The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Brené with Barrett Guillen on The Hardest Feedback I’ve Ever Received, Part 2 of 2

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

This episode is the second of a two-part series on feedback, and Barrett is back to take it to the next level and dig into engaged feedback with me. As you know, Barrett is chief of staff for Brené Brown Education and Research Group and one of my sisters, and together, we go through the 11 elements of the Engaged Feedback Checklist. It’s a practical tool, and we talk about the real and tangible ways it’s changed how we approach giving feedback and leading tough conversations. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, everyone. I'm Brne Brown, and this is Dare to Lead. And welcome back, Barrett. Hi. We are back for part two of our episodes on feedback. So part one was the hardest feedback that we've ever received. And then we really got into some life-changing information. Yeah, we really did. That was, it was just weird. It unfolded in real time for me. Like, wow, I do know some of these things and I don't talk about them because I'm in a hammock on the balcony. If you didn't listen to the first episode, that will make no sense, but do know that I like balconies and hammocks. So in this one, we're going to talk about our engaged feedback checklist. And I want to read to you for a little bit from Daring Greatly, if that's okay with y'all before we start, to let you know

kind of how the checklist came to be. So let me tell you a little bit about, it's about my first experience giving feedback to a professor and also getting feedback from a professor when I was pumped up for something aggressive and combative and how she forever changed the way I think about giving and receiving feedback and how this encounter really led to the engaged feedback checklist. Okay, I'm going to read to you. It's in a section in Daring Greatly on page 202 if you have the book, and the section header is sitting on the same side of the table. In my social work training, a lot of attention was paid to how we talk to people, even down to where and how we sit. For example, I would never talk to a client across a desk.

I would walk around my desk and sit in a chair across from the client, so there would be nothing big and bulky between us. I remember the first time I went to see one of my social work professors about a grade. She got up from behind her desk and asked me to take a seat in a small round table she had in her office. She pulled up a chair and sat next to me. In armoring up for that conversation, I had pictured her sitting behind her big metal desk and me defiantly sliding my paper across it and demanding an explanation for my grade. After she sat down next to me, I put my paper on the table. As she said, I'm so glad that you came in to talk to me about your paper. You did a great job on this.

I loved your conclusion and patted me on the back. I awkwardly realized that we were on the same side of the table. Totally discombobulated. I blurted, thank you. I worked really hard on that paper. She nodded and said, I can tell, thank you. I took some points off your grade for your APA formatting. I'd like for you to focus on that and get it cleaned up.

You should submit this for publication, and I don't want the reference formatting to hold you back. I was so confused. She thinks this is publishable? She liked it. Then she asked, do you need some help with the APA formatting? It's tricky and it took me years to get it down, she asked, which was a great example of normalizing. I told her that I'd fix the references and I asked her if she'd look at my revisions. She happily agreed and gave me a few tips on the process. I thanked her for her time and left, grateful for my grade and for a teacher who cared as much as she did. So I'm sharing this story with you because I remember, like, I remember this situation, like, completely, have you ever done that, Barrett, where you, like, armor up for a hard conversation? Totally, yes. Yeah, like, you go in, ready to, you know, go fist or cuffs if need be.

Yeah, practicing with the steering wheel on the way in. Yeah, or laying in bed at night. Okay. Yeah. You're like, then I'm going to say this, and they're going to say this, and then they're going to regret saying that because then I want to say this. I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, so I had done that.

And the only word that comes up for me is I was so disarmed. Like when she walked, you know, she had that big university-issued metal desk that's, you know, 10 feet long and 10 feet wide, like a box. She came out from behind it. She had a little, almost like, it was almost like a little roundtable with those ice cream parlor chairs, you know. And she sat right next to me, I'm like, dude, you're in my fighting space here. Like, what's up? Disarmed you right off the bat. She just disarmed me right off the bat, compliment on the paper, told me that she could tell I worked hard on it.

It was such an interesting. experience. And so when I was looking at all the data that emerged around giving and receiving feedback, I thought back to that moment. I have to tell you that in terms of getting feedback, from the time we're born to the time we die, we get feedback from people who are so unskilled at giving it. Right? Yes. Starting with parents, teachers, coaches, you know, going into our first jobs. in laws, the list is endless. Endless.

