The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Can We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? with John Green

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Starting point is 00:01:07 Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. Hey there, Adam Grant. Hey, Brunei Brown. I am so in for today. I am locked in and ready. Me too. I am so excited to introduce you to my friend John Green.

Starting point is 00:01:27 He's one of the most generous and generative people on the planet. I think our audience might know him as an award-winning author of The Fulton Our Stars, as well as a new novel this fall, Hollywood ending. We'll get to that. An incredible YouTuber, crash course, as well as vlog brothers with his brother Hank. And a prolific podcaster, most recently throughout the World Cup, co-hosted The Away End, a show about soccer, football, whatever you call it, and of course, life. Bray, meet John Green.

Starting point is 00:01:57 Hi, Renee. What a pleasure. I am such a fan. Oh, I'm such a fan of yours, so it's really nice to meet you, and I'm only a little bit intimidated. That's good, because I'm a lot intimidated, so that's perfect. I had a thousand questions, and Adam was like, rain it in. I want to start with this question. How did you fall in love with football as an American? I mean, Liverpool makes total sense as a fellow red, but how did you fall in love? Well, I played for my middle school soccer team. I have no ability to play football whatsoever. I've never had any talent, but I had a lot of hustle.

Starting point is 00:02:35 The only game I ever started, at halftime, the coach pulled me, and he said to the rest of the team, you know why I started green? At least he tries. And I realized that I was a motivational tool rather than a actual footballer. You're the glue guy. You were the glue guy. I was the glue guy. I was a locker room guy.

Starting point is 00:02:54 And on my middle school soccer team, there was this kid from England named James, and James would tell us about how there was a football culture in England where tens of thousands of people would watch the games together arm and arm and sing songs together. And he told us that the best soccer team in the whole world was Liverpool Football Club. And we believed him. And here we are. Smart kid. Smart kid. Yeah. This is the missing piece, I guess, in my life.

Starting point is 00:03:23 because I played soccer for 10 years growing up, but I did not have a James. And so I didn't realize it was a sport we could follow. Yeah, I mean, back then, you know, I was just talking with a friend of mine from high school about how we used to get these VHS tapes of like old Champions League games from, you know, 10 years earlier in the 1990s and we would watch them in our boarding school TV room. And that was the only way we could keep up with soccer. There was no, like, you know, obviously no TV deals back then. You were on delay.

Starting point is 00:03:53 Now, we were very much on delay. Taped delay. On serious tape delay. This is when you needed the polymarket. This is when you needed to be like, here's how I think this is going to go in the first half. Okay. How many games did you attend during the World Cup? I only attended one.

Starting point is 00:04:12 I saw the U.S. play Australia with my son. And that was very special for me because when I was 16, my dad took me to the World Cup in 1994. and we got to see the Netherlands play Morocco. It was one of the biggest thrills of my life. And then to take my son when he was 16 to see the U.S. play was just really, really, it was just an extraordinary feeling. We won the game, but it was almost an afterthought to me because the main thing was walking to the stadium with tens of thousands of fans. Football is so different in the United States than it was in 1994. The vibe is so different.

Starting point is 00:04:50 vibe around the U.S. national team is so different, both men's and women's national teams. And it just felt amazing to be in that community. Because that's what football is ultimately about or any sport, right? It's about community. It's not about what happens on the field. It's not about getting a ball over a line. It's about the relationships that you build through orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people. I love that phrase, orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people. I think this speaks to something that you said, John, that of all the unimportant things, football is the most important. Why? Yeah, to be clear, I stole that from Pope John Paul II. I didn't come up with that line.

Starting point is 00:05:30 Wait. Wait. Yeah. I thought I recognized that, followed by Peace Be with you. And also with you. Yeah, no, I stole that. But it is true, I think. You know, of all the unimportant things it's the most important because of the way we choose to care about it collectively, right? Like almost nothing is going to be watched or cared about by most people on Earth. But I can talk to friends from Sierra Leone to Australia about the World Cup. And they're all watching. They're all engaged. They're all following along. And to me, that sense of truly the world attending to one thing at the same time is just so magical. Like, I know we can only have it every four years, but I wish we could have it more often that sense that we're all together in something.

Starting point is 00:06:27 This is like my theory about why it would be good if we had an alien invasion. Totally, Brunay, because we would all immediately unify. Yes, I've been thinking about that since I was little. Like, it's the boundary object thing, Adam. It's like if we just introduce something to the triad, it would really help my name. anxiety, I think, to focus togetherness against a common enemy. I do wonder, and this is something I think about with football a lot and also the rest of my life, is it possible to create a really inclusive us without creating a them, without the alien invaders? Yes.

Starting point is 00:07:02 Is it possible to build a community that doesn't need to define itself in opposition to another community? And often in soccer, it's not, right? Like Liverpool fans hate Manchester, United, Manchester, United fans hate Liverpool. and like, and that's part of how we define ourselves as a community. But I'm also really interested in uses that don't require them. I mean, my heart says yes. History would say no, but my heart definitely says yes.

