And it happened like that. This is how I came into a forgery business. So you really are like a born, like it was a calling. It was a calling, right? So all this like hustling, whatever, stealing wedding cakes and pastries and survival, working in the circus and whatever,

doing whatever you had to do just to get back to that room so you can paint. You know what you sound like? You're kind of like the art version of Charles Bukowski. Do you know who Charles Bukowski is? I don't know. Can you do you? He's a, he's a, famous probably the most famous american uh writer nonfiction writer of the 20th century and he's

you know grew had horrendous circumstances as a child you know kind of an outcast really he had like a pockmarked acne face and he just worked these miserable jobs that lived in these you know single room occupancies and just buggering about with the probably didn't use that word right just you know frolicking about with all sorts of like unseemly people and it was just so he could get back to that one little shitty room so he could write yeah same thing yeah yeah it's pretty romantic yeah it's hard though people want to be an artist it's like you know welcome to being an artist I managed to get money together and rent it in Cricklewood little tiny little room you know and then I thought I had some money to buy canvases new canvases were expensive you could buy

an old one and I thought you know you could get one for sort of 25 p or something like that and what you do you've got say a bowl of flowers repainted old one as long as the back looks very old you know right anyway so you'd rub it down scrub it down and prime it again and took right first time let's put an old shipping

scene from the 1830s shipping off Dover shipping like a turner and I thought that's quite successful and then I started to put him in old frames, old nails back again. After about six weeks, I hit Portabar Road with five of them. And I got, like a matcham, how much is the old Marine picture? It was a fake.

He said the best I'd do on it is 400. For bloody hell, I've never had 400 quid. I went, yeah, that's about right. It looked, it looked at the business. He thought it was a real deal. Yeah. It was a fake, you know, had Albert Dhabia on it. It was a made-up name, Albert Dahl.

Who's why in 1958? No, no, no 60s. Okay, but still 400 quid is a lot of money back then for a painting. Who's buying it? But if you do Portobella Bela Road, the paintings there, but it was quality, it was good quality. It was very sharp, it's really turnerish. I think 300, 350, 250, that's what I was getting down there.

And it was, I couldn't believe it. So you can make a living off that. Absolutely. I lived and changed and ended up in a flat in Fulham. Nice, big place. Nice. So everything's changed. So you got into forging yourself.

It wasn't through this guy who you later hook up with. I used to go and get reference. I'd go and find old labels that took on the frames. But then I met a guy in Portobella Road who knew that I was doing this. And he said, you would have to learn how to crack them. Do you know what crackler is making cracks all over them? No. Well, crackler is like when a painting's age, it cracks, right?

And you said, you bead glue. Beed glue is like a scotch glue. He said, heat it up. It looks like little lentils. It comes to a sort of like a boil it next day. It comes to a liquid like a varnish. Varnish it all over. Put it against an electric heater.

Circulate it and it'll start to crack all the paint like big white cracks. Wash it off at a big loose of water base. Wash that off. Put your hoover empty, your dusty old hoover on all the dirt. Blow off the surplice. All the cracks are filled with dirt. Old nails that you've got. from the garden under glass

auction couldn't sell. Wow. And that's what we were doing. Wow. Okay. So you're the people buying these you're there you're purporting that you bought these originals from whoever the artist

was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was a dealer. And you're a dealer. You're reselling them for a little markup. Big markup. Right, right. If you've got a name like, you used a name like Albert Darby or Jonathan Crom Clarkson-Stanfield and I copied Clarkson-Stanfield

style. So people thought Clarkson-Stanfield, even in the 60s, 68, 70s would probably fetch about 2,000 to 3,000. His top man, top marine painter, this is what I was doing. And so did you look the part of somebody who could afford to

buy and then? I'll tell you what, in the days of Portobello Road and, yeah, I wore a big victor and frock and I used to look like something out of Dickens, you know. Right. Yeah, I've got photographs and there's a picture of me there. So then why, if I'm an art purveyor,

or if I'm buying art at retail, why would I believe that you, this trampish-looking... No, no, because I... It was the opposite. No, because I talked to talk as well. Okay. And I didn't go, allowed down in all right. I used to sort of say, I went, oh, yes, I'm not really.

They go, oh, yes, quiet. And I was like that. I was like an aristocrat. Yeah. And I'd say, oh, I bought that in an auction house down and I bought it in a sale in Exeter or whatever. Or I bought it from a house, a guy who owned some painting. I was a different, I was an active. I was a different person.

Right. You were an antiquer, yeah. This is where I got this from. When I did the talk the other day, when I meet people, like, you know, it's like if you, if you go, when we go to the auction rooms, you know, like, hello, so got smudgy. A smudge is a nickname for a painting. Smudge, got it, right? Right. So I've got smudgy and they go, pardon? Right?

And I'd show you know, babe, can you get out my bag? There's a duck in there. Well, it's interesting about the class system in Britain. In America, you know, it's very race-based. And here it's either back in the day, it was your accent belied from where you come from. Yeah. And so... I want to show you something.

These are what we call Bessick ducks. They're very, very collectible in the 50s and 60s. There was one day, the three of these, three... This is fake. This is a fake duck. And this was like on the wall very much in England. You know, people love them. Probably in 1950s.

Well, I was knocking out these. But what it is, only recently, I saw this advert and it's says paint your own ducks. So you could send away to this company who did these in porcelain in white and I thought they're perfect. I'll order three boxes.