And so we should write that down as another podcast idea to talk about what to do with feedback that's delivered in a shitty way, but may have some pearls in it, may have some growth opportunities in it, because I think there's some skills building we can do around doing that. What we're going to talk about today is this checklist. You can actually download the checklist. We'll have it on the episode page. It's also in the Dare to Lead Hub on our website. this is the how to know you're ready to give feedback checklist. Is that how you think of it,

Barrett? Yes, it totally is. It's so helpful to have it too, because sometimes I'm like, nope, not ready. Yeah, I would say I'm not ready nine times out of ten. I have to pause. And it's tricky because I'm also a huge proponent of giving feedback very close to the time of the behavior. Oh, yes. You're very, you do all the time. Have you given that feedback? You need to give it right now, 24 hours. Yeah. And for me, it's preferable 24 minutes. Yes. So let me set up a little context about kind of bigger beliefs around feedback, giving feedback. One, if it's a behavioral feedback about something that just happened, as opposed to like you've been reviewing a deliverable from someone for, you know, a couple of days and you've got concerns. If it is behavioral feedback,

you need to give it as close to the behavior as possible because behaviors have backstories. You want to use examples. You want to be very specific. and so the closer to the time when it happened much better. Secondly, we're two-parters. We really believe in short feedback sessions with circlebacks, and I'll tell you why. Normally, once you start to give someone some tough feedback or you get curious about something that happened, a lot of us get flooded very quickly. And so there's no reason to draw that out for an hour.

There's no reason if someone's flooded or overwhelmed with what you're saying, they're not going to be able to get themselves together and give it really serious thought for a couple of hours. So what we'll normally do is, let's say, Barrett, you and I were in a meeting and you got really pissed off and pounded your fist on the table. Okay. And so I may pull you aside right after that meeting. Hey, Barrett, do you have a second? Let's just roll play it out. Sure. I saw you get really upset in that meeting. It was a very frustrating meeting. I was having a hard time managing myself as well. One thing I want to talk to you about is when you got frustrated, you pounded both of your fists on the table. It is absolutely okay to get pissed off. It is not

okay to do that. It scared some people in the room. Some people jumped in their seats. It feels like creating unsafe space for people when we do that. Would you like to talk about what happened now? Would you like to circle back in a couple of hours? I want to talk through it with you. No, I think I've got it. I won't slam my hands down on the table again. Sounds like you got that part, but I do want to talk about it with you. So we can talk about it now, or we can talk about it in a couple hours or when you're ready to talk about it, what feels best? You know what? I think you're right. I think I need a little bit of time to calm down, and I would like to circle back in a couple hours. Okay. Let me check my calendar just a sec. I'm pulling out my phone.

You want to do it from four to five? We probably only need 30 minutes. Sure. That's great. Four o'clock. And you're going to come to my office. You want me to come to your office. What feels best for you? I'll come to yours. Okay. So I'll see you in my office at four o'clock. We'll circle back. And again, I was super pissed off in that meeting as well. I don't think our team was treated with very much respect. I don't think they gave us a lot of credit for how hard we've worked on this. So as you're thinking about it, I do want you to know that I was with you and the pissed off. The feelings I'm not concerned about the behavior is problematic.

I'll think about it. I'll see you at four. Okay. So we like to divide those things up. Even if we're going to sit down and give performance feedback, we'll say, I want to spend some time with you today talking about this program or this project you put together. Here's some things I went really well. Here's some concerns I have.

I want to ask some questions about it. And we can spend maybe 30 minutes today going over it. And then let's schedule some time to follow up tomorrow so we can think about more questions and get more answers. Up until I've been doing this work with my therapist since COVID started, I would have told you I'm really great and really fast on my feet, which I am really good and fast on my feet, as you've seen. Yes. But I'm not always good. I'm just fast. And some of the shit that I say, I really regret.

And so even if you're fast on your feet and you don't get flooded, I think it's helpful to think through things. Say more about being flooded. Being flooded is really when I say to you, this is not what I expected when we talked about this deliverable, and all of a sudden you can't think about it. I don't hear you anymore. You don't hear me.