Starting point is 00:07:28 I just wonder, Adam, it's interesting. I'd love to throw this to you for an answer. I wonder if this is going to be so random, but I, because you're John Green, I can do this. I think you can ping with me. It reminds me of the chimpanzee. Anzi Wars that we've been talking about, Adam, that like, is there something neurobiologically hardwired in us that we define us by them? Like, is this just so deeply ingrained in what it means to be a social species? I don't know. I, gosh, I really hope the answer is no,

Starting point is 00:08:04 but I think your instinct is right that the answer points toward yes. I mean, Darwin wrote about this. He wrote that tribes of altruistic people would actually outlast tribes of selfish people because they would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the group and then the group would survive. But that was a tribe, right? That was a group of people who shared your interests and who were defending themselves against an outgroup. And I don't know where this goes with chimps, but I've been reading some research on infants, which shows that before they can even talk, they will discriminate against outgroup puppets that don't like the same food as they do.

Starting point is 00:08:43 And so they're already starting to perceive group boundaries of, if you like goldfish crackers, we're on the goldfish team, and we do not like the broccoli eaters. And so that seems to be very visceral and very early learned. I don't think that means we can't overcome it, though. And John, I would love to hear you talk about how do we build a we or us that doesn't require a event? Yeah, me too.

Starting point is 00:09:05 Well, I do think it's possible, but I think we do have to go in knowing that we're inclined toward creating out groups, right? Like, we have to go into anything knowing that. I remember when we first started making YouTube videos back in 2007, we defined ourselves initially in opposition to popular people. Like, we were nerds, and the popular people were the other people. And then some people were like, actually, I have a lot of friends in school, and I want to be one of you? Is that possible? And I was like, oh, right, we're like totally excluding people who are socially well adjusted. That's not fair of us at all. Like, they're people too. I have observed that it is possible. It is possible to create communities that are productive and do good work together that don't define themselves

Starting point is 00:09:57 in opposition to other communities. But I do think that it's an inclination we have and that we need to be conscious of. You know what I would put forward into this that makes me a little bit hopeful. I don't think it's our hardwiring to hate that drives this propensity. I think it's our yearning to belong. And those are two different things, right? I don't think that we're looking for an outgroup on which to project our misery, our despair, our anger, our rage. I think it is belonging means so much to us that we try to secure it by the creation of those who don't belong. Because really, in my work, I think what I found is love and belonging are irreducible needs of all people. And I would add connection. And in absence of those things, there's always suffering.

Starting point is 00:10:54 So I think we actually protect against our own suffering by creating outgroups, is to enhance our own sense of belonging, not because we love the sense of pushing others out. Does that make sense at all? Yeah, it really does. Yes, and I have to build on it. It reminds me of Maryland Brewer's research on how most prejudice is not driven by out-group hate, but rather by in-group love. We end up favoring our own kind and then kind of leaving out or excluding people who don't belong. And, John, it sounds like that's a version of what you ended up doing when your nerds left maybe they're socially skilled and I don't know it sounds like you might have left jocks behind too yeah which was really unfortunate I think we we still underrepresent on the on the jock front

Starting point is 00:11:42 that's why you did a football podcast yeah there are some pretty hardcore nerd fighter jocks but they tend to they tend to look at sports in a very nerdy way and so do I I mean I I see sports as like a community building exercise more than an athletic one yeah I mean same it's it's I'm I'm totally into it. If it involves a pitch, an oval, a field, or a ball, or a pool, I'm into it. But I'm just there for the collective effervescence. I mean, I do like the athleticism and the team dynamics. But I think that's why Liverpool, I've been a fan for 15 years. I just think it's the story, the tragedy, the overcoming. I just think it's huge. I'm curious, is the John that started the story? this intense podcasting during the World Cup this year.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Is the John that started it, the same John that wrapped it at the end? Is there anything in you that shifted or changed? I think a lot shifted in me. I mean, I've always kind of dated my life by the World Cup, right? Like, starting in 1994, when I went with my dad, I think about where I was in 98, where I was in 2002, like how I was doing in my life. And this World Cup will be the one that I enjoyed with my friends from high school for the first time since 1994, because the person I hosted the away end with Daniel Alarcon is a Peruvian

Starting point is 00:13:06 novelist, but also my friend from high school. And it was produced by our friend Sean, who was a groomsman in my wedding, and I've known since I was 14 years old. And that depth of connection, one of the great joys of adulthood. And I remember being young, like being in my early 20s and thinking this adulthood business is just terrible and it's going to be a nightmare the whole time. But one of the great joys of being an adult is you can't possibly know when you're 20 what it's like to have a friend for 35 years. No. And it's so wonderful.

Starting point is 00:13:45 So that's what I'll remember is the depth of connection that you feel to someone you've known since you were 14. I feel like I could almost start crying. This is what your work does to me. This is what your fiction does to me And this is what your nonfiction does to me I have not thought in my whole life I might cry until this second

Starting point is 00:14:04 Why I was doing a podcast with Roger Bennett On the Minam Blazers podcast on the World Cup And he said, I know you're a big SEC football fan Which one is better? And I said, I just can't rank them I just can't do it And now I understand why Because I have a friend, Eleanor, Who is my first best friend in life

Starting point is 00:14:23 We met when we were four in kindergarten and Holy Name of Jesus, New Orleans. And she is a big Ole Miss person, and I'm a big UT person. And I remember a moment earlier this spring when I was holding her first grandbaby. And we're still friends five decades later. Right. And I don't know that SEC football means anything to me beyond that. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:14:49 Do you know what I mean? Totally. That's exactly right. that like it's a vector through which you experience friendship. It's a means to connection, a means to love, a means to community. And those friendships are just, adulthood in general is so underrated. Agreed. Those friendships are just magic, you know?