So I ordered three boxes of these. I painted them up white and put them on eBay. And they went for 12 quid. They went for 150 on the first night. Wow. Yeah. But now I thought I'd order another of the 12 boxes. And after about the 10th box eBay rang me and he went

hello Mr. Brandred he said there's a lot of ducks coming our way I went oh what's that all about then sir being common again yeah yeah and he went well we believe they're fake oh are they sir I didn't know that I just I bought them from an auction he went no he said they're fake he said I'm afraid you're banned and I said what you're saying so I'm out for a duck

he went yes you are so they banned me for life for me for selling fake ducks yeah yeah duck so the difference in the commoner versus the aristocratic accent in Britain is duck it's a little more the the blue collar is a little more what would you say duck so well I mean it all depends I think the the aristocratic accent is is more is a little longer a little less grinding on the consonants it's a little more the guy the taxi driver he's a cockney right he's born and he's definitely a cockney what does cockney mean well cockney means he's real London yeah you

You can see how friendly is as well. Right. So that's a Cockney is like a born and raised in London. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. So anyways, but I think that's interesting, like the discrimination. You're playing with the way that it's kind of like when we say like black guys in the United States.

Like all my black friends, they have a white voice. Yeah. They have a voice where when they meet like they used to, I used to bring black kids home to meet my parents. They would put on their so-called white voice. you know what I mean? Yeah. When they're in the streets

or when they go for a job interview, they're smiling. You know what I mean? And but when they're in the streets, they get to let their hair down and talk, you know, commoner again. That's really interesting. So this was the hustle.

Yeah, well, if... This was the con. There's one day I'm standing there and I've just sang my two songs and I've moved again. And then suddenly they're a guy there in a really nice suit in a really long black overcoat, gray overcoat,

with a velvet collar. hair black right jet, but he looked very Jewish to me and he was so his name was

Sammy going and he went hello so he said where'd you get the paintings from I went

oh the smudges I said oh I buy and sell him he went how much you pay that's 150 is it said that's very cheap and he went

and he knew there was something wrong because they were too cheap and I didn't realize and he went have coffee

with me so we had a coffee he said where'd you get them from I said I paint them. Then he went, what? He said, do you actually paint these?

I went there. And he said, you know what? We could earn a few bob. Do you want to go down that road? I went, well, we're not. So we started to do him. That's how I met Sammy Cohen. Did he help you scale your operation?

Yeah, well, he did. Yeah, he was very good on the business side. You know, I mean, we hit the O'Mell Gallery for $20,000. You know, that's how good we were. Right. But that was very rare. And that was one painting? Yeah, one painting.

Wow. Yeah, but the, about it is that when we did when we did the auctions you know i said we rehearsed it right you know like and uh he said i'm you're your dad right and remember don't call me you just sammy right i'm your dad like let's go aren't you check you know check it out do it rehearse it allow sir i got smudging the car so do you'll have a look that's it you say to me come on dad bring them in that then that sort of way you know he had to do it yeah and he fell for it he really the auction it went for it and because Because you showed respect, he said, because Sammy chipping in and saying,

this gentleman really knows his business. And he kept saying, in that right, sir. It's very much like a Dickens like, Uripe, you know, I'm ever so humble. Right, right, right. And that's how he did it. Wow. And we put it in the auction and stand by it and watch people come in and go, hmm, I'm going to, their comments, they didn't know a baited the bloody thing.

I'm just standing as casually, you know, looking at whatever in the preview. Okay, so it goes, you guys selling these fakes to the auctions, and then they auction it off to the end buyer. You don't sell them to the auction. You put them through the auction. Right. And then you guys split whatever they get sold for. Yeah, they take a commission.

Okay. They would say, I don't know what they'd take. There's a, you know, yeah. So if you sold for about five or six thousand or two down to three thousand, They'd probably take about 3, 400 out of that. Okay. And yeah. Good deal for everybody.

But to get one through, they're not silly. They, a lot of people, I'd say there are not many foragers, but we were good. And I'm going to say the picture was good, the canvas was right. Every, the providence, we call it providence, has to be right. You heard that expression? The providence of a picture, right? I haven't heard that now. Providence is knowing the history of it, looking at the back, seeing if there's, if there's,

frame maker or a label on it and it's been in auction. We did all that, a potato mark, you know, watermark, things like that. But the canvas had to suit the picture. You couldn't have a modern picture, like a Lowry, on a 17th century canvas. You couldn't do it. What were some of the big artists that you were back then that you were trying to mimic? Clarkson Stanfield, Jonathan Chrome, David Hulk, Clarkson Stanford as well. that Albert Derby.

Albert Derby was a made-up name. The auctioneer was trying to be big, and he went, of course, Albert Derby, Norwich School of Art, it's made up. Albert Derby was a ghost to sweep the floor in the warehouse. I took his name. Wow. So you see, it's all been...

And that, what you just said right there, sums up the world of art buying and dealing. It's all big-time. all the value of it is propped up by bullshit by basically rich people you know trying to flaunt as we say in the United States

we've come into a bit where we got nixed okay so before we get into that just the logistics of it is fascinating so would Sammy bring you the concepts say okay this week we need a Albert Darby or whatever there's that's good that's good because so

you need you know when you when you when you use oil paints, right, if you use titanium white that you buy or flake white, if you did that, say you're doing a lovely sky to do a start of the marine. If you use titanium white, that would take six weeks to dry, where we couldn't do that.

So if you take an ordinary tin of house paint, like you painted door, undercoat door, which you know, you mix that with your oil, right, and put your hair dryer over it. It'll dry in about 15 to 20 minutes. That's how we were doing it because we were turning out five fakes a month. Oh, wow. And you'd think of the money.