You know, wah-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-and-then. What did I do wrong? I hope I don't lose my job. I'm like, you're not listening. You're not hearing. You're going through the motions because your nervous system is like, no, I'm out of here. You can stay and listen to this bullshit. The nervous systems out. Out. And so we like two-parters and we like short two-parters and give people a time to think. It also gives people that have different ways of thinking and speaking and working. through things, it levels the playing field. Oh, God, that's been so hard for me to learn because I, too, am quick on my feet. You are. Some people really need to think about what you said before they're ready to talk about it. And if you're giving the feedback and you're quick on your feet,

you like to get it over with a lot of times. Not you, one, I like to get it over with. And, P.S., I like to frickin win. Like, I like to win. And so, The state rests its case. You know, it's Brne Brown v. Whoever's across from me. This is a good note for your birthday coming up. I need to get you at gavel. Is that what they're called?

Yeah. I won't say what I'm thinking, but I'll give you a sign. Is there a center on the podcast? No, there's a nonverbal communication across the table here. Yeah, no, it's like I like to be judged jury and conviction. Therefore, I conclude that, you know, it's a terrible. We know genetically predispositioned.

I'm laughing, though, because I know it's true, and I know, like, you like to win and get it over with. I've never seen you show up with someone in a hard conversation like that. So in the back of your mind, I know that that's spinning, but I've actually never seen you do that. No, because I appreciate that. And I am pretty good at hard conversations. But it's not because I'm wired to be good. It's because between judge and jury Brunei Brown and how I show up is this checklist. Yes.

This is that, again, that third space. This is my practice. So I want to win. I want to get it over with because it's uncomfortable. I like to tap out of uncertainty as fast as possible, but I don't do it because I've built muscles around it. So let's talk about this checklist. There are 11 of them.

So if you've got Dare to Lead, there are only 10 because we've taken a whole bunch of people, I mean, 60,000. Yes. And before you, though, before you jump in, I cling so much to this clear as kind when I'm going in to give feedback. Oh, God. Can you start there? Okay, let's back it up. So this was just a huge learning from, we're in our 11th year of the

Daredele leadership research and one of the biggest findings, clear is kind, unclear is unkind. So to not give people feedback, to not be truthful, to not do the kind of hard coaching that we have to do as leaders, because we don't want to hurt people's feelings is kind of bullshit. It's actually we're hiding behind that to minimize our own. own discomfort. And there's nothing more devastating for people than not getting feedback. It's like when I don't give you feedback for growth, it's almost like I'm saying to you, I don't believe that you can get better, or stronger, or be a better leader. It's not worth my time. And that's hard. That's really hard. So clear is kind, unclear, unkind. And how many companies and organizations have we

gone into where people have worked there for 10 years and never received an ounce of feedback. That whole nice thing, I was so in shock when we started going into these companies. I'm sure you weren't, but it was newer for me. And I was just like, I was really surprised. Every organization thinks it's uniquely struggling with a nice problem. You know, we've got Acme Brick nice problem. We've got, you know, Jones TV, nice problem. Like, there's a nice problem in a lot of cultures. And I can tell you right now that I have zero interest in nice. First of all, I'm much more interest in kindness than nice because nice is performative. And 99% of the time, when I ask people in the kind of quote unquote nice cultures, what do you do when you're pissed off or you have a performance

issue or if you've got hard feedback? What do you do if you're not talking to people? And the answer is always what? We talk about them. We talk about people. Neither nice nor kind. Yeah. So and just And toxic. Toxic. And it ruins people's careers. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll start with clear as kind, unclear as unkind. And let's look at the readiness sheet. Okay. So what I was about to say is number 11 on this sheet is not in the dear to lead book because we've taken, I think, 60,000 people across every continent in the world. I mean, all over the world, we've been taking people through dear to lead work. We have a group of dear to lead certified facilitators. And they've been taking folks through. We've collected data. So as we've been collecting data, we have updated some of the pieces of Dare to Lead looking for hopefully a Dare to Lead version 2 in 2022. All right. So this has 11. We'll go through the 10. Then I'll talk about the 11th that we've added. So I know I'm ready to give feedback when. Number one, I'm ready to sit next to you rather than across from you. So let's do number one and two together. I'm ready to sit next to you rather than across from you. and I'm willing to put the problem in front of us rather than between us or sliding it toward you.