Starting point is 00:15:10 And you can't know the pleasure of having, like, I'm wearing shoes that have fit for 15 years. They fit so good. And you can't know that when you're 15 years old. And you can't describe it. There's no poetry that is appropriate for describing it. Well, I have a similar, I guess a question that's parallel to the one earlier about, can we have an us without a them? I want to know, can we have those kinds of friendships without the sports? Because I will say, I've had a similar experience to both of you. I think I've reconnected on a deeper level with one of my childhood best friends by the resurgence

Starting point is 00:15:46 of the Detroit Lions than almost anything else we've done together. And I hadn't followed the lion since I gave up on them after Barry Sanders retired, but I'm back and I'm all in, and it gives us an excuse to text and talk every week. But I'm always wondering, does it have to be sports? We talk about movies and shows and books, too. But something that sports does, I think, Brene, you described it as collective effervescence. And I think it's really hard to replicate that in other domains, but I think we need more ways to replicate that. And I would love to hear both of you talk about that. I'm following John Green on this one, baby. Okay. chance I'm going first. All right. Great. I'll go first then. I absolutely think it's possible. I think that a lot

Starting point is 00:16:28 of friendships and relationships in general need shared projects. Like my mom and I share a garden. My mom lives next door to me and yet we don't see each other that often except that we see each other all the time in the garden because we work on the garden together. My brother and I work together on online video and have for 20 years and that's kept us close. I don't think it needs to be sports, but I think it needs to be a shared project. And I also think, like, sports is ultimately sort of a soap opera, and so it can also be Love Island, right? Like, it can also be American Idol.

Starting point is 00:17:00 It can be all kinds of things. But sports is really good at it for whatever reason. But I don't think it's unique. I think the important thing is finding some kind of shared project together. One thing that's unique about sports is that you don't have to like collaborating with the other person to treat it as a shared project, right? You start to garden and all of this. sudden, you realize I like this person, but I do not like working with them. And the same happens

Starting point is 00:17:27 when you take on all kinds of creative projects, right? Sports, you can each watch in your own way and then come together without stepping on each other's toes. That's true. You know what I think is really interesting is I have a 20-year-old son and the sheer joy. And I don't use, I use that word, it's not happiness, it's joy as we hit August. And they start talking about their fantasy leagues and they start coming up with their punishment, you know, 24-hour waffle house, a pancake every five minutes. But that's a project. Like, they're going to collectively abandon the person who wins who auto-drafted. And I don't think it has to be sports, but I do think it has to be something.

Starting point is 00:18:13 I'm going to go really far out here into kind of management work. But I do think there has to be something that gives you the opportunity to kind of go through the form, storm, norm. There's got to be something that has challenge and growth. And this is where the collaboration stuff gets hard. I agree because that gets hard. But I do think about, I don't think it has to be explicit. So for an example, with Eleanor, who's my longest lifetime friend, again, 50 years, our project is the pain and agony and absolute sheer enjoyment of adult

Starting point is 00:18:58 children and how we work through that together. And do you intervene when you can play how the story is going to end or do you sit back and just let it go? P.S. The answer is, yeah, I've got to sit back and let it go. It sucks for sure. But that's our project. I don't look forward to that at all. That sounds really hard. Watching kids adulting in this culture today, you have to be mindful actually sometimes of despair, which is a really hard emotion for me. Because when I get into it, I have a hard time pulling out.

Starting point is 00:19:34 But I think watching adult kids today grapple with the world is a project that I'm grateful I have a lifelong friend. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. absolutely because it's hard not to feel despair at 48 when you look at the amount of suffering and injustice in the world. And if I were half my age, it would be almost impossible. And so there's that. But there's also the challenges of being a young adult. I remember I had this great Polish doctor in Chicago. And one time she left the room when I was like 24. and she left my chart open.

Starting point is 00:20:17 And of course, I looked at my chart. And the first thing I saw was patient as a low-functioning young adult. And I was a low-functioning young adult. And I wasn't offended or anything. I was like, yeah, she knows. And it's really, really hard. It's really hard to function as a young adult, you know? Because you don't have those secure relationships.