But it's somehow, because look, think about it, undercoat paint, quick drying for your door. It's bound to work with your oil. Just run your hair dryer over it. Wow. And that was the way was to do it. So you could really turn out some volume. Absolutely. So, you know, what do you think an average fake would fetch at an auction?

About two or three thousand. Yeah. The lowest, the most we got was 18,000 on the big Dutch winter scene. You know, the skating figures. Yes. That was perfect. Okay. That was perfect.

The canvas was perfect. Didn't you have to give any spiel with it? Just went straight through. Wow. Spiegel is a lot of old chop. Well, you tried to only do those big famous paintings once in a while. You didn't want to. Is that because those brought too much heat?

No. No, we could do Clarkson-Standfield. and so our signatures were good because a big book of signatures you could buy we used to just trace the signature off and then laid them on the cane and rubbed them down you've got the imprint on the and so just drew round them

signatures were perfect Sammy was good at signatures anyway so wow so you guys got nicked how long did you go before you got nicked how long were you working with Sammy oh about three about three and a half years oh wow so you were moving a lot of work absolutely were you living a good lifestyle

thousands out there of mine, Johnny. Yeah, floating around to this day. Absolutely. The people are probably finding out through you doing this internet stuff, people are probably looking at their painting like, fuck, I wonder if that's fake. I think there's one of my Samuel Palmer's in the Brighton Museum. Really?

Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, I think it is one of mine. What do you think these, what do you think the value now? Because people store a lot of their wealth as an inflation hedge. They put it into gold, into Bitcoin now, and into, like, art. do you think what do you think the value of your fakes could be inflated at now like if somebody buys an investment in one of mine thinking it's all right i've got a i've got a samuel palmer or i've got a clarkson stanfield on my wall and it's mine but they don't know about

it that's the only thing there's only one way of telling is that they need to go to the rooms under scientific way. In my day, they didn't. Today, if I tried to get a fake Saddby's and Christie's, I couldn't get it through. In fact, we were at, we were at, you know,

the do I did the other day. There was an auction downstairs in one of the rooms, like, and a guy came with, he was the auctioneer. And I walked in, he went, didn't he done? He went, I know him.

He said, I can't believe it's you. You're a max brand, isn't it? He said, was in Christi's when they when we were chatting to you keeping you waiting because the fraud squad run away to nick you and I went yeah I said I remember you said you're a legend mate he said and we all talk about you he said because you know it's that was weird isn't it so they have they have fraud squads even back then that would try to determine if the painting was fake or real yeah they know me back in the day what methods did they use to to try to oh x-ray an x-ray you know what but can you

playing that more? Like what an x-ray? How that determines? If you put a picture on and also take a bit of the paint, take a flake of it, you can test whether it's modern, new, if it's new oil. They can, they can even date it for you. That's, even then they could do that, but they didn't do it for us. And only, you know, if you're going to auction, the auctioneer has already made up his mind. That is the real deal. Right. You know, because the age was so good. If people have got one of I think, you know, and I must admit the cracking, the stain it, we didn't use tea bags to stain it up, you know,

but you use all sorts of methods. And there's another thing, if a painting's been in a frame for hundreds of years, you'd have a clean edge when you'd take it out of the frame, wouldn't you? A what? A clean edge all the way around, where it hasn't been exposed to the elements. So we used to run our finger with some turps all the way around,

so it left a clean bit and a dirty bit. and the dirty bit. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. You thought of everything. Yeah, absolutely. And the smell. Old talcum powder on it.

Tauken powder rots after a while. And it starts to go stale. We even put a couple of spiders on the back sometimes with your cobweb. No shit. Yeah. Wow. But nowadays you couldn't pass that. No.

With the tests they have and everything like that. So your lifestyle, you really upgraded zip codes. after three and a half years of doing this. Okay. Yeah, I've got to say we were good. I was good. Yeah. To this guy, he did a whole series of Van Meagan.

He talked about him, John Bratby, all these artists. I knew John Bratby. And he said that Max Brandre, he came to me, told my life story, all about the circus, the conning. I've got more of a good artist, but they love the circusy things. That's what's all about you. Why is this a crime exactly?

Oh, of course it is. No, but why? You're giving your deception, Johnny. It's fraud. Fraud. Fraud. And I'm a fraudster. Yeah. Yeah. At the end of the day. I get redraw symptoms as well.

Do you really? Meaning like you want to do it again? No, if I see an old canvas, I want to paint a fake on it. I go, I get all shaky. Well, you can paint it. You could do that legally. You just can't sell it and pass it off. off as an original.

You can do, look, you do a copy of a Banksy. As long as you put Max Brandreth, after Banksy, that secures you. I see. You know what I mean? That makes it good. So it's like copyright. If you don't do that, it's copyright. Larry, I'm not a great lover of Larry.

You know, do you know Larry? Do you know his work? No, I'm a, I'm a peasant. No, you're not a peasant. Why? Okay, so is there a big market for... You're a good interview, though. Thank you, sir.

I really appreciate that. Is there something about England? Is there a big market for our... art in England? Well, yeah. It must be. I think the fascination is they're loving the, you know, the, we do a lot of car boots here, you know, big car boots.