This has changed not only my work, but my marriage. When you're yelling at the steering wheel, practicing this conversation, you are not ready. You are not ready because you're putting the problem between you as opposed to really walking around the table physically and putting it in front of both of you and saying, I've got a concern here. let's start by me telling you what my concern is and checking in to see if you share the concern or if you see something different and I'm missing something. So right off the bat, it's vulnerable and I'm not sure and this is what I'm seeing. Number three, I'm ready to listen, ask questions, and accept that I may not fully understand

the issue. I have never once in my career given feedback, daring feedback, the kind where I'm curious and asked a lot of questions where I did not learn something new about the problem that I was trying to talk about. Or two, I had a part. Yeah, do you remember, we had a really big circleback meeting, I don't know, a few years ago. And the first question you asked, it was a really tough meeting. And the first question you asked was, what do you think went wrong? And every one of us had different answers.

Yeah, that's our story rumble process. So this is a great thing to add. One of the things, do you know the James Clear quote by heart? Oh, no, but I can find it. Give me, just keep talking. No, I'm going to hold for it. Pause with us. Take a sip of tea.

It's that we don't rise to our greatest aspirations. We rise to the level of our most broken systems. Is that what it is? It's very close to that if that's not it. You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. Your goal is your desired outcome. Your system is the collection of daily habits.

Got it. Okay. So we're going to interview James Claire on the Dear to Lead podcast, and I can't wait, because I have that quote on a Post-It note on my desk at home. So the thing about courageous organizations and the thing about courageous leaders is we can't always depend on our courage to carry us through. So we have to develop systems within organizations that are brave systems that shore up our courage for us. Does that make sense? Yes, that we can lean into. When things are so hard, you're like, I have this system I can lean on. Right. And so I don't care how brave the collection of leaders happens to be. If the systems are not there to support courageous leadership, you've got a problem. So we have developed kind of a process called the story rumble when the shit really hits the fan. Do you remember what that meeting was about?

It was about a business that we were starting. Oh, God. Yeah. This was before we had made a real strategic change in 2018. It was about a business that we were starting and that like two other businesses we started were hugely successful in the first quarter. And I decided that they were outside of the scope of work that I wanted to be doing. Like this is when we thought we would start businesses to scale our work, which is always kind of a thought leader dilemma. Like you've got ideas and you're a researcher and you're coming up with. things that you want to share. And then should I scale the work myself? And then all of a sudden, I'm not doing research anymore or writing. I'm interviewing, you know, full stack engineers. Like, I don't even know it. It's just like, and I'm, I'm in five-hour meetings about fonts. Yes. Yeah. Oh, God, it was a really, and this is one where I, in a very gung-ho, did not want to hear any criticism of my idea about starting this business. I'd want to start

this business forever, started it, got everyone invested, put a lot of money into it, and then wanted to fold it up six months later. Yeah. Yeah. That's hard, y'all. That was hard, but it just number three reminds me of we all thought the problem was different. Right. And so the story rumble process is starting with what story are you making up about what happened. And everyone writes down the story and everyone posts a story on the wall, on a big post-it, at the same time, to avoid kind of the bandwagon or halo effect. The halo effect is, if I go first, I've got the most influence in the room. And so everyone kind of shapes a story that fits mine or the bandwagon where you jump on with the group thinks. And so this kind of turn and learn, we call it, like turn at the same time, is really helpful.

And so I think this goes back to, I'm ready to. listen, ask questions, and accept that I may not fully understand the issue. Number four, I'm ready to acknowledge what you do well instead of just picking apart your mistakes. So when you're planning this conversation and raging at the steering wheel or laying in bed at night and thinking of all the cutting, snarky, shitty things that you can say to bring someone to their knees, you're just not ready. Because just like in the first episode of our two-part episode, we talked about our strengths and our opportunities for growth are on the same continuum. If you attack someone and don't help them understand how they can use their strengths to shore

up what this deficit is, you're not ready to give feedback. Does that make sense to you? Yes, totally. When you're doing your steering, well, pretending, do you, are you thinking? I'm so good at it. It doesn't usually translate, though, to the feedback conversation. No. Is it anger? Is it discomfort? Like, what are we just charging in those? I think it's probably both. I think it's, I'm usually frustrated by how something happened.