Starting point is 00:20:40 You don't have the shoes that have fit for 15 years. You don't have the friend for. 50 years. And so it's really, really hard and how much harder in a world where the injustice and suffering are so front and center for us. I think that's true. And I think one of the things that came up in a lot of the research that we were doing is that perspective is a function of experience. And so to have to navigate life without understanding how the shoes fit or how the friendships are going to go. You don't have that experience to lend. Like, asking kids to have perspective is almost a cruel thing. Right. Because you don't have the experience to understand that the fact

Starting point is 00:21:29 that you got the locker under your greatest op in seventh grade, like, have some perspective, kid. No, you don't. That is their world. Yeah. I mean, that's why I love. writing about young people is because there's an intensity to doing all that stuff for the first time that when it's absolutely unprecedented that you just can't have perspective. You can't have any distance from the story. You can't have any sense that you're looking back because you're not, you know, there's nothing to look back on yet. And so I really love the ways in which when we do something for the first time, it doesn't just feel unprecedented in our lives. It feels unprecedented. resented in like all of human history.

Starting point is 00:22:15 God. Like the second time you fall in love, you're like, this is great. This is amazing. It's a little bit like the first time. The first time you fall in love, you're like, wow. You know what? And it's, you know, that I think this is something about your books that very few people, if any, can grab onto.

Starting point is 00:22:37 Like, you, like, you reach through people's bodies and grab their hearts and give them a good squeeze in a way that I'm like, fuck you, John Green. Just to be honest. But let me tell you what I think is wild. Is, don't, I swear I'm going to cry. The first time you watch your kid get their heartbroken. You know, that's not something that's inside of your personal history. Because you've had your heartbroken.

Starting point is 00:23:13 but watching your kid get their heartbroken, you know what it feels like to not make the team. To watch your kid not make the team and walk in the back door and collapse on the floor. Like, and I just was wondering at what age would I get to the seconds of everything for a little salvation, but it hasn't happened yet. So do you know what I mean? Totally. It is the worst kind of empathic to stress because you know what the heartbreak feels like.

Starting point is 00:23:48 You remember what it was like the first time you went through it. And you're watching your kid who you're supposed to protect go through this and you feel totally helpless to do anything about it. It's awful. And you've been told as a parent that your whole job and you feel as a parent that your whole job is to try to save them from suffering, to try to save them from discomfort. And there's just nothing you can do, you know. And the desire to say like, well, one day, you'll remember this as, you know, a pretty minor setback in the road is there, but that's, of course, the absolute wrong thing to do because that, you know, minimizes what is for them

Starting point is 00:24:26 the most profound pain imaginable. Yeah, it's, it's parenting, man, is so much harder than, than I ever thought it would be. But also, like, way more interesting than I ever thought it would be. You know, it's interesting, you know, who really helped me with that? And I don't know that I've done it. I don't know that I've executed against the Buddhist wisdom very well, but it's been helpful. As Pema Chodron talked about compassion, having the ability to sit in the darkness with others. And so one of the things I always worked with my therapist when, you know, even now with my kids is don't rush to flip on the light, sit with them in the darkness. But that goes against every, parental instinct that I have. Right. You know, just to sit with them in the dark. Yeah, I remember before I was a writer, my first life, I was a chaplain at a children's hospital and thought I was going to become an Episcopal minister. And my chaplaincy supervisor said, don't just do something, stand there. It's profound. Wow. I mean, what a great metaphor for what it means to be supportive. of somebody else.

Starting point is 00:25:42 Yeah. It reminds me of Ico Bathia was we had her on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, or we had a recording of a coaching session she did with me at a conference, and she said coaching is in the being, not the doing. Mm. Mm. Yeah. And I didn't know we shared in common.

Starting point is 00:25:59 I have to say I didn't know we shared in common, the Episcopal priest path, which I have thought about my entire life. It's not too late, Bray. second career baby you know i deliberately didn't mention that i was avoiding the topic because i didn't want you to nerd out no no i think that i have uh i have maybe perhaps burned that bridge but i still run a backburner film of it every now and then yeah it's the big sliding doors moment of my life but after chaplaincy i just couldn't see myself working from i just couldn't do it it's too hard i never got to the sliding door moment but i can't imagine that the being on the platform

Starting point is 00:26:38 where that sliding door opened and close being in a children's hospital. Jesus. Yeah, it was really hard. I mean, I was only 22, so I didn't know what I didn't know. But, you know, I was conscious of the fact that it wasn't nearly as hard for me as it was for the people I was trying to accompany, but it was still pretty, pretty hard. Yeah, but John, you do yourself a disservice when you describe it as a sliding doors moment because you are a chaplain to all of your readers. You're a chaplain to all your viewers and listeners, right? You're doing the same kind of accompanying work by telling stories and sharing experiences that other people can relate to and see themselves in and often find solace and wisdom. And I am often left reeling that, like, oh, John Green again made me feel

Starting point is 00:27:27 something deeply that I normally just prefer to think deeply. Hmm. Like, ah, foiled. That is, that is your, I'm going, it's so good that you know that about yourself, Adam. I want to personally thank you, John Green. No, no, Brunet's thank you for it, and I'm saying, screw you for doing it to me. And she appreciates that you do it for me.

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Starting point is 00:28:53 I've been asked over and over. A question about the choices I've made, the colors of my hair, the things in the world I've spoken about, and the things that I haven't. I've heard this question asked so many different ways, but it always came down to, why are you like this?