You had the same thing, Gary's sales. Right. And all the dealers are looking for the right picture. I did Portobello, have you been to Portobello Road? No. Oh, it's fascinating. Tell us what Portobello Road is. Portobello Road is the antique scent on a Saturday.

it's full of characters it's full of hustlers and I loved it I played my guitar down there I met some wonderful characters and one character I met and I was painting one day and not painting I was selling

and this guy old fellow went hello sir he said I love your smudges and I went hello and he was an old man of about 80 he had a big buckle belt on trousers didn't fit an old jacket from the dimod too

and I said oh I said don't shout them out I said, who are you? He said, I'm George, but I'm the great Ramondo. I'm an escape artist. I get out of sacks being chained up. I said, when are you going to do it? He said, now. So he goes to the middle of Portobello,

he goes, excuse me, ladies and gentlemen. And he makes them all make a ring around him. And he said, with my young friend Max, who's just met, he said, he's an artist. I thought, God, don't keep saying that I'm not supposed to be an artist. So he said, young Max, could you help me, sir? So we go and we put him in the sack. And we cuff him like that.

And he goes, please do not try this at home. And we also try the ropes. He said, I should be out as the great Romando in exactly one minute. So he gets on the bloody floor there and he's struggling away after two minutes. And he goes, Max, I went, what? He said, I can't get out. I went, what? He said, I can't get out.

To take the key out of my top pocket and give it to him. And then he pops out and he goes, I'm sorry. Due to the inclement weather, the ropes are tightened up so it's difficult. to get out. But I'm assure you on my next act, I would be out in one minute. I love characters like that. You got to get better at your craft no matter what it is. It takes time. So what, tell us about your first Nick. You're going along. It's three and a half years in the game. How did you get pinched? Well, the first time ever went to Nick, when I was in, when I decided to go to Cornwall and followed a hippie trail with my guitar. And I ended up in Dorchester. And I had no money,

slept rough, got up at five in the morning, in Dorchester, walked up to high street. saw this sort of guest house. I went upstairs, up the steps, and it was all empty, and I spotted this chandelier. I nicked the chandelier, and I looked and I saw a hundred-day clock. So I put them in a bag, and they wheeled them down the street on a small barrow. That was the first time I got Nick then. But after that, when I was with Sammy, I got Nick.

I was, I think it was two drawings, and I got Nick on that. Yeah, it was two drawings, yeah. And that's when I tried to put them into, not Croydon, Croydon auction and they sussed them out. Really? The fraud squad? Yeah, fraud squad and picked me up and I got taken down. I know as Banker Rights guilty. So I got, I think I got, I got, I got, I got six months, eight months on that, eight months.

How do they determine that right away? Does the auctioneer see that and then pass it to the fraud squad? No, the guy that bought them sent to be inspected and the paper wasn't right. Paper was too modern and they came back to me and it was all set up. But when I got to door, actually Winterston, Nick, I was the first one I went to. And it was old, and Winterson Nick was about, sort of about 150 years old, you know, all the old cells. Yeah. And I got in there and once people knew though you were an artist or you drew, all the old legs would come along and say,

here, do me your drawing, Max, didn't you drawing. And that's what I do. And I became what we call a tobacco baron. That means I used to smoke then. So you had a guy called McGinty, he was like my minder. So I'd lend out a half ounce of Golden Virginia tobacco then they'd get another quarter back interest. And that's how he's to build up.

Oh, wow. And I remember one day Sammy was coming in as a regular, still my dad. That's what I'm saying. So I'm sitting there waiting to see him. And we could mix. We could touch, you know. It wasn't a big screen in front.

And he went, and he's talking. How are you doing? I went, oh. He said, you keep your head down. Do your time. You'll be out soon. He said, here. Fancy doing any work.

I went, how am I going to do work? Send him out my bloody post. He went, no, he said, up my sleeve. I've got six sheets of old paper on it from the library. I said, is it proper paper? He went, yeah, it's all done. It's 1830, real stuff. Cut the drawings on it, Max.

Dear boy, I said, what do you want? Said, Samuel Palmer's church scenes, right? Okay. So I went to, I sort of said, Governor, back to myself. I've got them all up my sleeve then. He went, yeah, go on, up to my cell. Put them out in my Bible.

sort of flattened him down under my bed and I slept on them. I did this for, we did about five or six times. So you're doing fakes while you were in prison. Yeah, I was doing pen and ink drawings. How were you faking though?

Like how were you referencing what you were supposed to be faking? No, the ink, you can't, you know, the ink you couldn't, you could if you put it to the rooms.

But the paper was right. The paper was Nick from a library. Right. From a real old book about 1830. He used to go with his razor blade and nick off the clean sheet. Do you understand? No, but I mean like if you're forging, say you're forging whatever, a Banksy in prison, don't you have to be looking at the original image?

No, no, because you've got the library. We've got a library. Oh, I see. We've got a library book of Samuel Palmer. I see. Because the governor thinks, well, Max loves his art. So can have a book on, you know, Samuel Palmer, please? Everything's there.

so what we did and what and Sammy used to come and you know did it quite often he'd go we sit there go oh my son now I've got them up my sleeve this time right and I go and he goes yeah he's doing that he said yeah and it's rough for you son son

son I know dad I know dad he's put him up my sleeve and I go back to the South government and yeah going in but we did this for about five or six weeks and then one day I had them in the Bible and the governor comes in He goes, hello Brandreit, morning Branderick.

I went, hello, sir. I went, sir, he went, sir, he went, Mr. Spilling. Hello, Mr. Spilling. He was the governor. And he went, ah, he said, oh, that's where you need to go. He said the Bible. And he picks up the bloody Bible, and I've got six fakes in there. He gets it like that.