Usually it's because I haven't set very good boundaries, honestly. Yeah. And or I wasn't clear on what I was asking for. But usually, I'm a commuter. So it's really a great opportunity for me to just get it out, get my emotion out around it. and then I can really think about what was my part, how can I sit down and have a meaningful conversation to make sure we understand

what are the key learnings and how do we embed them so we don't do it again. It's beautiful. Yeah, that's right. I'm not a commuter. I live really close to work, so I do it at night in my bed. And then I'm going to say this, and then they're going to say... That's why you don't sleep.

You need to just drive around your... Yeah, I do. They put someone's picture in the center of my steering wheel. I don't do that. That might go take it too far. I like it. visual person. I'm a visual learner. Number five, I recognize your strengths and how you can use them to address your challenges, which is, it's really interesting. I started using this when I was teaching

graduate PhD and master students. And I still use it. In fact, I'm teaching an MBA class right now at UT Austin. And one of the things I do is I force, you know, when we do peer feedback, when people do their presentations, I require people to frame their what you could do better in terms of what skills I saw you display. I love that. Yeah. So you're usually presentation. So, you know, in this part of the presentation, you really drew me in and it emotionally resonated with me. So I was, you know, hooked and listening. And I think this part of the presentation would have benefited by more of an emotional hook to go along with the facts, not just the facts. So, and this is Dennis Silibe from social work. He, you know, developed this thing called this drinks perspective. And it's really helpful,

too because even when we look at, you know, what some people would call clinical pathology, a social work perspective is very different. You know, we look at sometimes at adults or teenagers and say, what coping mechanisms did you develop to survive what you come from? Yeah. And instead of diagnosing those, wow, you survived this and this is how. how you did it. And maybe some of it is manipulating or splitting, but now these don't serve you anymore and they're costing you genuine connection with other people. And so it's really hard because people say, oh, you mean like, just look at the sunny side of shit. Hell no. It's so hard. Yeah. And so for me, it's much easier for me to say, I'm super dependable. If you need

something from me, I'm very dependable. That dependability can also slip into caregiving. And so I have to straddle the tension of what are the right boundaries to be dependable and kind, but also let other people take care of their own shit. Oh, amen. Yeah. Oh, wait, before you leave number five, we hired a group of new people this summer, amazing group of people. And one of the things I talked to them a lot about in onboarding was there will be areas where you feel out of your wheelhouse, and there will be areas where you feel really grounded in your confidence.

And how can you borrow some of that grounded confidence in those areas to help you skill build in other areas? Oh, my God, that's it. That's so great. And how did they answer? I think they were a little flooded by all the information. But I talked about it actually in my own professional coaching. But because there are areas where I feel really grounded in my confidence. And then I'm like, how can I take what I'm really grounded in and apply it?

to the things that I'm still really learning. I mean, that is grounded confidence, and that is the difference between people who are invested in mastery versus short-term success. Yeah, and it's interesting here because, you know, in giving feedback, they might not see that. They might not see that,

oh, I actually perceive you to be very grounded in your confidence over here. Is there something from here that you can borrow to use over here? And even surfacing the question, you have two or three really strong areas of grounded confidence. Why do you think it slips here? Why do you think the self-trust? Why do you think you question yourself here? Totally. That's great. Yeah. Number six, I can hold you accountable without

shaming or blaming. Okay. The world sucks at this. I was going to say Bberg, we are really good at this. Oh, no. We're work we do. We're right at it because we skill build around it. I mean, it's just we're good at it because like a three-point free throw. We've made 10,596 of them. So we're, we're right at it. We're we can make two or three in a row, and it's not shocking because we've missed 10,500 and whatever number I said minus three. I will say that when I'm blaming the steering wheel a lot, I have to be careful when I'm blaming because then I have to really think about my part in it. Oh, for sure. And I don't think we shame. Think about this way. What is the research definition of blame? The discharging of anger and discomfort. So when you're blaming the steering wheel,

you're just discharging the anger and discomfort. And I think sometimes for me, it's a necessary process to get to where I'm the leader I want to be in an actual feedback thing in a feedback session. Great. So that I can keep blaming the steering wheel and just don't bring it in my feedback session. Yes. No, it's like therapy. It's like I say all the stuff I'm not allowed to say in the world to someone who holds space for it and is not judgmental and says what's underneath that? And I'll say, I'm pissed, I'm hurt, I'm disappointed.