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Starting point is 00:29:36 and to the person on the other side of the mic, not to tell us their answer or read from their script, but to take us on their journey. Check out my new show, Why Are You Like This, on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Thursday. You know, this whole discussion of young adults and the difficulty of being under stress and pressure

Starting point is 00:30:01 in the world we live in, this actually brings me back to the World Cup because the whole world is watching, not just players in their 20s and 30s, but some teenagers, too, who are on stage. And I know Bray and I were both blown away by the open discussions we saw of mental health throughout the World Cup, how freely players talked about going to therapy and seeking help. And we would be remiss if we did not talk about this. Yeah, it's a huge shift, very different from when I was a kid.

Starting point is 00:30:34 I mean, I was diagnosed fairly early with depression. when I was a teenager and went to therapy and started taking medication and stuff. And that was very radical for the 1990s. It was essential for my survival. And I'm very, very grateful that I got diagnosed when I did, but it was also really rare. And now it's great to see, especially these young people who so many young people look up to talking about it openly and saying I go to therapy and talking about why and talking about the benefits that they experience. I will say that it sort of shines a light for me on the fact that access to mental health care is still really dependent upon privilege. These are people who have the money to go to therapy, which a lot of folks don't. But I

Starting point is 00:31:23 really commend them for talking about it so openly. Who can imagine the pressure of taking a penalty kick in the World Cup? I couldn't even get the ball over the line without a goalkeeper in the goal. And so I think, you know, the courage. that takes is something we do really need to credit and celebrate. In prepping for this, I tried to pull as many of the references that I could of players who spoke openly, from Jude Bellingham to Torres on the Spain team, people really saying, I see a therapist. I almost quit the game until I saw a therapist. Really, there's just no one I wanted to talk about this more.

Starting point is 00:32:07 with you, John, for a lot of reasons. And I'm going to try to do probably a terrible job of bringing this back to tuberculosis everywhere. But I thought there was a really big thread there. And this is kind of the thread. So we have these players that have 30, 40, 50 million followers talking openly about help seeking, openly about mental health issues. So then my question became, does that help? And I go into the research and find that it helps with awareness, but not really. It doesn't help change behaviors because what actually changes behaviors is a frictionless path to help. Access.

Starting point is 00:32:59 Access. And this is where I get into tuberculosis everywhere is because, is give me the line so I don't murder it about the cure exists where the illness isn't. Yeah, the cure is where the disease is not and the disease is where the cure is not. Right. And how much of this is about, not that we don't know how to help, the political will to help. Yeah. Access, privilege. I mean, I just saw a through line from your book there. Do you see it at all? Here's what we know. Like, we know that even in really well-funded campaigns,

Starting point is 00:33:36 around mental health that involve celebrities and athletes, a year after those campaigns stop, there's almost negligible difference because when people do pick up the phone, there's not a frictionless path. There's no access. Yeah. Do you see what I'm trying to draw the connection?

Starting point is 00:33:52 Oh, absolutely. I mean, a couple years ago, I had a mental health crisis and I called the doctor, the psychiatrist, and the office was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know. Like, I'm in the middle of a mental health crisis. I don't know what I wanted to do. Like, tell me what I'm supposed to do. Like, tell me what to do. Tell me, how, who do I see and when? Like, help me. And if I can't navigate that system, with all the, you know,

Starting point is 00:34:19 good fortune that I have, how can we ask other people to navigate it? With tuberculosis, we have the cure. We've had the cure since the 1950s. We know how to cure the disease. And we basically choose not to cure it by preventing people from accessing the cure, making it too expensive, making it so that people have to pay for travel to come get their medicine every single day rather than once a month, things like that. And those structures that we have built, their human-built structures, make it so that there isn't that frictionless access. I think that's so true. Like, that's what we need to cure both the mental health crisis and tuberculosis crisis. It's such a compelling connection. It makes me think, John, there's a sequel waiting to be written to everything is tuberculosis, which is everything is access.

Starting point is 00:35:07 Everything is opportunity. Wow. Everything is opportunity. That's so true. To the point of having been a low-functioning young adult, I was given all kinds of help when I was a low-functioning young adult so that I could become sort of a medium-functioning middle-aged guy, right? And if I hadn't had all that help, like I remember one time my boss came to me and I was working in a magazine and my boss came to me and she said, the HR people say you're cashing your checks at the grocery. store. And I was like, yeah, how else are you going to do it? And she was like, well, you need a bank account, John. And I was like, yeah, but I don't have an ID. So I don't have a bank account.

Starting point is 00:35:45 And she was like, all right, well, I guess we're going to go get you an ID during our lunch break. And she took me and we got an ID. And then she took me to the bank the next day and we got a bank account. And like, I say we did that because there was no way I could do it by myself. I was too, I couldn't do that. I just wasn't, I wasn't up for it. I didn't know how to navigate that system. I didn't, you know, I just didn't know. And if it hadn't been for that person, I would have kept cashing my checks at the grocery store and paying, you know, whatever, 10, 15% off the top. Totally. And I just, I think so much is about frictionless access, so much of life, not just health care, so much of navigating the systems that we have built around everything.