He goes, he said, oh, no, I was trying to get this. I said, that's the way I'm going to go. So when I come out of here, sir, that's the way I'm going to be. Never again. He went, good on you. I thought, please don't open that bloody bike. So you put it down on my table and he went, right, he said anyway, he said, when you do it out, Matt, Brandre,

I went, got two weeks, so he went, right, let's keep it straight, don't want to see you back again, all right? Anyway, I'll see you in two weeks, he said, and he said, well done, but none of those dodgy pictures. He said, that one's all right. It was a girly picture I did, you know, like some nudy thing. I did for one of the old land. So you were eating.

You were doing well in prison. I always have. So you got out. what is the plan, is the plan to just do this for life? I don't know, you just drift out. Well, I met my wife and I had my lovely daughter there and she's my agent and my, you know. But you went back and forth. You got caught.

I mean, you did multiple bids. No, before I, before I, you know, I went back and forth. But it's only when I met Diane. And I was, well, I went. back, well, I was still forging, wasn't I? My ex-wife knew that I was forging, but turned a blind eye for it. I used to, when I was living, I had a lovely house, didn't you? I had a lovely front hill road.

Very, quite successful, published prints of horse racing. But I used to, couldn't keep away from it, Johnny. So I used to do about five or six old fakes on old canvas. And then I used to go all over England in my car, going to antique shop, saying, I'm different. I'd be an aristocrat then. I wouldn't be, Allah,

darling, and all that sort of thing. I'd be, hello, I've got a painting that was left to be my great gran and in Exeter,

well, you know, with bloody Exeter, I don't know. And I'd be selling it for three, four, five, six hundred,

sometimes two thousand. Wow. How much do we have under the floor boards, darling? You're keeping money in the floorboards? Yeah.

You were like a proper criminal. That's like what a drug dealer does. Thank you, Johnny. You're keeping money in the... Get away money. Did, uh, how do you get the canvas? How do you, if you're faking like a really old painting, how do you... You can get them.

Go around antique shops. Right. You've got to get the... And it's no good doing a canvas that is too new. Otherwise, an auction you go, yeah, whatever, you know, suss you out on that one. Right. How long were you working with Sammy when you, after you got out the first time? Got out of jail?

I'll carry on with Sammy for about another two and a half years. years. Okay. But we made some big money. We really did have some, we have lovely times, but we were spending like you wouldn't believe. We're going through hundreds of pounds, you know, best rooms and, you know, God, buying, I, I like swapping things. I've got to, I swapped, so, I've got to, I give them the two winter scenes for a beautiful, big vintage car. My daughter loved it. Do you remember my Madison? It was a Madison I had, flashy car. And like now, I've just bought three guitars and I gave him a bankruptcy and they got a Gibson guitar. Wow, you gave him to

Banksy? Yeah. So you know Banksy? Well, I mean, yeah. I've been in front of him. I mean, but with Robbo, but we don't know. Now Robbo's fake. I've just found that out. I did the last couple of days. The real Robbo died in 2014 from a drugs overdose. Wow. It's a dodgy old world there, Johnny. It's a very weird niche world. You're going to put all this in? Yeah, of course. What do you think, Brian? Right. You're, you're, all the other time, all your other nicks. Oh, yeah.

Do they keep stacking your charges as like a drug charge? No. The more you get caught, the more time you do the next time. I did three stretches. I did Winchester was my first. And then, and then I did another. I got an 18 on that. And I remember the judge saying to me, Mr. Brandre, he said,

you're such an accomplished painter. Why do you persist in doing it? And I just said to in that time, I get withdrawal symptoms, Your Honor, when I see it, I just got a bloody paint on the thing. Right. And he still gave me sort of 18 months. Did you try to create originals? Did you try to break into the art world like that?

I was trying to be like Beryl Cook. If you look at Beryl Cook, she did sort of a character chore at the things. I wanted to be like that, but I just couldn't make it, you know, just couldn't do it. So what would be the process of making it? Like you got your paintings, you tried to get them to auctions, you try to get a name. Look, if you look at sort of Banksy or Damien Hirst or Tracy M. They just had that stroke of luck, you know. I mean, Banks is dreadful painter.

He's not a painter. He's a bloody guy doesn't even do his own stencils. Right, right. Robbo was good. Robbo was a real graffiti artist. You know, beautiful work. Right. This Robbo, but he's my great friend, but he's a bloody fake.

You can't trust anybody these days, John. You're all bloody fakes everywhere. That's right, Brian. I think about a forger calling someone a fake. Well, I tell you what. If you got the irony of that. A few weeks ago, no, a couple of months ago, a guy walks into a Croydon gallery with a fake Banksy by Max Brandreth.

He said, Max Brandrick did it because now people are buying my banksy's. Wow. Knowingly? No, probably not. They're collecting me because I'd do a fake copy of a banksy because of my name, because of my notoriety. That's a hustle, though, isn't it? Doing somebody else's work, but selling it at a discount.

This guy has walked in there and gone, I've got a Max Brandrecht copy of a bank scene. But the guy said, turn it round. He said, it hasn't got his character on it. I do a character and I do it on your book, right? Of a face. I do on every painting. It's me sort of like not hair, big nose, very quick.

you know and I he said he went yeah well you must have forgotten how to do it he was and when I saw the image of it bloody rubbish right now but is that something you could do legally like could you do could you mimic

other famous artist paintings put your stamp on it though and sell it at a discount no that's no you can know if you do if you do a bank so you said it as a copy by Max Brandrick whoever

I've got a bit of a name now. I've got followers all over. Well, you think 18 million views, it's a possible, you might get that from this. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So do you have work that people can buy? Yeah.

