The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Leading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe

Episode Date: August 6, 2026

What does it take to stay calm when millions are watching? Rebecca Lowe, the host of NBC’s Premier League coverage and Fox’s record-breaking 2026 World Cup broadcast, joins Brené Brown and Adam Grant to explore why preparation—not confidence—is her real superpower; the weight of being one of the only women in the room; and what it really means to lead when things get chaotic. Together, they unpack the difference between presence and preparedness, the “permission slip” moment that defines great leadership, and why the loudest person in the room isn’t always the one in charge. Along the way, Rebecca reflects on breaking barriers in a male-dominated industry, how she earns trust from personalities like Zlatan Ibrahimović, and the teachable habit she uses to keep her co-hosts focused on live TV.  The Return of Coach Lasso – NBC Sports, 2014, YouTube Nessun Dorma, Rome 1990 – Luciano Pavarotti, 1990, YouTube Double Standards for Competence – Martha Foschi, 2000, Annual Review of Sociology "Executive Presence" Is Overrated – Adam Grant & Brené Brown, 2025, Instagram Entrepreneur Passion and Preparedness in Business Plan Presentations – Xiao-Ping Chen, 2009, Academy of Management Journal Beyond Nine to Five – Lieke ten Brummelhuis, 2017, Academy of Management Discoveries Building atomic habits with James Clear –  Adam Grant (Host), July 21, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant Can Your Employees Really Speak Freely? – James Detert, 2016, Harvard Business Review Trailblazing Motivation and Marginalized Group Members – Karren Knowlton, 2025, Organization Science Bullet Time Effect in "Sherlock" the BBC TV Series – Moffat & Gattiss, January 14,  2014, BBC/YouTube Conversational Style – Deborah Tannen, 2005, Oxford University Press Who Won't Shut Up in Meetings? – Adam Grant, 2021, The Washington Post Dare to Lead read-along workbook (Permission Slips) – Brené Brown, 2021, Brené Brown, LLC Tell Me What I Did Wrong – Stacey Finkelstein, 2012, Journal of Consumer Research Emotional Contagion – Elaine Hatfield, 1993, Current Directions in Psychological Science Huge If True – Cleo Abram, YouTube Range – David Epstein, 2019, Riverhead Books The science of performing under pressure with Sian Beilock – Adam Grant (Host), March 28, 2023, ReThinking with Adam Grant (“Twisties” discussion at 8:50)  Hidden Potential – Adam Grant, 2023, Viking What Being Sober Has Meant to Me – Brené Brown, 2019, brenebrown.com The Gifts of Imperfection – Brené Brown, 2010, Hazelden Publishing Positive Conceptions of Perfectionism – Joachim Stoeber, 2006, Personality and Social Psychology Review The Queen Bee Phenomenon – Belle Derks, 2016, The Leadership Quarterly Some Effects of Proportions on Group Life: Skewed Sex Ratios and Responses to Token Women – Rosabeth Moss Kanter, 1977, American Journal of Sociology Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex – Kimberlé Crenshaw, 1989, University of Chicago Legal Forum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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according to consumer advocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the U.S. in Canada, with claims paid back in as a little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com slash save right now for your free quote. That's fetchpet.com slash save. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop, a show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. Hey, Adam. Hey, Renee. I got to tell you, my sisters and I are losing our minds about our guest today. I wasn't even sure if you were going to show up. Were you going to be speechless? No, I came. I am prepared and I am excited. Let's go. I'm going to try not to lose my mind,

y'all, because in the curiosity shop with us, sitting next to the cash register on the bar in the shop is Rebecca Lowe. Here's what my sisters and I have come up with is the bio. The most praised person on the most watched soccer broadcast in American history, the 2026 World Cup final drew 38.9 million viewers on Fox with the peak of 51.7, the most watched soccer telecast in U.S. history, and you fronted that sucker. You have hosted NBC's Premier League coverage every season since 2013, seven consecutive Olympics as NBC's daytime host. You have a sports Emmy, which we can see because she's a badass from her Paris, 2024 coverage.

She's a drama graduate who is going to be an actress. She played, is this true? You played one season of high school soccer or football? I mean, I mean, it's not, it's half a season and pretty terribly, but yeah, carry on. And my sisters and I were obsessed with the way she covered the World Cup. So we have Rebecca Lowe with us on The Curiosity Shop, and I'm losing my mind, Adam. Rightfully so. I mean, Rebecca, before I knew you as face and voice of the Olympics, but now you've become the

face and voice of the World Cup. But even before that, I loved you when you did the bit with Ted Lassau. Yeah, Ted Lassau, that's a whole nother situation. Guys, thank you so much. That was, I'm clipping that introduction off and listening to that when I'm having a bad day because that was the most beautiful thing. Thank you so much. Can I just say what an honour is to be on this with you guys, truly?

We said just before we started recording that when the request came in, that went just right to the top of every request I've had this week, so far above every other requests as well. So thank you for having me. I want to know who we beat. Yeah. Of course you need. Don't tell us.

Email us later. Don't get competitive. Yeah. Okay. I want to start back with, did you fall in love with football as going to Crystal Palliscape? Where did this start? Yeah. That's it.

Brenny, that's it. We can date it back to September-ish of 1980. And my dad, I guess he had two tickets and somebody couldn't go to a game. And you don't take nine-year-old girls in the 80s to football in England. Like that was not a thing, but there was no one else to go. Actually, he can't remember this me going. So therefore he can't remember why he thought asking me was a good idea. My brother was obviously busy.

All of my dad's friends were clearly busy. And he must have just looked at me and gone, yep, that's fine, you'll do. come on, let's go. My parents got divorced around that time, and I just wonder whether maybe he thought, you know, this could be a little bonding thing, like a one-off. Like, I don't for one second think my dad thought this would be something that we would then spend the next four decades doing together. But I went to that game, and I remember it a little bit. I don't remember it too much. And then six months later, it was the World Cup of 1990, which was in Italy. And England had a really good team. and we got to the semifinals,

and there was a lot of drama around the team, and things happened, and it caught the imagination more than ever of the country. And because I'd just been introduced to football through my dad, taking me to that game, and then that Crystal Palace had quite a good few months, I just, that was it. I fell in love with Pavarotti singing Nessendorma,

which was the soundtrack to that World Cup in 1990, which still gives me chills. I know, I know, it still does. Sometimes I just put that thing on in the car, and I whack it up, and I just go back to being nine years old. And that was it. It got into my system.

And it became very normal for me to love football, which, again, for a nine, 10-year-old in the 80s, early 90s, that wasn't normal. But for me, it's always felt normal. What did, I know you don't remember the game very well, but what did going into that World Cup, what are the emotion words? This is going to be Adam's favorite part, FYI.

What are the emotion? words that come up for you when you think about football. Yeah. I mean, it's, God, it gives me chills just even thinking about that. What a great question. Belonging, I think is one that's probably not an emotion. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

It's a human experience that elizabeth's huge emotion, yes. So, yeah, belonging, community, a pure joy that you don't find, or I haven't yet found anywhere else, a release, I think, a real release, which happens when you score a goal, and a bonding. I mean, I think those are the, those when I look at it now and I think about it now, being a part of a fan experience following a team like Crystal Palace or following a country like England, it felt very much like being a part of something. And I think that is what I love so much. That mutual experience of all wanted. the same thing and all hoping to get it, very rarely getting it. But when you do get it,

when the goal goes in or the game is won, oh my goodness, again, a mutual feeling of joy, which you just don't get anywhere else, guys. Well, Rebecca, to that last point, I'm struck by how positive these emotions are. Are you sure you're British? Well, when I said you don't get it very often, Adam, I will just return to that because as a Crystal Palace fan, you definitely don't get it very often. We actually had no trophies for 160-odd years. And then a year ago, we won the FA Cup, which goes down as top three days of my life. And that was a long wait. And England are still, I'm still waiting. You know, they won the World Cup in 66. I was born in 80. So I'm still waiting. I thought this summer would be it. But yeah, but I think as they say,

it's the hope that kills you. We just keep coming back. Don't we? We keep coming back to, and it's not just football. For me, it's football because that's England and that's in our blood and that's like a religion over there and that's kind of, that's how you grow up in England. But for lots of people, it's every kind of sport. And that's what keeps us coming back is the hope, but it's also the hope that keeps killing us time and time again, but we never learn. I think God, we never learn. Okay. Take take me to the University of East Anglia. Okay. You are, you're going to, was your mom an actor? Yeah. So my mom was an actress growing, so when I grew up, she gave up acting in my early years because she had myself and my brother and she turned to teaching drama. So she was an