Starting point is 00:36:28 And I love the fact that you're pointing out, it's systemic, because you had someone that walked you to get the ID that then is required to go to the bank and then is required to do this and then is required to set up the direct deposit and then, you know, like, you just keep using the word systems. We have to take responsibility for the fact that we've built that which makes it impossible. Exactly. You know, the other thing that I would feel ethically remiss to not call out from this research was really shocking to me in addition to frictionless access is in sports specifically starting young coaches are the answer and the biggest obstacle to mental health help so when you have a coach that

Starting point is 00:37:27 constantly talks about it as important, normalizes it, there is help seeking. The majority of players, and this is from studies done across different sports and the Olympics, it is the number one people that athletes want to keep the information away from, is their coach. And it's the number one person that makes it accessible and reduces friction if they're willing to do it. And so if you're out there and you're a coach and you're listening, which I know we do have a lot of sports coaches that listen because Adam and I do a lot of work in that area, it's a big responsibility and a big opportunity. You are the biggest barrier and you are the greatest hope. I think it's really important to name that. Yeah. Yeah, John, this makes me wonder about your

Starting point is 00:38:18 middle school soccer or football coach. You said you realized you're were a motivational tool earlier. But I also wonder if you were something bigger than just that, if you were also an opportunity for the team to talk about how talent is not the only thing that matters, or what we're all going to do to support each other. I don't know how much you remember about that coach, but I'm just wondering if there are dots to connect to what Bray was saying and that formative experience of yours. He was certainly not a coach who would tell you to seek mental health. Nicely done, John.

Starting point is 00:38:57 But he was a good coach. He was a good coach. He was a good coach in a lot of ways. But I think the sort of positive spin on what he was saying is there's this great basketball player, T.J. McConnell for the Indianapolis Pacers. And he's known as a guy who doesn't have the size. He doesn't have the speed. He doesn't have this.

Starting point is 00:39:15 But he plays really hard. And what he says is playing hard is a skill. If it wasn't, everyone would do it. And I did play really, really hard. Like, I jumped for every ball. I played hard. I still play hard. And I think maybe the positive spin is he was saying, look, playing hard is a skill and this guy has it and the rest of you should try to learn it.

Starting point is 00:39:40 I mean, we've all seen teams that have a ton of talent. No glue, no effort. As a sports really maniac, I would never trust a team full of talent and no glue and no hard ethic skill. Yeah, that's why they need me in the locker room, Brunei, the glue guy. It's not too late for me. It's not too late. Pick me, Potch. I'm ready. I'm ready. Put him in.

Starting point is 00:40:06 I was going to try to recruit you to the Sixers, but then LeBron just signed, so I feel like we're full. All right. Should we rapid fire, John? Great. Yeah, I think it's lightning round time. You want to start? No, you start. Okay. John, what's one thing you're deeply curious about right now? Colora. I'm really interested in cholera, this disease that continues to kill over 100,000 people a year, even though it's been eliminated from most rich countries.

Starting point is 00:40:33 Wow. Wow. You know you're an Oregon Trail generation member one. That's right. That's right. But it's not just an Oregon Trail problem, Adam. It's a present tense problem. So I'm very interested in cholera and water supply in general. Like it's another system where we're seeing the failures really laid bare. Wow. I mean, globally, really scary. Water. Water is such a big deal. And public health and water, the intersection of those two things. Exactly, yeah. And that's not just a problem. You don't have to go to a poor country to see challenges with underfunded public health care systems.

Starting point is 00:41:15 No. And I'll leave that there. And it's getting worse with this administration. I mean, like my husband's a pediatrician. And when we were talking about the recent outbreak of, tell me what it is. The lettuce one. What is it, Adam? Cyclop.

Starting point is 00:41:29 Cyclop sport. We all know. We all know. Everybody knows. Yeah. You can't even. bring up measles with my husband. You just really, you just have to bring it up and run for your life.

Starting point is 00:41:37 But, you know, what I would say, like, tell me what's going on with this lettuce. And he's like, don't worry. It's not funded anymore, but there are two guys on Reddit who have it figured out. And, you know, he's just so frustrated about the simultaneous, the growing crisis juxtapose with the just slashing of funding. Yeah. No, it's terrible. Hard.

Starting point is 00:41:59 All right, my activist friends, I got to rein this in for the, for the rapid fire round. Go. All right, John, here's our next quick question. You've probably been to curiosity shops at various points in your life. If you got to design the wildest, wackiest, weirdest curiosity shop,

Starting point is 00:42:16 what would you put in it? It already exists. It's the world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. So this person will take the world's largest ball of twine and recreate it on a very small

Starting point is 00:42:33 scale and then sell that. That is brilliant. The world's largest collection of the world's smallest versions of the world's largest objects. I mean, um, chef's kiss. No, Chef's Kiss, because I've never heard anything more John Green in my life. I know, I know. So true. I mean, if you were a thing, you would be that thing. Okay. What is one thing you're deeply grateful for right now. Oh, my family. My family. Yeah. Just the regular rhythm of summertime with the family is pretty special. And I know that it's fleeting. My son is 16 now. So it's, we only got a couple more years of it like this. So I'll miss it. God. I'm not going to say anything because it's just going to be sad. But it's like, don't spoil it for me, Brunay. No, I'm just saying, uh, don't blink. I know. I know. Well, it's going to happen anyway.