Okay. Got a load of it, I'm not a load. So at the hotel. Yeah. And Danny Brighton, yeah. I've got Coolidge. I've got Banksy's. I've got Vitriani.

There's another one story. Look on there, Johnny. There's a girly picture called Vetriani one. one? Yeah, the one kissing. That's a Vermeer. Oh. Is there one with a victim? Yeah, I'm looking at it right. Right. Now, now he is still alive, right, but he's a miserable bugger. And he's a Scotsman. Not there. I haven't got anything that Scotsman, but I faked a lot of his stuff. And he had a book signing in Brighton. So I go there, you know, and buy his book. And I want him to sign it to get his bloody signature right, because I want to fake his signature. And I get up to him. And I tried to pretend I'm from Scotland. I'm like, I see you, Jimmy. That's what they like.

And he went, and I just pottled it. I went, see you? And he went, what? I said, he suffered. Fumbled the accent. I just loved it. And he went, I said, do you pain? I said, oh, I dabble a bit.

So I said, could you sign it from me? He went, they're right. Back to my place, trace it off on the canvas. That's how we used to do it. Wow. What era did it stop becoming possible to forge? I think I just sort of drifted, didn't I? I was working in Brighton doing fakes for some charity,

no, no, for some antique shop. But you just drift along and, well, you know, I sold pictures, but I didn't have the success. And I don't know what changed it, those ceramic ducks. Oh. So a duck changed my life. Right. You were making so much money selling ducks.

And then, well, then there was a story in the telegraph newspaper about Max Brandre. You know, and then a story in Burgessil where I live. Suddenly it went from there and more there. And the Vice TV came out. That had 18 million views on it. Then they asked me to do another one. I've done the White Loft. I've done the Cambridge, you know, Cambridge reunion review.

Do you know, Cambridge University? Yeah, of course. I did a talk there. I'm on the, my daughter was there. I'm on the Hall of Fame. Wow. And we're next to Robert De Niro. Right.

Seriously. Oh, wow. I sat on this very chair at Mandela was on. And they were talking about my life stretch. Like I'm talking to you. What year did you say, okay, I can't go to prison anymore, even if it's only for a year-long stretch? My age now. Yeah, but I mean back, what era?

Oh, looking back, did you say, okay, this is my last stretch. It was the last time I did a prison sentence. Really? Yeah. So that's rather recent. Yeah. At your age, what did you go to prison for? forgery. Wow, what was the last

forging job? I think it was where was it? I think it was, I think it was two shippings. Oh no, it was Otto, a guy called Otto and Bruno. I gave him a painting. I think

I gave me two Louis Waynes. Louis Wayne did do cat pictures. I said one to go to Manchester, one to sell in London. They tried to sell both here. and they sussed it out. And they raided me when I was in London. They raided you like it's a drug raid?

Yeah, yeah, he came in, yeah. Was it the armed police? Yeah. Imagine telling Max Brandrette to get on the ground and show him your hands. Like it's, it's such a bizarre thing. Stop resisting as they keep saying. Were they able to like, was it DNA or was it like CCTV that they traced?

Like did they build a big investigation around you? No, because they Nick Bruno. They Nick Otto. to blagged me in he said he lives there so when they raided me I was in high I was in I was in I was in Fulham and they they burst in and I've got everything on the bloody easel I've got I've got a Samuel Palmer drawing and I've got two two cat pictures on on there so that's it I've got busted dead dead to rights yeah I'm okay wow sure so I I just have to imagine that the art world's relationship with you must be a very complicated one

because artists are kind of the antithesis of, like, you know, aristocrats. And that's really who is getting screwed over in forgeries. So while you're forging their artwork, you're still kind of, your crime is against the Uber wealthy. So are there artists that kind of were almost supportive of you? Like, yeah, I think it's, I think it's sick that you're ripping off these rich people. using my artwork. Yeah, true. Yeah.

Hey, Brian, stop doing my job. Stop making me look bad. That's a great question. So the victims of forgery really are the Uber wealthy that are buying these paintings. Definitely, yeah. But also the greed of the dealer. I'm so anti-dealer, you wouldn't believe it. Because they, you know what?

Especially I used to get my daughters. I was married then to go down the lanes in Brighton and all the antique center. certain shop I was to go into I won't mention the name I'd go in with a really nice shipping scene they knew that you needed the money so you go all right what you want that disrespect they show straight away

how much and I said what are you asking I said 400 went give you a 90 quid and you had to take it because you had no money right you know so that's how I lived you know yeah but I tell you one thing though Brian my fellow artists don't talk to me very well

there's two of them I'm not going to mention their name but the jealousy, one in particular, I used to teach him, and he went to prison, and he keeps telling him when he went to prison for forgery, but he didn't. He didn't. He did something completely different. But he won't talk to me now because I've sort of left him in my wake, if you know what I mean. Sure, sure. One of them is not even that good.

It's not that good at all. So it's like, it's such a bizarre, you've lived this way really for four-feworthy. four decades. Yeah, yeah. Or five decades. I've loved it, Johnny, I've loved it. Yeah. I've loved it.

Do you love the painting of it? The thrill of the thrill of getting it past the auction? What you love about it? The excitement of nearly getting nicked. Yeah. You know, the adrenaline and running. That's right, darling. That's the addiction?

My daughter's absolutely clean. She's not a villain, are you? No, I can tell. She's lovely. What? It's, is that the addiction? to the rush of nearly getting nicked, or is it the painting, or is it all of it?