actress through the 70s and 80s, or early 80s. And my dad was a news anchor for the BBC for 37 years. That was what he was a news reporter and then a news reader, as we call them in the UK. So two very creative, interesting, dynamic careers to follow. And I can never, I can't remember not wanting to be an actress. That was always the dream. The problem was my dad was educated at Oxford University, highly intelligent, way more intelligent than I, and he had great hopes that I would follow in his footsteps and go to Oxford. And he wasn't overly keen about me being an actress. My mom wasn't overly keen about me being an actress, actually, I don't think either, just because she knew the business. And it was going to be a hell of a climb. Yes, exactly, Brenner. Your face

says everything, like knocking on doors, getting rejected. all of the things. And so I was like, no, you know, as a young person, no, you're both wrong. I'm going to do it. I'm going to be the one that succeeds. And the deal with my dad was, I won't go to drama school. So a bit like Juilliard in New York, there's lots of drama schools in London. That's where I really wanted to go after high school. But dad was like, uh-uh, you need to get a degree. And I said, well, I don't want to go to Oxford because they don't do drama as a degree. And he said, right, well, the compromise is you can't go to drama school, but you go to university and you can go and do drama at university. And and find a good... Could you go to Cambridge, maybe? No, I don't... I just want to go and do drama, because Cambridge also does not have drama. So I went to University of East Anglia,

and I have to be honest, other than the group of the handful of friends that I made, that of course I'm still deeply friends with now, it was a means to an end. It wasn't... I didn't love it. I wasn't... I'm not...

I just wanted to get going. I wanted to get going. I wanted to get out there and start auditioning and try and just be this actress that I thought I could be. So I didn't love having £40 a week in my pocket to live off And I didn't love living in a horrible dirty You know, you just, that's colleague

And some people love that And I'm not a big drinker, I'm not a big party Like it just wasn't me So as soon as I could get out, I was out I just want to know how you stumbled into the broadcasting opportunity Well, it is a weird story So in the final year of college, I sort of partnered up with a girl called Lucy

and she was way more talented than me, but we were a bit of a double act. And in the UK, I would describe us as maybe like a French and Saunders, which is a very famous, yeah, okay. So Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders. I mean, let me just say, we were nowhere near Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders, but that's what we sort of wanted to be,

a kind of a double act, not stand-up comedians, but that would just kind of act together in different, you know, skit shows and things like that. Amy and Tina. But she was a year, yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. But she's a year younger than me. So the plan was that I would graduate.

She would follow me a year later. And while I was one year out of college and she was finishing, I would find us an agent. It would all be fine. And by the time she graduated, we would launch ourselves onto the scene and become super fat. Yeah, that's how you think we're 20. Well, the irony is that Lucy went to a back in the day in 2002, they had record stores. Okay, so she went to a record store to buy a CD. People listening are like, what?

and she went up to the counter to buy a CD on this day towards the end of my final year and she saw a flyer at the front desk and the BBC was searching for a number of different talents. It was called BBC Talent search for various things, whether it was a on-air meteorologist or a DJ for their BBC radio and it was ever a producer, loads of things. One of the things was a soccer reporter and we were sitting on the grass at a, college and I was almost graduated and the plan was still for us to launch ourselves. And she showed me it. And she said, look, there's a audition for a sitcom that I think we should go for, which we did and failed. But there's also a soccer reporter. Why don't you go for that? And I said, because I'm a woman.

And like, I don't think I'm going to, still in 2002, by the way, there was no, I didn't know very many girls who liked football. Yeah. And she says, yeah, but that might be, to be honest, that might be a good thing because we were just starting to enter a whole new world of like, who knows, maybe we can turn the tables a little bit. So I said, okay. So I applied for it. Long story short, I graduated, forgot all about it. A few months later, I got a letter. And I got to the next round. And I kept getting to the next round and the next round. And six months after I graduated, I won it. And it was a six-month contract as a reporter with the BBC on a couple of their flagship soccer shows. And I took the job. It was a six-month contract. I took the job thinking, well, that's fine. I'll just do it. It's really good money for six months.

months, great. So I'll do that. Save the money. And then when Lucy graduates, we'll do what we were always planning. But it was really good. And unfortunately, I had to say, Lucy, you remember, that thing you told me I should do and I've done and now I want to keep doing it. And I'm so sorry. But she was incredible and she totally understood. And that was it. I stayed at the BBC and it wasn't easy. I had some ups and downs and lost contracts and unemployed and back employed again and freelance. And then I got a contract and all of that. But that's how I got in. Wow. Wait, Rebecca, okay, I want to go back to you getting chosen. We're the same age. I remember, I mean, this world was completely dominated by men. On TV, on radio, sports were associated with men. And then, as unfortunately is still true now empirically, a woman would have had to have been so much better than all the men in the contest just to get considered fairly. What did you do that made you stand out? Gosh. I think I did a lot of homework before I went into the final.

She's such a baller. She's always prepared. Okay. That's kind of my thing, guys. I mean, I, any time you're unprepared, well, just for me, I feel terrified. No matter what I'm going into, but especially for a work thing. So I remember going in knowing I had, because I wasn't a trained journalist. And this was for a journalist. And I was, so I was sort of double nervous because I just thought, I am so far. behind everybody else and somehow I keep going through. But I did a lot of homework on who I was going to interview, which was the main host of the soccer show that eventually I would actually end up working with, funnily enough. And I knew about his background. And so I had two minutes to interview him. So I managed to do that. And I managed to ask him questions. I'm fairly certain nobody else asked him because I really delved into his background. And I could tell just by his facial

expressions. So I thought that went really well. Then I had to do a piece to camera. And the good thing with that was, I was so used to learning lines. So when they said to us, you're going to do a piece to camera for one minute about this pair of soccer boots that belonged to Michael Owen, a player for England at the time. I can't remember too much else about it, but I quickly wrote it, learned it real quick, and I managed to deliver it because I was so used to acting and delivering lines, I managed to deliver it without a stumble. So I think that, and I just think that, to be honest with you, I'm a very old soul. And I think at 21, which was the age I was in that final, I just don't think I came across as kind of young and flighty. I think I came across as kind of

deadly serious. And I've always been deadly serious about my direction in life, how hard I want to work, what I want to achieve. And I think maybe that, when I remember the other contestants that day, I remember feeling older than them. And they should, not that they should have been different. We were all similar ages, but in fact, some of them were older than me. But I just felt, I just knew that I could do it. And I just have always been, like I say, this old soul. And maybe that's what set me apart. I hear maturity, professionalism, pretty much anything except executive presence, Prunay.

No. I mean, I was just, I was like, this is, Rebecca, we have this thing where Adam and I both have this shared passion around. Do not confuse presence with preparedness. If you take your work seriously and you prepare, that is the presence that you need. You don't need any like bullshit, you know, acting and subordinating. You just need it's preparedness and seriousness. And while you are, it's interesting because when I watch you and the thing I talk about with my sisters a lot is you only have permission to be as fun as you are at that table when you are freaking prepared.

preparedness is the unlock to fun to going off script a little bit because you are ready. And it's boring sometimes, guys, doing that amount of preparation. It's not always fun. It's year after year I've done the same preparation for the show that I do at NBC, for the World Cup night after night. You know, there wasn't, and I don't, this is just what I, not everyone is the same, but this is just what I believe in very strongly. You know, there was never a second in my hotel room

where I didn't have a podcast on from a really good established soccer newspaper or radio show or whatever it was to just constantly feed me information. And sometimes you don't even know the information is going in, but it comes out later on the show. And so that all of that

and doing the same thing over and over again as I have done for years and years and years and years, I so, and also, like I said, I'm an old soul, and also incredibly boring. I'd never go out. I never go out for a drink. In fact, I stopped drinking before the World Cup.

I never drink when I work anyway. And I was like, right, you're giving up drinking for the World Cup. And then I also just don't, I'm just not a big socialization person with work colleagues. So I'm never a drink after work kind of person. And they take the Mickey out of me everywhere I work. Because, Rebecca, she never goes out. No, I don't. Because I'm preparing because the fear in my body of being on air and something happens.

And I can't fill that time, which is my job. You can't come back from that. So I would rather be so boring and so that when that light goes on, like you said, Brené, I am so ready no matter what happens. I've got notes and that's the other thing. I am not an iPad person.

I am, as you probably saw on my desk. We've got a lot of notes going on. We've got a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of stuff. But that makes me feel centered. And I owe that to my employer. I owe that to myself. And I owe that to the viewer.