Starting point is 00:43:31 going to go so fast. It already has gone so fast. Yeah. Oh, I don't want to take us on a tangent here, but anticipatory nostalgia is something that I was never warned is part of watching your kids grow up. Totally. My wife, the first time we ever had lunch, we went to the same high school and I was talking about high school. And then I was talking about when my book was going to come out because I just finished a draft of my first book and just sold it. And my wife's now wife at the time, friend said imagining the future is a kind of nostalgia. And I was like, oh my God, you're so cool. I mean, she was coming on hard for you. She was, I mean, look, she met you and she worked that line for like hours. And she knew that would seal the deal because again, it worked. John Green is an

Starting point is 00:44:25 adjective in our house. That is a John Green seduction line. If I have. ever heard one. It was very effective. In fact, I put it in, I put it in my first novel. I went home and put it in the book and then asked her later if I could use it. That's your love language, dude. It is. Give me lines for my books. John, I hope you proposed. I hope you proposed to Sarah the next day. No, no, no, it was a little while longer, Adam. I was a little more cautious than that. Plus, he had to gather more quotes, obviously. She was killing it. Okay, I have to ask this rapid fire because I'm always get anxious when you've got a new book coming out.

Starting point is 00:45:06 I just have to like gear up, let my therapist know I'm going into a John Green period. She's like, great, I'm short on cash. Tell us about the new book. You got to tell us. Yeah, so the new book is called Hollywood Ending. It's my first book for adults, my first novel for adults. And it's about two people in their early 20s who are in a movie together. And the movie starts to get a lot of attention.

Starting point is 00:45:29 It's about the last year of Andy Warhol's life. And it starts to get a lot of attention. And it gets a lot of attention. Their lives also start to blow up in ways that are really intoxicating, but also really difficult. And it's really about how we survive trauma, how we survive what we need to survive, and how we find the love that helps us survive it. Can I ask one question about the comma? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:51 Yeah. So there's a comma in the title, Hollywood comma, ending. I was like, screw you, John Green. It's said in 2019 when I do think Hollywood was comma ending a little bit, or a certain kind of Hollywood was comma ending. But also, yes, it is meant to be there to complicate the idea of a Hollywood ending. That is so you, dude. It is. And having done an early peak at the beginning of the book, as I resist the temptation to read the whole thing instead of preparing for this conversation, I mean, it is vintage John Green.

Starting point is 00:46:24 It's for adults. It's for young adults. And it's, I already have tons of questions about the characters that I'm not going to ask you right now. What I'm going to ask you instead is, you're going to do a big fall tour for Hollywood ending. We'll put the locations and dates and the show notes for any of our fans who want to come see you in action, which I can say from experience. It's a very special thing to live through. And, John, you have a remarkable ability to create the kind of collective effervescence that now all of us are missing post-world cup. Thank you, Adam. You've earned it. You're about. to embark on this tour. What are you most excited for? You know, every time you're in a room like that, that's the only time that group of people will ever be together. And it's so fleeting, it's so beautiful. That's what I'm looking forward to, is being in those literally unique, unprecedented rooms and talking about stuff that matters with people I care about. So beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming to the Curiosity Shop. Could you even build Adam a curiosity shop that didn't have John Green in it?

Starting point is 00:47:31 I mean, I don't think so. Like, if you were a shop, that's what you would be. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Just such a pleasure to meet you. It's so weird that we've never met, but I'm glad we have now. Great pleasure to meet you, too. I can report to all the Brunei fans out there that Bray is just as lovely as you would expect,

Starting point is 00:47:50 and so is Adam. So what a joy to be with y'all today and what a gift both of your work is in my life. So thank you. Right back at you. And we can't put you in a curiosity shop, John, because too many people would line up and you wouldn't be able to get in the door. It's true. It's kind. Thanks, John. Thanks, y'all. Hey, and go Liverpool this fall. Go Liverpool. We're going to do something extraordinary this year. I can feel it. I'm so ready. How much do you love, John Green? On a scale from 1 to 10, 11. Yeah. Off the scale.

Starting point is 00:48:24 Same. It's not fair that he's real. No, we could have gone down the Episcopal priest route. Like, it's really good you rained us in. I really tried to hide that. I was like, oh, no, they could go there. It all makes sense to me now. You know, when I was prepping for this, everything I read was like, oh, this makes sense.

Starting point is 00:48:40 Oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense. All of it makes sense. There's one thing I have to quibble with, though, which is he called himself a medium-functioning adult. if John Green is medium functioning, the rest of us are in a lot of trouble. Oh my God. I hated every second when he said that. I was like, I can't rank against that dude. Like, that is like, if that's where you are, I'm in trouble. I feel like he has all these identities that could each be a full-time job.

Starting point is 00:49:06 And he's the kindest, most thoughtful, most creative person on earth doing that thing. And then he's doing several other them too. How do you do it all? What I think is interesting about his work is his ability to, it's that great definition of creativity that I love, the ability to connect the seemingly unconnectable. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. I just think we were lucky to get to talk to him about so many different things. And, you know, as a, I don't know what this means.