I'll give you an example. A couple of Ford Squad in Brighton know me very well. This goes to McGleham is one of them. Now, I was walking around a few years ago, banked rights with fakes in my bag, and were in the lanes, and they were following me, and they were going to nick me any minute,

and I thought, right, but I had a friend who had a sex shop, you know, with all these big rubber dildos, all there. So I'd go in there, all the knickers and the wall on the wall. And I go in there and I said, I said, Richard, I said, Richard, Ritchie. I said, those two, they're a couple of perverts out there to keep looking at the knickers. So I said, where's the bloody back door? So I went out of the back door. He came in and he went over to him. He went, sorry, gentlemen, we don't have yours at a time in here. So I'm asking to leave. And they went, where's that? He said, gone. Where's that

digging? That's it. Wow. Okay. So did you make a living? So did you make a living? any other way during that time? Did you have other hustles? Did you do anything else? Well, my guitar playing wasn't that brilliant? No, no, I just, oh, I worked in holiday camp and done things like that, you know. Did old jobs, you know, but. But you basically raised a family off of money from art forgery.

Yeah, and I did, I bought three houses, didn't I? You bought three houses? Yeah. Oh, so you did, you were living an upper middle class lifestyle. Well, when I was with. diet and I bought three houses and and when I when we split up I gave her the house I didn't take anything so I started all over again they got a beautiful house and well font who was beautiful and five bedroom was it four bedrooms yeah did you fall into uh any drugs or anything like that

never never even smoke now I haven't smoked for 30 years wow no I've never done drugs I lived in Canterbury once and I met a famous actor Chris Ellis and I had I I had a derelict old derelict pub. And I was Jack the lad, everybody in, oh, that's the forger there. And Chris, as an actor, came to see him. He was at the Marlow Theatre. And he walks into this derelict pub.

I lived near the bar, all the bits have been taken down, just the bar area. And he comes in, there's a girl sweeping the floor, and she's topless, right? And he said, Max, he said, why does she got no top on? And I said, well, I told her that her jumper got lots of hairs on it, and when it comes on, it gets on my clambers,

when they're wet. That was the sort of things we were doing. Right. It's absurd. It's out of a, it's out of like a Michael Kane movie from the seven. It sounds like dirty rotten scoundrels.

What, me? Yeah, this kind of this life you're living. So what do you think with me then, Brian, after all that? I'm a fan. What about your relationship with like the art heist world? Did you ever hear about like people like? Oh, yes, I did, yeah. Yeah?

Yeah. Talk about that? Yeah, I'm not going to mention their name to. One of them is departed now, but he was brilliant. he used to get me, he'd go to buy antiques, he'd go to a big house and he'd go, oh, that painting, go, you really need to clean that picture.

You need to stretch a redone. So he said, I'd say, well, I'd just give him his first name was Bobby. That's all I'm going to say. And you go, you need to have that cleaned. And they'd say, okay, do you think so? He said, otherwise that canvas is going to rock. Hasn't even been done. It needs to be restretched.

So they'd take it out. he'd come up and he'd get me to copy it and take the bloody fake back and so but they were good they were good yeah he's gone now bless old bobby what do you do now to get your thrill because i think that's the key elements you know johnny i love i loved them to know my story my book you love that i want the real the real um what it was like in the 50s to struggle, the holiday camps, you know, my, that was called the Dodger, because they knew I was a dodgy character, but you had to play the game with the masters, you know, the masters, that you had to.

Britain's number one art forger by Max Brandreit, you can get it on Amazon. That's the only place that people really buy books, the life of a cheeky faker. Or I can come to America, put a banksy on the kitchen door, no questions asked. That's it. That's it. So did you find, so you lived a life, even though I believe everything you're telling me, you lived a life. Can I just say, Johnny, there's no bullshit in my life.

It's absolutely the way it is. There's no artistic license of fantasize my story. The way it happened is the way it's real. It's absolutely real. It's remarkable. But you live the life of a faker, as you say, a cheeky faker. So you, but it was a life of a, it's a lie. Oh, absolutely.

Did that affect your personal life, your relationship with your family? My mom knows me as a lie. Mom, does she think your dad's a big? No. I never lied, didn't I? She didn't. Okay. And very good as well.

Is it now, now that you're out of the forging game, you get to be an upstanding citizen, an honest person. Does that feel good to not have to like, to get to tell your story and not have to look over your shoulder? I don't think I did that much wrong to be honest. I don't think you did either, but I put it down to survival. I always say that. It was, but it's been one fun hell of a game. Right. From day one, from leaving, walking down Bintree Lane and going back, you know, you know.

I mean, I miss even Buckingham Road in Brighton, you know, in a basement flat, you know. my mum's boyfriend at that time, we had no money. But he used to, in those days, the pubs used to open at 10 o'clock, close at 3 and open at 6. He was a drunk, he was a barrow boy, we call, a spiv. He worked the markets. He used to come in drunk on a Friday.

Mum had no money. He used to take his suit off and press it under bits of cardboard and put his bloody bed on it so that we wouldn't nick it, right? So he's to lift his bed up and then tell you mum to say, go down to the shop. She said, and get five shillings on. on his suit. And he'd wake up and go,

six is right ready to go to pub. He goes, where's my bloody suit? And then she said, I've had to bloody, mom said, I've had to put it in bloody pawn shop. She said, we've got no bloody money for the weekend. And so he had to sit all weekend in his bloody underpants and his vest. That's what I really miss. Right, right.