In my opinion, you cannot be more prepared. It's not always fun. It's the kind of behind-the-scenes stuff. But without that, I mean, it makes me feel sick, the idea of going on air without that feeling of centeredness. I know what I'm doing. I've got everything I need. I've done it. And of course, we don't use it all. I mean, I can't ever use. I would say I probably use 80. It's not the point. It's not the point. It's not the point. It gives you that presence of mind. It gives you that safety net in your brain. And it's, I just think it's the right thing to do. Bray, I'm just dropping a note in later.

we got to talk about Xiaoping Chen's research on passion versus preparedness and also Nancy Rothbard's twist on workaholism, both of which are beautifully foreshadowed, Rebecca, by what you just said. Yeah, and I put a pin down that we need to talk about consistency over intensity. You don't have a job like yours because you have a big moment that you prepare for. You have the big moments because you prepare for your job every day like you do. And I mean, that's, you're badassery for those of us. who study it, is transparent. I understand what happens behind the scenes. Like, I can see it. Support for the show comes from Quince. Does it feel like August crept up on you? You were enjoying

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slash curiosity for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's QI-N-C-E.com slash curiosity for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash curiosity. Support for this show comes from O-Doo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing O-Doo.

It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try O-D-O-4-free at O-D-O-D-O-O-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. Hi, everybody, it's Megan Rapino.

I've been thinking a lot about this one question. I've been asked over and over. A question about the choices I've made, the colors of my hair, the things in the world I've spoken about, and the things that I haven't. I've heard this question asked so many different ways, but it always came down to, why are you like this? And as you know, there's no simple answer, because people are not simple. We're messy and complicated and contradictory and layered.

So on my new show, I'm sitting down with the ultimate disruptors, the athletes, the artists, the activists, and the architects of our culture who looked at the way things were and asked, why do we do it like this? And can we do it differently? My hope is to give us a little more space to that question. And to the person on the other side of the mic, not to tell us their answer or read from their script, but to take us on their journey. Check out my new show, Why Are You Like This on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Thursday. I want to take you to a moment before we tie this stuff to more research than Carter's got liver pills, as my grandmother would say. But I want to take you to a moment that I literally got so pissed off reading. I had to set my prep down and walk away. I had to play pickleball for two hours and then come back. I want to take you to the Arsenal Leeds tie in January 2012.

And I want you to walk us through that experience. Okay, so I was hosting the sideline desk in 2012, me plus two former professional soccer players for ESPN UK. So for a little while, not anymore, ESPN set up shop in England. So there was an ESPN UK and I had a four-year contract with them to mainly be a sideline reporter, which I did not like, not the story. But also to start to try and do more hosting because that's really what I wanted to do. So this was a game, Tieri Omri, ironically, who I just spent my summer with, had returned to Arsenal on loan from the New York Red Bulls. And this was his first game back. And it was the, I think, third or fourth round of the FA Cup, big game, 60,000 people, 2012.

So what's that? 14 years ago. ESPN UK decided to put my desk with my two ex-pros in front of the Leeds fans. And if anyone knows anything, or if they don't, let me explain. Leeds United, great, wonderful, storied English football club. The away fans, as always with a lot of clubs, very, very vocal, can be quite aggressive at times, not my favourite, and I've dealt with many, many. Individually, I'm sure they're all great.

As a group of 6,000, quite intimidating. And the desk was right slap bang in the middle of these fans, in front of these fans. and from virtually the first moment we went on air, the chanting started aimed at me, sometimes aimed at the two ex-pros next to me, but on the whole aimed at me. Various sexual chanting, things were thrown at me, there were coins, that were hot dogs thrown in my direction,

but mainly it was just about being a female, standing there doing her job, and all of these awful chanting that just would go on and on and on. pre-game was an hour, half-time, and then post-game. And my mum was sat at home, and she could hear it was coming through the microphones, because of course they're all right there. So she was texting me, are you okay?

A couple of other people in the industry texting, are you all right? We can hear everything. And I think the saddest thing for me, when I look back on it, guys, is that it washed over me as much as it. I mean, it wasn't the first time. This had all happened. I'd had this for years.

every ground I'd gone to there was always a chant or someone shouting out about me, my body, does she do this, does she do that? Or 6,000 of them all's chanting the same thing. While I've got an earpiece in, I'm on live television, I'm trying to do my job. But I think the saddest thing is,

when I came off air, one of the ex-pros, Robbie Savage, really lovely guy, he actually put out on Twitter that that wasn't okay tonight. What happened to Rebecca wasn't okay. That was it. That was it.

Nobody else said anything, did anything. I'll ever forget that he did that for me. But it didn't, again, it's hard for me to blame my bosses because it never crossed my mind ever to go to them afterwards because it was probably the most loudest why I'd ever experience and also other people were now seeing it. It never crossed my mind to go to them and say, hi, sorry, that's not okay.

I need some help. We need to think things through a bit better. Is there some security? Is there something we can do? Can we start a campaign? Is there something? But 2012, even though it feels like yes, It wasn't.

No. We once, no one was starting campaigns for women. It just wasn't a thing. And so I don't really, I don't really blame them for it. But I also never spoke up. And I suppose when I really think about why didn't I speak up is probably because I thought it would be futile. There wasn't anyone else talking about it.

And ultimately, I didn't want to be a problem. I didn't want to be the, because then they might not give me the next game. No, that's right. They might not give me the next. That's right. So I just took it. So I just took it. And one of the reasons why I left England was that whole toxic environment of English football,

which has definitely changed. Has definitely changed now, thank goodness. I don't know if it's fully changed, but it has got better because I've spoken to women who work in the industry. But that was pretty horrible. And now, thinking about it now, it's staggering to me that that was just 14 years ago. I'm first of all, so sorry that you had to go through that. I mean, it's just unacceptable. Full stop.

Secondly, when our colleagues Ethan Burris and Jim Dietert study this, they find that in order for people to speak up about a situation like that at work, it has to be both safe and worthwhile. That it's not enough to just take away the fear and say, hey, Rebecca, don't worry, nothing bad is going to happen to you if you raise a concern. You also have to believe that this is not an exercise in futility. And so for me, that is a failure of the leadership in the organization, that they didn't create a situation and a system and a culture where you knew who to go to,

you knew what to say, or ideally, right, where leaders were actually intervening before you even had to speak up. Yeah. And what's interesting, Adam, though, is I don't even think it bothered them. And not because they weren't great people, because they were great people. But I don't even think they even had a, there wasn't a system in place. There wasn't a person. It was just part of what happens at football to women? No, it's just what happens. It's just, it's like changing it would be like, what if we play without the ball? Correct. Yeah. Like it's that, you know, and I think it's interesting to bring up because I have to say that some of the allyship that I've experienced, and I talk about this with my husband a lot, some of the allyship that I've experienced, Adam, with you,

just because it's an interesting study, us together doing things, because we have similar jobs, similar academic positions. We talk about similar content and our experiences can be very different. And a lot of times I'm trying to analyze it. What could I do better? And you're like, basically, fuck that. There's nothing you can do better. We just did the exact same thing and what you're experiencing is gendered. And I'm like, you're right. I forget. You know, because it's just the way, it's the price of doing business sometimes. I think when you're a woman in an area where there are not a lot of women. Yeah. And it's, and I agree with you, Adam, about putting a system in place. But the problem is that putting a system in place requires people to even think that it could be an issue.

And I think that's really, do you know what I mean? Like there has to be some thought that. I mean, no, you're right, Brennan. I think now I'm thinking about this World Cup just gone where I was in amongst the fans. And I didn't have a single problem. And I do think, no, but I was in the States, don't forget. And America is different. Well, certainly from my experience, when I do fan fest,

There are 10,000 people there. I never have a single moment of a problem. When I was at the World Cup and I went out to the semifinals, not a problem, not a single comment, nothing. Now, it's partly because they were all obsessed with Latam and Tieri, and no one cared about me. But I do think that when I first arrived in America in 2013, I was like, wow, this is, this is much safer.

This is much safer. It's definitely a cultural thing. It's not an excuse. It's just definitely, it definitely was a cultural thing. Like I say, it has moved on. I do think things are better. I would know now, if I had her, had a problem this past summer. I know Fox would have had a person. I know who they are already,

the people that I could have gone to to make it both safe and worthwhile. And I feel already. Now, is that because I'm 45 and I'm established? I don't know how a 25-year-old would feel, which is what I was, or I was 30-odd, when this happened. I don't know about that. I know now I would feel much more safe speaking up. Definitely, definitely. But again, is that because I'm older? and maybe have more leverage, let's be honest. I don't know. And can we just take a break and say it's people like you who made it safer for younger women coming into the game right now?