Yeah. You know, and so I think we can let ourselves feel. I mean, what are you going to do with emotion? Pretend like you don't feel it. Like it's a massive energy. It's not going anywhere. I told you that was one of my hardest feedback, my emotional reaction. Yeah.

So be with the steering wheel. I'm going to be not one with the steering wheel, but just with the steering wheel. Yeah, that's right. And the world sucks at it. I think about this news article from Austin in this kind of wealthy school district where a parent ran up and pulled the mask off of a teacher, physically pulled the mask off a teacher at a meeting about, you know, how they were going to deal with COVID when school got that.

And it's like we shame her, the person who did it, belittle, put down. It fuels this mask versus no mask. No, that's assault. Yes. Like you're tried, you're held accountable, and you serve whatever time or community service or whatever that is, and then fewer people will do that. But we don't do it. We don't follow through on accountability because holding people accountable is

really vulnerable. Like it's really vulnerable. It takes a long time. It's a lot of work to say this was not okay. And this is the consequence of that. And it's almost like our own discomfort gets in the way of letting people experience the consequences of their own choices and behavior. Oh, man. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like I remember a principal saying that they had a teacher working with a school district and they had a teacher that was always on their phone and always on their phone. And I'm like, I don't get it. You're this person's boss.

So you put her down, you put her down in front of other teachers and faculty lounge. You shame her, but you don't ever hold her accountable. Like, I don't get it. You know, it's our own fear, our own unwillingness to choose courage over comfort

that keeps us from holding people accountable. But then we're also freaking enraged and resentful all the time. So then we call people names on Twitter and we are horrible, but we never actually hold people accountable. And you only have to watch someone in an organization do something that's out of order, out of bounds against the rules and not be held accountable to know you can pretty much do whatever you want.

The only prices you might get yelled at or put down. Like there's no accountability. Like follow through. It's like parents who say your kids, man, next time you do that, that's it. And they do it 10 times. like, oh, there's no consequence here. Yeah. Yeah. It's for children not having follow through an accountability instills deep distrust and anxiety in kids because they don't understand what's real and what's not real and there are no guardrails. Yes. I think in organizations,

it just drives disengagement and really gives permission for outrageous behavior. And I think you've seen it politically here over the last four years. Like just no accountability. Yeah. Number seven, I'm open to owning my part. I normally always have a part. Do you? Yes. Even when I'm 100% sure walking in, I don't have one. I totally have one. And sometimes the more sure I am that I have no part. Like sometimes I'll be like, I had zero part in this. But I'm going to ask a question. Yep. I have huge parts. Like in my blind spot. Yeah. Number eight, I can genuinely thank someone for their efforts rather than just criticizing them for their failures.

Are you willing to go in and see a whole person? Yes. And not some bullshit. Hey, thank you for these three things that you do well. Now let me tell you why you suck. But genuinely, being grateful. Yes. Nine, I can talk about how resolving these challenges will lead to growth and opportunity.

And this is where leadership is coach. I can talk about, hey, Barrett, here's a concern I see. it's come up before. I want to dig into it with you. I want to know what I can be doing better. And I think we have a real opportunity to level up if we can figure this out. Yes.

Because them leveling up is only going to level you up. That's right. Yeah. And it's your job as a leader to level up everyone around you. Yes. Ten, I can model the vulnerability and openness that I expect to see from you. Yeah.

Yeah. I think by the time you work through the first nine. Yes, and you're done with your steering wheel. And you're done with the steering wheel and working out your anger, frustration, or fear. And I think that's why, I mean, let's pause and say, how often do you and I roleplay these hard conversations with each other? Oh, yes, totally. I mean, let me tell you all, no bullshit.

I mean, just totally honest, I bet 90% of the time we roll play these. And the way we do it, the way Barrett and I do it and the way I do it with other people, I lead. is I will have them be the person that they have to give feedback to. So they have the opportunity to say all the stuff and react in ways that they're scared about sitting across from. So I'll say, okay, Barrett, you be this person and I'll be you. And then Barrett will say all the things she's afraid of hearing. Yeah. And, you know, it's like these are people's lives.