Yeah. You were surviving to do your art. Yeah. And, you know, you were never too worried about jail. I guess you kind of got used to it. I could do, as they say, standing on your head. I was so, I was respected. Not that I wanted to go there.

Yeah. But I was very, can I just say, I was very popular because I had this, you know, I suppose this way about me talking and that sort of thing, telling stories, you know, the circus and that. And then the biggest thing was doing how bit of draw. They say, Max, can you do me a woman with big boobs? Yep, okay, then. How much?

Half ounce of golden? Yeah, golden Virginia, tobacco. Yeah. Or can I have some sugar? Like we didn't get much sugar in there, you know? So it was always a hustle. You were always able to earn when you went to prison. You got, let me tell you one thing.

When you're in Nick, you're respected for your crime. If you're anything dodgy children wise or beating your wife up, you've got, especially in English, Nick's, I think the same over where you are. You're an absolute nonce, you know. You have to tread very careful. Right. You know, but me, you know, star, even as a star on there, because I was the first offender, you see.

Right. Did you ever have to do any, do you ever have to fight or do anything like tough when you were in prison? I wasn't, no, I'm not a violent person. We've got some, I've got some gangster friends. Oh, did I tell you about the craze? No. All right. Right. Have you heard of the craze? No. Okay. Ronnie and Reggie Craig. Brian, you ought to look them up, actually. The craze. Yeah, the twins. Right. So Portabella Road, 1968, busking away of my two songs. Suddenly a guy comes up and goes, hello, John. He said, do you do smudges like from photographs? I went, yes. I said, I can.

He said, my friends are up the road there. He said, I'll be back in about 10 minutes. So he came back with his photograph of a woman about 50, whatever. He said, can you do that? I went, yeah. I said, can you do it for next week? I went, yep. So I went back to my cricklewood little tiny hovel.

I did a painting. I thought, quite nice, like a 2016, nice frame. Went back. I thought, oh, I don't think you'll even turn. up and then he comes down he's got lovely suit on and he looked at the business and he went I said you've done it I said yeah it's in the bag he said my friends are up the road so we walk up the road and we go to a pub called the the earl of lonsdale the jrc no the old of lonsdale and I walk in and I and I couldn't just because the light was very bright outside and then

I saw it Ronnie was sitting down and Reggie was at the bar Frankie Fraser was in the call another gangster so Ronnie gets up and he walks to me and he goes hello I went, I don't. He said, my boy says, you've done the smudge. I went, yes, sir. He said, don't call me, sir, right? Don't fucking call me, sorry about that. Don't call me, sir.

So I said, all right. So he said, sit down. So I sat down the cray there and one cray there. And I knew exactly who they were because Ronnie was weird. And you'd check him out. He was weird. And he said, let's have a look. And you picked that picture.

And it went all quiet. I thought, shit, you didn't like it. And he went, look at this, Ritchie. bloody marvellous sis he really did this son i went yes sir i'm trying to say sir and he went bloody brilliant reggie have a look she got mum's eyes in it he's done it so anyway and then he went he went and he's a good-looking kid as well because ronnie was gay you know what i'm saying oh wow and uh he said i must show you as well and i was going uh and he said give him a one i thought quid it was a hundred pounds in 68 was a huge amount yeah in 1968 yeah wow

And then as he goes out, he said, hey, Maxie, come and have tea in Valance Row with me, mum, on Sunday. I went, I can't, Mr. Craig, I've got to go to church. I've got to get out of that one. Yeah, right. But Brian, you'll know, weren't he? Yeah, Johnny, he's talking about legend. The Tom Hardy movie.

Yeah. I see. I see. Okay. Thank you, Fraser was a little squidditch of a, he was called Axeman. He was not even real. And those were East London, like, gangster. I met.

I met quite few of them. I met Freddie Foreman, who's still alive. His sons of big actor, Jamie Foreman. And I met Joey Pyle and Roy Shaw. But these were all tough guys. They're gangsters. They were not, I mean, you know, Sean does the same thing. But can I just say, I don't think they had that same sort of buzz today.

You know, they don't have that same sort of panache. Yeah. The gangsters of that era, they were suited and booted, you know, like lovely handkerchief, bit like me. But today it was all like, I've listened to some of those. Well, we know one, don't we, darling? We know one that we're going to be seeing this Friday, actually. Well, time changes everything, you know, and trends fade and characters, you know, disappear into the, you know, the past. So, Max, what do you want to promote besides this book?

Are you, what's next for you? Are you making long-term plans? I'm looking for a grab-a-grony with a few, Bob. Yeah, are you on date? I do travel, but only on liners, don't fly. Yeah, flying sucks. And all banks is on their kitchen door in America. No questions after, honestly.

Britain's number one art forger, Max Brandreth, the life of a cheeky faker. One more thing, actually. We don't know. We think there's going to be a make of film. and I'm going to say this by a very well-known actor who was in a lot of him called Frank Harbour, Harbour. Harper?

Frank Harper. But we've done the pitch for it, and it's going to be a movie about my whole life story. We've been working on that sort of thing, you know. We don't know where it'll come off. We think it may do. Are you looking him up, Brian? I hope so.

I hope so. I mean, Al Pacino, if you could do a British accent, he could play you. You look like him. God damn it. You look exactly like you're spitting him. image of Al Pacino. Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah.

Max, this was a fun one. Yeah. This was a fun one. Thank you. Go check him out. Britain's number one, Art Forger. Max Brandred, I mean, what a treat. This was different.

So I appreciate you, sir. God bless you, then. Thank you very much for having us. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys. Take care.