You have to say that. You have to like, I hear Aaron our producer in the background going, yes, the father of daughters. Like it, when you're out front on something like this, it's pretty hard. That's the positive. You know, and I'm fine. I've dealt with all of that. and I am fine, but that makes me so happy that you say that, Brené, because it's very difficult for me to imagine 10-year-old girls out there watching.

I have a 10-year-old boy, and so in a funny way, it's actually just as good that he sees me as in it. But when I do have messages on Instagram or, and I do meet people and they say about their daughters, or I get videos sent of their daughters trying to impersonate me because it's completely normal to try to impersonate somebody who's being on television. It gives me, that for me is above everything else, because if they do want to do what I do, I think they're like you say,

I do think now they are in such a much safer environment to start to make their travels towards where they want to get to than I was. And then a lot of women in my generation, although there weren't many, were all those years ago. So if it had to have that, unfortunately, this is the world we live in, if it had to have that,

so that now we can have these 10-year-old girls and boys, understand that it's normal. Oh my gosh. I'm like, my work here is done. I can just, I can just ride off into that sunset because that is, that is immense for me. immense. That's, it's amazing. I mean, you're a trailblazer. No question. And I'm thinking about some work one of our former PhD students Karen Nolton did on trailblazing. She's now a UT Dallas professor Brunay. So not, not far from you. But she was looking at what motivates people to become trailblazers. And she found that it's not enough to just know that your group is facing low expectations. You also have to have a sense of belonging or identification with your group to say, like, hey, it's my job to represent

women, to open doors for future women. And I'm curious how much of that was a motivator for you. Do you know what? I'd be honest, Adam. I'm not sure that it was because there were just not many women around for us to be, and that we had a little group, but there was so few jobs in football, in England, 25 years ago, that it was difficult to be a sisterhood. We tried, but it was hard because, as we know, women are very, everybody is very competitive, but women are very competitive, especially in their only years when they're trying to get places. And I wouldn't say that it was very easy to kind of create a sisterhood that I could then try to represent. I felt like it was like I was trying to, I just felt alone.

I felt alone. The few women that were doing the job, kind of doing the job, were untouchable and unreachable, and they were probably protecting their jobs. They didn't want, you know, on the old occasion that I would be in the presence of somebody who had come before me, there wasn't a lot of warmth because, and I get it now, because I've seen it so many times. And they were just desperate that I wasn't going to take their job because there's only one job for a woman at this. particular let's say show. So if I'm suddenly preferred to them, they're out. And now where are they

going? Because there's only one job at all of these places for 25 years ago. The Trailblazer thing, I haven't really realized. I've just been, I've had to be so focused on trying to get somewhere against all the odds over the last 25 years that really it's only been since I came to America that I've thought, my gosh, there are actually, and there are girls now that I have met who are 20, who will say to me, I've been watching you since I'm. seven. First of all, I'm like, please, could we not with a math? I mean, that is just hideous. Absolutely hideous. But now they're 20. But I've had two or three just in the last week message me to say, they're now doing broadcast journalism at college and they want to be a sports broadcaster. And that's

because of me. I mean, so it's only really been when I felt safe, really safe in this country and really supported and seen as normal that I've realized that I'm a trailblazer. I suppose. is the answer to that. Because there just wasn't time before. There just wasn't time. She says reluctantly. I think you need to own it, Rebecca. I think we can take this moment to acknowledge,

you have arrived, you have made it. I mean, what an impact to have had, right? That people, that there are women now who have chosen different careers because of the work that you did. I know. I know. And I'm hoping, and I'm fairly certain,

just again from anecdotally, that even my little boy who's 10, like he's out there commentating on his own goals, He wants to be a soccer player but he said to me yesterday well maybe if after I've been a soccer player mum I could be like Tiarian's latin I could sit at the desk and be and I said

absolutely you could and so they are these and I'm seeing it through my son's eyes he is seeing the people that I've worked with this summer and he now wants to be them so those younger I mean it's just it honestly blows my mind that somebody could want to do

what I do because of me I'm so grateful and it honestly That is, again, like, what else could I possibly ask for? It's, I mean, it's just, yeah, it's incredible. I have, okay, I know we want to connect with some research. I have these questions because I have watched you and diagnosed your skill set through so many games now that I have to ask you some skills-based questions. Is that okay with you? Please.

I love it. And I don't know. It's like I did that thing. there was this great episode of Sherlock where they slowed down a scene to like just so I slow down the scenes when I watch you. Okay. And this

is for anyone who is alive. You don't have to be a broadcaster. You don't have to be in sports. You can lead meetings at work. You can be talking to your neighbor. What is the key to a good interruption? When you've got to interrupt people. Because like let's get, Aaron, let's put up a picture of the people

she was at the desk with when we show this. I mean, can you just Can you talk about your three co-hosts real quick? Just name them and talk about. Okay, yeah, real quick. So three, very different people, three absolutely gigantic personalities, the likes of which I don't think I've, gigantic, Brene, gigantic. I have worked with big, big names. I have never worked with three bigger personalities in three totally different ways, every single day for hours on end, plus travel, plus meetings, all the things. So once I kind of very quickly try to learn about the three of them. The interrupting thing is so interesting. I think you have to

use it as little as possible so that when you do it, it's a bit jarring because, you know, you aren't, in my opinion, my role is to make them look good. Therefore, I shouldn't need to interrupt them unless I think they can look better. So Zlatan, for example, will answer, sometimes occasionally, will answer a question with a really big statement. With a really big statement, And then I can sense that he's going, he's not building on that statement and he's going off somewhere. No, no, we need to build on that statement. That's when I'll jump in and say, but what do you mean? Or tell me more about that, something like that.

Okay, so it's, because he was first into TV, never done it before. So that's one thing. In television, you need time to interrupt because normally there is not enough time to do anything. I just think you have to use it as a tool very rarely and to keep them on track. and if they're a little fence sitting on something, you know, if they're a little, we're not grey area on sports TV. We've got to be black or we've got to be white.

Like, we've got to get to one or the other. So if Alexi would sort of, I mean, to be fair, Alexi probably wouldn't. But if Tieri would sort of slightly hedges bets on something, slightly be, well, I don't know. No, no, I need to know. No, I need to know. The question. I need to know the answer.

Yes or no. And sometimes it's not really an interruption thing, but something I use sometimes quite a lot is because I think it has a big impact. And it's kind of interruptee is, right, one word answer. Let's go down the line. Are they going to win? Yes or no. Yes, yes, no. Whatever it is. And it's bang, ban, van. And it gives the viewer like, whoa. And so it's not really an interruption. That's more of a kind of a jab, if you like, of television. I like to call it, like a bit of a punch. But in terms of interruptions, I try not to do it because I really want them to shine. It's not about. it really isn't about me. One of my biggest pet hates in television is when a host is, my opinion, makes it about them. I'm literally the traffic cop and those three are the stars. And I'm just directing them where to go so that their star can shine as bright as possible. So if I interrupt, I have to make sure it's only to make them even brighter. And then you ended up being the star. Okay, I have to roleplay this with you.

I know, I have to role play. Adam, let's just be, Adam and I, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to interrupt me and Adam and we're going to go on a tangent right now and you need to bring us back to the podcast. Go. Well, Brayne, so I was actually thinking while Rebecca was talking. She has brilliant skills for doing it in the moment, but I want to know what happens behind the scenes. And I was thinking about Deborah Tannen's research on high involvement versus high politeness cultures. You know this research, right? I do know this. But Rebecca, you have to interrupt. We're role playing here. Yeah, I'm waiting for the moment. You guys are too good. It's fine. This is

not a roleplay. I really want to make this point, too. But you should interrupt when you should. whenever you want to. But, Brene, what I was thinking about is I have had, when I'm on stage with somebody or doing a podcast with somebody who I know can be long-winded, I will actually tell them about that research up front and say, hey, some people see interruptions as rude. I've come to see them more as a sign of engagement that I'm so intrigued by what you just said that I have to jump in and ask a follow-up or give you something else to, and I was so curious about whether Rebecca ever does anything like that. And Brene, I wondered what you thought about that, too.

Brennan, do you agree? Okay, I can't because I just got the Rebecca finger. And I've studied her too much. I was purposely ignoring it. I was wanting her to do a bigger interruption. No, she doesn't have to. She can make those three guys fall to their knees when she goes like this. Yeah.