These are people's how they think about themselves. And hopefully not their self-worth. Hopefully that's not on the line, but sometimes it is. So why wouldn't we take pride as daring leaders in saying, yeah, I practice that stuff? Yeah, I agree. I was in a coaching session one time with someone who reported to me, and she's like, I want to take the ball and I want to run with it. Sometimes I just want to make sure I'm running in the right direction.

And every since she said that, I was like, she deserves to know she's running in the right direction. I mean, she deserves that. Yeah, until, you know, she's halfway down the field and you're like, what are you doing? Why are you down there? Yes. What the hell? Totally. You know?

Yes, it's so familiar. It's so familiar. Yeah. But that's one, and one thing I love about us is that, like, we don't just give feedback when we're sitting down for our big goals meeting. I mean, we do it every day. Every day. We're never surprised in our goals meetings by big things that are getting in the way because we always talk. talking about them. And we expect the people that we lead to be having hard conversations with their

colleagues and their peers. Yes. And to us. And back to us. Yes. Oh, definitely. That's a given. Like, yeah, let me know. What was that like for you? What could I have done better? You seem shut down about how this went. I want to know what this was like for you. Yes. I show up in a way that shut you down. And a lot of times I'll say, listen, I need you to talk to this person about this before the close of business today. This is a fresh thing. Do you want to role play? it? Do you want to talk it through? What do you want to do? Yep. Yeah. Last one, 11, I'm aware of power dynamics, implicit bias, and stereotypes.

And this is so important because we need to think through what am I bringing to the room? What assumptions am I making about people based on race, ethnicity, gender, age? if there's a difference between, there's always difference between people, but if there are identity differences between people, how do I need to be intentional and thoughtful about those? And if you think I don't need to, that's wrong. There are always those issues.

And daring leaders say the unsaid, unsurface what's been pushed down, and bring to light the stuff that's in the shadows in the corners. And so part of this is thinking, how, even if it's just going in with an awareness. Yeah, because I was going to say sometimes the most difficult thing is when someone else brings up something that you don't believe to be their truth, that you don't understand and don't make room for and just kind of close it down so it doesn't happen again.

That's right. That's right. You just shut people down. Yeah. Because it's not how you see the world. Mm-hmm. I think one of the most surefire ways to address this is curiosity and openness. Yeah.

All right. This is the engaged feedback checklist. We'll put it on the episode page. Also, it's on the Deer to Lead Hub, right? Yeah. Can we put the one with all 11 on the episode page? Yeah, let's do it. We'll put the new one on there from the new research.

Clear is kind, y'all, unclear, unkind. And this is like, if this leaves you feeling, you know, just kind of shitty and weird and awkward, it's because just like building muscles, you're going to feel it. It is shitty weird and awkward. Yeah, yeah. And it feels like that. It's because, hey, all it is. But have you ever gotten to the end of one and been like, shit, I wish I wouldn't have done that?

No. No. No, because I don't get to the end and wish I would have done it differently. If I wish I would have done it differently, it's not the end for me. Oh, well, we have mics. How do you drop them? No, yeah, if it's the end and it was. is not good, then I'm going to circle back.

And I'm going to say, I don't like the way I showed up in that meeting or I don't like the way I felt when we left. And if you're willing, I'd like to stick with this until we get to a place that feels good between us, not easy. Yeah. But right. And God, dang, how many marbles did you just get in that jar? Oh, it's a big trust earner.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm pretty, I don't know about fearless, but I'm close to fearless. us around the circle back. Oh, me too. It's like, it's such a gift. Yeah. I think sometimes you earn more trust if you screw it up and circle back than if you would have done it really well. I totally agree. Yeah, not to say that you should screwed up intentionally so you can circle back. But we're all learning together. Yeah. I'll say stuff like, you know, when you replied this way, I said this and I saw something shift in you. I felt like the space between us went from open and curious together to weird. And I just want to check in.

You know, that's it. This is the stuff that can change the world, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Feedback, hard conversations, and feedback is hard conversations. That's it. Barrett, thank you for sharing so much of yourself with us on these two episodes. My pleasure. You can find our episode page on Braybrown.com.

Stay awkward, brave and kind, y'all. Daredeleet is produced by Brne Brown, Education, and Research Group. Music is by The Sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Daredelead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.com.