Starting point is 00:49:39 And I get criticized for saying this a lot. But as a reluctant public person, the Hollywood ending book, I think is going to be tough. And people are like, there's no such. thing is a reluctant public person. But I would say you're kind of one too, right? Very much so. Yeah, I think we both are in different ways. Like maybe by reluctant, I think I don't get a lot out of that part of my work, but I'm invested in my work having impact. And then that means sometimes I have to be the vessel for my work, but I'm not cut out for it because I'm a little bit tenderhearted and private. And I just don't know how to do it very well sometimes. But, you know, I'm a little bit tender-hearted.

Starting point is 00:50:16 But I'm excited for Hollywood ending. I think it's going to be a tough read for those of us in that position. Or for any of us trying to, I saw something this weekend that, for some reason, tied me straight to John's new book from Kate Bowler that said, thinking about those of y'all who are spending your time, being grateful for the moments you're in, not trying to capture them for an audience who will be grateful for them. You know? Yes. And I was just like, wow. When he said all of us are public people to some degree right now,

Starting point is 00:50:51 it made me think of that quote from Kate Bowler. Yeah, just being in the moments and not capturing them for an audience, but being in them, it's powerful. Spot on. I read a paper a few years ago that actually tried to document this empirically where I think if I remember correctly, people were randomly assigned to be in an experience and either take a photo or a selfie or not. and the people who captured it actually enjoyed the experience less.

Starting point is 00:51:18 They literally took themselves out of it in order to preserve the memory for the future and miss out on the present. And I remember reading that research and thinking, what is the point of capturing it for the future if there's no emotion felt during it? It might as well be a picture of somebody else because you weren't there. I'm kind of breathless about that. And I know intuitively it's true. Can I tell you a quick parenting story? Please. I always love parenting stories, especially from you.

Starting point is 00:51:43 Ellen and I were at Herman Park, which is kind of the medical center in Houston, and I used to pick the kids up from school all the time and take them either to the train that went around the zoo at Herman Park or sometimes we would feed the ducks. And, you know, what are those things called that you ride, where you, the bicycle and these little boat? Oh, the pedal boats. Petal boat, yeah. And we were in the pedal boat, and it was just a random day after school. And I looked over it and her face was really scrunched up. And I said, Ellen, are you okay? And she didn't answer.

Starting point is 00:52:17 And immediately, I was like, Ellen, Ellen, are you okay? And, you know, I wasn't peddling. We were just floating. And I said, what's going on? And she said, I'm good. I'm just making a picture memory. And I said, what? And she said, I'm just making a picture memory of right now.

Starting point is 00:52:34 So when things are harder later, I can remember this. And it was so striking to me that sometimes if I'm, in a moment and I want to get out my phone, I'll just say, just make a picture, close your eye, make a picture memory. You know, and so when you talk about that research, I think there's a difference between bringing out a device and capturing it because inherently in that, you're either thinking about an audience that's going to see that picture, but a picture memory sometimes is even more powerful to me.

Starting point is 00:53:08 Does that make sense? I don't know how to describe it. It does. It does. it oh i i love that image so much i want to take a picture of that right now just close your eyes and capture that i think yeah i mean you're not your your interaction isn't now happening through a device it's actually happening in your head and your heart which makes it much more meaningful and oh it's beautiful and the fact that it's not physically or digitally preserved i think that's

Starting point is 00:53:39 part of what makes it pointed that only you can can conjure it. Oh, it's the conjuring. It's beautiful. All right, before we head off, let me ask you first, what are you taking away from the conversation and what are you going to keep thinking about? I think my biggest takeaway is that I need to find more shared projects for some of the relationships that I care about. That right now, we're kind of catching up on each other's lives as opposed to, you know, rooting for the same thing or being part of the same thing. And I want to work on that. What am I thinking about? I really, I think we need a whole body of research on the question of how do you build an us without a them. I think that is maybe the question of our time. How about you?

Starting point is 00:54:25 Oh, that's my takeaway. I have two takeaways. One is how do you build an us without of them and how do you define an us without of them? And because I think the defining is part of the problem. And then my second one is no matter what we do when we're trying to help people, we always need to think about frictionless access. Yes. You know, like is such a big part that we can bring into awareness, but if awareness is not followed by the ability to action, something with minimum friction, awareness fades.

Starting point is 00:55:01 So important and paradoxically, it also brings to mind that that line that John, unrelated about don't just do something, stand there. Yes. You and I are both, we have such a bias toward action. We like to do things. We like to solve. We like to fix.

Starting point is 00:55:19 And I'm going to hear that echoing in my head every time my kids bring me a problem. Don't just do something. Stand there. And I think with your prompt, it's stand there in the dark. Yeah. Don't turn on the light yet. And that's still to this day, ooh, I have to fight a lot of fixer in me to do it. but it's really, I think teaching our kids especially how to be in pain is a gift, but

Starting point is 00:55:46 it's a tough one. John Green, thank you for introducing us and thank you for bringing them on The Curiosity Shop. What a gift. Always. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brunet Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. Fox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Can We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? with John Green

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