And it immediately forced me to turn the question to you. I couldn't keep talking. Oh my God, that's so funny, right? Just get that finger on, guys. Exactly. So that's me telling you, you need to wrap it up. We need to get to Brunet. And I don't know how you're going to finish, but I'm going to listen to the cadence of your voice. In the very second, I think you're done with the cadence of your voice, but also the words that you use in that sentence, I'm actually going to jump in and ask Bray whether she agrees. Because otherwise, I have to ask a whole question on what you've just said, which is completely unnecessary. It's not about me. It's about what Brunay thinks in that moment. So that's claimed of how I would do that. That's so funny. I've never even like addressed any of this. It's just. René, did that role play work for your purposes or do we need to do a different one? Oh, no. Like, no. I mean, Aaron is dying over here. Aaron's taking 75 pages of producer notes.

No, because what I saw was she waited until there was an organic pause. And then she went and she got the burstiness that she wants from the whatever that she called this. The punch. The punch. What do you think? And I'm like, but I got scared because I saw the finger. And you have to understand these guys. I thought they would start crying sometimes when they got the finger. No, not in a bad way, just to know like, yeah, our sister's calling it. Principal's office. That's so funny. Okay, let me ask you this. This is a weird question.

what's one thing that everyone, every leader running a meeting gets wrong that live television would fix in a heartbeat? Like, oh, length, length, length, length of talking. Stop talking. Stop, stop it. Enough. Like, people have no, it's true, Brene, like, stop. People have no concentration span. And I'm not just talking about Gen Z. I'm talking about nobody. Nobody's got it. And we all love the sound. of our voice, and we need in a meeting with leaders and whoever's leading that meeting, they need to imagine an internal timer. We need a quick introduction. We need to get to the speakers or the point or the slideshow or whatever it is. We need to do it quickly. We need to efficiently and television would fix that because I have no time for anything. I have to go to break in 10 seconds.

And in that 10 seconds, I have to find two really interesting things to say at the same time as trying to shut the Latin up because he's trying to take some way time going to break. And now I'm self-editing what I've got to say because I've now got four seconds because he's still talking over there and his microphones are. So this, the constraints of live television, I think, would fix all of those things. You have to be efficient with what you say. Okay. I have a follow-up. I love her. I just love her. This is so good. There's actually research on the value of putting a timer on display that people shorten their talk. And we've used it in some of our internal meetings because a bunch of us read the research and

said, fine. We're going to have a meeting. we're putting a two-minute countdown on the Zoom screen. Let's go. But there are some people who don't stick to the time, and they just keep bloviating. Oh, I know about those people. I mean, it's disproportionately men. What do you do when they don't take the cue?

What do you do that? You have a conversation after you put the finger up, you put the finger up. You have a conversation with them after that show ahead of the next one to say, guys, we have to stick to the time. You also, I often say to the producers, give me more times in my ear and give them more times. Because sometimes I get it. You're in the middle of a point and you don't hear them say 45, as in 45 seconds left, because you're still, you're thinking about what they're thinking about. I get it.

But if then very quickly you hear 30, oh, hang on, one of those is going to get through to that person. So more times the better. And yet it's hard to be given times in your ear. I get that. That's hard. But I would like, I ask for as many times as possible. I mean, if you could count me from three minutes or zero, I would take it for an interstate. of you or with a panel because I can then structure, self-structure the, you know, sometimes they don't give me any times in my ear and they just let us chat. Well, that's great if it's 10 minutes, but if it's three minutes, I have to self-structure the, the chat I'm having based on how much time I have left, based on who's done how much talking and who is owed some seconds, especially if somebody's gone for one minute out of three and I've still got the other two to go. Now, you would think, oh, that's just two minutes each. But then it becomes question, question, question. That's boring. I need question, question back to you, over to you, maybe a finish from you and a one line from you. That's what I want. So as much time as you could have given to you is really important. So I would say you need to have a conversation. You need to be strong and they need to get better because the taking the time for other people thing is not fair and it's not good and it's not what we should be doing. So yeah, interesting. All of that, very interesting.

Look, she's got the finger on the drink even. Okay, can I ask an Ashley and Barrett question? Please. Okay. Ready? And then we'll... Okay, hold on. If I don't ask, I'll get in so much trouble. Okay, let's turn it up.

Let's see how this is going to work. This is super like NBC Fox level tech. Incredible. Hi, Rebecca. This is Ashley, the older twin. It's so amazing to watch you on the desk for both the World Cup and the Premier League. And come on to A. Anyway, my question for you is, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make

when you switch from working with the Robbies and Tim to Tierra, Slatan, and Alexi. It's so fun to watch you with both. So I'm just wondering, like, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when changing, working with the personalities? Thanks for all the joy you brought me during the World Cup. Can't wait for the Prem to start. Ashley, first of all, hi, Ashley. How lovely are you? What a great question. The answer is a lot, a lot of different things. I'd never met Zlatan before. He'd never done television before. I had met Tieri before, but I'd never done television with him. And I had done television with Alexi, but 14 years ago with ESPN, and as we just discussed a minute ago, 14 years quite a long time ago. And I couldn't remember too much,

other than I knew he was quite efficient operator with the mechanisms of television. So I knew he would be my guy if we needed to get to break. I could go to him last and I knew that he'd finished pretty much. He wouldn't go over his time. The biggest differences are Tieri is absolutely set on talking about soccer, soccer and only soccer. He is not interested in whether a coach is being fired. He is not interested in whether a player and another player have had a fight in the dressing room. He ain't interested in the soap opera around the game. He's only interested in tactics and football.

And I get that. That's fine. And he's very cerebral when it comes to that. And he wanted to do a tactics breakdown every day because that gave him his first. fix. So I had to be careful what I asked him, because there were a number of times I would ask him a question, because I'm so used to it, about the narrative about, do you think how long has he got left in his job? For example, I didn't ask that, but for example, nope, not answering that, Rebecca. In fact, one day I said to him on air, and it was very early on, and this was a lesson.

I said to it. So Tieri, what's in your gut today? Who's going to win and why? Nope, I don't do predictions. I do analysis. He said that live on air. I was like, okay, and that's a slap on the back my wrist. So that was okay. No to selfie. He doesn't do predictions. Okay. So I then found ways of getting predictions. People love predictions from the other two and I'd always say to him, I'm not going to ask you, but I would like to know what the key is to today. So I still had to find a way of asking him. So you have to know what they're comfortable with. So I had to get to know them pretty quickly. With Zlatan, he'd never done television. So with Zlatan, I had to be very conscious of when I came to him because he would be getting the timings in his ear talking of

timings. We ain't listening to the timings. There's no charts he's listening to at times. First of all, he's Zlatan. He doesn't listen to timings. So I would always make sure, I would always make sure, timings listen to Zlatan. I would always make sure that I would go to Zlatan either first or second, but I couldn't often go to him third. And he knows this. I would say this to him, because it would be difficult for him to wrap up. And a couple of times, it just found out, it just became a situation where he was last. And I would have to really wrap him up. And he would just say, what are you doing, Rebecca? Are you trying to stop me talking? I mean, he would do things on TV that people don't do, you know, pull back the curtain. I'd be like,

yes, Slat-Anne, we've got to go to break now, or we've got the kickoff is about to happen, so we've got to stop talking here, Slatan. So it's learning their personalities, but also key for, because Robbie and Tim have done it for years. And they make my job very, very, very easy. I still have things with them that I have to just manage different things. But with these three, it was about learning their personalities off the air. So we would always go to the green room and watch the games. And there it's like, do you want a cup of tea? Can I get your cup of tea?

And can I get, should we have a chat? Or how did you feel that pregame went? Or as Zatan would sometimes come up to me and say, do you think that was good? And you would never think that from Zatan because he's Zatan. But from just him saying that to me, do you think that was good pregame? I knew, okay, he A wants to improve because he wants to be the best. And B, he is asking for feedback without asking for feedback. So I would like, right, okay, that's a green light for me to maybe be a little bit more involved with him, maybe give him a little bit more.

And we had a six-week period. And so I had to just not do everything the first week. It's too much the first week, but just slowly ease in, keep encouraging them, keep telling them they're doing a great job. Because everyone has egos. Of course they do. They're huge personalities. They're massive stars. And then with Alexi, it was making sure that he didn't feel like he was in the shadow of the other two because they were such big personalities.

And Alexi's personality off the air. guys is not the same personality as it is on the air. And he would probably admit that. I'm sure he would. People have talked about it. He's very quiet. He's very reserved off the air in the green room. So that's another thing. So it's personal attention. And you know, it's kind of man management is kind of what it is. Both on the air, learning their facial expressions, learning the cadence of their voices and when they're going to stop talking so I can jump in like we just did. But it's also off the air, man managing them as people, I think is my job as well. And in every commercial break, making sure they know exactly. what's happening in the next segment so that they're comfortable. Like we talked about, you have to be comfortable in live television.

It's scary. And live TV is scary, especially with the speed at which these sports shows go. So it's like quarterbacking, I suppose. I have a lot of roles. And with those three, it was just more intense. So maybe over the 13 years with Robbie, Robbie and Tim, I've done it. But this was Robbie, Robbie, and Tim condensed into six weeks to try and get us somewhere. Yeah, it was a lot.

It was a lot of off-camera, a lot, lot, lot. But they were just so responsive, so respectful, so wonderful. And what an honor, what an honor to sit alongside those three. I mean, loved it. Well, but also, if you look at the other side of that, what respect it shows on Zlatan's part early on that he's coming to you and wanting your feedback, right? That says he trusts you. He sees you as a credible source.

He wants to learn from you. He doesn't just want to learn. And... Yeah, that's true, Adam. Yeah. Sorry, carry on. No, no, no, go ahead. I just think that that really was a big deal for me, because I didn't know him from Adam.

I met him from Adam. I met him in the seminar. We had a seminar in March where I did a little panel with him and Tiari and Alexei as a kind of, it was for the Fox employees, but it was almost felt a bit like a dress rehearsal. But, you know, we had a few days of rehearsals. And this is a guy who has a very small inner circle.

He will say to me, Rebecca, I have a very small. and maybe you'll get in here by the end, but we'll see. He's brutal. The guy doesn't care. He can live his life the way he wants to live his life. He has earned that right. So to have him the very first day he did that, day two, I think it was, or maybe day three, to say to me, were you happy with that?

And it was a quiet little moment between us. I just thought that showed a humility that people don't give him the credit for because, yeah, he plays up to the camera and he has this huge persona. But I thought, wow, okay, so now I have the responsibility that he now trusts me. Okay, so now that's another responsibility. Now I have to make sure that that trust is reciprocated, and I absolutely help him every step of the way, because as much as people say,

as much as the impression he gave off was, oh, I'm so good at TV I've been here before. I knew, I knew that he wanted to be the best. So that was my job to try and make him the best. And I said to him, you, Zatatatan on day 1 and Zatan on day 39, the World Cup final, are going to be so different. And he was like, I know, I know.

I said, no, I promise you. And if you look back at him on day 1, one today. It was such a huge trajectory. He worked so hard at a lot of things. And we all, the producers did too. We all worked hard to make him the star that he absolutely was of that World Cup in my opinion. And it was, I mean, again, I get chills. What an honor. This guy is like, he's a mega star in my world, in the world. But in my world, he's a mega star. And to have him now as a friend, that's truly, that's truly something. Okay, I have to ask, because this is such a great moment to compare. Brene, what would you have said to Zlatan in that moment when he said,

were you happy with that? I think it would be so interesting to hear how each of us would approach that, all three of us. So, Rebecca, don't tell us what you said yet. Can we take a minute to reflect? And Rebecca, you also have the chance now. You had to respond in the moment. Now with the benefit of hindsight, how would you approach that? I think is fascinating. I don't think I know what I would have said until I got to this place in this podcast because what I'm hearing as someone who studied leadership for decades, you're a leader. You're leading a team. You're leading a high performance team. You're getting to know individual members of a high performance team. Their strengths are opportunities for growth. So I think I would have just resorted to my leadership work. And I would

have said, I really appreciate you asking, here's what I think we did well. Here's what I'm curious about. What do you think we did well? What do you think the opportunity for growth is? I think I would have just gone into kind of my leadership of performing teams. Adam, what would you have done? In a rate of reliability, I would have said a version of that. I think I would have gotten to the same thing with different language. But what I was thinking was, it's so interesting that you asked me that. Were you happy with it?

And then wait for the answer. And then say, okay, look, I've actually learned that are you happy with it is the wrong question. It doesn't matter whether it was good or not. The only question I want to consider is, how can we get better together? Let's talk about that. That's so interesting. So I didn't do either of those.

And I think both of those sound much better than what I did. What I did was in the context of the six weeks, it was day two. So what I did was just knowing him, because you guys obviously don't know him. So I have an advantage on that, right? So having known him for 10 days by that point, let's say, I thought he needed just a yes in the moment. I thought he needed a great. it was great. They were happy in my ear, the producers were happy, it was great.

At that moment, I think I picked out a moment that he did. I said, that I loved. So I picked out a moment, said, that bit, that was great. And we got a cup of coffee and he went, okay, great, we sat down. So for me in that moment, that was all I felt I needed to do. But I knew now the door is over. Yes. Because these ex-ex athletes can take a lot of criticism because they've been criticized

their whole life. I'm married to a former professional footballer and manager. And he's so good. terrible. He's so good at taking criticism and I've learned that with all the ex-pros I've worked with. They are so good at taking constructive feedback. Most human beings are not. But when you've had it your entire life like they have in their careers, they can do it. So I knew A, that he would be fine at that. But that B, this was a big deal to him. I could just tell from that one question that this World Cup is a big deal for him. So I just thought we're not

there yet. I'm going to have every day with this guy for six weeks. I don't think I need to go too deep right now. And he was getting a coffee. You know, he was. He was. He's He was kind of, it was a casual, do you think that was okay? He was quite casual. I thought, I thought, let's just not massage the ego, but let's just give him a boost, tell him it's great, and this was one thing I picked out. And then the doors opened. And then two days later, something happened on air.

And he said, what, what happened there? Was that okay? And that's when I said, well, yeah, but you know what? I think we should do? And I talked him through something. And so that was only because I knew I had six weeks with him, you know? And then I did more what you guys then talked about just that. Oh, you are so much more patient than I.

I'm so admired. You played the long game. But from a leadership perspective, we talk about this a lot with leaders that it's hard to armchair that question. I love that you asked it. It's hard to armchair it because we don't know the full context. But it sounded like in that moment, how we frame this with leaders is you got a permission slip. He handed you a permission slip. And the one thing you never do when you're handed a permission slip as a leader,

is use as an opportunity for coaching or feedback. The most important thing you can do when someone hands you a permission slip is accepted with grace. But you never in that moment go back with feedback. So it sounds like to me, he handed you a permission slip over. And they're usually handed in very informal moments.

Yes, that was it. We were making a coffee. That was exactly it. I have to, I know, this is really hard. I have to play the Barrett question because I will get killed by my sisters. Wait, before you do, can I just react to that really quickly? Yes, please.

I love the, thank you for the permission slip, for the permission slip. Commentary. I love the permission slip idea. That's such a great frame. I've never heard it. Where have you been hiding this from me? Well, no, because we teach it and dare to lead because a lot of times people will say, oh my God, I got a permission slip from a reluctant team member,

and then I gave them all the coaching and I haven't seen them since. Wow. Wow. Okay. So what I think is... Sorry, Adam. It's the vulnerability that someone is showing when they're giving up. That's it, right?

Because he was so vulnerable. If I'd gone back, he wasn't in a place yet. At day two, he was not in a place yet for me to go, but you know when you do this, I would do this or try this. He wasn't there yet. He just wanted to be safe and make sure everything was okay. And that's okay, right? That's exactly where I was going, which is he wasn't there yet, I think, in two ways.

One is your relationship was so new. But two, also he was a novice at that point. And there's a paper on this. I let Fishbach did this great work on how when somebody's a novice at a task, they crave praise because they're looking for validation that they don't suck and they should keep trying. And then as they move up the competence ladder, they don't need as much of the reassurance. And at that point, they want to know, just tell me how I can improve. And you read that perfectly.

Yeah, it was beautiful. That's leadership. And also, I'm also aware that we've got you beyond the 30 minutes. to 35 minutes. I don't care. Are you sure? 100%. She would give me the finger.

Not that finger, but this finger. Give me the finger if I need to give you the finger. No fingers in here, Brony Brown. No fingers. I will do Barrett's question. Then we'll go to Rapid Fire. Adam, does that sound good? Yeah.

And then in our post-game debrief, we can get into the research. Okay, let me play Barrett. These are twins. It's very hectic for me as the oldest sister if I don't get both of them. I'm sure. Okay. Okay.

Hi, Rebecca. This is Barrett. I'm the youngest sister. obviously they say for the best for last. Thank you for guiding us through the World Cup. You are so impressive on the desk and we're so grateful. My question for you is, your calm is so contagious, whether it's on the desk for the Premier League or the World Cup,

when your co-host get rowdy, how do you create the calm necessary to move forward? Thank you. Oh my gosh. Barrett, what a question. Do you know, I'm not sure 100% I know the answer to that. I think I, how do I create the car? I think I know that the alternative is panic.

And panic on live television is going to end my career and most other people's career. So I'm very aware of my responsibility as a host to be the vessel of calm, no matter what. Because I think that watching television, you, as a viewer, you need, we keep going back to sort of feeling safe in all different ways. But you need to feel comfortable. I personally think I'm not sure feeling uncomfortable watching television is a great experience unless you're watching the World Cup and there's actual footballers. That's different. But studio shows, the show that I do, it's comfortable but engaged.

Comfortable but engaged. It's so important to me to remain calm. It's so important because I think that the minute you don't, you lose everything. You lose your credibility. you lose your presence, your breath, everything. So I think it's a really difficult question to answer because I think it's more of a reflex action, actually. And the reflex action is, I think, stems from a responsibility

that this I feel is my show. I don't mean it's about me, but it's my show. It's my responsibility to get from A to B. They can be as chaotic as they want. But I have, I'm like the pilot of an airplane. You can be running around the plane as long as we take off and land. That's kind of how it. So I think it's a reflex action.

Okay, so can I share some feedback with you? Please. Okay, this was such a loaded question from Barrett because we've analyzed you on the desk because we teach calm as a leadership skill. You are amazing at this. So I will tell you specifically the behaviors I observe when the desk gets crazy. Yeah, please. Okay, you never match tone or speed of conversation when people get out of hand.

You go quieter and slower and they model what you're doing. You never, you, and it's what we try to teach leaders. Literally, I was going to ask Aaron to clip stuff for me that I can show when I teach leaders. Because when they get worked up, you do exactly what is difficult to teach people, but is a teachable skill where you will literally at the desk like this. So what I'm wondering, and then they match you in speed, loudness, and tone. So you use your entire presence as this calm barometer at the desk. You never match anxious, rambunctious energy.

And that's very hard because, anxiety is the most contagious affect in the whole ocean of affects. Calm is also contagious, but you deploy it so strategically. It's crazy to watch. Wow. No one has ever analyzed what I do ever. So to hear that back is kind of an out-of-body experience, and I didn't even, I'm not even 100% sure I knew I did that, consciously.

I don't know if I didn't know consciously I'm doing that. I just think I'm so aware that I have a responsibility. I can't get out of hand. I can't get out of hand. Because then where do we go? Then who's saving this shit? And also, I also think that maybe I'm now trying to reflect on why I do that. Maybe if I go up with speed, with volume, with rambunctiousness, again, the spotlight comes to me.

Because then I'm part of that. And I'm so, so, so. imploring people who do my job to not be a part of that because that's what they get paid to do. And if they want to be rambunctious, that can be great TV, no problem. But that's not what I'm paid to do. So I think maybe that is just so ingrained in my brain

as my overall work belief that I have the pilot not part of the show, that maybe that's why I do it. It's hard to know, but hearing you say that is so interesting to me. Now I'm going to be like, I'm going to be conscious of it in a few weeks. No, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. We like the unconscious confidence there. Okay. Okay. I am, I'm struck by how generalizable a skill that is, right? This is not just something you do in high voltage TV. This is something that's taught in conflict mediation training where the instinct is to mirror because you want to show the other person

you're with them. But just like Brunay was describing, you have to do the opposite. And what you have to show them is that an alternate way of engaging is possible. And all of a sudden, like, they're running into this very calm, peaceful force. And they realize that they're kind of flying off the handle and it feels inappropriate when the contrast is so stark. And you just do that so masterfully. Thank you, Adam. Thank you both. That is, wow, what a joy. Thank you for all of that. That is fascinating to hear and really, really lovely. Thank you. Is it weird that we watch film on you like footballers watch film on the pitch? You know what? It's never crossed my mind that somebody would be doing that.

But yet I've done that. I watch hosts with an eagle eye. Even now, of course now. I'm still trying to get better. But have always done. So I suppose, of course, no, it's not. I just can't believe people do that. To me, it's just crazy. There's a lot to learn. You are a game tape. You're a game tape. Okay, fast lightning round. I'm going to give the Rebecca finger. Okay. Feel free. one thing you're deeply curious about right now. Oh my gosh. The first thing that springs to mind is the kind of teenager my son's going to be.

He's 10. And we are heading into it. And I am so deeply curious which way we're going to go. Not that there are more than two ways. But like, I don't know. I just feel like is he going to be the teenager that certain other boys I've seen are or is he going to be like his half-brother who was a really like, he didn't really change. And I'm kind of really curious about that.

So fun to watch. So fun to learn. What a joy. Yeah. You're going to take your future teenager into the wildest, wackiest curiosity shop that you've ever seen. What are you putting in that shop? It can have anything in it. Oh, my goodness.

You can give us one item that it wouldn't be a curiosity shop without. one thing that would have to be in there. And does it have to be a real thing? Like, does it have to be, okay. So we, both my future teenager and I would definitely like a full explanation, a book maybe, maybe a slide show explanation about what the hell is out there in space. And when does it end? And why does it end?

And how does it end? Because nothing ever ends. And we talk about it a lot. and we would like the explanation, please, and I would like it in layman's terms, and I would like a full explanation, and I would like proof, and I would like all of that. Do you follow Cleo Abram? No, but now I should, right? Huge if true.

Follow immediately. Okay. Love it. Okay. Great. One thing you're deeply grateful for right now. Oh, my gosh. That is 100% my own health.

Just put myself in for a colonoscopy. Just thought I just dropped that in there because we've got to do these things. Right? Had a mammogram on Monday. That's it. Big girl panty time, folks. Right. Quite literally with a kioscopy. So we got that coming up. My husband is healthy. My son is healthy and happy and everyone is happy. And it's one of those, you know, and I recently had a friend of a friend who's diagnosed with breast cancer.

And again, and it happens so often, doesn't it? And again, I come back to gratitude of health. Gratitude of health. That's all I care about. We've got to get these things done. We've got to get our test done. Everybody out there, men and women. And we've just got to remain as healthy as we've possible. can because my goodness, it can all finish. So that is what I'm most grateful for right now. That's on our list every week. Okay, last one, Rebecca, I have to ask you this. So last week, Brene and I were talking about withdrawal and how we missed the World Cup intensely. So good news is the Women's World Cup is around the corner. What are you most excited about for that? I'm most excited for, I've just got an image in my head of this country again.

First of all, the US women's national team were really good. They are really good. So I'm very certain that they will go further than the men's national team. And so the love affair that this country has now with football is going to be a longer love affair and it's going to go further than even it was this summer with the US men. the manager of the US women's national team Emma Hayes is a Brit and she is off the charts. Good, I know, right? I mean, what a legend. So I feel like that is what I'm most excited for to compound the love affair that is happening right now with this sport.

We're going to do it again next summer in a beautiful setting in Brazil and ahead of the 2013 World Cup, Women's World Cup, which is in the United States. So I'm excited really for this trajectory that this sport that I've loved my whole life and is now on to simply continue and to let the girls have a go. Let's go. Rebecca, just thank you so much for saying yes. Thank you for doing a, I love it because I make up, I operate from the similar thing. It's either a hell yes or it's a no at this point. So thank you for making us a heck yes. Oh, I've got to tell you guys, at the moment, at the moment, you're the only hell yes I've done. So everyone else has been a no and you have come flying through. This has been such an honor, such a privilege. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed it so much.

I've never had questions like the ones you've asked me. And it's been so wonderful just to take a moment to reflect on everything that you've asked me about. And I'm just so grateful, thank you. We only got through a fraction of them. I know. We have like 30. Yeah, because it's just, you know, when you watch film, on a person who's as skilled as you are, there's a lot that we, but just know this. I will be showing

clips of you to teams of senior leaders about how to, how to calm shit down when the going gets hard. So thank you for what you do. And thank you for bringing so much joy and honesty to everything. Same. Thank you, guys. And also send my love to Ashley and Burrough. Thank you for their questions. Oh, my God, I'm never going to hear the end of it. They'll be wearing Rebecca Lowe T-shirts tomorrow. So, okay. I love it. Take care. Thanks, Adam.

Thank you. You too. Bye. Democratic Socialists keep winning primary races. In Michigan, Abdul al-Sayed, not in the DSA, but endorsed by them just won a fiercely fought Senate primary. President Trump appears worried enough about the DSA to have started conflating some things. I would be the greatest communist in history. I'd be ready to.

Free rent. For the rest of your life, what they don't say is that you'll be living in squalor in 12 months. The Trump administration has raised the specter of the far left in various ways during Trump's second term. But the recent arrest of an American communist in Spain, what year is it, at the request of the American government, is a more concrete step. Coming up on today, Explain from Vox, real communist threat or new red scare. Today, explain drops every weekday. Hey, girl, it's Taffy. This week on Taffy Talks, we're talking.

talking about Nantucket banning influencers, the historic Randy Melville TikTok fallout of 2026, and RFK Jr.'s hot summer diet tips. Guess what? It involves raccoon genitals. Yay! If you're not already following the show, find us everywhere at Teffi Talks. But RFK, don't come looking for me. Subscribe on YouTube and all the podcast platforms and Instagram and TikTok so you can share with your other work bestie. Be honest, is it RFK Jr. What did you think about my girl, Rebecca Lowe?

Oh my gosh, what a rock star. So good. So good. So thoughtful. So insightful. I mean, we always admire star performers. And then the open question is, can they talk about what they do? And she's as good at analyzing what she does as she is at doing it.

That's not fair. It's not fair. And what's really, it's interesting because I think this would maybe, maybe there is a study that you know about that you can tell all of us about. But sometimes I think that those of us who had a circuitous path picked up things along the way, very specific skill sets and mindsets, that we don't even understand underlie our success at what we're doing now. Like for me, for example, bartending. I'm not kidding you, for nine years. Like, I learned more about empathy and storytelling. bartending than I could ever learn in classes on empathic strategy.

You know, and then I think sometimes when I heard her talking, I was so excited to talk to you about it because she has a masterful skill set. Would you agree? I mean, strong agreement. I was thinking about David Epstein's book, Range just now when you were talking. Wow, interesting. Which is full of evidence on the value of taking those. detours and doing side quests and having either, you know, a second career or a hobby that's really

different from your job. Because you're right, there's so much learning and also confidence that comes from doing those things. Like, for me, performing as a magician is where I picked up some of the skills I use in the classroom and on stage. I didn't know that was going to be relevant, but how to deal with a heckler, like how to set up the element of surprise for an audience. That was huge. But I never would have told somebody to do it. I'm really, yes, and I'm thinking also, when I've had a hard time since we've known each other before, you've drawn a parallel between being a diver and getting the twisties. And like, and, and there was nothing that, it was probably anxiety for me, but when you describe the twisties,

that's how I felt emotionally or mentally. And so it's like, it's always surprising to me that the, the breadth of things we draw on that make us good at what we do and the danger of thinking when you think, talk about the book range, the danger of, you know, I even look at me growing up, I played seven sports and sucked it six and a half of them. You know what I mean? Like, but today I'm surrounded by parents who pick a sport for their three-year-old and then that's the only thing they can play. And then they've got club coaches that say, if you try to play anything else, you're off the team and it's just, I don't know, bartending, you know, the only job I ever got fired from was cleaning houses. I just want to tell you this, don't use pledge on the floor, even if it

makes it shinier because someone will break their tailbone and fire you. But I don't know, it's just the fact that she, you know, because she was studied drama, it gave her a leg up as a sports broadcaster because she could memorize direct-to-camera stuff. You know, like, I know. And I don't know. It's just interesting to me. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm interested by it. Oh, I think, I think it's, it's another reminder that, like, that success is a squiggly line, not a straight line. And we have so many people trying to track their kids, like, for the shortest path to success, as opposed to saying they need to accumulate a bunch of interesting experiences that will teach them unexpected skills. And that's the only way they're

going to approach the thing that everybody's doing one way, a different way. God, really love that. Okay, what's one thing you learned from Rebecca that surprised you? Okay, so the first thing is, when we were talking about preparedness earlier, I was thinking about this great study by Xiaoping Chen and her colleagues, where they look at entrepreneurs doing pitches and they compare entrepreneurial passion versus entrepreneurial preparedness to ask who's going to get funded. And the finding is that preparedness beats passion,

that investors, they don't care whether, you're doing a song and dance, they don't care whether you're fired up. What they're looking for is what is actually the real cue of passion, not the enthusiasm you show, but whether you've done your homework, you know your numbers, you've figured out all the different parameters that might affect whether your idea is going to work or not. You premortemed yourself essentially. And I was just thinking, I was thinking of Rebecca, like her preparedness is where the passion comes through. I think that's so beautiful. You know how I feel about preparedness.

I don't ever have to be, nor am I ever the smartest person in the room, but I am definitely in the running for the most prepared person in the room 99% of the time. And I don't prepare out of fear. I prepare out of respect and love for myself and the other people in the room. But I am such a fan of preparedness that that research. Because here's a thing, even with students, because I do all group projects, so if I have a group of MBA students presenting, I love an enthusiastic, I love an enthusiastic presentation. You're going to get a really bad grade if your preparedness doesn't match it. If you've got a

really prepared piece for me in the class, and it doesn't have a lot of entertainment value, you're going to get a good grade. as it should be. Nicely done. I'll go to the movies to get, you know, I'll go see the Odyssey for entertainment. I need you to be able to answer all my questions and I demonstrate anticipatory thinking and care. Same. Okay.

Okay. Second piece of research. So my colleague Nancy Rothbard studied workaholism. And I think in the traditional workaholism literature, there was the common finding that, you know, it's basically a risk factor for stress, for, you know, burnout, for all. also physical health problems. And Nancy said, not so fast. Not so fast. Because there's a difference between being a compulsive workaholic,

who works all the time because you feel pressure and guilt and anxiety and shame if you're not working. And an engaged workaholic where you love what you do or you care about what you do. And she sure enough found that only compulsive workaholics experienced the cost, not the engaged ones. And I felt like Rebecca was narrating her life is engaged workaholism. Like not socializing, not going out. She loves soccer. She cares deeply about her job. She wants to do the best job she can't. And I related to that personally. I imagine you do too, but I was curious to hear your take. Okay. So I love this. You know, as a grounded theory researcher and someone that leans heavily into linguistics, I don't like that we're adding adjectives to workaholism to say whether it's good or bad because as also a sober person for 30 years, I just don't think we should, I think we should change the construct when it moves from an addiction.

based issue to something else. So I think, I wish their research said, there's workaholism that's driven by not enough worthiness, fear, shame, those kind of things. And then there's this new construct called this, which can appear similarly to, you know, in a similar way, but is actually motivated. That's why I was very careful when I talked about, I prepare not out of fear or shame or not enoughness. Because there had been times in my life where I was there. And I was there, but I prepare out of a love of mastery and respect for people's time. So I agree with the research and the finding. I think the labeling of constructs is super important. And I take issue there a little bit. Interesting. So you would, you would prefer to, you see the dynamic, but you would

prefer to call it something like just compulsion versus engagement. Yeah, it's just like saying there's, to me, the way I write about, I've written about this before. is we don't say there's starvation and healthy starvation. Right. The construct on its own. No adjective can change emotionally are tied to the word. Or I think when you get into the addiction literature, work is just one of many substances we use to do the same kind of thing. That makes perfect sense.

You know what's so interesting about that is in changing the emotional tone and clarifying the meaning, we lose the paradox. which you normally love. Like engaged workaholic is a paradox. Yeah, I just, I just think for me, the construct is bankrupt. Yeah, understood. I just think that, like, for example, exercise addiction, but good exercise addiction. No, no, no. Let's call it something else.

Like, you know, I don't. And it could be my recovery perspective, so I don't know. No, I like your perspective. And I think what it's, okay, I have a better analogy now. What you're looking for is, okay, we have stress. We're not going to start talking about good stress. We're going to name a different term, you stress. You stress.

That's what you're looking for. And here's another one that I like. And I would privilege the construct emotional resonance over the paradox, which I love. Perfectionism versus healthy striving. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I've never liked in that literature, perfectionistic concerns, versus perfectionistic strivings. Right. No, no. One is perfectionism. That's maladaptive. The other is the pursuit of excellence.

That's adaptive. That's adaptive. That's adaptive. Right. So I think it is, I think you just named the fulcrum word for me, adaptive versus maladaptive. And I think adding adjectives to maladaptive terms. It's muddying. It's muddying.

That's all. Yep. Yeah. I think that's really good. I like it. Okay. I have a joke for you. It's my, I had to get in on the sister game.

Oh, I love it. Because your sisters participated, and when we were talking about interruptions, I was reminded of my sister's favorite joke. Tell me if you've heard this one. Okay. You're ready? I'm so scared. Knock, knock.

Who's there? Interrupting cow. Interrupting cow who. Moo, moo, moo, moo. It's worse than I thought. Yeah, it is. Is it? Yeah.

Do I? Oh, my God. Yeah, Aaron, our producer, is saying, and how old is Parker? 12, yeah. Aaron told Parker that last night. Okay, that is funny. It was as bad as I thought. Yeah, I thought so.

It's really good, though. It should stay in here. Just, yeah, the Grant family jokes keep them coming. Ashley and Barrett would have just killed me had I not include their questions. Okay, I'll see you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bruné Brown Education and Research Group and granted productions.

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